Hi,
I was just ready to leave my husband when a friend told me about this website.
I have read the Basic Concepts and now have LoveBusters and His Needs Her needs on order.
After reading some of the Q&A's, I am not sure if I should be doing a Plan A?
I was going to leave because of my husband's constant demands for sex.
Not sure how to proceed other than continue reading here until the books arrive.
Any help or advice would be appreciated.

Thanks

Welcome to Marriage Builders, RC.

Can you tell us a little more about your marriage? How long have you been married? Any kids? Do you both work?

I'm going to guess that by 'constant' you mean he would like to have sex more frequently than you do.

Have you discussed frequency with him? Can the two of you arrive at a schedule that is agreeable to both of you?

Do you desire your husband sexually?

MaritalBliss-thank you for your response and your welcome.

My husband and I are both 40 and have been married for 18 years.
We have 7 children aged 10 months to 15 years of age.
My husband takes care of the children and I work 50-60 hours a week.

My husband has a very high need for sex and I have no need for it at all. We have discussed it many times but have not been able to reach an acceptable agreement. Sex has been an issue with us from the start. My husband is an excellent Father and does a wonderful job caring for the children. Our relationship is good-we are good partners and parents, but struggle with the lack of sex/intimacy.

No, I do not desire my husband sexually.

I have only just discovered this website, so have not implemented any of the MarriageBuilders skills or techniques.

I am still trying to decide on the best thing to do next. So, just reading more on the website for now - and then the books when they arrive.

Thanks

Oh, sweetie, you're probably exhausted! Seven kids in 15 years?? There's been very little time for the two of you. I have a couple of friends who might be able to help - I'm going to flag them and get them over to your thread.

Hang on and don't make any decisions right now.

Hi, Raging,

Maritalbliss is probably right in identifying a lack of time together as your main problem. In addition, you and your husband shouldn't be making demands of each other at the other's expense.

According to Dr. Harley, wives need two things in order to feel enthusiastic about sex: an emotional connection, and the prospect of enjoyment. You can get all that by working this program together! And the most important ingredient is time: time spent alone (no children with you who are awake), giving each other your undivided attention (no distractions like television and electronic devices), meeting each other's intimate emotional needs (intimate conversation, recreational companionship, affection, and sexual fulfillment).

According to Dr. Harley, a good marriage needs to spend at least fifteen quality hours a week together doing these things. Marriages in trouble need to spend more time together in order to rebuild: twenty-five to thirty hours a week.

Dr. Harley calls this principle the "Policy of Undivided Attention." If the two of you follow it together for awhile, you will probably find your feelings about leaving changing, as well as your feelings about sex. I can personally testify that my wife's feelings about sex change completely based on whether or not she is feeling an emotional connection to me, an emotional connection that I can generate simply by following these "rules."

In days past, Dr. Harley was able to help husbands and wives adjust to each other and have a fulfilling relationship by telling them to have about four dates a week, spending three hours in affection and intimate conversation, followed by love making.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8120_sex.html

Here are some links I think might be essential reading for you, Raging:

How Dr. Harley learned to save marriages
How can a husband receive the sex he needs in marriage?
How to create your own plan to resolve marital conflicts and restore love to your marriage
Romantic love: is it a realistic goal for marriage therapy?

Hello RC, and welcome to Marriage Builders

The sexual intimacy is not an unusual problem, and Marriage Builders can help the two of you become compatible. One of the big contributing factors is that you're probably not in love with each other, which will almost always diminish a woman's desire for sex.

A couple of articles that you may find helpful:

What to do when you are not meeting your spouse's need for sex? Letter 2
Meeting the need for Sexual Fulfillment

If you've read the basic concepts, then you've heard about Undivided Attention (UA).

Dr. Harley recommends a minimum of 15 hours together (20-30 hours for hurting marriages) concentrating on meeting the four intimate Emotional Needs (EN): Conversation, Affection, Sexual Fulfillment, and Recreational Companionship. This will be essential for your marriage's recovery and health.

How much time alone together are you getting each week?
How is it spent?
What lovebusters does your husband commit?
What lovebusters are you guilty of?

What to do when you're not meeting your spouse's need for sex? [b]Letter 1[/b](Not the same article I linked to before)

Marcos & Prisca - Thank you so much for your encouraging responses, and also the links. I have been reading all over this site since I found it.

To amswer your questions Prisca:

We currently do not spend any time alone together. I am at work until 6.30 or 7.00pm each day, then when I get home I am caring for the children and doing housework until we all go to bed. The babies & toddler sleep with us to make it easier (more rest for me) for nursing.

His LoveBuster - Selfish Demands (for sex)
My LoveBusters - Disrespectful Judgements (responding to demand for sex) and Independent Behavior (Bossy, do my own thing type of person). Plus whatever it is when I am not meeting his main need.

I am still trying to decide what to do. This program sounds like a good plan, but I am afraid I will never be able to meet his need for sex.

However, I fell I must let him know that I am at the point of leaving the marriage.

I was thinking of an e-mail letting him know how I feel and provide links to Basic Concepts and this thread so he can read and decide for himself if he thinks it is worth a try.

I was thinking 6 months would be long enough to try-if there is no improvement by then, we call it a day.

Thoughts?

Thanks

How far apart are you on meeting that need for him? It is a matter of differing views on frequency? And how exactly is he making "selfish demands" when it comes to sex? What does he do? Because it is not a lovebuster to ask that your needs be met in marriage UNLESS it is done in a disrespectful way.

Can you be more specific?

RC, this is the core of your problem right here. Your marriage has been so neglected that you have fallen out of love. This is why you don't want to have sex with him. In order for a woman to desire sex, she needs 2 things: an emotional attachment and the prospect of enjoyment.

Did you read the excellent links from Markos and Prisca?

If you will make your marriage a priority, your feelings about sex will change.

Melody Lane, Thank you for your thoughtful responses.

I am still very much learning all this-it is a lot to take in. I defined my husband's constant request for sex as LoveBusters based on what I read and how I fell about those requests. I see from your comment that in fact he is not LoveBusting me. He is always respectful, but it just bugs me that he does it and I feel stressed and pressured as a result.

Yes, I have read the links that Marcos & Prisca provided and I see that I will need to make a lot of changes.

Frequency is the main issue and we are very far apart-he would like sex at least daily, I would like it not at all or once a month at the most. We have tried to negotiate this to no avail.

Anyway, I sent my husband an e-mail with the links so I will wait now and see if he is willing/interested in this program.

Thanks

RC, if you can both use this program to effect a change in your feelings of romantic love for each other, you will experience a major difference in how you view sex with him. Women who are in love with their husbands do desire sex. It is very hard to have a bad marriage and this is one of the reasons why. You are experiencing one of the top reasons. You feel pressure and annoyance when he simply politely asks you to meet a basic need in marriage. The solution is not to demand that he stop expecting that need to be met, but to fix your marriage so you DO feel like it. [maybe not every day, of course!]

We can help you with that, if you are willing to take the necessary steps.

Ok, so now my husband is furious with me as a result of the e-mail I sent him. (where I told him I was going to leave the marriage, but then was referred to this website).I think he did follow the links to this website though (I looked at his history). Anyway, waiting for him to be open to a discussion of this program.

The books should be coming Wednesday or Thursday.

Melody Lane-I have a question on your last response.
When you mentioned "taking the necessary steps" are you referring to MarriageBuilders in general or to something more specific?

Thanks

Quote

I was going to leave because of my husband's constant demands for sex.

Is it a constant demand for sex, or is it that he continues to ask because he ain't getting it? It would be one thing if you were having sex everyday and he continues to ask - that would be a demand. It's quite another when you simply don't want to have sex and so look at any request as undesirable behavior. Asking for more food when you've eaten and should be full is gluttony, asking for food everyday when you haven't eaten for days and are starving is trying to survive.

Quote

When you mentioned "taking the necessary steps" are you referring to MarriageBuilders in general or to something more specific?

Perhaps waiting for you to be open to a discussion of this program.

I am referring to MB in general.

Americajin-thanks for your response.
You are correct-my husband's constant requests for sex were just that-respectful requests. So they were not demands or LoveBusters. That was my mistake in my original description/definition of the problem.

I am very open to any discussion or thoughts on how to approach the program. I did want to wait for my husband to read up on it before we both made a commitment to do the program.

MelodyLane-thanks for clarifying.

Thanks

RC, another great resource is the MB radio show. On it, dr Harley and his wife explain the program and answer questions. That might help you both tremendously. Men really like Dr Harley, especially, because he is very logical and action oriented.

His legitimate need for sex is NOT a love buster. It may be a love buster how he asks, but the need is not.

What you have to do is to provide the feedback he needs in order to make a request that he has some reasonable assurance it will be granted.

In other words, what have you NEGOTIATED in order to ensure that you both are mutually enthusiastic about the sex question?

You don't say how he demands sex. So let's assume you are correct and he's making demands. What have you told him regarding how he can make a request that has a good chance of being treated as a legitimate and valid request and not viewed by you as a demand?

What is it about how he asks that causes you to judge it as a demand?

Would he agree that he's demanding? Or would he claim that he's "starving" in the sexual arena and he's simply begging for a morsel?

In other words, what makes your perspective any more valid than his?

This is why you use the POJA. You avoid making the judgments about one another. You negotiate to reach a solution that both you and your husband are enthusiastic about implementing.

So have you told him what would make you enthusiastic about coming closer to his desire for sex? What are you doing to meet his legitimate need here?

Have you told him he desires too much sex? If so, you are LB'ing him.

You are here, so the tough questions are presented to you.

Enlightened Ex- Sorry I thought I had clarified in my post above. I made an error in my original posts describing my husband's constant requests for sex as demands and LoveBusters. He is always respectful.
There is nothing I have done to negotiate or give feedback with him over this since I do not want sex at all.

I also said in my response to Prisca's questions about LoveBusters that I was LoveBusting him in my response to his requests. So I fully acknowledge that.
There is nothing that I could tell him that would make me enthusiastic about sex.
The other posters on this thread have advised me to do the program and stressed the importance of UA time.


I have only recently found this site so have not done anything to improve UA time or POJA any issues at this point. I am waiting to hear back from my husband after sending him the links to this site.

Thansk for your response and I hope I answered all your questions.

Thanks

Part of the program is being radically honest.

Part of the program is to meet your spouses greatest emotional needs. So if he's being respectful in his requests, then it's up to you to figure out what would make you enthusiastic about sex.

That may mean trying some things, agreeing to certain behaviors to see if that helps.

Have you both done the questionnaires? There is an emotional needs questionnaire and a Love Busters questionnaire.

What are your top emotional needs? How is your husband doing on meeting those needs? What feedback or coaching can you give him so he can better meet your needs?

Ditto for his, what are his needs? What coaching or feedback do you need to ensure you are meeting his needs? This is all part of the program.

If there is nothing you could tell him that would make you enthusiastic about sex, then you are not ready for the program. That's essentially saying I refuse to meet your need. I'm not going to tell you what you have to do so I'm enthusiastic about it, so you have to do without. That is the net effect of not having a means to make this something about which you are enthusiastic.

You don't need to wait for your husband in order to work the program. Even if he doesn't want to do it, you can still work the program.

After all, what better way to convince him the program is worthwhile than to show how this program leads to him getting his top emotional needs met?

If you cannot tell him that he will get his need for sex met in the program, then why would he start something that will come across as let's use this program to fix my husband?

I predict that until there is some assurance that he'll get his needs met and this is not a fix my husband program, that he'll be unenthusiastic about it.

The best way to present the program is by providing him with first hand experience how using the program will result in him getting his needs met.

If you cannot say what that path is to him getting his needs met, then I doubt he'll enthusiastically sign up.

What that means is you may need to do the program alone, meeting his needs, eliminating your love busters, finding out how he would answer the questionnaires without presenting them as a program.

Then, when the marriage seems good to him, you may explain that it's because you've adopted these strategies and if he would like more of the same, then you invite him to adopt them as well so you too can benefit from a great marriage, full of romantic love.

But if there is no hope offered, especially tangible hope, then I doubt he'd engage in the program after having his needs go unmet for so long.

After all, there is no reason why UA time has to preclude meeting his needs. In fact, meeting your spouses needs is part of UA time. An hour a day of lovemaking would get you nearly half way to the maintenance requirement of UA. Not enough to rebuild, but it does get you to almost half of the minimum requirement.

Enlightened Ex - Thank you for your input, I do appreciate it.
To answer your questions:
No, we have not done any of the questionnaires yet.

My top needs from my reading so far are conversation and affection. My husband does a good job of meeting these needs except for the fact that I always feel that the affection is a prelude to sex and this makes me uncomfortable and stressed.

My husband's top needs (educated guess) would be sex and affection. I do not meet his needs at this time.

I think I do need to wait for him to read up and decide if he wants to do the program since he is very angry with me right now. Pushing forward with anything at this point will not be helpful.

As far as fixing him-I thought this was about fixing the marriage? I am the spouse that was going to leave, not him.
I think there is a good chance he will like this program, for the reason that MelodyLane stated-it is very logical-that will appeal to him. I need to wait for his response though.

I am a little confused-some other posters on this thread (Marcos, Prisca & MelodyLane) had suggested that working on the UA time to create Romantic Love would help me fall in love with my husband again and therefore would want to have sex with him.
You are suggesting I have sex with himm before that time? (I think?)I can't do that-that is the problem we are having-I cannot just have sex with him.
I apologize if I have misunderstood you or your suggestions.

Thanks

I don't share ML's assessment that he'll like the program if your presentation is that you give him some links and say read this.

It will likely come across as you are trying to fix him. I may be wrong, but hear me out.

His complaint is that he's not having sex. In fact, according to your account, he's asking in a respectful fashion and you admit you are not meeting his needs.

From that picture, painted by you, what is it he needs to fix? I'm not saying he doesn't, I'm saying from that picture you paint, what is it he needs to fix?

From his perspective, and this is speculation, so I reserve the right to be wrong, the problem is you don't want to have sex with him. Not only that, but you can't even tell him what it is that will make you want to have sex with him.

So now you are going to say, what do you think of this program. His first question, even if it doesn't come out of his mouth is how is this going to lead to sex?

If you cannot demonstrate how this will lead to sex in a fashion that convinces him that it will lead to sexual fulfillment in a manner he finds meets his needs, he will not be very enthusiastic about this program.

It's possible he may go along with it, but if he doesn't see sufficient progress in getting his needs met, it's unlikely he'll go very far in the program.

I'm not saying the program is bad. I'm cautioning that you need to be 100% clear that this is not about fixing him and it's about making the marriage better for him. It's about making it better for you too. However, since you say he's angry, and I'd say rightfully so since his needs are going unmet, he probably does not have the love bank balance to really care if your needs are met.

That's human nature. His emotional needs have gone unmet and it's going to be a hard sell if you open with how he has failed in meeting your needs.

You may need to go first. You may need to address your overdrawn love bank before you are in the position where he'll consider his withdrawals from the love bank as well.

I could be wrong. He may jump on board. In fact, I hope I am wrong. I simply want to caution you that you need to tread carefully as if your approach is not good, it will come across as you are trying to fix your husband.

And that will make it infinitely harder for him to want to do the program.

Enlightened Ex - I did just want to clarify that MelodyLane gave me the information about UA time being key to us both having Romantic Love for each other and that many men like Dr Harley's logical approach. That is all.

As for the rest - I don't know what to say. You may be right, I don't know. Thank you for your perspective.

My husband is angry because I just shared with him that I was going to leave the marriage, not because I am not meeting his needs.

I cannot "go first" as you suggest, because I cannot have sex with him. I cannot face the thought of sex every day-or even every week.

Thanks

**edit**

**edit**

A warning to posters to help this poster with Marriage Builders concepts or refrain from posting. Do not disrupt this thread again!

**edit**

Of course she doesn't. She's not in love with him.

Of course she can't. A lot of women do not understand why they do not want to have sex with their husbands.

EE, did you even read the links that were given to her? They spell out very nicely how this program will help her husband get the sex he desires.

Raging .. Welcome to MB. Sorry you are here, however this is the best place for support in situations like this.

From what I understand .. your issues are related around sex and how you feel pressured to perform as often as your hubby wants.

I just wanted to let you know that my wife had said the same things to me that you say to your hubby. Just let this be known as a hubby whos wife said similar things .. the rejection hurts.

Many times I would have an angry outburst about my needs left unmet and this would feed my wifes aversion to sex with me. She desired sex .. JUST NOT WITH ME. She was unknowingly having an EA of sorts and this was causing a contrast effect that was working against me and my AOs and DJ's would push her further away and fuel her aversion of me.

Anyhow .. what I ended up seeing with MB was that I was infact meeting my wifes needs and making deposits but i was also withdrawing deposits from her love bank with my actions and responses to her not meeting my needs FASTER than i was depositing. So to correct this I did a STELLAR PLAN A. I met my wifes needs and dated her again without expecting my needs to be met and we began to spend time together reading the books after the kids went to bed outloud to eachother. This brought us close again and my wife began to feel safe and unpressured. It took a while (My taker would try and work its way out of me and occasionaly succeed and ruin my efforts and we would have a fight again and be back at day one) .. but it eventually worked .. especially after my wife seen MY changes and me being consistant and NOT love busting, then it finally kicked in, in her mind, that MB was actually working.

If you have an aversion to sex .. it can be fixed. But it will require some tender patience and love from your spouse and some positive encouragement from you that your feelings are coming back. But according to POJA .. you are not to force yourself into sex with your hubby other wise your aversion will get worse. However the subject should be discussed and a mutually agreeable solution should be found through safe negotiation.

Have you read the articles on sexual aversions?

Keep Posting! Marriage Builders can help you and your hubby! Maybe even get your hubby to start a thread so we can guide him how to better make love bank deposits for you! Both of you gotta clean up your own side of the street so to speak.

MNG

Edit to add this quote


And for this reason -- ^ your hubby should make a thread so we can help him too.

Your husband may be good at giving you the quality conversation and affection that you desire, but you are getting NOWHERE NEAR ENOUGH.

The UA time is really the key to being in love -- without those minimum hours alone together, it doesn't matter HOW good a conversationalist he is, or how good he is at affection.

You need TIME.

And if he really is good at these things, it won't take long before you start to feel head over heels for him. You've got to start spending the the TIME together. Once you have a full love bank, your desire for sex will follow.

When your husband calms down, invite him to create his own account here. There are many posters, including some men who've been in similar situations and not getting the SF they desire (Markos!), who can help him learn what to do to improve the situation. Melodylane is right -- men tend to love this program, because it is a very logically laid out plan of action.

QUoted for TRUTH! My wife and I were exact opposites .. i wanted it 10 times a day .. she wanted it 10 times a year. MB over time and following the principles here helped balance that out. My wife grew to love me more as i did my side of MB her aversion to me lifted when i was able to focus on loving her as she needed to be loved .. and as this aversion lifted my need for sex went from 10 times a day to 10 times a month. My wifes desire has increased as I love bust less .. and make deposits more. I hardly even have to ask .. it just happens! ALmost like the roles are reversing now that I dont feel so starved anymore lol ..

edit to add. I guess a few good questions are does she WANT to have a loving and mutually fulfilling marriage with her hubby and does she WANT to have romantic feelings for her hubby even tho she doesnt currently have them?

I understand the feeling that the affection feels like it's just a prelude to sex. If you haven't made love for a while, you're in a negative feedback loop where he's desiring it strongly and you feel that's all he wants. This loop has to be broken somehow.�

Do you know why you don't want to make love or why you aren't sexually attracted to your husband? If you can figure this out, you'll have something you can tell him (respectfully) that he can work on to help you gain that attraction.�

In your opening post you asked if you should do a Plan A. If you do, that would include meeting his top needs, and from what you've said, he's let you know that sexual fulfillment would deposit many love units. So, to do a Plan A, SF would be included. Try to honestly answer for yourself why you aren't willing.

However, you could also consider meeting his need in order to get things rolling. The UA time is explicitly for meeting these needs: recreational companionship (go out and do something both of you enjoy and have a little fun), intimate conversation (like talk about how you're enjoying what you're doing), affection (like hold hands while you're out), and sexual fulfillment (with all the stages).�

If you plan a date like this, and then more after that, you could both have the kind of marriage you want. Would you be willing to meet his need if you had a 3 or 4 hour fun date right before SF?

I'm with Enlightened_Ex, I thought I was helping per MB principles.

From what she's telling us, she should be madly in love with her H, and he should be the one ready to leave all per MB principles (I guess I missed the UA time).

I may have been harsh about it, but I was just looking to find out the rest of the story.

No, from what she's telling us, she has absolutely no reason whatsoever to feel in love with her husband.

They are spending ZERO UA time together. Without the UA, there is no hope for romantic love. Without a romantic relationship, she will not feel like sex with her husband.

This is not an unusual problem.

And, as Dr. Harley said in the quote above, the answer is NOT more sex. He recommends fixing the relationship first, and the sexual problems will typically fix themselves.

RC, your UA time is the key as Prisca suggested. You won't be in love no matter how well he meets your needs if you are not spending enough UA time together. Just ask yourself if you could be in love with someone with whom you spent 30 minutes of UA time per week? It is impossible.

The problem is that you have tried in the past to meet this need when you DID not have feelings and have created a SEXUAL AVERSION. It is so bad now that you want to get divorced. But this can be turned around if both you and your H get on board and follow this program.

I want to tell your husband that we can help him get the sex he wants in his marriage. And we can help you grow to be enthusiastic about it, RC. Men want an ENTHUSIASTIC partner, not a reluctant partner with a gun to her head. That is what we can help you achieve.

I would ask your husband to read this article and PLEASE assure him that we are on his side. We are on both your sides and will help you both get what you want and need in this marriage.

How to Overcome Sexual Aversion

The question of the ages: How can a husband receive the sex he needs in marriage?

From what she has told us, she can't possibly in love with him. And the proof is in the pudding. If she were in love, she would WANT to have sex with him.

Women need 2 things to desire sex: an emotional attachment and the prospect of enjoyment. She can't possibly have an emotional attachment if she spends no UA time with him. She doesn't want to have sex with him because she is not in love. The solution is for her to fall BACK in love.

Amen Mel ... how come it looks better when you type it? :P

I love that guy~!

I don't want to take this off topic, but I guess I should apologize for reading quickly and not fully seeing the situation. Prisca, MelodyLane, and all other on this thread I'm truly sorry that I missed the part were she said they had 0 UA time. I freely admitted this in the text that both of you quoted, and this was the key that I was looking for in my first post that got deleted. I agree that without this she will not want sex and will not be in love with him.

Quote

My husband takes care of the children and I work 50-60 hours a week.

Since no one else asked, I thought I should � why does your husband stay home with the kids?

Quote

My husband is an excellent Father and does a wonderful job caring for the children. Our relationship is good-we are good partners and parents, but struggle with the lack of sex/intimacy. No, I do not desire my husband sexually.

Since no one else asked, I thought I should � if your relationship is good, then why don�t you desire your husband and why would you want to divorce him? Divorce because he asks for sex?

Is it that you don�t want to have sex with your husband or you just don�t want to have sex � period? Has the fact that you work so many hours while your husband is at home caused you to lose respect for him as a man? Is this the root cause of why you don�t want to have sex with him?

Prisca & MelodyLane � Thank you so much for support & reaffirming the UA/wanting to have sex thing that has me stuck. Also for the encouragement and the link to the Sexual Aversion article. The letter and the SA article were written just for me, I think! This program is so thorough, it seems to cover everything. Thank you as well for your comment reassuring my husband. I will ask if he would like to post here. I have sent him the link so he can read this thread.


MrNiceGuy � Thank you for your welcome and for sharing your story. What you described, I believe is exactly the negative loop we find ourselves in. Thanks also for the reminder that my sexual rejection is painful for my husband. I know that it may seem obvious, but with our very busy lives it has been very easy for me to overlook the obvious.


LifetimeLearner � Thank you for your response. My apologies, I was confused about Plan A when I started this thread. I cannot, in fact do Plan A as I cannot meet his needs for sex at this time. I also would not want to have sex with him after a 3 or 4 hour date. I believe after all the reading on this site and the advice from MelodyLane & Prisca that my reluctance is due to lack of UA time (and therefore Romantic Love).


American Jin � To answer your questions:

I work and my husband is at home because I am the one with the high-paying job, so it just makes sense.

Yes, I was going to leave because I couldn�t take the pressure & stress from the constant requests for sex. My husband is also incredulous that I would do this. I don�t know what to tell you other than that is how I feel.

I did say our relationship was good-I meant overall as in good parents and we don�t fight. Our relationship is not intimate or fulfilling for either of us-it feels distant & disconnected. Sorry for the confusion with my wording.

I don�t want to have sex with my husband and I certainly do not want to have sex with anyone else.

I have great respect for a man (or woman) who is at home nurturing 2 teenagers, 2 rambunctious little boys, twin infants and a deaf toddler. So no respect issues there.

Hope I answered every-one�s questions.

Thanks

I believe I have made a great error in judgment though. I assumed he felt as disengaged and disconnected as I do. I realize now he does not. I believe he still loves me and I hurt him very badly when I told him in the e-mail I was going to leave. Not sure how to fix this mess now. Keep plugging for MarriageBuilders I guess.


H is still very upset with me and cool enough in his manner towards me that the children noticed. I don�t like this at all as he is never like this with me (or anyone else).

The whole situation is stressful & overwhelming right now.

So-my plan for today:

At lunch shop for �journal for the Sexual Aversion exercises
outfit for when H takes me on a date (positive thinking here)

Print out EN & LB questionnaires

Fill out mine tonight

Try to engage H tonight in discussion about MarriageBuilders

Do the first Sexual Aversion exercise

Those are a great start Raging! I am glad you related well with several of the links that were posted to you! MB is an amzing tool.

I believe over time with love and patience you will turn this around. Keep love busters in check... and learn each other all over again. IF both of you work the program and get in your UA time, within a few weeks you will notice a HUGE difference.

Keep posting ... venting ... and asking questions.

MNG

Thanks MrNiceGuy!

I have a question for you.
Did your wife do the Sexual Aversion exercises?
If so how long did it take her to get through all of them?
The final exercises seem scary and overwhelming to me!

Thanks

I'm not MrNiceGuy, but I'll mention that my wife has never had to do sexual aversion exercises. All she needed was a restoration of our romantic relationship. If we had restored the relationship, and she found herself in love, and she still felt averse to sex, then I think we would've needed to try that.

Thanks Marcus-that is a good point. I assumed after I read the Sexual Aversion article I would need to do the exercises as the article really rang true for me. Plus right now, I am so stressed/antsy - I need something I can actualy do (until H gets on board).

Thanks

RC, has your husband calmed down? Will he come here and let us help him?

I agree with Markos' point and want to add that I think it will take more to recover your marriage because you are at the point where you want a divorce. Restoring the love in your marriage is part of it, but you need the added help of Dr Harley's suggestions in that article. This CAN be turned around.

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I believe I have made a great error in judgment though. I assumed he felt as disengaged and disconnected as I do. I realize now he does not. I believe he still loves me and I hurt him very badly when I told him in the e-mail I was going to leave. Not sure how to fix this mess now. Keep plugging for MarriageBuilders I guess.

Raging_calm, do you really understand what sex means to a man? It's not a facetious question, because I've known a lot of women that have no clue at all about what men feel about sex. You'll hear a lot about how women need to be emotionally involved, that their emotional needs must be met first in order to have sex. If a woman's emotional needs are being met, she can often experience love quite well without having sex, men cannot.

For men, sex is one stop shopping. Sex is several emotional needs all wrapped up in one happy package. Men get the emotional connection FROM sex, not as a prelude to it. By having sex with her husband a woman is saying through her actions that she loves and accepts him. If you continually reject a man, then what you are saying in essence is that I don't love and accept you as a man and as my partner. You may think that by vocalizing these things that he accepts that you do love him, and you'd be wrong. I know that women find it incredulous when they're told that a man equates sex with love, I mean how stupid is that?!! Because for women love is separate from sex.

Funny that it is often women who say that it is the other way around, that it is men who separate love from sex. Not true. The difference is if the man is in a committed relationship or not. Men who are not in a committed relationship can have sex because it is fun and it feels great, although, yes, there is that elemnt of acceptance. Only the truly promiscuous have sex with people just for the sex act itself. Most men don't want to have sex with a promiscuous woman because they know they don't mean anything to her, there's no acceptance, no feeling. You're basically a flesh and blood dildo with a life support system attached. Strange words from a guy, right?

But women can be in a committed relationship and not really need to have sex at all. I'll bet that you have felt that you would have a great marriage, bordering on ideal, if your husband would just stop this annoying insistence on having sex. Everything is perfect, you have kids, you help each other out as partners, you talk and share times (although not anywhere enough) together, why can't he just be happy with his family and a wife who loves him? Why can't he SEE THAT WE ALREADY HAVE ENOUGH KIDS AND I'M TIRED AND I DON'T WANT TO HAVE SEX ANYMORE, JUST LEAVE ME ALONE!

Now see it from his perspective.

I have a wife who makes more money than I could so she works and I stay home. I'm ok with that as long as I feel that she still respects me as a man and loves me. So I do what I can in the house and with the kids, I feel strange in this position but i want to be a team player and if she's ok with the arangement than I can suck it up and deal with it too.

I try to have as much conversation with my wife because I now understand what housewives feel about having no adult conversation all day long. I try to be a good husband and father, and I guess she thinks that I am. She doesn't lord it over me that I don't work, but sometimes I get that look like why couldn't I be with a man that makes more so I could stay at home, the way it should be. So I try to get reinforcement that my wife still has it for me by initiating romance.

But she ain't having it, cause she's tired and just wants me to leave her alone. I know she's tired but so am I, probably both of us feel a lot better afterward, but the answer's no.
Just like it was the day before and the week before that. What am I doing wrong? I know, I'll try harder to do a better job in the house, talk to her more, and maybe give my world famous back rub, see what happens. Damn, still no. So maybe if I back off for a while, stop asking, let things cool off so she feels I'm not pressuring her. Nope, she looks happier because I ain't asking, but I get the feeling it could be decades if she ever wants to touch me again. She tells me that when I touch her that it only means I want sex, that's why she doesn't want to touch me at all. I can't help it if I get hard, after weeks without sex I get hard if the wind blows. Once a month, if I'm lucky, and then it's a big sacrifice on her part and she let's me know that, like giving the dog a bone. I'm tired of masturbating, even if they do call it sex with someone who you know loves you.

What else can I do? Maybe it's not a lack of trying on my part, maybe she just doesn't love me the same anymore. Holy cow, she wants to divorce me because I want to have sex? That she feels pressured? WTF does she think I feel?!! I should be the one considering divorce, I've put up with this for this long because I love her and my kids and don't want to lose them and she wants to dump me? Well, screw this, why even bother trying anymore? My feelings don't seem to count much, well I can play that game too.

And it's all downhill from there

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outfit for when H takes me on a date (positive thinking here)

raging_calm, at the present time, do you really think your husband wants to go on a date with you? You just sent him a letter telling him you were leaving him because you were tired of him asking for sex. And you're stressed because he's not taking it all that well. Well, duh....

You want to reach out to your husband? Stay tuned for the next episode.

MelodyLane-thanks, yes I agree I do need to do the Sexual Aversion exercises. I plan on doing the first of them tonight.
No, my husband has not calmed down yet-he is still very upset with me. I am hoping by tonight he will have come around some so that we can engae in some discussion about this program.

Thanks

americajin,



It certainly sounds like she's willing to meet her husband's emotional need for sexual fulfillment, at least under appropriate conditions.

I don't think there's any need to try to educate her about how important it is. I've not seen a single post suggesting that she does not believe that sexual fulfillment is important.

Dr. Harley recommends trying the simplest solutions first.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=68

This is a good question. It can be very helpful to get him on board here.

Mr Husband of Raging_Calm,

Howdy, sorry you have to be here. Bet you feel really bewidered and probably really pissed off right now. But that's ok. You and your wife can fix this, in fact it's already started.

Somehow in the years you've been married your wife has come to associate having sex/making love with you with unpleasantness. Which is being reinforced every time you approach her for sex. Don't know why and probably would have a hard time understanding it anyway as I am a guy. You can sit there and wonder why and get absolutely nowhere, just know that it happened and it was serious enough for her to consider leaving you. Which just flabbergasted you, yes?

Good news is she's willing to do something about it. She's done some reading here, actually just scratched the surface, but she's willing to try some things to maybe change the way she's thought about intimacy with you. The key thing is she's willing to try.

As a guy I know what you're feeling. But you do love her, yes, and you don't want that to change. So if you can back off from asking for sex until she's had time to work through some things, and then work with her, perhaps having to do some things that you'll probably be really skeptical of, maybe you both come out winners in the end. Can't get much worse than it is now, right? Have some faith and trust in this program, Mr Husband, even if it sounds counterintuitive at first, cause it works.

If you do decide to post here, stay off your wife's thread and she'll stay off of yours. You're going to have some back and forth that may be painful but you can't make an omelet without cracking some eggs, right? Can't remake your marriage unless you break out of the cage you've both put yourselves in. We'll help you out, but it would probably be better if you just go directly to contacting the Harley's.

Best of luck to the both of you.

Stick it out. The price is well worth it.

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It certainly sounds like she's willing to meet her husband's emotional need for sexual fulfillment, at least under appropriate conditions.

I don't think there's any need to try to educate her about how important it is. I've not seen a single post suggesting that she does not believe that sexual fulfillment is important.

I don't know, Markos, are we reading the same thread? She just sent her husband a letter saying she was leaving because he wants to have sex and won't stop asking. I don't know if she has a sexual aversion or not, there ARE people who just feel that sex is not important to them and don't miss it if they don't have it. Just like there ARE women who come here and are surprised to find that sex IS an emotional need, just like I scoffed at financial support being an emotional need when I first came to this site. Until I actually looked at it from a woman's perspective and saw that it made sense.

But sexual aversion or not is not my call as I am not a licensed professional.

And as far as wanting to meet her husband's emotional need, she really hasn't said that, has she? I guess we'll just have to wait and see and encourage her to follow the program.

Apparently we are not reading the same thread, no. My understanding was she sent him a letter explaining what he can do to get her interested in having sex with him.

Yes, she certainly has expressed a willingness to make changes in her marriage that will make her willing to meet her husband's need for sex. She certainly sounds like she's planning to follow the program, to me.

All of that was handled on this thread quite a bit earlier, wasn't it?

americajin - thank you for your long and thoughtful post. Some of it was hard to read.
However, you are right. I don't get it. I don't have a clue. When it comes to sex and what it means to a man. Thank you for educating me. I am reading as much as I cam from this site, but as you say, I am only just scratching the surface.

You are also probably right that my husband will not want to go on a date with me-he is still angry with me.

I went and bought a new outfit anyway though. Not because I wanted it or to make myself feel better, but because he has stated in the past that he would like to see me in something other than business suits and sweats.

I also got my journal and will begin the Sexual Aversion exercises tonight.

I don't know what else I can do.

Thanks

Perfect thinking! Would he be interested in going out on some dates with you? Where you both dress up for each other?


I don't either. You have a plan and you are working it. That is all you can do for now..

MelodyLane-I am not sure if he will or not, but that is what I was thinking we would be doing for the UA time. Trying to think positive at this point.
Thanks for the encouragement.

Hi Raging .. my wife discovered that her aversion was not deep rooted enough that she needed to do so. My wife DID do the excercises for a little bit though but never had to actually finish them. It was my negative reactions to her lack of need meeting that was causing it. Basicly I lovebusted her so bad that I could never keep our love bank balance in the positive. It always border lined neutral or it was in the red. That was .. until i discovered MB and began to work on what caused my wife to lose her love for me. For a while I would be doing PLAN A and our balance would begin to move into the green and then my taker would slip out and start demanding for my needs to be met because she would start to be nice to me again... and we would slip back into a negative balance. Teetering back and forth until i got a grip on my taker and just gave up having my needs met for a while. I basicly had to prove to my wife that MB worked... but it had to work on ME first before she would be convinced that it was effective. When i failed at keeping things "Safe" and my taker kicked in .. she would then say "see .. MB doesnt work ... obviously its working well for you!" in a sarcastic tone. Then we would be back at day 1 again .. and our love balance was 0 or less again.

Sorry for rambling ... hopefully that answers your question.

edit to add... it was kinda like that movie .. Ground Hog Day. I had to get it right or it would just repeat itself all over from the beginning again.

By my reading, she has not said she wants to meet her H needs She has written about doing exercises to overcome SF aversion So I can see where Marcos might infer that she wants to meet those needs even though she hasn't said as much.

It is a good question. RC, what DO you have to say about that?

Do you want to meet your husbands emotional need for SF? ( under appropriate conditions)

Why else would she be following the program, CIGB?

Honestly, I think all these posts from men questioning RC's sincerity about sex are very disrespectful toward her and sure to be discouraging.

RC, can you get home earlier from work? That is terribly late to be getting home. What is your commute time? And I would get the kids out of your bed. That bed is for you and your husband.

And how is your husband doing? Is he feeling any better? Please tell him that your very unpleasant news [that you were considering divorce] is much like getting an overdraft notice from the bank. It is unpleasant to get the notice, but what happens if you DON'T get the notice? The fallout would be much worse. You did a good thing by telling him how you felt. Now you have an opportunity to change your marriage.

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The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Counseling Center at the top of this page.

This is posted at the top of this site, letting any posters know that this is a message board of people with divergent opinions and not a source of professional counseling. I made the recommendation to this lady that she should consider contacting the Harleys because I feel her situation merits it, that the events of the last 24 hours show that she might need help beyond that which we could and perhaps SHOULD provide.

Markos, I know you mean well. And I know that you have had great success with this program and that you and your wife Prisca have reaped the benefits of coming here and now want to share your newfound knowledge and success. For that I am happy for you, I think we all are. But when you start talking for other posters and start redressing others for posting their opinions, don'tcha think that goes a little too far?

This lady can speak for herself, and she did answer me herself, and I think what I posted did have an impact. I personally think she had a bit of tunnel vision and did not consider how her husband thinks or how he would perceive her words, well I guess she's thinking plenty about that now. I AM trying to help this lady, now if she thinks I am way off target, all she has to do is say so, and I will delete my post and not bother her again. But that would be her call, not yours.

While I think she probably does not realize how important sex is to him, it is obvious she has an aversion to sex. Women don't seek divorces when their husbands ask for sex, they give them sex. Women who have sexual aversions seek divorces. She read the article and agrees she has a sexual aversion. As someone who has had this herself, it is easy enough to recognize.

Aversions come as a result of falling out of love and continuing to have sex. The bad feelings that come from that spread to everything else. And anyone can read her posts and know she has fallen out of love. Her lifestyle makes it impossible for her sustain a marriage, much less feelings of love.

Now, can we please get back to helping this woman do the steps in the article How to Overcome a Sexual Aversion?

RC, I think you're doing what you can right now. And I think that MelodyLane is right on, I think you ripped the scab off of a wound that's been festering for a long time. Now you both get to clean it out and put medicine on it so that it can heal properly.

Divorce really sucks, RC, believe me, I know all too well. And I think that you and your husband love each other but just don't know how to get over this one hurdle, and I don't think that either of you know really how the other feels because it's the elephant in the room that neither of you can start a conversation, a real conversation, about without suspecting an ulterior motive. I think that people today sometimes take divorce as frivolously as they do marriage, but I don't think that of you, I just see that you are just frustrated and didn't really mean it, at least I hope not because divorce with seven kids for a problem that can be fixed is not something you really want to contemplate. You just don't know HOW to say what you really want to say because you're afraid your husband won't try to listen. I think he will, he's stuck with you this far, and you can see he was hurt by what you said. I think your husband would LOVE to have help resolving this issue.

I think a moderator would be of a big benefit to you. Someone that is knowledgable about saving marriages, someone that can talk with the both of you individually with the aim of saving the marriage, and together with the ability to keep the discussion focused and on topic. That is why I would recomend you go directly to the source here and contact the Harleys.

I know I could chat with your husband, a lot of us here could, and calm him down and get him to the point where he could see your perspective and get him to the point where he could see the benefit to him to follow this program and work with you to a better marriage. POJA is everything, that, along with the UA time, is at the central core of what a marriage should be. Get that down and the meeting of emotional needs just tends to flow from it. But you have to SELL him on it, RC, he needs to see what tangible and intangible benefits that he could derive from working with you

Sorry, I know I get long winded, but I do want to help you. This place means a lot to everyone who posts here, that's why many have been here for so long passing on what they have learned.

RC I pray no one scared you away and today your spirits are lifted with a glimmer of hope.

Great News!

My husband is calm now and has agreed to do this program! I am so pleased.
He is taking me out tonight to a really fancy restuarant-and he is arranging everything!
Americajin-I was so sure you were right-but he really does want to go out on a date with me!
I am so excited-we haven't been out like this since 2004.

I started the Sexual Aversion exercises last night and wrote in the journal.
Also filled out the EN & LB questionnaires. H is filling his out today.

H has agreed that while we are working on building Romantic Love he will not touch me or attampt to initiate sex. This is such a relief-I feel like a great weight has been lifted from me.

Every-one - thank you all so much for your support and help. Even the posts that are hard to read, I can still learn something from.

Those who were asking if I want to meet my husband's needs. At this point in time I cannot. I am hoping that with the Sexual Aversion exercises and UA time we can get to the point that I will feel differently. I already have a different perspective about my husband's need for sex as a result of some of the posts on this thread.

MelodyLane-I know that my work and our family schedules/routines are crazy. I also know that now we are committed to this program some things must change. H & I plan to sit down in the next few days and try to work out the best way to move forward so that we can incorporate the necessary UA time into our schedules.
H said he may post on here-he has read this thread and was impressed with advice and support offered.

Thanks

MelodyLane-are you out there? I have a question.

Since My husband has agreed not to touch me or initiate sex does that mean I am gaining at his expense?

Just reading a lot on the site and trying to put it all together.

Books still have not come.

Thanks

WOOOWHOO!!! that is GREAT NEWS! .. Almost like christmas was EARLY! I am welling up with joy for you! I pray that you guys find negotiable solutions and work together as a team to tackle these issues. MB can help you .. and now that you hubby is sold on it it DEF will.

GREAT JOB!

I was going to anwser your question .. but not sure if my answer is right .. So i will leave it for mel .. her typing looks better than mine anyhow

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

edit to add that my prayer on the previous page worked!

Thank you MrNiceGuy - I so appreciate your prayers

I know I have a lot of work to do to make this right, but w ehave the right tools and support here I think.

Merry Christmas to you too!

Nope! You are taking steps that will eventually greatly benefit him. So it is for his benefit, not his expense.

I am so happy that your H has been reading and we welcome him to the board!

No, that means you are both being patient until a solution is negotiated that you can both be enthusiastic about.

If nothing is being done, nobody is gaining at the other's expense. If you turned it around, of course, he would be gaining at your expense.

Doing nothing is actually kind of an important Harley concept in itself. It's the "default" policy of the POJA. It's key to revert to doing nothing when the two of you don't have an enthusiastic agreement, to avoid the withdrawal of Love Units.

Of course ... often one spouse will be unhappy with doing nothing. That indicates an unmet emotional need. In order to have a happy marriage, you have to progress toward meeting that need somehow, but in a way you can be enthusiastic about.

In this case, you're not there, yet. Follow the program together, and you will be!

Steve Harley (Dr. Harley's son) told my wife not to make love to me unless she herself was aroused. Turns out that was really, really good advice. Yes, it meant sometimes I had to put sex aside and be patient. But that kept me from gaining at her expense.

True. Quite true. Very, very true.

All of this is being done to construct a situation where his needs will be met.

**edit**

moderator's note: please familarize yourself with our material before you post to those in need

RC, let us know when your books arrive and we can get you started on the lessons. The biggest hurdle for you will be to find 20+ hours of UA time. I would start brainstorming on that issue right now.

YES! I agree! We are DEF glad your hubby is reading and absorbing MB and we DO welcome him to the board. You two wll REAP the benefits when you work MB together!

How was your date?

MNG

MelodyLane & Marcos-thanks for clarifying that for me.

MrNiceGuy - our date was great. We had a nice meal, then went into the dance/club area and we talked a bit and danced a bit-it was really nice. It has been a very long time since we have given each other this kind of attention.

Did day #2 of the Sexual Aversion exercises. I recorded in my journal-think I did well with it and used the relaxation techniques. I think one more day will be good in the step 1 exercise and then I will move on to step 2.

Americajin - I just wanted to let you know that I am re-reading all of your posts. There is so much information in them, I cannot take it all in at one time. Thank you for such well thought-out posts. My husband appreciated them also.

Ok, so here is my plan to move us forward and get the needed UA time:

Take a 6-week leave-of-absence from my job
Make Dr appt for H for consult for vasectomy
Make appt with my coach to rearrange my training sessions
Come up with doable plan to reduce my work hours when I return to work
Post ad/conduct interviews for Housekeeper/Nanny
Call construction companies to come give quotes to finish 2 basement bedrooms (so we then have 2 bedrooms upstairs for the babies & toddler to move in to).
Wean toddler -30 days
Wean babies - 60-90 days

H filled out his questionnaires yesterday and gave them to me.
Not suprisingly, I got two big fat zeros on his top 2 needs.
Lots of LoveBusters I need to work on...

Any thoughts or suggestions on my plan?

Thanks again for all you help.

You are doing great! I think you are organized and disciplined enough to pull this off, RC. You catch on fast and are pro-active. You are thinking of ways to arrange your life in a way that will make it possible to fall in love again. You have a plan to cut back on work hours and you have a plan to get the babies out of your room.

Did you tell me you ordered the books? When you get them, I would start with Lovebusters. At the same time, you will want to start using the UA worksheet to schedule your UA time.

Another great resource is the MB radio show here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4200_radio.html

You can listen to the shows for 24 hours after each broadcast AND listen to the archives free in the archives section. You will learn alot, very quickly from listening to the show. And if you have a question for Dr Harley, you can email him and he will answer your question for free.

What are your H's top needs?

MelodyLane - thanks for the support.

Yes, I ordered His Needs Her Needs and LoveBusters and I was going to ask which we should do first, so thanks for antcipating that. Books should be arriving soon-I think they were supposed to get here yesterday.

We got in 5 hours UA last night and 2 hours this morning!

We will check out those links to the radio broadcasts too.

My husband's top needs are sex & affection.

Thanks

Not a vet here, but being a Mom of 8 who breastfed kids for years, and had them in our bed, etc., I wanted to speak to the sexual desire issue. I never developed an aversion, but I wanted you to know that once they were all weaned and in their own beds. my desire for SF went way up. I believe this is partly from getting more rest, more time with dh, and hormonal changes. BF reduces desire in many women. Weaning along with following the program should be very helpful!

RC,

Just want to join the chorus here.

Not only are you proactive, but you seem excited to do this! That's awesome.

I don't know if anyone liked the "why women leave men" article to you, but I'm certain it would make sense to you.

The reason? Neglect!

The thing is, you had developed a lifestyle that contributed to that neglect.

Kudos to you for recognizing that!

Thank you for your encouragement HoldHerHand.

wonderingif - thanks for the input on the breast feeding. Good to know. I usualy breastfeed mine for 2.5 to 3 years, so weaning the toddler (20 months) is a big change for us.
The babies (twins 10 months) are even harder as they were preemies and are only just now 9.5 pounds-they need that breastmilk! So that is why weaning them will be 60-90 days out.

Yes, I am hoping with weaning them all there will be an improvement in my interest in sex.

Thanks

I am logging out now for the week-end.

Merry Christmas to all of you who have responded to me on this thread. I thank you all for all the help, support & encouragement that I have received here.

Blessings to you and your families

Thanks
RC

I have completed Day 6 of the Sexual Aversion exercises. On Day 4 I moved to Step 2 in the program. This is the step where I am supposed to think about sex with my husband. This step is not going as smoothly for me-I am having to stop a lot and do the relaxation techniques. However, I am moving forward - I did better on Day 6 than Days 4 & 5.

We have had to go back to square one with my plans (listed several posts above). I did not POJA the plans with H and he is not on board, so we need to sit down and work on this asap.

Our UA time has been good over the holiday week-end and we are both enjoying the time we spend together.

I have lots to work on, as H identified lots of areas that I LB him and where I need to meet his needs. He put a lot of thought & time into filling out his questionaires. I am just struggling a bit with it all-it seems overwhelming.

H has read a lot on this site now. I believe he has a better grasp of the concepts than I do.

RC

I am on Day 8 of the Sexual Aversion exercises. Still on Step 2.

The books I ordered have still not arrived, but H & I both received Nooks for Christmas. So we have His Needs Her Needs on our Nooks and are working our way through the book in our UA time-just finished Chapter 4. We were not able to get LoveBusters in this format, so we still don't have that one.

Yesterday we had our first try using POJA. We were successful in resolving a couple of issues.

My six week leave-of -absence starts next week. We plan to use this time to jump start our UA time and research possibilities for ether a different job or reduced working hours for me.

We have also posted an ad for a Nanny/Housekeeper. This will enable us to get the UA time we need after I go back to work.

We will POJA the other items on the list a couple at a time as time allows. Right now, we do not POJA these things during UA time as it is somewhat stressful. So far our UA time has been really good and we are already feeling better towards each other. Reading the book together helps too-lots of good information.

I am still guilty of LB'ing H, but he is calling me on it consistantly, so I am gaining awareness. Also after reading Chapter 4 of HNHN I am determined to change the way I behave towards him.

We had a horrible negative feed-back loop set up regarding affectionate & sexual touch. I am hoping that H agreeing not just to no sex, but no touch during this time will help break that loop. Then we can establish new (and healthier) habits.

H is being very patient and gracious with me -I am very thankful for that.

RC

You are doing great!


How about doing some select articles about Lovebusters in your lessons today? Plugging those holes will make your efforts at meeting needs worthwhile, so I would focus on ending lovebusters ASAP.

You can also download the lovebusters questionaire, take it, and exchange it. It is in the questionaire section.

Smart thinking to not practice the POJA in your UA time. Dr Harley does suggest learning how to use POJA in the grocery store while shopping as one way to avoid fights. My H and I did have a huge fight in the produce section but most people do not.

Keep up the good work!

MelodyLane - Thanks for your helpful response. Good Idea! I will look up a couple of articles about LoveBusters and print out for us to look at tonight. We have already printed and filled out the LB questionaires and exchanged them.

My issue is awareness. I am ashamed to say that I am so used to speaking to my H in a disrespectful manner that I am not even aware that I am doing it. Working on that.

Thanks for the input.

RC

Join the club, friend! I was just reading my post to Dr Harley - from 2007 - about our first attempt at using the POJA. It evolved into a fight and I cringe reading how disrespectful I was back then! I will post our first attempt at the POJA. It was real crazy. I am amazed at how far we have come from that point. It is like night and day now!

Ironically, Dr Harley mentioned this fight on his radio show yesterday. He told Joyce he had a client who had a fight in the produce section. She said "REALLY??" He said "Really!"

Here is my subsequent post 8 months later:

RC, it was AMAZING to me how one lovebuster led to others and made the environment so unpleasant that it impacted our entire relationship. And when we eliminated those major lovebusters it had a positive domino effect on everything else.

In my marriage, eliminating 2 lovebusters, IB and AO's and learning to negotiate made the most dramatic difference. That, and the practice of "flashing" my husband, which he so loves.

MelodyLane - thanks for those quotes and stories-lots of insight there. The grocery store fight is too funny!

After reading all that, one of H's issues is a little clearer to me. He had initialy placed what he called "not feeling heard" as being part of his EN of Intimate Conversation (his #3 EN). Now I am thinking it has more to do with my Independent Behavior...

Thanks
RC

This story never gets old.

I don't have a whole lot to add to the excellent advise you're receiving, but the line from your plan that I bolded above stood out to me and since no one has mentioned it, I thought I would ask.

Is it possible that you fear getting pregnant again and that is contributing to you not wanting to have sex with your H?

H4U

Hard to believe I was so bad! Dr Harley mentioned this on his radio show yesterday. It is right about at 5:00 on this clip: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=3479

Hopeforus - You are exactly right, I am terrified of getting pregnant again. although it is not the entire reason for the problem of me not wanting sex, it is certainly a large contributing factor.
We will be POJA'ing this issue this week-end.

We are going out on another date tonight!
With all this UA time, I am starting to feel like a spoiled princess. H has never showered me with this much of his attention in our entire marriage.
I am starting to feel guilty that I am not meeting his top 2 needs right now. I am doing well (according to him) on EN #'s 3 & 4

We read the first chapter of LoveBusters last night (found it on this site). Ugh-we had an incident almost exactly as described in the example. No wonder I am so messed up.

Continuing with the Sexual Aversion exercises. Still on Step 2-doing a little better each day and recording in my journal.

Still not doing so well with my LoveBusters to H. I need to come up with a better plan to resolve this or he will be getting fed up of me.

Tomorrow is my last day at work for six weeks. We plan to spend at least 4 hours a day for UA time. I will spend the rest of my days researching options for work and time with the children.

RC

Tell that to the folks whose LB$ you ain't fillin!

Seriously, though. I would say the best aspect of that, sorry to say, is you getting busted on IB! And not because it's you, per se, but because it's every poster here and rages about how terrible their spouse is!

We have NO CLUE as to the horrors our perfect behinds are unleashing upon our marriages!

/end t/j

This all sounds positive....except for the LB's. You definitely need to eliminate the LB's. They KILL romantic love and attraction in a marriage.

How does your H feel about the snip? Does he want more kids? Or is he just concerned about the procedure and that's why you need to POJA it?

If he's worried about the procedure, tell him it's no big deal. Weekend on the couch with an ice pack and he'll be good to go. Only problem I had was the day after the procedure I'd fallen asleep on the couch and my W was doing some laundry and one of our son's ran up and kinda fell on top of me....and yep, direct hit!

Keep working. It'll be worth the effort!

H4U.

I bought Lovebusters on Kindle. It looks like they just scanned and OCR a paper copy. Many typos and other errors. It is readable, with patience. I have bad eyes, so can't easily read paper books, but for most people I'd say get the hard copy!

Hopeforus - H did want more children and is concerned about the procedure. We have to POJA this because I am so done. After the babies were born prematurely (and I was seriously ill) he said he was going to get it done, but never followed through. This issue has to get addressed.
Thanks for the info though-H is reading this thread, so will be reassuring for him to hear.
Still working on my LoveBusters...


RC

I can see why you're done with SF. Need verses want and society needs has show extra large families are not best for the world over all. There are many effective ways to stop the swimmers from reaching their goal. So any operation is not an necessity when alternatives are there.

Your H has heard this but evidently because he has never been the one to get pregnant 7 times he chooses to ignore the phyical stress he is placing you under and act as everything is fine.

TheRoad - thank you for your thoughtful post. Yes, we will be POJA'ing all available options-not just a vasectomy.
I have actually had 13 pregnancies-7 ending in miscarriage and 6 to full term (last one twins). So, yes this is a huge issue for my physical well being.
My husband does not think everything is fine. He is very aware of the issues and we are now working on them together, thanks to MarriageBuilders.

Question for experts
After reading the chapter in His Needs Hers Needs where Dr Harley encourages wives to learn as much about sex and their sexuality as they can, I want to get some good reading material on these topics. However when I search these topics, hundreds of books come up. Anyone have any good ones they know about for a beginner?

Thanks

RC

Not an expert, but I've read HNHN and listened to the audio CD; Dr. H. recommends in the audio version a book called "Woman's Orgasm" by Georgia Kline-Graber and Benjamin Graber. I had a tough time finding it (because I was too embarrassed to follow the directions he gives on the CD, involving calling the Little-Brown publishing company, etc) but I was able to find a used copy on Amazon. It's no longer in print.

There's a lot of detail about the anatomy of a woman and what specifically happens during orgasm, including steps in working up to getting there. Dr. H. says there are steps that can be skipped, but the part he particularly points out is the info about the PCG muscle and how it needs to be in good condition for a woman to really enjoy SF.

Thank you so much for answering that question, Longway!! There are several used books for sale on Amazon. Ironically, the cheapest is a used hardback for $10.00. I found it here: http://www.amazon.com/Womans-orgasm..._0?ie=UTF8&qid=1325448399&sr=8-1

LongWayFromHome & MelodyLane - thanks so much for that info - book is ordered! Also re-ordered LoveBusters as I think my other order must have got lost.

Update

I have completed Day 12 of the Sexual Aversion exercises. I am done with Step 2 at last! I move on to Step 3 this evening. This is the step where I have to think about having sex with my husband-while he is in the room (15 minute exercise). Obviously, Ineed his co-operation for this step. He is very willing to do whatever I need. I am actually hopeful for the first time that I can conquer this issue! Still recording everything in my journal.

Our UA time has been good and now that I am done with work for a while we will have significant chunks of time to spend together.

Doing better with my LoveBusters today.

We POJA'd weaning the toddler and have tabled weaning the babies for now as H is not on board with this at this time.

Also POJA'd bedrooms and have come up with a temporary solution until the downstairs bedrooms can be completed. Toddler Boy has moved in with his older brothers and babies have their portable cribs moved in with D15. Will take several months for the work to be done-then we will juggle bedrooms again.

We have several people coming tomorrow to interview for the Nanny/Housekeeper.

Plan to POJA the birth control issues this evening-throw up a prayer for me if you are so inclined!

We are doing well with the POJA-I think this is really helping my husband to feel heard in our marriage.

Thanks everyone for all the help and input.

RC

Bravo to you!! I am so proud of how well you have grasped this program! You are a much, much faster learner than me...

Are you happy with the set up of your bedroom? Is it a nice place with a comfortable bed that both you and your husband enjoy?

A magic moment for NGB and I was fueled by a segment of "The Vagina Monologues" called "Because He Liked to Look at It."
The moment happened because in that instance, somehow, my wife was able to view herself through my eyes.

Now, considering where you are in your SA exercises, the time probably isn't proper, but it may be worth considering later. You can find a reading of it on Youtube, view ot, and decide when you are ready to share it with your husband.

HoldHerHand - Thank you so much for the information-I will be looking into it shortly.

MelodyLane - Thank you for your support. Don't give me too much credit yet though... I still haven't eliminated my LB's to H plus I am not yet meeting his top 2 ENs (sex & affection).
Yes, we are enjoying having the bedroom to ourselves (most of the time anyway). It has been 15 years since we have aways had the children in bed with us.

I have now completed Day 15 of the Sexual Aversion exercises.
This step is difficult for me - trying to think about sex while H is in the same room produces lots of anxiety. Using the relaxation techniques and writing in my journal..

Well POJA'ing the birth control issue turned out to be easy. H apologized for not following through and called to make an appt for the consult. I asked if he was sure about it and he said he was, so I am very happy.

No Nanny yet-all the applicants were too young (despite the fact I put "mature" in the Ad). We are going to re-post and see what happens.

POJA'd my clothing choices today-that was somewhat heated and stressful!

Our UA time is still going well.
H has stated he is feeling like he needs physical touch from me-even though we both agreed we would not do this until I was done with the Sexual Aversion exercises. He said he will go and get a massage at the health club tomorrow and then maybe we can discuss/rehash our agreement about touch.
I am not sure how to proceed with this issue. I have such a negative feed-back loop going on with affectionate/sexual touch that I am hesitant to go there at this point.

Anyway, moving along pretty well with the program-just wanted to give everyone an update.

RC

Credit is to be given where credit is due, RC.

You could design a thousand different reasons to not even attempt to meet your husband's needs.

Instead, you are here, you are actively implementing plans to improve your marriage, and you are taking responsibility for yourself and your actions as they pertain to your marriage.

And it sounds like you are beginning to reap rewards, as will your husband, and thus your marriage.

Don't be so quick to dismissed a deserved pat on the back.

PS - dear predictive text... Sometime I hate you...

RC, good job! I like that you are being very careful about the nanny. It would be a disaster to have an attractive woman in your home with a sex starved husband!


Keep in mind that if you get stuck here, you can always email Dr Harley on the radio show and he will help you over the bumps. I imagine it is difficult and am hoping your anxiety leaves soon.

Keep up the good work!

HoldHerHand & MelodyLane - Thanks for the encouragement.

Well H & I have renegotiated the no touch agreement that we made when I began the Sexual Aversion exercises. We did this last night and it was an exhausting POJA session.
We have now agreed that affectionate touch is ok during this time. This means I will be able to meet H's # 2 EN. He gave me detailed instructions on his EN questionaire as to how he would like this need to be met. I was able to change his mind about getting massages at the health club.
All of our UA time must be working-2 weeks ago I would have been afraid to touch him. Now, I am not. It helps, of course, that I know it will not lead to sex... but one step at a time.
Anyway, I am feeling very positive about this. We have finished HNHN and I really do want to become am expert at meeting his needs. He is doing an excellent job of meeting mine (well most of them). I think I can do this!
Thanks for reading along-just rambling today really.

LoveBusters & the orgasm book have arrived and H has picked out a couple of books about sex to put on our Nooks that we can read together when I am comfortable with the idea.

H just got an e-mail from an older lady at our church who is interested in the job! He will meet with her this afternoon.

Off to get in some UA time before the day gets away from us.

RC

RC, that is a major breakthrough that you feel ready to try affection! Please let us know what you think about the sex books. I know others here would benefit from reading such a book.

Keep up the good work, friend!

Great job RC! I gotta get my wife a copy of that orgasm book. But I just wanted to chime in here for your Hubbys benefit. I had a vasectomy and let me tell you .. the anticipation of getting it done was FAR FAR Worse than the actual procedure. I was in and out in like 20mins and there was not stitches .. or anything. A tad uncomfortable .. embarassing ... BUT was totally worth it. Infact i had myself all worked up looking up procedures online .. i almost passed out watching it done on vid ... BUT like I said .. the procedure was surprisingly not that bad. Sorry to be blunt .. but the pain during the procedure was no more than say a mosquito bite and a dull ache for a few moments. I did it on a Friday .. and was back in "business" by monday. It will feel uncomfortable for those few days ... but i just distracted myself on the computer with a few games .. and my wife had me sit on a bag of frozen veggies for a day and all was well. If you have ever had a filling done to your teeth ... thats worse than getting a vasectomy.

Hopefully that helps ease your hubbies anxiety about it if he has any.

MNG

MrNiceGuy - thank you so much for that information-H found it very helpful. He has his consult tomorrow, then will schedule the procedure.

MelodyLane - I will be sure and let you know what I think of the book-haven't got to it yet as we wanted to read LoveBusters first. We are half way through it so far.

Update

I have completed Day 20 of the Sexual Aversion exercises. I am still on Step 3, but am having much less stress and anxiety now. I am getting pretty good at using the relaxation techniques to control my anxiety. Had a sort of breakthrough in my thought processes this weekend while recording in my journal. I had assumed that the first feeling of tension that then led to anxiety were directly connected and stemmed from my fears (of sex with my H). However after paying close attention to each feeling and how my body reacts, I now believe that the feeling of tension is actually a reaction to sexual arousal (at least for me in this current step). I automatically jump from tension to anxiety...I am actually afraid of my own arousal, I think. Wow! That would explain a lot. So -trying to jump in with the relaxation techniques as soon as I feel the tension.
Anyway, still learning, observing and recording.

We are getting in lots of UA time and with being able to do affectionate touch we are both really feeling the difference.
H is so much more relaxed and easy going now that his need for affection is being met-and he is just generally much happier.
Now that we are reading LoveBusters, I am better about catching myself and responding approppriately (and promptly) when H points out my LBs. The kids have even caught on to this! ("Mommy it's direspectful to talk to Daddy like that")

The children are doing well with the new sleeping arrangements and I am almost done weaning Toddler Boy.
We have a Nanny/Housekeeper starting part time next week. She will go full time when I go back to work.
Still exploring job options for myself-have an appointment on Wednesday to discuss a possible teaching position that would be less hours (but less pay too).

Thanks for all the help and advice.

RC

RC - I am glad my description of my experience was helpful to your hubby, i was afraid it might not be .. but posted anyways.

Great job! keep up the good work!

Update

I have completed Day 27 of the Sexual Aversion exercises and I am on Step 5 at last We have not actually progressed to intercourse, but we are doing touching and relaxation exercises together.

It seems like I took forever to get to this point. Then again I have nothing to compare it to-I was never able to find an account of anyone else going through these exercises.

We have a plan for when we are able to be intimate. H is writing out a very detailed set of instructions for me on his ENQ (just like he did for me for Affection). We decided that, at first I will be the one to initiate-and I will follow his written instructions for specifics (how, how often, etc). We feel this is best for us given my history of negative feedback loops with affectionate/sexual touch. After initiating, once I have reached sexual arousal, then H will take charge from there.

If this all sounds a ittle clinical, it is because I am pretty clueless in this area. Our sex life up to now has been very limited. I know that at forst I will feel awkward and embarrased, but I have learned enough from the Sexual Aversion exercises to know that there is a difference between feeling awkward and feeling anxious. Plus I have the tools now to resolve issues as they arise.

H is getting the snip done tomorrow. This means so much to me - that he is willing to do this. Thanks to everyone who has weighed in on this with the helpful comments for him.

We have been consistently getting 20 hours minimum UA time-sometimes 25 per week. That is paying off for sure in building our relationship. I am doing better with my LB's and we are both doing a good job of meeting each other's needs.

Toddler Boy is now weaned, so just nursing the babies-will probably continue that for another 6 months
Everyone is settled into the new (temporary) sleeping arrangements.

Nanny didn't work out, so we are posting a new Ad for household help-to clean,run errands etc -we shall see if that will work better.

I have been offerred a new job with a lot less hours, but a lot less money-we have to POJA this-probably this coming weekend.

Thanks for listening!

RC

RC, it sounds like you are progressing beautifully! You are so methodical and disciplined that it is a joy to read you walk through the steps. One question I had was about this:


Is he taking charge because you don't know yet WHAT you enjoy? Because the key is for you to find ways to make love that you enjoy and avoid anything you dislike. In other words, avoiding
unpleasant so you don't feel averse. Dr Harley once said on the radio if that when a woman enjoys the sexual experience, it becomes like crack to her! So the key is for her to teach her husband how to satisfy her sexually and avoid anything she doesn't like.

Keep up the good work, my friend!

MelodyLane - yes. exactly-I have no clue about what I enjoy in this area. From doing the Sexual Aversion exercises though, I am clear on what I do NOT enjoy, so that is a step forward for sure.
My H suggested me following his instructions and him being in charge so that we can work together to find out what is enjoyable for me. He is willing to work with me on the relaxation techniques if we come up against issues that make me uncomfortable.
We are also agreed to follow Dr Harley's instructions to the letter about not proceeding with intercourse unless I have reached sexual arousal.

Hope that answers your question.

Thanks for the encouragement.

RC

Hey raging .. i was thinking of you .. how did your hubbies procedure go?

MrNiceGuy - Thanks for asking-the procedure went well with no problems. H sat on a bag of frozen peas for a day, then he was fine.
This is just the best thing he could have done for our family. I am so thankful he was willing to do this.

Update

I completed the Sexual Aversion exercises in 32 days. H & I are now able to make love with no problems! We are both so happy with this outcome. It helps a lot that I don't have to worry about getting pregnant.

We are doing well with UA time-20 hours minimum. We are enjoying each other's company and H is thriving with all of his needs finally being met.

Toddler Boy is weaned and sleeping through the night in his big boy bed. I have begun the process of weaning the babies.

I have accepted a new job that I start March 1. It is only 30 hours a week and a significant pay cut, but with some serious number crunching, I think we can make it. We will have to sell the house and get something more manageable (payment-wise), but that is doable.

We gave up on the Nanny hunt, but have hired Household Help to come in daily to clean, do laundry & errands. That will help a lot (that is the work I was doing in the evenings).

I struggle with POJA at times, but H loves it!
I have eliminated almost all LoveBusters and H is patient with me when I screw up-I am a work in progress.

Thanks for all the input & support.

RC

Wow! Very impressive progress in one month! Shows what you can do when you put your mind to it and work the program.

You are doing so good, RC!! I sympathize with your POJA troubles. It sure didn't come easy for me at first either. Is your husband feeling better about everything now?

So your H has gone back and has a zero count? Seems pretty soon, but maybe I've lost track of time. I don't recall how long it was when I did this a few years back.

I do know getting the big V was the best $100 co-pay I ever paid

Congrats on your progress.

MelodyLane-yes, my H is feeling much better. He loves this program! Thanks for asking.

Enlightened Ex - No, it is too soon for a zero count yet-he had the procedure done on 17th. The Dr. said 10-12 weeks usually-he will get checked around that time. Alternate measures until then.
Thanks for the encouragement.

RC

Do not skip the test, and do protect meanwhile!

RC, I saw your post on another thread so I looked up your history and re-read your story.

You were making great progress the last time you posted here. How are things now? Having just re-read about how you were breastfeeding three kids at this time I am still astonished. Your body must have been under such a lot of strain. Are the twins fully weaned now? Do they sleep all night, in their own rooms? Have your energy levels gone up? Do you stil have someone to help with the housework, and do you spend regular UA time with your H?

You didn't tell us that your H had Aspergers on this thread. It was good that you could chime in with first-hand knowledge to help the other poster.

SugarCane - Thank you for your interest. It has been a while since I last posted-we have had a busy year. We sold our expensive house and bought a cheaper one. I quit my stressful (but high-paying) job and now work 30 hours a week at a teaching job plus a small side business at home.

Yes, the twins are weaned and in their own bedroom - they will be 2 in February! All the children sleep in their own rooms and through the night.

We do have daily household help plus my Mother babysits as needed.

Marriage Builders has been a great program for us. We are consistent with our UA time (15-20 hours) and continue to improve our POJA skills (my H is still better at it than I am).
We even managed a long weekend away earlier this Fall. We are both thriving-so happy we found the help & support of this forum during our marriage crisis. I still read a lot on here, but just haven't posted.

I did not mention the Aspergers because with all the other issues we had going on at the beginning of my thread, it just did not seem relevant.

RC

She is a GREAT STUDENT!! thanks for checking in, my friend!

I am thrilled to hear this report. You and your H are indeed great students and you deserve enormous credit for addressing each of the issues that were contributing to your problems; the job, the breastfeeding and co-sleeping and the overall lack of UA time.

The change in tone from when you first posted - completely withdrawn and ready to leave - is amazing. I hope others learn from your systematic approach to applying MB.

Congratulations!

I got the message from my fiance and I am confuse what should I write please advice.
Here is the message.
"I told you I was sick for the past three to four days. I'm feeling much better now. I don't think my father would be too pleased for me to go to alone. So that's why there has been no trip. It would be great to take time off work though. Who know when that miracle will happen?
So you are coming on Saturday and leaving Thursday, right? That's not bad though. Still longer than your last visit.
As for trying to get to know me more, go ahead and try. "

I will be very thankful of you if can sagest me the right answer.

SugarCane - Thank you, I appreciate your encouragement and support. After you pulled up this thread, I reread it from the beginning. I agree with you - I sound like a different person - I think I was going through some kind of nervous breakdown or something, when I first came to this site.

Anyway, we followed all the steps and tried to do everything right because we both wanted better for ourselves and for our children, so we had a powerful motivation to get it right.
I am grateful that we were both on board with the program. I should also add that although the steps are laid out clearly and simply, that does not equate to easy. This is the hardest thing I have ever done.

I am grateful also for the help and support from MelodyLane.
MelodyLane, I cannot thank you enough for the help and support you gave to me during that period of crisis in my life. You seemed to "get" my issue straight away and know just what needed to be done-Thank You.

Thanks also to Marcos & Prisca who were also very supportive.

RC

You are very welcome, RC!! I am so happy that you have been so successful as a result of your efforts.. You were pro-active and willing to do the tough things even though they were tough. Good for you!

Great update! .. its always nice to see people come back with positive results. Keep up the good work!