So, I am new here, but I've been lurking on the site now since sometime in September. I would appreciate any advice that you have to offer.

My wife and I had our 2nd anniversary in July. I found out after labor day that she had rekindled a relationship with an ex-boyfriend. I am 8 years older than her and he is 9 years older than me. I was absolutely devastated. This creep first started buying her expensive gifts when he was 34 and she was 17, in high school. Supposedly, he's rich (his parents handed him a restaurant), and apparently she sees nothing wrong with the fact that a 34 year old would "date" a 17 year old. And as it turns out, she's apparently never completely cut communication with him.

I have been working in another state since the spring with the idea that we would see each other on weekends, either down here or at home. We had done long distance while dating and didn't think it would be a problem. Boy were we (was I) wrong.

I have been doing a poor Plan A since finding out in September, but the distance has certainly complicated matters.

She did all the usual tricks that I have seen described here. Asking for space and little to no contact. We have a separation agreement. She was supposed to have ended things in November while we gave each other space until Thanksgiving. Of course, she did not. I confronted her with evidence and then she promised to end things again. Supposedly, that happened last week, but I have no idea what the email said to him and I am dubious to say the least that contact has ceased.

Anyways, I am moving back home permanently next weekend. I have been biding my time and picking my battles with her. She remains firmly in the fog and in her mind, most of this is my fault because I drove her to it, as far as I can tell.

She went to see the MC on her own this week, but apparently did not even mention the other relationship.

I am running out of steam for this Plan A. I know I haven't exposed enough yet, but am scared to do it with her family don't know if I should confront the OM at his place of business (public place).

This week, based on more trickled out truth, I have been able to put together that she has been having a full blown affair for 6 months of our second year of marriage.

I love her and she loves me, and that makes it hurt even more. I don't know if I'll be able to move passed everything that's happened or if I even should. We're both young enough that, even though it would be an absolute shame, I am starting to wonder if starting fresh would just be better for both of us.

I love her so much, but feel I have no idea who she really is.

Sorry for the disjointed, rambling story, I know its nothing new here, but I could use any help that I can get.

Thanks.

WorstYear,

I am running out of steam for this Plan A. I know I haven't exposed enough yet, but am scared to do it with her family don't know if I should confront the OM at his place of business (public place).

First find out ALL of his contacts to the extent possible, facebook, linkedin, his church, his family,ex-wives, current wives/girlfriends, his professional associations. Email/contact as many as possible. This is your saturation bombing of OMs life.

Do this suddenly, quickly and completely, without warning or threats, do not tell anyone especially OM and your WW.

Then confront OM! Place posters of OM on telephone poles around his business.

Exposure of your WW can be next you already know who her people are.

God Bless
Gamma

Why in the world would you even want to try and reconcile with someone like this? She's obviously not marriage material, and she certainly has no respect for you.

Two years in, no kids, and while you haven't disclosed this, I would imagine no real financial ties.

If it were me, I'd run like hell to the nearest lawyer and get yourself out of this now. It'll hurt, but not near as much as it will later when she does this again. And she will.

You deserve better than this. I would finish this, then go find what you do deserve.

Sorry you have cause to be here.

Thank you, Viper. It does hurt, but I've been thinking more about that path lately.

Is OM married?

When are you going to expose?

When are you moving back home?

OM never married.

Conflicted on that, esp. if I am second guessing R all together.

Next Friday.

Have you read the exposure thread?

Have you read this?
Start Here First-Welcome Aboard

I was convinced I wanted R and that we could be better than ever, but the trickle truth and the realization that he's been there all along in one way or another has me second guessing.

I feel like I can't make a decision about her until I'm back in the house and observing what's actually happening vs what little bit she says on the phone.

I think part of me feels the need to confront the avoidance so I feel like she faces the reality of what she did.

Yes, have read the exposure thread a number of times. I get it.

I feel like I would ruin her reputation in her very small hometown and I am not sure I can do it. An option is to just move on and both retain as much dignity as possible.

You are not helping her by concealing her adultery.

Have you seen this?
Conflict Avoidance is the Kiss of Death

WY,

As the infidel in my marriage, and seeing some of the comments you have received (e.g., Viper's ever-so-generous "It'll hurt, but not near as much as it will later when she does this again. And she will."), I thought I would try to expand on some of the feelings you may or may not experience.

*I am firmly in the camp of "There is always hope and your marriage can survive and even thrive after infidelity." Even though yours is a young marriage, if you choose to stay and if your WW defogs and commits to making the marriage better than ever, the love you have for each other will grow and mature and be a beautiful thing to behold.

*That being said, yours is a young marriage and there may not be that many things tying you to this broken union. Recovery is a difficult road, with many ups and downs. If even just one of you is not committed to recovery, your relationship will likely limp along.

* Once betrayal is introduced in a marriage, there is no more blind trust in humanity. Certainly this has a proven basis with your current WW, and such a foundation would presumably be absent in any future relationship; however, the single act of dissolving your current marriage will not fix this loss of innocence. I am sorry for that, believe me.


I don't know if this helps, but those are my initial thoughts.

We call that enabling. And as Dr Harley would say, it is very hard to save a marriage when you are an enabler. There is no "dignity" in covering up an affair because you make yourself an accessory to the crime. You harm you wife by keeping her secret.

I think she ruined her reputation not you.

That is very helpful, thank you.

I do still want to believe there is hope. Especially now that she says she's trying. Its just that we have two very different definitions of her trying.

I want to believe she is capable of maturing past all this crap, but past behavior is no indicator of that possibility.

She wants the good feelings to "wash over her", and have a strong gut feeling of the right thing to do. I think that is very unrealistic, but I can hardly tell her anything right now. Also, she has an accomplice of a best friend who has known the whole time. She came back into our lives earlier this year and started convincing my wife of how much happier she used to be before me and how she didn't understand what happened to me. I had been so much fun in the past. The girl has always been jealous of my wife's progress in life and really drags her down.

I think that part of this is her having a quarter life crisis and that her best friend was somewhat of a catalyst. Even still, I hold my wife responsible for her actions. I'm just not sure she does yet.

I am going home this afternoon and it will likely be one more weekend of conflict avoidance (not idea, I know). I am not walking on eggshells anymore, but definitely still picking battles until next weekend when I am again a permanent fixture in the house.

So, wrt the reputation thing...

She is an educator and well known individual in a very small, close nit town. OM is in the next larger town over. I have far less reservations about exposing him for all the world to see, but again I won't be home permanently until next week.

It would be so easy, with just one whisper, for the truth to circulate all over. I truly believe that it would ruin her, up to and including losing her teaching job.

Maybe she deserves all that and more, but I am not sure I want to be the one who delivers that "justice" and here's why:

My concern is that if we were to truly R, then she would never be able to hold her head up in public again. Its not that I wouldn't mind moving to another state, away from her enabling parents and best friend, and this guy, but I think that's an awful lot to expect from someone all at once.

I am considering what level of family exposure to go with, minimally telling her parents, because they're obviously in the dark about some of this. However, I have serious reservations about public exposure of her for the reasons listed above.

Thoughts?

Also, any tips for this weekend home specifically, would be greatly appreciated.

Just because she's 25 doesn't make this a "quarter-life crisis".

A bit of a pattern I see here - treating her like a little kiddo. As long as that happens, she will never be held accountable.

She's old enough to be married, to be an educator, but not old enough to be 100% responsible for her actions. That's quite a sweet spot and some prime enabling.

Unless you are willing to hold her fully accountable and run this fool out of town, then you should consider divorce.

There are plenty of former waywards on these forums who were exposed and survived. They have the utmost respect from their peers both here and in their families and communities for putting things right. It's only the ones who continue to do wrong who are looked down on.

It's such a young marriage though, you don't have to do anything to recover. Just walk away.

However if you wanted to do her a favour, I'd expose. Though she is an adult now, she was targeted young and needs other people's help out of this. The man is clearly a predator and a loser and needs exposure on his side too.

Most former waywards are so grateful for the exposure because without it they would still be in that dark place.

Very interesting perspective. I disagree that there is nothing to recover because of the youth of the marriage. I didn't mention it, but we have been together for 5 years and I have known her and her family since she was 3 years old. I love her very much.

Back to doing her a favor though, can you propose a reasonable, hypothetical plan for exposure? Who do I tell, how, and when?

I like that you used the phrase "targeted young". That's exactly how I feel. I know men, because I am one. I do think he is a predator. I am so worried that she'll never be convinced of that, or if its even appropriate for me to try and convince her.

She has a very nice, traditional family. No one would ever suspect her of any of this stuff. I could see a possibility that her cousins, uncles and aunts would be supportive of trying to help her see the light, but then again, usually family circles the wagons.

I am willing to hold her completely responsible. I just fear that I am the only one. Her day of reckoning is coming, one way or the other.

Like I said, I will be a permanent fixture at home starting next weekend. I have some time off before starting a new job. I plan on putting everything out on the table, but don't have a plan formulated yet.

I want to write a letter summarizing everything. I don't know if I should read it to her, just the two of us, or in the company of the MC or what to do. She has a tendency to run away when things get tough (just like a child, like you said).

I fear that a Plan B is imminent, and that it will be particularly risky for us, since she intentionally surrounds herself with enablers.

I promise I have tried very hard not to be. I am very honest and direct with her, but that hasn't worked very well, because she just fact checks the things I tell her with the other enablers in her life (parents, best friend, OM).

She can't seem to do the math that she basically has only one friend. All of the other friends that used to be in her life are doing grown up things and having a blast. She wants to be around this best friend girl, who is way behind in the game of life (duis, drug charges, bartender, etc.).

The odds are really stacked against me. So, what type of confrontation with her should I be shooting for here? How do I make her really hear me?

That's their call. However they can't very well decide to help if they don't know so I would save the speculation and simply try them. Melody Lane has an excellent step by step exposure guide in her signature that I would follow to the letter.



Avoid MCs like the plague. The usual thing is they gang up with the WS on the BS discussing the marriage problems and not even addressing the affair. Since you have been so absent you don't want that. Nobody does, it does not help. There's nothing wrong with the marriage, more pressing than her affair - you don't need an additional person discussing it. There's already too many people in your marriage!




For men, Plan A lasts six months.



We can't make people do anything. Just as we have free will and preferences we have to allow others to have free will to the point that they are free to be idiots if they want.

We all make decisions based on consequences. So if she's happy to face the consequences of what she is doing, then that is a great decision for her. Obviously the worst thing you can then do is protect her from her own choice of consequences - like losing her reputation. Why would she stop making messes if you clean up?

She has to learn that good reputations don't grow on trees. She has to actually behave in a way people respect.

I'd expose as per the plan without saying a word to her. Let the exposure do the talking. When she gets all furious, don't react and tell her you won't enable bad choices and you will never lie for her.

WorstYear:

Exposure is not "reasonable" because affairs are not "reasonable".

The only "fair" in AFFAIR is the spelling...

You are in a war to save your marriage. Full exposure is your best weapon.

Your wife is ruining her OWN reputation by her actions. Keeping it a secret is enabling her, AND feeding the affair.

Regardless of if you chose to recover your marriage, full exposure is the ONLY loving thing you can do. She needs your help to break free of the addiction.

You cannot convince her that OM is a predator at this point. Don't talk about him... Tell her you will do whatever is necessary to save your marriage. Then change the subject.

Do not discuss exposure with her, or even mention it. She will be very upset about it. Just get it done, and be prepared for her to be angry. The angrier she is, the more you have "hit the target".

This is quibbling, as I see your point, but I disagree Cat. Exposure is the most reasonable thing I have ever done. Far more reasonable than lying to loved ones would have been.

Most people had an inkling anyway and were relieved of the burden of having to alert me to vague suspicions. Others, like his family, were merely glad of the chance to help and prevent losing me.

Like most deep dark secrets it only feels heavy when you try to hold it alone.

Amen to this! We only started healing once I did a true and very wide exposure. Exposure brings a great relief�we don't have to go forth with skeletons in our closet, and we no longer have to hide what we say around family and friends.

I have certainly felt better since coming clean with my family and friends about what's happened.

I realized that I have some really great friends. They wish that we could work things out, but support me first and foremost and have told me that I deserve better than this.

I hate how much time I spent beating myself up over my "control issues" that in her mind led her to do what she did. There has to be a turn around point in her understanding of what actually happened.

So, I will commit to you all that I will expose, with no warning. I understand there is no good time (other than ASAP) to do it, but I am going to wait until I am home for good next weekend.

Of course, this could make for an awful Christmas.

Thank you all. Please don't stop with the suggestions.

What about the accomplice best friend? I know better than trying to separate those two, but at some point I need to tell her how I feel about her, I think.

I'm no expert but I believe you could help expose this friend in your nuclear exposure (and you are going nuclear right?). Maybe not calling the friend out directly but certainly detailing that you know for a fact friends of your W aren't friends of your M.

who would I be telling this to?

does anyone have anything positive to say about MC?

also, more food for thought. in my state what he has done is illegalas it pertains to our marriage. I could consider going after him for damages for things like student loans that I have paid off etc. Any thoughts on this? Is it worth my time? This is of course if there is no R.

Have you seen this?
Beware of Bad Counselors

Are you talking about an alien of affection law?

yes and criminal conversation.

That's great.

Some states don't allow for the BS to go for damages from the WS or AP and so if you have that opportunity go for it.

Have you talked to your lawyer about this?

No, if you got it you would of done it.

She banging the OM ruined her reputation. You did not ruin anything.

And not exposing her will allow her to keep doing whatever she wants with no compensation to you or consequences to her.

This is not a piecemeal program. You must follow ALL OF THE PROGRAM or NONE OF THE PROGRAM!

IT WILL NOT WORK IF YOU DO NOT USE IT!

You need to start going CLANG instead of SQUISH.

Hey, I wanted to post an update.

My weekend back started rough, but ended pretty smoothly. This is a vast improvement over previous weekends.

I am returning home for good this weekend. I am seeing the MC on Thursday and she is seeing the MC on Friday. We are supposed to have a joint session after that.

I plan on interviewing the MC a bit on Thursday to see whether or not I feel continuing to see her will be useful. I plan on asking her about any success stories, and specifically how she feels about exposure.

RE: Exposure, I am getting more confident about it every day. I think it is necessary, as the plan here indicates. I am minimally waiting until I am back in the house this weekend, but to be honest (don't beat me up on this too much), I am considering getting through Christmas first.

I asked her mother if she knew what was going on and apparently both she and her father do. They were very nonchalant about it. I asked her dad for any advice and he said, "Well, son, she thinks you're going to really try and change. But, she'll need more time to decide what she really wants."

It was all I could do to keep it together. I told him there would certainly be evaluation on both sides and that change would be needed on both sides, he agreed to his credit, I suppose. They are major enablers (as I know I have been too).

I plan on casting a wider net in her family in terms of real exposure so I can hopefully find people that are willing to stick up for the marriage as well as for her, since her behavior is clearly very out of whack.

Supposedly, she is in NC for going on 3 weeks, but I have no evidence of that. I plan on asking if she's willing to prove it to me this weekend, by showing me her call records online. That should be interesting.

I thankfully read a thread here that told me I can save my breath on trying to tell her about what she's (been) doing and how wrong it is (was). There is no point in trying to reason with an addict. I definitely see the parallel there (alcoholism and some mental illness in my family).

She has been very communicative. Even more than last week, but I still think she is mostly going through the motions. There are moments that feel very real, she can be very sweet (always very needy).

I also listened to some excerpts from the radio show here on the value of exposure. I like the part of it speeding up what will ultimately happen anyway, in either direction.

If I am honest with myself, I have only been doing Plan A (with exposure only on my side) for 3 months. I didn't know I was even doing it at first, before finding this site. I need a serious personal recharge if I am going to deal with the fallout of exposure AND give it another 3 months before moving on to Plan B.

She has started expressing appreciation for the house, but not me of course. I look at her and think she doesn't even deserve to be there (bc she doesn't).

My hope and will are both low. I need to see action (either way) from her, but I probably won't until after the exposure.

So you will be moving back home?

You need to expose this and demand she ends her affair and writes a NC to OM.

What is your exposure plan?

Back home permanently, this weekend. Have been working a job in another state.

I am formulating the plan now.

I am thinking of meeting with extended family in person. As I said in my previous posts, I am very concerned about exposure to friends her age, including fb friends because given her position in the very small town as an educator, I really think it would have permanent, negative consequences on her job. That is honestly bad for both of us. The friends are young, small town females, and are very prone to gossip. The literally can't help it. It wouldn't be very long before all the parents of her students were giving her the stink eye. People here on mb don't seem to want to process this nuance of our situation, but I do think its legitimate. It wasn't (isn't) a workplace affair, and unfortunately, there is no way to separate community from workplace in this case. I am not going for a scarlet letter situation here, only to identify mature, adult advocates of our marriage, and her specifically.

So, I am wanting to approach her extended (but close) family. Aunts, uncles, cousins. I have a particular cousin in mind to start with. She's closer to my age, and very mature. I want to see her in person next week and see what she thinks of this whole thing. It will also be a chance for me to see how far and wide my ww has spread her campaign of misinformation.

She wrote an email to him, that she did not share with me. So, its possible that I will still demand an NC letter. Like I said, I want to see if she's willing to prove her claim of no contact for the last 3 weeks. I am sure she has deleted whatever email she sent him, but I'd like to know what she said there as well.

Listening for advice. Would appreciate more than just STICK TO THE PLAN in all caps, if possible. I understand, and want to, but trying to come up with my overall game plan now.

We have a game plan for you, the problem is you don't seem to want to follow it.

An NC letter should not be "possible", it should be MANDATORY! Same with exposure!

She really should have thought about her rep before she had an affair! Your marriage is bleeding out and YOU ARE WORRIED ABOUT THE STABBER'S REPUTATION?!

Hi karmasrose,

I don't know how many times I have to say I have read it, and I get it. I guess you're going to continue with the all caps thing anyway.

I said in my earlier post that I am getting more confident every day about exposure. I am getting myself geared up to do it. I am biding my time until this weekend, when I am home permanently. I also said that I am not willing to risk her losing her job.

Maybe let someone else comment now. You are repeating yourself.

Its funny that I don't hear Dr. Harley screaming STICK TO THE PLAN to his radio audience. He seems to listen to the individual situation and offer helpful advice as others here have done.

If her job is where she had her affair she must leave it.


Fine, I will bow out.

I agree that it will be better when you are home. That way you will be able to observe in person.

I was also not willing to risk my H losing his job�until 6 months later and I found out that we had been in a false recovery and then it became obvious to me that it was either our finances or our marriage that got blown.

I'm not saying that is your case wrstYear�I'm just pointing out that people here who are posting to you are sharing their own experience based on the very WORST thing that has ever happened to them in their lives.

Many of us minimized at the beginning until we simply couldn't rationalize any longer. People are just sharing with you in the hopes that IF that happens to be your sitch, that you can be saved a portion of the wasted time and heartache.

I can only imagine how tough this has been for you from long distance.

Thank you for that. Its very lonely, I can tell you that. Also, apologies if I was biting to Karmasrose, I mean no insult whatsoever.

I have committed to you all that I intend on exposure. I am thinking more and more everyday about that and how widespread it needs to be.

This fog has been very crippling to me. Its very much like dealing with two distinct people in one body. I have had all manner of negative thoughts throughout this ordeal. I'll put it this way, my liver has seen better days.

I feel like we are in false recovery now. I feel that she has the full confidence that I will do anything it take to save the marriage, but I no longer feel that way. A month ago, I did. But the continued lying and trickle truth has affected my will to continue. I keep reading about the fog and trying to accept that this is not the real her. However, the oblivious, hurtful comments and actions by her continue and it takes a toll.

I fully get the exposure concept, and I am admitting that I am intimidated by aspects of it. I am getting there though, day by day. Its possible that when I get all the way there, I'll be willing to shout it from the rooftops of the small town (yay, look how I couldn't keep my wife satisfied) in the hopes that it busts the fog after the fallout.

Another fear that I have is that going full nuclear with the exposure will only bring about more redneck, former high school "suitors" and give her more of the attention/validation that she apparently craves.

She can come off as confident, and cocky, but I know the real her. I don't think she likes herself very much. So, call me a sucker, but yeah I still do feel sorry for her. Its hard to watch someone you love so much make terrible life decisions.

We are both attractive people and we look great together. I am afraid that the carpet bombing approach will bring out more folks who would like to see us fail rather than succeed.

It was (or is?) not a job related affair.

Thank you, and I am sorry for biting at you. I hope you can understand.

I do want to execute the mb plan. I am still wrapping my mind around it. I never even post to forums and I have been in I/T for 12+ years. This is all very new to me.

I know you had to go through something terrible to even be here and I truly hope you are in a better place now. I wouldn't wish the feelings I have experienced this year on my worst enemy.

Exposure is the first step.
Blogging about your feelings isn't going to help. anything.
When Patton was moving his tanks, he just kept moving. You need to do the Same.

When can you expose?

You haven't been married that long. You might decide to pull the plug and just move on.

Her family isn't supporting your marriage. That has to be majorly deflating. What kind of family have you married into that they don't care if their married daughter behaves like a ho?

It's still the right thing to expose though. And you're not saying in exposure what a failure you are, rather that you need support in helping your wife break free of something immoral and wrong.

Exposure is empowering. You'll feel strong for having taken action. She will be incredibly mad and will threaten all kinds of stuff. Who cares? You either break her out of her affair and get a shot at a real marriage or you don't and you get to move on knowing you did everything you could.

Not sure why you're so concerned about her reputation when clearly, she is not.

Have you read this?
False Recovery-Need Voices of Experience

WorstYear:

The reason I am pushing you hard on exposure is because I resisted doing it when I first discovered my fWH's A. I had lots of good reasons why it wasn't a good idea "in our special situation", but the bottom line is that I was afraid.

I was afraid to look foolish for having a cheating husband (but when not exposing lead to five months of false recovery, how foolish did I look then?)

I was afraid that exposure might drive my then-WH further away. He had said he wanted to reconcile with me, but he really wanted me to get off his back so he could continue his A. So he already WAS just about gone.

I was afraid of his anger (which would have been ferocious, but short-lived, as I now know for sure that the Dolly would have dumped him faster than a hot potato.)

I didn't want him to lose his high-paying job. (In the end he got a very necessary transfer and now brings home less than half of his previous earnings... And we are fine.)

Your reasons may differ from mine, but the fact remains that full exposure is the best weapon you have to kill the A. And get some support for yourself (besides us anonymous posters!)

A full-on exposure remains the one thing I wish I had done differently in this whole discovery-recovery business. It was a costly choice, which enabled the A further, providing the conditions for a false recovery, from which I very nearly didn't recover.

So yeah, I am pushing you... To not make the mistake I did.

Another day, and I am even more geared up for exposure. I really appreciate the comments here.

Full on exposure does seem to make a lot of sense. I was imagining this morning what it would feel like to have exposed her actions to the light of day, whether or not we stayed together. It felt great. In one move, I could stop enabling her and welcome her to adult hood where your actions have consequences.

As far as when, all I can say is soon. I'll be home this weekend. Will probably get through Christmas day, but thinking I should expose before New Years. I can use the holiday time away from work to do some of the leg work and make sure to get face time with her family and the OM at his restaurant.

My SIL was my FWW's accomplice in her adultery. She has been totally cut from our lives. But that didn't happen overnight. Not until we started our actual R, did we come to a mutual agreement on this.

That story will take care of itself.

What do you think are your shortcomings as a husband? What would she say?

What can you do to become a better person and husband?

Do you have SAA?

I exposed. No regrets at all.

eta: We too tried the MC route. What we learned was is that they were a total waste of time...time that we did not have to lose. Once we got on board with MB's, we saw hope for really the first time.

This makes me very, very sad. My in-laws did not take a stand against their daughter's affair either. Basically, after exposure they 'supported' their daughter by 'being there for her' while paying no attention to their son-in-law's misery. I have very hurt feelings over this. I can't imagine having a son or daughter conduct this type of despicable behavior without making a stand against it.

As my dad used to say though..'we should be more surprised by justice in this world than not'

As time goes by both friends and foes will reveal themselves. It isn't always pretty. On the other hand, others will rise to the occasion which will make you love those even more.

WorstYear;

I am relieved that you are going for full exposure. Use your time between now and then to plan, and then you can do the exposure all at once. This is the most effective way.

For your plan, refer to the EXPOSURE 101 link at the bottom of MelodyLane's thread. (She posted to you earlier in your thread.)

DO NOT discuss this with your wife in advance.

You can do this...

Ditto here�my MIL was all "supportive" of me until I did a nuclear exposure. That day she called and asked me how I could do this to her lol. We haven't been spending much time with MIL these days.

And YES, the ones that you least expect seem to rise to the occasion and support both of you in ways that you never imagined!

I do not have SAA.

So immediately after I found out, there was much talk of how I was too controlling, too friendly with strangers in the bar, I was obviously never happy in the marriage, I was always let down by her, I made her feel stupid in arguments, I told her how to do things, I always try to fix things, I want to talk through issues too much, I tell her how she feels, I asked for sex sometimes, I put too much pressure on her by asking for a date night each week, I held her accountable too much for things she had already agreed to (e.g. a budget), worried too much about spending (paid off all her student loans in 2 years), etc. Even tho she said I was never mean spirited and only wanted the best for her and us, she would need me to change, but didn't think it was right to ask me to do that bc there would be plenty of women who would love me for all of the personality traits I have. I blamed myself for most of everything, save for the act of cheating itself. And further because I admitted that I had expected/suspected she would do it, I got what I asked for (she actually said this). I know now that this is all the fog talking, but boy does it hurt.

As a husband, I know that I could be more appreciative of the things she DOES do for us instead of pointing out the things that she doesn't do. I should just do those things, instead. I know now that I shouldn't tell her how to do something that she's willing to do (the grass will grow back next week in the places she scalped it.)---I guess I should point out that we have a very large yard, :-)

I need to remember that she doesn't want her problems fixed, she wants them to be heard. I need to remember to never invalidate her feelings, however crazy they may seem. I need to remember that its ok for her to be upset. Its not my job to fix it, but to be there for her.

I need to not always use my past life experience to stop her from learning on her own. I need to manage my expectations better and have fewer or minimally communicate them in advance instead of setting myself up to be let down.

I need to focus on what makes me happy more and stop trying to cater to her emotions all the time.

Its hard to put this in perspective though, bc I feel that these are the same realizations that all husbands come to in their marriage eventually when they grow with their loving, faithful partner, who is capable of communicating their ENs.

As you can see, I have no problem communicating, but she has limited coping skills and is very emotional, all the time. I just don't know what came first. I mean, if she's been carrying on this affair for the entirety of our marriage in one form or another, then perhaps she's always been in a fog. She swears she never had any of these anxieties and communication issues in previous relationships. You know, the ones in which when things got tough, she ran to this same OM for some expensive gifts.

WorstYear:

You are all over the map. I can practically SEE the tracks of your emotional roller coaster in your post.

Calm down and focus.

Get yourself a copy of SAA. (You can purchase one through this site, or through Amazon.com, including immediately downloading a Kindle or Kindle-for-iPad copy. Or check with your local public library.)

Get your exposure plan into place and post it here so veterans can help you.
Who are you going to expose to? (Relationship to you, not names)
How are you going to expose? (In person, mail, email, FaceBook, telephone?)
What are you going to say? What is your letter?

You are correct, you are not responsible for her affair. You are [/i] and she[i] are both responsible for the state of your marriage, however she alone chose the affair.

You can do this.

It isn't always easy to admit our shortcomings. We all have things that we want to improve. I applaud you for being honest with yourself. That truly is the first step in self-improvement.

What is so awesome is that god created us with the ability to choose. What that means to me is that everyday when I get out of bed, I can choose to make wise decisions or foolish ones. However in the end, each day is a new day! Very exciting for me to think I do have control. Control over me.

The day that I got it through my thick skull that I can only control me...man was I liberated. It is a freeing feeling knowing that I just need to focus on my own actions and choices everyday.

When I read Love Busters for the first time my eyes were widely opened. How could I have been so blind not to see what I had done to destroy her love for me. Have you picked up a copy yet?

That was really step 1 in my own personal recovery was really putting the spotlight on myself.

Then I then read HNHN's (after SAA of course), I then realized how poorly of a job I had done meeting her needs in life. You hit it on the head when you said "I need to manage my expectations better and have fewer or minimally communicate them in advance instead of setting myself up to be let down"

Actually right now, having zero expectations is the way to go.

SAA, LB's and HNHN's were 3 books that changed my life. They can for you too.

Now... you must take step 1 and expose. Follow SAA like the bible. It will lead you down the path of the best possible chance to save your M. Your M may indeed fail. Nothing is for certain. But MB's without a doubt will be your best chance at surviving this A.

Please get SAA today. Read it cover to cover tonight. Tomorrow I guarantee your perspective on things will be quite different.

What MB can teach you is that you are not her psychologist. You are not her therapist. She isn't yours either. Neither one of you can 'fix' the other.

eta: What SAA will teach you is that there were indeed reasons for her A. Not excuses but reasons. You have to identify those reasons and eliminate them. The reality is poor boundaries around men is why it occurred. Radical changes from both of you is the only way you will recover....I am sure there are things that she would complain about you and were Love Busters. You have to stop them today. Now.

If you purchase through Amazon, make sure you get the new edition. I ordered from Amazon last month and just realized I have the old edition. The Amazon link for the revised edition is on this thread. Book Club

20YearHistory,

I just purchased (revised) SAA and LB. Which do you recommend that I read first? I plan on reading on Kindle Cloud Reader tonight.

Thank you very much by the way for your support and kind comments. I can't tell you how much I appreciate it.

Read SAA first.

I am reading it now.

It is really hitting home. I am already wanting my wife to read this, is there any point in asking her to read it?

Not until she stops being wayward, but if she ever gets out of the Fog, then yes it will be good for her to read it.

my H and I read it together during FR, and he totally has zero recall of ever reading it. All that it seemed to do was teach him to anticipate my actions so that he could continue to gaslight me lol. But it DID teach me how to have a calm plan, and that was worth its weight in gold.

AFTER my H truly went NC�now that's a different story. Ten-fold! Second time through, he kept saying WOW, I wish we had known all of this before.

This shows how thick the fog can be....

My FWH doesn't even recall that we read SAA together, while we were in our FR....

My H recalls very little from post-D-day and the FR. Actually, he doesn't recall much from during the affair, either. He was one messed up dude.

AM

We could all improve. You can definitely strive to be a better husband but be careful not to let her spin this too much. She already has her parents convinced you suck as a husband.

Yes. be good to her but for heaven's sake you've got to be tough as well and this begins with exposure. Don't put it off. Seriously. Time is of the essence and the holidays are an excellent time to drop the bomb.

Tip toeing around a wayward wife is not the way to get things back on track. Blinding truth/reality is.

The reality is she is going to have to have hope of a different M if she is going to buy into a future with you.

Part of Plan A is to show her that you can stop all your LB's, be willing to meet her needs.

By focusing on yourself, hopefully she can see that you can change to be a great husband to her. Her feeling for the OM have to die first before she can fall back in love with you.

Most women can only love 1 man at a time.

I wouldn't introduce SAA to her yet.

Have you exposed yet?

RE: exposure plan

I have informed a very close 1st cousin of hers and have been gathering OM's contacts. I plan on a more direct exposure to that part of her family. The cousin confirmed the fact that the parents actually encouraged the original relationship when he was 34 and she was 17. It really makes me sick to think about that. Again, though the pattern of non-confrontation by anyone in her "support circle" holds. No one seems willing to approach her, regardless of their feelings about all this.

I now have email addresses and phone numbers for them. Unfortunately, because of the complicated, foreign nature of his name (spelled many different ways), its impossible for me to tell exactly what relation the relatives are.

I just have to call, I guess? I really feel a need to confront him, for my own sake.

From what she says, and how she's acting, and cross referencing phone records, her last contact with him was on 12/3. Things have been much more pleasant at home, but she has still not taken any EPs to prevent future contact.

She came clean during our first joint MC session. We go back on Friday.

My LB is way in the red. I keep thinking of how good a fresh start, out of her town would be.

Do not confront OM until you have completed exposure. If you do, OM will tell everyone else lies about what you are doing. Read through Exposure 101 again and make sure you have a plan in place and that you expose first.

I didn't think of that. That makes sense. I am nervous about calling random people, asking how they are related to OM. I have emails for some of them, that are associated with the restaurant he owns.

Hey Folks,

I thought I would post an update, since its been quite a while.

I never did contact/expose to anyone on OM's side. As far as I know via snooping and from WW, NC has been in place since 12/3. I did not want to contact OM or his family and then run the risk of OM contacting WW again. Plus, from what I understand most of them do not speak any English. So, for better or worse that's what happened.

I exposed on her side to family and friends. Unfortunately, no one has approached her or talked to her at all. I guess that's just the way it works around here. Many of the people I told have been very supportive of me and the potential of us, which was positive. Many also said that I deserve so much more out of life, which I do believe is true.

In the meantime, we've both taken psych evaluations. My suspicion that she was a narcissist, or at least has tendencies was confirmed. She was not diagnosed with full NPD, but has tendencies way above the "normal" threshold. I know what Dr. Harley's feelings are about this with regards to a wayward spouse in the middle of an affair, but I can promise you that those tendencies transcend the affair period. She has cheated on every guy she's ever dated. Most of the time she's done it with the same OM as this latest episode. In fact, I have come to understand from her trickle truth and friends from her past that basically there was only a short period of our relationship that she wasn't cheating on me. Combine all of this with a diagnosed dependency on a particular recreational drug and its a sad story. Oh yeah, she's also smoking cigarettes again, which I really don't like.

My test revealed a high level of histrionic, ptsd, clinical depression, anti-social behavior, and anxiety. I can tell you that's about the polar opposite of how any one would have described me, including myself, before this all went down. The psychologist interpreted this as my reaction to what has happened.

Our day to day has improved a good bit. However, it only falls apart if I show any emotion besides happiness and contentment. If I ever display any negative emotion, she starts out with concern, which then turns to anger and usually leads to a threat of moving out. I am careful not to tell her not to leave anymore. She can see that it hurts me, but that I am willing to let her go.

On top of all of this, we're back to little to no sex, with her claim that she's not where she needs to be in terms of attraction to me. We are both in shape and good looking, so this is pretty disappointing.

So, tonight we meet with the counselor and the psychologist that gave us the tests. This was the psychologist's idea, so I don't know exactly what to expect this evening. I think she is wanting to push for some action one way or the other since we hadn't seen the counselor for 4 weeks while waiting on WW to answer a few preliminary questions about goals, life and marital, via email.

Basically, WW's claim is that she wants to be a good wife, doesn't want to lose me, and wants to make me happy, but that she does not possess the skills to help me process what has happened. She also claims that she cannot control the things that she says and does while angry, which unfortunately is where she gets quickly during any sort of serious relationship conversation.

She had me print out a whole lot of the forms and concepts from Marriage Builders, only to decide a couple weeks later that she was just too overwhelmed with information to complete any of the forms. So, that's been dropped as well. She's willing to go to church and maybe join a marital support group, if the church is in the next big town and not her home town church. She's willing to go to weekly therapy. She's willing to "cut back" more on the recreational drug use.

Its really not looking good for this marriage. I have been spending a lot more time thinking about how much happier I could be if we just throw in the towel, clean up the mess, and move on.

Because the program is not being followed, you are in a false recovery. When the steps are followed and put into place extraordinary precautions, 20 hours of UA time, radical honesty, and POJA, the love bank will fill and marital bliss will take place.

Does your counselor teach MB? If not, why are you going to him or her?

Theses tests diagnose personal problems, but they don't prescribe good medicine for your marriage. Your wife's claim that she is too overwhelmed to go over the MB materials is her way of saying that she doesn't believe in it or that this marriage isn't her first priority. You both need to get the program started and keep to it if you want start recovering your marriage.

Agreed. The marriage is definitely not her first priority. We are likely in a false recovery. We are not using any of the concepts, as I stated.

The counselor does not teach MB, I introduced her to it. We are going to her because this is someone WW had used in the past to address anxiety and was comfortable with seeing her for the marital stuff.

Why not do counseling with Steve Harley?

I will bring it up tonight.

You've pretty much done the complete opposite of the MB program and everything people would recommend you to not do. Are you willing to try something that goes against your natural instinct? Because your natural instinct has been to avoid conflict and pacify a woman who is taking advantage of the fact that you aren't going to leave her, no matter how much she disrespects you. I know you said you would - but - actions speak louder than words.

A "narcissist" who is not formally diagnosed by a team of licensed psychologists/psychiatrists is called a selfish person, not a narcissist!! I really do worry about you, because you make it SO EASY for her to avoid responsibility by coming up with so many excuses for her.

Well, I can tell you haven't read many or any of my other posts, but I'll bite...

What would you suggest I do that's against my natural instinct?

I thought I had been doing a pretty good plan A, aside from having a sort of lopsided exposure.

I am not trying to make excuses, I'm saying, according to her she's trying her best, and it is simply not enough. I am trying to come to terms with the fact that its unlikely that things are going to work, given her lack of effort. So, to me the next step is separation, which is a prerequisite to divorce in this state. 12 months, with or without infidelity.

I didn't come up with the label of narcissist, I posted what the psychologist said about her test results, that she has strong narcissistic tendencies. You can call it whatever you like, she is definitely selfish.

What is your advice here? Give it to me, I can take it. I am out of ideas.

I did read your thread.

Your natural instincts here have been to avoid conflict. You did not expose to OM's side, which is CRITICAL here. He was a 34 year old man preying on a 17 year old girl, you could scare him off permanently by exposing him for the creep that he is. You didn't do it because you wanted to calm any possible storm that could come out of it, but this is exactly how these affairs keep dragging on.

She is using drugs. She is refusing to consider MB materials (do you realize her pattern of letting the storm "blow over" - giving you crumbs to make you think there is a slight chance of hope when she actually has no intention). She is exhibiting independent behaviour. She has cheated on you for most of your marriage and no kids... I don't think Dr. Harley would advise anything here except separation and Plan B. This is simply just the same marriage limping along.

Thank you for that. Its definitely worth thinking about.

I hadn't before thought about "giving you crumbs" before. Very interesting.

I really appreciate your comments, and to be clear, I think you're right.

If you have any more, or anything specific I should not avoid mentioning tonight, I would very much appreciate it.

Interesting. Why haven't you ran for the hills?

There is nothing to save here. You just keep propping up this fantasy she has that she is Princess IAmSoImportantandMustNeverFaceConsequences.

How on earth can she expect to keep you? Just go. No more quacks or navel gazing.

Let her be.

The fact OM was never exposed says it all really.

What this boils down to is she does not want to work at this. Saying she doesn't possess the skills or whatnot is nonsense. If I offend someone or hurt someone, I possess the ability to apologize, never repeat the behavior, and change my behaviors to create a safer environment...If I want to.

You know who can't control their anger? 3 year olds. Again, if she truly wanted to she could control her anger.

This boils down to what you want out of your marriage and how you feel you deserve tobe treated. If it were me, I'd have a list of what I needed from her as a wife and if she couldn't provide, then I'd be done.

Yeah, I regret it. I wasn't aware of MB until months in. I hesitated, then talked myself out of doing it, based on the information I had at the time. I had no real idea of the duration, or any of the details, of what had happened, and what was still happening. I was 300 miles away working during the week, and like an idiot, "giving her space". I was pretty naive.

By the time I knew what had actually happened, she had already begun NC.

So, reconcile or divorce, would you recommend that I still expose OM, after all this time of confirmed NC? Will it help me? Will it help her?

What do you think about that?

I would post him on www.cheaterville.com and then send links to the posting to all the "Customer Review" websites out there.

You posted this 4 months ago...and you still havent exposed to OM family and friends?
If you want to have a good marriage, you need to actively fight for it.

Well it sets a precedent. Men who come near your wife will face basic consequences. It shows your wife you are protective. It serves justice (how many other high school students does he target?)

If someone broke into your home it would be a no-brainer. By breaking into your marriage he has caused far more expense, upset and violation.

Why WOULDN'T you expose OM?

Yeah, I chickened out I guess. I wasn't getting any result from exposure on her side, and got discouraged. Also, right after that post, I consulted with the MC on the issue of exposure. She did not approve. I take responsibility, but that's the truth. I wish I had just done it.

Thank you, indiegirl. Food for thought. I really don't have much to lose at this point and it would probably make me feel good. It would feel like some sort of justice.

Where did the decision to come in to avoid it? You were advised here to do it right? Did she ask you not to?

Yes, the MC said it was ill advised. As did others in my immediate family.

That's my question. If someone affronts you, why wouldn't you fight back? I am always baffled when betrayed spouses are afraid to fight the enemy. Don't they see this as a war?

A really really good way to keep counselling clients coming in, paying money hand over fist is to advise they not do anything proactive.

Better yet if they can get you talking about long dead childhood problems that can't be solved now. That will keep you busy for ages.

It's been encouraging a great deal of silliness in your WW. It's proabably too late to get her to talk like an ordinary human now.

One who can control their anger.. good grief.

I just wrote up an exposure letter for his family and neighbors. I gathered names and addresses a few months back. I will post this letter to all of those people in the coming weeks (right before we go out of town for spring break) and I won't tell anyone (except this forum) before I do it.

If she decides to leave me over it when we get back from vacation, then so be it. I really don't have anything to lose if she's not actually willing to save the marriage through commitment and hard work.

I only wish I had done this sooner so I could have saved myself (and potentially my wife) a few months of misery.

Thank you all for holding me accountable on this.

Have you read this?
False Recovery-Need Voices of Experience

Not to mention all the money you could have saved that you have spent on quacks. Dr H would probably given you the advice you needed for free on the radio months ago. No kids, no entwined finances, almost instant adultery - he would have told you to tell everyone you could think of that they were both dangerous and then leave! Even when people pay for marriage counselling they get a set plan, a timescale and they get to speak to many former clients who have happily recovered. If you've got a rogue spouse on your hands the Harley's will tell you straight that the program will not work and that you should move on.

I wouldn't put any more effort in unless she starts to sound like someone truly remorseful who will do whatever it takes. I don't hold out a lot of hope as I think she is queen of entitlement. I think that in addition to exposure you should start implementing a Plan B. You've been Plan Aing for ages anyway and Plan B will mean healing, which means a divorce hurts less if it comes to it.

No, I had not read that thread. Reading now. All I can say is holy @#$%. I don't know if we're in FR or not, but it sure as hell isn't a very successful R so far.

I thought I had mastered the snooping, but she still has a phone at work, and there could be a secret phone for all I know. She definitely seems like she's back in the fog a bit.

Who knows. I know she'll go ballistic when she finds out about the exposure letter I'm sending OM's family and friends. Oh well, I'm not getting any younger and I am so sick of being sad/mad/disappointed/hurt every single day.

...seeing a lot of the red flags mentioned by others in my situation.

-Lack of remorse/repentance
-Lack of commitment to work on the recovery
-Does not bring up the A
-many more...

Does she know you exposed?

You mean my exposure on her side? No, she does not. None of the friends and family on her side that I talked to have approached her about it at all.

And, just to be clear, I haven't exposed on his side. Doing that in two weeks, the week we're out of town. Will have someone drop the letters in the mail a few days after we're gone.

Why do you ask?

It's not good to trickle out exposure. Why not expose on his side now?

I was wondering how her reaction was to exposure.

Yeah, I know I've botched the exposure. Again, I was advised not to do it at all by friends, family, and the MC. Also, I didn't discover MB until a month or two after I found out about the A.

As far as not exposing now? My excuse is about as lame as it gets. We have a trip planned to a resort, its already paid for. We made the plan a few months back when things seemed to be on an upswing. We both thought it would be nice to have something positive to work/save towards. It is beyond the point of cancellation, and I have no one else I could take with me on such short notice.

On top of that, I know there will be fallout from the exposure, that will potentially lead to a plan B. I want to make an effort that if that's the case, to make sure she has recent good memories from plan A. I figure some of the storm would have calmed down by the time we get back, but who knows.

We're back to the MC tomorrow evening. A sort of emergency meeting I suppose. It could come up there that I exposed on her side. I have been trying not to pull any punches on the rare case we're talking about it at all. I pulled no punches Monday night, making sure to tell her and the MC that unless I saw real, tangible action on WW's part, starting immediately, then I was prepared for divorce.

To her credit, WW agreed to meet again this week, cancelling plans with her so called best friend (and accomplice), and also asked for an appointment with a substance abuse counselor.

Of course, I'm seeing $$, but hey I'm used to getting drained at this point.

...funny thing is, I've made statements about how the rest of her family felt about the relationship she had with him as a teen, and that her parents actually thought it was cute/funny.

She claims that there's no way I could know that, but it doesn't occur to her that I may have talked to family and friends that remember that period. If she flat out asked me if I talked to anyone in her family besides her parents, I would tell her the truth.

After the session Monday night, she made the claim that no one in his family knew, and I told her that I should have told them. She said it wouldn't have made a difference, but it got me more fired up to do it. He should have to face some consequences and maybe if I do that, I can move past the urge to deliver consequences of a different nature to this POS.

Can you do MB coaching instead?

Have you read this?
Beware of Bad Counselors

Will read/listen now.

I'll be honest, MB coaching looks pretty cost prohibitive to me at this point, but I could use it as one of my stipulations in a Plan B letter.

I wonder if I could use my BCBS insurance with MB coaching/counseling. We only pay $35 per joint session.

It should also be said that despite what WW might think, we have not begun any real therapy/counseling yet. Its been a really long intake process. Most of the previous sessions quickly devolved into arguments between the two of us over trivial bull crap.

I told the MC that we've told enough of our story, I was ready for action. I have demanded that the MC lay out a framework for a recovery plan, which they are supposed to be doing.

It seems they wanted to address the drug dependency first, but we're supposed to get down to business tomorrow night.

I dont think MB Coaching accepts any insurance, but you can email them and ask.