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Originally Posted by MaiMai
Make sure you spy very well.

I'd bet anything she contacts him within 24 hours.

As much as I wish this wasn't the case, this wouldn't surprise me. I will give her some time today to rest, since the withdrawal has probably took all the energy she has, but I will be checking up on her.

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
AH, I would download flexispy on her phone and watch what she does. I suspect she just went further underground. You can get it here: flexispy.com. There is a cheaper version that is $149. I would watch her like a hawk, she is manipulative and untrustworthy.


Well, unfortunately, I don't have that kind of money right now to purchase that. If she has gone further underground, as you say, one of two things will happen. Either she is actually able to hide it from me well enough so that I never find out (highly unlikely), or more likely, she will slip up somewhere and once I find out, I'm gone. As was mentioned a little earlier in this thread, the only thing that I can actually control is whether I stay or leave, and that's in the hands of WW.

Edit to all the new posts: To add on to the her going underground posts, my job is as a computer programmer, so I have my own ways to find out what is going on, and she knows that if I find anything (she doesn't know the extent of what I can dig up), the marriage is over.

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Originally Posted by AnotherHopeful
It's not so much that I feel guilty specifically at looking at her privacy, but guilt in general at doing something that would, under normal circumstances, be wrong.

If you were looking at private messages from a woman you weren't married to, then, yes, under normal circumstances that would be wrong.

But under normal circumstances, looking at private messages from a woman you ARE married to is NOT wrong. And being married is perfectly normal.

Did somebody teach you that it was wrong for a man to find out what his wife is doing?


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

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Originally Posted by GoingUphill
You are reluctantly willing to participate in her polyandrous union. It doesn't matter that she isn't currently f'ing him; she is emotionally involved.

Over time, reluctant willingness, also known as "Resistance to What Is", creates a lot of disharmony in the person who refuses to choose one way or the other. You can either choose to be joyful as a man whose wife has a boyfriend, or you can choose to end the situation even if that means you file for divorce.

I've seen this situation before. A man I worked with had a wife who had a boyfriend. The wife and her boyfriend were able to avoid being physical due to all the blocks the three of them put in place. That didn't make sense to me. Put in blocks? Why not simply choose to NOT go there. Why not just end the whole boyfriend thing? After three years, she got pregnant by the husband. After five years, the wife and boyfriend got tired of the blocks. She would "make" the husband stay out in the living room keeping the toddler entertained while she and the boyfriend went to the bedroom to screw.

We co-workers never could get this man, the husband, to remove his balls from her purse. I changed jobs but a few years later I heard that he had killed himself in front of their son.

I think you need individual counseling and a never-ending supply of condoms so that you can do your best to prevent bringing a child into this situation. I feel very badly for you. I think you chose her as a wife and married her knowing that she had f'd your "best friend" because of some issues you seriously need to deal with.

Please get her out of your life. Take a stand for yourself. Find a good woman and make a great family for yourself.

I know this is Marriage Builders so maybe my post is wrong. I hope you get a chance to read this before mods delete it.

I wish you well.

I don't know why anyone would want your post deleted. I do know that your post posits only two options, and Marriage Builders poses a third option: motivate your spouse to follow the Marriage Builders program. Doing that, a woman can learn to become a good wife, a husband can learn to become a good husband. This is not something people are born with: being a good spouse is learned behavior.

I would encourage anyone with a bad marriage to consider giving it their all with the full Marriage Builders program first before leaving. (And I would then encourage anyone with an unfaithful spouse who has given it their all not to feel any shame afterward if leaving is necessary.)


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

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Originally Posted by markos
I would encourage anyone with a bad marriage to consider giving it their all with the full Marriage Builders program first before leaving. (And I would then encourage anyone with an unfaithful spouse who has given it their all not to feel any shame afterward if leaving is necessary.)

That's what I'm trying to do at this time. I know that it will be a long and painful process, but I'm not ready to give up yet. I came here for advice on enforcing NC, and so far, it seems to be working. As I said before, I will have my eyes on what she's doing, and if there's any indication to me that the NC has been broken, the marriage will be as well.

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Edit to all the new posts: To add on to the her going underground posts, my job is as a computer programmer, so I have my own ways to find out what is going on, and she knows that if I find anything (she doesn't know the extent of what I can dig up), the marriage is over.
I would also bet real $$ she will take this underground. The phone call that she made to OM was, I'm sure, something along the lines of "AnotherHopeful found a website and is insisting on NC, and we need to stop talking for now until we figure something else out."

Do you have access to the phone bill? Does it detail who text messages go to? Also I would be on the lookout in her car/purse for a hidden 2nd cell phone. I am assuming you have since you are a computer guy, but did you install a keylogger on the computer?

I have been thinking about your timeline and sitch and wanted to ask you ~ Are you open to the possibility that this has been an ongoing PA for that few years? Has your W taken trips back to the state where you used to (and OM) live? Do you have access to your WW's email acct? Can you go back and investigate old emails?


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Have you given any thought to the almost certainty that they have been having sex again?

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Edit to all the new posts: To add on to the her going underground posts, my job is as a computer programmer, so I have my own ways to find out what is going on, and she knows that if I find anything (she doesn't know the extent of what I can dig up), the marriage is over.

You underestimate the creativity of a wayward, sir. And not once in your posts did you mention that you told her the M was over if you find anything. Did you actually tell her this?

No matter. Here's what she heard: "WS, I'm going to give you carte blanche to carry on this relationship with OM as long as I don't know about it. So I'm going to go outside, stick my fingers in my ears and sing la-la-la-la-la while you pretend to call him and cut it off.

Then I'm going to come back into the house and believe you when you say you did. But darnit, you'd better not let me catch you at it again, or...or...I'll do something! I don't know what, but I'll do something!"

Nooo


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Originally Posted by SusieQ
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Edit to all the new posts: To add on to the her going underground posts, my job is as a computer programmer, so I have my own ways to find out what is going on, and she knows that if I find anything (she doesn't know the extent of what I can dig up), the marriage is over.
I would also bet real $$ she will take this underground. The phone call that she made to OM was, I'm sure, something along the lines of "AnotherHopeful found a website and is insisting on NC, and we need to stop talking for now until we figure something else out."

Do you have access to the phone bill? Does it detail who text messages go to? Also I would be on the lookout in her car/purse for a hidden 2nd cell phone. I am assuming you have since you are a computer guy, but did you install a keylogger on the computer?

I have been thinking about your timeline and sitch and wanted to ask you ~ Are you open to the possibility that this has been an ongoing PA for that few years? Has your W taken trips back to the state where you used to (and OM) live? Do you have access to your WW's email acct? Can you go back and investigate old emails?

I do have access to the phone bill, and I can see her call history, but as of right now, I have no access to her text messages. She has given me her phone a few times when we would have conversations about this and told me that there was nothing there for me to worry about. I know that there is the possibility (probability?) that she is deleting messages, but this is all that I have to go off of right now.
I have considered putting a keylogger on her computer, but so far I have been able to keep tabs on her fairly well without it by looking at IM logs and other binary info on her computer. She has a laptop and I have a desktop at home, and I have seen her log in on my desktop, so if something were to be going on, I would probably end up needing two keyloggers. I will definitely consider it.
I have thought about the possibility that this could have been a PA for the whole time, but I don't think that's the case in this situation. We live more than 10 hours drive away from my old hometown and I have had our one vehicle most of the time, as I drop her off at work before I go to school. Now, unless OM moved to where we live or has enough money that I don't know about that she is flying back to my hometown during the 8-10 hours per weekday that I'm in school, then I highly doubt that is the case.
I have access to both of her e-mail accounts that I am aware of, as well as Myspace and Facebook.

Originally Posted by maritalbliss
Quote
Edit to all the new posts: To add on to the her going underground posts, my job is as a computer programmer, so I have my own ways to find out what is going on, and she knows that if I find anything (she doesn't know the extent of what I can dig up), the marriage is over.

You underestimate the creativity of a wayward, sir. And not once in your posts did you mention that you told her the M was over if you find anything. Did you actually tell her this?

No matter. Here's what she heard: "WS, I'm going to give you carte blanche to carry on this relationship with OM as long as I don't know about it. So I'm going to go outside, stick my fingers in my ears and sing la-la-la-la-la while you pretend to call him and cut it off.

Then I'm going to come back into the house and believe you when you say you did. But darnit, you'd better not let me catch you at it again, or...or...I'll do something! I don't know what, but I'll do something!"

Nooo

The truth is, no matter what I say to her, it comes down to her choice whether she decides to keep this A going. As I said before, I have two choices: stay or leave. Yes, I am probably underestimating the creativity of a wayward. I also believe that the wayward is underestimating me.

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Originally Posted by AnotherHopeful
I also believe that the wayward is underestimating me.

Why? You married her AFTER she cheated on you with your best friend.

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Originally Posted by MaiMai
Originally Posted by AnotherHopeful
I also believe that the wayward is underestimating me.

Why? You married her AFTER she cheated on you with your best friend.

Yes, I did, and my mistake there was not doing anything to A-proof the relationship before we got married 2 years later. I don't plan on making that mistake again.

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What type of cell phone does she have? Not having keyloggers and flexispy at this point would be like putting blinders on. I am not sure why you wouldn't move forward with those safeguards at this point?????

OK, so has she taken any overnight trips in the last two years or not?


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Originally Posted by SusieQ
What type of cell phone does she have? Not having keyloggers and flexispy at this point would be like putting blinders on. I am not sure why you wouldn't move forward with those safeguards at this point?????

At this point, I am definitely considering it. The reason I haven't gotten flexispy is because I don't have the money right now. I am going to start looking at keyloggers today.

Originally Posted by SusieQ
OK, so has she taken any overnight trips in the last two years or not?

Not to my knowledge. If she did, it wasn't with any of her or my money...not to mention my schedule was constantly changing, so I don't think that she could without me knowing about it.

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I do have access to the phone bill, and I can see her call history, but as of right now, I have no access to her text messages. She has given me her phone a few times when we would have conversations about this and told me that there was nothing there for me to worry about. I know that there is the possibility (probability?) that she is deleting messages, but this is all that I have to go off of right now.
Creative waywards delete things. And give their 'cleaned-up' phones to their suspicious spouse to alleviate suspicion.
Have you asked to switch phones with you for periods of time when she least expects it?

Quote
I have considered putting a keylogger on her computer, but so far I have been able to keep tabs on her fairly well without it by looking at IM logs and other binary info on her computer. She has a laptop and I have a desktop at home, and I have seen her log in on my desktop, so if something were to be going on, I would probably end up needing two keyloggers. I will definitely consider it.
She's probably logging on to yours for everyday, non-A things to lull you into thinking she's not up to anything. I doubt that you need more than one keylogger.

Quote
I have thought about the possibility that this could have been a PA for the whole time, but I don't think that's the case in this situation. We live more than 10 hours drive away from my old hometown and I have had our one vehicle most of the time, as I drop her off at work before I go to school. Now, unless OM moved to where we live or has enough money that I don't know about that she is flying back to my hometown during the 8-10 hours per weekday that I'm in school, then I highly doubt that is the case.
Airtime from him to her is a few short hours. They could be spending entire days in a hotel room, he flies out at 4 and she's home from 'work' shortly after.

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I have access to both of her e-mail accounts that I am aware of, as well as Myspace and Facebook.
She can have a silent friend on FB. She can have a number of email accounts. A keylogger will expose this.

Quote
The truth is, no matter what I say to her, it comes down to her choice whether she decides to keep this A going. As I said before, I have two choices: stay or leave. Yes, I am probably underestimating the creativity of a wayward. I also believe that the wayward is underestimating me.
You have a third choice: bust up the A. It sounds to me like you are in Plan Hope right now.


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Originally Posted by maritalbliss
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I do have access to the phone bill, and I can see her call history, but as of right now, I have no access to her text messages. She has given me her phone a few times when we would have conversations about this and told me that there was nothing there for me to worry about. I know that there is the possibility (probability?) that she is deleting messages, but this is all that I have to go off of right now.
Creative waywards delete things. And give their 'cleaned-up' phones to their suspicious spouse to alleviate suspicion.
Have you asked to switch phones with you for periods of time when she least expects it?

That's actually a really good idea. I'll keep that in mind in the future.

Originally Posted by maritalbliss
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I have considered putting a keylogger on her computer, but so far I have been able to keep tabs on her fairly well without it by looking at IM logs and other binary info on her computer. She has a laptop and I have a desktop at home, and I have seen her log in on my desktop, so if something were to be going on, I would probably end up needing two keyloggers. I will definitely consider it.
She's probably logging on to yours for everyday, non-A things to lull you into thinking she's not up to anything. I doubt that you need more than one keylogger.

It's really hard to say right now, because I know that she uses both computers, and if she was really clever, she would talk to him on my desktop since she would think that I wouldn't spy on my own computer.

Originally Posted by maritalbliss
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I have thought about the possibility that this could have been a PA for the whole time, but I don't think that's the case in this situation. We live more than 10 hours drive away from my old hometown and I have had our one vehicle most of the time, as I drop her off at work before I go to school. Now, unless OM moved to where we live or has enough money that I don't know about that she is flying back to my hometown during the 8-10 hours per weekday that I'm in school, then I highly doubt that is the case.
Airtime from him to her is a few short hours. They could be spending entire days in a hotel room, he flies out at 4 and she's home from 'work' shortly after.

It's about a two hour flight one-way, so that would take up 4 hours just in travel time alone. More importantly, it's a good $200-$300 per trip, and her pay stubs do reflect how much time she has worked, so there's proof that she was working the entire time.

Originally Posted by maritalbliss
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I have access to both of her e-mail accounts that I am aware of, as well as Myspace and Facebook.
She can have a silent friend on FB. She can have a number of email accounts. A keylogger will expose this.

I know that, if she still wants to keep up the A, she will be going through some extra measures to keep me from finding out, so I am going to start using a keylogger on her computer, if not both the laptop and the desktop.

Originally Posted by maritalbliss
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The truth is, no matter what I say to her, it comes down to her choice whether she decides to keep this A going. As I said before, I have two choices: stay or leave. Yes, I am probably underestimating the creativity of a wayward. I also believe that the wayward is underestimating me.
You have a third choice: bust up the A. It sounds to me like you are in Plan Hope right now.


If this EA is as serious as it seems, then even if I were to "bust up the A", she would still continue to cover it up, and as I said before, take extra precautions to cover it up. At this point, I think it's best that I use the keylogger and continue to monitor her activity. If she slips up, then it's over.

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AH, I would look for a secret email acct and also go through old credit card bills. I hope that I am wrong but I just have a bad feeling you don't know the whole story.

Did you have periods of time when you were away for work, overnight or longer? Anyway, OM could have been coming to visit her or they could have met halfway, etc.

Get the keylogger on both computers yesterday.


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There are many things to do if you discover that they are still in contact besides saying it is over. That is what MB is all about. Have you exposed her adultery to her family? How bout his? Aren't you her to find out how to save your M? As long as you continue to keep her secrets she will suffer no consequences.
Put the keylogger on, put a VAR in her car. Find out all you can about the extent of the contact and then blow it out of the water.

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Originally Posted by AnotherHopeful
It's about a two hour flight one-way, so that would take up 4 hours just in travel time alone. More importantly, it's a good $200-$300 per trip, and her pay stubs do reflect how much time she has worked, so there's proof that she was working the entire time.

Who says she's the one flying or taking overnight trips? OM could easily be a frequent visitor and they could meet up for her lunch break.

Quote
If this EA is as serious as it seems, then even if I were to "bust up the A", she would still continue to cover it up, and as I said before, take extra precautions to cover it up. At this point, I think it's best that I use the keylogger and continue to monitor her activity. If she slips up, then it's over.
Keep in mind that for a woman, the emotional aspects ARE the affair - and thsi goes for the betrayed as well as the waywards. BH's make the mistake that as long as it isn't physical, there's nothing to be worried about when it's really the emotional aspects of the affair that pull her away. By the time it goes physical, she's already checked out.

No marriage can recover as long as the affair is active. It's simply not possible - even if she doesn't "slip up" and you don't find out. The affair is still active even if it is "just" an EA. You cannot live your whole life waiting for her to slip up. Your choices are (1) break up the affair or (2) not. If not, you WILL divorce - no ifs ands or buts - it's just a matter of time. Only when you break up the affair can you even begin to consider steps toward marital recovery.

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AH, I'm sensing a lot of reluctance on your part to do what you've been advised to do in order to end the A. We've explained how a long-distance A can be accomplished, how your WW can go underground, advised you to expose the A, implement spying tools, and you either ignore the comment or explain why it wouldn't work. Only when the posts are overwhelmingly in favor of a keylogger do you decide it's a good idea, and then you switch up and say you'll put it on your own computer. crazy

Note: I get that you're trying to think outside of the box, but consider: Your WW isn't going to do anything incriminating on her computer-tech/h's computer. She's going to do it on her own.

I am seeing a lot of "if x happens, then it's over."

What do you really want to do?


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Originally Posted by SusieQ
AH, I would look for a secret email acct and also go through old credit card bills. I hope that I am wrong but I just have a bad feeling you don't know the whole story.

Did you have periods of time when you were away for work, overnight or longer? Anyway, OM could have been coming to visit her or they could have met halfway, etc.

Get the keylogger on both computers yesterday.

I have looked at her internet history, and there are no indications that she had a secret e-mail address, and there were also no indications that she cleared her history (which is the only way she knows how to get rid of the history). The only times that we were away from each other overnight were when she would visit her family, and the only time that I wasn't there was when a member of her extended family passed away. If she had lied to me, then her family lied to me as well (mother, father, grandmother, and 4 siblings). The other time was when I went to a conference for a few days. The keyloggers are going on as soon as I find a good one.

Originally Posted by saynomore
There are many things to do if you discover that they are still in contact besides saying it is over. That is what MB is all about. Have you exposed her adultery to her family? How bout his? Aren't you her to find out how to save your M? As long as you continue to keep her secrets she will suffer no consequences.
Put the keylogger on, put a VAR in her car. Find out all you can about the extent of the contact and then blow it out of the water.

God's Blessings,

Say

I am here to save our marriage, and although the advice here has been very helpful, I strongly think that exposing this to her family will be more detrimental to the cause than helpful, and I'm fairly sure that it will result in D, regardless of whether she is still involved in the A or honestly trying to help save the marriage. It is the only thing that I'm against and would like to avoid at all costs. Besides, she has already gotten a taste of the consequences, as when it first happened, I told my family and WW had to deal with my mother. As far as OM's family is concerned, I've known them fairly well when he and I were friends, and I'm fairly sure that they wouldn't care, and even if they did, he wouldn't care what they think. I'm going to be going with the keylogger, and if there's really something going on, it won't take long for me to discover it, and then I am going to blow it all out of the water.

Originally Posted by Tabby1
Originally Posted by AnotherHopeful
It's about a two hour flight one-way, so that would take up 4 hours just in travel time alone. More importantly, it's a good $200-$300 per trip, and her pay stubs do reflect how much time she has worked, so there's proof that she was working the entire time.

Who says she's the one flying or taking overnight trips? OM could easily be a frequent visitor and they could meet up for her lunch break.

That could be true, but I doubt that. The one time that I know he came to visit was on a bus and I found out through an IM log. The IM log suggested that it wasn't a common occurence, and it's much less likely that he would be able to afford constant trips here than WW being able to afford constant trips there.

Originally Posted by Tabby1
Quote
If this EA is as serious as it seems, then even if I were to "bust up the A", she would still continue to cover it up, and as I said before, take extra precautions to cover it up. At this point, I think it's best that I use the keylogger and continue to monitor her activity. If she slips up, then it's over.

Keep in mind that for a woman, the emotional aspects ARE the affair - and thsi goes for the betrayed as well as the waywards. BH's make the mistake that as long as it isn't physical, there's nothing to be worried about when it's really the emotional aspects of the affair that pull her away. By the time it goes physical, she's already checked out.

No marriage can recover as long as the affair is active. It's simply not possible - even if she doesn't "slip up" and you don't find out. The affair is still active even if it is "just" an EA. You cannot live your whole life waiting for her to slip up. Your choices are (1) break up the affair or (2) not. If not, you WILL divorce - no ifs ands or buts - it's just a matter of time. Only when you break up the affair can you even begin to consider steps toward marital recovery.

And that's what I'd like to do. As I said before, a lot of the advice here has been very helpful, and I am going to follow it as best as I can. I've already gotten her to remove him from phone, IM, e-mail, and social networking on her computer. The next step is the keylogger and working with her being in Withdrawal.

Originally Posted by maritalbliss
AH, I'm sensing a lot of reluctance on your part to do what you've been advised to do in order to end the A. We've explained how a long-distance A can be accomplished, how your WW can go underground, advised you to expose the A, implement spying tools, and you either ignore the comment or explain why it wouldn't work. Only when the posts are overwhelmingly in favor of a keylogger do you decide it's a good idea, and then you switch up and say you'll put it on your own computer. crazy

Note: I get that you're trying to think outside of the box, but consider: Your WW isn't going to do anything incriminating on her computer-tech/h's computer. She's going to do it on her own.

I am seeing a lot of "if x happens, then it's over."

What do you really want to do?

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, and as I said before, I am taking steps to break the A. I've gotten her to break off the contact via phone, e-mail, and social networking. The only suggestion that I am against is exposing the A to her family for the reasons I stated above. I just started giving this system a chance, so unless things don't change in the next couple weeks or so, I will expose it. That's what I want to do, and also continue to post updates and read more of your advice. Thanks!

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Originally Posted by saynomore
There are many things to do if you discover that they are still in contact besides saying it is over. That is what MB is all about. Have you exposed her adultery to her family? How bout his? Aren't you her to find out how to save your M? As long as you continue to keep her secrets she will suffer no consequences.
clap

MOST waywards slip up a time or two after NC is established. To stomp out and say "It's over" because of renewed contact is, IMO, premature. Now the 3rd and 4th time, sure. But once?

Nuclear exposure is your friend if you see any sign of ongoing contact.

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