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A reminder to posters that the purpose of this forum is to help others with Marriage Builders concepts. If you can help this poster with that, feel free to post. If not, kindly refrain from posting. Thank you.

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Wow, this is getting disturbing. I've been accused of not wanting advice, which I have repeatedly asked and thanked everyone for and there has been conflicting advice given by some of the most active posters.

I'm going to take a break for a while and focus on Plan A. Sometimes, what appears to be arguing betweem posters on someones thread can be frustrating.

tiredwife45, your explanation helped me a great deal. Thank you. I appreciate everyone's feedback and I spent the weekend reflecting on how I may be coming across to my wife. I am a little thick headed and struggle with seeing my own faults (these demands and DJ's especially) so I will focus on those and prayer and see what happens. I'm also going to finish/reread some of the books and try to get this stuff to become more of a habit.


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Originally Posted By: Wow777

I'm going to take a break for a while and focus on Plan A. Sometimes, what appears to be arguing betweem posters on someones thread can be frustrating.


Wow, stick to DR HARLEY's material and you can't go wrong. If you want your marriage to be great, you need to stick to the letter of his program. The folks who don't do this, tend to struggle and have resentments years later. I would hate to see that happen to you.

Dr Harley is not kidding when he says this:

Originally Posted By: Dr Bill Harley

The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide.
here

There shouldn't be any argument about the basics of this program. It is all right there in black and white.



"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted By: tiredwife45
I just found your own thread, so I'm cutting it and pasting it from where I responded on the other one:

I wonder HOW you give the advice, I guess. I usually have a habit of asking if she wants my input first. Then I usually ask questions to help her talk it out and then if she's struggling, I'll make some suggestions.

I have trouble with taking advice as well and this is what I have figured out about myself: I captitulated to whatever he wanted to do when he was home. ( I thought he worked hard and so I should just go along. I was not radically honest.) So there were areas that were MY domain: like homeschooling where I planned and did everything. I finally got to choose what "I" wanted to do. So when he would offer suggestions, I would get really upset because then I felt like I always had to do what he wanted to do. And yes, a lot of times his suggestions WERE better and that just made me feel worse, like I was incapable of making any decisions so I would get even more defensive or dismissive.

Did he want your input along the way? I know some husbands don't but did yours? I have always encouraged my wife for her input on things that concern a direction that I'm considering. For example, when I wanted to start learning how to fly, it was her encouragement that got me going. And, when I started a non-profit, her encouragement and agreement to be there beside me is what pushed me to do that. When she does give her input its usually very helpful. But, if there are times where I choose to do something a little different she gets offended. For example, when we had the non-profit business, she wanted to be deeply involved in the marketing/fund-raising aspects. One time we had come up with a fund-raising idea and I asked her to start the introduction letter and I would start gathering the list of companies that we would approach. She agreed that she wanted to do the letter more than the grunt work of finding possible donors. She procrastinated the letter for months. I didn't want to pressure her so in that time I had only asked her about it once. When she got around to it, it was missing a couple of key components as to why we were doing the work we were doing. When I made some suggestions on changes to include it she got offended and didn't finish the letter or help with fund-raising any further. Now, I know someone will come along and say that I made DJs of demands on how to write the letter. I didn't, really. We sat down and went through it together and I asked her some question about the areas that were missing and she responded that "well, you obviously want more in here than I did so why dont you just finish it".

I'm also trying to figure out with a counselor why any suggestions make me feel like a failure. Because if I make a mistake then I feel like I'm terrible. What have you found here? how can your husband know that you cant take suggestions if you dont tell him?

What has worked has been the radical honesty which I'm still working on. But if I am radicallly honest about where I want us to go eat or how I want to do vacation or other areas instead of letting him win all the time, I have been much more receptive to his suggestions in other areas. I can take a deep breath and say to myself, "He doesn't think I'm a failure. He just sees this differently. He doesn't think I'm incapable. Deep breath. And then I try to look at his side and we POJA it.

Don't know if it applies, but thought it might. Now that I've read your entire thread. your tone still sounds like you think you can see some situations much better than your wife. You are determined that you are right. Not really that I'm right. Only that I have some suggestions. Like I said earlier, I really dont care which way anyone decides. I can see why she would be passive agressive instead of radically honest. Your reactions ARE NOT HELPING HER TO BE RADICALLY HONEST. If I were her, I would feel like a complete failure with you...


So, what did your husband actually change to help you become honest with him? Or was it that you finally decided to start being open & honest and thats where you found the best results? I'm really trying to figure out if theres soomething that I can do to help her be radically honest with me. I can stop making suggestions all together if that will help. Your experience is really good for me to hear because it's more from my wifes perspective and that is helping more than just being told I'm making demands. Thanks for taking the time to respond to my thread.


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When you feel tempted to offer a suggestion, simply tell her you are available for any help if she needs it. That's it. Say it once with smile. Then go work on your own stuff.

If she wants your help or suggestions, she will ask for it.

Suggestions, when they are unasked for, can easily come across as covert criticism.


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Very good questions. What did my husband do???

Well, honestly it was more the people here and other places telling me to be radically honest and the stuff in Dr. Harleys books. Before, I didn't see the point. It seemed safer to keep it all in. I just didn't trust that he really loved me if he really knew me. ( Not sure I'm really quite there yet either, but maybe I've gotten to the point that I want to quit being scared all the time of what if he finds out about ... what if he knew...) What he has done to help me is to not overreact. For example, I made a mistake. I paid bills and then left them in my purse to mail and changed purses and totally forgot they were in there. So we got at 5 dollar late charge on the phone bill. In the past, I would have just filed it and he would never have seen it. This time I left it out. He asked me if it had been paid and then accepted my explanation and we went on. No big deal. Now if he had made a big deal about it, it would have been hard for me to be honest the next time.

Plus I've just had to tell him things like: Sweetie, when you don't tell me what I do right and only come in and make suggestions, it makes me feel like you think I haven't done a good job. Now that was not his intention. The fact is that he is a detail guy and also can't stand to not be doing something, so he will always find something for us to do. Sitting and doing nothing is not in his vocabulary. He has started to get really good about saying, "thank you for cooking dinner. Thank you for doing this for me. Thank you for doing that for me." Before, it felt like an unending list of things to do with no thanks or acknowledgement of what I had done correctly. Doing things effeciently just meant he gave me more to do!!!

So the donor thing: So she got the choice to do the donor letter or visit the people? Did she want to do either or did she do it because she felt like she should ( reluctant agreement). Then she didn't really want to do it and once again became passive agressive because she didn't know how to say she didn't want to. ( I acted enthusiastically. I should do this. It isn't that much.) So now she's mad at herself for agreeing to do this in the first place and her life is too busy or she doesn't get how to do it or whatever. Then she gets defensive. I know I've done this. I've got a million things to do and hubby asks me to do something ( which I never felt like I could say no. He wasn't mean or anything. My therapist is telling me that I view him more like my father who would get really angry when I disagreed or got sarcastic and rude if things were not done exactly like he wanted. But my husband isn't that way!!!) Then the kids need me for something and hubby wants it right then, and I groan or make a face because it isn't a good time and he would get mad that I didn't seem interested in doing it RIGHT THEN. This situation hasn't happened in a long time now and if it did, I would try to be radically honest and say, " I know you want this done, but I'm really overwhelmed right now and I really don't want to do that anymore. Can you take care of it?" Before, I just would have been really mad. But I wouldn't have shown much to hubby, I would have just yelled at the kids.

I totally missed what Never Guessed said as I wasn't on so I didn't get to read it. But I'm guessing it had something to do with the fact that she is the wayward wife and needs to repent. True, and I don't know maybe foggy thinking is involved in this. But I do know that the Harleys say that although there are no excuses for affairs there are reasons. So I think you are wise to clean up your side of the street.

Some of this is your wife understanding that for your relationship to be intimate that you need to understand what she is thinking all the time and that you will love and her more because of it. You will be able to meet her needs better and love her better when she is honest.

I don't know is this helps, but I hope it does.

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Originally Posted By: Wow777
Wow, this is getting disturbing. I've been accused of not wanting advice, which I have repeatedly asked and thanked everyone for and there has been conflicting advice given by some of the most active posters.


Thanking for advice doesn't mean you want to follow it. I know, because I used to do that a lot. wink

As MelodyLane says, follow Dr. Harley's plan and you can't go wrong. I do my best to help posters here (particularly men) understand and follow Dr. H's plans, because they have worked so well for me.

My number one recommendation is this: become a daily listener of Dr. Harley's radio show, because that's the only real place you'll get his raw, unfiltered advice, and learn why his recommendations are the way they are and why deviation can be a problem.

To get back to the original issue: believe it or not, there's a lot of work you can do to be less demanding and disrespectful toward your wife, and if you ever want to get that love bank full, you need to get this problem on the front burner and understand it and deal with it.

Marriage recovery is not for wimps. There's a lot of hard work, especially for men. A lot of it feels very unfair, but it is what it is.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

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This is really good stuff TW45.

So, you had some insecurities? Were they unfounded or was H actually contributing to them? If he was, what was it? Our situations sould very similar and maybe I'm doing some of the same stuff that he was. My W is very insecure and for the life of me I can't figure out why. She's so good at so many things that you'd expect her confidence to be really high. And yes, I tell her when she does a good job (like dinner, cleaning, CPR on the dead guy, all of it).

We've had the talk about telling her what she is doing well. It's one of her top EN's so I'm making it a point to tell her even more than the everyday stuff. Like when she is open & honest with me, I thank her and tell her how much it means to me. Your point about the "never ending list" is interesting. There was a point where it seemed like everything was on me (during the affair) and at times I almost begged her for help. Stuff like finances, cleaning, yard work. I was working full time (she wasn't working) and nothing was getting done. Thats better now because we're doing everything together (except cooking. I dont feel welcomed in the kitchen when she's cooking and its ok with me).

On the topic of the fund-raising. No, she didn't get the choice of one or the other. I appreciated her input and I was fully prepared to do both. Only, my part wasn't visiting the potential donors. I had to research all of the companies in our state and make a list of their names, addresses and contacts to send a mailing to. Most of these weren't local so the work was online and very tedious. I ended up writing a program to mine the data from the Chamber of Commerse websites.

Anyway, she likes the concept of marketing and offered to do the letter. I dont remember any "one or the other" conversations. Although, I'm not saying that she didn't see it that way.

I think you're right in respect to the idea that she really didn't want to do it and didn't know how to say so. I think the non-profit was way more than she realized and after it was going, she didn't know how to tell me that she wasn't really into it. We touched on this in one of our counselling sessions but we never dug into it to the point where she admitted that she didn't want to do it but she did admit to being passively resistant to it.

Anyway, this weekend she told me that she may have resentment toward me for the things that she's missing due to consequences of the affair. Mostly that she can't be part of the local fire dept, and since most of her friends were related to that somehow and most people in the fire dept are men, the boundary of not having opposite sex friends means I've taken her friends away. It sounds like more withdrawal talk and is frustrating for me. I mean REALLY, I'm to blame for these consequences??? I just asked her if there was anything that I could do to help and she said she'd let me know. We left it at that for now.

Thanks again for taking the time


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Originally Posted By: markos
Originally Posted By: Wow777
Wow, this is getting disturbing. I've been accused of not wanting advice, which I have repeatedly asked and thanked everyone for and there has been conflicting advice given by some of the most active posters.


Thanking for advice doesn't mean you want to follow it. I know, because I used to do that a lot. wink

As MelodyLane says, follow Dr. Harley's plan and you can't go wrong. I do my best to help posters here (particularly men) understand and follow Dr. H's plans, because they have worked so well for me.

My number one recommendation is this: become a daily listener of Dr. Harley's radio show, because that's the only real place you'll get his raw, unfiltered advice, and learn why his recommendations are the way they are and why deviation can be a problem.

To get back to the original issue: believe it or not, there's a lot of work you can do to be less demanding and disrespectful toward your wife, and if you ever want to get that love bank full, you need to get this problem on the front burner and understand it and deal with it.

Marriage recovery is not for wimps. There's a lot of hard work, especially for men. A lot of it feels very unfair, but it is what it is.


<sarcasm>You sound like me a little. I give advice to my wife, she doesn't want to follow it but thanks me for it and then I get frustrated...</sarcasm>

Actually, I'm very analytical so telling me that I'm being demanding and disrespectful and expecting me to just say "thank you, I'll do that" is a waste of time. I'm the kind of person that needs to understand the problem from the perspective of my wife. tiredwife45 has taken the time to post her experience which seems very similar to my wife's so it it helping me see it from that point of view. Don't be offended if I dont jump on the advice right away. If it seems like I'm arguing or apprehensive it's just because I dont yet understand the problem fully. Once I do, I'll be more than willing to make the necessary changes.

In fact, what I am doing by trying to dig into this is just as you said... "you need to get this problem on the front burner and understand it and deal with it"


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If it seems like I'm arguing or apprehensive it's just because I don't yet understand the problem fully.

Well, I THINK you'll discover that you short-changed a few of Dr. Harley's recommendations as you and WW started to re-connect.

1) What were the agreed-upon EPs that you committed to? And equally, if not not more, importantly, what were the negotiated sanctions for violations of those EPs?

2) What form and extent of Just Compensation did you demand from her for your proffered gift of getting past her betrayal of you and her marital vows?

When I (perhaps too) glibly referenced the BS's right to steer the recovery bus, these were the Harley-endorsed elements I was alluding to. Without them, couples rent by infidelity are merely applying the "Let's just get past this," gambit, and it rarely succeeds. The WS never internalizes the possibly radical changes necessary to her behavior, and the BS has the resentment just fester without being purged.

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Originally Posted By: Wow777
Originally Posted By: markos
Originally Posted By: Wow777
Wow, this is getting disturbing. I've been accused of not wanting advice, which I have repeatedly asked and thanked everyone for and there has been conflicting advice given by some of the most active posters.


Thanking for advice doesn't mean you want to follow it. I know, because I used to do that a lot. wink

As MelodyLane says, follow Dr. Harley's plan and you can't go wrong. I do my best to help posters here (particularly men) understand and follow Dr. H's plans, because they have worked so well for me.

My number one recommendation is this: become a daily listener of Dr. Harley's radio show, because that's the only real place you'll get his raw, unfiltered advice, and learn why his recommendations are the way they are and why deviation can be a problem.

To get back to the original issue: believe it or not, there's a lot of work you can do to be less demanding and disrespectful toward your wife, and if you ever want to get that love bank full, you need to get this problem on the front burner and understand it and deal with it.

Marriage recovery is not for wimps. There's a lot of hard work, especially for men. A lot of it feels very unfair, but it is what it is.


<sarcasm>You sound like me a little. I give advice to my wife, she doesn't want to follow it but thanks me for it and then I get frustrated...</sarcasm>

Actually, I'm very analytical so telling me that I'm being demanding and disrespectful and expecting me to just say "thank you, I'll do that" is a waste of time. I'm the kind of person that needs to understand the problem from the perspective of my wife. tiredwife45 has taken the time to post her experience which seems very similar to my wife's so it it helping me see it from that point of view. Don't be offended if I dont jump on the advice right away. If it seems like I'm arguing or apprehensive it's just because I dont yet understand the problem fully. Once I do, I'll be more than willing to make the necessary changes.

In fact, what I am doing by trying to dig into this is just as you said... "you need to get this problem on the front burner and understand it and deal with it"


No problem, Wow; I'm not offended in the slightest.

Ever seen Lord of the Rings? If so, do you recall the scene where Bilbo promises to turn loose of the ring, debates and talks about it a long time, finally makes his decision, then heaves a sigh of relief and starts to go on his merry way and then Gandalf says:

"Bilbo ... the ring is still in your pocket."

A lot of times to help people here we need to let them know the ring is still in their pocket. i.e., they say they are going to follow the steps to recovery, but they are going on without making a necessary change.

Don't be offended if I keep pointing out any spots I happen to see where there's still a necessary change to be made. smile


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
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If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Originally Posted By: Wow777
Originally Posted By: markos
Originally Posted By: Wow777
Wow, this is getting disturbing. I've been accused of not wanting advice, which I have repeatedly asked and thanked everyone for and there has been conflicting advice given by some of the most active posters.


Thanking for advice doesn't mean you want to follow it. I know, because I used to do that a lot. wink

As MelodyLane says, follow Dr. Harley's plan and you can't go wrong. I do my best to help posters here (particularly men) understand and follow Dr. H's plans, because they have worked so well for me.

My number one recommendation is this: become a daily listener of Dr. Harley's radio show, because that's the only real place you'll get his raw, unfiltered advice, and learn why his recommendations are the way they are and why deviation can be a problem.

To get back to the original issue: believe it or not, there's a lot of work you can do to be less demanding and disrespectful toward your wife, and if you ever want to get that love bank full, you need to get this problem on the front burner and understand it and deal with it.

Marriage recovery is not for wimps. There's a lot of hard work, especially for men. A lot of it feels very unfair, but it is what it is.


<sarcasm>You sound like me a little. I give advice to my wife, she doesn't want to follow it but thanks me for it and then I get frustrated...</sarcasm>

Actually, I'm very analytical so telling me that I'm being demanding and disrespectful and expecting me to just say "thank you, I'll do that" is a waste of time. I'm the kind of person that needs to understand the problem from the perspective of my wife. tiredwife45 has taken the time to post her experience which seems very similar to my wife's so it it helping me see it from that point of view. Don't be offended if I dont jump on the advice right away. If it seems like I'm arguing or apprehensive it's just because I dont yet understand the problem fully. Once I do, I'll be more than willing to make the necessary changes.

In fact, what I am doing by trying to dig into this is just as you said... "you need to get this problem on the front burner and understand it and deal with it"


A note about understanding:

You need to understand that this is a problem.

You don't need to understand why it's a problem. You don't need to understand why your wife feels the way she does in order to stop behavior that is making love bank withdrawals.

You can figure out those details later. In the Marriage Builders plan, you have to stop all behavior that your spouse isn't enthusiastic about, whether you understand the reasons or not.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

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But sometimes you need someone to tell you exactly what it is you are doing to correct your behavior.

If all you say is you are making me feel bad, stop it, but when asked what it is and you can't give a concrete answer, it's pretty darn hard for the person you are asking to stop it to know what it it is they are to stop.

(I hope that came out ok.)

Sometimes asking to understand is not asking to understand the why for someone else, it's asking to understand the what it is you are doing.

If I have goal A, and you are telling me I'm anti-A, then if I think I'm striving towards goal A and you keep telling me I'm anti-A without specifics, it's very hard to understand.

Sometimes understanding is not understanding why someone feels how they do, but getting to the specifics of what you are doing that leads them to feel that way.

It's a valid question to request detailed examples of the troublesome behavior. Otherwise, how does someone know what to stop if no details are provided?

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Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
If it seems like I'm arguing or apprehensive it's just because I don't yet understand the problem fully.

Well, I THINK you'll discover that you short-changed a few of Dr. Harley's recommendations as you and WW started to re-connect.

1) What were the agreed-upon EPs that you committed to? And equally, if not not more, importantly, what were the negotiated sanctions for violations of those EPs?

2) What form and extent of Just Compensation did you demand from her for your proffered gift of getting past her betrayal of you and her marital vows?

When I (perhaps too) glibly referenced the BS's right to steer the recovery bus, these were the Harley-endorsed elements I was alluding to. Without them, couples rent by infidelity are merely applying the "Let's just get past this," gambit, and it rarely succeeds. The WS never internalizes the possibly radical changes necessary to her behavior, and the BS has the resentment just fester without being purged.


1. The EPs and their sanctions were not really negotiated. They were firm boundaries of mine and the sanctions for not following them were simply that I would no longer work on the marriage. I would move to plan D. That being said, I know that it takes time to create new habits and I'm not willing to walk away for slight infractions of MOST of the EPs. I say MOST because the ones that have to with contact with POSOM were single elimination EPs. Any breakage of those and I would be history. (I know this is not really considered an EP but I listed it as a boundary that I would not bend on). The others, like conversations with other men... Since she works with mostly men, I realize that she will catch herself and redirect conversations. She has shown me texts that she has received from men that were not work related. She responded appropriately to them and sent them on their way. I have told her each time how much it means to me for her to be doing that and being open any showing me.

Oter EPs included committment to MB program, all recreational activity to be done together, no over-nights apart, no in-town shopping without me until we move to a different town, no personal relationships with opposite sex

2. The Just Compensation was boiled down to 2 main points (all of which surround the EPs).
a). She has to show my heart the care necessary to heal (NC, affection, help with finances, general care & concern for where I am in the healing process)
b). She has to be open and honest with me so that I can change my behavior that upsets her. This will help me to clean up my part of the marital problems that existed pre-A


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Originally Posted By: Enlightened_Ex
But sometimes you need someone to tell you exactly what it is you are doing to correct your behavior.

If all you say is you are making me feel bad, stop it, but when asked what it is and you can't give a concrete answer, it's pretty darn hard for the person you are asking to stop it to know what it it is they are to stop.

(I hope that came out ok.)

Sometimes asking to understand is not asking to understand the why for someone else, it's asking to understand the what it is you are doing.

If I have goal A, and you are telling me I'm anti-A, then if I think I'm striving towards goal A and you keep telling me I'm anti-A without specifics, it's very hard to understand.

Sometimes understanding is not understanding why someone feels how they do, but getting to the specifics of what you are doing that leads them to feel that way.

It's a valid question to request detailed examples of the troublesome behavior. Otherwise, how does someone know what to stop if no details are provided?


Thank you for putting it so clearly


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Ok, let's work backwards:

JC's (generously translated): So, how's she doing?

Is she showing you the care, etc, required? (We already know the answer, since you're still here asking for help!)

Has she been open and honest, in dispute-avoiding ways, in displaying to you those things about yourself that bother her? (And this is quite a stretch to be a JC element: "To compensate you for my infidelity, I'm going to instruct you on how NOT to give me excuses to do it again!" Kinda like an embezzler being sentenced to NOT re-applying for employment with the embezzled company! crazy )

Let's save your "EPs" for later.

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I'm putting my thoughts in red. But I don't think you ever answered my question: how much UA time are you getting and is it good and meeting those 4 top needs? Are you having fun together? The more she has fun the less she will miss the fire department. This is another example from us. I was ULTRA involved at church and I realized why when I started trying to work on our marriage. He was gone or busy doing chores. We spend time at home but not TOGETHER having fun. we did chores, fun stuff with kids, etc. But we were not connecting together. You can ask those on this board, but I kicked and screamed about giving up my involvement because that is where I got my admiration ( top need) and recreation ( top need) . They said I would miss it less if hubby and I were doing it more, and that is the truth. So why does she like the fire department so much? What needs is that filling for her? You need to fill those needs in your UA time.


Originally Posted By: Wow777
This is really good stuff TW45.

So, you had some insecurities? Were they unfounded or was H actually contributing to them? If he was, what was it? Our situations sould very similar and maybe I'm doing some of the same stuff that he was. My W is very insecure and for the life of me I can't figure out why. She's so good at so many things that you'd expect her confidence to be really high. And yes, I tell her when she does a good job (like dinner, cleaning, CPR on the dead guy, all of it). Yes, my husband would say the same thing about me. He says he doesn't see how I do it all: homeschooling 3 kids, directing a kids choir, helping take care of his 101 year old grandmother ( was also taking care of my dad before he died) etc My homeschooling group things I'm so on top of everything and super organized, same thing with church. But inside I'm convinced I'm never good enough. I'm very performance based, unfortunately. A lot of it came from me, but he did contribute to it with his nitpicking early in our marriage


I think you're right in respect to the idea that she really didn't want to do it and didn't know how to say so. I think the non-profit was way more than she realized and after it was going, she didn't know how to tell me that she wasn't really into it. We touched on this in one of our counselling sessions but we never dug into it to the point where she admitted that she didn't want to do it but she did admit to being passively resistant to it.If she is like me she didn't want to let you down. She felt like she said she would, so she should and she doesn't know how to get out of situtations like this.

Anyway, this weekend she told me that she may have resentment toward me for the things that she's missing due to consequences of the affair. Mostly that she can't be part of the local fire dept, and since most of her friends were related to that somehow and most people in the fire dept are men, the boundary of not having opposite sex friends means I've taken her friends away. It sounds like more withdrawal talk and is frustrating for me. I mean REALLY, I'm to blame for these consequences??? That sounds foggy to me. Sorry, but those are consequences of her affair. I just asked her if there was anything that I could do to help and she said she'd let me know. We left it at that for now.

Thanks again for taking the time

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Originally Posted By: NeverGuessed
[
2) What form and extent of Just Compensation did you demand from her for your proffered gift of getting past her betrayal of you and her marital vows?


I think it might just be the way you are wording this that is causing confusion and we are probably thinking the same thing. Just compensation is NOT whatever the BS just makes up. It is a very specific set of behaviors that constitute just compensation. It is summarized in Requirements for Recovery:

Originally Posted By: Dr Bill Harley

The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide.


It involves complete separation from the affair partner, implementing extraordinary precautions followed by the Basic Concepts of Marriage Builders. THAT is what Dr Harley means by just compensation.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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JC's (generously translated): So, how's she doing?
She's doing some things very well. Such as helping with the finances, and general care of wher I am in the healing process. She asks me how I am doing and shows concern if I tell her about the dreams. She regularly asks if there is anything she can do to help. Sometimes there will be something, sometimes not. I'm open about those too.

Other things like affection I seem to have to initiate. Like holding hands, snuggling at night, etc.

As far as #2 being a stretch, its not really a stretch for me. I consider it JC because she never told me before the affair what I was doing to driver her away. Does she owe me the consideration of telling me what I can/should change so I dont continue to driver her away? I think so but I may be stretching the definition of JC.

I see it as "To compensate you for my allowing your behavior to go unchanged, I'm going to be open with you about what upsets me so I dont feel like a POS by you anymore". Yes, she can compensate me by taking responsibility for not being strong enough to tell me.


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Originally Posted By: WOW

[b]Anyway, this weekend she told me that she may have resentment toward me for the things that she's missing due to consequences of the affair.[/b] Mostly that she can't be part of the local fire dept, and since most of her friends were related to that somehow and most people in the fire dept are men, the boundary of not having opposite sex friends means I've taken her friends away.


WOW, you can safely assure her that she won't have resentment when these activities are replaced with better things in your marriage. The greater risk would be YOUR resentment if she continued that involvement. The key, as tirewife suggested, is UA time. Once you become each others favorite recreational companion, and are IN LOVE, she won't miss that stuff.

Effective Marriage Counseling pg 112 - 113

What about Resentment?

One of the most common objections to the POJA is that it creates
resentment when its followed. I agree; it does usually create some
resentment. But far more resentment is created when it is not followed.
An illustration will help make this important point.

George is invited to watch football with his friend Sam. He tells
his wife, Sue, that he plans to accept the invitation. Sue objects.

If George goes ahead and watches the game, hes guilty of independent
behavior. He is not following the POJA, and Sue will be resentful.
When George does something against the wishes of Sue, I call
her resentment type A.

If George follows the POJA and doesnt accept Sams invitation,
George will be resentful. When George is prevented from doing something
because of Sues objections, I call his resentment type B.

Which type of resentment makes the largest Love Bank withdrawals:
type A or type B? The answer is type A, and thats why the POJA
helps build Love Bank balances. Ill explain.

When George violates the POJA, Sue has no choice but to feel
the effect of the thoughtless decision (Love Bank withdrawals) for
as long as memory persistspossibly for life whenever the event is
recalled. But when George follows the POJA, the negative effect is
limited in time. It lasts only as long as it takes to discover an enjoyable
alternative that is acceptable to Sue.

George lets Sue know how disappointed he is with her objection
but is willing to discuss other options. Sue wasnt invited to watch
football and doesnt want to invite herself to Sams house, so she
suggests inviting Sam and his wife to their house to watch football.
George calls Sam, he and his wife accept, and the new activity puts
an end to Georges type B resentment.

Type A resentment can last forever, but type B resentment stops
the moment a mutually enjoyable alternative is discovered. Those
with poor negotiating skills may have trouble seeing the difference
because they have not learned how to resolve conflicts. They may
feel resentment about a host of issues that have been unresolved in
their marriage. But after you teach a couple to negotiate successfully,
unresolved issues are minimized. Then it becomes clear to
them that the POJA helps build Love Bank balances by eliminating
type A resentment.
_________________________


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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