Hey everyone, this is my first time posting on here. I just can�t stop thinking about my Wife�s EA, and was hoping someone on here could give me some advice. First, I will tell you a condensed version of my story. My wife and I have been married with children for 17 years, and for a good part of that we have had to work opposite shifts. Luckily the last 10 years she has been part time, and only works 3 days a week. last summer she moved areas in her job, and had a new boss. I will call him �Ted�. So she starts talking about �Ted� all the time, Ted this, Ted that. I don�t think much of it, and then I start noticing that she is looking really nice to go to work. I usually see her for about an hour before she goes, and she is looking pretty hot. So I start teasing her, and saying you look a little too hot for work. She says she just dresses up because it makes her feel good about herself. Anyways, all summer long I have to hear stories about �Ted�, and it starts to bother me when she tells me how long she spends talking to him in his office. She say�s �it�s not like I can get in trouble for not working, because he�s my boss, and he�s fun to talk to�.
So last November we plan a little �Vegas� get away together, and get a babysitter for the kids for a few days. On our drive, she keeps bringing him up, so I tell her that I think he has a thing for her. She gets a little defensive, and say�s �He is just a friend�. Then she tells me that she just likes talking to him because he is �Mentally Stimulating�. Needless to say, that was the wrong thing for me to hear, because at that point my radar finally went off. So I started really digging in with more questions, and I find out that �Ted� is single, and in his early 40�s, which is only a few years older than my wife. She then proceeds to tell me that he is pretty good looking, and that she basically has a crush on him. I was devastated, and the whole trip turned out to be a Q and A session where she divulged a bunch of information about things they talk about. I find out that he always makes degrading remarks about me, and that he is always making in appropriate comments to my wife. For example, one day she was in his office, and she was adjusting her shirt, and he said �you better be careful, or people are going to think we are messing around in here�. Another time she was bending over picking something up, and he said � Don�t make me say something dirty�. Anyway there are a ton of other examples that I won�t give here. After the trip I ask her to Please keep their conversations to only �Work related topics�, and she says I am over reacting, and that I just don�t want her to have friends. After some convincing, she agrees to keep the conversation work related.
So a few weeks go by, and it is really hard on me when she is at work, because all I can think about, is what is going on while I am home watching kids. I question her quite often, and she says she hasn't talked to him. Then one day she admits that she has been talking to him, and that she told him that it would probably not be a good idea for me and him to meet, because I don�t like him. He says to her, �Is it wrong that I like knowing that he is mad�? Then she proceeds to tell him that the reason I am mad, is that she told me that she thinks he is attractive. I could not believe that she basically told him to his face that she thinks he is good looking and attractive. So, I blew up, and did all the things that I know now are �Love Busters�. I was just so hurt, I felt so unwanted and so betrayed. We fought pretty good about the situation, and then she agreed to discontinue any friendship with him, and it just so happened that she was going to have a bunch of time off over Christmas where we could work on things.
Over the next month, we were able to work on our relationship, and we both talked about changes that needed to be made on both ends. I tell her that I will put extra effort into making her feel beautiful, and helping out around the house more. When she goes back to work, she promises to tell me if she talks to him at all, and honestly I felt like she was so much more open with me. I told her that I felt really vulnerable, because if she continued the friendship, it would really hurt me. So every week or so, I would ask her if she had talked to him, and whenever I did, she would get defensive and say I just don't want her to have friends. I tell her I don't mind if she has friends, but I view him as a direct threat to our marriage, and I tell her that I am not okay with her being friends with him at all. Over the next few months, I continue to ask her if she has seen or talked to him, and she tells me that I am being paranoid, and that she would never do that to me. Through this time period, I tell her how lonely I feel, and I don't understand why i feel so distant from her, even though I am putting so much extra effort into loving her more.
Over the next few months, I feel so alone, and don't understand why I can't stop thinking about her wanting another man. She assures me that she has not been talking to him at all, and that he doesn't even hang around her area anymore. One day, I start looking at Text messages on our bill, and i notice a particular number over an over. In fact one night there was nearly 100 messages to this number, and it went all the way until 1:30 am. So I think it must be a girl friend of hers from work, so I call the number, and a Man answers. Needless to say, I fell apart inside. I sent a text to my wife, and said are you true and faithful to me in all things?, and she replied by saying "That's a funny question". She then admits that it was Ted's number, and that she didn't tell me because she wanted to protect me, and she knew I would over react. I counted over 1,000 texts between them over the last two months. She still insists that he is just a friend.
After a couple long nights, she opens up to me and tells me the content of some of the texts. She tells me that she was trying to get him to go to lunch with her, but he would say "No, because I don't think I could keep my hands off you" then she would reply "Don't you think you can control yourself"?, to which he would reply "I don't want to control myself". I am sure there are a lot of details that she left out, but the bottom line is, she said she recognized that his true intentions were physical, and she said she started to feel like a piece of meet. She said at that point she decided not to text him anymore, and I could see from the phone bill that there was definitely a date where it seemed to stop.
Sorry to be so long winded, but I just wanted to get most of the details out there. Bottom line to all of this mess, is I feel so betrayed,deceived, and lied to. I feel like i can't trust anything she says anymore. I think back to those times where I felt so lonely and distant from her, and it was right in the time she was texting him every night.
It has been just over a month since i found out, and I still think about it everyday. I just want to feel normal again. We had some very good talks over the last month, and she tells me that she loves me, and promises that she is done being friends with him. I want to believe her so bad, but I just can't stop wondering when it will happen again. I don't know if I can handle another round of this. She agreed to go see a marriage counselor, and we have been a couple times, but I feel frustrated because she complains that I keep living in the past, and that she is over it and ready to move on. I say "Well it must be nice to be you". I on the other hand am forced to live with it all day long everyday. Anyway, I have been reading posts on here for a month or so, and I have been really impressed with the knowledge you guys have. Please advise me on what i should do from this point, and how do I heal from the pain I feel. I feel so unwanted as a husband.

Welcome to MB.

She needs to quit that job.

Have you read the Exposure thread?

Please read all of theses.
SAA-Start Here

FACTS-
Your wife is wayward and is in a deep emotional affair at a minimum, and 99.9% chance it went physical.
The affair is still active and is highly entrenched.
She has extremely poor boundaries around men.
Never believe a single thing a wayward says to you, they lie, lie, lie.
This is textbook affair that has been repeated on this forum endlessly.
She is addicted to the high, she will not give up the affair without a fight or a sudden conscience(EXPOSRUE) moment.
You will be on a roller coaster of emotions.

TO DO-
Read up on Snooping and Exposure, and execute same.
Don't be afraid to act.
Listen to the veterans on here.
DO NOT go to a marriage counselor, that WILL kill your marriage(unless it is Dr. Harley based)

RR18,

The "boss" needs to be exposed at work and fired.

God Bless
Gamma

I agree she doesn't have the best boundaries around men. She admits she is a flirt, and gets along better with guys than the girls at work.

She refuses to leave her job, because she has been there 15 years, and makes pretty good money now even being part time. We are on a very tight budget, and barely make it month to month. After i found out about the texting, she sent him a text that basically said that she was done, and they could no longer be friends. She still see's him occasionally at work, but says he doesn't say a word to her. I should add, that after I found out, I called him and asked him to not talk to her anymore. I believe that they are not talking anymore, because my wife says she feels bad for how rude she feels by not even saying hi to him anymore. She also says that when he comes and talks to someone in her area, he doesn't even look her way, or say hi.
The one thing we still get hung up on though, is she refuses to admit that he is anything more than a friend. When I tell her that you don't hide conversations from anyone who is just a friend, she says I am over reacting, and that I just don't see it the same way she does. She also swears that there was nothing physical that ever happened whatsoever, and maybe I am stupid, but I believe her.

As far as Exposure, I told a close friend of hers at work, and she was very upset with me. That is the only person i told. I have been on a roller coaster of emotions the last 6 months.

The only hope i have, that tells me that things will get better, is that she was very remorseful that she hurt me, and she admits that what she did was wrong,(even though he was just a friend)she will always add to that. She has been so much more loving to me, and it really feels like she is making a full effort to get back to where we need to be. Right now it just feels like i am the hang up. It is me that can't stop thinking about all the details. I am probably being naive, but it seems like she is sincere.

You came here asking for help and advise on what to do.

But you decide to ignore the advise and are choosing to do nothing, and everything will just work out.

Hope is your strategy? Great plan. You sound so much like so many others just like you.

Good luck!!!!

My wife's affair was very much like your wife's affair. I exposed it in the workplace, and her boss was removed from his job.

There is good reason why you are not finding peace. Nobody in your situation would. The affair needs to be exposed and extraordinary precautions put in place that make affairs impossible. Your wife will have to leave that job if the OM doesn't leave first. Your wife needs to become totally transparent to you, so that you know all there is to know about her and her ability to harbor a secret second life is destroyed.

RR, the problem is that your wife is having a physical affair with this man. The way to kill the affair is to quietly get the evidence and expose the affair. That will motivate her to leave the job. Sadly, you don't have a marriage otherwise. She can't continue to work there and stay married because recovery will be impossible.

So please go get solid evidence of her physical affair and come back here. We will give you next steps.

Your wife is like an addict. Everyone she sees him, she is getting a high from her favorite drug. As long as she continues to work with him, she will remain addicted, and your marriage has no hope.

I'm not ignoring advice. It is just hard for me to tell her that she has to leave her job. It just seems like that would be me controlling her. Believe me, I have mentioned that many times, and she says that her situation is different, and she will have No Contact with him whatsoever. I have absolutely no proof that anything more than the texting happened. I also have no proof that she has continued anykind of communication. I have read all of the steps, in SAA, and i am definitely not as versed in it as you guys, but honestly I am still in plan A limbo. I need to just shut up and watch, and make sure nothing starts up again. I don't feel like I have evidence to just go exposing her boss. Believe me, I would love nothing more than to see him lose his job over the deal, but everything i know, is just from stuff she has told me. I am confused on how to execute some of these things. Should I still expose what I have just to get it out there, even if I can't really back it up with hard evidence.

My wife has been very open and transparent with me since "D-day". She honestly doesn't have any free time that I don't know about, and I have access to her phone and Ipad, and I check the history often. Right now I just want her to see me as a loving and understanding husband. I don't want to push her away by being angry and controlling.

Another detail I will bring up, and I know this might not be important, but me and my wife both have never had sex with anyone else. She has very good values, and I was her first. I just don't see anyway that it could have been physical. There is just not any time that is unaccounted for.

RR18,

I agree with your W that she should not be leaving her job, the OM is in a position of authority over her and should be the one leaving.

Go to personnel and file a complaint, threaten a lawsuit, the OM may have other sexual harassment complaints against him and this one will sink his ship. I would also expose to the OMs family and church etc.

Your WW cannot have continued contact with the OM, you need to get a polygraph for your WW because 95% says it was physical too, kissing at least.

God Bless
Gamma

Melody, Should I continue to ask her if she has talked to him at work, or just shut up? I don't really know what avenue to use to gain evidence. I thought about putting a mic in her purse, because she never goes anywhere without it, and also GPS. I don't have time or money to hire a PI. Any other ideas for gaining evidence. This man is from out of state, and doesn't have any close family. I have been FB stalking him for months. If I was to file a complaint at his work, what would I tell them? What if I did that, and my wife denied the whole thing to protect him?

RR18,

If I was to file a complaint at his work, what would I tell them? What if I did that, and my wife denied the whole thing to protect him?

I would make that part of the just compensation your WW should give you for having the affair.

The reason OM has to go is that your WW will be triggered everytime she sees him. It�s like how an alcoholic cannot work at a bar.

There is a good chance this OM has done this over and over again, and is keeping your WW in reserve. You need to speak with personnel and send an email to the company president. Just do it.

God Bless
Gamma

He is her boss, and he now just "ignores" her? Does that make any sense to you?

You've read SAA� you obviously can see that they had a long and fun friendship with lots of opportunity to become close, and now they have BOTH professed their attraction for each other. What does Dr. Harley point out about that in SAA?

Yes, one of them is going to have to leave that job. But give it a couple of days first so that you can see what you can find.

Continue to Plan A her. AND while you are doing a fabulous Plan A, you have to snoop as if your marriage depends on it. Snooping means that you are not going to tell your wife.

Purchase a Voice Activated Recorder and hide it in her car, and hide another one somewhere in your home where you suspect that she speaks with him (you can find normal time patterns by looking at the old phone bills).

She may have an affair phone. Also, there are all sorts of apps out there that allow people to chat over the internet and it won't show up as a text message. Hide a GPS in her car. Purchase an app to track her cell phone so that you can SEE all of the activity that she is having, and what she is saying. There is lots of info here in the Operation Investigate section of this forum.

When you get the goods (and you will within a day or two at most), then come back here and we can help you with full blown exposure.

The great thing in your favor, with as much as a scumbag as this other man sounds like, there is a very good chance that he will dump your wife on the day of exposure.

Gamma,the thing you just mentioned about him probably doing this before, triggered a memory of something my W told me. She said one day she got to work, and OM came walking up to her and said walk with me. She said they went down to the cafeteria, and wandered around a bit, and then headed back. On the was back she asked what that was all about, and he said "Oh nothing, there are just some girls that are spreading rumors about me, and I wanted them to see me walking with you". My wife told me that like it was no big deal, and I saw red flags popping up all over the place. I think he has had some kind of trouble like this before.

Also, I have sent my wife articles on Emotional Affairs, and it makes her mad, and she says she doesn't think what she did is an affair at all. I don't know how many times I have heard her say He was just a friend. I really believe in her mind she doesn't think what she did was really that bad. She knows that it hurt me, but I just need to get over it.

Good that you have his FB name. TODAY go to his FB and copy down the names of all of his "friends" there.

Stop asking her and start snooping. Put some spyware on her phone that has a built in gps and a mic. Get the evidence,

And go to the OMs Facebook page today and copy all his Facebook contacts into a text doc. Do not put this off!

Blindsighted, Originally it would not have made sense that she could avoid him at work, because I thought he was like her supervisor. It turns out he is like a department head that is her bosses boss, and the only reason that they were talking, is because she would come up with problems to bring up to him, and then hang out for 15 to 30 minutes just BS'ing. She said that he won't even say hi to her anymore, and the only reason I believe that, is that when she says it, she sounds disappointed.

It is an act put on for you. She essentially sees her affair partner at work every day. It is like the alcoholic who goes into the bar every day and drinks. He changes the name of his drinks to "business drinks" and then tells people he is sober.

Rr, why don't you just READ the text messages?

I would also check to see if she has another phone in hiding. I don't believe the affair ended, it just went further underground. Also, they can use office phones all day long.

RoughRock,
Actions, man. Come back with a plan. You keep bringing up excuses or more "red flags", etc.

You have been given great advice, use it and develop a plan. SNOOPING should be a priority. VAR, GPS, Apps, keyboard tracker, etc. all cheap and easy.

Meanwhile Plan A, you don't EVER tip your hand to a wayward. She is addicted, and in an affair, of course she is going to lie to you and downplay everything.

Waywards only admit to one or 2 levels below what actually happened(and if they are "moral" it will be more levels of lying).
In other words, just friends = emotional affair or even kissing, out for drinks = hotel sex session, you get the picture.

No one communicates to someone as much as your wife did, and not have a deep connection.

Melody, I sure wish I could have read the text messages. During the time she was texting him, I was actually checking her phone occasionally, but she was deleting her texts from him before she got home. That is why i didn't originally see it. The uneasy feeling I felt eventually led me to checking the cell phone bill. I tried to find out if I could restore the texts somehow, but it seemed impossible. As far as the phone calls, she originally told me that she only called him one time, and that it was awkward, and she only talked for a few minutes. I went way back in the archives, and sure enough, way back in March it shows that she called him, and it was only about 5 minutes. If she has a secret phone, it would have to have been acquired after D-day, because they were texting a ton on her regular phone. Like I said before, she told me that she stopped because she could see that he wanted to got to the next level,and it scared her. I could see a definite date, April 29th, that there was no more texts. That is why i think that most of what she has told me is true. I don't believe she told me all the details, but everything she said adds up when I research it.

NebDane, I am going to take the snooping to another level, and get a GPS/Mic, and just see where that leads me. Some of this will take some time and planning. I said the same thing to her that you mentioned. I told her that no one communicates that much without talking about some pretty deep things. I am not stupid, and believe me for the last month, my mind has been filling in every text message with the worst possible content. I honestly look at each text as an individual betrayal, because she knew how much pain i was already in from the previous incidents. She knew without a doubt that she should not be doing what she was doing, and she still chose to do it. It still hurts me to think about that.

April the 29th is likely he date that she went further underground with her affair. You can read all go her deleted texts with a device that is sold by brick house security. I would buy the device and just present it to her and ask for her phone. I assure you that she will flip out because she doesn't want you to know how far the affair went.

I looked into the brick house security device, and my wifes phone is one that it specifically mentions won't work. it is an old verizon model phone. I think i need to get her a new Iphone as a gift, just for future snooping purposes, plus they have GPS. I do like the idea of telling her I bought one, and see how she reacts to knowing I am about to read all the texts.

VAR hidden in the car she drives will probably yield all you need to know and then some. Around $60 at BestBuy. Be prepared for the filth you will hear.

You realize that she is lying to you repeatedly, right? There is NO WAY this has ended. She is playing you, maybe even gaslighting you now.

What you describe is not unique, it is in fact the exact script we see all the time.

Meanwhile, be calm, cool, collected(James Bond). Don't engage in discussions about it anymore, don't have angry outbursts, just be a great husband. (this will be hard as hell)
Your job is to put her at ease (so you can snoop), she will slip up, they all do.

RR18,

Since he is your WWs bosses boss then the inappropriateness is even greater, what is stopping you from speaking with personnel?

BTW just mentioning a polygraph will cause some wayward spouses to spill.

God Bless
Gamma

Affairs are addictions and your wife is an addict. Isn't her behaviour exactly what you would expect from an alcoholic who is still working in the bar?

Just like any addict, your wife, in her own mind, has found ways to justify and minimize her hurtful behaviour.

That is the fog.

Gamma, Shouldn't I wait to speak to personnel, until after I have acquired some evidence that is more concrete?
I actually did mention a polygraph last week, because i had read that on here, and she absolutely refused. She said you might as well just divorce me, because there is no way I will do that. I said "If you have nothing to hide, why do you care". She says she views it as an insult, and she can't even believe that I would ask that. Plus she says that she doesn't trust them as far as being accurate. Then she repeats over and over, that she has told me everything that there is to tell.

STOP asking her anything about the, More Than Just Friends aspect.

Get her a new gift cell phone with the spy gear already installed and hidden.

Is the cell phone bill on your account? Then just have the new phone get her same phone number.

Did you install several VAR's yet? One in her car and another wherever she goes in the house for some privacy? That can usually be the bathroom or the bedroom.

You already have your answer that there is, was and still will be more going on behind your back by the way she reacted to your request for a polygraph.

Stop asking her ANY MORE Questions. Snoop in secret.

Do those important steps NOW!!!

LTL

I will purchase a VAR sometime this week. I will place it in her car.
So to answer a question I asked before, should I wait a while to report the incident to his/her work? Maybe I just need to lay low for a few weeks and gather all the info I can?

Get evidence that would convince a jury first and then keep it in a safe place. What Dr. Harley also recommends is that you give your wife 30 days to leave the job before reporting it to the authorities.

Another question....I don't really have anyone to confide in. Would it be smart to tell a close friend about all the details, or just keep it to myself. I just feel like I am going to go crazy keeping everything to myself. Also, I read in another thread about anti depressants, and was wondering if that would be a good idea for me to do, at least while I am going through all this. I just can't focus on anything in my life. I am useless at work, and I just want to feel normal again. I have felt like a zombie for the last 6 months.

Change that from getting one sometime this week to getting one today and installed today.

It will only take a few days to find out something. Then, you go full time exposure.

You need to find something convincing, not just your gut feelings.

But, do not delay. Every day things may get more deeply involved.

LTL

Go see a Dr. and get the AD's. Dr. Harley recommends Wellbutrin.

LTL

You get through this with eating right, sleeping and exercise. Melatonin is a good supplemental sleep aide. I'll bet you have lost weight and are not sleeping well.

You also can supplement with getting perscriptions, but that will take even more discipline to not get hooked and come off at a later date.

Confiding in a friend is a good idea, to help get the emotions out.
This needs to be someone you trust(not a female), and must be someone you can rely on. You may need them to be something more in the future.

Here's the plan:

1.) Get your evidence of the affair and keep it safe
2.) Read up on Plan A and stay in it. No love busters. And don't ask her about an affair, because she will probably make it harder for you to find evidence. So keep quiet about it for now.
3.) Meanwhile, create a list of your exposure targets: close friends, family members, clergy.
4.) Once you have the evidence, then you expose. Do it all at once, wide and far.
5.) Give her 30 days to leave the job. If she refuses, expose it there,too.
6.) No love busters throughout this time.
7.) ADs would be very helpful for you right now. See your doctor about a prescription if you're struggling with depression.

LWFH, I do like that plan, and I am going to try and get a VAR asap, but something you mentioned caught my attention you said "You need to find something convincing, not just your gut feelings." I am going to do my best to find something convincing, but as far as my gut feeling goes, it was screaming that something was wrong before i found out about the text messages, but the last few weeks my gut tells me that she has really changed. I am not going to be naive and not keep snooping, but I have to say I don't feel the same loneliness I felt back then. Even in the midst of her texting him, we were having plenty of sex, 3 to 4 times a week. We have always had a good sex life, and during the months she was texting him behind my back, even though the sex was still good, I felt so alone even when we were together. The last few weeks, I don't feel alone anymore, and I have noticed a change in the way she treats me. There is an emotional connection between us now, that was not there before. Believe me, I am in a state of mind right now, that I don't even trust my own mother, but I can't ignore those feelings. Maybe she is gaslighting me like was previously mentioned, but either way, I am going to stick to a plan, and execute it. First thing I will be doing is eliminating all love busters, and becoming the best husband she could ever imagine.

This should be all the proof you need to understand this isn't over. She is playing you and any person telling the truth would be running at the opportunity to clear their name, especially since you've been hounding her so much.

You need to follow the program and wake up. The most important part of PLAN A is to bust up the A and you are failing in this aspect miserably.

It's common to be afraid of her reaction ut don't be. I know this is fresh but do you like this feeling? If your wWW gets upset and leaves what are you really losing at this point? A lying spouse who is making you look like a fool? Act and get in control of your situation, trust me it will empower you and show your wife you care and will do anything to save your marriage.

You can't go wrong by snooping to find out what's going on. Dr. Harley has said many times that it's very easy to fall in love with someone if we allow that person to meet our ENs. That's why it is SO important to avoid talking about personal things with the opposite sex. It's important to eliminate flirting and make sure we are completely transparent to the other spouse.

Even if we do all these things, we can still be attracted to someone. Dr. Harley says if we find ourselves attracted to someone of the OS, we should make sure we don't see that person anymore...even if no affair happened!

He recommends this strongly because it is so easy to have an affair, and affairs are so destructive and painful that it's worth doing all we can to protect ourselves from having one.

Snoop like a bloodhound. Make sure she doesn't see this website.

RR,
Your emotions are a mess, and dragging you in different directions.

Everyone on this forum is telling you the same thing. It is ok to use the board as a dumping ground for your thoughts/emotions, but don't get hung up on the emotions taking you away from the plan. Use the logic that is given to you here, the veterans are the clear thinkers, you are not a clear thinker right now.
One step at a time, get the snooping done.
Be a charming husband, no love busters.( it is hard work to control yourself in this situation but you must)

I already mentioned to her that I was reading stuff on this website, and she told me I needed to quit living in the past and move on like her. I very highly doubt she would ever find it on her own. She says she feels like god has forgiven her for what she did, and that she is over it. She always says that she knows that she hurt/betrayed me, and that I have nothing to worry about anymore.
I am going to do exactly what was mentioned, and stick to a detailed snooping plan, and in the meantime I will be a loving husband. If there is something there, it will rear it's ugly head with time. I just need to be disciplined and patient, which is much easier said then done. Thank you for the advice and support today. It feels good to talk about these things, because I feel like I have been forced to live in this fog by myself. I found this website originally because I can't stop thinking and reading about things. Before this happened, I had never even heard of an emotional affair. A few months ago I started reading articles about what an EA was, and I do believe they can be just as painful as a PA, because I have been through the ringer, and I am very tired.

Everything she is saying to you is straight out of the wayward gospel.
Repeated here time and time again. This is the script you hear about, and she is reading from it verbatim. It almost sounds like the gaslighting script.

She wants you to stop, so she can continue her affair or not find out the filthy truth of it.

Your wife is going to work every day and having an affair with this man. She has found a new way to communicate with him outside of work, tough. Probably a burner phone. And you don't sense it because she is doing a good job of placating you and covering the evidence.

Anyway, as long as she works with the OM, all the need meeting and lovebuster avoiding in the world will not save your marriage. Recovery is IMPOSSIBLE as long as they work together. IMPOSSIBLE.

So if you want to save this you are going to have to get the evidence, expose the affair and demand she leave the job.

Sometime this week?

Gosh no, we did not mean to lay low for a few weeks to gather evidence. We meant a couple of DAYS, which means that you have to get the snooping stuff in place NOW.

Every hour that you allow this to continue NARROWS the chance that you will be able to win her back. Every HOUR that she has to think about her love for HIM means that your LoveBank with your wife diminishes while his increases.

It shouldn't take more than a couple of days to get the evidence.

So, I got home tonight, and was hit with something unexpected. My wife's work is doing a temporary layoff because they don't have enough work. I was planning on getting a VAR and putting it in her car. She could be off until August. What should I do?

Continue to follow through with the steps advised.

What???

Do you think contact will now stop just because she will not be possibly working thete for a brief amount of time?

LTL

In simpler terms. Put the VAR in her car.

Buy her a new cell phone pre-loaded with spyware.

Install a keylogger as suggested previously on the home computer she uses.

Now, when they do not mingle daily, she may try to amp up other means of connecting.

You continue to Plan A with Zero Love Busters.

LTL

So, last night my wife and I had a talk, and I don't know if this was wrong to do or not, and before I say what I did, just know that I was loving and calm in our discussion, and I was making sure to come across as a loving husband. The reason I say that I don't know if what I did was wrong, is because I kind of told a fib. I told my wife that I had come across some software that will make it possible to read her texts, Which I found out yesterday, that with her phone, this is impossible, but she doesn't know it can't be done. So I tell her that I have figured out how to view them, and I just want to give her the opportunity to tell me before hand if there is anything I am going to read, that she didn't tell me before. Instantly I could see in her eyes that she had concerns. Then she questioned how I could do it, and I had a brilliant sounding answer about how to access the phones internal SIM card, anyway, she must have believed me, because she started telling me all sorts of other details that she did not mention before. Before she would tell me each thing, she would say "Now promise you wont think different of me". Anyway she ended up going into a lot more detail about the content in the texts, and was specific to certain nights. Some of it was very painful for me to hear, but I felt like she was telling me all she could. She honestly believed that I would be reading these very things today, so she wanted to have the opportunity to warn me upfront.
So from what I learned last night, I have come to the conclusion that they did not have sex, and that they didn't kiss, but that my wife was definitely on the way there. She had told me before that she had been trying to get him to go to lunch with her, but this time she went into more detail about how she even asked for his address, so she could have a nap at his place after work before driving home(Yeah right, basically can I come over and have sex with you). She said he refused to give the address to her, and that he told her that if she did come over, he would not control himself. She said she was asking him these things to see if all he really wanted their friendship for, was for sex. So she said she asked him "if I asked you to have sex with me, Would you"? She said that he didn't answer at all, so after a while she replied "I guess not". She said that he had told her that he did not want things to go any further, because he was afraid he could lose his job.
So, at this point I have come to the conclusion that a PA did not take place, but I am dying inside knowing that my wife was pursuing it, and basically begging the guy to say he would sleep with her. Of course, she just says she wanted to see what he would say, but in my mind she basically told him she was ready to have sex with him. I am completely heart broken, and I can't bare the thought that my wife was willing to throw our marriage away. Even though I do not believe they had sex, it still hurts just as bad knowing some of these details.
So, I was very proud of myself for not reacting at all, and just listening, and being supportive. Believe me, my heart was about to explode, but I kept completely cool. I am still sticking to my plan. I am in full snooping mode. I am going to set up every form of surveillance I can come up with, because in my mind this could flare up again in a second. I want to be ready if and when it does.
Last night I asked her about a No Contact letter, and she says that we already did that through texts, and she didn't think it was necessary. When I insisted, and told her that it would mean a lot to me to know she was willing to do it, she got defensive, and said that I was just being controlling, and that she does not think she needs to do that. I am not stupid, and i know that this means she doesn't want to do it, because she is still basically in love with him. How do I get her to go through the steps of ending an affair, when she won't cooperate with any of them because she thinks I am just trying to degrade her?

Plain and simple - She is lying to you, knowing you would believe her and back off.

I wish I believed her, but I don't. I am sorry. She is doing what most waywards do and that is throw you a few choice crumbs in the hopes that you will back off. There are a few grains of truth in all that and she probably did go to his apartment. The way she communicated with him tells me they did have sex.

I don't see the point of a no contact letter if she still sees him at work.

I agree you should go forward with the snooping and if nothing comes up, to have her take a polygraph.

So what happens in August? She goes back to work with her OM? That is a deal killer.

It is clear she is trying to gaslight you. You made a tactical mistake as well because she told you some stuff and if you don't come up with the truth by reading her messages she will know you were bluffing.

C'mon dude, if a woman you were very attracted to asked you to have sex and go to your house would you turn her down? Her story doesn't add up and I am pretty convinced this has been a full-on PA.

You need to get proof, install spyware on the computer and put VAR in the living room, stick it to the bottom of the computer desk (velcro), etc.

If she is unwilling to write the NC letter and go full NC there is a reason.

Please read this. Please Explain Gaslighting

Think about that one. Allowing her to continue to work with this rat and enabling the affair is the thing that is degrading.

polygraph.

And take that phone somewhere to recover the texts. Brickhouse?

I already looked into the brickhouse idea, and they cannot recover deleted texts on her type of phone. I mentioned the polygraph, and she absolutely refuses, and says how degrading it would be for me to make her do that. At this point all I can do is go into full surveillance mode. It is taking everything I have to not explode. It is hard to cope right now. I know you guys believe without a doubt that they had sex, but I still do not believe it happened.

RR18,

One other approach is to meet with the OM and tell him you know everything, but want to hear his side of the story. You might have to promise not to go to personnel in order to get the truth from him.

I'm taking that approach with OM2, and plan meeting with him about a month from now, when he attends an annual event. I might have to promise no retribution in order to get him to talk.

God Bless
Gamma

You might be able to get what you need via snooping, but there may come a time when you may have to insist on her getting a polygraph. She should WELCOME a polygraph if she is telling the truth because it will exonerate her. That is how I would position it. Let her know you don't believe her story and want to give her an opportunity to exonerate herself and give you peace of mind.

When she sees you are serious, she will agree to do it because she will have no defense.

I don't know much about Polygraph test. How accurate are they, and what kind of questions should I ask her. Did you have sex with OM? any idea how much they cost?

They run around 450-600. They are very accurate, but the most value comes from what happens BEFORE the test. You would hand her a list of all of your questions and ask her to come clean BEFORE the test. Tell her this is her chance to come clean one last time but you expect her to pass the test. She won't know which questions will be on the test, though.

Typically, the WS sings like a canary before the test and you get the full truth at that time. The polygraph will only validate and confirm what she told you. Most DO pass it, but most come up with "additional" facts before the test.

But FIRST, see what comes up in your snooping.

RR,
Almost everyone of the betrayed spouses on the forum (including me), believed that their spouse didn't/wouldn't have a physical affair/emotional affair and were lied too.
Your situation is no different.
Snoop like it is your job. Get it done, VAR, GPS, keyboard tracker, new phone, etc.
Keep control of yourself, be calm, cool, James Bond.
Do not talk about it anymore with her, DO NOT EVER reveal your sources of info.
If you can't find anything by snooping, then insist on a polygraph.

Update on my situation. Through a couple wise tips that I got from you guys on here, I was able to drum up much more information about what happened. Not only did my wife tell me a lot more of the little details, but I was able to use some of those details to contact the OM, and trick him into giving me more info. I have been able to match up and check things that make a lot of sense now. Despite what some might believe on here, I am positive that the affair never became physical.
One thing I learned was that my wife was the main initiator in the texting. She said it was exciting to talk to him, despite knowing that I would be upset. Looking back through two months of texts, It was always my wife that would send the first text, and on some occasions she would send multiple texts before he would respond. My wife made multiple attempts to get him to go to lunch with her, but he always refused, because he had made a boundary that he would not go to lunch or out to dinner with any employee. My wife said at that point it became kind of a game in her head, to see if she could convince him to go. The timeline to everything she told me added up perfect, and I could see that nothing happened as far as ever meeting outside of work.
So with this in mind, I am faced with other problems.
#1. My wife does not consider what she did to be an affair at all. She still stands by her statement, that he was never anything more than a friend, and she never did anything wrong. This kills me, because I have suffered for the last 6 months with worry and heartache.
#2. I am getting to a point where I am starting to resent her. When I am with her, I sometimes catch myself thinking about how she could be so cold and heartless that she could continue texting and talking to him despite knowing what kind of mental pain I was going through. I feel like I am starting to love her less.
#3. She seems very unwilling to work on our relationship through MB program. I have showed her different articles, and told her about how we can make things great in our marriage if we will work on these things. She resists, and won�t put any effort into it. She thinks everything is fine, and that I need to just quit dwelling on what happened and move on.
#4. I have been doing really good at avoiding �Love Busters�. Yesterday, even though I was really upset, and mad at her, when she got back from the store with our daughters, I went up and gave her a hug and asked how her day was. The reason this is a problem, is because I am getting sick of bending over backwards for her all the time. It seems like I am working 24 hours a day to keep her happy, and she doesn�t really even appreciate my efforts.
Anyway, right now I am feeling discouraged. I don�t really feel like my wife is sorry for what happened. She really believes in her mind that what happened was not an affair. I just don�t know where to go from here.

RR, I don't believe anything the OM has told you because even the dumbest cheaters know how to coordinate a story. And they have all day to do this at work. I would start a campaign to get her out of that job because that is the only way your marriage is going to ever recover. Start by exposing her affair to the workplace, your family and friends. Its ok if she wants to deny the affair. Many alcoholics, for example, deny they are alcoholics. But you can't tolerate her staying there because this will get deeper if she doesn't leave.

Your wife will never want to work on recovery as long as she works with the OM because she is fogged out. She has already told you that she chases this man. Eventually she will get him if she doesn't get out of there.

I would start by sending a certified letter to a key VP and the Director of Human Resources. When your exposures are finished, tell her she will have to leave the job and end contact with the OM or this will lead to divorce. You don't have a marriage otherwise and the affair will only become more entrenched as time goes on.

Send this letter to your close friends and family:

Dear friends and family,

I am writing you this message because you are an important person in the lives of xxxx and I. I am saddened to have discovered that WW has been carrying on an affair with her boss, a man named xxxxx xxxxx who resides in xxxxxx. He is also married and has young children . This affair is breaking my heart.

She refuses to end the affair. I want our marriage to recover from this affair. If you have any influence on my babe, please do what you can to get her to stop this affair. I want to stay married, but the affair must end.

As our friends and family, I am asking that you use your influence with xxxx to persuade her to end her affair and try to work on our marriage. Our marriage can be salvaged if she would only end the affair. Please support her in doing the right thing. Please support our marriage.

I would so appreciate your support and prayers.

Warmest regards,

The only problem I have is I do not think that it was ever physical, and I don't have a problem with modifying the text to at least address that the relationship was inappropriate, but it is hard to go and expose my wife, when she hasn't talked to the guy in 2 months, and is making an effort to change. I am confident that it is over between them, but at the same time I am not stupid, and I realize that it could start up again in a heartbeat. My wife won't be back to work there until September,so I just don't know how I feel about exposing this right now.

So she's going back to work where the OM is?

Don't you agree it's an emotional affair?

Your wife had an affair. An affair is chacterized by a romantic relationship, not by whether or not it was physcial. She has already confessed to this.

If you don't expose it, she will go back there and just resume her affair. Do you want that to happen? You do realize you have NO CHANCE if she goes back?

RR,
There are so many red flags with your wife still, she is so foggy and acting like a true wayward. All waywards lie!!!!! They all say "quit dwelling in the past",etc

You are not in recovery, because your wife is not following any plan, she is telling you to get over it, nothing happened. Spoken like a true wayward in an affair. No wayward wants to be held accountable for their actions or pain they caused, that is classic affair/wayward mentality.

Send the exposure letter.

RR,
First you say your wife is not putting in any effort, doesn't appreciate your efforts, etc.
Then you say she is making an effort, as an excuse to not expose.

You need to stand up for your marriage and expose the filth, if you want to save it.

Brainhurts: I absolutely believe it was an emotional affair. I believe any relationship that you hide from your spouse is a betrayal of trust, and is cheating.

NebDane: When I said she wasnt making an effort, I meant that she is not on board with following the MB program. She did make an effort when I am talking about her ending the relationship. I talked to the OM personally and asked that there be No Contact, and my wife gave him a letter demanding No Contact. That was back in the first week of May, and I believe there has been no conversations between them for the last 8 weeks. Also, I feel like she has revealed everything to me. She went into the all kinds of details last weekend that she did not back in May. I was able to confirm the things she told me with actual dates, so although I can never know for sure that I have everything, I am confident that I have a good picture of the whole situation. I do not believe it became a PA.
The reason I have fear of exposure, is because we have made so much progress, and like I mentioned before, back while she was texting him, I felt so alone, and so disconnected from her emotionally. I don't feel that way anymore. She is so much more tuned into my needs. I also saw her truly remorseful, and I believe she knows what she did was wrong. She admits it was wrong to hide things from me,and that the relationship was inappropriate, but she says she still never thought of him as anything more than a friend. We just have very different opinions of what is acceptable as far as a friend goes. She has agreed with me however, that moving forward she should not have friendships with men at all. She has said that she understands now why I was so adamant about it before.
She just does not know anything about MB program, and I am just trying to introduce it to her a little at a time. Last weekend she was willing to sit down with me, and we discussed each one of the "Ending affairs checklist". She committed to me that she will not talk to him under any circumstance.
The only exposure i am thinking I could do right now, would be to send the letter to the director describing the inappropriate relationship, and request that they move one of them to a different department, and warn them to avoid all contact. I just think if I send letters to all my wifes family, and tell them that she is unwilling to end the affair, that it will backfire on me because of all the effort she has already made to end the affair.
I truly believe in her mind, the affair is over, or as she would insist, the friendship is over. With that being said, I am still aware of the danger that still exists. I just want to be really smart about how I handle things.

But this is not a rational belief given the fact they have worked together all this time. This belief is based on your wife's words. And you know she is dishonest.


Feelings are not truth. I know you want to believe her, but you must not go by her words, but by her actions. She has WORKED WITH her boyfriend all these months so it is not believable that there was no contact.


You are now contradicting what you just said. You told us she won't partiicapte in marriage recovery, which means your marriage won't recover. So I don't know what you see here that is "progress." There is no progress if there is no plan. And hope is not a plan.

You have not even taken the first step towards recovery and can't make any progress until that happens. I will just say, as a woman, that your complacent approach reflects a lack of caring. She will think the same when/if her fog ever wears off.

You did have a small hope if you exposed and tried to save your marriage while she is laid off, but all that hope is dashed by your inaction. And of course, the affair will resume when she goes back in September because you have made it clear her job is more important than your marriage.

I don't see how we can help you.

Rather than being smart, I see you being complacent and irrational in some areas. We are giving you tried and true steps for recovery that were developed by Dr Bill Harley, clinical psychologist, and founder of Marriage Builders. Those of us in recovered marriages here used these steps. We can't help you if you refuse to take those important steps.

RR18,

Sorry if you mentioned it, but is there anyone you can speak with about the affair, or are you holding it all inside.

Exposure would allow you to talk openly about your pain and anxiety and would be therapeutic. Particularly since your WW does not think there was an affair and that this mess can simply be forgotten.

God Bless
Gamma

RR,
I get it you are afraid of the reaction from your wife, we all were.
There was a guy on here just a few months ago, who was cautious as you regarding exposure. His wayward wife went absolutely crazy after the exposure(he got locked up in mental institution for a few days). Guess what, when the fog lifted, his wife was grateful and happy that he fought for the marriage.

We all believed the lies(for some period of time) that the wayward and/or the affair partner said, and even defended our wayward spouse. IN THE END, THE LIES ALWAYS COME OUT.

This is exactly where you are, afraid of the reaction of your wife, and stuck in denial.

All the things you tell us your wife is saying reeks of wayward behavior, especially now that you know she was pursuing him for SEX. Can't you see the hypocrisy? She wants you to forget about it, so there will be no accountability.
At the very least she has the worst boundaries around men.

Did you ever expose?

Just to a handful of family members. The reason I haven't updated my post lately, is because I found out a lot of details, that confirmed to me that it was not a PA. There is no way to convince others on this board, so I chose to continue to work through our problems on my own.
I do agree, that an EA can be just as damaging as a PA, because I cannot immagine going through more pain then I have through this. I have so much empathy for others on this forum.
I hope one day I will feel like I can fully trust my wife again.

Good luck using your own program Sir.

I am not using my own program "Sir"...I am learning MB principles and applying them to my marriage. I choose not to post, because people can be cold. I was pretty much told before that I was a coward, and that I do not care about my wife or my family.

So she quit then, right?

Who did you expose to on OM's side?

Has the affair stopped?

Did she write a NC letter? Put EPs in place?

I am 99% sure that it has stopped. Something that I explained before, that nobody believed, is that she ended it on her own before I found the texts. It is a long story, that involves many different factors. Basically, what I know now, is that I was living in plan A for 6 months. After the initial incident that happened in November, I put everything I had into our marriage. I became the husband that I always should have been. Let's just say that for 17 years, I maybe did 2 loads of laundry, and since the beginning of this year, I help every week, and have become quite good at it. My point is, I did everything I could think of to improve our marriage.
The big mistake I made, is that in February, after my wife had been back to work for about a month, I made a statement to her that was something along the lines of "I forbid you to talk to him, or be friends in anyway with him"', (which I still believe that is the way it should have been), but she told me that when I said that, she felt like I was being too controlling. She said that is when she decided to start texting him. What didn't help, is that she had a girl friend at work that was telling her that it is perfectly acceptable to text other guys. So she started to text him, and part of it was rebellion, and to spite me. She said in her mind, he was nothing more than a friend, so she wasn't afraid of it leading to anything inappropriate. She said for the first month or so, it was mindless chatter, and there was never anything inappropriate said, but then he started making comments about how he wished that he could meet a woman like her, and then basically started leading on to the fact that he wanted to be more then friends. That is when they started talking about going to lunch, and he would tell her that if they went to lunch, he wouldn't be able to keep his hands off her. She said at this point it dawned on her that all the warnings I had given her months before, were true. She said she began to feel so guilty that she had let it get to that point.
This is where some very important things started to happen in the background. As I said in my original posts, I had an overwhelming feeling of loneliness, even though I was doing all the right things. Well it just so happened, that I was also doing a lot better spiritually, and I personally believe that when you are living righteously, the spirit can direct you. I started having promptings, that we needed to start praying together as a couple morning and night. She said later, that this was right around the time that he started being more direct about what he really wanted. She said because of all of the things I had been doing to improve our marriage, really had been having an affect on her, even though she knew what she was doing was wrong. She said this is when she decided that she had to put a stop to the situation, before it ended up going too far( in my mind, it had already gone way too far). So she wrote him a letter, that explained how much she loved her family, and that they could no longer be friends. Like I also explained in an earlier post, this is when I noticed the texting stopped cold.
Let me just say that I believe in the power of prayer, and I think all married couples should pray together often. Believe me, we have had many, many discussions about this situation, and we both feel like god had a hand in helping us through. She said if I would have found out about the texts a month earlier, it may not have turned out as good, because she feels like she had to learn for herself, and end things on her own terms.
I know this doesn't fit the MB guidelines perfectly, but believe me there has been a major change of heart on her side. She was truly remorseful, and our relationship has improved so much. I am the big hold up now, because I am unwilling to forgive her, and trust again, but she has done so much to be deserving of forgiveness. I have just been too prideful and hurt to accept her apologies. There is so much more to this story, that just can't be explained on a forum, so that is why I decided to not post anymore. Nobody really understands the whole situation like I do. Deep down inside, I know that we are going to be okay now, I just have too work through my issues.
I don't know how much of this made sense, but I hope it explains it a little bit better.

Reconciliation and forgiveness are possible through what Dr. Harley calls Just Compensation. She must take extraordinary precautions to make sure an affair doesn't happen again. That means no hidden e-mail accounts or phones, no secret passwords on her phone and computer, and total transparency.

She must eliminate independent behavior and opposite sex friendships. If there is more you need to know, ask her to take a polygraph test.

Finally, as you work towards recover, spend 20 hours a week giving each other you undivided attention. This is critical. Dr. Harley recommends that couples who are recover start this by taking a vacation together for as long as possible.

Did your wife ever leave her job or is she still working with the OM? Isn't he her boss?

In other words,

She is still working with OM (clearly you have avoided answering this basic recovery step).

You have not followed NC guidelines.

There has been no exposure.

Sir, you have not really followed ANY recommendations by Dr. Harley. This is a perfect example of choosing to ignore his advice and do what you want instead. Fine, but this plan has no resemblance to Dr Harleys affair recovery.

It isn't an insult to point this out. You are upset because you are being told what you don't want to hear.

It explains perfectly. With all due respect, the members of this forum understand the situation BETTER than you do. You are the least objection person here. You are willing yourself to blindly trust while sending your wife to work every day with the OM. You are relying on some hollywood version of forgiveness to convince yourself that you should be OK with this. It is NOT going to work.

The forum would not be very good friends to your marriage if we watched it crash and burn in this way without saying anything that might make you uncomfortable would we? Dr Harley does not recommend blind trust, or forgiveness. He recommends NC and exposure.

As far as Independent behavior, and friendship with the opposite sex, this is where I have seen the biggest change in her. Back in December thru February, whenever I would bring up the fact that she should not be close friends with members of the opposite sex, she would fight me tooth and nail, and say that I was being controlling, and over reacting. She would use the classic term �You just don�t want me to have friends�. She would also naively say �It�s not like he wants anything more than to be friends�, to which I would inform her that if a man shows interest in you like that, it is not because he just wants to be friends. She thought I was crazy, and we would argue quite a bit on the subject. Now, fast forward to present time, when we have a conversation about friends with the opposite sex, she says she now sees why I said what I said back then, and that she understands why she has to have very strict boundaries around men. This is usually followed by her saying how sorry she is for hurting me, and that she wishes she could take it back. Her attitude has completely changed, and she is so much more open and loving.
Another place where we have made progress, is in the area of her admitting to having an Emotional Affair. Back in June she would get really offended if I would call it an EA, and argue that it wasn�t that at all. Now she is upfront and willing to admit that it was an EA, and that she knows that what she did was wrong. One night, we were talking, and she asked me what my definition of an EA was. I told her that to me, it is any relationship that you have to lie, and hide from your husband, I don�t care if it is a boy or a girl. After this conversation, she agreed that what I said was true, and that hiding that from me was very wrong. She said she had never thought about it that way before, and now she doesn�t get all angry when I call it an EA.
As far as UA time, we have made this a major priority, and we spend a lot more time together than we used to. We really need to keep track of how many hours, but it has to be close to 20 hrs. She was even willing to read and talk about the Emotional needs on MB, and has read other articles with me on there, which before, when I first posted back in June, she would not even read anything I asked her to. Also, she changed her shift to Days, so now we work the same shift, and see each other every night, and go to bed together, and say a prayer together every night. I recognize now, that this was a major part of the events that happened, because we had been working opposite shifts for quite a while, and we were not spending near enough time on the weekends together, and we wouldn�t even see each other Mon thru Thu.
As far as working with the OM. This is still very hard for me to deal with, and we still have days that I struggle really bad, just with the thought that she might see him. The only good thing, is that he is actually her bosses boss, which is like a department head, and they were pretty much going out of their way to talk to each other back then. She never has any reason to go to him as an employee. She has agreed to never talk to him, and they do not even say hi to each other. I know a couple of her friends that work with her, and I have messaged them through facebook(which I feel bad about, because I feel like that is doing exactly what I asked her not to do) They have promised to tell me if they even see them talking at all. If I even catch wind of any communication between them, I have a letter prepared to send to HR, and other important people in their company, and at that point I would absolutely insist on her leaving the job immediately. I know most of you will say that I should do both of these things anyway, but because of the circumstances, and the fact that she ended things before I found out, and not because I found out. I am giving her one more chance. This company has no tolerance for anything of this nature, and I am positive that both of them will lose their jobs, if I were to go forward, which would up root our whole family, because of how much we rely on her job. Believe me, I would not feel one bit bad about him getting fired, and I will not hesitate to send that letter if I even catch wind of something. With all that being said, she says she despises him, and does not even want to say hi or talk to him anyway. I know that you guys will say that is her just trying to pull the wool over my eyes, but I believe her, and I know that she has set up good barriers.
So this is where we are at right now, and I actually have hope for once, and feel good about where we are heading. I still have bad days, but over all things have been very good between us.

Works ng with an affair partner, no exposure, and no extraordinary precautions, in summary, everything you are doing to "recover" is what Dr. Harley firmly warns against.

I'm not sure how we can help you if you are unwilling to listen to even the most basic principles. What good is a four hour date with you when she just spent twice that earlier with him? Do you want to spend all Monday to Friday for the next few decades wondering if she will go for lunch with him...?

You are hurting yourself so badly here by not making a stand.

RR,

Please, learn from my experience (mistake)...

Do you want to know when my FWS' affair ended, and we were atleast able to begin recovering our marriage???

THE DAY MY W AND THE OM STOPPED WORKING TOGETHER!

That was the DAY I exposed...after resisting the vets, and hemming and hawing for 3 stupid months!!!

I could've ended the affair 3 months earlier by exposing to the workplace, which I did, eventually, and that's the day the affair ended.

Oh, and by the way, don't try to fool yourself....for ANY length of time there is ANY contact of ANY kind...the affair is still ACTIVE.

One of them must leave, or there will not be a marriage to recover.

Period.

It's comments like that, that drive me crazy. First of all, she doesn't spend anytime, I mean Zero time with him at work. I am not worried about her going to lunch with him at all. My wife admits, that back in Novermber when she originally told me about him, was she was trying to wake me up, that I needed to give her more attention. It was a cry for help. She didn�t have to tell me any of that. I was neglecting her, and I needed that wake up call. I am not ignoring the advice given here. I have used a lot of advice from back in June, that helped me a lot. We are VERY, VERY good right now. I cannot explain to you enough, that there are major changes that have been made by both of us.

Good Luck!

If what you say is all true, then you might have a slight chance. That being said, you are in the 1% of all affairs, count yourself lucky (maybe you should buy a lottery ticket).

You are in a high risk marriage as long as your wife works there.

I know you think we are all mean and nasty, but as people come on this forum, they have to be get hit with 2X4's to wake them out of their fear/denial/ignorance, etc.

I will take a parting shot, you will never recover because you are not able to forgive and move ahead because there has been NO just compensation and not nearly enough EP's.

This is from the first page in June. Maybe we are driving you crazy by saying you aren't following basic recovery, but that is simple fact.

Yeah, heard the SAME thing, RR.

No time together at work, none...she told off OM, that we're "working on our marriage".

We were VERY, VERY good as well in October, November, December, etc...

They didn't work together, either...ZERO...but still passed each other in the hall, on the elevator, in the company cafe, going to their cars in the parking lot, etc in October, Novermber, December, etc.

You are making a mistake and bypassing your gretaest opportunity to recover your marriage and save your wife by not expossing to the workplace and allowing your W (or the OM) to remain there, working together...2 affair partners.

Godspeed.

Just skimmed this thread today. Re-reading and will have more comments but wanted to start with this one:


A wayward who still works with their affair partner will WORK HARD to convince the BS that they do not speak or interact with the OP anymore. Even going so far as to make the BS believe the marriage is better.

Why? So that the BS will back off.

How do we know this? Because we see it on these forums all the time. We see the same things fold over and over and over again because people in affairs all act the same. They are in the fog and don't want to stop taking hits off the crackpipe (OP). That's why it's important to IGNORE the words of the WS (a proven liar) and follow the plan.

We know better what your WW will do than you do. Because we have seen this scenario unfold thousands of times before. The affair is still ON.

It's crazy how people who have been gaslit think they need to work on "their issues" while the WS continues engaging in marriage-wrecking behavior.

Amazing.

It's posts like yours that drive us, the ones who have BTDT and been posting on these forums for YEARS, crazy. Because you are on the train tracks, about to get run over and not listening when we are telling you to get off.

I post to people like you ALL THE TIME and most of the time, these posters, like yourselves come back and say "Oops, you were right."


This is according to her. The word of a proven LIAR. That's a fact. Waywards lie and lie and then lie some more. Until you realize this, you are in serious trouble.

The fact that she adamantly refuses a POLY is exactly what I would expect for someone who hasn't given up their Secret Second Life (SSL). Acting offended that you would even ask is exactly what Dr Harley says a person who has a SSL would react.

(As I read RR's thread, my goodness do I feel just horrible about what I put all of you through...Susie, Mel, Marital, Pep, BH, HHH etc. My denial, fear, in face of the reality of what needed to be done. I'm glad I wised up before it was too late and my marriage and family was destroyed).


RR, it's okay to want to clean up 'your side of the street', but you don't just accept doing that while your W is engaged in an AFFAIR.

My FWW also touted the "we'll just stay friends....I don't want to be rude...we should end this cordially" fog. Shame on me for accepting that for 3 months, allowing an active affair to continue for 3 more months?!?

And I will reiterate again...from 1st hand experience...so long as the affair partners work together the AFFAIR IS STILL ACTIVE.

Let's get moving, brother!

What happened is what happens to every person who finds themselves in an affair and Dr Harley has spoken about it often:


Your WW is no different than any other WS and her A is not any different. No, your situation is not "special". That's exactly what every other person who wants to cut corners wants to believe about their situation too.

Plain and simple....this OM made enough LB$ deposits to cause your W to fall in love with him. That does not just go away, despite your WW's declarations that she now "hates" OM.

I will be bumping a thread for you and I hope that you read it.

I would encourage you to start reading and learning about Marriage Builders.

No offense but I don't think you understand the basics...because by understanding the simple Love Bank model, you would realize how much you put your M at risk by allowing contact to continue REGARDLESS of what your WW tells you.

It's not just about meeting ENs and avoiding Lovebusters.

There are two thread I bumped for you: I told ya so and Cutting corners and the marriage builders program.

RoughRock;

Like HelpForDad, my WS stayed working with the OP, "until he could get a transfer" (which, not surprisingly, kept taking longer and longer to materialize...) During the 5 MONTH that they continued to work together, he reported to me daily every "business-only contact" they had.

Though I was snooping, and though I was told differently from all the vets here, I still bought the story that they could be professional during their supposed-rare meetings.

At D-Day 2, I learned that this was all a smoke screen, and that the A just went underground. Trying to recover from a False Recovery, and deal with the extra lies and SSL which took place during that 5 months, has been MUCH more difficult than dealing with the original pain.

Please, please, DO NOT set yourself up for this. You are underestimating the power of the addiction of the A, as was I. Your wife gets a "hit" even just seeing the OM's car in the lot, or seeing his name on a memo. She cannot reconnect with you while she is under the influence.

I am sorry. I know how much you want to believe your marriage has a foot on the right track. But it is better to know the truth. Your wife MUST LEAVE that job, before she can even begin the withdrawal process.

My now-former WH will tell you the same thing. He now admits he was powerless to end the A while contact continued.

She has to get outta there.

Roughrock,

I see you are posting on other threads, but stating you will no longer post on your own due to the "beating" you are getting.

It seems a little absurd to call it a "beating" when we point out that you can't recover with your wife working with OM during the week.

Dr. Harley has NEVER seen a marriage recover like that. We see those "it started again!" Posts constantly. Even people who thought the same as you are here, trying to snap you out of it.

Hiding your head in the sand while people yell at you to pull it out is not a beating. You can cover your ears if you want, that isn't going to change the reality that she obviously isn't interested in putting your marriage first. And if you can't stand up to her, well, you will suffer the same fate as every other victim who backs down.

I don't see why you would advise other posters when you obviously don't believe in MB. Doing the opposite and calling it MB doesn't make it so.

This is a hopeless situation and your marriage will never recover. I am so sorry. The first step in recovery is complete and total separation between the affairees. Every time she sees him her feelings will be triggered and the affair will become more and more entrenched. Eventually she will leave you for him. I have been here for 13 years and have never seen a marriage recover this way. Neither has Dr Harley in his 40 years of professional experience.

Dr. Harley speaks to a husband on the radio who did the same thing: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=652

And if people being truthful to you about the hopelessness of your situation is a "beating" then prepare to get beaten up! The fact that you have not even taken Step One in recovery should remain on the front burner until you resolve it.

It is the job of any good coach to make you do the things you don't want to do in order to achieve an objective you desire. You are not being beaten up. You are being coached.

RR,

You are not getting a beating.

As a matter of fact, it is difficult for me to post here sometimes, becasue I am so embarrassed. And because I get upset at myself thinking about the time/effort of good people I wasted....people who have NO ulterior motivation to help complete strangers except for to build a strong marriage.

Yeah, I didn't want to face reality either for awhile...didn't expose out of fear, denial...and it may have felt like ' a beating' as you call it, its just tough, caring love.

Looking back, I feel I owe some of the vets a personal apology for all my argumentativeness, and foot-dragging, etc...man, I mustve drove them nuts. And I was so blind -- they lived through it! Who else would be experts in how to navigate this than them?

It still haunts me to share this with others, but I will:

The vets told me that after exposure, if we recovered our marriage, my FWS would thank me -- thank ME -- for exposing and saving her from that destructive path.

And they were right...my W did and has. But it's always tinged with personal regret for me, becasue when she said it, her only caveat was: "I only wish you hadn't waited that 3 extra months."

She knows that I could've ended her affair (she could not...alien, fog stuff)and put us on the recovery path 3 months earlier, and I putzed.

It did delay our own recoveries, and I still regret not following Dr. Harley's advice to a T earlier.

I hope you will gather the strength soon to do what's necessary to save your spouse.

Nobody is beating you up. We are just telling you what you already know, you yourself have written it multiple times on your own thread. That your wife continuing to work with the OM is a recipe for disaster. That every day she goes to work you will spend the day wondering if she will see the OM by mere chance or by careful planning.

This scenario will NOT allow you to recover. It is 'hard for you to deal with' because you instinctively perceive a threat to your marriage, and you should listen because it IS a threat to your marriage.

Okay, I am very scared, and I am not stupid, I know that while they work together it is the worst possible situation. I don�t know how to fix it. I would love to expose in the work place, but I absolutely have no evidence. I would basically be writing a letter saying that I don�t have any proof, but I think you should fire your department head because he talked to my wife. I never mentioned this before, but my wife and I have 6 kids, and we barely scrape by each month, if you even want to call it that, because we seem to get further and further behind. Her job is huge chunk of our income. She has been there 16 years, and does not want to ever lose her job. I don�t know what to do. I know you guys look at me as a stubborn ignorant person, but we are talking about uprooting my whole family.
I am willing to work and listen, but I want to get one thing straight, and I am asking you guys to respect this. I know for a fact, that it never became a physical affair. I know this, and every time someone on here says �I�m am sorry to tell you this, but your wife is having a PA� I get so frustrated, because it means nobody is listening to me. Can we move forward with the understanding that this was never physical?
So here is the latest update on the work situation. She started back a couple weeks ago, after having a month off, and believe me, it was very hard on me just knowing that she would probably see him. I had some major triggers that day, and was very miserable. So after a couple weeks, She is not talking to him at all, (this has been confirmed by people that she works with), but last night she was telling me how awkward it was not even saying hi to him. I know this is just her being frustrated, because she wants things to be the way they were. In our conversation, I told her what my opinion was, and that I was okay with the awkwardness. She said it would be less awkward, if she could at least say Hi in passing, because the other day, her and another coworker �Amy�, were walking down the hall, and he passed them, and in passing he said �Hi Amy�, and she said it was the most awkward situation, because Amy doesn�t know any details, but she totally noticed how blatant it was. Then she said that she was walking outside, and he was outside smoking, and she had to walk past him to get in the building, and as she walked past he turned the other way, and blew out smoke, like he was trying to make it extra awkward. I told her that this is just him sending signals to her. He is purposely running across her path to make it awkward, and to send signals that he wants her to open back up to him.
So Hypothetically, I asked her if it was mutually agreed that she could say hi to him, would it be too much to ask that it be just �HI�, and not even as much as �How�s it going�. She got frustrated and said I am asking her not to be herself, because she says that to everyone, not expecting an answer. So, at the end of the conversation, I told her that I was not comfortable even with �HI�, but that I ultimately can�t force her. She was frustrated, and said �Fine, I will just let it continue to be awkward, because I don�t want you to be disappointed�.
I know this situation is not good, but I don�t know what to do. I know that it could start back up in a flash. Right now I am trying to be the best husband I can be, without Love busters, and I am snooping like hell. It is complete radio silence right now, and they are not contacting each other at all. I am sorry that I look like such a stubborn person. I know that my marriage is hanging by a thread here.

Nobody here thinks you are 1) stupid, 2) stubborn, or 3) ignorant. We do think you are devastated by betrayal and scared to take action. MANY people here have walked this path before you, you could not find a crowd more understanding of your fear.

But we also know that hiding in fear does not accomplish the goal of ending affairs and building strong marriages. Instead, hiding in fear *promotes* affairs, and a 'do nothing' plan of attack is a plan to fail.

So what we know is that your wife has remained in the job, she IS seeing her OM frequently at work, and she is trying to gaslight you into giving her your blessing to communicate with him. (which you gave her...)

And she seems to be more concerned with him or her feeling 'awkward' than the fact that she has left you devastated by betrayal, and has done immeasurable harm to her marriage. I think it is pretty clear that she is still in the fog.

We really don't need to spell this out for you at all do we.

RR,

In your very first post you wrote:

She tells me that she was trying to get him to go to lunch with her, but he would say "No, because I don't think I could keep my hands off you" then she would reply "Don't you think you can control yourself"?, to which he would reply "I don't want to control myself". I am sure there are a lot of details that she left out, but the bottom line is, she said she recognized that his true intentions were physical, and she said she started to feel like a piece of meet. She said at that point she decided not to text him anymore, and I could see from the phone bill that there was definitely a date where it seemed to stop.[/color]


My questions:

1. You approve of your wife arranging a lunch date at work with a man other than her husband?

2. You approve of another man speaking to your wife this way, the mother of your children?

3. You approve of this scumball seeing, working, interacting on a daily basis with your wife?


By NOT exposing, by sitting on your hands, by doing nothing but posting here about what you're not doing....you are answering 'YES', sadly.


I believe on Melody's note is the "Exposure 101" link.

Use it, please. Stand up for your children, your wife, your marriage.

I understand your financial concerns. Since workplace affairs are so common, many people here have to find new employment to end contact with an AP. This is not a forum just for the privileged, just regular everyday folks like you from all over the world, many scraping by also. The decision has to be made to put your marriage first, and job second, regardless of whether you are financially well off or scraping by. Your marriage and family need to come first, not the job.

She can find a new job.

People find new jobs every day.

People also have affairs every day, and get divorced every day.

Which do you think will uproot your family more?

How do you know this 'for a fact?' Because your wife has told you this? The word of someone in the fog is not FACT.

The bottom line is, it doesn't matter if it is an EA or a PA at this point, the steps to follow are the same. Nobody is trying to force you to believe it is a PA, because we don't know if it was a PA anymore than you do. What people here are trying to get you to see is that, your wife is in a fog and her word cannot be trusted. ANYTHING is possible. You cannot rely on her word to make decisions on your life right now. If she says it was not a PA, that cannot be trusted. That doesn't mean it isn't true, it just means you cannot blindly trust the word of someone in the fog.

It won't be awkward for her if she NEVER SEES HIM because she no longer works there....

Ultimately, RoughRock, it doesn't matter whether the affair went physical or not. In fact, some waywards hold up the fact that they haven't had intercourse as justification that it isn't really an affair. (Bill Clinton, for example...)

Dr. Harley defines an affair as a romantic attachment to someone other than the spouse. Your wife is having an affair.

Exposure is your next step.

Like Dr. Harley says, give your WW 30 days to resign and find another job or you will expose to her job.

You still need to expose to family, especially your kids.

At lunch I talked to my wife, and I told her that she needs to find another job, and she absolutly refuses, because she has 16 years of pension that she will lose. I told her that I cannot continue to live this way. Her reply was maybe he will leave soon.
So the question is now, how should I expose in the workplace with absolutly no evidence. Melody gave me this template a while back, but I don't know how to fit it to my situation exactly. here is the template I have.

To Whom It May Concern:

This letter is to bring a matter to your attention that may be a violation of your Company's Code of Conduct and/or other policies, procedures and business ethics.

WS and WS are involved in an extramarital affair that is taking place, primarily, in the workplace. Aside from the potential sexual harassment claims this situation presents, it also involves the inappropriate use of company resources and assets. WS and WS are using company time and company resources to further their affair. If you check the call histories on their office and cell phones along with their workstation computers, you will find the two of them are spending an inordinate amount of what should be productive work time to further their sexual relationship.

If you have any questions, please call me at xxx-xxxx. Otherwise, I will anticipate a response from you once you have investigated these concerns and taken appropriate corrective action.

Regards,
_________________________

There was no miss use of company time by him at all, because they were texting after he left work. She was there, but it still doesn't have an affect, because she is graded by speed and quality. She excells in her job, and definetly gets more than is expected done. As far as sexual harrasment, there is no way my wife would admit, or stand behind any SH charges. How should I word it. I just don't know exactly how to go about this.

BTW, I just got a text from my wife that says. "You're mine...I don't know why you think I would want someone else".

This is an example of her short term memory. She thinks I should be over this by now, and doesn't know why I still think about it on a daily basis.

RR,

Just a few notes from my situation, that yours reminds me of:

1. My FWS also claimed they only texted after work hours. Phone bill proved otherwise. If theyre texting after works hours...and they work together...odds are they are texting during work hours.

2. ANY time at work they spend texting, talking, meeting up in a hall is time spent AWAY from doing their job, thus they are wasting the company's time and resources. Their bosses are evaluated on their success/profits -- any little implication of anything jeopardizing that will solicit a reaction against them.

3. When push came to shove, AFTER exposure...to save her job, her income, her house, her kids...my FWS -- who at one time in her fog dared me to subpoena the POSOM for court -- gladly stated there was no way she would testify FOR the POSOM in a SH case, when doing so would be throwing herself under the bus as well.

4. Even if I was off, the mere notification to a company'es HR director and VP and President is enough of a 'shot across the bow' to end the employment of one of them, and put both of them on notice.

Just an FYI.

Sir, the 1000 text messages between the two of them (detailed on your first post) is enough evidence.

I would send the letter Melody posted to the President of the Company and a key VP; certified mail.

Also, this affair should be fully exposed and the OM should be posted on www.cheaterville.com

You wife forfeited her option to stay in that job when she chose to pursue her affair. It is as simple as that.

Everything your wife has said shows her on the path to a physical affair. "You just don't want me to have friends." "I told him I think he's attractive." "He hits on me and doesn't like you." "I was trying to protect you by not telling you I'm still in contact with the OM." I've heard all this before: from my WH. His physical affair stared very soon afterwards.

I feel very strongly that you need to take the steps to end this affair. She needs to send him a no contact letter and change jobs. Unless she does this you will live for a long time in fear. You won't know if she has truly stopped contact or if she truly wants to. The biggest threat is that she has expressed her interest to the OM and he has expressed a deep desire to be with her. A single fight between you and her, a single bad day, could drive her straight into his arms.

Protect yourself. Protect your wife from her weaknesses. Protect your marriage from the consequences of your wife's poor judgement and naive decisions. She has to realise the gravity and danger of the situation she is in.

Don't feel helpless! You can do this. You can make your wife feel so loved and wanted and sexy that she will never even think of another man. She'll be too busy daydreaming about you. But this will take TIME. You need to spend around 20 hours a week together one-on-one, no kids or phones or TVs to interrupt you while you meet each other's emotional needs. Since you work opposite shifts one of you will have to change your schedule. This is the best way to arrange more time together. You might have to get a nanny or look into daycare for the kids (depending on their age.)

This process of strengthening your marriage will take some big changes and sacrifices of what you're used to. But lets face it: what you're used to DOESN'T WORK!

It's going to be REALLY hard to put on a face and love her with abandon. It requires you to be extremely vulnerable. But it is SO worth it. Because eventually she will be just as vulnerable. But together, that close, that intimate, you'll feel safe.

I agree with everyone here. She needs to quit her job. You need to snoop and continue to investigate. She has admitted some facts to you, so if she decided to continue she would have gone deeper underground. And your counsellor should base their teachings on Dr. Harley's program. Many counsellors base their teachings on personal opinion rather than documented and researched fact.

Don 't listen to the people here putting you down. I understand how hard it is to love someone and want to trust them. I knew my husband was unhappy with himself before any affair was on the horizon. I wanted to be fair and not accuse him because if he truly was innocent my accusations would slaughter his self-esteem. But I do agree that you SHOULD NOT trust your wife. She is not in her right mind. If she truly believes that she and her OM were just friends, she's not thinking straight.

You need to send the letter because what is happening leaves your company wide open to a sexual harassment lawsuit. You have your wife's confession of the affair and that is plenty of evidence.

In addition, I would expse to anyone else who doesn't know. Remind me, did you epxose to the OM's family?

You should keep this issue on the front burner and tell your wife this will lead to divorce if she doesn't leave the job. I would give it 6 months from your D-day and then plan to move out and go into Plan B.

I know it's hard to hear everyone telling you that your wife's affair was not physical. When I approached my husband about the affair I suspected he was having, the first time he was angry and defensive, they were just friends. Then he ended the friendship but didn't seem sincere about. After that he was very kind and patient. I confronted him again about a new woman and he was calm and seemed very sincere. I felt completely convinced and even prayed about it and felt totally at peace. Then not even a week later he admitted to kissing the new woman. But a few weeks after that he admitted that it had actually been sexual for quite a while.

My point is that you CANNOT trust your feelings or your gut. Your wife is an addict and EXTREMELY well versed in deception and secrecy. My WH later admitted that he wasn't in his right mind and that everything he said and did was designed to trick me into believing him.

Your wife needs to give you a reason to believe her. And to start with, she needs to show the desire to put your mind at ease. Right now she is angry and defensive. Stop talking to her about it. When you're with her pretend it never happened. And START SNOOPING!!! If she is telling the truth, the evidence will prove it. If not...

As for the OM. She admitted to him making sexual comments to her at work. That is sexual harassment and needs to be reported.

I beg your pardon? Who has put him down? I see many posters who took valuable time out of their own schedules to help this poster. And you are telling him not to listen to those posters?!

To put it another way, workplace affairs are always sexual harassment lawsuit RISKS. This is why most companies don't tolerate workplace affairs.

I really do appreciate the time people have taken, and I do understand why people are so hesitant. It is scary to think of the repercussions. I know now that I have to do something drastic, and I am just trying to decide how to execute it.
I dont really feel like people purposely put me down, it is just when you feel like you have been through the ringer, the truth can be painful and harsh. I just want to feel normal again.

Objective observers can see you sitting on the train tracks waiting to get hit. This is why posters are so passionate to help you. They are not putting you down, but trying to get you off the train tracks so your situation is not hopeless. People mean well and I hope very much you listen!!

I have been reading here now for 4 months, and over that time I actually have gained a great deal of respect for what you guys do. I know you have others best interests in mind when you give advice. I also learned how much harder it is to accept that advice when it is your own story. Even when you know in your heart, that certain things need to be done

It is much, much harder to NOT take the advice, though. We are not telling you to do anything we have not done ourselves.

We aren't here to tell people what they want to hear and enable destructive ideas. People can get that anywhere on the internet.

Not at all! I agree with everyone here, especially you. But there have been a few comments that have been snarky and sarcastic.

I don't see a single one. Rather, I see many knowledgeable, veteran posters who have been here for YEARS helping others who took their own valuable time to post to this man. You might want to think twice about telling a this poster not to listen to them. These are the people who have carried this forum for years.

***EDIT***

You are not taught to avoid lovebusters with a fellow poster. NebDane is not trying to full his lovebank, I assure you. So your point about disrespectful judgements is out of context.

I would add that you are not the post police here. That job is reserved for the moderators.

Please leave the moderating to the moderators. If you see a problem with a post, click notify. Do not tell other posters how to post.

***EDIT***

***EDIT***

***EDIT***

If you have a problem with another poster, click notify and contact the moderators. Moderators are also available by email.

Do not disrupt this thread again.

Well, I have started the Exposure process, and my wife is not very happy about it. I told my sister, and brother, and I plan on telling my parents very soon. The only one that I can think of to tell on her side of the family, is one sister, and one brother. Her parents are very old, and her mom has dementia, and constantly repeats the same stories over and over. The one sister that I plan on calling today, is a huge example to my wife, and her opinion will mean a lot to my wife. I am going to ask her to talk to my wife and explain to her why this situation was not right. I talked to our pastor yesterday, and told him the story. I also have started the process with her work. I was able to get my story to a man that is way up in my wifes company, and he happens to be over HR. He is not happy at all, and he is going to start digging on this guy. Meanwhile, he wants me to write up a statement of some of the things that were said to my wife, and an explanation of the events of the last 8 months. The first thing he said, is this guy needs to be fired, because he has no business even talking to an employee at her level, let alone giving her his personal Cell#.
My wife is upset with me right now, because she said I didn't respect her wishes, to not tell anyone about the situation. I told her that I had to do what is right for my family. With the events that transpired last week, I knew I had to do something. She said there were multiple awkward situations, where he was making it awkward on purpose, and she told me the other night, that after one of the awkward days, she went and dropped a note through his truck window, that said he could stop being so rude. This confirmed to me, that even though they are not talking, there are still a lot of feelings going on, and things could start back up if nothing is done. Even though she says she hates him now, whenever in the past I would mention notifying her work, she would get really defensive and say that she didn't want him to get in trouble, and lose his job, and she would say that she would probably get fired too. I told her that the only reason she cares, is because she still has feelings for him. She say's its not that she has feelings for him, but that she just still cares for him as a friend. what a load of crap. Anyway, this has become exposure week, so wish me luck, and I will try and keep you updated.

Good job on exposing. It's good to know this company has good morals.

Who have you exposed to on OM's side? His parents, siblings?

If he loses his job it's part of the consequences on him from having an affair.

When she comes out of the fog she will thank you and appreciate that you stood up and fought for her and your marriage.

Good job, RR!! Exposure should be completed in one day WITHOUT FOREWARNING your spouse so it hits her and the OM like a tsunami. Don't trickle this out. Get it done NOW.

Does the OM have a facebook page? If so, I would expose to his family and friends on fb too. That will put pressure on him to leave your wife alone.

Good job.
Just be swift with your exposure, you cant let it go on for days. Get it done in a hurry.
Great job on the work exposure, same thing applies, make it happen fast and send a letter to the guy you talked to and a couple other of the executives(companies don't like trouble, and when the trouble is in writing things tend to happen).

I see you are starting to see through the Fog Babble, your wife being mad is exactly to script.
More info may suddenly come your way regarding the affair, that you may have not known.

You are doing the right thing!

Great job!!!

If I could pass along some advice the vets gave to me, which worked wonders:

When you expose at the workplace, be sure to send copies of your exposure letters to several people in power and CC them on all of it. If you ONLY expose to the HR director, for example, he/she can sweep it under the rug.

However, if the same exposure occurs to the HR director, AND VP, AND President, and any other supervisors, etc...they'll all know that each other knows and it'll be like 'hot potato' and they'll ALL be motivated to get the POSOM the heck outta there, and AWAY from your WW.

Godspeed.

Make that "today is exposure day", OK?

Okay, back in June when I first started putting up resistance to the idea of exposing, I was still listening to all your advice, and I went to his facebook, and copied all of his FB contacts. This turned out to be a good thing, because he somehow blocked his account. I can't see it at all, and not even from an account that's not mine. One problem I am having though, is he is from the opposite side of the country, and grew up like 2,500 miles away. My wife says he hasn't had any contact with his Mom and Dad for years, and there is no sign of them on FB. I did find one of his brothers, and a sister. I will notify them and a handful of his friends. I am going to write the work exposure letter today.
One thing that made me realize that this had to be done, was when I asked my wife the other day, if she had talked to him at all since Dday,(which, i have asked her many, many times)she said just the two times I told you about, which she only told me about one, then she proceeded to tell me that one day he stopped her in the hall and asked her if I had calmed down yet. She somehow thought she had told me that already. this confirmed to me that when things eventually would have calmed down, this would fire right back up.
Also, she told me that back before I knew about the texting, he was nervous, and kept asking her if I was going to freak out if I found out. She assured him that I wouldn't over react. I said to her the other day, "Don't you think if you are having a conversation with another man about how your husband will react when he finds out, that you are being pretty shady, and totally disrespecting your husband"? She admitted that was not right.
This is also proof, that he knew he should not have been talking too, and texting a married employee over 1,000 times in a 2 month period. He is a POS, and he needs to be exposed before he does this to another woman, or starts things back up with mine.

Exactly.

I'm sorry it took so long for you to realize this...I understand as I went through the same thing.

Fear. Denial. Fog.

You will not believe the feeling you'll have after full exposure is complete.

Now, GO FINISH THE TASK! :-)

She needs to leave that job.

Yes, indeed.

I don't have anything to add but chew on this. If she "hates" this guy and doesn't want anything to do with him why is she leaving notes in his truck and upset over exposure. She is trying to protect him from any negative consequences. Trying to take the affair underground. Good on you and make that exposure good. Repeat that your doing what's best for your marriage during her anger and venoumous remarks.

Post him on www.cheaterville.com also

Do NOT trickle expose!!! Get it all done in one day and don't tell your WW what you are doing!

If you spread out the exposure over a week as stated, then they will have time to forwarn your exposure tartgets and label you as a crazy, manipulative and controlling psycho trying to bust up an innocent friendship.

Contact everyone today, even if you have to take off of work and use a computer at a public library, so you don't get interrupted.

Good Luck.

LTL

Okay, here is my rough draft. When I talked to the HR rep, he said to include specific situations, and as much detail as possible. I am open to suggestions, as to what I should change.
I will be sending this tomorrow. In the letter, I mention that I informed my wife that I would be sending the letter, but I don't plan on informing her until after I send it. That way she can't try to convince me not to sent it.

To Whom It May Concern:

This email is to bring a matter to your attention that may be a violation of your Company's Code of Conduct and/or other policies, procedures and business ethics.

During the months of October 2013, through April 2014 XXXX XXXXX, the area�s Department Head, pursued an extramarital affair with my wife XXXX XXXX. This primarily took place in the workplace but also happened on the weekends, and days my wife did not work. Aside from the potential sexual harassment claims this situation presents, it also shows the complete lack of ethics this Manager has in regards to employee/boss relationships. My wife came to me in November of 2013 and claimed that XXXXXX would converse with her in his office, upon her arriving to work. In these conversations, she said he would tell her how beautiful she was, and ask her about personal things. My wife said he began to refer to me in a derogatory manner, and use phrases like �how�s that XXXX husband treating you lately�, and he would refer to me as a XXXX. He also made inappropriate comments like one day my wife was in his office, and she adjusted her shirt, and he said �you better be careful, or people are going to think we are messing around in here�. Another example is my wife was at her desk, and she had to bend over and pick up a paper, at which point XXXXXX said �you better stop doing that, before I say something dirty�. These are just a couple examples of the many things my wife was exposed to in the work place. My wife told me that she was trying to avoid him, but he would continually strike up conversation, and over time she said she began to like that he would always tell her how beautiful she looked that day. So in turn she began to enjoy having conversations with him, because he would talk about all sorts of topics(non-work related), and he was fun to talk to. This began to create some contention in the home between her and I, because every day when she would head to work, I would worry about what advances he would try and make on my wife that afternoon. My wife was then furloughed in the second week of December, and she did not return again until the last week of January. During this time there was very little communication, but they did text each other a few times during the break. Upon my wife�s return to work, she said things had calmed down some, and he didn�t talk to her as much. Somewhere around the end of February, my wife and XXXXX began texting. He told her that he was worried about using his company Cell phone for this purpose, so he gave her his personal Cell phone, and they began texting on a regular basis.

My wife says for the first month or so, the texts were mostly friendly playful banter, but sometime in April, XXXXX began to hint to her of his intentions by saying things like �We better not ever be alone together, because I wouldn�t be able to keep my hands off you�, at which point my wife would say, �I only want to be friends with you, don�t you think you would be able to control yourself�, he would answer, �I don�t want to control myself�. Another example, is that they were discussing going to lunch as friends, and he said he could not go to lunch because of what might happen. When my wife would ask what would happen, he would say I can�t tell you because it would be X-Rated. These are just a couple examples that XXXXX related to me. My wife said at this point she became scared, because she could see that all he wanted was to have sex with her. At this point, my wife wrote him a Letter explaining that she loves her family very much, and does not want to jeopardize her relationship with me. She said they could no longer be friends. She said not long after he received this letter, he began texting her again, explaining why he did what he did. During these conversations, he asked questions about me, wondering if I would be upset, and notify their work, if I found out about their inappropriate relationship. My wife told him that she was not sure how I would react. Finally on the night of April 29th, 2014 my wife said she cut off all communication with XXXXXX, and requested that there be no contact whatsoever.


Since this date, XXXXX has mostly kept his distance, but still continues to occasionally make remarks, like one day he whispered as he walked by �It doesn�t have to be weird�, and on another occasion, he stopped her in the hall, and asked if I had calmed down yet? The reason I am coming forward at this point, is because on a daily basis, I have to hear my wife�s complaints about how extremely awkward it can be at times. She even went as far as to say last week, on August 6th, it was as if he was deliberately trying to make it awkward, and going out of his way to do so. I have informed XXXXX, that I would be writing this email, and she is afraid to say anything, or speak up, because she feels like she could be discriminated against in the future. She is also afraid of any retaliation from XXXXXX. I, as a concerned husband am trying to do what is right, and fix this situation, before it turns into a potential Sexual Harassment lawsuit. My wife has worked there for 16+ years, and has not had any problems prior to having XXXXX XXXXXX as a Department head. In fact she has been proven to exceed what is expected of her, and is very efficient and an outstanding employee. She expressed to me, that she wishes she could go to work and not have to worry about what may happen.

In closing, when my wife started this job, we viewed it as a great opportunity for our family. She has always been treated fairly, and in a very professional way, that is until XXXXX became her manager. I saved our phone bill, with pages and pages of text messages between the two of them, if this could be of any assistance to this case, please let me know and I can email them in a PDF file. These print outs show dates and times of over 1,000 texts between them. It even shows him texting her while she is at home, and late into the night. My intention in writing this email, is to inform the appropriate parties of the situation.

If you have any questions, please call me at XXX-XXXX. Otherwise, I will anticipate a response from you once you have investigated these concerns and taken appropriate corrective action.

Regards,

XXXXXXXX

Please use the exposure letter template on Melody's "Exposure 101" thread.

This is the template Melody gave me. I modified it to my situation, and the added as much detail as I could. The HR rep said to try and be specific, and include a lot of detail.

Sir, when you send this letter, CC the HR dept, but send the originals to the President and a key VP

Remember to CC to others as Jedi suggests...

Well, I emailed the letter yesterday, and I called her sister, and her brother, and I told my Brother and SIL, and my Sister and BIL, So last night when I got home, I informed my wife of the content of the letter, and I mentioned the key people that I told. So right now, I am dealing with a very mad wife. She is so mad, and tells me that I have absolutely no respect for her privacy, and that I had no right to do what I did. She says she will never talk to my family again, and if her sister calls, she will not answer. She says she is going to be so embarrassed at work, and she can't believe that I would do this. I told her over and over last night, that what I did, I did for our marriage and family. Right now I feel like crap, and I even wonder if what I did was the right thing. I feel terrible. I love my wife with all my heart, and I don't like to watch her go through this pain either. This sucks. All that being said, I did see for myself that this needed to happen. Without doing this, I would have never been able to feel safe again.

"Right now I feel like crap, and I even wonder if what I did was the right thing. I feel terrible. I love my wife with all my heart, and I don't like to watch her go through this pain either. This sucks."

RR,

Stop wondering -- yes, you DID the right thing! You took the first, necessary steps to end her addiction, get her off that destructive path, and have a chance to build a good marriage.

Exposure is NOT a punitive act. On the contrary, it is an act of love and care.

She will go through pain, and it is inevitable. Please know that as much as you want to shield her from the pain becasue you love her, she will suffer consequences due to her affair.

Your role will be to lead in relying on the MB program to show her a path you can both be on to build a lasting marriage.

Stay strong!

Stay Strong! You did the right thing, it had to be done.
Yes, it is very hard to do what you did.
The fact that your wife is mad, embarrassed, in pain, are all tell tale signs of the addiction.
As you said, you had to do it for your wife's sake. She was incapable of protecting herself and doing the right thing. You did it for HER!

I hope you CC'd some other executives in the company. I would be willing to bet that the scumbag has done this with other women. Did you inform his wife and get the Facebook exposure done?


It is not punitive, but it is liberating and empowering for the betrayed. You gain just a little sense of control in an out of control situation.

Good work! But now you have to close the deal and get her out of there. She has to end all contact with the OM in order for this work. I would be a broken record and do not let up: "in order for our marriage to survive you will have to leave this job. This will lead to divorce if you don't."

Don't let up. Keep this issue on the front burner until it is resolved. It is your only hope.

And don't feel like crap. Men are wired to make women happy and your wife is unhappy FOR GOOD REASON!! That reason is because you interfered with her affair. You took the car keys away from the falling down drunk and she is furious. Use your logic to override your emotional reactions, can you do that?

If she didn't get angry I'd be more worried. Anger due to exposure shows that the wayward spouse cares about their image and reputation, and her knowing that you will hold her accountable in the marriage will likely prevent future straying.

You've brought the bad deed to light, now it is time to start making love bank deposits and showing your wife what a great husband you can be.

She is in the fog still, but give it some time and your love bank deposits will start taking effect. But first, she must have no contact with the OM. Hopefully your letter to HR will speed that process up.

Did you post OM on www.cheaterville.com?
If not, this is the time to do so.

RR --

Watching an angry WW after exposure is similar to watching a heroin addict go cold turkey.

If you didn't complete your exposure's quickly, your WW would go into damage-control mode to protect OM. Its far better to do all exposures immediately so their opportunity to challenge it is lost!

What is a good response when my wife says "You had no right to tell my sister"!!! Also, when she says things like "I am never going to your families house again". Also, she keeps saying things like "you didn't have to affect his job, because that is all he has". When she says that, I just tell her that it is because she still has feelings for him. Her response is "I never had feelings for him, I just don't like to get people in trouble". Then she keeps using the line "You didn't have to involve him, because all of this is my fault, because I am the one that started texting him".

Sorry, I am just frustrated. I feel like she hates me, and then I have to watch her feel sorry for the POSOM.

RR,

"I will do what is necessary to protect my marriage/family. I'm making some hot tea -- would you like a cup?"

Don't argue with her, don't engage her/converse about the OM with her. Be a broken record, then she'll stop asking you "why'd you do this to me?" blah, blah, blah.

BTW -- as hard as it is to accept now, those "feelings" for the POS are fake, and there WILL come a day when your WW realizes/accepts this as fact, and will look to the man with the great Plan A for care and protection.

As JK said earlier, I think...it's almost a 'good' sign that she's angry -- this shows your exposure worked and damaged her affair!

Keep moving forward, and work the aspects of the MB Program.

This is where you MUST lead the conversation and stop cowering in the corner. Tell her over and over again that she is going to have to leave that job or your marriage will not make it. Don't get defensive and don't apologize for yourself. You did nothing wrong.

Take the bull by the horns and lead your marriage out of the ditch.

"I am sorry the OM got himself into trouble by having an affair."

I went through it too.
I just politely said I feel that OM is a danger to marriages and families and people have a right to know so they can protect themselves from him

OM is a big boy. Him "getting into trouble" is part of the consequences from him having an affair.

Well, in the old days OM may have been shot.
If OM is a cry baby about exposure then that's his problem

Dont apologize. Say you will do whatever it takes to save my marriage, repeat....
Her protecting the OM proves that she had feelings for him.

I like Jedi's response- He is a danger to my family and other families, i will not protect/shield him from his adulterous acts. Use the words affair and adultery, they are powerful in meaning.

Melody is right she is going to have to quit that job, regardless if the POSOM gets axed. It will forever be a trigger point for her and YOU.

I am struggling with bringing things up that I know I shouldn't. Today I mentioned to her through a text, that I was struggling, and she said she was sick of it. I replied "Sick of what? Me struggling?" She said "I am sick of this whole situation". I replied. "Me too, I wish this never happened. Maybe someday it won't be the first thing I think about when I wake up, and the last thing I think about before I go to bed. Oh, and I better not forget all night long while I dream about it. Believe me, I am sick of it too."
Then, once I say stupid things like this, it triggers me, and I start saying things that I know I shouldn't. The next thing I texted her, was "I catch myself wondering why my wife would think it would be okay to tell a good looking single man, that she no longer feels a spark for her husband, and then tell him to give her a reason not to like him, so it would be easier to stop thinking about him. Translation of what the man hears. I no longer desire my husband, and I want you."
She replied," I know, that sounds bad when you put it like that, I am sorry" Then I replied with " Its good to know that he was sending you scriptures to help you with your tough marital problems. I am sure a guy with that high of an IQ (she told me he used to tell her how high his IQ is)gave you some solid advice. No wonder you thought it would be safe to tell him that you wanted to know where he lives, so you could drive 20 minutes out of your way to have a nap after work, so you could stay awake to now drive 50 minutes home. Mans translation. I want to have sex with you before I go home to my boring husband.
I know I am not supposed to bring these things up, but sometimes they just come spilling out. I feel like I can't control it. Does anyone have any tips on how they would avoid this. I try to avoid triggers, but sometimes I can't help it. Why does it still hurt so bad? Most of the time I do fine, and then BAM!!! I get hit with this wall of deep sorrow and confusion. When will I feel normal again?

Anti depressants

It is going to really suck for awhile, everyone is different on how long it takes. That is the hell you are going through.
It will come in waves and subside, hopeful the periods between waves become longer and longer.

Get into exercise, it is a great stress relief.

How about an update so the vets can see where you are at, any further progress, what about results of work exposure, is she job hunting, etc?

I have been on Anti Depressants for about 6 weeks, and I will admit that they have helped, but it still can't stop the thoughts after I have been triggered.

RoughRock:
Have you seen the post in managing triggers? It is most insightful.
I am crappy at linking but perhaps someone can help out with this.

Here you go.
Dr. Harley on Dealing with Triggers

The answer is simple - you are continuously triggered (as is she) because she still works with OM.

What is the plan to get her out of there?

I agree. When is she leaving that job?

Absolutely correct!

"Doctor - it hurts every time I nail my hand to this table. When will I feel normal again?"

Sir,

The goal in Plan A is to make love bank deposits.
Do NOT text these messages again.
If you seriously cant control yourself then just turn your phone off or post here first before replying to her texts.

Sir,

Did you post OM on Cheaterville?

Have you heard back from the workplace?
Did you send the workplace letter to the President and a key VP by certified mail?

I don�t plan on posting him on cheaterville, but If I had any proof of a physical affair at all, then I would in a heartbeat.

I did hear back from my wife�s work, and they said how extremely sorry they were that this happened, and that they would address the situation immediately. I later received an email that said they had met with the individual. Of course, I have no idea what they said to him, but they did end the email stating that if my wife has any problems whatsoever, to contact them immediately. The email I received, came from his boss, which is at a high level. As I said before, the OM is a Department head, and is over 5 other areas, with 5 supervisors under him. That is why the HR representative said that he had no business whatsoever talking to my wife. She has a lead and a supervisor that she should be bringing issues to, and then they present issues to him. My wife is very beautiful, and there is no doubt in my mind, that he went out of his way to get to know her.

My wife was upset originally when I sent the letter, but a few days later, she said she understood why I had to do what I did. My wife said he used to stroll through the area chatting with employees, a couple time a day, but since my letter, she has only seen him pass through once, and he didn�t talk to anyone.

As far as texting my wife things that I know I shouldn�t. I try so hard to avoid it, but it usually starts with something very simple, to which she will say something rude, like �Don�t bring up this subject again, or Don�t ask me if I have seen or talked to him, because I am so sick of it� and then escalates to the point that I am saying hurtful things. Last night I talked to my wife, and I said if I say something that indicates that I am struggling, that I need her to be kind and loving. In the past, when she does this, then my episode will pass without incident.

My wife refuses to leave the job, because of the 16 years of pension she would have to give up, not to mention the fact that she wouldn�t be able to make near that much money anywhere else. I told her that we would find a way to get by, and she says there is no discussing it. She will not leave. My only hope, is that he will get another job. He has no family here whatsoever, and my wife says he is always putting in for other jobs, because he is trying to move up in the company. These jobs he puts in for are typically out of state.

With that being said, I guess for the moment I am stuck in limbo, and the most I can do is work on avoiding love busters, and trying to deposit as many love units as possible.

Sir, you should post him on the internet exposure websites so that all of his co-workers and friends and family can see it.

Internet exposure really upsets cheaters.

Sir, there is no hope for recovery as long as she is in contact with him.
If she will not leave the job, the affair will continue.

If my wife will not quit her job, then what do I do from here? I am at a loss. I cannot force my wife to quit.

You should start planning on a separation. Your marriage will never make it this way and staying around will make you mentally and physically sick. The timeline should be gaged by how you are feeling. For example, when you feel your health starting to decline, you should plan to get out and go into Plan B.

In the meantime, you should keep her leaving the job on the front burner. Don't let her think you have backed down.

I would strongly suggest you reconsider this. You know they had an affair and that is what counts. Posting him on cheaterville would put pressure on him to leave the job.

So, just an update on my situation. I have taken the advice of this forum, and I have kept the issue of my wife leaving her job on the front burner. I bring it up almost daily. We always end up with my wife saying "We cannot afford to live without her income", and "I am not going to give up 16 years of pension, just because you over reacted to a friendship".
So, since exposure in mid august, things have been wonderful on the weekends, but as you guys warned me before, I am literally tormented to the core on days that she goes to work. Just the thought of her seeing him from a distance is torture. My wife thinks this is something I can control by just not thinking about it anymore. She will say "I never even see him at work at all". I tell her that I will never feel safe, and we will never get through this while she continues to work in the same building as him. I even said I don't even like the fact that we are in the same State as him. It is a vicious cycle, where she says I am blowing the situation way out of purportion.
So this morning, something came up about our situation, and I made a comment about her affair. She immediatly said "Don't call it an affair". She then says that it was never really an affair, because she never had romantic feelings for him. I told her that whenever she down plays the situation, and denies that it was an affair, it resets me all the way back to day one. Sometimes I feel like she has no clue of what this has done to me. I tell her it is not even so much about what happened, as it is about the feelings of betrayal that I felt. It is the loss of trust that I can�t get past. She lied right to my face so many times.
So, with that being said, I am still in Limbo. I told her that I can�t live like this for another 6 months.

I am really sorry you are going through this but I really think you need to do what these people are telling you. She is making her choice to stay and try to downplay what she has done. You have to take care of yourself. I would honestly just put a timeline on it. I would give her a month to decide. I think your going to have to stay firm and leave if she wont quit. I know you really love your wife and its clear you love her far more than she loves you.

Please listen to what the others have told you.

Clay

Hawk,
I have thought a lot about that scenerio, but I don't know how I could leave. We have 6 kids, and every day there are multiple things we both do to help the family function. I would not feel right about bailing out of that, and It would be nearly impossible to make that work.
With that being said, I also understand that it is not good for the kids to endure an unhealthy marriage either, so it is imperitive that we do something. I just don't know how to do it without coming out of this situation looking like a father that left his wife and kids.

RR,

Please reread Melody's and JK's posts to you from 8/21/14.

You haven't changed anything, so nothing has changed.

The Plan must be followed for the affair to end, and for recovery to have a chance.

If not, you'll be back here in November...and January...and..."updating" the forum about how nothing has changed.

But I KNOW you'll be more worse for the wear.

Helpfordad,
That is why I just asked how a guy with 6 kids should go about doing a seperation. I am not ready to uproot my family because my wife wont quit her job, and I don't have the slightest idea of how I would go about doing it.

RR,

Did you make any progress getting the OM fired?

Did you expose the OM widely?

God Bless
Gamma

Have you exposed them at their workplace?

BH,

I read through his posts, and he mentioned in August that he "exposed", but no where do I see he actually exposed them AT WORK.

Thus, he's creating his own issues now becasue his WW is still working -- every day -- with the OM, no?

I'm not sure he exposed this at the workplace; there's no incentive for his WW to leave the job.

Yes thank you.

If I remember correctly we tried telling him to give his WW 30 days to leave that job or he would expose at the workplace. Well it's been longer than 30 days and she refuses to leave the job in spite of the pain he endures every time she goes to work.

Yup.

And I think I shared with him what a doofus I was not listening to the vets, denying this was a 'must-do' for 3 freakin' extra tortuous months...

There's just no way around it: he must expose at the workplace to separate them at work to end WW's affair and have a chance of recovery.

There are no shortcuts.

Thanks, BH.

I exposed in the workplace. I wrote a detailed letter to upper management that said they would address the situation. Later they emailed me and said they had addressed the situation, but did not give me any details. My wife says that ever since then, he does not walk through the area on a daily basis, like he used to always do. She says she never see's him anymore, and for all she knows, he could have been fired.

One of the problems I have right now in the conversations with my wife, is that she does not consider what she did to be "Infidelity". She does not understand why I insist on her leaving her job, when she never had what she would call a romantic relationship outside of the Marriage. I know this is just her way of justifying her actions, but how do I argue from my end. How do I convince her, or show her that what she did was "Infidelity". I mean I know it was infidelity, and i have literally been destroyed by this situation, but she just thinks I have blown everything out of proportion.

Would it be a good idea to have her watch that video on "Just compensation". that someone sent me earlier today? It seams like anything I have her read on "Affairs", goes right in one ear, and out the other, because she will instantly say that her situation is different, and she did not have an affair.

If your WW doesn't feel she did anything wrong, I don't see how you can both move forward ~ until she admits what she's done, and recognizes the problem your stuck!.
Sounds like she's still "fogged" out.

She admits that it was an emotional affair, and that what she did was wrong, and she knows that the betrayal hurt me, but she does not think it was "infidelity". What are the arguments I should be making that prove to her that it was "infidelity".

Who / how many 'upper management contacted you directly to tell you they "addressed the situation"?

Did you ask them to define "addressed the situation"???

You are stuck. Your wife is fogged out.

You cant recover without implementing the EPs, which you havent done.

How long are you going to stay in limbo? That is your choice, as others have said, put a hard time line on it and stick to it.

Have you consulted an attorney yet? I would do that ASAP!!

Everyone is avoiding my original question today. How do I go into a plan B when I have 6 kids. I cannot just walk out. I would not feel right about that.

I just don't understand you moving onto Plan B, when it seems the steps of Plan A / EPs weren't even completed?

Sir, nobody told you to just "walk out" on 6 kids!
Why would you enter Plan B?

Did you ever expose the man on cheaterville?
This affair will never end as long as they have contact.

You should not argue with her.
I would simply say: "I feel devastated"

I was advised to plan for separation. I kind of thought that was meaning to give her an ultimatum of either quit your job by a certain date, or I will leave?

Isn't that what was meant here? I cannot control or force her to quit, and I cannot plan for separation, so I guess I am stuck in limbo.

1. Never leave your marital home(and call it a home)
2. I don't think anyone can Plan B when you live with a spouse, so you are in a poorly executed Plan A(no EP, ) with a fogged out wayward
-kind of forces you into Plan D(divorce), IF AND ONLY IF you are done with Plan A
3. One tactic would be to give her a deadline on the job - and have the divorce papers served if she doesn't take action
-this might shake her out of the fog, guaranteed to make her spitting mad
Another tactic - you could ask her to move out, don't argue, just say I am devastated, i want you to move out by XX date. You will need to be prepared to enforce your decision with papers or moving her stuff out and changing the locks

Of course these are drastic measures and controversial, but have been used in the past, so.......

4. Consult an attorney - each state is a little different, each county in the state has trends, each judge has a point of view
5. Don't argue anymore, with someone in the fog you might as well slam your head into a wall

You were not advised to separate very soon. You were told that the timeline should be gauged by how you are feeling.

Dr Harley recommends that men stay in Plan A for several months. He finds that most men have or can find the emotional strength to ride out the affair for some time, if it doesn't end on exposure. During that time you must avoid doing anything at all that makes love bank withdrawals, and make love bank deposits where she will let you.

The time to go to Plan B is when your love bank begins to deplete or your health suffers. At that time, Dr Harley recommends that, if you still have hope of recovering the marriage, YOU should move out without threats or anger. You tell her that this is the most painful event that you have ever lived through and you cannot take it any more. You do not ask or encourage your wife to move out if your goal is ever to recover the marriage. Dr Harley is firmly against asking the wife to move out in that circumstance.

Since you have children, you need to find out now from a lawyer what your rights and responsibilities towards them will be. You should aim for at least 50/50 residential custody. If you feel that you will be leaving them in an abusive situation then you should not leave, but ask a lawyer about gaining full custody. It may be possible to get a judge to stipulate that OM must not meet the children and certainly must not stay in your home.

All of this should be researched now, before it ever comes to the point of leaving. That is what "planning on a separation" means.

However, there is a hope that this is not even necessary. You haven't found out from HR whether that man still works there. Find that out and if he doesn't, that doesn't meant that the affair is definitely over and you should spy on her contacts, but it does mean that she is probably not seeing this man daily.

If he has left the job but they are still in contact, this is a standard affair which you first fight with Plan A. You do not move out at this early stage. Plan A is a lengthy process for men, if they want to do it the way Dr Harley advises.

Sugarcane is correct. Here is what Dr. Harley says on the matter.

Here is the entire thread on the matter. When Should a WW be asked to Leave?

I guess after a lot of thought over the weekend, I am just going into a long term Plan A. As painful as this year has been, I am not ready to plan for separation. I am going to work on not bringing up the affair whatsoever, and work extra hard for the next few months at depositing all the love units possible. I will however, bring up at least on a weekly basis, that I want her to find a new job, because I will never be okay with the situation as it is. I will do this as lovingly, and nice as possible, and emphasize that I only feel this way, because I care so much for the future of our marriage.

I will continue to keep a watchful eye, and snoop as much as possible, to watch for any sign of communication whatsoever. For the last two months, there has been no sign of communication at all, but she has told me about a few different encounters. The 1st was one day as he walked by, he muttered under his breath "It doesn't have to be weird", and on another occasion he stopped her in the hall, and asked "Has your husband calmed down yet"? I know that this is no indication, of whether or not there is some other communication going on. I also know, that even these small rare encounters cripple the recovery process, but I just don't know what else to do. The encounters that she mentioned, were prior to exposure, and she says that she has not even seen him in the area since exposure.(I know this also means nothing) I wish I could send a VAR into her work with her, but I just can't think of a way to make that happen, without her discovering it.

I guess right now, I have no other choice but to ride it out for a while. I have been on an AD (Welbutrin), for a few months, and this seams to have helped me stay focused.I will add, that ever since she changed her shift to Day shift, we have been able to find so much more time together. Now we see each other every evening, and go to bed together. I know that 16 years of working opposite shifts for our kids sake, was not good for our marriage. Early in the summer when I asked her to change shifts, she brought up how she didn't want to have to send our youngest son to "Daycare", I insisted that our Marriage needs to come first, and we will make the necessary adjustments where needed. I cannot force her to leave her job, but I will continue to do everything I can to improve our marriage.

I wish you luck.

So long as YOU allow your wife to still work with her AFFAIR PARTNER, her affair is STILL ACTIVE.


Since you have decided to abandon Dr. Harley's plan, and ignore workplace exposure, and follow Plan 'RR'....


Well, we all know where this is going, unfortunately.


Godspeed.

If I may, isn't Dr. Haley's advice for men regarding plan A and the stressful situation he would endure slightly contradicting. In the start here section of the SAA forum a thread is deliberateley highlighted "Men do not leave your home" with the examples of why not listed accordingly.

I understand all too well the never say die attitude in regards to saving ones marriage but if she, the Wife, doesn't relent on her affair however illicit she may be while continueing it, doesn't this enable her to do just what Harley says one whould not? By leaving her alone due to the stress she caused the Husband has now enabled the affair to take flight in the very home he worked to with whatever boundary the husband had in place now completely absent.

Wouldn't it make more sense to ask her to leave, albeit peacefully and respectfully, since it is her actions that have caused the marital turmoil to begin with?

Helpfordad,
As I said before, the last time you mentioned that, I have exposed in the workplace.

I have absolutely no evidence that the affair is ongoing, so what am I supposed to do? I have no other choice but to remain in plan A.

Here is the quote from doctor Harley I was given the other day.



Doesn't he say that I should remain in plan A as long as possible?

No. Dr. Harley is very clear that a husband in Plan A should not ask a cheating wife to leave the home.

RR,

I understand. However, I don't recall you ever addressed the questions several posters asked:

1. Who from / how many of 'upper management' contacted you directly to tell you they "addressed the situation"?

2. What does "they addressed the situation" mean? Was OM fired, removed from position, transferred?

3. Have you confirmed WW and OM do NOT work together any longer?


What say you?

This is the revised version of the letter, that I sent to her work. I sent this to multiple people, including his boss, and an HR representative. I decided that the first draft that I did was to lengthy, and I needed to clean it up a little. The only ones that actually replied back to me, were the HR person, and his boss. The HR person told me originally, that they would not be able to discuss details with me, and that I would probably get a standard reply. His boss is very high up, and is director of operations.


To whom it may concern,

This email is to bring a matter to your attention that may be a violation of your Company's Code of Conduct and/or other policies, procedures and business ethics.


XXXXXX, one of your department heads, pursued an inappropriate relationship with my wife XXXXXX . What started as compliments, progressed into long personal conversations in XXXXXX office. XXXXXX eventually gave my wife his personal cell phone number, which they began to use quite frequently. Over the course of a few months, they texted each other over 1,000 times. XXXXXX claims that towards the end of this relationship, XXXXXX began to make it clear that he wanted to have a physical relationship with her. At this point my wife made it clear to him that she just wanted to be friends, and didn't want to hurt her family. She cut off all communication with XXXXXX the first week of May. Aside from the potential sexual harassment claims this situation presents, it also shows the complete lack of ethics this Manager has in regards to employee/boss relationships.


The reason for this email, is since the ending of this relationship, my wife has stated to me many times that the work place has become very awkward. She has related a few situations to me that seemed as though XXXXXX was deliberately trying to make it awkward for her. She is also afraid that she could be discriminated against in the future. Though she has relayed these situations to me, she has stated that she is too nervous to come forward and say anything, in fear that it could have a negative affect on her job. As her husband, I feel inclined to speak out at this time. I informed XXXXXX that I would be sending you this email.


My intent is not to provoke a negative situation. I only want to bring this to your attention in hopes that we can somehow resolve this conflict before it becomes a hostile work environment for XXXXXX. I am sure that at the very least addressing these ethics concerns with XXXXXX, can help to resolve this in a proper manner.

If you have any questions, please call me at XXX-XXX-XXXX. Otherwise, I will anticipate a response from you once you have investigated these concerns and taken appropriate corrective action.

Regards,

XXXXXX



This is the reply I received from his boss.

Xxxx,

I just want to let you know that I have received this email and I will take care of the situation today. I will let you know when I have had a conversation with Xxxx. If Xxxxx continues to feel that there is an issue or if she feels that this will impact her situation here, please encourage her to come and speak to me. She just needs to make an appointment with my Managers assistant. Xxxxx xxxxx. I�m so sorry this has happened and I commit to both of you that I will take steps to address this immediately.

Xxxxxx xxxxxx
Operations Manager

Later I received a reply that said the situation had been addressed. Since then, my wife has not seen him come through the area like he used to do everyday. She says she has no idea what they did, but I personally think he probably received a strict warning. Anything I say, would just be speculation.

Without saying too much, this is a " high level" government agency, and there is no chance they are going to give me details of what they said or did to him, and quite frankly, I don't really want my wife to be trying to find out.

Bottom line is, I feel like I have done everything I can as far as work exposure.

Sir, this is the letter you should have sent.
Your letter sounds weak.

Government agency?
The way you rock the boat with an agency is to contact your member of Congress.
That causes 100 times more scrutiny than just contacting the agency

Jedi,
I pretty much used that exact template, but I had to modify it to my wife's situation. A lot of the stuff said in the template you used, would be a lie if I said them. The contents in my email are true to my knowledge, and I also sent a PDF file that showed a whole bunch of texts between them.

I have exposed in the workplace to the best of my ability. I am not going to tell a bunch of lies. If I did that, I would be stooping to the level of those who have hurt me. Sorry if that isn't good enough for you.

RR,
You continue to hide behind your personal ethics/moral code and symantics. While it is admirable that "you won't stoop to the level of others", in a war, you need to use all weapons at your disposal. And you are in a war for your marriage.

Read the Art of War, apply the tactics.

I fear that you have let so many opportunities pass.

Jedi proposed you contact your congressman, that is an interesting tactic, use the correct letter template this time.

Sir,
Listening to you water down your wife's affair to "inappropriate relationship" reminds me of President Clinton on television admitting he had an "inappropriate relationship."

I think when he did that, he forever changed the definition of "adultery" to "inappropriate relationship."

Half of your letter was defending and excusing your wife's affair.
It's little wonder nobody took you seriously.

It's not my marriage. It's yours. It's your life.

Weeks ago, I suggested you post OM on Cheaterville to put heat on this affair. Was that done?

Your marriage cannot survive if she does not leave the workplace. You should not only change jobs but move far away.

Every agency has a liason that interacts with members of Congress.
When the liason receives correspondence from a member of Congress, it receives special priority. It is flagged and any file involved with the inquiry is flagged.

The agency literally dots the i's and crosses the t's in it's investigation and/or response to the member of Congress.

You have nothing to lose by doing this.

RR,

"pursued an inappropriate relationship with my wife..."

"since the ending of this relationship..."

Really? No wonder their response seems as wishy-washy as your wording in your letter!

Let's translate:

"My WW and XXXX are engaged in an adulterous affair that continues so long as they work together at your place of business....etc"

Now, wording like THAT will get you somewhere, and your W outta there!

Actually, just the opposite is true. Government agencies are more accountable to disclose their handling of ethics matters than private employers are.

So, like I said before...you want me to tell a complete lie. I have absolutely no proof that they have even said a word to each other. I am not going to be spreading lies, by saying they are engaged in an adulterous affair. If I had even a shred of evidence, a note,a text content of any kind, a voice recording of anything. I exposed the best I could with the only evidence I had, which was a phone bill of texts between them, and my wife's testimony.

Roughrock,

Do it your way.

But you may want to set aside a savings account for your wife's affair.
If you continue to protect her, it is only a matter of time until she demands an open marriage or divorce.

Well, you completely ignored my post. I said that you need to find out whether he still works there or not. If he doesn't, there is no need for any more letters to his employers.

I don't see how you can move forward until you find that out. It can't be that hard. You certainly don't have to ask your wife to find out.

Sugar,

Thank you...I've asked several times, but seem to get no answer to a very simple question:

Does his wife's affair partner still work with her or not.

This is attainable information, and vital for having a plan for moving forward.

RR,

In my humble opinion...phone bills with a multitude of calls/texts between a married woman and a man who is NOT her husband, in addition to her OWN testimony, IS enough evidence, without the need to "lie".

Jedi,
I am doing it Dr. Harley's way. How do you suggest I force my wife to quit a job. Dr Harley suggests that you give the spouse a month to resign from the job, and then expose. I did warn my wife that I was going to expose to her job, and then I did. The problem goes back to the other thing he mentions in the same article, where you should find proof that would convince a jury. I gave her employer every ounce of evidence I had, problem is there is no evidence I have that is grounds to fire him or my wife. Believe me, I wish I had something that would seal the deal. Also, a term that Dr. Harley uses in a lot of his articles, is "I usually recommend". He recognizes that every situation is different, and cannot be handled exactly the same. I have told my wife that I insist she leave her job, or our marriage will not fully recover. She still has her agency to choose for herself. I cannot force her.

Also, it is real easy to say."You need to move". That is an easy statement to make from your end. I am not going to uproot my family from a great place that we have built our dream home, and we live around family. We built this home 11 years ago, and to do all of this because my wife texted another man? If, like I mentioned before, that there was one shred of evidence that pointed towards a PA, or that they have been continuing this affair, in any way, then I would take drastic measures. You are putting my situation under a giant umbrella of "Everyone's situation is the Same"

Suger,
I have absolutely no way of finding out if he is still there, but like I said, I imagine that he still is. Like I mentioned in earlier posts, he really has no reason to even be in her area on a regular basis. I think that is why he has disappeared. My guess is, that he was warned by upper management, that this is a sexual harassment nightmare waiting to happen, and to stay completely away from the area. obviously, I am trying to find out, but the only contact I have at her work, is a woman that was friends with my wife on Swing shift. She says they have not seen him for a while.

helpfordad,
In the 3 months of phone bills I had access to, there was a single phone call that lasted for 5 minutes, the rest of the communication that I have proof of, was the data showing multiple texts between them. My wifes "Testimony", is the information I gave them in the email. I guess I could give them a recording of a conversation between her and I, but all that would contain, is my wife saying "he was just a friend, and nothing more", and that she loves me, and didn't understand why it was dangerous to have him as a friend. My point is, I do not have enough information/evidence, to start throwing around the term "Adulterous Affair".

I am not protecting anybody... you are just asking me to make stuff up out of thin air. I have dug, and dug for months, to get the story that I do have. She is completely open with me with all her passwords. I have complete access to both of her emails, and her Ipad. I have her facebook password, and I got in and viewed her activity log, and she searched his name a few times, and was never friends with him on facebook. I installed a key logger on our PC, and her Ipad, because I know that you can message someone even if you are not friends, and she only gets on facebook maybe once a week, if that, and she has never tried to message him through facebook, that I can tell. Also, since Mid June, he blocked me and my wife from being able to even find him on there at all. I was able to create fake account, and find him, but he has blocked anyone that is not friends with him, from seeing anything. Not that that matters, because back when I could see his Profile and pictures, he did not have a single picture of himself, but only a bunch of random pictures, so I don't even have a clue what this D-bag looks like.

This is why I mentioned yesterday that I am going to remain in plan A, and continue watching like a hawk, and trying my best to deposit love units.

Wiser people than I are on this forum, but I would think you'd be able to investigate him on LinkedIn...or find out what car he drives and scan the lot? You have his name -- you can't call a directory at a government agency to verify employment?

I'm just saying supporting what Jedi, SC, the others have said -- YOU need to verify that the OM does NOT work there...and, I;ll tell you from my own experience, even if the OM is not there, you're W will need to leave, or eventually want to leave, that workplace anyway.

Seriously?

You can't search the government department website?

You can't call the switchboard and ask to be put through to him (then hang up before he answers, perhaps)?

You can't search for him on LinkedIn?

You can't work out how emails are formed for that department (e.g first.surname@gov.com)?

You can't observe the building?

You can't hire a PI?

For so many of us, even for those who work for government departments as I used to do, finding out whether we are still employed there can be done in an instant with the Internet. If not, there are numerous other ways.

Anyway, you seem happy with your course of action so I'll leave you to it.

So, I just heard from my contact from swing shift, as I had not heard from her since last week. She say's she saw him, but he still does not come through the area. So, as I thought earlier, he still has a job. Obviously, something was done by upper management, or he wouldn't have disappeared like he did. None of this matters, because I am still faced with the same situation, and that is that my wife refuses to leave her job, and now when I bring it up, she gets mad and say's, "We will not be able to pay our bills if I quit", and "I am not going to give up 16 years of pension, just because you are a controlling jealous person". She started crying the other day, and was saying "I messed up, and I am sorry, but I don't see why I need to leave my job over this". I told her that we would find a way to get by, and she just thinks I am talking crazy.

Don't you think it is counter productive to continue pushing this issue? I only see her resenting me if I continue to pursue this avenue. Isn't this "Love Busting". I told her the other day, that I would try my best not to bring up the "Affair" anymore, but that I will continue to insist that she leave her job. I said over and over, that as long as she works there, I will never feel safe.

Your course of action will eventually lead to TRIGGERS.
Since she is not leaving the job and not moving, you and her will eventually get hit with triggers.
The triggers could send you all the way back to DDay or her back prior to DDay.
Triggers guarantee resentment, anxiety, fear, anger just to name a few things you will experience.
I understand the difficulty, but your odds are getting longer and longer.
To have a slight chance to avoid triggers, one of them needs to leave that job. Since your wife is resisting, you have other avenues suggested on the forum to make life difficult for the OM to stay at the job.
All the posters are trying to help, and you probably feel beat up.
You are going through the most gut wrenching time of your life, and none of want you to fail.

It is not a Love Buster to tell her that you are bothered by her keeping her job and asking her to quit. That is called polite communication.

Her refusal to quit the job and join you on a path of recovery is a Love Buster.

Nothing will improve as long as they work together.
It is inevitable that they will see each other some time or another.

RR,

The POS involved with my W eventually moved to other work in anorther building on the hospital campus...you know, so he didn't need to "come through her area".

Sure. And I have a bridge to sell you...

Many months AFTER I exposed at the workplace and got OM FIRED from the job, and into recovery, my W shared how odd that the POS seemed to find MANY reasons to "come through the area".

Funny how people will park so far away from their job site....or volunteer for the most menial delivery errands...or go out of their way to cut through buildings...or use up their entire lunch period to ride an elevator in a building across campus...or bypass the lunch cafe 20 yeards away for the one 200 yards away...

Sure.

They CAN NOT work together.

I'd take that a few steps further. It's not just a love buster - it is a deal breaker.

And you are wise not to feel safe as long NC for LIFE has not been established. Of course you do not feel safe when your wife leaves for the scene of the crime everyday. That is not jealous or controlling but a normal and expected feeling for any BS.



This is the controlling statement here...and it is a common tactic of waywards to turn things around on the BS.




Your WW understands full well why she needs to leave that job. She doesn't WANT to leave it and is trying to convince you that she must stay. That is ok if she is not interested in recovering the marriage.

NebDane,
Triggers are already a major problem. Someone sent me a video the other day of Dr. Harley talking about Just Compensation, and my wife actually watched it with me. One of the things that he talked about in the video, is that every time she see's the person, it is not only a risk to re-igniting the affair, it is also an offense to the spouse. Not only that, but every time you see the person, the spouse is going to re-experience the feelings of the affair all over again. Now I know that this has been repeated over and over again on this thread, but this is the first time she actually heard it in that way, and I could tell it clicked in her brain, and a lot of stuff made sense to her. We have had a lot of conversations about how amazing our marriage seems on the 4 days she is off, and then the three days she works, I am triggered by thoughts of her accidentally seeing him, which leads to me feeling absolutely miserable and beat up by the time I get home. I try my best to hide it and put on a happy face, but she can still sense it. Then we have the same conversation about how I will never feel safe as long as she works with him. After she listened to Dr Harley talk about how I re-experience those feelings every time she goes to work, then me struggling every time she goes to work made sense to her.

I thought that after I exposed in the workplace, that I would do better, but I still struggle every time she works. I have a knot in my stomach, and a tight shaky feeling in my chest the whole time she works. I am constantly triggered, and I do feel the same pain over and over again. I would even say at times is seams worse. Then the whole 4 days she is off work, I feel like a million bucks, and we spend so much time together, and everything feels good again. It is the craziest roller coaster I have ever been on. It takes me from the highest highs, to the lowest lows. I know that I cannot go on this way forever.

Like pokerface just mentioned, I think she knows that she needs to leave. I have seen it in her eyes lately, that she knows that I will never be okay with it, and I will always struggle.

Sometimes on days that she works, I struggle with resentment. My hurt will sometimes turn into "How could she say that she loves me, and then lie right to my face". It has caused me to have temptations to have my own affair. I say temptations, because I do not want that at all, and I know that would make things 10x worse, but those kind of thoughts sometimes pop into my head, where as the past 18 year, I never ever thought about things like that. I just see myself as extremely vulnerable, in an area that I have always been so strong in. If another woman right now told me that she wanted to get to know me better, I don't know that I could resist. Just the thought of feeling wanted again is enough to drive me mad. My wife tells me that she wants me, and that she never wanted him, but it is like my brain is in protective mode, and will not believe her. She says it all the time, and it doesn't click in me.

So in the text that I highlighted above, I recognize that triggers cause all of these things come and go on the bad days. It is like I see them coming from a mile away, and I can't stop from being triggered. Once triggered, I am stuck in a state of hopelessness, that is really hard to snap myself out of.

I saw myself in some family videos the other day, and I started crying because I wanted so bad to feel like I used to feel back then. I felt so safe and secure. I didn't have a care in the world. Now I exist in a state of constant fear. Now I don't find joy in any of the things I used to love to do. Some of my favorite hobbies don't even interest me anymore.

Sorry for the rant...as you can probably tell, my wife is working today.

Sometimes on days that she works, I struggle with resentment. My hurt will sometimes turn into "How could she say that she loves me, and then lie right to my face". It has caused me to have temptations to have my own affair. I say temptations, because I do not want that at all, and I know that would make things 10x worse, but those kind of thoughts sometimes pop into my head,

I go through this, too. How can he say he loves me, is IN love with me and me alone, and then lie to me? I don't recall love meaning lying. I have been tempted as well to have my own "secret friend." I agree it would make things so much worse, though.

Sir,
I feel like you can't stand a long term Plan A.
I would set a deadline of 6 months and if she still refuses to leave the job and write a no contact letter then file for divorce.

Would your wife be willing to speak with Steve Harley?
I have heard that he is good with people in the fog

I think I am going to set a deadline for January. This has been the hardest year of my life, and I want to start 2015 out the right way.
I have tried and tried to avoid this, but I can see now, that if I continue to live like this, we will end up divorced anyway. I love her with all my heart, but I cannot spend the rest of my life not being able to trust her. I have learned through this, that trust is the most important thing, that a married couple has. Without it, there is no safety and security. Without these, how will you ever truly find peace and joy.

At least now, when she can tell that I am struggling with my thoughts, she doesn't say "Why aren't you over this by now?" she now understands that I will never be "Over it" while there is any chance that she may run into him. I want to have a truly recovered marriage. I don't want to fail again years down the road, because we continued on with a crippled marriage.

I tried for a while to convince myself that overtime I would get over the hurt and painful feelings, but it has been 4 months since Dday 2,(I consider the original betrayal back in November and December Dday 1), and sometimes it feels as fresh as if I just found out that day.

The main thing I need to focus on right now, is being the best father and husband on the planet. I also need to force myself to get motivated again with some of my favorite hobbies. Maybe this will help me avoid the bad days. I also want to start working out on a regular basis, so I will feel healthy. I have actually lost 25 lbs since January, but I don't feel very healthy.

I just want to feel like my old self again someday...

I would start preparing for separation now so that you are ready.

You already don't sound well and your WW is deeply in the fog with no expectation of a separation from the OM - I would only expect her attitude to remain the same or to even worsen.

Start thinking about living arrangements and see a lawyer.

So last night we were headed to my son's football game, and in the nicest way possible, I mentioned that I can't do this forever, and that if she is in the same job situation come January, then I will be forced to move in with my parents for my own mental well being. Well all hell broke loose. she was pissed. She said I can't believe you are threatening me with an ultimatum. She said you might as well just leave right now then, because I am not leaving my job. I told her that I love her with all my heart, and I want our marriage to work, but as long as she still works with him, I will never feel safe in our marriage, and we will never rebuild the trust that we need to have a lasting marriage. She said "I don't know why you can't get over this. I have done everything you have asked". I replied, that she had not yet done the first and most important thing on the list, and that is to end all contact. So, for a couple hours I was able to remain calm and loving, but then she started into the "I don't know why you have blown this so far out of proportion", and "He was just a friend, that's it". So then I started love busting a little by saying when you keep a friendship a secret from your spouse, then it is more than just friends. Then I said that by making those decisions, to lie to me, she was basically choosing him over our marriage. I brought up how it made me feel so alone and unwanted.

So, this got us on the topic of her saying "I don't know why you feel like I didn't want you. So I asked her to look at it through my perspective. I said look at this night, which is one of many examples, March 17th, I had to fill in on swing shift, and while working swings, I had a lot of downtime that I could text her back on forth. Well, after a handful of texts, she told me that she could not text anymore that night, because she had to stay busy. So I told her, that I don't understand why I feel so disconnected from you? I feel so alone. She said "I don't know why you feel that way". So a couple months later, when I found out about all the texting, I, like so many others on here, started digging into everything I could, and trying to remember dates, and what we were doing on certain days. Well, I remembered that night very clearly, because of the lonely, emotionally disconnected state that I was in. Well, it turns out, that on that night, She texted me about 10 times, and she texted him like 90 times. You could see on the timeline, where all of the sudden my number stopped showing up on there, and then there conversation really got going. They texted each other until past midnight. I said this is just one of many examples. How am I supposed to believe you when you said you wanted me, when you were not even willing to talk to me in my time of need? How do you think that makes me feel?

Anyways, the reason I bring that up, is later when we got home, she was still steaming, and out of nowhere, she says"Alright, Fine. I will quit my job" She then starts saying stuff like. I realize that if I don't do something, we will end up getting divorced. Then she told me about how she wants to be with me forever, and that she will do whatever it takes to make this work.

So, I am seeing glimpses of her coming around. She is starting to see and understand why we need to change things in our marriage, and build an affair proof marriage. I will keep you updated on the job situation. I will believe it when I see it, but it does show that she is coming to a realization.

Although this is good, because she's never said this before. I strongly caution you to watch her actions. Ask her, when will she be quitting. Is she going to start looking now?

Remind me again, did she change all her contact information?

Roughrock18

A proper Plan A to Plan B comes without warning for a lot of reasons but the main reason is because it comes out as an ultimatum to the WW spouse and causes them to say anything to prevent you from doing plan B as they do there on planning. You are now in a situation where she is motivated to lie to you to prevent you from going to plan B.

You were suppose to stay in plan A while preparing for plan B. It's going to be hard for you to deposit love units while this 'ultimatum' is hovering over your relationship. It will now become a big part of your conversations with her, as she works to convince you to change your mind.

I don't know if she has enough love units for you to leave her job, but your last conversation didn't add any. Plan A is designed to add as much love units as possible so that if you have to go into Plan B, your spouse has enough love units for you to motivate them to make the changes to get you back.

If you can't stay in plan A (which is totally understandable), you need to move to plan B because plan C does not work. The longer you stay in plan C the less likely it will be to recover your marriage. So either stay in plan A or move to plan B (so that you and her are not withdrawing any more love units from each other).

One demand that is acceptable in Plan A is to say that the affair must end to be married to you.

So, the ultimatim mentioned of leaving the marriage was in that vein of conversation.

Other than that,

in Plan A you would avoid most relationship talk, attempt to show the willingness to meet needs (though it might be blocked by a wayward), show yourself as attractive and kind even in this horrible situation.

Update on my situation. In the past I have found this to be very therapeutic, so I am just going to run through a few things that have happened since I last posted in September. First of all, things between me and my wife have been very good 90% of the time. I actually feel like myself again most days.

I have seen some major changes in my wife. Back in August when I exposed, she was so different. She was very defensive, and would fight me in everything I tried to get her to do. She refused to change shifts, and she absolutely refused to help me in the effort to put EP�s in place. Then a few weeks after exposure, it seemed like she started to open up to me more, and I actually was getting glimpses of the woman I fell in love with. Back when she fought me on everything, I was very insistent, that I would never be comfortable with the fact that she still worked in the same department as him, and that I would never feel safe in our marriage. Out of the blue one day, she tells me that she is going to go to his boss, and insist that they transfer her to another department. This surprised me because she was not willing to even discuss things like this before.

So, after meeting with the Operations manager, she said she could tell that after my exposure letter,(which as many of you said was too nice, and I now agree), when they pulled him in to reprimand him, that he blamed everything on her, and said he had nothing to do with the situation. This made my wife mad, and finally she was on board that she had to say more. So together we put together a much more detailed email of everything that he had said to her, and that clearly he had everything to do with this situation. It felt so good, that my wife was actually helping put EP�s in place. After this next email, the operations manager called her in again, and was very pissed, and said �Did he really say all of these things to you�? My wife confirmed that indeed he had said these things. After this, everything changed at her work. She said that the Operations manager told her that he would personally see to it, that she would be transferred, and that the OM would immediately be moved out the department. So in the month of October, all of these things started to take place. My wife said at work it was really weird, because they had these big meetings, where that told everybody that the OM/department head was being transferred, and that there currently wasn�t anyone to take his place. My wife is being transferred to another division, and she is excited, because it is really hard to get into this division. She has been stuck in her department for 16 years, because she is only part time, and all of the openings for other areas she applied for, would not take her because she was part time. So I feel so much better about her work situation, and I am not constantly triggered all day when she goes to work.

Another thing that has really helped our marriage, is that she is now working day shift. Because of Daycare concerns in the past, for 16 years we worked opposite shifts, which I believe is part of what contributed to our problems in the first place. Now that she is Days, I see her every evening, and we have dinner as a family, and I feel so much more emotionally connected with her. Every night before we go to sleep, we are able to talk about stuff, and it has really improved things between us.

So now about that 10% of the time where we are not doing so good. A few weeks ago I was looking through her phone, and I was reading a conversation from a friend of hers at work. They were talking about random work related things, and then her friend says �Did you hear that they are transferring �Ted�/om�? Well then the conversation didn�t make sense, and the next text was an hour later. So this peaked my curiosity, and I looked on the Verizon usage, and sure enough, she deleted 5 texts, and of course I knew that is was because she didn�t want me to read them. I asked her about it, an she got all defensive and mad, and said that she just didn�t want me to freak out, that they talked about him. I told her that is was deceitful, and that it hurt me, that after all we have been through, that she would still think it was a good Idea to hide things from me. She texted her friend, and said please forward me the conversation we had the other day about �Ted�, because I deleted it and my husband wants to read it. I was not happy about this, because I told her that it didn�t matter what the texts said, but it was the deception that hurt me. Her friend forwarded the texts, and I was able to read the 5 that she had deleted, and they didn�t really say anything that would have upset me. She was just telling her that she was part of the reason he was being transferred. I told my wife, that I can handle anything that she says to anyone, but what hurts the most, is when I feel that I am being deceived. Anyways, we had a pretty good fight that night, and then worked things out. Things have been very good since that night, and she continues to do things that surprise me, and make me feel like my old self again.

By no means do I feel like we are in the clear, but I do feel like we have made some major progress, and I am happier than I have been in a long, long time. I am just trying to deposit love units whenever I can, and avoiding LB�s at all cost. The thing I struggle with the most, is that sometimes I feel resentment and hate towards her for how cruel and cold she was back in the spring, and I just fight through those feelings. I am triggered way less often, but the feelings can still come on so strong, even after all this time.

I hope others read your post and see that things can change and that following the plans and not cherry picking is the best chance.
Especially around exposure in the workplace.

I can honestly say, that without the workplace exposure, I would still be suffering daily, like I did for almost four months. I was so afraid to expose in the workplace, but now looking back, it was one of the first times in all this mess, that I felt like I had some control in my crazy life. It was liberating.

I still struggle with resentment, when I am triggered by certain things, but I really do love my wife so much, and it scares me to death to think I almost lost her. I want to do everything I can in the future, to fortify our marriage against this kind of thing.

Was the OM transfered to another dept in the same company? Is he in the same building?

What is triggering you?

Yes, he still works for the same company, but different building. I was really hoping he would get fired, but they just transferred him to a new division. The chances of her seeing him are very slim, but still possible. I told my wife, that I will still never feel completely safe while he works in the same state, let alone for the same company.

As far as what is triggering me. I used to get triggered every time she worked, but that doesn�t bother me at all anymore. I still do get triggered by certain songs, or places we used to go while I was being deceived. For example, there was an Ice cream place that she loves, and I relate that place to a bad moment in the past. Whenever she mentions going there now, it just takes me back to that time, and there is no way in hell I want to go there now. This occurs with Restaurants, and a variety of thing and places we used to go, but usually there is a specific memory related to the place. There are a ton of places we used to go back then, that do not bother me at all.

I mentioned last week, that I still struggle with resentment, because I feel like she does not even have a clue what she put me through. I have never suffered my whole life like I did this year. I didn�t know pain and loneliness like that was even possible. I am not the same person I was a year ago. Sometimes I look at her, and think �How could the woman I devoted my life to, be so cold and mean in my hour of need�. After D-day 1, I thought things were better, and then behind me back she started things up again, and she would just lie right to my face, and even though she knew that what she was doing was causing me extreme pain, she just continued to do it, and watch me suffer. That is what made D-day 2, last May, so much more painful. I read Dr. Harleys article on resentment the other day, and it rang true in a lot of areas.

Most of the time however, I have been better then ever. I feel like myself again, and I can honestly say I am Happy again. I sleep so good now. For 10 months, I would wake up constantly in the night. I could not shut my brain off. Lately I just feel peaceful at night. She is so much more tuned into my needs. I feel so emotionally connected to her now. We are so nice to each other too. This might sound lame, but some times I feel like we are newly weds.

If you move away and she finds another job these triggers would go away.

OK, I am glad you recognize this is not a safe situation. I agree that a move is probably your best bet but at the very least you need to get her out of there ASAP. Keep this on the front burner while you continue to Plan A your W.

I honestly would rather deal with occasional triggers vs. uprooting my whole family. We have 6 kids, and live in a beautiful small town, and we are close enough to her family and my family. This is where we want to raise our kids. Some of the places that trigger me, are national chains, so I don't know if I could avoid triggers altogether.

When I am triggered now, I can usually work things out in my head a lot faster then before. I just try and find something to keep myself busy, and avoid talking to my wife until I am calmed back down. Also, they are not near as often. I still think about her EA every day, but it rarely escalates to the point I am physically ill anymore.

I have also learned the importance of never bringing up the affair. No matter what my intentions are, it never turns out good. It brings her down, and I can feel that she withdraws from me. I have decided that whenever I feel like bringing something up about the affair, I instead try to do something nice for her. I have found that when I make an extra effort to show her kindness, I can feel her open up and be extra affectionate towards me. Even though deep down I am thinking that she should be bending over backwards for me, for the pain she put me through. I just have to work through the negative thoughts, and focus on the positive. I have had to bite my tongue on more than one occasion.

Susie,
Sorry, I submitted my reply before I was able to read yours. My wife is fully aware that I want her to find another job. I was so proud of her when she was finally brave enough to go to the Operations Manager, and demand a transfer, and then afterwards she finally spoke up to management and HR on her own, which pulls a lot more weight. I have been so pleased with her efforts. She has changed shifts also, which has made a huge difference in our UA time. When I bring up her quitting, she breaks down in tears, and says I have done everything to try and make things right. I have found it is better not to bring it up anymore.

By not correcting the work situation, you would be Cherry Picking on Dr. Harley's plan for a successful reconciliation without eliminating ALL avenues of contact.

You even admitted in your previous post to the one I quoted, that following the exposure steps were undeniably the reason things had progressed so far.

Don't back down because of affair related crocodiles tears. Your Wife brought this upon herself and included you in the wreckage.

If she has been happier so far, AND wants even more improvement in your marriage, she should understand the significance and be on board with a successful plan WITHOUT deviation.

LTL

Sir, moving is not an option.
If you do not move and your wife and the affair partner have a chance of seeing each other because they work for the same company (which they do) then you will have a false recovery.

You have no choice in this matter if you want to follow Dr. Harley's program.

I'm confused. Did you expose the affair to senior management?

Okay, I read back through your thread.
I don't consider this affair over. Just underground. She probably has an affair phone so you can't look at the Verizon website and monitor her communication.

Do you have a GPS on her vehicle?

You need to continue requesting that she leave the job and write a No Contact letter to OM.

What is happening is that you are allowing your wife to dictate marital recovery and you are only setting yourself up for more stress and heartache.

Great news. I found out that the OM no longer works there. As I said before, when I exposed in the workplace, they ended up transferring him to another department, and also transferred my wife. Well I guess not long after they transferred him, something didn't work out, and he left. I know this is the case, because I have been using the verizon message app, and my wife's texts come right to my Ipad, and she has no idea. Anyways her and another coworker were talking about how nobody had seen him in 3 weeks, and then later, the other girl said someone told her that he no longer works there, and nobody knows what happened, or where he went. So, before I left to work this morning, I just asked my wife if she has seen him around at all lately(even though from the texts, I knew she hadn't) She told me that he doesn't even work there anymore, and she doesn't know anything about where he went.

Another thing that I discovered through the texts, that kind of bothers me, is after I did the work exposure, she said she did not see him around anymore. Well in the texts between her and her coworker, she said a couple months ago, after I had sent the email to his boss, she tried to say hi to him, just to see if he was bitter, and he turned the other way and walked off. Then she told her coworker that she had not attempted to say hi after that, and that he pretty much hates her guts.
The reason this bothers me, is it shows that she was still willing to reach out to him and test the waters. Even after all that we have been through. It also confirms to me what everyone said back in the summer. Without the workplace exposure, I have no doubt that things would have started right back up. That is what ultimately convinced me back in July, that it needed to happen, because I was already seeing signs of things starting again.

So, Where do I go from here? Right now I am tired, and I am not even the same person I was a year ago. I have absolutely no trust or faith in my wife. I am confident the affair is completely over, but still do not feel safe. Another thing that has bothered me lately, is I have been thinking a lot about whether or not I still even want to be married to her. I used to feel like we had a purpose and a plan. Everything seems broken. Even at work, I have no drive or desire to do better. I am completely drained.

Has she written a NC letter? What has been done from this list? Can you two get away for a vacation?


From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.

These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.


Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.

You are experiencing triggers.
You need to implement the EP's above, which include her quitting that job(she will be triggered always). As you found out, why is she even talking about the OM to a co-worker, it sets your recovery back to day 1 in a sense? This should tell you that she still has a wayward mindset.

She will never quit her job.

She refuses to give up her 16 years of pension, and she could never make that much money working part time anywhere else. When I mention it, she acts like I am crazy, because we barely make ends meet as it is.

I told her that I dont care about money, and we could make it work, but she refuses. One day I mentioned it again, and she started crying, and said "I have done everything you asked, and your still not happy".

She says that if she quits her job, I will still be resentful. Part of me thinks she could be right.

That OM is gone from the workplace is GREAT!! I know it sucks that you found this information because WW asked a co-worker about OM but being that OM was still at the workplace was going to keep OM in her mind. I would not get stuck on her talking about the OM. His presence at the workplace was going to continue that dynamic. You now have confirmation he is gone!!

Have you considered taking some time off work? With the holidays coming up, that could be a good time for you and W to spend more UA time together..and give yourself a break. Wondering about workplace contact put stress on you. Anyone would be tired dealing with that.

I told my wife at lunch today, that I am still triggered when she is at work, and she was confused and said, "he is not even here anymore, why are you triggered"? I told her that when I am triggered I start thinking about everything that happened, and feel emotions and pain from the past. Like I will wonder how she could say she loves me and then lie right to my face over and over.

Over the past few months, we have done so much better at UA time, but during the week it is a lot more difficult, and that combined with the fact that she was at work(the place where all of this happened), I usually have one or two days where I am triggered and have a rough day. Once I work through that, the weekends are wonderful, and I actually feel closer and more in love with her on the weekend when we both try and spend lots for time, and pamper each other.

Basically my life is a roller coaster ride still. I go from extreme highs to extreme lows from one day to the next. I was triggered last friday, because is was the anniversary of DDay 1. I don't even know why that bothered me so much. I think it was the reflection of what a wreck my life has been the entire year since that date.

I just want to be able to trust her with my whole heart again. I never doubted her before all of this happened. In my eyes, she was the most honest, loving genuine person I had ever met. Now when I think of her, I see a sneaky,lying, unfaithful woman that I can't believe anything from.

Rough, I am not trying to minimize the trigger you feel from her workplace but she was working with the OM until just recently. When you asked her about OM, she was truthful. Give it some time. You just learned that POSOM is gone. With both of them still at the same workplace, you were not going anywhere in recovery since contact was a CONSTANT worry for you...no amount of UA was going to cure that either. This is why NC is paramount not just to affair proof the marriage but for the BS to avoid a nervous breakdown.

If you are still feeling severely triggered after the new year then you may want to revisit the issue but give yourself a break.

I like that advice. We are actually going on a family trip this weekend. I need to just have a great time and spend as much time with her as possible, and not bring any of this up at all. I am very glad that he is no longer working there. I feel so much better about things now, even though I know we are a long way from recovery, I feel like a major obstacle has been removed.

To answer brainhurts from earlier. Yes, she sent him a no contact letter, but there was a couple of incidents of contact since then, because of the fact they were still working so close. One of the incidents was when he stopped her in the hall and asked if I had calmed down yet? That really pissed me off. As far as everything else on the ending an affair list, we have done everything on the checklist.

Can you two get away for a vacation? Just the two of you? Dr. Harley recommends this alot when recovering from an affair.

We are trying to plan something. I do think it would be really good for us.

I have been working out the last couple weeks, and I am trying to work on myself. It is really hard for me to get over the feeling of not being wanted, and being tossed to the side.

Yes that is a tough feeling to get over. Have you thought about ADs to help you get through this tough time? Dr. Harley frequently recommends them. Just temporarily until you get through this stressful time?

I have been on AD's since June, which I know have helped, but it is still impossible not to think about things. I am going to try and be positive, and have a good weekend with my family.

And how much of that will be UA time? Why don't you concentrate on scheduling a fun date for you and your WW?

Well, we are traveling with the kids for the next four days, but I do plan on getting some UA time. Today is my daughters 18th birthday, and she will be with us on this trip, so we can definitely have her watch the kids a couple times while we get away.

I need to start keeping track of our UA time per week. I really have no idea exactly what it is. My wife and I have been talking about emotional needs the last few months, and We have been doing much better at some of them, compared to in the past.

We have really done better at recreational companionship, sexual fulfillment, and affection, but I feel like my needs for conversation are not being met. When we have time to talk, I barely get a word in, and the whole time I have to hear about everything that is going on in her life, and at work. I do like hearing and knowing about those things, but I feel like I don't get to tell her about my life, and my job.

As far as Recreational companionship, she has really got out of her comfort zone, and done some of my hobbies with me, that she never has been willing to in the past 18 years, so that really means a lot to me.

Sexual fulfillment has never been better. She has been much more in tune to the importance of it, and how close it brings us, and I have felt so much more in tuned to her. I am very satisfied in this area.

Affection has been really good also. I really enjoy showing her affection, and in return, she has shown me a lot more then she used to. I do things for her that I used to never think of doing. I sometimes will do her nails, and give her awesome foot massages. I will brush her hair too, which I have found she really loves. She could sit there and let me do that for hours.

Anyways, we have come along way,and there is still a ton we could improve on, but I actually have hope again. There was some dark times when I felt like giving up, and felt complete hopelessness. It is nice to feel the sunshine again.

Dr. Harley recommends sitting down together and schedule your UA time. Could you do this together before the trip?

On the conversation side have you told her you'd like to tell her about your day and such?

Have you seen this? When Conversation becomes Boring or Unpleasant

So, my wife and I went on an overnight getaway, and had a great time. The whole time I felt so connected to her, and we made love three times from when we checked in, to checking out, and it was amazing. I actually felt more loved by her, than I ever remember feeling, in our 18 years of marriage. The reason I mention this, is because I totally blew it once we got home.

I mentioned to her about a month ago, that one of the things that hurt me the most, was the fact that she wrote him a letter towards the end of their relationship explaining to him that she loved her family so much, and could no longer continue to be friends with him. I told her that the reason this hurt me so much, is because she used to write me letters all of the time way back in the day, and for years she hasn�t written me even so much as a birthday or Christmas card. I was extremely hurt by the thought of her writing another man a letter, and it has caused me to wonder why she no longer writes me?

So, on our way home this weekend, from our getaway, I mentioned that I would love it if she would write me a letter for christmas. Well this turned into an argument, and I ended up saying that the reason she doesn�t write me anymore, is because she doesn�t love me like she used to, and the only reason she wrote him, is because she was in love with him(which she denies)

Anyways, it went from a wonderful weekend, to us fighting. Then in the process of fighting, she noticed that I was able to see all of her texts on my Ipad, and I told her that I do that because I don�t trust her.

BRAINHURTS: I read the article on good conversation, and I definitely blew it in a few areas this weekend. I do so good sometimes, and then out of nowhere, all of the feelings and emotions come flooding back, and I say things that i shouldn't. I just feel like I ruined the good progress we were making.

I am at a point now where I don't feel like I need anymore details or answers about the affair, so I need to avoid bringing it up at all cost. Does anyone have any tips on how to avoid bringing up the affair when your emotions get the best of you? It just feels like we take two steps forward, and one step back because of this.

Dr. Harley's materials are full of helpful suggestions for learning to manage your emotional reactions.

First, if this is a problem, go see your doctor about getting antidepressants prescribed for awhile. This will help even out your emotional highs and lows.

Second, train yourself to physically relax when you feel frustrated. Dr. Harley has a great article on how you can do this: How to Negotiate When You are an Emotional Person. There is even a device that you can purchase that you can use to train yourself to relax.

Finally, avoid frustrating situations - do not discuss the affair, or stay in a conversation that continues to discuss the affair. Avoid triggers as much as possible.

That is almost exactly how Dr. Harley suggests that an affair be ended. He would recommend a letter, written by the WS and read and approved and sent by the BS. No positive comments toward the affair partner, of course, and plenty of positive comments about the betrayed spouse.

You need to quit bringing up the affair. If you would like her to write you letters, then ask her to write you letters. Don't bring up the letter she wrote at the end of the affair, and don't ask her why she doesn't - just let her know that you would like. Talk about creating a happy present and happy future, not the past and the reasons for it.

When you feel frustrated, don't say or do anything until you have become relaxed and no longer feel frustrated.

Our recovery was greatly held back by my talking about the affair. I thought about the affair a lot and when I thought about it, I'd talk about it. When I talked about it, I got angry and disrespectful. We were in the Online Seminar at the time and I discussed this problem with our coach.

We came up with the solution to use the Conversation worksheet from the Five Steps workbook. I would track when I brought up the A by writing it down. Also, I asked my H to help me. He was to say, "Honey, let's not talk about the mistakes of the past. Let's stick to the program." I'd have to force myself to stop talking and we'd change the subject, the place, what we were doing, anything we had to do to stop talking about the affair.

I would tell myself I could avoid talking about it for the morning, then for the afternoon, then for the evening. After a while, my H never had to gently steer me away from talking about the ugly past. I had to learn to control my thoughts, too, by reminding myself constantly to look at the present and see how incredibly well we were doing today.

Besides, remind yourself that talking about the A never really does any good anyway. It simply brings the sorry and painful past into the present, destroying any recovery progress.

Thanks for the advice Markos, and LongWayFromHome. I agree, that it never does any good to bring up the affair. Whenever I do, it just makes me feel more resentment, and she gets really defensive and angry. I just need to get better at recognizing this in the moment that I need it most.

So, I need advice on how to handle certain conversations in the future. I commented to my wife about how much better things have been since OM no longer works there, and she said something about how she can�t control the future. She said �what if down the road he gets a job here again�? I said � I would not be okay with that, and I would do everything in my power to make sure that wouldn�t happen�. She then says � I can�t control what the company does�. I said well then you would have to find another job. I explained to her that I am not okay with her ever working with him again, and I don�t want her to ever see him again.

Bottom line, is she thinks I am being controlling. Then she mentioned that I need to be positive. I told her that I am being positive, but that I was just letting her know that I would not be okay with that. How do I explain better why this is such an important EP?

Here are a few texts today after our conversation:

(Me)
I have been really positive, and I am very happy about your work situation. I wasn't trying to upset you, and I am sorry that you view these Extraordinary Precautions, as being controlling, instead of viewing them as a way to protect our marriage and family. You can do what you want. You could even have him as your boss again, but at that point, I would have to take steps to protect myself. I love you, and I want our marriage to be wonderful.

(her)
I don't think this matters anymore....or is relavent.

(me)
I was just making it clear that if he came back, I would not be okay with that. I am not trying to be difficult, I was just making a point. It was relevant to our conversation. I love you.

(her)
K, but it won't happen.

(me)
K, so I guess we have nothing to worry about. My comment was only
hypothetically speaking...

Part of your recovery is to not bring up the affair again. It sounds like it has worked out that she no longer has any contact with the affair partner because of things you did and because of things she did.

If there is something either one of you are not doing to maintain the extraordinary precautions then that can be brought up without referring to the affair.

Or, if their is a need that either one of you are not meeting then that can be brought up without referring to the affair.

Every time the affair is brought up it withdraws love units from both accounts which is the opposite direction of where you want your marriage to go.

I don't really feel like we discussed the affair. We really have been doing good about not talking about the affair. This was just a trivial conversation on boundaries. She thinks the Extraordinary Precautions are to over the top. I just need to be able to better express to her why they are absolutely necessary.

A week or so ago, we had a conversation about snooping. She had noticed that I was looking at her phone, and she said "It makes me feel like you don't trust me". I explained to her that I hardly ever feel like I need to, but it shouldn't be a big deal if I look at things. Months ago, she agreed that we should be completely open with our phones and Ipad's. She then said that she thinks that it is wrong to snoop.

I emailed her Dr. Harley's article on snooping, and I was expecting her to put up some resistance to the concept, but later that day, she said "I read that article, and it makes sense". It made me feel good, that she actually took the time to take the article serious.

Does she know about MB? Is she onboard? Her comments above sounds like she doesn't get it yet.

Do you have the book SAA?

Has she committed to recovery?

BH, back in the summer, she was very defensive, and I couldn't bring up anything from MB. If I would try to share an article, she would instantly get mad and dismiss it as having no credibility. Over the last couple months, which just so happens to be how long OM has not been working there, she has been much more receptive, and she will actually engage in conversations about some of the ideas of MB.

I bought HNHN, and LB's, and I am hoping she will read them. Problem is that my wife in the 18 years we have been married has probably only read one or two books. She never reads. She is a busy body. We call her the energizer bunny, because she never can relax. She never watches tv, because she feels like she is wasting time. She is what you would call a clean freak, and our house is immaculate.

She is 100% committed to a full recovery, but I guess I haven't done a very good job at putting a recovery road map in front of her. I am still not versed enough to know exactly what we need to do. We have read lots of article from MB, and have had discussions on POJA, and building an affair proof marriage. We have had good conversations on love banks, and friends and enemies of good conversation.

One problem we run into on MB, is if there is ever any mention of affair, even in the context of building an affair proof marriage, she shuts down, and thinks it is me trying to rub her affair in her face, which has never been my intention. She will still sometimes say that she doesn't feel like she had an affair, because she knew that it would never have become physical, because she trusts herself.

She has mentioned in the past that I just don't want her to be herself. She is very outgoing and friendly by nature. In the MB101 thread, there is a post by "Mysacredmarriage", and my wife reminds me a lot of his wife. My wife just gets a long really good with guys, and she doesn't feel like she is crossing boundaries. It has been a huge battle this year trying to establish what is and isn't okay in interactions with the OS.

This worries me bc this reminds me very much of my WxH. He did not want to completely close the door to the OS. Why? Because he liked the attention. It was as simple as that. And so he gaslighted me for 3 years while we were in a false recovery.

There was another poster who was here for a few years and his wife just didn't seem to "get" it either. As it turns out, she was unsympathetic to the pain that she caused him and continued to make decisions without taking his feelings into account - she ended up breaking EPs and going back to work in close proximity to the OM against his wishes.

I would advise you to talk to Dr Harley about what you posted above. Don't gloss it over and see if he can give you some direction.

What has been done from this checklist?

From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.

These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.


Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.

Agree with SusieQ her actions don't sit right.

Get the book SAA.

What about contacting Dr Harley? Have you ever had her listen to MB radio? If she doesn't like to read she can listen to the show and then you can discuss it together.

SusieQ, This worries me also because that sounds very much like my wife. She still doesn't completely understand the dangers of OS friendships. She has agreed to not have any OS friends, but she has said a few times that she doesn't see it the same as me. She also really does enjoy attention from other men. She is very beautiful, and she will tell me all the time about guys that will basically follow her around the grocery store checking her out, and trying to make eye contact with her. This really worries me at times.



This is another thing that really worries me, because I have always felt like my wife was unsympathetic to the pain I have gone through. Even though we have gone through a lot to set up EP's, I still worry that she won't take them as serious as she should. The reason I worry about this, is because of conversations like we had yesterday about hypothetical situation of him working there again. She will just say things like "I can't control what this company does", Like I would just have to deal with it. I made it clear that I would never be okay with it.

BH, we have done everything on the checklist, but there are a couple that are not clear to her, and we have had a lot of conversations about. I will explain them individually.


The only answer I ever get from this one, is that she can't control every situation. She say's she is committed to never talking to him again, but she says "How do I guarantee that I will never see him again". It goes back to the what if conversations. What if we crossed paths with him by chance at anyplace? Sporting event? Disney land? Her point is she can't Guarantee that.



We never changed her phone number, but that is the only way that they ever communicated, and I have complete access to her phone, and I can see all texts and calls on our bill. I would notice in no time if he ever tried to text or call her. There has not been a single text or call to her phone since DDay 5th of May 2014...

Everything else on the list is clear to both of us, and has been done.

How close does he live to you? Dr. Harley often recommends moving. Is this an option?

Why won't she change her number?

Has she answered ALL your questions regarding the affair?

How much UA time are you getting?

Have you and her got away for a vacation?

It sounds like always you are getting a lot of good input and as BH said get SAA. If she hates reading books together then I would start with that book.

The other 2 books will help you rebuild love once the check list in SAA has been agreed on and implemented.

You need to let her know that your condition of continuing this marriage requires her implementing what is out lined in SAA. The reality is the success of you marriage depends on that being in place.

So First step Get SAA.
2nd Ask her to read with you.
3rd follow instruction in book to a T.

Moving is not an option, and the OM is from a state that is 2,500 hundred miles away, and for all we know, since he no longer works there, he could live anywhere. By moving we could actually end up moving closer to him. Bottom line is she is committed to never talking to him again. She is just funny in her comments towards committing to never see him again, because she has no control over that. She is only making the point that we could randomly run into him half way around the globe in Africa. The odds of getting struck by lightning are probably way more likely. The bottom line is, that she has committed to me, that in the event that for some reason she saw him from a distance or whatever, that she would immediately tell me, and basically run the other way. She says she absolutely would not approach him or say hi. So, I would actually say we are good on this part of the checklist, besides that �Crazy minded� Technicality.



We both agree (POJA), that changing her number would accomplish nothing. He never initiated any of the texting, and never called her phone even once. There is no way that he will randomly out of nowhere start texting her. The only reason this turned into what it did, was because they worked right with each other. EP�s have been put in place, and they have no reason to ever talk to each other again.



Yes, we have gone over the fine details many times, finally to the point where I was satisfied. This process took 5 months. Now I try my best to not bring it up for any reason.



We are getting plenty of UA time, and I have never felt closer to her. She is very much in love with me right now, and we love every second we spend together. We are having sex on average about 4 times per week, and that is not because of me being persistent. She really enjoys SF, and basically plans on being with me every other night. I don't have any complaints in this area, and this is one of my top EN's.

We got away on a little mini vacation a couple weeks ago, and it was great.

This is an area that I mentioned earlier, that we struggle with. If I ask her to read SAA, she will feel like it is me bringing it up, and rubbing it in her face. I have to be careful in my wording, and I refer to the affair as "Our Situation" Whenever I call it "Affair", she shuts down, and conversation goes nowhere. I have introduced all of the basic principles in SAA, one at a time, and I feel like we are doing pretty good at following. We are still pretty un educated in SAA, but we have learned so so much from these concepts.

Like I mentioned earlier, my Wife has opened up to MB quite a bit more the last couple months. She understands how important MB principles are to me, and she no longer dismisses the insights I get from this website. Things have greatly improved here. The only things we get hung up on, are the little technical things like I mentioned earlier.

What about MB radio? Will she listen to MB radio?

I will see if she will listen... I somehow need to get her past feeling like I am judging her, or rubbing it in if I mention anything about marriage trouble...

Example: tonight when I got home from work, we were hanging out talking, and I mentioned how a guy I work with was telling me today about how his wife left him for another man, and now he pays $700 a month in child support. Well she says she feels like I am trying to say "I told you so", or just trying to lecture her. I told her I didn't mean anything by it, and that it was just a conversation I had today.

I need to get her comfortable with feeling like it is not a bad thing to discuss marriage and relationships, and that by doing so, we can learn how to avoid future trouble. I think she just wants to avoid marital discussions all together right now. I have been very calm and loving whenever we have these talks. She is just overly sensitive to things right now.

Advice for my wife�s friend.

So, the other night my wife and I went to the movies, and ended up sitting next to a lady my wife used to work with, and they hadn�t seen each other in 8 years. So her friend tells my wife that her husband recently left her for a woman he met when they moved to the UK for work(she was his office assistant). She told my wife that they moved back to the states to try and fix their marriage, but he has since decided to go back to OW. She is devastated, and completely clueless on what to do. She was bawling during the movie, and my wife felt really bad for her. They exchanged numbers before we left.

Anyways, on the way home I told my wife she should tell her friend to post her story on the MB Forum. My wife is nervous about doing this. She feels like it isn�t her place to.

Should I continue to encourage her to contact her and give her some advice, or should I just forget about it, and consider it none of my business?

I would. Maybe your wife would feel better about sending her link to the website?

Wow!!! I can't believe it's been 5 years since this happened. I thought I would give a quick update to anyone that maybe remembers this story. Things between my wife and I are great! It is true that it takes 3 to 5 years to get over an affair. When I first came here I thought that was ridiculous, but it is very true. I can honestly say now that I am completely over the affair. I don't get triggered at all anymore, and if fact I can talk about things and view things that used to instantly trigger me. I don't feel scared and insecure anymore. I completely trust my wife again, and never even worry about if she is hiding things. I occasionally will check her phone and instantly realize that I have nothing to worry about. My life has changed so much in the last 5 years. I am a much stronger person. Life is very good!
A couple years ago I started running to help myself cope with the pain, and it has truly been a blessing. I now run 6 days a week, and have run 5 marathons. Running helped me heal and work through a lot of the mental struggles I was going through. I am down 60+ pounds, and healthier than I have even been. My wife is going to run a half marathon with me this spring.

Great news! Thanks for the update!