Hi All, This is my story.

My WW met her OM at work a very long time ago, in fact he was one of my friends too. We used to hang out together and generally have a great time.

Two years ago in September I found some inappropriate text messages on her cell phone from OM, I thought there was something going on and so I peeked late at night. I got the "we are friends and are just joking around line" even though I was upset, I bought it. It kept going, she learned to hide it.

In October I started secretly monitoring her E-mail messages. I figured I had to have something very damning in order for her to admit something was going on so even though what I read kept upsetting me (plans for marriage, email sex) I waited until just the right moment, and I confronted her with it. She blew up at me, "I'm in love with him and not with you" this hit me like a ton of bricks, but she decided to try and make the best of our marriage and work it out. I was told as physical as it got was 'a peck on the cheek'.

This is where I went wrong (I know that now) I decided that it was biblical to forgive OM and allow her to keep in contact. At first it was tightly monitored and controlled but it got lax after I was lulled into a false sense of security. After I caught her sneaking around yet again I insisted on seeing a counselor.

She didn't like counseling and really I did all the talking, he wasn't very good at solving our problem, he just taught me to ignore my gut feelings and believe my WW.

Fast forward to February '08, I suspected something was going on when we were out with OM and OW and I was told that OW wasn't in the know about a certain activity my WW, myself and OM did the following week. (We went fencing) This started the ball rolling.

I had a day ski-trip planned on the 1st of March. WW wasn't going because she had a girls night out planned and we wouldn't be back in time. Something told me I needed to record the days audio so I did. What I found upset more then anything I have ever heard. She was having some sort of sexual relation with OM throughout the day, several times coming to climax.

She insists that 'it might sound like we are having sex but we never had vaginal intercourse' I don't believe a word she says now. I have insisted on NC with OM, but the contact they were having was through her work email which I can't monitor at this time. I went and found SAA and I read it through in one sitting.

She doesn't know what she wants to do, she's missing OM terribly and any time I talk to her about it she is in tears. She's not willing to commit to our marriage as of yet, and I have started Plan A. I'm scared that she'll leave me, she is the love of my life and I am not hers.

I am feeling very strange at this point, I feel like I should be devastated but I'm not I haven't really even cried that much. I can't get the sounds out of my head, and WW is getting more and more distant by the day,

Thanks for reading, your prayers would be welcomed whole heartedly.

Is the OM married? Are you married?

Sorry, I am a little scatter brained.

Yes, WW and I have been married for 6 years.
OM, is married and has 2 kids.

tell his wife NOW.

mlhb

You need to KNOW that every word that comes out of your wife's mouth is a lie. She has been having sex with him all along. Believe it.

You need to make a decision about what you want to do. Get over being scared she will leave you..if she does, she does. It will hurt, you will survive. You may even decide that based on what you heard that YOU don't want this anymore.

Chances are she won't leave you...and your marriage can recover. I would suggest exposing this affair immediately to the OM's wife. She has a right to know what has happened. Also, since she is using company emails and such to keep in touch...and that this affair is work related, exposure to her workplace is called for...
NO WARNINGS of your exposure are to be given. Just do it.

Read all there is to read here and call the Harley's.

I am sorry you are in pain. This will get worse before it gets better...but it will get better. DO NOT BE A DOORMAT. She will not respect you....keep that in mind.

NRO, I'm sorry that you are here and that this is happening. This sounds a lot like the situation I'm in, except that you were smart enough to dig around while it was going on and I was too stupid to find out until 4 years later.

You'll find your answers here on this site, so keep on adding information and ask questions. I'll be keeping track of this thread as the info should help both of us.

In the meantime, keep reading your Bible and praying. Take this chance to grow closer to Him and He will give you whatever you need.

Is WW a believer as well?

Did you tell his wife about the affair?

That thought has gone through my head. I am frightened for his children more than anything should I do this. OW is not a stable person and I am not certain what she would do.

I am also not certain what this would do to my wife, I am afraid if I tell OW that she'll leave OM and that will send WW into a situation where she has an 'out'.

I know I need to do this, just not certain how. Advice?

While I agree with Balin...I think you need to realize that YOU need to be agressive and take advantage of the resources beyond Scripture that are available to you. You best course of action is to expose and call the Harley's.

Sort of the "trust in God...but lock your cars doors" concept.

Yesh, she is a believer, a PK actually.

Call OMW immediately and just calmly tell her everything that you know. She may believe it or she may not, but you are doing the right thing by telling her.

WW is going to be furious because you are hurting the chances of the A continuing. If she really wants to save the marriage, she'll get over it over time and realize what she has done.

Then, call her work and let them know. Again, do NOT give her warnings - just do it. You have to be the strong one now. If she has thoughts of staying with you, she'll see this as new strength in you to fight for what you want. She needs to see that.

How that other family or your wife deal with exposing the truth is not your concern. The truth is your best friend here...your wife will be pissed...they all are...but she will get over it.

How to do it...swift, surgical strike to those that will impact the affair the most. Family, the other BS, their employers (go to the HR department and follow up with a letter)..her parents, etc.

You can only worry about your family right now. How the other mans family handles this is not your concern.

I should have been more specific on this I'm sorry. After the first time I found out I made her switch jobs. They no longer work together, just use their work Email to communicate.

My Father-In-Law works at the same company as OM. He might be able to help me there I'll ask.

work should still be notified as they are using company resources to further their affair.

NRO, please stop enabling this affair by keeping their secret. Pick up the phone NOW and call the OM's wife and tell her. When you are done, call up your FIL and tell him about the affair. ASK FOR HIS ADVICE. You need to do this NOW.

Affairs thrive on secrecy and you have harmed yourself and your marriage by keeping this secret. That is a tactical mistake that can be corrected. CALL TODAY.

ok, it's 8am here. So I wrote this to OW in email (I have her address from my wife's email)

OW,

I hope you are sitting down while you read this. You will probably want to send the kids to another room for a few minutes.

I am sorry that I haven't told you sooner, but WW and OM have been having an affair. I caught them in the act on Saturday March 1st and even though I h
ave been told that it only has happened a few times before I don't believe them. I know this must come as a shock and you are probably raging right now. I know that you are upset believe me I know how you feel.

I would ask for my sanity and yours that you not reveal how you came across this information. Just say that you know it happened and don't let him deny it.

They use Work email to communicate and I have asked Lisa never to contact him again.

This site: http://www.marriagebuilders.com has a lot of good resources to help you and your marriage heal. The people there are very helpful.

I am so sorry to be the one that tells you, and will be praying for you and your family.

BH

Good letter, but I would remove this: "I would ask for my sanity and yours that you not reveal how you came across this information. Just say that you know it happened and don't let him deny it."

Why in the world would you tell her to not tell who told her? DO YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO HIDE? How will you take credit for this exposure if she doesn't tell him?

My friend, you are not doing anything wrong, so please do not HIDE like a COCKROACH. The OM is the one who has a need to hide, NOT YOU. You are doing a brave and manly thing, so stand up and take full credit for it. The OM needs to know you will STAND UP for your marriage!

I would also give the OMW your CELL PHONE # and ask her to contact you so you KNOW she got the email. You can also offer to answer her questions and give her evidence.

Once you send that, I would put in a call to your FIL and tell him about the affair. Ask for his help.

You are a MAN, he is a COCKROACH. Please remember that. You do not have to EVER hide like a cockroach.

Thank you, this is so hard, I'll do that.

Yes, we know it is hard. But we also know it is HARDER to lose your marriage. Interfering in her affair is the most likely thing to save your marriage. You CAN do this and we will help you through it.

This is the same as snatching the crack pipe from the crack head. He will be furious when you do it, but it is the only thing that restore him to sobriety. Your marriage can survive her anger, it can't survive an ongoing crack addiction.

Your W will be shocked and angry that you interfered with her affair. But that is ok. Her anger will die down. So, just brace yourself for it and come here and we will talk you through it.

NotreallyOK, you are getting advice from the best here In Melodylane. Follow her and you will find your way out of this!

Should I tell WW I told OMW or let her discover it on her own?

let her discover it on her own.

She will discover it very quickly on her own, I suspect. She will then call you up and make the standard threats, "I was going to work on the marriage, now I'm not," " how could you hurt the OMW like this".....blah,blah,blah, blah...... We have a list of all the standard threats, because they all say the same thing when you interfere with the affair.

Just say in response: "I am so sorry you are upset, but OMW had a right to know about the affair too." <SMILE> Don't let her ruffle you and don't try to reason with her. You cant reason with someone who uses NO REASON.

Have you informed your FIL yet? What about your MIL?

edited to add: thanks MEDC! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Not yet, I will when its a little later in the morning. I am on the west coast so it's still a bit early for a Saturday. Man she is going to be pissed.

Yep! But you can handle it! Your goal is to save your marriage by ruining her affair, not to avoid making her mad at all cost.

You are doing nothing wrong. THEY are doing something very wrong. The ones who have a right to be mad are you and the OMW, the VICTIMS.

I know, getting beyond the conflicting emotions is very tough. I hate hurting her, but she hurts me so.

It's done though, can't take back an email. (Well, I can, but its not going to happen. with this one)

NRO
this might help you. BTW you're doing good.


The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A

The carrot of Plan A


Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Stop lovebusting behaviors.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.



The stick of Plan A


Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

Not appologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financal security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.

Are you helping or hurting a crackhead when you take their crack pipe away?

When you take away the crackpipe, the only thing you hurt is the CRACK ADDICTION. It is the same here, you are only HURTING THE AFFAIR, but HELPING YOUR WIFE. You are helping your WIFE by exposing her behavior because exposure is ruinous to affairs.

She is DEGRADING herself and destroying your marriage and your mental health by having an affair. It is not "hurting" her to make her stop her destruction.

You are doing the right thing, NRO, don't allow your FEAR and your EMOTIONS to convince you otherwise. Don't allow your FEAR to take over, ok? Your FEAR is your greatest enemy. Put it aside and don't allow it to control you. That is how people lose wars.

Thanks Michele! NRO, here is the part of plan A you had previously overlooked:


The stick of Plan A


Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

Not apologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financal security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.

Thanks ML!

Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth;

Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same,

And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black,
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back,

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence;
Two roads diverged in a yellow wood, and I-
I took the one less traveled by
And that has made all the difference.

- Robert Frost

Notreally,

She's not going to be PO'd, she WILL be PO'd. It will be bad. Remember this though, STAY CALM NO MATTER WHAT. Whatever she says, just keep repeating YOUR truth, which is "OMW had a right to know...". Say it calmly, do not raise your voice, no sarcasism, just be the CALM IN THE STORM....

I did this and it works, for YOU. If she keeps after you, just walk away.

I'm sorry you are here BTW. This is the best place you can be, and heck, you have MEL here....she's one of the best on here....

You'll have lots to learn, tons of emotions to go through, this is a great place to come. The VETS here will help you to learn and grow, so that some sense will come from this whole mess.....

not2fun

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Other Man = OM
Other Man's Wife = OMW (not OW)

NRO,

Its a very good thing you are telling OMW to come here to MB to get support.

But, DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT tell your wife or the OM about this site.

And please tell OMW to not tell them either.

Thie site is your support system and safe place. Telling them about it will be nothing but a disaster as long as they are still cheating and addicted. We have seen it fail miserably countless times.

You will want to tell them, but DON'T. You cannot educate a person in the thros of adultery. Adultery is an addiction.

One day your wife will be ready to recover the marriage, thats when you'll bring her here. Not any sooner.

Jo

Sorry you're here NRO, but you are getting good advice.

Please prepare yourself for the fallout from exposure. It is necessary, and your WW is going to flip out on you. As ML said, she's going to tell you that "she was going to work on it, but that it is OVER now!" She's going to talk about how you "betrayed her!" (that one always cracks me up!) and how she "can't trust you anymore".

You need to be ready for this and NOT react to it. You stick to your guns, remain calm, and let the fallout from exposure have it effect. Do NOT apologize to her for exposure. In fact, I would tell her that "I will always, for as long as we are married, do everything in my power to oppose and interfere in your adultery." tell her as well that "I believe in our marriage, I believe we can find a way to be happy together, and I believe I have found a plan that will help us do that. That will not ever be possible while someone else is involved in our marriage."

DO NOT leave your home, no matter what she threatens or does. If someone has to leave, allow her to leave.

Truth, strength, and honesty are on your side NRO. You are RIGHT to oppose her adultery, do not let her and her wayward tricks deflect you from that.

When she starts spewing venom at you, just let her know that you will do what it takes to end the affair and preserve your marriage and family.

NRO...

Sorry you are here, but welcome! This is an awesome place to ask questions and learn what to expect at just about every turn and twist in this horrible saga. Slight relief will come at the fact that all waywards say and do much of the same things. I recently wrote a post about it...I will link it for you here...

Inside the Wayward Mind

I hope it helps. Once you get an idea of what to expect, you should practice some of Orchid's Reverse Babble to combat the nonsense that comes out of your WW's mouth. Like Mel said...no use talking sense with an addict. I am going to add her reverse babble thread to mine now...

Hang in there NRO...have strength and courage...we will help you!

(((((((NRO)))))))

She will probably say - how could you?, I was going to work on the marriage, but now I want a divorce, you're crazy, this is the straw that broke the camel's back, it is none of your business, you went about it the wrong way, and my personal favorite - I'll never trust you again.

That is mostly what they always say. Feel free to add more.

Still no call from the OMW, I don't know how often she checks her email so it might not be until later on. (She could be raging like I did when I first found out too.)

FIL & MIL are out for the day, I don't have their cell # so I left them a message, hope they call back and I can get away for long enough to talk to them.

Any way you can call her? It will alleviate your uncertainty, which is for me at least worse than not knowing.

I don't have her number, I know her email and where she lives I could go over but I don't want to interrupt anything. If I haven't heard by the end of tomorrow I will pay a visit on Monday.

WW found MB.com all on her own today. (We have separate computers) and was reading the articles on infidelity. She hasn't come to the forums as of yet.

Well, she will get good information from the site, but it will limit how much help you will get, because she could be reading your posts.

She hasn't it the forums yet, and I don't think she will. I am hoping she'll pick up the copy of SAA I have on the coffee table.. /pray

Oh, and I do Network Security for a living so I'll be able to tell if she's trolling the forums for info.. ;-)

Update:

Never heard from OMW yesterday. It's now 4am.

WW had a breakdown last night. She doesn't know what she wants, and is talking separation. Says Divorce is an option which is nothing like herself. Was talking about OM, and how she can't make up her mind to commit to fixing our marriage and can't bear not to be with OM. If he divorces she will run, which has got me scared to death.

She outright said she doesn't want to destroy the lives of OM's 2 daughters. It's sad that she already has.

If she leaves does that mean I am in 'Plan B'? Where do I go? I feel so lost.

you need to go and see other man's wife.

ow's husband never came and told me anything until almost a year later. if he had told me sooner i could have done something to help end it.

now my ex lives with that same ow.

tell her today

mlhb

NRO, call the OMW today and tell her. Afterwards call your MIL and FIL and tell them. The affair is on the ropes and you can help kick it down the stairs.

I would suggest calling the OM's house and disguising your # with *67 so he cant see the caller ID. If the OMW answers, tell her about the affair and tell her to check her email.

NRO,

No, if she leaves, you are STILL in Plan A. Plan A is easier if the couple is still living together but possible even if they are separated. Read, read, read on Plan A and ask questions!

If you have the name and address on the OMW, you should be able to also get a phone number using one of the many internet searches. Have you tried that?

I have the name and address, but they (like us) only have Cell Phones which are generally not listed in those search engines. I have additional resources available to me at work that I can use but at this point I am going to go to OMW's and see if she is home.

If OM's car is there I won't knock and just wait until tomorrow.

WW told me this morning that she read through chapter 6 of SAA last night. (I was so exhausted I fell asleep before her) When I asked her what she thought she said "He's really smart." I should be seeing FIL/MIL at church today.

I'll read more about Plan A. Thanks for all your support, it helps. Its so hard to keep a straight face when I am talking to WW sometimes.

NRO, if you can restrain yourself from punching him out, I would knock on the door whether he is there or not.

NotReallyOK:

I would suggest that you hold off from further exposure for a while. Massive exposure can be successful for ending an affair---but it can also be equally successful in ending your marriage.

With regards to Plan A and where your wife is right now, I would suggest that you make a call to the Harley's (888-639-1639 for appointments), and set up an appointment with them soon to help you formulate a plan. Your wife certainly sounds pretty conflicted, and if she's visited this site and realizes some of the wisdom---she'd probably be receptive to Steve Harley (or Jenn) talking with her regarding steps to make your marriage great.

It's much better if you can get her involved in talking with them, because they can do the education of your spouse (it's a lovebuster for you to take that role), they can help with no contact, and they can help with necessary exposure. Steve treats exposure as a surgical necessity (exposing in a difficult situation where it will do more help than harm to the marriage)---not as a first pass all out attack on an affair.

Even if your wife will not join you, you'll get a great deal of benefit in talking with Steve or Jenn. They'll help you get your plan together, explain the strategy to you, and make sure that you've got the support and advice that you need.

Good luck.

NRO...I would ignore that advice and continue your exposure.
Dr. H is VERY clear about the power and need for exposure on this site.
If you wish to recover your M and not live with this stuff for year after year, exposure is your best tool.

NRO, I would have to disagree with K's advice, and strongly encourage you to expose this affair. Exposure does not end marriages as he suggests, but AFFAIRS DO. Exposure is a tried and true tactic that is very effective in ending affairs or hastening their deaths.

In this case, it is highly doubtful that the OM will leave his wife and children and will not want the trouble. I also seriously doubt that her father will appreciate his EMPLOYEE carrying on an affair with his own DAUGHTER. You have a POWERFUL WEAPON in your hand against this affair.

The OM's wife and your W's FATHER have a right and a NEED to know about this affair NOW.

By keeping their secret all this time, NRO, you have ENABLED the affair. You enable the affair at your own expense.

Stick to tried and true advice from DR HARLEY and don't allow any naysayers to divert you from your path. K means well, but his advice is very inappropriate and ill-advised for your situation:

[quote]"But remember to expose your husband's affair to the light of day. Don't hide it from anyone, including your children. Transparency is like chemotherapy. Hopefully, there is someone who is talking to your husband about the tragic decisions he's making, and can influence him to change course."

Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.

NRO:

Actually, if you have Surviving an Affair, you can read about exposure there. There is one reference to who you must expose to---and that is, to your spouse.. You will find the same information on this site in an article and in one of the letters in the Q&A section.

What you won't find is any other advice about a 'tsunami' of exposure, nor will you find universal advice to expose to the OP's spouse, to people at work, to parents, in-laws, etc. Why won't you find that advice??? Because it's not part of the general Marriage Builder's philosophy of dealing with an affair. It never was, it never has been. If MEDC would be so kind as to cite his reference, I'd be happy to defer to the good Doctor himself.

Surgical exposure may be effectively used to end an affair---but that advice is best given by a professional who is helping you with managing your Plan A. I believe that MEDC and I agree on one thing---a call to the Harley's is most appropriate, and will be the single best decision you make in dealing with your wife's affair.

Just an FYI, the concept of exposure COMES FROM THE HARLEYS. Nowhere do they EVER suggest that one must get "counseling" with them to expose. It is not a manufactured concept of the board members:


Nor does Steve require that one call him for counseling in order to EXPOSE. Exposure does not "harm marriages." As Steve told me PERSONALLY TO MY FACE, exposure should be suggested on this forum. He stated that *IF* he is counseling personally with a couple, he may choose to speak to the wayward FIRST - and THEN encourage exposure. But if any changes, delays are made, it is at STEVE's prerogative, not ours. Since you are not in counseling, there is absolutely NO REASON to delay.

Stick with Dr. Harley's advice, NRO. He has been at this for a very long time and knows what he is doing.

p.s. Dr. Harley *IS* a "professional."

Hi Melody,

Do you have a link to Dr. Harley's quotes above? I've never been able to find that on the site. But yes, not only *is* he a professional, he's *the man* as well...

With regard to Steve, I was discussing this exact issue with him a couple weeks ago. While he has no problems with exposure to the wayward spouse, and will do exactly as you suggest (talk with the WS for a while, and then the BS)---he definitely does not endorse an all out exposure to the entire nation as a first approach.

I did care enough to call him to see if the methodology had changed since I counseled with him (10+ years ago). It really hasn't---Steve only recommends exposure to other members (friends, family, coworkers, OP's spouse) as a specific tool to end the affair, and it very much is a situational exposure.

It's that reason why I would suggest that NRO call the Harley's first. He loses nothing with a few days delay---but if his wife is near the 'break point' with the affair, he may help to push her into the arms of the OM. That's not catastrophic, but it could cause extra work...

[edited for abuse of the English language...]

No one here is advocating this. Your exposure to the OMW and OWH is NOT the entire nation.



This almost seems humourous to me. The WS already KNOWS he's having an A. WT?.....

Ok so where is the problem again?

K, I also discussed this with Steve FACE TO FACE last May, 2007 and as he explained, we should continue to recommend exposure as we have been doing on this forum. If a member is in counseling WITH HIM, *HE* may recommend a different strategy. Or he may NOT. It is HIS prerogative to change tactics. NEVER EVER has he said that one must get "professional" guidance to expose an affair.

Nor is there any reason, whatsoever, that he should DELAY exposure. Exposure to the OMW and the FIL is well advised.


And no one here is recommending "an all out exposure to the entire nation as a first approach." If you had read this thread, the recommendation is to expose to the OM's WIFE and the WW's father, which is appropriate. That is hardly "an all out exposure to the entire nation as a first approach."

Dr. Harley has NUMEROUS posts about exposure on the MB Weekend forum in addition to recommendations to do the same on his radio show. As you well know, the concept of EXPOSURE came from DR HARLEY.

I suspect that K has not read this thread and does not understand, which would explain his stance.

K, just to bring you up to speed, he is being told to expose to the OW's spouse and the WW's father, who is also the OM's employer.

Those are very appropriate and necessary exposures, and could hardly be considered "an all out exposure to the entire nation as a first approach."

Mel
I've been down with the flu and thought maybe my falculties were going. LOL

NRO...I hope you can see from the above quote that noone here is suggesting you get on television and expose to everyone. We suggested the OMW, because she has the RIGHT to know the truth about her life. She can also be very important to the ending of the A. We suggested you FIL and MIL. Um, last time I checked, that was NOT "the entire nation." Good grief!

Exposure is a TOOL to end the A. Dr. Harley refers to affairs being an addition. Just like with any addict, if they have been confronted, and asked to stop the drug use, but are too far gone and weak to do so on their own, what is the next step? INTERVENTION! Exposure is like an intervention to the WS, where the closest members of the inner circle can come together to confront and help the WS end the A. While it is true that once this happens, if the WS continues to do the wrong thing, PLan B is absolutely necessary (Dr. Harley says it is necessary in 85% of cases).

But exposure is your number one tool. USE IT! The number two tool is to leave her to live with the reality of her choices. Nothing is foolproof, but Mel is absoutely right in the course of action you should take!

Hi Mel,

No, I did read the thread, and understand it quite well. I'm always concerned on this forum that newcomers are told to 'expose' without having a full understanding of the ramifications of exposure, and having the support and guidance to get through it. Exposure is a very specific tool in the MB arsenal to end an affair.

You said:

Well, you might want to give him a call and check again. Because he might have misunderstood you---and this is one reason I discussed it in detail with him a couple weeks ago over the phone. If I'm going to hang around here, I have wanted to get some clarity around the strategy of exposure as it relates to an affair. I don't like giving advice contrary to the MB methodology here, and although I've been through the counseling myself, it was 10 years ago and I was concerned that some of my knowledge was out of date. I'm always up for learning some more.

In regards to this affair, I would suggest (as always) that NRO seek counseling, and try to get his wife involved. If she can get to the point of writing a no-contact letter to the OM, I think that would be a perfect time to let the OM's spouse know what's been going on as well. WW's father may or may not be appropriate---I personally would not do it if the WW could turn this around in a reasonable timeframe (and I bet that would be the SH advice).

It's a shame that the rest of the boards aren't open to the general public---because if Dr. Harley has changed his stance since he and Jennifer wrote SAA, it would be very helpful for him to write an article to update the general site. I suggested that to them several months ago, but didn't hear back---which is what prompted me to call Steve...

And Michele, you faculties aren't going---but the first and only exposure that is recommended in Surviving an Affair is letting your spouse know AFTER you've discovered the affair. So yeah---it's a 'duh' in this case...

Good luck NRO---regardless of what your decision is around this. Remember that Plan A is to negotiate an end to the affair without disrespectful judgements, angry outbursts, or selfish demands---it's an attempt to make the marriage a safe, attractive place that your wife would have hope for the future.

It would be interesting to hear more about this subject. All I know is that I've seen 100's of affairs end within a week or so after exposure to the other BS.

Many WS's want the marriage and the affair, and when the marriage is threatened, they end the affair immediately.

Thanks for providing that reference and FIRST hand experience. It is good to hear this stuff from someone in a truly recovered marriage.
Of course, YOU must have been the one to misunderstand the advice given to you face to face...and which is supported by the references you cited.
I have to say that when it comes to sources of knowledge on this forum, Mel seems to be the best ...even if she is a silly Texan.

Thanks for your post, K, however, I think it is you that has misunderstood exposure because the advice you give is nothing close to what Dr Harley has said or written. [you can read his posts yourself] Nor is it what Steve Harley told me personally. It is not even close to what you admit Steve said himself:


And no, Steve does not ONLY recommend exposure to that group, he has told members to expose at work and recently told a member, Leeno, to PLACE SIGNS about the affair at the OM's place of business. He told another member to "do everything short of taking out a billboard."


More importantly, Steve or Dr. Harley has NEVER said that one needs to get professional counseling to expose an affair to my knowledge. NEVER. And I have discussed it with BOTH men. [Dr. Harley on the phone, Steve in person] While counseling is always immensely valuable, it is certainly not a requirement. This forum is intended for folks who cannot or do not choose to get counseling. Some can, some can't. But it certainly is not a NECCESITY. Many of us here have recovered marriages and have never paid for counseling. [My DH and I counseled with a local MB coach and then attended a MB weekend, which was extremely valuable]

K, I have long detected a personal bias against exposure in your posts, and I suspect it stems from your misunderstanding that exposure is HARMFUL to marriages. It most certainly is not. Exposure is harmful to the AFFAIR, not the marriage. We would be doing newcomers a grave disservice if we did not tell them about this valuable tool. I, for one, pledge to continue making sure they know about it.

Well, I am not going to step in the middle here.

OMW wasn't home, and didn't look like she had been home for some time. I am wondering if she got the news and left.

I just spend the afternoon with WW on the floor in front of me sobbing. She decided to leave for a while, took her bible and SAA with her so maybe she'll read more who knows.

FIL/MIL know, I saw them at church today and they prayed for me. WW was in child care. FIL is going to look into who I contact at OM's place of employment and get me policies etc.

I am going to call the Harley's, and I have an appointment this week with a friend of mine who's a psychologist.

WW may be on her way to see OM if he's back in town. (I don't know that he is, but he might be) Sticking to Plan A.

NRO

NRO,

Welcome to MB, I'm sorry you’re here. Aside from the snipping that happens, it really is a good place. One of the things that is HIGHLY recommended before someone participates on this forum is to read through all the basic concepts. Not sure of you were able to do that or not. But if you can read through them first (if you haven't) it will help you navigate through differences of opinion here. if you have great.

I'll tell you about how I used exposure in my situation. It worked well for me. I exposed to only a few people, those that I knew my W would listen to and help support her and me. My parents, and a few at our church. Our church handled it extremely well. As did my parents.

I knew that if I had hit her with a tsunami, the embarrassment (while some here would say she deserved it) I believe would have been too much for her. If I had done it that way, there would have been nowhere she could go where she would not feel ashamed.

I was more concerned with saving my M, than I was in feeling powerful in the situation. I exposed to who I needed to expose to as it was necessary. I firmly believe that had I done the “tsunami” exposure, my W would not have felt like she could have gone anywhere.

Now, this worked for me. Will it work for you? I don’t know. I think that is why K is suggesting that you get a plan from Steve before you go forward with any more exposure. You need to know what to do after the light is on the A. Mel is right, it's not a requirement; but sometimes it a pretty good thing to do.

What do you think the “tsunami” will do to your W’s spirit? What do you think it will do if you show a little restraint in exposure and she later finds out that you had the power to totally and completely crush the A and you chose to exercise a little grace and mercy so she could retain some dignity?

Exposure will kill an A, over-exposure can kill a recoverable M.

I give you my experience because it’s hard for anyone to argue with what happened in my M. Hope it helps. I'm glad you are trusting God in this.

My W and I celebrate 25 years this year and we are quite happy.

In His Arms.

S&C

I don't think one person one here suggested exposing to anyone that couldn't impact the affair....someone that would be able to offer pressure or influenece. What's the tsunami stuff???? K's suggestions are inconsistent with what is written on this site and what ML has stated in regards to her conversations with both Dr. H and Steve. No one is suggesting OVER EXPOSURE. Affairs kell marriages...exposure kills affairs.

Thank you S&C.

One of the reason I haven't been super aggressive is just that, the exposure would totally kill WW's spirit, and make her not want to be around me at all. (she is already feeling so tired, confused and mistrustful)

FIL/MIL will help, even if they just pray for me. and OMW needs to know so she can start to heal. I am going to tell my therapist but will wait to talk to they Harley's before I do more.

M

You're welcome.

Blessings.

S&C

NRO, I regret the dissension on your thread. It really is a shame that a simple and standard defensive measure like exposure to a OP spouse has to be defended on the forum of the very psychologist who coined the practice. Many ppl here would not be married today if they had not exposed.

I agree you don't have to be super aggressive in exposure, but no one has suggested any such thing on this thread. I think that exposing to the OMW and your FIL is sufficient for now, just as was suggested.

Exposure, however, does have a TSUNAMI effect no matter how it is done. That is inherent and can't be avoided.[unless one is exposing to the janitor in the WS' office building or some other useless "exposure"]

What does have to happen, however, is exposure to the OM's wife and to key family members. In your case, your FIL and MIL, mainly because the OM works for your FIL.

I think its a great idea for you to get coaching with Steve Harley. He can assess your situation and hopefully, bring your wife back into the fold.

Will your in-laws have a discussion with your wife and do what they can to bust up the affair? Will your FIL speak to the OM since they work together? Dr. Harley advocates causing "as much conflict as possible" in the affair. That might be a great opportunity for your FIL to inflict some conflict.

NRO: this exposure debate really is unfounded. Exposure is a very valuable and effective tool. Do not be afraid to use it, esp with OMW! She is going to quite likely be your strongest leverage point in this situation, and even if she is not, she still deserves to know.

The point of exposure is not to punish your WW, it is to end the A. Sometimes the WS views it as punishment, but that is unavoidable and sometimes a price the BS must be willing to bear to give thier M a chance to recover.

There really is no reason for a controversy regarding you exposing this to OMW or your FIL. Those are quite reasonable targets in your situation in my opinion. I think as well that calling the Harley's for advice is always good advice, but if you aren't going to do that, I think you should feel pretty comfortable with the idea that this exposure you're planning falls well within the MB plan scope.

ML My FIL will probably talk to OM yes. I am not certain though but will talk to him about it. FIL/MIL were very supportive of me, they prayed for us and will continue to do so.

WW and I had a good conversation when she got back from her outing last night. I'm not certain if she saw OM or not but it wouldn't surprise me if she did. She is still struggling with staying or leaving, but last night she said she was leaning more towards staying. However that varies from day to day. She did mention that over the past week she has gained a lot more respect for me.

She's still reading SAA. She understands what she has is an addiction but said to me 'I'm not certain all addictions are wrong, you wouldn't be upset if I was addicted to you.' to which I responded with the definition of addiction that I have heard 'and addiction harms yourself or others and you do it regardless of the consequences. If you were addicted to me you wouldn't be causing harm, so you wouldn't be addicted technically' she took that pretty well.

I have an appointment with my therapist friend today. I think it will be good to talk about all of this, to someone who isn't involved.

Does anyone have any samples of letters I can send to HR departments.. I am at a loss here.

NRO, does he not work for your FIL? I will post a sample exposure letter to HR, but your most powerful exposure will be to the OMW. That might kill the affair immediately with 2 people watching from both ends. I doubt the OM will want the trouble. When you speak to the OMW, I would also let her know that your wife's parents have been informed so she can pass that onto the OM.

Here is a sample exposure letter to HR from a board member who is a corporate attorney: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...e=0&fpart=2

Is your therapist experienced AT ALL in infidelity? Most ARE NOT, NRO, and actually cause more harm than good.

Thanks,

Yes he does work with my FIL, I just want to be prepared as my FIL works in a support department and OM works in another.

My therapist is a close friend of mine, and he is very experienced with Infidelity. I am relying on SAA/Harley's for advice with the affair, I just need someone to talk to, cry with and start to heal myself. He is a close friend and I trust him.

Just got back from my therapist, what a great relief to be able to talk to someone who is not involved directly or indirectly. He didn't give me any advice I didn't already have, but did encourage/reaffirm and prayed with me for WW and myself and our marriage.

I'm feeling pretty good right now, which is better then I have felt in about a week.

I went to try and see OMW on lunch. One of her neighbors was outside and said she left in a hurry with the kids on Saturday, and hasn't been back since. I would assume that means she knows, and has reacted in my opinion poorly but I don't know for certain so I will keep trying.

Sounds like she DOES know. Maybe one affair is her boundary.

Good deal, NRO. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Were you able to get an appt with Steve Harley?

Good work man!

That's gonna cause a big [censored] in OM's world!

I have to say I am sorry you are here but you have been given great advice. I am going to disagree with your above statement. I think his wife is reacting fine and it may benefit you.

If his wife does know and is pissed well he is going to have to expend a lot of energy kissing some serious butt. You did the right thing by informing her of the affair.

Another thing never and I mean never accept blame for telling her about the affair. Your wife will blame you for that. She is sleeping with her husband she was the one who is to blame.

I guess there seems to be two kids of people. The people that want to remain married at any cost and those that do not. His wife may not know what she wants but he may have to dump your wife if he hopes to see much of his kids.

Also he is sleeping with your wife with no consequences before how was that working for you? If you would have done nothing he would still get to sleep with your wife and there is nothing you could do about it. It would just make the two of them closer but now he might dump your wife.

If you can get him to dump your wife you can have a chance to save your marriage if you choose. Stop being a doormat. I feel bad for people like you who after catching their spouse they continue to cheat. Another thing your wife has been sleeping with this guy a long time count on it.

My XWife denied her affair until I showed some of the video of them together. Now in her case we had talked years earlier and both agreed that if one of us slept with another person that we would divorce the other. I know she lied because she probably did not want to divorce. What I am getting at is she will be lying to you about what she has done count on it. We are divorced because I decided too and when my wife thought she was going to lose me she turned into a different person, a better person. Didn't change my mind but for me being a doormat would have made things worse.

Good luck, this stuff really bites.

I am struggling right now. I am trying to give WW some space to figure out what she wants to do. She says she's leaning towards staying with me, but she also said that "doing the SAA recovery stuff with OM would be easier" that cut to the bone.

Hurt once again.

NRO,

This is fogspeak/wayward babble. I advise you to learn about it and learn to guard your heart against it. Also, when this happens, DO NOT RESPOND TO HER until you learn Reverse Babble (it's somewhere on here....I'll try to find it...). Also, come on here to do the venting....it keeps you from Love Busting her and helps you to get it out.

You are still early/new at this, so keep your chin up. You are getting some of the best advice around...( <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />..ya I'm talking to you Mel....), so don't worry. Some days it will seem hopeless, and others, you will feel like a million bucks...

Take it from me...I'm a BS only 3 1/2 months removed from Dday, and just NOW finally got my Plan A down good. I'm gearing up for Plan B. Post here often. It'll will help in SO many ways.....trust me....I'm pretty sure I would be in D court by now if I hadn't taken the steps to post here and get help.

Keep your chin up and chest out....

from one NOT to another....

not2fun

ps...I bumped up the "BS be still" thread....this will help you in your situation....it took me awhile to "get" it, but once you do,,,,its amazing....

NRO,

ok, I found the Babble thread. I bumped it for you (not really computer literate...not sure how to link threads yet....). Anyway, it is titled "Orchid...tell us how you Babbled back"....this will help you. It will also show you how "unoriginal" the WS's are....

not2fun

n2f thanks,

Some other things were said last night, being scared about OM getting a divorce and WW just running off I said some things I shouldn't have but I am learning.

My self worth right now is absolutely in the toilet. However I was told that OM probably won't get a divorce, that likely OMW will threaten and move out for a couple of weeks. (I think she already has) She is psycho and I am concerned for WW's safety.

WW found out today from OM, and she wasn't as pissed as I thought she would be. She has been reading SAA, but she's in deep depression (can't eat much, having problems sleeping) but doesn't want drugs to help.

I am normally a very patient person, I'm having a lot of trouble and anxiety with this however. I so disparately want WW back, but she's so infatuated with him that she's not thinking straight. She told me that "you were meeting all my needs before this started" and I just nodded, I don't think she understands that I couldn't have been.

NRO, her infatuation will go away once contact ends. And contact will end sooner if you disrupt the affair and cause as much conflict as possible. That means having your in-laws speak to her. That means getting ahold of the OMW. That means confronting the OM and asking him what his intentions are.

Why is she so upset? Has the OM dumped her?


Ask her to not say such hurtful, cruel things to you. She must be told how hurtful this is to you, NRO.

Thanks ML, I am certain the OMW knows now, OM sent an text to WW saying so. OMW isn't helping at the moment however, she's still raging and is likely to do so for a bit of time. OM not seeing his kids though may take it's toll.

I don't think the OM has dumped her as of yet. When I ask why she's so upset it's because she misses OM. I have asked (demanded at the time actually, but that was a mistake I made in my rage) that she not contact him. I think she's trying, but I don't believe she is doing a great job at it.

What she is trying to 'decide' is if living with the thought of never seeing him again is ok. It's the whole soul-mate WS babble thing that is so hard to get through. My therapist told me yesterday that I was doing right, and to give her a little space and time. (Stick to Plan A)

As far as hurtful things, WW has always been a bit vindictive. She goes on the offense as a defense mechanism and anything that she can use to hurt she will. I am surprised she isn't the one in my shoes after reading what I have actually.

I haven't been sleeping well, but have been trying to be back in bed with her before her alarm goes off each morning. This morning was the first since D-Day that I felt she actually was happy waking up next to me.

She told me last night that it was ok if I needed to have sex with her, that she understands it's one of my needs. I said thanks, but I have been holding off because it's not as enjoyable to me if she's not involved too. (AKA, I don't want a live love doll I want my wife)

This has been emotionally draining, it was really good to talk to someone yesterday, and you all have been great. I will talk to FIL/MIL about talking to WW, I imagine they will without me asking the next chance they get. I have grown terribly weary of the "everything's ok" charade over the past 2 years. It's time to break the glass.

NRO, I agree with giving her a LITTLE TIME, but you should give her NO SPACE. That will only harm you. In order to rebuild love you will have to be close to her, not apart. Your job is to cause as much conflict as possible in the affair. The more conflict, the faster it will die.


When she says this, tell her: "I am not willing to stay in a marriage with 3 people. It is much too painful. Our marriage only has room for 2 people."



Agree it is time to break the glass. Pretending everything is ok has only ENABLED her affair. Your FIL could have a powerful impact on this affair if he would speak to your W and the OM. Does your W know yet that her parents know? If your FIL does not speak to her real quick, I would make sure she knows they know.

I agree that you should really investigate what your FIL might be able to do to help. Since he's in the same company, he might know just the right person to talk to to bring pressure on OM. This could be much more effective than a letter to the HR dept.

Perhaps your FIL is friends with OM's boss? Or even further up the chain? Such a friend might not appreciate hearing that OM is messing with his friends daughter and participating in destroying a family.

WW knows FIL/MIL know something is up. I don't think she knows they know entirely. (I have told her that I told them just not certain that it sunk in).

She may be trying to avoid the issue, I have suggested she go talk to MIL several times and she gives me the same WS babble I have been getting for a week. ("if I go talk to her and I get a divorce I will feel really bad") She is so horribly lost right now I don't know how much is getting through to her.

Most of what I am doing is just Loving her trying to not do anything to her to make her angry. (Which includes 'controlling' her..) and trying to completely avoid Love Busters.

I am also trying to make sure I do the things I know OM can't. (I cook dinner all the time, he can't cook etc.)

I am still having a tough time this morning. WW was so affectionate this morning, but when I say that I liked it/it felt good she completely ignores me.

I am starting to think she feels guilty for having feelings for *ME* and not OM. Like she is already married to OM and I am the one she is having an A with. It's so weird the way her mind seems to be working right now.

I have this sinking feeling that with OMW out of the house for a while that they will start to see each other much more regular. Scares me to death, and frustrates me that the OMW isn't doing anything at all.

NRO,

Lets make this easy on you....here are the 3 rules to Plan A

1. meet any EN's WS will allow

2. Advoid Love Busters (do you know what these are??? This was actually more important in my case than meeting the EN's....you stated that she said you were meeting her EN's before this...Maybe your biggest problem was controlling your love busters....read up on those...)

3. NO EXPECTATIONS...

You are still pretty new at this, so you will make mistakes. You are only human. If you keep these 3 rules in your head it makes it easier to remember....

And keep re-reading the "Be Still"...my Plan A didn't really start to soar until I learned this trait. I can't remember how long ago DDay was for you, but if it was recently then it is harder to "be still". YOur emotions and the pain is still pretty raw....but you'll get, and when you do its like a light switch going off...

Keep up the good work...oh and advoid all marriage/relationship/affair talk. It's too draining for both of you....

not2fun

Yeah, D-Day has been a little over a week. "Be Still".. is very hard. I had to go for a drive last night after I had a small outburst that I shouldn't have had. I apologized and said I would be back in an hour and went and cooled off. Raw doesn't even start to describe what I am right now.

I am avoiding the A talk as much as I can. WW is reading SAA so sometimes it's a little tough when she wants to ask questions, or make a statement. She came home yesterday and flat out told me "if I stay I want to get a Dog" I just said ok. but the "if I stay" stuff is what hurts the most.

ARe you agreeable to a dog? Did she get your agreement?

I am, it's something we have been talking about for a long time. I would love one, and have been wanting one for several years.

I did agree, I just don't know if it really sunk in. She's not herself (as you all know). She keeps saying that she's leaning towards staying, but it looks like it pains her so, I am being strong and it's tough for me to not be emotional when she is hurting. (I am one of those types of guys, very devoted to my wife and hurt when she does regardless of what causes the hurt.. I'm growing through it a bit though)

Where would she go and why would she go? I would not let her know that you are so scared of her leaving or she will use that knowledge to manipulate you. Do you know that?

You have very good points there ML. Deep down I know she's saying these things to hurt me/punish me I guess. They do hurt but I am not letting them punish. I keep yelling at myself YOU DID NOTHING WRONG! and it seems to work most of the time.

If she goes to FIL/MIL OM definitely won't be welcome, and she'll probably catch flak every time she leaves the house. The only other place she could go would be a Hotel, but I don't think she would go there for long.

Thanks for being so tough on me. I need it.

The next time she threatens you with leaving, tell her that you will understand if she feels a need to leave even though you don't want her to leave. But let her know that HER leaving might be the BEST OPTION for you if she canno end her affair because your marriage cannot survive 3 people. Tell her you cannot live with his HURT for much longer.

This affair has been going on now for almost 2 years, NRO. That is a very long time to endure this abuse from her. I would let her know that this cannot last. It is probably a good idea to start investigating plan B, a seperation, if she will not end her affair.

ALSO, say something to her liek this: "I know you have been thinking about moving out, what did you have in mind exactly?"

See, I think that a frank discussion about this might shine some much needed REALITY into her foggy thinking. If you start talking about SPECIFICS, ie: how will she pay for a place, etc it might wake her up a bit. Be sure and let her know that you a) won't be her "friend," [you are her HUSBAND, after all] and that you won't FINANCE her move.

She needs to know that you will not make it EASY and you won't just lay down and be her "friend" if she screws you over.

She's already had a Dog....OM!

bwahahahahaaa! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

LOL, you are right. She has had a dog.

Finances for her aren't a problem, we both work and make very good money so the financial angle won't work, but the practicality might, being cut off from her family and friends probably will too. (Her family won't support her in a Divorce /remarry they will not approve)

NRO,

I know its hard, it took me about 2 1/2 months before I got that one, but once you do it is easier...(read up on my thread, you'll see...). Now, in my defense, I didn't get SAA until about 1 week after Dday and didn't start posting until @ a month later, though I was "lurking"...

This is all new, so I expect you to not get it all....don't worry, just keep posting, reading, and taking it all in. It'll get a little easier....

not2fun

She hasn't left. Work Plan A, and take care of yourself. You're a week into D-day on a two year affair. I am generally all for an agressive approach, but I think the best thing you can do right now is nothing. You've got two very powerful exposures working, and a WW who has reality crashing down on her.

Snoop carefully, and step back and let the exposure and Plan A do thier work for a bit.

Zen NRO.

OHMMMMMM
OHMMMMMM

Tyk, his initial D-Day was November 2006. He has been dealing with this affair for over 2 years now.

NRO, are they still working together? Did I initially misread that?

They are not, after the first D-Day I made her switch jobs.

The ice is starting to crack very little. When she started her babble last night I just said 'ok' and went on with life. That seemed to stop her in her tracks.

We talked some about HNHN because I was reading it and she had questions. But nothing about the A or OM. I still don't have a NC commitment from her but her language has started to change. Still more talk about a Dog, but a lot more 'our' and 'we' instead of I. (There is still a lot of 'I' there)

I think Tyk is right, I haven't just let things simmer and seep in. WW is very combative when confronted, she can be vindictive and very impulsive. I think by just letting her process, and talking when she wants to talk things will eventually come out.

I made a lot of mistakes after the last D-Day. Not telling the OMW was a huge one, (not really telling anyone was a huge one) and letting the contact go on was the other. This time I am doing it right and I am going to give the process a little time.

ML I'm not going to let her see me scared anymore, I think you're right and that just shows her she can manipulate me which I am not going to be a doormat any longer.

Tyk and N2F I am working Plan A, for *ME*. Getting my workouts in generally feeling better, keeping the house clean which helps my mind.

I have been reading HNHN and see where I screwed up, starting to try and fix that whenever WW lets me. Dr. H is very smart. I wish I discovered him the last time I was going through this. Our MC (not the same guy I go to for IC) really screwed things I think.

Thanks for all the advice, we'll see what the light of day does to this A, and hopefully I will hear from OMW rsn.

Well, last night was interesting. More of the fog babble but at least I handled it right.

"It's hard to want anything from you right now" - <smile><nod>

"If I stay what do you want from me?" - "NC with OM, Recovery Steps"

I am going to have some minor surgery soon. I got "when you have surgery I will take care of you, I owe you for when you took care of me" - "No, you don't. but, Thank You"

And on and on. I have not brought up the A for quite a few days. I think I am mastering the 'be still' concept. WW is starting to joke a bit every once in a while. I think she's wavering but its so hard to watch her struggle. I care about her so much and hate to see what she's going through.

Talked to my therapist friend again yesterday for quite a while he is very encouraging to me.

oh, one more add.

I think she may feel guilty for being with *ME*. Like she's cheating on OM or something. It's weird, she really is an alien right now.

When I mentioned that to my friend he chuckled and said: "well, OM is cheating on her with *HIS* wife I wonder if she sees that."

Just a chuckle about WS's. They already cheat on one another while involved in a relationship.

NRO...you really are doing a fabulous job. Very few can master this stuff so quickly with the devastation they feel. I have a feeling you will be one of the "poster members" here. Just wanted to tell you GREAT JOB AND KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!!!

Thank You! It is by the grace and mercy of my Lord Jesus that I am in the place I am right now.

Ah, I am but an apprentice still. I learn very quickly but I feel I am a long way from 'Master'.

The one thing I have over my WW, is when I find my mistakes I own up to them and correct them immediately. She takes a little time because she never likes to be 'wrong'.

This whole thing is an eye opener, I am at peace with whatever happens and know that I will be a better person for everything I have gone through.

NRO,

Aww man, I know what you mean about watching them in misery. My WS does this ALL the time. But, this is something they bring on themselves. All we can do is stand by and watch. And continue in Plan A.....

How are things going with you btw?? What are you reading now??? Remember to take this time to reflect on you and what changes YOU want to make in your life. The goal is to be the BEST YOU YOU CAN BE....

Keep your chin up...you are doing well. Especially being newly removed from Dday. It will get easier, and just when it starts to get harder, there is Plan B (which is the direction I am heading to...).

Hopefully, there is an end in sight to all of this. I feel for you, because I know how much it sucks...

not2fun

ps...I just saw your siggy....be forewarded...is fog is not breaking, it just clears occasionally. Until NC is established and even for some time after that, the fog will not lift....I know,,,,it sucks.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Not2Fun,

I am doing alright. Reading my Bible mostly, but finishing up HNHN and will probably pick up LB after that.

I agree with your assessment that the fog isn't lifting, she just seems to have more and more moments of clarity, which for the most part is nice. We had Lunch together today and things were almost as they were before all this started 2 years ago, it was a nice reprieve but just that I realize a small reprieve.

I had a small anxiety attack at work today, I have been getting those lately and just go for a walk when they happen. It helps to clear my head and calm me down. I am glad that they haven't happened when WW is around so far.

I am sorry to hear that you are going to Plan B. I am hoping and praying that I am in the small percentage that doesn't have to use it. Keep your chin-up, and be strong!

I appreciate everyone's help in this, I wish I found this place after the first D-Day.

NRO,

Anxiety attacks?? I know all about those. Suffer from those and panic attacks as well. If they continue, see you DR.. There is help. And it doesn't have to be permanent. Actually, you should go to your Dr. anyway, just to get check out and let him/her know what is going on. You have to take care of you and your health...

Anyway, I'm ok with Plan B. Really, actually I am probably one of the few on here who have craved it. Being out of my WS craziness is what I desire at this point. He needs to swim by himself. Its funny because he worries more about me if we were to D. I'm not sure why, but I am strong and will survive...

Anyway, keep it up....

not2fun

Yeah, I have seen my Dr. several times after all of this happened. Mostly because of my minor surgery, I'll talk to him when I am in there next. They don't happen very often, and I don't suffer all that much just get to a point that I have to be moving. So a walk helps a lot.

Last night was tough, but I made it! I was feeling really depressed and WW says "I don't want to be around you when your mopey" (How selfish is that!?) I simply told her I was getting better and that things come in waves and then let it lie.

For the first time in weeks this morning she told me I felt good cuddling in bed. Sometimes I wonder if she knows what she does or not, some of the things she does seem so vindictive, and sometimes they just seem like they are accidents.

This is going to be a long, long road. I can tell. I think I am going to schedule myself a massage because I am going to need it.

I am glad you are looking forward to Plan B n2f, it's not something I can say that I really want to do, and hope I don't have to. He worries because he still cares about you, I know it's hard to understand. (I have a hard time figuring that one out myself) Good luck, let me know how it goes.

NRO

Our situations are very similar, although I am about 2 months ahead of you in the A "timeline". Keep posting and listen to thse wise vets. Finally, after 2+ months of this stuff, I finally *get* it. You are going to be fine--- you worry about you right now! You can't control your spouse. Be a better you and do what you have to do to be fine at the end of this....with or WITHOUT her.

I would recommend getting on some anti-deppressants if you haven't already. They helped me really even out and not get so anxious about everything. This affair stuff puts you on the proverbial emotional rollercoaster. There is no shame in getting some help. I resisted going on them for a while, but am SO GLAD I finally did.

I think I 'get' it alright. I didn't crack last night it was just a little more difficult then the last few nights to get through.

Depression isn't constant, it comes in waves at the moment. My family has a genetic pre-disposition to chemical imbalances in our brains, so anti-depressants take 3-6 months to get the doses right. We are completely crazy while they are adjusting the dosage (watched my mom go through this) and my WW would split faster then a banana in an ice cream parlor.

I am doing ok.

I am so tired of this selfish BS.

WW wants to go see her sister by herself tonight after we go out. I told her it was ok but I was anxious about it. She says "if I stay am I going to be able to do anything".. ugh. She doesn't even care what I feel anymore.

Kinda discouraged, luckily I am at home alone for a bit so I can get my act together.

My doc told me that if an anti-D worked for a family member, it would probably be the right one for me too. So keep that in mind.

Hang in there and try not to take her babble personally.

It's been a little while so thought I would post an update.

Things are going well, WW decided she wanted to stay and a NC letter went out. So far so good, we are working on meeting each others needs and she's still really depressed but things seem to be headed in the right direction.

Haven't heard from OMW at all, so I don't know what's going on there. FIL/MIL are really supportive and things are very good.

I'm still keeping my guard up, WW and I are spending more and more time together and talk more and more which I think is a good sign. One of her top EN's is Conversation so...

Anyway.. I'll swing in and update every once in a while. Thanks everyone for your support and prayers.

NRO

Ugh.

I am depressed today. I screwed up last night and WW got angry at me. That caused all sorts of drama/crying etc. I am feeling really insecure and unstable and it's just been a hard day to be at work.

The screw-up was minor, but the aftermath was pretty severe. I can tell NC is being maintained.. (at least she is giving a pretty convincing show, and I don't see any evidence) but am still very suspicious and it's starting to wear on me. I feel like she doesn't really want NC, and any chance she gets she really has to work to maintain it.

Some pretty significant things (dates) in OM's life this week that she know about. That may be a part of it. <shrug>

This last week she has been very distant and moody, not spending lots of time alone, but doesn't really want to be in the same room with me. I am still doing Plan A stuff even though supposedly we are starting recovery... it doesn't feel like it though and I am hurting.

They are not seeing each other at work, right?

Hang in there. It sucks to be carrying the load for recovery when you are the one that was betrayed, but that is just how it is.

no, they don't work together any longer. In fact, it would be tough for them to see each other during they day he works about 30 miles away from her and the traffic is really bad usually.

I talked to her about my depression and insecurity a little last night. She seemed to understand, and was actually very open and honest herself about what she has been going through. It really is a giant roller coaster but it's not the kind you want to ride again when you get off.

Thanks for the support.

> She told me that "you were meeting all my needs before this >started" and I just nodded, I don't think she understands that I >couldn't have been.

With someone else to distract her, it's possible that she tolerated some things that would have bothered her previously or overlooked problems that she previously would have noticed. Some waywards can convince themselves that their marriages are just fine and that the affair has no effect on the marriage as long as it's never found out. In reality, they just don't see the problems because they are running away from them, trying to deal by distraction instead of finding a solution.