Hello,
Three weeks ago I discovered my wife of three years had been having an affair for over a year. It began a few months after our first child was born. She swore it was over and that they had already broken it off. Two weeks later (one week ago) I discovered that in fact it was still ongoing. I also found much more information regarding the depth of the affair. They were deeply in love, were regularly intimate and went through great pains to see each other every day. She expressed to him that she wanted to leave me for him.

I confronted her again, and this time I demanded she choose between him or her family. She chose us, and swore again she has ended her affair. That was one week ago. We both admitted we had a role in what happened, apologized and agreed not to discuss any details of the affair. I made her promise to completely cut off all contact with her lover, and delete or discard any tokens of affection, videos, and digital images and she says she has.

Since then, there have been many changes in her mannerisms, attitude, and shows of affection towards me. She doesn't hide her phone anymore, and tells me wherever she's going. She hasn't worked since September, but has already gotten a new job and starts Monday. These all have made me feel very good about our progress and I am starting to regain trust in her.

Yesterday I asked if she would look at this site with me. I asked her read DR. Harley's background, and start reading the sections on Coping with Infidelity. That did not go well. She stopped after the 2nd letter and became very upset. The same letters that helped me greatly to understand how this happened and what paths to take were taken by her as a direct attack and criticism of what she had done. She says shes just not ready to start a recovery program yet. I immediately told her stop reading as I realized this was not doing anything to improve my "Love Bank" status with her. I had either attempted to start too soon or had her reading the wrong stuff.

I understand clearly that she is experiencing symptoms of guilt and withdrawal, which hopefully indicates that she has indeed cut off all contact with him. I am willing to give her more time to heal before we begin. In the meantime, trust is obviously a major issue for me. True or false, I do see her unwillingness to begin counseling as more evidence that she may not in fact have stopped seeing him, and while my trust in her has improved, it's still not high enough where I don't worry every minute when at work that she's going to run off and see him or set up a rendezvous when she goes out to the store for an hour. I'm not sure how to be certain that it's over, but considering they both are highly aware that I am watching very carefully, I've at least made it much more difficult.

All that being said, What I really want to know is how long should I wait to approach her again about counseling? When it does become time, what information on this site should I be showing her to "sell" this program in particular? I really like the concepts and the support options available at Marriage Builders, But I want buy in from her so I know she will put in real effort.

Please help, I really do want to save our marriage. Not just for my Daughter's sake, but for mine and hers as well.

EH

Welcome to MB, and I am sorry to read of these events in your marriage.

I'm also very sorry to say that this affair is continuing, and that it probably started before your child was born. You say it began after, so could you tell me what makes you think it did? Have you seen evidence about the beginnings of the affair - text messages that describe their first meeting, for example?

It is very worrying that she began the affair before you had been married for two years (by your own account), and soon after having a child. Was she at home full-time when that happened? How did she meet OM under those circumstances? Who is he - a neighbour, a work colleague, an old boyfriend? Since you describe their having had sex regularly and having seen each other every day, he must live within accessible distance to you. You will never recover under those conditions, and indeed, you should not even try. You need to move far away from him immediately if you are to stand a chance of recovering; you need to rent out your home if you own it, or give up the lease if you are renting. You need to do this yesterday. If you have read Dr Harley's articles as you say you have, you must have seen the advice to move away from home - and give up the job, if the affair was with a work colleague. You must have seen that he describes extraordinary precautions to prevent the affair continuing, and from what i can see in your post, not a single one of those EPs has been taken.

For example, you do not mention exposing the affair. Is this man married or with a girlfriend? Have you told that person? Have you told the workplace, if he is connected via work? Have you told supportive family members on both sides (yours and hers) and asked them for support in getting your wife to end the affair and rebuild the marriage? If your wife has not been held accountable to his wife and your families for what she has done, she will feel no compulsion to end contact with this man and not do it again.

The thing about women having affairs is that they do not usually hook up for sex, as the man in the same affair does. (Hooking up for sex does not stop the man from falling in love and pursuing your wife even when he knows you know about it, by the way.) Women usually do not take the step to have an affair until they are ready to fall in love with someone else - or possibly, were in love with the other man at an earlier time in their lives - where he was an old boyfriend or ex-husband. You saw yourself the messages that they sent showing their love for each other (although I am sceptical that OM felt as strongly as your wife did ; he said the things he knew she needed to hear to stay in the affair). You saw that she was "deeply in love". You must not believe that she could give this up just because you found out about it, and because she has given you her word.

Her letting you see her phone means nothing. If she is continuing the affair - which she is - she knows she needs to put you off guard. She has another means to communicate that you do not know about, and her going back to work will be the perfect place from which she can contact him and meet him. Your wife has a secret affair phone which she uses in the car - you need to bug this - and email accounts of which you are unaware. You need to put a keylogger on her devices and spyware on her phone. If she is deleting her messages and clearing her sent/received files frequently, you will not see evidence of her contact.

You are correct to see red flags in her unwilling to go to counselling - but whatever you do, do not go to traditional counselling. Do not talk her into this. Traditional counsellors will not know how to ensure permanent non-contact (NC) between her and OM, and will have no idea how to rebuild the marriage once that has been achieved. At worse they will encourage you to give your wife space, to trust her word, and to let her go back to work so that she can be unhappy, given that she will probably tell them that she is unhappy staying at home with your child.

In short: you need to

• Expose
  
• Spy -without letting her know of your suspicions in any way
  
• Move, this week
  
• Hold off on her going back to work. That is off the table now until you have moved, establised NC and begun recovery.
  
• If there is any chance that your wife is reading this thread you are in trouble, because she will stop your attempt to spy.

Come back and tell us what you know about this OM and we'll take it from there.

I don't know when they first met, but I recovered the entire text message log from her phone, including 70,000 between them. The first was sent two months after my daughter as born, and was basically an "exchange of numbers" text. I also have about 200 photos.

That's also right around the time my wife completely shut down to me emotionally. She had a bit of a breakdown right around then where she mostly expressed her unhappiness with me. I thought it was Post Partum Depression, so I didn't think much of it at the time other than to let her calm down, but now I know it was a cry for help of sorts.

She was working part time when it began. She met him through work, though they do not work together. He was a client. She did not quit work until well after the affair was off and running. To the best of my knowledge they did not know each other before the affair began.

I have not exposed the affair to anyone on either side, except for my wife and two of my personal friends. I am struggling with that, but I am coming to the realization that it needs to happen immediately.

I installed a GPS device in her car early this week. She has not yet lied once about where she is going since I caught her the second time. I also track her mileage, and it's been checking out. Though she admitted (before I installed it actually) that she's paranoid that I'm tracking her and secretly accessing her phone.

I plan on installing a keystroke logger immediately as well.

If she has a hidden phone, it's less than a week old. everything documenting the affair was on her primary phone. I will be on the lookout.

As for the OM, he is married with 3 kids, two from his current marriage. The oldest is 18, the other two are younger. I would guess the youngest is no older than 7. He's 42, has been married for 13 years and is clearly dissatisfied. I don't think this is his first affair. He really seems to "know the game". I have some evidence that he was cheated on in a past marriage, though that's tough to confirm from text conversation. I am fairly confident he lives with his wife and family, though I have evidence that he has other residences.

He's a police officer who works one town over from us, which made it very easy for them to get together, since he works day shift and she was often home.

The main reason it ended, if indeed it has, was because both I discovered the affair and because he expressed a clear unwillingness to leave his wife right now. I have evidence of that from text messages.

The new job she has accepted is in a different town away from where most of the rendezvous were occurring. At the very least they cannot reasonably meet while he's on duty. It's also much closer to my place of employment than my home or former job, so I'll be able to physically check up on her more easily if need be. I actually feel safer with her there than sitting at home.

Moving is unfortunately not an option right now, though I know it would help tremendously.

For what its worth, my wife has been more convincing in the last few days that she wants to try to reconcile, though I am leery of her sincerity. She has agreed to seek counseling from the very beginning. This morning after my initial post I told her I needed concrete evidence from her that she has had zero contact with OM. She said she would gather what she could and present it to me. She also apologized for not wanting to read further into counseling last night and offered to try again today. Should I entertain that, or should I hold off until we've addressed the other steps you've outlined?

I had planned to tell her that today we are telling the OM's wife. I wanted to wait until Friday evening to do that so I know where she is in the days following the exposure and prevent them from attempting to meet. We will be together with friends all weekend, and they'll have no chance see each other.

She likely won't read this. She only knows of this site from what I showed her and I'm using a handle that she would never suspect.

EH

EH, I would absolutely not tell her in advance. It is a strategic mistake to forewarn cheaters, because that gives them a chance to pre-empt you and spin the story. It also starts completely unnecessary fights that often results in a failed exposure.

I would pick up the phone today and inform the OM's wife of the affair and offer to send her all the evidence. I would follow up with a phone call or email to your family and friends about the affair, using the templates on my exposure thread.


Today will be ideal because you can also enlist the help of these friends.

Given all I've said, and you that you should have read on here by now, I hope you've firmly abandoned the idea of telling her that you intend to tell OMW. You do know, don't you, that if she suspects that this is coming, she will warn OM and he will keep his wife away from the phone or email? He we tell her, first, that a nut-job civilian on his beat fell in love with him, then she told her H, who, being an equal nut-job, is threatening all manner of stuff, and that his wife should ignore any communication about an affair, and tell him about it.

He might also answer emails on her behalf, saying that she knows all about the affair, she is rebuilding her marriage and she never wants to hear from you again. You need to speak to her directly on the phone, or write to her work email address (easily found on the Internet) - and DO NOT leave a message on a answering machine, where it can be wiped.

Don't let your wife know anything about your plans to expose, or to spy.

Since this man is a police officer and seems to have been doing this on the job (pun intended), you need to expose him to his line of command. It is completely unacceptable from the force's point of view for him to have been bonking on the job - under cover of the job - and exposure to them - and his wife - gives you a 100% chance of killing this affair.

I would avoid counseling because it is such a wild card. Most counselors don't understand infidelity and have no earthly idea how to save a marriage afterwards. They tend to give marriage wrecking advice such as giving the cheater "space" or asking the cheaters spouse to move out for a 'trial separation." They don't understand the FOG dynamic of cheating

WE can give you a step by step program to turn this around if you are willing. The program comes from Dr Bill Harley, clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders. The program really does work.

p..s when you expose the affair to the OM's wife, I would give her your wife's phone # so she can call her with any questions.

His employer should be informed of what he is doing on the job!

You need to expose the affair ASAP. Dday was just a week ago. There is NO WAY that the affair is over yet. Your WW saying she is sorry, promises of NC mean, and wanting to go to MC means nothing. Toss the MC too...that is a waste of time and can make matters even worse.

You need to contact the BW pronto...WITHOUT telling your WW...that would be foolish and a giant mistake. Give BW some of the texts and photos as evidence. You have soooo much that I would only give her some of the most damning ones for now so she doesn't get so overwhelmed that she misses big &^%#@s that OM can not explain away....like a text that says he is going to leave her for WW. You can give her more later but I wouldn't give her 70,000 texts yet.

Your WW is still wayward. Do not speak to her about MB. You are trying to educate a drunk.

Welcome to MB.

OK. I had a discussion with her over the weekend that I was struggling with the idea of not telling his wife. She didn't try hard to stop me, but didn't encourage it either. She said she was afraid of further contact by him, either to her or to me. I said that I wasn't afraid of him, but that for now I wouldn't. If she is in contact with him, then she may have warned him already as a contingency plan, but I have photos that prove I'm not lying which I can include in any correspondence.

I will take your advice and contact her and his employer without my wife's knowledge. My main fear is that it will draw them to reconnect, but this will probably be a moot point since I'll have destroyed his life anyway.

She may also decide to leave and take the baby, though she can't really go anywhere but back home to her parents 2 hours away. I fear being apart from my daughter the most right now.

As for her comment regarding counseling, she meant she was willing to revisit looking at this site specifically, not another service or site.

Eddie, you are better off blowing up the affair and dealing with the drama now. Waiting or dragging out exposure is ALWAYS a bad move...ALWAYS. Exposure isn't ever pretty but it is necessary or you will have ZERO chance of recovering your marriage. If you don't kill this affair this POS will never go away and can even come around your child. Do you want that POS around your daughter?


Don't let fear guide you. Even if she did leave and take the baby, it would be temporary. She could leave anytime whether you expose or not. Exposure will give you the support you (and even WW) need.

Agreed. It will be done. Tonight when I get home from work. This way I'll know where my daughter and wife are when it happens.

This is good to hear. Please do this TODAY and go read through the exposure thread linked in my signature.

If his life is "destroyed" it won't be because of you, but because of his own unprofessional, immoral behavior.


Don't worry. She will be back soon. And you will have to inform her parents of the affair too.


Thanks for the clarification.

You will find it very difficult to expose the affair from home with her there. Can you expose today from another location?

What about obtaining a restraining order of some kind? Is it even possible? He is a police officer, so to say I'm not concerned about retaliation would be a lie.

You should expose to parents, siblings and any influential targets. If WW goes to her parents, they should know why she is on their doorstep. WW shouldn't be given the opportunity to spin some lame story about why she is there...including you kicked her out, are crazy etc. Even if she doesn't leave, if her parents and siblings (?) are decent people, they should want to shake some sense into her...especially since you have a child with her. They should know who POSOM is so that this loser will not be welcomed either.

This is why it is so important for you to expose to his personnel department TODAY. They will likely pull him off the beat and put him on a desk job or suspend him. If he DARED retaliate, you could take out a restraining order, which would likely wreck his career. He would be crazy to trifle with you.

What do you mean? If you expose him to his employers and they discipline him, do you think he's going to go to your home and beat you up? Do you seriously think he would risk doing that?

I don't know. likely not, but I can't help but fear the worst. I'm trying to cover all my bases before going down this road.

I would not worry about this. That he is law enforcement also has it's benefit. If he does anything to harass you or act crazy, he is only going to bury himself even more. Once you expose, eyes will be on him. You can request a RO later if he pulls anything but he would have to pull something to give you reason to apply for one.

Most OM are complete weenies...even law enforcement officers.

Ok, thank you all for your support reinforcement. I am primarily concerned because he knows where I live and I cannot move immediately. But I agree, it's time to expose

You will have an impossible task exposing from home when your wife is there. It needs to be done away from the home in a complete, comprehensive manner. Do them all today so it hits them like a tsunami.

Does the OM have a Facebook account? Have you read through the exposure instructions in my exposure thread?

Agree with Mel about exposing from home. I exposed to BH1 from a Burger King parking lot on my lunch break!!! I exposed to BH2 while my WH was driving to work. Exposure to all family and friends was done by phone calls (no one lived close by for a face to face) away from WH. BOOM, BOOM, BOOM!! Was shock and awe!! Both affairs nuked and died.

I did it from work. If you're at work now, do it from there. Take our word for it: if you go home, you won't be able to do it for the whole weekend.

And WW will use tears, anger and/or threats to get you to stop. Don't sign up for that.

I agree with the others, expose while you're at work.

Have you had DNA Testing done on your child?

I went to his employer (the police department) and spoke with internal affairs. it didn't go very far, they didn't seem like there was much they could do, but they were going to investigate and get back to me. I don't expect much to happen there.

I was unable to find a cell phone number for OMW, but I sent email and facebook private messages to her. I have yet to hear back about anything from her, him, or any reaction from my wife. I know these messages can potentially be intercepted by OM, but it was the best I can do. I did not tell my wife anything, for fear that she would tell him and allow him to intercept.

Now I'm kind of in a holding pattern. I was hoping this would be liberating, but its not, since I have no idea if my message has reached its destination or if I spoke to anyone who would actually help. Do I just sit and wait for the the police to do something or his wife to finally log on or check email?

Good job!! Please get your exposures finished and drive this home. I would not stop until you are in touch with the wife.

I think you will be very surprised at the outcome of the exposure to the Police Department, though. WE had a betrayed wife of a cheating policeman report her husband. They acted like it was a big nothing to HER, but it turned out to be a major investigation and I believe he was suspended. So don't let their tepid response disappoint you.


Go back and find her mother, dad and/or sisters and send them a Facebook private message. Tell them that JoeCreep is having an affair with your wife and you need to get in touch with MRs Creep to give her the facts. Sign your full name and give your cell phone.


You should complete your exposures. Expose to the OM's Facebook contacts, all of your family and friends. I would go RIGHT NOW AND COPY AND PASTE ALL THE OM'S FACEBOOK CONTACTS INTO A TEXT DOC FOR SAFEKEEPING. He will be shutting down his face book page as soon as he finds out you have PM'd his wife.

I would also suggest you expose him on cheaterville if you can get ahold of a photo. That is very effective exposure because his name will show up when googled, AND you can send endless emails anonymously with the cheaterville link.

It worked!!!! Just as you all said. The exposure has crippled the affair. OM'S employer and OW have both confronted him, and now he's in a world of hurt. He'll never have time for WW now. He has been in contact with WW to inform her of what I did, but my suspicions that they had seen each other earlier yesterday were true, so that doesn't really change things. I am disappointed that his children and OW will be hurt, but that is not my fault.

WW was angry, as expected, and we did argue a bit. I tried to remain level headed. She had the audacity of blaming me for causing hurt to his family by going to his Police Department and Wife. She claimed that was the only thing she asked that I not do. I said that I didn't cause any of this. She and he had caused all of this pain. The only reason I exposed the affair was because she wouldn't honor the only request I had made of her when I initially found out. I asked for her complete and utter separation from him, and she didn't do it. They left me with no choice. I was not going to allow OM's presence to destroy my family, even if it destroyed his. I told WW that she could leave me if she wanted, but I would never allow her to leave me for OM. She doesn't get that option.

Within a few minutes we had decided to table the argument, and actually have just been going about our day as we have been the last three weeks. I'm a bit shocked at that, actually. It was far less emotionally taxing than I expected. I think deep down she knew this had to happen, but I know she never thought I'd have the strength to do it.


She said to "forget about counseling right now", which I learned from all of you yesterday was a bad idea anyway, so that's not even on my mind.

That being said, what do I do now? I plan to continue spying on her to ensure communication has stopped. Aside from that, Do I just continue to try and make her happy and feel loved while improving on the things she had outlined as needs which I wasn't providing? I know she'll be in withdrawal for a while, but is there anything specific I should do to begin to endear her to me again?

I don't want to smother her, but I don't want to abandon her either. She is reluctant to confide in anyone because it requires an admission of guilt. I don't want her talking to a therapist because I'm afraid they will tell her to seek counseling. She will certainly not want talk to me about her love for another man, nor do I want to hear it. I've got my own healing to do.

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Finally this has been without a doubt the most empowering experience of my life. I thank you all for the support and encouragement to see this first step through.

EH

Good job.

How do you know OMBW and employer confronted him? Did you actually talk to OMBW?

Do you have the book SAA?

First off, good job!!! You have taken a very brave first step towards saving your marriage. But you CANNOT STOP now. You must finish your exposures and it needs to be done NOW. You have the affair on the ropes, so don't let up while you have it in a free fall or it will rise from the dead.

EXPOSE the affair to your family and friends using the talking points on my thread. CALL her parents and email your other family and friends.

Send Facebook messages to the OM's family using the instructions on my thread.

Do not think for a minute that you have killed the affair by exposing to TWO people. That is a trickle exposure which leaves them much opportunity to maneuver around. You NEED the whole family to support your marriage.

Get this done NOW so you can move onto next steps, which would be restoring the love in your marriage. Grab your laptop or iPad and make an excuse to leave the house and go to a coffee shop or your office and GET THIS DONE NOW.

Once you finish your exposures, you will need to address this checklist with your wife - it is out of the book Surviving an Affair, which you do need to get asap:

From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.

These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.


Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.

You HELPED protect them from this harmful affair. Now the OM's wife can take steps to protect herself and her children from your wife and her husband. You did a good deed to this family!

Absolutely. You would have wanted her to tell you.

Now you can both tag team the affair. She watches her end, you watch yours.

Secrecy to avoid hurting people is patronising and wrong. We all need to know when we are being defrauded.

OK, I will move forward with the exposure to our families. If after this, she refuses to comply with the items on the checklist what do I do? I can't kick her out of the house unless she leaves willingly, nor do I want that. We have a 15 month old who needs us both. She already feels like she has nowhere to go, and once she's exposed to both of our families, she'll feel like I am seeking vengeance.

Also what do I do if she does leave and takes our child? I see almost no chance of that happening, but it is possible. Of course, I am able to track her, so I'll know where she is.

I want to be prepared for her to not comply and have a response or plan ready. I'm almost positive that she will fight it. Hopefully I'm wrong.

EH

I know because my wife told me that OM contacted her and said I destroyed his family and career by going to his employer and his wife. My wife confronted me about it without my asking and described with complete accuracy the methods by which I exposed them. There was no way she could have found out any other way, because I was not at home when I exposed them.

EH,

You wrote, I destroyed his family and career by going to his employer and his wife.

No the OM betrayed his family and the consequence is alienation from them, the OM betrayed his mandate to protect and serve the community by attacking a member of the communities family.

He also likely took an oath not to engage in illegal or immoral activities when he became an officer. If the affair was conducted during work hours he also stole from the public.

Yes the OM should not be promoted he is not an exemplary police officer.

God Bless
Gamma

Do you know what to say to your families and friends? Are you reading my exposure thread?

After you expose, she will be furious. Just expect this. Tell her you love her and want to have a happy marriage with her, but this is what it will take: show her the list. She will tell you to go to hell at first. You just keep being kind and tell her she has to end her affair.


Do nothing. She will be right back. She may even try to throw you out. Just tell her no thanks. Expect lots of drama.

EH, it is critical that you get these exposures done NOW. The more you trickle this out, the less effective it will be. ASK HER FAMILY TO USE THEIR INFLUENCE TO PERSUADE HER TO END HER AFFAIR.

AND, you need to send Facebook private messages to the OM's family and friends. I am getting very worried you are not listening to us. The window of opportunity is closing as we speak.

And no, we will not tell you to kick her out. Don't worry about that. But on the same token, you should NOT LEAVE if she tries to kick you out.

Please read this. Men, Don't Leave your Home!

Exposure complete. It took a few days to get to everyone. as expected she is furious, but she did not leave. she will not comply with any of the stipulations on the checklist. She says she will not be controlled, and would rather make plans to leave than do otherwise. She says she will "make an effort" to not see or speak to him again, but that my making demands pushes her away and exposing this has only driven him to contact her more than he was in the last few weeks. She indicated that she had really been making a strong effort to avoid contact with him over the last week before I exposed them, and had all but closed the door, but all of this has re-opened it. She understands that it can never work between them, and she can end it but she needs to end it her way, not mine. For her, total complete and immediate is not the way. She was deeply in love with OM, I know that, and she feels that I am trying to take away her right to be happy (with him or otherwise) so I can create the "image" of a happy family. I am not. I felt cornered and desperate and was trying to salvage an opportunity for us to try to be happy.

I'm not sure what I did that was so terrible and caused her to be so unhappy and stray instead of discuss this with me. I admit I wasn't the most doting husband. I worked a lot towards the end of her pregnancy and shortly thereafter because I knew we'd have less income for a while. I was under stress and pressure being a new and first time father, and I admit I neglected some of her emotional needs. I didn't take care of myself physically as well as I should have and gained weight. I tried to lose it, but her complete shut down to me affectionately made it nearly impossible for me to focus. She had found a replacement for me just two months after our daughter was born, and though I didn't know that at the time, I certainly felt the effects of abandonment. At any rate, I've changed all that in the last month to try and restore the person whom she fell in love with, physically, mentally and emotionally. Physically is the easy part. It's the mental and emotional aspects that I am struggling with.


So, what do I do now? wait and let her recover and decide what to do. I'll be honest, all this spying on her is starting to wear on me greatly, and I'm not sure how productive it is for my own recovery. The only thing it ever reveals are times when she is definitely or likely seeing him. It never really proves to me that she isn't.


EH

I'm glad to hear that the exposures are complete. This is progress, although it might not feel like that to you. I can't remember if you have spoken to OMW. I will read back through the thread in a minute.

Meanwhile - what is your spying revealing? Is she still seeing OM? Where, and under what circumstances? Does she tell you that she is going out with friends?

If you are recoding telephone conversations: do they appear to be fighting, or to be consoling each other?

I don't see any evidence that you have reached OMW - except the policeman OM telling your wife that you ruined his life and career. That is not enough to go on. You need to speak to his wife directly. Did you give her a means of contacting you when you went through Facebook?

Also, you make no mention of your wife's parents and siblings. What have you told them, and what was their reaction?

Is your wife on any medication for her post-natal depression?

Spying reveals to you that your job is not complete. Since you have not spoken tot the OM's wife, he probably denied the affair. This is why you must contact her directly and give her all your evidence. Did you expose to the Om's Facebook contacts? To his family? His friends?

You should keep this up until you have killed the affair. EVERY TIME the OM contacts your wife, you should contact his wife directly and give her the communication. You should also pay him a call and tell him to leave your family alone. If this guy is still contacting your wife after all this, then he is amazingly cocky.

I get the sense you are pencil whipping this exercise and that will result in a failed effort.

yes, I have spoken with OMW directly to confirm receipt of the exposure. she has expressed a desire to not speak to me again, and I will honor that. she knows how to reach me if she wants to.

I have contacted as many family members of OM and OMW as I could find via FB and email. I don't read any responses anymore as some are quite hurtful.

At any rate, I am confident the exposure has been carried out to the best of my ability.

No, she was never on any anti-depressants. She passed all those tests. I have a hard time believing she wasnt, and still isnt, suffering from some sort of depression, but she is very good at suppressing that. Telling her to see a doctor now will have the opposite effect, so I can' do that.

She knows she has done wrong, and to her credit she had over the last few weeks been making an real effort to be more affectionate and family-oriented at least help me cope. I told her I did notice and very much appreciate those efforts, but by far her ending this affair was more important.

What did she say to you? Did she believe your story? Were you able to give her the evidence?


Were you able to reach his parents? And if so, did they respond?


Have her parents and other family members contacted her and asked her to end her affair?

And is the OM coming into your house while you are at work?

You can tell her she needs to make a doctor appt to be tested for STDs. You both should be tested. If POSOM is a serial cheat as you said, then the risk of an STD is even higher. There are very few things a BS can put to rest in his mind early on after Dday...this is one of them. Please get testing scheduled for you and WW ASAP...one less thing to worry about and it will provide an "in" for the doctor to speak to her about anti-depressants. You should get a hard copy of the results sent to you.

This is BS gaslighting. I hope you don't believe this.


Sorry but she is still in love with him. That did not evaporate overnight.


Did you tell WW this ^^^

Yes, I told WW that I exposed them not for vengeance, but because I felt my marriage and my relationship with my daughter was threatened and I was not going to allow that to happen.

UPDATE: WW came to me just a few minutes ago, without my approaching her, and has agreed to comply with the requests on the Exposure checklist!!!

I did not think this would happen so quickly. Not nearly out of the woods yet, but I'm feeling much more confident than I was a day ago.

Once again, thank you all for you continued support to see this through. I will work on getting these things done and continue to move forward.

Be cautious! If it is true, then great news.
Things don't typically move that fast, i would be wary of her trying to get you off her back.

Actions, not words by her. She has to prove it!

Many a betrayed have fallen for the gaslighting.

Great! Lets test her sincerity by asking her to send a no contact letter.

here


[from SAA, pg 58]

OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely, XXXXX

Did she write the NC letter?

I need some advice regarding how I can effectively cope with the knowledge of my Wife's affair. We are still in the early Exposure stages. I have exposed the affair, and as of yesterday My WW and I are completing the Exposure checklist. We are attempting to move forward, and I know we have a long way to go with that. That portion of our recovery is being delt with in a separate post.

What I need now is some advice for dealing with my thoughts. I first learned of the affair a month ago, but exposure didn't happen until this past weekend. It took me several weeks to gather all the necessary information.

Unfortunately, through my investigation of the affair I learned many intimate details. While I realize it was necessary for me to learn everything so I could effectively squash the affair, I am still left with very intimate knowledge of their relationship on which I would prefer not to dwell any longer.

I recovered more than a full year's worth of text messages, and therein read many things. The depth of their love, her willingness to leave me at the drop of a hat as soon as OM was ready to leave OMW, and some very hurtful and horrible things WW said to OM about me. There were even things that were said after I learned of the affair, but before I exposed it. Things WW said which showed no remorse for my suffering and attempts to cope and understand, as well as my lack of capability as a husband and father. I have seen pictures of them together (kissing, but otherwise non-sexual), and though I never caught or saw pictures of them in the act of intimacy, I read text messages that describe the frequency of explicitness of their sex life all too graphically. There are also images of OM with my very young daughter, who is now 15 months, but was as young as 4 months in some photos. These images positively infuriate me. I would never harm my wife physically, even after all this, but nonetheless I do at times hate her for what she has done.

So, how do I get rid of these thoughts? They haunt me regularly. I exercise several hours a day to try and reduce stress. I am sleeping fairly well again, but my appetite is still spotty. I often have to force myself to eat. I need to put behind me what has happened so I can focus on my daughter, rebuilding my marriage, and keeping my job.

I will not be able to begin a healing process until I can put these images and thoughts to rest.

How do I begin to do that?
EH

yes. she wrote it, I approved it, and it was sent. She has also agreed to change her phone number and stay out of the areas in which he works, lives, and where they used to regularly meet. She is also giving me a full schedule of her day.

This may very well still be gaslighting, as some of you suggest, but it's all I have to go on right now.

Hopefully we are finally moving forward for real.

You may need to move.

Threads merged. Please stick to one thread in future.

Do you have the book SAA?

Also when you build a new loving MB marriage you will create new memories. I know you don't want to hear this, but it will take time.

Please listen to the clips in here Dr. Harley on How to Deal With Triggers

Also do you have spyware on her devices to verify that she's remaining in NC?

Have you read about Just Compensation?

There is no magic way for the thoughts to disappear, Eddie. Like Brain said it will simply take time for the sting and anger to lessen. If your WW doesn't make Just Compensation to you and build a new and improved better marriage with you then there won't be any good thoughts to replace the horrible ones you are now struggling with.

Sorry but it is going to take time. Dday is very recent. You may want to ask your doctor about anti-depressants if you are feeling too depressed or anxious. Exercise does help.

ETA: If you need to take some time off from work then take the time off. Many people have even expose affairs to their bosses so they understand what is going on. The vast majority of people are supportive and understanding.

x 2

I know you say the expose is done. But if there are any exposure targets left, the longer you put that off the longer it will take for any real healing to begin. And you need to be sure the targets have been exposed to properly.

What has your family's response been?

Recovery is a two to five year process. As already mentioned moving far away helps recovery. Many cases moving is required.

You have this backwards. As you heal, you will be able to put those thoughts behind you. It is like being raped, you don't just put the trauma out of mind with a snap of your fingers. For you, the solution is very precise: a) time and b) recovery of your marriage. If you will go through this program diligently and affair proof your marriage and create a romantic, passionate marriage, those thoughts will fade away. If you are happy in the present, your mind does not tend to go to the past.

If you don't go through this program [the one described in Surviving an Affair] your resentment will GROW and fester year after year. But this does not have to be your fate.

Here are some good clips about just compensation.

What is Just Compensation?

EddieHead,

Get a polygraph for your WW to make sure you have the full truth and don't end up learning new details 5 10 or 20 years from now.

Get a DNA test for your child to put that monster of an issue to bed.

If you can get OM fired he may have to move to get another job.

God Bless
Gamma

I dont need one. GPS on her car confirms she saw him for 5 minutes today in a forest preserve parking lot on the way to work. there is no other reason for her to have been there.

what do I do. confront her? expose again? tail her and get photo evidence?

I'm tired of all the lies

Whatever you do, don't give up your spying resource. Even if that means following her to work, and then confronting both of them. I am sorry you are going through this. I feel for you.

Don't say anything. Hire a PI to quietly tail her.

Ask her if she has anything to tell you or if there has been contact? If she says nothing to report, keep watching, if she acts guilty then she is probably guilty.

I would get more evidence first, maybe she just stopped there to think or have a smoke or a good cry.
Before you confront again, you need solid proof.

For her to quit cold turkey is hard to do, especially the way you described her leading up to her agreeing to all EP.

should i go back to his employer (the police) with new evidence, or will that just get back to OM and drive this further underground

Contact the POSOM's Betrayed Wife directly.

Let her know that they are still meeting each other behind your backs.

Don't cower to an emotionally baseless request to not contact her further. The poor hurt woman needs to know her WH is still sneaking around on her.

Also, recontact this POSOM's investigation unit again and let them know that he has been still meeting your wife and when. He may have been on duty when he was carrying on this current affair contact.

Have you reached EVERY one of His and your Wife's family members and friends of influence?

Don't leave any stone unturned. This is War against your family.

LTL

Have you exposed to your and WW's families or not? You have avoided answering this question. Did you properly expose to EVERYONE or not? Exposure to OM's work and BW is NOT enough. Please answer.

Ok, so to summarize

1. contact OMW and employer with new evidence, even though it is technically circumstantial

2. do not confront wife without solid proof, but ask her if there has been any contact to gauge reaction

3. continue to search for and expose to acquaintances and relatives

4. continue to monitor and attempt to acquire solid proof

I presume the exposure checklist is pointless now until she stops seeing him, and that following through with any of the remaining items is worthless.

It will be difficult to not confront her. I'll have to become a better liar than she is.

to be honest, I'm not even sure if this is worth saving anymore. If it wasn't for the fact that I do occasionally believe that I see true remorse in her eyes, I wouldn't be doing this.

Of course, that could just be an act as well, though turning on the tears has never been a skill of hers.

EH

You have this backwards and it is clear to me that you have NOT exposed like you have been advised repeatedly. You expose so she won't be able to see him without risking further anger, disappointment and disgust from the families. Without PROPER exposure then everything else is worthless...you will be spinning your wheels. You should expose regardless of Recovery of Divorce so this jerk can't be around your child like he was only a friend.

If you refuse to expose, then save your $ for the PI and use it on a divorce attorney.

Don't give away your spying intel source.

Just say that you are giving her an opportunity to be open and honest.

You just reply, after she either denies anything or asks you how and what do you think you know, that you are completely willing to create a much better marriage for both of you if her affair is over.

Are you SURE she met him?

Is that forest preserve on her regular route to work, or did she have to go out of her way to stop there?

LTL

And no, you don't need more proof. You have plenty. Your problem is you are afraid to expose to the families.

70k texts and 200 photos is a MOUNTAIN of evidence. You do not need a PI.

What on earth would confronting her achieve?

Would you confront the town drunk or simply take the bottle away?

Exposure is the first step in order to ruin the affair.

Of course she won't stop seeing him before exposure! She still has privacy!

Yes tell OMW contact continues, and investigation unit. Do not reveal your sources.

Will you be hiring a PI if you think you need more evidence?

But you have plenty of evidence. Why do you think you don't have enough?

How did they contact each other to set up this meeting? You said in an earlier post that you have spyware on everything she owns. Therefore, either she has a secret phone that you have not yet discovered, or, if she is back at work, she is contacting him via work.

What, exactly, do you have spyware on?

There is no point asking questions such as "do you have anything to tell me". She is not going to confess to the meeting simply because you ask this, and since she has been lying to you throughout this lengthy affair, she is accomplished at that and will not "act guilty", either. All you will do by questioning her soon after she met her boyfriend is make her worry that you have found something out, and make her wonder what your source could be. All you'd be doing is tipping her off that you are on to her. Please do not do this.

The reason for hiring a PI is that her stopping at a park is not evidence of the kind that would convince a jury that she met him - and that is what you need, if you are either to tell his wife or report him to his police employers, and also if you feel that you have had enough of this and want to leave.

I'm not recommending leaving, because you have a young child to protect, but the point I'm making is that you cannot take any game-changing actions on the basis of that GPS. It is not enough. if it had shown her going to his police station or the street where he lives, that would be more convincing, but a park is not convincing evidence of anything. All she has to say is that she stopped for a breath of fresh air, and you would not be able to prove her wrong.

Yes, you have more than enough evidence from the mountain of text messages that there was an affair until recently, but you have accepted that the affair happened, and you have stayed with your wife despite it, and have been working on the basis that that is over. For you to act on the basis that you were wrong and the affair is still on, you need evidence from today - not text messages from the past year.

Of course, you and all of us on this forum know that she is continuing the affair. Several of us told you that she would when you first came here, so this is no surprise to us. But the GPS data is not proper evidence and you cannot take any action on the basis of it. She has a hidden means of contacting this man, and she has probably done so more than you realise during the past week. Save yourself a lot of hassle and take MelodyLane's advice: hire a PI and get the evidence you need within two days. This is no time for trying to call her bluff. She has a great poker face, as you well know now.

Make plans to move away, now. You can surely see why we said this right away; if you stay where you live now, your wife will meet him whenever she can, because she is addicted to him. She needs to give up work and move away with you, and if she does not agree to do this, I don't have any hope that you will break this affair.

EH,

I think the reason the OMW does not want you to contact her is that the OMW was the OW who broke up OMs first marriage.

OMs first wife may be able to give you valuable intel.

Is there an internal affairs division in OMs police department, you may want to bring this issue before the town council. Frankly put up posters detailing his activities to

God Bless
Gamma

Here Private Investigators

I think many of us are confused.
You said you exposed far and wide to family, OM family, OM work, friends. True or not?
Who did you NOT expose to?

She agreed to extraordinary precautions list (not exposure list)? Has she implemented them all? True or not? (all email, passwords, social media, phone numbers changed or turned off, and the rest of the list)

You said you sent the no contact letter she wrote and showed you. True or not?

Remember actions!
I warned you about her giving you lip service to get you to back off. If she is not acting depressed and/or angry then I would suspect full contact is still going on.

I would keep snooping and Plan A. You need to project a confident and no attitude disposition. Don't get angry.

If she refuses to act then you have a choice, either keep plan A or move to plan B.

How are things going EH?

Have you found out anything else on your own, or is your WW still gaslighting you?

LTL

I laid off of here for a bit so I could re-focus. I had become ultra paranoid (rightfully so) and needed to get a grip on myself so I could more accurately assess the situation. Since my last post my snooping has not revealed any evidence that they are in contact any longer. I've searched high and low for a burner phone but have found none. There is no evidence in email, phone or computing device that they have been in contact since the day of the exposure. I know there's no way to be 100% certain, but I have been on her like a hawk nights and weekends and track her every move when she is driving. I may have been wrong that she saw him en route to work on 2/5 as I initially posted. I can't be sure of that, though If contact did happen, it was 5 minutes at most. She has taken that exact route to work every day since, and not stopped at the spot I had suspected contact. According to GPS, she is going only where she says she is going. I also have a local police officer friend and neighbors watching my home when she is there and I am not.

She's been incredibly depressed for the last three weeks. I catch her crying now and then, especially at night, though she tries hard to hide it. She was previously very dedicated to exercise and health. She stopped exercising almost completely and is not eating much. I am trying to help her with that. I certainly don't want her to come to physical harm.

She's broken down to me several times and has told me OM bailed on her when I exposed and she believes I now intend to blind side her with a divorce and take our child. She has nowhere to go and almost no money without me, even with the new job, and that has her very worried. She knows I don't believe her yet, but she doesn't know how to prove that she's not seeing him because she has no way of producing evidence that she's not. I told her she doesn't have to worry about being blind sided as long as she never sees or speaks to him again, and left it at that.

She's hasn't gotten through the whole list yet, but she is giving me full disclosure of her destinations, which GPS has confirmed 100%. I have full access to her phone, email and social media and have found nothing. She is avoiding the areas and people I have asked her to avoid. She is making an effort to spend more time with me and swears she wants to attempt to rebuild, though she doesn't know if it's possible after all she's done to me.

She has made no requests to go out alone with friends or make strange random trips for no apparent reason. She says she understands that she can't do any of that until my trust in her is restored.

I am not completely convinced, and may never be. There will always be a way for them to contact one another without my knowing, and I can't prevent that. However, I am starting to believe her, based on her change in behavior and attitude compared to when I first caught her and prior to exposure. That being said, I don't intend on suspending my snooping.

I suppose all I can do now is continue to monitor, ask her to complete the list, and help her recover from her depression. I'm trying to show her that I still love her and do not intend to leave her. I make an effort to hug and kiss her every day and to compliment her whenever possible, and she does the same when she sees I am suffering. I don't know how much good it's doing her, but I can't imagine abandoning her to her depression would be a better course of action.

EH

Hi Eddie, thanks for the update. It certainly sounds like things are moving in the right direction. A couple of observations. Has she changed her contact information so the OM CAN'T reach her even if he wanted to? Do you have spyware on her phone so you can see every thing she does?

The above comment concerns me greatly because the logic is backwards. You should not trust her *IF* she goes out alone with friends or makes strange, random trips for no apparent reason. That is not how people in solid, romantic, integrated marriages behave. That is untrustworthy behavior. Do you see what I mean?

If she wants to earn your trust, she shouldn't do any of that.


She is away from you on nights and weekends? Why is that?

In order to recover your marriage is it CRITICAL that you and your wife create an integrated, romantic marriage using these concepts. If you don't, you will end up in a crippled version of the pre affair marriage and will be more vulnerable to an affair. The most important step in creating romantic love is scheduling 20-25 hours per week of undivided attention time [4 - 4 hour dates] meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs.

If you don't do that, I predict you will be back here in 2-3 years to tell us about another affair.

Did you expose beyond the OM's work and BW? Do your families know of the affair?

to clarify:

We spend more than 20-25 hours together a week. We are never apart on nights and weekends. We haven't been apart at all except for when I or she is at work. It has been that way since I first found out over a month ago, save for one night early on. I discovered she was out with him that night and confronted her when she got home. That was a week before I exposed, as I was still in the information gathering stage. Since that night she hasn't asked to go anywhere or do anything without me aside from normal daily tasks when I am at work, and GPS has confirmed every time that she always goes where she says shes going. If her plans at change at all during the day, she tells me.

Where do you go on your dates?

yes. full exposure to all of OM and OMW facebook friends and all of my and her friends and family, plus OM employer. some of OM friends and family already knew of it. I believe full exposure is why she's paranoid I'm going to blind side her with divorce. She's convinced I did it out of vengeance. She was initially furious, as expected, because we had at one point discussed and agreed not to tell people. That was before I caught her seeing him for the third time after i found out.

Her anger didn't last as long as I expected. I think maybe she toned down her anger quickly with the intention to get me to back off so she could attempt to see him again, but with everyone knowing I think she may have found it was more work that it was worth, and she now had no option but to try and work things out. At least that's my best guess.

Since then she's been depressed and doesn't trust that I have true intentions to save this marriage.

OM and OMW want nothing to do with me as a result. Fine with me.

Most people are avoiding us right now. Some are supportive, some aren't, and some think I've gone mad with jealously. my closest friends and family are contacting me regularly to see how I'm doing. My family in general is angry but backs me 100% in my desire to attempt to rebuild. They have promised not to abandon us and work towards forgiveness. In time, I hope that happens. Her family seems sympathetic but very much embarrassed and concerned for the fuutre their daughter and granddaughter. They are not people who often share their emotions, so they are difficult to guage. I do think they understand that telling them was the right thing to do on the road to recovery.

Glad to read that you exposed to all. Given that OM lives in the next town over, I recommend you put a keylogger on her phone/computer if you haven't already done so. Has she changed her phone # and email?

yes to all except keylogger on phone. I'm still trying to figure out how to get access to it long enough to install one without her knowing. she permits me to see it whenever I ask, but I know that really doesn't mean much because all correspondence can be deleted by her.

Eddie,

Did you take it further up the chain of command in the police force or try to bring political pressure from the city council? It would help if you were able to force OM to move away.

Did you get a polygraph for your WW or DNA testing?

God Bless
Gamma

So she's changed all her contact information, correct?

Did she write a NC letter?

Yes to both. But to be perfectly honest, items on the exposure list do very little to convince me that they cannot contact one another if they really want to. I know that they can reach each other in a number of ways without my knowing. That will always be the case. Yes I have made it far more difficult, but I'll never be able to make it impossible.

To be honest, I'm growing weary of all this snooping and paranoia. I'm not going to stop, but it's starting to consume my life. It will never provide me with sufficient evidence that the affair is over. The only thing it may one day reveal is that the affair is still ongoing after all the great lengths I've gone to end it. I can't live like this for the rest of my life. Moving would have helped, but it's not an option. In order to be confident they could never meet, I'd have to move far away. I'm not taking my daughter away from her extended family. They are a very active part of our lives, and she needs them. My daughter doesn't deserve that, my family doesn't deserve that and I don't deserve that.

I need to focus on my daughter, my job, and trying to rebuild this marriage, but I can't focus on anything except where my wife is going and what she's doing, especially when I'm at work or home watching the baby while she's at work or running an errand. I don't want to be in a relationship where I have to track my spouse for the rest of our lives. That is not healthy and does not build trust. At some point I have to accept that the affair is over, but to do that I'll have to rely on the word and actions of someone I cannot trust, instead of hard evidence.

In the meantime, I don't know where to go next. WW says she loves me, but is not in love me right now. She does not want me right now. She doesn't trust me right now. We do have times of happiness together, but there is almost no physical affection coming my way. At best, I'll get a hug or kiss on the cheek when she can sense that I'm upset. I have gone without real love for almost a year and a half now, so you'd think I'd be used to it, but for whatever reason it's harder to deal with now. Maybe that's because I've abandoned all the things I was using to fill that void. Maybe I was hoping this would affect change. It has in that she is spending more time with me, but not to the degree that I'd hoped. I still feel that she is staying because she has to, not because she wants to, and is just "making the best of it".

For my part, I feel I'm doing everything I can. I'm reading the book "Surviving an Affair", as recommended. I make a point to compliment her, tell her I love her, and show her physical affection every day, though it is rarely reciprocated. I bend over backwards to make her feel wanted and important. I do whatever she asks of me. I am making a real effort to show an interest in her favorite things, and to talk to her about things she wants to talk about. I am taking her places she wants to go and I have addressed every single one of the issues she identified about me that led her to stray. I started addressing all of these issues as soon as I first found out of the affair over a month ago.

She wasn't attracted to me: I've lost 25 lbs in the last 5 weeks through diet and exercise, and I haven't stopped. I'm almost back to my wedding weight, and am in far better shape than when we first met.

I was working too much: I've gone to my employer and told them flat out that I am no longer working nights and weekends. I am also working from home two days a week so I can be more available to my family. They know my situation and have said I can do whatever it takes.

I wasn't spending enough time with my daughter: I whole-heartedly disagree on this one. I am a good, loving and dedicated father, but I still obliged. I now stay home with her two days a week. I am with her, my wife, or both every moment of every day that I am not at work.

My hobbies were taking up too much of my time: I have willingly abandoned every one of them. I do not miss them one bit. All I care about is my family.

So now I feel it's her turn. I need her to start loving me again. and I don't mean things like housekeeping and buying me gifts. I mean real, meaningful shows of affection. I need her to say she loves me, and to have it be unsolicited. I need her to kiss me and touch me and have it feel real. I need her to show interest in being with me. I need her to show a real desire to rebuild this relationship. We discussed this, and she says she doesn't want to show me affection that isn't real to make me believe things are getting better. I respect that honesty, but that doesn't change the fact that I am working very hard for no realizable results.

Each day that my efforts and love go unrequited, I lose more faith. I am beginning to not care about her, and to not want to fight for this. I'm beginning to have resent her for her lack of effort. Im beginning to believe those friends of mine who say I'm crazy from staying after what she's done. I pray every night for strength to keep going, but I don't know how much longer I can fight.

I'm tired, sad, angry and hurt. There is very little happiness in my life, and I'm afraid I'm going to give up. I don't know that giving up will result in more happiness, but it would at least allow me to seek out some form of love and affection without guilt. I want that from my wife, and only from her, but if that cant happen, I need it from someone at some level.

EH

I'm sorry I haven't read your entire thread and will make an effort to do so. But I thought I would ask if you are on anti depressants? Losing hope is a sign of depression.

You are very early in the process, it requires perseverance and determination. Yes it is grueling and you will be doing all the work in the relationship.

Bottom line it takes time, she has to break free from the addiction and the addiction mindset. Keep doing what you are doing, I admire where you are.

No I'm not on antidepressants, and I don't want them.

Actually, it's the only thing that will build trust. It's doesn't build a blind trust, but rather a trust that comes from your spouse proving over and over again that she is doing what she said she would. Your trust will be built on evidence.

I encourage you to rethink the antidepressents. Used short term, they can really help men get through the initial rough days. You don't need them the rest of your life, just short term to keep your head clear and help you focus on what you need to do without losing hope.

EH I have been reading your thread closely because it seems we are going through a similar journey around the same times, my D day was essentially Christmas Eve.

I could have written this very same paragraph last week and actually did convey the same sentiments. The advice I got on here was to focus on scheduling UA time and making sure we get the recommended 15-20 hours a week. All I can say as we have increased the UA time and my paranoia and need to snoop has declined and I actually feel better about myself.

The times of happiness are important and the building blocks to a more intimate future, focus on creating the times of happiness and let them build on each other. When the affair was going on would she have recognized you are upset and give you a hug or kiss on check, I suspect not so that is a small victory for now. Remember this isn�t an instant fix you are in it for the long haul. So stay the course.

It�s harder to deal with no physical affection from her right now because you working hard and with hard work comes expectations and when they are not being met it hurts. But I bet if you look there are subtle signs of affection that you might not be picking up on because you are hoping for the big fix, baby steps my friend baby steps.

Others may disagree with me but I don�t think you should abandon all your hobbies completely, I think you still need to have some �me� time as part of working on yourself. The thing to do is to schedule them wisely. Are any of these hobbies things that might interest your wife and you could use participating in them together as recreational time?

This starts to sound like a demand and trust me I know the feelings all too well and have them myself at time but we can�t demand these things. You need to continue to create moments of happiness, have UA time and make it pleasant to be around you. Continue to stay strong and show her you are the best option. This is something that may take months or longer to happen. There is no quick and easy fix, all I can say is I stick with the hard work because I believe in the end the rebuilt marriage will be better than anything we ever had before that. So I hope you find a similar belief for yourself and stay the course.

You cared enough to fight for this marriage when you were not getting any affection and the affair was going on, don�t give up so easily because things are not turning around right away. Hang in there it�s been less than a month.

I know many on here recommend you consider antidepressants and you have indicated you are not interested. How do you feel about herbal solutions? If you re ok with that then read up on L-Tyrosine and see if that might help your moods.

He'll have plenty of time for hobbies after UA is being met and after they are each others recreational companion. Right now, additional hobbies could very likely serve to create a contrast effect -- he'll enjoy the hobbies more than his time with his wife.

Right now, he should be spending every moment he can finding ways to meet his wife's emotional needs (in ways he enjoys). "Me" time is not necessary for a healthy, fulfilling marriage.

If snooping is making you weary and paranoid then something is very, very wrong. Snooping reassured me and allowed me to STOP WORRYING. Nothing helped me RELAX more. Being able to see what he was doing every minute of every day was a blessing that helped me RELAX. So, if it is not having that effect, then something is very wrong and it means you can't see what she is doing when she is away from you. That must be changed.

You should have proof of what she does all day long. If her job provides her a secret curtain, then she should find a new job. OR you should be doing a better job of snooping.

Personal hobbies should come second to the marriage. If he has a hobby he enjoys MORE than his leisure time wth his wife, it should be abandoned for now because of the contrast effect. He is no longer a "me," but an "us." His time with his wife should be the most enjoyable time of his week.

We will show her how to FEEL affectionate towards you. If you will follow the policy of UA to the letter, she will fall in love with you in a matter of weeks.

Have you seen this? Listen to the clips in here.
The Critical Importance of Undivided Attention

BH, I will review those clips at my earliest convenience. I have been trying hard to spend as much time together as possible. We are easily spending 20-30 hours or more a week together. I am focusing on UA and communication as those were two things that were severely lacking in our relationship while the affair was going on.

As if she had actually read my post yesterday, we had a very productive conversation last night, the best we've had since I discovered the affair. What's more, it was initiated by her. I had no intention of discussing the affair and how we are progressing, but she really wanted to talk about it. Communication, especially covering an uncomfortable painful topic, are especially difficult for her, so I had no problem obliging. There was a lot discussed, and I won't bother with the details, but she said a lot to convince me that I had done enough to squash this affair and that she really does want to try and find love with me again. She still doesn't want me to expect miracles overnight. She admits that she is still struggling with the decisions she made, how they have destroyed everything we had been trying to build. She said she was punishing herself because she felt I hadn't really punished her, except for the exposure. She wants to start rebuilding trust on both sides, start our relationship over from the very beginning, and build back to the love we once had. I don't think there's a better way to approach this. We have both lost a lot of love for each other and ourselves during the last month, but I think I'm starting to see her at least want to try. That makes a world of difference to me.

I won't stop my snooping, but I saw and heard sincerity from her last night. Time will tell if it was an act, but coupled with the fact that I have seen other key changes in her mood, mannerisms, and habits over the last few weeks since exposure, I don't think it was.

EH

Yesterday I heard Dr. Harley recommend a vacation getaway if possible to really get a lot of UA time. He said Sue and John, the example couple from Surviving an Affair, took a cruise which really helped them.

Are you spending that 20-30 hours out on DATES meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs of affection, conversation, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment? Are you out ALONE on these dates? Or is this time you just happen to be in the house at the same time? Because unless it is the former, it will avail you NOTHING.

When we say UA time, we mean out on DATES. 4 - 4 hour dates out of the home. Most couples absolutely REFUSE to do this step [because their marriage is not a priority] and they NEVER fall in love again. This program will not work unless you do this step RIGHT. Pencil whipping and corner cutting will avail you nothing.


This is very promising. And if she is serious about restoring the love in your marriage, then the place to START is the UA time. Otherwise, it is a pipe dream that will never happen. You will end up with a crippled version of your pre-affair marriage.


Trust, but verify, always. Snooping and transparency will restore your trust. "Sincerity," "remorse," etc, is worthless. What counts are ACTION steps towards recovery. All the "remorse" and crocodile tears in the world will NOT save a marriage. It is meaningless. Only actions count.

We are spending plenty of time together, but admittedly it's not all UA time out of the home. Quite frankly, she just doesn't want to spend UA time with me. She feels betrayed and controlled by the "demands" I've made to make her change her life. She says she understands why I had to make them, but it does not do anything to restore her love for me. She is not making much of an attempt to start conversation or suggest recreational activities for us to do, and there is even less of an attempt at emotional fullfillment or intimacy. I only see the latter two after she's had a few drinks, which isn't often, though it has increased in the last few weeks. I'm monitoring that closely, but it isn't a concern of mine currently.

She will either reluctantly oblige to UA time because she knows I want to do things with her, or just say she'd rather stay home. She'd much rather go out with me and some friends then just me. It's not UA time, but it makes her happy and she actually shows me more attention and affection when we are in a group setting, so I've been trying to work that in. I am trying to shoulder the load, but I need some buy in from her at some point. Also, her clear reluctance makes me not want to do anything with her either.

All that being said, I honestly feel the steps I've taken have ended the affair, and that it would still be ongoing had I not, so I regret nothing. I'm in a bad spot now, but it's still better than where I was two months ago.

I have started taking antidepressants, and they are helping to at least regulate my mood and permit me to focus. I was reluctant, but I'm glad I relented on that.

She says she wants to try to rebuild, but wants to do it right and rebuild from the ground up. When I ask her what that means, what her plan is, or who she wants us to see or talk to, she has no answer. She has no plan, and has clearly made no effort to research a plan. I believe that she just wants to somehow fall in love with me again over time. I don't see how that's possible when she doesn't want to do anything with me.

So, I'm in a holding pattern right now, until she trusts me again or until I relent on the limits I've put on where she is allowed to go and who she is allowed to see without me, which I cannot do. This is impossibly frustrating. She needs to trust me, when I'm the one who was betrayed. ridiculous.

So, I guess I have to wait and keep it up. At some point I'd like to have her read Surviving and Affair and review the marriage builders concepts, but I feel right now it'll be rejected outright or fall on deaf ears. I don't think she wants to be helped right now. But, how much longer do I wait?

EH

Why doesn't she like going out with you? Can you ask her what you could do to make yourself more pleasant to be around?

Do you have road rage? Are you unpleasant to be around? How enjoyable are you to be with?

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4500_resource.html

Go and print up a bunch of these questionnaires and ask her if she will fill them out. Especially the "marital analysis" and the "love buster" Q.

I certainly don't feel that I'm unpleasant. I've never had a problem making or keeping friends. We went out all the time before the baby and her affair. I suggest places she would enjoy and try to focus the conversation on positive topics she is interested in. I think she's just struggling with depression and guilt from all that has happened. She doesn't trust that I'm being honest about not wanting to divorce her or somehow do more to "humiliate her" to our friends and family, though I've sworn I won't. She hates the feeling of being controlled, but that's her own fault. All in all, She just doesn't want to try to love me right now. The weather is cold and bleak here which doesn't help with options for UA out of the home, and she recently started working again which means more stress and less time with our 16 month old daughter. Also, My daughter's needs limit our out of the home UA opportunities. We do things together at home, but she often just isn't interested in doing anything, especially during the week.

Some days are worse than others. Some are pleasant, which gives me hope, but 4 dates outside the home is just not something she wants to commit to right now.

I just have to focus on the small victories and be patient that she will eventually come around and make more of an effort. There's really no other answer, is there?



I will do that. I don't expect much buy-in, but what can I lose at this point?

EH

Is it normal for WW to not want to show any physical affection to me at all 5 weeks after exposure? I had hoped by now that would change. She did the same thing during the affair. We did not have sex at all (over a year), though I did try. She almost never hugged me, kissed me on the lips, or told me she loved me unless I initiated it. and from a kissing perspective, I almost always got a turned cheek.

Now, 5 weeks after exposure, very little has changed from a physical perspective. We have been intimate once, but alcohol had much to do with that. The next day, back to zero affection. Still, that kept me in an incredible mood for days. I'm positively starving for physical contact of any kind from her. I live off it. I don't need regular sexual fulfillment right now, but I do need physical shows of affection from her very badly. Her consistent reasoning is that she doesn't want to lead me on, but how do you fix a broken relationship by continuing to treat your spouse the exact same way as you had before?

I have made many significant changes to my behavior and appearance to correct the problems that she indicated had led to the affair, which I have outlined in a previous post. She feels she has done enough for now just by leaving OM and not taking my 16 month old child away from me. She's actually eluded to that very fact in conversation.

Quite frankly, that isn't enough for me. I know everything I've been reading says I need to avoid making demands, avoid love busters, and keep conversation positive under all circumstances, but I'm kind of frustrated at the lack of effort from her. I can't do this alone. I love her. I really do love her, and I need her affection to return to a stable emotional state, but if she doesn't need or want the same from me, then what am I fighting for?

How do I say "you're not doing enough" without sounding controlling or as if I'm making demands?

EH

Yes.


There's no way to say that without being disrespectful.

Start by asking her what else you can do for her.

I've asked several times. When I ask what more I can do to specifically restore her love for me, she says "nothing".

In that case, you have to find out yourself through trial and error.

Are you scheduling 25-30 hours a week with her to give her your undivided attention and engage in conversation and recreational companionship with her?

She will not be motivated to meet your emotional needs until she is in love with you again, so you need to accomplish that as soon as possible.

I see that above you seemed to be ruling out the possibility of taking her out on dates. Don't expect her to ever feel good about being affectionate toward you if you aren't going to find a way to make that happen. Treat this as a problem that you HAVE to find a solution for, not as something that is just impossible and will have to be skipped.

I am trying hard to do that, but she is not always interested. We spend more than 25-30 hours a week together, but I wouldn't call it all UA time. I am suggesting activities inside and outside the home, and alone, with friends, with her family and together with our daughter, but she shoots much of the one-on-one outside the home stuff down. We are home together every week night and all weekend, so she's not getting UA from anyone else, but she is still reluctant. For now, I have been trying to at least show interest in the shows she wants to watch and in-home activities that we can both discuss and work on together (board games, redecorating, remodeling, etc.)

Triggers are a big hurdle for us right now. They are everywhere for me, and at times I have difficulty suppressing my response to them when I'm around her. I really do try, but she often notices, and she says my moodiness makes her think I despise her and makes her feel guilty. She feels she's broken me beyond repair. I've assured her that it will get easier for me as she replaces these images with new loving experiences. That was exactly the result when we were intimate last week. Nothing bothered me for four days. But one show of affection does not make up for a year of infidelity for which I have more intimate details than I should. Without more affection the images and pain returned.

So we are in a loop. My emotional struggles are contributing to her lack of affection, and vice versa.

Eddie,

What is often said on MB is that it will take a minimum of two years to recover sometimes longer, similar to getting over a death in the family.

God Bless
Gamma

Well, I'm not going two more years without physical affection. Not from someone who should be proving to me that she has remorse for detroying my life and family before it even had a chance to begin. Instead it's the other way around, and I have to cater to a selfish self-centered person who bailed on my family at the first sign of adversity and blames me for making recovery impossible every time I show a moment of weakness . I want to fix this, but I need her to realize that at least 50% of the problem is hers, not 10%, and give me some effort.

Well, good luck with that. That attitude never works and the marriage ends. After a few years of suffering, first.

I felt the same way and it didn't work for me, either.

If you want a plan to get your wife on board, that's what we'll help you do. I agree with you that she SHOULD be on board now, but she is not, and emphasizing how upset you feel about it won't help anything. It would be better to just go see a divorce attorney and head on out; end contact with her permanently to minimize your pain, and move on.

If you want to keep your marriage, though, let us know, and we will be glad to help. It's going to require doing some things you don't want to do, though.

Most WW do not feel remorse. Ever. Some will eventually, but don't count on it.

But remorse is not required for recovery.

You guys need to move away from the triggers. And you need to guarantee that even when you are triggered, you do not act demanding, disrespectful, or angry towards your wife. Can you guarantee that?

Are you listening to the radio show, daily?

Have you introduced your wife to this plan - have you shown her the book Surviving an Affair?

She is probably not going to get on board with showing you affection until she is in love with you. Most wives do not. It usually takes the husband priming the pump by meeting her emotional needs when he does not feel like it. It is extremely uncommon for a marriage to be saved by the wife meeting emotional needs when she does not feel like it.

If this is hard for you, I would encourage you to see a doctor (your regular doctor will work) and ask to have antidepressants prescribed for you for the short term while you work this plan to save your marriage. I eventually did that; I wish I'd done it a lot sooner.

WW and I talked. I made a point to be calm and reassuring throughout. She said she still loves OM and cannot begin to love me until she gets over him. She said "what you see is what you get for the time being". She will not seek counseling of any kind until she is over OM, but she encouraged me to seek counseling so I can cope with what she did to me, because she can't give me what I require. How thoughtful of her....

She is remorseful, but does not want to spend considerable UA time with me right now, or try very hard to rebuild. She says she needs to heal first.

So there you have it.

Typical WW fogbabble. Nothing there we haven't heard a hundred times. You are facing what many BH have faced before you.

So, are you going to follow the program?

You didn't answer any of these questions. We can help you with all of the problems you described and I have been exactly where you are with a reluctant wife who did not want to do Marriage Builders. If you will do the things I am asking you about, that is the first steps to take on the path that will teach you how to get your wife on board.

Most men who post here do not have a wife who is enthusiastic about Marriage Builders. Frequently that reluctant wife is a formerly wayward wife. If you would like to learn how to solve that problem, we can help you do that if we can get you engrossed into educating yourself in the Marriage Builders program. If you are just posting to show us that the problem is unsolvable because of your wife, then you can't move anywhere until we get you busy getting educated.

So let me ask again, are you listening to the Marriage Builders Radio program, daily?

Don't talk to your wife about the affair again.

If you are telling me that it is common for a BH to follow this program alone, and it will work without her buy-in, then I will do that.

To answer your questions:

I cannot move away from triggers, unless I leave my wife and 16 month old daughter for the time being, which I don't see as helpful, nor do I or WW want that. WW refuses to consider moving unless we decide to separate/divorce, and I will not move my child far away from our extended family who love her very much and see her regularly, which would be required since OM works in the next town.

She will not entertain the option of counseling or recovery now. She knows I'm reading Surviving an Affair. I've shown her this site and the book. She is not interested.

I will call my doctor and get on prescription anti-depressants. I have been taking OTC AD supplements, but clearly they are not effective enough.

I am rarely demanding, disrespectful, or angry towards my wife when I am triggered. I am generally quiet but visibly upset, withdrawn or aggravated. That is usually enough to push her away. I will try harder to hide my pain.

I will start listening to the program each day.

We did not speak of the details of affair last night, nor do we ever. I have no desire to. She brought up the lingering love of OM as an explanation for her inability to give me the affection I require. I did not even ask her for an explanation, nor did I want one.

So then, I guess I have to keep working on UA time. As I have posted, I have been trying. I am making suggestions and offering to take her places and do things I know she would enjoy. She is resisting most out of the home requests, so I am limited to joining in the activities she likes to do at home or with our daughter or her extended family. I don't believe that fits the description of UA time, but it's the best she'll give me.

EH

I have decided to employ the steps outlined below. Please let me know if I am on the right track, and what else I should be doing or not doing to work towards rebuilding my wife's love for me and getting her on board with the program.

1. take antidepressants

2. study and practice meditation and yoga

3. respond to triggers internally only. If necessary, calmly leave the room or situation which caused the trigger until I can regain composure, especially if WW is present.

4. expect zero affection or sexual fulfillment from WW for the foreseeable future.

5. continue to show her affection daily, even if it is not reciprocated.

6. build up to 25-30hrs a week of UA time, as WW will permit, focusing entirely on her interests and needs. Suggest activities, but do not insist we do them. Agree to any suggestions she may have, even of they are not one-on-one activities.

7. Allow her some private time as she requests it, even if it affects UA goals.

8. Continue to read Surviving and Affair and listen to the Marriage Builders radio program

9. Continue to improve on the items WW identified in me that caused her to fall out of love with me.

10. Completely disregard my personal needs for affection and love, and the desire for a quickened pace of recovery. That has led to disappointment, aggravation, and resentment for WW, and has only slowed recovery.


any other suggestions?

EH

Have you listened to the clips in here?

Dr. Harley on How to Deal With Triggers

Yes. I've listened to those clips and tried to leverage the advice therein whenever possible.

I'm having another issue now which will affect UA time. Money. There isn't much left. I control the finances, so I know very little was spent by WW on the affair, but the last two months of snooping, investigating, trying to provide UA time and catering to WW have drained the discretionary and savings accounts to zero. UA time will be even more difficult now, and she'll have yet another excuse to not want to go anywhere with me.

Hopefully with spring coming I can find more free and cheap activities out of doors, and more progress can be made.

At least if this doesn't work out, she can't take half of nothing....

Still praying it doesn't come to that.

EH

EH

I just want to encourage you to stay strong and focus on working the plan, it would be great to see you become one of the success stories around here.

It�s good you are not talking about the affair, but what kind of stuff do you talk about?

Use the conversations as a chance to talk about the future and paint a happy picture of you, her and your daughter. It can be as simple has how much fun it will be to take your daughter to the park when the weather breaks and how exciting it will be to watch her explore and play. Its months away but talk about how you want to celebrate your daughters birthday has a family, get her to give you ideas what she thinks would be a fun way to do it.

I understand when money gets tight it can be hard to do things, but get creative. Instead of going on a �date� see if a family member would watch your daughter so the 2 of you can go to the mall and walk around window shopping for something for the house that would inexpensive to get since you are tight on funds. A new lamp, bedding something simple you might need or want. Maybe pick a room that needs new paint and go shopping with her to pick out colors. Maybe have her pick out a new outfit that you can set a goal to save up for as a couple.

Does your community have free or cheap things to do at libraries or community centers or civic groups.

Find a local place that does karaoke and go sing or make fun of the people who do together.

Have a family member watch your daughter and challenge her to a cooking competition in your kitchen, have you both make your own flavor of the same dish and serve it to each other. Or play a game like a cooking show you each name ingredients and an amount of time each has to make a meal out of it.

Do you have a local winery or brewery, usually they have free tours and you get samples.

Heck go to a high school or college play

Hopefully you get the idea look around there has to be cheap or free things to do even in the winter months that will allow the 2 of you to create good memories together.

Thanks for the advice and the words of confidence, ThePhoenix. They are much appreciated. We have been doing some of the things you have suggested, and I will try to incorporate more of your ideas and my own.

I'm certainly at a frustrating phase right now. There are times where her lack of effort make me want to throw in the towel, other times where I actually feel sympathy seeing her struggle to move forward out of the fog , and still others where I can tell she still has regret for her actions and love for me.

I will say at least that where I am now is far better than where I was a month ago, fighting to rid my family of the disease of this affair. At that time I would have given everything just to have OM gone. Now I have that, and I should take some comfort there from.

I don't know if I will see this through. I'm not even sure that I want to, to be honest. I have been emotionally destroyed, disrespected, and humiliated more than I ever imagined possible. And of all people, the person whom I cherished more than anything in this world was the one who inflicted that pain. As a result, I'm not sure I can live with that for the rest of my life. This process has drained away almost all of my love for her, and I don't know that I can or even want to get it back.

But I do know that I want to try. Some days more than others, but I want to try, and I believe that the advice available on this site gives me the best opportunity for success.

Thank you again to everyone who has provided me with advice and support on this site. I have no doubt that I would be in a far worse position today had I not come here, and that has already made it worthwhile.

EH

You need to decide. No one would blame you if you divorce her now, but recovery has no hope with a husband who is half-hearted. You've got to be all-in or nothing.

You are right. I know I need to be all-in on this, and I will be. This is a new hurdle for me, and I'm confident I'll overcome it. Up until a few days ago I did not question my commitment, but the lack of affection and almost complete loss of love for my wife has given me pause.

I'll focus on my daughter. The need to be in her life every single day instead of some form of joint custody is enough to keep me trying. I can't allow her grow up without me, especially in an environment where adulterous behavior is condoned by her mother.

She cannot be taught that it is acceptable to choose yourself over those whom you have vowed to love and cherish forever. She cannot grow up to believe that you can run away as soon as life gets difficult or doesn't turn out as you had expected. If I give up now, then she will have two parents who will have done that, not just one.

Her need to grow up in a family where at least one parent has real values is paramount. My needs are secondary. My parents showed me the importance of family. They worked hard to provide for their five children and teach us to never give up on one another, no matter what, and we are all very close as a result. I, at least, will do the same for my child.

There are those who will tell me this is the wrong reason to stay. I won't argue that, but in my current world where just about everything is wrong, she is the one thing I can keep close to me that is right.

EH

If your marriage is to recover, you will also have to drop the disrespectful judgments.

The thing your daughter needs most is two parents who are in love with each other, and the best thing you can do for your child is to love her mother. Why not follow the plan here to restore love to your marriage?

Are you listening to the radio show daily? Got those antidepressants prescribed, yet?

You're both right. And for what it's worth, I've never said anything like that to her. I know it would be counterproductive. But it does help for me to get those thoughts off my chest here or to trustworthy friends whom I know won't repeat it.

I am reading SAA, and listening to the broadcasts.

I have a doctors appt. Monday for the prescription

Any thoughts on when I can reintroduce this program to her. Short of her saying "I'm ready", are there any signs I should be looking for? I don't want to try again too soon and push her even further from choosing this program.

When you can talk about the problems you have in the marriage without being disrespectful or bringing up the past, then you may be able to start talking to her about those things from time to time. Start practicing being always respectful to her even when you are speaking to others about her.

Great advice Markos, letting go of the hurt and learning to do this was tough for me, but once I got it me and my wife moved forward at light speed. She knew what she did and didn't need me punishing her for something she was already beating herself up over. What she needed from me was to remind her she is a good person and make her feel good about herself.

EH
Even if you are not directly saying stuff I have to wonder if some of these feelings/judgments you have posted here are subtlety coming out in the interactions with your WW and if that might be part of the reason she is have a hard time with showing affection. Body language sometimes speaks louder than words.

It's possible. I've not had any issues around her this week, although I'm also no longer expecting any love from her, which has calmed me down considerably. Tonight she actually suggested we go check out a newly opened restaurant together, so we did. I didn't mention money concerns and just jumped at the opportunity. It didn't last 4 hours, but it was still UA time, and it went well.

Still no affection, but I was happy we were able to have pleasant conversation for an evening and not mention anything about our troubles.

My concern is that I am no longer compelled to show her any affection either. I'm still doing it, mainly to remind myself that the ultimate goal is to one day be rebuild our love, and to show her that I do still care, but when she admitted to me that she still has love for OM and will not be able to show me any love until she overcomes it, I guess I just shut down.

Maybe I'm in my own sort of fog. Hopefully it doesn't last very long.

Time will tell if it returns. I still enjoy being with her, and had a great time with her tonight, so that was a very good sign.

No denying the admission of still having love for the OM is a big ouch, but at least she was able to be honest with you about where she is at and probably wasn't intending to hurt you but help you manage your expectations.

Affection is shown in many ways, and its not always physical. What is the tone of her voice when she is speaking to you, how does she look at you. Is she receptive to your touch. Look even suggesting to go out to dinner is a small sign she is willing to spend time alone with you.

Sounds to me like you are making progress

You are right. No harm was intended in her admission, but it did hurt, even though it came as no surprise.

Her words were "I am dead inside. I was in love with him, and that was taken away from me. I keep hoping I'll wake up and be over him, and fully realize that I need to save my family, but I haven't been able to yet. I just don't want to try right now."

If she still loves him, he continues to be a threat and impairment to recovery. It also increases my suspicion that they are still in contact somehow, despite my continued snooping. Even if it's just briefly here and there, that's probably enough to make her recovery impossible.

As for our demeanor together, We are generally pleasant around each other, unless one of us is depressed. In those cases, silence dominates. We are not directly disrespectful or judgmental to one another. We can still joke and laugh together. We enjoy time together with our daughter. We talk about future plans for our daughter and home now and then. Communication has improved now that she's not texting OM constantly. She doesn't push me away when I attempt to hug or kiss her, but I wouldn't call her "responsive to my touch". She will not kiss me on the lips, and rarely returns an "I love you". It's been that way since the affair began. I admit I eventually gave up complimenting her and showing her much physical affection. That was in response to the neglect she was showing me. That being said, I never stopped saying I love you or trying to hug and kiss her. I'm trying to increase my shows of physical affection, but it's very difficult for me to do so when it is not reciprocated. She really is "dead inside" as she said.

How do I rebuild love when she doesn't appear to want to be loved? Showing her physical affection and not having it reciprocated just hurts me more. But not showing her any will doom this to failure. I just don't know the right course of action.

EH

As long as there is no contact, it doesn't matter that she is still in love with him. He may continue to have a positive balance in her lovebank for the rest of her life, which is why it is crucial she never sees or talks to him again.

But, that positive balance won't affect your recovery if YOU do what you need to do to fill her lovebank.

You need to step up your Plan A game.

Are you on antidepressants yet? When you are depressed and silent around her, you will not do the things she needs to fall in love with you, and you come off as very unattractive.

She needs you to talk to her, frequently, about things she LOVES to talk about. Concentrate your efforts on pleasant, exciting, engaging conversations about things that matter to her.

Are you getting OUT of the house on DATES?

Well I caught them meeting in a parking lot today on her lunch hour and confronted them, so I guess we are back to square one. I was tailing her and they had barely even had a chance to get out of their cars, so I know nothing had gone on. They both said they swore they were just checking up on one another to see how each other and their families were doing , and hadn't seen or spoken to each other since I exposed over a month ago. They said this meeting was set up through a mutual friend. either way, that's contact.

OM claims OMW has been all over him as has been his employer (He was off duty today) and that his children are devastated, to which I replied that he should focus on them and not my family. Really, I didn't much care what either of them had to say. I tried my best to keep calm, and I think I did a fairly good job. I just kept repeating that the only thing I care about is that he stay away from my wife and daughter, because we cannot begin the healing process until he is out of our lives. He gave me his word that he would, but his word means nothing to me. I said very little to my wife, but her words mean nothing to me as well.

That's all for now. My wife went back to work. I'm heading to pick up my daughter before my wife gets home. we'll see where it goes from there.

EH

Are they working together? At the same company?
Did the NC letter ever get sent?

You're going to need to move. You cannot live in the same town as this guy.

Are you on antidepressants yet?

Have you told your daughter?

Who are these mutual friends? You will need to cut them out of your life.

Eddie,

Wow sorry to hear that.

Have you re-considered moving, also is there anyone else on OMs side to expose to, or can you get him fired for this, go further up his chain of command.

God Bless
Gamma

My daughter is only 16 months old, so no. Sorry if I didn't mention her age.

My wife will not move. Also, To move far enough away, I'd have to take my daughter away from her extended family on my side. They are an integral part of her life and I will not take that away from her. I also need them right now, more than ever.

Let's just say I'm not happy with WW and her constant lies. I have some thinking to do, but I may be done with this.

Thank you all again for your help. I wish it would have had better results to this point.

Your marriage will not recover, then. It is only a matter of time till she sees him again.

I know now that it won't. Even if I wanted to move, WW won't, so it makes no difference. And they clearly will never end their relationship. I'll lose my daughter now because of this.

I cannot get him fired. They are no longer meeting while he's on duty. Even if I could, he wouldn't move far enough away.

I believe my last resort is Plan B. But how does that work with a young Child? WW won't leave her behind and I won't allow WW to take her away from me.

But she cannot live without my financial support, so I don't see how plan B would work anyway.

***EDIT***

EH,

You don't need to move with her. You can move away first and she can follow if she ends the affair. That is what I have done. It's not easy with a kid and moving away from your support system (I moved to mine). But it can be done.

EH

I am so sorry to hear about this latest turn of events, but it doesn't surprise me because when I bounced your situation off my wife her initial response was contact hasn't ended.

Have you exposed this latest contact to the OMW, if not you should since she has a right to know.

Have you decided what you want to do yet, do you want to dig in and still fight for her, the marriage and your family or have you decided to move towards plan b.? Are you still working plan A while deciding for yourself or have you shut down.

Has your WW indicated what she wants or is your comment about her not giving up the OM because you are feeling down and defeated? When you say they will never end the realtionship does he plan on leaving his BW and does she plan on leaving you, or do they think they can continue the fantasy?

Can you get custody and move with her?

It's hard to see how extended family can be more important than her parents marriage.

I cannot get custody. Infidelity is not a crime in my state, and is rarely considered in custody cases. As long as WW is not causing harm to my child and OM is not causing harm to her, I cannot keep either of them away from her, so long as WW permits it. I have consulted several family law attorneys and they have all echoed this same sentiment.

WW will not move, so if I move away, I do it alone. If I take my child, all she has to do is go to the local authorities and they will force me to either return home with her or give her back to WW, unless I can prove WW has done her physical harm, which she hasn't. I have already discussed that option with lawyers and was STRONGLY advised against it. The laws in my state are extremely pro-mother in custody cases, and it would only make me look bad in future proceedings.

I will provide an update of current status later today. We are all still in our home, but any trust she had rebuilt with me since exposure is now gone.

More to come when I have time.

Thank you all again for your thoughts, concern and advice.

EH

Eddie, I would tell your wife that there is no way your marriage can recover living where you are living. Come back here and tell us what she says.

Have you told the extended family that she is still in contact with the OM?

EH,

Waywards constantly threaten to take kids. I moved without my WHs written consent and it was fine. He is at a point now that he can't really get her back even if he wants to because his behavior is basically defacto consent.

What I did was to have my lawyer talk to him about moving and what it would take to allow me to move and he agreed to a post-nup (which has amounted to nothing, but that's another story).

Remember that waywards are selfish and the affair comes first, often. My WH was a great dad, he was even a stay at home dad after she was born. Now he sees her once a month in person and I think he feels the loss.

I live in CA and I was strongly advised against moving as well, but it worked. What I did was come up with a back-up plan in case my dd was ordered back by a court. The first thing I would so was to let him take her for a few weeks on his own. He would hate that because it would mess up his affair. Secondly, I would move back with a friend if I absolutely needed to to regain custody.

I am happy to let you know the details of what I did if you would like.

EddieHead,

Can you re-expose OM?

Please find and speak with his ex-wives, they may be able to provide evidence of a violent or abusive personality

God Bless
Gamma

Yes tell the OMW that they broke NC again.

EH,

I'm not sure if I am reading what you wrote correctly but, you appear to have resigned to your WW allowing OM to have contact with your child.

If that is true I would encourage you to re-expose OM and put as much pressure on OM as is humanly possible, OM must understand that their will be consequences if he abuses your child. Putting up posters with OMs face and story on every telephone pole in the town where he lives might be a good idea.

Caption it "OFFICER OM THANKS FOR DESTROYING MY FAMILY, TRY STICKING TO FIGHTING CRIME WHILE ON DUTY IN THE FUTURE." add a picture of your WW in her wedding dress.

God Bless
Gamma

Yes. Lexapro. started it two days ago. I'm not happy about it, but it has definitely "leveled me out".

They wouldn't tell me. Anyway, I suspect that's a lie.


Yes. I told her as soon as I left the confrontation with OM and WW. She had apparently just had lunch with him immediately beforehand. We agreed to stay in contact and exchange info regularly. She believes they are using prepaid cell phones, since she has daily access to his phone logs. I have yet to find one, but it makes sense. Yesterday she contacted me and said she had a long talk with OM and she believes my confronting has made him realize him that I wont give up, that he is going to destroy two families if he keeps up contact, and that he would stop. He said the same thing to me along with an apology. I told her not to believe it, because I certainly don't.


I have not decided. I do not love my wife right now and I have no desire to work plan A currently. I will likely decide to return to plan A/recovery, but not without a complete re-commitment from her to the exposure list. I haven't brought that up yet. For now, we are being pleasant to one another, but she knows her breaking of NC has put our marriage back into severe jeopardy.


WW continues to claim that she regrets what she has done and is struggling to get over him so we can recover. For the first time, she actually spoke of her feelings for him as an "addiction", and not just "lingering love". She claims she wants to try to fix our marriage, as she always has. She swears that until Monday she hasn't seen or contacted him since exposure six weeks ago.

She and OM both said that this was their first meeting since exposure, that OM set it up and the intention was to check up on one another to see that everything was going ok with one another's recovery. WW had hoped this meeting would provide her with some closure. WW has again promised to have no contact with OM, as did OM give his word to me that there would be none. They both seemed sincere, but I've been here before. I don't know what is truth and what isn't, so I can believe none of it.

I don't know if they feel they can still continue the fantasy or not, but I am almost positive OM will not leave his wife and family for WW. If he does, the fantasy will end. He knows full well he cannot support two families, and WW cannot support herself on child support alone if I am out of the picture.


She has never threatened to take my daughter away and swears she will never do so. She acknowledges I am a good father and am an important part of her life. She has said that from the beginning.


No. not at all true. They both know that while legally I can do nothing to keep him away from my daughter, I will continue to fight to keep him away from her. I told him that flat out, and I have echoed that sentiment many times to WW.

Plan A doesn't depend on her re-commitment. You either Plan A her, or you go to Plan B. Anything else is Plan C (Chaos), and will fail.

If she were committed you wouldn't need Plan A. You'd be in recovery.

She may be willing to move if he dumps her and you insist.

Sorry. That's what I meant. Plan A if she doesn't recommit, recovery If she does. But right now, I need to determine if I have the desire to pursue either. I know I can't linger in this state of indecision, but that's where I am right now.

Have you done this?

I would say to think hard about a timeline and after you get that out, base your Plan around that.

You can't control what she does, you can only control what you do and how long you're willing to wait for her. Think about where you'd like to be in 6 months or a year and base the length of your Plan A on that.

An unsuccessful Plan A is not a fun destination and it is helpful to have a timeline if you need to pull the plug and go to Plan B.

Dr. Harley recommends a 6 month Plan A for men.
But if you are going to go that route, you have to actually Plan A. Since you are now on antidepressants, you can likely handle that.
If you can't Plan A, go to Plan B. But none of this waffling, which will not end well.

Another BH that needs to move his WW far away from the OM yet does not. Sad. For it just allowed for NC to be broken. How many more breaks in NC will you allow before you move your family?

EH

Just wondering how you are doing and where you are at with your WW?

Their relationship is over, but I fear the damage to our
relationship is beyond repair. This battle has really taken a toll on me. I don't feel like a human being.

My love for my wife is gone, or at least so deeply buried in pain that I can't find it right now. I am fighting pride, embarrassment and sexual inadequacy.

Pride tells me I am too good a person to have deserved this treatment. Pride tells I should not stay with someone who betrayed me so willingly, who said such horrible things about me to OM, and who kept going back after I discovered and exposed. I am trying hard not to buckle to my pride, but I am stumbling.

The intimate details I have of their sexual relationship is crippling, and everything seems to trigger those thoughts. TV, random conversations, anything remotely related to sex triggers an image of them together. Knowing that I have gone 18 months without any intimacy while she was having sex with OM almost every day is demoralizing. I am starved for affection and intimate contact, but she cannot give that to me, so I have stopped seeking it from her. She is meeting most of my other needs, but I don't care as much about them. I can cook and clean and shop for myself. I need physical affection and intimacy to replace the images of them together. At best, I get a hug now and then. that's simply not enough.

Very little in life makes me happy right now. The antidepressants level me out, but that's about it. I don't really want to be around anyone; not my wife, not friends, not family, not coworkers. I find myself wandering around malls and grocery stores because I don't feel comfortable in any of the places that should make me happy.

I'm lost. I still want to live a long and happy life, but I don't know to what degree that involves my wife. I don't know which path will lead me to happiness, and I don't see any choices resulting in much happiness in the near term.

No one can answer these questions for me. I have to search my soul and decide for myself.

EH

What are you doing as far as Plan A?

Dr. Harley recommends a 6 month Plan A for men.
But if you are going to go that route, you have to actually Plan A. Since you are now on antidepressants, you can likely handle that.
If you can't Plan A, go to Plan B. But none of this waffling, which will not end well.

Also, if you do not move, you will likely never recover.

I had many of the same feelings, thoughts and images you are dealing with and to be honest I still have an occasional trigger, but the key thing is as we have spent more time together and created new happy memories of us, those feelings, images and triggers have diminished. I suspect this is something that isn't unique to us and all BS's deal with this.

You need to search your soul sooner than later and decided if you are going to plan A or plan B and then begin executing it. Right now it sounds like you are in limbo doing neither and that is leaving you to wander around in your own fog. Once you decide and start executing either plan you will have a focus that will help you move forward.

Both plans will be hard work with different results so choose wisely, but choose one soon and move your life forward.

Prisca,
Thank you for the advice. If I decide to do Plan A, then I will give it my full effort, but I'm not sure that's what I want. You advise not to waffle, and I respect that, but I am at a critical personal crossroad, one where I very well may choose divorce, I did not arrive at this position without months of struggle, and as such I will not make a rash decision regarding the direction of my life. All roads lead to some level of pain and hopefully eventual recovery and happiness, but I do not yet know which path minimizes the former and maximizes the latter.

I have told her I do not think we can recover unless we move. She disagrees, and will not move so there's nothing I can do about that.

In the meantime, I am searching for a reason to love my wife, and for evidence that I can live with what I know of her relationship with OM. If I can come to terms with both, I will Plan A. If not, I will file for divorce and move on.

I'm sure my feelings are in no way unique, and it does give me some comfort to know that. It also gives me some level of confidence that we can recover, if we choose that path.

I'm not sure why you are concluding that there is nothing you can do. You need to keep this problem on the front burner - keep bringing it up. Don't just drop it and try to make things work without it.

But while you are deciding you need to be in Plan A so she has good memories of you. Otherwise you are damaging your chances of recovery.

If you truly want to keep both options available to you, then you need to be in either Plan A or Plan B. Otherwise it's like you are burning the house down while trying to decide if you want to stay in the house.

What are your WW's reasons for not moving.

She doesn't want to deal with moving. She doesn't want to uproot our child. She doesn't feel a move is necessary for us to recover, and that if it doesn't work, it would just be a waste of money. It's a bunch of garbage.

Just like she doesn't want to seek any sort of therapy, counseling, or work recovery plan. She feels that it is enough for now that she is no longer in contact with OM and that she hasn't left with the baby. The latter is meaningless because by law I could have my daughter back in a matter of days. She will not meet any more of my requests. I have met every one of hers, including her requests to back off from trying to set up UA time and show her affection, which I feel are counter productive. She says she is not "ready". I don't know what she's waiting for, unless she just wants me to be the one to say it's over.

She may get that wish sooner rather than later.

EH

And all of that could change with a good 6 month Plan A.
That's what Plan A is for.

You need to make up your mind -- the longer you put off Plan A, the less likely your marriage will ever recover.

EddieHead, have you contacted Dr. Harley?

Hello Eddie,

I feel badly for what you're going thru.

***EDIT***

the suggestion by Markos to engage in counseling with Harley is good. I think you need professional MB guidance or at least advice now in making your decisions.

***EDIT***

Prayers,
Tom

Tom,
Thank you. I do not feel pressured. I greatly appreciate and give consideration to all the advice being given from all who are willing to help. Most of it has been very useful, even if I can not follow it directly. I do agree though that at this point it's best if I seek professional help.

Thank you again everyone. I know you all have the best intentions and want to help me restore my marriage, or at very least decide whether or not to try.

EH

There is a big difference piglet. The difference is genital parts. If you have female parts you receive more leniency from the courts than If you have male parts, despite supreme court rulings. It is sexism at its worst.

She wants to be near her lover.

They have probably been meeting in parking lots for weeks, using cell phones.
my wife (now divorced) used pre paid cell phones to be in contact with her lover after a supposed commitment to end her affair.
They are very affordable and even if you find out, she can get another one for $5.
You have no chance at recovery until she commits to no contact.

If you email Dr. Harley, as some suggested, he will likely give you the advice in his book Surviving An Affair and advice Plan A for 6 months. Listen, I understand you dont like her and you have every right not to. But Harley would encourage you to consider Plan A for the sake of your child.
As terrible as your wife has become, there is hope for recovery IF you follow his methods in Surviving An Affair exactly. This includes moving AFTER she commits to writing a No Contact letter.

Tom, you are giving terrible advice. There is quite a bit of urgency here, and Eddie needs to make a decision. Every day he stays in limbo instead of doing Plan A, his wife drifts further away and recovery becomes that much more impossible. He has been in limbo for MONTHS trying to figure out what he wants to do.

To tell a BH to take his time is a marriage killer. That is like telling a man to sit around in a burning house while he tries to figure out if he really wants to leave or not. Action is paramount here.

Really, Tom, the last thing he needs is encouragement to dawdle any longer.

I'm not sure it had anything to do with my lady parts. He hasn't taken me to court and I doubt he ever will. It just had to do with wanting to be near his AP without my interference and the responsibility of his kid. This was a man who was literally one of the most dedicated dads ever. I counted myself so lucky that he had such a strong family commitment and for me it made up for what he lacked in financial commitment (now he is failing on all fronts, obviously). All I am saying is that he wants his ap more than his kid, so he screamed a lot and then did nothing when I actually did it.

So true. Really listen to Prisca.

I was going to make another suggestion to Eddie and I saw your post. I'm surprised at you Jedi! You usually post pretty straight and on-spot comments. From what I can sense Eddie seems to have the bases covered in terms of his wife running off with their daughter. And, I think he is well aware of why his wife doesn't want to move. **edit**

Eddie, you mentioned your pride as an obstacle to attempting a Plan A to attempt to recover your marriage. In football, which I am a fan of, the 'pride' of an O-line or D-line player is intact until he makes a mistake or misjudges and the opposing player sets him on his [censored], and a QB is sacked, or an opposing RB gashes the defense for a big gain. But, the good player gets up, dusts himself off, resets, digs in, and on the next play knocks the opposing player on his [censored]. Why does he make such an effort on that next play - yea it's partly because his pride was hurt, but I think it's also because of trying to recover and contribute to a win for his team!

Football players get pretty upset when an opposing player knocks them down. Bh's should get more upset when an OM knocks the husband on his [censored] by intruding on his marriage, and brainwashes his wife. Unfortunately a lot of BH's don't get up and fight back when knocked down this way.

Eddie, I know you're very upset and undecided now. You've been knocked on your [censored] and you're not sure if your W is worth playing the rest of the game. That is entirely your decision. However, the opposing player in your case is not your wife ( yes, she made a bad decision to betray you) - it is the OM. You need to get back in the game and when you take your three-point stance you need to continue to go after this OM. You also need to continue to insist on the conditions to recover your marriage - i.e., the no-contact letter as well as not further contact as you monitor it, transparency, further exposure if contact continues, and relocation for you and your family. IF you choose to recover your marriage by using these steps, I feel you will need some coaching from Dr. Harley. I think also that you will need to make monthly evaluations as you go.

I think it would be good if Dr. Harley commented on tis as well.

Good luck and prayers,
Tom

**edit**

moderator's note: stop disrupting this thread by chastising other posters. If you have something to add, then add it, but don't pick fights with the other contributors.

Yes,
Please no more fighting and anger on my account. I've caused and endured enough of that in the last three months. I'm sorry to have been the source of such controversy here.

For what it's worth, I was working Plan A for the first few months. The primary issue I am having is that most of my wife's requests have been making Plan A more difficult. Much of my abandonment of the plan is by her request. She does not want UA time out of the home. She does not want me to show her affection, and she is not comfortable with intimacy.

Most of my attempts to do these things are met with awkwardness and requests to back off.

I've therefore had to strip down plan A to some more remedial parts to comply with my wife's requests. Watching TV with her, spending time with our daughter, and backing off when she needs space.

This is my struggle. I feel I cannot properly work plan A because my wife doesn't want to be loved, at least not by me.

EH

Eddie, if you customize the plans yourself I can pretty much guarantee you are going to lose your marriage.

Why don't you talk to Dr. Harley and find out if this is a good idea?

Eddie, did you listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show for Wednesday?

There is a wealth of information in the show for men with a wife like yours. I know because I had a wife like yours, and I learned how to save my marriage by listening to the show day in and day out for years.

You do not understand Plan A, and you haven't been in Plan A all this time.

Of course your wife doesn't want to be loved by you. She's a WW. That's typical. You're not the first BH who has a reluctant WW.

Plan A is designed to show her what she COULD have with you. It's designed to pursue her and woo her. It's designed to make you look like a more desirable man than the OM. You haven't been doing that.

EddieHead, I am not an ideal person to give you suggestions, but I had some questions, and maybe some comments.

You mention you were working on PLAN A for the first few months, but then from your posts, I get the idea you remained in LIMBO, because of your wife's requests. But in essence, there is part of you that wants PLAN A.

1) Which of your wife's requests are making PLAN A difficult?

2) What personal approaches are you taking yourself to stay mentally strong?

Maybe someone can correct me if I am wrong, but PLAN A's purpose if for her to see you in your maximum potential. Maybe mentally pretend you are doing it for the person you remember she was,and try not to think of who she is now for now. Maybe, one day as she gets home she finds lots of balloons in the house... balloons just make people happy, most at least. My BH hated me, literally, after he knew I had cheated, and balloons were the only thing that made him smile and actually talk nice to me for a little while, so I probably overused that technique, and it worked each time. Then, maybe you can buy flowers and just lay it on her side of the bed, without saying anything, and hide a nice letter in her purse about a good memory of when you just met, or get off work early and set candles in the house, and try to make a list of things, without feeling them, without thinking, just reminding yourself it is not for the outer WW, but actually for that inner person you once met. Maybe, try to get something planned ahead for each day that is really out of the ordinary, without having to feel it much, until you can make up your mind if you want to do PLAN A or PLAN B.

And also, is there anything you can do to trigger her to re-think about when you just met? Was there a song, a poem, a place, something that can trigger her to the past of when you both met, which you can find elements to add during your PLAN A?

Then what specifically is Plan A? My understanding is that is is cultivating 15-20 hours per week of undivided attention time outside the home, on actual dates one on one with my spouse. Not shopping, not in the home, not with my daughter or with friends. She does not want to spend that much time alone with me away from the home. She told me to back off when I tried. She does not want to spend that much of her free time away from our daughter. I spent two months investigating and fighting off OM and trying to take her out places she wanted to go and do things she wanted to do. Most times, she would reclutantly agree or flat out say she wasn't interested. When we did go out, getting her to talk to me about anything pleasant was very difficult, even though I focused on topics she would like to discuss. I left her tokens of my appreciation (flowers, cards, etc.). I complimented her as a beautiful and sexy woman and a strong loving mother all the time. I hugged her, kissed her and told her I loved her every day, even though none of that was returned. I addressed every single one of her requests for change. I discussed pleasant plans for the future. Vacations, our daughter, improvements to our home.

I did that until I caught her meeting him again a few weeks ago. That event made me stop and rethink whether or not I wanted to stay married to her.

Tell me, please What am I missing on Plan A, because I thought I was doing it?

EH

You are confusing Plan A with Recovery. What you have described is Recovery, and you likely will not be there for quite some time.

I shudder to think of where we would be if markos backed off every time I told him to. I told him that a LOT, and in as nasty a way I could to get him to leave me alone. He did not back off, which was very irritating to me, but it saved our marriage.

Plan A is meeting her emotional needs without ANY lovebusters on your part. It is actively pursuing her. She WILL brush you off, and she may even lovebust you in return, but you do not back off from meeting her emotional needs. Show her what you can do for her.

Invite her on a date. She will brush you off. So invite her tomorrow.
Write her love notes. She will just throw them away. So write her more tomorrow.
Kiss her hand. She will glare at you. Kiss her again tomorrow.

Those are just suggestions ... the real point is to NOT BACK OFF. Keep doing the things you know she used to like. She will not respond for awhile, but chances are she will a few months down the road.

Markos did a Plan A, and he is asking you some very pertinent questions. I would listen to him and answer his questions if I were you.

Well that makes sense now, and explains my frustration. I had been told on this thread early on that 15-20 hrs of UA time should be my focus, and had assumed that was effectively plan A.

I have also read Surviving an Affair, but still I confused Plan A with recovery. I will read it again.

This seems a bit more realistic, though not necessarily any easier, but that's OK. At least I won't feel like I'm failing if I don't meet some minimum hourly attention requirement every week.

Also, it's a bit of a different approach, which will be refreshing to me. It also means that our situation may actually be improving at a normal pace. We do go out alone about once a week, and we do spend plenty of pleasant time together at home and with our daughter. Now that I don't feel like only one-on-one UA time counts towards recovery, I actually feel like I have already and can make appreciable progress moveing forward.

Thank you Prisca, for clarifying. I should have asked sooner. While my efforts to this point have had some value, I probably could have saved myself considerable grief and frustration had I been clear on what exactly I was supposed to be doing, and what my expectations should be.

EH

You wouldn't be in Plan A if you had a receptive wife. Plan A is for the snarling, demonic phase.

If you're offering her good dates, affection, if you're available for conversation, if you're always casting a kindly, husbandly 'how can I help?' demeanour, then that's a successful Plan A.

No matter how many times she says no, she can't deny what's on offer.

That's a good Plan A. Pitching a good offer - and a good salesman knows how to successfully accept someone's right to say no and yet sticks around to be of help if possible.

Plan A also means keeping important problems on the front burner, like the fact that you can't recover if you don't move.

So, about once a week (ask Dr. Harley how often), mention to your wife that you can't recover if the two of you don't move away.

Eddie, you haven't replied to my questions - have you read my posts?

I have read them.


I did not. Most days I have to listen when away from the computer. I am having trouble with the iphone app. It's only allowing me to access one show per day and that show is several months old. Any thoughts on that?


No, but I intend to. What is the best way to do so? Should I send an email, and if so, to what address? Is there a phone number to call? The coaching center web page lists Steven Harley, not Dr. Willard Harley, so I wasn't sure if that was the appropriate starting point.


I will ask him, but I am going to work Plan A while I am deciding. It makes the most sense to do so. It is difficult to do since I am struggling to decide what path I want to choose, but I'll admit we are both at least marginally happier when I am trying to meet her needs, and that is better than nothing.

WW has also done a few things to convince me to keep trying. She has suggested a friendly competition It involves picking the winners and watching the remaining college basketball tournament games together, something she enjoys and knows I love. The loser of the competition has to plan a date night. Challenge accepted .

She also wants to have a lunch date tomorrow afternoon without the baby. All I had to do was find the babysitter. My sister couldn't have been happier to oblige and spend some one-on-one time with her niece.

These efforts by WW caught me by surprise, pleasantly of course. It meant a lot that she came to me with these ideas. It showed real thoughtfulness and effort, and a desire to meet some of my emotional needs.

It would be foolish to not recommit to Plan A, especially now that I know I had Plan A confused with recovery all this time.

WW and I had a discussion late last night and the topic of trust came up. She still does not trust me on a number of issues, not the least of which our financial situation. I said total transparency is something we absolutely need, and I have never been opposed to it. I suggested we do some research on how couples in our situation re-establish trust and build an environment of complete honesty. She agreed we should do that. I suggested some of the concepts outlined in Surviving an Affair, but I didn't push it because it was late at night. I plan to ask her to read Surviving an Affair with me this weekend, since I am going to re-read it anyway. I'm hopeful she will be receptive this time, because it contains solutions to many of her concerns. If she is reluctant, then at least she has agreed to sit down and work through an agreement whereby I can introduce some of those concepts.

I asked her what else I can do or change to begin to bring us closer together. She indicated that I need to let go of my anger in order for us to move on. She can sense it, even when I'm trying to suppress it, and it makes her reluctant to want to try to rebuild. I understood and agree 100%. I suggested again my desire to move would help with that. I said that our home is not only too close to OM, but contains many triggers that cause me pain and make it difficult to let go of that anger, resentment and sadness. She is still resisting and doesn't feel it's critical to our recovery. I will continue to bring it up at regular intervals and ask Dr. Harley for advice on that topic. In the meantime, she has agreed that it would be wise for us to replace a few things that I no longer want in the home which are particularly bothersome to me. Our bed and a couch on which I am aware that they were intimate will be gotten rid of. It's not a move, but it's a start.

EH

Eddie, the iPhone app will allow access to only the current show each day. The current show yesterday was a repeat.

Once today's show starts (in about 30 minutes from now) you should have access to a new show.

Contact Dr. Harley and his wife Joyce on the radio show, at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com

I see, so there isn't necessarily a new show each day. That's where I'm getting confused. For example, when I go the app right now it says "Date of current program: Monday Feb. 16, 2015"

So even though it aired yesterday, it didn't originally air yesterday.

Got it.

The daily radio show is live at noon Central time on weekdays. After the live program ends at 1:00 pm, the program data is updated on the server. If there was a "Best Of" repeat rather than a new live program, then the metadata from the server reflects that fact. Your app retrieves the currently-available radio program from the server when you press "Play". So long as you continue to listening to that program, you will not update automatically. You have to hit "Stop" to end the current session, and then "Play" to load the new one. This is actually a feature that allows you to finish the show you were already listening to rather than interrupting by pushing a new show before you are finished with the old one.

I spoke with Dr. Harley.

He told me withdrawal will likely last six months, and I'm only about a month in, so that's another five at least. He didn't really address the need to relocate, and just told me to stick with Plan A to the best of my ability.

As far as dealing with my frustration, resentment and need for affection, his only advice was to lower my expectations.

So, really nothing surprising. The message was "You're on your own to fix this for the foreseeable future, so just suck it up and make her happy while she continues to treat you as she did while she was having an affair".

Doesn't sound very appealing, but he's the expert, so I guess that's what I have to do.

We'll see how it goes.

EddieHead

Sucks to be you, now.

Six months from now I hope you will be singing a new tune. You are doing every thing to make the odds in your favor.

Were you on the radio show? If so, when?

Yes, Monday 4/6/15.

I didn't really get an opportunity to say much on air. I sort of expected that. Most of the discussion was off air, beforehand.

Eddie,

I just read your story, and I am impressed by your decisiveness and assertiveness in fighting this battle. So far you have taken the difficult steps necessary to combat the evils of infidelity. Plan A is only for the stout-hearted, but it is the best formula for success. In fact, everyone who does a strong Plan A wins the race. That doesn't mean they recover their marriage at all times, but it does mean that they gave their marriage their very best, and that is what is most important in the final analysis.

As Axe and others here have shared with you, you need to set a time limit on Plan A. Six months is about right in your situation. This will help you to focus like a laser and give it your very best. Even if you feel like you'd rather be divorced at this moment, giving your marriage your best shot will pay off. I guarantee it.

Also, your wife must write a no contact letter to her AP. I'd let internal affairs know that they met again, too. Recovery can't begin until the affair is dead as a doornail, and the no contact letter is the place to start.

Know that others who are here have experienced the overwhelming pain, anxiety, anger, and distress that you are currently going through. We have the battle scars, so our advice comes from not only knowledge of Dr. Harely's program, but our own experience carrying out his plan. All your hurts and your starving for love and affection will not last forever. You have to endure the process and give it time. Self-sacrifice is the name of the game for next 5 months. By that I mean give without receiving. As Dr. Harley said, make love bank deposits without expectation of reciprocation. ***EDIT***

Find out what her emotional needs are and meet them without being clingy or acting desperate. Take her to a date to Starbucks and see if she's willing to fill out Dr. Harley's emotional needs questionnaire. Here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4501_enq.html. Once that has been taken, start meeting her needs. You can't assume you know her needs. The questionnaire results may surprise you.

Also, do a get-away. Take the longest possible vacation you can alone with your wife. My wife and did a cruise and it was perfect because we didn't have to do any work. Dining and entertainment on a cruise are part of the package, and we had a room with a view. It was romantic and fun. We bonded again. I know that money is tight, but recovering your marriage will be the best financial investment you can make. So make it happen.

Try not to give into hopelessness. When I was in your position, I thought I had no chance of recovering my marriage. My wife declared her love for me dead forever. There was not even an ember left burning in her heart. Or so I thought. But thanks to Plan A, which took 14 long and hard months, we recovered our marriage. I didn't think it was possible. Not only did I think it would be impossible for her to love me again--and leave her multimillionaire AP who wanted to marry her--but I didn't think I could love her again after her affair. We absolutely hated each other. And yet, after things fell apart in affair land, the door that Plan A had left open, opened wider, and the hidden ember in her heart set ablaze. We reconnected and fully recovered our marriage. What a blessing for us and our family. I am so thankful I followed Dr. Harley's advice and that of the participants of this forum. If I knew then what I know now, I would have tried even harder in Plan A.

Good luck to you, Eddie. Fight the fight. Win the war.

I hope that the OP is as inspired by that post as I was. Thanks Justthe3ofUs.

Here's your show.

Radio Clip of EddieHead's Show
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4

Below are the notes I jotted down from a discussion I had with my wife yesterday. I came away feeling positive and that we'd accomplished something and laid groundwork for moving forward. I think I approached the difficult topics the right way, so I thought I'd share this with the forum for comment and so that at least it may help others in my sitation. There's a lot to process, so I broke it up into headings and sections. listed below are the primary results from our discussion should you want the "cliff notes" edition.

SHE FEELS WE ARE GETTING BETTER AND THAT THERE IS HOPE FOR RECOVERY

SHE IS AFRAID OF THE FINANCIAL REALITIES OF DIVORCE, BUT DOESN�T WANT THAT TO EFFECT HER DECISION TO STAY

SHE DOES NOT TRUST ME AND DOESN'T FEEL SHE EVER WILL COMPLETELY

I AM SUFFICENTLY CONVINCED THAT THE AFFAIR IS OVER

SHE IS STILL UNABLE TO LOVE ME, BUT SHE IS NOT SURE WHY, AND THAT WORRIES HER

SHE AGREED TO TAKE THE EMOTIONAL NEEDS QUESTIONNAIRE

SHE FEELS INFERIOR WHEN IT COMES TO INTELLIGENCE, STATUS, AND FAMILY


Discussion with WW 4/9/15
(3 months after discovery, 10 weeks after exposure, 4 weeks after her last known contact with OM)

SHE FEELS WE ARE GETTING BETTER AND THAT THERE IS HOPE FOR RECOVERY

When I asked how things were going, she said �fine�. When I asked her to elaborate, she said that means things have improved, and �fine� was better than �ok�.
When I asked her if she had any hope we can survive this, her answer was �I�m still here, aren�t I�. She also mentioned that she thought we could probably make it work in our current state and live together with some level of happiness. She said that many people stay together and are far less happy than we are currently. We both agreed though, that we would not do that. While we get along fine, we are not in love, and we both deserve to be. If we do not continue to improve in the coming months, we�d have to discuss ending our marriage.

SHE IS AFRAID OF A DIVORCE AND DOESN�T WANT THAT TO EFFECT HER DECISION TO STAY

I asked her if she was confident I was dedicated to rebuilding. She said the fact that I have already spoken to two lawyers but haven�t left yet was evidence enough. She said she feels she should also speak to a lawyer, but hasn�t yet because she�s afraid of what she will discover. She�s afraid she will not receive enough in child support to raise My daughter on her own, and that will compel her to stay with me for financial reasons instead of for love. She also feels that if we do divorce, it will get messy as we will fight each other for money and custody. She is also afraid she�d have to move back home because she wouldn�t be able to earn enough to live here, and that would not be good for My daughter. I reassured her that I will never deny my daughter any opportunity in life, no matter what it costs. However, I did not tell her that all of her concerns are completely accurate. If we divorce, I will do everything I can to get as much custody of My daughter as possible and pay her as little as the law will allow. If My daughter is to be dependent on me financially, then I will control how that money is allocated.

SHE DOES NOT TRUST ME

She does believe she can be completely honest with me without threat of consequence, though she still does not trust that I am not spying on her and watching her every move. She indicated that she�ll likely never believe otherwise. She also said she feels her need to give me regular status updates and daily plans is too one-sided, and that I should have to do it too. I agreed to start doing the exact same thing.


I AM SUFFICENTLY CONVINCED THAT THE AFFAIR IS OVER
I didn�t want to dwell on this topic, as we have discussed it at length many times, and I had other more important goals I wanted to accomplish, so didn�t ask too many questions. She answered an emphatic no to all questions regarding having any contact with OM or feeling compelled to contact him. There was no hesitation or waivering in her voice, nor did I get the sense that she was being dishonest. I also have no evidence or reason to suspect that it is continuing. She agreed that I had the right to know if they do come back into contact in any way and that she would be honest with me and tell me if that happened. I assured her that it would not result in the end of our marriage contact occurred again, but reiterated that there needs to be no contact forever if we are to recover. I am confident she is no longer seeking a relationship with him. I am reasonably confident there has been no in-person contact, and minimal, if any, other contact. I do believe her love for him is fading.

SHE IS STILL UNABLE TO LOVE ME, BUT SHE IS NOT SURE WHY, AND THAT WORRIES HER

I apologized for my recent bouts with anger, gave my reasons for them, and that I know they had to stop. She said that she had never seen me like that before, and that it did worry her. She was prepared to leave temporarily if they continued, but is no longer worried as she has seen no evidence of anger for a full week.

I also apologized for losing sight of the fact that she also dealing with her own internal struggles right now. What she said surprised me. She indicated that her primary struggle right now is with the fact that she is still unable to respond to me. She said that I am doing everything right. Cooking, cleaning, showing affection, caring for her and My daughter, leaving love notes, spending time with her but still giving her space and so on. Despite my efforts, none of it was resulting in her loving me more. She indicated that she didn�t know what this meant, and that she was worried that she will never be able to love me again. I told her that I had spoken to experienced professionals about this very issue, and they�ve all said that this is normal. It can take many months or even longer for her love to come back. She was comforted by that answer.

I think I was comforted by her admission. It seems to suggest to me that she wants to love me, but just can�t right now. Ultimately, I think that�s better than having to directly compete with her love of someone else, or her statements in prior months that she simply didn�t want me. This doesn�t mean that she ever will love me again, but I think it means she wants to love me at least acknowledges my efforts as the correct course of action.

I told her that I still loved her, and her exact response was �I know, and I think you�re crazy for that�.


SHE AGREED TO TAKE THE EMOTIONAL NEEDS QUESTIONAIRE
I told her that I know we aren�t ready for a recovery program or counseling, and that my next request wasn�t an attempt to initiate that. I said I felt one of our biggest problems is that we never really identified to one another what our real needs were from a spouse. I told her that I wanted to create the most comfortable, loving, and happy environment possible for her while we are working through this stage, so that I can meet her most important emotional needs. In order to maintain that environment, it would help me greatly if I knew what was most important to her from an emotional perspective.

I suggested Dr. Harley�s Emotional Needs Questionnaire, and she agreed to work on it this weekend. Also, I am not going to fill one out for her. I told her she didn�t need to worry about meeting my needs right now. At this time, I just want her focus to be on determining whether or not she can love me again. If she is able to do that, and eventually reciprocate, she�ll automatically start meeting the most important of my needs.

SHE FEELS INFERIOR WHEN IT COMES TO INTELLIGENCE, STATUS, AND FAMILY BACKGROUND

She said feels like an outsider with my family, which is very confusing to me because my family is very welcoming. She is never excluded from any event, and they all make an effort to engage and involve her. She says she often feels she is included just because she has to be, and that I and my family members spend money on her so that she will love us. She indicated that we are all accomplished successful professionals and very intelligent, and she feels intellectually and professionally inferior to us.

She feels she is looked down upon partly because she chose a career that would allow her the flexibility to have children at the expense of professional success, even though no one in my family has ever given her any real indication that they feel this way. That is because they don�t feel this way. She feels my family believes My daughter is smart and accomplished simply because she has my genetics, not because WW is a good mother. I didn�t say this to her, but that is completely ridiculous and unfounded. I did tell her calmly that it wasn�t true, and because of that I really didn�t know how to address those concerns.

This was mind boggling to me, and I have no idea how to remediate it. Yes, everyone in my family is smart and successful. My family is not judgmental, arrogant, or unpleasant. They loved WW from the moment she came into my life, invited her into our family with open arms, and have never said a harsh word against her. Even now after they are aware of the affair, they are loving to her. They give her gifts not to make her love them, but because they love her. I do the same for exactly the same reason. We are sharing our lives with her because she is family and we love her. There is no other motive. They all know she is a wonderful mother, as do I.

She admitted it�s probably all in her head, but it still bothers her greatly. Her family is very much the opposite of mine. My family lives 10-30 miles away. Hers lives 100+ miles away. My siblings and I are all very close, hers are not. My entire family text and talk to one another every day. My family has a group text thread so we can all communicate and share with one another. WW is included on that thread, but she clearly misinterprets some of what is said. We are not rich, but we all live comfortably. We did not come from money, but she seems to think we did. She kept telling me she did not grow up rich, but neither did I. I don�t think she knows how to react to a family as closely knit as mine is even after five years. I believe She very much feels she and her family are not up to par. I have never believed that, nor has anyone in my family, but I have no idea how to help WW realize that.

Wow that's an awful lot of attention you've given to irrelevant stuff. Irrelevant stuff being how she thinks and feels.

Until you get a written and signed NC letter you can consider the A still on. While the A is still on she has no thoughts and feelings.

The stuff about not trusting you not to spy her on her makes me think she still has a yen to contact her AP.

But ask her if she will write an NC letter, change her contact details and move home( where yeah you WILL spy on her). I think she'll say no at this point...

However you're doing great and if she's not actually hissing and spitting - enjoy it. Because she will be soon.

Well, so much for feeling like I've accomplished something. I guess I really just don't get it. I'm dealing with someone who already changed their contact info and won't move.

Eddie,

I think that Indie Girl is saying that until you ensure that contact is ended for life, your recovery isn't possible. And she's right about that.

If she wants to recover her marriage than the first and most important step is for her to end contact for life. She hasn't been able to do that. She keeps grabbing the crack pipe. Have you explained this to her? That is your first order of business. Everytime she sees him, she will be back to square one and any love bank deposits you make will be completely withdrawn.

Let her know that before you can recover she must end contact for life, and this includes her writing a no contact letter.

Here is sample:

"OM,
I want you to know that out of respect and love for my H and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk with you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that H did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay H for the pain I have caused him, I will do my best to become the wife he has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely,
Eddie's WW"

You must ensure that he receives the letter and that you witness it being sent off or delivered.


Once contact has ended, you then to spend quality UA time with her. As I wrote in an ealier post, go on a long get-away with her. Make it something fun and not stressful that will enable you to connect.

I'm glad that she agreed to take the emotional needs questionnaire. That will give her some things to work on.

Remember, first things first. Contact must be ended.

Will she write a NC Letter and change all her contact information?

We are not in recovery right now. UA time is not my focus. Plan A is my focus. Getting my wife to emerge from the fog is my focus.

She's already changed her contact information. We've discussed moving a number of times and she is unwilling. I confronted them both, in person, one month ago and we all discussed the importance to both of our families that this affair and all contact needed to end. They both gave me their word that there would be no further contact. Of course I didn't believe them, nor would I believe a piece of paper sent through the mail would prevent them from future contact either. There will always be ways for them to contact one another and a risk they will rekindle the affair, unless we move far away. She will not move, and since I have an 18 month old daughter with WW, I will not leave unless she agrees. End of story.

I have to work plan A and hope that they have both seen there is no real future for their relationship and have decided to rebuild their own families. Plan B is not an option for me, because my wife will not give up my daughter, and legally I cannot take my daughter away. If I leave without them, I risk the courts seeing it as abandonment in any custody proceedings. I cannot force WW to do anything unless I file for divorce. At that point I can start working on getting orders of protection for my daughter and cut off WW financially, but I don't want to do that. I want to save my marriage, and I have seen real signs, real actions on her part, that suggests she wants to do that as well.

I understand that the truth may be that this isn't over, but I have seen more evidence to the contrary.

I respect that there is a step by step process to this recovery, but right now my wife is not a willing participant in any process.

Eddie

Exactly talking about the whys of the affair or how she is feeling is a waste of time and has her focus on the negatives of the marriage.

Work on positives such as getting the questionnaire done, plan A'ing, quietly verifying NC.

Eddie,

One of the things Dr H posted to me on my thread was that demands don't work in marriage, so your current course of perseverance without demands is not a bad one. As was stated previously recover is 2 years minimum.

You do have some things many betrayed spouses never get btw, one being that you mentioned getting full details from emails, this is something I will likely never get from my W and something my W has stated she will never give me.

Dr H post

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2831814&page=53

Gamma

Eddie,

Spending the 15-25 hours of UA Time together Each Week is the essence of Plan A.

By the way, the responses your WW gave to you, although you seem to take them as hopeful, are THE EXACT phrases my WW gave to me.

You are so grateful to see kernels of hope, but it reminds me Too Much of my WW.

LTL

Not at all, I think you're doing great. But it's a marathon, not a sprint and you can't place such close attention on what she says. That will drive you totally nuts because it's all nonsense.

Oh I'm not saying ignore her - say soothing things and nod when she talks. Just don't absorb any crazy yourself.




Nobody's suggesting you Plan B! Keep on at your Plan A - it really is going very well.



See this is why I think you're in danger of burning out. There's nothing YOU can do to get her out of the fog. Any more than your being nice and reasonable could sober her up from drunkenness.

It will happen on its own timescale. You have to just keep pace with it, treat the fog as a given, and wait for the opportunity to arise when you can implement NC properly.

You're doing very well in relation to her, just keep in mind that Plan A is about self care, and pacing yourself too.

Fog:



Gems. The one about not trusting you to look the other way while she has affairs is a doozy. She would not mention, or fear, spying unless she still planned on hiding things from you. Particularly since you never found out how they were communicating and meeting up. I think they are still in some contact, based on this red flag.

I think he's probably reduced her expectations a great deal - told her his family comes first and she plans to exist on crumbs of contact with him and see if she can get you to agree to a roommate type deal.

It could be just withdrawal. The environment may be keeping her triggered. But I don't think so. If you could uncover and squish their method of communication it would benefit the defogging process much more than anything you could say to her.

Recent bouts of anger? Please tell us you are NEVER angry!




Wrong way round. It's continuing unless you have evidence it's NOT. It is an addiction! Don't even get me started on the truthful voice thing. Waywards can weep in genuine remorse before resuming their A.

But the best piece of advice I can give you is don't have long drawn out relationship conversations with your wife. It serves no purpose. I know you are looking for hope but you are scratching the itch instead of applying the medicine.

Joke or flirt with her. Let her talk while you say soothing, admiring things. Ask her about her job or an interest or a topic she finds interesting. That's Plan A. Meet needs with NO expectations.

What you are doing is asking her to predict the future as to when she'll love you and whether she will try to love you.

Yeah she will, but this conversation hasn't helped.

That isn't what you did to woo her first time round is it?

This I think is the non foggy part of her speech and does show the success of your Plan A. So what else is in store for Plan A?

So how did this turn out, who won the competition and who planned the date?

She won, on a tiebreaker. I'm taking her golfing (another "winner plans the next date" setup) and then to a popular country music bar/grill she's always wanted to visit. I also have several other dates planned that she's agreed too. A play, mini-golf/batting cages, dinner at her favorite restaurant from our honeymoon. I've given up my weekly golf league so that we can golf together instead on that day. We also start playing softball together in a few weeks.


She told me she's been thinking we should take a weekend away soon, but she's just not ready to leave our daughter for an entire weekend, and is still a little apprehensive that it will be uncomfortable. I said we should do it, and just not have any expectations other than to have a relaxing and enjoyable time. I hope she decides soon that it's a good idea.

Other than that, I just continue to compliment and admire her every day, be available to her when we are at home, leave love notes and small tokens of my affection regularly, and engage her in pleasant conversation listening more than talking, whenever I can.

It's difficult to keep this up, but I am finding ways to succeed at it. It is most difficult when I am not around her or alone and have time to think. A significant part of me is still furious with my decision to save this marriage, and I am still regularly haunted by mental images of the two of them together. I am battling myself right now, more than anything else.

Eddie

Sounds like you are making progress and it sounds like she is responding so keep up the good work.

I think you hit the key thing with �I am battling myself right now, more than anything else.�. Win that battle my friend and you win this race. Instead of being furious about your decision to save the marriage you should be proud of it, embrace it. It would have been easy to walk away and instead you choose the harder and more rewarding path. I too struggled with mental images of my wife with the OM, but every time they crept into my brain I replaced them with a recent happy image of me and wife together. Keep your focus on the here and now and not the past, that is what has helped me push those thoughts from my brain.

I have no comparable recent happy images of my wife to replace the images of her and OM. The woman won't even hold my hand. These images used to sadden me. The anti depressants have helped with sadness, but not with anger. Now, they infuriate me. I've never been an angry or violent person, but I find that when I am alone I am frequently very angry.

This plan seems to have plenty of solutions to help the offending spouse heal, but absolutely nothing for the betrayed spouse to heal or cope, except "sucks to be you, deal with it and make her happy even if she doesn't want you to".

I grow weary of that answer, and the incredibly slow pace of this progress. Every day I question why I bother trying to love someone who doesn't want my love. I feel like I'm doing Plan A because I'm supposed to, not because I want to.

It's a frustrating and unhappy life I am living right now. I don't much care for it.

Eddy.

You have a long hard road. Yes you are in a pride swallowing, kick in the gut everyday time in your life.

There are limits to what anyone can put up with, but you are still in very early phases.

Keep your head in the game for awhile longer.

I will. I know this is the right road. The angry road will not lead to any long term gratification. This road may not either, but at least there is a chance it will.

I question whether I would be choosing this route if we didn't have a young daughter, but I guess that question is purely rhetorical, because we do.

Actually, this plan does offer hope for the betrayed spouse. Either you will enter recovery, in which case your WW will give you just compensation for her betrayal, or you will move on to a personal recovery. Either way, you will be happier in the end.

You are free to end Plan A and divorce her right now if that is what you want to do. But if you want to recover your marriage to something better than it ever was, this is the plan that works.

You might want to see your doctor about having them adjusted. They should help to even out the emotional highs and lows.

Eddie, have you re-listened to your radio show since you were on? I would suggest re-listening to it on a daily basis. Are you also listening to the daily show broadcasts?

It gets better when your wife is in love with you. What are her top five emotional needs?

Listen to this again, and tell your doctor you are still struggling with strong emotions (anger). See about having your antidepressant adjusted.

Marcos,
I like your recommendation to listen to this every day. It has helped to remind me that there is not supposed to be much progress right now.

She hasn't filled out the worksheet yet, unfortunately. That has been another point of disappointment and frustration. I should have expected it considering her lack of desire to participate in recovery. I will ask her again if she will work on it, or at least just review the list of emotional needs and identify those most important to her.

This is an exceedingly difficult process, but I've got to keep finding the strength to persevere, in spite of my personal struggle with the process.

Eddy

Can I ask, is it typical for me as the BH to question so strongly my motivation for trying to save my marriage?

I presume most people who are in Plan A doing so because they really want to save their marriage, not because they just don't want to get divorced yet.

Is there such a thing as a fog for the betrayed spouse as well?

Is this just a sort of PTSD I'm going through?

Is this a phase, or is it the beginning of the end?

Where does that leave me, walking the path towards recovery and not knowing if recovery is what I want?

I don't at all like my state right now. It's really unfortunate I'm feeling this way, given how hard I worked to end this affair and how much anguish I endured to get to a state where I could even begin to work on rebuilding my marriage.

I'm just being honest here, but I really don't think I'm in love my wife anymore. She's even showing signs of coming around, but it doesn't much matter to me right now.

I'm still doing and saying all the right things for Plan A, but my heart is not in it to the degree that I believe it should be.

What does all this mean?

Eddie

I think it means you're human. You probably won't have those feelings until she enthusiastically meets your needs like she used to. I think Jon in SAA was where you are emotionally when Sue finally came around.

I sent the same post as an email to Dr. Harley, they are going to discuss it on today's show.

This is a normal feeling. You are not obligated to stay married down the road if you choose not to. Plan A helps to give BS time to make decisions after careful consideration vs in haste when crazed with emotions right after Dday.

You may feel better if WW steps up and provides Just Compensation. But there is also nothing wrong if later you decided you no longer want to stay in the marriage. Some people can't live with it. Healing takes time regardless.

Here it is.

Radio Clip of EddieHead's E-mail

I discovered more text communications between the two of them yesterday. I confronted WW and she admitted to it. I told OMW, and she confronted OM. OMW indicated to me that she is filing for divorce. We'll see. Or maybe I won't see. I don't really care what they do.

I'm done with Plan A. WW is a weak, selfish person who is incapable of reason or compassion. To continue to maintain contact with OM while she sees how hard I have been working to rebuild our love is despicable.

I have done nothing but try and create a comfortable, loving environment for her to heal. I have sought counseling and taken antidepressants. I have done everything she asked, and much that she didn't. I've worked very hard, endured absolute hell, and have bitten my tongue countless times while she sat by and did nothing to save this marriage.

I have no more patience for this woman. I need to protect my rights to my daughter, so I can show her that at least one of her parents is a good role model.

WW says shes willing to work on things now, but I see that it won't help. I also don't believe her. She'll never end contact with OM as long as she's got a comfortable life at home with me. I don't see how I can agree to that now.

I've been a fool, but I am stronger for it. They can have each other. They'll both be homeless soon enough anyway. Perhaps they can reserve that hotel room they frequented on so many afternoons.

Thank you all for your advice. I really do appreciate your direction and willingness to help. I only wish it had worked out differently.

Eddie

How is she willing to "work on things now"? Is she willing to do everything on Dr H's list of requirements for recovery?

She could stop the temptation to text by giving up her phone, and maybe her job, and you might have to move house, too. Most waywards keep in contact behind the BS's back, even when there is no real chance of them being together forever because one of them won't leave the marriage. My own H did that, for 5 years beyond D Day. It took his retirement from work altogether to cut off the avenue of contact, which was the workplace.

You could work on NC if you wanted to give this another try, but if you're certain of your decision, you won't want to explore that.

Eddie,

Really sorry to hear that, but it�s a bit like finding an alcoholic in a bar, we don�t want them there, but we know it is always a possibility. This is why moving away is so important.

I don�t know if this helps, but I�ve observed on this forum and with some of the people I know that an affair with an authority figure, teachers coaches minister cops who occupy a position of trust is really bad and take longer to recover from.

Gamma

yeah. I believe its because this guy

Yeah. I believe part of it is because OM feels he's above the law. He feels he's invincible because he is a cop. Apparently that applies to the laws of life as well, as he sees it anyway. Maybe WW is attracted to that. I am certainly not that way. I have tend to "follow the rules" more often than not, because I gravitate towards order rather than chaos.

for what its worth, I did suggest moving several times, but she never agreed. she agrees now, but I don't think I'll bother with saving this anymore.

At any rate, in the long run I think I will come out on top. I'm disappointed, but I'm not sad. Maybe that's the antidepressants, but I think there's some liberation in all this as well.

Sorry to read that Eddie. I am not surprised but it sucks.

Have you exposed this latest break in NC to friends and family?

I exposed to OMW and my family. I have been advised against further re-exposure for now by my lawyer since it may work against me in matters of custody. As sad as it sounds, courts in my state don't consider infidelity in custody cases, and they usually side heavily in favor of the mother. If I am to gain custody, I have to keep an absolutely pristine image, and that means no FB posts, mass phone calls/mailings, or anything else that may be able to be used to paint me as someone with character flaws.

its unfortunate, because I had a FB friends list all read to go, but I suppose if it didn't work last time, it's not going to do any good this time either.

There will be plenty of time for the world to learn of this after divorce proceedings are complete

I was not suggesting an fb or mass exposure...I meant exposure to immediate family and possibly close friends that are in your support network.

Nothing to her family? If D is filed they will find out so you may want to consider calling them to let them know if that is your plan.

ETA: And it leaves no room for her to spin some other story about the reason.

Ahh...yeah that makes sense. I wasn't thinking about her family. I agree I should do that.

EH,

I was really rooting for you guys to make it, so sorry to hear of this turn of events. Stay strong and keep checking in here as I am sure the vets will help you navigate this no matter what direction it takes.

The first step on recovery is No Contact.
Unfortunately you never made It that far.
I also divorced my wife when she refused to end her affair and got custody of my kids.
Hopefully you will at least get 50-50

Eddie,

At this point, it would be good for you and your daughter if you went into Plan B. I highly recommend it. It will save you and your sanity.

In terms of custody, if she continues in her affair, chances are that she will try to keep spending a considerable amount of time with him, so you will start establishing a "status quo" on custody that involves you being the primary parent. Wayward spouses are so caught up in what they are doing that they are not very good parents. I am rooting for you on that one. Your daughter needs her devoted father.

Dr. Harley would probably recommend Plan A.
Besides, Plan B is a specific plan to save a marriage. If he is not intent on saving the marriage there is no point in him doing it.
If she lives in the house he will be unable to get her to move out anyway and under no circumstances should he leave his home.

Sir,

You do understand that you should not leave your home dont you?

You did not acknowledge my post, but I would just reiterate what I said: she has apparently agreed to end contact now. She is not refusing to end her affair. In fact, you wrote this yesterday:

She appears to be recognising the futility of her affair, and seems to be willing to give it up, just at the point when you have had more than enough. That is fair enough, but you will have to accept seeing less of your daughter in the future, and you will have to accept another man in her (your daughter's) life at some point in the future. It won't be that cop, because that relationship is too insane for them even to try and make it permanent, but it will be someone else, someday.

That seems a shame to me, when your wife is now saying that she will stop the affair. She is as addicted to her OM as anyone in an affair, but she is not some special kind of evil wayward who will follow a dangerous, violent, drug-addicted felon even if it means losing her own child. You can get her to work on NC and recovery, and you can keep other men away from your daughter's life now. In my opinion, it's a shame to throw that chance away.

Looks like Plan A worked. I'm at a loss why you went through all that only to give up now.

I didn't suggest that he should leave--just go into Plan B if he is not going to save it. She should leave. Although, you are right that he cannot make her. Plan B is not only a marriage-saving strategy. It also protects the betrayed spouse from further abuse. Repeated D-days are traumatic

But again, it depends on what he wants to do.

Plan B is a specific plan used to save a marriage from an affair.
it does this by preserving the love bank balance and protecting the health of the betrayed spouse.
However, there is no way this poster can do Plan B at this point.
If he doesnt want to save the marriage there is no point in Plan B anyway.
Plan A and Plan B are used to save marriages.

No contact after divorce helps recovery but is not Plan B

Also in Plan A or B the husband should not ask the cheating wife to leave the home.

When I consulted my lawyer she said it was a "horrible idea" to expose my wife's affair to my kids (Even though they pretty much had a front row seats to all the phone conversations that were going on). Has anyone really been burned in a divorce because they exposed an affair to save the marriage?

SpacemanSpiff,

You wrote, When I consulted my lawyer she said it was a "horrible idea" to expose my wife's affair to my kids (Even though they pretty much had a front row seats to all the phone conversations that were going on

Growing up nearly every other child who had parents in an affair knew something was very wrong in their families, often they had seen something or heard something. In my Ws case she caught her father and he promised to do things for her as a bribe. Of course that was just another lie.

This lawyer is looking out for your legal well being perhaps, but is thinking nothing for your childrens' mental health which is much more important.

Be glad Doctors, Teachers, EMTs and other useful professionals don't have to go to law school first.

Gamma

Has anyone ever really being "penalized" in the custody arrangement because they exposed the affair that caused the divorce?

SpacemanSpiff,

Everyone who does not expose to their children is penalized by having to lie to their children for the rest of their lives.

Gamma

My kids thanked me for telling them the truth, my youngest knew something was very wrong already. They were pre-teen and early teens.

No penalty for me, the penalty is with the my ex (relationship with the kids is almost nothing). So in a way it hurt the kids, but that is because my ex refuses to accept responsibility and continues the lies.

Thank you all for your comments.

I've been busy figuring this all out for the last few days. I'll comment further later tonight or Monday. I could use the opinion and the advice of folks on this forum as it pertains things that have happened since my last post.

I'll update you all soon

Eddie

It is a horrible idea to lie to your children about the source of tension in their home. Lying to them leaves them vulnerable to the fallout of the affair and teaches them that dishonesty is sometimes acceptable. It just causes them great confusion and leaves them ill prepared for the crisis that has hit their family.

A lawyers sole goal is to facilitate an amicable divorce. They want you to make their job as easy as possible. Keep in mind that a lawyer cares nothing about your children and lying to them to placate an uncaring, callous lawyer is gross parental neglect. YOU are responsible for your children, not the lawyer. YOU answer for their well being, NOT the lawyer.

I have been here for 14 years and have NEVER seen any person "burned" for telling their children the truth. But I have seen children BURNED when their parents lied to them about what was happening in their own lives.

Dr. Harley on telling the children:

here



here

here

Not that I have ever heard of, but a marriage is much more likely to end in divorce if it is not exposed. I have seen many marriages fail over the years when they were not exposed. Affairs thrive on secrecy so when they are not exposed, they are more likely to lead to divorce.

It is the lawyers goal to facilitate an easy divorce, it is not to save a marriage or do what is best for the BS or the children. Our goal is to save the marriage and/or do the best thing for the welfare of the children. Even if a BS decides not to divorce, he should expose the affair. If that is not done, the WS will quietly integrate the OP into his life and the family members will be none the wiser. The result is that the BS will be facing the OP for years.

There are BHs on these forums who have SOLE custody - and wouldn't have it if they had not exposed.

Exposure requires a lawyer to actually DO something as opposed to sitting back, getting paid while you get squashed by a shameless wayward with a right to whatever she wants.

If the lawyer is talking about her experience - she will be thinking of things that aren't really exposure too. Its common for angry rants and raving to be directed at children in contentious divorces - but true exposure bears no resemblance to that.

Sometimes angry ranting is done by betrayed spouses, but more often than not a wayward will say all kinds of damaging untrue things to the kids - like the BH is abusive or she is scared of letting him have the kids. Courts won't tolerate mud slinging, brain washing and lies.

Exposure is totally different and entirely outside of a lawyer's field of experience. It is respectful, it is honest and it is asking for people's help to save the marriage. The children are encouraged to be respectful to the wayward parent - and indeed to talk to them about what's going on.

It isn't illegal to tell anyone the truth in a calm and respectful way. It's also a vital protection for the children to know what's going on given how often mum's loser boyfriend is the child molestor in abuse figures.

BS's can always say they have the backing of a clinical psychologist for this course of action - but it honestly isn't anyone's business what you do or do not tell your children. You are their moral guide and protector in this world and in this confusion - they need calm, honest clarity.

Besides which, it is only responsible to find out WHAT they know or may have seen. Too many children bear the burden of a cheating parent's secret.

Sir,

I exposed to my children and was not penalized in any way. I have primary custody also.

Dr. Harley encourages exposure but its a choice you have to make.
If you dont expose you will be blamed by the kids for the divorce and they may end up having a relationship with OM never knowing he destroyed their home.

At the end of the day, it is the parent who stands before God and answers for his parenting. No lawyer, court bureaucrat, teacher, neighbor has to answer for your child's upbringing. A parent is responsible for taking bad advice from uncaring, uninvested bystanders who hold no responsibility for that child. No one else cares about your child as much as you. No one else is legally or morally responsible for your child, especially a lawyer who has never even met your child.

Lying to children about an affair is reckless and irresponsible, IMO. Children are not made happy or secure believing illusions about their lives. It just makes them confused, insecure, and ill prepared for life.

Sorry, but that is pisspoor parenting.

Regarding the exposure to my child, the argument is moot because she is only 18 months old.

Remember, I had already exposed this affair months ago. this would be a re-exposure.

I have a very good lawyer whom I trust and who cares very much for my situation. What my legal counsel was advising against was a re-exposure to OM and OMW friends and family via facebook, text, posting flyers around town, etc. etc. My lawyer understands that I would be doing this to protect my daughter, but it's no guarantee that the courts would interpret it as such.

The odds of me getting full custody are slim to begin with, since infidelity is not considered in the matter of custody.

They get worse if I do anything that could be spun as malicious or vengeful. I must keep a completely pristine image.

We are exploring options to apply pressure through his employer and union.

I hope we can put the exposure argument to rest. I've got some other questions that are more pertinent.

?????

It has been six days since I discovered they were still in contact. After careful discussion with my family, lawyer, and individual therapist, I have decided not to file for divorce yet and give my wife another chance.

We are four months since D-Day, so still less time that Dr. Harley recommends for Plan A.

I am very confused with WW words and actions over the last week. After four months of mostly resisting me love and affection, she seems to have made an almost complete turnaround. I'm not sure that's really possible, so I'm left a bit perplexed.

She claims to have realized how foolish she had been for letting OM drive her decision making, that everything she has always wanted is here with me, and that she has lost a year of her life with her friends, extended family, and most importantly, me and our daughter.

She claims she doesn't care what happens to him anymore. She says she had been holding on to a ridiculous fantasy that couldn't possibly amount to anything in the real world.

She says she's ready to begin rebuilding. She wants to take the required steps for NC, plan a vacation, is actively investigating relocation options, and wants to have regular dates with me and involve both of our extended families in regular activities with our daughter.

She is showing me affection and telling me she loves me again.

She wants to talk about having another child in the near future. Just two weeks ago she told me she wouldn't have another child with me.

It's incredibly difficult to know what, if any of this, to believe.

All of this came after I completely love busted her on Tuesday. When I found that they were still in contact, I lost it. Everything that had been festering in my mind came out. I was openly angry directly to her, and effectively called her a monster for what she had been doing to myself and our family. I left no stone unturned. At the time, I thought it was my chance for a final release of these emotions, and I took it. I didn't care what the outcome would be, because in my mind, my marriage was over. I later apologized to her, but said that I would continue to fight against OM's contact attempts until he left us alone or I got custody of our daughter.

So, I guess I want to know, is this dramatic of a turnaround typical, or even possible in a WS, or is this just another smokescreen meant to delay the end of our marriage?

Is she being driven by fear of divorce, the desire to have more children, or legitimately realizing that I have loved her through all of this and really am the person she should spend the rest of her life with?

I told her words are fine, but actions are the only way to prove her sincerity.

What do you all think of this, considering the exact opposite of Plan A is what seems to have triggered an apparent epiphany in WW?

Eddie

As you said, ACTIONS.
Is she willing to FULLY implement the EP list completely?

Actions must be verified over time, so you will have to be the watchdog.

It wouldn't be the first time a wayward did something like this to stall or put a betrayed back in line.

What you need to be prepare for is- what EXACTLY AND SPECIFICALLY are you going to do when she breaks any single EP?
Going cold turkey from the adultery partner like any addiction is really HARD.

You can measure her sincerity very easily.
Ask her to write a No Contact letter to OM (to be mailed by you) tonight and tell her you look forward to rebuilding a marriage with her.

You can easily find out if this is a ploy to get a favorable divorce or a sincere effort to save your marriage. Take her this checklist and see if she will agree to everything on it. If she won't do that, then you are right to plan to divorce:

From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.

These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.


Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.

I will emphasize what the others said, and that is that only actions count. Talk means nothing coming from a wayward.

I agree. I've struggled through nothing but talk for the last four months. I'm familiar with the checklist, as is she. shes already sent a no contact letter and changed her contact info once before and that didn't help. A big issue here is that he's a cop, and can very easily find her new information. Also, he's not exactly going out and changing his info, so even if her intentions are true initially, all she needs is one weak moment and she can get in touch with him.

Moving is really the best option in our situation, probably to another state. but that will take time. I have two homes which I would have to sell before I could come up with any sort of funds to relocate.

I'll keep pushing her for the no contact steps as just compensation for what I've had to deal with

We'll see if she's just blowing smoke. I'm not angry or sad anymore. I can absolutely live with the decision to divorce if she is not willing to take action.

Eddie

In that case, I would keep the divorce on track and *IF* she really demonstrates she is serious over a long period of time, you can drop it. That way you are protected if this is just a ploy to get you to back down on the divorce settlement.

If she follows the list above, then she is serious. Also, if she is serious than she should take additional steps, like no phone, no computer use, GPS tracker, she should send a letter to the Chief of Police, mayor/city manager, city councilmen, city attorney demanding no contact from the officer.
The point is if she is serious, she will stop at nothing to prove it. Anything would be ON THE TABLE, it is not to punish but to ensure accountability and rebuild the destroyed trust.
If she is not serious you will know soon, but you have to be paying very close attention.

I need help dealing with anger and resentment. I'm already on anti-depressants, and have been for months. They help, but they do not get rid of all emotion.

I cannot let go of the images of OM and WW together, the horrible things WW said about me to him, and the triggers that are everywhere. Not just at home, but everywhere. Every time I see a cop, every time anything remotely sexual or affair related comes up in a conversation, I'm filled with anger and resentment. It infuriates me and I'm sick of dealing with it.

There really is no escape for me.

My wife is trying to rebuild our family, but it's not enough. I'm still angry.

I love my wife and daughter. I really, truly do. I want to provide for them and for us to be happy together forever.

I keep my anger from WW, most of the time, but she can tell that I'm not happy and I still struggle with what they did to me.

I don't want tactics or mental exercises to deal with this. They don't work for me.I need the anger to go away, and I need it to go away now.

Eddie

So sorry, Eddie, but it is part of recovery. You just have to ride it out. As long as you and your wife are creating a happy marriage, this will alleviate in 10-12 months. If you don't create a happy marriage, it will get worse because your resentment will grow.


What do you mean by this? What will rebuild your marriage is for you to spend 20+ hours together giving each other undivided attention. Are you doing that? Are you following the program strictly? THAT is the key to peace of mind because when you are happy in the present, your mind does not tend to go to the past.

One thing that will help you immensely is to never speak or write of the affair.

I know you said you don't want mental exercises, but a really effective method is meditation. There was a radio show on that, maybe someone can link that to you.

I don't think anger and resentment can fade overnight, but the theory, at least to my understanding, is overtime the new loving memories will override the old ugly ones.

Best of Luck

I do not speak of or write of the affair, ever. We never talk about it. My wife is not doing anything currently to make me angry. Just the opposite, actually. we are spending far more than 20+ hours together. we go on dates, have family activities, and have fun together. but that isn't helping with the resentment.

this struggle is internal. I don't know how to rid myself of the anger I feel.

I exercise regularly. I'm in therapy. I've tried getting away for a few hours with friends now and then. None of it helps. In the end, I'm just angry. I've never been an angry person, so this isn't a pattern I'm accustomed to either.

I'm mentally exhausted, and I'm sure it's hampering our recovery.

I have considered meditation. I think that's probably a valid point and worth trying.

My life is just a complete emotional mess. I'm sure you all understand.

thank you for letting me vent a bit.

Eddie,

You will have to make that happen, just like I did, and just like everyone else who has been in your situation.

If you will listen to the advice here, people who have done it can show you how.

Venting actually increases your anger. It makes it harder to get the anger to go away.

You can't rid yourself of anger. It will fade in time. You have been through a traumatic shock that is right up there with rape and physical assault.


This will help.


Unless you are talking about the price of tea in China, this will not help. Going to "therapy" and talking about the affair will keep you angry and upset. It will make things WORSE. What are you talking about there?


Don't let it hamper your recovery. Your trauma is very fresh. You can't expect this go away overnight.

I do not discuss the affair in therapy. I discuss my struggles with anger, resentment, and trust and how to cope with them. My therapist understands completely that it is counter-productive to dredge up the details of the affair. Our goal is to help put me in the best state possible to effect change and recover my marriage.

Have you tried positive reinforcement? Get a journal and write down three or more loving memories of the day each day. It will reinforce the neuropath of those memories, both by writing them and reading them to yourself. I got that tip from my "positive psychology" session, which is way different than the old regular sessions I had about dealing with my personal down emotions, useless by the way, and actually this was about reinforcing my good emotions, and it is working good to keep my brain where I want it to be. If you want to deal with anger or resentment, go 180 and reinforce happy thoughts.

I don't disagree, but suppressing these feelings and letting them build up over time is no better. This is why I am asking how to rid myself of them. However, until I can make that happen, I need an effective outlet, and it absolutely has to be an outlet from which my wife and child can be sheltered.

I don't want anyone to see me angry. I don't want to burden anyone with these horrible feelings. Especially not my wife, even though she at the root of the cause. but burying them has not been an effective remedy either, so I need another solution.

Eddie, I really wish you would get active in learning what Dr. Harley recommends for this. He is an expert, after all. Even when I was seeing anger management therapists his materials were still better for me than what the professional anger management people had to say.

Eddie, you need to get a GSR meter, like Dr. Harley describes here:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8122_neg.html

But it's the same problem.

If you understand that talking about one type of abuse - an affair - is counterproductive, then surely you must see the same thing applies to anger.

Why do something dreadful and keep harping on about it?

The MB advice would be to not do, or talk about negative experiences. It keeps the mind set alive. It won't help in the slightest.

Have you tried proper anger management techniques and feedback devices?

I like it. I like it a lot. It was pretty unreasonable of me to say that I don't want to try mental exercises. They directly address the problem.

I complain about my wife letting emotion drive her actions instead of reason, and here I am doing the same thing. the resonable thing to do is train my brain to not be angry.

It's such a difficult road, this recovery. I really hope we can get there.

You can't afford to be angry while your W is in an affair, but you can't afford to avoid the real problem either - her affair.

Even if your anger were to disappear overnight the affair would still be there.

You have to be cool and calm and unapologetic while you dismantle it.

Interesting. I'd never heard of this. I will definitely research this further.

Thanks Markos. Thank you everyone, in fact. I've got some new tools to work with now.

I would advise to closely look at what Dr. Harley says about therapy and how his approach differs from many popular approaches to psychology.

You may find that a lot of what you are doing in therapy is incompatible with MB and counter productive to your personal recovery. You don't want to mix and match MB and other stuff. The veterans here can attest to that.

Eddie,
Dr. Harley recommends getting a GSR Meter and learning to relax in the face of frustration. This will help you immensely.

From here

You and me both, Eddie! Fortunately Dr. Harley finally got through to me.


You should hear the wonderful things Dr. Harley has to say about this on the radio. You will be so much more intelligent and creative and capable of solving difficult problems when your brain is trained. It worked for Dr. Harley, former angry guy. It worked for me. It can work for you.

Allowing yourself to have an outlet only reinforces the anger. Your anger will become more intense over time, and you will eventually start lashing out at your wife.

The idea that one must vent anger in some way is a myth. It will not kill you to keep it all inside. No one has exploded yet.

Do not allow yourself an outlet.

The key is to retrain your brain and how you react.

Ok, then stop talking about your anger and your resentment. I would focus on the price of tea in China, because it will be much more productive to your recovery.

As far as "trust," we can help you with that. Don't trust anything you can't see. Your wife should be so transparent that it will impossible for her to cheat. That will create trust. [along with some serious and sophisticated snooping]

Oh I missed the trust thing.

Please don't tell us the therapist is telling you to trust a cheating wife!

Do NOT trust her while some guy is trying to make her his. Phenomenally uncaring.

Yes she is less likely to be angry at you if you go hide in a therapists office, not interfering in the A - but you are needed in the real world right now.

EH,

It will take at least two years to recover, so accept that you are in the early stages. The fact that you know most of the details puts you in a position to eventually recover.

Has all the affair artifacts been thrown out, clothing she wore, gifts OM gave her, ticket stubs, your bed/couch if they were in it. Cars might need to be sold.

Gamma

Have you listened to these clips from Dr. Harley?

Dr. Harley on How to Deal with Triggers

I've been away from here for a while, but looking for some more direction. Lately I've been thinking I want to ask WW for a divorce. It's been 7 months since I discovered the affair, and over two since last known contact. Though I'll never really know for certain if they are still in contact or not, I have seen no evidence of any contact for the last two months, and neither has OMW. WW is still in the fog, but I really question how long I can wait for her to come out of it.

We are little more than friends and partners in parenting right now. We get along fine together, and care for each other's well being, but there's still no intimacy and very little physical affection. As a result, I can't help but I still harbor resentment for what WW and OM have done. The longer I wait without my wife's participation in a loving relationship, the more time I spend analyzing how we got to this point, and the more I am finding that this was almost entirely her fault. She solves her problems by running away, ignoring the issue, or finding the easiest solution for her personally. I see evidence in this with more that just the affair. This does not help me rid myself of said resentment. I really am guilty of nothing but working too much in order to provide the best life for my new family.

I do not believe she is capable of the work involved to maintain a long term loving relationship. She abandoned our emotional relationship and started an affair just months after our daughter's birth, because as she says "Marriage wasn't what she expected it to be." When I ask her what she expected it to be, she says she doesn't know. When I ask her what more I can do, or what I should be focusing on to make her happy, she says she can't tell me specifically. She uses the word "chemistry" all the time. To her, it's just a feeling, not a process, and I can't convince her otherwise.

I truly believe that she has no idea what makes her happy, she only knows whether or not she is happy at that particular moment. Right now, neither of us are happy. I'm willing to put in all the work necessary to salvage this marriage, but I'm not sure that it is salvageable because she doesn't feel that true love requires effort.

So, with all this in mind, I'm wondering if I shouldn't move on and try to find happiness with someone who has a more practical view of how to achieve and maintain happiness. We still at least care about each other right now, and like it or not, she will always be in my life, since we have a child together. But whatever love and respect I do have left for her is fading.

I'm rambling now, so I'll stop. I guess the short version of this post is, how do I know when it's time to throw in the towel? I'm not looking for a time frame here, I know Dr. Harley says 6-12 months, so I'm really already in the middle of that threshold. I'm looking for advice determining whether or not my wife is capable of doing the work necessary to recover, because I know that right now she's not willing to do it.

Eddie

Dr. Harley recommends 6 months to 2 years for men, but to reevaluate when necessary. If it goes past 2 years, there really isn't much more point in chasing a dream outcome.

You don't have to "Ask" your Wife for a divorce.

If you truly want one, you just have your attorney file the proper paperwork and have her served by the sherriff or service processor.

LTL

Sorry, ask was the wrong word. But I would still tell her face to face. It's clear to me now that it's more than just the affair. My wife is extremely selfish and immature emotionally, and I'm not sure that can be changed.

And you are extremely disrespectful.

Do not threaten divorce. If you're going to do it, just do it.

Eddie, I have been reading through your story and find many similarities with mine. I don't want to hijack your thread, but was wondering what kind of phone she had and what program you used to recover messages. My wife has/had an iphone and I was able to recover some fragments of deleted messages but not everything. Thanks.

She has an iphone. I convinced her to backup her phone to the computer and grabbed the data from there. There are any number of $20 apps that will read iphone backups. a google search will yield plenty of options. I also used a $100 gps device stashed away in her car to track her driving habits

Now, I just make her show me her phone, plus I monitor the phone bill text and data records for suspicious activity. I've also blocked facetime from my home wifi because they used that frequently, and confirm her schedule and travel destinations regulary. None of these will be able to fully prevent contact, but the goal is to make it as difficult as possible.

Just remember, step one is to end the affair, and make sure it's over. That will likely take time, and a lot of effort. Until that happens, you can't even begin to recover. Even afterwards, you may not. My marriage is likely over, even though my wife is starting to come around. but the process has led me to some realizations about my spouse that have changed my mind about her ability to commit.

It may seen like that means this plan failed, but it didn't. It was successful in helping me end the affair, and in realizing the kind of person my wife truly is. There is real value in that.

Keep listening to the people on this site. They may not always tell you what you want to hear, but their advice is usually valuable and correct, especially when it comes to the steps necessary to remove OM from your life.

Eddie

Eddie,

It seems you may not be in recovery.
How does your wife travel for work?
Are you spending 20 hours weekly on dates together?

I would never use the threat of divorce as a tool.

No. we are definitely not in recovery. She is still in the fog. She is still not interested in dates. She told me repeatedly to stop writing her love notes, complimenting her, and setting up dates. She says it pushes her away. All I'm doing right now is my best to make sure the affair is over, and letting her know I'm here if she needs me. All other attempts to show affection or interest in her are met with resistance by her.

This is pretty much exactly what Dr. Harley told me to do when I spoke and wrote to him, but I'm reaching the limits of my ability to wait around and do nothing without progress.

She simply doesn't want to be loved right now, at least not by me.

Eddie

Eddie,

Some people come to the decision to divorce and nobody here is going to tell you otherwise. I was in plan B for awhile and made the decision to divorce and am fine with it. I have no indication from him that he'd ever do what it took to recover the marriage. If you want to divorce then see a lawyer and start the process. It's usually very easy to just file. The starting paperwork is easy.

However, if you want to give it one last big push, perhaps go on a vacation with her alone for a few weeks. Something like a cruise where nobody can escape or have access to any outside communications. If that shows promise, I would really look into moving. It will remove triggers, change the conditions that led to the affair. This may help you feel safe.

But I would say, take action either way.

She won't move, which disappoints me. In fact, she won't agree to any of my requests if they result in her being inconvenienced, even if it's designed to help us recover. This is a big reason why I made the comments that Prisca identified as disrespectful. My statements may be disrespectful, but they are also based on observations of what drives her decision making. She cares far more about how SHE emerges from this ordeal than about how WE emerge from it. It is that selfish, self-centered mindset that I believe led her to consider straying as a valid option in the first place, and will ultimately keep us from recovering. This is why I am strongly considering divorce.

If my becoming aware of that behavior is disrespectful, than so be it.

Eddie,

She's had affairs on you! If that isn't the ultimate disrespect I don't know what is!
I'm not familiar with your case well, but as a general rule Harley would typically encourage a man in your position to try to meet as many of her emotional needs as possible while avoiding any "love busters." (including disrespectful judgements). So you can post her she is selfish, I already know she is. But you should never tell her she is selfish.

IF contact has ended between her and OM and the affair has died a natural death, the hope is that you will deposit enough love bank units to make her fall in love with you. After that, she will be willing to agree to MB programs and moving.

There's nothing strange with your WW here. She's behaving very typically.

If you want to divorce her, that's fine. But otherwise, you are going to have to end the disrespect. Yes, she's selfish. Yes, she's self-centered. That's typical, and it's behavior that can be changed.

There are reasons for abusive behavior such as disrespect, but there are no excuses. Learn to talk about the problem without the disrespect.

You have waffled on whether you want to divorce or recover since the beginning. You need to make the decision and put your full effort into it. Waffling back and forth is not good for either of you. If you want to divorce, get to a lawyer. If you want to recover, buckle down and do the work. But get out of limbo.

ALL are typical Waywards ways of thinking.

On one point I d out disagree with JK. You should NOT be posting you DJ's here.

That is, IF you still want to put effort into recovery.

When someone practices DJ's even on an anonymous forum, those attitudes translate into your Real Life. She WILL pick up on it.

LTL

I agree with the others...you should focus on eliminating lovebusting habits before you settle on divorce.

All of those things you've said may be true but as her husband they are for other people to worry about and not for you to sit in judgement of. You need to be focused on hearing her out and listening to her side of things rather than filling in those blanks yourself. You will INEVITABLY DJ her if you are drawing your own conclusions about her motivations. Her willingness to let you make lovebank deposits is going to continue to be nil if you are lovebusting her.

If you're going to divorce, it's certainly understandable but I would ensure you've made every effort to clean up your side of the street. Not necessarily just for her, but also so good marital habits are in place and practiced for your next relationship if that is how this ends up.

I always find it so puzzling when BSs go looking for disrespectful judgments. An affair is as disrespectful as it gets. So saying: "well sure it is, but I bet there is even MORE bad stuff hidden in their brain" is crazy. You aren't a mind reader and a WSs behaviour is there for the world to see. Stop poking around in her head - you will not find much during the course of an affair, which is a very single minded addiction.


Why on earth would a wayward spouse do any of that? Do you think she's actually processing this stuff and deciding that putting you through the mincer of an affair is A-OK but refusing to move out is a thoughtlessness too far?

This.

An affair can happen to anybody who lets another person meet their needs. They then become almost drunk on those needs and their entire being becomes geared towards staying drunk.

Sitting down and talking to the drunk, or expecting them to free or sober up themselves is nonsense.

You either abandon them to the consequences of their poor decision to fall down that slope, or you do the work to get them up, out and sober.

Whether you intend it to be or not 'asking' her for divorce is a lovebuster. Filing is a lovebuster too, but less of a one because you are not present and there is no back and forth - It inevitably ends up being a threat or insulting.

Besides if you're filing, you're presumably done and don't need to discuss it with her.

The indecision is mostly due to my 18 month old daughter. Divorce means I will not be with her every day, and my wife will likely have to move back home 100 miles away because she cannot afford to live in my area, even with my child support payments. If I did not have a child with my wife, I would have divorced her by now. I am 100% confident of that.

So because of this I am waiting, and I am trying my best to work plan A with a woman who is still deep in the fog and rejects plan A advances. The last known contact with OM was about a month ago, and that occurred even with my having access to everything of hers. If there is one positive, that contact was a string of messages of OM basically telling WW she was a worthless b**** who ruined his life and family, but that doesn't mean they haven't since reconciled. Their relationship was very fiery, and it ended and started up again several times, especially after I found out.

I really have taken the advice of this forum and done everything I can do to end this affair. All I can do now is wait and hope she realizes that I'm trying to save our family and not simply control her every move.

I'm searching for help with the waiting, the lack of trust, and the realization that I truly do not love my wife. I had been leaving love notes, planning dates, avoiding angry outbursts, trying to convince her we need to move, all of that. She told me to stop. She told me everything I do to show her love is an annoyance her right now. She told me to back off and that she wont live under my thumb. All of these requests just suggest that the affair is still ongoing, or is at major risk to start again with a simple phone call or text.

I'm not trying to control her. I'd been trying desperately to fix our marriage, but her complete rejection of every attempt of mine to do so has busted me far into the negative reaches of the love bank.

Honestly, It's all I can do just to be friendly to WW, and wait for her to decide whether or not she is capable of loving me again. The difference now from a few months ago is that I still loved her then. Now, I too have to decide if I can still love her again, and I'm not sure I can.

I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm complaining, or weak, or indecisive. I'm just struggling to hold on. It's been 7 months since I found out, and so very little has changed with WW. I have changed so many things about myself to become a better father, husband and person, and I really wasn't a bad one to begin with. WW has done very little, and I'm not sure she ever will.


Eddie

Markos Has a great thread in the 101 for about what to do with a withdrawn wife.

Eddie,

How sure are you that there is no contact?

I'm not sure, and I never will be. There is no way to completely prevent contact, aside from moving far enough away that contact becomes irrelevant. WW would rather end our marriage than move away.

no contact letters, changed phone numbers, monitored phone bills, shut down social media accounts, and submitting a full schedule of one's plans can all be circumvented. she's done these things, but she can have a burner phone or go-between contact that I'll never be able to find or prove.

I realize finally that I will never ever trust WW again, and I doubt I'll ever trust anyone enough to carry on the type of relationship that I can be comfortable with. I had always been a trusting person, often to a fault, but no more. Aside from my parents and siblings, I trust almost no one now.

Indiegirl is right, If WW could do this to me, then anyone can. I question everything, I investigate everything, with or without permission from WW. I search, I snoop, I sneak. I assume guilt instead of innocence. I feel like my goal is to catch WW again, not to verify she is being true. Even the slightest bit of circumstantial evidence is, in my current state of mistrust, proof the affair is still ongoing. It's illogical and unfair, to both myself and WW, but to this point I have been unable overcome it. This is no way to live. I absolutely despise how my personality and manner of thinking has been altered by this affair.

I don't want to act this way, but I do, for fear of being betrayed, disrespected and taken advantage of. A 15 minute delay in WW returning home from an errand isn't a traffic issue, it's a potential rendezvous with OM. I'll never be satisfied, because no matter what I do or how hard I try, there will never be 100% iron clad proof that they are not in contact. Eventually, I'll just drive WW away because she'll grow tired of being watched, feeling like she's being watched, or being wrongfully accused. In fact, that is already happening.

Unfortunately, WW considers my vigilance a invasion of privacy. It certainly is, but I feel it's justified. I require that vigilance in order to feel some level of safety, and she requires a certain degree of freedom in her life. She is of course entitled to that freedom, but I doubt I'll be able to give it to her and remain comfortable in our marriage.

Since we are so far apart on what we both need to heal, we are at an impasse. There is no trust on either side of this relationship. WW feels she's doing enough to prove the affair is over, and she is doing a lot, but I still can't overcome the fear and doubt.

I guess it really is all my fault that we haven't recovered, as many people here have insinuated, but how do you trust someone who has betrayed you so completely

Infidelity really does cause complete and total destruction.

Eddie

By following the program.

EddieHead,

I have read your thread with great interest and compassion. And I have been moved by your honesty, your genuine attempts to cope with the devastation caused by your WW's affair, and your devotion to your daughter.

Can you update us on your progress or lack thereof? Regardless of the results, I am with you in spirit.

Wished