I married my high school sweetheart 23 years ago. no big issues or probs--mostly just 23 good years and 5 good kids--all older now ages 16-22.

I have been in full time ministry for the past 15 years.

My wife has always been a fun loving, non complaining servant heart type.

I have been a bit disillusioned with my career and have been spending tons of time with my hobbies for about 3 years now--collecting knives and guns and reloading ammo.

My wife started a "surprise" affair with her general manager on 02/22/2013. They exchanged friendly emails stating around 10/2012. When my gave a 2 week notice to leave the company, she emailed the OP to tell him how much she liked him. They started eating lunch together during her 2 week notice period. Hugging and kissing in the office parking lot. It escalated to sex on 02/27.

My WW self disclosed the affair to me on 03/02/2013 hoping I would just let her go. I immediately forgave and went to work on my marriage. She send an email "ending it" the same day. Yep, she told him how much she loved him and would miss him in that email--I did not know how to do it right at the time.

I bought Saving Your Marriage Alone by Ed Wheat and read it. Ordered Surviving an Affair too--read it around 03/20/2013 or so. Did not even see this forum until today.

So I have been working Plan A for 4 weeks--kind of--what I could read and understand--before reading on here.

WW affair continues weekly. She has "broken it off" 4 times now. She means it, but cannot follow through with no contact. She has met the lover at least 4 times in 4 weeks. I picked her up from his house one time and talked to the OP face to face and asked him to back off so we could restore our marriage.

I have just been avoiding the love busters and trying to make deposits. I just read about disclosure today and will prep everything Monday 04/09/2013.

My confusion is with plan A. I set a deadline for 08/01/2013. But then i read about disclosure and demanding an end to the affair--I thought the book instructed me to hang in there and give it about 6 months. If I set a ultimatum i think she will leave--I don't mind saying i am sacred to death of that--but I trust God's grace will be sufficient.

So...a little more clarity on how to best execute Plan A with my WW who will not really end the affair and take real steps to end and prevent comms???

Gotta go now, but will check back here 04/08. Thanks for any advice. 1 Cor. 13:7

MTW,

Sorry you're here. The vets will be along shortly, but for now, please read up on exposure. Your WW is likely continuing in the affair because there is not enough pressure to end it. You have to kill the affair before your Plan A will have any chance of succeeding.

Hi MTW, welcome to Marriage Builders. I am sorry for the reasons that brought you here. The purpose of Plan A is to kill the affair using a carrot and a stick. Plan A does not mean to enable the affair as you have been doing.

Rather it means using certain tactics to bust up the affair. For example, you should demand that she end the affair or this will lead to divorce. Let her know you will not tolerate continued contact. A complacent approach reflects a lack of caring and that is the last thing you want to convey.

The affair should be exposed to your family, especially children and close friends. It is very helpful if you expose it to the OM's family and to his employer. Affairs thrive on secrecy so exposing them is disastrous. Exposure kills about 50% of them immediately and in others it hastens their death. It is no fun to have an affair when others are looking on in disgust! The more people who know, the more people to hold them accountable. Please go read the thread in my signature for tips on exposure. It will give you talking points and strategies.

The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A by Pepperband

The carrot of Plan A


Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Stop lovebusting behaviors.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.



The stick of Plan A


Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

Not apologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financial security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Plan A is both a *carrot* and a *stick*.

Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?

Dr. Harley's comments on inappropriate forgiveness and how it harms your chances of recovery:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=2510#

You fail in your dealings with your WW for this reason:

If I set a ultimatum i think she will leave--I don't mind saying i am sacred to death of that...

If she knows that (and she assuredly does) she will go on living the dual life - OM ringing her chimes, and you tending to the home fires.

Ultimatums are useless. Threaten nothing; let her find out about your actions AFTER they are performed.

Step one is to assemble an exposure package and deliver it to OM's management chain, and Director of HR. There is no better action you can take right now.

Step two is to assemble an exposure package and deliver it to everyone in WW's life - siblings, parents, friends, co-workers.

Step three is to ruin the life that facilitated her affair. Cut her off from all funds, and accounts. If her vehicle is registered to you, pull the plates and cancel her insurance.

You should have all this done by tomorrow.

Please waste no time debating this with us here. Your knowledge of the correct actions to end this has displayed its fecklessness. Just try ours.

The biggest mistake that people in your (our) shoes makes, is to think that you have to protect your/her reputation and forgo the proper exposure. Sometimes we think that our full time ministry work will be put in jeopardy if we expose. In fact, your marriage will not survive unless you put a stake through the heart of the affair. Exposure is the only way to do this. Marriage is way more important than ministry so please, listen to the experts here and heed their advice. The longer you wait, the less effective it will be.

Also, let her find out through the grapevine. Do not tell her anything. You alone are fighting for your marriage right now. Do not seek advice from the enemy before you attack. Kill the affair now. She will be mad but thats an expected consequence of the affair, not the exposure.

MTW

So sorry for your pain.

Your wife cannot give up the OM on her own. She is addicted. Like any addict, she may WANT to quit, but she can't. She NEEDS you to be the warrior.

You are getting excellent advice here. Follow the plan exactly. Get set for full exposure now. Get it done ASAP. Yes, it may seem counter-intuitive, but do not let your fear stop you. Be the warrior.

You can do this.

Thanks for the quick input and straightforward advice.

I sincerely appreciate your experience and time.

I just did not know this resource was here. I have been reading Dr Harley's book and felt it was calling me to 6 months of all niceness in plan A. I just read about the "stick" half on here last night.

I did read the exposure thread (I think I was erroneously calling it disclosure in my original post) and I am making preparations--wish I'd known all that on day 1. Called 3 trusted peers and none of them advised that way.

I initially read some advice on another website especially the "37 rules" which advises the exact opposite of what I am reading here. Hence the confusion.

Dr Harley has detailed our situ step by step in his book and supported his concepts with Biblical authority, so I trust his advice the most. Actually I prefer strong action, but I feared it would just make things worse.

I have a lot to do and I feel my role in the church will complicate the timing of things a little. Any other Pastors out there want to add any pointers on sequence and timing of actions?

Thanks again everyone. I am reading MeodyLane posts everywhere!

I am not a pastor but I was a leader in my church. I have stepped down from ALL leadership responsibilities at the church until further notice. I cannot concentrate on my marriage enough with that going on too.

Your role in the church should not complicate repairing your marriage. If it does, it may not be the right role for you. The church is/should be ALL about marital relationships coming before ministry. My pastor says, "ministry should be used to build people, not people used to build ministry".

Also, when looking for trusted advisors, look for their success rate in building/rebuilding marriages BEFORE you decide to heed their advice. Most advisors do not have the success rate that Dr Harley has.

So, my advice on the sequencing of actions would be.
1. Execute the MB program immediately
2. See #1

Eph 5:25 says, "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church". Thats exactly what this fight is about. Your main enemies will be those that put pride and reputation before your marriage. The MB program, when followed properly, will not allow that.

I hear you loud and clear.

I had no inkling of the power of this thing, so I thought we'd confess, forgive, pray, commit, and restore...and be back on track in about a week. I woke up about this time last week.

I meet with the elders on Tuesday to create a transition plan for my resignation. I was thinking church leaders should know first and not find out on say...facebook???

I am looking for new work now and my marriage and kids is all that really matters to me at this point.

My wife started the affair while we doing the How To Affair Proof Your Marriage in our small group. I could never believe the 15 hours of focused time per week was really doable...until now.

Wow is on point. I know there are a few ministers that have been through here as well. From reading the forums, exposure has the greatest effect in bringing about changes in an ongoing affair. Try to expose to everyone in a short time frame; 24-48h without telling your wife. Then wait for the fall out.

The loss of your wife's good reputation is a consequence of her deciding to have an affair. Do not shield her from that consequence or you remain an enabler. Good luck to you.

MTW, I am really glad you have made it here and don't believe it is by accident. You are correct that Dr Harley's program is backed up by bibical authority. I know of no other program that is as effective as Marriage Builders. Most cause more harm than good.

As far as timing, there will be no perfect timing so I wouldn't waste a moment worrying about that. I agree with your plan to tell church authorities about the affair so they don't hear it elsewhere. It is a good idea to do all of your exposures within the same 24-48 hour time window. And the sooner the better. The longer the affair is allowed to continue, the more entrenched and the greater the likelihood your wife will get pregnant. I would plan to do this very soon, without warning your wife.

I would also suggest you expose to the OM's employer and his parents. If he has a facebook page, you can usually get names from his contact list.

Parents called on our side. Top church leadership informed. Friends and Family email written. Working on FB contacts and Company Contacts.

The OP was in charge of HR and #2 under the owner, so there is little where to go over his head, but I will still write and send letters by all means.

OP has a girlfriend and some adult children, shall I notify them too?

Thanks again everyone.

I would inform his GF, adult children, and inform the owner of the OMs company. The owner needs to know how reckless the OM is.

When you say you informed all your parents, did you ask them to contact your wife about her affair?

I would also tell any children over age 5.

And MTW, when your wife finds out you have exposed, be prepared to see Linda Blair from the Excorcist! She will make all manner of threats so don't let it upset you. Just respond that you will do what it takes to end her affair. There will be no point in trying to reason with her because she is under the influence of an addiction.

I called the parents. I called some church leaders and emailed the board of leaders.

When I start sending FB messages I end them 1 at a time to each contact? From my account or my WW account?

Just to be straight, in plan A then, I...
expose the affair--if WW leaves I go to plan B
demand she stop the affair--if WW leaves I go to plan B
call out my WW every time I discover she sees the OP--if WW leaves I go to plan B

If I do all that and she will stay at home I just keep up the carrot work too.

Is that right?

Thanks again everyone.

You expose.

She may stay or leave.

You can continue plan A either way, as long as you are able and willing. In general, Dr. Harley will suggest men can stay in Plan A longer.

Tidy up your side of the marriage. Make sure you understand the Harley concepts. Be a beacon of hope for a new marriage. The old one is dead, a new one must be built. Lead the way.

So, Plan B is not necessarily an immediate step.

Really read up on the plans. From yoru question, I think you have some fundamental misunderstanding of Plan B at the very least.

Is there a link with a little more clarity on how to do the exposure on FB? I have read 10 pages of Exposure 101 and I am not seeing it.

I PM WW contacts? Can my wife see it/them? How do people "like" it? Confused about this action?

Yes, one at a time from your own account. And some you may have to pay a $1 to send to their inbox.


You should stick to Plan A. And in Plan A you demand she end the affair or this will lead to divorce. Every time she goes to see the OM, call her out and make sure you pay the OM a visit. If you know she is going to meet him, then go with her. Do everything you can to ruin the visit. But I predict that your exposure to the OM's GF and his workplace and his parents will be enough to run him off.

Don't concern yourself with Plan B at this point. Just focus on Plan A, which is to kill the affair.


We will have you do carrot stuff too even if she leaves. I doubt she will leave, and even if she does, she will be back soon.

Your goal is to expose the affair to anyone and everyone who may be able to influence your wife and OM to end the affair. Your wife and OM will find out about your exposure once it begins, because your exposure targets should begin contacting them and pressuring them to end the affair. If you expose far and wide--without forewarning your wife or OM--it's possible to end an affair the same day you expose it. Fingers crossed!

OK. I have confronted my WW 4 times now over continuing to see the OM. She is starting to complain of me crowding her and saying she needs space and that maybe she should move out. She tells me she wants to go but she cannot stand to hurt everyone and is afraid i will kill the OM.

So....I just assume she will leave if I push the issue.

I have been trying to keep her home at all costs basically.

It will be different this time because you are exposing the affair everywhere. Your exposure may well kill the affair. But you need to stay focused and get this done today so you can move onto next steps.

Have you exposed to the OM's girlfriend, the workplace and your children? What about the OM's faccbook contacts? Are you exposing to his parents and family members? Those will likely be the most impactful exposures. And I would get them all done today.

She might leave, which is unlikely, but if she does she won't be gone for long. Your exposure efforts will cause a massive blow to the affair.

Get the exposure finished, let the fallout occur.

No need to plan for what may or may not happen.

I sent an email to about 200 contacts of friends and family.

I send about 100 PMs on facebook. I have about 300 left.

The OM had blocked access to his FB when i checked this am--he has been scared i would try to kill him or a family member though I have never been mean or disrespectful or threatened such a thing outright to him. I am working on numbers for his family and will send emails and letters to his company on Tuesday.

She is getting hoards of calls and texts now. I had such a nice lunch with her today--still now was the best time. She is F bomb mad now and said she is not coming home.

Tons of support is rolling in now too, and a lot of calls to see if I have been hacked--a lot of people do not believe she was capable of it.

MTW, have you been able to contact his GF? What about your children?

When you say you have 300 left, what do you mean? To the OM's facebook contacts?

And have you been able to access his contacts by signing in under another name to see if you can see his contacts?

If you mean to your wife's facebook contacts, I would stop and focus on exposing to the OM's contacts, his GF, his workplace and your children. Your wife needs to be getting calls from your children tonight. AND her parents. Will her parents call her and try to persuade her to end her affair?

Yeah, the kids know. They have known for a week or so. I'll have them call/txt.

She hates my Dad so I did not have him call. Told him, but did not ask he call.

I asked her mom, brother, and sister to call tonight.

A friend is trying to talk her out of going to the OM's house and is taking her out to dinner.

I have nothing on the OM right now--working on numbers--he has just 1 son at home, the rest are adults and they have all locked up their FBs.

Do you know the name of his girlfriend? Can you find her on facebook? What about his parents?

And I would send out emails tonight to his HR Director, a key Vice President and anyone else at work who would be significant.

And if he has you blocked on facebook, can you try and get to his contact list by signing out? Can a friend go on their facebook page to see if they can see his contacts?

Also do a background check pretty simple to do and some are really inexpensive.

I do not know the girlfriend's name.

I looked at his FB under another user--it is all private now.

I have a people report with 7 names of relatives but I am not finding much.

I will send the work emails tonight.

Can you do a search on facebook for those people?

MTW,

One deep source is the company email list, if Joe Dirt bag works for XYXcorp.com, just search "@XYZcorp.com", and you will likely pull up tons of names.

Also www.linkedin.com !

God Bless
Gamma

I searched the names, but they are all private--he was scared I'd kill him last week.

I think I have a Dads phone number.

My wife is asking me why? Is there a good answer that sounds less controlling?

How long shall i expect her to be irate?

Thanks folks.

Can you call it?

"My goal is bring your affair out into the open. Your affair has caused me and the kids so much pain that I will do what it takes to end it."

I did, pretty sure it is mom and dad, but no answer...yet.

Yeah, that is pretty much what i said.

Do you ever feel like you are taking care of scared little babies...I feel like one

You are doing just great!! It is very scary and I applaud you for standing up for your marriage. You are doing the right thing and we all know how very hard this is. Like Winston Churchill said once, "when you are going through hell, keep going!"


Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. Psalm 23:4

That is just GREAT! Hopefully you can contact them. One thing you should do is disguise your # when you call just in case they know your name. You can punch in *67 before you dial the number and your name won't show up on the caller ID.

Well done MTW. You've hit the mark with your wife being angry. Hopefully exposure to the company owner and OM's coworkers will run him off. Don't stop until it's done.

You are doing a stellar job. Until this is the open then hopefully dead, nothing would change.

Now it can.

Stay strong, it can get very hard on you. But be the light.

The encouragement helps a lot...you all must know...sorry to you too.

Many friends are griping about the action being wrong but I agree something had to be done to change the cycle.

I will be ready to listen and love if and when she comes home...is able

She had a huge gripe about me controlling her life all these years, so she has added this up to more hurtful control

I guess you weren't too good at "controlling" or she wouldn't be having an affair!


And they all mean well, but they do not know how to save marriages. You will also hear from many who will support your marriage, so don't be discouraged!

How many of these friends have a history of saving marriages? MTW, the day my FWH's affair was exposed was the day it died. He told me later that he was grateful that the affair was exposed. He said he didn't know how to end it himself.

Listen to the people who have been where you are and recovered their marriages.

Dude, we get many BSs here who arrive as you did - distraught and unsure of what to do. We give them the guidance that you have received.

So far, your acceptance of the advice has been stellar, which sets you apart from many of the other arrivals.

DRIVE HOME the exposure, but BEWARE of the sneaky bat-s**t-crazy WW that yours might become. Protect yourself with a mini-audio recorder on your person and "On" whenever you are in proximity to WW. You do NOT need the complication of a bogus domestic violence complaint.

You are doing great. You have listened and followed the advice given. Exposure is the best tool to kill an A, if not immediately it will continue to impact the A and hasten it's death.

Try not to listen to well meaning friends who do not understand the benefits of exposure. Unfortunately many believe a BS should keep quiet about the A. They do not realise that this enables the A, that secrecy allows the A to thrive and become more entrenched.

As other posters have noted your WW will be angry you have interfered with the A and you will hear lots of fogbabble. When you read the many threads on MB you will see they all follow a wayward script, so try not to take what you hear to heart. Many FWS have later acknowledged the value of exposure and it has been a major factor in recovery.

Take care and stay strong.

Well done, MTW!

Keep following the advice given, it really works. Like other's have said, be prepared to experience an crazy, angry WW. She'll say all kinds of things that she won't remember later. Get the voice recorder for your own protection.

Couple of things: Don't appologize for exposure and don't give her your exposure list. Tell her you are doing everything you can to end her affair so you can work on having a wonderful marriage with her. If she asks who you told, tell her, "I exposed your affair to friends, family, and coworkers to gather their support in ending your affair and saving our marriage."

You are doing great MTW, much better than I did. The madder she gets, the more damage you did to the affair. She will be foggy and in withdrawal, just like an addict. Prepare for that, watch for the signs and just be the safest place for her to land. If you are the safest place for her, she'll see you as the beacon of light that she needs.

Yes! OM's peeps should definitely know about the infidelity.

Welcome to MB.

Oh, poor baby.

Be sure to make "home" the best place on Planet Earth.

Once the affair is killed .... we might need to discuss this....


This is probably one of her major complaints ... even if it is an unspoken complaint.

Save this thought for later.

Thanks again for the encouragement--it all helps.

She was really not that mad and she did come home. Pretty dang mad though. I slept on the couch--i can hear the door open easier from there anyway.

Tsunami is about right. Phone ringing and texting non stop. Mom called, brother called, 10 yr old friends called etc.

She keeps asking why, why this person, that person etc. Each time I just get to re-emphasize that it is the affair that is the problem and the threat, not the people trying to help.

I eavesdropped on 2 conversations so far. One where all 3 kids still at home went in and talked to her about all the commotion. And on her phone with her mom this am. She did not even sound mad with them--like she does with me--she says she knows she needs to do right, needs to stay, but that she loves the OM so much and that what I did is not helping just pushing her away. But each time she says that and developed more belief, accountability, and reason I know it is helping.

I actually talked with her this am a little about it, trying to answer the why questions, but not apologizing. She let me hug her when I left.

So...I got a call from the owner of the company where the OM works. He is pretty pissed and a bunch of people are going home today because they are sacred for there safety. I have never made a threat, but my wife told them all what a gun enthusiast I am--sorry, but that tickles the heck out of me. He went on and on about threatening his co and employees and i ensured him that was not my intention--totally calm and respectful. Surely the OM is going to catch crap for this right? The owner said it was a personal matter and he would not be involved. I reminded him of the legal and ethical implications of a high level manager getting involved with an admin assistant--especially if medical complications result, but that my primary motives were to influence the OM to end the affair for good.

I tried the OM parents 6 times and finally just left a message on a home machine.

Basically, all hell is breaking loose. But it was gonna sooner or later anyway--this better than sitting on my hands.

My stomach is in knots, I hope I am done with all this expose stuff now???

Thanks again so much for all the comments, instructions, and encouragement. I appreciate you tons.

Yes. I am totally half the problem. I neglected her ignorantly. She was looking good, doing good, meeting my needs, and was getting really scared I just did not notice or care anymore. Kids are leaving and I was in la la land--she was scared she'd end up all alone in the long run--end up like her parents--together but isolated. It is all the stuff Dr Harley warns about and I even preach about, but I was asleep in my own dang marriage. The core mistake was me believing she was invincible. I have tons of work to do and I'll do it--I just need the second chance.

OM is probably going to dump her.
She's too much work now that you are nipping at his heels.
Not to mention, 5 kids.
Prepare for WW's tsunami of grief.

PS:

She'll get over it.
Watch her like a hawk.

Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

OM just called me. Said he is not pursuing and he is sending her my way. He has told me that before, but it was when I called him. I'd say the pot has been stirred.

How do I prepare for the Tsunami of grief and how long before it hits? 30 day withdrawal period coming?

You are doing great!! I would try driving to the OMs parents home. Can you find their address? If you have a phone # you can do a reverse lookup on whitepages.com.

When you speak to your wife, tell her that there is no future with the OM because he will be eternally hated by your kids and her parents. Ask her parents to call the OM and tell that POS he will never darken their doorstep.

Don't know where you got 30 days from.

Probably 5 times that.

Withdrawal can take a while. Sometimes, symptoms will pop up out of nowhere when you thought it was behind you. I'm 3 months out from D-Day and I think the worst of withdrawal is behind us. I still see some signs but we talk through them and she clears up pretty quickly.

So...I got a call from the owner of the company where the OM works. He is pretty pissed. He went on and on about threatening his co and employees...The owner said it was a personal matter and he would not be involved. I reminded him of the legal and ethical implications of a high level manager getting involved with an admin assistant--especially if medical complications result,...

...but would leave those details in the hands of my legal representation in the "inappropriate workplace" lawsuit that was in process.

It will hit fast.

GPS her vehicle. First chance you get.
Get rid of all your hobby stuff. For now, move it away into storage. You can decide what to do with it later.
Be the domestic partner of her dreams. Put gas in her car (you can GPS during that time). Grocery shop. Laundry. meals. Entertain the kids. Help with homework.

Ask her this question: "Is there anything I can do for you today?"
If she responds with something reasonable, go ahead. If she says "I don't know." (WW's sad face) Give her a cheek kiss and say, "I'm going to make a fresh pot of coffee."
If she tells you to "Go to hell" ... go make coffee.

Rule #1 is - do not argue with her.
You can listen as long as you can stomach it.
But, do not allow her to bait you into a fight.

Watch her like a hawk. Once OM dumps her, she will try to contact him. or spy on him. Or have someone else feed her information for "closure".

"Closure" is a load of horse manure.
Cold turkey is the only way.
She's an addict. She will miss her drug.

PS:

During her grief period, do not try to tell her "I love you".
Save it.
Write it down for later.
She will not be receptive & will probably be irritated by normal stuff.

This too shall pass.

Wow777 it is good to hear you speak of progress and hope.

Pepperband I am writing your advice down and will act on these things...probably to the letter (ex military issues).

She does use a girlfriend at work to communicate. I am sure she will reach out several more times.

Dr Harley's book says things start to get better after about 30 days of withdrawal. I offered a 30 day vacation but she said no.

I have access to her office at work when I visit her there. Should I bug it? Work email and her friends' phone have been primary comm tools. I know most of what I know from intercepting texts on her phone between her and her girl friend when she leaves it laying around. The girl friend is cheating on her husband too. I have been trying to get the work email protocols so I can deliver them to my outlook and leave them on the server, but no luck so far.

OM told her I bugged her phone and car already--she is sure I have.

Have you exposed the girlfriend to her H? I'm not sure what the vets would say about that but if someone knew my W was cheating, I'd want to know. Now may not be the time though

We are long time friends. Both the H and W have had previous affairs. H suspects it now and I told him he should. It is messy. I have just been encouraging both of them to come here. Honestly, I am scared that if I blow the whistle on the W she will retaliate and hinder progress with me and my WW.

Sure. A VAR.
voice activated recorder
BUT there will be a lot of "other" work talk you will have to sift through.
It's probably better to VAR her car.

I just don't get that... why would you be scared of a silly little adulteress when you have the power of God on your side? Do what is right! Dr. Harley says the worst withdrawal symptoms are over in 6 weeks and then are really weak by 6 months out.

I think she is already poison to your marriage. Do you think she could do more harm than she has already done? It seems to me that exposing her to her husband would neutralize her.

Well, you all are right. I'm turning into a great big sissy. I called the H and told him what I know. If the light is good for my marriage it is good for his.

I suspect I still have illusions of some degree of control. Probably best to start trusting God entirely. This thing has really shaken me.

Thanks again for the straight talk.

You got it!

So...any ideas on starting a conversation with my WW tonight?

She will of heard from the OM by now that I screwed up everything at his work. That should be a fresh dose of pissed off for tonight. She will be ranting about how I try to control everything in her life.

I see the couch in my future.

Be pleasant, be kind, and don't allow her to engage you in a fight. And most of all, don't sleep on the couch! You have a bed and you should sleep in it.

What about the OMs parents? Any luck there yet?

And also tell her the OM said he was done with her. Boo hoo...

Still a wuss, I see. Or are you the family dog, that she can tell you where to sleep?

Sleep in your bed. Don't fight about it - just sleep there. You have a right to sleep in your own bed.

"I am trying to save my family. If you expect less from me, I am so sorry."

She won't stay mad forever. Her anger will burn itself out. She can't sustain that. Maintain a calm and controlled demeanor, friend. You will be her port in a storm.

Many of us have been in your spot, MTW. And look at us now!

Keep going. You're doing great.

OH, my goodness. OM is now a liability to his company! Well done, MTW! Sir, I tip my hat to you. You listened, you acted. Do you have any idea of how great the odds are for a successful recovery for you?

We'll have to steer reluctant posters to your thread to show them how it's done.

Well done, MTW.

If you listen to one thing anyone says listen to this. It was the biggest symbol of my marriage. Sleep in the bed.

I had abdicated the bed pretty much before hand and never went back. It is the one thing that summed up my failures.

It is the ultimate in conflict avoidance, the ultimate in being a coward instead of a hero. Might seem small. just a way to get sleep. But it is everything that got you here wrapped up in a tiny bundle.

Think about it, she has an affair and you are still cowing to her anger.

Listen to one that learned the hard way. Make this stand. It is a seemingly small thing that is a symbol of everything that you don't want to be, that you can't be if you want to lead the way out.

You may think I am making too much of this. It is the one thing that makes me look back at myself in disgust.

For me being so controlling, she has a power over me.

The OM parents did call me back. They said they were aware, that they were already discouraging it, and that they would call the OM again tonight and have another talk. It was a very respectful conversation.

I had called another man at the OM's work and asked for the girlfriends name too, which he said he would email to me, but I guess he is the one that left the building 1st today today and told everyone that a crazy scorned husband would be there to kill people--I never insinuated that, but it pleases me. Needless to say, i never got the OM's GF name.

My wife just called me. I think she is acting madder than she really is. Like pride keeping her from admitting this is all helping. I told her good bye twice but she would not hang up...lots of silence..reiterated why I am doing this and how the affair is the real problem. She asked me what I wanted from all this and I told her I wanted the affair to end and a 2nd chance to meet her needs.

I meet with church leaders tonight--most of them will disagree with my exposure, but it is hard to argue with the results eh?

Thanks again for instructing me, and smacking me around a little.

Oops! MISS. Get your butt back in your bed, MTW.

And before you get in there? Put on fresh sheets. Plump up the pillows. Make it an inviting place for your WW (and yourself.)

No man, that makes total sense--I just never thought of it from that angle. I was just thinking I'd show love by taking the harder spot. I'll just crawl in bed tonight and act like nothing is wrong. I doubt she will say a thing, but if she does I'll say I changed my mind and that I do not have any underwear on. Kidding about the last part.

This is why receiving counsel is so important--there is so much we fail to see on our own.

OM's words mean NOTHING. He is covering his own butt. Watch this. Make sure your snooping tools are in place, in case he is playing you and isn't going to go easily away.

Hope for the best. Prepare for the worst.

MTW,

She will of heard from the OM by now that I screwed up everything at his work.

He was in a position of authority, trust and responsibility, by having an affair with another employee he violated those privileges.

Correction OM screwed up at work and is no different than someone who takes inventory home, damages equipment or writes graffiti in the bathroom.

God Bless
Gamma

Darkness is only good if you're trying to get a decent night's sleep Other than that, shine on!

You are more in control of this than you know. And it's wise to trust in God - He's leading you. I suspect He has led you here.

I fear I am late with this post and you are already in this meeting, but you MUST respond: "Please tell me how hiding the deeds of Darkness is a blessing to God?"

No, you won't. You'll hop into the freshly-made bed (that I just posted to you about) and pat her side, while she is looking at you like you're nuts.

MTW: I put fresh sheets on. I thought you'd like that. I know I do.
WW: You're a disaster, do you hear me???? You've made my life a mess, blah blah blah.
MTW: I'm sorry you feel that way, dear. Wow, this bed is so comfortable!

etc. Don't be drawn into in-depth crap right now. That's for later.

Maybe your church elders will be interested in these scriptures:

"This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God." ( John 3:19-21)

"Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them." Ephesians 5:11

You were very brave today, MTW!

MTW,
Way to go so far. You are man who seeks wisdom, recognizes it when he sees it, and does something with it.

Looks like you are on your way to blowing this affair to smithereens. Your wife is in the fog, and you are unleashing the dogs of hell on her addiction. (Pretty good for a minister.) You are effectively making the affair a bad proposition for the other man. Keep the heat on this loser. If she can make it 60 days without contact, you will get there.

As far as the wife goes, she will be angry about exposure for some time. So don't expect her to understand what you did. She is in the fog and it doesn't dissipate overnight. When she keeps asking why, say, because I am fighting for my marriage. Explain that exposure shines the light of truth on the affair and affairs fall apart under scrutiny. They thrive only in darkness of secrecy.

Continue to Plan A by meeting her needs and showing you're a better husband in areas you failed in the past.

Offering take her on a 30 day vacation was a great idea. After all the exposure you have done, spending 30 days with you alone probably is the last thing she wants. But after she calms down and hopefully comes to her senses, she might reconsider if you ask her again. So wait awhile then ask again. If she says no, then negotiate for a week vacation or a weekend get-away and build from there.

Finally, if you have the money, set up an appointment with Steve Harley. From everything I've read about him here on the forums, his counseling can get her back in the fold.

MTW,

You're the man! Like other posters have said, go back to your bed. My WW tried to physically remove me from our bed. Make sure you have the recorder available to capture this encounter.

1st post: 4/8/13 01:50AM

10-megaton exposure; DONE.

You, sir, have done VERY well.

Her anger is already cooling down.

I ordered the gps logger today.

I intend to back up her iphone to my laptop in the ams when she is in the shower--how often is the norm? I hate itunes though--it'll eat up a ton of my 10 year old computer. I track her texts already though--only about 5 per day. She is wary of using her own phone. I'd like to see all the pics though.

I am thinking about a VAR under the car seat, but she listens to music a lot so I'm not sure it will work--is this worth the $100?

I am intercepting all her non work emails already--very few. She uses her laptop here at the house maybe twice a month, so I am hesitant to spend money on a keylogger. I am trying to connect with another employee in the building so I can try to get the company email protocols and intercept those too.

So how dire is all the snoop tools if she does not know how I am getting insight and what I am doing is working so far? I can sell a gun to buy stuff if needed.

How do I keep the heat on the OM on an ongoing basis? Do you mean by confronting him every time something is found? Letters? Glassing his house when he leaves in the ams? Putting an airbag initiator on his gas tank and programming it to my wife's cell number? Sending him a counterfeit aids testing letter from the county health department? Chaining his axle to his swimming pool filter? Putting a dead fish in his ac evaporater? Better clarify because I could get a little carried away.

One of the guns that is part of the hobby you admit took your focus off the marriage?

I may be just a tad radical here... but I would tell you to sell most of, if not all of, your collection. Her head will spin. WWs tend to have resentment towards the hobbies that "replaced" them.

Heck... Ws in general resent hobbies that take their husband away...

While I truly admire your creativity, PLEASE DO NOT DO ANYTHING ILLEGAL!!! This will only complicate things further and make it more difficult for you. When people advised you to keep pressure on the OM, I�m quite sure they meant through contacting his employer. Don�t let them sweep this under the rug, as they are likely to do if you don�t follow through.

The snooping is for you to verify NC between OM and WW. She will never be able to get through withdrawal without NC. What software are you using to view her iPhone content? I used a program called �iPhone Backup Extractor� and it worked really well, especially if you can get access to a computer that she previously backed the phone up to. Anything that was ever on that phone when it was backed up will be in the backup file. When I purchased it, I think it was $10. The keylogger may not be important, and I tend to agree that if she uses the laptop sparingly, she�s probably not using it to contact the OM. She could end up doing that though, especially if she finds out that you�re snooping in other areas. Better to know than to be fairly certain. I�ll see if I can find a relatively inexpensive one when I get home from work.

I feel that the VAR in her car is important. You may have to sift through a lot of irrelevant recordings because of her listening to music, but if she buys a throw-away, prepaid phone, this will likely be the place that she uses it.

Be careful with company emails. If they process any kind of privacy act information, it could be a federal crime to try and intercept those emails. Like I said, don�t do anything illegal. Most companies have a required user agreement that every user has to sign. If you can keep legal pressure on the company to investigate this OM for violating company policies, they will dig into his company email. If they have any sort of backup solution (not sure how big the company is, but they should) then anything he has ever sent or received from that email address will be recoverable. Force the company to look into this by taking legal action. Don�t try to do this yourself or get an insider to get you this information.

MTW, I agree that you should not do anything illegal! One slip up and you can bet that you opponents will use it against you in every way. So be very careful.

Raising hell with the OM means visiting or calling him up every time he contacts your wife. And calling his parents. Make his life a living hell.

As far as spy resources, I would also be searching her car for a secret second cell phone.

If this hobby is something you and your W will never enjoy together and it hinders your ability to spend enough UA time with her (remember 15 to 20 hours a week) then I say sell the whole collection. Use the money on something you and her agree would be enjoyable in doing together.

Thanks goodness my W enjoys golf. I�d be really sad if I had to sell my clubs.

I strongly agree. Your wife has already warned OM about your gun collection, portraying you as a potentially dangerous person who may literally try to kill him. As a man of God who is trying to save his marriage, that is the last impression you should be giving anyone.

In light of Aurora CO, Newtown, CT, etc. I don't blame people for being afraid to go to OM's workplace after hearing about your anger, your comment that you wanted to kill OM, and your extensive collection of guns and ammunition. I've got to tell you, I was very disturbed by your comment: "I guess he is the one that left the building 1st today today and told everyone that a crazy scorned husband would be there to kill people--I never insinuated that, but it pleases me." Their fear may have pleased you, but I doubt it pleased God.

I suspect your wife (and others) would be relieved if you got rid of that entire collection.

We are also gun enthusiasts at my house MTW. If you ask your wife if you should sell your collection, she will likely say, "Oh no, I know how much you love it. You would resent me if I asked you to do that."

Wouldn't it be wonderful if you sold a few substantial guns (ones you LOVE, not just think are "okay") and bought her a beautiful new diamond wedding band to replace the old one from your dead marriage ? If you did this totally on your own, as a surprise, and wrote a nice letter to go with it, tell her how much she is worth to you ? And then expect nothing NOTHING in return from her. That would be awesome.

In light of Aurora CO, Newtown, CT, etc. I don't blame people for being afraid...

That was a gratuitous slap that probably offended every law-abiding firearm owner on this site, JC (or should have, IMHO). It certainly offended me.

WSs spout off here all the time, hoping (praying? Likely not in this case!) for some disaster to befall the APs, and very often drifting into thoughts of delivering that disaster themselves.

Waving the "bloody shirt" of victims having NOTHING to do with infidelity nor revenge, but being occasioned by the demented compulsions of the mentally ill, to castigate a BS venting his anger and frustration, is likely not helpful to his cause.

"This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God." ( John 3:19-21)

Exemplary timing, Tex. This was today's RC Gospel.

I LOVE this idea, FF!

OM's colleagues are perfect strangers to MTW. They never did anything to MTW, and they had nothing whatsoever to do with his wife's infidelity. Those poor people were literally afraid for their own lives, and you are saying it was appropriate for MTW to take pleasure in that? Seriously?

If you want to sell some guns as a symbol of what you are willing to do, that sounds like it may be good, I really can't judge.

But I wouldn't spend it on something like a wedding ring or anything yet. It will likely result in "You make me sick" or something on that order with a WW in withdrawal.

I got some similar type advice from well meaning women in the beginning, coming from their perspective as a BS or FWW, and in my experience they either didn't know or had forgotten the mind frame of an active WW.

That stuff won't work.

The wise BigKahuna said this back on my thread:

"Telling his wife in withdrawal how much he loves her will cause her to throw up."

I agree, your mileage may vary.

This is a good time to talk about the two types of resentments. MTW be sure you operate your marriage carefully to avoid Resentment A (1) below.


Your W shouldn�t be asking you to keep your guns if it causes her pain only because she wants you to not resent her for it.

1). You keep your guns because you love them. Your W is neglected aka you hurt her.
2). You sell your collection to avoid hurting your W knowing you could resent her for it.

I got home late from the church leaders meeting. One of the leaders has had an affair--amazing how transparency begets transparency--so he said exposure was best and few could argue, so only 2 objected. They object on grounds it smears the WW and hinders her restoration. I assured them nothing smears a WW more than the affair itself, subsequent divorce, and rampant gossip that follows. That meeting went great and they asked me to stay, but I intend to resign in 8 weeks so I can concentrate on my marriage and family and not the flock.

I went home and went to be, but I could not change the sheets as she was already in there...in her clothes...been crying. She barely said a word about it.

She woke me up yelling at me at 2am. Now she is mad like you guys spoke of! She got news about the OM catching crap at work. What a blessing, she said "Are you trying to get OM fired?" I have never seen her that mad ever. Shaking mad. "I'm leaving your controlling [censored]" mad. She was digging under my skin trying to get me to fight--oh heck it was working but I did not want to leave the bed so I just stayed as calm as possible and reminded her the affair was the problem. She used more F words last night than i have heard from her our whole 23 years. She is working on a budget and trying to figure out how to move out...but, she mentioned the kids again this am. I asked her if she was coming home today and she said yes. When I asked her what I could do for her she said nothing right away, but then mentioned a few things the kids needed--I told her I would handle it. I started seeing cracks in her anger before she left this am already...I think, I hope.

I checked out her laptop and there is nothing of interest. I believe it is all happening on her iphone. She seems more protective of it now. I will use the same software mentioned above--it is installed and ready.

I'll get a VAR today too.

She came down and snooped on my computer this am. She is worried about what crazy thing I might do next. That is a good thing, right?

I did not tell her about this forum, but I mentioned I am receiving counsel and not acting viciously on my own. So now she aks "Did your stupid counselor tell you to do that?"

The knife collection is a much bigger issue than the guns. I have about 500, so it'll take 2 months to get them sold, but I'll start listing them. I was already planning on it, but lacked the gumption to do all the work necessary.

She said her mom offered for her to come stay with her for a few weeks in MO. Should I encourage that right now?

Thanks again you all, your are a life saver in all this for me.

Yup.
Same thing goes from the perspective of the betrayed wife.
When my still foggy wayward H would say "ILY" .... it was bile-inducing.
My sarcasm was instant (back in the pre-MB day) .... "Yeah? As much as you LOVE OW?" Pep made this face ~~~> .... a LOT !!!!

Mr Pep made much better milage into my soft zone when he would ask: "Is there anything I can do for you today?"

As I suggested before, for now, write love letters, date them, and put them away for later .... like in a year.

How shall I put this?

HELL ************** NO!!!!

You have been listening, right? You really already knew that, didn't you?

Possibles:

Do What?

No, the Bible suggested I turn on the lights.

Were you hoping I would lie for you?

What is the purpose of secrecy?

Are you talking about Sue's boyfriend? (use OM's girl friends first name whenever you speak of OM. Do not use his name, but his GF's name)

Define stupid. I know what I think is stupid. What do you think is stupid.

There is no reason you need to take her babbling seriously. Just resist laughing in her face.
Once her head has cleared, she will not believe what she said to you.

This insanity is temporary. You need to remember that.

Have you cancelled her credit cards yet?
Cut off easy money.




*ka-ching* Love Bank deposit. You can't do this if she is with her mother.

MTW, I would not encourage her to visit her mother. You need to be together in order to recover. Her mother does know about the affair, right?

As far as selling guns, is it is the presence of guns that is the issue or the amount of time you spent on this hobby? I don't think that selling off guns is too wise in our current political climate so if you don't need to sell them I would hope you wouldn't.

As far as the hysteria in the OMs workplace because you are a bad, evil gun owner, all I have to say is good grief. Law abiding responsible gun owners can't be responsible for every hysterical kook out there.

Once the A is killed dead ..... and her anger/resentment is becoming wearisome for her to carry around , and her love bank has some sweet deposits by you .... THEN your lovely wife is ready for us. We can help her too. But right now, it is way too premature. She'd just get uber-pissed at us in her current state of foolishness.

I agree.
I suggested you put the guns in storage to POJA later when your wife is sober/sane and working as your team mate.

Current photo of MTW's wife.

You know, you are right about selling some guns to buy a ring. I forgot how fighting mad I was at my BH at first.

So just keep that idea in your pocket for a calmer, later date, MTW. Someday your wife might swoon at the thought that she means more to you than your sweet tricked out gun

You have a good chance here, and you are doing everything right. When she will allow you to meet her needs and start filling her lovebank, then it will mean a lot more.

And I'm guessing if you are anything like we are, selling one or two guns doesn't harm your ability to protect yourself and your castle......(we're in the double digits )

Press on. Stay calm. Don't respond in anger. You are doing so very well.

FF

Those poor people were literally afraid for their own lives, and you are saying it was appropriate for MTW to take pleasure in that?

Why not? I sure am enjoying the situation, and I did as little DIRECTLY as he did to make it happen!!!

NO (legal) THING that ruins an AP's life will ever cause me to feel remorse. If this complication leads to POSOM getting fired, I see Chuck Norris making a PSA for the NRA from the account!

LOL @ NG (again)

I'm listening. She responded to texts from a good friend of mine this am (another Pastor we trust) and she told him she was going to leave me for awhile. Said it was not about the OM but that she needed to get away from me. Not sure if she means apt or mom's. He told her chemo is crazy radical treatment for the cancer victim, but saves lives...kinda like my exposure emails and our family.

I wondered if 2 weeks at moms might be good since it is several states away--no access to OM. Her Mom and Dad have lived in total withdrawal for 15 years--they are not relational wise at all. If you say no way I trust that and will discourage it.

I have not told her I love her since I read not to a ways back. I'm taking the whole family out for a nice dinner tonight before my son returns to his Naval duty station--I'll invite her to come along.

Anger for a week you said right? Then grief and addict withdrawal for 6 months +-? Is there a 3 week accelerated program, I'd kind of like to get this over with:).

As soon as she gets a whiff of OM .... from any source .... the timeline is screwy.

Keep her and her little-ol'-love-bank home, near you.
The kids will not appreciate her leaving to go off to "find herself".
Watch her.
Expect her to be unstable.

Thanx, Ms Band!

As for your portrait of WW:



I'm afraid the wrong ends of the llamas are shown as doubled up.

I think this displays WW better:

Is there a 3 week accelerated program, I'd kind of like to get this over with:).

Not sure about three weeks, but a WS experiencing that "What the hell was I thinking?" epiphany, and doing all possible to help, will shorten the cycle.

I sin every day. I did not insinuate it was right, but it sure as hell brought me pleasure. I was the apitomy of respect and they started pissing their pants because of their own wild imaginations. Have you read Proverbs 6? And for the record, they knew the OM was trying to get my wife in bed--the guy I called even said as much when I spoke to them. I have to specifically name them and their actions in my prayers of forgiveness every week or so just to stay sane. Guilty and scared for good reasons--none of which are due to me.

Still, who cares about all that, I have a marriage to save and need you're help--lets focus on that.

Having timetable and expectations will only disappoint and discourage you.

This works, but it is not an exact science.

The outcome is not a forgone conclusion.

Not trying to discourage you, just be realistic.

This is the common double edge MB sword. Not MB fault, but it happens over and over.

You come here without hope and a plan. Here you find both. So the outcome is guaranteed, because you want it so much. Not so much.

Take care of your side of the fence. Keep expectations in check.

Like manna in the desert, only one day at a time.

Once again, a blast from the past

It will make this much harder if she goes to stay with her mother. She will be able to contact the OM from there too. And since your MIL is not very savvy, contact will be easier, not harder. You can't stop her, but I sure wouldn't encourage it!

You might want to just take a neutral approach to her going away so she doesn't use leaving as a punishment.

Oh, that is huge. How did you know I was hanging on her every word, touch, facial expression for some sign of improvement???

I'm trying to get this concept down--but I fluctuate in and out of it.

As a self professed military guy , you will appreciate this oldie-but-goodie MB post. The Art of War - Sun Tzu


We go to war against adultery, not against the spouse who is lost.

Been there, done that.

You are not alone.

This link is to encourage you in your prayer life. It was written by another Christian warrior who battled his wife's infidelity .... and WON!

Mortorman -[color:#CC0000] Walls and Doors[/color]

I wrote this, inspired by our pastor one Sunday ... and I adapted Pastor's sermon to these forums. It's linked in my sig line.


Thinking about this quote in the context of a wayward mind ....

1. Deception.
We talk about wayward "fog", which is verbal expression of the self deception that goes on in a wayward mind. Deception which allows a so called "normal" person to commit adultery. "The enemy" is the ultimate liar. What deception does is this, deception makes swallowing a deadly poison seem like a desirable choice. This is the point in adultery where the waywards telling themselves lies might be shocked into reality by exposure. perhaps not, but it is possible. Truth & light are kryptonite to the deception. I am talking about the wayward losing his/her mind.

2. Hardening.
Now, about the wayward's heart. It hardens. The wayward heart becomes callous. The wayward heart becomes closed off and insensitive to the pain and devastation their adultery causes. The wayward can even accept the broken hearts of their own children if that pain supports their adultery. The wayward becomes impervious to empathy. Cry all you want, your tears have no meaning for the hardened heart of a lost wayward. Your tears, your pain only annoy the hardened wayward heart.


3. Destruction.
And finally, the wayward's soul. The sin of adultery destroys the wayward's soul. The spiritual essence of humanity is nowhere to be found in the wayward. Integrity has been cast off in order for the adultery to continue. The wayward does not go on his/her merry way unscathed. The wayward is the most wounded of all. The destruction of a once beautiful soul, now made ugly by sin, is heartbreaking.


There is a progression to this loss.
Humans are vulnerable to temptation.
Temptation feels good.
But, giving into the sin, and living in the sin is life changing.
Soul changing.

We can actually SEE it sometimes.
We can actually SEE the cold eyes of the hardened heart.
We can actually SEE the lifeless eyes of the soulless.

Have you been able to verify who this news came from?

I don't know whether you are deliberately missing my point, or so defensive about this topic that you genuinely missed it. I've said repeatedly that OM's colleagues--who've had nothing whatsoever to do with this situation--shouldn't have been made to fear for their lives. If I worked there and heard a rumor that an enraged, betrayed husband might barge into the office and go postal, I'd have been afraid, too! When you have an enormous collection of knives, guns, and ammunition, common sense dictates that you shouldn't go around saying you want to kill someone. That is almost like yelling "fire" in a crowded movie theatre. This is not a gun debate; this is about respecting people's right to feel safe. So get off your high horse.

The BH has made a request that we help him with his M.

Jessica, where did he threaten to kill anyone? I have read through this thread and must have missed it. The impression I have is that this man - THE VICTIM HERE - has been treated like a killer only because he owns guns. How retarded is that?

The threat to these people comes from the OM since he brought all this drama on the rest of them. Getting beat up and/or killed is a JOB HAZARD of screwing someone's spouse. It was the OM who created this risk, not this man. This BH did not have an affair, he did not ask for this situation.

J.U.S.T S.T.O.P.

My basic point is that you can't justify yelling "fire!" in a crowded movie theatre just because POSOM happens to be one of the people in the theatre.

If MTW is in Plan A, he should be trying to make himself more appealing to his wife, not scare her away by making threatening statements that make her fear he is coming unhinged.

Okay, I'm done now. I'll stop.

I thought this was quite creative! And I thought immediately of NG! Well I kind of like the dead fish idea. Was it on here that I read the story about the smelly stuff in the curtain rods? Ha. I agree that MTW is likely venting and not dangerous at all. Though I don't like guns AT ALL. How does your wife feel about guns?
I agree that a symbolic gesture of quitting your hobby before you get around to discussing it will be greatly appreciated. And the diamond ring, well let's just say diamonds are a girl's best friend. So yeah... good suggestion!

Trust the Kahuna

I've gone back and read EVERY ONE of MTW's posts. He said that his WW had said she was scared he would kill OM. He said the OM was scare of him hurting him. I think he said a man he told at OM's work may have put out that he was angry and coming to the workplace. MTW said he has never made any threats at all. If I am wrong, I would be happ to be corrected, but from my perspective it is ALL in the OM and WW's minds and they are gaslighting these others. Don't blame MTW for what OM and WW are doing!

oh gee I posted before I read page 2! Um yeah, love that kahuna post, and agree that WW should stay home. Can you get MIL to say now is not a good time?

This man did nothing wrong. He threatened no one. He has been assaulted and it is not responsible for lies told by his wife and her punk OM. It is a slap in his face to blame him for the slander and lies told by his tormentors.

re: "Anger for a week you said right? Then grief and addict withdrawal for 6 months +-? Is there a 3 week accelerated program, I'd kind of like to get this over with:)."

You are wishing for a quick fix, and there are no quick fixes in recovery. Before the affair your marriage was in trouble and chances are your WW was already in withdrawal. Dr. Harely explains the process of recovery in marriages that are in trouble--where infidelity has NOT occurred--is a lengthy process where the spouse in withdrawal goes through periods of withdrawal (indifference) to anger to renewed love and back again through anger. This process takes time. When infidelity is involved, there is also the OM to compete with.

Rebuilding a broken marriage requires patience and time. Thankfully Dr. Harley equips you with a plan for success. If you use Dr. Harley's principals and your WW comes on board, you will have a renewed and happy marriage. Getting her out of the fog and on board is your task right now. Follow it through without expecting results other than you yourself are becoming a better spouse and person.

Somebody nailed it down perfectly earlier.


MTW,

The reason I suggest that you dramatically reduce your collections, is because over time they became something you showed you valued more than your wife.

If I were to venture a guess, I would say that you withdrew into your hobbies because your wife also had other interests that she scuffled you for; very likely your children.

It's very common for a husband in a child-centered marriage to retreat into his own Recreational activities, and as his Love Bank balance dwindles into withdrawal, the Reacreational Activities become more attractive than his wife.

In this situation, many wives become resentful towards those recreational activities.

Mine did.

So, the day that I got the ILYBINILWY speech, I uninstalled all of my computer games, cancelled all of the accounts, and unplugged my game system.


Her foggy head spun, and the line was repeated nearly verbatim by another poster;

"But, but, but.... THOSE ARE YOUR FAVORITE THINGS!"


No, dear. You are more precious than these things, and I will not forget that again.

Went to an interview and the thread went crazy.

The piece on the Art of War is crazy good--thanks.

The piece on short prayers is crazy practical--thanks

The piece on sin, hardened heart and dying soul is crazy scary--but still, thanks.

The arguing about scaring people at the OM's work....well it does no good to scare innocent people, and that is wrong, so the writers concerns are valid and duly noted. Still, I like it, but it is wrong. I made NO threats. The guy in the front office got scared of his own accord--probably because he saw the affair happening and felt terribly guilty--left the building and started a rumor...which caused others to leave...which caused the owner to call me. Geez, just typing it blesses my heart afresh. So rant and rave all you want about it, it sure makes my day better!

When you have your guts stomped out by an affair, a little slap on the face is not felt.

WW does not really like guns, but she EDCs a .380 for protection and is bad news with it. She does not dislike them. What she dislikes is the time I spend trading and talking about guns, knives, reloading, and politics. I was more passionate about that dumb crud than her. She said many times I was distracted. I neglected her the attention due her...the OM did not..crap, regret is the 2nd strongest emotion I feel.

I will call the Mom (not MIL) and ask her to delay the visit until we can come together...maybe part of the 30 day trip...just maybe...

My kids are going to send messages to the OM tonight and tomorrow I think--to add guilt to the pressure.

I have NOT discovered how she got the info about the OM at work--emails are clean. had to be on her phone, text, or FB, maybe my FB??? I changed my FB password today. She was snooping in my sent items folder this am when I got out of the shower.

Got the VAR today. Gotta learn how to work it now.

Keep the advice and encouragement coming. Gotta run.

Um... dude... isn't this what I have said, exactly.... TWICE?

No. Her place is with you. You can't work on this while you're apart. She doesn't need 'space'.

Thank you.

Not directed to YOU maritalbliss,,but as a general comment---

How about some help, using Dr Harley's concepts & principles, to rebuild his marriage!!!

Just to clarify;

My suggestion to sell the collection would remain the same were it Beanie Babies, Coins, or Raggedy Ann Dolls... whether it was a husband or a wife.

It is pretty standard MB advice that when a hobby or recreational activity interferes with UA time, or causes resentment within a marriage the solution is to END THE HOBBY/ACTIVITY.

It has been suggested about Golf, Video Games, Political Activism, Collector's Pins...


The actual hobby or activity is irrelevant when compared to the damage potential it carries in a broken and/or stressed marriage.

WW is getting about 20 calls and 50 texts or FB messages a day now. She gets seriously pissed each time one comes in. She is getting madder and madder about the exposure. It has ruined the fun of the affair for now though, and this is the longest she has gone without seeing him since things got physical--a whopping 7 days.

The OM's workplace has been on "lockdown" for the last few days. Surely he is catching hell from everyone there...I hope.

WW is getting info about OM's workplace from another lady there in the office via phone calls.

I'm intercepting texts and some conversations over the phone indicating she is very serious about moving out to a friends little casita. When I asked her about it, she said it is not about the OM, she just needs space and to prove she can make it alone, and get out from my control as a weak codependent. The lady she is talking to at the OM's work is a strong lesbian. Move out day was going to be today but my son leaving for deployment with the Navy got in the way. I asked he to give it 5 days and then move out next Tuesday if she still thinks she has to. She agreed. She nets about $2k per month. Casita will run $500.

So...does this put me in plan B when she goes? Questions....
1. what is the best way to handle bank accounts?
2. do I need to file legal paperwork?
3. do I continue to plan to snoop?
4. love actions for the next 5 days?
5. I want to keep her at home as long as possible right?
6. She wants to keep the new car, and I think it is a good idea just because it is a $350 per month payment and will be a burden to her--but it is in my name, what do you think?

I am really hurting with this and I have a lot of things to do, so if I can get some advice on the best way to prep things for her departure without having to do hours of research that would sure help.

One bite at a time ....


Sell it.
She will stop making payments and you will be stuck.
How old is the "new car"?

She wants to keep the new car, and I think it is a good idea just because it is a $350 per month payment and will be a burden to her--but it is in my name, what do you think?

WHAT DO I THINK?????

I think if she moves out to Casa Sappho, she goes on foot! Non-negotiable, unaddressable pending a divorce settlement - your (titled) vehicle stays with you!

And while you're at it - did you isolate all financial accounts from her access yet?

Close all fast/easy credit sources. Yesterday.
Divide the current fluid assets into thirds.
Take 2/3 and put into a new account. Leave 1/3 in the current WW-accessable account.

Do you have a bank safe-deposit box?
Get one.
Put stuff in it.

Marriage license.
Birth certificates.
Deeds.
Pink slips.
Passports (hers too).

Keep the car and don't help her in any way. Move your money to a safe place so she doesn't plunder you. Just tell her you love her and don't want h to move. Tell your children and family and friends that "WW is moving out so she can resume her affair without interference."

Do they take adultery into account in your state in divorce actions?

Yes. You continue Operation Investigate until YOU enter Plan B. You only enter Plan B by your slow & deliberate and well prepared decision. Not yet. Too soon by miles.

Naturally. You're in Plan A, aren't ya?
She has NOT closed her bank to you .... so keep making those efforts. Flexing your MB muscles is very "Leadership" worthy of you.

Correct-o-mundo, kimo-sabe.

She's like Dorothy who does not know the power of those Ruby Slippers.

"There's no place like home."

Probably not.
Do not allow her to take the kids.
Once she tries that skunk-like behavior (messing with the kids), jump to the legal agenda.

MTW - a question.

Is WW still wearing her wedding rings?
If yes ...
If no .... put those in the bank box too.
And, take the wedding/family albums to a safe place.

They all know OM's name, correct?
Regarding the minor children still in school .... YOU go to their school and ask to speak to the dean.
Tell the dean about WW's infidelity and her decision to abandon the kids for OM.
YES, it is vital !
Ask the dean for his/her support. Ask the dean to tell you right away if anyone notices any change of behavior in your children. Give the person in charge YOUR contact information.
Tell the dean that your #1 concern is the health & welfare of your children.
This is vital.

*Applaud* MTW your getting good advice and heeding it. Stay the course keep being receptive. As for the scary co workers, fire OM he's too much drama at the work place. Rooting for ya!

There is not much money to speak of--I am a minister with 3 expensive hobbies remember?

Very little credit left in any CCs--call and close them? Or remover her from them?

So keep the joint bank accounts and just get me another by myself, leaving 1/3 in the joint accts?

If she wants the new car can I not just transfer it to her? I don't want it, mine is paid for. We have not a made a payment yet? It is a 2009.

Cell phones, health insurance, auto insurance, life insurance? All that goes? Will be interpreted as hateful.

Household goods and furniture? Divvy up?

I have all our important docs stored at the house--why the move to a bank box? I hate banks. Is this in case I get removed and charged with some sort of DV?

I will contact the school. Kids know the name and workplace of the OM--they told her they never want to meet the rotten [censored].

Know nothing about D laws here.

She is still wearing the wedding rings. She hugs me back when I hug her. If I freaking lose it and cry, it makes her cry too--but I try not to get down around her.

Hoping she does not go, but feel I should prepare.

Wait for other advice & here's mine. DO NOT LET HER TAKE ANYTHING. She is moving out and abandoning a 23 year marriage and her family for OM right? So let him foot the bill for her living standards. Letting her take anything is feeding the affair, if she wants to live comfortably she should stay her a$$ home and work the MB program. Close all accounts and open new ones with out her. Keep that friggin' car! As far as insurance let her have it until you D. Keep the important docs at a bank in your name. Why? So, she doesn't have access to them in case she wants to bolt with your kids or trump up a bogus DV charge. No furniture for her, Rent A Center can help her. Honestly, anything you do financially to assist her will be assiting that affair and ENABLING her. Show her how life is without you babysitting and financing her illusion. Wait for others to chime in but I'm sure we are on the same page.

If she wants the new car can I not just transfer it to her?

Reverend, right now you and the creature formerly known as your wife are at war. Her previous lifestyle facilitated her infidelity and betrayal; you must do all in your power to ruin that life. She leaves with some of her clothes, and the burden of knowing she is doing all this damage to herself. If her cell is under your plan, remove it. Let her try to create a life on $2K/month, starting from ZERO!

ETA: Buy her a cheap $2.99 Bible as a going-away present.

Pardon my French ....
Oh hell no.
Those items are parts of the marriage. You and the children are going to enjoy your home "as is".
She is abandoning the marriage.
She can take her clothing, her toiletries, and a suitcase.

Google away.
Your state + divorce laws

Hug her a LOT.

NG, you need your own column in the local paper. "How it is with NeverGuessed."

Exactly, The Art of War, my friend.

I hope she stays. She's wrong to move away when her children and her husband need her.
But, if she goes, the same day you change the locks.
Make her decision to abandon you and the kids *sting hard*.

If she does not fall hard & fast, her wrongness lasts longer.

1. A cell phone is a luxury not a necessity. She can buy her own service.
2. Health insurance is a necessity not a luxury. Do not cancel her health insurance.
3. Auto insurance on a machine she is not driving? Not a problem. Pay the insurance if she is not driving it. I'm certain one of your teenagers has his eye on that car. LOL (damn kids)

Hateful? Consequences are thus.
You do the crime, you do the time.
She is making bad choices.

OK. Do I ask for the wedding rings when she goes? I could melt them down and cast a bullet that I could save for special purposes in plan C.

Man I hate this. I wish I'd been more proactive when I read His Needs Her Needs 8 years ago.

No, You want her to keep wearing those rings as a reminder of her commitment before God. When you have the chance, kiss those rings and say something like; "I love that we married each other for life."

I wish I'd been more proactive...

Emotional attention that needs direction toward more immediate concerns, my friend.

(Don't imagine you're unique in that. From where do you think the alias "NeverGuessed" arose?)

MTW, don't let her take any furniture or household money without a court order. She will have to continue to pay her share of the bills. You can't just leave your home and stop paying the bills.

P.s if she does move, which I doubt she will, I predict she will be back soon. Most don't leave but most threaten to leave.

MTW,

I see in your location that you are in AZ as well, I�m in Tucson myself. Our state is a 50/50 state and it's no fault so you can't even bring her infidelity into the case. I think it is utterly stupid that the destruction of a marriage through such a giant sin is an abomination and the problem with marriages in our country now days. As for any of the other recommendations I don�t know about those yet since my WW is still living in the house with us, even if she has moved to the guest room. Good luck with your WW mine has no interest in recovering our marriage but yet I am still trying. Have no expectations, just work Plan A and to be the best husband/father you can be and if she doesn�t come around then at least you will know you did everything you could.

Stone

Nothing is working for pain today. Tried reciting some verses, short prayers, forgiving everyone again, talked to some friends, pain just keeps building inside.

I have not given up control/expectations/intentions of changing this thing by acting right--and you can tell me to do it all day but I got no idea how the hell to do it.

She has specific plans and a date.

She has no intentions of helping with bills here--how do you ensure that happens?

Five days to plan A. Hope you have mega monumental plans for the next 5 days. She is still allowing hugs!!! You have major access to the LB to be affectionate... In your case your wife very well might appreciate a diamond ring! Does she appreciate flowers??? Can you arrange for the kids to spend some time elsewhere? At least maybe for a couple of days.

Don't have any really wise words for you. I know from which you speak.

All I can give you is my experience. I was not very good at not talking relationship stuff. Tried to always talk, paint a good picture, etc. etc.

Really all I did was keep her anger/depression/disgust/sadness about our past in the forefront, skewing her memories. Seemed natural to do at the time, but it at best didn't help and I think hurt.

I know it doesn't make it easy, and I doubt you will be able to pull it off completely, no one can in my experience. You are heartbroken, your life and vision of the future was destroyed and the one you love did it, and she cared and cares nothing for your feelings at present. I and everyone that has been or is in our shoes knows what you are saying.

But be sure of this, all she will see is your actions, at first because she thinks you are conning her about changing again, then in anger because you are changing, then hopefully in love because you have changed.

Words won't do it at all. A broken, nonfunctional man won't do it.

I truly loving and changed hero will.

Guess you're taking a dip on the roller coaster. Re: giving up control; PRAY. I know it's not easy. I had a majorly hard time doing that (praying), but truly it's the only thing that kept me out of the looney bin.

Honestly, if people are gonna keep recommending he buy his WW in withdrawal or current affair, that is planning on moving out, a present, make it a card or flowers.

Cheaper when she throws them in the trash.

haha.. very true, I'd have to agree with the common sense on that one.

Pain is real.
Go for a run.
Do something physical.
Call your pastor and schedule a meeting.

I'm so very sorry.

Like I said, they usually don't leave. But I would let her know that she will have to legally continue to help pay the bills. She can't just abandon them along with her children.

What are her plans for visitation with the kids? She doesn't think she is taking the kids, does she?

And I know you feel bad today, but you are closer today to reconciliation than you were last week. There are no guarantees but this is far from over.

Infidelity plays a role in child custody

If it is any comfort, when I was a WW I had a date when I was going to leave too. We had place to live, decided what to take with us and what we would do with our rings.

I didn't leave.

I have no contact with affair person.

And I'm glad.

You don't know how your story will end.....be strong MTW.

Sorry for your pain.

FF has a nice point there, MTW. I don't know her particular situation but logically your the better choice for your wife and in time she will see that. Follow through with your Plan A. Carrot and stick! You have history good and bad with your wife. Also, if I'm not mistaken you have children. May not look like it but has Dr. Harley has said many a time on the radio show you have the upper hand. I know it doesn't feel like it but you do.

Thanks again for all the good words and advice. Reminding me I had 5 days to work the heck out of the carrot motivated me to get moving again.

I think the pain comes from a sort of "pre-grief" --in trying to give up control (let go) I think you have to go through the grief of what has not yet happened in order to accept it may happen???

One of you mentioned becoming neutral on her leaving to "take the punishment out of it." I did that. Told her if she had to leave we'd handle it with respect and there was no need to sneak etc. I really think giving up control on the issue made a difference to her.

Can't do much Fri-Sat due to her schedule and my daughters 18th birthday, so I got the kids farmed out last night and set up a candle lit dinner at the house.

She started crying right when she came in and sat down--asking me "why the exposure?" again. Had a hard time eating because she wanted to talk a little and that leads to tears. She did tell me she was planning on leaving that night, but would wait.

She says she cannot go because the OM says I will go crazy and kill him if she moves out--not the ideal motivator, but I'll take anything I can get. I refuse to calm any of their fears, but do not say anything to add to them. If she does move out I fear OM will advise her to get an Order of Protection and that will really screw up my job hunt.

I gently introduced the topic of finance and possessions in the event of her leaving. She seemed a little surprised at how little I would allow her to take but did not get mad--it made her really think, I think. She mentions the kids as well--but there will only be one Sr. at home next year so I think it is easy for her to minimize the devastation it will cause them in her mind.

So...when she came down this am to get ready for work she initiated a hug. I walk her to the car each am, look her in the eye, and speak the best edifying words I can come up with the night before as sincerely as possible--today she teared up and said "I'm not going anywhere today, so try to have a good day and don't worry about it."

Daughters 18th b-day is tonight. She works Sat am, I have to work Sun am. Any fresh ideas on what to do next are appreciated.

Is she still in contact with the OM?

I will say this, I wish I had been able to do 1/10 as well as you are.

Don't prove me wrong, but I honestly think you get it as well, no, far better than any I have talked to on here. Not as many as some have, but enough to know that you are a rare exception.

Don't minimize your feelings. You are already grieving, The grief I felt was orders of magnitude greater than anything I have ever felt before. I can't imagine anything except maybe the loss of on of my children or grandchild could compare, thankfully I don't know that.

It appears that you are making an impression. Remember, that is the goal.

Also, remember that if she sees anything, real or blown out of proportion, that she can construe into thinking it is an act, she may do it. So, stay strong. If I can tell anything over the googleweb, I know you have really taken this and used it to address things in you. She will see that too, already does.

A firm, steady force will move things farther than short bursts followed by nothing. Keep your shoulder to wheel. You have a purpose.

Awesome post, Herb...

i just caught a bit of this, but on yesterday's radio show, Dr Harley was discussing how a BS may have a grounds for a lawsuit if his spouse has a workplace affair with her boss and it leads to divorce. Wasn't the OM her boss or something?

I see no signs of contact with the OM since the exposure in the workplace on 04/09. But I cannot check emails at her work computer and she uses her friends phone at work too--the other cheater.

I told the other cheater's husband, so now she is coaching my wife on how to better cover her tracks.

The OM was the general manager of the business--not a direct supervisor, but in management.

Thanks for the good words Herb.

I know my actions are working on her. The exposure was a huge set back in that department, but a huge gain in killing the fun and fantasy of the ongoing affair. Prior to the exposure, the ongoing comms and 'love' with the OM were working better/stronger. I am hoping now that the exposure has sucker punched the affair somewhat, my actions can work and effect things much better.

I will tell you this: I second guess the exposure twice a day--it is a battle between wisdom and emotion--really have to focus on the facts to see it's value. 2 people that have been through affairs contacted me immediately and said they totally knew why I was doing it and that an urgent sense of 'drasticness' was 100% warranted.

It is easy to second guess when you have to see and hear the explosion up close and I understand completely. We are not concerned because we have seen this play out for years. It is very much like the bartender cutting off the alcoholic at the bar. The alcoholic is FURIOUS and his rage is very scary, but as he sobers up you can see how it was necessary. And so does the alcoholic eventually. A recovered wayward wife will not be angry about exposure. Rather she will THANK YOU for it. Her anger is due to the fog, so don't let it bother you.

Your marriage can survive her temporary anger over exposure but it can't survive an affair, so just keep that in mind when you face her anger. That anger is a good thing right now, because it means you have inflicted a major blow to the affair. The goal was to save your marriage, not to avoid her anger.

You have to remember this. While there was (or is) contact, your marriage is doomed. Not as good as dead, but dead.

Don't forget this. You have to look at it this way, because it is true. The marriage you had, the one that you want to think you had, is dead, gone, never to be again.

But this is good, because look where it led you.

If you get the chance to remain married, you have two choices. Start from scratch and do it correctly, or go back to something like before.

This wondering about what you did is off based.

Your mistake was not in exposing and dropping a bomb on her secret world. Your mistake was all the years leading up to it.

Believe me, I know about the kinds of thoughts you are having. I identify with you, you are much like me. A good man before, one that didn't do a good job with meeting his wife's EN's, but more out of ignorance. Never "mistreated" her, just the opposite. But the things that to you seemed like should be appreciated just bounced off.

You will grieve the past and loss of the future. But don't romanticize either. The past got you here, and if the future was to be just an extension of that, then good riddance, right.

You have done and are doing the right things. Time to blow up that mess and rebuild.

WW used to say I was "distracted" an awful lot. I basically neglected to treat her like the treasure she is. So that was the most common thing I heard prior to the A.

But now, the single biggest block to her (LB really) seems to be disrespectful judgments aka control to her. She talks about being under my thumb. Always being passively coerced into doing things my way. Never being loved and celebrated for who she really is. "I can convince anybody of anything."

I was able to ease into a discussion about the POJA and how if I had a 2nd chance to meet her needs that would really help keep me from being so controlling (disrespect judgements and independent behavior LBs). I think it made her think.

Anyway, is there such a thing as EPs for the BH? A sort of "things the BH promises to address concerning the WW issues?"

The short answer is "Yes"

It is called Marriage Builders

Although now it may seem like everything on MB is about the Surviving An Affair part, the meat of it is:

His Needs, Her Needs
Lovebusters
Fall in Love, Stay in Love

You already mentioned POJA, that is just on of the tools

Oh, and thanks for the exposure reminders--I do go back over the clear facts and sound reasons when my emotions start to carry me off.

Ongoing contact with the OM is my biggest concern right now. I am checking texts, emails, debit purchases, VAR under the seat, and a logger is on the way--but again, 90% of contact has been at work computer--I just catch that it has happened in the texts between WW and WW friend.

I searched the car and purse for second phone, as well as purchase records...and new charging cords, but found nothing.

I did procure protocols for the work email, but it is all on a local exchange sever so it is a no go for now.

POJA during recovery is the GRAND DADDY of EPs.
POJA basically prohibits you from doing anything that will displease your wife.
And visa versa.

Dude, your house is on fire (the affair). You cannot go out and buy the lumber to rebuild your house until the flames are extinguished and there are no dangerous still hot embers.

Dr Harley was discussing how a BS may have a grounds for a lawsuit if his spouse has a workplace affair...

Mel, I posted this on 09 April:

...but would leave those details in the hands of my legal representation in the "inappropriate workplace" lawsuit that was in process.

This long-overdue legal construct is slowly gaining traction in the various jurisdictions, varying in viability and intensity by geography. The poster would have to engage legal counsel (as mentioned) to discover the state of the concept in his State.

MTW, you are doing a great job of selling your marriage and I want to applaud you. You might even print up an article about the POJA that shows her how this works in action. I would explain to her that capitulation is just as bad for marriages as control. If she can commit to stop capitulating you can commit to stop controlling and learn how to negotiate agreements that make you both happy.

I would also tell her that you know of a program that creates a passionate, romantic marriage. She won't believe it for now, but I would tell her you never want that old, dead marriage back. Tell her you want a marriage where there is romantic love; no controlling and no sacrifice.

A watch out, though. Most waywards complain of being "controlled" when their BS tries to interfere with their affair. So don't let that complaint prevent you from taking necessary affair busting steps.

I am not a betrayed spouse, but it seems like a normal response to second guess your exposure. Your marriage might NOT survive. If it does not, and you did NOT expose , I am most certain you would be saying, "But what if I HAD exposed at the work place...maybe that would have helped push her out of the fog."

My biggest complaint to my spouse were the disrespectful judgements /trying to control me. I wanted to be understood and accepted by him, not constantly told how to think, feel, act, live, etc. I sound JUST like your wife.

My husband has really taken ownership of this...but it took at least a year from exposure to get there. I am going to ask him to come here and see if he has any helpful words for you.

My husband just retired from 20 years in the military and his heart's desire was full time Christian ministry. I felt our entire marriage that he would rather be at the church doing something for God than to be with me. And I began to despise church, missions, and maybe even God.

I was skeptical he would sustain his changes. When he stopped telling me , "Look what I'm doing ! See how I'm changing ! Admire me NOW", and just quietly worked on himself, then I really began to think he is doing this for HIM and not to win me back or coerce me to stay. And I admire him for that.

There is much to look forward to in your life MTW !

Blessings,
FF

And you can print this out and show it to her when the time is right: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8114_plan.html

And another thing :

This talk of the OM being scared you'll kill him and maybe taking out a protective order...just makes him look like the cowardly weasel he is.

This is GOOD news !

If your WW thinks about it, she will see he is cowardly. If he loves her so much and wants her so badly, why isn't he saying, "I'll stand up for you and fight for you".

I'll tell you why: because he is a cowardly weasel.

Again. GOOD news for you

Agree with this. And I would tell her that you will WELCOME a restraining order because that will give you an opportunity to air his affair in court. He is a member of management and she is a female subordinate so his affair with her will not reflect well on him! Feed her this kind of scary stuff so it will get back to the OM.

Good job.

Wow, thanks again for the encouragement--thought of you all when reading Prov. 12:18 today.

No wood while the house is still burning--check.

Forget the old marriage--check--I have been telling her, "You're going to get a new lover no matter what you decide, but I think one choice comes with a lot less pain."

Restraining Order come back--very good, thanks.

FF--the piece on control and BH not doing stuff to force back love is spot on--kind of slippery and hard to keep the motives and behavior lined up right all the time though. I don't have real good acuity on it, but I can tell when I say things about me growing and moving forward with no expectations on her it is well received and intriguing to her. Maybe you guys could come over for dinner tomorrow:).

I asked the same question a while back. WW explained that it makes her so mad when I scare and control people into not fighting, then call them names for being scared to fight--see how controlling I am, I am doubly controlling!

You know how it is, any bad trait I try to point out about the OM is just received as a manipulative controlling attempt to force WW to stay in misery and give up her new life of fun and adventure.

I'm in the same boat in that respect MTW. "Your just jealous! All of that is just speculation! If I find anyone else you will find something wrong with him too!" That's just a few. I like to think that she says those things to trigger and argument then run to POSOM for comfort and fortify "POSOM will be different with me" fantasy.

I don't know if there is ever a clean separation between ulterior and internal motives. Honestly, for me anyway, the driving force in the beginning, overwhelmingly so, was to do things to save my marriage, period. So, don't beat yourself up. But, the best way to save your marriage also happens to be the way that makes you a better man and husband, so that works out well

The key is permanent changes, not an means to an end. I think I always wondered if I was really changing because I remembered myself from before. But, I can tell you are a spiritual man that will listen to God now that he has your undivided attention again.

MTW, does WW like music?
Sometimes a well selected playlist, downloaded and dedicated to her .... ????

Just a suggestion. (warning, emotional content)



Build her a playlist of music on a CD ... "Baby, this is for you."

Awesome idea Pep! You did great on the dinner MTW. But listen up and listen good (or read.. haha) STOP. THE. TEARS. Cry in private. Your wife needs to see you strong and in control.

What about a love letter sprayed with her favorite cologne? And what about doing some of her chores and freeing up some of her time. Then you two can maybe go for a walk and reminisce. Try not to talk about POSOM or the affair. Do not give him that much time. Use whatever time you have to make LB deposits. If she lets you hold hands do it. Hug, do it. Arm around the shoulder, do it. Kiss on the forehead do it. Look in the eyes do it (no tears with this one). Flowers at work!

Once again, I say tread lightly with all that lovey-dovey stuff.

A WW in withdrawal (or still in contact) is a different thing than a BW. Or a FWW in recovery.

Heed the Kahuna.

Hmmm. I have 0 musical ability or knowledge. I just don't have any idea what songs to put together.

Herb--you are onto me. I never allowed the church to castrate me, but I am serious about faith and transparent about my faults. I got no stomach for the rules driven high religion but I seriously appreciate Christ and will follow Him at all costs.

I never cry first, but when she starts crying I do. I cried maybe twice in 23 years before this--I think she kinda likes to see there is a real heart in there?

I'm doing lost of chores and shopping and cleaning and cooking and running kids and finances and fix up projects.

I did flowers at work one week, an edible arrangement the next, a fancy basket of nuts and trail mix the next--she came home real mad and said "Why are you doing all this now? Now I'm gonna look like the bad person!" So I stopped sending things to work.

I can do the letter with cologne thing. But get this, she bought me some cologne a week after D-Day--guess who else wears it?

She does allow affection. I can hold her hands, peck her forehead, rub her feet etc--but it's got to be throttled--she has mentioned that I smother her to much sometimes.

I know I am not supposed to monitor and hang on every facial expression, but something is going on inside her--got this look this morning and when I took in a pizza for her and her co-workers today at lunch. So the look is a sort of sad almost gonna cry thing--I believe it means either 1) I'm sorry for hurting you what have, or 2) you poor dumb man, you don't even know I'm leaving tomorrow. Something is eating her inside though.

Give her the 'ol double barrel... I personally cannot listen to this one, and once you hear it you will know why. But, I gotta wonder what it might do to a WW;



Barrel two;

If possible, I would send her a link to the second song with the comment;

"The first verse of this song really speaks to me."

What do you think the proper balance of care and humor is? Humor is ok right?

Holy crap, 2nd song is freaking tear jerker. But she has done most of the stuff the song says we've never done? Won't that just pile on guilt?

Well, I can't listen to the second verse msyelf...

You may be right about guilt... I'm not sure if that's a bad thing or not.


Mmmm... maybe skip the first.

honestly

now is not the time for manipulation.

Just be the light. no tricks. No overwhelming.

This may hurt, but remember: she is grieving now, and it ain't over you. That's what withdrawal is.

Be the light, no games.

Dang it, she is planning on moving out Tuesday. She is trying to take my youngest daughter, 16, with her.

I still have a few days, but we work each day until Tuesday.

When do I tell her what she can and can't have?

She says it is not about the OM, she just needs to prove she can make it on her own--I know, save the watches the BS is getting deep quick. She will move into the casita next to her cheating friend.

All advice welcome at this point.

Will the 16 year old go with her?


Whenever she brings it up.


Is the cheating friend leaving her husband too?

You may be right about guilt... I'm not sure if that's a bad thing or not.

When in doubt, amigos, resort to consulting the principles!

Unless WW in this case has a decidedly weird EN for "guilt" how could MTW justify botching his Plan A with this tear-jerker?

As for the question of "humor" - Dude, your goal is to be the best MTW you can be. You want her to see, maybe for the first time in YEARS, the prize she has (and dare not throw away) in YOU. If humor promotes that persona, indulge! You've done maybe the hardest, yet certainly most effective, thing - you have FOUGHT for her. Now crank up the rest of the package - Look sharp, smell good, cook well(!), be positive. NO EFF'ING CRYING!

Plan A is based on a clear either/or proposition. She either gets the marvel that is the revealed MTW, or she experiences sharing digs with a potential lesbian sweetie, on foot, in greatly reduced economic circumstances.

When she brings up division of property, just mention that you have been advised not to divide anything at this point. Any division of property or custody issues will have to be decided in court. Tell her you don't want to get involved in all that yukky legal stuff.

I am out of my element now.

I think you should tell her you wish she wouldn't go.

But remember, you aren't going to convince her by words, only actions.

Begging, pleading, and hounding are not actions that will have the desired result.

Strong, calm firm love will.

The time really gets compressed in these things. It has only been a few days, so years worth of issues just don't disappear immediately.

Here's where the strength comes in. You know where to get it from.

All you control is you.

Good words, thanks.

The 16 year old told her heck no, she will not go. WW mentioned the loneliness. The OM works 11-12 hour days.

As for humor, at times WW has complained that I am no fun--too straight laced with the religion and all--then she complains that I am not sincere enough when edifying her too--like I say it with too much humor.

Went on a long walk with her just now--she was in the talking mood. Talks openly of the internal struggle, how wrong it is, but how much she loves him and cannot turn it off. I keep reminding her I am asking for a chance to start a new marriage--not go back.

I asked he if she has been in contact with the the OM. She says she has sent several emails (since the exposure on 04/08)from her work computer but that HE WILL NOT REPLY. She acknowledge how depressed she is. She says he is scared I will go berserk--says I am the 'silent crazy killer type.' I do appreciate that. None the less, I think she figures if she moves out he will start talking to her again--and she is dying for that.

I need to keep the pressure on the OM I think. Is it advisable to have my dad call the OM, his parents, or his work?

Other ideas on keeping some pressure on the OM?

Thanks again, you all are stabilizing my heart more than you know.

I feel that so many of you have been though/are going through such pain and suffering, I am humbled and blessed that you still give, still help, shoulder some of mine for me--THANK YOU.

I think I hear remnants of a retired Marine??? I'm on it, but the cooking thing is a challenge.

If you can handel profanity, I recommend this site. Everything is spelled out pretty simply.

http://www.cookingcomically.com/

MTW,

I have followed your thread and you are have been getting great advice and you are doing really well.

I have one observation to add because I am concerned about how often your WW is bringing up possible violence, guns, controlling ways etc.

I have. A fear that your WW is trying to set you up to look like an unhinged BH so she can justify her actions and maybe use it against you at some point if you divorce.

Please be wary and invest in a VAR that you keep on you at all times when talking to your WW. This is a necessary step to protect yourself against future allegations she may bring against you. It's really wise to be extra safe when dealing with comments like the ones she is making .

Your WW is in a fog and she is not to be trusted so please be safe.

Caught her texting under the covers at 1:30 am. It was the OM. Lots of stuff about how much they love and miss each other. How am I supposed to respond to this when I catch them?

He is scared to continue but willing. Says I will sue his Co. and he will get fired. I told WW I was considering that--she went beserk again and stormed down to sleep on couch. Should I move ahead with such an endeavor, or just let their fears run wild?

MTW,

Tell your wife that her texting the OM in front of you is disrespectful. Tell her to take it outside your home.

WW is angry right now that you are interfering with the affiar. What legal recourse might you have with the company? If you don't have any, I would still let their "fears run wild".

Please heed the previous advice about getting a VAR to record your conversations. There are many WW's who have made unfounded abuse accusations.

AM

I have the VARs one for the car and 1 for me--just not used to having it handy at any moment. Do you try to hide the personal VAR?

She is maddest yet. New record for F bombs from the pastor's wife for sure.

She woke up ranting. She said if I will not file suit then she will not leave. "Just leave him the hell alone!" Not sure what to make of that??? She cannot make good on that promise, she will just get sneakier...right?

MTW,

FWIW: after I exposed, my W said similar things to me..."leave POS alone"...."POS didn't do this, I did..."..."this is between us, NOT POSOM..."

(I putzed for @ 4 months before I exposed).

In her anger after exposure, she even said to ME: "...well, you better watch your back now...".!!! "Defending the POSOM over ME...are you kiddin' me???

It's the fog of withdrawal, of the reality that the fantasy is being destroyed, ending...and WS's will delay, delay, delay with outward explosions for doing what they KNOW they must do eventually: look INWARD and face what they've done.

Now, 2 years after....my W has thanked me for exposing and killing the A, and even (not angrily) stated: "I wish you hadn't waited so long to do it."

HUGE fissure in the warm-fuzzy-adultery-fantasy-life.

This is a HUGE insight into her needs!!!!
Use this to your advantage to work the *carrot* of Plan A. Your wife has conversation high on her EN list. I know she will resist, but do your best to get her to talk. You can just listen.

Your wife is actually reaching out to you ..... "I want more fun", "I need more laughs", "I want to share my feelings", etc.

This is an opening to work the MB with her (without her knowing) ...

"WW, remember when you shared how crazy you think I might become? Violent even? Well, I want to thank you for sharing with me honestly. I am crazy. I am crazy that I did not meet your needs during our marriage. I am crazy that I was not more affectionate, more communicative, and more empathetic. This experienced has humbled me and opened my eyes to my failings. Everyone fails sometime in their life. Everyone eventually will require the grace of forgiveness, sometime in life. I am praying that you will be open to forgiving me someday. Not now. Someday. Our marriage deserves another chance. We have too much beauty and love available right here, at our fingertips to just give up without fighting for our family. We've always taught our kids to try their best, even when things are difficult. You and I need to show (name each child) that we will try our BEST to save this family, our marriage, our love for each other. I know I can do better. You are worth fighting for, but I am not going to become violent. Ours is more of a spiritual fight. So, thanks for being honest. I'm here to listen anytime."

Something like that ......

I am developing a great *like* for your wife. I appreciate her enthusiasm.

She had dreams. Later in the day ask if she's been having disturbing dreams. You can say something like:

"I noticed your sleep is so very restless and it seems like your dreams are bad. I'm so sorry for this. Maybe I can fix you some warm milk before bed tonight?"



Oo-la-la-la MrTurdo thinks you are going to file a complaint with his workplace to get his butt fired !!!!! That also means they are communicating somehow.

Never speak to WW about the behind-the-scenes *gentle nudging* you are providing for OM. Feign innocence. Change the subject.

OM is in HOT water from the higher-ups.
He has breached some work place rules.

In other words, WW is saying:

If you file a sexual harassment complaint against OM, I will leave.

Blackmail.

(this is entirely my opinion and I could be wrong ....)

...I could be wrong....

(I'm archiving this for someday when I will remind you of this, Pep!)

But in this matter, you are spot on. And blackmail is the most insidious form of control possible. Giving in on this will NOT keep her in the marriage; at best it will postpone her getting with POSOM until after the heat he feels blows over.

The way to prevent that is to TURN UP the heat, and burn off the undergrowth that he's scurried beneath.

Lawyer up, friend, and torch that sucker!

This is very encouraging--needed to hear it--thanks for sharing, thanks.

What-ev-ah. Duck you suck'a.

She is starting to snoop on my computer to see what emails I am sending to who. She seems very worried that I will secretly pursue action against the OM.

I texted the OM last night as soon as I caught them txting and respectfully asked him to stop and let us work thing out for our family. I re-emphasized that i was not going away and would win the fight for her eventually.

I think I'll change my username in case she finds this site.

I did find texts to her friend with a solid plan to move on Tuesday--I don't think it was idle talk.

I checked her iphone thoroughly last night. She has 36 pics of her and OM and pics of fav txt msgs in a Photo Vault. I emailed the password, opened them, and emailed me a bunch--in case needed some day. Nothing dirty (I Have no illusions about what they do, just saying they are not taking dirty pics and sexting...yet), just together in his truck and lovey dovey txts.

The argument with her cussing and yelling at me to let her go and me saying I'd like to work on the marriage and save the family will be on the car VAR at this point, so I am starting to gather evidence I guess.

Did you go to the school yet?

Send emails that compliment your wife's beauty, intelligence, etc to a few people. Then, change passwords to lock your 'puter..
Keep her off your computer.
Now is not the time for O&H as you work Plan A and prepare Plan B.

YES .... change your user name to something banal. Something so much like other user names .... Hurt2 or SoLostNow ....

I have read and reread Pepper--thanks. I am not too far off already, but there are good parts I can add.

Here's the thing though. I tried the whole "I won't be violent" thing the 1st 5 weeks. Each time I assured her I would not be violent she would go see him. So now I just avoid the issue--do not say either way. Fear ain't the best, but it is a motivator.

Left a message, administration was unavailable that day.

You found their achilles heel, dude!! Go for the jugular. Go consult an attorney about bringing a lawsuit against the OM's company for their part in the ruination of your marriage. Tell her today you are seeing an attorney next week to file a lawsuit against the OM company. Do you have alienation of affection in your state? Go for that too!! It costs nothing to have a consult but you can get some good legal information to pass onto your wife that she will pass onto the OM. Tell her things that scare the hell out of him.

And yes, you and your dad should call on OM's parents. CAn you go VISIT them today with your 16 year old daughter? Ask them to persuade their scummy son to leave your wife alone.

And most of all, tell your wife she is to NEVER EVER contact the OM in you and your daughters home again. How disrespectful!@ Say that in front of your DD, too. She will have to LEAVE your house to contact her "ADULTERY PARTNER." And be sure and refer to him as her "adultery partner."

OK

Here is the message you should send to rat boy:

This was to told to me somewhere by MelodyLane back in the day. I can't find it but I remember it because it woke me up.

I was still under the delusion that somehow my actions towards her affair would affect what she did. Mel told me basically,

"Herb, you don't want to hear this, but if she and OM shack up, it will likely be the best thing to end the affair."

See, then the fantasy becomes reality. She lives with the fact that her daughter is disgusted with her and doesn't want to be around. She sees that OM is really just another Dumb [censored] man that stinks up the bathroom and leaves stuff laying around, and tries to tell her what to do. The reality is awful.

Not saying I think her leaving is good. I am saying to remember what I have been saying. You only control you.

Her decision will come when the affair is over. As long as you have used the means you have to expose it and put the full pressure on it, then there is not really anything you can do except what you make of you.

But you really need to start deciding what you should do. You are doing a stellar plan A. This is exacting a large toll on you. At some point, you will have to stop it if she continues the affair. When that point is, you have to decide.

Continue Plan A, you can as long as you want, but don't go too long if you want to reconcile.

Plan B if you want. You will start to think clearly, if nothing else.

If the worst plays out in the next few days, no one would blame you if you decided you'd had enough. Plan D is an option, morally and otherwise. I will say this, it is good to be the one setting the timetable and driving the train in a D, even if you hope to eventually reconcile.

You have to be the one to decide where you are. Our, well my advice, is limited to what the plans are. You have to decide the path.

Alienation of affections was first codified as a tort by the New York state legislature in 1864, and similar legislation existed in many U.S. states in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Since 1935, this tort has been abolished in 42 states, including New York.[1] Alienation is, however, still recognized in Hawaii, Illinois, North Carolina, Mississippi, New Mexico, South Dakota, and Utah.[citation needed]" here

So you are saying press the issue? Not sure if I even have anything legit. I think as soon as I do, he will whine to her, then she will leave.

Her leaving is kind of a good thing about now though right??? How concerned should I be about that?

I was thinking I'd just wait until she slips up again, then say, ok I am moving forward with the suit--you have left me no choice.

And we are sure that a light whupping is never a good idea? Seriously, some guys think a little whupping would really scare him off.

You'll get arrested.
WW will slap you with an "order of protection" to stay away from her.
You will need to move out.
WW will be living in your house inviting OM over for dinner & to meet the kids.
You will incur a lot of legal fees.

Sound good?

I don't remember what his position is, but if the is even a hint of a reason that a lawsuit would be legitimate I would see a lawyer. The lawyer may laugh you out of his office, but only you will know that.They will know "He has seen a lawyer to discuss a lawsuit."

You still are hung up on the notion that preventing her from leaving is the goal. You won't prevent jack. She controls what she does.

You goal is to be the light, to fight the affair, be the moral, loving, firm and strong man that leads you and your daughter out of this mess. Your wife will have to decide to come along.

Thanks Herb. This is what i am thinking too. Just let her go and have the dang thing fall apart...but there are fears.

Thing is, I kind of feel like a quitter by promulgating plan B without giving plan A 6 months???

Let's say I turn the heat up on the OM all I can. WW leaves. Am I in Plan B at that point or is there still a period of comms. even while apart? When I read the book, I though when they leave, it is slid Plan B.

I am open to advice and clarification here.

Tell her that you are not only going to pursue a lawsuit, but you are exploring alienation of affection. Then go visit his parents today with your dad and your daughter. Tell her you will sue his company to the moon and will only let up if he stays away. You have all the leverage here, HE HAS NONE!!


Believe it or not, leaving will kill this affair FASTER. So don't worry about that. I don't think she really will leave, but if she does, the affair will crumble faster.


You need to move this forward NOW or she won't take you seriously.


Hell no! He deserves it but you don't want to end up in jail and then the OM can move into your home!!

I have a list of eager volunteers to handle it for me...but I guess i do not want jail for any of them either. I figured it was out of the question.

You need to be in Plan A for a long time. Don't even worry about Plan B for now. For now, you stay in there and compete with ratboy. All the odds are on you and let me explain why. 95% of affairs crumble within 2 years because the very traits that make them possible, thoughtlessness, selfishness, deceit eventually make their way into the affair and destroy it. Just think, 2 people who have no respect for vows are getting together. At the first sign of trouble it will go down in flames fast. On the other hand, 65% of marriages that experience affairs reconcile. So the odds are you. You are competing against a fantasy that will crumble under the light of reality. You can win this.

Here is where mine and your stories are different enough that I feel a little shaky in advising you. But, I don't think Plan B necessarily has to be immediate. But I think, for me anyway, that the hurt and giant cuts that the situation would make in me would likely make it a necessity pretty soon.

Understand what it is. It is not a tactic to make her change, to save the marriage. It is to save you, your health and state of mind, allowing to slow down the draining of the love you are feeling, extending it as long as possible.

I posted this just the other day on a different thread, I am going to quote it here to save typing, a torturous endeavor for me.

Mel has been at this a lot longer than I. Heed her advice.

This is what I needed to hear. been thinking it, but sacred to death of it.

I have an outstanding defense Attorney, I will contact him for leads.

Dad is out state, but i will have him call OM parents.

Me and few kids will visit too--great idea.

What do you think about calling the OM's work on Monday and requesting a meeting with him? If he accepts I'd just go in and tell him he needs to stop all contact. I think being on campus will un-nerve everyone there. Even if I just call, it will send waves through the place for a second week in a row. Thoughts???

Should I send the OM a pic of he and WW together? With something like "This needs to stop. Comms lead to meetings. Back away and give our marriage the space it deserves. 0 comms period."

You rock Mel--thanks so much.

Herb--I think like you.

Like i need to save some feelings for the 6 mos-1 year it will take for the affair to crash. She is extracting massive withdrawals...I don't want to stop loving her..but I feel it starting.

The books aid you will actually feel better in B, but a lot of posts/stories on hear make it sound like a hotter level of hell.

I hold out hope that the game has been played well and the affair will crash in 6 months--right or wrong--that is the hope I hold to.

Still, I will work Plan A as long as it makes sense, but i reckon the next big thing for me is to just let her go/be willing to let her leave.

Heck, I am just balling while I type this.

A well worded "lawyer letter" sent to OM's employer ... sounds good to me.

Have you spoken to your physician about help for anxiety/depression?
Part of Plan A is self care. A LARGE part.
Do not neglect your "TAKER" .... Your Taker will eventually disrupt your Plan A unless you follow the self care rule.

This talk about "physical self help towards OM" is your TAKER revving up to ambush your Plan A for your own satisfaction.

Take heed.

Hang in there, brother!

I can tell you that you are doing much better than I did, and much quicker in your actions, than I...

The cracks in the fantasy bubble are there, and will continue to grow.

Keep the heat on as NG suggests...and do anything Mel or Pep or Marital direct you to...

Go visit his parents TODAY. Don't wait.


That might be good, but FIRST go tell your wife NOW you are seeing an attorney next week about bringing a lawsuit against the OM's company. Are you an A of A state?
Start feeding information to your wife that scares the OM.



Forward the email to the OM and cc his boss, his parents and tell him he needs to leave your wife alone and stop pursing her!

If not mistaken, he answered this earlier.
No.
"No fault".
I think he said Arizona.

hmmm, apparently, adultery is ILLEGAL in the state of Arizona!!! http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...ail-time-under-states-anti-adultery-law/

Arizona Revised Statute 13-1408

A. A married person who has sexual intercourse with another than his or her spouse, and an unmarried person who has sexual intercourse with a married person not his or her spouse, commits adultery and is guilty of a class 3 misdemeanor. When the act is committed between parties only one of whom is married, both shall be punished.

I am scared to death of them. My brother went suicidal. I drink 4 beers and the whole world is fine.

I feel like the exercising is for me, to give back to me.

I have people checking in with me almost everyday, sharing the load a little.

This is great advice from Herb. Plan B may be necessary at some point. It all depends on your state of mind. Some need to go in sooner rather than later.

Profile name changed.

Dad set up to call OM parents tonight. He will probably call the OM too.

Me and 2 Daughters headed to see OM parents now.

Message left with a laywer I trust in the area.

Will send the email to OM work and boss 1st thing Monday am.

Thanks again for the support.

Way to go!!! Saying prayers for you, my friend.

F-bombs in your future.
Wear your helmet.
Maybe your haz-mat suit.

Hi DBD

My husband got through most of your thread, and was taking notes so he could perhaps speak some encouraging words to you....but alas it became a trigger for him. He hasn't been on here for a long time, for that reason, but I thought enough time had gone by...

Sorry ! But I'll be back and I'm still cheering for you.

FF (my husband is Learning2Cherish and he says the same)

Me again. Learning2Cherish asked me to write these things to you. I will put them in quotes since they are his words to you:

"Remember that your WW was GOD'S daughter before she was YOUR wife."

"I realized I lost FF's heart long before she ever had an affair. At first I thought I had to be better than OM. But then I learned that it was getting my own heart right, and trusting God to win His "little girl's" heart back."

Also he asked me to give you these verses, which helped him in the thick of things:
Eph 5:25-29
Habakkuk 3:17-19
Ps 46:10
Jer 42:10-12

DBD,

I'm the husband of FindingFreedom. I finally made it through the whole thread (I started earlier today but had to back off for a bit when I triggered on the whole jewelry thing.) Yes, it has been 20 months and there are still triggers for me now and then.

As I reviewed this thread, I noticed many similarities in our stories. I spent 20 years in the Air Force, planned on entering full time ministry after retiring and meanwhile scratched that itch by serving in many areas of ministry as a layman. I, too, assumed my wife was �invincible��that she could handle anything. I failed to be her shelter in the storms of life. I, too, �ignored her� and �neglected to treat her like the treasure she is.� I did not meet her EN for communication and instead of encouraging her, wore her down with criticism (DJs). I did not recognize how controlling I was (SDs)�telling her how she should feel or should not feel based on biblical principles. I thought I was being her spiritual leader but I was being a spiritual bully. As I look back, I can see selfishness was the root. I just wanted to fix her problems so they would not weigh me down. I failed to listen to her with the intent of knowing her heart and of being her champion. In short, I drained her love bank dry with DJs and SDs and fell completely short of making the EN deposits she needed.

You opened your thread with 1 Cor 13:7 (�[Love] always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres�). Are you prepared to persevere, for years if necessary? You need to understand you spent at least the last three years neglecting your bride (�distracted,� �disillusioned with your career,� pursuing your hobbies). It probably began even before that. What took 3+ years to tear apart will not be rebuilt in weeks or months. You acknowledged that thinking �we�d confess, forgive, pray, commit and restore and be back on track in a week� was unrealistic. But I am sensing you still are expecting too much too soon. I know I did. I relate very much to your statement that you were �hanging on her every word, touch, facial expression for some sign of improvement.�

If our marriages are as alike as I think they are, then I believe the following advice is applicable to your situation:

1) Steel yourself up for a long, long recovery. Here are words from Dr. Harley, specifically to me that I�d venture to say are very fitting for you.

2) Keep making the changes you need to make but stop doing it with the expectation of seeing changes in your wife. Hope for it, but stop expecting it. Else she will still feel you are trying to control her.

Just be there for her. Smile at her. Listen to her but leave her alone if she does not want to talk. Give her space. Work on the things you need to work on and do it because you want to be more like Christ, not because you want to elicit a response from your wife. Keep a tender heart toward her. This is your opportunity to learn to truly love her unconditionally.

James 3: 16 For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing. 17 But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy.

Closing word of encouragement from �How to Survive an Affair� article by Dr. Harley (Chapter 13 from His Needs Her Needs�the story about Alex and Elaine), closing paragraph:
------------------------
A person who discovers his or her spouse in an affair experiences one of the most severe blows anyone could possibly sustain. It also sends both partners on an emotional roller coaster. But when a couple follow my narrow path to recovery, they often tell me that they have built a better love relationship than they ever would have had if the affair had not jolted them into constructive action. The affair provides the traumatic trigger that finally gets the couple to meet each other's basic needs. Once they start meeting those basic needs, their marriage becomes what it was supposed to have been all along.
------------------------

Increased risk of suicide/suicidal ideations are a risk with medications, but even those of the same class don't effect everyone in the same way.

You might also talk to your physician about an as needed beta blocker. It's an off-label use, but they do help with anxiety.


Exercise is good. Good rest. Eat well. Make sure that when you have nothing else to do that you are busy with something so that your mind doesn't have time to wander.

Sorry friends, been hopping with things.

Thanks for the words FF and L2C, I look forward to hearing more from you. I am totally lost on what to expect, say, do, force--I yearn for restoration, WW yearns for that feeling of romantic fun love...like she has with OM.

Marriage Builders CREATES that feeling of romantic, fun love. That is what we can promise her if she stays with you and follows this program. Your old marriage is dead and gone, we will help you create a NEW one.

My Dad called the OM Dad. OM Dad said he was agaisnt it and was not unaware any further contact had been made since i called him. Said he would check on it.

Me and the girls went to see OM mom and dad but did not make it--long long story, we were deterred. but, WW knows we went and was peod.

My son in the Navy PMed the OM on facebook--it was very hateful.

WW knows I called an attorney and I am waiting to here back and draw up some preliminary papers for charges related to criminal adultery, affection alienation, and sexual harassment in the workplace. I beleive OM will get word of this through WWs friend.

WW is absolutely livid beside herself. OM is just hiding in her skirt.

So here is where I got twisted. WW begged, hounded, bargained, with me to not file the suit if she broke off all contact. I started with "I will do what ever it takes to save our marriage and protect our family" for the 1st 4 hours. She called friends to come over--they all reasoned with me. So...I finally compromised with them all. I said I would continue get the suit in place, but would not move forward with the suit until WW or OM moved forward with the A in any way. They move, I move.

WW promised to break off all contact. Gave me a few passwords i wanted. Removed all pics of the OM from iphone--and sobbed for 4 hours on Saturday over the loss of those pics.

I checked txts, phone, gps, and vehicle VAR. Everything checks out. OM was communicating very coldly--just saying it was over and not to contact him unless WW was in physical danger. OM said no more comms because he would lose his job. No more I love you so much or other lovey dovey BS from OM since last Friday 04/05.

WW is not happy or motivated right in any of this. She says I am a huge A-hole control freak and that i have "won" by controlling the hell out of everybody. Says she hates me and loves OM but will stay with me because she loves OM too much to see him get hurt etc. I keep affirming I can change, we can rebuild, I can meet her ENs once the affair is dead.

I asked her to get away with me for 7 days and she agreed. We leave for a mountain retreat 8 hours away on Monday. She is in WD since 04/05 because OM has not communicated any love or hope since then. She is dragging pretty good.

7 day trip means WW may lose job, and primary means of comms with OM and $ for moving out.

Sorry for the book. Advice? Next steps?

What shall I focus on in the Mtns the next 7 days?

Thanks again all--it is a lot to read and endure. I appreciate you.

Sounds great! I think you should roll with it.

I would also follow up with the OM's parents and ask them to tell their son to leave your wife alone. Tell his dad he CONTINUES to send her messages and you are prepared to file a lawsuit against his company for sexual harassment, an A of A suit and file criminal charges for adultery if he doesn't leave your family alone. Tell him you sure don't want to do that, but will do what it takes to protect your family from this terrorist.

I would also INSIST that your wife change phone numbers and email addresses so RATPUKE can't contact her anymore. She has to cut off all avenue of contact - if she refuses you will know she is not serious!

My apologies to RATS for the insulting comparison.

would not move forward with the suit until WW or OM moved forward with the A

Well, this MIGHT work if WW is honorable and can be held to her word....

Says she hates me and loves OM but will stay with me because she loves OM too much to see him get hurt etc.

...but obviously she isn't!!! Excuse me, but in which screwed-up universe does a married woman TELLING her husband she's in love with another man NOT constitute continuing her affair???? The typical weak-minded WW has been known to keep the affair alive in her heart, long after physical contact has ceased. Your goal in HURTING him is ultimately to have him tell her he HATES her, that she was the worst thing that ever happened to him, and that he never wanted to see, or hear from, her again!!!

You have been PLAYED, dude. You listened to people (PEOPLE?) in your living room instead of the EXPERTS here, and the Words of God from the scriptures. Does Mrs Donothing from next door have ANY experience in killing affairs - dead, stone-cold, putrefying, dead?

Do you only read the posts that align with what your WW wants to do? My counsel of yesterday predicted this exact development, and yet you dove into the "make-nice-compromise-cess-pool" and are drinking of its filth!

Like you, I also withheld full retaliation (I was not yet here!), and got away with it because POSOM called my (then) WW that first afternoon, crying that I was going to RUIN him, and damage his family, making a total [censored] of himself, demonstrating that he had no qualities that she could admire. (Read my story for the gory details.)

You have no such victory in your pocket!

So there is an important insight here. The counselor we saw right after D-day said something similar and prayed that God's love would be revealed to my wife. I have prayed similarly many times.

Are you saying she has to believe in God's love again too/first? She can't just love me again--that is nary enough, she has to know God's love more/first/too???

This is an issue that has been largely ignored and I feel is of importance.

I figured I'd hear from you on this. I hear your point. The OM is telling her to leave him alone, and it is having a powerful effect on killing the fun of the A.

I figured it can't hurt for him to be cold and unloving over a period of time. If i play all my hand now there is nothing left. If they do start trying to connect when thisng cool down i have a few cards left to increase the heat and continue the misery.

Not sure if all at once or constant pressure is best, but I do think if I'd pushed harder I'd got little more negative reaction--just have less cards for the next hand.

No doubt though, this scenario is not what I'm aiming for. It does leave the consequences with WW and OM though--not my terrible controlling donkey.

The way I see it, the OM is plenty motivated to end it, it is WW that lacks the proper motivation. Continued action against OM looks like vengeance. Still, I do wonder.

I'll see what 7 days away does. If I am back to where I was 2 weeks ago I'll just pick up where I left off.

Well if that isn't a case for alienation of affection, I don't know what is. Is it really being vindictive? Or are you shielding him from consequences?? That one is tough, but I agree that you should have just done this without discussion with the WW. You showed your hand too much and the black and white got gray.

Over the next seven days, I think you should do lots of walks and talks. Nature is awesome for reminding how GREAT our God is! I'd invite the wife to pray together. Keep discussions light and focused on rebuilding if you do get around to discussing the relationship... Again try not to cry.

My posts are from the perspective of a BW and one of my top ENs is affection, so I can see that my past posts about being affectionate are probably colored by my own desire. I'd go with the voices of experience with their advice on the level of affection you should display toward your wife, since she is not receptive right now.

Try to have fun.

Unfortunately, affairs wreak havoc with spirituality. You have many supporters who are instruments in revealing God's love to your wife and to you. Those who are willing to tell the truth, speak up against her behavior and intervene for the marriage reveal God's love and purpose for our lives. Your wife's friends who convinced you to "back off" are not supporters of your marriage.

My advice for the trip away. Get off the communication grid as much as possible - no cell phones, no internet access,, no tv. Spend as much time as possible as a couple in a pleasant environment, doing things that you both like to do.


AM

This is true, DBD, they are not supporters of your marriage. The bad thing about this arrangement is that now your wife can accuse you of being controlling and will just go further underground with the OM. Amazing how wayward minds work: she bullies you into dropping the suit and then accuses you of being "controlling." Is that not about as insane as it gets?

On the other hand, if you just filed suit [or went through empty motions] she couldn't accuse you of being controlling. For example, I would call her bluff. Tell her you don't want to be accused of being "controlling" so you are filing the suits and going full steam ahead. Go ahead and leave if you want.

Because if she stays just to "protect" the OM the affair won't die on its own, it will only die because you were "controlling" which will keep the fantasy alive.

As far as being being "vindictive", I assert that screwing someone's wife is vindictive. Protecting yourself from the devil who is trying to destroy your family is not "vindictive," it is your moral obligation as a man and a father. You will do what it takes to keep this RAT away from your wife.

I think you should tell your wife you have rethought this agreement and will be filing suit against the OM. Tell her you don't want to "control" her affair. If she wants to continue her filthy affair, go for it. But you will do everything in your power to protect yourself and your children from her destructive actions.

And no, your wife does not have to renew her relationship with God to find love with you again. All adulterers are cut off from God.

Uhh, didn't you say they were texting just a couple of days ago.

So, she is not in withdrawal yet, or maybe is just starting, if NC has really started. You won't know until there is never any contact.

But this is beside the point. You continue to refer to things as if you are gonna just mark days off the calendar and when the quota is reached then this is over. Like taking a round of antibiotics; take them all for the prescribed time and it will cure the illness..

You better stop looking at the calendar, expecting things to move along a a pace the is repeatable. It doesn't work that way. Honestly, from the sound of things, the hooks between your wife and OM appear pretty deep. You had better keep doggedly making sure the difficulties of keeping the affair going, that the cost of doing that business remains high, because you haven't even come close to making sure it is dead.

One thing that I think gets glossed over on here, or outright misrepresented, is the fact that your wife is in love with the OM, whatever that really means. Don't minimize that. If she had her choice right now, she would make it where she and he could have a life with no repercussions. The repercussions are all you have going for you. All you have going for you.

So, quit counting the days til the end, just try to survive until then. You have a long way to go before you even know how it will end.

You need to understand this, her trying to contact him and him saying stop is still contact.

No contact is when she has changed her phone number, email, etc. to make contact impossible. If she hesitates, she is holding on, and NC has not started.

Another reason not to count dates, because you won't even know when it really starts, to be honest.

OM left the door open for her to call him and is still trying to be her protector. Seriously, your wife should call the POLICE if she is in danger...not some weasle OM.

Have you thought about locking up the guns and knifes somewhere out of the house so they can't play that card anymore? Until things settle?

I suggested "storage" on the first page of this thread. I don't know if that ever happened.

Just catching up here...

DBD: what Melody said @ 8:15 AM.

To a "T"...THAT'S how to play this and kill the A once and for all!!!

I agree, that a WW does not need to get things right w God first in order to find love in the marriage again.

I think that my husband meant that you can't make her change, but you can change YOU (clean up your side of the fence) and trust God to work on your wife after you have done the necessary steps to expose and kill affair. But I'll let my husband address that, not me.

I will tell you from a WW perspective that your wife is still high as a kite. Because she is still in love with OM (Ratboy as Mel says )she is going to be clawing and scratching her way back to him soon. The sooner Ratboy throws her under the bus, the quicker she will see that Ratboy actually IS a rat. She still thinks he is Prince Charming.

Pressing on with your plans to make Ratboy's life hell will make him throw your WW under the bus. Throwing her under the bus will make WW see what a Rat he really is. Win. Win.

I know what I am about to tell you from experience.

Exposure puts pressure on the affair. Contact can stop. But the avenue is still there. The pressure lessens with time, just because everyone kind of forgets about it and eases up. The affair is crippled but not crushed. Facebook is there, phone numbers aren't changed.

Then, there is a "Hey, how are things"

That's all it takes.

Crush it, no quarter.

The account of the wandering in the wilderness gives so much to live one's life by. The manna in the desert.

Also, the complete eradication of the enemies, or their perverse way will pollute you forever.

Eradicate it.

I agree he has a long way to go, and I wanted to address the issue of her being in love with the OM. I don't think anyone is under any illusions about that. That is just an inherent trait of an affair. Rarely are they not "in love." That is the rule, rather than the exception.

In the tricky business called "Plan A", the BS must present him/her self as a much better option than the adultery partner while doing things to kill the A.

If the choice comes down to an excellent fatal affair-killing "stick" .... if it is legal and does not violate your integrity, do it.

Some betrayed spouses fail here because they don't want to "appear" mean, or vindictive, or controlling, or crazy, or bitter, or needy, or whatever description/insult the adulterous spouse may use. We've heard them all.

If there is a nuke to kill the A, use it. Wanting to kill adultery is not the same as "controlling" your spouse. She may still leave, but the adultery will be dead.

DBD, if there is an "All Star Team" of MB peer-counselors, I think a majority of them have just posted to you the same advice:

Empty your entire clip of actions into the body of OM, NOW!

Do NOT talk to WW about "Why" beforehand. Whatever sense of "betrayal" she might express can be easily dismissed by asking how she felt about "betraying" you by going "heels up" for POSOM.

DBD:

Are you doing okay over there ?

Did you ever get in touch with OM's GF or ExWife or children ? Do you know if GF lives with him ? Hey, maybe GF is someone else's wife too...this might not be Ratboy's first rodeo.

If this polecat is playing a couple women, this can greatly work to your advantage if your wife realizes she is just one of several options.

t/j What is a polecat anyway ?? (Melody)

It is a cross between a skunk and WEASEL!

this is the part where you say ,"My apologies to skunks and weasels for the insulting comparison".

A polecat is my new favorite term for OMs. If only there was an animal that was part skunk, weasel and rat...do you have a name for that (beside [censored]...)

Carry on.

Girl, you got it!!

Sorry for the silence friends, I was off on the get-a-way.

I just read all the posts and there is much to catch up on--thanks again so much for sharing.

Herb--I hear you, you are right on most all counts, why I am looking for help--I get stuck etc. She is in deep love--why many friends don't get it--it is not a fling to her--she is in very deep love.

Getaway was pretty much hell. WW went with the intention of proving what a horrible [censored] she could be so I would stop fighting for her and let her go to her lover. It was crazy hard, but I kept my cool, avoided most of the LBs, and tried to show how I could meet ENs. Must of done some good, because she told me what her evil plan was on Thursday and apologized for being so mean and thanked me for trying so hard.

Snooping on Mon-Tues revealed she had tried to call the OM 4 times and her cheater friend from work forwarded emails from the OM to her. OM is doing just what you all have said:

He is out, he wants WW to work on the marriage...if that is what she wants. Then he says something about how much he loves her and how awesome she is etc. The comms mean so much to WW she is saving them as screen shots in a folder on her iphone. He is not communicating with WW directly or initiating comms right now. WW comms repeatedly, and he comms back through cheater friend. WW is very sad that he is pulling back and blames me for causing that. WW tells me that she wants to pursue harder because she does not want me to be the one controlling her life in this manner.

WW tells me that OM is pulling away because he fears losing his job and fears I will attack him or his family. OM seems to genuinely think i am a totally crazy SOB, and I think that is mostly just from being tenacious on not giving up on my marriage.

FF--I was able to get about 10-12 FB contacts off the OMs FB--people that liked some pics he has on there. I got those by viewing his FB from WW profile--I can see some pics from hers, but not the friends list. Still can't nail down the GF, but I think I may have the GFs mom. Should I message the people I have hoping it will leak over to the GF?

OM is away on a 10 day vacation right now. WW cannot run to him. Seems like now would be a good time for a bomb run??? But attacking OM makes her the very maddest and empties Love Bank of any and all progress. But you guys are all saying pressuring the OM is more important than meeting ENs and depositing love?

Also, should I do any exposure follow up with f&f on our side?

Oh, and get this, WW is actually concerned about OM sending messages through the other cheater friend of hers--WW fears cheater friend will flirt with her knight (OM). But that too is my fault--what is OM supposed to do?--he we'll have needs with me running him away from WW and all!!! How can I exploit this?

The day I discovered the calls and email to the OM I send an email to the OM and his 2 bosses (owners of company), owners will of gotten it, but I think OM was already on vacation, here is what it said:

I am very disappointed to find that communication continues between you and my wife.

Communicating to my wife that she is �special, desirable, and hot� from a workplace computer during working hours is extremely inappropriate and easily deemed as sexual harassment when coming from a member of management whom had authority over her in the work place. In addition to the sexual harassment issues, there are legal matters pertaining to alienation of affection and the fact that adultery is still a criminal offense in Arizona.

It is also incredibly offensive to me as her husband. I would not tolerate that kind of talk in my presence and I certainly do not find it honorable when spoken in secret.

I thought there was an understanding between you and I that your communications with my wife would cease, and I have respectfully anticipated you would stand by your word.

I would like nothing more than for the affair to end and I'm prepared to do anything I can to facilitate that.

I would respectfully ask you once again to stop texting, emailing, and meeting my wife and allow us the chance to rebuild our marriage before things get any worse.

I love her most,
BH

So how might I follow up with the owners now?

Go for it.

When OM abandons WW, her love bank for him will start to go dry.

Yes. Get ahold of OM's girlfriend's mother. Speak to her if at all possible !!!!

Waytards are crazy.


One idea .... just brainstorming ....

Call cheater friend (CF) and tell her that WW told you she thinks CF is flirting with OM and wants her to stop.

Blow up that nasty conspiracy.

Most excellent!

If there is another email from you ..... I suggest you "cc" your attorney

On the getgetaway, WWs boss called about her leaving so suddenly for a whole week. I heard the boss telling WW to do the right thing, stay in the marriage, think about the kids, etc.

Got me to thinking, I could call or email WW and cheater friend at work bosses and tell them they are using the work PCs to propagate the affair--I think they'd be a little ticked and put pressure on them, but not sure.

Again, WW would be livid over this and think it was all crazy control from me--the thing she hates most about me.

So what do you think? Should I attempt to apply pressure here--when and how?

Right now DBD fighting the affair looks like "control" to WW.
Later, the same events will look like DBD fighting for the marriage and for WW.

The difference?
WW fog.
WW addiction.
WW grief.

Takes time to dissipate.

Reverend,

1 - You asked for help.
2 - We said "Nuclear exposure!"
3 - You got all girly and said, "But I would seem mean!"
4 - You tried it your way; it failed.
5 - You are back asking for advice.

How many more times will it take before you understand that

1 - the only good OM is a run-off, humiliated, fired, OM.
2 - right now WW is NOT your ally; she is a supporter of your enemy.

ANYTHING you can do to hurt OM, and/or disrupt WW's infidelity-enabled life will work to your advantage.

Stop the "I'm REALLY threatening you, this time!" nonsense. Let your subpoena do the talking to the business owners.

Yes. Use one of my letters in my exposure thread and post it here. Also, go contact an attorney NOW about filing a lawsuit against the OM company and an alienation of affection lawsuit. Tell your wife you are moving forward on this so she will leak word back to the OM. Even if you don't do it, lead them to believe you ARE.

And yes, get ahold of GF's mom asap.

Take your children and go visit the OM's parents. Show them how he is continuing to pursue your wife. Also call the sleazy girlfriends husband and tell him his wife is facilitating this affair.


REMEMBER THIS: the goal is to save your marriage, *NOT* to avoid her anger!! You are NOT making any progress if you don't fight the affair. Plan A does not stand for "a**kissing" after all. It is a fight for your marriage.


Let your kids and anyone else you think significant that the affair is still roaring right along!

Oh, and I forgot about bringing charges against the OM!! It is illegal in your state to commit adultery. I would most definitely go for that one!!

OK, sorry to cower, but it is all new to me--here is my logic:

OM stands afar and waits for WW to leave. I attack A (OM in WWs mind) and WW leaves. OM has WW at his place now. Lawsuit threat dissipates and OM has all the advantage.

I don't view my actions so much as avoiding WWs anger--more like trying to build a love bank balance bigger than OMs--it is what I read in Dr Harley's "What to do with an unfaithful wife" Letter #3 article. Our situation seems close to the one described in the letter.

I'm not saying I'm right, just laying out my thinking.

No, you are hedging and talking yourself OUT of saving your marriage.

You have an excellent opportunity to destroy this affair and save your wife...one of the best I've seen herer, and much better than I.

You are still cowering.

DO what NG suggests.

DO what Marital suggests.

DO what Pep suggests.

I can state unequivocally -- what your WW sees NOW as contolling her, once the fog clears (and it will if YOU act), she will see THEN as saving her.

Her love bank is closed to you. You cannot make any deposits there until the affair is over. Concentrate on crushing the affair first and foremost. Crushing the affair will close her love bank to OM, or stop OM from wanting to make deposits.

This is why exposure is so important. It puts pressure on the A from all angles and facilitates the crushing process. The more you attack OM with legal consequences, the less into the A he'll be.

Worst case, in the end, you'll at least be able to tell the kids you did your best to crush the A. Best case, the A ends and you can start meeting her ENs and increase you balance in her love bank.

Now, let the crushing begin!!!

You are looking at this the wrong way and are not thinking strategically. You CAN'T make any lovebank deposits until you run off the OM. Her lovebank is closed to YOU and will be as long as that RAT is there. The OM is sitting on the sidelines perpetuating their fantasy "luuurve." He will stay there on the sidelines while they go further and further underground while the affair becomes more and more entrenched. Her lovebank to you is not only CLOSED but her resentment against you grows with every passing day because you are blackmailing the OM.

However, if you launch that nuke, you remove all her reasons for not leaving you *AND* you either run off the OM or you push her to move in with him, which will cause the affair to fall apart FASTER. Either way, you win. The worst case would be that she moves in with him, but that would cause the affair to go into a freefall because reality will destroy their "luuurve."

She has told you the affair would end if you would leave the OM alone. THAT HAS NOT HAPPENED. And it will never happen. The affair is still going strong. The affair will continue in the background forever if you don't run the OM off.

All your little "deal" achieved was:

1. gave the affairees more control over YOU - they can now safely resume their affair by going further underground and you have promised you won't "hurt" the OM

2. increase her resentment against you for "controlling" her

3. turn that POS $#%##@$#@# into an object of pity

See, the best scenario for their affair is for her to continue to live with you and carry on her affair. That way she has all the benefits of marriage and doesn't ruin her rep. She doesn't alienate herself from her family and friends.

All you have done is made it much easier to perpetuate their affair fantasy because she can remain hidden in her marriage.

OK. Read, thought, prayed some more.

Thanks again NG, Pepper, Wow, ML, all who are helping.

I called and have an appointment with the attorney for Tuesday--he says we have options and will get creative. he came recommended by a guy I trust.

I have tried who I think is the GF mom, but no answer yet.

I located the OMs son on FB, but I can only message him off my wife's acct--tried my kids and a friends FB--but all pics blocked. Friends list is blocked on WW acct, but not pics???

I promised I'd take my kids camping tonight so I have to go get ready--will have to do all the messaging on Monday...and wait for the eruption again. I'd like to confirm the name and number for the GF before all heck breaks out again.

Called sleazy friend husband--he knows--he just got busted in an affair--it is a mess--he says the 2 WW may move out together.

2 of my kids said they want to message the OM so I provided his info to them.

I have calls out for 2 places to store guns and knives...except a couple.

How long did the batteries last in your gps logger? Mine was dead in like 3 days.

I have not had luck syncing and extracting her iphone yet either--keeps crashing part way through the sync and I run out of time. I am intercepting plenty by just snooping on it already though.

Make sure you keep at least ONE around for self defense. You are dealing with a crackpot OM and people get killed. It is certainly not unheard of that a wacked out waytard murders a BS.

Let's simplify this:

Your WW shared with you that she is still carrying on the affair.

You are married to each other.

In a real marriage there is zero tolerance for an affair.

Either the marriage ends or you fight for it.

Fighting means taking control of the situation.

So yes, you are controlling.

It is noble to fight for your marriage.

But some in the world don't recognize nobility because their values are misplaced or they are conflict avoiders.

So much good advice on this thread. Take heed, Reverend.

So first Kill the affair or nothing else is possible. I had a bermuda grass infestation in my yard. I had to try many different tactics to eradicate it, and I had to bring in heavy equipment to remove it. It stayed around in pockets still. I finally found the right herbacide. And even then I had to use multiple applications for it to do its job. Finally, it is under control, but I still spray regularly in areas where it appears. So it is with an affair.

Best wishes.

Thanks again for the clarification ML and J3. I have had plenty of time to think things through and re-evaluate WWs actions.

I will get to work on your suggestions full steam on Monday.

Crazy thing, WW can tell I am up to something...she is scared for OM...she is trying to be so nice now. Reckon she has already learned in 6 short weeks that being warm and nice paralyzes me from action. Now it just encourages action:).

Old thread in the notables help bring things into perspective a little better.

WW went out drinking with 2 friends that want to leave their Hs last night and came home around 2am.

I told her I lover her, want to take care of her, and will wait on her to figure out the affair thing, but that she could not live at home and go partying--that I just could not worry about her at nights and support a party lifestyle.

She said fine she'd leave. I got a suitcase and started to help her pack.

When she realized I was not giving her the car, cell phone, guest bed--just a couple of suitcases, she started to back peddle.

I was kind of hoping she'd just go.

What now??? I fear if she stays today she will just make better preps to leave later. Encourage her to go or not?

VAR is running.

Any input appreciated.

Let her know your full plans to bring charges against the OM and to file lawsuits against him. Tell her you have changed your mind and will be seeing an attorney on Tuesday to move forward with this plan. The small window of opportunity to visit the OM's parents has passed. But if there is any contact again, I would drive over there with your kids and ask them to persuade their son to leave your wife alone. Go blow this up!

By doing this you will have called her bluff. I don't think she will really leave, but you need to tell her - when she chooses to stay - that she can't go running around like an alley cat in heat while living in the home of you and your children. That is disrespectful to you all.

ITA with everything ML said.

See, she is staying using the excuse that if she leaves you will file charges against the OM. That way she gets to stay AND blame you for controlling her. I want you to REMOVE that cover for her. Tell her you don't want her to leave but you aren't going to hold her there.

ML--done. She is thinking it all over.

She says OM will not even have her now anyway and that law suit will go nowhere.

She is calling cheating friend for a place to stay.

I keep telling her that if it is so bad at home, so controlling, I will remove all that and she can try being free on her own--but that i will only pay and support one household, not two.

That won't matter, though. What matters is if there WAS an affair. And since there was, you have grounds. She and the OM will be subpoenaed into court to give sworn testimony under oath about their adultery. The court will also subpoena all of their records, such as cell phone, emails, computer hard drives, etc.

Repeat this point every time WW tries to paint you as the controlling husband.

Roger that Pepper.

She did not leave. ML has been calling it.

I sat down next to her and talked gently but firmly, and she started to break.

It's like she is in a moment of reality--crying about hurting everyone, saying I'm going to have an affair now, everybody is going to hate her, why do I want her, etc.

She asked me what I want now and I said a dead affair. Write a letter together and a list of EP stuff. I think she is partially ready to comply / break things off.

I will proceed with bringing heat to the OM. Guns are out. Monies are moved.

I suspect she'll be mad and / or trying to comm with OM by Weds.

Ideas? Insights? Next steps?

Stick to your guns and don't back down on seeing the attorney about filing charges against the OM. That is GREAT if she calls the OM and tells him on Monday. I hope she does. I hope she scares him to death.

Be kind and give her a safe place to fall. And keep telling her you don't want to control her. Whatever you do, don't back down about the OM no matter what kind of deal she tries to drive. It will backfire on you.

You are doing great!!!

Ditto

Well, didn't quite make it to Weds on the anger. She's been acting sane all day. But just went on a walk together and she started pinning me down on the lawsuit and pressure of the OM.

I told her I'd do whatever it takes to save our marriage. I told her OM had 4-5 chances to stop comms and pursuit and did not. I told her the affair was still alive and well in my opinion. She pressed and pressed. So I told her I'd move ahead with "things" to help motivate the OM and her to really break off all comms and the affair. She started yelling at me to get away from her, so I walked home the other direction.

I see this prob here: in her mind the OM is out of the picture only because of my control. He is still wonderful and entirely desirable in her eyes. So since he won't comm with her now and since he says it is over she says she will just stay with me for the sake of the kids and him not being an option because of me. She still thinks he is the cats meow and wants to try the affair--part of me thinks trying the affair and OM hanging himself in it is the only cure for her.

Thoughts or ideas?

..in her mind the OM is out of the picture only because of my control....

Well, what she sees as the situation is actually very close to the actual problem definition, which would be to add to the above sentence, "...because WW cannot exercise independent moral and ethical control." What is skewing her reality is the "affair fog" that is only dispersed with time - time AWAY from her AP, and time WITH her spouse.

KILL THE AFFAIR. This has been the constant advice since you got here (actually, it was awaiting your arrival, as it awaits EVERY BS's first note).

Once the infection is removed from your marital system, healing can progress.

NO MERCY, REVEREND!

Kill the affair and the affair fog will fade. If the OM really cared about her nothing would run him off. Just remind her of that fact.

All the more reason to follow through with everything you've got. You have to make your wife too much trouble for the OM to pursue, so that No Contact for Life is a realistic outcome.


Dr. Harley pulls no punches and tells no lies when it comes to this. While it is possible OM may possibly do something just scummy enough to change her mind, it is likely that your WW won't end up with a negative LB$ with him, that she won't burn a negative image of him.

And that can still be overcome.

You push and let OM know without a doubt that you will make his life hell in any way you possibly can because you love your wife and will protect your marriage. You build and maintain a LB$ balance with her that dwarfs what he built in affair-land. And your build a brick wall topped with electrified razor wire around your marriage - including for yourself.


You hold the cards, brother. Call this weasel's bluff.

DBD,

I've got no advice, friend. The vets have laid out a solid plan, and you have excecuted well. Stay strong, and keep fighting the good fight.

God bless

DBD,

I know the feeling, believe me, as I alluded to in one of my earlier posts to you.

And I learned the vets are right on point here: while in the affair fog, the POSOM is just the best, the affair was terrific, nobody could do any wrong, and anything BS does to save the marriage (and the WS) is 'controlling.

That's IN the fog of the fantasy, while the affiar is still active.

WHEN YOU KILL THE AFFAIR and the fog is gone -- whole 'nother ballgame.

WS snaps out of the fantasy bubble and the "WTF was I doing" starts to set in...WS begins to realize it was NOT 'love' with OP, and all those 'controlling actions' actually saved the marriage... AND the WS.

And she WILL understand this and need a safe place to land.

Full steam ahead!

OM (Polecat) is a coward.

YOU are NOT a coward.

Everything you are doing is proving you are NOT a coward.

As a FWW who is on the other side of the fog, I can tell you that you are doing everything right.

This IS going to pay great rewards for you in the end. Your wife will admire you for it eventually...but not today.

I believe very soon Polecat's true colors will be shown and your wife will begin the process of realizing Polecat is really a polecat.

Kill the affair. Kill it dead.

I salute you.

SO TRUE!

Save her!!!

Thanks again for the affirmation everyone. Good words HHH. Encouraging reminder ML. Trying to stay mean NG. Saw more after I posted--always appreciate hearing from FF. Thanks Pepper for the kick in the butt from Eldridge.

I am catching crap from about everyone outside of here for my 'aggressive and vengeful behavior'

I meet with the lawsuit lawyer and divorce lawyer tomorrow. I will shove it as far as I can.

I keep calling GFs mom(?) but get no answer. I sent FB messages to who I think id the GF and GFs mom.

I called WW and cheater friends supervisor and told her about them using the work computer to facilitate the A. Supv said she will talk to them about it. She is going to go off the F bomb chart over this.

Bank accounts are set and credit cards are cancelled.

Will send follow up message to F&F tomorrow. Been asking close friends to keep messaging.

Anything else?

Crazy thing is, WW is still wearing rings, txts me when she will be late, hugs me a little here and there, and asks me about my job interviews. Those are good signs no?

Or they are signs of the Mayan apocalypse.

Don't try to read her too much. That's just a crazy-making invitation.

Hold steady, be the rock in this situation, and demonstrate that you will always be her rock should she choose to recover the marriage.

I think I have seen glimpses of this, then she just starts fantasizing or grieving the loss of what could be and the fog rolls in.

DBD,

I would respectfully disagree with your assessment...as I learned from Marital and Melody and NG.

Look at it a different way: it's not clinging to what 'might have been' with the OP...it's realizing, as the fog slowly clears, what it really was (and was NOT) and is more of a delay tactic, technique...call it what you will for the WS to avoid, for as long as possible (because they are acutley aware of the upcoming wave of pain, regret, shame, etc.), having to turn and face themselves and the damage that was done.

Like the old joke about a person staying drunk to avoid the hangover (bad analogy...NG would've done much better).

Your doing fine. One thing I regret is trying to understand a WW's irrational behavior. As some posted dont read too much into it.

Imagine POSOM throwing your wife under the bus in court. I def think that will kill the affair! You're doing ok. Keep up the plan A carrots as well.

Plan A love bank deposits with simultaneous Plan A adultery pesticide = you determined to nurture what you want to grow .... while starving what you want to get rid of.

Been a few days--seems likes months.

Met with lawyers. I think everything is set for if WW moves out. Need $2500 to begin the lawsuit against OM work--est. $5k more to finish. I will pull the trigger on this at the next point of communication.

I am gathering intel daily. I call who WW calls and gather info too. No signs of communications between WW and OM.

It looks like OM has given WW stiff arm. OM returned from vacation to a bunch of heat from work for the email I send 2 weeks ago.

WW is adamant that it is over and OM no longer wants her. She blames me for all that and is committed to being a class A beotch as my reward. Just looks like progress to me.

WW agreed to more counseling and while she leaves saying "enough of all the Jesus stuff", I can tell it really challenges her.

I emailed F&F again and lots of people have been messagging her--lots of people. She posted a rebuttal on FB! I loved it. She did not deny the affair to all 479 of her frinds! Just that she was not sleeping around and coming home each night and that i was acting crazy. She pulled it off FB 4 hours after posting.

IMO, WW is talking about "post affair" things. 'How will we get through this, what will everyone think, I need to reconnect with kids, everyone is going to think I was sleeping around,' etc. That is a good sign right?

In msgs to others, she says we are working on it and it will be ok--but she does not tell me that. Like she wants to keep me scared or hurt me a little longer, or like she needs to keep acting strong????

Some days a little warm, longer hugs, says I love you, etc. Other days very irritable, depressed, mean. Is this just withdrawal crap???

I enrolled in a stupid dance class and she got real inquisitive when I left for it--like she was worried what I'd be doing. I had invited her too, and only want the class so I can dance with her, but I made up my mind to go whether she did or not. Hope that is not a mistake.

It is like she is just teetering in the middle--could go either way. OM is not talking and that is the key to the whole situation right now. She acts like she is not going to leave at this point. I am doing my best to maintain steady love and a nice home life, but I do get baited into arguing over what a POS sissy the OM is from time to time.

And I am struggling to stay off the beer. I tend to tell her what I think of the OM after a 6 pack and my ego is 'unsurpressed'. I'm rationalizing the Coors Light in lieu of psyc meds.

I'm reading a few newer threads and I am just crushed by the pain folks are enduring---sad sad sad. I am hurting bad and limping along and I feel my situ is easy compared to many others.

You have a wonderful opportunity to save your marriage if you will just take it. You need to focus on attracting her back. A program of ATTRACTION. She doesn't see any hope in her future with you. It is up to you to change your behavior and persuade her that you can have a loving, romantic marriage.

Do you have the book Surviving an Affair and Lovebusters yet? If not, get them NOW along with the workbook Five Steps to Romantic Love. You are going to sell her on the idea of changing your marriage into a romantic, happy relationship and then show her how this is achieved. In a NON CONTROLLING, RESPECTFUL WAY.

For now, STOP all lovebusters. I have a sense that you lovebust her quite regularly. How would rate yourself on that?


Stop talking about God to her. Stop going to counseling and stop trying to set her straight. And most of all, STOP DRINKING! YUCK. Who wants to be around a belligerent, big mouth drunk??

Instead work on being as attractive and loving as possible. Can you do this?

When you get those books, ask her to read Surviving an Affair while you read Lovebusters.

The last counselor dogged me a whole lot more than her--she liked that.

I have dropped 40 pounds. I get up before her, run, shower, dress up, don a lot of cologne, and make her coffee each am. I make the bed and spy on her phone while she is in the shower, set out her lunch stuff, then walk her to the car and say something affirming each morning. I send her one email or text each day with something edifying in it. I give a little $10 gift with a card about once a week in her lunch bag. I take her lunch at work once a week. I have dinner ready at home at least once a week. I make the girs do the dishes and clean the kitchen. I post all the family stuff I can on FB once or twice a week. I work out in the evening with her 3 times a week. We walk at night about twice a week. I rub her 'bad' leg and foot about 3 times a week after dinner. I plan something each Friday or Saturday but she seldom wants to go. I have another cruise scheduled for August. I'm in best jeans with cologne and mint gum when she comes home. I'm doing laundry, folding clothes, painting rooms, fixing the roof, improving he pool, washing her car, and taking care of the kids throughout the week. I go to bed when ever she does and tickle her back and neck.

I am an egotistical [censored] for sure, but I am trying I promise.

Speaking of touching at night, it has been about 8 weeks since she revealed the affair. In that time, on 3 or 4 occasions things have escalated to physical intimacy following some times of non sexual touching and light snuggling. I do not initiate or press for it--she just responds that way sometimes--it always surprises me and I figure it can't hurt, but the emotional climate seems about the same each day afterwards. Just saying she does not have an aversion to physical intimacy with me. My 'controlling behavior' seems to be the biggest turn off.

I took the love busted surveys online. I score high on disrespectful judgement (controlling everything), independent behavior (this one has all but ceased), and annoying habits (smothering and saying too many nice things now). The book is on order.

I do not think she will read Surviving an Affair, but I'll try. The policy of joint agreement is what she will like the most, but she does not read much that i give her.

As for the drinking, it is not something I want to do/start--just a sinful reaction to things when I start dragging bottom--but thanks for the straight talk and reminder to avert from it.

Just so you know, ONE lovebuster ERASES about a month of good behavior. Every single time you commit a lovebuster you remind her of all the things that have pushed her away.

Did you get the book Surviving an Affair? If not, get the book and leave it lying around while you read Lovebusters.

And once you get the workbook, then go to her and sell her your plan for recovery.

Can you do that?


Does any of this stuff impress her? Sure, it does impress some women, but not all. Men just assume that being domestic is an auto love bank deposit and I don't know why they think that. The last thing that appeals to me is a husband who does housework.

>>The last thing that appeals to me is a husband who does housework<<

Sorry for the interruption. I've been following this thread from the beginning (I'm cheering for you DBD!), but the last message from ML surprised me. Could this be what I'm doing wrong? ML could you elaborate? I have the highest respect for you and the other vets on this site. Thanks for your efforts in saving marriages!

Thanks TCal! Some women appreciate it when men do housework, I don't. I don't want my husband doing things around the house because I like things done a certain way. I just get annoyed when he does things. I would rather do it myself or have it done.

It seems that men believe that doing housework is an auto lovebank deposit but for many women it is not. That can't be assumed. Dr. Harley did address this once and said that if a wife is terribly withdrawn, doing housework can be a demonstration of care, though.

To give you one example of why I feel this way, he recently asked me the most amazing question. He was going over our shopping list and got to the dishwashing soap [Dawn] and said "now what do we use that for?" I said we wash pans and anything that has to be handwashed. I asked him what he had washed pans with all these years. [a few times he has "washed" a pan after he cooked and left it in the sink to dry - I always rewashed it after he left because it looked dirty] He said "hot water."

But to his credit, he does a SUPER job taking care of our yard, the cars, and can fix anything. When something breaks down, he usually has it fixed that day. He meticulously pays our bills and takes care of our investments.

I would much rather he stick to the things he is good at and we are both very happy with that arrangement. I hate working on the yard and taking cars into the shop and he hates doing dishes so it works out very well.

T/J

NOW I know why I always have to re-wash the dishes Mr. Bliss washes!

Car washing/polishing.
Garbage taking out.
Yard work.
Bouquet of flowers.
Not peeing on the floor in the bathroom....
Not leaving whiskers in sink after shaving......

these are the household things that appeal to me in a spouse and make Love Bank deposits.

I have Surviving an Affair. Love Busters and 5 Steps Workbook is on the way. I can and will do as suggested.

WW has complained that I did not help out with household stuff, so I am trying to do a few things to demonstrate I am wiling to do anything. I have clear instructions not to wash certain clothes, and she prefers to fold her own clothes--so I just fold mine and the kids. In the 1st 6 weeks of the affair she was doing very little at home and things got way backed up.

The love busters damage is a bid deal. WW sees everything i do in relation to the affair as inordinate control. If I check her phone, ask her if she has emailed OM, ask my daughter if mom is with her etc.

Also, with the intel I am collecting, she frequently tells others that she loves the OM very much--going to stay with me and kids-- but loves OM none the less and does not feel ashamed, bad, or guilty about it. So I am worried about comms. resurfacing with OM.

Thanks again for input.

Just be sure your husband KNOWS what the Dawn dishwashing liquid is for!!!

That is not a lovebuster to check up on her. But it would be much better if you would spy on her so she doesn't know it. Do you have a GPS on her? Do you have spyware on her phone? Find a more clever way of spying on her so she doesn't know you are doing it. Put a keylogger on her computer and you won't have to ask if she has emailed the OM.

I see you drove that weasel away, you won that battle now to fix her issues with you. That is the hardest battle IMO because you honestly need to look at yourself and have something waywards don't have when the affair is over. HUMILITY. Here's an idea why not ask her to join you on your morning run? As for the drinking cut that out all together and stop the preaching. Are you both going to church as a family? If not you should let the pastor handle that. Don't do counseling use the call center. It's better from what I read.

For emphasis !!!!!!!

This is true now, because of her state of mind (withdrawal).
Later, in a healthy POJA-working, loving marriage (state of intimacy), this "one month" erasure is not necessarily the case.

For now, POJA things that are NOT related to her adultery/OM/snooping surveillance/etc.

POJA recreation.
POJA food.
POJA household chores.

Make it your business to POJA non-adultery decisions as often as possible. It's good practice for you and will stop you from love busting.

If you take the time/effort to POJA your drinking beer, you will not love-bust. W must be enthusiastic about the POJA choice.
Is this easy right now? Oh hell no. But, you better start to learn now.

Do you know how to get to Carnegie Hall?
Practice
Practice
Practice

Mr Pep has my love-bank filled. When he occasionally does a love-buster - I tell him about it and he corrects. I do not erase all our progress based on one love busting event. But, your W does.


POJA is the cornerstone to maintaining the "state of intimacy" and prevents love busters. So, POJA every opportunity.
This will take time, discipline, effort, and a ton of self-soothing on your part. Love maintenance, like car maintenance, prevents break-downs.

I asked him what he had washed pans with all these years...He said "hot water."

News Bulletin: The 2013 MB Barbecue will NOT be held, as planned, in Oklahoma! Stay tuned for further developments....

Listen here, I have always gone behind him and REWASHED those pans!!! I would never put a pan of his in my clean cabinets!! When he cooks, I MAKE SURE he washes his hands too!!

THREAD JACK IN PROGRESS !!!!!!

I remember when Mr Mel used Mel's cooking/roasting pan to change the oil in his car !


Most surprising of all, he lived !!!

He changed the oil in MY car and proudly took me out to the driveway to tell me! And there laid my BEST ROASTING PAN on the ground!

Lovebank neutral?

Intercepted this text to a friend this am RE WW crying last night:

"I hate that I hurt H, I miss OM, and sometimes I just hate my life- probably depression"

Def WD right? Not sure about what to do when she is so sad--heck I'm not sure if she is sad for us or OM most of the time.

RE POJA, she started talking about wanting input on any "new crap" I might try and buy her. Like a cruise, new kitchen table, etc.

Thanks for the encouragement.

Have you seen this?

Recovery After an Affair

Hi DBD,

I remember being in the phase you are right now. I was sad and angry and lost and quiet.

You likely won't get much response from her yet.

1. Watch a comedy with her. NO ROMANTIC COMEDIES for pete sake. Even though watching a movie doesn't count for UA time, right now laughter will help you both and relieves some tension.
2. Go on a hike with her. Don't talk about relationship stuff.
3. Smile when you can.
4. Don't highjack your dates with AO or DJs. When we would go on dates, my BH would wait until we were far enough away from the house so I couldn't jump out and walk home and then he would start the AO. Don't do that !!
5. Don't belittle the Polecat, even though he deserves it. Just don't talk about the Polecat.
6. Don't make decisions without her. Use the POJA. Help her feel like she has *some* control over her own life.
7. Don't have AO/ DJs.
8. Don't have AO/DJs.
9. Don't have AO/ DJs.
10. AOs and DJs are terrible roadblocks to recovery. It is very difficult to fall in love with someone who is angry.

Thinking of you during this difficult time,
FF

Same here! Bless his heart, my husband was chief cook and bottle washer while I was laid up with my shoulder surgery. Do you think that stopped me from rewashing where necessary?? Ummm, NO! Not in MY cabinets!

Wait! No. You need to do the barbeque in OKC!

Yes, this is typical of withdrawal. And I'm sure she IS depressed - infidelity is a very depressing place to be.

nooooooooooooo, wrong side of da state!!!!

Does he use SOAP??

Also has she been to her doctor for ADs?

Checking in.

Monitoring comms. and still no sign of connection with OM--longest period of abstinence so far.

I have suggested seeing a Dr, but WW does not want to go.

Brain--I have read the info you posted...kind of hoping 30 days is the worst of it.

FF--thanks for the encouragement. Doing ok with AO and DJs, but I do call the OM some degrading names from time to time--only when she brings up how wonderful he is/was.

We are watching movies and going on walks as suggested, but it is weird and I am trying to allow some space but still show some love.

Got a formal offer on a new job today and start next Monday--she seems excited about this.

She is starting to initiate snuggling a little on the couch and is saying I love you more from time to time. Herb--trying not to hang on every word and action, but ...I am.

She went to church one Sunday with my daughter out of the blue--the sermon was on adultery--straight up on adultery, I saw the lesson notes--daughter said she cried the whole service--that has to be God at work on things too.

WW continues to communicate fears that I will have an affair now or turn real mean once things settle out with her. She actually acts real concerned about who I am texting and emailing etc. I have a lot of that stuff password protected because of my snoop tools. Not sure how to handle this?

I have a 5 part action plan ready to roll at the 1st sign of new comms with the OM. No real EPs are in place on her end to prevent it.

Later all, thanks for your input and care.

Did you ever get into your doctor for ADs?

Do not give up your snoop tools yet. You need to keep an eye on her until you know there's been NC. Some posters do it for a year past recovery and some more than that.

No Dr--self treating with Coors light. 4 works great.

Intent to keep snoop tools running--it is tricky though.

That's not a healthy way to deal with it.

Can you get into your doctor? Will you get into your doctor?


What are Plan A and Plan B

Please do not let anyone pressure you to take antidepressants.

But you really need to stop self medicating with beer. It's not healthy. It can end up causing a more long term issue even after you and your wife work things out. you don't want this.

There are a lot of natural things you can take to help alleviate some anxiety.

DBD you gave me some good words on my forum let me share some with you. Alcohol is a depressant and will make your depressed and fat. Goes without saying, its not attractive. Quit the alcohol and hit the gym or run you will notice a HUGE difference in the first two weeks. I do not know what your comfort zone is but try to run 3 times a week about 2 miles. It will increase your testosterone and your physical attractivness as well as your self esteem. Huge burst in energy as well. I started like that 4 months ago and dropped 52 lbs. I'm running in mini marathons now! If I can I know your can.

edit: I do not believe in ADs Dr. Harley says they help. Because of my beliefs I was encouraged by some posters here to run. I do not take mind altering substances including alcohol. Exercise may or might not work for you but what better way to show your WW that you changed? Physical appearance will speak for itself.

I don't think the Coors is for depression, My impression is that it is for anxiety.
Am I correct or am I incorrect?

Edit to add:
I also suspect the Coors is his TAKER's decision.

He may be self medicating for anxiety, but alcohol can stimulate the nervous system and act as a depressant. It's ultimately self defeating.

I'm married to a man with 17.5 years AA sobriety. I am an RNP. Yes, I understand how alcohol effects the nervous system, as well as other systems.

Alcohol is a nervous system depressant, not a stimulant. I know that's what you meant to write.

Exactly what Pep says.
What a better time to get into your doctor DBD?

Pardon, yes thank you.

Plan A with your WW still living in the home includes POJA non adultery decisions with your wife.
This includes the Coors-solution.

Edit to add:

ASK your WW how she feels about 4 Coors/night. Ask about 3/night.
Ask about 2/night.

You may get laid if you show this much care for her feelings.

Sex vs Coors as anxiety relief?
Sex wins.

Sex vs Coors as anxiety relief?
Sex wins.

Yeah, but at some age, it becomes obvious that, with beers, one can still have TWO per NIGHT!

Shaddup NG.

Only if you're doing it wrong.

KR, you can't handle two beers?