We have been married for 9 years, we have 3 children, and I love my wife dearly, but 2 months ago I learned of her 5 month affair with a married man. Since that time we have started working through his needs her needs and have made progress in improving our relationship. We are spending the 15 hours a week together and learning more about each other than we ever knew. My wife will hug me and have sex with me, but says she can't kiss me because she has some kind of mental block. She says she knows she still has a bit of a wall up but is trying to let me in. What hurts most is she said the best part of her affair was all of the kissing and passion, but that we just don't have that. Please help, it is like a dagger each time she rejects my kiss.
The obvious exposure targets are the betrayed wife, and your kids if they are over four. Do they know?
Is no contact in place with the other man and did your wife send an NC letter?
Is the OM a distant memory now? There is no incidental contact, no leftover gifts lying around?
Did you get STD tested?
It sounds like the UA time you are doing is productive in quality at least. What needs are you meeting during UA time?
Originally Posted by SEJ3
My wife will hug me and have sex with me, but says she can't kiss me because she has some kind of mental block. She says she knows she still has a bit of a wall up but is trying to let me in. .
Stop having sex with her for now. She isn't ready entirely yet and isn't being honest about that out of misplaced duty. She is having sex unwillingly and doing that can lead to full blown sexual aversion - you don't want that!
People don't fall in love by having sex. Fix the love bank FIRST, have sex later.
You'll get all the passion you want if you sit her down and tell her you want to wait a little longer for sexual passion to return. Women love a gentleman who puts them first.
She has been willing to answer all questions about the affair, she has given me all of her passwords, and given up her cell phone. When she leaves the house she always lets me know where she is going. She has been very willing to be open and has told me multiple times she is remorseful. I have tried very hard to not keep bringing up the affair and trying to deposit love units into her bank. I can see now where I had neglected her most important need of intimate conversation. We talk everyday now. Before the affair she was sleeping upstairs always saying because one of the kids couldn't sleep or was sick, or she needed to study and didn't want to bother me. Now we sleep in the same bed every night. We seem to be improving our relationship,but her refusing to kiss me is very hurtful, especially knowing that kissing the OM was something she enjoyed so much. She says to let her come to me, but if not that may just be something we won't have in our relationship.
Our children do not know about the affair. They are ages 4,6, and 8. She has no contact with the OM and I asked her to contact the OM's wife and inform her of what they had done, which she did in my presence. The affair ended 5 months ago,after I found text messages between them, but I only learned of the physical nature of the affair 2 months ago after she finally admitted it to me.
I would also suggest you call the OM's wife yourself and make certain she knows all about the affair. She needs to know all of the details. You can give her your phone # for follow up.
Where did she meet this OM? How far away does he live/work?
I have spoken with the OM's wife. She is completely aware of all the details. I do continue to check on my wifes whereabouts, however she doesn't really leave our house much, she has chosen to to be much more involved with our children and join them in activities since the affair. My wife was attending classes about 30 miles from our house in the same town the OM lives, she has completed her degree so there is no need for her to return to that town. She knew the OM from college, and they bumped into each other at a store where they exchanged #'s then boom the affair was off and running.
I have asked her if it is my technique, but she says it is not that. She says it is a mental block and the passion and desire to kiss me is not there. I have to believe she is holding back and not opening herself to me when she no longer wants to kiss me.
SEJ3, you are on the right track. She is still in withdrawal. The key will be to restore the romantic passion to your marriage and that will take 20-25 hours per week of undivided attention time meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs. If you can do that, pretty soon she will feel passion for you. It takes a few months to go through withdrawal.
Do you have the book Surviving an Affair? Are you familiar with our program?
It's also a good idea to tell your kids and close family members about the affair. That is a big part of recovery. The more people who know, the more people to hold her accountable. I would tell your kids alone and then let her know afterwards. The kids need to be told the truth about the source of tension in their home.
I do not have that book, I have His Need Her Needs and Love Busters. We have filled out the emotional needs worksheet, and I am doing my best to meet her needs. The only issue is she says she is not sure what all of her needs are, so she doesn't know how to tell me what needs to meet. She struggled to complete the worksheet. But could definetly say the OM met her need for intimate conversation.
I do not have that book, I have His Need Her Needs and Love Busters. We have filled out the emotional needs worksheet, and I am doing my best to meet her needs. The only issue is she says she is not sure what all of her needs are, so she doesn't know how to tell me what needs to meet. She struggled to complete the worksheet. But could definetly say the OM met her need for intimate conversation.
I would put aside that book and get Survivng an Affair. SAA is written to those who have HAD an affair, HNHN is written to those who have not. The only needs you need to worry about right now are these:
1. affection 2. conversation 3. recreational companionship 4. sexual fulfillment
Those are the top 4 intimate emotional needs and meeting those will make the greatest lovebank deposits. Meeting those needs for 20-25 hours during undivided attention will have the greatest, fastest impact on your marriage. Print out the worksheet and read this article:
Another very important step right now is ensuring you are not making lovebank withdrawals by committing lovebusters. What are her biggest complaints about you? Would she fill out this questionnaire? http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4502_lbq.html
Just tell them that mommy had an affair with married man and that you are very sad and hurt about it. Tell them the name of this bad man is __insert name____. Explain to them that this is wrong and that you and mommy are doing everything to fix the marriage.
I would just tell them on your own without forewarning your wife. Afterwards, you can tell her you told them. I would encourage your children to ask her any questions they have. You should also inform your close family members.
This is all information that is very pertinent to your children's lives and they have a right and a need to know the truth. Here is what Dr Harley has to say about telling the children:
Dr. Harley on telling the children:
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The same can be said about telling children about an affair. My experience with the positive outcomes of hundreds of families where an affair has been exposed to children has led me to encourage a betrayed spouse not to fear such exposure. In fact, to mislead children, giving other false explanations as to why their parents are not getting along, causes children to be very confused. When they finally discover the truth, it sets an example to children that dishonesty is sometimes acceptable, making them the judge of when that might occur.
An affair is an attack on children as well as the betrayed spouse. And it's true that children are deeply affected by this form of irresponsible behavior. But it's the act of infidelity that causes children to suffer, not the exposure of it. Facts point us toward solutions. Illusion leads us astray. That's true for children as well as adults.
Q: So, you do suggest telling our 10 year old son? Is this more than he can handle? He never saw any real unhappiness as my husband and I had a very low conflict marriage. I have been protecting our son from this truth. He still has hope that his dad is going to come home. ___________________________________ A: As for your son, the truth will come out eventually, even if you get back together again. And your son won't be emotionally crippled if he hears the truth. It's lies and deception that cripple children. He should know that your husband is choosing his lover over his son's mother. It's a fact. He's willing to ruin a family unit all for what.
When I first started recommending openness about an affair, I wasn't sure what would happen. But I did it because I knew it was the right thing to do. Now I know that for most couples it marks the beginning of recovery.
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The reason that children should know about an affair is that exposing it to the light of day (letting everyone know), helps give the unfaithful spouse a dose of reality. An affair thrives on illusion, and whatever a betrayed spouse can do to eliminate the illusion is justifiable. Mold doesn't grow well in sunlight.
2. How honest should I be about the A? (they are 7 and under)
Tell your children as much as you can about their father's affair, and how it affects you. There are some counselors and lawyers that strongly disagree with me on this issue, but I have maintained that position for over 35 years without any evidence that children are hurt by it. They're hurt by the affair, not by accurate information regarding the affair. Just make sure that you don't combine accurate information with disrespectful judgments. For example, you can say that the OW has taken their father away from you, but you should not say that she is home-wrecker (or worse).
My basic approach to life is that radical honesty is valuable on many different dimensions. It keeps us out of trouble, it helps others understand us, and it helps others avoid the same mistakes we have made. Letting your children know the details of your husband's affair would help them in all three areas.
The more your children know about your husband's affair, the more careful he will be to avoid them in the future.
The more your children know about his affair, the more they will understand what you are going through in your recovery (by the way, you are doing very well -- keep up the good work!).
Being radically honest about your husband's affair with your children would also help them avoid affairs themselves. How it happened and how could it have been prevented is a great object lesson for children. I learned that I was vulnerable for an affair when I learned about my grandfather's affairs. The extraordinary precautions I've taken were directly related to what I learned about him.
It's the approach I've always taken, and while it's difficult, especially for the WS, there's much more upside to it than downside.
How could they possibly understand that their mom was lying to all of us and sneaking away to meet another man?
They will. My own father was a serial cheater who introduced me to his OW when I was age 4. It was very confusing to me and I knew something was wrong. I remember my mother sitting on the edge of her bed sobbing. It would have been much less confusing if a responsible adult had given me some moral guidance and explained the source of the tension in our home.
My wife was furious when I told her mother, I can't imagine what she will do if I tell our childre.
Exposure helps tremendously in breaking up the fog that comes with an affair. Affairs thrive on secrecy, so keeping her secret for her only fuels her fantasy about the affair. Telling your children and your family will help break up that fog and help your wife see her affair in a more realistic light. Our goal is to facilitate the best chance of recovery in your marriage, not to avoid her anger at all cost. A falling down drunk is angry when you take the car keys away from him, but do you avoid doing the right thing in order to avoid his anger? Of course not. Anger about exposure is a sign of the fog. Once her fog wears off she won't be angry about it, so don't let that stop you from taking necessary steps to recover your marriage.
Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley
Many betrayed spouses are afraid that exposure will drive the unfaithful spouse further away. While it's true that unfaithful spouses usually feel betrayed and angry when their affair is exposed, I regard that reaction as being part of the fog that most addicts experience. When the fog has finally lifted, and the source of addiction no longer has control, the value of exposure is usually conceded by the addict himself.
Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley, clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders
"The reason for the wide exposure is not to hurt the unfaithful spouse, but rather to end the fantasy. Your husband's secret second life made his affair possible, and the more you can to to make it public, the easier it is for him to see the damage he's doing. Keeping it secret does damage, but few know about it. Making it public helps everyone, including the unfaithful spouse and lover, see the affair for what it really is."
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"Exposure is very likely to end the affair, lifting the fog that has overcome the unfaithful spouse, helping him or her become truly repentant and willing to put energy and effort into a full marital recovery. In my experience with thousands of couples who struggle with the fallout of infidelity, exposure has been the single most important first step toward recovery. It not only helps end the affair, but it also provides support to the betrayed spouse, giving him or her stamina to hold out for ultimate recovery."
My wife was furious when I told her mother, I can't imagine what she will do if I tell our childre.
Just ask yourself WHY she would be furious? It is because she was embarrassed. She should be embarrassed. Being embarrassed about being bad is a good thing, not a bad thing. It motivates your wife to avoid doing such things in the future. Exposure is a very positive, therapeutic move for everyone. There is NO downside to exposure.
The more people who know, the more people to hold her accountable. And the more people to SUPPORT YOU and your marriage.
Thank you for all of your input. This is by far the most difficult thing I have ever dealt with. It is so hard to try and meet her needs when I still get mental images of the two of them together.
Thank you for all of your input. This is by far the most difficult thing I have ever dealt with. It is so hard to try and meet her needs when I still get mental images of the two of them together.
We understand completely, my friend. Let me assure you that if you follow this program, those images will fade. If you replace your old marriage with a romantic, happy marriage, your mind won't be wandering to the past.
You just have to walk through fire to GET THERE. If you will do these things we advise, you will have the very best chance of getting through this and ending up with a great marriage.
I sure hope so. We have a date tonight, my plan is to not bring any of our issues up tonight and just try to enjoy my wife's company.
That is a great idea. Once you know all the facts of the affair, it should never be brought up again to her. But you do need to tell your children and your close family. She will be angry at first, but you will see her pull out of withdrawal FASTER once everyone knows. Exposure kills fantasies.
One of the main things you're up against is competing with the impossible romantic fantasy of a secret affair.
But once it stops being a romantic secret - it starts to look pretty disgusting.
That's why exposure helps the wayward see things as they really are.
Her OM wasn't a passionate romantic relationship, he's an embarrassing shameful secret.
When you told her mother, you ruined part of her little fantasy.
Which is exactly what you are trying to do.
Not only will her children knowing put paid to incorrect romantic reminiscences (helping HER) your children will stop being confused about what is truly happening (helping them).
The kind of thing people tell mistakenly tell children in these situations would baffle anybody.
Many adults say things like 'we're not getting along' - but the children are still expeceted to get along! Or the adults say things that are clearly not true and children learn that lying is OK.
My 10yr old cousin actually spotted my husbands affair before I did. She saw them holding hands and told her mother that it was 'not right'. Children understand affairs much better than adults in a way because they see things so clearly.
Your children will still love their mother and will greatly appreciate hers and your efforts in correcting things. And what a great example to them for their own marriages later on.
When mom's and dad's get married they do not have BF/GF. Well mom had a BF and she went on dates with the BF (insert OM's name). What mom did is known as having an affair.
The same can be said about telling children about an affair. My experience with the positive outcomes of hundreds of families where an affair has been exposed to children has led me to encourage a betrayed spouse not to fear such exposure. In fact, to mislead children, giving other false explanations as to why their parents are not getting along, causes children to be very confused. When they finally discover the truth, it sets an example to children that dishonesty is sometimes acceptable, making them the judge of when that might occur.
An affair is an attack on children as well as the betrayed spouse. And it's true that children are deeply affected by this form of irresponsible behavior. But it's the act of infidelity that causes children to suffer, not the exposure of it. Facts point us toward solutions. Illusion leads us astray. That's true for children as well as adults.
Q: So, you do suggest telling our 10 year old son? Is this more than he can handle? He never saw any real unhappiness as my husband and I had a very low conflict marriage. I have been protecting our son from this truth. He still has hope that his dad is going to come home. ___________________________________ A: As for your son, the truth will come out eventually, even if you get back together again. And your son won't be emotionally crippled if he hears the truth. It's lies and deception that cripple children. He should know that your husband is choosing his lover over his son's mother. It's a fact. He's willing to ruin a family unit all for what.
When I first started recommending openness about an affair, I wasn't sure what would happen. But I did it because I knew it was the right thing to do. Now I know that for most couples it marks the beginning of recovery.
Originally Posted by Dr Harley
The reason that children should know about an affair is that exposing it to the light of day (letting everyone know), helps give the unfaithful spouse a dose of reality. An affair thrives on illusion, and whatever a betrayed spouse can do to eliminate the illusion is justifiable. Mold doesn't grow well in sunlight.
2. How honest should I be about the A? (they are 7 and under)
Tell your children as much as you can about their father's affair, and how it affects you. There are some counselors and lawyers that strongly disagree with me on this issue, but I have maintained that position for over 35 years without any evidence that children are hurt by it. They're hurt by the affair, not by accurate information regarding the affair. Just make sure that you don't combine accurate information with disrespectful judgments. For example, you can say that the OW has taken their father away from you, but you should not say that she is home-wrecker (or worse).
My basic approach to life is that radical honesty is valuable on many different dimensions. It keeps us out of trouble, it helps others understand us, and it helps others avoid the same mistakes we have made. Letting your children know the details of your husband's affair would help them in all three areas.
The more your children know about your husband's affair, the more careful he will be to avoid them in the future.
The more your children know about his affair, the more they will understand what you are going through in your recovery (by the way, you are doing very well -- keep up the good work!).
Being radically honest about your husband's affair with your children would also help them avoid affairs themselves. How it happened and how could it have been prevented is a great object lesson for children. I learned that I was vulnerable for an affair when I learned about my grandfather's affairs. The extraordinary precautions I've taken were directly related to what I learned about him.
It's the approach I've always taken, and while it's difficult, especially for the WS, there's much more upside to it than downside.
It would be even so much better if she told the kids that she had an inappropriate relationship with another man and apologized to both them and you for her selfish, hurtful behavior.
She doesn't have to go into details. She just has to own up to the fact that she put another man before their father and that she has ended that relationship and is remorseful for the hurt and peril she has created by her actions.
Originally Posted by SEJ3
You really believe the kids should be told at such a young age? My wife will be very upset if I do this
It would be even so much better if she told the kids that she had an inappropriate relationship with another man and apologized to both them and you for her selfish, hurtful behavior.
She doesn't have to go into details. She just has to own up to the fact that she put another man before their father and that she has ended that relationship and is remorseful for the hurt and peril she has created by her actions.
Just so you know, Dr Harley doesn't recommend that the wayward spouse be there during exposure. It causes needless tension and often leads to fights. Exposure should be done by the BS, not the WS.
I told her brother and her best friend last night. Her brother already knew, because her mother contacted him about it. I am still struggling with the notion of telling our children. I also decided to ask if she was having sex with me because she wanted me or out of a sense of duty. She said she would prefer not to have sex, but she knows it is one of my needs. I told her that when she has sex with me in that fashion it is not meeting my need, and we should wait until the passion and desire come back. Again a very painful thing knowing she desired someone other than me and no desire for her husband. Looking back over the last year, we had sex less than once a month and I knew something was seriously wrong. So it was very hard for me to agree to returning to no sex, but I am trusting that when we fix our love bank the sex will return. I miss being close to my wife.
I told her brother and her best friend last night. Her brother already knew, because her mother contacted him about it. I am still struggling with the notion of telling our children. I also decided to ask if she was having sex with me because she wanted me or out of a sense of duty. She said she would prefer not to have sex, but she knows it is one of my needs. I told her that when she has sex with me in that fashion it is not meeting my need, and we should wait until the passion and desire come back. Again a very painful thing knowing she desired someone other than me and no desire for her husband. Looking back over the last year, we had sex less than once a month and I knew something was seriously wrong. So it was very hard for me to agree to returning to no sex, but I am trusting that when we fix our love bank the sex will return. I miss being close to my wife.
SE13 Your WW desired OM because she was in Love with OM. Your job after the A is killed is to make enough LB$ for her to breach the romantic love threshold for you.
We don't have to tell you this is the most painful experience you will ever endure. But if you follow Dr. Harley's plan as he lays it out in SAA your M can recover.
Follow the good advice given here and see how well MB can make your M. Once you remove the conditions that led to your WW's A and have implemented EP then work the program all in.
There is hope and it's here with MB! Fight for your M my friend!
And I want you to know that we ALL struggled with telling our children, but is it the right thing to do. Your wife might be upset at first, but she will eventually see the value. It is the best thing for ALL of you.
She was angry, she shut down and wouldn't talk to me the rest of the night. She made a comment about why don't you just tell everyone that will make you feel better and asked me repeatedly who I needed to tell to feel better? I can honestly say telling anyone about her affair does NOT make me feel better. The only times I feel better is when I feel she is being honest and open with me. I don't know why I asked her this, but I had to know if she still thinks of the OM and again she got angry and said I already told you NO I don't think of him unless you bring him up. Why would she hide that she is human and does still think about him sometimes? It makes me feel like there is more to hide.
One of the reasons it is recommended to expose the affair in one fell swoop is so you get this over with so you can move on. By dragging this out, you have to deal with multiple ordeals and make this much harder than it should be. I would strongly encourage you to go tell your kids now and get this over with. If she is already angry, why not make it worth your while?
My parents know, she has not spoke to her father since she was 12 years old, so I would say the only people remaining to be told would be our children.
It is a bit of a strange situation telling now, because I do believe that last time they had physical contact was back in April. At that time she had text the OM and told him she would miss him and thanked him for everything. I continued to monitor the phones, computer, her whereabouts and found no sign of further contact unit August 12Th. When she sent him an email saying she wanted to call him all summer but thought it best that she didn't. This email and me calling the OM's wife is what prompted her to finally tell me the truth about the physical nature of the affair. My wife still maintains that she did not really want to contact him in August but was just checking to see if I was monitoring her email accounts. Again I think there is no more physical meetings between them, but DO NOT believe she is not still missing him.
It is a bit of a strange situation telling now, because I do believe that last time they had physical contact was back in April. At that time she had text the OM and told him she would miss him and thanked him for everything. I continued to monitor the phones, computer, her whereabouts and found no sign of further contact unit August 12Th. When she sent him an email saying she wanted to call him all summer but thought it best that she didn't. This email and me calling the OM's wife is what prompted her to finally tell me the truth about the physical nature of the affair. My wife still maintains that she did not really want to contact him in August but was just checking to see if I was monitoring her email accounts. Again I think there is no more physical meetings between them, but DO NOT believe she is not still missing him.
Your WW was not testing you to see if you were checking up on her.
Your WW felt that enough time had gone bye so she felt it was safe for her to resume her affair with the OM. This affair is still on going. If not actual it is on going in your WW's mind. She is still pining for her OM. She is doing duty sex if you initiate. Though in her way she is still staying faithful to her OM because she will not french kiss you.
Expose to your kids today.
Many people here recommend that the OM's FB friends list be copied and pasted then the BH exposes the affair to the whole list. You need to get the OM so annoyed that messing around with your WW is not worth the hassle. He will be glad to find another WW to have an affair with.
SEJ, I am confused about what this has to do with telling your children? You do realize that your children should be told regardless of the state of the affair?
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My wife still maintains that she did not really want to contact him in August but was just checking to see if I was monitoring her email accounts.
That is a huge red flag. Is she under the impression that there is something wrong with you checking? You have a right to know everything she says and does.
Are you still snooping on her? I sure hope you are.
At the time of discovery yes she felt there was something wrong with it, it was exactly a week from the day that I purchased HNHN and we started to work through it. That is when she gave me her passwords and she told me about a secret account(which I already knew about from my spyware). To answer your question all of this really has nothing to do with telling our children, just thoughts that are running through my head.
It was probably your contacting the OM's wife that really killed this affair. Many WW's have said that the wife knowing discouraged them from pursuing the OM. With the OMW watching on her end your wife knows she would be busted. That is what likely made her give up on the affair.
But please go tell your kids and get that over with. The longer you let this ride, the harder it will be. Just get it all over with this weekend. Maybe go outside with your kids to play and tell them. Don't drag this out, my friend.
When you tell the kids, be sure and tell the name of the OM and ask if they have ever met him. They should know to contact you immediately if they ever see him.
I will tell them today. Do you believe as I do that my wife is still holding onto thoughts of the OM and that is why although she has improved many things she still is unable to be completely available to me?
I will tell them today. Do you believe as I do that my wife is still holding onto thoughts of the OM and that is why although she has improved many things she still is unable to be completely available to me?
I am not really sure about that. She might be holding out for the OM and because of that she might feel she is "betraying" the OM by kissing you. I just don't know. Your wife is hard for me to read. I do know if your kids know about the affair, that will likely dash any future hope she has of pursuing the affair.
If she is thinking of a future with the OM, part of the plot would be to find a way to end your marriage so no one thinks it was because of the affair. That might be why she is seeming to "work on" things with you, so she can say she "tried."
It is a popular tactic of affairees is to pretend the affair is over and act like they are working on their marriages for a while. Then they can say "see, I worked on the marriage for while and it still didn't work, lets get divorced." And the hope is that no one will point to the affair as the reason. She would rather blame YOU and be in a position to tell the kids it was your fault.
This is why it is so important to expose an affair. When an affair is exposed, none of these tactics will work.
If she is thinking of a future with the OM, part of the plot would be to find a way to end your marriage so no one thinks it was because of the affair. That might be why she is seeming to "work on" things with you, so she can say she "tried."
It is a popular tactic of affairees is to pretend the affair is over and act like they are working on their marriages for a while. Then they can say "see, I worked on the marriage for while and it still didn't work, lets get divorced." And the hope is that no one will point to the affair as the reason. She would rather blame YOU and be in a position to tell the kids it was your fault.
This is why it is so important to expose an affair. When an affair is exposed, none of these tactics will work.
QFT.
If this is not in the exposure thread (it's been a while since I read it), it should be added. Many BS's do not understand the importance of this..
She has denied they ever spoke of a future, I also asked this of the OM when I contacted him he said they were just f---ing. Of course when I told her what he said she could not believe he would talk about her like that.
She has denied they ever spoke of a future, I also asked this of the OM when I contacted him he said they were just f---ing. Of course when I told her what he said she could not believe he would talk about her like that.
I wouldn't expect her - or him - to tell you if that was the plan. But the fact that she was still pursuing him very recently and she won't kiss you tells me this might be something in her own mind. Either way, telling people about the affair will erase any future hopes she might have. It will help put the nail in the coffin.
It's interesting to speculate what's going on in your WW's mind, and it can lead to some productive thoughts.
At the same time,what she's thinking or not thinking now, has no bearing on your chances of R. Killing the A dead as a doornail and beginning R is how you'll cure the problem, regardless of whether it's Subproblem A or Subproblem B.
Fine to ponder, as long as it doesn't end up being a distraction from what's truly important, or a discouragement. Your chances of R are excellent, so keep on following through with your actions to finish off the A.
I will tell them today. Do you believe as I do that my wife is still holding onto thoughts of the OM and that is why although she has improved many things she still is unable to be completely available to me?
Yes we have seen it happen where affair partners keep the passion alive in their heads, even with no contact. Dr Harley has seen affair partners kept successfully apart for many years - only for the wayward to return to the affair partner as much as twenty years later, when the children are grown.
Even if the OM is not interested - it is entirely possible your wife still hopes. In her fantasy of getting back with him she will expect you to help her cover up what happened in the past.
This is for her future plan of introducing him to her children as a new boyfriend post-divorce (a divorce that was either your fault, or nobody's fault). She will not even consider the possibility of you telling them the truth. She does not believe children should be told the truth. Waywards never do. If they did, there would not be any affairs.
That's why exposure to the children is so important. It is actually more their business than it is yours. You can always get another wife - she is their mother for life. They have been somewhat ignored while she had another priority and they probably blame themselves for that confusing period of time. They need to know it wasn�t their fault, and ask for her promise that she will never do it again.
She also needs to know they will never accept an intruder as a replacement for their dad. Not now, and not even later on when they are grown up.
Once the fantasy is bust up by exposure, she will get through withdrawal quicker.
It's actually very sad that she is pining for this user. Exposure and a dose of reality will help her more than anyone, even if she does get angry. But what does she expect? For you to become a liar too?
It's a bit like a toddler getting angry when a soap bubble bursts.
Again a very painful thing knowing she desired someone other than me and no desire for her husband.
It is so painful.
Just remember that she desired a complete illusion. A made up fantasy. He was lying through his teeth whenever they spoke. So was she. Not only are there no problems, no dirty dishes, no childcare or bills in affairs there is also no truth.
Affairs run on lies and the way to keep the affair running is to invent a personality and just say whatever the other person wants to hear.
However the glaring problem with affairs is they are shamefully embarrassing and degrading. That big problem trumps all the little problems experienced in marriage. After exposure, that big problem is clearly seen and it floods away any pleasure they invented.
That's the good news. that it's easy to bust up illusions using exposure.
Ok I told our children, my wife was so upset that she says is is just done. She slept on the couch last night. When I woke for work this am she came in and told me we needed to talk when I come home for lunch. She says she can't believe I did something so selfish. I had to bite my tongue to keep from having an angry outburst, but is she serious, I'm the one who was being selfish? Her affair was nothing but selfish.
Ok I told our children, my wife was so upset that she says is is just done. She slept on the couch last night. When I woke for work this am she came in and told me we needed to talk when I come home for lunch. She says she can't believe I did something so selfish. I had to bite my tongue to keep from having an angry outburst, but is she serious, I'm the one who was being selfish? Her affair was nothing but selfish.
That's a very standard reaction, SE. Keep your cool and be the lighthouse. Show her that no matter what, you will neither lose your temper or apologise for being truthful. Don't get drawn into conversations about it.
It's actually good news because her anger shows you hit the target. You're ruining her pretty fantasy.
I'm afraid her reaction shows just what we all feared. That she was more concerned with protecting her fantasy than being more honest in future.
My oldest daughter seemed the most upset by the information. She was very quiet the rest of the night. I ran her a bath, and then read her a bedtime story and tried to convey that her mother and I are working very hard to fix this, but it was very painful to see her visibly upset. Please God just put my family back together, this is all so difficult.
Ok I told our children, my wife was so upset that she says is is just done. She slept on the couch last night. When I woke for work this am she came in and told me we needed to talk when I come home for lunch. She says she can't believe I did something so selfish. I had to bite my tongue to keep from having an angry outburst, but is she serious, I'm the one who was being selfish? Her affair was nothing but selfish.
This just shows how far in the fog she is. I'd let her spin her own wheels and concentrate on the kids and getting them to open up and talk to you. They should be encouraged to talk to her too if they want to.
If she brings it up say: "I'm being honest with the children and encouraging them to talk to me." Then leave or change the subject.
Show her how she should be behaving with them not by lecturing but by example.
tried to convey that her mother and I are working very hard to fix this.
I wouldn't make any promises on your wife's behalf. That is for her to do. By all means tell the children factual things she has done ("mom is spending more time with us now") etc, but don't pledge that she is working hard when she isn't. She's still in withdrawal and coasting.
It's good to tell your kids you love them, love their mother and that you are fighting for the family on your side though. However if they are smart kids they simply won't beleive promises you make in your wife's name. If they want her assurances, they should speak to her.
Just keep talking to them, keeping it simple and truthful.
My 4 and 6 year olds went about there business like normal, even sitting on mom's lap and laughing and talking, but my 8 year old refused to even give her mom a good night kiss. I have to admit that my oldest and I have been close- I coach both her softball and her basketball teams, but I was not prepared to see her reaction. I do not want the children to pick sides, this is about us mending our family. How do I tell her that without it being like I'm trying to tell her how to feel.
My 4 and 6 year olds went about there business like normal, even sitting on mom's lap and laughing and talking, but my 8 year old refused to even give her mom a good night kiss. I have to admit that my oldest and I have been close- I coach both her softball and her basketball teams, but I was not prepared to see her reaction. I do not want the children to pick sides, this is about us mending our family. How do I tell her that without it being like I'm trying to tell her how to feel.
SEJ, you did the right thing. Don't tell your daughter how to feel about this. As long as she is not disrespectful to your wife, she should be left alone. Older children often realize that the cheating parent was willing to wreck their family over a big fat nothing. Your daughter is dealing with that realization. I would encourage your wife to apologize to the kids for what she has done to them.
Your wife's reaction is a sign of the fog. But telling the kids will help kill the fog, so I would not get too worried about this. Just tell your wife that her affair affected the whole family and you won't lie to the kids about the source of tension in your home. This will blow over.
As long as she is not disrespectful to your wife, she should be left alone. Older children often realize that the cheating parent was willing to wreck their family over a big fat nothing. Your daughter is dealing with that realization. I would encourage your wife to apologize to the kids for what she has done to them.
Exactly. In la-la fantsy affair world you can sleep with another man and it doesn�t hurt the kids one bit. That's because they don�t even think about the kids.
However in the real world, the kids will feel hurt and they now realise it was never their fault. So they feel allowed to show their hurt.
It's good for your kids to be allowed to show their hurt and it's good for your wife to live in the real world for a bit where there are consequences to stupid choices. I bet she never thought of how it affected you all in la-la land.
You done good by telling your children. I exposed to my SS and DS a year ago. SS wanted to love with me because of affair. Unfortunately it was nothing I could do because of the legalities. DS refuses to speak with his mother because she hurt daddy and his family. My SS was 9 and DS was 4 when I told them. Simply said it is bad for mommies to have boyfriend when they have husbands and vice versa. Showed him a pic of POSOM and told them both to call me if he comes around them.
Set your DD an example of being affectionate to WW, without trying to force her to resume normal interactions when she's not ready. You can make it clear to the kids that you're still being affectionate because you love WW and want to see the family restored, not because you've already forgotten what she did.
Encourage them to ask questions - they'll come up with some doozies!
Whenever WW tries to cast this up on you, reverse babble to her.
Example:
WW: You've ruined everything - you're so selfish! You: Yes, having an A is very selfish. Did you hear the latest about the government shutdown?
WW: I was thinking about staying with you, but because of what YOU did, I'm finished! You just ruined everything!!! You: You're right - adultery does ruin everything. Have you tried the new kind of cookies I just got?
Reverse babble is a response to fog that consists of 2 parts. First, you agree with the WS in a way that turns their own words back around on them, and then you toss out an innocuous distraction. Edible distractions are my favorite. With a little practice, it gets easier.
So funny you posted this, just talked to her at lunch and her words were "just when things are going well I do something like telling the kids and ruin everything."
So funny you posted this, just talked to her at lunch and her words were "just when things are going well I do something like telling the kids and ruin everything."
How did you respond?
Was there any other R discussions?
You have done your part by being honest. Her head will take some time to really know how she will finally react. Let her chew on the consequences and if she talks with you about it again, just become a parrot with whichever reply you decide to choose.
Things may get Very emotional or withdrawn for a brief time. Be patient.
How are you doing on improving yourself and also your Plan A changes?
So funny you posted this, just talked to her at lunch and her words were "just when things are going well I do something like telling the kids and ruin everything."
SEJ3~
You did the right thing. Truth is always the right thing. YOU didn't "ruin" anything, the affair is the culprit. Mr. W and I made the mistake of not telling our daughter of my affair because she was only 5 when it happened, it was 3 months long and we thought it didn't impact her. The more we learned from MB the more we worried about that decision. We always said we would tell her when she got older -- much older -- like in her 20s. But that was not to be.
In March of 2012, DD12 (at the time) and I were driving back from dinner out when out of the blue she asked me, "Mom, have you ever cheated on Dad?" -- She's inquisitive and often asks hypothetical questions. My heart stopped when she asked that question, but I KNEW I had to be honest with her, and once we pulled safely into our garage, I was. It was the hardest thing I've ever had to do -- it was like stabbing her in the heart while looking directly into her eyes. She was rightfully devastated. I called Mr. W and he came home from work to offer support. I knew that she would want to talk to and be with him then. She felt naturally protective of her dad. For us it had been years since the time of the affair (2005), but for our DD it was like it had just happened, and she needed time to process all that goes with learning something so shocking and traumatic about someone she trusted implicitly.
She was VERY ANGRY at me. And that was a GOOD THING at her age. It would have been worse if she had not been angry at something so vile. It is morally sound for someone to demonstrate righteous anger over immorality. Anger at injustice and immorality is the proper reaction -- we validated our daughter's feelings because her instincts were dead on. I am still amazed at how clearly she saw things. She yelled this at me at the time: "Mom, I don't care that you cheated on dad, I care that you almost blew up my whole world"! Very true -- she got it -- she understood that the affair was an attack on her. Kids are self-centered. I knew that she did care about what I had done to her dad, but she was far more concerned with her world and her security -- as it is supposed to be. I have apologized many times over to our daughter for what I did to her and her dad. There have certainly been some difficult moments, but we are in a far better place now. The truth has given us the opportunity to be much more effective moral guideposts for our daughter.
You did the right thing, SEJ3 -- don't question it. When times get tough surrounding this never stop reminding yourself that the affair is what caused the damage, not the truth. Your wife will come around.
I started going to a marriage counselor on my own about a year ago when I could really tell the marriage was going south. She refused to join me. Through the counseling I was able to see where I was failing my wife as a husband. I clearly was not as affectionate or willing to talk to her as much as she needed. She herself admits that I am not the man I was and that I have come a long way, but in the same breathe tells me it may be too little too late. My counselor told me that in order for a marriage to work that I need to wake up everyday and decide to be married to my wife and treat her as if I just made that decision. Because in reality you are making that decision daily. I told my counselor that both my wife and I have been in agreement with most everything in Dr. Harleys books, and she is willing to follow this program. My wife has been reading and doing the worksheets with me in HNHN, but most on here say I need to purchase SAA.
Yes. Dr Harley would probably advise you to read Surviving an Affair and use the materials and procedures in the book. Its very similar ; however compare it to personal illness. A person that has never had cancer abd eats and exercises for preventive measures will be on a different regime than a post op cancer patient
Affairs are like cancer. If not properly treated the marriage will not survive
I have to say working through HNHN has been the first thing that has given me hope in my marriage in a long time. It has been the only book or advice the my wife has even considered listening to. She says she can see where the things Dr. Harley says make sense, but she has very openly disagreed with the whole exposure method. It is odd, but just as I was writing this post my wife called to say she was sorry for being so mean at lunch and that she really does love me. She seems to be all over the place, but it sure feels good to hear her say those words.
I do expect her to calm down. We have seen this play out a million times so we are not concerned. Bringing the affair out in the open like this propelled you into a new level of recovery where you are not in fierce competition with a fantasy. The fantasy with turdboy doesn't look so attractive now that she sees the stark reality of the effect on her children.
The reason she likes HNHN so much is that it blames the betrayed spouse for the affair. The reason it does that is that spouses will be awakened into taking preventative measures.
SAA places the blame where it lies: on the shoulders of the one who chose to cheat. Know why your wife cheated? It is because she has poor boundaries around men. You could have been meeting her needs to perfection and she would have still had an affair if her boundaries are poor.
SAA explains all this perfectly. It also talks about the benefits of exposure.
Ok I told our children, my wife was so upset that she says is is just done. She slept on the couch last night. When I woke for work this am she came in and told me we needed to talk when I come home for lunch. She says she can't believe I did something so selfish. I had to bite my tongue to keep from having an angry outburst, but is she serious, I'm the one who was being selfish? Her affair was nothing but selfish.
That's a very standard reaction, SE. Keep your cool and be the lighthouse. Show her that no matter what, you will neither lose your temper or apologise for being truthful. Don't get drawn into conversations about it.
It's actually good news because her anger shows you hit the target. You're ruining her pretty fantasy.
I'm afraid her reaction shows just what we all feared. That she was more concerned with protecting her fantasy than being more honest in future.
I'm more interested in your children's reaction?
Exactly you just nuked fantasy land for WW. There is no way the OM can now and come back and have a smooth landing.
Ok I told our children, my wife was so upset that she says is is just done. She slept on the couch last night. When I woke for work this am she came in and told me we needed to talk when I come home for lunch. She says she can't believe I did something so selfish. I had to bite my tongue to keep from having an angry outburst, but is she serious, I'm the one who was being selfish? Her affair was nothing but selfish.
It is odd, but just as I was writing this post my wife called to say she was sorry for being so mean at lunch and that she really does love me. She seems to be all over the place, but it sure feels good to hear her say those words.
It may seem all over the place for you but for us she is just like all other waywards. It's like they're all following a script. We've seen it played out millions of times. Dr Harley talks about this in SAA. You need to get that book immediately and begin reading it with your W.
The reason she likes HNHN so much is that it blames the betrayed spouse for the affair. The reason it does that is that spouses will be awakened into taking preventative measures.
SAA places the blame where it lies: on the shoulders of the one who chose to cheat. Know why your wife cheated? It is because she has poor boundaries around men. You could have been meeting her needs to perfection and she would have still had an affair if her boundaries are poor.
I know, I get so tired of this too. The wayward has inflicted the most unbearable pain one spouse can give another but all they can talk about is how the betrayed spouse should have met their needs. While waving around a copy of HNHN. A great book and a marriage bible; but it was not written to excuse affairs.
It's a bit like stabbing your spouse and then saying you did it because they were too untidy around the house. While waving a copy of 'Ideal Home' around to prove your point.
If she accepts the teachings of SAA (including the fact that you won't help her keep any future affairs a secret either) then she will get better boundaries around men and not let them get so close. The ideal situation is for her to be faithful even if you were in a coma and unable to meet any needs at all.
When I was a BW, I was separated from my wayward husband for a year before the divorce. I never betrayed my vows during that time in spite of the fact I was living in a world full of men who viewed me as single. I never even found anybody attractive because I had learned from MB how to avoid that.
Your wife is one of the many people who is surprised to have discovered that she is capable of adultery. Capable of doing something she would never have believed of herself. That's a hard fact to face.
But it will be better when she does. We are all capable of affairs in the right circumstances and pretending we are not helps no one. The key is to never let those circumstances happen and to be always radically honest with our spouse and the people who love us. To live in the light, basically.
I. Bringing the affair out in the open like this propelled you into a new level of recovery where you are not in fierce competition with a fantasy.
Yes!
Originally Posted by Neak
Set your DD an example of being affectionate to WW, without trying to force her to resume normal interactions when she's not ready. You can make it clear to the kids that you're still being affectionate because you love WW and want to see the family restored, not because you've already forgotten what she did.
Encourage them to ask questions - they'll come up with some doozies!
Whenever WW tries to cast this up on you, reverse babble to her.
Example:
WW: You've ruined everything - you're so selfish! You: Yes, having an A is very selfish. Did you hear the latest about the government shutdown?
WW: I was thinking about staying with you, but because of what YOU did, I'm finished! You just ruined everything!!! You: You're right - adultery does ruin everything. Have you tried the new kind of cookies I just got?
Reverse babble is a response to fog that consists of 2 parts. First, you agree with the WS in a way that turns their own words back around on them, and then you toss out an innocuous distraction. Edible distractions are my favorite. With a little practice, it gets easier.
Do this exactly.
And for what it's worth, exposure never made your DD pick sides or love you more. She loves her mother very much - that's why she is so annoyed with her. Your DD's reactions to exposure are very normal and shows she knows the difference between right and wrong.
Nine times out of ten this is the exposure reaction we see from children. One time there was a teenage girl who blamed her betrayed mother and told the serial WH and his OW they had her support! I think that was a case where a serial wayward cheat had shown his daughter such a bad example for so long, she didn't know good from bad any more.
Luckily your little girl is a tender and moral person who just needs time to process this.
Sorry, I wasn't viewing this as exposure. I thought she was fessing up to what she did.
I agree, if it's exposure, then yes, it's on him.
I misunderstood.
I was raised if you do something wrong, you confess to those you hurt. You don't wait until someone else outs you.
Sadly, it seems few others were raised in this fashion.
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
So you BOTH tell them.
It would be even so much better if she told the kids that she had an inappropriate relationship with another man and apologized to both them and you for her selfish, hurtful behavior.
She doesn't have to go into details. She just has to own up to the fact that she put another man before their father and that she has ended that relationship and is remorseful for the hurt and peril she has created by her actions.
Just so you know, Dr Harley doesn't recommend that the wayward spouse be there during exposure. It causes needless tension and often leads to fights. Exposure should be done by the BS, not the WS.
I am ordering SAA today. I know the recovery is going to take a long time, but if last night was any indication my WW is starting to see things differently. She wanted to actually talk about things last night and started taking responsibilty for her actions. She was more affectionate towards me and the kids and it seems to have carried over into today. She once again told me she is willing to do whatever it takes to make our marriage work and show me how deeply sorry she is for the hurt she caused. I know this is going to be a lot of work, but hearing that she is ready to buckle down and work in this gives me hope. I will need more actions than words at this point. My oldest asked her why she would want a boyfriend when Dad loves her. My wife responded that she doesn't and that she acted very selfishly and will work hard to make it up to all of us. My daughter did not seem to buy it. But at least they are talking.
She was bound to see it differently after seeing it through her children's eyes.
Don't we all? I became a much better person after I became an aunt, after I began volunteering in a school. I didn't want to let the kids down by being a poor role model.
I am ordering SAA today. I know the recovery is going to take a long time, but if last night was any indication my WW is starting to see things differently. She wanted to actually talk about things last night and started taking responsibilty for her actions.
That is great! I would also pick up the workbook Five Steps to Romantic Love. It is cheap [$11] and it has worksheets and lessons in it. It also has the undivided attention worksheet in the back that you can make copies of.
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My oldest asked her why she would want a boyfriend when Dad loves her. My wife responded that she doesn't and that she acted very selfishly and will work hard to make it up to all of us. My daughter did not seem to buy it. But at least they are talking.
Bravo to your little girl! Little girls are MURDER on affairs! WE had one recent little girl who snatched her father's phone and would search through it to make sure he had not called the OW.
Bravo to your little girl! Little girls are MURDER on affairs! WE had one recent little girl who snatched her father's phone and would search through it to make sure he had not called the OW.
After I cancelled my wife's Facebook account my then 12 year old daughter refused to give my wife her Facebook password because she knew my wife was using it to look at POSOM.
Bravo to your little girl! Little girls are MURDER on affairs! WE had one recent little girl who snatched her father's phone and would search through it to make sure he had not called the OW.
After I cancelled my wife's Facebook account my then 12 year old daughter refused to give my wife her Facebook password because she knew my wife was using it to look at POSOM.
That is hilarious!! We had a poster several years ago named MrSteve. His WW, a lifetime serial cheater, was flagrant about her affairs and used to run around all night. MrSteve just could not even confront her. Well.....his 18 year old daughter got fed up with that nonsense, packed the mother's bags and kicked her out!! That was the end of that. The last I heard they were divorced and the daughter refused to see the mother or even allow her to set foot in the house.
That is hilarious!! We had a poster several years ago named MrSteve. His WW, a lifetime serial cheater, was flagrant about her affairs and used to run around all night. MrSteve just could not even confront her. Well.....his 18 year old daughter got fed up with that nonsense, packed the mother's bags and kicked her out!! That was the end of that. The last I heard they were divorced and the daughter refused to see the mother or even allow her to set foot in the house.
You are all right my daughter is wonderful and thank you for the advice.
Latest update. The lack of intamacy still weighs heavy on my mind. My wife is still unable to kiss me. When it comes to sex she says she understands my need and had offered a schedule where we had sex every Tuesday and Saturday. Thinking about some of the advice I received on here I told her last night that I thought we should wait until the spark returned and I did not want sex out of some sense of responsibilty. She seemed so relieved and asked me to be patient, but she knows the feeling will come back.
We did not have sex, but she offered me a back rub and we slept very close to each other all night. Although I very much wanted to have sex with my wife, I felt closer to her without it last night. I am afraid that the sex will not return and I am worried that this will keep us in what has been a sexless marriage(less than once a month before her schedule was implemented). Did I do the right thing?
I want our marriage to change and for us to be close again, but knowing she desired another man and not me is almost unbearable and to give up the schedule even though I knew her heart was not in it was still very difficult for me.
She seemed so relieved and asked me to be patient, but she knows the feeling will come back.
You are a clever man SE!!!
Originally Posted by SEJ3
We did not have sex, but she offered me a back rub and we slept very close to each other all night. Although I very much wanted to have sex with my wife, I felt closer to her without it last night. I am afraid that the sex will not return and I am worried that this will keep us in what has been a sexless marriage
Not at all. It's natural for women to want the emotional bond first, before sex. The courting has to be done all over again, but since she is willing to bond and be close and emotional and with you, there is no reason she cannot be courted.
To be honest SE, you are doing such a good job of courting her, being patient and respectful that I would be astonished if she does not rediscover her passion.
She is also aware that the sex has to come back and is working with you to spark a genuine need. That's great.
To be honest I wouldnt rush it at all. You have time. Even when she starts kissing you, I'd draw it out for a bit and just kiss for a while. That drives most women nuts.
Just concentrate on getting the UA time in and meeting the top needs you can both meet enthusiastically. I'd put a big focus on conversation, recreational fun and affection. I'd replace SF for now with flirting, just as you would on an early date with a nice girl. Let it be known that you find her sexy and attractive with subtle comments and without pushing her.
We did not have sex, but she offered me a back rub and we slept very close to each other all night. Although I very much wanted to have sex with my wife, I felt closer to her without it last night. I am afraid that the sex will not return and I am worried that this will keep us in what has been a sexless marriage(less than once a month before her schedule was implemented). Did I do the right thing?
I am marveling at how smart you played this. You see, by having sex with her before you were actually making her LESS enthusiastic about sex. By allowing her to do this on her terms, you are actually creating an environment where she will WANT to have sex with you.
The key is the UA time. Do you know about this and are you going on dates with her? The closer you get to her emotionally, the more in love she will be. And when a woman is in love, she likes to make love.
Yes we are going on one date each week, and have lunch together everyday. I make it a point to leave the office and have lunch at home so we can spend that time together. We also have our 15 hrs prescheduled for the week, which we do every Sunday as it says in HNHN. Last week we actually spent more like 20 hrs UA and this week we have all Friday night together, the kids are staying with their grandmother. My wife loves scary movies and ghost stories so I have planned a trip to a local haunted house, not my cup of tea but not something I will despise either. I really want her to have a good time with me, so she can start remembering that we have enjoyed many goodtimes in the past.
Can you increase that to 4 dates per week? Going out on dates is immensely more effective than UA time spent at home. When a couple is not in love it is way too tempting to find something more interesting to do when you are at home. UA time should be spent in 2 to 3 hour blocks meeting the 4 intimate emotional needs.
Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley
When I apply the fifteen-hour principle to marriages, I usually recommend that the time be evenly distributed throughout the week, two to three hours each day. When time must be bunched up -- all hours only on the weekend -- good results are not as predictable. Spouses need to be emotionally reconnected almost on a daily basis to meet each other's most important emotional needs.
Another very effective tactic is going on vacations together. Is there a way you could take her on a romantic vacation?
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I have planned a trip to a local haunted house, not my cup of tea but not something I will despise either. I really want her to have a good time with me, so she can start remembering that we have enjoyed many goodtimes in the past.
That is a great idea! It primes the pump, so to speak.
My wife loves scary movies and ghost stories so I have planned a trip to a local haunted house, not my cup of tea but not something I will despise either
Would she like a weekend at a nice old haunted hotel? I love that kind of stuff. My H and I spent our anniversary at an old haunted hotel in Eureka Springs, Arkansas. They also have a ghost tour every night. Would she like something like that? http://www.crescent-hotel.com/
I am sure she would love that. Thank you for the link. We have our 10 year anniversary coming next spring, it would be awesome if she would agree to renew our vows at this hotel. That is if things progress the way I hope.
I am sure she would love that. Thank you for the link. We have our 10 year anniversary coming next spring, it would be awesome if she would agree to renew our vows at this hotel. That is if things progress the way I hope.
What about doing something sooner? Like a weekend vacation with her someplace close by? Your marriage needs that boost now.
Also, that hotel has an awesome spa and salon. I was pleasantly surprised because I wasn't expecting to find a spa of that quality in that hotel. They have facials, massages, etc. Would she like something like that?
Why not go away for the weekend now? Kick start recovery.
You got all up close and cosy with your wife as a direct result of the 20 hours you put in last week. Just think how many hours you could get in during a weekend away.
It would be really romantic to take her away without the expectation of sex too. Just for fun and because you want to be with her. You could go now, make loads of great memories at the start of your 'new marriage' and then revisit those memories next spring.
It would be difficult right now. In two weeks we are spending the weekend at her friends lake cottage, but the kids are going with us. I have to work every other weekend so my next chance would be early Nov. I also coach my daughters basketball team so that takes time away from UA, but my wife attends all the games and does not want me to stop coaching, nor do I. We agreed that we will work on spending time together, but that we can work around the basketball season. I also host a basketball tournament in March that my wife helps me with and we plan it together.
We are trying our best to put the focus on us, without spending too little time with the children.
Great place. When we dropped the kids at Kanakuk for Christian Sports Camp, we would often stay there.
Good choice!
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by SEJ3
My wife loves scary movies and ghost stories so I have planned a trip to a local haunted house, not my cup of tea but not something I will despise either
Would she like a weekend at a nice old haunted hotel? I love that kind of stuff. My H and I spent our anniversary at an old haunted hotel in Eureka Springs, Arkansas. They also have a ghost tour every night. Would she like something like that? http://www.crescent-hotel.com/
Early Nov is fine: its quite soon, and asking her to go now meets an affection need and its something pleasant and interesting to talk about between now and then.
However I'm a bit concerned that you're not getting in all that much UA time between now and then.
Originally Posted by SEJ3
We also have our 15 hrs prescheduled for the week, which we do every Sunday as it says in HNHN.
I missed this.
15 hours is not enough. That's to MAINTAIN romantic love.
You need closer to 25-30 after an affair. When you are back where you should be Dr H recommends 15 hours UA time, 15 hours family time. That's why HNHN is the wrong book for you.
Originally Posted by SEJ3
It would be difficult right now. In two weeks we are spending the weekend at her friends lake cottage, but the kids are going with us. I have to work every other weekend so my next chance would be early Nov. I also coach my daughters basketball team so that takes time away from UA, but my wife attends all the games and does not want me to stop coaching, nor do I. We agreed that we will work on spending time together, but that we can work around the basketball season. I also host a basketball tournament in March that my wife helps me with and we plan it together.
We are trying our best to put the focus on us, without spending too little time with the children.
Your children need you to put the romantic relationship right first. That is their bedrock.
I bet your children would be delighted to hear you are going to spend some time together.
One of the reasons for exposure to all is so that people will help and support you. You need everyone to rally around and cover for you during this very vulnerable time.
In fact I've heard Dr H recommend a few weeks away to kick start recovery.
I find it a bit alarming that there are so many priorities ahead of time together at the weekend. If this is your schedule at a time of crisis, you're both bound to slip into bad habits and busy schedules again as soon as things feel more settled.
I'd recommend wiping your schedule clean for a bit while you form new habits. Get someone else to stand in for coaching for a while. There's nothing stopping you both going to the games or going back to it later on. Ask the friends if they will babysit or take a rain check for another time (if they're close friends, they'll know why, right?)
Get the UA time in first. Get used to a whole new schedule where UA time is concreted in your diaries before anything else.
The idea is to fit family time, other activities and friends in AFTER you have prioritised UA time. Not tucking UA time in around the corners of a busy life where other things are the priority.
I can see why your wife likes your coaching your daughter. She clearly has a high FC need. However you can go back to that later. You need to concentrate on the four intimate needs for now.
On all the great advice I have booked a 4 day weekend starting Nov 1. Although I would have loved to take her to the Crescent it was just too far away. We will be staying in a cabin in southern indiana. She is exicted about the trip. My parents have agreed to keep the kids.
What indiegirl has told you is EXACTLY right -- Please listen to her. All of the other stuff on your schedule is not even close to as important as your marital relationship. Prioritizing superfluous activities ahead of it is a huge mistake. Think of your marriage as the foundation for all of these other things -- Right now your foundation is shaky -- as though it is sitting upon sand -- without a secure foundation everything falls. Secure your foundation FIRST. Build it upon a rock -- without that, everything else will fall apart.
On all the great advice I have booked a 4 day weekend starting Nov 1. Although I would have loved to take her to the Crescent it was just too far away. We will be staying in a cabin in southern indiana. She is exicted about the trip. My parents have agreed to keep the kids.
That is a great thing, but you must carve out more time together between now and then too. Don't put your marriage on the back burner thinking you can make up for lost time "later".
Question? To give you some more background, before the affair my wife had pretty much checked out leaving me to do most of the housework(cooking, cleaning, homework with kids, baths etc). But since then I come home to a clean house and supper on the table. My wife helps the kids with their homework and helps with their baths.
She seems to be her old self except for the kissing and sex, which she assures me will return if I can just be patient.
I have found no evidence of her breaking the NC rule. I worry this is all to good to be true. The affair ended in April, with one contact again in August-when the entire truth finally surfaced. Her email to him at that time read "I have been wanting to call you all summer but thought it best if I didn't." This email prompted me to call the OM's wife and the next day all was exposed. My wife has seemed remorseful since this day of discovery.
Is this typical of someone who so selfishly put our family at risk? As you would expect I am very suspicious of everything now.
On all the great advice I have booked a 4 day weekend starting Nov 1. Although I would have loved to take her to the Crescent it was just too far away. We will be staying in a cabin in southern indiana. She is exicted about the trip. My parents have agreed to keep the kids.
P.s. indiegirl and mrsW are exactly right. It is critically important to the recovery of your marriage that you get some good, solid UA time in. The program does not work without it and I assure you she will not feel intimate with you unless you do.
Question? To give you some more background, before the affair my wife had pretty much checked out leaving me to do most of the housework(cooking, cleaning, homework with kids, baths etc). But since then I come home to a clean house and supper on the table. My wife helps the kids with their homework and helps with their baths.
I'd ask her if she is enthusiastic about doing these things and why she wasn't enthusiastic before.
There's a domestic support questionnaire on here somewhere which makes sure the tasks are shared out equally and that each person avoids doing the doing the things they hate most or avoids doing things they see as pointless. It causes a build up of resentment and as your wife has a tendency to be 'dutiful' on the surface and build up resentment below, I'd double check.
However since you use the phrase 'checked out' I'd hazard a guess her needs went unmet (did you spend very little time together then?) which can cause depression and withdrawal. Now you are spending time together she's perked up.
Originally Posted by SEJ3
I have found no evidence of her breaking the NC rule. I worry this is all to good to be true.
Keep snooping. Get all your spyware into place and don't inform her what your spyware is. All she needs know is that you require her entire life to be an open book to you.
The more you snoop and see nothing, the more you will see that she is genuinely earning your trust.
I don't see any particular alarm bells to be worried about. Exposure tends to have this sort of dramatic u-turn effect. Add in the fact you are meeting more needs now and more UA time, it makes sense that her mood is different.
Suspicion is good. The old blind trust of the past is dead and gone and from now on you will operate under the 'trust but verify' mode instead.
[ However since you use the phrase 'checked out' I'd hazard a guess her needs went unmet (did you spend very little time together then?) which can cause depression and withdrawal. Now you are spending time together she's perked up.
This is exactly what I thought when I read his comment. She sounded very depressed. And SEJ, you should know that when women are depressed it is almost always because of their marriage.
We talked about this last night, she says her entire life she has fought depression and I showed her the sexual aversion link on here which she read and highlighted for me. We both agree that this is where she is at. She says that early in our marriage that I would get mean when she would not have sex with me. I remember feeling frustrated and withdrawing from her when she we would refuse sex. The subject of sex has been an issue for several years in our marriage. I told her I was not trying to be mean and that what she was seeing was not anger, but hurt.
I have assured her that I will give her time. She promises to take steps to work through the aversion again asking me to be patient.
She is also going to ask her doctor about some additional medication for her depression, she has taken cymbalta for the last few years.
The link for aversion is well written for the person who actually has the aversion, but do you have any advice for the one that is not only hurt knowing sex was something she could so freely give to the OM but not her husband. I was already frustrated with the amount and quality of sex before the affair and now it is even more painful knowing she would prefer not to sleep with me.
We talked about this last night, she says her entire life she has fought depression and I showed her the sexual aversion link on here which she read and highlighted for me. We both agree that this is where she is at. She says that early in our marriage that I would get mean when she would not have sex with me. I remember feeling frustrated and withdrawing from her when she we would refuse sex. The subject of sex has been an issue for several years in our marriage. I told her I was not trying to be mean and that what she was seeing was not anger, but hurt.
I have assured her that I will give her time. She promises to take steps to work through the aversion again asking me to be patient.
She is also going to ask her doctor about some additional medication for her depression, she has taken cymbalta for the last few years.
SE, you've been such a gentleman of late, I'd own up to what you did here as a gentleman.
Yes you were hurt, and human beings, when hurt get tempted to be actively hurtful in their behaviour. You made a decision to be hurtful. A Selfish Demand is when you expect something to happen and punish when it does not. Punishment can take the form of making a cold, unpleasant atmosphere for the person being punished. If you own up to what you did here, it will make her feel a whole lot better than your dismissing it as being 'hurt' - as that does not cover your decision to be hurtful. It implies you would do the same again next time your feelings get hurt.
When you get your copy of SAA, you will read that Sue and John's marriage went south shortly after he stopped spending much UA time with her. His needs of PA, RC and SF did not need as much time as her need for conversation and affection, so he felt all was fine.
They go out after not seeing each other for a while one night for a romantic meal. They would usually have SF after a night out, and Sue is alarmed to discover she has no desire. She does not confess this to John and instead fakes desire and loses her opportunity to share this warning signal with him.
When you get the book, I'd read through this part with your wife. I'd reassure her that you would now regard any future loss of desire as a USEFUL and early warning signal and that you would appreciate her sharing this useful barometer of hers with you.
Of course it never will happen because you're never going to let that happen with UA time, are you?
The link for aversion is well written for the person who actually has the aversion, but do you have any advice for the one that is not only hurt knowing sex was something she could so freely give to the OM but not her husband. I was already frustrated with the amount and quality of sex before the affair and now it is even more painful knowing she would prefer not to sleep with me.
There is no need to be hurt regarding her past pre-A aversion. It was something she simply could not avoid. Her sex drive is not like yours, it needs fuel. Her car was in working order and all waiting for you to drive it, so to speak, it just never got fuelled up enough to go anywhere.
Of course her desire during the A is something she COULD avoid and you are right to be hurt she did this. She allowed someone else to fuel her and that was awful. That is something she can never take back or undo.
Originally Posted by SEJ3
it is even more painful knowing she would prefer not to sleep with me.
I dont think that is true. I think she wants the desire to return and to have fulfilling sex with you. I think she looks forward to her fuel tank being filled up and her car going to fun places with you.
She has told me the same thing, that she knows I will respond differently than I did in the past, but yet she still has the old feelings when the subject of sex comes up. She tells me she sees how hard I am working on repairing our marriage, and I have been. I told her I refuse to return to the marriage we had pre-affair and that our new marriage must be full of love, respect, and a desire to meet each others needs. She says she agrees.
I have felt rejected for so long because she would not desire sex, and I was totally unaware that I may have caused her aversion. I could not understand why she just didn't seem to want me.
I honestly want to help her get through this, I just wish Dr.Harley would provide more advice to the spouse without the aversion. What is the best way to be supportive of her while I feel physical pain inside knowing she currently can't connect with me in this way. No matter how hard I try, I keep thinking about her actively wanting sex with the OM but avoiding it with me. This is a great source of hurt for me, but I try to tell myself to keep focusing on what she needs and things will be ok.
No matter how hard I try, I keep thinking about her actively wanting sex with the OM but avoiding it with me. This is a great source of hurt for me, but I try to tell myself to keep focusing on what she needs and things will be ok.
It's not real, you know. Affairees are like two cocaine addicts who are out of their minds on a false high. They tell each other the silliest stuff and they don't mean a word of it. Similarly the SF, well it's just done on a short term chemical high without any real desire at all. The brain chemistry is completely whacked.
Go and read the ironically named Gentleman X's post about his 'heartfelt letter ' posted on the SAA forum if you don't believe me. That is a man who once persuaded a good woman to marry him and now his brain is mush. Every wayward we speak to here sounds drunk. The OM in the A got your wife while she was drunk, that's all.
That doesn't make it any less revolting, I understand. I just want you to realise that you and she will build the real deal and that the A was not true desire but an abomination.
We both agree that this is where she is at. She says that early in our marriage that I would get mean when she would not have sex with me. I remember feeling frustrated and withdrawing from her when she we would refuse sex. The subject of sex has been an issue for several years in our marriage. I told her I was not trying to be mean and that what she was seeing was not anger, but hurt.
I am sure that had a lasting effect on her and has a great deal to do with her aversion. She came to associate your mean behavior with sex. The fact that you were not "trying to be mean" doesn't mean you weren't.
I honestly want to help her get through this, I just wish Dr.Harley would provide more advice to the spouse without the aversion. What is the best way to be supportive of her while I feel physical pain inside knowing she currently can't connect with me in this way. No matter how hard I try, I keep thinking about her actively wanting sex with the OM but avoiding it with me. This is a great source of hurt for me, but I try to tell myself to keep focusing on what she needs and things will be ok.
The only thing you can do is meet the ENs that she is letting you meet. I know this is hard for you but you have to have to get over the fact that she was willing to have sex with OM. It happened. IMO there is a silver lining here. The fact that she was willing with OM means that she doesn't likely have any underlying chemical reasons behind her aversion.
It's truly unfortunate that you have to put one of your ENs away for a while when she was the wayward, but those are the facts in your case. Don't bring it up until she's ready. Even the physical affection you show should not be overtly sexual. Hugs, kisses, back/neck rubs, hand holding, snuggling are all fine but she has to know you aren't trying to go further. Does she appreciate public displays of affection? Do these at the grocery store. When she's ready to get back in to SF, don't get all "yes! this is going to be great!". You have to treat her first and make sure she gets the F in SF. Otherwise it's about you.
SEJ3, I want to give you some hope, because you are headed towards a marriage where your needs are met and her needs are met. There is a thread over on MB101 started by a woman who had this same issue, a sexual aversion. In a short period of time, she overcame the aversion using Dr Harley's suggestions.
And the more undivided attention time you get every week, the FASTER your wife will be in love with you. So you can't afford to slack at all in that department.
Thank you. I just read that entire thread and it is encouraging. Now I need to do what my wife asks and be patient. I just spoke with her on the phone and she said she is going to do her first exercise today. I told her that made me very happy and reminded her that I am looking forward to our date tonight.
I promise not to bring up sex or kissing until she is ready. I am willing to put aside my most important EN for awhile so that I can get the marriage we deserve.
Just one more comment about the aversion. I have told her that I realize my reactions in the past to her not wanting sex were wrong, and I can clearly see how they have lead her to where she is at.
When I told her that it "hurt", that was just me trying to let her understand that for me sex is more than just release, it is a time for me to connect with her and it that it makes me feel loved.
I am by no means thinking that I have no responibilty in creating her aversion or trying to talk her out of how I made her feel. I know I handled poorly, I am trying to let her know that she will not have to experience that reaction from me in the future.
When I told her that it "hurt", that was just me trying to let her understand that for me sex is more than just release, it is a time for me to connect with her and it that it makes me feel loved.
That's good. Just as you need to understand how SF is different to her, she needs to get how it is different to you.
Her SF is definetly something we will need to work on. She has always said she had no drive, and that it was not important to her. But with the OM it was. It was very disturbing to find out that the aversion was only with me. Again more of reason for me to be understanding and patient so she can work through this.
Just one more comment about the aversion. I have told her that I realize my reactions in the past to her not wanting sex were wrong, and I can clearly see how they have lead her to where she is at.
When I told her that it "hurt", that was just me trying to let her understand that for me sex is more than just release, it is a time for me to connect with her and it that it makes me feel loved.
I am by no means thinking that I have no responibilty in creating her aversion or trying to talk her out of how I made her feel. I know I handled poorly, I am trying to let her know that she will not have to experience that reaction from me in the future.
Neediness is not an attractive trait to women. Heavy talks about this is a major turn-off. She is your Wife..Seduce her! Do you know how to effectively do this?
Find out how she likes it and hit it out of the park !
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Her SF is definetly something we will need to work on. She has always said she had no drive, and that it was not important to her. But with the OM it was. It was very disturbing to find out that the aversion was only with me. Again more of reason for me to be understanding and patient so she can work through this.
trust me..she has a drive..you are not hitting the buttons my man..
Stop being needy. Dripping her with your neediness is going to push her further away.
Man up and have some confidence in yourself. Get some books...find a way to step up your game. This is important. You can do it. I know you can. Get that inner animal out of you and make it happen!
If I had to guess (and yes it is a guess) I would say that you have been needy and approached the whole SF from a place of neediness. Have you ever begged for it or had to 'talk her into it'? this will get you nowhere.
YOU have to lead the charge like a man. Seduce her. Create romantic situations. Be cool, and collective. Never beg. Be strong and confident. THAT is what will turn her on.
If she wants it, great! go for it. If not, no big deal. Go make yourself a sandwich and wait for the right opportunity. Don't act disappointed or make it a big deal.
Be like Clint Eastwood. Why do women find him irresistible? Because he is cool with however it goes. He is CONFIDENT. They know he will fully Pleasure THEM. They flock to HIM. He never begs for anything. Get the idea?
Stop with the heavy talk. She thinks there is an expectation of her to perform with you. THAT is your problem.
SF needs to be SPONTANIOUS and HOT not..planned out..heavy talks..expectations... blah blah blah..that takes away all of the romance.
Dr. Harley says a woman needs two things in order to be able to enjoy SF:
1) an emotional connection/bond with her husband (i.e. - she is in love with him. That is what this program creates.)
2) the prospect of enjoyment (i.e., you are going to make love to her in a way that she enjoys)
Prisca's sex drive is like a switch. It is literally on or off based on whether she is in love with me or not. The difference is amazing.
This agrees with what Dr. Harley says men report: the transition above the romantic love threshold in a wife's love bank is not gradual, but sudden, and dramatic. Dr. Harley has had men call him and ask if their wives were taking hormones or something, because previously she had no interest in sex at all and then suddenly she can't get enough of it. It is like crack cocaine to them all of a sudden, when conditions 1 and 2 above are met!
There is something about romantic love that creates a special incentive to do the things that the other person needs. So a man and a woman that are in love with each other romantically -- which this person doesn't seem to value (not yet, we hope he'll get there, yes) -- if they're in love with each other romantically, your emotions kick in and encourage you to do things that you might not need yourself.
Woman become far more sexually oriented when they are in love. They are more interested in helping them out domestically; they are more interested in looking better for him. They are more interested in going to football games along with him and participating in his recreational activities.
And men, when they're in love, they're more interested in talking to her for hours at a time, to being affectionate with her; they are interested in being more honest and open. In other words, they are more interested in meeting each other's needs when they're in love.
So, the point of my seminars, and the books that I write, says, look: being in love is a big deal. It'll make your relationship really move along, and be very, very, very good for you, and all of his "utility needs" end up being met in a relationship where there is mutual love.
Dr. Harley says a woman needs two things in order to be able to enjoy SF:
1) an emotional connection/bond with her husband (i.e. - she is in love with him. That is what this program creates.)
2) the prospect of enjoyment (i.e., you are going to make love to her in a way that she enjoys)
Prisca's sex drive is like a switch. It is literally on or off based on whether she is in love with me or not. The difference is amazing.
This agrees with what Dr. Harley says men report: the transition above the romantic love threshold in a wife's love bank is not gradual, but sudden, and dramatic. Dr. Harley has had men call him and ask if their wives were taking hormones or something, because previously she had no interest in sex at all and then suddenly she can't get enough of it. It is like crack cocaine to them all of a sudden, when conditions 1 and 2 above are met!
Exactly!!! That made me about lose the water out of my mouth on my keyboard, Marcos.
So true. So true.
Date her. Seduce her. Make yourself irresistible. Work out and look your best. Meet as many of her EN's as humanly possible.
Focus on items 1 and 2 above. DROP the expectations/Neediness.
The bigger deal YOU make of it..the bigger deal it becomes.
Dr. Harley says a woman needs two things in order to be able to enjoy SF:
1) an emotional connection/bond with her husband (i.e. - she is in love with him. That is what this program creates.)
2) the prospect of enjoyment (i.e., you are going to make love to her in a way that she enjoys)
Prisca's sex drive is like a switch. It is literally on or off based on whether she is in love with me or not. The difference is amazing.
This agrees with what Dr. Harley says men report: the transition above the romantic love threshold in a wife's love bank is not gradual, but sudden, and dramatic. Dr. Harley has had men call him and ask if their wives were taking hormones or something, because previously she had no interest in sex at all and then suddenly she can't get enough of it. It is like crack cocaine to them all of a sudden, when conditions 1 and 2 above are met!
Exactly!!! That made me about lose the water out of my mouth on my keyboard, Marcos.
Which incidentally usually isn't very attractive, either.
Though I can usually make some conversation LB deposits by sending Prisca a link and saying that's what happened when I read it. Go figure!
Like Markos said, being in love is 90% of the battle. Like Dr Harley says, once I resolve the problems in the marriage, the sex problem resolves itself. Sex is almost ENTIRELY a matter of emotional intimacy to a woman. A guy who is great in bed will be revolting if she is not in love with him.
This is why it is so important to get good quality UA time [out on dates and vacations!] at the right frequency. That is the only way to restore romantic love to your marriage.
There is something about romantic love that creates a special incentive to do the things that the other person needs. So a man and a woman that are in love with each other romantically -- which this person doesn't seem to value (not yet, we hope he'll get there, yes) -- if they're in love with each other romantically, your emotions kick in and encourage you to do things that you might not need yourself.
Woman become far more sexually oriented when they are in love. They are more interested in helping them out domestically; they are more interested in looking better for him. They are more interested in going to football games along with him and participating in his recreational activities.
And men, when they're in love, they're more interested in talking to her for hours at a time, to being affectionate with her; they are interested in being more honest and open. In other words, they are more interested in meeting each other's needs when they're in love.
So, the point of my seminars, and the books that I write, says, look: being in love is a big deal. It'll make your relationship really move along, and be very, very, very good for you, and all of his "utility needs" end up being met in a relationship where there is mutual love.
So do this mean we have to turn our wives into crack hoes?
Update. Took my wife on date last night, and we had a great time. It was one of those nights you don't want to end. She started talking about all the things we should do in the future and we really talked and laughed a lot. I cannot believe the turn around. Our relationship seems to be changing very quickly. She went from hardly speaking to me, to ending every sentence by calling me Honey. I can't help but feel a bit skeptical. Can someone really go from having an affair back to their spouse so quickly?
We ended our evening by giving each other complete body rubs,(no sex, no kissing) which she has suggested we do the same tonight when I get off work.
That's great! I think you put the nail in the coffin of the affair when you exposed to your kids. You burst that balloon and made the affair an impossible future goal. You have also been showing her how much you CARE about her feelings by giving her that article about sexual aversion. I bet that issue has tormented her for YEARS.
Just keep doing what you are doing. At first it will be good one day and bad the next until you have more and more of those good days.
It was also caring to go after the affair so doggedly and ruin it so completely.
No matter what un-withdrawn WWs say, no woman wants a man who doesnt care enough to run off the competition. The men who sit around and won't expose stand no chance.
On some level, she sees how much you want this. Every day you are getting up and hitting all the targets - care, protection, time.
Yes, it is quick - but you have done a LOT in a short space of time.
Taking one day at a time, and today was another good day. I am working an evening shift today but talked with my wife for a good hour this am(UA) and before I left she told me she really wished I could stay home, and asked what the possibilty of me calling off was. I told her I was the only manager in the plant tonight so I could not, but that I would love it if I could.
She gave me a hug and kiss(peck) and told me she loved me as I left. Still no indication of sex or a real passionate kiss but for now I will take it! I can't wait to get home to see her.
Tried to think outside the box today. My wife loves hearing stories about spiritual healing and watches paranormal shows on TV, so today I booked her an appointment with a spiritual healer(even though I don't believe in this sort of thing). When I told her that on our upcoming vacation she has an hour long session with a healer, she actually got tears in her eyes and told me she couldn't believe I would do that for her. She hugged me and said she loves me.
She has told me she loves me more in the last week, than in the previous two years. Thank you Dr.Harley and MB.
SEJ3, it makes me so happy to see you are having such a good recovery. I just found out of my husband's infidelity last week, and still very raw, but reading you makes me feel so much entusiastic, thanks so much for sharing!!
Tried to think outside the box today. My wife loves hearing stories about spiritual healing and watches paranormal shows on TV, so today I booked her an appointment with a spiritual healer(even though I don't believe in this sort of thing). When I told her that on our upcoming vacation she has an hour long session with a healer, she actually got tears in her eyes and told me she couldn't believe I would do that for her. She hugged me and said she loves me.
She has told me she loves me more in the last week, than in the previous two years. Thank you Dr.Harley and MB.
This is wonderful, SE.
It sounds like you are in the state of intimacy, definitely.
I believe we are getting close to being in a state of intimacy, but still no SF. She continues to do the exercises from the aversion section. We do touch each other much more than ever before(hugs, cuddling, holding hands in public, back rubs etc.) but we have not returned to having a sexual relationship.
She reports that she is doing well with the exercises but she still has not approached me for SF. When we discussed her aversion she asked that I let her come to me. I so much want to initiate something with her but have promised not to until she is ready. I am doing my best to live up to this promise, but she is so beautiful, so sexy, and has my heart. This is a difficult promise to keep.
I have to remind myself for a full recovery I have to "let her come to me"
Ok- my wife says she feels ready for sex, but not for kissing. She says during the aversion exercises that kissing brings up more anxiety for her.
Not sure what to think or do on this one????
Let me remind you all that kissing the OM was what she told me she enjoyed the most about the sexual relationship she had with the OM.
Confused, should I wait for her to get over the aversion to kissing before proceeding? On my end, having sex with her now and no kissing would be very emotionally painful for me. On the other hand if it would help her to get over the aversion I do not want to refuse partial intimacy.
She also has asked what advice I had gotten on the problem of her not being able to french kiss me, I can tell it bothers her too but she is not sure how to overcome her problem. Would it be best to try and convince her to post on here as well? Please help us.
Why don't you just take it slow and wait until she is ready for now? I would also MAKE SURE you do this as an "event" as suggested by Dr Harley. Do you know what I mean by that? You spend the evening on a date meeting her needs of conversation, affection, recreational companionship.
That is a good idea, but do I wait until she feels ready to kiss me? I don't want her to feel she has to rush past her issues so she can meet my EN. I have a gut feeling that is what she is trying to do.
Ok- my wife says she feels ready for sex, but not for kissing. She says during the aversion exercises that kissing brings up more anxiety for her.
Not sure what to think or do on this one????
As the BH, I found it much more difficult to have passionate kisses than sex with my W. I know that she VERY MUCH enjoyed "making out" with OM so it made me ill if I gave her more than a peck on the lips for a while (still does a bit). I would guess she's not wanting to kiss because you have to be passionately in love to passionately kiss; she might not be there yet. For sex, she just needs to feel emotionally connected to you and have the prospect of enjoyment, so maybe she has that. I would take her up on it, but make it big production, the icing on the cake at the end of a four hour date. Unless she's sacrificing, in which case, you should wait until she is in enthusiastic agreement and keep doing what you have been doing. It seems to be working.
That is a good idea, but do I wait until she feels ready to kiss me? I don't want her to feel she has to rush past her issues so she can meet my EN. I have a gut feeling that is what she is trying to do.
No, don't wait because having sex will make her feel more bonded to you. And make sure you do it in a way that is very enjoyable to her.
Why would kissing cause more anxiety than sex? That seems backwards to me.
Is she being completely honest with you about this? For example, if I were emotionally detached from my husband, I would not want him to "French" kiss me. That feels so invasive. How would she feel if you didn't try to kiss her that way but kissed her the other way?
Do you have good dental hygiene? Would she be honest with you if you didn't?
I am absolutely sure it is not a dental hygiene issue, I brush at least 3 times per day, floss and visit my dentist. I even make sure I use mouthwash before even attempting a kiss for extra insurance.
She will kiss me(peck style) but that is it. We kiss that way several times per day. No long kisses ever.
Next time you are walking by her, stop, kiss her neck behind her ear. stop.. continue on your way. Kissing doesn't have to be all mouths/lips!
Kiss her fingertips, just once, when you are talking about a non-sexual subject.
Touch her knee when you are sitting beside each other in the car, encircling it, but don't go any higher.
Kiss the inside of her elbow just before you get out of bed in the morning. Then get up.
Kiss her forehead prior to heading off to work.
Trace her jawline with our fingertips, and follow your fingers with your eyes. Then stop.
Get the idea? Treat her like a precious object, but then stop, continue on your way, without pushing anywhere into the foreplay zone. You are SHOWING her your love with actions, not just with your words. Cherish her.
Thanks for the great advice. For now I will take it slow. Holding out for enthusiasm may take a long time, but I believe you are right- that is what needs to be.
Just received SAA Tuesday and completed reading it last night. My wife says she will take a look at it as well. After reading it, I do wish we would have started with this book. HNHN made me feel more like the affair was my fault.
Just received SAA Tuesday and completed reading it last night. My wife says she will take a look at it as well. After reading it, I do wish we would have started with this book. HNHN made me feel more like the affair was my fault.
I really blew it last night. We had a date and I could not control my thoughts or anxiety.
While going through our phone records I found an incoming call from the OM, however the date was the day before DDay. Even so my wife had said she had not spoken to the OM, which is probably true- call duration said 0 mins, but her not telling me he called made me upset. His number was not on the caller ID so I know she had to of erased it, but says she did not know he called. Again this was the day before discovery.
We had made so much progress and now I feel bad. Just seeing his number triggered so many feelings I couldn't control myself, I brought up the affair and really did not give us an opportunity to enjoy our evening out. When we returned home, my wife said she would not speak to me the rest of the night, which she would not even answer the simplest question. She did sleep in our bed, but it was not a good night.
I feel I owe her a sincere apology, but I just could not contain myself last night.
I feel I owe her a sincere apology, but I just could not contain myself last night.
SEJ, your marriage cannot afford any of these eruptions. I completely sympathize with you, but you just can't afford it. When you feel triggered, come HERE and unload on us, never, ever on her. You can't afford the damage caused by your outbursts.
Send her some flowers and apologize to her. Make sure she knows this won't happen again.
I feel I owe her a sincere apology, but I just could not contain myself last night.
That's a bum deal. But you know what you have to do it seems.
I've had a couple of times when I couldn't contain myself either. I thought I would pop. It never solved anything and I felt better only for a fraction of a second. The aftermath of each of those events was far worse then the anxiety I felt before.
Your W's reposnse is typical and acceptable when you treat her this way. Never again SEJ3.
Ok I stepped out of the office ran to her favorite coffee shop took her home a latte and told her I realized how wrong I was. I apologized and asked her to forgive me, then told her I really want to get back on track and that I will not let it happen again. She gave me a hug and a kiss, told me that when I do something like last night it makes her take a couple of steps back, but she wants us to get back to the MB program as well.
I still remain hopeful, and closer to my wife than I have in a long time. She says the same.
There are a lot of steps before a kiss. Many posters here know that the best sex is in the mind of which a kiss is a part. Sex may even take over a day and a kiss should be delayed before it has effect.
You may want to try flirting then integrate this with haptic communication (hug, touch, hold and tickle). Please learn the art of the various massages.
There a range of sensitive places on a woman such as the neck and ear. Begin by a neck massage to ease out the tension, breathe on her hair and talk to her about the tension.
Eventually this may enlarge to a gentle hug and tiny kisses. Learn the technique of building tension. Change to the massage of toes, go near erogenous zones and tell her that a part of the foot controls her genitals (apparently it does).
Women respond to aural stimulus. Even your breathing will get her going.
Practice with petting a dog or cat and watch their reaction.
I promise you that my wife jumps me if I get the technique right!!
Ok I stepped out of the office ran to her favorite coffee shop took her home a latte and told her I realized how wrong I was. I apologized and asked her to forgive me, then told her I really want to get back on track and that I will not let it happen again. She gave me a hug and a kiss, told me that when I do something like last night it makes her take a couple of steps back, but she wants us to get back to the MB program as well.
I still remain hopeful, and closer to my wife than I have in a long time. She says the same.
Here is to a better day!
Great!
Don't ever tell yourself that you "can't contain yourself" again. It's a lie. You can. You need to learn how.
If you ever do this again, I'd strongly suggest you go through the relaxation therapy Dr. Harley recommends for anger management - you'll learn how to relax and think and problem solve when you are frustrated, instead of unloading and making your spouse miserable.
If you tell yourself that you can't do it, you are training yourself to do the exact opposite of what you need to do.
I was going to suggest doing some work on AOs too.
SE just can't afford another AO, however light. I think his wife is also reminded of past 'mean' behaviour whenever he does this. They'll never get anywhere like that.
SE, I can tell you that I used to have AOs that could be compared to nuclear incidents. As soon as I found MB I was cured - I discovered it wasn't effective and I was only hurting myself! I handled my plan A, exposure, and a ranting, unrepentant wayward without a single AO on my part. If I can do it in those circumstances, any one can.
I know Markos has had a similar benefit in eliminating AOs.
How'd you like to spend the rest of your life being cool and in control no matter what happens? James Bond style?
So glad I found MB, I went from feeling all alone and that nobody could understand what I was feeling to knowing that there are others out there that know exactly how I feel,and have been through similar events. All of you that have taken the time to post, I just want to say thanks. You have helped me more than you know.
I will continue to put your advice into action. I completely understand that AO's cannot happen. I have decided to make sure I control my AO's they are NOT productive.
Thanks again for not letting me get away with anything. Your support has been just what I needed to make sure I am being the best husband I can be.
This was a bad weekend for my wife, her grandfather passed away. There was a lot of turmoil within their family, and I just tried to be there to support her. She said she was going to the hospital by herself when we got the call, but I arranged a babysitter and spent the day with her. When we got home she told me she was glad I was there for her.
She said she just wants things to be good at home while she deals with her loss.
This loss has really stirred up a lot of old hurts for my wife. When she was 12 her father left and she has not spoken to him since. This is very similar to her own mother and grandfathers relationship(her mom did not speak to her father in the past 16 years). She asked me yesterday to help her reconcile or at least get some closer to her relationship(or lack of) with her own dad so she doesn't have to live with the pain her mother is going through now.
My job as I see it - be the rock for my wife and support her any way I can.
Wife is still doing the 15 minutes a day as Dr. Harley suggests to get over her aversion, she informed me that today we will sit down together and review the notes she has been taking during this time. She says she is ready for sex with no kissing.
Any advice before I get home and have this talk would be appreciated. Still no sex- no kissing but like I have said every other part of our marriage seems to be going great. She says she agrees.
What does "ready" mean? Part of MB is giving really clear communication.
Does ready mean she actually wants to have sex? She should not do anything where there is not something in it for her.
Some women want sex out of desire. Has she reached that point? Some want to have their affection need met. Does she want affection to be expressed in a sexual sense? How? Some women want to be admired and experience a sexual response. Is that what she wants?
I have a sneaking suspicion she is still in sacrifice mode and wants to do it 'for you'.
So when she says 'ready'? - ask - Why? What's in it for you? Why would it be good for you?
She should not be concerned about the relationship, sex is not the basis for love and you two are doing great.
Do you think emailing Dr Harley might help reassure her? She sounds as if she is getting a bit panicky regarding timescale.
Indiegirl I believe you are correct in your assessment. It has been a month since we have had sex, and even though I try to assure her she should not feel pressured I feel like she is wanting to just for me.
Here is my problem I do very much want to have sex with my wife, but not at her expense. She knows how much I want this and is putting additional pressure on herself to get to the point of having it with me. How do you handle desiring something so bad and also convince someone else it is ok not to?
Indiegirl I believe you are correct in your assessment. It has been a month since we have had sex, and even though I try to assure her she should not feel pressured I feel like she is wanting to just for me.
Here is my problem I do very much want to have sex with my wife, but not at her expense. She knows how much I want this and is putting additional pressure on herself to get to the point of having it with me. How do you handle desiring something so bad and also convince someone else it is ok not to?
You are over thinking things. Your WW approached you. She wants to give it up. Make it fun for her. She is trying to reach you in steps. Pushing her back because her steps are not big enough is crazy.
Because it won't work for you either. It won't be any fun for you to get a dud response. You don't want endurance. Or to keep on this ferris wheel of sacrifice-aversion-sacrifice.
Wait for the true pay off. No one can keep desire at bay forever when the lovebank is mounting up. This panic of hers is just working against her.
Things are still going well with my wife, but I can't seem to get over the visions. They are not as frequent as a couple of months ago, but they still return. I do not want to bring up the affair since she opened up to me and answered all questions regardless of how painful they were to me or her.
Any suggestions on how to stop this movie in my head would be appreciated. She is doing really great at being transparent, open and honest, NC and is taking the EP very seriously. Even so, I can't stop seeing her with him.
I read where Dr. Harley said that when a women is in love she will have desire to be passionate and want SF. How does that relate when there is an aversion, does it mean she is still not in love with me. She tells me she loves me several times everyday. Maybe I am being overly sensitive, maybe we just need more time.
***EDIT SF description*** how can she do that, but not want to kiss me? I don't know just thought I would put all this out there to see what all you think.
I read where Dr. Harley said that when a women is in love she will have desire to be passionate and want SF. How does that relate when there is an aversion, does it mean she is still not in love with me. She tells me she loves me several times everyday. Maybe I am being overly sensitive, maybe we just need more time.
Right, she is not in love yet which is why the UA time is so important.
Can you ask her to write out her feelings about kissing you in an email and send it to you? It might be too hard to tell you to your face but she could do it this way.
Things are still going well with my wife, but I can't seem to get over the visions. They are not as frequent as a couple of months ago, but they still return. I do not want to bring up the affair since she opened up to me and answered all questions regardless of how painful they were to me or her.
You described it as something 'she' did - so you needn't feel selfish?!!
Why, where were you, out buying flowers?! You participated in this backslide too.
I doubt it was worth it. I doubt it gave you the emotional nutrition true enthusiasm would have done.
She treats your sex drive as though it is some sort of uncontrollable monster which needs to be appeased at all costs. Your past behaviour has coached her to appease you or she gets the brunt of the monster's displeasure.
I have more faith in you than that. I think you have self control (though you aren't behaving as though you do) and that you are patient and can wait for her.
I don't see how her lovebank will EVER reach the critical level if she remains in fear of you, rather than in love.
You must show more self control.
Were you not concerned or alarmed when she made such a move?
I know what you want. You are a red-blooded eager man. But...Indie is right, if she is sacrificing, it's a "no go" for you. It is NOT worth it. Weeks or months, there is timeline that works for her. I'm sure it will work for you IF YOU LET IT.
Only YOU can decide if she's sacrificing or if she's enthusiastic. I am hopeful for your success. Do the right thing...it seems like you know what it is.
I can feel my wife getting closer to me everyday. She greets me with a hug when I come home from work, and always comes and sits near me to tell me about her day. It is such a wonderful feeling to have her wanting to talk to me again. For so long she wouldn't even say a word when I would come home and I felt like we were just roommates passing in the hall.
I just completed remodeling our downstairs bathroom, which she had been requesting for awhile. She has not stopped talking about what a great job I did with it. She has called all of her friends telling them about it and how wonderful I made it look. You talk about depositing love units in my bank!!!!
We leave for our 1st vacation together(without kids that is) in the morning, she is already packed. I am extremely exicted about this. Before I left for work this am I went to kiss her forehead and she grabbed me and gave me a tight hug and then said "I can't wait to spend 4 days alone with you."
Anyone who does not believe that exposure works is a fool. My wife has changed so much after DD and the following exposure, I am still amazed when I think about it. Of course it has also helped that we have both embraced MB and have changed the way we interact with each other.
This is wonderful news, SE. Lovebank deposits mount up and up over time. If you stick to the program here you can't fail.
Did you ever get the RH you needed regarding the kissing sitauation? It may be all that is required is more time.
The only concern I have about you and your wife is that she isn't always radically honest/clear in communicating and you have to 'guess' what is truly happening with her.
Not sure on the kissing yet, but I can tell you she has been very flirty with me lately. She also said that part of her not wanting to kiss me was due to a bad habit of mine- using Skoal. She told me this about 4 days ago. I HAVE NOT used it since she told me. I told her she is more important than any bad habit. I purchased some nicotine gum, to help me through, but I am determined to be done with the tobacco.
Not sure on the kissing yet, but I can tell you she has been very flirty with me lately. She also said that part of her not wanting to kiss me was due to a bad habit of mine- using Skoal. She told me this about 4 days ago. I HAVE NOT used it since she told me. I told her she is more important than any bad habit. I purchased some nicotine gum, to help me through, but I am determined to be done with the tobacco.
We leave for our 1st vacation together(without kids that is) in the morning, she is already packed. I am extremely exicted about this. Before I left for work this am I went to kiss her forehead and she grabbed me and gave me a tight hug and then said "I can't wait to spend 4 days alone with you."
This is great!!!!!!!! I wouldn't french kiss anybody who used nasty baccy either, so hopefully fresh breath for a change will be the final thing to reel her in.
Don't you ever put that stuff in your mouth again!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm so happy for you.
It happened, as I was leaving home after lunch my wife grabbed me a gave me a big ole kiss. It was not rushed, quick, or uncomfortable. It was WONDERFUL. I can't describe how good it made me feel. As I walked out the door she gave me a little pat on the behind and said have a great day.
Not sure on the kissing yet, but I can tell you she has been very flirty with me lately. She also said that part of her not wanting to kiss me was due to a bad habit of mine- using Skoal. She told me this about 4 days ago. I HAVE NOT used it since she told me. I told her she is more important than any bad habit. I purchased some nicotine gum, to help me through, but I am determined to be done with the tobacco.
It happened, as I was leaving home after lunch my wife grabbed me a gave me a big ole kiss. It was not rushed, quick, or uncomfortable. It was WONDERFUL. I can't describe how good it made me feel. As I walked out the door she gave me a little pat on the behind and said have a great day.
It is a great day.
Yay Mrs S!!!
You two are becoming one of my favourite MB couples...
Where to start? Just returned from our mini vacation, wow we had a great time. This was something we needed, the time together was great! My favorite part of the trip was something my wife said to me, she said "I want you to know I recognize how strong you have been and how hard you have worked at keeping our family together through this horrible thing I did."
I have to say, for awhile I didn't think she saw anything I was doing to try and make our relationship work. It felt really good to have her acknowledge me for holding things together while she was deep in the fog.
And if you are wondering YES the SF was amazing, so much so I need a break, 4 days in a row, more than once a couple of days. Who is this woman? Hope I can keep up.
Where to start? Just returned from our mini vacation, wow we had a great time. This was something we needed, the time together was great! My favorite part of the trip was something my wife said to me, she said "I want you to know I recognize how strong you have been and how hard you have worked at keeping our family together through this horrible thing I did."
I have to say, for awhile I didn't think she saw anything I was doing to try and make our relationship work. It felt really good to have her acknowledge me for holding things together while she was deep in the fog.
And if you are wondering YES the SF was amazing, so much so I need a break, 4 days in a row, more than once a couple of days. Who is this woman? Hope I can keep up.
SE, I'm happy to see things are moving along in the right direction. Keep up the good work.
I do want to caution you that recovery is a marathon and not a sprint. You are on a roller coaster and along with the highs there will be lows. I can almost guarantee you that sometime in the near future things will get bad again. Prepare yourself for that and take it for what it is. A low on the recovery process. Don't make any permanent decisions one way or the other based on short term results. You are here for the long haul.
I do want to caution you that recovery is a marathon and not a sprint. You are on a roller coaster and along with the highs there will be lows. I can almost guarantee you that sometime in the near future things will get bad again. Prepare yourself for that and take it for what it is. A low on the recovery process. Don't make any permanent decisions one way or the other based on short term results. You are here for the long haul.
Only 3 months out from Dday myself, but that advice is key. It's great to have her on your side. You may both experience these "lows" at different times. Prop each other up. You've done great so far.
One thing I would caution though...I know it feels good that she acknowledges this "horrible thing she did", but it's best to not bring it up again. Either of you. You're in too good a place to bring up mistakes of the past and it seems you had all of your questions answered.
I do want to caution you that recovery is a marathon and not a sprint. You are on a roller coaster and along with the highs there will be lows. I can almost guarantee you that sometime in the near future things will get bad again. Prepare yourself for that and take it for what it is. A low on the recovery process. Don't make any permanent decisions one way or the other based on short term results. You are here for the long haul.
I have to comment on the �don�t do anything permanent� advice. On the surface, it sounds like it makes sense, but like so many things associated with infidelity, it can be taken the wrong way.
There are several levels at which I think this is not good. For most couples, breakup and divorce are the worst outcomes of infidelity. The costs, both emotional and financial, are enormous. So, what is the potential cost of the proposed �permanent decision�? Maybe $10,000? That�s nothing compared to what is going to happen to you in the divorce.
Yet look at the message that you are sending to your spouse by avoiding the decision. You are telling them that you are not fully into the recovery. You want to hedge your bets, just in case. You are more interested in protecting yourself than in recovering the marriage.
The most common �permanent decision� is to quit jobs, pull up roots, and move. Yet of all the possible things to do in recovery, moving is one the most successful. People willing to go to such lengths prove to each other that their marriage is important. To be unwilling to make this commitment signals a probable false recovery.
Commitment to recovery needs to be a 100% on the part of both spouses. You are going to have to take some chances. Don�t let fear cause you to fail.
Need advice. My wife is trying to do too much. She wants to make sure lunch is on the table when I get home for lunch, dinner on the table when I get home in the evening talking about how important it is to stick to the schedule we set on Sunday for UA. Making sure SF is to my satisfaction etc. When I ask what I can do for her she says I am taking care of all her needs.
If this sounds like we are doing great, I disagree, I know my wife and she is making herself a martyr and asking for nothing in return. I can see the stress she is putting on herself for what reason I do not know. She has taken my list of EN's and is going to extreme to meet them.
I have tried to discuss this with her, but she says everything is fine and if she didn't want to do all this she wouldn't, but she says she is trying to make me happy.
This is not making me happy, I did not ask for her to be a servant, nor do I want one. This makes me feel anxious and unsettled, I know this is leading us to a bad place. I have told her how it makes me feel, but she replies these were needs you have that I was not meeting, and I want to make sure they are met.
I have seen her do this before, take on so much for others and then become resentful that she "has to do everything". That is most certainly not the case. I do not mind sharing the cooking, cleaning or any other day to day chore. I am willing to do anything she desires to fulfill her needs, but she will not tell me what her needs are, only that I am meeting all of her needs(which my gut tells me I am not).
I do understand your concern, but here is another angle. Why don't you simply step up your game and attempt to meet her needs at a higher level as well? Might turn into a lot of fun!
Need advice. My wife is trying to do too much. She wants to make sure lunch is on the table when I get home for lunch, dinner on the table when I get home in the evening talking about how important it is to stick to the schedule we set on Sunday for UA. Making sure SF is to my satisfaction etc. When I ask what I can do for her she says I am taking care of all her needs.
If this sounds like we are doing great, I disagree, I know my wife and she is making herself a martyr and asking for nothing in return. I can see the stress she is putting on herself for what reason I do not know. She has taken my list of EN's and is going to extreme to meet them.
I have tried to discuss this with her, but she says everything is fine and if she didn't want to do all this she wouldn't, but she says she is trying to make me happy.
This is not making me happy, I did not ask for her to be a servant, nor do I want one. This makes me feel anxious and unsettled, I know this is leading us to a bad place. I have told her how it makes me feel, but she replies these were needs you have that I was not meeting, and I want to make sure they are met.
I have seen her do this before, take on so much for others and then become resentful that she "has to do everything". That is most certainly not the case. I do not mind sharing the cooking, cleaning or any other day to day chore. I am willing to do anything she desires to fulfill her needs, but she will not tell me what her needs are, only that I am meeting all of her needs(which my gut tells me I am not).
What do I do????
First off I want to applaud your vigilance in keeping a wary eye out for sacrifice. Very well done indeed.
You aren't enthusiastic about her doing so much, it worries you. So do what Dr Harley suggests when you want a different plan in place. Make a thoughtful request with her aims in mind. You want her to do less, she wants to please you, that's actually a fairly easy PoJA goal to reach. Keep the 'How would you feel?' phrase handy.
'I want to pick us up some lunch, Would you like that?' 'I'd really like it if we cleaned up together after dinner, would you?' 'How about I do x, y, z around the house for you. I really want to, how do you feel?'
If you feel she is doing SF 'for you', that's a problem because she needs to really work on focusing on her own pleasure to get over or prevent a recurrence of her aversion. Lots of women have this really bad habit of categorising SF as one of the chores that keep their H happy.
If that is the case, I'd steer clear of any SF you feel is a sacrifice for her. Stuff you feel she only does for you. I'd tell her how much you love doing (something you feel is good for her) instead because her reaction is so pleasing to you. Didn't you say she like massage? Try making sure she not only gets stuff like that but that she knows how happy it makes you when she is responding well.
I'd also consider bringing Steve Harley or an MB marriage coach in. The problem with sacrificers is that they tend not to believe you when you say you don't want their sacrifices.
A neutral third party may have more luck in convincing her when saying: "Listen, he doesn't want this."
Given that her sacrificing gave her a sexual aversion it is super important that you nip this in the bud and give her the help she needs to give her feelings equal priority.
She's pretty keen on doing MB by the sound of it, so take advantage of that. How about you both sit down and go through the PoJA steps one by one until you reach an enthusiastic agreement on how to do lunch. Make it very clear that you are not enthusiastic about her doing it all.
Indiegirl, yes she has always been like this, not just with me she is a sacrificer in most of her relationships. I have seen her do this with friends and on committees she joins.
She will go all in doing things over and beyond her responsibilites and she will gain positive feedback from others which makes her work harder, until the day comes she just flips and says they expect too much from me. This is exactly why I am concerned. It is difficult to distinguish between her geniune desire and the sacrificing. I asked her to make sure she is being honest with herself when she does these things. I want her to ask herself if she is doing all of this because it makes her happy, or because she feels it is her duty.
You make a very good point about going through the POJA, I will try that. She told me last night I shouldn't worry she is not doing too much and she wants to show me she is in this marriage 100%.
You make a very good point about going through the POJA, I will try that. She told me last night I shouldn't worry she is not doing too much and she wants to show me she is in this marriage 100%.
Can you go through the chapter on POJA in His Needs, Her Needs to make sure she understands how bad sacrifice is for her marriage?
she is a sacrificer in most of her relationships. I have seen her do this with friends and on committees she joins.
She will go all in doing things over and beyond her responsibilites and she will gain positive feedback from others which makes her work harder, until the day comes she just flips and says they expect too much from me.
Just FYI, I have a friend who is married to something of a sacrificer. He is one of those people with a clear admiration need, so he goes wherever he can get the best compliments. Or where he just feels that he is helping the most. That's what makes him happy.
It's seen him neglect home and family so as to volunteer for this group or spend an entire weekend helping a not-so-good friend move. His wife makes the classic mistake of taking his input at home for granted, so he has stopped giving her any help. No compliments mean no effort. Strangers and acquaintances are however quite complimentary because his dedication to them is such a generous surprise.
However when he gets closer in and more accepted by a group or a friend, they take him more and more for granted. Fewer compliments. Then he cracks and says to his wife that people expect too much of him.
I don't know if this is at all like your wife, but I thought it may be. If she has a high need for admiration, she will need lots of compliments. Those with high admiration needs don't like to think poorly of themselves either. As a FWW she will also feel like she needs to earn back her old self image as a good wife. And so she does, but JC doesn't involve her being a slave.
This sounds just like my wife. By the way the guy she had an affair with gave her many compliments, so this makes sense. When she filled out a love language test, her highest ranking was oddly physical touch(which she says is not important to her) and then admiration.
This is not something she shared with me, but in an email I read while checking up on her during her affair.
Was starting to think I wouldn't need to come back here to post, but last night when I got home I found a letter addressed to my wife's om. The letter was quite lengthy and let me preface it by saying she says her physciatrist encouraged her to write him a letter from the state of mind she was in during the affair. Or at least that is her excuse.
It starts by saying the this letter has been a work in progress for 6 months and that the journey has been painful. She then tells him that he was and still is a special person to her and that she doesn't want any regrets later so she is going to tell him how she feels. She then uses a line from Dr. Harley saying that she knows some people believe affairs are just fantasy, but she tells him what she had for him was real. She goes on to say that divorce is going to be hard for her but she is looking forward to a D-Date. She ends by asking him to keep this between them and to contact her if he needs anything. She then thanks him for "all of it"
I in no way believe this letter was written for her eyes only as she says. I was completely floored because I thought we were doing so well. To my knowledge the letter did not get sent, I discovered it as she was finishing typing.
Now I feel I am back to square one and DO NOT KNOW WHAT TO DO.
Specifically, do you currently have monitoring software on the computer she uses and on her cell phone?
Advice like that from a psychiatrist, if in fact that is true and accurate, may be construed as malpractice or at the minimum, unethical.
In the few States that still have Alienation Of Affection tort laws still on the books, outside parties who are key in a way to encourage the destruction of a previously existing stable marriage may also be added on as a defendant in that type of suit, along with further charges of Intentional Infliction Of Emotional Damages.
I say that not to instigate filing such a claim, but to point out that legally and ethically a person in such an influential position to guide your W's feelings could at least be realistically threatened with significant charges and financial repercussions.
Has your W previously been following the EP's that should have been agreed to?
And that's why they offer marriage coaching here at MB I suggest you use it, friend. What is she going to a psychiatrist for? Is she crazy? Me thinks she is using a psychiatrist as a means to not own up to her mistake BKA the affair. Classic insanity defense. Did you guys move from the area? How far does this POSOM stay from you? Are you following the program? EPs?
You're right to be devastated, and don't let her tell you otherwise. This was a cruel betrayal, all over again.
Your first priority, besides requiring that she ditch that sorry excuse for a psycho practitioner, should be to snoop, snoop, snoop, and find if anything else is going on. Once you know what you're dealing with, you can make a plan.
Bravo to your little girl! Little girls are MURDER on affairs! WE had one recent little girl who snatched her father's phone and would search through it to make sure he had not called the OW.
You could of told us this a long time ago!!
