Does anyone have any advise about a WW going back to work? I would like to return to work but boundaries have always been an issue for me. I am a very open, friendly person and like to share my feelings with others. Of course, after going thru the program, I realize that I cannot share my feelings with members of the opposite sex or talk about my personal life. FTF and I need to come up with some kind of list of things for me to say in specific circumstances. Any advise?

FC,

Never have a conversation with anyone you do not tell your spouse about, this includes other females, since you want to avoid having those comforting conversations where you run down your spouse to someone else.

You can no longer have a secret second life and your husband too.

God Bless
Gamma

What are your EP's as of now?

Well, I tell him everything from how I truly feel to all my passwords. I am open and honest. We try to spend 15 hrs a week in UA time together. I try to be the source of his happiness instead of depleting his love bank. I'm sure there are others that I will think of later

Fc, these aren't extraordinary precautions, they are basic requirements for recovery.

What precautions do YOU have in place to prevent OS relationships?

I am unfamiliar with your thread; but as a general rule, any conditions which made the affair possible should be removed.

If a certain work environment made the affair possible, Dr. Harley would advise against returning to that environment.

You can email Dr. Harley for further clarification on this rule.

Also, the Policy of Joint Agreement (POJA) would apply: Never do anything without enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse.
Is your husband in enthusiastic agreement?

Hi FC:
Was that your email that was read on today's show (Mar 11) ?
If so, are you going to be on the show next week? Will your DH join you?

Is your Husband enthusiastic about you going back to work?

Are you hoping to go back to work in a similar field to the one in which you had the affair? That alone could put a strain on your marriage and should not be done.

Not talking about your personal life is a necessary precaution, but there is more to it than that. In mixed workplaces, we need to not "hang out" alone with someone of the opposite sex; no going for coffee or lunch or a quick drink after work (and indeed, not even going out in a group if you spouse is not present); no conversations about anything that isn't work-related; in short, no making friends in any way with men.

You express the problem as being about your liking to share your feelings, and indeed that would be a problem if you do that with someone of the opposite sex, but really, most affairs start as friendships and friendships do not have to start with discussions about your feelings or your personal life. They could start with discussions about politics or healthcare, or working closely on a project - remember Sue and the OM in SaA? They grew close over the lake restoration project.

If, after your affair and after having read some of the many stories on here, and having studied Dr H's materials, you do not have an instinctive wariness about all interactions with men, and if you find it hard to know when you are in potentially dangerous territories, then I think you should not be working in a mixed environment. You seem to be expressing a difficulty with your own judgements, and in that position you should not expose yourself to situations in which you will be tested.

I am not sure what you mean by "some kind of list of things for me to say in specific circumstances". Do you mean, for example, if a male colleague tells you you look pretty today? If he asks you to go for coffee? If he sits next to you at lunch? If he asks you how your weekend went?

Could you be more specific about the circumstances?

FC,

Specifically in your case, your H needs to know when there are men you are working with who match the type you have strong attractions to.

God Bless
Gamma

According to Dr. Harley's article, these were his suggestions.

Yes, that was my email. We will be on the show Tues

No, he would prefer I stay at home but I just can't anymore. I am going to go crazy

I was a teacher and was hoping to be a substitute teacher because it would work so well with our schedule and I could make more money doing that than anything else (which is one of the main reasons I would like to return to work).

I understand about not making friends with men or even conversing with them as little as possible. My question is more like what you said. What do I say when someone says I look pretty or likes my outfit or hair or complements me in any way. Or asks if I want to go out in a group? Or asks about my family?

Ok, so I will tell him if I am working with any men who have the body type I am attracted to

That should be extremely rare unless you are giving "open for business" signals. I have worked with all men since 1989 and men don't typically act that way at work unless they believe there is an opportunity. If some man does make an inappropriate comment about your appearance, just give him a frosty "thank you" and leave the room. If you do otherwise, he will get the impression that you are open for business. I don't know many married women that are too fond of that kind of treatment at work because they truly want to be respected in the workplace.


Say no thanks.


"they are fine, thank you."

FC, if you want to be taken seriously in business, it is real important to keep a professional distance from male colleagues. I KNOW what they say about women who they feel are "open for business." [women who flirt] It is really horrible. We had a receptionist once who was overly friendly and the next thing I know the drivers were murmuring about how she "gives blow jobs out in the parking lot." Suddenly she was the workplace pariah. The things they said about her were really disgusting.

Your typical flirt likes getting attention but they attract the wrong kind of attention in the business world. Successful flirts in highschool and highschool jobs are not successful in the world of business.

According to the Policy of Joint Agreement, you would not do anything that your spouse is not in enthusiastic agreement with.

Are you committed to following the POJA?

This is what concerns me, fc. You are going to be gaining at his expense.

You do not have to get a job in order to get out of the house or do something fulfilling.

So Dr. Harley answered your question on the radio show. What do you think of his advice?

I don't feel like he answered my question at all. He just said don't start working until Aug.

What did you do to fill the days? Didn't you have days where you just felt "What would happen if I weren't here? Would anybody even care?"

He said that you and he are making progress and that when you and your H are in love again, that will be the time to go back to work.

Meanwhile, can you and your H brainstorm for ideas on how you can happily fill your time until then? Are there online classes you could take? Are there some activities you and other women, maybe other mothers could do together?

I work from home and I don't have any idea where all the time goes. Work doesn't fill up that much of my day, but between house work, little projects that I always have going on the side (organizing, decorating, etc), taking the dogs on a walk, cooking, reading, posting here on MB, exercise, running errands, the day goes by so quickly.

I wish I had more time, I would take an online class in a second.

I also work from home - very parttime - as a bookkeeper. I love it. It doesn't take more than a few hours every couple of days, so I have to find other ways to keep myself busy and productive.

I found dance classes in my area - they are wonderful and only with women. It's healthy and gets me out and the women there have become part of my friends circle.

I thought it would drive me crazy to be at home this much, but as it turned out, I just had to find my niche in our new community. In our own case, working outside the home in regular employment wasn't our answer. It didn't fit with the lifestyle we want to keep. So same challenge even though different circumstances.

In our last city, I found Mommy and Me cooking classes. I took my granddaughter to those and that was fun for both of us.

Keep looking. My daughter had to completely rebuild her life after she was working full-time then had her baby. Then she had three more babies and is home full-time. She had to find ways to be with other women out of the home throughout the week to keep from going nuts.

Yes, I did.

This last winter, I organized an effort to help a hurting family -- the husband's ww had left the family for her OM, abandoning her 4 children and taking her paycheck with her. The hurting BH was struggling to keep food on the table and a roof over their heads, and had no way to give his children gifts for Christmas. I lead a group to raise funds, collect items, shop, and wrap gifts for each child. We took a van load to their house, along with a tree. It took a lot of work, and was very fulfilling.

A few years ago, I organized an effort to help a family in Africa build a home. The family was having to live apart, in different towns, because they had no place of their own. Again, it took a lot of work on my part, and was very fulfilling.

My point? You don't need 9-5 job outside the house to be involved and fulfilled in life. Plenty of opportunities for activities or projects or groups are out there. I encourage you not to lock yourself into just accepting only one solution to the problem you face.

In addition, you are more likely to feel that way when you are not in love with your husband. This is a big part of the reason why we push you to build a romantic relationship with him.

FC,

One issue I see is that the school environment is loaded with affairs, this was true when I was in high school and from teachers I have spoken with it is still true.

As long as you tell your BH everything that happens at school, and report other teachers for inappropriate comments, complementing you hair is inappropriate, I don't see an issue.

You might also cleanse the temple so to speak by dropping a dime on those who are know to be having an affair or allowing your BH to do so.

God Bless
Gamma

Those are all really great ideas. I really appreciate having others empathize with my feelings. FTF emailed several MMO organizations that we could take our daughter to which I also appreciate. It makes me feel like he understands how I feel.

I would love to find an exercise class with other women. and take violin lessons and ballet class. They all cost money though and I feel like I can't do those things if I am not pulling my weight with the income. That's why I am searching for something part time.

How does FTF feel about that?
Why not brainstorm ways to do one of those things this summer?

Exercise classes are very cheap depending on where you go. You could join the YWCA or even start a neighborhood exercise class of your own. Have you thought of that?

Agree. I don't spend much money on exercise classes. The ones I go to are like $5 a class but mostly I do it from home, DVD (every kind imagineable is avail, including ballet inspired, which I have and they are great) and YouTube.

I started playing the piano again last year. I just got the books and started reteaching myself. Don't really have the time or $$ for formal lessons, it's still fun. I am not looking to become a professional anyway so it's not a big deal. Oh, I bet there are violin lessons on Youtube...

If you husband is pulling in a good income and can afford these purchases you should not feel bad.

However if money is tight. Then you do not do those things.

...Or start a walking group in your neighbourhood. (free)

...And there are ways to do music that are free... I joined a community handbell choir, where many of the members started without being able to read a note of music. (free)

Handbells sounds like fun!!

Well I just signed up to be an online teacher and looked into MMO programs for our daughter. It's a great start!

What does an online teacher have to do? Was FTF enthusiastic about it?

Here's your question about going back to work.
Radio Clip of feuillecouleur's question

Online teachers have a class full of students but all the work they do is online. You can do it from home.

He said he was enthusiastic about it

Radio Clip of feuillecouleur and FightTheFight's Show
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4

How are things? Are you working?

Hi BH,
Things are going well. Not working yet but hopefully soon!
How are things with you?

I'm good thanks.

How are you and FTF doing?

We are struggling with the SF lesson. Having trouble with the willingness and arousal stages. We have done most of the other lessons, though, and they have all gone well. Even though I do some independent behaviors sometimes I haven't noticed any love busters on his part.

What IBs are you committing? Are you catching them or is he telling you?

How is your LB balance? Is he filling it up?

You probably already know this, but reactions are much harder to change than behaviors. You are having problems with your reactions right now. You can not easily force a change, but you can work on improving those behaviors that support the reaction. Specifically, you can help FTF to identify those things in you that make the biggest love bank deposits. You can actively participate in building an environment that will make it possible for you to fall in love with FTF. You can help in developing UA activities that are especially enjoyable to you. Seeking SF is the natural reaction to being in love. You can do a lot to allow your love bank to fill. The rest will follow on its own.

I suspect you may be thinking that your personal experience suggests that affair sex was so enjoyable that nothing FTF can do can compare. Well, although it may be enjoyable, it is SF without the fulfillment. That is why affairs are so deceiving. They mimic the reactions of something real, but ultimately fall apart because they are built on fantasy.

I told our son's friend he could come over without asking FTF first. He was asleep since it was so early in the am. I knew I was doing it but I did it anyway.

I'm not sure about the LB balance. How do you tell?

How is he feeling about the marriage? I see you guys have been at this for a very long time. Most betrayed spouses would have thrown in the towel by now and filed for divorce. How much longer do you think he will hang in there before giving up?

What is your plan to do away with the independent behavior?
How is your UA? Are you enjoying it? How many hours are you getting? Doing what?

Are you on antidepressants? I can't remember ....

He said last night that he could no longer live in a sexless marriage

Your reaction to that?
Are you willing to meet his emotional needs?

Please answer this.

FC, have you discussed this with Dr. Harley, and/or your coach?

fc, what could your husband do for you to make you happy in your marriage? I don't get the feeling that you are happy in your marriage and I wonder what is missing for you. MB is all about identifying such issues and working on them.

I don't mean things like letting you work outside the home, which would in fact take you away from the marriage, and which is nothing to do with the way he behaves towards you. I mean in his daily interactions with you. What needs is he not meeting as well as you'd like, or what love busters is he committing?

For the moment, let's forget about the arousal problem.

Do you care for your husband? Do you understand that this is a vital way of showing your care for him?
Do you believe that it is important that you meet the SF need for your husband?
Are you willing to meet it, but are uncomfortable or unable to do so? Or do you hope the problem just goes away? I'd like to know your honest reactions to these questions.

As for arousal, what are you doing to work on this problem?

Don't disappear when people start asking questions, FC. You need to discuss this.

Yes, I agree? We want to help.

How about getting back here and talking to us, FC? We are here to help you but we are not going to beat around the bush like your husband does.

So it's ok for him to have independent behavior but not me? I don't post on here bc all I get is lectures

Oh good grief, you were not lectured. You just heard some things you didn't want to hear. And no, it is not ok for him to have independent behavior.

How about coming back here and answering our posts? You have a whole army of people here who want to help you. But no one here is going to just slap you on the back and tell you what you want to hear. If you want to improve your marriage you have to be a big enough girl to listen to things you might not want to hear. That is how people improve.

And you do want to improve your marriage, right?

for my children's sake it's better if we are together

I agree with this. But wouldn't you also agree it is in your best interest to be in love with the father of your children? Single women with children do not fare very well in the open playing field. They are usually very poor and only have access to the worst of men. [the good ones are already married] It is hard to find a man who take a woman with "baggage." [baggage = children, divorce, etc]

Have you thought about what your future looks like without your husband? Because that is where you seem to be headed...

Would it be too much trouble to get more than a tossed off one liner from you? If I am going to take the time and trouble to post to you, I would appreciate a little more effort. After all, it is your marriage that is on rocks, not mine.

I wouldn't want to put you out or anything.

i'm not planning on leaving. i have no job and no money and where would i go? i can't leave my children

FC, I am not lecturing you. I am asking you questions to not only get you to think, but so that I can know how to help you better. Your answers are key to my understanding you.

We are here to help. Please answer the questions so that we can help.

No, your husband is not allowed independent behavior. I have called him on it whenever I have seen it. Is he currently doing something that bothers you?

Then whats your plan to save your marriage? If you continue on this path, you need to have a backup plan for when it fails.

I'm just pissed off bc I didn't want to post on here but he made me

He reopened his facebook account but won't let me open mine and I don't think that's fair

I took time out of my busy day to read this? Do you think we want to post to someone who is not serious about her marriage when there are so many others here who ARE?

Then it is in their best interest for your marriage to recover. Do it for your children.

That's why I'm working the program

If you are not enthusiastic about that, you need to complain to him. Tell him, calmly. He should close the account.

From the outside looking in, it looks like someone who is just going through the motions and is not serious.

What does the program say you should do if your spouse does something that makes you unhappy?

I don't care if he reopened his account but I should be able to do it too

The program says that you should tell him/her if your spouse does something that makes you unhappy

I believe you are.

Part of the program is complaining respectfully when ftf does something that bothers you. You simply say "it bothers me that you opened your Facebook account." And avoid comments about fairness.

One of the hardest lessons I had to learn early on was that my husband wasn't my enemy. Ftf is not your enemy. You are in this recovery together, on the same side. He will do things that bother you greatly, that seem thoughtless. It is your job to inform him, calmly.

How do you figure that? He didn't have an affair, you did. You are a high, high affair risk. All you are saying here is that you are "pissed off" that you have to follow extraordinary precautions to prevent another affair.

That should really scare the holy hell out of your husband. You don't want to protect him from another affair?

but it doesn't bother me that he did it. I just want to do it too

You are bothered by this IB. NEITHER one of you should have Facebook.
Have you told him?

In truth, I do agree that neither of you should have a Facebook account. He is probably at a higher risk of an affair because your marriage is so bad. He should follow the same Eps that you do.

so i'm suppose to live in this box and watch the world go by outside my window! not fair!

You can't. You know why.
And since it bothers you for him to have one when you can't, he shouldn't either.
It does bother you, or you wouldn't be talking about it.

Being the victim of your affair is not fair. Was that fair to him?

You see, all the rest of here have affair proofed our marriages and we do not "live in a box." We have great marriages as a result.

I know that feeling all too well.
What's supposed to happen is that you fall in love with your husband that you don't WANT to come out of that box -- you want to stay there WITH him and for everybody else to just leave you two alone.

Tell him that you don't want him on facebook when you can't have an account, and ask him to close down his account. Then you two need to get back to making lovebank deposits.

How is your UA?

so how much longer is the suffering going to last? it's been over 3 yrs already

I don't really feel like spending time with him actually

People who are passionately in love are not suffering. My H and I have a great marriage and we practice EPs. So do Markos and Prisca. We are not suffering.

How much longer will your husband suffer in this marriage?

It will last until you are both in a recovered marriage -- which means you are both in love and caring and protecting each other.

Amen!

It's been 3 years of hell for him.
I know it hasn't been all that great for you, either.
Neither one of you can just get over it. You have to actually do things to make it better -- like UA, and eliminating lovebusters.

I would say you still have a problem with disrespectful judgements. Would you agree?

I'm not surprised. I don't blame you, actually. I get it.

He probably doesn't feel like spending time with you, either. Both of you have emotions that are telling you to avoid each other, because you make each other miserable.

Can you do it, though, to put your marriage back together? For your kids' sake?

What do you think of this comment from Dr. Harley to your husband?

Why all the telegraphic posts? It makes it hard to figure out where you are coming from and is encumbering to those who would like to help you.

Why do you say that? Have I made any d's here?

Is that where UA comes in? because we don't do anything fun

It makes me depressed bc I HATE being at home with the kids! It makes me want to kill myself

Yes, you have. Would you like me to point them out to you?

Yes, UA is a BIG part of it. But it must be fun. Experiment until you find something FUN to do together. Both of you should start making a list of things to try, then try them! See if you like it. If you do, do it again! If you don't, then try something else.

I don't understand what you mean by "telegraphic" posts. If you are referring to the short, one-sentence answers, then it's because I have a 3 yr old that hasn't figured out that the umbilical cord has been cut yet. She lays on me ALL DAY and I have to type with one hand. It took me 20 yrs just type all this. and then she will probably hit some button and erase everything I just wrote

Then put the kids in a Mom's Day Out program and do something on a regular basis with some female friends. The point is not that you stay home. The point is you don't return to work at this point in time, which is the environment that lead to your affair.

One more affair is all it would take to end your marriage. Is your marriage important enough to protect it?

Find something else to engage yourself in.

We did that when we did the RC lesson already

Keep doing it until you find something fun to do during UA.

The 3 yr old goes to a MMO but it doesn't run in the summer so they are both home in the summer. It's hard to find free stuff to do and I don't really like spending time with them. I would rather they go to daycare

We only have a couple of things that we can both agree on. Everything costs too much money like cooking classes. It's $150!

Please tell us what you've done on all your UA dates for the past two weeks. Tell us how you felt when you were doing whatever it was.

Yes, please bc I don't realize I'm doing it

Then put them in daycare. Or find a SAHM who you can pay to watch the kids a few hours every day, for probably cheaper than daycare. It will probably mean not getting to do something else so that you can afford it.

But you can't GO to work to pay for it. Are you okay with that, to protect your marriage?

We just moved in to our new house so we haven't been anywhere

Please explain what you want. I am having a difficult time seeing through all the complaints. Do you want to have an independent life? Do you really want to be single, or do you have some other idea of how a marriage should function?

It makes me made bc I don't have a choice. I'm being told what to do

Save up for the big things like that to do only occasionally. Keep looking for cheaper things to do on a more regular basis.

That's a pretty big problem.

I want friends. I want a life. I want to not have to stay on the couch holding a 3 yr old all day. I want enough money to decorate my new house. I want to have a job to get away from the kids and have enough money to do stuff like go out to concerts and go shopping

You have a choice.
You COULD go back to work. But you put your marriage at risk, and it will more than likely end.
Or, you could not go back to work and save your marriage.

It's all about making choices that protects the marriage.

That makes me feel like my future is already determined for me and I'm stuck here with these **** kids all day for the rest of my life. I would almost rather die

Like I said, I don't really have a choice

Okay - tell me about any typical two weeks before you moved. What did you do, and how did you feel about it?

Then have friends and a life. Do something other than staying home with your 3 year old. You are not tied to the house just because you have a 3 year old. You are also not tied to a just having a job as a way to escape. There are other things to do. Find something to do.

I have a new house, too! I'm here cleaning it up and getting ready to move into it as I type to you. I want to fix it up and decorate it, too. In fact, shopping and planning ways to fix the house up could be a very fun thing to do that you might enjoy doing with your husband.

It might take you longer to do than you'd like because you can't buy everything you want up front. You'll have to take some time to get it all.

The question is, are these wants more important than your marriage? Are they worth putting your marriage at risk?

We usually just went out to eat or to a movie, the usual. We did go to Biltmore which was fun

You are not a child. No one can tell you what you to do without your cooperation.

One thing that my H and I love to do that is not expensive is go out to dinner in places an hour away. The drive over and back is great UA time. We eat out a lot without spending much money, because we will split entrees in restaurants or eat in cheaper restaurants. Young couples have lots of such opportunities with a wide variety of restaurants.

Last night for example, we ate only appetizers at our favorite pizza place and then went shopping for computers afterwards. We ordered 3 appetizers and 2 drinks and it was around $24. We were both very full too.

Your dates don't have to be complicated. You can do easy things like going out for dinner followed by a drive or window shopping.

Congratulations! Isn't it exciting?? Our living room furniture is coming on Thurs! I'm so excited!

During our UA before we moved in we would go to furniture stores and decor stores to window shop and say what we liked and plan what to do with our new space. It was fun. I enjoyed it. I just feel bad because we have all this debt and all I do is sit around all day doing nothing to help the situation

Another thing you can do is go to the website of a major restaurant chain and get coupons. I get coupons for Red Lobster all the time. We even enjoy eating at Five Guys hamburgers sometimes and that is very inexpensive.

DJs:

"So it's ok for him to have independent behavior but not me?"
"I'm just pissed off bc I didn't want to post on here but he made me"
"so i'm suppose to live in this box and watch the world go by outside my window! not fair!"
"so how much longer is the suffering going to last? it's been over 3 yrs already"

Those are really great, doable ideas! Thanks!

Your kids are not going to be young forever, and they won't be home for the rest of your life.

It doesn't feel like it right now, but it won't be long before you turn around and your 3 year old is a 9 year old kid who would rather spend time with his/her friends than you. Soon after that, he'll be graduated and gone.

How are those DJs? DJs are: "He never wants to do anything fun" or "He's so bossy"

I just want to point out that this is why you feel the way you do. This program doesn't work without the policy of UA.

I get that feeling, too.

But it is a choice, it's just a choice you don't like having to make. You must choose between your job and your marriage. Whichever you choose, do what it takes to make that choice a success.

I am a coupon fanatic. But just going out to eat is not fun for me. I need something else

Such as?

I feel like I'm doing it already by working the program

Like what? What else would you like to do?

Yes, it is very exciting.

Window shopping for things to do with the house sounds like a very good way for you two to spend your time.

window shopping, decorating, home improvement

Then you need to stop dwelling on how much you want to get a job. You have made your choice. To dwell on the choice you did not make is counter-productive.

I will suggest it to FTF

I just wish I could make money to do all the things I want to do is all

I love doing that! Will he go with you to do that? What about a nice dinner, drive followed by shopping?

If you are going to make such a choice, why don't you accept that choice and stop this?

"So it's ok for him to have independent behavior but not me?" -- assumes that it is okay for him to have IB, also assumes that he WANTS to have IB when you can't.

"I'm just pissed off bc I didn't want to post on here but he made me" -- but he made me" is a pretty big accusation and disrespectfully worded

"so i'm suppose to live in this box and watch the world go by outside my window! not fair!" -- assumes he wants you to live in a box, bored out of your mind

"so how much longer is the suffering going to last? it's been over 3 yrs already" -- negates his feelings, implies he should feel different

I'd love to have that, too! Who wouldn't? I have made the choice, though, that there are more important things for me and my family.

You should have money for this purpose. All the money in your marriage should be spent with joint agreement. Your access to money should be identical to FTF's. You should not be in a compromised position when it comes to controlling the finances.

I love doing that! Will he go with you to do that? What about a nice dinner, drive followed by shopping? [/quote]

That sounds lovely! He's very good about doing whatever I want to do

I just wish I could make money to do all the things I want to do is all [/quote]You should have money for this purpose. All the money in your marriage should be spent with joint agreement. Your access to money should be identical to FTF's. You should not be in a compromised position when it comes to controlling the finances. [/quote]

I'm not in a compromised position. I just want to buy a nice shirt for myself every once in awhile

Yeah, it really sucks bc I'm so selfish

I didn't realize they were DJ's. I was just expressing how I feel. I DO feel like he expects me to live in a box and I DO feel like he doesn't care if I'm bored or not

That sounds lovely! He's very good about doing whatever I want to do [/quote]

ok, here is your assignment, Madam! Print out this worksheet and start filling in the week with your H. Fill in things that you would most enjoy doing together. http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forms/FiveSteps_Time_for_Undivided_Attention_Worksheet.pdf

Think about places you would like to shop, dinners together, sight seeing, etc and fill in a whole week with him. This afternoon you can make up a list of the things that would make you the HAPPIEST on your dates.

Can you do that?

Stop what? Feeling the way I feel?

Can you explain to me, a non social media person, what pleasure you get from a FB account? What do you get from it that you couldn't get from, say, emailing your friends and sending pictures that way?

Also, how is FB different from "watching the world outside my window"?

It's difficult for me not to make my questions sound scathing, but I'm trying to push you to see whether you can get those pleasures in any other way, and to see things from another perspective.

Another thing to add to this: sarcasm and exaggerations are VERY often lovebusters. You should try to avoid them.

Whenever you say what the other person is thinking or feeling, you are making a DJ.

There is no difference between saying "I feel like he expects me to live in a box" and "I just wants me to live in a box." Or "I feel like he doesn't care if I'm bored or not" and "He just doesn't care if I'm bored or not." Adding the words "I feel" does not make these statements any better -- they are still disrespectful judgements and are still lovebusters.

Disrespectful judgements are VERY TRICKY to see in ourselves. This is going to take some practice before you consistently see them in yourself.

Start trying to talk about your feelings without getting into DJs. It's difficult, I know, but you can learn it and with practice it will become easy.

All good questions that I have asked myself already. I never really got on FB when I had an account anyway so I never really missed it. I did miss hearing all about my friend's lives and looking at pictures of their kids and hearing about all the things they were doing. It just makes me feel more connected somehow. Especially when somebody says "Just get on the facebook page" for such and such. I have to explain to them that I don't have a FB account and they look at me like I have 2 heads

Just look at them like they have 2 heads in return It's what I do!

So how would I word this without being disrespectful? "I feel like he expects me to live in a box"?

First, tell me what he's doing or saying that makes you feel that way.

I can appreciate that - except caring about their reactions to my not having any accounts.

My friends are very good at sending emails saying "this is for you. I posted it on FB today". I have no idea if they do it with everything, but they do it enough for me to know the juicy stuff. Can you get your friends to do that?

FC, before you disappeared last time, I posted this,and I understand that it it upset you, so I apologise. I'm going to try and explain what I meant, and to press you for an answer.

I was trying to say that I know you want to go out to work, but I'm trying to find out whether that is the only thing that makes your marriage not romantic for you.

If you went out to work, do you think you would be romantically drawn to your H? I know you would be happy in yourself, because you'd have money to do do things you like doing. (I like that aspect of working, too.)

However, I'm asking about being in love with your H. Is he doing something that stops that from happening? Does he have mannerisms or a style of conversation or annoying habits or anything else that makes romance difficult for you?

I'm asking because, since going out to work is not advised right now, and since doing so might not increase your romantic feelings at all, you still need to focus on your direct relationship with your H.

Haha yeah it's something I've gotten used to

I wish I knew. It's hard for me to tell him stuff like "Hey, you know, you should really brush your teeth more" or something like that. How do you even tell somebody you said "for better or for worse" to that they need braces on their bottom teeth and bigger biceps??

Unfortunately, most of my friends were from the school that I worked at and I don't talk to them anymore. Since FTF is the only one I ever go out with, I don't have any friends

This is self-pity, and it just won't do.

When I stopped full-time work and was at home a lot with my young kids, I found it impossible NOT to make friends with other mothers in the neighbourhood. From "new baby" classes at the local GP surgery, to drop in play sessions in church halls, to toy library sessions and joining the local National Childbirth Trust, I fell over so many interesting, fun women that I found it hard to get my housework done!

Why haven't you made friends during the daytime since you gave up going out to work?

I just don't think that he really understand just how much I hate staying at home with the kids and how depressed it makes me. He suggests going out but I don't really feel like doing anything

Being on the online course gives you the means and opportunity to raise these issues safely. There are questionnaires galore on which you may identify LBs and problems, and there is your coach, to whom you can write and ask her to bring up an issue with your H. Have you been using these resources? Are you being honest when you do? If not, why not start using them now?

The thing is, this is crucial information that ftf needs to get the marriage that he desires. He is hurting really badly over your not-in-love state of mind, and the resentments you hold towards him about not being able to do IBs. He has tried really hard to make you happy, and what he seems to get from you are requests for things that would harm your marriage at present, like outside work and FB. He needs to know what he can do to bring back your romantic feelings for him, and, as Dr H said, if those returned, you would not be at high risk of an affair again.

The two things you mentioned would be easy for ftf to fix, if he knew that they were turn-offs for you.

My feeling is that you have only ever seen MB as something to resent, when you should be seeing it as a way of getting the marriage you want.

We just moved in 2 weeks ago and our neighbor stays at home. She mostly stays at her house doing whatever. We did go on a walk once. We joined a gym and I met another lady there but she lives kind of far away. We have to cancel our membership to help pay for dance class. FTF doesn't like to go to church so we don't go. We have been to the library but I haven't met anyone

I think you are depressed and that a course of anti-depressants would help you.

"It would make a lot of lovebank deposits if you got braces."
"It would mean the world to me if you worked out and built up some biceps."

This is how I phrase such requests to markos all the time. He likes it, because I've just given him an idea of what to do to make me happy.

Not "church" as such; play sessions put on during the daytime for mothers and toddlers. These are really good. They don't require church attendance.

Our libraries put on special sessions for parents and toddlers. This is not just going on your own to borrow books, but joining in singing and games at organised sessions. There are women there just like you, intelligent, educated women who once had jobs (and possibly intent to return soon) but who need outside contact while they are at home with their kids.

Yes, that's exactly it. I have always resented having to do the program in the first place and don't expect it to work. Even if he fixed those things, would that make me love him? I don't know. I don't know how to even talk to him bc I resent him so much

You really think so?

You can't rely on one person, hoping it will be your neighbour, to be a special friend. You need to come into contact with a lot more women to find a few friends.

Does your gym do drop-in sessions with childcare? That way you don't need membership. Our local leisure centres (not private gyms) do this.

Who is the dance class for?

I'mn totally unqualified to say and should not have put it so strongly, but you do sound very low to me. I should have said "perhaps you should talk to your doctor about how you are feeling".

That resentment must be about more than teeth and biceps. What is it about?

Ok, that I can do!

You sound depressed, fc, which is probably part of why you don't feel like doing anything and see little hope. Will you look into getting antidepressants for a SHORT while (doesn't need to be long term, just for a few months).

Okay, say that he doesn't really understand. That doesn't mean he wants you to live in a box. He is trying to help you get out of that box by suggesting you go out, but that may not be the kind of help you are looking for. It sounds to me like you would like some empathy? Maybe?

Instead of saying "I feel like he expects me to live in a box," say "I don't feel understood." Keep in mind that he doesn't need to agree with you in order to understand you.

Would he be enthusiastic about you doing things with ladies from a church, though? Around here, we have Ladies Days and Ladies Events at churches. Women from the community are invited to come, even if they don't go to church with us. It's something to think about.

Dance class is for the 3 yr old. We will have to talk about keeping the gym in the budget. You have to be a member to use the drop in services

Yes, I think he would. I've never heard of that before and will need to do some research.

I can do that

I don't think you have any idea what a wonderful resource you have in the programme. I think you've been looking at it in the wrong way.

I think that you see it as a punishment for having an affair, and as something you have to go through the motions of doing, to repay your H for taking you back after the affair. However, I think that seeing it that way (and maybe we sometimes push it that way on the forum) is setting yourself up for resentment to the degree that you will never give it a fair shot.

You should use the weekly lessons (and also emails to your coach and posts in the private forum to Dr H) as a way of bringing up issues that you want resolved. There are clearly things in the marriage that have made you unhappy for years, and things that ftf does (not necessarily cruel things - oral hygiene etc) that are big turn-offs for you. This programme is not created for BSs to get revenge on WSs, or to get compensation from them. It is created to give both spouses the romantic marriage that they signed up for when they married.

I don't know how much you've read on ftf's thread, but you must be able to see places where we have been hard on him, even when he went there hoping for sympathy. We point out any LBs we can perceive from what he writes. He was bashed hard for re-opening his FB account and given good reasons why this hurt his marriage. He has been taken to task for DJs against you. If you came here regularly we would do all we could to help your marriage. ftf is not your enemy, and neither are we.

I wouldn't suggest that you use the online programme or this forum as a way to have a go at ftf and conduct your fights in public with us as referees, but you should use the resources vigorously to be heard and understood, in order vastly to improve your marriage.

understood

But you need to follow through.

I agree that you sound depressed. Will you talk to your doctor about ADs?

I thought I had eliminated all my LBs. Maybe not. Maybe I should ask FTF

No, I meant that you need to follow through with doing the programme, completing the worksheets and posting to your coach and here. It's no good your saying that you understand my point but not following through with the advice.

I think that mild depression is making everything seem hopeless and affecting your motivation about everything. I really think you should see your doctor. Will you promise to book an appointment?

I have an appointment on sept 3rd

I'm very pleased to hear that, fc.

FC,

Yard sales are a way to go shopping without spending much money.

I think at least part of the issue here is that you really want to live a socially vibrant life, but your conception of that life involves drinking with friends and going out without FTF. In short living a second single life in parallel with your everyday one.

God Bless
Gamma

I think you're partly right, Gamma. I enjoy doing things with friends but it's enjoyable with mutual friends as well. We have mutual friends that we hang out with but can't get in enough UA time to have time left over to spend with them. Going to yard sales together on sat mornings would be an enjoyable way to spend some UA time with FTF. Grandma could babysit for us which would be free! Thanks for the great idea!

You never gave me an answer to this yesterday.

Could you describe your feelings to me, before and after the affair? Was there resentment prior to the affair that made an affair seem attractive? Can you isolate the reasons for the resentment?

I don't want you to talk about the affair itself. I'm asking you about ftf.

Why don't you enjoy doing those things you do with friends, alone with ftf?

I'm not criticising or lecturing you. I'm asking you to try and isolate what makes your UA time with ftf not enjoyable. Yesterday you said "Is that where UA comes in? because we don't do anything fun". Why is it not fun?

Before the affair I resented him for not treating me like a princess like he did when we were dating.

I don't know. I enjoy going dancing with girlfriends but it's not as fun with him.

Please expand on that. Did he basically move in and sit watching TV? Stopped taking you out? What?

Why not?

Is he not as good at dancing?

Does he not enjoy dancing and you can tell?

Is he not as sociable and talkative as your women friends are?

What is it?

Yes, we worked a lot and stopped going hiking and traveling as much. We hung out with friends a lot though.

Yes, I would agree with all of those

What else was missing from the "princess" treatment? You mention hiking and travelling. Did you do those things most weekends? And what else?

What about the way he treated you generally? Did he stop being romantic?

Have you listened to your show from last July? It was about the exact same issue, UA not enough and not enjoyable. I would listen again.

We did them in college. He wrote me a love letter once. I used to think I was wonderful and wanted to know all about me. Typical "beginning relationship" stuff

I am still holding a clingy 3 yr old so will have to listen to it later. I think I'm going to gouge my eyes out!

I think one of the problems (possibly the biggest) is that you haven't followed through on Dr H's advice about being persistent in finding enjoyable UA time. From what ftf said when he gave me a list yesterday, you have tried a wide range of things, but from what you say, you haven't enjoyed most or any of them.

This makes me think that it's partly the activity that isn't right, and partly what else you are doing on a date. Do you think that ftf really tries to talk to you about things that interest you? Does he really try to get to know you? Is he pleasant and fun on dates, focused on your happiness and does he obey the rules of good conversation?

Why do you think you have had such trouble enjoying your dates?

Yes, he does a good job of talking about things that I like to talk about during our dates. I just don't have a lot to say bc I don't do anything. I don't go anywhere except with him. I don't have any friends. I basically don't have a life.

Your dates are supposed to give you the sense of having a life.

You seem to need an escape from the boredom, loneliness and monotony of being at home alone with the kids all day. Your dates are supposed to provide that escape. UA time on this programme is designed to be the most enjoyable time of your week. The assumption is not that you live your life during the daytime and therefore have something to talk about during the evenings - although a busy, enjoyable day would be nice and would make things a lot easier. The goal is to make dates thoroughly enjoyable in and of themselves, so that you have a lot to talk about while you are together.

Dr Harley says that UA time is much more important for the wife than for the husband. It is much more important to focus on what she wants to do to have a good time with her husband in order for her to feel in love with him. Men generally don't need the same quality of UA time in order to feel in love with their wives.

I think you and ftf epitomise this problem.

That is the kind of stuff that needs to go on in a relationship permanently. One affectionate thing I do for Prisca is write her a short note every morning when I leave for work.

And trying to know all about each other is one of the "friends of good conversation" Dr. Harley lists. This is something to be doing constantly during your UA time together, regardless of what activity you pick. You are going to feel great when he asks you all about yourself and your thoughts, feelings, opinions, etc. It's going to make massive love bank deposits.

And if you guys were previously doing some of that in writing, I would suggest he do that in writing now, as well.

Bingo! Dr. Harley says we ALL need an escape. And for married people, that escape has to be with each other.

Find a way to have a regular escape from life, and make your husband a part of it. That is the challenge. Find a way to reward yourself for all of the difficult things you go through each day, something that you will truly look forward to each day. And then bring your husband along with that.

I just got done relistening to this, and I remember it well from last year. The urgent crisis that needs to be solved is you are not in love with your husband and you are not having enjoyable times with him. That has got to be the priority number one problem to resolve. Dr. Harley even said to slant everything in your favor (as opposed to FtF's) in terms of making things enjoyable together. I remember hearing that statement last year and thinking that was just what I had to do with Prisca in order to get our relationship jump started again and bring about our marital recovery.

Another crucially important thing I heard is that Dr. Harley picked up on being with your family as a time you loved and that your husband needed to be in on that. He recommended that FtF schedule fifteen hours a week to spend with you and the kids as a family. Has FtF been doing that? In order to solve the urgent crisis in your marriage, that is a source of massive love bank deposits that should not be left out. That was very important in mine and Prisca's recovery as well.

You've got to do something fun. You've got to do something that will be your reward and your escape in life. You guys got through the recreational companionship lesson, but I don't think you've truly accomplished the goal yet: finding something you can do together that you will enjoy that will give your life the escape, the reward, the something to look forward to that you need.

Yes, that's exactly what we need. We just have to figure out what it is

If you get enough UA time you don't have time to see mutual friends, and probably no additional money to go out with them, either. So see them round at your house when you can. Have informal supper parties on non UA nights - no babysitter needed!

Start right now by planning a housewarming family party. It's summer and you should be able to do everything outside. Plan dishes that you can prepare in advance and stick on the BBQ or in the oven, and see if maybe a few friends will bring desserts.

This isn't a substitute for enjoyable UA time. That problem still needs rigorous efforts to improve, but I think you'd have fun with this.

Are you letting him know when you aren't having fun or when you are?

Get that problem on the front burner. Talk about it every day. Give FtF your innermost thoughts about it.

What EXACT behaviours would FtF be exhibiting if he were treating you like a Princess?
So far, you have said, romantic love notes.
What else?

FC,

You wrote, Going to yard sales together on sat mornings would be an enjoyable way to spend some UA time with FTF. Grandma could babysit for us which would be free! Thanks for the great idea!

Possibly too this will help FTF get used to your going to places where you meet and talk with strangers, there is a social aspect to yard sales.

FTF may be like a parent who almost lost a child and as a result becomes overprotective, you need to reassure him you can be trusted with yourself. Try to be aware of unconscious flirting you do.

God Bless
Gamma

I am actually planning a BBQ for his birthday next weekend

OK

I like it when he does things like brush my hair out of my face and takes me on picnics and babysits while I take a bath

Get that problem on the front burner. Talk about it every day. Give FtF your innermost thoughts about it. [/quote]

We talked about it last night and came up with several ideas:

going to home improvement workshops on sat am while grandma babysits- free

cooking classes

window shopping

sometimes but admit i could do a better job about that

How about open houses at new housing developments (including condos)? You can often get decor ideas, or at the very least discuss what you like/dislike. And it is free.

wow, i've never thought about doing that before. that's a great idea!

So this morning I had an ah-ha moment. We had signed up for Scotts to come treat our lawn but a guy from TruGreen came and quoted us a lower price. So we decided to go with them instead. I called the Scotts guy to cancel but apparently the message didn't get conveyed because somebody came this morning to treat our lawn from Scotts. I was getting dressed so I asked fTf if he would go out and talk to him but he refused. I was very angry (but was not disrespectful) because I expected fTf to be more assertive. This is a part of his personality that I don't like. It causes me to not respect him. I think this is a major problem for me.

How did you express your anger?

I said "Alright, I'll do it". Afterwards, i told him that it really bothered me.

How did you tell him that it bothered you?

What was his response?

Yea, well canceling with a lawn treatment company is sometimes like trying to cancel a gym membership.
Certified mail, 30 days written notice etc...

This is one of our favorite weekend activities! It is great fun to look at new houses.

That was a huge love buster, fc, and would fall under selfish demands. Just because you want him to do something does not mean he is inclined to do it. It is ok to ask, but he should not be punished when he says no.

I just said that it really bothered me that he wouldn't go out there and talk to him. He said "I just got up"

haha true enough, and multiple follow up phone calls telling you what a happier person you will be if you keep your membership

I don't feel like I punished him. I just said that it bothered me

Ok, but you weren't went enthusiastic about doing it your self either, and it shows.

A better response would have been "can we negotiate this?"
Both of you had your reasons for not wanting to do it. With negotiation, you would have come up with a better solution that neither of you resented.

You can make a request that he do it, but remember, if it is really a request then he can say "no."

I'm glad you posted this. This is one of those very tricky situations that can be difficult to navigate.

Yes, I should have said "it would really mean a lot to me if you would take care of this".

And what if he still said "No"? What would your response be then?

So the doctor prescribed Zoloft 1 25mg tablet per day for the first week then 2 25mg tablets per day after that. However, insurance would only cover 1 tablet per day so I still don't have any meds. The doctor has to call the insurance company and hash it out with them I guess! Should hear back in a couple of days

Have the dr. prescribe 50 mg pills, and cut them in half first week. Pretty standard.

As long as you have a doc who follows through on his clinical rationalizations, it should end up being covered.