I am an ENFP, and my wife is an ISFJ. Right around the time we got married, my wife started using birth control pills and she gained a lot of weight over a short period of time, and then stopped taking the birth control. The damage had been done apparently, and for the next 8 years she could not have sex without horrible pain, and she never had any desire for intimacy in any way, either verbally or physically. Me, being the idealistic optimist I am, woke up every day expecting that day to be the day she could freely love me. I showered compliments on her, showed constant affection, both verbally and physically, and constantly encouraged her. When the frustration would reach a maximum for me, I would try to articulate what I needed. Primarily daily affirmation through words and affection and sexual desire. I pleaded with her to try and find out what was wrong, as I believed it was mental, but because of her introverted pessimistic nature, she would not open up to anyone about her problems, not even her doctor. At year 5 we went through the '5 love languages' course at church and discovered our love languages. Hers were 'acts of service' and mine was 'words of affirmation' with 'physical touch' coming in second. I was so excited to find this out and I was enthusiastic about our future. I really ramped up my help around the house and constantly looked for 'acts of service' I could perform to deposit into her love bank. None of this was reciprocated, however, and so the frustration continued. Around year 8 she began to lose weight and started thinking better of herself and the sex problems began to subside. Although it was far from what I desired, and there was still times of pain, it was getting better and that was extremely en-heartening and so my hope grew. In the summer of year 13, after all those years of most of my emotional needs going unmet, I was approached by a younger single woman who began immediately showering me with words of affirmation. In the beginning it was primarily surrounding my work, but it soon began to be more personal. She talked about how she had always hoped for a man like me, she communicated her envy for my wife, etc. It was as though I had never breathed before. I found I had no willpower in the matter, and over the next couple weeks I spoke to her every chance I got, and came to believe this was perhaps the way it was supposed to be. I became very confused and shameful because I was talking to another woman, and although the conversations never went beyond PG-13, I carried a tremendous amount of guilt. The first time I felt like I was being hit on by this woman, I went home and told my wife, hoping she might recognize I was desireable and maybe feel a little jealousy, and then reach out to me reminding me how much she was all the woman I ever needed. But unfortunately she only accused me of being flirty and probably sending signals to her which caused her to hit on me, and I was devastated. Within two weeks my wife saw a very non-romantic text to her and thought I was having an affair. Other than an occasional hug, the relationship was never physical, so thankfully that had not happened. By the end of the night my wife accepted full responsibility for the relationship, and express her sorrow for not meeting my needs all these years.

I was very angry and bitter over all the years my wife had failed to meet my needs, but I was optimistic that now she understood what I needed, she COULD meet them now. Immediately she could not get enough of me. Touching me, talking to me, wanting to have sex constantly. I struggled with the feeling that she only was doing this because her own security was threatened, and not because she loved me and wanted me whole. I felt like her motives were all wrong and I was angry for it having to come to this in order for her to respond.

Within a month I had completely bought into her desire for me and over the next 6 months things could not had been better. Although she still was not very good at words of affirmation, the sex and affection was enough to over shadow that. As the intensity began to wain I found myself sort-of empty again and wondering what was going on. The sex and affection was still good and frequent, however less intense, but the words just were not coming. Remember, my primary love language is words of affirmation. So once again I expressed my desires to her, and it was a disaster. Over the next month it was tense and lots of emotion.

We went to counseling and our conselor took me aside and explained to me that because of my wife's personality type, she is never going to be able to openly express with words the kind of affirmation and affection I desire. She indicated that it was a 'pandora's box' to try and MAKE her do it, and it could actually make things worse. She actually recommended NOT continuing counseling because of the kinds of self-actualization my wife would have to do would be so painful the marriage might not survive.

My wife does not today, and has never had anyone in her life in whom she shares her deepest thoughts or feelings, including me, and she never has. I have lots of people with whom I share everything, but she is not one of them because it is not a safe place for them.

What do I do???

Hi Steve, welcome to Marriage Builders. Yours is a really interesting read because it is amazing to see how these various resources, Love Languages, Personality typing, marriage counseling, your semi-affair completely missed the mark and tapdanced around the one thing that could create desire in your wife: romantic love. None of those things will create the one thing that is necessary to have a happy, fulfilling romantic marriage.

For example:
People do not fall in love over "acts of service." They call in love when their INTIMATE EMOTIONAL NEEDS are met. My cleaning lady cleans the house for me and I am not in love with her even though domestic support is one of my needs. Anyone can do this for your wife and I assure you it will not cause her to fall in love with you. That is because it is not an intimate emotional need.

People fall in love when their intimate emotional needs are met: conversation, affection, sexual fulfillment and recreational companionship. It takes 15 hours per week of undivided attention per week meeting those needs to maintain romantic love and 20+ hours to create romantic love.

Here is a universal truth about women. They need 2 things to desire sex with a man: an emotional attachment to the man ["in love"] and the prospect of enjoyment. If either of those elements are not in place, they will want to have sex.

Secondly, while sexual fulfillment is likely not a top need for your wife, people in love have no problem meeting such a top need in their partners. So, if your wife was in love with you and you made sex enjoyable for her, she would likely desire sex with you.

How many hours ALONE together did you spend with your wife last meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs I described above?

Also, you are 1000% responsible for your inappropriate relationship with this woman. You can blame your wife for her part in your bad marriage, but you can NEVER blame her for your poor, inappropriate behavior wiht this other woman. You have poor boundaries with women outside of your marriage and that is a HUGE problem that is likely to lead to an affair unless you develop appropriate boundaries. You should NEVER allow anyone outside of marriage to meet your intimate emotional needs. That should come from your wife.

And I suspect this is part of the problem. You have allowed so many people to meet your various needs, that nothing she does has any meaning because she is continually competing with others. When one intimate emotional need is met outside of marriage, the others are soon to follow!

It is your job as a married man to protect your boundaries.

If you want your wife to be in love with you, then you need to STOP blaming her for this inappropriate relationship. Doing that is a lovebuster that can only serve to erode the love she does have.

And here is an article by Dr Harley that explains how to resolve your marriage problems: The question of the ages: How can a husband receive the sex he needs in marriage?

That is a terrible way to get your wife to meet your needs. And as you have found, it is not sustainable. She only met your needs under duress, not because she had romantic feelings for you.

Quality time is of utmost value to me, over the first 13 years, all I wanted to do was spend time with her. In every other area of our relationship we have been best friends. We love the same music, movies, food, etc. We love to do the same things and we have the same views of childrearing, spirituality, etc. It is only in this area of intimacy where my wife seems to have blockages.

Romance her you say? Poems, flowers, affection, back rubs, holding hands, hugging, kissing, lots of sexual AND non-sexual touching. Compliments, affirmation, her being my number one priority in every area of my life. I literally woke up every day with nothing on my mind other than romancing her into desiring me...And yet nothing worked. I am athletic, well-built, and often physically complemented man. I am successful at work, and provide very well for us. I am a focused father who loves to have fun with the kids, but I also help them with homework, etc. and love to read to them. My wife shares all of these values and she has never had a complaint about me in any of these areas.

In regards to the other relationship, I never blamed her for it, I just said she took responsibility for it. I was quick to accept responsibility for my own actions, but she expressed her own recognition that the emotional needs being unmet are what led to the relationship in the first place.

Boundaries you say? I had NEVER had inappropriate interaction with a woman before. It was only after years and years of constant rejection and frustration was I at such a weakened state.

You make a blanket statement about women concerning romance, but you much more describe me than my wife...

Then what would you suggest?

I didn't say romance her. I said she needs to be IN LOVE with you. And apparently you are doing the wrong things and/or not in the right quantity because the proof is in the pudding. I said spend 20+ hours of UA time with her. THAT will cause her to have romantic feelings. \

You have been trying the WRONG things. And I can see why those things have not worked.


Making her take responsibility for it is to blame her. And is a HUGE LOVEBUSTER. She is not responsible for your poor boundaries, you are. What led to the affair was your own poor boundaries. It would have never happened if you have appropriate boundaries around women. Sure, you were vulnerable. But vulnerabilility warrants tighter boundaries, not looser boundaries.


But you had inappropriate boundaries with this interaction with woman. Doesnt matter if you had them before.


Thats ok, I was talking about your wife. That is the issue here.

To work the MB program and make a fantastic marriage.

Listen, read and educate yourself. Ask questions and implement the program.

Create a romantic marriage so she falls in love with you. Start scheduling 20+ hours of undivided attention time per week, without children, without friends, meeting the 4 intimate emotional needs of affection, conversation, sexual fulfillment and recreational companionship. Set up 4 - 4 hour dates per week. Actually sit down every Sunday night and schedule out your time for the next week, writing out times, dates and planned activities. Dress up and take her out on the town.

During this time, she needs to agree to meet your needs for sexual fulfillment too, but it needs to be done in a way that she ENJOYS. Be very sure that she enjoys the sexual relations and avoid anything that is unpleasant for her.

Implement Dr Harley's other basic concepts such as the policy of joint agreement, etc and you will see big changes. You will find yourself in a fulfilling, romantic marriage. Check this out, because it is very true:

And see, none of this would have any effect if she were not in love. In fact, it probably repelled her! In order to be in love you have to spend 20+ hours per week meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs.

As long as this is all you have on your mind, it's no wonder you aren't getting any.

You're serving her up a great big plate of PRESSURE 24/7.

Mel's absolutely right. Start spending LOTS of one on one time w/ her.

You are trying to take short cuts to SF. And as you can see, that's not working for you.

Instead of blaming your wife for not meeting your needs...or suggesting that there is something wrong w/ her, why not admit that neither one of you have been meeting the other's needs?

Stop the blaming altogether. And put all your energy into working Marriage Builder's plan.


It's not "clear communication" that will get your EN's met. It's spending lots of alone time having fun together that will.

I was probably unclear earlier. Spending lots of time together laughing, joking, and having all manner of fun together has never been a problem. If we started spending 20 hours a week together we would have to spend LESS time than we do now. We are probably together about 30 hours a week now.

I never put pressure on her to desire me, I simply met all of her emotional needs everyday. She agrees to this and says she has never known or been aware of any needs unmet by me.

I think this will just turn into a big debate about who does what, and I don't want to that. I just hoped that you guys might offer some insight into my wife's lack of being able to communicate emotions and feelings. It's not because of me. She communicates 10 times better today than she did 14 years ago, and she credits my loving her unconditionally and always meeting er every need that has drawn her out of her shell.

In regards to the other relationship thing, I'm going to say it one more time. I never blamed her, nor have I required her to take any responsibility for it whatsoever. What I am saying is that she took responsibility nonetheless. Even this website talks about affairs only happen when emotional needs go unmet, so she is not wrong to consider herself at least some part of the problem.

Anyway, thanks for everyone's time, I will take it from here...

So you are out on DATES alone for 30 hours a week? Where do you go? And I take it you hire babysitters? I sort of doubt that. What activities EXACTLY are you counting as undivided attention time? I don't think you understand what we mean when we refer to undivided attention time.

And if you actually ARE getting in that much time, which I highly doubt, then what you are doing are NOT the right things because they are missing the mark. You are doing things *YOU* believe will cause her to fall in love and not things that will actually achieve that.


No, it does not say that affairs happen ONLY when needs go unmet. We have cases here where needs WERE met to perfection and because the wayward spouse had sloppy boundaries, they had an affair. My husbands needs were met 100% and he had an affair. You have sloppy boundaries around women and if that is not addressed, you will have an affair. You have to accept responsibility for that.

We have told you the problem. People who are in love have no problem "communicating." We are trying to help you focus on the right thing. Do you want what we have or not? You are NOT meeting her needs in an effective manner that will result in her falling in love. That is because you are flying BLIND and guessing at what to do. ]

Do you want to listen to people who ARE in love?

Will you follow some assignments if we give them to you?

Your wife also thought that SHE was responsible for your "other relationship thing". AND she thought that if you helped her w/ more housework she would fall in love w/ you and want to give you SF.

SO...*if* she believes you "met ALL of her EN EVERYDAY", there's a good chance she is wrong about this too.

Steve, many women don't know WHY they don't want to have SF w/ their H. Very often they blame it on being tired, and then they ask their Hs to "help more around the house" hoping that then they'll be less tired and more willing to add one more "chore" to their list of duties.

When a woman feels LOVED, she will never look at SF as just another chore to cross off her list.


But, you could have corrected her, Steve. YOU could have said, "No, dear, YOU are not responsible for MY getting close to another woman, I AM."

She is 50% responsible for the condition of your marriage, but YOU are 100% for the "other relationship thing."


WE did. YOU just choose not to hear us.

AS long as she is willing to take 100% of the responsibility for the condition of your marriage, you are going to let her.

If I had to carry 100% of the responsibly of my marriage, I'd contract/w/draw from my H too.

EXACTLY!

And, Steve, it is most likely that your wife doesn't even know what she wants or needs from you to make her fall back in love w/ you.

Most people don't know there is a formula to fall in love.

And, Steve, when I asked my husband what EN's of his I wasn't meeting...or could meet better, he told me I was meeting his needs perfectly.

I KNEW that wasn't true. It was his way of not engaging w/ me. He didn't know where this might lead or what he might have to do.

Also, when I read what disrespectful judgments were I learned how much I'd been destroying his love for me.

Do you know what disrespectful judgments are?

Here's why I don't believe that you never blamed her...

Earlier you said:
When you tried to manipulate your wife into having more SF w/ you by telling her that another woman hit on you, you were "devastated" when she called you out for your part in it.

THen you said:
So you gave yourself permission to continue your "relationship" w/ this woman another 2 weeks b/c your wife's reaction to the news was "devastating" to you.

After she found out you were texting the very woman, who hit on you, she asked you if you were having an affair. Which you absolutely were. And some how... "By the end of the night my wife accepted full responsibility for the relationship, and express her sorrow for not meeting my needs all these years."?

Somehow, you had blame shifted your affair onto your wife.

Are you still in contact w/ the other woman?

Does she work w/ you?

Wow. Melody I figured as much from your original post. You seemed to come across as a victim of an affair, and it is evident in your first reply to me. I can sense your projecting your feelings about your husband to me, and I can certainly appreciate why you would do that. These feelings you have are extremely powerful, and they are not turned off quickly.

The primary difference is that, unlike your husband, I did not have an affair, the communication with this woman only lasted about 2 weeks, and I ended the relationship. I made the right choice and stopped it from becoming something that could have really caused some trouble in my life. This is to be celebrated.

I find it fascinating that you guys agree that my wife's behavior is solely my responsibility, and that the reason she has not responded to me for 13 years has been because of all the things I am doing wrong, or all the things I am not doing right. However, when it comes to my behavior for a two week period, it is solely my responsibility, and it would be wrong for me to hold her responsible for any aspect of it. That is simply insanity. None of us live in a vacuum, and of course my wife's lack of energy, passion, and love toward me would have an impact on my own feelings and actions, it is inevitable.

But also, I find that you guys also don't listen very well. I explained very truthfully my situation, and yet you challenge elements of it as though I am trying to manipulate or paint a false picture of what is going on. Both of our parents live within 5 miles of us, so yes, we have babysitters readily available who are enthusiastic about having them, so we really do spend upwards of 30 hours a week together alone. You ask what we do, I will list it...

Going out to eat
Staying home in the bed and watching movies/tv / having sex
Going shopping
Long walks
etc. etc. etc.

These are all things we both love to do, and when we are watching anything it's always things she wants to watch, which in turn are things I want to watch also. We go to the restaurants we both love, we talk about things that she values. Lots of touching, holding hands, kissing, and my language is threaded with terms of endearment and compliments...

Sex is not the issue, it is words of affirmation. Her articulating her feelings and thoughts for me in words. She is desperately in love with me, and yet she can't articulate it.

I have always been affectionate, complimentary, encouraging, and I have never spoken a negative or abusive word to here EVER, even in a heated argument I have never lost my temper and I have never said anything to hurt her.

You guys still think I am the problem though, huh?

If I'm reading you correctly, Steve, the EN that is not being met for you is not sex, it is admiration.

MelodyLane asked you whether you would complete some assignments if we set them for you, but you haven't replied. I would rephrase this question to ask whether you and your wife would complete the MB assignments that are available as part of the home study course. This is a course that takes about year to complete, and you are both given assignments to carry out weekly. The tasks consist of practical work that you do every day to meet the ENs of both spouses. If your wife would agree to sign up to the course, she would sign a commitment to rebuilding your marriage and meeting your ENs, and you would do the same for her.

I am hopeful that since she has done the Love Languages course and counselling before, that she would be willing to try Marriage Builders. If you feel that you would like a coach (very different from a counsellor) to guide you through the programme and help you with problems implementing it, you should sign up for the online version. For either version, click the "courses, seminars and accountability" link in the red area at the top of every page. My H and I are currently doing the online course, and the practical tasks that we do have changed our marriage beyond recognition. I highly recommend the course, especially if you have a reluctant spouse.

I'm going to give you tip tip, although you did not ask for one: don't be rude to posters who come to your aid. You know nothing about MelodyLane's feelings about her husband and you should not attempt amateur diagnosis of why she gave her advice. She, like many people on this board, has recovered her marriage and has experienced getting it wrong, and getting it right. You should be prepared to learn from her and others here.

Lastly: you DID have the affair. Intimate conversation with a woman who is not your wife, and emailing and eventually hugging, is an emotional affair, and that can be just as destructive to a marriage a a physical one. At the risk of being accused of projecting my feelings onto your wife, I can tell you that an affair is one of the most powerful ways in which you could have obliterated any sense she ever had that you were admirable, and any willingness on her part to meet your need for admiration today. Admirable is as admirable does, and going outside your marriage to get your needs met generates feelings of disgust, not admiration, in the betrayed spouse.

I don't condone your wife's refusal to meet any of your ENs, if indeed she is refusing as I suspect. Paying you back for the rest of her life for the betrayal is no way to run a marriage. She cannot be happy doing this (I know I wasn't), and she could be happy again - and more than before - if she learns about and practices mutual EN-meeting. She needs to be sold the benefits of a happy marriage. Your marriage can't be happy for her if it isn't for you, so her carving out her own space and saying "this is what I will give and no more" is ultimately backfiring on her.

Try and respectfully persuade her to sign up for the course.

Well, I think your arrogance is a problem. You have described yourself as the unbelievably perfect husband, who is already doing every last thing - including 30+ hours per week UA time - perfectly. You have set your whole problem up so that you are PERFECT and your wife is completely at fault. Even your affair is irrelevant and when posters try to tell you about the unresolved effect it has had on your marriage, you call them bonkers - in a nutshell.

You need to lose the attitude. Brushing off your affair and insisting that you are the perfect husband is an indication that you are not listening to how your wife feels about the marriage, and now she is in withdrawal from you.

I'm sure you'll tell me that she thinks the marriage is wonderful - because she has the perfect husband.

In my experience, the clueless husband very often is the problem.

Signed,
A Clueless Husband

P.S. This site is a plan for how to develop cluefulness.

Your subject line:


In other words, you gave her an ultimatum, and she didn't respond well.

It turns out, women don't respond well to ultimatums.

What they do respond well to is someone who has a full account in their Love Bank.

Men are able to meet the emotional needs of someone they are not in love with far more easily than most women. Most women need to feel an emotional bond with someone before they will even believe it is possible to meet their needs.

So the rational solution is for you to learn to meet her needs first, learn to make massive Love Bank deposits every day, and reevaluate her willingness AFTER that has occurred.

Since you quoted me, I think you may have confused Mel's posts from mine. I am not a victim of an affair. So your "senses" about my projected feelings is off. I am the one who had an emotional affair. Same as you!


Are you still in contact w/ this woman???? Does she work w/ you??? It isn't enough to end the relationship, you need to establish no contact w/ this person for life.

Have you done this????


No one said your wife's behavior is solely your responsibility. Nor has any one said the reason she has not responded to you for 13 years has been because of all the things you are doing wrong...or all the things you are not doing right.

Try not to offend yourself w/ our posts and read them believing that we are actually trying to help you. They will read very differently if you do.


Then why didn't you correct her when she took 100% of the blame for your affair?


Never is an awfully big word. You keep painting yourself as a perfect husband, and your wife as a broken woman. Do you believe that seeing your wife as a broken woman is complimentary? Do you believe that allowing her to take 100% of the blame for your affair was NOT abusive? Do you think trying to manipulate her into having more SF w/ you by telling her about another woman hitting on you, was encouraging to her?

Yes, absolutely. And keep in mind the folks who recognize this are those who have happy, fulfilling marriages. So you can dismiss our advice and make armchair diagnoses all you want, but the fact remains that we have want you want. Your best thinking has screwed up your marriage yet you continue to rely on the same instincts that have led you wrong in the past. How smart is that?

You continue to go on about all the wonderful things you do for your wife but don't seem to grasp that those things have not worked FOR YOU. So why not listen to others? Or are you only here for validation?

If do it yourself does not work, you might want to check into the online program so you can get professional guidance. Those of us here with happy, recovered marriage have gone through this ourselves.

Holy lordy...

First of all, of course I have no contact with this woman. I figured that one out on my own...

Of course I corrected her when she accepted responsibility for the affair. But she of her own free will continues to accept that responsibility. I completely pulled her off any hook she set herself upon. I made it completely clear that she carried no responsibility for my actions. Can we put this one to bed now? I have communicated this already...

I use never on purpose, and I mean it. Why would it be hard to believe that I have NEVER been ugly to her? The reason you guys are saying this is because it would then make no sense for her to be unresponsive to me, but that is the case nonetheless.

The reason I told her that this woman was hitting on me was because I believe in honesty and openness in the relationship, and I wanted her to know this was happening. Of course I expected her to be a support and recognize why a woman would be interested in me and then communicate that. In 13 years she probably complimented me a dozen times, so I was so starved for any type of positive communication, I hoped she would take that stance, and she did not. It was not manipulation, it was honesty.










[/quote]

Goodness sakes, of course I did not give her an ultimatum. What you describe about men and women is the opposite in our case. I am the one who needs the emotional bond. And yes, her emotional love bank is full, and always has been, and she agrees to this... She just has no capacity to communicate feelings and affection with words, and that is what I am trying to get you guys to help me with.

Wow! Man you guys are judgmental... The only attitude you guys perceive in my writing comes from the accusatory statements regarding my actions or participation in my marriage. Don't forget that it is I who am here trying to understand how to make things better... I just don't perceive much understanding or support... There are so many matter-of-fact statements being made trying to oversimplify something that could not be more complicated...

You don't get it. Almost everything in my marriage could not be better. We are continually used as a model for the successful marriage by close friends and family. It is only in this 'words of affirmation' thing that my wife has had a failure.

My question originally was, which no one has seemed to want to answer, is what do you do if your spouse does not have the capacity to provide you with the emotional stuff you need?

This is not the case. She is not refusing but rather has no capacity to do what I desire. She has no capacity to think of complimentary words and articulate them to me verbally. It's not a refusal, but seems to rather be a handicap.

Again, this is not exactly true. The only times in our marriage where we have had major problems, are always when I am open and honest with her about my feelings and desires. If I keep them to myself she is happy as a clam. In my selfless desire to be what she needs regardless of what I need, I have tried to maintain my silence so that she can go on and be happy and fulfilled. Our professional marriage counselor has agreed this is the better path since she does not have the ability to self-actualize and overcome this introverted inability to communicate and articulate feelings and emotions...

You are still not listening to us as we have answered this question several times. You are not a model for a successful marriage; your marriage is an unhappy one by your own admission. Your spouse does have the capacity to make you happy and so do you, if you do the right things. You are not doing the right things. If you were doing the right things, you would have a happy marriage.

Also, are you still in the touch with the woman with whom you had an inappropriate relationship?

I appreciate everyone's responses, and I will go back over them in more detail so I can attempt to put them into use in my marriage. If I have offended anyone or said anything that came across as arrogant or selfish, please forgive me. My desire is to only learn how to better love the woman God has given to me, with the hopes that she might figure out how to best love me as well. Thanks again...

That sounds simple enough, but unfortunately it just isn't true. She would also need to be doing the right things...

Of course not...

You are going to have to quantify this statement. How can you say that with complete assurance?

If the only deposits that meet my EN are quarters, and all she has is dimes, how does she have the capacity to meet my EN?

As is true with most marriage counselors, they don't have the slightest idea how to create a happy, romantic marriage. And the proof is in the pudding. They have an 84% failure rate and have a higher personal divorce rate than the general population.

What your MC has advocated is an obstacle to intimacy because unspoken issues lead to a lack of intimacy. As you can see, this has not made your marriage happy.

A better solution is for you to tell your wife what is wrong so she can learn to meet your needs in an effective, productive way. That is what this program does.

And yes, I suspect your wife might be happy. But she is not in love. She is in a state of withdrawal if she is made happy by your silence.

Again, sounds great, and simple. However she has no desire to go through the emotional turmoil it would require for her to come face to face with the realities of who she is and what she would be required to do.

So she has no desire to learn to meet my needs in an effective, productive way. Now what?

Because if you do the right things, you will fall in love. But you need to read the material here so you can understand how love is created. So far, you have been flying blind with hit or miss programs, but if your efforts were directed strategically, you would see a difference.

Do yourself a favor and read up on the program so you can understand how a person falls in love. Once you really understand that, you can become an expert at meeting each others needs.

Does she work w/ you?


Yeah, I'm not buying this.


Actually you communicated something very differently in an earlier post.


The reason it is difficult to believe that you have been the perfect husband is b/c of what you have already told us. Believing your wife is broken is off the charts disrespectful. And harmful to your marriage.

To borrow a phrase of yours, can we put this delusion of yours to bed now?


You may believe in honesty and openness, but you certainly aren't practicing it now. You were more honest and open in your original post when you said, "The first time I felt like I was being hit on by this woman, I went home and told my wife, hoping she might recognize I was desireable and maybe feel a little jealousy, and then reach out to me reminding me how much she was all the woman I ever needed. But unfortunately she only accused me of being flirty and probably sending signals to her which caused her to hit on me, and I was devastated."

Also, were you practicing honesty and openness in your marriage while you continued contact w/ this woman for two weeks?

Can you please get real here? You are being dishonest and it is only hurting you. You will never get rid of the your shame until you get real about what happened. Get real about the lies you have told yourself and others.

Shame will eat you up alive if you don't.

This is precisely what was done in a very loving, kind, and gentle way for 13 1/2 years, never to any avail. It was only when she thought her security was threatened that she responded.

I wouldn't either if my husband told me I "had to come face to face with realities of who I am and what I would be required to do!" Are you kidding?

That is no way to sell any program and has absolutely nothing to do with MB. People buy things when they see a perceived benefit. What is her benefit?

I have seen how you "sell" things in this thread so I understand completely why she ran from that.

Again, when do it yourself doesn't work, its time to try something else.

Are you willing to go through the emotional turmoil it would require for you to come face to face w/ the realities of who you are and what you would be required to do?

Do you have any desire to learn to meet her needs in an effective, productive way?????

For Marshmallow...

No she does not work with me, but she previously worked in a department I dealt with often. She has since left that department. I work for a very large organization and it was not difficult to stop any and all contact with her.

I can't help you if you won't believe me about the blame stuff. You will just have to believe what you want. I have been completely honest about how that went down.

Just because I have never said anything ugly to my wife certainly does not make me the perfect husband. But it is important you guys see the truth about my situation. When it comes to the treatment of my wife, you are going to be hard-pressed to find a more affectionate, sweeter, kinder, and gentler man than I. Especially with words. But I follow them up with deeds also. I would not, and have not, ever tried to hurt my wife on purpose, either with words or actions, and she knows and agrees with this.

I'm not carrying any shame at all. I came clean about the ordeal, shared it openly with my wife, received forgiveness from her and God, and have moved on.

The sentence you quoted still rings true with what I said a second ago. My primary motive was that I don't want to hide anything from my wife, and the second motive was my hopes that she would see me as a desirable man. She has never made me feel desirable, and all I ever wanted was to be wanted by her.

This other woman just happened to be there to pet me after being hit in the head with a 2x4 for 13 years. Simply a moment of weakness and some bad decisions. Am I still being dishonest??

It is this attitude that is likely the source of your problems. You have sold her marriage improvement programs in the past as a way to "fix" her. No one is going to buy that. No one wants to be told they are WRONG and they don't like to be educated. I can tell you have been doing that for a long time.

And I am not buying that you spend 30 hours of undivided attention time per week out on dates. That just doesn't add up. I get the sense that you are defensive whenever anyone points out you are wrong that you have become an evolving story.

I also see in this thread how well you listen [not!] and how you like to argue about everything. Do you behave that way at home?

Gosh, that's ugly. Would you mind elaborating on this?

I suppose you are drawn to people who are ugly and manipulative, rather than kind and compassionate?

I don't have any answers for you Steve.

I would say that my biggest need is also 'admiration' and that my wife (upon reading his needs/her needs together) seemed to say what you are saying your wife is saying "I'm just not that type of person" or "I'm just not built to say those things".

I don't understand it any better than you seem to (meaning that I don't know the answer - or if it's possible that my wife is either wrong (she can be that type of person) or that my wife could see things in such a way as to change))

In any case, what I think the people here are telling you is that you are focusing on a single leaf...but you should be focusing on the entire tree.

Not a great analogy, I'm sure.

You still aren't listening. "she has no desire to go through the emotional turmoil it would require for her to come face to face with the realities of who she is and what she would be required to do" <- This is coming from her, not me. SHE says this... This is not my perception, this is her reality.

We have actually gone through all of the EN articles together on this site, in addition we have gone through many different articles that we felt like related to us. We've done this together, out loud. When we talk about the EN stuff, she is quick to admit the ares she does not have the ability to meet me in. So again, this is not some perception...

30 hours alone only equates to about 4 1/2 hours a day. We average about 3 hours a night, and then on the weekends probably more than double that. So why does it not add up? When we are at home, we are together. Touching, laughing, talking. So no, it may not be a date where we are out spending money, but it is intimate time together.

"Like to argue about everything" <- Goodness sakes, I hate arguing! I have had no desire to argue from the beginning of this thread. It is you guys telling me I am lying, trying to list all the reasons I am a [censored] guy, and so yes, I find it important to try and correct your posture or perception so that you can have the right perspective to better offer advice or insight. But the constant barrage of insults is a bit off-putting.

"Do you behave that way at home?" <- Statements like that try to paint the picture that you could empathize with my wife not reaching out to me in love because I am somehow irritating or something to that effect. It is difficult to not take that kind of thing personal, so forgive me if I have misread your intent.

The bottom line is this. I am a wounded man carrying many years of destructive speech and terrible rejection. All I have ever wanted was to freely love my wife and meet her every whim and have her reciprocate. I have tried to, in a nutshell, share my situation, but 14 years is hard to consolidate into a single post... I would just appreciate some supportive comments mixed with some empathy for my situation, and some good-old benefit of the doubt.

Read my post again. I explained exactly what I mean.

No one can help you if you don't listen. Read the material and read the posts again rather than being defensive and argumentative.

Believing your wife is broken is not sweet, kind or gentle.

Having an EA is not a sweet, kind, or gentle deed.


You can't BS a BSer, Steve. I've been where you are. I know what I'm talking about. Every dishonest post of yours is reeking of shame.

Stop torturing yourself and get real.


There's that word never again. She has NEVER made you feel desirable? Not even when you were dating? Or first married?


Only to yourself, b/c no one here is buying it.

Do you realize how much you contradict yourself from one post to the other? You just got done trying to convince us that you didn't let your wife take the blame for your affair, and yet here you are blaming her for it again! "This other woman just happened to be there to pet me after being hit in the head with a 2x4 for 13 years."

LMBO @ "to pet you after being hit in the head with a 2x4 for 13 years" What a dramaqueen!

I'm telling you how to get there, but the first thing you need to realize is that you guys are probably quite mistaken about your account in her Love Bank being full.

If you are correct, then it's a simple matter of just working this program together so that both of you can better learn to meet each other's emotional needs. Problem solved, end of story, get to it, and enjoy the happily ever after!

If I'm correct, then it's a matter of the two of you making several changes to your lifestyle as suggested by this program so that the Love Bank deposits you are making now (which you both think are large) can be multiplied several hundred fold.

How many hours a week do the two of you spend together?

By the way, I strongly encourage you to quit reacting so strongly to what people post. Your strong reactions are causing you to focus more on your reaction than on listening, and you are missing much valuable help. Even if you don't agree with what people are saying, I encourage you not to react so strongly and defensively. It's not the end of the world if somebody reads your situation wrong, you know?

And your kids are gone every night?

I will try to do that. Thanks again everyone...

Perhaps I will come back down the road and share any insights into how we solved our issues. Thanks again.

These capacities are learned and grown, they are not inborn. She will almost certainly learn this capacity when the deposits you are making go up.

During the week, they are typically gone two or three nights, yes. When they are home they are in bed by 8 or 8:30 and we don't usually go to bed until 11 or 11:30... On the weekends they are often at friends or families houses all day... So there are some weeks we might have 40+ hours together... Does this straighten this out?

Hmm, I know you are trying to close that door politely, but it really sounds like what you are saying is that you are not here to receive insight, but to give it. Which is really pretty arrogant, isn't it?

Sorry, not buying it. First off, time late at night after the kids are in bed is not quality UA time. Just being alone in front of the boob tube is no UA time. That is when you are most tired at the end of your day. It is easy to get interrupted when you are home and the phone rings and there is unwashed clothes in the dryer. Quality UA time is spent outside on dates in 2 to 4 hour blocks throughout the week.

I don't believe any more that you are here seeking answers, but rather validation for your existing ideas. You don't have an open mind and are not seeking answers.

My wife also leaves a lot of her feelings and desires unexpressed and unarticulated, and I have never heard Dr. Harley refer to her in such a way! It sounds like your professional marriage counselor is clueless about how to fix your marriage, and is blaming his/her cluelessness on your wife being "damaged goods." Wow. I'd fire that counselor.

btw, a primary reason my wife doesn't express her feelings and desires as much as I need in order to get the information I need to meet her needs -- is my own Love Busters, which have created an environment where she is not safe to articulate, express, and communicate.

Bottom line: you are judging your wife. This is the foundation for many other love busters you probably don't know you're engaging in. And your counselor is collaborating with you!

This is called "deflection." Your faults are brought up, and somehow the conversation gets from talking about your faults to talking about someone else's faults, in this case, MelodyLane's poor posting style.

The thing is, your faults are a hindrance to your marriage, and MelodyLane's posting style isn't a hindrance in your marriage, so if you want a better marriage, it's best to recognize when you are deflecting so you can avoid that and focus on what you can do better, i.e., facing and eliminating your faults.

Most of our time is not spent in front of the TV, however she does not value or enjoy intimate and heartfelt talking, she would rather talk about more superficial stuff, so when that runs out we like watching certain shows/movies together, but they are very much enjoyed together.


I'm sorry to hear it.

I'm sure someone else will correct me if I'm wrong - but per Dr. Harley's definition and recommendation of UA time (15-20 hours). Time spent watching television / movies does not count.

What I was trying to convey was that because of MelodyLane's own experiences, she was seeing me the same as her husband. Looking back, I think I confused her with another poster, and that's my bad. My point is, it seems rather important that the one providing the advice has a correct understanding of the facts and is not hindered by their own biased experiences, would you not agree?

If you want to label this 'deflecting' I can appreciate why you might see it that way, but my motive is to simply try to effectively inform everyone of the actual situation so that you can make judgements based on all the information...

If you were to read back over Melody Lane's posts all through these forums (60,000 of them!) - I think you would learn that she is one of the most 'expert' posters in terms of following and promoting Dr. Harley's plan for a successful marriage.

I don't know her personally, but from her posts, I believe she has come to this knowledge through her own experience and through consistent study of Dr. Harley's materials.

I don't fault you for 'assuming the worst' - but the person trying to help you is (imo) one of the best.

Steve, after reading your posts, I would suggest that you are the least objective person on this thread. And yes, I knew you were deflecting when you said that but I also understood that you were very defensive.

I hope you think about what we said here and come back with a more open mind tomorrow. You aren't going to get very far until you accept that your own way is not working. We are glad to help, but you have to listen to receive that help.

That's right, it doesn't count because it is not undivided attention. If you are watching the boob tube, your attention is on the TV. He is just adding up time they happen to be together and calling it UA time.

Actually what you are referring to was your first attempt at deflection.

You did not address the one that markos was referring to when he quoted what you more recently said to Mel:
As you can see, just like the first time, there was no attempt to "effectively inform everyone of the actual situation so that you (we) can make judgements based on all the information."

Don't judge yourself for deflecting, Steve. Just notice that you've done it. That alone will help you to hear what is being said to you better the next time.

Hi, Steve. I'm late reading your thread, so I apologize if I'm redundant. Welcome to Marriage Builders. Just so you know - these assignations are immaterial to us. They don't mean anything when it comes to recovering from an affair. So let's drop that and move on:
Ask your wife to come here.

I appreciate all the responses. I have changed my screen name in an attempt to avoid any repercussions from this thread. The last thing I need is my wife stumbling across any of this. If you guys don't mind, I would like to halt this thread from this point forward. I really do appreciate everyone's time and energy, and I will thoughtfully consider each and every post.

Thank you.

Why would it be a problem if your wife found this thread?

Actually what you need in marriage is to deal with the problems, respectfully and openly. So I would tell her everything you told us here.

As far as halting the thread, that's easy: just quit posting. But it probably won't help any of your issues. And "thoughtfully considering" posts but not taking the advice won't help anything, either.

If you do nothing, nothing will change.

If you don't want to post here, you can get Dr. Harley's advice for free every day on his radio show.

The best thing that could happen to your marriage (and to you)is if your wife found this thread. Better to get everything out in the open, Steve. All of it.

The truth will set you free.

I agree with all of this, she does not. She has made it clear for years she does not want me to share what i feel or think, when it comes to emotional or intimate issues. Well, let me rephrase, she SAYS she wants me to, but she has repeatedly used my feelings or thoughts as weapons for 14 years, so sharing openly may be a step in the process, but there would have to be a number of steps prior to that to get her to a place where she could recieve it. There is nothing we have discussed in this thread that she does not know well...

The reason for my fear of her finding it, is in the fact that I discussed it with anyone. She does not share anything with anyone. She has no close friends or family, and she does not articulate feelings or thoughts with me either. Well, she does, but they are not particularly deep thoughts or feelings... Certainly nothing intimate...

This was what I was seeking advice for all along. How do you pursuede someone to communicate in a way they have never done before and has no idea how to?

I could not agree more. My wife has no capacity to do this. At least she has never demonstrated it.

You make it sound like you proposed to a robot. Surely, she was somewhat open before? Or are you re-writing history? Your posts are very disrespectful of her.

So basically you don't want to be open with her because her reaction is rough on you? Um, be open anyway. And then be open that you don't like her reaction. You should also inform her that you find her shallow and incompetent to hold a serious conversation. Bring a hardhat.

A primary cause of this is you. You have established a disrespectful environment in which she is not safe to be open. She can never learn the skill unless you make it safe.

You'll have to establish safety and then wait for her to open up a little, and then make it extra, EXTRA safe, repeatedly, every time she does this, in order for her to develop this skill.

Yeah, I'm not buying this.

You're a grown man, who is afraid that his wife will use the thoughts and feelings you've written here against you? Funny that you never mentioned her being abusive to you. You only said she didn't express her feelings to you enough...and give you enough SF. One would think if she was abusive to you, you'd have at least mentioned this problem.

I'm pretty sure there's ANOTHER reason you don't want her to find this thread.

You gonna come clean w/ it or not?

She was never open before, but I was 20 and did not know anything about that stuff... I don't mean to be disrespectful, I'm just trying to provide an honest portrayal. She is quick to tell me she does not openly communicate feelings or emotions, so it's not just my assessment...

Ok, fine. I'm busted. Yes she has been abusive all these years and has said some of the most hurtful and damaging things over the years. She is the 'blowup and say hurtful things' type of fighter. To be honest I did not think of it as 'abusive' but rather a failure to effectively communicate using loving and caring words, and so perhaps that is why I did not think of it that way.

I'm not sure how to demonstrate this more than I do now. I have always demonstrated that I am a safe place for any thoughts and feelings she has. There was a moment in the past where I caught her in a secret (just something personal) that many spouses might have had a problem with, and yet I expressed compassion and acceptance and it just made me love her more. Again, she agrees with my assessment of me being a safe place, she just simply won't share.

Nope, Oregon. What you have demonstrated is that you want to say your piece, and if she disagrees with you, you want her to keep her mouth shut. I can imagine that you have trained her over the years that if she speaks her mind, you shut down and shut her out. I can attest that some women get yelly because they are not being heard.

IF you are willing to open this huge wound, it can heal. It will be disgusting for a little while, and you will both be tempted to pick it, but eventually, applying MB salve will heal it. (it is horrible metaphor day, didn't you know?)

You say she won't share, but you are the one here afraid she will find your thread! My goodness!

Not much of a troll, if you couldn't come back w/ a more creative post than that one.

You might have been able to keep this thread up for another day.

Hi OregonBoy. I Havent posted here in many years but have "lurked" around and I have been following your thread and it prompted me to sign back on and post to you.

I relate some to what you have posted about your wife being unable (unwilling) to communicate her feelings and deepest thoughts to you.

My H and I married VERY young, (too young) and were both very emotionally immature. My H was always good at expressing his deep thoughts and feelings to me (this is what drew me to him actually) I was not. I felt I had to protect myself and never make myself vulnerable. I had walls so high it was a fortress of protection.

I was afraid of having my feelings used against me or of allowing myself to get too close to him and being hurt by the person most important to me and that I needed the most.

I believe I had many reasons for this, many that involve my childhood, however, I want to be very clear Dr. Harley teaches you do not need to revisit childhood issues, as it is not going to fix what is going on now in the marriage. I agree 100%.

My H did things that made me feel unsafe about sharing deep thoughts and feelings with him, so I protected myself and HURT myself in the process! I was not even willing to communicate about that correctly! I worried about him "knowing" how much I needed him and loved him would make me MORE vulnerable and seemed too risky.

Bottom line I think your wife may also have trouble being vulnerable to you. I think you have done things to make her feel unsafe. Top example being the EA you had with the co-worker. I know you do not consider this to have been an EA, but IT WAS, then you confessed to your wife but mostly because you wanted her to feel jealous and "magically" start to share deep feelings and express her deep love and admiration in you. Wrong! I am sure this cut like a knife and PROVED to her more then ever SHE CAN'T TRUST you enough to open herself!

Can you see that? Please open yourself to the advice everyone is trying to give you here. You are being very defensive and closing off to what is being offered. We can ONLY advise YOU and instruct YOU because your wife is not here...YOU are.

Please stop thinking YOU are not part of the problem here.

Do you not value your marriage enough to bring her to Marriage BUILDERS?

The moment I saw ok fine, I'm busted I thought YOU would come clean about YOUR TRUE role in this mess. Instead came HER BIGGER role in this mess...

Markos pointed out the safe environment for her. Are you physically or verbally abusive, have been, still are?

I have not been, nor have I ever said a derogatory or hurtful thing purposefully to her. And I have certainly never physically hurt her. The only times I have ever hurt her were when I was openly sharing my desires and needs. For example, about 6 weeks ago I very gently and lovingly said, "I feel a desire to be needed by you." - This was met with feelings of inadequacy from her, and she gets immediately defensive, etc. She will later come and apologize for the defensive posture, but the pattern is almost always the same. So I have been torn about openly sharing my feelings with her. As long as I am happy and am not articulating any problems, she's happy and is unaware of any problems and there is peace between us. But when I share anything from my heart about something I desire from her, it's always a big conflict. She is unable to resolve conflict, so it almost always boils down to me apologizing for sharing, and me being the peacemaker and making things right. My counselor once told me to quit doing that and allow her to be the peacemaker and make everything right, and nearly a week went by with the most horrible tension and she was very weepy and communication was non-existent. If I don't back-pedal and be the peacemaker, we simply don't have any peace...

In addition to this, I have no memory of her ever coming to me with any desire at all. So when we have peace, there are never times when she has ever approached me and asked for anything. Other than the occasional household duty kind of stuff. But in 15 years there has never been a single occasion when she has asked for anything related to intimacy or affection or communication, because she has always had those.

You would benefit immensely from your wife coming here.

You said you've NEVER said a derogatory or hurtful thing purposefully to her?

RE: OW
"I went home and told my wife, hoping she might recognize I was desireable and maybe feel a little jealousy"

You are a SERIOUS PROBLEM in this and you fail to recognize it, it is you who is completely lacking in empathy (who knows, maybe she is too). Until we hear her side of it, I'm afraid nobody here is going to believe you are such an innocent victim as you claim.

You say you are the peacemaker, apologizing when it's not your fault to make things right? SHE apologized for your inappropriate boundaries with another woman.

Why does she not open to you? I wonder... is it because no matter what she says, you're always right and she's always wrong? Why would anyone bother opening up to you? You make it obvious that you refuse to own any responsibility for what you do.

Goodness sakes, you guys are harsh. I've never heard such judgmental statements in my life. I did not tell her about this woman hitting on me to hurt her, here were the motives for that...

1. Something like that I considered a big deal and I wanted her to know about it.
2. I hoped that she would recognize that I was a desirable man.
3. Her feeling slightly jealous would hopefully motivate her to demonstrate her affection for me.

I'm not saying these were the right motives, but what I am saying is that none of it was to hurt her, clear and simple. She may have been hurt, but it was not my intent certainly.

I have admitted over and over to my role in all of this, and how my insistence on seeking intimacy and sharing openly has been the catalyst for our problems. That's all my fault, and I quickly admit to it. I know that it is in my desire for intimate communication that has been the most frustrating to her...

I've said this before, but I will say it again. She did not apologize for my inappropriate boundaries, she apologized for not meeting my emotional needs. I'm not sure why this keeps coming up. You guys continue to try and drag something out of me or convince me to admit to something, and I keep explaining the situation and correcting your misperceptions and you guys don't seem to want to listen.

I know you all want me to be the enemy SO bad, but I'm not sure why...

Everyone wants to major on this relationship, that was hardly a relationship at all, that lasted maybe two weeks, and was limited to texting primarily, instead of on the 13 1/2 years of abuse and neglect. I just don't get it. It seems we are majoring on minors if you ask me.

One more thing... Everyone keeps insisting she come here, I mentioned in one of my early posts, that she and I spent a couple hours going through the articles and reading them out loud to each other. We went through all the emotional needs stuff, we went through the policy stuff, we went through the infidelity stuff, etc., and we talked for hours more about it all and how it applies to us, etc.

So she HAS been here... On the forum, no, but on the site and in the articles, yes.

But you have to understand, she has no interest in the energy it would take to work a program like this. It's just too emotionally taxing and requires too much communication, and it requires too much hard work. She just doesn't think like that. But that applies to her entire life. She's not one to investigate anything, or research, or dig into something. She has no hobbies and she shares with no one...

I meant to mention this earlier. For our entire marriage I have had romantic and powerful emotional feelings for my wife although she was not cultivating them. So I do not believe it is my sole responsibility to cause her to be IN LOVE with me. All she ever had to do was be alive and breathing, and that was enough for me to pour myself into her. So I don't by it.

And the 20+ hours of UA time you speak of causing it just is absolutely not true. I know I am throwing a wrench into your system, but it is simply the truth. I easily and often spend 20+ hours with her solely focused on her without TV or anything else distracting us, and have done so for the entire length of our marriage, and although things are much better now it certainly did not create romantic feelings in her for that first 13 1/2 years...

I'll take you at your word that you have done an excellent job of meeting her ENs, that she has seemed incapable of meeting yours despite clear communication and counselling, and that, having looked through the MB website and read the articles she refuses to work on meeting your ENs.

In that situation, you can either accept things as they are and stay in the marriage, or end it.

Dr Harley has advice on when and how to end the marriage here When to call it quits.

"Some people wait and hope for a change of heart. But as I mentioned earlier, time can go by very quickly. Before you know it, 20 more years will have passed without any improvement.

It�s sad to consider how many people put up with a loveless marriage and simply live independently. In fact, about 20% of all married couples die having been separated for many years. And while another 20% continue to live together, they don�t have much of a relationship�it�s like your marriage. Only about 20% have a romantic relationship throughout marriage�they meet each other�s intimate emotional needs.

If you want to be among the 20% that are happily married, you may need to do something drastic�like follow my plan. Or you will become one of the 20% that live together unfulfilled (like you are now), the 20% that stay married, but eventually separate for the rest of their lives together (like you may end up), or the remaining 40% who throw in the towel and divorce.

I strongly encourage you to be among the 20% with a very fulfilling marriage. While your husband may not like my plan at first, especially if you separate from him, if it succeeds, he will be a much happier man. He will come to recognize, as you do, that a great marriage requires a mutual effort. Both spouses must take their marital responsibilities seriously by meeting each other�s intimate emotional needs."

I was about to echo SugarCane, to consult "when to call it quits", if you have truly been in such a one-sided marriage for almost 15 years. Or at least attempt speaking with the Harleys - because I'm sorry OregonBoy, a lot of things don't add up and I suspect most posters here want her to post because she may fill in the gaps.

How can you tell your wife about an inappropriate behaviour, hoping that she would become jealous, and NOT think that you will hurt her? Have you ever experienced jealousy in your life? It is, in itself, painful. I'm sorry you think those are the most judgmental statements you've ever heard in your life... but to most wives, their husband talking about another woman's interest to make you jealous is a knife in the stomach.

alis, my concern here is that he has set this problem up as unresolvable. There is nothing that we can suggest that he hasn't already done. I actually don't quite believe in a reluctant spouse who reads through every article on the site, out loud, with her H, and yet refuses to do any marital work. Where did she get the interest to read through all the articles out loud with him, if she isn't interested in his complaints and has no energy to work on her marriage? If she was so uninterested and lacking in motivation, how and why did she stir herself to do so much? I think she put in a great deal of effort, and if she was willing to do that, she can't be unwilling to do a weekly lesson. These two pictures of her do not add up.

However, my disbelief is neither here nor there; it is immaterial, I think. I can see that this poster "knows" that his wife is unchangeable, and has had the opinion of an expert on that. That being the case, there really are only two alternatives. He can either separate from her and only go back if she demonstrates over a period of time that she will work to meet his needs, or he can put up with the situation. Simple logic shows that there are no other alternatives. I don't know what he was looking for when he came to this board saying that his wife was unchangeable. If someone is constitutionally unchangeable, then accept that and either stay or go.

I honestly did not consider that possibility. I saw it through my own point of view. If my wife came to me saying she was thinking about another man, my desire would be to find out what he was doing that I was not, and to begin doing it. My attitude to her would be, "you won't have to worry about him anymore, because I will be more man than he could dream of."

Can you see that? I hoped she would take that stance. That is why it was so devastating when she did not. I truly expected that response...

That is precisely why I came to this forum, I had hoped that was not the case, and I was looking for advice on how to handle her. I was hopeful and optimistic enough to believe she was NOT constitutionally unchangeable, however my points and arguments throughout this forum have been only to try and communicate the facts of the situation...

Oregon - Have you considered talking to Steve Harley about your situation? I don't have any experience with him, but others have said that he can be very persuasive and if you spoke to him first and then had him speak to your wife (privately) based on what others have said, it is very possible that he could convince your wife to put some effort into this.

I can tell that you are frustrated at times with the pushback you are getting from the community here. You are making yourself out to be a perfect husband and no one is perfect. (no, "I just love her too much" as your only flaw isn't honestly a flaw)

I do believe you have a sincere desire to improve your marriage. However, as SugarCane pointed out - the picture doesn't quite add up. I operate on a very simple principle of life: if it doesn't make sense, it's not true. So far, that principle seems to have held true for every MB situation I've seen on this board.

But how could you "hope that was not the case"? You have spent DAYS telling us that this WAS the case, no matter what we suggested. You wrote it here in your first post:

And in almost every post after that you made it clear that she will not change. Her counsellor has told you this and she has told you this. When we suggested that you sell MB to her - because we know that this using programme changes behaviour in marriage - you told us that attempting to sell it WOULD NOT WORK because she will not change. You knew that for a cast-iron fact.

So how could you have been hoping "that was not the case" and there could be some advice that would change her into someone that would want to do the programme?

This entire response screams DISRESPECTFUL JUDGMENT. You made disrespectful judgments of her simply based on YOUR mindset. I suspect this is not the only disrespectful judgment you've made over the years and, perhaps, YOUR assumptions about how she should think, react, respond, feel have led her to a place where she either no longer feels safe enough or cares enough to share her intimate self. In other words, she has completely withdrawn from you.

Out of curiosity ( i have not read the entire thread ) ... have you printed out the emotional needs questionairs, Love busters questionsirs and personal history questionairs x2? filled them out and exchanged them and reviewed them together?

Maybe that would be a good starting point? Especially if you both understand all the aspects of MB since you both read the material out loud together?

MNG

You said it here:

And here:

And here:

And here:

Here:

Here:

It's endless. You have spent your entire time here saying either that she cannot meet your needs, and her counsellor has endorsed this fact, or that she will not, and SHE has endorsed this fact.

You don't accept that either there is resentment and unfinished business about the affair, or you are not meeting her needs and providing "just compensation". According to your description of her words, she sees you as doing an unbeatable job and blame HERSELF for the affair - not you.

So that leaves your picture of the constitutionally unchangeable wife. What else are people to suggest, other than that you put up with it or leave? Leaving is what Dr Harley suggests.

OregonBoy, what are your wife's complaints about your marriage?

I find it interesting that the majority (not all) of what Sugarcane highlighted are disrespectful judgments made by you rather than how/what your wife may or may not be.

Also, in line with what Marco asked you, have you ever asked your wife what her complaints are about you/the marriage and TRULY listened without defending yourself, without making excuses. Just listened?????

OregonBoy,

I see 2 possibilities here based on your posts:

1. You are a perfect husband and your wife (admittedly) is incapable of loving you the way you want to be loved. If this is the case then you can put up with it and stay, or you can leave.

2. You are not a perfect husband and your wife is in fact capable of loving you in the way you need. If this is the case, focus on your side of the street by being open to new perspectives and suggestions. Listen to the good people here who truly, truly know what they're talking about and grow the love and marriage you want.

aBetterMe

I was going to suggest calling Steve Harley also. See what he thinks and advises. You do want to try everything before you give up.

Her complaint, on the rare occasion she makes one, is that I desire intimate emotional conversation and words of affirmation.

She has never made a complaint about how I love, take care of, or provide for her.

Asking? Probably into the thousands of times. Listening with an open heart and mind? Every time. The problem is, me asking creates conflict, so there is not rational answering. 90% of the time the answer is, "nothing, you are wonderful." The other 10% of the time it is that I am high maintenance because of my need for emotional and intimate affirmation and support.

And again, just to reiterate, I have never claimed to be the perfect husband. I recognize where I have contributed to our problems over the years, and how my desire for intimacy can overshadow my better judgement and cause me to openly share my feelings with her, to our great detriment.

OregonBoy,

Sharing your feelings should hurt your marriage unless you are not sharing them in a productive way. This tells me you're not telling us the whole truth. There are too many holes in what you're saying and until you come clean (or bring your wife here to share her side of the story), no one here can help you.

High maintenance people suck the life out of others - even if it's only 10% of the time, it might as well be all the time. I run - very fast - from emotionally draining, high maintenance people.

OregonBoy,

Have you tried contacting the Harleys yet?

Here's the problem - there are now 13 pages on your thread, the vast majority of posts are you arguing with others that you are not really a problem in this, you have changed your username in case your wife could identify you, and continue with inconsistent statements.

You really can't be surprised at this point that people here think you are not telling the truth.

IF your wife could come here, GIVE HER SIDE OF THE STORY, it would vastly assist you in getting constructive criticism on how to improve things.

But, you don't wish to do that and have rebuked 99% of things that people believe you may be responsible for. That, and considering how you feel that showing her the interest of another woman will lead her to realize what a great husband you really, seriously suggests a red flag of ego. Let's be honest - you DON'T WANT US TO HEAR YOUR WIFE'S SIDE, do you?

I wonder if your wife is given the impression that showing affection/intimacy to you requires exaggeration, over-the-top praise, and worship?

Please contact the Harleys and please allow your wife to speak with them too.

I would love nothing more for her to share with all of you her side of the story. I would love for her to share her side of the story with ANYONE!

This will be my last post, but let me clarify one last thing before I go. The reason I have fear about her finding this stuff is because of how honest I have been about it all. Anytime I have been open and honest with her it has been disastrous. She would probably feel betrayed that I even shared it with anyone, and then she would feel completely inadequate for not meeting my emotional needs. This has been the pattern from the past, so I can only assume it would continue. The idea that I would LEAD her here to read it all is ridiculous to the point of foolishness.

I don't think you could label someone who is only high maintenance 10% of the time a 'high maintenance person.' - Also, I did not say I WAS high maintenance, I simply stated she may see me as such, but only every now and then...

Could your wife have an electric fence personality? Dr. H talks about it here
I think you may have what I call the "electric fence" personality. People with such a personality walk down the road of life with an electric fence on each side of the road. And they are faced with a serious disadvantage --the stroll is at night, the flashlight they use to look ahead is very dim, and the road takes sharp turns. That makes it difficult for them to see the electric fence, and they often stumble into it. As long as these people are on the path, they are usually very happy and optimistic about life. But, when they touch the fence they get a rude shock, and will do anything to get off of it and back onto the path. Once back on the path, they are happy again.
Article here Recovering Sexual Desire after an Affair

Your flounce lasted one minute! Is that a record?

OK, so you have stated you have posted your final time here. I am sorry to hear that. Many have suggested you contact Steve Harley....you never responded, but hope you will consider doing so.

I have a couple final thoughts for you. Have you considered the fact that the EA you had could be clouding your thoughts and judgement here? You want to minimize this, and do not feel it was an EA, however, according to Dr. Harley anytime a married person allows someone of the opposite sex to meet EN's it is considered an EA. This is what happened.

Now you have a new point of reference, a women that gave you the exact things your wife does not. Obviously this HAS impacted you in some way because you mentioned it here. Perhaps you are in what is known as the A fog. I think this is a very real possibility here because you didn't come to post until AFTER this had happened.

I am a bit shocked that you still believe that your wife should have had a positive reaction and change in behaviour after you revealed this "situation" to your wife. That is just bizarre thinking, but also sounds foggy.

Another thing you stated how YOU believe you would have reacted to if your wife had come to you with this information. Your wife is not you. Stop expecting her to respond and want the same things you do.

You have been asked several times if you and your wife have filled out the EN's questionnaire, but i don't think you ever told us what you wife's top 5 EN's are. You just mentioned some love language code that means nothing on MB. I assume her top 5 are quite different from yours. The needs you speak of meeting so well for your wife sound to be the ones you would like met for you. It is usually easy for us to meet the same needs in our spouse as our own, not so easy to meet the ones we don't have or understand.

I was hesitant to mention this, but think it may apply in your case so here it is. My H has a need for admiration as well, although, I don't think quite as much as you. Not only does this not come naturally for me to do, (so it is a need that I need to work to meet) but in earlier years I felt he was so busy admiring himself, it was a bit sickening to me, and I couldn't imagine stroking his ego anymore then he already did.

Please call Steve Harley. The grass may seem greener but as many have discovered its usually not.

She is in the state of Withdrawal (see Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts) and is not open to allowing you to make Love Bank deposits.

How much time do the two of you spend together each week, and what do you do during that time?

In a fog? Highly likely. My views skewed because someone else met my emotional needs without me having to coax them out? Even more likely. Spending 13+ years being abused and neglected can have a way of changing a person. I really do appreciate all the comments, and most likely my motive for all of this was simply the exercise of venting my situation, and maybe I wasn't looking for advice after all, but some listening ears who could perhaps empathize with my situation.

Everything is my life is wonderful. My home, my children, my job, my church, my friends, my family. My wife and I get along wonderfully and we love the same things and we love spending time together. The only problem we have is that my wife does not understand how to let down her guard and have real intimacy with me. We don't communicate well, and she has some sort of mental block from affirming me with words. Unfortunately, this one area is so critical to my mental and emotional health I don't know what to do. My entire life I have dreamed of pouring myself into someone who would pour themselves into me, and when I am faced with the kind of work, energy, and sacrifice it would take and there still being no guarantees, I just don't know if I have it in me to do it. I have already given over 14 years of my life, completely laying aside everything else for her. I don't know if I willing to live like this for 14 more.

I appreciate everyone. I'm out.

You are truly a man of contradictions here - you have already engaged in an inappropriate contact with another woman because you feel your wife does not meet your needs, and you do not know if you can continue. Everything is obviously not wonderful and that wonderful family will cease to exist if some sort of work towards a resolution does not take place.

You've been told at least 5 times throughout this thread to contact the Harleys directly, are you willing to do that? Why aren't you interested in doing that?

Sheesh, you mean you were here to get still more of your emotional needs met outside of your marriage?

You are quite a conflict avoider, sir. Instead of actually talking to your wife about your problems and learning to solve them, you just want emotional support so that you can endure them.

I'm telling you, that will never work, long term.

If and when you would like help to solve your marital problems, we will be here to help you learn Dr. Harley's method of doing that.

It is true that you don't know what to do.

However, you have a mistake in your thinking: you think you know what to do. Yes, even though you admitted briefly here that you don't know what to do, you believe that the thing to do is to look for some people to empathize with you and give you emotional support so you can live with this problem.

Many people have tried that and it doesn't work.

The actual thing to do is to embark on an educational program and learn Marriage Builders in detail. It will provide the answers you need for how to actually get your need for empathy and admiration met within your marriage. Trying to get this need met on a message board or anywhere else other than where it needs to be met will lead only to misery.

Since you claim to be a Christian you must know that you have ZERO grounds to divorce your wife.

Zero.


No one here is going to empathize w/ a man who has disrespected his wife as much as you have. Or who is unwilling (or should I say "UNABLE", "INCAPABLE", "HANDICAPPED", "NO DESIRE"??)to examine his own part in the condition of his marriage.

Markos, you have been missed***edit***
Oregon Boy, pray for your wife and call the Harleys.

Bump

Original poster posted another thread in MB101 , using alias

Welcome back, Oregonboy! Sorry that you are still struggling in your marriage, but glad to see you have not given up.

You will only receive MB advice here. You can not magically "fix" your wife. I agree with ML that your wife seems to have a freeloader approach to the marriage. You both deserve, and can have a very happy and fulfilling marriage.

Obviously your wife is not using the MB program. You need to sell your wife on MB, get her on board by helping her to see the benefit to HER. You need to stop tip toeing around and tell your wife that this is a problem that needs to be addressed, not dismissed. It's not going away.

I still recommend that you contact Steve Harley for phone coaching. He can really get to the root of the problem and work with both of you towards the SOLUTION!