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I wouldn't mind if he did - that way he MIGHT start to have an idea of what I am going thru.

But........... I doubt it.

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OK, for what it is worth, I believe him. I think he may have thought that he could stay for the sake of the kids but found out differently. If you are willing to reconcile, consider having a recovery plan which you can see. That means that he spends time alone with you. Harley's program, at base, is very simple: spend 15 hours per week together and never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse.
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www2
almost exactly the way my dday went. i found out b4 he knew i knew and i probed for details. too bad you didn't get it on tape. be sure to put your recorder in your pocket when you get home tonight b4 any discussions.

i totally disagree w/what someone said up above "once a cheater always a cheater" if that were the case, why are any of us here?

if you didn't read surviving an affair, you wouldn't be aware of the totally fog ridden life these wayward spouses have. they live in a dream world, they are clueless. they are not doing this to hurt you, your a bystander in all of this. dearpeggy.com, the author peggy's husband was a professor and had over 15 affairs. my friends husband had a sexual addiction. both are married to this day and working through their problems. if i remember correctly from reading your old posts, you specifically said you stopped trying. i do not blame you. i would not blame you for not trying to reconcile. we can not tell you what to do. you know your heart. your heart does not love right now due to all of this betrayal. if you remember back to what you loved about your h originally and if there is a chance of getting that back would you do it?

you are at plan b stage. study plan b. you have a perfect opportunity to call all the shots. the no contact letter, him leaving his job (because she's still there and that would be contact). if he truly is sorry and some of the fog has lifted, you will know the truth when he says yes or no to the above. if he can't follow the above there are no other options but divorce, plain and simple. you call the shots now sweetie. you are in the drivers seat.

you can turn your marriage back into what it was in the early days. you can save your children from this devistation by giving your h boundaries he must follow. if he does not, it is his fault, not yours.

i am disheartened i have not heard anyone speak of the fog these wh's are in and how anything he did in the past is a result. my h was totally an [censored] while things were going on. he did not sleep in another bedroom, however he would screw her one nite and then me the next. aren't we all talking the same thing here?

go to the recovery board www2 and you will find so many women who are still with their "once a cheater always a cheater" husbands living in very good successful marriages. things can turn around, but this time YOU MUST FOLLOW THROUGH AND CALL THE SHOTS. anything he does not follow through on is reason to call it quits.

put it in writing for him to make it real simple or better yet print out plan b for him. you will know in short order if he can pull through. i have read stories where the h called the ow w/wife on other line and listened to the "no contact" words he says to ow. that's what i would need to hear. and how he never loved her and how he was such a fool so selfish and so confused etc and that his true love is his wife and he is going to make a go of it and to never contact again.

anyway, i wish you all the prayers and blessings at this confusing time. you need to do what's in your heart. you need to know what you want & need from a marriage. if he can commit, it might be worth a try.

hugs from another betrayed spouse who made a 2nd go of marriage to my "once a cheater always a cheater husband" and am pretty much 80% happy in the current place i am in.


"The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or even touched. They must be felt with the heart." Helen Keller
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From early page of this thread:

Quote
Recovery has been less than desirable. I won't go into all of it now, but after the last A, I tried everything and went to counseling for two years by myself. He would not go. All that matters to him is our kids. I am not important to him and I have learned to tolerate it - although I am extremely unhappy.

Tolerating chronic neglect and disrespect has been your weakness

are we clear?

Now .... your H sees something different .... something not-so-weak ... and he 'says' stuff which he thinks will weaken your resolve

are we clear?

what he 'says' means squat

here is my question to you

Are you willing to remain in a marriage that lacks respect?

spending 15 hours a week together is not going to restore the respect and the care in your marriage

standing up for yourself might!

.... and what does this mean?

Quote
but after the last A


has he had more than one affair while married to you?

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I think you should listen to 2334pem. She always gives excellent advice.

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believer, thanks for the compliment, i can't take credit, dr harley taught me most of what i know. hugs anyway.


"The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or even touched. They must be felt with the heart." Helen Keller
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Good post 2334pem


Married 1976
Me:BS
Him:FWS
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2 S's: '77 & '80, 1 D: '82
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Willing, 2334 and Pepper said some things I was trying to express. Heed their words, please.

In addition, I'd like to point out your husband has yet to admit to anything you didn't already know. Lord only knows how he got wind of your awakening, but I doubt very much he had a sudden epiphany. People don't have epiphanies very darned often without something hitting them over the head real hard.

The relevant factors are that you know he’s committed adultery again (or it never stopped), and he knows you know. He wants credit for admitting it, but that won’t fly. His insistence you didn’t know is pure nonsense…babble, if you want to use that word. Here in Texas, we’re inclined to be a little more graphic about it. I won’t say what comes to mind. Asking him how you knew to inquire about his poker buddies should poke a hole in his “I confessed” bubble very quickly. (BTW, have you talked to some of those buddies and would any of them agree to go so far as to testify in family court?)

Anyway, it seems to me he’s scrambling for any kind of moral “high road” before everything comes tumbling down. He’s weepy, desperate, wants to change…but exactly what is it he’s willing to DO? I admit a prejudice here. Words are cheap. It’s action…sustained action…that’s the important thing. After 4 or 5 years of bs’ing you, he’s a changed man?

Willing, you have my support in whatever you decide to do. Keep strong, lady!

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WTW,

I agree with Cherished. I believe him. I read somewhere that when an affair is on its way out that the WS tend to be careless and BS find out.

Prior to the installation of the GPS system, you found pills, a new pullover, shoes and PJ's. One of the golden rules after an affair is accountability. Your marriage councillor accepted him working with the OW and sleeping in separate rooms. I do not believe that any MC would say that after an affair, a WS can go out one night a week and not tell their spouse where or who with. When this behaviour started, this was a red flag that something was up.

I know that this is all in the past, but I am just wondering whether he could not break this affair on his own. This is why he was leaving clues along the way, so much so that in the past week, you had a rude awakening.

Funerals do have an affect on you. When you leave this earth, you want to be remembered for the good things you do. At his friends funeral, many people would have gotten up and spoken about what a great husband, father and son this person had been. He would have looked at himself and thought, what sort of pig have I been. I have a great wife, who despite the affair trusts me and look at how I have taken advantage of that.

I am not making any excuse for a 4year on going affair. I have told my husband that if he were to ever cheat again, we would be finished. BUT in the past, I told him that if he were to EVER cheat on me, it would be over, and it is not.

It is very easy to say this is what I would do if I were in that position. The truth of the matter is that until you are in that circumstance you just dont know.

WTW, do not make any decisions. Take it slowly. If you want to give him another chance, he has to win back your heart and trust. You need to be strong and show him that he either makes a complete change with 100% accountability, changes work and sleeps in the same bed or he is out. He needs to treat you with respect and care.

Take care and tread slowly.

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Thanks Pep,
You just saved me a lot of typing(which I am not good at)
As I have said before, I always look at the posters' reg date. It often tells volumes.
All blessings,
Jerry

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i'm curious, all of us who are not fws's would be a bs correct? did we not all tolerate disprespect? are most of us not in the process of marriage building? didn't we all pretty much start out reconciling w/our ws's?

Last edited by 2334pem; 01/16/06 04:21 PM.

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Hi Octobergirl,
I should have responded sooner but, I do no want to TJ W2W's thread. So I'll try to be brief.
I totally agree with everything you've said so we are not at all at odds.
I simply wanted to point out that there is always hope, even if there doesn't seem to be any. Having hope in the face of all adversity is called faith. It's something I had to cling to daily with all of my heart as I went through my anguise.
W2W, if you read this, know well that you must examine your heart fully. If this is even one ounce of a chance of forgiveness and reconciliation, you must at least consider it. It would not be a case of your WH deserving it, but rather, a case of what your heart can withstand, and God"s best choice for your M.!
Protect yourself and your children, it will now be your WH's burden to earn his way back into this M. If that doesn't happen, then I agree with the majority of posters, it will be time to move on without him. I'm just praying that it will not be the case here.
All of my blessings and prayers,
Jerry

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2334pem -yes we all did encounter disrespect and some had verbal abuse.


married 21
Together 26 -
OW 2yrs, he worked with her and found secret e-mail account.The first cut is the deepest.
just found out H is a serial cheater - total cut to pieces now- saw a D lawyer today.
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Dear WTW:

I am sorry I didn't get back to you earlier. I had houseguests over the weekend.

The new developments are troubling, to say the least. See, that is why I asked you earlier: What are your feelings about this? Because you have to live with your decisions and stand up for them. I asked you about your feelings on duty, keeping your vows etc. Once the rage subsides, you are left with your true feelings.

What are your feelings? I am asking you again, WTW.
You are unsure now...because WH reaches out to you NOW. All your resolve is up for grabs. Why? Because you were not sure about your feelings to begin with.

For four years I have been asking you to stand up for yourself. Look at yourself, make a decision and stick with it. Don't waver, don't make it so easy for him.

I have told you not to tolerate H's behavior. Do not allow him to disrespect you. Do not settle on the separate sleeping arrangements. Do not allow him free time with his "poker buddies" (Do you think I would let my H get away with a night out each week, where I do not know where he is? Sorry that right for privacy was lost with his A - FOREVER)

WTW, we -the BSs- are often enabling the As. Because we don't ask. We don't demand. We just tolerate unspeakable obnoxious behaviors.

I think your H reads here. You are a lot like me, you are honest, you can't keep a secret (I can't lie with a straight face, it is not my nature). I think he is trying to get back to the comfortable arrangement of the PAST FOUR YEARS. He didn't give up OW the first time around. He saw your pain and kept lying, kept meeting her for s** EVERY WEEK!

Excuse my asking...what is wrong with this picture?
EVERYTHING. He refused MC, IC, gave you all those rejections not for four weeks, not for four months, but for FOUR years.

WTW, please do not question your resolve. Do not get back together with this man. It is not a second chance you owe him. He has blown chance numbers 1 to 1460 (4 x 365).

He wants to keep you around to be the mother for his kids. Then he wants to get back together with OW. DO NOT ALLOW THIS. He knows about your plans. Be careful.

Hugs,




FBS 44, FWH 47
A during FWH's MLC
Forgive, live, love.
Everyday...

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He never hit bottom the first d day and went undercover for 4 years. The combo of funeral and your changed behavior has scared him. There IS a chance of recovery here. It can happen. Excellent advice above. The plan is up to you. How much can you take? Can you believe him? Maybe plan b...maybe start to date...I do not know him, that makes a difference. Oh..follow your head...take your heart into consideration...think of the kids and don't forget the behavior of the past 4 years. All things are possible in love, but how do you know he is for real?

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w2w,

A big part of this will be sorting out your emotions.

How did you feel when your H was all weepy and apoligetic? Sorry for him like you would be sorry for a wounded animal? or not really any deep feelings?

Angry that he has messed up your plans now that you finally made them?

Or did your heart still break for him? I know when my H finally got it and broke down, I hurt for him as much as I hurt for me. That was how i knew it was worth trying again.

I don't pretend to know God's mind, but serch your feelings for God's hand is this, too. If your H is trying to manipulate you, it will come out. You will feel it. Or maybe your H has finally looked in the mirror and really seen the person looking back for the first time in a long time.

Be strong! Don't settle for crumbs! I will keep you in my prayers.

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i'm curious, all of us who are not fws's would be a bs correct? did we not all tolerate disprespect? are most of us not in the process of marriage building? didn't we all pretty much start out reconciling w/our ws's?

No, I did not tolerate chronic disrespect . Did you?

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W2W,

I hope things get better for you soon.

I just want to point out your H’s adultery is way into the Long Term Affair (LTA) zone. These are horses of a different color. Shoot, they are a different species altogether.

This is not a new A. It is an old A that never ended. It just went further underground when you found out. Further, IMO, your H has been emotionally abusive toward you for the entire time since your first D-Day.

MB methods do not apply in a straightforward manner to LTAs, nor to abusive situations. It’s the same thing as trying to naively apply MB when there are addictions or serious mental issues the WS must first deal with. LTAs have to be dealt with differently. For one thing, the underlying attachment is so strong withdrawal can go on for the rest of the WS’ life. In any case, attachment lays buried in the ashes like a hot ember and may re-ignite years and years later if strong measures are not taken.

Cut to the chase here. You need to talk to the MB counseling center. The Harleys will help you optimize all this planning and scheming. You may simply be told to run for your life. Or, you may be given a high probability of success plan. In either case, they can help make it a lot less stressful on you in both the short and the long runs.

LTAs are not discussed much in any book or on the main MB site. To me it’s like the STD vs SF EN disconnect Lemonman often points out. It’s a gross omission in the books and on this site. So, you need to talk to one of the Harleys to get the best advice in your peculiar, but not unique, situation.

Oh, one last thing - your H sleeping in your DS5 bedroom for years now is a big read flag IMO. There is something unhealthy about that, far and above the problems in your M. I do not believe any of the reasons he gives you for it. And even if any were true he is still creating future issues for your son.

With prayers,


"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan

"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky

WS: They are who they are.

When an eel lunges out
And it bites off your snout
Thats a moray ~DS
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another name for having sex outside of marriage could be called "chronic disrespect" (answer to question above)

www2 none of us have any business telling you to stay or go, all we can do is give you advice that worked for each of us. you must not let those who think they know best for you make your mind up for you. as i and many have said, you know your heart. if you are a woman of faith, which i assume you are due to your words about teaching sunday school, you more than likely know how many times god says we are to forgive.... 70x7. does not mean we need to be a doormat, but in the end people of faith forgive. whether or not you forward w/or without h will be determined by your willingness to forgive and enforce the rules this time and your h's ability to follow through this time. as you already know, in the end, gods plans will prevail, not ours.

please take care of yourself. take time to think things through. as many have said nothing needs to be solved overnite....this has taken 4 yrs to accumulate, it's not going to be settled overnite. sending hugs and love to your heart

i agree, calling dr harley would be in both your best interests, if he can't help you he will point you elsewhere.

best wishes again.

Last edited by 2334pem; 01/16/06 05:52 PM.

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What's that song, Maggie...

My guess is that is how your WH is feeling. He's past being enthralled by OW and just wants it done. You have the opportunity to tell him -- fresh start -- I'm not waiting one more second -- spend 15 hours per week alone with me making sure both of us are happy together -- and let the past, the sordid rotting past, fade.

I gave an ultimatum, and your thread showed me what would have happened had I not. The advantage that the prolonged affair has is that your H may well no longer have the enchanted view of his lover; mine still may have. She comforted me... yeah, because I was upset that he broke my arm. How sick is that? It took four years for me to get over hysteria and come up with a concrete condition for living together. I can't say it's gold, but it sure is better than going amateur PI.

Address the disregard that is in your face. Neglect.

Cherished

Last edited by Cherished; 01/16/06 07:00 PM.
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