I never thought I'd be back on this group typing this message. Years ago I came here for help in my marriage during a rough patch at year 2. We went to counseling, we overcame.... we went on to have two beautiful children. We've now been married 22 years.

On the night of May 31st, she came home from a trip with the kids to see her mother to tell me that she was walking away. She's done. That we are going to fix up the house, sell it, and she's going to move back home. I am utterly broken. Shattered. I'm in constant grief. 4 years ago I had leukemia and had body shaking fever spikes and she would lay her body on mine to keep me warm -- we had NEVER been closer in our marriage. 4 short years later she's telling me she's walking out. The pain I'm feeling is indescribable. I'm lost in a darkness of sadness I can't even describe here in this message.

Her reasons are there she's tired. The family hasn't been a team to help her, and so she's drowning between work and home and getting groceries, and holding everything together without help. She wants to run away so that's what she is going to do. Of course me and the kids (now 15 and 17) sprang into action and immediately began cleaning, helping, doing, everything -- even though those acts have been making her angry. She's angry it took this. She's angry we didn't care enough before. She's ANGRY.

She HAS agreed to counseling -- but she reiterates that she's only doing it for the kids and me and that she doesn't really want to go. Our first session is on the 24th. Because of COVID we are having to wait to see someone in person -- which is something I thought was important rather than virtual.

I need to lay out something here that is hard for me to even say, but I want to be honest - The other probable factor in this is that two years ago we both decided that our marriage was invincible and that we would try swinging. That's another thing I never thought I'd type. Yes...we tried it several times but nothing ever felt right and we stopped. Neither of us were angry (I guess outwardly) but we did it. I thought it might be good to bring that up here (and in counseling) so you have a clear picture. I now can't help but think it damaged us badly even though we both agreed at the time that it wasn't a big deal and that while we weren't having a great time it wasn't hurtful. I think that was wrong. I think it was a massive mistake.

My wife is one who is a beacon of light to everyone. She smiles, she's cheerful, she lifts everyone up -- so it's VERY hard to recognize when she's hurting or angry or has taken on too much.

Anyway... currently she's all over the place. She flashes ANGER. She flashes complete determination to follow through with her plan. She flashes emotionless. But then she flashes kindness, she responds to me when I say "Love you" when getting off the phone with the same, and yes.... we've been intimate twice since she walked in and dropped the bomb.

I don't know what else to say. I'm utterly devastated. I'm lost. I'm angry at myself. I'm regretful of decisions we made. I'm in constant grief that is tearing me to pieces. Today I thought of this message board, remembered, and wondered if it was still here.

What should I do? What can I do? I'm in desperation -- and this time the pain is 500 times what it was when we only had 2 years of marriage. She is the love of my life. There will never be someone else like her for me.

That would make any wife feel unvalued and unloved.
Major damage has been done here.

Do you still see the couple you slept with?

Have you read the Basic Concepts?

Don't wait until the 24th to go into counseling. Contact Dr. Harley today. What matters in counseling is not whether or not it's face to face or virtual, but rather the quality of the help you receive. Markos and I spent many hours in front of several counselors face to face, but we got nowhere until we called Dr. Harley.

Thank you for the response Prisca. We haven't seen any of those couples again. We didn't really even have relationships with them in terms of friendships or casual communication.

As for contacting Dr. Harley -- what does that entail? What does that cost? We stopped the activities months ago. I think the last one was in the fall and then we just sorta fell out of it and stopped. Life got busy.

Also, how do I get in touch with him?

You need to do some snooping. You need to find out if SHE is in contact with any of those couples, without your knowledge. You also need to look for another affair, either physical or emotional.

You can talk to Dr. Harley for free on his radio show. Email him at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. You can either email or call in -- I recommend calling. Make sure to include your phone number so they can call you. You're not required to use your real name -- the times I've contacted him through his show, I've made up names.

To live with who?

So she's going to leave and that will fix it ... how?

A typical wife is not going to leave just because she feels like she does all the house work and shopping. Who is she running to?

Her plan is to move close to her mother into her own place. I am absolutely confident that she's not involved with anyone. She's not protective of her phone. She's not acting in any other way different than she was. I also talked with her mother at her suggestion because she knows I don't have anyone else. Her mom told me candidly that she asked her that point blank and she said absolutely NOT.

I would be checking up on friends she may have in the area.

How? What have you done to verify?

She's leaving. That's acting different.

People who have affairs lie. This is not evidence of no affair.

It's very rare that a person will answer honestly about being in affair. Most lie about it. The best thing to do is to quietly snoop and don't ask. It's possible she's not in an affair, that she is simply fed up with the marriage. But the first thing to rule out is an affair.

Her mom asked her if she was having an affair. Even her mom is suspicious.

This needs checking up on. If you snoop and rule out an affair, then great! You will know that the battle you're facing is going to be easier than it could have been.
But, you do need to rule out an affair. The steps you will take will be different if there is another man in the picture.

Exactly!

We had a man in our church go through nearly this exactly same scenario about 3 years ago. Wife moved home to parents' state. Swore there was no affair. Parents said there was no affair. Divorce was finalized. Affair was revealed; it had been there all the time.

Oh my God. On a hunch I called and asked her about a guy she dated in middle school. I knew she had talked to him about my son's snakes since he raises them. She got silent on the phone (she's at work). It all came out: She's been talking to him for 6 months on messenger. I begged her to cease communications while we attend counseling but she said she doesn't want to.

I AM BROKEN. I don't know what to do.

She confessed to an affair?

Nomad, I am so sorry, but I am glad you were able to uncover this so fast.

Here's the thing: since she was willing to admit to talking to him I am almost certain that there is more to their relationship than just that.

DON'T confront her or ask her about it again - you need to start investigating to uncover the full truth for yourself.

You need to see those chats.

DO NOT ask her for them.

It is very probable that she is having an affair with this guy. Does he live close to the place she is going?

I would downplay your reaction to this news and start doing some snooping. Like the others said, women don't just up and move out unless there is someone waiting. You need to be like James Bond and find the evidence. Be discrete!

He lives in the northeast. She hasn't traveled anywhere. She says they have been chatting. HOWEVER -- she decided she was going to a high school sorta-friend's funeral the week after next. He is going to be there. That's how I figured it out.

You need to get evidence. What does she use to chat with him?

You need to put spyware on her devices. Can you do this?

And a VAR in her vehicle, where she most likely is talking to him.

Messenger. I know you guys are watching out for me legally. I still want to SAVE this.

The objective is to save your marriage. You need to get spyware on her devices so you will know what she is doing. Don’t ask, don’t confront anymore. Just quietly snoop and then come back here and we can give you next steps. Can you do that?

You probably need to start reading through some of Dr. Harley's materials on surviving an affair. To save this you're going to need to uncover more information about what is going on.

I don't think I can get the spyware on her devices. She has her phone in hand constantly. Also, isn't that a betrayal?

I suspect she's both using messenger to chat with him, and also this app called Marco Polo.

No, it’s a betrayal to cheat on your spouse; it’s not a “betrayal” to catch her cheating. This is information about your life to which you have a right to know.

Can you access her Facebook account from another place to see the messages?

Read SNOOPING: IS IT WRONG? OR, IS IT THE RIGHT THING TO DO IN MARRIAGE?

We have a family beach trip coming up next weekend. How can I do this? How can I go with her knowing what I know? I don't know what to do!

SNOOP! Get the goods and come back here. We will help you with next steps. Please focus all of your energy on getting access to her chats.

You can do this, Nomad. Breathe and take one step at a time. First step: Snoop and get the evidence.

I'm trying guys, but she has hidden her other phone. I surprised her with a new one last week and I assumed the old one would be around but it's missing. I've looked everywhere.

Do I tell our 15 and 17 year old? They know about her wanting to call it quits. They don't know this.

One step at a time, Nomad. Don't tell them till you have the evidence. Get the evidence, then come back here for next steps.

It's really important to stay very calm and pleasant while finding solid evidence of her affair. Don't expose without evidence that would convince a jury. You don' t want her to spin the story or make you look insane.

If you can’t find her old phone can you sign into her Facebook account on a laptop, iPad or your phone? Do you have a laptop that she uses?

I found her phone. I think she deleted history with him. Her sister -- recently divorced -- said awful things...and she talked about me being desperate and smothering her. I made a huge mistake by confronting her about it. However, she said she understood why I looked on her old phone.

She is cold and emotionless tonight. Despite our huge mistake of bringing others in -- she's got an emotional thing with this guy and that kills me. I offered to just tell the kids that I was the one that cheated to spare her from their blame. She refused.

I don't know what to do next. This is my worst nightmare. I'm truly lost without her. I'm hurt. I'm angry. I'm lost.

What should I do? We are keeping with our family vacation next weekend to the beach. There is nothing I can do about her chatting with him. I've begged her to cut it off until we have counseling but she says she doesn't want to. I wont' expose her to the kids or her mom. I care too much about her for that.

I am so lost without her. She's my best friend. I don't know what to do.

So I lay here sleepless next to her. Managing to peek on her old phone I didn’t find much. However, she admits to talking to him daily. I kind of hate myself for snooping.

- she cites years of the family not helping her and not being team players
- she’s so angry I can barely breathe
- she does say she loves me, and I believe her, but she says she’s done and if this house wasn’t in the way she would be gone
- she understandably cites the swinging as having damaged her and that she can’t come back from it . It’s agonizing because it was a stupid ugly awful path we both chose to try. It was the wrong path. I try to tell her it can be healed but she says she doesn’t want it to be healed. I have faith that all can be healed, but she keeps repeating that she doesn’t want it to be healed.

Btw — she threatened that if I told the kids about her chatting with The guy she would tell them everything. So I’m not sure how to expose this emotional affair.

Do I just do things for her to fill her love bank relentlessly even despite what is going on and hope she comes around?

This morning she’s still angry but I’m probably the only one that can tell.

However — she said she did everything perfect yesterday being nice but it wasn’t enough — but then she said “I kind of understand though, because that’s what you guys have been doing and it hasn’t been enough”.

She then said we’d go on our beach trip next weekend and then go to counseling the next week and see where it takes us, She also said she would go to the funeral and come straight back instead of socializing afterwards with her old friends (and the guy she’s been talking to).

Start by gathering evidence and NOT talking to her about it.


No. Clam up and gather evidence.

We've been here before ... we know what we're talking about ... ignore the advice at your peril, my friend...

Then you are not done snooping. You need evidence that would convince a jury that your wife has had an affair.


YES.

You told her you were looking at her old phone? Why??

WHY ARE YOU TALKING TO HER ABOUT THIS?
Your wife is an addict right now and you need to be treating her like an addict. She's going to say and do things to protect her addiction. Any hint she receives from you that you are on to her, she will just take her addiction and hide it better. STOP talking to her about this! As far as she knows, the only thing you're interested in is which flavor of cookie you should eat next ... Let her think you're clueless and don't know what she's up to.

We've got a plan here. Would you like to follow it?


There is something you can do about her chatting with him. We have a step by step plan to get through this. Many of us have been through this ourselves. Would you like to follow the plan that works?

Your wife is following the wayward wife script to the letter, btw. They've all said what she is saying. They've all reacted the way she is reacting.

The problem is not with what she says she thinks or what she says she feels.

The problem is this other man in her life, fogging up her brain like a drug.

You can rescue your wife here from her addiction. You can rescue your marriage. Do you want to? Do you want to follow a plan to do that? A plan that works?

You are not going to be able to talk your wife about this, but by talking to her you will tip her off to what you are doing and make it harder to do anything that will really help the situation.

Nomad, this just...

I can't even ...

WHY would you offer to do such a hurtful thing?

Marriage Builders is not "roll over like a doormat because women really like that." They do not. This is a sure way to lose your marriage.

Sooner or later you've got to face facts: like most of us here, your own best thinking ruined your marriage ... stop jumping into impulsive ideas and start following a plan that works, sir!

Her lovebank is closed to you until you bust up the affair. You can't bust up the affair until you get the evidence.

The advice is the same: SNOOP AND GET THE EVIDENCE.

You can't expose if you don't have the evidence. DON'T THREATEN TO EXPOSE. She should never know you plan to do this.

And of course you shouldn't lie to your children about having an affair? WHAT?

Settle down and stick to your plan.

How do I snoop effectively? What do I use? She never is without her phone and I don’t know her passwords.

Also, she is already planning to leave when we fix the house up and sell it. Is it too late to bust up this affair? Should I contact the man’s wife on messenger?

I’m ready for the plan... I just don’t know how to snoop.

Can you break into her facebook account and read her messages from a laptop? Can you figure out her passwords?

It is not too late or we wouldn't be wasting our time. But you need to get evidence of the affair even if you have to hire a PI for a couple of days.

Don't contact the man's wife or anyone until you have evidence. THEN you can expose to them all in the manner outlined in Exposure 101.

You can also put a voice activated recorder in her car or any place else you think she might be talking to him. You should also get a GPS on her car so you can track her movements.

Her passwords are awful. Like big and secure.

She did leave her old phone still in the same place though.

Location history, can you access the chat history? Sometimes it is backed up in 'the cloud'. Erasing apps is one thing, but Google and Apple have a good idea of the whereabouts of their customers.

Plug the phone into a computer and copy what you can. Search later.

If it's an Android phone, go to Android => data.
Different apps store useful intel in that folder.

Download the folder with audio, video and images.

Were you able to get into her Facebook account?
Have you put a VAR in her car?

Does her old phone have access to her Facebook account?

I need to get a VAR. any suggestions?

I looked on her old phone again but she didn’t have any messages from him. She had one from her sister and one from her female friend.

Got a third crack at her old phone.

-- WhatsApp hasn't been logged into. It tried taking me through the setup steps
-- Snapchat was the same. setup mode
-- Instagram only had 1 message from him and it was a meme he sent to her
-- Messenger is odd -- it's only showing me Thursday from him and no other history. And the day I exposed her (and she admitted talking to him) was Friday.

All of those are more or less dead ends for evidence. For the record she is still getting new messages on messenger from her mother and sister so I know it's working still.

I am going to deploy a VAR in her vehicle and leave it there for a few days. I'm also going to reach out to a PI where the funeral is. Anyone have any idea how much that usually is? I'm assuming these guys will be so good that IF she actually is behaving herself she will never find out.

Can you try to sign into her facebook account from another location? Have you looked around to see if she has her passwords recorded somewhere? Do you have access to her email account? If you do, you could do a password request and get in there long enough to copy and send her texts with the OM.


Right, a PI is not going to announce himself. But a good PI can usually get everything you need in a short time.

Been checking her old phone pretty regularly. She had an exchange with her mother where she said she's just ready for it to be done and come home, but that she promised me counseling so she's going to go.

She had an exchange with her friend (not THE guy) where he was showing her his new girlfriend he's getting engaged to, and he said he was excited to see everyone at the funeral despite the circumstances and meet the hubby. She responded 'hubby is up in the air' to which he was "??!!!". They then messenger audio called for 15 mins presumably so she could tell him what was up. A few days later she said she had booked her room for the funeral and that everyone would go hang out afterwards. Then a few days past that she messaged him and said "I have cancelled my room. It looks bad and Scott is making me go to counseling :rolleyes:. Remember that this whole exchange is with her longtime friend who is NOT a romantic interest -- and yes I checked back to their entire history. It's the other guy that she has connected with emotionally.

Anyway... she told me she was going to compartmentalize her anger so that we can be friendly and I won't break down constantly. So last night was nice. We had a couple drinks and had sex. Then the whole family went to church this morning. She's wanted us all to go to church for ages but we never have very often. We all went today. I may take classes to become a catholic with my son and that way we could join her for communion (assuming the marriage lasts long enough for that).

Our beach trip is next weekend. First counseling session the week after. My son (15) in the car on the way back from church said "thank you mom for giving us a chance. I mean the whole family.".

Oh...and on the ride back from church she thanked everyone for helping and what we are doing.

Where did this conversation take place? You need to have a voice activated recorder there. These are cheap at Walmart or Radio Shack. I would get moving on this. Be sure and put one under her car seat and velcro it under her seat.


I am rolling my eyes too because going to counseling will likely spell the end of your marriage. Marriage counselors are destructive to marriages and are little more than divorce counselors. They won't try to save your marriage, that is not their objective. They will try to help YOU accept divorce. MC's don't understand the FOG that comes with affairs and will take her at her word. Marriage counselors have a higher divorce rate than the general population if that gives you any indication and have an 84% FAILURE RATE. They don't have any idea how to save marriages.


That's great! Bravo to your son!

I am confused about something. Are you going to this funeral with her? Is she going alone? If so, why did she cancel the room? Is the OM going to be there?

The counseling is faith-based but professional marriage counselors. Not on my insurance but I thought worth it since it's faith based.

And yes...shes planning to go on this funeral trip alone to hang out with her old friends afterwards for a few hours. And yes....the guy will be there.

That's great as long as you understand marriage counseling is destructive to marriages. They have no earthly idea how to save a marriage from an affair. The advice given by Dr Harley, clinical psychologist who specializes in infidelity will be completely different. One of the reasons "counseling" is especially destructive when there is an affair is because it is needless distraction from taking steps to save your marriage. You can't save a marriage from an affair sitting in a counselor's office. A good analogy would be an alcoholic. Alcoholics don't get sober by going to a "counselor." They sober up by taking action steps. They can't take action steps if they are in a counselor's office.


So she plans to hook up with the guy there...

I think she may have planned that. However, I think she has rethought it. Snooping discovered that while he's flying in -- she cancelled her hotel and told her other friend she's leaving right after the reception afterwards.

My thoughts on the counseling -- there is a LOT of anger over the swinging and that is what opened her to talking to the guy. I think the counseling MIGHT help her let go of some of the anger while I'm attacking this from the Marriage Builders plan of action. It will also give her an excuse to keep going -- because she knows we have counseling ahead of us. We did marriage counseling in year 2 of our marriage (faith based) and it actually worked. we went for about 3 months and everything has been fine for years after that.

PS -- I'm going to have feet on the ground there to find out what happens too. Friends that she doesn't know.

In other words, going to counseling to talk about the bad experiences of the past will make her more angry, not less. As long as you continue bringing it up, she will continue being angry and will have perpetual justification of her affair.


And yet here you are...

I understand what you are saying. I'm just afraid that if we don't go...she will accelerate and harden her plans to leave. I know that's irrational. It's the message of 'I'm cancelling counseling" that I don't want to send.

I wanted her to go to the Priest with me and for us to talk to him. She doesn't really want to do that. She's horrified at the thought of admitting these last two years to him.

Right now I'm busy trying to get evidence. It's tough. Her passwords are ridiculous and hardened. She just uses her passwords from work so she can remember them -- so it makes it extremely tough to get in. I'm getting that VAR and will have eyes on the ground in two weeks.

Also -- I'm considering deleting this thread in case it occurs to her to look at this site. She knows I consulted them years ago.

Does anyone know how I can monitor her phone without having access to it? She literally never puts it down. I'm desperate to expose this so we can begin recovery.

It's so desperately awful to spend time with her knowing what is going on. I've been eating little. Sleeping little. I wake up wide awake at 3 in the morning and can't get back to sleep.

Last night she did a few little things that were different. She kissed me directly on the lips. She snuggled in and let me pet her head when we were going to bed. I whispered that I loved her so much, and she snuggled closer and reached out and grabbed and held my hand until we fell asleep. Those simple little things allowed me to fall asleep for much of the night. I'm starving for her and the pain is ridiculous. I just needed to type that out.

I know her love bank is closed while this chat affair continues -- but should I keep up my relentless attempts at filling her love bank anyway? I've been busting my hump around the house and we've been working together on cleaning. I had dinner ready for the family when she walked in the door from getting the kids from their summer job yesterday. I know I'm not making any progress on her bank, but I feel like I need to do these things anyway.