Hello-

I’m new here so please pardon any mistakes I make concerning the forum etiquette. I recently stumbled across this site in search for some guidance and perspective. I’ve been reviewing various post and responses for the last few days and decided to post my own. I’ll try to keep it short….

Two weeks ago, my wife tells me after probing her that she’s not in love with me anymore. This was after several weeks of seeming disconnected and detached and me asking her “what’s going on”. She was completely against talking about it but I insisted since I was shocked, devastated and completely crushed. This came out of nowhere. She tells me she’s felt this way for 2 years but has never said anything or expressed anything to me. She said that she still loves me and cares for me but is not in love. She doesn’t know if the feelings she has are normal or not. She did recommend seeing a marriage counselor which I eagerly agreed to. However, she seems mixed in her feelings to fix or not. She says in one breath that she wants to fix it and another she doesn’t know what she wants and then whether or not it can be fixed. I’m personally willing to do whatever is necessary to restore our marriage and our love. I love this woman with all my being and I’ve expressed this and verbalized throughout our marriage and relationship. We’re approaching 5 years of marriage.

She’s also in the past two weeks have said that we’ll be fine and the flip side that she wants out- confusing the heck out of me. I’m a very sentimental person so I keep everything and I came across this past years Valentine’s and Birthday card as I was retrieving the gift she bought for me so I reviewed the cards. The notes she left where very heartfelt, stating that she loved me more than anything in this world, that I was the best hubby ever and that I was truly her soul mate. I recently asked her about that and she said it was true so I asked well how can you feel this way then- I don’t understand. Her response was that she was trying- still doesn’t make sense to me. She’s been acting very angry toward me recently too and she says it’s due to the fact that we’ve talked about this before meeting with the counselor. I’ve tried to explain that this is all new to me and I’m trying to “deal” and gain some perspective. She tells me that she just wants to be left alone by everyone.

I’m truly at a loss of what to do and how to feel. I’m emotionally and physically crushed in every possible way and any guidance anyone can offer will be greatly appreciated.

This has all the earmarks of an affair: the rewriting of history, ie: "I have not been in love for 2 years" when you clearly know otherwise, "I love you, but am not in love," etc. Those are all CLASSIC statements of an affairee, I am sorry to say.

I would suggest you do not say anything about this, but do some sleuthing and find out what she is doing. Check her phone log, read her emails, put a keylogger on her computer, have her followed.

Get the FACTS and then we will tell you how to handle it from there. Don't accuse or even tell her you suspect, just find out the truth first.

Welcome to Marriage Builders, sorry you are here, friend.

p.s. if you will find out the truth, and rule an affair in or out, we can help you save your marriage. But we can't do that until we know what is going on.

Welcome. I suggest you put a keylogger on the computer and also check her phone call records. It really sounds like there is at least an emotional affair going on. That would explain her feelings.

I did the same thing you did, went back and looked at cards my husband got me. Just a month before, he had written long, loving remarks on a Christmas card. The sudden change was unbelievable. Turned out he was having an affair.

Thank you for the reply. I've asked her directly if there is someone else, if she was cheating on me. She has said NO. Should I still be suspicious?

I am sorry to tell you this, but she is probably having an affair. All the signs are here. And maybe she is not, but you should investigate to rule it in or out. You can't do anything until you find out for sure.

Like I said, don't ASK, because you are not likely to get an admission. Just quietly find out on your own.

They almost never admit an affair. Also it could be an emotional affair, and they usually don't even consider that an affair.

For a woman, it is usually someone in the workplace, a neighbor, friend, coach or someone with whom they have developed a friendship. Also old boyfriends pop up from time to time.

You really need to stop asking her and quietly check. If she thinks you are suspicious, she will hide her tracks better.

Could she be experiencing depression?
I would try marriage counseling and if she wants out after that, I am not sure what to tell you.

femme, marriage counseling is of no use if there an affair. [and often when there isn't!] He has to find out if there is an affair before he takes any action.

EM

WS's do not admit that they are having an affair. Affairs need secrecy to thrive. WS's are known to be fence sitters. They won't leave the marriage just because they are having an affair for many reasons.

The OM is only a boy toy and can not provide for the WW financially. The OM is married and not available to marry WW at this time.

That is why you have to become your own detective and search for proof of an affair. When you have enough proof you then must expose the affair. Never give up how you got your proof to keep your sourcres from drying up. Never give advance warning or threaten that you will expose. It only will give the guilty partys time to do damage control and paint you as a crazy jealous BH.

I'm sort of at a loss of how to go about investigating. Her phone is a work phone so I don’t see any bills activity etc and same applies to computer (work). She’s a technology professional like me so a key logger would be noticed immediately. During the week she goes to work and will come straight home- nothing abnormal there. She’ll spend the weekend with me even after she broke the news; she’s been spending time with me even though she just told me yesterday that it’s been awkward.

I thought depression too and even researched symptoms of bipolar. She told me that all her relationships have turned out this way but because this relationship was unique and she’s committed that she just did split and wanted to seek counseling. Although I get the impression from her that she doesn’t care which way it ends- this could just be my emotional impression, I don’t know. Our first marriage counseling appointment is this coming week. She’s also seeking a clinical psychologist. My concern and what doesn’t seem normal to me is that she states that she’s willing to walk away from everything (families, marriage, home, dogs, etc.). I’ve expressed this concern and she doesn’t know herself and thinks she may have some deep seeded issues. I never expected to be in this position…

Get a GPS tracker and put it in her car.

I smell an affair. Just because she is always home doesn't mean there isn't one. My ex conducted his affair at motels while he was supposed to be at work.

Are there any men she talks about? Does she hide her phone, go outside, or to the bathroom to talk/text? Does she delete the history, keep her phone with her at all times?

Has she bought any new lingerie that you haven't seen?

She generally talks about her coworkers which are mostly men. Heck, work is about all she will talk about in any length. She hasn’t purchased any lingerie. She doesn’t hide her phone.

Hopefully it is an emotional affair.

You need to get busy doing a good Plan A while you continue watching. Eliminate anything she complained about before, talk to her, even about her work.

See if she will go places with you like when you were dating. The Harleys suggest 15 hours a week doing fun things together.

She is in an affair or developing the precursor attitudes that lead to an affair either through her own mind set or association with someone (male or maybe female) who is catering to her ENs as explained on this site.

She may be one of those females who associate an Infatuation with real love. This is commonplace as evidenced by the widespread consumption of Harlequin romances but is not reality. Take a look at PEA (Phenylethylamine) explanations through Google or your favorite search engine. The Infatuation she originally felt for you should be starting to die out about now and this confuses the heck out of her.

This is a case of ignorance, not stupidity. Every female should be taught the issues of Infatuation and real love instead of learning the hard way.

See: http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/3-27-2004-52238.asp

Is she a chocoholic?

Larry

There are almost no wayward spouses who admit to being involved in an affair when they are asked--especially when they are asked with no evidence stated by the blameless spouse. Since you have little access to phone/computer, please do not tip her off any more than you already have regarding your suspicion. So she has no private cell phone? Does she have a pay as you go phone? Look at all credit card statements for suspicious activity--hotel bills, clothing you have not seen, dinners, pay as you go phones, etc. Do you have access to all credit cards? Look at bank statements and check withdrawals of cash.

Stop by her place of work--figure out a good excuse to do this. Try to take your time there to look over bulletin boards and try to talk to anyone that you know there in a friendly, social way. Note their reactions to your presence and her reaction. You have a very good reason to go there--you just want to stay connected to her in this time of marital crisis. At this point in your investigation, don't imply to anyone there at work that there are marital problems.

Does she go to a gym? Does she run or have any other hobbies?

Who pays the bills in your house?

Does she keep her cell phone hidden from you? Does she leave it laying around the house like normal people do or is it kept some place where you can't see it.

Track her comings and goings as was suggested, and consider taping her conversations in her car.

This smells like an affair and you need to find out if it is an affair. Her willingness to leave all behind also makes it smell like an affair--that is real fog talk.
Lake

Ok, so since she does not hide her phone--take a look at her call history. Is there a call history or do parts or all of it look like they are deleted. Who does she call and who calls her? Write down those numbers and note the times of the calls for future reference.
Lake

We’ve been going places and I’ve been trying to talk to her about anything that will sustain including her work. It seems while we’re out she’s having a good time but last night she told me that she wasn’t and that it seemed awkward, like a blind date that she didn’t want to be on- that hurt. The odd thing was last weekend we had a great time and she told me that. She said it was like we were dating again and as a matter of fact we were intimate- extremely satisfying for both of us. Fast forward back to this past weekend, she discounted what we had and said that there were times of fun but generally didn’t want to be there- so confusing. She says that she’s no interested in talking to me or going out, etc...but she has been going out with me including visiting our families for mother's day.

Thanks Larry, I will take a look and yes she is a chocoholic. Not so much lately though but she def. has her times and I would say that she is. Most recently she’s been smoking heavily.

How would she see it if it is invisible and can't be picked up by anti=virus or anti spyware? SpectorPro is very very hard to find. How do you think she would find it?


This is not unique. She has all the symptoms of an AFFAIR, EM. Saying "I love you but am not in love with you" is CLASSIC because in order for one to feel this way, she must be COMPARING her feelings for you to feelings she has for someone else. She wouldn't know otherwise.

Also, her rewriting of history to make your marriage seem much terrible, despite evidence to the contrary is CLASSIC. They do this for a reason. In order to justify the affair, they must demonize the marriage. The fuzzy logic goes something like this: "my marriage is bad, therefore, I am ENTITLED to find love elsewhere." I am not sure WHY that seems rational to waywards, but it is VERY TYPICAL. Of course, logic dictates that if the marriage is BAD, then an affair would not be the answer. But, such is the fuzzy logic of waywards.

Those are symptoms of an AFFAIR, EM, not depression. Perhaps there is some depression, and there often IS, but these things indicate an AFFAIR.

Can you hire a P.I. to tail her?

I'm certain it is an affair. That is why she goes out but feels she doesn't want to be with you. Double up your efforts. Be certain to spend 15 hours a week doing things that she likes. For most women, conversation is high on the emotional needs list. So talk to her (or just listen) about her job.

And please tell more about her comment that all of her relationships end like this. Does she have a history of moving on to the next man instead of working on relationships?

My husband could have written your original post two years ago. From the perspective of a formerly wayward wife, I'd have to definitely agree that your wife is having an affair (emotional or physical? Not sure...but definitely an affair).

I would agree that you should probably stop confronting her until you take some time to gather evidence. SNOOP. GPS in her car. Voice activated recorder in her car. Keylogger on the home computer. PI if you can afford it (<--best bet).

Start working on your Plan A:
- stop the lovebusters
- start trying to meet her emotional needs (the ones she will let you meet, anyway)
- start working on improving yourself (go to the gym, get a hobby, work on forgotten projects)
- continue to spend "alone" time with her if she will do it...try to do only things she wants to do right now and try to make it fun
- stop the "relationship" talk, talks about the future, etc
- start reading: Love Busters, His Needs/Her Needs, Surviving an Affair (don't let your wife see this one until she admits it)

If you confront her without evidence, she will not only deny, deny, deny, but she will go further underground and make it more difficult for you to find any evidence at all. She will be much more careful. Unfortunately, you need to back off a little bit so she will let her guard down and you will be able to "catch" her.

Good luck, Cathy

Yes, that is what she told me but the previous was never committed like our marriage. She told me they all ended with her not loving them anymore.

But did she cheat?

We talked about that early in our relationship and she said that she never cheated and never would consider doing something like that.

Oh good, so at least she apparently isn't a serial cheater.

I'm thinking it is an emotional affair with a guy she works with.

Many, many betrayed spouses here on this forum say that their spouse was the last person that anyone would expect to cheat on their marriage partner. Please know that just because she said she--did not and would not--means nothing. Do not let the idea that she--would not do that--side track you.

I forgot to ask how long you have been married and are there any children?

It will be 5 years in September and no children just two small dogs.

Me too.

And has she been married before?

No and nor have I. During our initial phases of our relationship and building up to marriage we both discussed what it meant to make the move to getting married. We both shared the same value that you only do it once. She’s not much for communication. It’s really all me as the force of communication; I’m very open and truly want to share. She’s quieter and to herself type of person.

And what has she been up to while you are posting here?

I suggest you spend some quality time with her this week with no relationship talk.

She went to a gun range and then to the grocery store. She’s gone to the gun range last Sunday and then today. She’s seems to really enjoy the hobby. She got interested in it when my Uncle took us and his son sometime ago. When she got home she showed me the targets and told me all about how she performed- she seemed rather happy. We had a snack together and talk some more about misc. stuff like restaurants and places we’ve traveled. She’s now cleaning her closet. She tells me that she needs time to herself and she wants to be alone so I’m unsure of how to engage. I try to talk to her as much as I can when she’s with me but she seems to get mad and claims I hover if I follow her around so to speak– if that makes sense. She’s recently (past two weeks) told me that I’m suffocating and that she needs her time and space.

Go out and do something. She thinks you are suffocating her because she is having an affair.

And I suggest you say nothing, but show up at the gun range next week, and see who else is there.

Actually I enjoy going to the gun range. Somehow it seems to lift all of the tension, and I feel GREAT afterward. But I would still check on her. It only takes a minute at the range to hit some targets, and then she has time away for other things.

I will be completely surprised if she doesn't either have a man with her, target shooting, or is using that for an excuse to get away for a couple of hours.

But this is something you can verify.

Go running, or go out with a friend, and don't tip your hand. This is like war - don't let the enemy know your battle plans.

This certainly sounds like an affair to me.

My H carried on his affair ENTIRELY(except for 2 occasions) at WORK for one full year. People just don't believe that's possible, but it definitely is.

Except for those 2 occasions, I could account for his basic whereabouts the whole time.

His cell phone turned out to be the key, but I missed it.

He said the same things your W has said. "I want to be with you. ....No, I want to go..... hmmm, I don't know what I want....you are smothering me.....I need to be alone.....blah, blah, blah."

He bought me the BEST present he has ever bought me in the midst of the affair and gave me romantic cards for the appropriate holidays.

My H also told me he would never cheat. He had never cheated on anyone before. Cheating was AWFUL. How could anyone possibly carry on two lives like that????? It would be too much work.
We had several discussions about this both before and after we were married.

I asked him if he was cheating. He told me unequivocally," No, I am not cheating on you WH2LE".

After I had solid evidence that he WAS cheating, he told me was NOT cheating. WSs lie. Period.

I looked for help on the internet but did not find MB till AFTER D-Day. I wish I had it found it sooner. I might have been able to speed the end of the A before it went so far.

Listen carefully to what the vets are telling you. Do what they tell you to do. They have seen this over and over and over.

I would be very leery of the gun range thing. Next time she wants to go, ask if you can come along too. Watch her reaction carefully.

Consider hiring a PI.

I can tell you that it may be "just" an EA or even heavy duty infatuation at this point. Many women "live" in their heads. I suppose men do too, but being a woman, I am familiar with what women tell me. Feeling that you are smothering her and wanting to do things by herself might just be ways that she can be alone to spin the fantasy in her head. If you are there, she has to pay attention to you. Do not underestimate how DANGEROUS this fantasy life is though!! It is only a small step from a fantasy to reality.

Also, don't think this is just a phase that she will work through. This a very serious problem whether it is a PA, or EA, whether it is just a fantasy in her head right now or a reality.

You have come to the right place.

Good luck,
WH2LE

Oh yeah, even better idea to just SHOW UP a tthe gun range.

See, the vets KNOW!!!!!

WH2LE

I think the cleanest approach is to hire a PI to go to the gun range.

Yes, a PI at the gun range, or maybe a friend. The gun range is not the best place to discover an affair.

How did it happen that she is going alone? If uncle introduced the two of you to shooting, how did it come up again? It sure sounds like it could be a place she meets someone, or an excuse to get away to meet someone.

Thank you all for all your replies and guidance. It’s been really helpful and enlightening in a scary way. She went alone because she said she needed personal time. That’s one of the complaints she had that I suffocated her and didn’t allow for enough personal time. Along those same lines for Memorial Day weekend she’s planning to visit her cousin and her cousin’s live-in boyfriend in Long Island by herself. I was never really perfectly okay with it and now that I’ve received this perspective of an affair it makes me feel really uneasy. Tomorrow night is our first marriage counselor session. I’m hoping she’s willing to open up more in the context of counseling but if not, I hope I have the opportunity to surface my concerns and belief that there some sort of an affair brewing or occurring.

This would help her better conceal the affair if you reveal your concerns. If she knows you are suspicious, she can do a better job of hiding it. She most likely is meeting the OM for Memorial Day weekend and is also going out with him on the weekends.

If you ask her about it and tell her your "concerns," she will most likely LIE about it and then do a better job of hiding the affair.

I am sorry to tell you that your wife is having an affair, EM.

p.s. if you want to save your marriage, then get the truth out in the open. You are wasting your time paying a counselor for your W to lie to.. If you want to work on the marriage, then take that money and put it towards a P.I. who will tell you with WHOM your wife is having an affair. No hope until the truth comes out, EM.

I am sorry to be so harsh with you, but you need to face the fact that your wife is very, very likely having an affair.

I know that you are still in a state of shock, but PLEASE don't go to the counselor thinking that your wife is going to admit to an affair. You will only be giving her a warning to hide things better.

In my 4 and a half years here, I've only seen a couple of spouses admit to an affair without being caught.

You are shooting yourself in the foot!

Shocked disbelief and devastated are all ways to describe how I’m feeling right now. The counselor was her idea and request. She’s also going to see a clinical psychologist tomorrow afternoon prior to our session late afternoon. What's your take on that?

She may be preparing to lower the boom and tell you about the affair. Or she may be preparing to ask for a divorce without telling you the truth.

But whatever you do, don't tell her you suspect if she doesn't tell you. And if she does tell you about the affair, don't agree to anything or fall apart. Ask as many questions as possible: how long? who? You do have a right to know everything since this is information about your life.

If she asks for a divorce, tell her you will think about it but agree to NOTHING. No "amicable divorce," no "just friends." Don't commit to anything.

Just come here and tell us what she said so we can HELP YOU. Most marriages DO NOT end over affairs and we can help you manage this and maybe even save your marriage.

I can't thank you all enough! I will return tomorrow with more information.

I am so sorry, EM. And I so HOPE and pray I am WRONG about everything I said. I really mean that. But whatever the issue, we will be here to help you.

Lost and confused,

I agree that your wife is probably having at least an ea, if not also a pa. The reason she wants space is so she has time to be with and think about the other person. I had an ea about two years ago and that is the same thing I said to my h. I don't think you should hire a pi. You need to ask her outright. If she lies she lies. Tell her you are willing to change and to work on your relationship and leave it at that. If she is having an affair she will go back and forth from you to the other guy. I strongly recommend the book surviving an affair. It will tell you exactly what to expect. That is the book that changed my mind and want to work on my marriage again. My husband (understandably) did not react well when I told him. He was very disrespectful and angry. Everything you do right now will push her away, she probably is not ready to see things clearly. read the book. pretty much everyone I have talked to about affairs says that if you change the names in the book it is their story. it has the much needed advice and info you need. don't give up, things can be turned around.

He has already asked her outright and she denied it. WS almost always lie, even when they don't have to. The vets have given him excellent advice and hiring a PI is a SMART way to get the truth. Without the truth, he can't move forward. With the truth, he will know exactly what he's facing.

So she had her first individual session with a psychologist today and later in the afternoon we both had our marriage counseling session. She came back from the personal session with the psychologist very happy. She told me that she was told that she was normal and that she shouldn’t deny who she is. If she’s the type of person that easily detaches from relationship after relationships then she must be comfortable with herself. She seemed very happy to know that and was comfortable with her being that way.

Later in the afternoon we saw the marriage counselor. This was an interesting session, she says that she doesn’t think she has any love for me whatsoever but she cares. She also says that ideally she just wants to be left alone. She doesn’t know what she wants out of a marriage or why the hard work is worth it. The counselor is putting us through two independent sessions to work on things and then bring back our findings in group setting to see how close or far apart we are.

I have asked her directly and I’ve asked her to be honest and open with me no matter the type of affair or thought of having one. She strongly stands by that there is no one else or thought of anyone else. That she just wants to be left alone… I just don’t grasp the normalcy of walking away from the life we built together- abandoning everything she once valued.

ok, EM, are you going to hire that P.I. now?


Does she expect you to remain in a loveless marriage in which she "just wants to be left alone?" What was her solution?

Kimme, he has already asked her. Asking a WS for the truth is a complete waste of time that will not help, only hinder.

"If she’s the type of person that easily detaches from relationship after relationships then she must be comfortable with herself. She seemed very happy to know that and was comfortable with her being that way."

Sheesh, lucky she isn't comfortable being an axe murderer......

I hope you are not PAYING the counselor for this kind of advice.

Look EM,

I know this is hard to accept, but WSs LIE. They lie and then they lie and then they lie some more. They lie to you, they lie to MCs(ask how many people here were in MC and their spouses were lying very convincingly for long periods of time), they lie to their friends, they lie to each other and worst of all, they lie to themselves.

I probably asked my H 5 or 6 times over the year he cheated if he was cheating. I was calm and told him I just needed his honesty. GUESS WHAT??? HE LIED!!!!!!! They are so caught up in the lie that they keep lying. They feel justified. They are LIARS, not the honest, wonderful people we married. The LYING is what RULES their life, their every move.

It is completely UP TO YOU to find out the truth. Hire a PI. Then you will know what you are dealing with.

Stop thinking that you can figure this out and that she will cooperate.

It's a bad spot that you are in, and we have all been there. And there is loads of GREAT advice for you here.

Trust this advice. Hire the PI. Also, go read KLD's thread. It's called "Turns Out to be Worse Than I thought.." It's on this GQII forum. This is how she got the proof she needed to uncover her H's affair. She hired a PI who did a fabulous job for her and found the information quickly.

Good Luck.
WH2LE

You sound just like me a little over 1 year ago. I knew something was up for a long time before I could prove it. Like your situation, there was no missing time for an A to happen, etc. Same "love you not "in love"", wanted "space", had felt that way for a "long time" etc.

Turns out she was having an A with a coworker where they would use his nearby apartment during thier lunch hour. You will learn that this is all textbook wayward spouse behavior. It took me MONTHS of searching to find out the full truth and wring a confession from my W.

You need to find out the truth. GPS her car, or put a digital recorder inside it. Get ahold of her phone, that was the major clue for me as to who OM was.

Sorry to say it, but I would bet heavily that your W is having an affair. You need to find out who OM is, then you can forumlate an effective plan. Until then, Plan A for you. Eliminate all lovebusters, become the H you should have been all along. Stop arguing with your W. Stop following her around being pathetic. Clean the house when you're stressed or do something else that meets a need of hers without being in her face about it. Do this without expecting ANYTHING in return. This is the carrot of plan A. The carrot creates internal conflict within the WS as it makes it hard(er) for them to justify the A to themselves. It also makes for some pretty off the wall WS babble. You need to realize that if your WW is cheating on you, she will LIE, bold faced lies, straight to your face.

She will prey upon your trust, threaten that your suspicions are driving her away, that you are crazy for thinking she could "do something like that". The sooner you recognize this for what it is the better off you will be.

Plan A, do what it takes to find the truth. My guess is that it has something to do with work or the gun range (if she's even going to the range! Perhaps her OM shoots and those are his targets? Yeah, I'm paranoid, but, I've been there. . . I would suggest following her to the range, borrow a friends car or something. DO NOT GET CAUGHT SNOOPING!!

This upcoming weekend sounds pretty fishy too. I'd at the very least give a call to the cousins to make sure they are expecting her arrival. Maybe you need an address to print a map for WW or something? Make up some excuse.

SEEK THE TRUTH! None of this is going to make any sense until you find it.

To answer a few questions, she doesn’t have a plan other than her ideal scenario is to be left alone…meaning she wants to be alone. She says she wants to go through the marriage counseling to understand whether it’s worth staying or not. It’s not clear to her what working on the marriage will get her or what she wants out of a marriage. I’m trying the plan-a approach and being nice (which I always am and have been) and talking to her about those things she seems to be interested in (again that typical me). However, she doesn’t want to spend any time with me or she said be in the same room. This is supposedly as a result of me aggravating her by talking about our relationship and questioning the situation we are in. This has also caused to now have no love for me whatsoever- as she said during our counseling session.

I found it extremely odd too that someone would suggest that the continuous cycle of abandonment would be normal if that’s who she is. Now, she told the marriage counselor this and he said that he would have approached it a bit different in the sense that maybe it’s because that’s what’s she done, knows how to do and is comfortable with it but now she should understand what working to keep a relationship is like. That’s where the, what do I get out of it came from so we’ll have to see how this progresses. I’ve come to terms to do all I can to avoid talking about us and move onto more pleasant conversations.

I understand I need to get to the bottom of this but I ask the experts, by forcing this, and forcing her to tell the truth by exposing her will that ever result in us having a healthy relationship or are we just destined to be doomed?

Uh huh. I've been there. The idea that "what if I just let this slide and hope it gets better" thought.

Sorry, it doesn't work. Its just setting yourself up for trouble down the road.

The only way through is the truth. What are you doing to seek it? If she is having an A, she will NOT provide you with the truth.

Think. Why would your W suddenly decide she's not "in love" with you? I remember when I was seeking the truth I came across an article about the "I love you but not "in love" with you" statement.

I don't recall it specifically, but the gist is that what she is referring to is not LOVE. What she is saying is that "I care about you but I'm not EXCITED by you." Meaning she is excited about something else. Something else has made her feel what she imagines "in love" feels like. It isn't real, and part of her knows this.

In order to cut through the double speak (also called "fogbabble" around here), you have to bring reality into the discussion. The only way to do that is to find the truth. Once you get the truth, it will all make sense and you will be able to form an effective plan.

EM, but you are not talking to experts. You are talking to people who have no experience and no qualifications to deal with adultery, and thusly, don't recognize the symptoms.

Dr. Willard Harley, a clinical psychogist who SPECIALIZES in adultery, would tell you there is likely an affair going on here. He would also tell you that you have no hope of saving your marriage until that truth surfaces. You cannot deal with a problem when the problem is being CONCEALED.

No one has suggested that you "force" her to tell the truth. in fact, we have advised AGAINST THAT, because you cannot do it. What we have suggested - IF YOU WANT TO SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE - is that you hire a PI and find out the TRUTH on your own.

Please use common sense and listen to your words:

Do you think you have "healthy relationship" NOW? Do you think a secret affair will lead to a healthy relationship?

EM, the "experts" you are speaking to have NO PLAN to save your marriage. And this is the case with most counselors. They have NO IDEA how to save a marriage. Marriage counselors have the highest failure rate of any of the counseling venues at 84% failure.

Dr Harley, who really IS an expert, has a PLAN. Many of the folks who are posting to you here, including me, have GREAT MARRIAGES today because of his PLAN.

You need a PLAN, EM.

ML, I believe he was asking "us" as the "experts".

Other than that, rock on, right there with ya!

DUH! Dat went right over my head! LOL!

That’s correct; I was referring to those here that have been providing guidance as the experts. I was just purely reflecting on the fact that if I gain this knowledge and expose the findings to her. By doing that and knowing how deceitful she was and her willing to stray would we ever enable us to have a healthy relationship again. I also agree I need a plan and try to gain insight into what’s occurring. I think a P.I in the city she works seems to be the best start in learning. Does anyone have any guidance to what services I should be soliciting or pricing of a P.I. By the way, she works in Philadelphia. I assume the charges for such a service are discrete as I don’t want this to be traceable.

Yes, this is the only way to have a marriage again if it can be saved. It is surely doomed if you don't ever get to the real problem. The way to save your marriage is to kill the affair and the way to kill the affair is to EXPOSE IT and get it right out into the open.

Affairs thrive on secrecy and exposure ruins them.


I would start by hiring one to work this weekend to see where she is going and with whom. I don't know anything about services, etc, but I might call the police station in that town and ask one of the older sargeants for a referral. Many PI's are ex cops.

The only way you are going to be able to ever have a healthy marriage with your W is by moving forward knowing the truth. Sticking your head in the sand just isn't going to cut it, as tempting an option as it may seem.

If you find an affair, then you will proceed with "the stick" of plan A, which will be doing everything in your power to break up the A. Your marriage does not have a chance while the A is ongoing. Realize as well that if your W is cheating on you, she has effectively ended the marriage. SHE has done this. You knowing the truth and acting from it will not be the cause. Whether or not you are able to rebuild from it will depend on many things, but don't put the cart before the horse.

I do not know the costs of private investigators. I would suggest you call a couple in the Philadelphia area and ask them. They are the pros, presumably you will not be the first person to want to keep your investigation private, so I would not worry much about that. Call, find out. A quick google search of Philadelphia Private Investigator turns up dozens of options. I would tell them that you want to know if your W is cheating on you, and if so, you want to know everything possible about who the OM is.

Hi EM. I don't normally spend much time on this part of the forum. I hope I don't offend any one by pointing out that, yes - there may be some sort of affair going on in your marriage. Your wife may be having her most important emotional needs met by someone else. If this is happening you do need to find it out in order to deal with it. If present, an unexposed affair will slow your recovery progress to a crawl.

But one thing that that is absolutely 100% for sure - you are not meeting your wife's emotional needs and/or you are love busting. No need for much investigation to see that. If she is having an affair it is because you are not meeting her emotional needs or your are love busting - so she has chosen to have her needs met somewhere else rather than go without. Invest in a GPS, a PI and all that stuff - but also invest the time and money in to solving the root problem of your marriage - unmet emotional needs leading to a loss of romantic love. Outting your wife's affair (if it exsits) is very important - but it is not the end goal. The goal is a happy, fulfilling loving marriage. Until you learn and do what needs to be done to achieve this, you will not get what you want.

Cathy gave you some great advice earlier suggesting you work on your love busters and your wife's ENs while you are snooping for an affair. Are you doing any of that? Do you have any idea what your wife's ENs are? Do you know what your love busters are? This is where the real work is. Don't neglect it. True your efforts will be muted if there is an affair but you will be building a foundation for future progress. You will be learning and gaining understanding of what has gone wrong in your marriage and what needs to change.

Good luck.

So I’ve been away for a bit. We had a long weekend away. She came back happy and she seemed to have indeed stayed with her cousin the entire time. We had a verily good start to the week, general talking etc – no tense conversations but she still expressed at times since of frustration and angriness (coldness) toward me. Although, last night she comes out and says she just doesn’t want to be married or with me, she wants out. It seems the fight to preserve is over since she has no desire in staying or being with me whatsoever. I was researching investigative services but did act and now it seems unnecessary. It just keeps getting worse.

EM,

Not to badger you with this, but how do you KNOW she was with her cousins?

Do you want to continue your marriage? This is the ALL-IMPORTANT question?

If you are interested in saving your M, you should still hire the PI?

It just doesn't sound as if you still have any more info than you did before.

Very FEW women want out of marriage just BECAUSE. Really.

WH2LE

I absolutely want to continue my marriage and I’ve told her that. I’ve told her that I’d undergo anything to ensure our happiness and success. You’re right; I don’t know anything new other than her feelings for me have progressively lessened to the point where she says she has NO feelings for me whatsoever. The reason I know she was there was, I talked to her while she was there and her cousin. How can I save my marriage if my wife is so adamant that she doesn’t want our marriage or me?

Here’s the latest and all of you guiding and helping will not be surprised at all. My wife decided to stay in Philadelphia for a couple of days for social events last night a birthday party for coworker at a local bar and planning tonight for dinner with the boss and drinks afterwards. On Monday before she left, I asked her to call me when she got back to her hotel that evening. She said it depends on how she felt. We had a conversation about that and she ultimately said she would if it made me feel better. Fast forward to last night, no call from her. I’m concerned but do nothing. I get this feeling while I’m sleeping that something is up, around 3AM ET. I get up out of bed and I call the hotel she staying at to connect me to the room. They tell me that she hasn’t checked in so red flag is up in my mind. I call her 3 times all to voice mail and then she calls me back. I asked what was going on, I had a bad dream and I wanted check on you since I didn’t hear from you. She said she was just sleeping so I said at the hotel? She said yes, but I said I just called the hotel to be connected and they said you were not checked in. She lied a bit more and pressed and then she said, she’s staying with a friend. I said who, she pauses for a bit and then says the girl’s name that the party was for. I called BS, and said I know you’re not there, tell me the truth and after much back and forth she came clean. She said this was the first time and a onetime thing. It is a coworker that she said they were talking and she was physically attracted and decided to act on it. She claims this has never happened before and didn’t expect me to ever find out. I don’t believe her but she has stressed the marriage is over and she’s leaving. She has an appointment with a divorce attorney next week she told me. She wants to understand what her options are and now that she has had an affair what that means.

I’m mentally and physically devastated and I think that I am shutdown right now. I asked her to come home tonight so we can talk about this and coordinate how to approach the divorce. I feel now more than ever I need to protect myself. I don’t know fully what her affair means to the divorce but I know she does not want to reconcile with me, she is fully out and strongly wants out.

Any guidance is greatly appreciated… Thanks again for all the previous guidance and suggestions.

THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS EM! She feels this way BECAUSE of the A. You are competing with a fantasy and as long as that fantasy is alive you are going to come up on the short end of the stick. NOW it is time to attack the A. Find out everything you can about OM. Is he married? GF? Lives with mommy and daddy? EVERYTHING YOU CAN.

Its time to expose. She's cheating with a coworker. Expose to the company, write a letter to thier bosses and the HR department if it is a big company, there are several examples of such letters, you want to be businesslike and stress that you are trying to SAVE your marriage in this letter. Also expose to her family. Exposure brings reality. Reality destroys As.

She is almost undoubtedly lying about this being the first time, I'm sure you know that. Quit talking D with her. Just stop talking about it. If she brings it up, tell her that you are not going to talk D with her.

IF she offers up some incredible settlement, you may want to consider it. Many times waywards will give up much more initially while they are in the fog. A signed separation agreement may be in order if she does this.

DO NOT give her any warning about exposure.

I am asking you the same question I did before. Do you want your marriage?

If the answer is YES, then GET ON THE STICK AND GET BUSY. Now is the time man.

Go back, re-read all your posts and start doing the things the vets have advised you to do and that you have not done yet.

EXPOSE, EXPOSE, EXPOSE!!

Tell her, "I don't do divorce, I do marriage."

If you don't want your marriage, then just do as she says and ignore all the information you have been given here.

Your WW is in the fog, big-time. NOTHING she says can be counted as meaning ANYTHING!!!!! Turn the fog lights on and get out the fog horn.

Even if you decide to get a divorce, you should still expose.

I am so sorry you are in this position. We have all been there with you. Unfortunately. Keep posting. MB saved me and absolutely saved my marriage. The advice you get here can change EVERYTHING!!!!

Blessings,
WH2LE

I do want my marriage but she's made it clear that she does not and will not stay. She is meeting with her attorneys on Monday. She extremely angry, cruel, mean, hateful toward me and I’ve been nothing but nice to her during this. She’s told me some things about the person but I don’t know if she’s lying or not – it’s hard to tell at this point. I agree I do not believe that this is the first time. She’s told me that she really doesn’t want anything but we plan to speak about all the stuff and how to approach splitting it up and steps to sell the house etc.

Does the formal separation outline the agreement of assets? I’m really nervous now about my own protection because she seems to be spending money excessively. I’ve told her that I want the marriage and before this came out I told her that I’d be willing to work through adultery but she’s totally unwilling so I’m completely at a loss on that front.

As it relates to exposing, what does informing her work do? I do plan to tell her mom which will tell her grandparents, etc. What else should I do as it relates to exposure?

EM, no matter what else you do you should take steps Today to protect yoursself financially. Dont wait for your wife to meet with a lawyer or for a seperation agreement.

Get your own bank account, move what money you believe is yours. If you have a direct deposit cancel it or change it to a new account. Cancel all joint credit cards immediatly. you are absolutly right to protect yourself. You are perfectly within your rights to do this. Do not be concerned about her reaction to this. You are just protecting yourself.

Do you have kids?

Your wifes behaviour is VERY typical at the moment. You are the receiving end of Fog Babble. Dont get caught up in it. Dont react to it. Treat her like a falling down drunk. Is there any point in arguing with a falling down drunk?

If you want to save this marriage there is hope. My wife said all of things your wife said during her affair. I survived by believing she was temporarily insane (but dont say that to her).


There are a lot of things you can do but first things first. Protect your finances immediatly.

EM,

"I survived by believing she was temporarily insane (but dont say that to her)."

That quote is PERFECT. It explains clearly the way a wayward is thinking, or rather.....NOT thinking.

I also survived by thinking this about my H.

You are giving ENTIRELY too much credence to the words that are spewing out of your WW's mouth.

Who cares if she doesn't want the marriage? YOU DO and you are NOT insane and YOU are thinking clearly. Take charge. You may be the first person in her life who thinks that she matters enough to fight for her. If you want her, FIGHT FOR HER!!!!!! Stop listening to the fog-babble. See alawyer TODAy to protect yourself and start MBing.

You can do this. And no matter what happens, you will know that YOU did your best. Priceless.

WH2LE

I’ve been fighting as hard as I can this entire time. My wife wants out; she’s stopped counseling and will not go back because the marriage is over as she has said. She’s already lined up an attorney and is meeting with them next week and she had her own accounts (checking, credit, etc) setup well over a week ago. It doesn’t seem that I have a way to turn around someone who is so headstrong of dissolving the marriage. She has agreed to make no contact with this other person until the house is sold and she’s moved out. If she does, she understands how strongly I will pursue the divorce and ensure she is entitled to nothing as a result of her adultery. At this point, we are mutually reviewing our assets and she’s agreed to be entitled to only what she needs. This is extremely tough, although, I do have times of numbness which has given me the strength to document our assets and walk through ownership etc.

EM,

I certainly wish you luck. I hope you will be able to heal and move on from this.

Th only other comment I have is that MB was MADE for people like you and your WW. If you have read the posts here, you will see that there are many(if not most) people who have heard the SAME words from their WS that you have. AND now their marriages are recovered.

If you believe divorce is imminent though, continue posting here on the Divorced forum. There is SO much good help to be found at MB. Whatever your situation.

Blessings to you,
WH2LE

I so wish that it wasn't. I just don't know what to do or what I can do to turn her around. I would love to save my marriage more than anything else.

You stall, you implement and continue Plan A.

If the settlement she is offering is good enough, then you have to consider it, if its not, then you continue your fight for your marriage. Even if it is, you decide what is most important to you.

The settlement we are agreeing to is good. However, I’d much rather have my wife and life restored. When you say stall, how do I do that? She’s moving ahead so what do I do to stall it? I know I can stall calling realtors but what about her pursuing the divorce?

You tell your attorney to stall in every way possible. Stall every deadline to the end, file every extension possible. You stall in providing whatever information is required of you. A competent lawyer will know how to do this. I think you tell your lawyer:
"look, I don't want a divorce, I need you to buy me as much time as legally possible while still protecting me to the best of your ability. If there's a choice between time and protection, you tell me the risks and I will make the decision."

Thanks, I understand. I suppose then in parallel that I continue plan-A which is being nice and avoiding all love busters but not stop her from doing things like moving out of our room to another or separating finances, etc.?

You would continue Plan A, yes. I would let her move to another room as well, but would express that it isn't what you want. I would separate the finances. That is part of bringing reality to the situation, and is also prudent for you given that she is filing for divorce. If she complains about it, just tell her you're only doing it because its what she said she wants, that you don't want it, that you want to remain married and find a way for you to both be happy.

Plan A doesn't mean denying reality. It is about making the changes in yourself that need to be made, not fighting with or lovebusting your wife, and seeking to interfere with the A any way possible.

You cannot stop your W from filing for divorce, but you are under no obligation to make it easy for her if it is not what you want. If she wants a quick and easy divorce, make her give you a deal you simply cannot refuse. Don't ask for that, because then in her mind it will be "all about the money" to you.

My next concern is by doing this will she resume her affair since she only agreed to stop until the marriage dissolved and house was sold and we went our separate ways. Any thoughts on how to handle that? Also, should I encourage her to put our rings back on?

You speak the truth about what you want and what you will tolerate. She will do whatever she wants. If you'd like her to wear the ring, ask her to. If she refuses, state your dissapointment and let it go. If she continues contact with OM, continue to attack the A however you can. Realize that Plan A behavior is designed to attack the A, as it creates conflict within the WS. It is hard to justify destroying someone that is being nice to you. Doesn't mean she won't do it anyway, of course. Continue to attack the A to the best of your ability.

I asked and she was completely unwilling- so I said okay. She’s continuing to tell me she wants out so I’m trying my hardest with plan-a but I don’t feel like there’s any progress being made. She’s unwilling to endure MC any further and I found out that she had no intentions or motivation to repair when we started MC. We only had a couple of sessions before the affair was exposed and she said she wanted a divorce. I suppose I keep my path forward and accept what happens. I really don’t know what else I can do.

What have you done to put pressure on the A? Who have you exposed to? What do you know about OM?

The affair needs to be exposed at their work. Write a letter to HR and let them know about the affair and ask what they plan to do about it.

Also her parents, grandparents, family and any close friends need to know about it. Let them know you want to save your marriage and would like their support.

Find out if the OM is married and inform his wife what hubby is up to.

Only then, when the affair is exposed, do you have a chance to save your marriage.

Actually, it is only when the A is over that you have a chance. Exposure is a tool used to end As.

EM I worry that you are wallowing in inaction when you should be ACTING. Your W is pushing D. If you don't want a D, you better get off your [censored] and do what you can while you have a chance.

Your WW is no different than any other. She's doing and saying the same things as all our WSs did. Given that, doesn't it make sense that the result of your acting will be similar to the result many of us experienced when we began to execute the MB plans? Act now, in your own best interests, even though you fear the outcome. Which would you prefer? Doing nothing, and getting divorced, or doing everything you can and perhaps still getting divorced?