I will try and keep it short.

I have been with my partner 8 years. We have 2 children together age 5 & 7. We were only together 6 months when I first fell pregnant. We were very happy together and life was good. I loved my life with him and we got on well. The relationship started to suffer a little after the 2nd child. He didn't cope very well with the lack of attention and sex. There was a few angry outbursts. Then I got very irritated with him because I felt un supported. He use to binge drink a lot at weekends and lie in bed all morning whilst I was up with the kids at night and then still going in the morning.

I think he would get moody if he didn't get enough sex, shut himself off and be cold towards me. Then by the time he snapped out of it I would be annoyed he had been like it in the first place. I started making lots of effort arranging nights out and weekends away and trying to make more effort to have regular sex. Things seemed to get better as long as I was making lots of effort. I must admit I found it tough giving him enough attention with a baby and a toddler, and I was pretty much doing it on my own. I feel like he needs a lot of attention and feel whatever I give him is never enough. When we do have periods of regular sex then he is like 2 different people.

Another issue is that he has never asked me to marry him. He did a half [censored] proposal when I was pregnant, and I always thought he would ask at some point, as we were very much in love, but it never happened. I have never really brought it up properly it until about a year ago. I asked him why he has never asked me - he told me 'Well you have spent about 5 years looking at me like you hate me and what are we going to do pretend we love each other walking up the aisle'.

That comment has really grated on me and I guess now I am thinking well if its that bad whats the point of being together at all? I also feel upset that all the hard work I did bringing up our children and thats all he has to say. Problem is, I love our family unit, I would be devastated if it broke down. I feel like I am rocking the boat when I bring it up. Sometimes I feel like separating because of it, but then I feel that i should remain in the situation mainly for the children and a lot of the time we are happy. Most of the time I will forget about it and then something will happen and I will think yes he doesn't want to marry you does he?

He seems committed in every other way. He hardly goes out with his friends he wants to be with me and the kids, he has me well set up financially with insurances and wills.

Welcome to MB. Is there any plan to get married at this point?

Hi BrainHurts

No plans to marry.

We have been together 8 years.

have only raised it about us getting married in the last year. He asked me very casually when i was first pregnant 7 years ago. I felt like he was asking me because i was pregnant.

He said you have spent the last 5 years hating me. Totally untrue. Do we get married pretending we are jn love? He said maybe in the future when we reconnect!

I just feel like they are all excuses.

Now i am left feeling if thats how he really feels whats the point of being together at all? Or suck up and get on with it.

However, if I am completely honest with myself there are problems in the relationship. So would it really be a wise decision to marry at all?

**EDIT**

OK not sure what happened there something got posted then taken off....:)

Hi is there anyone out there? I havent had any response to my post? Only one which was taken off.
Thank you

This situation is going to be super hard to turn around. That is why Brainy asked whether you had plans to marry. It sounds as if there are all kinds of problems in your relationship which is not really surprising as you initially got together because you were pregnant rather than choosing one another, getting married and then having children. Obviously you cannot go back and change the past but what you can do is decide not to continue to drift. Not only is that unhealthy for both of you but it is very harmful for your children who will grow up thinking that this is how relationships ought to be.

So you need to start by analysing the core problem which is that you are only semi committed to one another.

Is he still binge drinking or has that stopped? An addict always puts his drug of choice first so if he is an alcoholic that issue is going to prevent anything else being addressed.

Would you be able to update us on that first?

Hi Living_Well

Thank you for your post.

Yes I agree I feel like this situation is going to be super hard to turn around. In fact it is starting to feel like such a mess I am finding if difficult to explain it all in my head. My anxiety levels are starting to get really bad.

His binge drinking has stopped at the moment. He drinks heavily at weekends for about 2 or 3 weekends in a row and then feels terrible and completely stops drinking for about 3 - 5 months. He used to do it more when the children were small but now a lot less. When he is not drinking he is super healthy.

I know that we are only semi committed to each other and understand that marriage is completely different to the situation we are in. I have done a lot of reading on this site before I posted. I have read things like buyer, renter and freeloader. I have read about living together before marriage. I guess i have done it all wrong.

I feel like he is very committed in many ways not in others. He always wants us to be together as a family, never goes on boys nights or weekends away without me. All he seems to want us me and the kids. He books surprise family trips away for us, took us on a wonderful surprise trip to Lapland, surprised me with a lovely new car 2 weeks ago. In other ways I feel like he is not committed to me, not really interested in how i feel about things, prone to AO and DJs. I struggle though as I feel that I have neglected him and focused on the children too much.

Nothing is impossible


He is a dry drunk who periodically relapses. Until the alcoholism is addressed, nothing else is going to work. Would he agree to go to AA? He needs to address the demons that led him to his addiction in the first place otherwise he will simply replace this addiction with another.


Don't be too hard on yourself. You were always going to come a distant second to his first love; alcohol and your instincts told you that. Once you have addressed the alcoholism, you will be amazed at how much better things can be. But one step at a time, no sense in trying to repair your relationship until he no longer has a relationship with his first love.

Will he get help for his alcoholism? Have you thought about emailing Dr. Harley?

HI Living_Well

I think I have under estimated his problem with alchohol. I have been thinking a lot about this and past situations. I am really not sure how to raise this with him. I thought the right time would have been after his recent drinking bout 4 x nights in a row. He was very remorseful after that, and that would have been a good time to raise it and ask him about an AA program. His business partner has recently come out of a rehab clinic for alchohol issues. He is now no drinking for life, but he had a lot of therapy too. My partner actually said to me I am not alchoholic as I don't need drink all the time I can go for months without it. I need to think how I am going to do this, I need to find the right time otherwise he is going to blow up.

I am still a bit unsure how his binge drinking would affect our relationship this much.

I am finding the situation really sad, we are quite estranged at the moment. We spend the days together and as soon as the kids are in bed we do our own thing. I want to spend the time with him, but it is like he is avoiding me. He is sleeping in the spare room, he does this quite a lot. This is since our bust up last week when I asked him straight out why have you never asked me to marry you? How do you think that makes me feel? He told me that I had 'issues'. This makes it harder for me to raise AA.

This site is really helping me cope with this and make sense of what is going on. Thank you.

Hi BrainHurts

No I have not thought about emailing Dr Harley. What to say? Sorry still learning here.

Thank you, Reasonswhy

Emailing Dr Harley is an excellent idea. Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com You will go on the radio show. Let us know when you hear back and Brainy will send you the link from the archive so that you can listen more than once.

Your question should be something along the lines of 'how do I get my alcoholic boyfriend to agree to go to AA?' But you will need to give him some background on your situation. Dr Harley does not generally read these forums. Dr Harley was an addiction counsellor before he started Marriage Builders so he is perfectly placed to advise you. Best of luck and keep us updated.

Thank you guys.

So I have done what you said and written to Joyce on the email address you sent to me. I will keep you posted.

Until then, husband came home with cake for us all tonight. Then as soon as the kids gone to bed we are back to doing our own thing and sleeping in separate bedrooms.

Its all really bizarre. Its like he wants me but doesn't want me!!! I am feeling ok though.

Good night all.

Hi there

Just to let you know that I was on the radio show today. I was in the last 10 minutes and they called me 'Teresa'. I am thrilled that they responded so quickly.

I am quite shocked by Dr Harleys advice to me.

He basically said that in our situation he would recommend a separation. He said that the situation is very typical of unmarried couples who live together. He said he would recommend some time apart to reconnect and that to fall in love again and marry.

I have no idea what to think right now. NO idea how to go about this and feel if I were to separate I am about to throw my family away

I hate being away from him for a night let alone for months or for ever.

Why don’t you want to follow through with Dr. Harley’s advice?

Can you come up with a plan to separate?

Dr Harley is giving you the best possible advice to save your family. It may seem shocking now but you will look back on this and see how right he is.

Your problem is that you have convinced yourself that you have no alternative. Your boyfriend therefore has absolutely no incentive to change. One of the reasons why an affair can turn behaviour around is that it acts as a wake up call for both sides. Separating is your wake up.

Did he advise you to write a letter telling him that you love him but cannot continue like this?

Hi All

Been going through some real mixed emotions and spent the weekend taking in what has been said by Dr Harley.

I am still a bit blown away by it all and how its going to affect the children and I. Also if I am honest I am scared if boyfriend won't see it as a wake up call. This doesn't mean that I am not going to follow it through.

I am on the radio show with Dr Harley this week, so I can ask more questions.

On Friday my boyfriend surprised me and the children. He had purchased a family power boat so we could spend weekends away as a family on the water. On the boat he put his arm round me (his way of an olive branch) which I reciprocated. Then 30 minutes later he had another angry outburst at our son and I told him to stop and then he got angry at me. It ended up with me leaving the boat as I said I am gong to leave now as the children or I don't have to put up with angry outbursts. We spent the rest of the weekend distant and sleeping in separate bedrooms.

Reasons I think it’s very brave of you to get the information you need and make the difficult long term decisions you and your family need. Removing yourself and your kids from an angry outburst is an awesome way to show them they are worth protecting.

It is good that you are still bringing your questions to Dr. Harley. I can remember years ago when BrainHurts asked me if I planned to follow Dr. Harley’s advice. My reply was that I didn’t think one should ask for advice unless one is willing to seriously consider it.

Dr. Harley has the unique perspective of both being highly experienced in working with cases like your’s, and of being able to see past the emotional entanglements that pervade your problem. You are dealing with a situation with no guarantees, just varying probabilities of success and failure. You get the best odds for success if you follow Dr. Harley’s advice. Mind you, that successful outcome might not look so good in the short term, but you will end up better off in the end.

If you follow Dr. Harley's advice, it will result in a minimum amount of pain and the best odds for a healthy, happy future for you and your children. If your bf wants to be part of this future, he can, but not at all costs.

Hi There All

Thank you for your posts

The thing is with what Dr Harley has said about the separation is something that has been on my mind for awhile, but to hear it out loud from anyone especially an expert in this situation is quite hard hitting.

My boyfriend has been making 'efforts' to bring me out of withdrawal. I actually think he hasn't a clue what is going on with me. Usually it is me trying to patch things up or getting hysterical and anxious about the situation. He keeps putting his arms around me (not reciprocated by me), sending me emails through the day and calling me. Doing everything I want apart from talking to me and doing what I really want to hear which is 'How can we sit down and sort this out - Lets talk it through'.

Dr Harley has offered to talk with me more, and has invited me onto the radio situation this week so I am doing that.

I am so very sad that it is turned out like this. All I want to do is for us to be a family, I know he wants the same deep down.

Reasons; we are glad that you are taking this seriously and that Dr Harley has encouraged you to come back a second time. BF's efforts are clearly geared to doing just enough to protect his first love (alcohol). Until he has addressed his addiction, nothing will change. It is just talk.

You may still be able to turn your horrible situation into a romantic marriage but that will not happen until BF knows you are serious.

Hi there

Really starting to feel at rock bottom.

We spent the weekend pretty much separately. My choice not his. He wanted to do stuff together. I am pretty much in withdrawal, he keeps trying to draw me out of it. At one point at the weekend, he said 'you have a terrible life don't you'? Really sarcastically. I didn't respond. Making me feel that I am bringing this all on myself, and making an issues where there isn't one.

Our youngest son 7 years old is going through a 'pushing boundaries' phase which is really hard to deal with too.

Dr Harley discussed my situation further on the radio show on June 6. Really how we are both renters, I would say I WAS a buyer and in the last 12 months moved to a renter. Also confused about that, a group of his friends all went to Prague for the weekend and he didnt go because he didnt feel it was fair on me. So now feeling guilty complaining about him.

Dr Harley said it is very difficult to resolve situations like ours whilst we are living together unmarried. He also mentioned his angry outbursts and alchohol issues and confirmed that he thought he was an alchoholic.

Dr Harley also said that we need to be in a situation of meeting each others needs. Him getting SF and me getting the attention I need to feel like SF.

I broke down in tears in front of the children this morning for the first time I ever. They were both playing up a little bit and I felt unable to cope. Now feeling guilty about that and angry at him.

We are suppose to be going away this weekend for a family break which is booked and paid for. I am not sure what to do about that whether just to let him go on his own with the kids or go with them all? That will be horrible not seeing the children all weekend.

How do I go about the separation do I give him a letter? Or do I just tell him face to face. What do I say?

Thank you all, not having a great time at the moment.

Of course you are not having a great time. You are in mourning for what might have been. But from here there is only upside. Either you will separate and work on sorting out the relationship from the ground up or he will decide alcohol is more important than his family. Addicts do not address their issues until they hit bottom. Right now you are enabling him which is why separation is so important.

Your children are acting up because they feel the tension. That will be better too once the air clears

I would let him go away without you and spend the weekend making your separation plans. If Dr Harley did not suggest you write him a letter, hold off doing that for now. Think about the practical aspects of where you will live and how you will pay for everything.

Dear Reasons,

have you thought about writing him an e-mail or speaking with him in a quiet moment?
There seems to be some goodwill on both sides and you could describe what your envisioned relationship looks like.
You could tell him about the marriage builders programm.and the possibility to have a great relationship.
And as Dr. Harley says, keep in mind the possibility of separation (do not draw it out), when he is not willing to change.

happy heart; just to clarify Dr Harley recommended a separation and for them to date so that she could fall in love with him again. Then they could marry and become buyers. Right now he is draining away her love one drop at a time so this is urgent.

But first he has to address his alcoholism and the angry outbursts. I presume these two are related but you are the doctor. Are they?

I won't lie i am feeling terrible. One the edge of tears all day. Just got on the wrong train and missed my flight home. Fighting back the tears.

I am in place at the moment where I feel like he has basically told me how he feels about me some weeks ago (not in love with me enough to marry me) and never wanting to spend time with me, yet he wants to continue everything as normal. He even sent me an email today about booking up a Christmas ski trip. Yet every night as soon as the kids go to bed he disappears off makes no effort at all to talk to me about the relationship or anything. Just goes off doing exercise, reading his book or doing the garden. I hate being in the house when this is going on.

Last night he didn't get in until after I went to bed. He doesn't bother telling me where he is and I don't bother asking. He always use to by the way, even to the point if his phone went dead sending the details of a friend he was with. Up until we had a fight 3 weeks ago. It is like he is saying I am what i am, like it or lump it and he knows I am weak, because I am

Really tempted right now just to go and stay at mums or a friends for a few nights. I am not feeling that I can cope with looking after the kids because all I am feeling so emotional and it would be almost like saying I feel so bad I just cant look after the kids you can get on with it all. I have never done that before by the way.

I am basically feeling that I am some hormonal deranged person that I am making this situation all up in my head and everything is actually fine. He seems to be ok with it all.

Thanks for posting again Living Well and Happy heart

Yes of course you are feeling terrible. The realisation of how awful things have become has hit you like a train. At the same time your brain is madly rewriting the history of your relationship in the light of what you now know. Be kind to yourself during this process, it does end. Doing this does not make you weak! If you were weak you would not be here.

He is throwing you dog biscuits with holidays and cars but in a buyer relationship that would never happen. All decisions, how to spend money and time, jobs, houses and hobbies are made jointly. My husband would never so much as buy a shirt without talking to me about it first and he is the breadwinner.

BF does not want to lose his family and that is your most powerful weapon. The fight was a symptom not a cause. He has always done whatever he wanted but what is different is that now you have had enough.

If you can safely leave the kids with him, why not go and stay at Mum's? Each day that you stay in your current situation makes things a little harder to put right. Eventually you will hate him so much that you cannot bear the sight of him, let alone have a romantic marriage with him.

Sounds as if he is avoiding you because he knows what is coming. Disappearing for the evening was supposed to threaten you. Be strong.

Hi there MB Folks

So to bring you up to date. I ended up going on the weekend away with the family. I made it clear that we were going to sleep in separate bedrooms when we got there. Boyfriend has now disappeared off to the spare room for a month now and I am not going to let him back into my bed just like that.

The weekend was ok, he keeps trying to draw me back in with physical affection such as stroking or unannounced cuddle. We were all getting on quite well and having fun as a family. Then we were in the new car and I got out to open a gate and then a gust of wind blew and knocked the car door and caused a dent on it. He got really frustrated about that (before he would have flown into a rage so he is trying to calm down his temper) he said that we was going to sell the new car as it was jinxed and that he was frustrated as I didnt show him I was bothered about the car. So then we both went back into withdrawal.

Last night he sent me a message about 730 saying he was going to the gym straight from work. I guess I just had enough and sent him a message saying;

Me: OK I was going to have a chat with you tonight...Finding this whole situation really stressful. Unfair and unhealthy on all of us. Is there any chance you can go and stay somewhere for a few days? I am finding it difficult bringing the kids up in this situation and think we would all benefit from a bit of space?

Him: Hilarious. No. Im trying to find somewhere, until I do no. We act normal for the kids, they are all that matter here. You finding it stressful, Im finding it devastating.

Me. I think the kids have been acting up because they feel the tension. Thats why I think its better for the children if one of us moves out. I am sure you find it devastating but you just seem to bury your head in the sand and hideaway. I have tried to talk to you about things but you just seem to get angry and shout at me or shut me off. I have also tried organising nights out/weekends away for us. You have been sleeping in the spare room for a year and disappeared off every evening, it is difficult to believe you care at all. Just the angry outbursts and temper is difficult to live with. Also the lying about the drugs and then getting blind drunk for 3/4 days. I am sure you have a whole list about me, which i have been willing to hear and change but you dont talk about anything. Also you have never made any formal commitment to me. I have tried to live with that but it has made me feel that I am not that important to you at all. I do love you and desperately want to work for us all.

Him. Not reading any texts or emails from you. You can save that for online chats or similar.

???

Reasons; you need to grasp this nettle. No more discussing it. He is not going to take you seriously till you take action. Asking him to sleep in another room and/or exchanging text messages is just moving deck chairs on the Titanic.

Ask him to move out. Give him a date by which you want him gone; something like 'I want you out by the end of June'. Tell him that this is the best hope for your relationship and that you both owe it to your children to attempt to repair things. It sounds as if he is willing to leave, now is the moment to push this. Don't give him an 'or else' but make your own plan. If the house is his, you might have to move out if he does not. If the house is yours, you might have to evict. Be thinking about all this but do not discuss it.

Once he is gone, we will help you make a plan. Drugs as well as alcohol? This is not good.

I am finding this really hard living well. I feel like I am saying goodbye to my children too here. All sorts of horrible thoughts are running through my head - like us having separate holidays and me not seeing my children for a week or being with another woman. I have considered just putting up with it all just so I can be with my children.

I am feeling better thought even telling him to move out for a few days. I need to push him for a date and I will do this, even though I feel sick to the stomach to the very core. We own the house 50/50 and he has offered to move out. I am still hoping that he wont actually go and still not facing the reality of it.

I haven't even told any friends or family what is going on and so embarassed about it all. I know people are going to look at me with pity and even my friends and I have discussed how awful it would be to split cause of the children. I am even thinking i wont need to tell anyone as we will sort it out by then.

I found out he went to my parents house yesterday for an hour with gifts ect... How strange. Now worried that he has snooped and found out that I am posting here from his last message.

Thanks again.

Yes this is scary. But a lot less scary than the thought of your children growing up thinking that his behaviour is normal and taking that into their own lives.

Push him for a departure date. He does have to go. It will take him at least a year to clean up his addictions. Then you will need to date one another to fall back in love. Then you will need to marry. All that has to happen before he moves back in.

Please tell your friends, family and children. You have no idea how much support you will get for this. They have been quietly watching this going on years and praying for this moment to come.

Yes he may have found your post. I always caution people not to copy and paste anything onto the internet that is private because the recipient can copy and paste the message into Google and immediately find it. Maybe ask the mods to remove that posting although I honestly think you have nothing to hide.

Best of luck to you.

I woke this morning I have just had enough of this whole situation and want him to go. Boyfriend went off to the gym, and came home with a coffee for me. I asked him if he has managed to find anywhere and he said not yet, I have been looking. He said he was looking for the right place somewhere the children could go and stay. I said how long do you need he said 2-3 weeks. He wants to get some things drawn up before he goes - wants us to see a solicitor so we can get an agreement drawn up around the children and our finances. I then came upto the bedroom as i literally was starting to well up. He then came up and said this needs to happen but we need to show a united front for the children. I had enough of him trying to play happy families with the children and left to go to a friends for the night as just dont want to be around him. He tried to give me a kiss on the way out the door but I pushed him away - he asked me to let him know where i was going i said I don't have to do that. He said I was being a petuchulent child.

An agreement is an excellent idea. Explain that you think you will be able to do this with a clearer head once he has moved out. You do not want discussion about the agreement to get stretched out for so long that you agree to anything just to get him to leave.

Don't listen to his manipulating talk. Just in your head go 'bla bla bla' when he starts the happy families nonsense. If he wanted a happy family he would have married you and then stayed off the drink and drugs.

thats good advice thank you living well - appreciate all your posts and support. I always feel ok until I get to the point where I blame myself. He made an awful lot of effort early on - when I rejected him a lot as the children were so young - i guess thats where a lot of the guilt from. I feel he checked out some time ago.

Cant imagine a successful outcome for this, he is 53 he is never going to change. He is a very strong character and set in his ways.

Nothing you can do about the past. You can only change now.



That is a disrespectful judgement. You have no idea what he can or cannot change.

I would be more concerned about the fact that your love for him is draining away really fast. Soon you will be at the point of no return. This separation is urgent if you want any chance saving the relationship.

Are you putting together a plan to separate? What is your plan?

Hi BrainHurts

Yes separating - he is finding somewhere else to live over the next 2 weeks. I am staying in the house with the children. I asked him to move out and he pretty much said yes, no resistance at all, so what does that tell me!

It tells you there is hope

I agree.

Hi there

Talk about the emotions I have gone through this week. I started off the week strong and feeling ok, then dipped half way through the week just wanting to call up in a ball and hide. However I managed to get strong again and make some plans for the children and I for the weekend.

My boyfriend got mad at me on Saturday. I went to take the children out for a couple of hours he started getting mad saying I am not seeing very much of the children this weekend. I ended up saying well it didnt have to be like this did it, then he started to get upset and said well its not my fault is it, its your fault because of the way you have been for 6 years. I then told him that I couldnt change the past. He then said he had a big decison to make on monday out of 4 places or something. I then left the house.

I went to meet my sister Saturday night after the kids went to sleep, he asked me where I was going into town and I said no I am going out for a quiet drink to a local as it was a nice evening. He then made a comment about oh you will see loads of the old crowd that will be very cosy for you all to reminisce. I ended up having a nice evening with my sister, I confided in her about the situation and she was very supportive. It was good to talk.

Today, he bought cake and coffee back from his football outing. He then asked for us to go out on the boat as a family and I said that I wont be going but he can take the children. He decided to stay at home.

Then our son was very tired and I was hoping to get him in bed, boyfriend suggested they play football. I said that I am not sure thats a good idea as he is very tired. They played football anyway and then Son had a meltdown and I then told boyfriend that he is only young and sometimes he needs some rest time ( this is a issue in the relationship that I feel he constantly has the kids on the go and I feel they should have free time / down time). He then got mad and said dont worry you will be rid of me soon.

I am wandering what is happening about him moving out - I am so gutted. I have started to look back at the relationship and realise how he has checked out ages ago. Probably a year and a half of stopping wanting to do things just us 2. I feel that he has only been here for the kids. Maybe he is hoping I will break and beg for him not to leave like I did before? So very sad.

I dont understand why he is not trying to fix the situation with me or trying to talk to me. I am so heart broken.

He is trying to 'fix the situation'. He is trying things that have worked before; threatening you to make you capitulate. He is looking for ways to continue his independent behaviour, his addictions and keep you too.


What would he talk to you about? If he said, 'I would like to keep everything exactly as it was and not move out' you would show him the door. If he said 'I will stop the independent behaviour, completely give up alcohol and illegal drugs and get married' you would say 'lets discuss this once you have been sober for a year and are attending AA regularly'.

Believe me, he will be a different person if he does all that.

Be strong Reasons, you are doing this for your children. It is incredibly important that they see you do this and that you tell them the truth about why.

Evening MB friends

I was sat at home working this morning and boyfriend showed up at the house. He marched in and said 'we need to talk'. So I went into the kitchen to hear what he had to say. He told me that he has found a house to go and live in and that he needs to make a decision about it. He then said that either way we need to sort out whats going to happen. He said that we have got into a bad cycle and something needed to happen. He then proceeded to list off all the things that I had done wrong. I could list them there were many;

How I never want to kiss him
How I was upset with him when he went on a NY trip after I had the second baby
How I never wanted to go out and party with him
How when he came home from work late in the evening I would be sat in front of the TV
How I didn't want me daughter to take his mums name

There were more things but I started to zone out and shut down.

I tried to talk to him but then he started to shout and get angry and then I told him that I didnt want to be on the receiving end of anymore of his angry outbursts and that he should take the house. Then he turned nasty and started to make threats about taking things off me like cars and gym membership and that he wanted the children more time than he originally said. It was at that point I left the house. He then started saying about signing things with solicitors and sitting down the telling the childre. I told him I would be happy to do that once he had left with a calmer head. He then also said he was going to not leave until an agreement had been made as he knew what I was like and that I would prevent him seeing them. He said he was going to phone my mother to sort out access.
He then actually rang my mother and said I would try and stop him seeing the children, my mum told him that I would never do that. That he needed to try and talk to me calmly without shouting.

He then rang me (sounding very tearful) and asked to meet in a public place so I did and for the first time ever we sat down and talked and he actually listened to me. However, I mostly sat and listened to him go on and on about all the things wrong with me again. He said he had stopped making an effort with me as there was no point. He then started to get nasty and sarcastic the more he talked about me. I said that he seemed very angry at me and I didnt feel I had done anything significant or wrong to deserve that. He said he was angry at a lot of things at the moment. He then started to mimic my voice in a horrible childish way so I told him tif we was going to do that I would leave. He did it again so I left. He absolutely hates me, he is now going to way back when and saying how I neglected him. So basically he has spent the last few years punishing me for my lack of attention. I honestly feel like I did give him attention, but when I am faced with so many accusations and anger I get confused about what went on.

I am now worried about him taking the children off me. I am frightened about that. I feel he wants to sort things out but on the basis of all my 'wrong doings', there is nothing he has done wrong as far as he is concerned.

I guess he is saying;

'I would like to keep everything exactly as it was and not move out'

Yes precisely. He will not get custody the children unless he can prove you are an unfit mother. With his binge drinking and illegal drug taking I somehow doubt that he would try that tactic as it would massively rebound on him.

Now do not be drawn into any further discussions and do not leave. Your children need the security of their home. He has to be the one to leave. I can give you a suggestion about how to make that happen but if he might be reading this it is better that you ask your sister how to do it.

Yes he also has a past criminal record and was recently reported to the police and school by passer by after they thought he was using overly aggressive to the children on the school run. He was interviewed by the police as a result, but nothing was charged.

He sounds like quite the catch (joke alert). Keep careful records of everything.

Living_Well

I am beside myself, I am so angry with myself. I feel like I have buckled and listened to all his complaints about me and he is still living in the house. I am so so angry. He has actually walked all over me, forced me into a corner so I had to ask him to leave. Then made threats about leaving expecting me to buckle. Then when I didn't buckle he made threats about taking the children off me.

Then when I agreed to talk to him he just rattled on about how awful I was (I can guarantee I was never that awful) which i listened too. I managed to tell him some stuff about how I feel. I even made him some dinner and sorted out some IT issue. He even went off to the gym last night and slept in the spare room.

How do I get him out of the house? I absolutely hate him for this and want him gone.

You and your children are not safe. Get him excluded asap. Take the police report.

Hi there

I am back again.

So I last posted beginning of July. My partner and I decided to be together and give it a real go and went to counselling. We have been doing that for 3 months. We have been spending lots of time together, lots of joint activities mainly with the children. The counselling kind of helped. They picked up on his temper sort of. However, after reading some of the principles on here, the counsellor seemed slightly inadequate.

Anyway to cut a long story short, it seemed as things have reverted back to type again. We went to a wedding together, we had sex that night, in the morning he wanted sex again and we didnt have much time I wanted to go to breakfast, he was very moody with me at breakfast. He seemed as though he was sulky all week. Was it because of that? Who knows.

On the Friday evening he had been in london all day. As soon as he came home from work and said night to the children he went straight to bed. This is how he had been most of the week. The next morning I found a lunch receipt for posh london restaurant from the day before. I was a bit suspicious about it as he hadn't mentioned it. So i called his bluff and asked him how his meeting went? He said oh yes i just went to the office for the meeting. I pushed him and he started to fluster and change his story.

He went balistic saying I was psychotic and he was going to call social service as I wasnt right to look after the children. He then started shouting lots in front of the children, I told him to stop shouting in front of the kids. so I called the police. He told me before I called if you do this I will never forgive you. He packed a bag and left. That was nearly a week ago. He has stayed in a hotel every night since. He comes home to see the children and then as soon as they are in bed he leaves the house. He is treating me like I have had an affair or something.

We havent spoken a word since he went. He has asked to take our son to football over the weekend and he will pop by and get him

Disaster...

Separation is your best plan at this juncture. He is out of the home now. Can you get the locks changed? You should stay separated until he eliminates his angry outbursts and he stops drinking. This may take a year, but it really is the best choice. As long as you stay with him in this renter situation, you are at higher risk to be harmed as a result of his angry outbursts, especially if combined with drinking. I wouldn't let him in at all. If he's going to see the children, make sure it's out of your home. If you remain permanently separated, this is what he will have to do anyway. Have you seen a lawyer to understand any legal rights to property and your children?

In the meantime, make your life as pleasant and enjoyable as you can. When you are with him, be pleasant, eliminate love busters, but don't allow him to return to your home until he has eliminated his angry outbursts and drinking. Marriage is much more than a formal commitment; it's a commitment to provide extraordinary care for each other in a monogamous relationship for life.

So boyfriend has been staying away every night.

I spoke to my mother on the phone today and she told me i was wrong to call the police and thats probably why he has left. Feeling massively wrong for doing that and thought i would've got more back up from my mother.

Boyfriend then came home and we took the children to our sons football match. I pulled him to one side to apologise for calling the police. In all honesty I should have handled it in a more mature calmer way. It very much aggravated the situation and I was worried about the police taking it further. He said thank you for that.

He was very calm and told me that he was staying at the hotel for awhile, that he felt that there are underlying problems in the relationship that separation would do us good. That he doesn't want us to split up but time appart would do us good. That there was no passion in the relationship and that is being together is making him not a good father around the children and is causing him to get angry. He is putting on a strong united front in front of the children.

I agreed and we walked away.

So sad.

Your mother doesn't know how to save a marriage, so don't be too surprised if you don't get a lot of support for calling the police when you are feeling threatened by his anger. You were not wrong for calling the police if you were frightened by his anger. Neighbors will often call the police for domestic disturbances; the line between domestic disturbance and domestic violence is pretty small.

There is no passion in your relationship because there are tons of love busters happening. Who is going to feel passionate about being with someone who is angry and drinks to excess? It makes perfect sense that there would be no passion. His behavior would be a big turnoff for most women.

Can you support yourself? Can you make a pleasant life for yourself? A good job, friends, and a lovely little home would go a long way to making you feel better.

**EDIT**

Moderator's note, please familiarize yourself with the Marriage Builders program before posting to others. The purpose of the forum is to help posters understand Marriage Builders concepts. Thank you.

**EDIT**

so i am back.

I never grasped the nettle and dealt with the whole thing badly trying to keep 'my family' together.

After the last police incident I ended up feeling so guilty that I asked him to come home. We agreed to work through it, which was basically him being cold and serving me crumbs. We even went away on a family ski trip over Christmas. Him being the same, distant and avoiding me. Also wound up with me being cold with him in the endd and giving up too.

This weekend I found on his phone a string of text messages to another woman, telling her he was mad about her and they shared a kiss in the street. So there, my suspicions were right. I asked him to leave he has taken all of his stuff. I phoned her she said he told her that we had broken up, she said we had never had SF. She said we didnt meet online but wouldnt tell me how.

I have told all of our family and friends about what he has been upto, so they all know.

I dealt with the whole thing terribly, try to put plasters on it all and now here i am. He phoned my mother and said he has made a very silly mistake and kissed someone.

I am devestated, i guess i now have to try and survive and move forward. I just want him to stay away now and let me move on.

i know i have ignored advice here people but i need some help.

Living well dont give up on me.

Is the OW married?

I'm sorry that you've had to come back with such unpleasant news. I can hear how depressed you are about his behaviour. I think the only thing you can do is follow the advice that Dr Harley gave you last year. The poster BrainHurts is a genius at linking people's radio shows to their threads.

Dear Brainy,

Reasonswhy was on the radio show twice in 2019. She talks about it in this thread. Do you think you could link her shows here for us?

Hi BrainHurts

No she lives alone with her 2 teenage sons. I spoke to her yesterday and she was reluctant to reveal how they met, it wasnt online. I have no idea anything about her, where she lives where she works. She insisted that 'nothing much had happened' and kept trying to call me after I put the phone down and got as much info as I could get.

I only know her name is Vicky. I have exposed his affair to his workplace, all his friends, and all of his family. I am going to tell the school tomorrow. He is so involved there playing the big I am/pillar of society.

i have asked my sister to act as IM. He keeps trying to ring text but only to speak to the children. My sister will act is intermediary and has text him asking to leave me alone.

I am unsure what to do about access to the children, as I want them to see him for their sakes. My sister has told him that all contact goes through her, and that he can pick the kids up tomorrow after school and take them out for a few hours.

I have been deluded, he has simply been with me for the kids and I have let him. i am destroyed didnt sleep a wink last night. Kids are picking up on it the 6 year old has gone really quiet and the 7 year old keeps getting upset.

REasonswhy, you have done the right thing in asking him to move out. I think that is the best thing for all, especially for you. What do you think you handled badly?

Nobody is giving up on you. We want you to be safe. Give us updates as you move through this tough process.

What have you told the children? I will look up the radio clips. Do you remember what Dr. Harley had told you? Could you summarize it for us?

Hey MelodyLane

Thank you for responding. I came here about 6 months ago. I have been with my partner for 9 years (never married) we have a 6 yr old daughter and 7 year old son. There have been problems in the relationship, his angry outbursts, being cold and distant, refusal to get married. Confusing as most of his time wanting to spend all of his time with me and the children, never going on boys holidays or boys nights out but never really committed t me either. Dr Harley advised me to separate, with the intention of dating, falling in love again but not moving back in together until we were married. I came close to separating but never got the courage to follow through with it, i tried maybe twice and eventually buckled either off my own back or because he threw me crumbs. We both agreed we love each other and splitting up was never an option.

I have now discovered he has being having an EA with someone yesterday. I have exposed it to friends, family, his workplace. I should have separated ages ago now I have the added stress of a 3rd party. Do I expose to childrens school?

I actually feel relieved he has gone. I have felt like I have been in Plan A for 2 years, trying to keep him happy and prove I am worthy of him when I actually haven't done anything wrong.

I am using my sister as an IM. Which is a bit difficult. I am having some pressure from her to have some form of contact with him to keep the peace. I keep insisting I don't want to have contact. I found out about the affair yesterday. We didn't argue, I didnt shout. He told me that things havent been right for awhile, I said well they are not going to be whilst you are seeing someone else. Wasnt interested in his babble and asked him to leave. He said things havent been right over Christmas and NY. He said he was going to speak to me about moving out. I told him to leave again. He asked me what do I do, I don't want to take all my stuff in front of the children and upset them? I said do it when we were out. He came when the kids and I were out and cleared all of his stuff not leaving a thing behind.

I have tried keeping myself busy the last 24 hours. I went into work today and made my managers aware they have been very good and told me to take the time. One part relieved I dont have to deal with him and another part distraught over the loss of my family.

Sorry if the English isn't great I am still in shock and trying to calm myself down.

How do I deal with him seeing the children? My son has football 3 times a week where he is assistant coach?! I really don't want to see him incase I break. Actually the sound of his voice at the moment makes my toes curl!!

oh and i must add i am dealing with a very strong character. he has a very nasty angry streak and he will not like this at all.

one thing i dont get is the level of anger he has towards me - like he really hates me? not just now but over the last couple of years.

He keeps pestering my sister about access to the children - he only went yesterday. I have agreed with my sister for him to pick them up for a few hours tomorrow and take them out and drop them back home. He wants to come back here and cook them dinner? I have said no but worrried he will just turn up.

Best to lay down the law at the start, it will make life easier going forwards. Your children are old enough to get out of the car and walk to the door by themselves. If you think he might push into the house with them, arrange to do the hand-off somewhere else. Can he drop them off at your sister's house? Otherwise arrange for him to hand them off to you (say) at the local library

Hi BrainHurts

i have told the children that Daddy is staying in London for a few days as work is very busy. My eldest asked if we had an argument and I said yes over something very silly.

the radio shows were from around the 6 june - i was Teresa.

RW, you are correct to not see or speak to him. I would keep this up, but you shuold send over a very regimented visitation schedule and arrange with your sister to take care of the transfer. Your sister can give him the visitation schedule.

I would tell your children the truth. They are old enough to understand that he hurt you by having an inappropriate relationship with another woman. Let them know he won't be living there anymore.

Have you given any thught to the advice given by Dr Harley? If so, you could write your BF a letter and give him the conditions Dr Harley suggested.

Can you hire a locksmith and change your locks so he doesn't come in?

So I found out who the OW is. She worked at another company on the same project. I have her linked in profile. It is hitting me like a train the first thing I want to do is phone him and scream at him.

I nearly sent an email to some of the people at Robbie's work informing her who she is. I haven't done anything and I have been awake since 4am. I feel like i have pushed her into his arms.

He is obviously totally in love with her. I am mad about you he put in the text.

she is from london - and thats where he is staying at the moment. I feel like blocking him from seeing the kids tonight.

i am DESTROYED.

She has obviously been his confidant about us, and they have had a 'friendship' now it has moved onto something even more. When I spoke to her Sunday, she told me;

They hadn't had SF - they had only kissed.
That he told her we had split up
She was insistent for me NOT to break things up over this
I told her we had been on holiday for 2 weeks over Xmas
That we had been having SF

I feel like contacting her to find out more. How long the friendship has been going on.

I am going to have to go to the docs and get something to see me through this.

RW, I am sorry you are suffering so much. The very best thing you can do to alleviate your suffering is a) get on anti-depressants and b) go completely DARK. Do not speak to the OW or your boyfriend. I know it feels tempting to lash out, but it will only increase your suffering. STAY DARK.


Feelings are not truth. You did no such thing. If he were remotely serious about fighting for your relationship, he wouldn't have had this affair. You don't have the power to push him into anyone's arms.


Probably a lie. She has a vested interest in lying to you.

PLEASE follow my advice and stay away. You will only increase your suffering if you lash out. STAY DARK.

Thank you for your support Melody Lane.

My sister who is IM came over for the evening. Mainly to be there when he drops the kids back to the house. I decided that I would get out of the house for the first handover incase he decided to come in.

When I got back to the house my sister was distraught. We concentrated on getting the children to bed. My son was in a right state after the visit. He told me that Daddy had said to him Mummy has been texting lots of men and going on lunches, mummy doesn't love Daddy anymore and that Mummy won't let Daddy in the house. That Daddy is very angry with Mummy texting lots of people and saying bad things about him (exposure). My son told my sister that Daddy was crying at dinner that he couldnt be with the chidlren. My son was hysterical saying I want Daddy! I managed to calm him down which took about 30 mins. Then he said sorry Mummy and I said thats ok Mummy is not upset with you and Mummy loves you very much.

I am so angry that he did this to the children and filled their heads with BS.

Once the children were asleep my sister had told me that when he dropped them off at the house, my sister said thank you, and he replied 'they are my children' very huffy and short with her. SO now what? I let him see the children and he messes them up like this?

This is why you need to expose to your children.

Have you read Exposing to Children ?

One of the first things you need to do is tell the children the truth about why he has moved out. Don't leave them confused like this - and also, open to lies from him.

The next thing you need to do is clarify your legal situation. He will have rights to see the kids, so organise a schedule that recognises his legal rights and specifies pick-up and drop-off points. Also, what arrangements have you made for him to support the kids financially?

Where do you stand legally on your home? Do you own it together, or are you both named on the rental documents? Will you need to have ownership or rental transferred to you?

I worry that if he can treat you the way he has done, and if he can say the things he has said to the kids, he could become vindictive and withdraw financial support, and maybe even make you have to give up your home. You need to sort this out with a lawyer.

thanks SugarCane and Brain Hurts

I told the children this morning before school that Daddy has been inappropriate with another woman and mummy is upset and he has moved out of the house. I imagine whats happened is that when he had his visit after school this is what the children repeated and he retaliated.

Thank you I will read the exposure to children thread.

He will become very indictive and as shown earlier in the thread when I tried to separate from him previously he threatened me with reporting me as an unfit mother, selling out home and claiming custody of the children.

I haven't made any arrangements yet with money for the children. He continues to pay my a monthly sum and I also work and get paid.

Is your name on the title and/or mortgage of your home? Do you have an attorney yet or leads to a good one who will help you sort out the child support and protect you in case he does file against you? Have you seen a doctor yet to obtain antidepressant/antianxiety medication to see you through this traumatic time?

That will just confuse them even more. What does that even mean? As an adult I would have no earthly idea what it means to be "inappropriate with xx" so I am certain they don't. Please don't use vague, weird language with your kids, it just adds to the confusion. Tell them he had an affair and that affairs are wrong. Tell them WHO it is with and that it was very hurtful. Kids understand the truth. They don't understand meaningless doublespeak.


As long as your children are not told the truth, he is free to lie to them. Please tell them the truth.

You need to consult with an attorney and get legal protection as soon as possible. He is a very vindictive person. Did you see my post about changing your locks so he can't get in? What about my post about sending over a strict visitation schedule?

I have exposed now to the children which was horrendous. Daddy has had an affair, which is very wrong and mummy is very upset and angry about it and doesn't want Daddy to live in the house with us anymore. Lots of questions like - whats an affair Mummy? My daughter was brilliant - why did Daddy do that Mummy? Can you get him arrested? Very understanding and quiet. My son got very angry with me, so I had to stand up him a bit which was horrible.

They also came out with more comments that he had made to them when he took them out after school, mainly to get back to me I am sure to get me to buckle. Why am i not allowed in the house - I am the one that pays for it? Mummy has been meeting up with lots of men. They came back in a right state and I am just going to have to be there to pick up the pieces.

i am frightened to change the locks that he will go mental - i want to wait a little while before I do that.

I had a text from his best friend this morning asking to come round to the house today to discuss the extension project we have going on. I responded that I don't want any involvement in the building project but more than happy to provide access to the house to get it finished. Was this the right thing to do in Plan B? If this all breaks up it will make the house value higher which means I would get more money on the sale.

Now he has texted the IM and his sister, business partner and my mother all the same message. "Morning - I hope you are all good? Can you ask Reasons if Im meeting DS at training or I can wait at the end of the drive at 530pm? Alternatively I can get a friend to pick him up. I have cc'd my sister so if easier Reasons can talk to her. Thank you and sorry to all of you for the inconvenience. I can drop him at the end of the drive after aswell. Going forward Id love to get a plan of when I can see the children please. Thank you all'.

My sister has responded direct to him no one else - that our son wont be going to training tonight - that he came home very upset and angry last night and took Reasons 1 hour to calm him down. I will send you over a visit schedule as soon I get it from Reasons.

It seems to me that he is getting mad and using all angles to get to me or get me to speak to his people? What do you think?

I am now trying to work out a reasonable visit schedule.

what is a reasonable visitation schedule look like???

also I am not sure what I would go to a lawyer for? I am not married and in the UK do not have any rights I dont think

ok so its getting worse. My sister the IM is getting a barage of texts from him now - making demands and bad mouthing me. He is now trying to set the schedule of who talks to who - refusing to deal with my sister as an IM. i have now had a text from his sister offering to help.

Whats going on???

Reasons,

I'm concerned that you've been bounced into a kind of Plan B because he had already moved out by the time you came back here, and you are attempting Plan B after the separation. However, because you didn't plan and set up Plan B from the start, it's not being implemented properly.

The key thing is that you are not supposed to see complete message from him, and you are not supposed to see the replies sent by your sister or anyone else. Plan B is not just not speaking to him; it is not hearing ANYTHING from him except when a vital fact about the children or money needs to be exchanged. Any comments, complaints, sneers, criticisms, whines and lies are that are not vital facts should never reach you. The point is for your IM to protect you from all that. They are supposed to enable you to deal with legal obligations only.

Please urgently read this thread: How to Plan B CORRECTLY

It is not true that not being married gives you no rights. Everyone in civilised countries, including the UK, has legal rights. You have rights as a parent, rights as someone who cohabited for many years, and rights as a homeowner. The problem is that, just as you have rights, so does he.

You need to find out your rights as an unmarried parent who was a cohabitee, and who has joint ownership of a house, immediately. I can't believe that you haven't even looked into this yet.

Your children have rights to see their father, and not to be turfed out of their home. Technically, if you are joint owners of the home, he could put it up for sale whenever he likes. That is why you need to seek legal protection so that a judge decides that this cannot happen. A judge will require your boyfriend to continue paying a proportion of the mortgage, and he or she will not allow the house to be put up for sale unless it is decided that between you, it cannot be paid for any longer. A judge will also enforce a court order for child support.

In many cases with separated parents, the non-resident parent has the children to stay one night every week, and every other weekend. (I'm not sure when the "weekend" starts and ends; Friday night after school? Saturday? Ending on Sunday night, or with the kids being dropped at school on Monday mornings? But what about the school holidays?) However, some parents have a more generous (to the non-resident parent) arrangement than this; for example, where the non-resident parent collects the children from school every day but does not keep them overnight. This would obviously depend on that parent's working patterns.

Contact Citizens Advice for free advice, but you will still need a lawyer to work on your behalf. Get moving on this.

Hi - thank you LongWayFromHome

Yes my name is on the title and the property is jointly owned 50/50. We have a joint account with a few thousand in it, fortunately to withdraw any money from it there needs to be joint signatures. So neither of us will be able to touch this without the others permission.

He currently pays me £800 per month 'housekeeping' which he actually does through his company. So it acts as a salary. He has always done that and says that its his way of bringing extra money into the family. I have checked the UK government website maintenance calculation and it says £800 per month for 2 children. So I guess if I was to ask for child support he would say that was it? He is extremely wealthy and has a £20 million company jointly owned with his business partner. He currently pays all the bills for the house. I also get an income from my job. So I should be ok on that front.

I keep thinking wait awhile before anti depressants? Last night I had a good nights sleep and I have been able to focus on work today and I seem to be feeling a bit better?

Thank you everyone for responding to me.

REasonswhy, are you acting on the advice given by Sugarcane? Have you contacted an attorney? Have you explained to your sister that you should not be informed of his nasty texts? As far as an intermediary, your sister is it. If he wants to communicate with you it will have to be through her or not at all. Have her stand firmly with your husband. If someone else tries to get a message to you on his behalf, you must stop them and tell them no. Tell them that direct communication is so painful that you have shut that down for now. If he wants to get a message to you it must be through your sister.

Your sister needs to be a spam filter and only pass on messages that are critical about visitation and finances. Nothing more.

Your bf will try to get around this because he will not like losing control of you. I would encourage you to change the locks so he doesn't barge in on you when he sees that you are serious about this.

I have read that people are misinformed about this. I have read the a joint account gives both parties equal rights to withdraw all the money on their own- so he could do this to you.

You should read the terms and conditions of this account again, today; don't assume that your understanding is correct.

...and she MUST NOT pass on the whole message. You are not supposed to actually hear his (written) voice. She is supposed to interpret the message so that only a question is asked, e.g. "Boyfriend would like to collect the kids from school and take them to karate on Wednesday".

If he doesn't actually ask for the exercise of his legal rights, she should not tell you that he even contacted her. You should not know that he has been bombarding her with messages saying that you've been seeing other men and you are an evil witch trying to stop him from seeing his kids.

She is NOT supposed to let you hear his bile and viciousness. The messages you posted here should never have reached you intact.

Exactly! The messages you get from her should be in HER WORDS, not his.

Thank you Sugar Cane - I have read this before I will read it again. I will tell my sister. If I am honest I am getting pleasure/relief from hearing that it is having some effect on him. I also have checked when he was last online on whatsapp its makes me feel closer to him . Its helping me cope. But I will stop doing that and get my sister to put the spam filter on.

I will do this Friday - I am just about to do school run, and I am at work tomorrow. I have got this - feeling strong. I will also change the locks.

I never wanted any of this - and really cant believe he does deep down. Dear god - please let him come to his senses.

Reasonswhy, I hope that you come to your senses. That is what is imperative here because if you don't, you are facing years of agony. I would strongly suggest that you take this opportunity to follow Dr Harley's advice. Additionally, you will have to affair proof your relationship. You have an opportunity to really turn this around if you can follow a plan. I have a feeling that you are only in Plan B to punish him rather than to protect yourself from his destructive behavior. Destructive behavior that will continue if you don't manage this correctly.

Can you outline Dr Harley's advice to you?

You are sorely in need of legal advice about all this.

This seems to be a case of a wealthy man who did not marry the mother of his kids, and keeps his finances separately from her, all so that she cannot touch his wealth. He has done this so that he can walk away from you without many ties. It's becoming clear to me that he did not properly ask you to marry him because he was ambivalent about the relationship and he wanted to be able to move on easily. (I don't know why women put up with this refusal to get married.)

Paying you a salary helps his business; as an employee earning less than the annual tax and NI threshold, he has fewer costs than if he were paying you more, and all the costs are to his business - not from his personal income. However, as this counts as a salary, it should be added to your other earned income, and the chances are that you should be paying tax and NI on that joint amount; is this happening? If it's not, how do you know you won't be landed with a large tax bill at some point? This arrangement is not favourable to you.

Child support should come out of his personal income - and a judge might decree that he needs to pay MORE, as he has a profitable business. It would also not be taxable as your personal income.

I'm no expert on this; this is just what I have gathered as a UK citizen having dealt with tax, as well as marriage problems, on a personal level.

You need to wake up and protect yourself and your children. You seem to have been in a bit of a daze so far. This is understandable, but it needs to stop.

MelodyLane is right. His senses are not the issue here; yours are.

He seems to me to have organised his life very well so that you do not have a claim on it. He hasn't wanted to marry you, and he has been horrible to you for a long time in this relationship because he is not in love with you, and now he has found someone else and moved on easily, so what makes you think he isn't in his right senses? (To be clear: I don't think he has ever been in his right senses, to treat the mother of his children like this - and you sound so lovely and protective, and hurt - but this is who he is, and I don't see what incentive he would have to change now.)

You, however, have clung to him and allowed him to move back despite Dr Harley telling you how messed up the relationship has always been, and you haven't even looked into your legal rights. You own that home 50/50: if he sold the house and kept his 50%, could you provide a home for the children with your 50%? (Not so, from what I know about UK house prices.)

A judge won't let him sell the house and make you homeless, but you haven't even sought legal advice to see how to protect your children. It's your senses that I'm worried about.

Hi Melody Lane

There are 2 radio clips and I have no idea how to post it here on the website. I was called Teresa and it was on these dates;

Thursday, May 30,2019
Thursday, June 6, 2019

Dr Harley emailed me;

"My basic advice is for your to separate (he moves out) and date while separated if he is willing. Don't move in together until you are married with a clear idea about what marriage is. My book, Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders can be downloaded as an ebook from Amazon or just about any ebook source. Read it. Once separated, your relationship will either go forward or backward. It could end in divorce. But if it manages to recover, you will have the relationship that you've always wanted".

Dr Harley recommended separation for 2 reasons - he is an alchoholic, has a anger problem and said we were both renters.

Ofcourse now there is an OW involved so I have no idea how this changes things.

That is why I said in the beginning that I was annoyed for not seeing it through when I tried to separate with him before, because now it is even more complicated. I asked him to leave and get another place (which he agreed was the right thing to do) however he made several attempts to get me to buckle which I didn't and then on the day he was suppose to sign a housing contract, he decided he wanted to talk, which i did, and then I buckled.

Thank you, Reasons.

Hi Sugar Cane

Thank for taking time out to help - you seem very knowledgable about the 'practical side' which is great. Yes I am very aware of how he has operated. I was never too bothered about marriage initially. When I was first pregnant with our first child, he casually said in bed one night - did you want to get married? To which I said your alright thank you, not like that anyway! Because it was a half baked rubbish proposal. there was no meaning to it. Please be assured this is about me realising that I wont put up with his refusal to get married. Well one of the reasons anyway. There are lots. 80% of the time I am on plan, 20% i wobble and go down a destructive path.

You definetly tell it how it is SugarCane i nearly choked when I read this post I had a cry and a chuckle at the same time. Yes I did cling to him. I clung to him because I didnt want to have a broken home, because i didnt want my children to grow up away from me and I wanted desperatley to have a 'happy family'. I am also a fighter and thats what I tried to do. 2 years he has been a complete monster to me. He has been cold, indifferent, demanding, controlling, mean, angry and needy. I couldn't believe what I was seeing most of the time. I am completely mind boggled with his behaviour. on Saturday he was showing me how he was building an out house in the garden for our kids so when they were teenagers they had somewhere to play! He tried to have SF with me Sunday and also booked a holiday for us all only 2 weeks ago to go away in the Summer, meanwhile having his OW. Bizarre.

Now I am free, and the house is so quiet.

Yes I could provide a decent home for our children with 50%. I could afford a nice home. Nothing like we have now but something comfortable. I also have a well paid role working in cyber security. Do you what I wouldn't even want his dirty money if we were married? He can shove it.

I have looked into my legal rights last year. When we agreed he was moving out last summer after my dealing with Dr Harley I sought some advice from a bull dog lawyer who had been through similiar cases. The solicitor in question said that unmarried mothers when it comes to maintenance only receive child support based on UK government guide lines unless the fathers are super wealthy. Also there is a new law come in which begins with 'P" i cant remember its full name. Its basically a case similiar to mine which unmarried couple, woman gave up her career to bring up kids. Partner got super wealthy and because of that was able to take a chunk of his fortune. If I could be bothered to do that - you know deal with lawyers, court hearings ect..all the pain associated with that.

The trick is to let your lawyer handle most of it, like plan B. And don't throw away your rights under influence of emotions. Let a professional tell you what your rights are and how to handle.

An average wayward has no plan and acts foolish. Get legal advice, make a plan. Strategize. Document.

PS.. Who are you people? I am just looking at how many posts you have done and how long you have been here helping people like me. I am actually becoming really addicted to this site, all the notable posts and threads quite mad. I looked at some from a poster called Just Learning. They were pretty amazing. Thank you.

Ok, thanks. So his advice would be to stay separated until a) alcoholism resolved b) anger management completed and c) affair ended and don't move in together unless you are married. Are you willing to do those things? If you are, I would write him a Plan B letter outlining what it will take for reconciliation. When there are anger management issues, Dr Harley recommends that couples stay apart at least a year to demonstrate anger free behavior. You have the additional issue of his alcoholism that has to be addressed.

I would reach out to this lawyer - or another of your choice - and get a custody and financial agreement in place so he doesn't leave you high and dry. You need to get a legal agreement.

Hi All

I went to the bank yesterday - we have 16k in the joint account. I checked with the bank that its joint signatures so that he cant take any out. We set it up that way and the only way money can be withdrawn is if we both sign for it.

[quote=MelodyLane
Ok, thanks. So his advice would be to stay separated until a) alcoholism resolved b) anger management completed and c) affair ended and don't move in together unless you are married. Are you willing to do those things? If you are, I would write him a Plan B letter outlining what it will take for reconciliation. When there are anger management issues, Dr Harley recommends that couples stay apart at least a year to demonstrate anger free behavior. You have the additional issue of his alcoholism that has to be addressed.



[/quote]

There is no way I would have anything to do with him unless he was willing to do those things. Which will never happen so thats that.

I need to focus on how horrendous its been for me. I also am recovering from how he has treated me for the past 2 years. He has treated me so badly. Its like I need to build myself up again. How do I do this?

Drafting the visitation schedule ready to send over.

The affair almost seems minimal now it is the way he has mistreated me for so long which has been far worse.

By staying completely DARK. You will be amazed at how much better you feel in a few short weeks if you stay dark. You will feel better than you have in years and have much better judgement.


Your sister needs to deliver this and make it clear that this what you will agree to.

There is no way I would have anything to do with him unless he was willing to do those things. Which will never happen so thats that.[/quote]

I tend to agree.

I have felt the most relaxed today I have in days. No drama - lovely. I am sat here at home candles lit, favourite TV, actually feeling a huge sigh of relief that he has gone. Its like I am noticing so many things. How we lived our horrendous life. How I am going to be so much better off away from him, that I am actually not going to have a complete breakdown and be fine. He was always so loud, hectic and demanding it was exhausting.

For example, how disrespectfully my son talks to me, and I guess that he has picked this up from his father? I really told him off today that being unkind is simply not acceptable and that if he continues then he will go to his room, he actually came out and said sorry Mummy. That way of speaking to me is quite normal to him but I am putting a stop to that too. I think they are starting to miss their Dady as they have asked to call him.. The next visit is planned for Saturday. This must be hard for them as they are use to seeing him and speaking to him everyday. They have not spoken to him since Tuesday, and I cant help feeling how he must be? I would literally be tearing my hair out by now.

His best friend came over this morning to complete some work on the extension, I am very close to him and his wife and the 2 families go skiing every year for Christmas. I exposed to him and his wife on Sunday. When I went outside to get in the car (i made an extra effort to look a bit glam), he came over and looked like he was going to cry - are you ok reasons and gave me a huge hug. I kept it very brief told him I was doing ok, and then left for school. I was quite proud of myself. Sticking to Plan B still.

Thanks all for getting me through those last few days. Feeling lots of love for my mother and sister - they have been marvellous.

Reasons.

Draft Schedule;

Every Tuesday after school dropped off at home by 615pm - DS & DD
Every Wednesday football training pick up at home 530pm - DS
Sat 18th Jan DS & DD from 10am - 6pm
Sat 25 Jan DS & DD Overnight pick up 10am drop off next day at 12 pm
Sat 1st Feb DS & DD from 10am - 6pm
Sat 8th Feb DS & DD Overnight pick up 10am drop off next day at 12 pm
and so on each weekend going forward.....

Conditions
Children are not exposed to OW
You let me know where they are staying overnight

They are both age 6 & 7.

The biggest problem is football training & matches. He is a coach and attends all matches . The matches are on a Saturday and a Sunday. The times always vary and I can't drop them both off at football and leave my daughter there too because no one is there to watch her. He will be busy focusing on the match. Although he will say someone else can watch them and I am not comfortable with that, they might not be there for instance and they will be busy watching the match not keeping an eye on our DD. we use to argue about this - you cant palm them off on other people! So regular times are an issue and also i will have to drop DS at football and after the football he will have to come to house and pick up DD.

So we might have to liaise every week through IM to set pick up times/locations for the weekend?

What do you think? Help/comments please.

Are the matches every Saturday and Sunday? I would find a way to manage drop off and pick ups so you don't see him. That will wreck the objective of Plan B. He shouldn't be in the house at all.

Isnt' there a way to set up these visitations where it is the same every week regardless of the football games? For example, just let him have your son on Sat and Sun. He can pick up your DD on those evenings.

This is really stressful doing this, but I need to get something over.

There is a match every Saturday and Sunday - always at different times but usually finish by 12. My ex is a coach so attends every game Which means I can't go and I love watching my DS play football).

Its just how I get to let my son play football and do handovers? SO I suggest I drop son at football and my ex picks up DD from home after the match as I cant leave her there too and no one is there to look after her...

I would take more time and get this right. If you get this wrong, you will suffer dearly. It has to be done right so that you do not see him at these child transfers. Also it needs to be very routine versus changing from week to week so you are not constantly revisiting this. It will be exhausting this way.

The plans you suggested seems fraught with direct contact, your dropping him off at football, his coming to your house to pick up your DD. How could you possibly do that without being in contact with him?

What if you drop off your son at a pick up point [your sisters?] on Saturday morning and he drops him back off on Sunday after his game? And maybe he could pick up his DD at your sisters after the game on Sunday and have them both on Sunday afternoons?

Why should you give him the weekend while you do the tedious things like school runs?

Because their son plays football on weekends and her BF is the coach.

I made some changes changes to the schedule and sent it over - I made some minor changes like from Sat to Sun. I have also have spoken to female friends at the football, made them aware of the situation which means I can drop off down the road near the football and they will meet me so no contact.

Schedule;

Every Tuesday after school dropped off at home by 615pm - DS & DD
Every Wednesday football training pick up at home 530pm - DS
Sat 18th Jan DS & DD from 10am - 6pm
Sat 25 Jan DS & DD Overnight pick up 10am drop off next day at 12 pm
Sun 2nd Feb DS & DD from 10am - 6pm
Sat 8th Feb DS & DD Overnight pick up 10am drop off next day at 12 pm
and so on each weekend going forward.....

Conditions
Children are not exposed to OW
You let me know where they are staying overnight

BF has now implemented an IM. His IM responded by saying that he will run it past BF and BF sister but should be ok. Hilarious because there are lots of I in the texts and then reverts to BF so clearly written by BF and not IM. BF also confirmed that he has taken out a rental on a 3 bed property and that is where they will be staying overnight on the 25th Jan and he can forward the address if we like. He also put in his response (copying my mum, his sister and his IM) there is no OW and there never has been and it is was a moment of madness and Reasons knows this. He also informed that he is currently staying with IM.

I am feeling relieved that he has agreed to this schedule it gives me peace of mind. I am also relieved he is getting a place which is better for the children. I cant help worrying about them and how they will feel about his new house. I had a lot of hard questions from this morning - My DD asked why Daddy didnt love Mummy anymore? My son was asking lots of questions about the OW and I told DS that I didnt know anything and that was for Daddy to answer.

I know its the right thing and that we both really needed to get away from each other. Me from his anger and renter attitude and he needed to get away from me because of everything! He has been so lining everything up to leave. Such mixed signals though. He was on about moving to this area before and even wanted me to book an appointment for all of us to go and look at a family luxury house in that area 3 weeks before Christmas. Now he is moving to that area on his own. when we were away at Christmas he booked for us to go to France in the Summer and asked me if I wanted to ask my Mum along? He literally has been sending me daily emails, texts and calls. He kept trying to have SF with me all the time. He also started a big new building project in the garden a week ago - he said the kids can use that room when they are teenagers? Please explain this to me? such mixed signals.

Oh well.

I know I am not supposed to get all the stuff on the text - I have told my sister as IM. I will tell her again. PS. Friday night was our favourite night together, he always use to come home together with drinks and treats

RW, please ask your sister to not tell you any of this! The only messages you should get would be about critical issues pertaining to your children or finances IN HER WORDS.

What have you done to ensure you don't see him at drop offs and pick ups? What about keeping him out of your house?

I am confused. He is ABLE to send you messages NOW? If that is so, then you should stop that immediately. It is up to you to block every avenue of direct contact. Plan B means that NO communication gets through to you.

I am getting very concerned at the huge gaps in your Plan B, RW. He can't be expected to take this seriously if you don't. Change your email address. Change your cell phone #. Unplug your answering machine. Close these gaps! You will NEVER experience the benefits of Plan B with these gaping holes.

Hi MelodyLane

I was referring about his levels of contact with me before Sunday - for someone who wanted to leave and was with OW he was texting, emailing and calling me daily. I am confused as to how someone can be so full on with you booking holidays, talking about when the kids grow up and making them a den but at the same time intending to leave?

Do you have all avenues of communication effectively blocked now? The reason he can talk like that is his intention was to keep you on the farm and under his control.

If you look at his actions you can see that everything is about maintaining control of you. He doesn't like not being able to contact you directly. When you stood firm, he tried another ploy.

Makes a lot of sense now - that whole thing has been really confusing. I honestly can't tell you how awful its been. Looking back every interaction with another man was considered flirting, he tried to make me give up my job, he hated me 'dressing up' too much for the office, he would go hot and cold on me all the time, demanded SF and I constantly felt like I was trying to prove my worth to him. What was really messed up though was I let him and also began to look for these controlling signs to prove he did still really love me. Thats terrible.

All avenues of communication blocked down. I have not had one moment of contact with him since last Sunday and enjoying every minute. He is picking up the kids in the morning from the house. I dont need to see him then either. Hope my little ones are ok.

Thank you all xx

That's the result of MB, your eyes are opening. The marriage builders plan is set up in a way to avoid personal damage and optimize your chances of recovery. Recovery doesn't necessarily mean recovery of the relationship/marriage, but personal recovery and knowing what your standards are/should be.
The program is slimmed down to the bare necessities and all shortcuts have been eliminated already. So be careful not to take any shortcut, it will seriously impact the effectiveness of the plan.

Hang in there!

Thanks Goody2shoes

I don't car what anyone says this is HORRIFIC. He came to the house today to pick up the children. He stayed at the end of the drive. I went straight out to the garden and had a cry, it was so beautiful out there sunny and frosty.. This is the most awful thing imaginable. Not to be a family.

I am sleeping pretty well considering and woke up this morning, fell back asleep and had this really weird sensation.. I had a dream of him coming into the house to taunt me and take some more stuff and i had this weird shivering almost coming off drugs sensation, like something was coming out of me. Weird. Like I was detoxing his abuse or something. The started to wonder how long that would take? I literally put up with it because I could not even imagine situations like today.

I really cant imagine what it is going to be like when he takes them away on holiday.

I actually needed a break from the children, it is harder being with them almost at the moment with all the questions and feeling so bad for them. It almost makes it worse looking at their little faces.

They have not actually asked for their Daddy all week. He has not seen them since Tuesday evening and he must be in bits. They were so excited when he turned up.

Today I will do some housework then go and see a friend.

forgot to defriend him on facebook - at about 1am this morning he liked a load of photos on my facebook page. Probably drunk.

I have shut down instagram and defriend him on fb, my privacy settings are quite tight.

I cannot believe the range of emotions this takes you through. I am not even thinking about the affair/OW hardly at all. All I can think of is how he has abused and treated me for at least 18 months. I actually want him to get this house. I have finally after not seeing him or speaking to him in only 6 days 'come to my senses'.

He dropped the kids off tonight at 6pm. He waited at the bottom of the drive. I saw his back and it made me shudder. How awful it has been. I could feel his anger towards me even then. He was always so so angry with me. The hot and cold, it has been terrible. It was like;

The constant thinking - is he going to want to be with me tonight? I hope he is drinking because then he will want to spend time with me, but then I hope not because the mood will follow.
The constant walking on eggshells, will he be angry with me if I haven't cooked dinner?
Will he be annoyed with me if I want to put the kids to bed early?
Will he be moody if I don't want to go to the party?
Why is he sleeping in the spare room? What have I done wrong?
Being annoyed with me for coming to bed too late.
Trying to figure out what I have done to annoy him today?
Scared to speak to another man in front of him incase what he will do to me and what he will do to them.
Comments on things I am wearing that he doesn't like.
Not showing any nod of appreciated for dinner/birthday & christmas presents/date nights i've arranged.
Putting me down in front of friends and family
Telling me I have OCD because I clean too much
Being afraid to go to him for any big decisions incase it made him angry

I am not sure what made him turn. Something did. I think either it was in his nature or he was generally fell out of love with me and I annoyed the h*ll out of him. He is a bully and of all people lives to give it the big I am as someone with strong moral code and family man. He always told me how much he hated bullies. He is the biggest bully I have ever met.

At least the kids had a good time today. They came home rosy cheeked and happy. DS told me that Daddy did not have another woman mummy - he took his friend out for coffee that was all.

With each passing day you will feel better. You are slowly coming out from under his shadow. Just don't make a decision yet about who gets the house. For now just concentrate on protecting yourself financially so that you have options. Your emotional state is too fragile. Give it time. The right solution will suddenly come to you - probably at 3am or in the shower.

Doing great so far!

Which IM are you using his or yours? It’s very important to do self-care while you’re in Plan B. Do you have anything planned for yourself?

Please refresh my memory. Did you give him a Plan B letter?

Thank you Living Well. I always remember what you told me in the beginning -

"Be strong Reasons, you are doing this for your children. It is incredibly important that they see you do this and that you tell them the truth about why".

Thats kept me strong.

Do you think that he will want to change? Have you had any success stories in this situation? I cant help wander how he must be feeling.

Hi BrainHurts

We are using my IM - he refused to do that initially but now that seems to be working fine. He has also been respectful dropping kids at the end of the drive ect...

No I have nothing planned yet. Its all feeling quite raw so I am spending most of my time with close members of my family. I did get out and see a couple of friends today. I haven't been and got anti-depressants yet, I was going to give it a week and see how I feel.

I haven't given him a Plan B letter - I haven't felt like doing that at all. I have had too much humiliation as far as he is concerned. Plan A for nearly for a year A. If he attempts contact or 'wants to talk' then maybe I will consider it then.

When the kids came back yesterday, they mentioned certain things. Like about OW and that he took her for coffee that was all and Daddy was living with Uncle.

Thank you, Reasons.

RW, that would be a terrible idea. Most waywards will "want to talk" when they see that you are serious about Plan B. It doesn't mean anything other than they don't like losing control of you. What Plan B specifies is sending a Plan B letter with your conditions. You shouldn't agree to even speak to him unless and until he meets all those conditions. Otherwise he is wasting your time and wrecking your emotions.

I will post a template you can use. In your case I would add the conditions Dr Harley told you to follow and that is a) anger management training, b) sobriety and c) eventually marriage in order to reconcile. If he won't meet those conditions you are better off without him. I would write your letter and post it here so we can give you feedback. Here is a template.

Sample Plan B letter, from SAA (revised edition) pages 77-78:

My Dearest __________,
I apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that helped make your affair possible. I foolishly pursued my goals without understanding my responsibility to meet your most important emotional needs. I was not there for you when you needed me the most and we are now both suffering for my mistake. [Add your willingness to address other complaints that the unfaithful spouse may have communicated prior to the affair.]

I am willing to avoid the mistakes I've made in the past and create a new life for both of us that will meet your needs. But I cannot do that until you end your relationship once and for all. Living with you under these conditions has been the most painful experience of my life, and I can no longer endure it.

Until your affair ends, and you are willing to follow a plan of reconciliation with me, I will avoid seeing you or talking to you. Our friends, ________, have agreed to help make arrangements for you to see our children on schedule that is mutually convenient. They will provide transportation. If you want to communicate about the children or any other matter, it will have to be through them.

I ask that you respect my decision to separate from you th is way. You must know about the suffering I have endured because of your relationship, and I simply cannot be with you any longer knowing that you are together. I still love you but I cannot see you under these conditions.

As soon as you are willing to permanently end your relationship, follow precautions to avoid absolutely any contact with the other person, and join me in a plan to restore our relationship, I will be wiling to discuss our future together with you.

I hope that we will be able to rebuild our marriage some day. I want us to be able to meet each other's emotional needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. We can build a new lifestyle together in which everything we do makes us both happy. Then there will never be a reason for us to be separated. I want to be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you to be my best friend.

I cared for you when we married and I continue to care for you right up to this day. But I cannot be with you or help you as long as you are in this relationship.

With all my love,
(signed)

This letter should be delivered by your friends to the unfaithful spouse, and a copy sent to the lover with a note at the bottom saying:

I love ______ with all my heart and am willing to do whatever it takes to make her happy. I will wait for that chance.

I had my first full nights sleep last night and feeling so much better and calmer. Each day dawns on me how awful its been and how the OW was really the push to do what I should have done ages ago.

Even thought more sensibly about a long term visitation schedule and what it would like.

I feel this is also about protecting my children from him - so I now thinking he could have them every other weekend Friday after school until Sunday 4pm? Also one night after school job done?

Still off food and lost a little weight but making myself eat 3 meals a day as I sleep better.

What do I tell my friends? I expose the affair to his friends but none of mine.

I am unsure whether he has rented the house as he told to my IM. He told the children that he will be living with their Uncle for the moment and made no mention of a new house to them. My DS said that he thinks Daddy wants to talk to you and come home. Bless him, this is horrible for them.

Thank you all for your support

Reasons.

You need to expose to your friends as well. It always helps to have more support.

Did you see MelodyLane’s post about the Plan B letter? Did you write one yet?

Also keep this in mind: you have to do this in a way that you don't see or speak to him. How would you handle your weekends when he has football? Could he pick your son up? Can you do the tradeoffs with no contact? That will be essential.


Tell them everything and ask for their support.


Coach your son to not bring you messages like that. Tell him if daddy says things like that, he is not allowed to pass on the message. The message has to go through your sister.

"dad, mom said I am not supposed to give her messages. Those messages need to go through Aunt XXX." And then if your son starts to tell you something like that again, wave your hand and remind him you don't want to hear it.

Did you see my post about the Plan B letter?

I am not doing very well this evening - after good start to the day for some reason I broke down in front of the kids. The tears actually flowed. I am so hurt by what he has done to us all, and I am mortified I did this in front of them.

My son who is 7 said I have never seen you cry are you ok Mummy and my daughter who is just an angel said mummy can I give you a hug. I told them I had a really bad headache and I am sorry I got upset. I am mortified they may tell Daddy. I am also being really bad in Plan B because this morning I asked the children questions about the visit with Daddy. I am even more mortified. I know I shouldn't do this.

Thank you for the post on Plan B Melody Lane. I actually can't think of anything worse than a Plan B letter - I just cant bring myself to do it. There is just too much humiliation involved. I have spent 2 years trying to make the situation to be something half decent and I just can't do it. Not yet. I cant see any future with him at the moment, I cant even bare to look at him when he drops the kids off.

I just don't feel like I am going to be able to hold it together. I am bouncing all over the place. its over and I just can't seem to be accept it, and I these children are going to be destroyed too. Particularly my son.

I still actually cant' believe this is happening to me and i just want it all to be over. Its a horrific nightmare. All i ever wanted in life was as a family and a home, and I am losing both. So out of my control I did everythin to try and make it ok, I thought we would be together forever. He doesn't even love me, was never in love with me, he just went along with it all so he could be near the children. The pain, humiliation and rejection is awful.

This is a man who has only even stayed away from his kids for a max of 2 nights. I can't believe he hasn't tried to fix the situation, that he has just said ok fine see you. Its public humiliation again and again.

I have deactivated facebook, I feel like I want to go in a protective bubble rather than face whats out there - the reality of the situation and people asking and knowing. I dont want to risk seeing something thats going to cause me pain. I haven't even faced the worse of it yet, like when he takes the kids out with our friends or gives them the most amazing bedroom in his new house. I just want to crawl under a rock and hide.

Climb the hill, write the plan B letter and stand your ground. After only one week in an air tight plan B, you will feel so much better. Remember the marriage builders plan is designed to give you maximum chances of succes while costing minimum pain. The sooner you plug all the holes in NC, the sooner you will recover.

This quote hit me today.
Problems should easily be solved within 6 months. If the problems persists, it is not your problem, but somebody else's solution.

Please consider getting a prescription for anti-anxiety/anti-depression for a few months. They will help you keep your negative emotions in check and ultimately may help you make better decisions than without them. It's a short-term remedy, not for life. You might feel as though you can push forward on your own without meds just fine, but now that your emotions are (understandably) volatile, meds may help you get some relief.

Please listen to the advice on the Plan B letter. Post it here for feedback.

Also please look into anti-depressants/anti-anxiety as LongWayFromHome recommended. It would just be temporary to help you get through this tough time.

Are you saying you’re seeing him at drop offs?

Hi MB

9 years today I met him - happy anniversary to me.

booked appt with Docs - never had to take meds before - quite scared about that - I am bit of a deal with it through natural therapy person.

Had a 24 hour breakdown ON Monday til about lunchtime yesterday. I was suppose to be going to london for a customer meeting and it was really stressing me out. 1 the affair was carried out in london and 2 i am not good in stressful customer situations at the moment. I cried my eyes out and there is a god after all as the trains were cancelled on the way to london so didnt go. I have cleared my diary for the next couple of weeks so I havent got any stressful meetings to deal with.

BF dropped kids at bottom of drive last night and they get out of car and walked to the house so I am not even seeing him. They went out with him last night. I was really good and didnt ask any questions to find out what they did, then kissed son goodnight in bed and then he said 'mummy daddy told us that he did take out another girl and that he is not getting another house he is staying with uncle for now'. I got some relief from that I am sorry to say. A pain went away in my heart. He obviously said it over text to get me to capitulate? Only he would have an affair and then make threats - weird. DS also said that DD told Daddy you had a bad tummy and were upset and Daddy said to tell Mummy that I hope she is ok and feeling better.

DS is proving hard work, he is crying lots and having tantrums. They way he speaks to me is awful and I am having to set some boundaries with him. This morning I took his ipad off him because he was acting up, he told me he hated me and that he wants to live with Daddy. I ignored it. Now its really about the children and what it is doing to them. DS also got in trouble with the teacher yesterday aswell which is unusual.

Still dont want to do a Plan B letter, I will give him one but only if he attempts to make contact.

Thanks for all your help and posts.

I honestly don't think BF wants it to end, I think he is waiting for me to either calm down or capitulate so he can return home. The problem here is far deeper than just the affair. I think I need to email DR Harley to know how to deal with that part. He did say once you separate then to get back in touch and he will guide me through.

Read buyers, renters and freeloaders.

In chapter 7 'no such thing as a free lunch' it talks about Greg and Sue and that is basically BF and I down to a tee.

That Greg was the center of Sues life and warning signs happened like Greg being jealous of her friends at the start, and when Sue became a stay at home mum Greg became very critical of her, for example that she wasn't attractive enough or didn't have SF enough and would fly into a rage, or other methods of control like moods and coldness. That Sue became very anxious and depressed so decided to go back to work to regain financial control and that she no longer had to cater to Gregs demands because she had some more independance. How Greg didnt like her new independance and he became more demanding, disrespectful and angry.

I cannot believe how similar it is.

I am kidding myself aren't i? What an idiot. I need to move on.

If you're going through hell, keep going!

for some reason this made me chuckle - you have a sick mind Goody2shoes

Please schedule a meeting with the classroom teacher of each of your children to explain what is going on. It will be an enormous help to both the teacher and the children. A dialogue between you and teacher will allow him to support you.

Thank you Living Well

I did have a meeting with the the Head Teacher and made her aware. He seemed better today. I don't think I helped the situation by crying in front of him and then also snooping. DS went to football training tonight with BF and I didnt ask a single thing, I am proud. I am scared though for when they are going to tell me something terrible.

Had a good day today. Need to make some plans, also is this bad but I am always in when BF drops the kids home . Maybe I should arrange a sitter to go out so I look like I am having a life?

Credits go to Sir Winston Churchill.
Not to make it look like you have a life, but to shield you from contact. Knowing he is there will probably also make you anxious. No contact with him only a few yards away is still kind of flimsy. It would even be better if the sitter picked them up from sports.

Hi All

I always feel so low in the mornings (get better through the day) and then the kids come in and give me a cuddle and feel so much better. The kids seem much better and I think it is because I am not talking or snooping with them anymore. I think if they know that I am ok then they feel ok.

I dropped the kids off at school this morning and went to the gym for the first time since he left. Got stared at by 2 guys on the treadmill next to me - some attention felt good and boosted me a little I wont lie. Prob cause I have lost a little weight!

More thoughts on how controlling he was in the relationship and getting annoyed with myself for feeling so desperate over him. Girl do you like being abused?

So much stuff that was difficult to figure out when I was with him but seems much clearer now. It all started when I wanted a 3rd baby and he said no. I guess thats when he first thought I have something I can hold over her? I understand how everyone has choices but it was the heartless way he did it, almost goading me, if you'd have had SF with me more ect then you would have had that. So my giver went overboard to prove my love to him. He would walk into a room and pick up a baby and start cuddling it and making a fuss of little children, knowing how much I wanted another. He even said to me once if you would behave yourself you would have the lounge extension by now. I think he got so use to having power over me it made him really cocky almost I can do what the hell I want as I know she is sat at home waiting for me. Well not anymore!

There are a lot of things becoming clearer - how obssessed he was about getting both DS and DD into football - I even think that was his way of having control over them!

I have also started going into the office a bit more now, which I have actually enjoyed. He hated me going into the office, said he hated the company I worked for bit it was because I was around other men and he got very jealous and insecure.

I remember lying in bed having lots of heart palpitations and really bad anxiety when I was around him. I even went to the doctor to see if it was early menopause. BF even told me that something is not quite right with you.

BF texted my mother this morning with a video message of our DS singing happy birthday to her this morning. My mother has ignored it.

Another mother at the school came upto me and said this morning that BF has texted her saying can I have my football tickets you borrowed? This is the second time he has text her and she has already told him Reasons has them. Yes I do have the tickets, but should i ignore or give them to DS on Saturday?

Starting to get a feel for my new life.

RW, this is the beauty of Plan B. While it can be stressful at first, it isn't long before the cloud goes away and one starts seeing things in a new light. It will get better as time goes on as long as you stay dark. Thanks for the update, glad you are having a good day!

Your mother didn't ignore it enough, why did she tell you? You are in plan B and should be protected from this info.

Tell the other mom that he is cheating on you and you don't want contact. Sorry he is using her to get to you but you don't want to hear from or about him through others.

You have an IM for communication. IM = firewall. Only clean data gets through.

I have been doing great again today. Went to the gym then went to docs for anti ds.

She was a lovely female doctor and i ended up pouring my heart out to her about what has been going on.

She was just brilliant. I described the relationship and how it made me feel. She told me that I had been in a domestic abuse relationship and that what I had endured was coercive control. That everything had been about controlling me and gently nipping away at my confidence. Everything rang true. She recommended that I go through the natural grieving process and then come back in 2 weeks if i was really struggling then she would help me. I came out feeling like a brand new person.

I was doing great then stupidly looked at the rental site at a house I think he has been looking at and saw that its been taken off the market. All the anxiety has come back again and if he has rented out a house, I am gutted that he has done this without trying to break NC and also its going to break our childrens hearts. They think he will come back home . AHHHHHH so annoyed. I really can't believe he hasn't even tried even for the sake of his children, he has given up and hasn't even tried for them. For some reason this house renting thing is a really big stage for me to get through. I just cannot believe that he has accepted this situation. He LOVES his children and hardly spends a night away from them. DD asked if i was going to be with them tomorrow . Now panicking that I should have given him a Plan B letter, but still he has made no efforts on his part.

He is being very accepting of everything even all the IM requests - not arguing anything at all being totally compliant which is very unlike him.

The kids are with him overnight tomorrow.

He has by no means accepted the situation, he wants to get back to where he was. Nothing will change until he understands that where he was is never coming back. That realisation will probably not come to him until you have finally let go for ever.

Bullies compensate for their low self esteem by making those they are abusing feel inferior. Hard to change the habit of a lifetime. Don't feel bad about the children, they will be better off with more distance.


He is planning the next move. Stay strong

I want to stay strong, but it hurts.

He told the OW that he was mad about her. He was obviously falling in love with her. When I confronted him he said that things hadn't been right and he was going to tell me that he was going to move out.

He fell out of love with me a long time ago and clearly has been here for the children.

sometimes i think it would be better to be back with him than endure this pain. he always seems so strong. i think he accepted a long time ago he was there for the children.

I feel like breaking the Plan B - and liaising with him direct and then seeing if we can rebuild something from there. Maybe it is better for him to know that I still do care.

Everyone feels that urge, but it will pass. It you give in, you will get hurt and regret it.

Going back to an abusive situation once makes getting out the next time more difficult.

Think of your relationship as a burning house. Is the fire out? If not, why go back?

Are you taking care of the legal side of the separation?

He already knows you care for him. The problem is that he doesn't care. If he cared, he would move mountains to get back. Reaching out to him will only result in some very hurt feelings. Don't put yourself through that.

Agree with the others that he already knows. If you had written a Plan B letter you would have stated this.

Maybe this is a good time to write a plan B letter? It will lay out a path to reconciliation so you guys don’t skip any steps.

I can tell you when I was a kid when my Mom left and got us away from her abusive husband and then brought us back it was devastating because we thought the living nightmare was over but we were so wrong.

So received text message this morning from BF to IM confirming the address of his new house he will be living in. It is in the area he talked about moving to before Christmas, near where he has his boat ect...

This is a major milestone for me to get over.

When he came to pick up DD this morning DS came running up the drive Daddy has a new house but it is only temporary.

So sad, but relief that I have crossed this hurdle. I was dreading this news.

I am having to share his repeated attempts to contact me though other avenues. We are on a shared whatsapp group for DS football, i need to stay on it to be kept updated on football matches timings and locations. I have not sent any messages on it since he left. He has been sending loads of repeated messages on it all very jolly and high, yesterday he sent through loads of pictures of him and the children at the football.

Then yesterday on another whatsapp group that BF set up which includes all our family members - he sent out a video of him and DS at the football. I could not believe it. Even with everything going on, he sent a group which includes all our immediate family. Ofcourse I ignored it.

I guess he is saying - I/We are having a great time without you?

This morning, he responded to a message to the gardener (he comes weekly to maintain) saying that they need to have a chat in the week.

What is going on?

You can set up whatsapp in a way that you cannot be added to a group without your permission.

You are in constant contact at this moment.

Write a plan B letter. Change your nr. Make arrangements for exchanging the children that protect you from contact.

You really need to fill these holes so you stop being in contact with him. When will you be writing the Plan B letter?

Can’t your IM be part of the WhatsApp group for football? Then they get all the messages and forward any pertinent information onto you?

Reasonswhy, Plan B means going DARK. Completely. Those holes need to be blocked. Any necessary information should be screened through your IM. I would block him on Whatsapp and have your sister contact him and tell him that any pertinent info about your kids needs to come to her or you won't get it!