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Originally Posted by Aphelion
Do you guys know any teenagers?

I certainly wasn't referring to teenagers in "puppy love" when describing how emotionally healthy, stable, single adults normally meet and bond to their future spouse. You are right--affairees often behave with the same irrationalty, lack of discernment, and foolish beliefs that are in play when some teenie falls head over heels for his/her teacher.

The difference is that the teenager has far less ability to indulge and solidify these "feelings" and probably isn't hurting anyone (except themselves) since they are NOT MARRIED.

The same mindset is there, but not the same potential in most cases for devastation.


xWW:
Secret LTA w/ thrice married OM at her workplace; EA/PA starts ~ 2005-6
Files & completes D - 2007, OM/OMW#3 D - 2007, Affairage - immediately thereafter
Disappears in 2006 w/o even a goodbye to anyone, Never a paragraph of real truth ever spoken
Me/xBH:
M "for life", Suspicions (denied) & desperate Plan A latter-half '06
1st D-day 1/07, full truth D-day 7/08 (all via 3rd parties)
NC w/ xWW 8/08-date, better off w/o unrepentant vileness, betrayal, & rampant deceit in my life anymore
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Originally Posted by Aphelion
"I had to laugh at your mention of "church-members" because my WW dragged her (completely disinterested & utterly non-spiritual) OM & kids with her to church while we were separated. Perhaps she was trying to buy penance and assuage her guilt by tithing, acting holy, and pretending to be this happy, wholesome blended family. I heard later that she bawled her eyes out the entire service every week and quit going permanently after a few months, never to return to "the spiritual roots" she claimed to me she was trying to recapture without me. Kinda lends new credence to the old adage about "feeling as uncomfortable as a wh0re in church", huh?"

My wife did a similar thing during her VLTA. She took RCIA classes and converted even. All while running her adultery at normal tilt.

Pep, I remember you writing your H did somewhat the same thing.

When I asked her why she would do such a thing she said something to the effect it all felt good in different ways and maybe she was searching. Note the maybe. She used that word. Like she couldn’t know for herself.

One must be, has to be pretty far along the road to perdition to think like that, to live for a decade like that. It mocks everything good.

Interestin phnomena, this sudden interest in religion or spirituality. During her affairs, my wife began meeting witha bunch of her girlfriends each Saturday for what she called her "spititual group". It was laughable as it was merely a social event with lots of gossiping and partying.
My Xw is the world's bigggest hypocrite. On his deathbed, my dad( really street and book smart) took me aside and told me " I havc never met a more insicere person than your wife." (He then added,"she's homely, too.")

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Originally Posted by rprynne
I would not look at your list as describing two different WW's, but more like the same individual, at different stages. The first list, the WW after the initial foray into infidelity. The second list, the same WW after a period of time. I also think there are characteristics of WW's that are unique to stages that would come before and after what you have listed.

Assuming we are ignoring the pure sociopaths that are out there, I sometimes think it is better to define the WW in terms of "where" they are in their A. As an example, to me, your second list describes the WW at the peak of their fantasy.

I suppose one could theorize that WW's go through many stages and some stages are harder for the BH to deal with than others. In some stages the WW is "run of the mill" where in others, they are not.

Sadly bumping this thread. frown

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Originally Posted by rprynne
I think that point gets missed. D-day doesn't make a WW want a recovered M.

What motivation makes a WW want to recover?
Getting caught again?
Plan B?
Getting a slice of reality pie?
Consequences?

... just chewing the cud here.... runimating if you will.

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I haven't read this entire thread, but I can at least attempt to answer Pepperband's questions. Of course, I can only answer them for myself. Other FWW's may have very different answers.

1. Getting caught (again): Didn't pertain to my situation. My H never "caught" me, since I confessed everything on my own. I never was a good liar, so I didn't even attempt it.

2. Plan B: We never went there, so I don't know. But I certainly see how it could work if there were still some honest feelings there. One night during the thick of my A, my H decided not to come home from work. He called and left a message telling me he wouldn't be home for the weekend, didn't even tell me where he was going or when he would be back, wouldn't answer his cell phone. It freaked me out. I thought he might not ever come back. Even that little bit of being cut off scared me.

3. Slice of reality pie: This was the big one for me. At first, the life I imagined with OM was pure fantasy and fun, but once I really started thinking about it realistically, the grass wasn't looking all that greener on the other side. I started realizing what I would have to give up to be with OM (my kids, my family, my entire life) and it just didn't seem worth it anymore. Also, there was the loss of that life I had planned with my H for so many years. That hit me hard - thinking about all of the things we'd talked about doing, places we wanted to go, dreams we shared - and realizing that none of it would happen if I left. It made me terribly sad. I think for me, that reality pie really was the thing that ultimately ended my A. When it came right down to it, OM just wasn't worth the sacrifice.

Consequences: Not sure what sort you're asking about. For me, most of my consequences were pretty much self-induced. I think my biggest consequence was horrible, terrible guilt. That one certainly got me.


Me: BS/FWW: 48
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Originally Posted by Pepperband
Originally Posted by rprynne
I think that point gets missed. D-day doesn't make a WW want a recovered M.

What motivation makes a WW want to recover?
Getting caught again?
Plan B?
Getting a slice of reality pie?
Consequences?

... just chewing the cud here.... runimating if you will.


I'd say the things that make WW want to recover:

1. Relationship with OP dropping into Conflict from Intimacy. If this doesn't happen, you're [[censored]]. To me, that's the mail purpose of the "stick" part of Plan A: to encourage that loss of intimacy between affair partners. And then there's the carrot part:


2. Relationship with BS rising from Withdrawal to Conflict, or from Conflict to Intimacy. If BS can get to a similar level as OP -- whatever that is -- then there's a good chance BS can "win" in the WS's mind (history together, proximity, children, home, financial stability... whatever, there are all kinds of things that can help a BS win a WS back, and that gives a BS the upper-hand and home-field-advantage versus many OPs.) To me, that's the point of the "carrot" part of Plan A: this spouse was in love at one time, and may yet be again if the Love Bank balance continues to rise.

I dunno, does a D-day make a wayward more wayward? I mean, it's usually this tremendously negative thing filled with Love Busters on both sides...


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Interesting, writer. Are you saying that without the attendant losses you mention, you would have actually preferred the OM to your husband? Did you find him more desirable?
How does your H feel about it?

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Originally Posted by writer1
When it came right down to it, OM just wasn't worth the sacrifice.


Beautiful summary for the reason for Plan A and Plan B: to help the wayward see how much the marriage is worth, and how much the wayward stands to lose. People don't typically stop affairs out of altruism. They stop them out of fear, and then later apply altruistic reasoning to the decision.

Thank you for being so honest, writer1!


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Zelmo: Please read #3 again. It wasn't just the loss of children, family, friends, etc. that brought me back. It was also the loss of the life I had planned with my H. What really brought me back was the fact that I simply couldn't imagine a future that did not include my H, and I could imagine one without the OM. I had 14 years of history with my H, and I wasn't willing to give any of that up in the end.


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Yeah, I understand. But, it seems so unromantic, like a cost/benefit analysis.
I think this has always been a problem for me with some of the MB concepts. They just seem so calculated.
What I am trying to say is wouldn't a BS want to be loved/desired for his or her core self, rather that an assesment of strengths vs weaknesses?
Maybe I am not understanding this, writer. But, your decison seemed to rest on looking at things other than your H's intrinsic value. I understand the allusion to the life with your husband.Maybe that includes things like his warmth, or sense of humor, or kindness etc.
But, the way you state it, it could also mean things like his earning potential, loss of certain worldly possessions, or access to the country club, etc.
I would not want my wife back if these were the reasons for her return. I'd feel like she did not really love me and her decision was based on factors other than who I am as a person.

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Originally Posted by Pepperband
Originally Posted by rprynne
I would not look at your list as describing two different WW's, but more like the same individual, at different stages. The first list, the WW after the initial foray into infidelity. The second list, the same WW after a period of time. I also think there are characteristics of WW's that are unique to stages that would come before and after what you have listed.

Assuming we are ignoring the pure sociopaths that are out there, I sometimes think it is better to define the WW in terms of "where" they are in their A. As an example, to me, your second list describes the WW at the peak of their fantasy.

I suppose one could theorize that WW's go through many stages and some stages are harder for the BH to deal with than others. In some stages the WW is "run of the mill" where in others, they are not.

Sadly bumping this thread. frown
I find it particularly poignant that rprynne was describing, without knowing it, his own WW.

He had such great insight. He changed my thoughts on the "two types of WW" that Pep originally proposed. Many of us here, including FWWs, started off agreeing that there were two types. The first had a conscience and felt badly about what she was doing. With intervention, it was suggested, a BH had some chance of ending the affair and recovering his marriage. The second type was entirely free of conscience and chose adultery as a lifestyle. She might or might not wish to leave her H, but would certainly continue in her affair(s) lifestyle for as long as she could get away with it. The implication was that the BH of this type had lost before he even knew he was fighting a battle.

rprynne argued that there were not two types; that most WW progressed from having a conscience to having none the longer her affair(s) continued. The implication remained that, after a long affair (or series of affairs, or false recoveries) the BH would have little chance of ending the affair(s) and recovering his marriage.

These accute observations came out of the mouth of the babe who did not know the real truth of which he spoke. That is heartbreaking.


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Zelmo: If you're thinking I came back for the money, think again. We are not well-off by any means. In fact, it's pretty darn likely that a bankruptcy looms in our future. Country club? You've got to be kidding me. We live in a tiny 3-bedroom home in a neighborhood that barely passes for marginal. My H is currently in customer service and going back to school to become a teacher. Not great paying professions, I'm afraid.

I was indeed talking about his intrinsic values. My H is funny, compassionate, caring, and sensitive. He loves kids and always manages to maintain a positive outlook on life, even when things look very grim. He makes me laugh and he cries whenever we watch a sad movie. He gets up every morning at 4:30 to drive 50 miles to a job I know he doesn't like, just to support his family.

Did I do a cost/benefit analysis? You bet I did. OM left his family (wife and 2 daughters) 3 weeks after our A began and never looked back. All he ever talked about was how he didn't feel guilty or bad about what we were doing because we were soul mates and it was meant to be and blah, blah, blah. He cared far more about his own happiness and fulfillment than he did anything else. My H, on the other hand, didn't walk away, even when it would have been easy for him to do so, even when I told him that I didn't want to be with him anymore. He spent 6 mos. loving me, even when I didn't deserve it, executing a pretty darn effective Plan A with remarkably few LB's. He listened to what I was saying about all of my EN's that weren't being met in our M (and there were a lot, mostly tied to his earlier 10-year EA with his ex-girlfriend) and he made a lot of changes in himself. He did everything he could to save our M and let me know how much me and our family meant to him. I compared the two, and it wasn't difficult to figure out who was the better man.

Ultimately, I stayed because I loved my H. I never stopped loving him, the entire time I was involved in my A. It was easy to see that once the fog started to clear.


Me: BS/FWW: 48
BS/WH: 50
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OC: 10
BH and I are raising my OC together.
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I think waywards stay, or come back, ultimately because they choose to. I think the betrayed can have a profound effect upon that choice. That is why I think MB is effective. The techniques affect the choices that waywards will make.


What we think or what we know or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence. The only consequence is what we do. ~ John Ruskin
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Glad to hear you love your H , writer, and that it was that that motivated you to come back. Hard to understand the oft presented wayward assertion that the Ws never stopped loving the BS, though. Of course, that is not susceptible to verification form the outside, and everyone's definition of what constitutes love differs.
I think there are differnet types of WSs. I think of the personality disordered ones as a different breed, not really susceptible to the MB methods. These folks leave you with nary a second thought. You are disposable, a source of supply. Once the jig is up with them, and they know you are on to them, you are done. Kids, family, debts, responsibilities-they just walk away.

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writer- you probably answered this somewhere else but I forget. Forgive me if it's too personal: Whose name is on the OC's birth certificate, and if it's the OM's, do your other children know about that?


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Zelmo: I think there probably are different types of waywards, just like there are many different types of people. And I know, it's hard to accept that a wayward never stopped loving their BS. For me, it was true. I even told the OM, literally at the very start of our A, that I still loved my H. A's do weird things to your head, to say the least, and after the start of my A, I started to believe that I was in love with the OM too. I thought I loved them both. It didn't occur to me that my feelings for the OM were anything but love and that I had never even considered the fact that I might be in love with him before we slept together. We were friends, but after the A started, I thought I was in love with him. I realize now that it wasn't love.

imanotherone: My H's name is on the birth certificate. My kids do know about the OM. They know he is the biological father. He isn't a part of our OC's life and has never even seen her. We intend to tell her the truth when she is old enough to understand and let her decide for herself if she wants to meet her biological father when she's an adult.


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Slice of reality pie lead to my confession:

New Year's Eve at a small party, just after the Big Ben Chimes, when I couldn't bring myself to kiss my H Happy NY, I suddenly really realised how wrong I was. That is when the real guilt hit in and I started thinking "He doesn't deserve this" I felt really sad about what I had put him through. (up until this point in the party I had been nipping off to the loo to text OM frequently). And he looked so so hurt when I didn't make a move to give him a kiss like the other couples were. I felt sick.

I had already been feeling guilty about neglecting my kids to spend time with OM. And incredibly stressed about leading a double life.


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writer- thanks for sharing. It's good to know you guys don't have any "big secret" that the kids will all discover one day by rooting around in the attic. Conflict avoider types would have probably said "oh, the kids don't need to know." And as you know, kids always seem to figure it out anyway....


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Man, writer. I don't know if even an A could make me that far gone. Let me run this through my feeble brain: I am cheating on my wife, something I know with certainty will haunt her and cause her pain forever. But, I love her.
Yeah, something would definitely have to be messing with my mind to sell myself that one.
In reality, I think I would feel more secure if my cheating wife told me she hated my guts , so she cheated. I could understand that better.

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Let me give you a little background. For 10 years (starting 1-week after our wedding) my H was involved in an on-again, off-again EA with his ex-girlfriend. They were together for 3 years and he wanted to marry her, but he was young and she came from an abusive family, so she left him for someone 10 years older than her who could support her and get her away from her family. After going through many false recoveries and much lying, my H finally decided to end the EA. However, we didn't really deal with the A, we just sort of swept it under the rug and tried to go on. It didn't work. My A began 3 years after the end of my H's EA. I loved him, but I wasn't at all sure that he loved me, not in the way I wanted him to. I wasn't sure he ever could. I felt very much like #2 in his heart. He said he loved me, but I was living everyday with the fact that he spent 10 years of our M still in love with someone else. That hurt, more than anyone could ever imagine. In many ways, my M felt like a mirage, since he married me knowing he still had feelings for someone else.

At the time I had my A, my H and I were still suffering from a great deal of the poison from his long-term EA, which we had never dealt with. We were fighting all the time. We weren't meeting each other's EN's at all. He was still suffering from a lot of guilt from his EA. He had convinced himself that he just couldn't make me happy and was encouraging me to join an online dating service and find someone who could. I thought he was saying these things because he didn't really care about me, not because he felt guilty and inadequate. I still loved my H, but I was lonely and tired of feeling like #2. There was so much miscommunication and missed opportunities.

After my A began, I expected my H to just walk away. I thought that's what he wanted. I thought he wanted out. Instead, he shocked me completely by staying and fighting for our M. When I saw how hard he fought, I finally started to believe that he really did love me, the way I had always wanted him to.


Me: BS/FWW: 48
BS/WH: 50
DS: 30, 27, 25
DD: 28
OC: 10
BH and I are raising my OC together.
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