Long story so you understand the background.
My wife and I have been married going on 27 years. We met in the Philippines while in the Air Force and we "dated" for a month before she left on another assignment stateside. We wrote and talked from October to December almost every day. By the middle of December, we were planning a wedding for January when I came home on leave. The wedding was beautiful and we were ecstatic. After almost a month, I had to return to the Philippines. At 6 months, she visited me in the PI and we conceived our first child. She got out and went to her mom's place. At the 14 month mark, I transferred back to the states and we moved to Illinois where we had two children.
Just after the birth of our second child, I separated from military service and we moved to my hometown in Texas. She returned to school and I went to work. This went until about 3 1/2 years when I got an opportunity to return to military service. We did, and had our third child.
Fast forward to 2004.
A couple years after our last move, she was unhappy because she felt that I wasn't treating her with respect. She felt belittled by me and was tired of it. She asked for a "separation". This separation consisted of her having me move out, sign a 1 yr lease for an apartment, contacting a lawyer, giving up her wedding ring as retainer, and presenting me with divorce papers. I signed them and moved on with my life. She never filed them and about a couple of weeks later begged me to reconcile. I hesitated, but agreed. We entered counseling and our communication got better.
I have been battling major depression with anxiety for years and have had difficulty dealing with our young children during their "rebellious" stages. My outbursts caused many problems both with the kids and with her. Adding to that, my doctors were constantly changing my depression medication to find a combination that worked. In 2010, things got weird.
The best way to describe it was that I fell into a fog. I don't remember much from that time. I know that I reconnected with an old girlfriend (not an affiar) and she questioned whether or not I was truly happy in my marriage. after our talks, she was convinced that I was giving up my own identity to keep my wife happy. I rolled with this and made a decision to separate by moving out of the house into our travel trailer to get my head together and find out if I could find my backbone. The day I was supposed to move, she found me almost catatonic sitting on the front porch. Needless to say, I didn't move out. We went back to counseling and things began to get better.
Here's where today's problem picked up its momentum. From that time in 2010 until about 6 months ago, I remained in the "fog" in one fashion or another. We were like roommates. My sex drive went to zero. We still hugged and kissed, but there was no real intimacy. My job was stressful and my fog was real. I coasted for almost 5 years.
In November 14, I got out from under my stressful job and my doctor finally found a medicine combination that brought me out of the fog. I was back. This is when I realized that she wasn't welcoming me back. She was hurt. She was very damaged. The prior year was very hard on her.....stressful job, father died, aunt died, uncle died, our youngest graduates this summer. She has withdrawn. I tried to get her to talk but all she could say was that she was deeply hurt by my "fog" and she had to sort out her feelings.
Three weeks ago, we were in an emotional discussion when I asked her what she wanted from me. What did she need to be happy. At that point, she said she wanted a separation. She would pack and move out....but not until after our youngest graduated and went off to college (@August). This hit me like a ton of bricks. I knew she was unhappy, but I guess I never allowed myself to see this coming.
In the three weeks and 4 days since, she and I have talked a little. To describe my behavior....I am begging for forgiveness. I asked for counseling again....she declined. She says she doesn't know what she wants to do now...that she needs to sort out her feelings. She tells me not to push the issue or I "won't like the outcome". My last suggestion to her was that this Friday was a month since she dropped the separation bomb. I felt that was quite enough time to decide whether or not she "wanted" this to work out. Whether or not it would work out would be seen later. I needed to know that she would put one foot in front of the other on the reconciliation trail. She won't make that decision (or she has and won't tell me).
My friends have told me to take the affirmative step and draw up the papers. Basically, to tell her to "[censored] or get off the pot".
I love my wife and will do whatever it takes to keep our marriage alive. Am I being foolish?
Dr. Harley developed a plan which can restore romantic love to your marriage.
Are either of you having an affair?
Are you still talking to the old girlfriend?
Long story so you understand the background.
My wife and I have been married going on 27 years. We met in the Philippines while in the Air Force and we "dated" for a month before she left on another assignment stateside. We wrote and talked from October to December almost every day. By the middle of December, we were planning a wedding for January when I came home on leave. The wedding was beautiful and we were ecstatic. After almost a month, I had to return to the Philippines. At 6 months, she visited me in the PI and we conceived our first child. She got out and went to her mom's place. At the 14 month mark, I transferred back to the states and we moved to Illinois where we had two children.
Just after the birth of our second child, I separated from military service and we moved to my hometown in Texas. She returned to school and I went to work. This went until about 3 1/2 years when I got an opportunity to return to military service. We did, and had our third child.
Fast forward to 2004.
A couple years after our last move, she was unhappy because she felt that I wasn't treating her with respect. She felt belittled by me and was tired of it. She asked for a "separation". This separation consisted of her having me move out, sign a 1 yr lease for an apartment, contacting a lawyer, giving up her wedding ring as retainer, and presenting me with divorce papers. I signed them and moved on with my life. She never filed them and about a couple of weeks later begged me to reconcile. I hesitated, but agreed. We entered counseling and our communication got better.
I have been battling major depression with anxiety for years and have had difficulty dealing with our young children during their "rebellious" stages. My outbursts caused many problems both with the kids and with her. Adding to that, my doctors were constantly changing my depression medication to find a combination that worked. In 2010, things got weird.
The best way to describe it was that I fell into a fog. I don't remember much from that time. I know that I reconnected with an old girlfriend (not an affiar) and she questioned whether or not I was truly happy in my marriage. after our talks, she was convinced that I was giving up my own identity to keep my wife happy. I rolled with this and made a decision to separate by moving out of the house into our travel trailer to get my head together and find out if I could find my backbone. The day I was supposed to move, she found me almost catatonic sitting on the front porch. Needless to say, I didn't move out. We went back to counseling and things began to get better.
Here's where today's problem picked up its momentum. From that time in 2010 until about 6 months ago, I remained in the "fog" in one fashion or another. We were like roommates. My sex drive went to zero. We still hugged and kissed, but there was no real intimacy. My job was stressful and my fog was real. I coasted for almost 5 years.
In November 14, I got out from under my stressful job and my doctor finally found a medicine combination that brought me out of the fog. I was back. This is when I realized that she wasn't welcoming me back. She was hurt. She was very damaged. The prior year was very hard on her.....stressful job, father died, aunt died, uncle died, our youngest graduates this summer. She has withdrawn. I tried to get her to talk but all she could say was that she was deeply hurt by my "fog" and she had to sort out her feelings.
Three weeks ago, we were in an emotional discussion when I asked her what she wanted from me. What did she need to be happy. At that point, she said she wanted a separation. She would pack and move out....but not until after our youngest graduated and went off to college (@August). This hit me like a ton of bricks. I knew she was unhappy, but I guess I never allowed myself to see this coming.
In the three weeks and 4 days since, she and I have talked a little. To describe my behavior....I am begging for forgiveness. I asked for counseling again....she declined. She says she doesn't know what she wants to do now...that she needs to sort out her feelings. She tells me not to push the issue or I "won't like the outcome". My last suggestion to her was that this Friday was a month since she dropped the separation bomb. I felt that was quite enough time to decide whether or not she "wanted" this to work out. Whether or not it would work out would be seen later. I needed to know that she would put one foot in front of the other on the reconciliation trail. She won't make that decision (or she has and won't tell me).
My friends have told me to take the affirmative step and draw up the papers. Basically, to tell her to "[censored] or get off the pot".
I love my wife and will do whatever it takes to keep our marriage alive. Am I being foolish?
Welcome to MB.
Yes, you are being very foolish if you want your wife back and then issue an ultimatum that she needs to make up her mind, because one month for you in this limbo is long enough.
If it IS really long enough for you, then go ahead and issue your ultimatum, and be prepared for her to say that the marriage is over. You haven't spent nearly enough time wooing your wife and winning her back, and making her fall in love with you again, so if you want her to decide right now, based on her feelings right now, she will decide to divorce you.
If you want this marriage much more than you want to be divorced, then you need to woo your wife, just as you did when you were dating her and got her to fall in love with you. She agreed to marry you then because she was in love with you. YOU might think that, now she is married, she needs to honour that commitment whether she is in love or not, but, from what you have said here, that is not how SHE feels. She does not want to be in this marriage as it is, because of the way you have behaved towards her. You need to show long-term, consistent behavioural change in order for her to want to go back to you.
What is the reason you feel that one month is long enough? What are your plans for moving on? You certainly seem to have one and a half feet out of the door.
Dr. Harley developed a plan which can restore romantic love to your marriage.
Are either of you having an affair?
Are you still talking to the old girlfriend?
No affairs
Haven't talked to that lady in 5 years...don't plan to.
Long story so you understand the background.
My wife and I have been married going on 27 years. We met in the Philippines while in the Air Force and we "dated" for a month before she left on another assignment stateside. We wrote and talked from October to December almost every day. By the middle of December, we were planning a wedding for January when I came home on leave. The wedding was beautiful and we were ecstatic. After almost a month, I had to return to the Philippines. At 6 months, she visited me in the PI and we conceived our first child. She got out and went to her mom's place. At the 14 month mark, I transferred back to the states and we moved to Illinois where we had two children.
Just after the birth of our second child, I separated from military service and we moved to my hometown in Texas. She returned to school and I went to work. This went until about 3 1/2 years when I got an opportunity to return to military service. We did, and had our third child.
Fast forward to 2004.
A couple years after our last move, she was unhappy because she felt that I wasn't treating her with respect. She felt belittled by me and was tired of it. She asked for a "separation". This separation consisted of her having me move out, sign a 1 yr lease for an apartment, contacting a lawyer, giving up her wedding ring as retainer, and presenting me with divorce papers. I signed them and moved on with my life. She never filed them and about a couple of weeks later begged me to reconcile. I hesitated, but agreed. We entered counseling and our communication got better.
I have been battling major depression with anxiety for years and have had difficulty dealing with our young children during their "rebellious" stages. My outbursts caused many problems both with the kids and with her. Adding to that, my doctors were constantly changing my depression medication to find a combination that worked. In 2010, things got weird.
The best way to describe it was that I fell into a fog. I don't remember much from that time. I know that I reconnected with an old girlfriend (not an affiar) and she questioned whether or not I was truly happy in my marriage. after our talks, she was convinced that I was giving up my own identity to keep my wife happy. I rolled with this and made a decision to separate by moving out of the house into our travel trailer to get my head together and find out if I could find my backbone. The day I was supposed to move, she found me almost catatonic sitting on the front porch. Needless to say, I didn't move out. We went back to counseling and things began to get better.
Here's where today's problem picked up its momentum. From that time in 2010 until about 6 months ago, I remained in the "fog" in one fashion or another. We were like roommates. My sex drive went to zero. We still hugged and kissed, but there was no real intimacy. My job was stressful and my fog was real. I coasted for almost 5 years.
In November 14, I got out from under my stressful job and my doctor finally found a medicine combination that brought me out of the fog. I was back. This is when I realized that she wasn't welcoming me back. She was hurt. She was very damaged. The prior year was very hard on her.....stressful job, father died, aunt died, uncle died, our youngest graduates this summer. She has withdrawn. I tried to get her to talk but all she could say was that she was deeply hurt by my "fog" and she had to sort out her feelings.
Three weeks ago, we were in an emotional discussion when I asked her what she wanted from me. What did she need to be happy. At that point, she said she wanted a separation. She would pack and move out....but not until after our youngest graduated and went off to college (@August). This hit me like a ton of bricks. I knew she was unhappy, but I guess I never allowed myself to see this coming.
In the three weeks and 4 days since, she and I have talked a little. To describe my behavior....I am begging for forgiveness. I asked for counseling again....she declined. She says she doesn't know what she wants to do now...that she needs to sort out her feelings. She tells me not to push the issue or I "won't like the outcome". My last suggestion to her was that this Friday was a month since she dropped the separation bomb. I felt that was quite enough time to decide whether or not she "wanted" this to work out. Whether or not it would work out would be seen later. I needed to know that she would put one foot in front of the other on the reconciliation trail. She won't make that decision (or she has and won't tell me).
My friends have told me to take the affirmative step and draw up the papers. Basically, to tell her to "[censored] or get off the pot".
I love my wife and will do whatever it takes to keep our marriage alive. Am I being foolish?
Welcome to MB.
Yes, you are being very foolish if you want your wife back and then issue an ultimatum that she needs to make up her mind, because one month for you in this limbo is long enough.
If it IS really long enough for you, then go ahead and issue your ultimatum, and be prepared for her to say that the marriage is over. You haven't spent nearly enough time wooing your wife and winning her back, and making her fall in love with you again, so if you want her to decide right now, based on her feelings right now, she will decide to divorce you.
If you want this marriage much more than you want to be divorced, then you need to woo your wife, just as you did when you were dating her and got her to fall in love with you. She agreed to marry you then because she was in love with you. YOU might think that, now she is married, she needs to honour that commitment whether she is in love or not, but, from what you have said here, that is not how SHE feels. She does not want to be in this marriage as it is, because of the way you have behaved towards her. You need to show long-term, consistent behavioural change in order for her to want to go back to you.
What is the reason you feel that one month is long enough? What are your plans for moving on? You certainly seem to have one and a half feet out of the door.
You are correct. I have not done things the right way.
I'm not out the door, but have moments where I feel that everything is coming apart around me. Other times, I understand her needs and am willing to give her what she wants.
I appreciate the truth.
In the three weeks and 4 days since, she and I have talked a little. To describe my behavior....I am begging for forgiveness. I asked for counseling again....she declined. She says she doesn't know what she wants to do now...that she needs to sort out her feelings. She tells me not to push the issue or I "won't like the outcome". My last suggestion to her was that this Friday was a month since she dropped the separation bomb. I felt that was quite enough time to decide whether or not she "wanted" this to work out. Whether or not it would work out would be seen later. I needed to know that she would put one foot in front of the other on the reconciliation trail. She won't make that decision (or she has and won't tell me).
My friends have told me to take the affirmative step and draw up the papers. Basically, to tell her to "[censored] or get off the pot".
I love my wife and will do whatever it takes to keep our marriage alive. Am I being foolish?
Your approach is not the least bit strategic. It is proud, arrogant and most of all: INEFFECTIVE. There is nothing in it that should motivate any sane person to buy what you are selling.
You need to be much more strategic if you want to have a marriage. By that, I mean you had better offer her a happy marriage where you are both happy and in love. If you don't have that for sell, then what is there to stay around for? You have nothing to buy except 27 more years of misery.
I would change your approach entirely. Start being the husband she wants and needs. Start being the husband who makes her happy. STOP being the husband who is depressed, fogged out and has angry outbursts. No woman will be attracted to that. You wnat your wife to stay? Then create a program of attraction and start courting her. Otherwise, she is right to leave.
Go post your exact post on match.com and see how many takers you have. Just see how many women are interested in an angry, depressed, fogged out husband who gives arrogant ultimatums?
Reconnecting with an old gf for whom you agree with leaving your wife is an affair btw.
Good grief. Do you pal up with anyone else who has a knife for your wife's back?
Reading your replies has been sobering. I decided (thanks to your input, hours of reading, and my gut that I was going to put my fears aside and give her the space she needs. This was Wednesday evening. Since, I've been here, but just outside her bubble. I haven't quit doing the things around the house that I have always done (laundry, cooking, shopping, etc) and left her to her homework (in a masters program) and to her thoughts. It was a little rough Saturday because we had a party and the attendees kept asking me why she was giving me a wide berth. I assured them that they were mistaken and pressed on with the day. In all of it, I never brought the situation up and avoided a couple of topics that could have led to it.
Sunday morning, she brought the subject up. I was shocked. I listened, gave a bit of input, but let her control the situation. It felt good.
Better?
You have a lot of years of neglect to make up for so I don't think giving her space as your only move is the right move at all. Even if she is asking for it.
By all means let her have her say and her opinions and don't talk over her. I would say don't talk at all about your perspective, draw her out to meet an IC need instead. But in between times you should be finding ways - actions not talking - to meet her needs so she will miss you.
What can you do to make her day special? To showcase the future marriage She can expect? What gestures can you make?
You've courted her once.
Did you ever go No Contact with the ex gf? That will have been noticed if not.
Went NC with her 5 years ago.
Is that obvious to your wife and are your interactions with others transparent? Few people think to do this and few spouses push for it. Just make sure because doubt could have been eroding her love bank.
Interesting thing happened last night. First, some background.
When we are at a show or movie, I usually sit with my arm around the back of her chair and gently stroke her shoulder. Of late, she has said this was "pushing" her. I stopped.
Last night we were back in the auditorium for our youngest child's final high school performance. This time, I sat with my hands in my lap.
This is an emotional time for us...last kiddo graduating and leaving the house. As we crawled into bed last night, I offered up my shoulder to lay on. She said "I could have used that earlier".
Someone please tell me how I can respect her wishes and not press for physical contact while still being there for support? My response to her was that I was trying to respect her. I told her that while I wanted to be a shoulder to cry on (and even more), that there were no signals indicating that she would be receptive.
Am I crazy, or am I getting mixed messages here?
Scotty, she isn't going to have one guiding rule for you to follow in all situations. If you are thinking of offering your shoulder to her, ask her and that way you will get a yes or a no.
If your wife is in withdrawal she will often say no and be quite hostile, as though she doesnt want you to offer. However you have to persevere.
OK, has been a few days but I've been out there. Here's an update. We went to our first counseling (round 4) and the counselor basically told me to back off and give her some room to breathe. while that is hard for me sometimes, I work at it to be compliant.
This past weekend, I was moving some furniture and found a briefcase that I hadn't seen in over 10 years. Inside were letters from her. First, the letter she wrote asking me for a divorce in 2004. The rest were from the same period. The part that ripped me up inside was that her complaints in the 11 year old letters were basically the same as today. I cried over that realization.
I have read all 102 pages of another thread that is similar (kinda) to my situation. In all of this, I have learned that my difficulty complying with her desire for me to back off is not uncommon....just unproductive.
The other morning, I got up early (430) with her and decided to de-clutter a part of our living room. She asked me if I was slipping into a "Manic" phase and I got defensive. I regret that action and have apologized. Having pretty much crawled all over this site, I know that defensiveness is an LB.
I've ordered Love Busters and 5 steps to romantic love. I'm serious about saving our marriage and will do whatever I have to to facilitate that.
I need help. would anyone out there be willing to evaluate my situations and give advice?
OK, has been a few days but I've been out there. Here's an update. We went to our first counseling (round 4) and the counselor basically told me to back off and give her some room to breathe. while that is hard for me sometimes, I work at it to be compliant.
This past weekend, I was moving some furniture and found a briefcase that I hadn't seen in over 10 years. Inside were letters from her. First, the letter she wrote asking me for a divorce in 2004. The rest were from the same period. The part that ripped me up inside was that her complaints in the 11 year old letters were basically the same as today. I cried over that realization.
I have read all 102 pages of another thread that is similar (kinda) to my situation. In all of this, I have learned that my difficulty complying with her desire for me to back off is not uncommon....just unproductive.
The other morning, I got up early (430) with her and decided to de-clutter a part of our living room. She asked me if I was slipping into a "Manic" phase and I got defensive. I regret that action and have apologized. Having pretty much crawled all over this site, I know that defensiveness is an LB.
I've ordered Love Busters and 5 steps to romantic love. I'm serious about saving our marriage and will do whatever I have to to facilitate that.
I need help. would anyone out there be willing to evaluate my situations and give advice?
i think that, since you are trying to avert a divorce, you shouldn't be in this forum. You should be in MB 101.
Click "notify" and ask a moderator to move your thread there.
[quote=Scotty]OK, has been a few days but I've been out there. Here's an update. We went to our first counseling (round 4) and the counselor basically told me to back off and give her some room to breathe. while that is hard for me sometimes, I work at it to be compliant.
This past weekend, I was moving some furniture and found a briefcase that I hadn't seen in over 10 years. Inside were letters from her. First, the letter she wrote asking me for a divorce in 2004. The rest were from the same period. The part that ripped me up inside was that her complaints in the 11 year old letters were basically the same as today. I cried over that realization.
I have read all 102 pages of another thread that is similar (kinda) to my situation. In all of this, I have learned that my difficulty complying with her desire for me to back off is not uncommon....just unproductive.
The other morning, I got up early (430) with her and decided to de-clutter a part of our living room. She asked me if I was slipping into a "Manic" phase and I got defensive. I regret that action and have apologized. Having pretty much crawled all over this site, I know that defensiveness is an LB.
I've ordered Love Busters and 5 steps to romantic love. I'm serious about saving our marriage and will do whatever I have to to facilitate that.
I need help. would anyone out there be willing to evaluate my situations and give advice?
We are now in the correct forum, any takers?
I would go to her and tell her that you have a plan for restoring the love in your marriage, if she is willing to try. You need to sell this as a way for you BOTH to have your needs met and have a marriage of extraordinary care.
If she is willing, sign up for the online MB course. You will have an accountability coach who will help you work through the MB program in a way that is specific to your needs. You will also have access to Dr Harley himself on the private forum.
This is the single greatest way to work this program and learn it inside and out, while being held accountable to applying it on a daily basis to your marriage.
We went to our first counseling (round 4) and the counselor basically told me to back off and give her some room to breathe. while that is hard for me sometimes, I work at it to be compliant.
Traditional counselors are ineffective at saving marriages. You would be better off doing the online program through MB, who IS effective at saving marriages. Nobody on these forums gets a dime for telling you that either, we do it because we have all been a part of the program and have experienced how effective it is when applied.
Backing off and giving her room to breathe is not the answer. She is withdrawn and that will only cause her to withdraw further.
If you have familiarized yourself with the program, than you are aware of EN's and love busters. (BTW Dr Harley does not define 'defensiveness' as a love buster) If you are aware of your wife's EN's, then start meeting them. Avoid love busting at all cost, these have basically drained her love for you.
What can you do to meet her EN's TODAY?
This past weekend, I was moving some furniture and found a briefcase that I hadn't seen in over 10 years. Inside were letters from her. First, the letter she wrote asking me for a divorce in 2004. The rest were from the same period. The part that ripped me up inside was that her complaints in the 11 year old letters were basically the same as today. I cried over that realization.
Although painful to read and realize that you have seriously neglected her complaints, this is helpful for you going forward. You basically can see in writing her exact complaints about you. You can use them to identify the EN's you were failing to meet and meet them, and the LB's you were committing that you need to avoid.
Read these complaints and change your behavior to accommodate them.
I would go to her and tell her that you have a plan for restoring the love in your marriage, if she is willing to try. You need to sell this as a way for you BOTH to have your needs met and have a marriage of extraordinary care.
If she is willing, sign up for the online MB course. You will have an accountability coach who will help you work through the MB program in a way that is specific to your needs. You will also have access to Dr Harley himself on the private forum.
This is the single greatest way to work this program and learn it inside and out, while being held accountable to applying it on a daily basis to your marriage.
I appreciate your suggestion. I have been thinking about that. I am afraid that won't be so much unwilling as unable to devote the time. She is a Director Level Manager at a hospital and just entered an 18 month graduate course of study. She "literally" has no free time. I would be afraid that she would push my suggestion aside for the other issues. How would I deal with that?
We went to our first counseling (round 4) and the counselor basically told me to back off and give her some room to breathe. while that is hard for me sometimes, I work at it to be compliant.
Backing off and giving her room to breathe is not the answer. She is withdrawn and that will only cause her to withdraw further.
I am concerned about this. All she has asked me for was to back off and let give her time to sort out her feelings. When I don't back off and want to engage her, she says I am disrespecting her. Isn't this a Catch-22?
What can you do to meet her EN's TODAY?
Considering the limited time that I have with her (I sometimes work nights) and her crunched time schedule, I'm not sure what ENs I would have a chance to meet. I know that I let her use me as a sounding board for her day. I make her coffee in the mornings, compliment her outfit and give her positive encouragement when she remarks that things are piling up on her and she is afraid she will fail. What else would y'all suggest?
This past weekend, I was moving some furniture and found a briefcase that I hadn't seen in over 10 years. Inside were letters from her. First, the letter she wrote asking me for a divorce in 2004. The rest were from the same period. The part that ripped me up inside was that her complaints in the 11 year old letters were basically the same as today. I cried over that realization.
Although painful to read and realize that you have seriously neglected her complaints, this is helpful for you going forward. You basically can see in writing her exact complaints about you. You can use them to identify the EN's you were failing to meet and meet them, and the LB's you were committing that you need to avoid.
Read these complaints and change your behavior to accommodate them.
Initially, I saw these letters as proof that I didn't do what I said I would do. She has verbalized concerns that my commitment to correct wrong behavior wouldn't last. She is afraid of getting back on the roller coaster.
Regardless, I will use the information found in the letters to tailor my actions to meet those needs. I just have to avoid LBs and disrespect. I have a bad habit of pushing my own agenda from time to time.
[
Considering the limited time that I have with her (I sometimes work nights) and her crunched time schedule, I'm not sure what ENs I would have a chance to meet. I know that I let her use me as a sounding board for her day. I make her coffee in the mornings, compliment her outfit and give her positive encouragement when she remarks that things are piling up on her and she is afraid she will fail. What else would y'all suggest?
I would strongly suggest changing your work schedule so you are with her as much as possible. Because you can't have a marriage if you work/live opposing schedules. And you certainly won't be able to create an integrated, romantic marriage if you are working nights. All of the above efforts are nice, but won't sustain a marriage.
[
Initially, I saw these letters as proof that I didn't do what I said I would do. She has verbalized concerns that my commitment to correct wrong behavior wouldn't last. She is afraid of getting back on the roller coaster.
Regardless, I will use the information found in the letters to tailor my actions to meet those needs. I just have to avoid LBs and disrespect. I have a bad habit of pushing my own agenda from time to time.
That sounds like a great start! And keep in mind that every time you love bust her, you UNDO about a months worth of good behavior and push her farther and farther away.
I guess my question now is....How do I get her to want to try MB when she barely has time for herself? Having read much of the web site and listened to the radio shows, I truly believe that it has given me a better perspective of my issues and how to address them in their simplest form. I believe that by using these tools, we can rebuild this to better than it has ever been.
Tomorrow, our youngest graduates from high school. She will be leaving for school in the fall. This will be a very emotional day for my wife and I. How am I to be there for her without making it look like I am pushing her? If you read a bit back, it bit me in the butt earlier.
Any advice is greatly appreciated.
I went back and didn't miss anything. which one are you referring to? Sorry, I'm a little nervous
[
Considering the limited time that I have with her (I sometimes work nights) and her crunched time schedule, I'm not sure what ENs I would have a chance to meet. I know that I let her use me as a sounding board for her day. I make her coffee in the mornings, compliment her outfit and give her positive encouragement when she remarks that things are piling up on her and she is afraid she will fail. What else would y'all suggest?
I would strongly suggest changing your work schedule so you are with her as much as possible. Because you can't have a marriage if you work/live opposing schedules. And you certainly won't be able to create an integrated, romantic marriage if you are working nights. All of the above efforts are nice, but won't sustain a marriage.
Yes, I read that one. I'm looking but haven't found anything yet. I'm out 2 or 3 nights a week right now. Sometimes less. Even when I am home, her attention is focused on her graduate courses. We can literally go days without saying much more than hi and bye. This is an 18 month program. Am I not seeing the opportunity here?
Yes, I read that one. I'm looking but haven't found anything yet. I'm out 2 or 3 nights a week right now. Sometimes less. Even when I am home, her attention is focused on her graduate courses. We can literally go days without saying much more than hi and bye. This is an 18 month program. Am I not seeing the opportunity here?
Ok, I understand her attention is focused elsewhere. But in order to focus it on your marriage, you have to BE THERE. Couples who have opposing lifestyles always have problems in their marriages. In order to turn this around, you need to be available to each other in the evenings, go to bed at the same time and get up at the same time. You need to set up your lifestyle so you CAN do that.
Do you not see that you have to be there in the evening to turn this around?
I do see that. As I look to change the employment status, what else could you suggest?
I do see that. As I look to change the employment status, what else could you suggest?
A good question to ask yourself would be "does this job complement my marriage?" Automatic deal breakers should be overnight travel, evening shifts, night shifts, for example.
And in the meantime, I would strive to be as attractive as possible. Absolutely no love busters. Be supportive and kind. Look for opportunities to ask her out on dates.
There is no overnight travel. My job is unique. I work from home managing teams that do valet trash collection service at apartment complexes.
A long standing complaint from her was that I never did anything around the house. Since starting this job (Nov 2014), I have the time to do the things that need to be done around the house (yard, laundry, cooking, straightening, shopping, etc...). By her own admission, this made her furious. It shocked her that she focused more on "why now" versus "i'm glad he's doing it".
A long standing complaint from her was that I never did anything around the house. Since starting this job (Nov 2014), I have the time to do the things that need to be done around the house (yard, laundry, cooking, straightening, shopping, etc...). By her own admission, this made her furious. It shocked her that she focused more on "why now" versus "i'm glad he's doing it".
The goal will be to try and spend time with her. On dates. That is where I would focus. For me, I don't want a man doing things in the house and it sounds like she doesn't either. Even if she did, that would never restore the love in your marriage.
I realize she doesn't want much to do with you now, but if you will eliminate love busters, make yourself as pleasant as possible and look for opportunities to take her out, you will have a chance.
Thank you. I will post interactions when we have them. I am hoping for feedback from the community. Tomorrow is our daughter's high school graduation. It will be a trying time to say the least.
As an aside, I just emailed Dr. Harley. I'm a block of clay...please help mold me (or help me mold myself)
As an aside, I just emailed Dr. Harley. I'm a block of clay...please help mold me (or help me mold myself)
That is a good attitude!! People with open minds make the fastest improvements. So glad you emailed Dr Harley. He can be an enormous help.
I think I did a good thing.
My W is stressed to the hilt over this class she is doing. With our daughter's graduation being today and family coming in, she was pressed for time this week to do a paper and get it submitted prior to everything getting started. This morning, I awoke around 3 or so to find her out of bed. I suspected that she got up early to do the paper. I laid in bed until around 4 then remembered there was something work related that I forgot to to yesterday.
When I got downstairs, she was emerging from the room where our printer is. I asked her how it was going and it got tense from there. Apparently, the professor for this course didn't post some guidance until late last night which caused W to have to start over from scratch on her paper. Further, W was scored down on a project from last week for a reason that W is rebutting with the professor. At the end, she said not to talk to me that she was stressed. All of this was communicated to me with an ever increasing rate of speech and harshness of tone. I paused. I took a breath. I told her that I understood and didn't say another word.
Good choice?
I began motoring around the kitchen (making tea for the day, brewing myself a cup of coffee, swapping clothes between the washer and dryer, handwashing a couple of cups...). She exclaimed to me "its 4 in the morning, why don't you go to bed". I paused. I took a breath. I said that I had things to do. Then she got sarcastic and asked if there was any way that I could make any more noise. I paused. I took a breath. I apologized for disturbing her.
Please, somebody tell me that I did good this morning. It was difficult not to get defensive and cause more trouble.
Flustered.
This morning, I awoke around 3 or so to find her out of bed.
...
When I got downstairs, she was emerging from the room where our printer is. I asked her how it was going and it got tense from there.
At the end, she said not to talk to me that she was stressed. All of this was communicated to me with an ever increasing rate of speech and harshness of tone.
...
She exclaimed to me "its 4 in the morning, why don't you go to bed". I paused. I took a breath. I said that I had things to do. Then she got sarcastic and asked if there was any way that I could make any more noise. I paused. I took a breath. I apologized for disturbing her.
I know you indicated earlier in the thread that there are no affairs going on. And I'm sure that the stress from the school situtation you described could explain everything above. But from reading dozens (maybe hundreds?) of threads on this forum over the last couple months, I'd expect one of the veterans to come along soon and urge you to investigate the possibility that your wife may be having an affair.
Please, somebody tell me that I did good this morning. It was difficult not to get defensive and cause more trouble.
You did a fantastic job IMO. I think most of us find it extremely difficult to remain calm and cordial when we feel that someone we love is treating us with rudeness and disrespect. Given the circumstances you've described, I don't know how you could have handled it any better. Well done.
You did a fantastic job IMO. I think most of us find it extremely difficult to remain calm and cordial when we feel that someone we love is treating us with rudeness and disrespect. Given the circumstances you've described, I don't know how you could have handled it any better. Well done.
I appreciate your input. Later in the morning she was able to speak to me civilly, but no apology. I honestly don't think she knew what she was doing at the time or how it made me feel. The concept of Brutal Honesty comes to mind, but I feel that it would be better served to let it lie a while. Not a good time to hit her with a complaint. Am I thinking logically?
It's Radical Honesty. I remember feeling like that when I went back to school. I didn't express myself well then either.
How would you respectfully voice a complaint?
I get the impression that your body language probably expressed it pretty loudly already though
I could be wrong, just a feeling from this side of the screen. What do you think?
I guess I would use "when you, I feel" to verbalize my concern. As for body language, not so sure.
Well, last night could have gone better.
I am a district manager for a firm that provides door to door trash collection for apartment complexes. My teams collect at night.
I have always been a slave to my job. Momma taught me that. After graduation ceremony, W kept on about how SHE had raised, and SHE had toiled....it hurt. On the way home, she asked what was bothering me. I asked if I had really not been there. She said "most of the time". You could have knocked me over with a feather. I knew that I wasn't always there but didn't realize how much. At the same time, I was proud that this job didn't pull me like the others.
Then j got home to my work phone, I got a message from one of my guys who no notice quit. I tried to get coverage to no avail. End result was that I had to leave and do it myself.
I blew up. Not at anyone in the house, but at the situation. In short, my mom and sister left early and I slammed doors on my way out. ...a chance to be a different kind of parent blown by some idiots desire to not work.
I knew I had screwed up the minute I got into my truck. It didn't matter who the AO had been toward. Thus morning, W said she couldn't take many more like that.
What the hell is wrong with me?
Just get back on the horse and apologize for your behavior. I would also look into a good anger management class that will teach you to RELAX when you get frustrated. It can be a great help.
Believe it or not, the VA is setting me up with Anger Management. I'm just waiting on them to call with the information.
This morning, I decided that she should see what I have seen. I copied the Basic Concepts and sent them to her in an email. I will allow her to read it in her leisure (if she wants) then let her bring it up afterwards. The concern I have is that she might think that I have "found the magic pill" and won't really address the specific concerns that she has had over the years.
I believe in Dr. Harley's teachings. I am convinced that it can bring us out of the hole we are in and give us the everyday tools to take us to a place we haven't seen before.
I guess my biggest hurdle is.....wait for it....ME
Believe it or not, the VA is setting me up with Anger Management. I'm just waiting on them to call with the information.
I think this is a big step. AO's are a huge LB, and the fact that your W just told you she can't take many more of those is a pretty big clue. Did you already apologize to your W for your AO? Have you told your wife about your plans for anger management counseling?
If you haven't yet apologized, I think an apology would carry extra weight if you also told her that you are serious about eliminating AO, and are going to counseling for it. If applicable, you might also consider apologizing in general for having an AO problem throughout your marriage.
Also consider whether you want to apologize in person or in writing. I've found that it is much, easier for me to express myself honestly and in a heartfelt way when I do it in writing. It also avoids potentially sticky issues in a verbal conversation where you don't articulate your position effectively, or you inadvertently say something that triggers an argument, or your W responds to your apology with sarcasm and makes you defensive, etc. Lots of things can go wrong in a verbal conversation when your W is withdrawn, especially if you're prone to AO's.
This morning, I decided that she should see what I have seen. I copied the Basic Concepts and sent them to her in an email. I will allow her to read it in her leisure (if she wants) then let her bring it up afterwards. The concern I have is that she might think that I have "found the magic pill" and won't really address the specific concerns that she has had over the years.
I think your concern is valid. If she doesn't think you respect her opinion, she might even reject MB out of hand. At the very least I'd be prepared for her to be skeptical about it, if not downright hostile. In that case, your best course of action will be to diligently avoid LB's and basically be the world's best husband to the extent that she'll allow it.
BThis morning, I decided that she should see what I have seen. I copied the Basic Concepts and sent them to her in an email. I will allow her to read it in her leisure (if she wants) then let her bring it up afterwards. The concern I have is that she might think that I have "found the magic pill" and won't really address the specific concerns that she has had over the years.
I would address those specific concerns in the letter and tell her how you are going to resolve them. Otherwise, she might interpret sending the MB concepts as an attempt to change HER. You might tell her that Marriage Builders would advise you to address and resolve your angry outbursts FIRST.
Show her how MB will serve to resolve her complaints about you.
You could write Dr. Harley. He will tell you to eliminate your AO and other LBs first. It may encourage your wife to hear what a stern stance Dr. Harley takes against your behavior. Or you could suscribe to radio archives and find several clips in which he discuss the danger of angry outbursts.There are also numerous clips posted on the site. Check Prochoice's thread "Healing is Stuck" in the Surviving an Affair.
Scotty, I would bring her here and show her this thread. She will be able to read how you have changed your attitude since you have been here. We would like to hear her perspective. We will support her here.
I will invite her to the thread once she has had a chance to read my email and let me know how she feels about it.
W knows about AM classes. I sincerely apologized last night and this morning. Hope it helps.
W knows about AM classes. I sincerely apologized last night and this morning.
Good -- hopefully she accepts your apology at face value and understands you're sincere.
FWIW, I still recommend writing to her about sensitive topics if you run into any difficulties with a verbal conversation. Mostly because you can avoid any chance of accidental LB's that might arise during an interactive conversation. Once you have your AO's under control, this might not be as relevant to you.
I like the idea of letters. She used for exactly that reason in an earlier issue.
I will invite her to the thread once she has had a chance to read my email and let me know how she feels about it.
W knows about AM classes. I sincerely apologized last night and this morning. Hope it helps.
The apology will help a tiny bit, but it will be meaningless if not accompanied by a change in your behavior. An apology without change means nothing, just keep that in mind.
yes Melody, I am painfully aware of that. Re-reading the letters from 11 years ago has shown me how hollow my actions were back then. I just hope that she is not so withdrawn that I cannot get to her.
Well, she read the basic concepts and isn't ready for MB. She says it is 5-6 steps ahead of where she is today. She's crawled so deep in a hole that she can't see tomorrow. She maintains that she needs to deal with her demons before she can consider working on us. This is probably the most difficult part for me. I have to wait till she figures herself out before I can learn if we are gonna work on us.
I've decided to be a better man. FOR ME. I'd love her to reap the benefits of the better man, but I don't get to make that call. I don't know how to live in the shadows...waiting for her to want/need me.
I have been battling major depression with anxiety for years and have had difficulty dealing with our young children during their "rebellious" stages. My outbursts caused many problems both with the kids and with her. Adding to that, my doctors were constantly changing my depression medication to find a combination that worked. In 2010, things got weird.
The best way to describe it was that I fell into a fog. I don't remember much from that time. I know that I reconnected with an old girlfriend (not an affiar) and she questioned whether or not I was truly happy in my marriage. after our talks, she was convinced that I was giving up my own identity to keep my wife happy. I rolled with this and made a decision to separate by moving out of the house into our travel trailer to get my head together and find out if I could find my backbone. The day I was supposed to move, she found me almost catatonic sitting on the front porch. Needless to say, I didn't move out. We went back to counseling and things began to get better.
Here's where today's problem picked up its momentum. From that time in 2010 until about 6 months ago, I remained in the "fog" in one fashion or another. We were like roommates. My sex drive went to zero. We still hugged and kissed, but there was no real intimacy. My job was stressful and my fog was real. I coasted for almost 5 years.
Hrm, looks like she 'lived in the shadows' waiting for you to want/need her for a very long time.
What does this mean? What kind of investigating have you done?
Snooped quite a bit in April. If she led a Secret Second Life, she would need more hours in the day to pull it off.
Snooped quite a bit in April. If she led a Secret Second Life, she would need more hours in the day to pull it off.
Keep quietly snooping. Women in withdrawal can be vulnerable. She may not have a SSL but she could meet someone today or next week. If you catch anything that looks suspicious, come back here for advice. Do not confront her.
Today is our daughter's graduation party. W is doing her homework and I've been getting stuff from the store. It's amazing how civil two people can be when they aren't around each other.
It will pain me to see a genuine smile when our friends are here. When they leave, it will be back to just us and the smile will disappear.
Snooped quite a bit in April. If she led a Secret Second Life, she would need more hours in the day to pull it off.
You don't need any hours in the day to pull off a SSL. It can be done by phone and email while you are doing something else.
I hope that's not an issue. I want her to crawl outta this cave and let us put MB to work.
Made it through the evening. She got really reminiscent towards the end missing her daddy. I wish she would have let me be s shoulder for her.
Snooped quite a bit in April. If she led a Secret Second Life, she would need more hours in the day to pull it off.
She does not need hours in a day to carry on an affair.
What kind of snooping did you do in April? Do you have full access to her phone, computer, social media accounts, etc?
What kind of snooping did you do in April?
both email accounts, facebook, all communication on her cell phone. We have an application on our phones that shows one another where we are. it has stayed active
Scotty,
I heard your segment on MB Radio last week. Did you find it to be helpful? I thought you and the Harleys did a good job outlining the situation, but I don't recall hearing specific suggestions you could use to help bring your wife out of withdrawal. Maybe there was more to your conversation off the air.
Regardless, how are things going with you? Any LB's recently? Any signs of a thawing frost between you and your wife?
As far as I can tell I've stopped the LBs. W is still pretty withdrawn. She focuses on work and her masters. This past weekend, I went out of town to help my mother and give W some space. My daughter stayed behind. There were some grumbling about my "running home to mommy" but in the same breath she said the silence was good. I'm living my life and being there to provide what she will allow.
This past weekend, I went out of town to help my mother and give W some space.
BAD idea.
As far as I can tell I've stopped the LBs. W is still pretty withdrawn. She focuses on work and her masters. ...I'm living my life and being there to provide what she will allow.
Sounds like you're doing the best you can given the circumstances. It must be frustrating knowing or suspecting that her love bank is closed to you, but all you can really do is continue attempting to meet her EN's in the absence of LB's, and hope that some of those deposits somehow make it through and have an effect. I can imagine that it's painful to have your love for her unrequited when you're apparently trying so hard. Hang in there.
This past weekend, I went out of town to help my mother and give W some space.
BAD idea.
Please tell me why. My mother needed help and she needed me to give her space.
You can't coax her out of withdrawal if you aren't there.
Also a major part of the program is not being apart over night.
What was so Important that you abandoned your wife for the weekend?
This past weekend, I went out of town to help my mother and give W some space.
BAD idea.
Please tell me why. My mother needed help and she needed me to give her space.
Scotty, if you'll look at the Marriage Builders plan for restoring marriages, giving each other space isn't on the list.
To save a marriage, you need to develop habits that make massive love bank deposits on a regular basis, and eliminate habits that make love bank withdrawals. When that is done and has been in place for a long time, both of you will crave each other's company rather than desiring "space." But "space" doesn't help build love bank deposit habits or help eliminate love bank withdrawal habits.
Here's how Dr. Harley learned to save marriages:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3100_how.htmlhttp://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi1002_harley.html
As far as I can tell I've stopped the LBs. W is still pretty withdrawn. She focuses on work and her masters. ...I'm living my life and being there to provide what she will allow.
Sounds like you're doing the best you can given the circumstances. It must be frustrating knowing or suspecting that her love bank is closed to you, but all you can really do is continue attempting to meet her EN's in the absence of LB's, and hope that some of those deposits somehow make it through and have an effect. I can imagine that it's painful to have your love for her unrequited when you're apparently trying so hard. Hang in there.
SeekMore, could you let us tell him what more he could be doing, rather than telling him there's no more he can do?
Most men who get here think they are doing everything they can do, and they are mistaken.
I stand corrected. She wants to be left alone but I need to be there. Hard to reconcile
Curious--how would you make head way (make love bank deposits) without being there?
I get your point, if I am not there I cannot make deposits. However, in speaking with my W today, she thanked me sincerely for giving her the space over the weekend. Could that also be a deposit?
Please understand, I am not trying to argue with any of you. I want to do the absolute best that I can do to turn this marriage around. It just seems to me that based on her reaction, deposits were made.
In the future, I will not leave her alone. I need this to repair.
I get your point, if I am not there I cannot make deposits. However, in speaking with my W today, she thanked me sincerely for giving her the space over the weekend. Could that also be a deposit?
No, because you can't make deposits if you are not there. Being GONE is not a love bank deposit. It is a desire of someone who is checked out and wants to stay checked out. The solution is NOT to aggravate the detachment but to turn it around. You can't turn it around if you aren't there. Agreeing to do things that are not good for your marriage does not make the bad act good for your marriage.
Let me put it this way. If your car is broken down in the garage, do you fix it by going to the garage and working on it? Or do you fix it by going to Cleveland, Ohio?
I get your point, if I am not there I cannot make deposits. However, in speaking with my W today, she thanked me sincerely for giving her the space over the weekend. Could that also be a deposit?
No, it's not.
There are four intimate emotional needs. These are the ones that make the big love bank deposits that are required for being in love. People do not fall in love over domestic support or babysitting the kids. These are the four intimate emotional needs:
* Recreational companionship
* Conversation
* Affection
* Sexual fulfillment
Typically two of these will make big deposits for a person. A spouse in Withdrawal will say they don't want these and will try to prevent their spouse from meeting these needs. Read through Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts again, and read closely the section called "three states of mind in marriage."
When my wife was in withdrawal, it annoyed her for me to try to make love bank deposits. A wife in withdrawal wants her husband to do things that will calmly and quietly ruin their marriage, and will thank him for it.
Between Withdrawal and Intimacy lies Conflict. When she comes out of Withdrawal, she will come out swinging.
Ok. I get it. She's in withdrawl and refuses to allow deposits. She's polite, but that's the best She will do.
What now?
As far as I can tell I've stopped the LBs. W is still pretty withdrawn. She focuses on work and her masters. This past weekend, I went out of town to help my mother and give W some space. My daughter stayed behind. There were some grumbling about my "running home to mommy" but in the same breath she said the silence was good. I'm living my life and being there to provide what she will allow.
The "running home to mommy" comment is very telling. Wives expect to be first in their husband's lives. Your wife doesn't think she is. You need to demonstrate that she is first through your actions.
OK, let's get caught up here.
It has been 61 days since W revealed that she wanted to separate after the youngest got off to college. This began my journey of discovery and repair. I dove into the MB program and got the books. While I'm not perfect, I'm pretty sure that my LBs have come to a halt.
She is in a high stress, high responsibility position in a hospital. Further, she is working on a Graduate Degree. Our days look like this....
she is up at 430, departs home at 6 for work. Returns home @6 or so and has the dinner I prepared for the evening. After dinner, we go to the deck and she talks about her day. I listen intently, without inputting anything about me or my day. I'm just there to listen. After she downloads her day, she goes inside and works on her schoolwork until about 11. Then she goes to bed. This happens 5 days a week. On Saturday/sunday, she spends all or part of the days on homework, or pampering herself (mani/pedi, hair appts), or a combination of both.
Aside from what I put her through over the past several years, she is carrying the hurt of a rough year. My dad died, her dad died, she lost several aunts/uncles, two of our children left the home, our youngest has now graduated and is heading out of state to college in the fall. In her words, she hasn't dealt with any of it. Instead (her words), she compartmentalized it all -- "put it in a box". She relates that she has put up walls and presently is mostly numb. She relates that she has to work on "her" before she can decide if she wants to work on "us". She doesn't want to talk about "us".
Physically -- she is shut off from me. No hugs, no pecks on the cheek, no hand holding -- nothing. we sleep in the same bed but she withdraws to her side of the bed.
She doesn't seem to be very interested in what goes on in my day-to-day. She rarely asks. I presented MB to her a few weeks back by giving her the basic concepts. She thinks it is hokey. I offered to let her read LB and she has declined.
This is where we stand. There is no indication of EA or PA. I've seen all relevant forms of communication and we have active GPS tracking on our phones. I want "us" to be better. Better than we ever were. I feel with the tools that MB has taught me, I can be (am becoming) a better man, a better husband, a better partner.
Is there something that I'm not doing that would be helpful?
Ok. I get it. She's in withdrawl and refuses to allow deposits. She's polite, but that's the best She will do.
What now?
You keep trying to spend time with her. You avoid fighting with her at all costs. You read Dr. Harley's friends and enemies of good conversation daily and attempt to practice this concept daily in talking to your wife. You give your wife affection, daily. If you've got children still living at home, you spend time with your wife and the children together. And you give your wife admiration frequently.
She doesn't seem to be very interested in what goes on in my day-to-day. She rarely asks.
She won't be interested in you until she falls in love with you again. Which she will do if you follow this plan patiently.
I presented MB to her a few weeks back by giving her the basic concepts. She thinks it is hokey. I offered to let her read LB and she has declined.
That's okay. It's enough that you made the attempt. The main thing is to get the husband on board with the program. According to Dr. Harley, if the wife is reluctant about Marriage Builders, but the husband is following the plan, the marriage still has a great chance of turning around.
You keep trying to spend time with her. You give your wife affection, daily.
How do I spend time with her when she doesn't want to? How do I give her affection if she won't allow it?
You keep trying to spend time with her. You give your wife affection, daily.
How do I spend time with her when she doesn't want to? How do I give her affection if she won't allow it?
Join her whenever possible, especially when she's relaxing, engaging in recreation, or escaping. Come up with fun activities and invite her to do them with you. She may decline, but keep coming up with new things and asking her.
Stay in contact with her every day as much as possible. Call her during the day from work just to say hello and ask how she's doing. Use texting, instant messenger, email, or whatever other means of contact is available to you. Call her on your way home.
Read Dr. Harley's Q&A column on affection and start doing the things it lists, daily. Tell her you love her. Write her notes and leave them for her when you go to work or slip them into her lunch, books, or whatever else. Buy her a card.
Have you read about the friends and enemies of good conversation yet?
Have you read about the friends and enemies of good conversation yet?
No, I haven't. Where is it?
Under the articles section. You should start with that article but work your way through all the basic concepts, then love busters, then emotional needs.
Have you read about the friends and enemies of good conversation yet?
No, I haven't. Where is it?
Here, and also in the Conversation chapter of His Needs, Her Needs:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5056_qa.htmlDid you read what I said to do with them?
Join her whenever possible, especially when she's relaxing, engaging in recreation, or escaping. Come up with fun activities and invite her to do them with you. She may decline, but keep coming up with new things and asking her.
Stay in contact with her every day as much as possible. Call her during the day from work just to say hello and ask how she's doing. Use texting, instant messenger, email, or whatever other means of contact is available to you. Call her on your way home.
Read Dr. Harley's Q&A column on affection and start doing the things it lists, daily. Tell her you love her. Write her notes and leave them for her when you go to work or slip them into her lunch, books, or whatever else. Buy her a card.
I believe this is what you were referring to Markos?
W came home from work. It appeared she had a bad day. I went to the kitchen to give her a hug -- she sidestepped and started reading her phone. Went to the deck and listened to her talk about work. I decided that it was time to do some investigating. I asked her that if she could do anything she wanted for a week what would she do. She said Paris. I asked more questions to see what she would want to do and where she would want to go and it was nice to see her lighten up while answering the questions. Then she finished her smoke, grabbed her stuff and went inside without as much as a word.
Is that the definition of taking the good with the bad?
W came home from work. It appeared she had a bad day. I went to the kitchen to give her a hug -- she sidestepped and started reading her phone.
Heh - it bugged her a bit that you were being affectionate. It doesn't mesh with her view of you as a husband she's not in love with any more.
Went to the deck and listened to her talk about work. I decided that it was time to do some investigating. I asked her that if she could do anything she wanted for a week what would she do. She said Paris. I asked more questions to see what she would want to do and where she would want to go and it was nice to see her lighten up while answering the questions.
You did good!
Go on in after her and have an enjoyable evening with her.
We met some friends for snacks and drinks. I love her smile. Just wish she would donut when it's just me.
Try to finagle that around to doing something alone with you next time. Get creative, and be persistent and patient.
So, I assume you're home now, so go spend time with her. Be charming and fun to be with, like a guy in high school who's interested in a certain girl and wants her to start dating him.
I tried markos, I really did. she was more interested in diving into facebook then going to bed. I couldn't join her (not that it would have led to anything) because I still had work to finish.
I had a thought today. She says that I am asking her to act against the feelings she has by coming nearer to me. On the flip side, she is asking me to act against the feelings that I have by keeping my distance.
Cruel world, huh?
I tried markos, I really did. she was more interested in diving into facebook then going to bed. I couldn't join her (not that it would have led to anything) because I still had work to finish.
Keep trying.
Ask her about her facebook conversations. Just like a friend would - you're interested in her life, and you want to be a part of it.
I had a thought today. She says that I am asking her to act against the feelings she has by coming nearer to me.
Part of me wants to respond to that by rolling on the floor laughing. It's so true. This is exactly how the love bank works. She has negative feelings toward you. She'll never know what hit you as you make love bank deposits and, gradually, her feelings change.
BUT
Let me hasten to add that this really sounds like a red flag for an affair! That sounds a bit like a woman who is feeling loyalty to someone else!
Which makes it important to get some spyware going and find out who she really is talking to once Facebook, y'know?
she was more interested in diving into facebook then going to bed.
While I understand the red flag concerns, I monitor FB daily. Nothing going on there.
While I understand the red flag concerns, I monitor FB daily. Nothing going on there.
Keep it up.
And make it a topic of conversation. Use conversation to investigate, inform, and understand your spouse.
Did you re-read the friends and enemies of good conversation today?
I hope that your monitoring includes a keylogger.
I have re read the conversation piece, and the key logger is in place.
Trip out of town for the evening to see daughter's band play. She's kind of standoffish. Making the best of it. Planted seed for a little bit of intimacy tonight. Will see what happens.
NOPE. as much as I tried, couldn't even get her to hold my hand in the truck on the way home.
Still, I persist
How do I keep from being disillusioned. How do I persist in the face of such rejection? How do I stay on track without feeling lost?
Think about all you have to lose if you give up. Maybe think about all the years your wife endured disrespect and angry outbursts. Given years of bad behavior it is going to take time to build up your account in her love bank because you are overdrawn.
But remember, deposits can be made even if she doesn't want them, so keep at it.
Would it help to write out your plan overview then create a detailed weekly plan? That might keep you better focused.
Trying desperately to schedule a date night downtown. Dinner, drinks, dancing, maybe a piano bar. She's afraid she will disappoint me due to what she wouldn't be willing to do. I reminded her that she got to set the limits...but if she set them loose enough, I'd show her a time like she's never seen.
Too much?
No. Keep at it. Lightly. It's just some fun etc....
I'm just afraid I will urge for more than she's willing to give.
NOPE. as much as I tried, couldn't even get her to hold my hand in the truck on the way home.
Expect her to act this way for some time. It's normal.
You'll be trying to hug a porcupine for awhile.
If it becomes too much to handle, get on antidepressants and keep pressing on.
We wound up spending Saturday evening at a concert. The evening went well (I think) but not exactly as I suspected it might. As is customary, she had a drink or two with dinner and a couple at the concert.
As it was the eve of Father's Day, she became sullen and we spent a good amount of time outside the venue. She spent a great deal of time talking about how much she missed her dad. Considering the fact that she hasn't really allowed herself to grieve since he died in November, I think understand what she is going through.
This topic transitioned to the topic of us. Her (and her counselor) feel strongly that she needs to deal with her issues before she can focus on "us". She related over and over that she didn't know how it would work out. Some of what she said related more to rambling than to conversational speech -- but I didn't stand in the way. At least she was communicating with me.
At one point she said she wanted an honest answer to a question -- then asked me if I've ever asked a question in that I was afraid of what the answer might be. Her question -- if this didn't work out, could we still be friends? I thought for a short minute and answered that YES, we could probably be friends, but that it might take a while to get beyond the loss of the marital relationship and simply be friends. I couldn't tell how she felt about that answer.
At this point, she had consumed a couple more drinks and was "waxing philosophically". I asked her if she wanted to take a walk and get somewhere quieter so we could hear ourselves think. We did and for the most part, I let her talk -- empathizing with her when the situation called for it. I paid particular attention to not verbalize anything regarding me. I let this be about her -- how she felt and what she was comfortable with. Somehow the discussion transitioned to sex. She wants it, she needs it, but expressed over and over that she didn't want to "lead me on" and set a potential false sense of "its all ok". I assured her that I was there to provide her with whatever I could to help meet her needs and that I could handle that it was a temporary thing and didn't mean that we had gotten over the hump.
**EDIT**
The next morning, the tension wasn't as "present" and we seemed to have a good day. I was mindful not to pretend like it was the night before and that everything was all better.
Father's Day was uneventful -- only one kiddo home. I didn't want to make a big deal of the day out of respect for the hurt she still feels regarding her father's death. We ordered pizza and watched movies. As 8pm approached, I had a few things that I had to take care of for work. I told her I loved her and kissed her on her forehead as I headed to the office. By the time I finished my tasks, she had gone off to bed (430 was going to come early in the am).
I was estatic over the weekend. I think the fact that she talked to me (alcohol influenced or not) was an encouraging sign. During the pleasure phase of the evening, I felt that there was still that connection. I wasn't upset that it was one sided. I simply wanted to show her that I could give her pleasure instead of the pain that she remembers from the past couple of years.
Did I do right? Did I do too much? Was there something that I should have done that I didn't? You guys/gals have seen/experienced a lot more of these kind of situations. I hope that you can continue to help guide me through to the end game -- true reconciliation.
I think you did good, even though you didn't have to give us that gross sexually graphic description.
That was completely unnecessary.
Something is going on behind the scenes that you don't know about that is driving this boat. I believe she is having an affair and you just haven't uncovered it yet. There are many red flags here, but another one that came up is her request for you to be her "friend" if the marriage ends. That is terribly important to adulterers because they want to keep spouse around as an option in case the affair doesn't work out. A spouse that is leaving the marriage because the marriage is so bad, doesn't want to be "friends" with the spouse. After all, they are leaving the marriage to get away from this person, why would they want to remain "friends?"
It also helps alleviate their guilt over breaking up the marriage. "please be my friend even tho I just stuck it to you."
Her counselor is very probably encouraging her to end the marriage, and/or separate. For certain, the counselor is not helping your marriage.
Please step up your spy resources. There are way too many red flags here.
Wouldnt' it be terrible if you found out later that you went to all these extraordinary lengths when the problem was an affair all along? And that while you were focusing on something else, the affair became more and more entrenched? It became so entrenched that you missed your opportunity to bust it up and save your marriage.
Wouldn't that be terrible? And wouldn't you be MAD at us for not pushing you to rule it out? Because that has happened around here!!
I am not dismissing y'alls experience or insight. I've done everything I can think of and have found nada. Only thing I haven't done is follow her around at work. That would be hard to pull off as it is in a restricted area. no emails, no texts, no chats, keylogger in place. gps active and functioning.
I am not dismissing y'alls experience or insight. I've done everything I can think of and have found nada. Only thing I haven't done is follow her around at work. That would be hard to pull off as it is in a restricted area. no emails, no texts, no chats, keylogger in place. gps active and functioning.
What about a voice activated recorder in her car? Do you have spyware on her phone?
Just a reminder that our TOS forbid posting graphic sexual details on the forum. Thanks.
Well, W asked me to stop with the post its, cards, gifts and loving messages. She says she feels guilty that she is unable to reciprocate. I'm still taking care of the house, meals and such but don't know what to do beyond that.
Even so, we had a good weekend. No fights, dinner out and a movie. She starts another class today so I doubt she'll have any spare time for another 5 weeks.
Marriage counseling has stopped...as the counselor thinks she needs grief counseling first. W is having those sessions weekly.
W still won't entertain MB. She insists that she has to fix herself before she can work on "us".
What should I do to ensure EN's are still being met?
Well, W asked me to stop with the post its, cards, gifts and loving messages. She says she feels guilty...
Hmmm. I wonder why.
What should I do to ensure EN's are still being met?
Join her whenever possible, especially when she's relaxing, engaging in recreation, or escaping. Come up with fun activities and invite her to do them with you. She may decline, but keep coming up with new things and asking her.
Stay in contact with her every day as much as possible. Call her during the day from work just to say hello and ask how she's doing. Use texting, instant messenger, email, or whatever other means of contact is available to you. Call her on your way home.
Read Dr. Harley's Q&A column on affection and start doing the things it lists, daily. Tell her you love her. Write her notes and leave them for her when you go to work or slip them into her lunch, books, or whatever else. Buy her a card.
"....Read Dr. Harley's Q&A column on affection and start doing the things it lists, daily. Tell her you love her. Write her notes and leave them for her when you go to work or slip them into her lunch, books, or whatever else. Buy her a card....."
As I said above, I was doing these things and she asked me to stop because she felt guilty that she couldn't reciprocate at this time. From the damage her mother caused early on, W has always felt this way.
I'm looking for creative ideas that won't trigger her guilt.
Thanks in advance
As I said above, I was doing these things and she asked me to stop because she felt guilty that she couldn't reciprocate at this time.
Don't stop.
I'm looking for creative ideas that won't trigger her guilt.
Don't worry about that. She may work through a range of emotions as she falls back in love with you. That's for her to handle, not you. Just be the charming guy who is pursuing her.
Thanks markos. In the short term...I think it is working some. she has allowed some things that were previously off limits. She still makes sure that I know that a sign on her part doesn't necessarily mean she has come that far --- only that she is testing the waters.
My problem occurs when she is silent. As much as I try to avoid it, my mind runs away with all sorts of scary thoughts when she is completely disengaged. When we interact, things settle down. I am putting my effort into reducing/eliminating that anxiety so I can "allow her to miss me" as she put it.
I'm far from being an expert and appreciate all of the comments and direction.
My problem occurs when she is silent. As much as I try to avoid it, my mind runs away with all sorts of scary thoughts when she is completely disengaged.
What do you do when you are feeling anxious? Make sure that you don't become demanding, disrespectful, or angry.
Dr. Harley also has some good relaxation therapy exercises you can do to reduce the anxiety.
What do you do when you are feeling anxious? Make sure that you don't become demanding, disrespectful, or angry.
When I get anxious I get paranoid and imagine all sorts of stuff. Makes me want to go to her for reassurance. I know better and am working on it. I am using Dr. Harley's relaxation tips as well as those I got from my counselor a while back.
Thanks
sorry, forgot to address the other part of that.
I have made it a point to avoid the LBs. In fact, I have printed them on small sheets of paper. I have one in my money clip, one taped to the back of my debit card, one on the screen of my computer, one on the washing machine (i spend a lot of time there...lol) and one laminated and slipped into the cellophane of my cigarette pack. I refuse to let something under my control stand in the way of getting my marriage back -- better than it ever was.
You see, having studied Dr. Harley's writings, I have come to the conclusion that for almost 27 years, we were winging it. Its not surprising that we have had troubles. As far as I can tell, we both did almost everything wrong. Now, I don't tell her that she was wrong for 27 years....I'm not that stupid. There will be a time that, hopefully, she will get into MB and realize it for herself. For now, I am identifying my mistakes and putting a fresh face on tomorrow. I am learning to replace the poor choices of the past with wiser ones that I have recently learned.
When she had me move out in 2004, she didn't come back until she saw that I had given up and moved on. I'm afraid that it might take that for her to come around this time. I won't; however, voluntarily leave the house this time. I have learned the damage that can cause.
I am realistic in that this might not come together. If no, I will be a better man for the experience. As I told someone...I am becoming a better man for me. I just hope that she sticks around to reap the benefits.
Thanks again.
It's been 10 days and nothing has changed. I am not committing LB's and am trying to make deposits in any way that I can. I know that I need to be patient.
I'm doing the best that I know how.
Lets see.....she moved out on my birthday, we reconciled in january 16, bought a new house, things started going south again after about 6 months, now she's dropped "filed" divorce papers on me effective 28 Feb 2017. She feels that I never quit Manipulating everything and everyone around me in order to get what i want or to turn things around and make them all about me. maybe true. i got 3 doctors or psychologists trying to help me figure it out.
This one is done. I can see the writing on the wall.
You can figure it out yourself.
You never followed the program consistently and you and our wife where not in love.
What do you want to do?
You will only see good results if you do the work.
Are you on board?