*Dealing with childhood molestation.

*Having my children molested by other children - family members.

*Losing my grandmother.

*The death of our little boy at 20 weeks, and having to bury him in a coffin that was ridiculously large for him, but it was the smallest they had.


~~~This thread inspired by Lady Clueless, who has suffered even more, yet for her also the infidelity was still far worse.

In case I wasn't clear, you're supposed to add your "worse than", also.

I'd tell you, darling, but then I'd have to shoot you.

t&l

P.S. Your son says goodnight.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> Mom <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Good night, Buddy Boy!

...cancer and chemo...

* my daughters being molested

*watching my daughter take the stand against the perp, with him in the courtroom

* being molested as a child
* watching my grandparents who lived with us die

anything I've ever experienced in my entire life.

Worse than....

Loosing my mom to a car accident when I was 13.

Loosing my father when I was 25.

..I ever thought it could possibly be.

anything I've ever experienced in my life.

I can't imagine anything being more emotionally debilitating.

...any nightmare I've ever had.
...anything I ever thought I'd experience in my lifetime.

Basically, she could have told me ANYTHING on the night of D-Day other than this and I'd be over it by now.

... any torture you might wish inflicted on your greatest enemy.

Unless you have endured it, you cannot know what betrayal is like.

being abused as a child

watching my mother die of cancer

dealing with the my father's suicide

hmmmm,

Let me see...

If you took the sum total of EVERYTHING that has hurt me, emotionally, psychologically, physically, even small cuts and bruises (and childbirth and surgery), over my 36 years, and raise them to a power of a gazillion, I still don't think you could touch the pain, fear, panic, anguish, sadness, ANGER, disappointment, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera...

* Losing my mother to cancer when I was 10 and growing up without her.

* ...I could ever had imagined. It ripped my world apart. Shredded every belief that I had held my entire life. It altered who I am.

I would have to agree with this statement and the alterations are not for the better.

"Losing my mom at age 21 due to a heart attack"

"Losing my dad at age 23 due to an accident"

"The second A devasted me, changed me to the core, I will never have the same beliefs about many things again...some of that is good, most of it isn't"

"The financial ruin due to his A and WS mindset at the time"

MicheleG and Still Crazy, I just have to say that even if you have some changes in you that you consider for the worse, that your hearts are golden. Any of us BS's who survive this have our worth proved in the fire.

Not that the affair was some gift that brought this out - I do not buy into that at all. The affair is not a gift, it is the worst thing that could ever have happened to us. The grace of God through our trial is a gift. The healing He brings is a gift. The friends we found here are a gift. God can bring good out of the worst circumstances, but that does not mean they somehow were not the worst circumstances. His love in our hearts as we understand a little of His pain, is the greatest gift of all.

Anything that I can imagine. I would literally rather die that experience it again.

Beautifully said, Neak, especially this...

Neak, thank you. His healing has been a gift. And so are all the friends I have found here, that I have no doubt. This thread hit a heart string. I found myself responding with tears in my eyes, something I haven't done in awhile. The pain here is palpable, particularly your story...(((Neak)))

We shall overcome.

Unless something terrible happens to my daughter, nothing could ever touch it.

It has even taken from me the ability to truly grieve my mother’s death. She died a few weeks before D-day and it seemed to be the event that launched the emotional adultery to a physical adultery. I was the probate representative and Wayzilla pushed hard for me to get my mother’s cash and investments into our joint accounts. And then came D-day. In the end per her plan, she took half of my mother’s inheritance. Selfish and entitled. Now the passing of my mother seems permanently attached, tainted and stained by my XWW’s pigsty adultery.

But….I am now a far stronger, far wiser, more compassionate man and father than I have ever been or perhaps could ever have been. It is truly the ultimate trial by fire.

I have to say that there are a few posts on this thread that bother me...while infidelity is worse that anything I have ever experienced..including traumatic injuries, sexual abuse, physical abuse...I would NEVER suggest that infidelity is worse than my child getting assaulted. IMHO, there is nothing in the world that comes before your children...nothing. If I could stop my child from being sexually assaulted I would endure the pain of infidelity every single day of my life.

...witnessing one of my children seriously injured in a major accident

...getting a call at work from my W one morning that a man had broken into our home and assaulted her in front of our children

...the first time I was betrayed, because this time my choice to continue the relationship after the first betrayal eventually led to even worse betrayal by the same person years later. At 43, M'd with 2 children and lots of joint property, the choices open to me are very different than they were when I was 25 and single and everything I owned was my own.

* than when I lost everything in a freak flood and had to start over.

* than when I got shot a week after D-day.

* than when my nephew was killed on the 4 wheeler on Thanksgiving.

* than when my mother beat me into a coma when I was 7.

anything I have ever experienced in my life.

I have never in my life felt such pain and confusion. All of my beliefs and the way I looked at life before D-day has all changed.

I agree with MEDC that "If I could stop my child from being sexually assaulted I would endure the pain of infidelity every single day of my life." That being said I think many people underestimate the impact that being molested has on a child, even when it has happened to them personally. I am 38 and just this past year started to see how being molested has altered my behavior as a mother and a wife. It changed my beliefs and the way I look at life just as dramatically as being a BS did. It just happened a long time ago, so the wound is not fresh, and it took years for me to come to terms with just how much it affected me.

While I agree with MEDC, I have to qualify that a bit. I DO endure the pain of infidelity every single day of my life. It doesn't go away, I just become more and more accustomed to it. If there was a way to know that this pain I bear somehow saved a child, particularly my child from molestation, it would actually lessen it a bit. As it is, I suffer this for no reason at all and that in itself is painful.

I've got to say I completely agree. Are there people actually saying given the two options of;
1) have your young children molested or abused.
2) deal with infidelity

That they would actually choose 1 over 2? Maybe I'm not reading it right and misunderstanding. But tell me that's not the case.

I'm a better man now than I was before WW's "A". Did it hurt? yes. Do I still suffer some frustration over it? sure. But my self worth and happiness are not based on someone else. Especially someone who acts so selfishly. I'm fine on my own (if that's the end result) and will raise my children to be better than WW.

I read some of the statements in this thread and seriously consider how much MB is helping these people if they think dealing with infidelity is the end of the world and the worst possible thing one could experience.

I realize my opinions may not be real popular here but I just don't get it. Tell me I'm wrong in thinking people would put there own emotional well being (as mature adults) over that of their young impressionable children!

And if dealing with an affair has shaken "every belief I've ever had". I suggest questioning what your beliefs have been.

To quote my brother.
"there is no hope in people, there is only hope in god"

"I do not have faith in anyone, my faith is reserved for Jesus Christ our lord"

To put hope and faith in people means that we will eventually be disappointed. When people disappoint me I will forgive and move on knowing that God has a plan that I may not be able to see myself.

MEDC, it isn't that I wouldn't suffer the pain of infidelity if it would keep my children from being molested.

But the pain I went through at having them molested, the price of ceaseless vigilance and never letting them around these children - our family members - without direct supervision, is not worse than what I experienced at the hand of my husband. It affects my life every day, and has for the past 7 years, but still was not worse for me than his deep betrayal.

IMO, you're talking apples and oranges. I would suffer any pain to protect my children, but what we went through as a family was/is small compared to what I went through as a BW.

Sorry if that disturbs you, but what I said is about my pain as it relates to the events of my life, and is a completely separate subject from my children's pain.

By the same sort of reasoning, Lady Clueless and I would be saying we would rather have our children die than suffer infidelity again.

That is just not logical. It also does not seem hard to understand clearly what is meant.

Do I need to point out that Lady C and I were NOT saying we would rather have our children die than be betrayed?

Just in case...


We weren't!

FormerPF,
I don't people are saying given the two options they would pick 1 over 2. I think what they are saying is that unfortunately they have had both occur in their lives and they think being a BS hurt more.

The point I was trying to make is that if they feel that way then maybe they don't fully understand the affect being molested has on a child. It changes that childs beliefs and affects them in ways they may never realize.

For me, I became such a controlling mother that I had extreme anxiety if my child was out of my sight. This put a huge strain on my marriage and on my childs development. Fortunately this past year I have started to deal with this and am finally beginning to heal from being molested over 30 years ago. See being molested you carry the pain with you everyday for life, it just gets blurred and you don't realize the source of your messed up thoughts.
Victoria

And another hug to MicheleG. {{{Michele}}}

Lady C's post about her children helped a FWS to begin to understand the pain he had caused his wife. It is my hope that this thread can also be a helpful tool in showing them where, on the Pain-o-meter, they put their spouse.

Oh yeah, I forgot.

Something DID hurt worse than the betrayal from my wife.

The betrayal from my church family that turned me into the pariah that I am today.

What a strange thing, to tell people they are obligated to feel more hurt by X than by Y.

It is a true master who can adjust the amount he suffers based on a moral judgment.

GC

I think that is kind of an obvious statement. I never suggested otherwise.

Sorry if my being bothered by a few statements on here has bothered you. While i can imagine greater pains than the death of a child or infidelity...I find it hard to believe that anything could impact me more than knowing my child was sexually assaulted.

We don't have to agree on this. I offered my opinion and view.

I understand where you are coming from.

Yes, i agree that would be a strange thing to do. Who did that? I will give them helll. See, offering your opinion about things is not telling someone else what their obligations are....oh, IF I could only have that power.

I said it was strange, not that you couldn't do it. I'm not going to bully anybody.

Victoria38:

Your post makes a great deal of sense. And emphasizes my thoughts. You carry the burden of your molestation to this day, some 30 years later. The betrayal of my spouse happened when I was an adult, fully capable of understanding it, dealing with it and moving on. I can say with full confidence that I will not be carrying this around for 30 years. My kids might and I will do everything possible to help them overcome my WW's actions, but I would choose to go through this 100 more times rather than know the pain my child would go through being molested or abused and how that would affect the rest of their lives.


Again, because the hope/faith was placed in people, who ultimately are neither perfect or righteous.

I am in no way dismissing the pain that comes from betrayal. I have felt it to. But we can choose to let that rule who we are, or move beyond it. To dwell on how this is the worst possible thing ever just puts the BS in an even more "woe is me" position and does not necessarily help in personal recovery IMO.

Victoria, I don't think anyone is going to argue with your perceptions of your own abuse. If it was the same, or even worse than being betrayed, then that is your perfectly valid assessment.

But for you to judge that those of us who said what we did "don't understand", you are trying to put your own perceptions over the top of ours.

I was molested, scarred, and an adult before I was able to deal with it fully. I shed many tears over my pain at being molested. For me, infidelity was much worse.

It is not hard at all for me to accept that for you, the molestation was worse. But I don't understand why you are portraying my perception as being, basically, ignorant. Uninformed.

I have been in both roles, and am also the best judge of my own pain. Please give me the same respect I am giving you.

Well, not only do you NOT have the ability to do that here...you also shouldn't.
You misread my post.
I NEVER said there was an obligation to feel a certain way. What I did was offer my opinion. I can't tell someone here what to do.

Victoria is offering her opinion Neak...she isn't saying that yours has no value. She used words like "maybe" and "for me."

These assessments are incredibly interesting. Me, I never had any experience to compare with mine.

I wonder how much our perceptions are clouded by the passage of time.

I also am baffled by the incongruity between how painful this experience is and how painful it is perceived to be in the outside world.

Maybe because it doesn't have much of a physical manifestation in the sufferer. You look the same except for the sudden weight loss (a.k.a. "the upside").

And possibly because stoicism is so admired.

And possibly because it's considered fair play by too many people.

MEDC, we're all good. You have your opinion and I have mine, no shock that they are different.

I clarified, you clarified, I think we're both clear. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Also, FPF, I don't know if you saw what I posted above, that Lady Clueless sharing what she did helped a FWH gain a new perspective on his adultery. That is what I am hoping to accomplish here, not by miring down BS's and keeping them from a good recovery.

You may not realize how happy I am, both in my life and in my marriage. Also how happy (now) many of the other posters are. Infidelity was the worst pain in my life, but it's also in the past, not something that still weighs me down every day or causes a woe-is-me attitude.

Even those that are still in pain will heal faster for accepting their pain, validating it, and then moving on. Without all the early recovery time that I spent getting to know my pain, turning it around to look at it from every angle, examining it inside and out, I don't think I would have recovered as deeply.

I expect that's so.

The maybe doesn't change the basic meaning of this sentence. "If I feel that way, then maybe I don't fully understand the affect being molested has on a child."

Even with a maybe, I have just fully discredited my opinion by saying that.

I maintain that I do understand. No maybe. My perception is different, and I accept that. But a non-identical viewpoint does not necessarily mean that either of us doesn't understand, but only that our experiences were not the same.

Our oldest son was born with a heart defect that required open heart surgery at 23 hours old. He's made a full recovery now, but for the first 2 days the prognosis was not very good. Infidelity outweighs the anguish I felt those first 2 days by like a gazillion! This stuff will crush the strongest person.

Physical pain pales in comparison to the pain of infidelity. Let me put it this way. If I were given an opportunity to go back in time and prevent my DW's A from happening by say sticking my hand in a woodchipper....

I'd be typing this one handed. Of course, I wouldn't be here then anyways. Just plain sucks!

Want2Stay

Neak, My point is that for some the affects of being molested may be far greater than they are able to see at this moment. It was just this last year that I began to realize the impact being molested has had on my life. Yes this is just my own experience. But given that this is a possible outcome, I would be devasted if my daughter were molested, knowing that her life could be altered in such a way.

I think you missed that I said being a BS was the worst pain I ever felt. But, even though the pain of being a BS was the worst so far for me, I am fairly confident that I would feel even more pain if my daughter were to be molested.

I never meant to say you were ignorant or to disrespect you and I apologize for making you feel that way. Sometimes I tend to ramble, but I want you to know that even though we have felt the pain differently for the events in our lives, I completely understand your point of this thread. It was just this morning that I was wondering if my FWH fully understands the pain being betrayed has caused me. Sometimes I think he does and that in itself eases the pain.

I also think that if more WS's could understand the pain their betrayal caused then maybe there would be fewer revenge affairs.

Neak:

I appreciate your thoughts and opinion. I did see where you said this had helped a WS realize the pain they had caused and that is good. And I agree that we must look at the pain and grieve to move past it.

The point being we can and will get past it. There is no getting past death, which others suggested was less painful than infidelity.

Worse than...

being forcibly molested almost everyday for years by brothers.

having my father ask what I did to encourage those perps when the molestation was revealed.


Why is this infidelity worse?

I was born into my family. They did not CHOOSE me. They just GOT me.

My husband CHOSE me over ALL others. He then made a promise (actually repeated that promise to me often) to love, cherish, and protect me. We spent 24 years building our life together.

He also knew the betrayals of my past and all that I worked through to become a healthy woman, wife and mother. AND he knew how much I trusted him...completely. I had no doubt in his faithfulness and commitment.

With THAT knowledge, he willingly made the decision, THE CHOICE to take my love and trust in him and betray all that we were. In doing so, that led him to not only ABANDON me, but also our children, all of whom he actively planned the conception of and committed to love, protect, and BE THERE for.

To have been CHOSEN, and then DISCARDED like disgusting trash. That is the pain I face.

He then USED my sexual abuse as a rationalization to others for his affair and told LIES about me and our SF to justify himself. I shared with him what had been up to that point in my life the most horrid experience ever, and he used it against me.

Returning and becoming a former WS, does not change the reality of the choice to betray and abandon.


The wound is much deeper. Yes, the molestation changed the core of who I was, I'm sure. I pray one day I will look back on this part of my life and no longer trigger about my husband's infidelity, like I no longer trigger from the molestation; and that I no longer ache in the core of my being.

To get to that place after facing the molestation, it took years of painful work and turning it over to God repeatedly as He peeled the layers off of me, and allowed me to bloom again.

I believe God will do that again with me. But I acknowledge that the wound from infidelity runs deeper. And I believe that is so because my husband and I became one flesh in our bodies and in our spirits when we spoke our vows before God.

My 9 & 11 yos's were talking a few days ago. The 9 yos said something like mommy and daddy were apart last year. The 11 yos said, "Yes, but their souls weren't."

tst and I just looked at each other with tears in our eyes. Our 11 yos understood that our souls had been united when we said our vows.

THAT is why the betrayal runs so deep.

((((SMB))))

BEAUTIFUL!!

Thank you, Mimi.

I wish it didn't hurt so.

SMB,

Thank you for that post..

You almost made me tear up.... You need to make post like that when I'm at home... Not at work....LOL

Knowing that you and tst are in recovery is inspirational...And I needed to see that today...

SMB that was an AWESOME post.

Pariah, There is not doubt that double betrayal is a horrible thing and painful beyond belief. I would beg to differ that what they did cause you to become. We can't control what people do or don't do in our lives, but I would ask you to consider that how you react to it is on you. Not that it doesn't hurt, not that it isn't painful and totally suck. But if you became a negative person, you chose that.

I would have to disagree with this. I have lost both of my parents and though i miss them every day of my life, they were both very very sick before they died and myself and all of my siblings were glad to see them no longer suffering.

SMB, I am so glad you posted this.

I think it is helping you write now to be able to keep going forward with each day.

I love you and admire your strength and pray for you everyday.

WOW,does anyone have a tissue? Beautifully said.
Tami

Ok....

I admit it... there was no almost "tearing up"... I had to shut the door to my office and take a moment to get myself together...

Thank you again SMB... You turd... you made me cry...LOL...

I needed to hear that... especially the end ... what the kids said about the souls...

It's clear that infidelity is at or near the top (bottom) as far as worst pain. I'm wondering about the perspective of children of adulterous parents and where it fits with them. The effects of separation and divorce, particularly when it involves an ugly legal battle is obviousl. But what about the infidelity itself? Like the molested child, the child of an adulterous parent is caught up in a life-changing whirlwind with absolutely no control over their situation and lacks the maturity to understand and deal with it. Does anyone here have a parent who cheated? Where did that rank on the Pain-o-Meter?

Want2, lol at the woodchipper. What a vivid description that sums up the feelings of so many BS's.

Gray, agree 100%.

Victoria, thank you for explaining; I understand better where you're coming from and what you meant.

I just have to say that if your daughter were ever molested, whether you ended up feeling more pain or not, your daughter would probably have a much better healing experience than you did, since she would be guided by a strong mom who understands the pitfalls of recovery, and would do a good job of helping her through as smoothly as possible.

Not to get totally OT here, but I think recovery from sexual abuse is much harder if the child does not come from a strong, loving family. If the abuse came from outside the home, and the family is still intact to provide security, I think that is the best case scenario. When the abuse happens inside the home, like SMB, and then the parents do not provide safety to the abused child upon finding out, that is the hardest to heal from, IMO. It adds betrayal to betrayal.

Thank you for taking the time to post what you did.

FPF, from a Christian perspective, although death is an enemy, it is not to be feared. It is not permanent.

If you have no belief in anything past the grave, I can totally see how death would seem like the worst possible case to endure. I could even see it being worse than infidelity for you.

But for a person who believes that death is not the end, and that heaven is the future home of all those who are saved, death doesn't hold the same power to hurt.

Losing my baby hurt, but I know I'll see him again.

While my DH was in his A, and it seemed like it would never end, the single thing that was hardest to bear was facing an eternity without him if he didn't change. And at the time, it didn't appear as if he ever would.

If he died now, I would be very sad, don't get me wrong, but not the same hopeless grief I felt before. I would miss him terribly, but always with the knowledge that I would see him again.

{{{{{{{{SMB}}}}}}}}}}

Amazin,

You're making me cry, blush, and crack up all at the same time....calling me a turd and all. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />


My hubby just called to remind me to start thinking about our son's graduation. Yes, I'm t/jing for a minute.

My oldest baby will graduate this year....from our homeschool...I can't believe it's happening. It seems like it was yesterday that he was sitting next to me learning to read and his face was beaming!

So, in a few months, he'll graduate from our school, with just about 2 years of college under his belt because he started community college his jr. year of high school. Ain't no way I was teaching physics, trig, and calculus!

Something really funny is this kid HATED to write. He'd cry, pout, act sick, whatever he could to get out of writing. But since mama is a writer, there was no getting out of it. (Please don't mind my grammatical errors; I just don't proof for them when I post ) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

The kid goes to college and has to take 2 writing classes for his gen ed. He gets A's in them and tells me writing ain't so bad. Huh?!

I'm lovin' it.

It's such a mom moment for me to think not only is my son graduating...but *I* taught him and he's done great at college!!!! I'm doing the SMB dance!!!

T/J over.

EXACTLY!

We know what it's like to become the unwanted pet that is discarded with the owners never looking back as they drive away.

YOU GO GIRL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, Queenie.

I hope you have a LOVELY day tomorrow, my friend!

FPF
I take offense to this statement. Who are you to criticise someones' beliefs as if you have the authority to determine the merit of their personal beliefs? Geez...sounds pretty pompous.


NO ONE here ,from what I read, said infidelity was the end of the world. The statement was "Being betrayed was worse than..." It was not "Infidelity is the end of the world for me because...". Not sure how you got to that interpretation.

Personally, I like who I am NOW, I like my M NOW, I like my H NOW. I would not go back to how it was. MB helped lots!

Okay I respect your opinion. I have watched my young niece grow up fatherless since my Brother-in-law passed away over 5 years ago. I have seen how it has affected both her and my sister, and their relationship. My brother-in-law was not sick, he was not suffering. The suffering now is in my niece who will grow up without the awesome influence of her father. I can do everything possible to be there for her but I will never take his place. To me that's more painful than what my wife has done to me, because in my eyes at least, it is affecting my niece and sister more than my (possible) divorce will affect me.

It's all a matter of perspective isn't it.

Not trying to be disrespectful here to anyone. The above are just my opinions and we are each entitled to our own.

I totally agree with you about death not being permanent. I like the Christian perspective. And from a Christian perspective we are to get our worth from our relationship with God not from earthly things, that includes our spouse. If we are to be totally devastated by the actions of another human being, we are putting too much hope and faith in that person and not enough in God. God's "Sovereign Will", will be done. So therefore nothing that happens to us on earth should be painful should it, just like you talking about not fearing death, well the infidelity also happened as part of God's sovereign will. The only thing that really matters is our relationship with Jesus Christ.

But we are not talking about "Sovereign Will" here are we. We are talking about our own "Earthy Will" and we do feel pain. It is just my opinion that my wife's infidelity would be less painful than finding out my daughter has been molested at an age where she is unable to comprehend or deal with it. Of course I pray I never have to find this out for sure.

I do not believe that we should feel no suffering if we will only bow to Sovereign Will.

Jesus suffered more than anyone else on earth, even more than those of us who have experienced infidelity. His suffering was not a violation of Sovereign Will.


And if Christ had to suffer in order to be made perfect {complete - and able to complete our salvation), then since we are one with Him (verse 11) we should expect to face suffering also.

In fact, I think the closer we come to a holy God, the more offensive and painful any sin, but especially infidelity, is to us.

To me, Sovereign Will does not mean I won't or shouldn't feel suffering or pain, but that I should always have hope in the promise that He will bring good out of tragedy.

And SMB - woo hoo and congratulations! It's almost like giving birth all over again, isn't it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I apologize. I do not mean to offend. I have no authority, and my comments where wrong. My intent was not to be pompous though it certainly came across as that.

With that being said, when my own personal D-Day happened I did question my beliefs. It lead me to a much better place and increased my spiritual faith ten fold. So I don't view questioning ones beliefs to be such a bad thing. But I do recognize that the way I expressed it was just completely a$$nine and I do beg your forgiveness for the offense I caused.


I also like who I am now, and I think MB can and has helped many people. I just didn't see the constructive nature of some of comments about it being worse than our children being molested or watching a family member die, or actually rather dying than going through it again. My bad, everyone can have their opinion and everyone's pain is valid.

It was reasoned that maybe by doing this WS's would understand more of what pain they are causing. I tend to think more BS's are coming here than WS's so arguments should be steered towards them. And IMO and it's just my opinion, nothing more, this sounded too much like a pity party for my own liking. I should have kept to myself because once i jumped in I got a little too fired up. I am beginning to learn that while I agree with the MB principles and there is some excellent advice being handed out here. I just don't necessarily fit in line with a lot of the other stuff being thrown about. Better I just go my own way in peace.

Again I truly and humbly apologize to anyone I may have offended.

PS. On a last note from my perspective this was the best response in this entire thread.

Edit in response to Neak who posted same time as myself:

I totally agree we do feel pain and are supposed to feel pain. It was argued that we shouldn't feel pain in someone else's death because there is an afterlife. I was arguing that our Earthly Will does cause us to feel pain in another's death, regardless of our believe that they may have gone to a better place.

Actually maybe I'm just not making any sense today. I know what I'm trying to say but instead I'm just pissing people off and that really is not my intention at all.

Maybe I just wasn't understanding what you meant. I think I still disagree, just a little, that it is our earthly will that causes us to feel pain. No fear is different than no pain. We aren't told not to feel sadness, but not to sorrow like those who have no hope.

Did you think I said we should no feel pain at the death of a loved one? If so, let me clarify. I have felt plenty of pain upon the death of loved ones, my baby especially, but it was not a hopeless pain.

Having a loved one temporarily held captive by death is a whole different pain (and lesser, IMO) than watching someone you love hurtle themselves along a path that ends in permanent destruction. Whether that path is infidelity, drugs, alcohol, or any other sinful thing, to me that life is worse than the death of someone I can hope to see again.

Hopefully I'm making sense, but my allergies are going downhill, and I can't be sure. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It's all good FPF.


Neak and a few others on this thread have been posting to a WH who began his thread with tones of victimhood. He wants HIS pain to be realized by his BW. I suspect this thread was to help him understand that his pain pales in comparison to hers. And unless he is betrayed in the same fashion later, he never will fully understand the devastation. His BW is also posting here, so in turn we are helping her get the understanding she needs.

Like I said FPF, it's all good. Don't go anywhere.

I am profoundly changed by my experiences as a BS. I don't like any of them.

I need a lot of them.

But I don't like any of them.

Not just him, but all the others. I have seen so many arrive here with the same attitude. I have seen the same attitude in my own H, though of course not for a long time now.

And then, a few months down the road, there is the next attitude: why can't you just get over it already?

AJ would be very frustrated, feeling as though the many efforts he made (and he did work very hard) just weren't enough. I explained to him that his efforts were what had given me a safe place to heal, and the main reason we had even gotten as far as we had in our recovery.

I told him to give me lots and lots of time, and other than that, just keep on doing what he was doing, because it was enough.

You just can't understand the length of the healing process without grasping the depth of the wound. It would be pretty rare to have someone come up to a parent a month or two after the death of their child and say, why aren't you over that already? Move on with your life. We know that a wound that dreadful requires a long time to heal.

Until understanding that infidelity is at least as bad, and often worse, people just aren't going to get why it takes so long to get past it.

I have to applaud every BS for their heroism, whether the marriage survived or not. (With special thanks to all the FWS's here, AJ included, who have done everything they could to heal the hurt they caused.)

*smiling wryly*

Bob, I know just what you mean. I needed a lot of my changes, too, even though I'm not real crazy about how I got them.

You're a good fella.

Being betrayed was worse than...

*anything I ever imagined or ever wanted to. I had no idea emotional hurt could be like this...none.

And maybe that is because it DOESN'T GO AWAY. Am I the only one, who, a full year into "real recovery", still thinks about this every waking hour of every day?

I've changed, and continue to, for the better. The pain has not. I think I've just gotten used to it, like a scar that I rub my finger across now and then. I'm coming up on three years since the first Dday.

If i ever enter 'real recovery', I'll let you know.

MarriedForever,
You are not the only one, I think about it constantly and I am coming up on one year into recovery also.
Victoria

Time for my favorite cliche:

You never get over it but you do get used to it.

My father was a serial cheater. It wasn't painful because no one ever told me it was wrong. When you are raised to not know right from wrong, it doesn't matter. Its not painful, its confusing. The divorce did hurt me very much.

Nope, almost 2 full years in and I still think about it every day.

IAD,

I am not familiar with your sitch. Is your M healing?

PF,

First off the question was being betrayed was worse than, not which would you rather have happen.

Given the CHOICE of course, I would do this again rather than have one of my children molested again. But, that was NOT question.

Now, unless you have been in this position, you could not possibly know. This is worse,,,why??? Because when my DD was molested I HAD to be strong for her, support her, and when I had days I thought I couldn't do it any more, I HAD my H there to support me, help me, be my rock, and my best friend. With this, there is no one. Not the one you turn to for all those things. Yes, you have family, friends, and of course this board, but it not anywhere near the same as having your partner there.

And just to let you know, I didn't have a choice in either situation.....

It is easy to judge when you haven't walked a mile in their shoes....

not2fun

MEDC,

Your key word there is IF.

People that experience this sort of pain do not get the choice. Have you had a child molested??? Have you walked her through the trauma of having to repeat a story she only wanted to tell once, over and over again??? Have you watched you child sit in FEAR in a court room full of strangers, having people ask her questions about what happened all the while the perp. who did this sits 100 ft. away? Have you sat in with your child, during the reoccuring nightmares???

Unless, you can answer yes to these questions, you can in No way sit here and tell me how I feel.

I've already posted this once....

During all of that, I had to be strong for my DD. I had to support her. My pain of the experience was pale compared to hers. When my pain would rise, I had my WS to help me. Do all the things a H is supposed to do for his wife during something like this. It was painful, excruciating, I wouldn't wish it on anyone. Yes, I would do dday every day, if it meant sparing my DD the trauma of her abuse.

But, picking up the pieces of my H's A??? Even worse.....because there is nothing he can do to take it back. He will not be sent to jail for 73 yrs. He broke a trust and promise more sacred than anything to me.....

not2fun

My parents fought quite a bit when we were quite young, and my mum left at least twice, but I never really knew why. It used to get us pretty upset, and I think it affected all of us in various ways (I retreated into myself, my brother found ways to be out of the house as much as possible, etc). We found ways to cope that are evident in our behaviour even today, 30+ years later.

Only recently my dad disclosed to me that he had an A (when he saw that my FWW and I were going through some really difficult times), and it had taken a long while for mum to forgive him. I didn't ask him for any details, but I now have a much clearer idea of what pain my mother must have been going through.

Funnily enough, I don't think any less of him because of his disclosure. Maybe because it was so long ago. Maybe because I saw more deep remorse for his actions in those few words he mentioned to me than I've seen in the last three years of my "under-recovery" M. Maybe I'm just numb to it all now, I don't really know.

I am not sure if this is good or bad.

Is this something I really want to "get used to"?.

It really sucks to have only two options, and both of them bite.

Welcome to MB, Justice.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. Mine is a tad different; I think this discussion has been helpful to quite a few people, myself included.

1-2 years of recovery and it is normal to still be thinking of affair stuff most all the time.

It does keep getting better.

I don't have to think about the A at all any more. Not much triggers me now. I am happy and joyful, even though life is far from perfect. My H loves me and I love him, and we protect each other now.

By 3 years, if the FWS has done the whole NC/PORH and all the rest, you should be doing well. If the FWS is not fully on board with protecting the BS, healing will take much longer, if it occurs at all.

Yes, SMB...you are correct...THIS is why the betrayal hurts so badly. Perfectly said.

Thank you for putting into words that which I felt but, until now, have been unable to articulate.

Post deleted by crayola_mb

I am both, and feel that I have not been demeaning or inconsiderate to my own feelings as either.

Each of the others who came on here has also posted only their own feelings.

Also, I have not asked for a comparison, nor do I think anyone else has. It is far more interesting for me to consider our differing viewpoints than to get out the cookie cutter and make sweeping assumptions.

Still, the similarity of response for those of us who have been in both positions, is also worth noting, IMO.

People posted how they felt about the different events that have taken place in THEIR LIVES. HOW THEY FELT!!!! It is what it is. There is no reason to take it out of context, unless you have a different agenda.

J2008, I always find it interesting when a newbie jumps into a thread in the fashion in which you have. Makes me wonder.

Well said Michelle

Neak, I am sorry that both of these events happened to you. I hope that soon, they will become just some distant memories to you.

For me it has been life altering. You feel like you are going insane. It feels like someone punched a hole in your chest, ripped out your heart and stepped on it. They leave you there with the hole in your chest and the wound is never really healed and then they make you feel like it was your fault that they ripped your heart out and stepped all over it.

I can't really compare it to death of a loved one because for me, those are two different things. That is just the way I have experienced it. I lost my grandmother years ago and I have never really recovered from that loss. She was so important to my close knit family and her loss has stayed with me and probably always will. My WH infidelity will stay with me as well, just in a different kind of way.
Both experiences are painful and dreadful to go through, for me its just that I can't compare the two because my grandmother didn't die just to hurt me, but my WH did cheat knowing his behavior is hurtful, but he still hasn't completely offered to help me heal.

I walked in on my mom giving a BJ to my god father. It ranks right up there on the pain o meter. He had the balls to show up at my dads funeral...I told him if he didn't leave immediately he would be taken out on a stretcher.

I DIDN'T tell you how you feel. I'm not even sure wher you got that from.

You do know what Pariah means, right? It means an outcast.

If his church threw him out, excommunicated him because his wife had an affair and divorced him, I really don't think you can lay that on his head saying he did that to himself.

I have some things that I would like to add to this thread, but I need to first sort out what I want to say.

Post deleted by Chrysalis

This has been more painful than dealing with the death of our infant son. I'm not saying that I wouldn't go through this to have him back. I'm just saying that it was easier to deal with.

i have not read through this entire thread but did read what medc said about dealing with molestation of ones child,etc.

although infidelity hurt (and my ex knew exactly how to hurt me. i had always told him "i can deal with a lot, but being cheated on would devastate me" and he did it to me over and over and over again with more women than i can count) and although it stays with me, it has not overtaken me. i have moved on from it where as if anyone every molested my son or daughter, now THAT would devastate me to my core and i am not sure how i would move on from that. in fact, i would probably be in jail because i would kill who ever did it, i don't care if they were a relative or stranger, they would be tortured in the most awful ways and killed!

mlhb

DITTO!

The operative word here is IF. This has not happened to you, so you assume that it would hurt YOU more. You can't know that unless it has happened to you.

For myself, I ASSUME that my son being molested or otherwise assailed would hurt ME worse. I really can't know that without it happening. I pray to God it never does. He was hurt by someone on the bus yesterday, emotionally, and I felt my heart being squeezed, and that was just with tears from him being rejected!

My interpretation of the thread was to talk about how betrayal with infidelity affected us, and how we ranked it on the pain-o-meter scale.

being betrayed IS the worse thing I've ever experienced! The unbearable pain of wondering why, what could I have done to change things. How could this person who seemed so kind and gentle and moral turn to white trash? How could this very devoted dad spend almost no time at all with his kids, and teach his kids something so immoral?

everyone might not admit it, but I'm sure most people have thought about taking their own life at some point or another during the devastatingly horrid hours they spend wondering about their future. My brother did, it's coming up on the two year anniversary of his death. His wife was cheating on him and taking his kids. We had talked in the days before hand and he promised he wouldn't do it, and then did. Right after it happened I knew people questioned why someone would do that to their kids, how could someone be so selfish, he was NOT a selfish person, when you feel that low you just want the pain to go away. I could understand the pain he talked about and I felt so sad for him. And then it happened to me. And I felt the pain first hand. I feel it often, it's heart breaking day after day. Some days are better than others. Some hours are better than others. But it is the WORST sort of emotional pain that I can ever imagine and wish there were some sort of earthly justice that could be imposed on those involved in such horrendous acts. Why should they be blissfully happy and "oh so in love" while we cry so hard it becomes hard to breathe... I know in the end they'll get theirs, I guess I just wish it didn't have to hurt so bad to be betrayed.

No, I'm not suicidal. Most days I'm actually quite content waiting this nasty affair out. Even if it ends in divorce I know I have a purpose in life and three wonderful kids to continue raising.

Thank you Enlightened Ex. I have always thought the word to mean someone who goes around hurting someone else. Like the fish. I went to the dictionary and looked it up and I was completely wrong. I appreciate you bringing the truth here.

Pariah, I am very sorry for my mistake and will try and delete that comment as I would NEVER want to hurt someone else by saying something that wasn't true or will try to make amends first.

I hope you can accept my apology.

One short comment on this. At this point, more than 4 years past d-day, I not longer THINK about my FWH's betrayal every day.

Let's say, though, that I am still aware of it. It is just sort of in the back of my consciousness.

What has changed is the way I react to the memory. I have gone from becoming physically ill, to searing emotional pain, to anger, and landed at mild annoyance.

Progress?

Who

Hey Queenie,

That's Piranna. Happy Birthday!!

Who

silent,
i understand what you are saying. i just know, for me, i am VERY sure that anyone touching any of my children, hurting them, abusing them in any way, would hurt me much more and get my blood boiling much more than infidelity did. and that would be a lot since infidelity did put me down for the count.

as far as the pain-o-meter..
well, it was more painful than a lot of things in my life. was it more painful than growing up with an alcoholic father and in the household i grew up in? i am not really sure about that. my exes infidelity brought up painful memories from my past and almost reiderated for me that i was rejectable and that i was not good enough the way i was. and that is what i grew up with.l

mlhb

The operative word for me is "KNOW" as in I know how I would respond. I have dealt with and seen enough abuse in my days to KNOW how I would respond.

SL...you may noit KNOW how you would respond to things you haven't experienced...I respect that...but don't assume that others may not.

Fair enough. I'm merely stating that I don't KNOW. I choose to believe that I would feel more devastation from my son's pain, loss and betrayal than my own.

For my sister and me both, finding out about the molestation was hard, but life very quickly went to the "new normal", with hypervigilance, tantrums and meltdowns and all the rest. It affects our everyday life even yet, often every minute of our everyday life, but very quickly reaches a level that it can be tolerated for long periods, even right in the middle of it.

Infidelity is something I would never be able to tolerate up close like that, over a period of many years.

I don't know how to explain this any better. Having your kids molested is bad, but if you're a good parent you just remove access to them, report the molestor, and go through the process to get them started on healing. It's very bad, very devastating, and all that, but very quickly reaches a bearable level. AND I have my DH supporting me all the way.

Losing our babies at birth was devastating to us. Within a 2 year and 7 month period, we suffered the loss of both daughters, plus 3 miscarriages. I also had 2 miscarriages several years earlier, and miscarried a baby boy at 14 weeks, almost 4 years after the death our our last daughter.
We do have a son and daughter, both born early in our marriage. Had we waited to have them, as both our families advised, I truly believe that we would not have any living children. I also believe that my children were a blessing in helping us heal from the loss of their baby sisters and brother, as well as the miscarriages.

I grieved for our babies for a very long time. The grief was almost crippling, but I had my other children to care for, so I had to pull myself together for them.

In time, I came to understand certain things.

Our first daughter (3rd child) died when the placenta detached itself from my uterus. It was a situation from which I could have died from hemorrhaging; however, the doctor said that the only reason I did not have any hemorhaging was because the placenta had basically dried up before pulling free. Odd in my case...because that usually is only seen in diabetic mothers, and I have never had diabetes, not even gestational diabetes.

The only way my daughter could have been saved would have been if I was already on the operating table for a C-section. With the placenta being in the process of drying up for some time before detaching, it is quite likely that our daughter suffered some oxygen deprivation. While she was physically perfect, she could have had a serious mental handicap. That would not have mattered to me, of course, because I love my children unconditionally. I would gladly have cared for her the rest of my life.

Our last daughter died from an infection of the amniotic fluid, and once labor was induced, I quickly became very, very ill from the same infection as it entered my bloodstream. The doctor said that I was very fortunate to have chosen to have labor induced, because I became ill so quickly that had I gone into natural labor at home, it could have been too late to save me by the time I got to the hospital an hour away from home.

Once she was born, it was quite clear that, even without the infection, she would have been one very, very sick little girl. At 36 weeks, she only weighed 1 lb., 12 oz. A loop of her intestines was on the outside of her body, and where it passed through her stomach, the skin had grown closed around it, creating an intestinal blockage. As a result, her growth stopped, and I'm sure that lack of nutrition probably would have resulted in her being mentally handicapped, as well. Still didn't matter to me, as I was prepared to love and care for her the rest of my days.

Even if she had lived, she would have required numerous surgeries to repair the intestinal damage, and probably could have been in the hospital for as long as a couple of years. I believe she would have suffered greatly.

I now believe that their deaths were caused by undiagnosed systemic lupus. I was diagnosed about 15 years ago.

I am grateful that none of our babies have to suffer on this earth, and I KNOW for a fact that I will see them again. With my husband's infidelities, I doubt very much that I could have been the mother they would have needed. It was hard enough with two healthy older children.

Our precious babies in Heaven are blessed in that they did not have to live through all this affair stuff.

My pain in losing them is selfish pain for myself, because I want my babies. I do still feel pain and grief over their deaths, even after 26 years and almost 24 years. Our miscarried son would be 19 years old if he had lived.

Their deaths were somethng that no one could have predicted, and it was no one's fault.

However, the fact that I will see them again and the fact that they did not have prolonged suffering is a great comfort to me, and I no longer dwell on their deaths. I just sometimes shed a few tears for what could have been, and wonder what kind of young adults they would have become.

I will post about how the infidelity affected/affects me in another post. Posting this has made me teary-eyed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

((((((Lady))))))

I am so sorry for your loses...thank you for sharing them....


not2fun

((((((((((((((LC)))))))))))))

What a painful journey you have traveled. You have my utmost respect to have suffered so, and come out the other side with such grace and beauty.

Every parent always says they would kill whomever would do such unspeakable act against their kids, but until it happens you don't know. For me, yes, I wanted to kill. But, my FIRST priority was my DD and her needs. Think about it, if someone did this to your child, and you go and do something to them that lands you in prison, WHO is going to be around to help that child heal????

I'm not saying you are wrong or right, I am just stating the facts as they pertained to me. I will state that the night she told me what had happened, my H was out. I was petrified at what his reaction was going to be. So, before I told him, I told my MIL and had her come over and we removed all my H's guns and rifles from the house, just in case......

And as far as getting "over" it, you don't. You learn, you heal and you grow, and finally you accept. I guess the part that helped me the most was the fact that we called the cops, had him arrested, and he is now in prison for the next 73 yrs., where I hear the inmates do NOT take kindly to child molestors.....so all in all, justice is served. In this infidelity mess, I am not sure there is EVER justice....

not2fun

i wanted to add to this post

* worse than the lose of two miscarried angles now in heaven. Being pregnant off and on for about 2 yrs was rough.... plays havoc on ones body and mind.

LC i am sooo sorry for your terrible loses.... you and your family are in my thoughts and prayers

in my case i do feel in ways i have had justice for my exes infidelities.

i know my ex can't stand that my life is going so well, that i am almost done my bachelor's degree and have such a good job now. i know this because, 3 years later after him leaving he is STILL trying to sabotage my life, and every single time he does it backfires on him.

i do believe what comes around goes around and i do believe that "vengance is mine sayeth the lord"

it may take time, sometimes years, but i do believe justice eventually happens.

my best revenge if you can call it that, maybe a better word is motivation, is to live my life to the fullest and not let him see that i may have ever shed a tear over him. i will have 2 side businesses going by the end of the year plus the good job i have now. i am doing very well for myself (thank you god).

as far as would i literally kill someone who touched my kids? you would have to hold me back that is for sure. but, i would never do anything that would take me away from my kids. trust me, as much as my ex and i don't get alone, we would agree on what should happen to someone who did that. my ex is a prison guard so he would make sure that whatever prison the person went to, everyone would know what they were in for. the person might as well be wearing a sign that said "child molester". THAT would be enough justice for me. to know that every single day they were in there they would experience the same nightmare over and over and over.

mlhb

LC, i too am so sorry for your losses. but you are right, you WILL see them again one day. AMEN!

mlhb

Lady C and Snuggles, a big hug and a reminder of how blessed we are to know our babies are safe and that we will see them again.

Regarding the beat up/kill the molestor or not question, try having the molestor(s) be kids. Horrible things, but the "perp" is only a 10yo boy, or 4yo girl. All the same anger is there, but without a legitimate target, and only the hope that someday the original adult molestor(s) of the junior molestors can be caught and punished.

Being betrayed was not the worst thing I have experienced.

A surprise to many, I'm sure.

Not worse than the childhood molestation, which went on for 3 years. Or the rapes. Or being beaten by my father too many times to count. I kept track of the many times only by remebering which house they happened in....we moved a lot.

Not worse than dealing with my brother's two suicide attempts, or the fact that he believed the time my dad tried to hit me with the chair happened to him. See, my life as a child was so messed up, that my brother's psyche morphed my abuse into his mind as happening to him - he so wanted to save me and couldn't stop my dad - so the only way his childish mind could save me was to believe the beating happened to him and not me. Later on, he tried to kill himself when he realized he didn't stop my dad, that I suffered and he did not save me. His own remorse, when it should have been my father's. Somehow, this pain and dealing with my brother and trying to heal this family from the brokenness was much more painful than this affair.

This all happened on the heels of the tragic death of my other brother.

Healing my FOO was like trying to repair shattered glass. The cracks will always show, it will always be fragile. And it will never be the same - and for that matter, no one would want it to be the same. It was a mess. Now, it is workable.

That kind of pain held on for years. I prayed to God to make me forget what happened. To black out my memories. God answered that prayer with a resounding "no".

The pain lasted many years.

This affair pain, it is passing in just 2 to 4 years. The nightmares are down to once in awhile, and only when I sleep. Compared to back then? They were every night, and sometimes when I was wide awake.

I count the affair as easier, on my comparison scale of pain in my life. Then again, everything is relative.



As to the question of anyone going after my kids? I cannot begin to know my reaction. Not good, I would venture to guess. I know my reaction when a child told me recently that he was being physically abused at home and I had to report it to child services. I was a complete basket case for two days. They didn't know what to do with me at work, and I had to tell the work psychologist why I was a mess. That child started talking, and I became 7 years old in an instant. So I believe I would not handle it well at all.

SB

so many tragic child hood stories.
i am a social worker, i see these things a lot.

i think you hit it right on the nose schoolbus, it is all relative. everyone will have a different answer.

i have to say, the infidelity, as awful as it was, was not the worst pain i have ever gone through. that is just ME though.

mlhb

It is just as interesting to hear from those of you where infidelity was not the worst pain. Schoolbus, you have overcome more than most people ever have to think about. But through your pain you have been such an inspiration and help to others, as well.


No matter where infidelity vs. the other events of our lives fell on the Pain-o-meter , we are ALL heroes, we are ALL wonderful, and we are ALL blessed.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

i like to believe that what doesn't kill us makes us stronger. maybe not right away, but every situation can be turned into an opportunity.

growing up as i did, with an alcoholic father who cheated a lot, and a "not very warm and fuzzy, not very affectionate" mother turned me into a very empathizing caring person thus the line of work i am in. i have a heart to help others. i feel their pain as if it is my own. i hardly ever got hugs growing up. i hug and kiss my kids so much they think i am nuts! i also tell them all the time how much i love them. i can't even remember being told i was loved when i was a child.

infidelity caused me to take a good long look AT MYSELF and what I NEEDED to change in me. it caused me to sink or swim. i chose to swim.

so many things in our life are out of our control. it is what we do with those situations that matters most.

mlhb

Hugs to all of the posters for their past hurts.

While my ex's betrayal was extremely painful to me, it was not the worse pain I can imagine. He CHOSE to leave me. It is much sadder for me when someone I love is TAKEN away.

{{{{Believer}}}}

I have no trouble at all believing you have experienced worse pain than infidelity. No question, what you have been through is worse. Your strength is amazing.