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WantHealing - really looking forward to the questions your BH had that helped - I'm really to the point where I have only one question/decision - keep or quit the marriage. My WW and I just got back from a short trip where we were able to talk, but I'm still clueless as to what to do. We're seeing a marriage counselor in a few hours.

Once again, I can't thank you all enough for responding to my thread - I may not yet have much else to say, but I read and re-read your feedback and advice daily.

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Once again I thank you all. I'm liking the conversation between wanthealing and melodylane. For me, this is not about forgiveness, and in fact I gave her my forgiveness once (on D-Day) and will have to again soon as more of the lies have unraveled. For me, this is 100% about Trust. The question is, can I ever trust her again? Not to cheat, but with my heart, soul, vulnerabilities, emotions - MY SAFETY! That's been the hardest pill for me to swallow so far, that I trusted her with my safety (i.e. To not betray me, to not break my heart). Long story, but she's the first to get my heart and she's the first person I trusted with my soul-safety. Lesson learned. Never again, which doesn't bode well for the M outcome.

Quick answer to previous Q - first M was due to pregancy and we were not in love, at all. Tried to do the right thing for the sake of the kids (2). She was on the pill - i believe she went off intentionally to get pregnant. Same with current WW - several of you have asked if she did this to get pregnant - I believe yes, she did absolutely. Anyone else see a trend here? What's wrong with me???

:-(

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Thx for the BH questions wanthealing - very helpful and will consider these and others carefully.

On our trip this past weekend I raised the possibility that in order to keep me, she may have to give up the child. I told her I wasn't giving an ultimatum, but rather giving her something to think about so she can get an accurate feel for how she'd respond to that condition. Also shared about 'just compensation' and started to paint a picture of what I would need from her if I choose to stay.

Off to our first counseling appointment. Will post again after, and as my thoughts and feelings start to come together.

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Originally Posted By: RockRat99
For me, this is not about forgiveness, and in fact I gave her my forgiveness once (on D-Day) and will have to again soon as more of the lies have unraveled. For me, this is 100% about Trust. The question is, can I ever trust her again?


No, you can't. It was too much trust that led to the affair in the first place. If you had instead relied on appropriate boundaries, the affair could not have taken place. It is not trust that is the problem, but appropriate boundaries. If she is willing to affair proof your marriage in a way that would make it impossible for another affair to happen, you will have a future. But blindly trusting again will be a mistake. You can see how badly that turned out. Check this out:

Originally Posted By: Dr Harley
One topic is loss of trust. How can a spouse ever trust an unfaithful partner again? My answer is that the spouse should never have been trusted in the first place. I shouldn't be trusted by my wife, and I shouldn't trust her. The fact is that we are all wired for infidelity, and under certain conditions, we'll all do it. The way to protect your marriage from something that has been common to man (and women) for thousands of years is to recognize the threat, and do something to prevent it from happening. Basing a marriage on the Policy of Radical Honesty and the Policy of Joint Agreement goes a long way toward preventing an affair. Being each other's favorite leisure-time companions, and not being away from each other overnight are also important safety measures. Meeting each other's most important emotional needs, avoiding Love Busters and building an integrated lifestyle, free of secret second lives, are all ways to affair-proof your marriage. With these measures in place, we end up trusting our spouses because an affair becomes almost impossible to achieve.
here

Quote:
Same with current WW - several of you have asked if she did this to get pregnant - I believe yes, she did absolutely. Anyone else see a trend here? What's wrong with me???

:-(


It is really despicable that she did this to you and this makes me question whether you are safe with her. For her to sacrifice YOU for no other reason than she wanted to have a baby is astonishing in its cruelty. It just means that she places her own selfish interests over your marriage.

RR, I should have used the word RESENTMENT instead of forgiveness. That is the basic issue. Whether or not you can overcome resentment. If you can't overcome resentment, then this won't work.

As far as forgiveness, I would hold off on that until and unless she earns it. That is in her interest. And even if you do forgive her, that doesn't mean it is in your best interest to stay married to her. Check this out: Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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RR, Mel is right about the trust/boundaries issue. Since my A I have encouraged BH to "micro-manage" me--my cell phone is open to him, all my computer time is available for him to view, I participate in NO social networking, I account for every place I go, and I call him regularly to show him I'm thinking of him. I don't go out without BH. In fact, we spend so much more quality time together enjoying activities now post-A than we ever did before by following MB. So if you do want to give your M a shot, there is a chance you can be happy--maybe even happier than you've ever been. But to achieve this you will need to build love, keep OM out as much as possible, enforce no contact between WW and OM...and will your WW be willing to be an open book to you about every detail of her life, and are you open to keeping her accountable?

It's not an easy choice, RR, but you won't be wrong in any decision you make. My biggest legal advice, though, is to make a decision before the baby is born so that you can either 1. Be the only dad OC has and raise OC as your own, or 2. Get completely out of the picture so that you're not on the birth certificate or legally or financially responsible (you'd have to ask an attny how to secure this).


Me: WW
BH
DD(4)
DS(2)
DD(1)

"For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." (Jeremiah 29:11)

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That's perfect and makes perfect sense. I completely understand and agree about trust - I shouldn't have trusted in the first place, and it's MY fault for not setting appropriate boundaries to protect myself and us. On one hand, I'm an extraordinarily gracious man. On the other, I'm also co-dependant. My problem is that I've never established the boundaries you've correctly described between the two, so I set myself up for this. I recognize this as my core issue and just started some personal counseling (just me) to deal with this exact issue.

I also understand and agree with the difference between forgiveness and resentment. I'm a recovering alcoholic and resentment is my (our) #1 critical shortcoming. So yes, I DO forgive her (honestly because I love her and don't want her to live in shame - ultimately I want her to forgive herself), but you are correct, my greatest challenge will be with resentment - against her, and against the OC and what it represents (hate to hold something against an innocent child, but that's how I feel).

Clearly I have a ton of thinking and work yet to do and need/want to get to a decision soon before this all drives me insane. One more question:

Several of you have provided guidance re: the OM, and while I 'get it' I'm also seething with anger!!! How can there be no cost to this person? I want to ruin his life like he's ruined mine! I want to sue him for everything he's got and ruin every aspect of his life - exposing him for the low life homewrecker he is - before he does it again to someone else!!! I will see a lawyer to understand my legal options and positions re: the OC. I don't know who his wife is or how to find her or I'd have already contacted her.

Please advise on how to get through this aspect of this tragedy - please!!!

Today's an especially hard day and I'm wearing thin.....

RR

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Oh - sorry - 29 years sober.....

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RR, depending on what state your in, research alienation of affection and criminal conversation......

also intentional AND negligent infliction of emotional distress..,


Me: BS age 35
POS-eX-the SORRIEST, CRUELEST, LOWLY WAYWARD SCUMBAG out there
Married 14.5 years, together almost 16
DDay: 7-5-09
OC born: 7-23-09
no COM: tried 6 years frown
D filed 5/05/2011
D final 11/10/11
I was gaslighted for 2 years.

"You were not built for a safe story. Take risks and feel what it is like to actually be brave. It's worth it." Carlos Whittaker
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Originally Posted By: RockRat99


I also understand and agree with the difference between forgiveness and resentment. I'm a recovering alcoholic and resentment is my (our) #1 critical shortcoming. So yes, I DO forgive her (honestly because I love her and don't want her to live in shame - ultimately I want her to forgive herself), but you are correct, my greatest challenge will be with resentment - against her, and against the OC and what it represents (hate to hold something against an innocent child, but that's how I feel).


But keep in mind that sometimes resentment is our internal warning that something is very wrong. It is not a shortcoming to recognize that certain things need to be avoided. I am not saying that is necessarily the case here, but if you can't overcome resentment it won't be because of a personal shortcoming, but because this is beyond what most people could or would personally endure. There is NO VIRTUE in staying in an situation that will eternally trigger your resentment. That is just stupid. Keep in mind that this is the one sin that God allows divorce over.

Quote:


Several of you have provided guidance re: the OM, and while I 'get it' I'm also seething with anger!!! How can there be no cost to this person? I want to ruin his life like he's ruined mine! I want to sue him for everything he's got and ruin every aspect of his life - exposing him for the low life homewrecker he is - before he does it again to someone else!!! I will see a lawyer to understand my legal options and positions re: the OC. I don't know who his wife is or how to find her or I'd have already contacted her.


I would find out right away who she is and contact her. You can usually easily find this information on the internet. And I would not forewarn your wife. Tell her afterwards. In most cases, Dr Harley recommends exposing the affair wide and far. In this case, you have to be a little more strategic, because if you decide to stay and the OM signs away his rights to the child, you don't really want to have to battle with the OM's family. So for now, find his wife and let her know. That is the right and the decent thing to do...for EVERYONE.

Most lawyers will tell you to keep quiet. That is only because they are lazy and want as little trouble as possible. But that is the wrong thing to do. The OM's wife has been harmed behind her back and she needs to be informed. It is the same principle as your neighbors' bookkeeper embezzling her money. You surely would warn her so she could protect herself. Your wife and the OM are the embezzlers.

You might also consider suing the OM for alienation of affection, but you have other issues to deal with now.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted By: RockRat99
That's perfect and makes perfect sense. I completely understand and agree about trust - I shouldn't have trusted in the first place, and it's MY fault for not setting appropriate boundaries to protect myself and us. On one hand, I'm an extraordinarily gracious man. On the other, I'm also co-dependant. My problem is that I've never established the boundaries you've correctly described between the two, so I set myself up for this. I recognize this as my core issue and just started some personal counseling (just me) to deal with this exact issue.

I also understand and agree with the difference between forgiveness and resentment. I'm a recovering alcoholic and resentment is my (our) #1 critical shortcoming. So yes, I DO forgive her (honestly because I love her and don't want her to live in shame - ultimately I want her to forgive herself), but you are correct, my greatest challenge will be with resentment - against her, and against the OC and what it represents (hate to hold something against an innocent child, but that's how I feel).

Clearly I have a ton of thinking and work yet to do and need/want to get to a decision soon before this all drives me insane. One more question:

Several of you have provided guidance re: the OM, and while I 'get it' I'm also seething with anger!!! How can there be no cost to this person? I want to ruin his life like he's ruined mine! I want to sue him for everything he's got and ruin every aspect of his life - exposing him for the low life homewrecker he is - before he does it again to someone else!!! I will see a lawyer to understand my legal options and positions re: the OC. I don't know who his wife is or how to find her or I'd have already contacted her.

Please advise on how to get through this aspect of this tragedy - please!!!

Today's an especially hard day and I'm wearing thin.....

RR


See a lawyer for your legal protection.

However if the OM does not know he got your WW pregnant it maybe better to not go after the OM for CS. Once that door is open many OM will go after some form of custody. This will make NC very difficult.

So when going after the OM to punish him you will punish yourself by keeping the OM in your lives.

Did you straihgt out ask WW what she would do if you can't raise OC?

You need WW to answer this.

Remember there is nothing wrong with recovering or divorcing. Same goes for the decision to be the OC's dad.

I remember a WW, don't remember her name but she said that her BH decided to recover but refused to be the OC's dad and said he would not help raise the OC. WW and OC came home from the hospital. WW was in the shower. The OC started crying. BH picked up the OC to stop it from crying. That moment made the BH bound to the OC.

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Quote:
Remember there is nothing wrong with recovering or divorcing. Same goes for the decision to be the OC's dad.

I remember a WW, don't remember her name but she said that her BH decided to recover but refused to be the OC's dad and said he would not help raise the OC. WW and OC came home from the hospital. WW was in the shower. The OC started crying. BH picked up the OC to stop it from crying. That moment made the BH bound to the OC.


Exactly right. You don't have to decide right now but you do need to know your legal rights regarding the OC. Get that part taken care.

It was pops that fell in love with OC when he had to pick her up to stop her from crying.


Faith

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Rockrat,

There are advantages to getting the OM to take the OC, in that the OC would grow up with his/her half-siblings, did you consider that approach?

If you are going to keep the OC, I would advise you to get as much money from the OM as possible, it will help OC when college time rolls around and you are in your 70's.

I was a OC too, the child of the OM, and in my case the family broke up after adopting me out to another family. My first legal father was never able to cope with the betrayal, it was just too much.

God Bless
Gamma

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Once again thanks for helping keep my mind straight in this crooked time. Will talk to a lawyer this week. OM does know, and WW thinks he doesn't want any participation, but I personally want this in writing IF WW and I stay together. Someone said early on to not go by word of mouth, but to make sure legal ends are tied off permanantly.

State is AZ if anyone is familiar with state law here in the wild west.

Just got back from first marriage counseling (MC? I'm still learning this entire new language :-) and the topic of what my WW would do if I said no to the OC came up. Doubtful she'd let the child go, which I wrote about last week. If it were a decision, I'd be on the short straw, which would be OK I guess.

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Originally Posted By: faithful follower

Exactly right. You don't have to decide right now but you do need to know your legal rights regarding the OC. Get that part taken care.

It was pops that fell in love with OC when he had to pick her up to stop her from crying.


The story I remember was told by a WW. Pop's WW? Maybe yes/no.

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thanks faith and roads,,, that is what happened to me.

very briefly i had always been very active and touchy with my w during her preg's and when the kids were very little. i they cried at 2 am even tho they were sleeping on the w's side of the bed it was me that would get up go around and get them up to bring the little th my w for her feedings.

i was determined to make my w care for this baby on her own. until that day about 2 weeks after bringing her home.

rat... i will try and get some time this weekend to read up on your sit and see if i can add any insight from my experience


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6 kids together 15,19,21,23,29,30
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rat

i wanted to add something to show how adament i was about not being able to bond with our oc

with our other 6 kids in the delivery rom i was almost pushing the dr out of the way wanting to deliver them myself. couldn't wait to get my hands on our new little angel.

with the oc, while i was in the room i wanted nothing to do with the birth. i was merely the camera man for my w. had no interest in holding the baby, had no interest in cutting the cord - which the dr's and nr's all thought was strange since we had had all the kids with the same dr group and hew many of the delivery nr's

i may be the odd one out here but i do understand your w's attitude about not being able to give up the child. AND i don't necessarily think that means she is choosing between you and the child.

if she is truly remorseful and has given up all contact with om then i can see where a woman would have that eternal bond to the child she is carrying. her ability to love HER child unconditionaly is probably one of the reasons YOU love her.

she most likely sees this as HER child alone. i do see where she can want both you and the oc

here's another off beat thought.

1st it is mandatory that you consult a GOOD family lawyer and find out excatly what you rights are AND what kind of time line you have to contest perternity

after all that is done you can always try and work thru this with your w and the oc. if it goes south you can always walk away with your head held high that you did all you could to try and recover your marriage

Last edited by pops; 08/27/11 12:59 AM.

me-59 ww-55
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6 kids together 15,19,21,23,29,30
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I grew up in AZ. Sorry you find yourself here. My FWH got a 40 year old married women pregnant. She planned it because her 63 year old husband wouldn't let her have a baby and her clock was running out. It is easier from this side than your side. We are NC with OW and OC. FWH pays his CS and health insurance.

That said, most OM don't keep out of your M when they think that they are the bio. father of the OC. If you seek CS you are condemming the rest of your life to OM's presence in your life. Not only would he pay CS, he might want visitation, to show up at graduation and weddings, etc. If he is unaware of the pregnancy then I would reveal the A to his wife, send a NC letter and keep quite about the pregnancy.

You can choose to walk away from this M today, next month, or in two years. Many states give you a 2 year time line to determine paternity. Check with your attorney to determine about keeping your name off the birth certificate and when you would have to establish that you are not the father for the courts not to hold you liable for CS in the future if you D.

Keep in mind, POPS is in love with his little one now. If you stay and bond with this OC, which is more important to you, no CS for the OC or NC with OC after a D in the future. You were willing to adopt a child with your wife. This is NOT the way you wanted a child to come into your life. I get it, (we are NC 100% and OC is not welcome into our lives anymore than OW is...it is what it is) However, if you do the readings here, if your wife is willing to be on board to using the MB's principles to recover your M, then you can rebuild and recover, and you will have the child that you agreed to seek out and have with your wife. Not the OC's fault where it came from, your wife's fault.

An OC in your life, physically present or not, is always with you. It doesn't go away, but it's importance fades to almost unawareness as you recover and heal.

best wishes,
Fled


Me BS
D Day 4-2-2005
OC born 12-2004
DS 21, DS 12
Married 1993

May the love hidden deep inside your heart find the love waiting in your dreams. May the laughter that you find in your tomorrow wipe away the pain you find in your yesterdays.

Recovering....it's a long road, even with a dedicated FWH
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Originally Posted By: RockRat99


Just got back from first marriage counseling (MC? I'm still learning this entire new language :-) and the topic of what my WW would do if I said no to the OC came up. Doubtful she'd let the child go, which I wrote about last week. If it were a decision, I'd be on the short straw, which would be OK I guess.



RR, please be very wary about anything this MC tells you. There are very few good ones, but the majority are destructive to marriages. Ifnyour instincts tell you something is wrong, they are probably right. Cmpare what he/she says to Dr Harleys advice, because he has successfully saved thousands of these marriages. His advice is very different from most, though because he uses logic and reason; his ideas work.

In fact, I would strongly advise you to email dr Harley on the radio show and get his input. It is free and he is far and away the best in the business. You can get to him via the radio link at the top of the page. He can help you make the right decision and give you a PLAN.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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rr

i agree with melody that be very careful what your mc is telling you. we tried 3 during our recovery efforts. the 1st was full of pucky and the other 2 were ok. the one full of it was very early on just prior to my w's actual start of the PA and i still blame his incompetance as a major reason she ended up in the PA

on the cs issue be careful there also. we were close to you and your w's age when this struck us. me about 3 younger then you and my w about 3 older then yours.

the decision for cs was made for several reasons. our ages, my family health issues, our financial situation, what would happen if my w had to support teh kids in the event i was disabilitated, and the want to make om pay for his crime.

the thing i didn't see coming was how difficult it would be if om took visitation (which he did) on both my w and oc.

for that reason i wish i had not sought the cs. i actually gave the om the choice of walking away and dropping the cs but he turned it down.

things have smoothed out now and we have had few problems with the visits for the past 2 1/2 - 3 years. but we are over 10 years into this

when we left the hospital there was no name on the b-cert. my told them that i was not the father and she did not know who the faher was

lastly whether you stay married or D this will stay with you. we can't change the past. how you handle it and move forward is what matters.

i have to say that when this 1st struck me it was the most painful experience i had ever had. but as time went on and the healing started i realized that there are many things in life that made me count my blessings.

i was able to realize who i was on a deeper level. how strong i could be, how much compassion i had in me, how much i truly loved my w and how much forgiveness i had in me. all blessings from God


Last edited by pops; 08/28/11 01:46 AM.

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my oldest son 37
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In my personal experience- loving and raising the OC is the easy part. Recovering the marriage and maintaining a recovered marriage is the terribly difficult part.

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