Ok, trying to figure out how to sell MB without sounding like a nag to a man who thinks the marriage is fine. He thinks family time is MUCH MUCH more important than UA. I have been and am trying to be honest about how I feel. Yet, I don't think you can sell a man on a program by saying, "I need you to spend time with me. I need you to spend time with me." and lets talk about issues when you do get to see him..

Last week we had a grand total of 4 1/2 hours of UA time because he was on call 4 days last week. This week we have an hour so far. He will be gone for a conference Thursday/Friday. He leaves the next Wednesday for a mission trip for a week and a half.

So, do I spend Saturday trying to nail down the fact that we do not spend enough time together and I REALLY want us to institute POJA and UA or do I try to make it an enjoyable time??? Do I kidnap him to have a fun recreational time on Saturday and then talk about it on Sunday afternoon?

I have been keeping the house pretty much spotless and continuing to exercise and try to make myself look attractive as those were the two areas he mentioned wanting improvement when we discussed our emotional needs. How do I try to get my needs met without sounding like a nag or a broken record?

He has been making an effort by being more physically affectionate with me. Making me talk about difficult issues: he asked me what was wrong and I told him I was scared about the biopsy and he held me and comforted me. He has been admiring me and telling me how good the house looks and what a good job I've been doing. So it isn't like he isn't doing anything. But still we need more UA time.

Dr Harley encourages spouses to complain if their needs are not being met

TW, I would cut and paste this to your thread. It all relates so there's no need for a new thread. It's helpful for people who don't know your story to be able to page back and get the jist of it and see what you've been struggling with so far.

I can tell you that I though my marriage was fine too, once. Evidently my wife did not. While you have the advantage of KNOWING you weren't satisfied, it took my now-ex wife's extramarital affair to show her that she was not happy. Now we're divorced.

If your DH were to come here, I would tell him that him being happy in the marriage is NOT enough. And that if he is not meeting your EN's and doing things to keep you in love with him, then you are bound to find someone else who will. He doesn't think so (and niether do you), but it will happen one way or another. The relationship you have now is not "sustainable" in it's imbalance of happiness. (e.g. you can't keep "kidnapping" him.)

But I doubt if he would be interested in hearing my words, who am I anyway?
Perhaps it might mean more coming from Dr. Harley himself. (I predict he will say just what I said, but who knows?). I would suggest you e-mail the show and request a radio interview. This is a well-worn topic and they would probably be delighted to go over it again. THEN you can play the interview for him and see if that has an impact. I would not do this without talking to him first however -- that's IB. Do a little POJA first.

I also have to say I think you may be being a little hasty. As I've said before I believe these topics take a lot of time to understand and master. You got 4.5 hours last week. That is a triumph in most marriages. How would you feel about making in a GOAL to work toward 15 hours/week and then 20? See what your DH would say about mapping it out with you. myabe 6 this week, then 8-10 next. You have one this week and it's only Tuesday. Not bad. Do you have an actual schedule that you've talked about? Dr. Harley recommends filling out a schedule weekly, together. I think you'd feel better knowing there was something written down, to work with.

Can you meet him at the conference?

-----Being gone for 10 days away from you is not MB and is somethign that should be addressed at some point----- *might be another question to pose to Dr. H and make part of the radio interview that your husband will listen to.

I welcome him here, as well. It might mean something different hearing it from folks who have been on both sides of it.

opt

Ac

This does belong on your existing thread, because even though that thread has evolved, this is an issue that we were dealing with recently. Also, your old thread provides context.

I remember that I and other people advised you on your existing thread that the UA issue cannot be resolved in your situation without some changes in lifestyle. Yet you are still saying that your H has to work these hours, and he has to be away for these days, so that leaves only this time for UA. We advised you that you and he need to consider changes in his working pattern and work life so that 15 hours' UA time can happen every week.

Have you considered doing that?

Yes, that is my point. How do I sell this to my husband. I have given up all of my activities to be home, but his work hasn't changed. So now I have no outside interests and am basically organizing the house. ( But those closets sure are looking good!) How do I sell him?

How do I make it so it isn't a selfish demand? I mean if I REALLY want the 15 hours alone and he thinks time at home with kids is enough then what?

I don't agree that you are being hasty, tw. The incremental approach is not the way Dr Harley advises those of us who do the online course to approach UA time when it's difficult. Also, the incremental approach will never work as long as there are big blocks of time when your H has to be away from you.

From what I understand you to be saying,

- you could not increase UA time last week because H was on call for 4 nights

- you cannot get much in this week because we are already at Tuesday and you've only had an hour so far, and H will be away on Thursday and Friday

- his leaving next Wednesday will several curtail the time available that week

- his being away the whole of the following week means UA time will be nil that week.

So things are getting incrementally worse over the next few weeks, not better.

You cannot take an incremental approach with those regular or revolving commitments, even if Dr Harley recommended it - which he doesn't.

I don't have a magic answer to make a spouse listen to you. Dr Harley has written about what to do when a spouse won't listen. Have a look at PW2007's thread in this forum. She is expressing exactly the same frustrations as you. Our dear friend Brainy posted some links for her to read and listen to, so you should read them too.

In your shoes, I would phone the coaching centre and speak to Dr Harley's son Steve. Everyone here speaks highly of how he is able to motivate reluctant spouses. It would be good if your H agreed with your decision to call Steve but if he doesn't agree, call him anyway. It is not an issue of independent behaviour when you are trying to save your marriage using MB.

Use the link in the red area at the top of every page and book a call now. You have talked around this for long enough, and no action is being taken. This situation is critical.

In addition to all the above, does "on call" mean he is still at home, but just might need to leave at any moment?

My H is on-call on weekends (also in emergency services) but we can still do our UA time - but in those instances, we do something more simple like going for a very long walk, which he can leave if need be, rather than out for a fancy dinner or bowling.

Yes, this is what it means. Basically he got home Friday at 7:30 and we ate dinner and went to bed. He left at 5am and came home at 8:30 pm as he bounced from case to case that came in. He ate and went to bed as he was exhausted from surgery. The phone rang several times in the middle of the night until he left at 4am. He did 3 hip surgeries and came hom in the middle of the afternoon. Yes, we did spend a couple of hours of ua time that afternoon. We've almost finished putting together the windmill. But to be honest, he was absolutely exhausted so he wasn't that talkative.

I would also encourage this contact. I have now had 5 sessions with S. Harley, some alone, and some with my W. At first I thought I'd hear some canned phrases, generalities, and non specific comments easily applicable to anyone. That was not the case though. Although I wasn't reluctant, and initially contacted him for a sanity check, his comments and rather quick observations made we 'stumble' and 'pause' uncharacteristically since his discussion quickly became acutely applicable to 'me' , 'us' and 'our' situation. It is worth a try for you, and if you can eventually get your husband there on a one-on-one, it should be telling.

We had the best day on Saturday with over 5 hours of UA time. Sunday he was frantically getting ready for his trip and I was the secretary running off this or that, finding this or that, etc. I just hated to ruin Saturday by complaining, so I didn't. Here is a letter I wrote. I have also run off several chapters. I think he could fit them in his stuff. How does this sound?

Dearest ,

I love you. I�m going to miss you SO much while you are gone! Tell __________ I said hello and he needs to come back to visit us in the states with his whole family next time! I�ll be interested to see how God uses you in this assignment!

I have been enjoying our time together SO much over the last few weeks. Thank you for making an effort to fill my love bank! It hasn�t gone unnoticed. I feel closer to you than I have in a while!! Thank you SO much for making an effort!

I have run off a couple of excerpts from the Fall in Love and Stay in Love and Love Buster books. They cover the concepts of Undivided Attention, Policy of Joint Agreement (POJA), honesty and making career decisions. I know that I haven�t done a good job of following POJA all the time. If I think that I can�t get you to agree with something, so I just won�t bring it up and do it anyway. That isn�t good. I�m sorry for doing that. The chapter on honesty also struck a chord in me. If I am not honest about what is bothering me, then how can you fix it? I also think that spending undivided time together is important. I thought that you might have some extra time on the trip to read some of this.

I was wondering if you might be willing to consider doing an experiment? Would you be willing to try and spend the UA time and follow the POJA for 3 months? He suggests meeting on Sundays to talk over and plan the week. I would be curious to see if doing this also helps with your stress with your job. Speaking of which, you haven�t said much lately about it. I�m not sure if it is better or if you just don�t want to burden me with it. I do want you to continue to share your feelings about it with me. Together we can tackle anything!

I love you and have enjoyed having fun with you the last few weeks! I �ll be counting the days until you return.

Your best friend

tiredwife, I like your letter!! Good job! If you would like, I will email you the undivided attention worksheet. I scanned it into my computer and we just print it up every week.

The best way to plan UA time is to schedule it out, writing out the dates, activities, etc. Time that is not scheduled is too easy to put off so Harley recommends writing out the schedule and sticking to it.

If you want it, just hit mod notify and give them your email address and ask them to send it to me. I will forward you the sheet in PDF form.

Here is the workbook we got when we went through the MB course: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6090_step.html

It has all the worksheets in it along with step by step instructions.

Also, we did not learn the POJA until we had been consistently following the POUA for a few months. Our first forays at the POJA were a DISASTER and we had a pretty good marriage at that point! It was WW11! Just a word of caution.

Wow, that letter is fantastic!

Thanks for the offers for the books, but first I bought the 5 steps to Romantic love for my Kindle app on my laptop, only to discover that you can't print off of it!! But then they sent me 5 steps and Love Busters when I called!! So I have all the forms I need. Thanks, though

Well it is done. I put it in the computer along with the articles. He will probably find it when he opens it up to get work done on his 6 hour flight. Heart is pounding..

Thanks guys for putting up with me and my questions since there isn't anyone I can talk to. Now, a couple of thoughts/questions about POJA. I'm sure he will readily agree to it because he thinks we are already doing it. The problem is my dishonesty. I don't tell him what I really think or feel sometimes. For example: our family was taking the typhoid vaccination ( 1 pill every other day , there are 4 of them) We were partway through when my husband brought home the flu shot to give us. I asked him if it was really a good idea to take this at the same time as the typhoid since they were both live vaccines. He saw no problem whatsoever. Plus, he had already signed them out of the office so they couldn't be returned and he didn't want them to go bad. I reluctantly agreed. That is what I typically do..ok, you know best. But if he needs my enthusiastic agreement. Oh dear.. He may not be able to do anything... I would not have agreed to it. Well, I would have compromised and said that perhaps all of us could do it but my daughter. The boys are adult size, but she isn't and has allergy type issues. Sure enough, the day after the flu vaccine she threw up and had 101 fever. It was over in 24 hours. But that was my biggest fear.. She would react badly and I would be stuck trying to figure out what to do while he was overseas!!!

So how is he going to be enthusiastic about this agreement. He has all the plans. I'm not always against them, but I'm not always ENTHUSIASTIC about them either.. Also, how do you get enthusiastic when you have no thoughts or plans sometimes? Let us take retirement:

He wants to do locum tenems for 4 months out of the year which will pay for our living expenses for the year. It may be around here or may be somewhere else. We would live in the trailer somewhere. We would serve in the mission field for 4 months and travel for fun for 4 months. That is his plan.. My problem is this... I love home and community. I enjoy traveling, but then I have no support system. And what exactly am I supposed to do while he does locum tenems? Volunteer somewhere but then disappear at the end of 4 months??? But what do I want to do? I don't know.. I'm just terrified of being without community. But we've been talking about this since we were first married. It feels completely unfair of me to suddenlly back out of something he thought was a mutual plan we had agreed on. Sigh....

I know Dr. Harley says that everyone is prone to an affair. I think I have to disagree. Honestly, I've discovered what a rotten wife and mom I truly am. If I had my life to do over again, I would stay single. I would live in a very small one bedroom house. I would go teach/volunteer/ serve the community etc on my time and hours and then go to a quiet house where I have to serve NO ONE and just relax... If I want to clean the house, I would. If not, who cares!!! If I want to go help someone it is my choice on my timeline. There are not little people around 24/7 who need something. I have no interest in getting involved with anyone!!

I guess I am just selfish...

No you are not selfish, you are reacting to the years of things being miserable but at the same time you are afraid of what you have to do to turn this around. In other words you are human!

Good clip of Dr. Harley talking about how we all are pre-disposed to affairs.
Radio clip

[quote=living_well
No you are not selfish, you are reacting to the years of things being miserable but at the same time you are afraid of what you have to do to turn this around. In other words you are human! [/quote]

But I'm not miserable. I'm actually pretty happy most of the time. Everyone always notices how I'm always happy.

My husband is the nicest guy on the planet. I think so. Everyone else thinks so. If I can't live with him then there is no one I could live with!!! Honestly, some of you tell stories on here that I could not and would not put up with!

Listening to today's show and they are talking about financial negotiations. This is truly one area where we have never argued. I am just as much a saver as he is, maybe more. And I LOVE going shopping with him. He will go around finding clothes in different sizes for me. I will go in wanting one outfit and we'll find several and he will tell me to get them all. Of course, he has many more clothes on his side of the closet than I do ( perfectly organized as well.. really disgusting.. at least I'm hanging all of mine up now! Smile.

Some of us have stories on here about the struggles of living with a dishonest spouse. Would you put up with that?

About an affair..No. emotional dishonesty yes

I relistened to it.. ( must be recent, I've heard it before) and I'm just not sure I agree. That said, I have promised myself never to complain about my husband to anyone.When we started dating, I said it would be him or no one.. Which I suppose I violated here, but I just needed someone to talk to. And yes, I don't stay alone in a room with someone of the opposite sex. My husband wouldn't let me withdraw from choir. He told me I needed it for my sanity, but did like my idea of not being quite so faithful with it. So I went in to talk to my music minister and his wife and the wife had already left, so I just told him that I needed to talk to them both. The next Sunday I caught her by herself and started talking to her and he joined us. I told them about his " You care more about church than me comment" and that I offered to give up choir and Praise Team but that he wouldn't let me. That said, I really needed for them to know that I would be skipping quite a bit. ( I skipped the last 2 weeks since he was here. I will be here the next 2 since he is out of town.) They prayed with me for my marriage and told me to concentrate on that and they would welcome me whenever. I could sing Sunday morning whether or not I was there Wednesday or not sing at all,but that my marriage came first. Husband doesn't know I told them that, but I'm tired of living without support.

Why?

Why, what? Sorry. I don't understand the question.

Why would you put up with emotional dishonesty?

Probably because I can understand being reluctant to share what you truly feel with someone. I don't think I could forgive sleeping with someone else or the way some of the couples on here scream at each other. I get upset when my husband says through gritted teeth: Could you please have the boys close the bread! If he were to ever raise his voice at me... I just don't think I could handle that. Or disrespect. I had enough of my dad telling me I was stupid for thinking that way and seeing how he disrespected my mom. I just wouldn't marry someone like that. So I married a sweet, respectful guy. Does that make sense?

I guess that is what makes it hard. He is sweet. He has plans. They are not bad plans. He is a good man. I always give up because I'm not sure that I am right or that there is a right. Why should it be my way? Which I understand is the point of POJA for it to be win win. It will just be interesting. In so many ways we are alike: both first borns, both organized, both savers. So many times we come up with the exact figure to give to charity or to a cause. We both wrote down our choice for china patterns and it was the same one!! That happens A LOT. However, he is neat and I am messy. He is detail oriented to the extreme. ( Though everyone at my church and homeschool group thinks I am detail oriented. But they've never met my hubby.)

If you knew you married a sweet respectful guy, why have you been so scared to be open and honest with him? Don't blame your dad!

What if he thinks what I think is stupid? What if he wants to do something and I want to do something.. Then what? How do we resolve it? Then he might be unhappy. My goal in life has always been to make the people around me happy. And remember my radio question about honesty. I was emotionally dishonest long before I ever met him. In fact, that was part of the struggle. I wanted to make hubby happy but not make the music minister unhappy either. So at least I was honest with them. They had no idea how I felt either!!!

And about being honest with the music minister and his wife. I spent hours crying, writing out my thoughts, imagining conversations. That is actually what I spend a lot of time doing: imaging conversations in my head. But they were actually really, really nice about it. They were not disappointed in me and very supportive. Perhaps hubby won't be disappointed in me either..

Did you ever think that he could be happy making you happy? I do think this is your selfishness talking (that you disguise as serving). I don't think you do this intentionally or maliciously.

So what if he thinks what you think is stupid? Does that make it so? (NO) Why would you expect to be happy doing what he wants, but think he would be unhappy doing what you want? Do you not share goals? Can you not have reasonable discourse? Can you see your sweet respectful husband refusing to look for common ground? Would he crush you with his own ideas and disregard your own?

No, I guess not. It is just really scary. I don't know why, but it is.

So now I am selfish for not saying what I want.. Good grief. I just want to know how to do this exactly right.. That is what i HATE HATE HATE about parenting and marriage. I can't get it 100 percent correct no matter how hard I try. There isn't a magic formula and that is so incredibly frustrating which is why I should have stayed single. At least maybe I could get being single right...

NOBODY gets it 100% correct. Not even being single. People screw that up all the time.

I applaud you for starting to speak up with your husband. Don't let my little postings get in the way of that! I am imperfect, too! I am, however, wonderfully made.

And so are you.

The only person or entity who demands you be perfect is YOU. Which is great news, because you have complete control over that demand! You can free yourself from it. Bad news is, nobody else can.

Are you cheating? Your recent rants on singledom are red flags.

Oh my goodness, no!!! Who in the world would I cheat with??? I am here at home homeschooling my children. ( Though not much today. Boys have all outside classes now either online or at cc and youngest went with a friend on a homeschool field trip since 3 of hers are younger and her oldest is with mine at cc. So I am here or at church with once again my children!! Well today I did have my biopsy done.. So I was by myself for awhile but it wasn't fun.. Part of the reason I am in a bad mood. I have to wait a week to get the results... Seriously, I don't daydream about anyone other than hubby. And the singleness is about being ALONE and not answerable to anyone. I don't really have a desire to be with anyone. But don't worry. I could never break my kids hearts and my daydreams of singleness include not being a parent, either.. Wouldn't ever tell them that..

You could cheat with anyone who was (also) sick of their life as they made it and fantasized about something different.

Have you read the threads here about pastors cheating with parishioners? Choir directors with pastors?

Why would a biopsy take a week for results? I have only had two, but got both results within 24 hours. Are you seeking sympathy, a poor me, I had a biopsy, it could be something, hang on for a week and maybe you'll forget???

Medical peeps??? I only have my own experience to go on with the time for biopsy results.

That is what my doctor told me and what my friend who also had an endometrial biopsy said it took her as well. She said they would call me next Wednesday and if I hadn't heard by Thursday to call. What do you mean maybe you will forget??? That didn't make any sense. And this doctor is a sort of friend. They used to live across the street from us, she delivered my youngest and she and her husband(also an ob/gyn) are friends with my husband, also a doctor. So she would tell me if it were any faster..

I guess I just don't think that way as far as an affair goes. I honestly have never even considered one. I'm not sure why I would. I didn't sleep with anyone before I got married. I didn't trust anyone enough for one thing. No method of birth control is 100%. I didn't want to risk getting pregnant nor did I trust any guy enough to ever let that close. I can't imagine letting anyone else ever see me. I dated some guys, but we just kissed a couple of times. I just didn't trust them enough. I can't imagine trusting anyone other than my husband.. I mean someone who would sleep with a married lady would not be very trustworthy, would they??? I'm way too much of a control freak and I cannot imagine that a few minutes of pleasure ( if that.. can't imagine that someone who doesn't even know me or what I like could make me feel better than my husband!!!) being worth the horrible havoc it would cause. It is the reason I don't drink either. How do I know I wouldn't be an alcoholic??? Plus, who thinks being drunk and out of control would be fun. I like being in complete control.

CWMI is insinuating that you are using the biopsy to gain sympathy on this board, and that you are manipulating the week's waiting time to avoid answering her questions about whether you are planning to have an affair.

Oh.. well here: no, have no plans at all to have an affair. AS far as sympathy..yeah probably true. I've only told one person IRL.. So yes, it would be nice for people to know and pray. I just didn't want to worry anyone or have it get back to my kids until it is something to worry about. Yet here I am at 2:30 worrying.. Need to go back and reread Philipians... take everything to God, I know.. Off to watch the national news and try to go to sleep.

Good morning. Little pity party is over. I'm doing an Enhancing Your Marriage Bible study. The first few chapters are all about getting your own relationship correct with God first. Today was about motives in the heart and how what you think becomes what you are. I studied Cain and Abel. God warned Abel about his heart attitude but he wouldn't listen.

So.. I am a parent, just need to act like one. I do love my kids and it is funny, about the time you get them trained and you really like them they get ready to leave. My oldest is a senior and so sweet. He has changed so much in the last few years and will be more than ready to leave next summer. He's been doing the kids' laundry for years. He loaded the dishwasher without asking last night. He now gets and pays for his own haircut, makes his doctor appointments, takes himeself, etc. He is so much smarter than I am. His ACT was a 34.. Mine was just a 29. His freshman comp class is easy at the cc and he made a 101 on his first test in Spanish 3. Gotten A's on his first tests in AP Physics and Calc. He's doing well in AP Economics as well. Those online classes have been a godsend. He passed me in math and science a long time ago and our little local high school offers nothing like this.. Last year I tried to have him take his AP Chem test at our local school, but even though 22 were in the class she doubted any of them would take it. My friends with kids in honors say the kids get 2's on the exams and they aren't prepared well. So far he's gotten a 5 on AP stats and AP Gov and a 4 on his AP Chem.. But I sure will miss him.

Middle one is a good kid. He has a literature/history bent and HATES math. He also has a temper. That said, he has been working on it and he and I are not butting heads nearly as often this year. I'm beginning to see glimpses of maturity and think it will be even better when the oldest one leaves as he is always in his shadow.

Then there is my daughter.. So much like me. So social and musical. She makes friends wherever she goes. But she is exhausting and only 10. I would have been better I think if I were younger when I had her.. Oops.. thought life again. I had her when I had her.. God will give me the strength and grace..

Back to homeschooling and parenting. I'll be on a little more this morning then not again until noon. I'm leaving the computer on to see if my hubby can contact me.

It sounds like you have wonderful children, tiredwife. I smiled all the way through that post. Children are truly blessings from God, aren't they?

You seem like such a nice person. I truly am hoping for the bset for myou.

I was able to skype with him this morning. He smiled and said that he saw I sent him with some homework ( the letter and chapters I mentioned). He said he figured I would do something like that. So we'll see what he thinks after he reads it over the next 10 days. Well, off to teach my daughter..

TW45,
I just want to say that I appreciate how honest you have been on here. I homeschool our 4 kids, and my husband just retired from 20 yrs in the military (gone a lot...even when he was home he was working all the time). I understand why you are Tired Wife ! I am 44.

I have often dreamed of another life too...one without so much responsibility. Well, I nearly shot myself in the foot and got what I wanted. I had an affair. I nearly lost everything . Me, the sweet little Christian homeschool mom who would never do anything like that. I did it.

Now we are picking up the pieces, but most days I'm just haunted about how I ruined our lives.

I wish I had done a lot of things differently. I'm glad you are on this forum because you will see the hurt caused by selfish thinking like mine. You will firm up boundaries and fill love banks. You will stop love busting. You will affair-proof your marriage.

I just wanted to offer you encouragement as another homeschool mother. Many days I feel so much pressure...I see you do too.

3 more hours until the doctor's office opens.. They didn't call me with the results yesterday, so I will call them when they open. It has been 3 weeks since my abnormal results. I just want to know..then I can deal with it. I'm tired of running endless scenarious through my head. Between that and my spat with Melody I just couldn't sleep last night. I guess I will go get my room back in shape.. I just don't want to think about it anymore. That is what I hate. My brain will sometimes just think and think and think and I can't turn it off.

Ok first of all if you don't check the prayer board, the results were negative.

Now as I've been listening one thing that has struck me is that in some ways he has a lot of the women qualities and I have a lot of the men: honesty and openess and family committment and affection are his top 3 needs. He wants me integrated into his life in that he tells me EVERYTHING. He doesn't have rooms. I do. He checks with me about everything. If he is home, he wants me home. He notices EVERYTHING. He is the sock on the floor and glasses out bother me kind of guy like Joyce is.

He has no annoying habits. I have tons like biting my nails and leaving things out. His most annoying habit is that he is so perfect. He never loses his temper, always speaks nicely, fixes things before I even ask. I mean, good grief when I was gone with my daugher at a fine arts camp, he supercleaned the kitchen from top to bottom with toothpicks and toothbrushes, the stove, the oven, everything. It was absolutely spotless. Now he doesn't really ever complain about my messiness, though I know it bothers him. He says he knows that I have a lot going on so he can understand why. He does wish I would have the boys not do things like leave the bread open. But somehow when I come home and he has done something like that it makes me feel like a failure. I'm the one staying home. He shouldn't have to do the housework. But I can't do it correctly.

Ok.. another fault that I have is my emotions and perhaps I am like a guy in that respect. Whereas my husband has complete control of his emotions at all times and thinks cooly under pressure, I do not. It doesn't take much for me to get emotional. I try very hard to hide it from him because I know that he doesn't like it.

I am always 10 minutes early. I HATE being late. I mean I literatlly get completly unglued if I am late. Hubby always runs late and is always the last one ready. No one will die if he is late. I've learned to hide my irritation but with my children I am merciless and throw a huge temper tantrum.

On mission trips it is hard for me to stay cool when things happen. I hide it but like our handler disappeared with our passports and we needed to board the plane. My husband says getting upset will do nothing to help the situation. If we miss the flight, they will find us another. Don't worry. I am literarally about to get histerical.

If he knew how I was with the kids sometimes, he would be appalled. I've heard Dr. Harley talking about relaxation technique. Where do I find out more about that?

And how do I keep from being so thin skinned? If someone makes any criticism or a comment that I didn't do something well, I go into a tailspin. Now I try doubly hard to fix whatever I did wrong the next time, but it shouldn't make me feel so upset. I mean I should be glad that he cleaned the kitchen. Why does that make me feel like a failure????

I do not disrespect my husband nor he I. We have never called each other names like the clips they show. We don't do the independent behavior like they demonstrate on the show like I am going somewhere and I don't care what you say. He always tells me why he needs to do something and it sounds reasonable and so I say yes though I may not really want him to. So I need to be honest, so it isn't his fault if I haven't been honest. So far he has complied with any honest request I have made.

He will return tomorrow so we will talk about the ua stuff. But I need to get rid of annoying habits.

Thanks

Or another thing is how do I not beat myself up about things.. For example, went to see my husband's grandmother yesterday and I forgot to bring her diapers. Stupid. I should have put them in the car earlier in the day,but I didn't. So I am screaming at myself in the car this morning since I have to make a special trip to bring them to her because she only had 2 left.. I tell myself how stupid I am.. I try really hard not to do that when the kids are in the car as that really upsets them. "mom, relax. You aren't stupid. It is really no big deal."

That is what keeps me up at night as well. I replay conversations and realize how I shouldn't have made that comment or I should have kept my mouth shut or I should have said something but didn't. How do you keep yourself from thinking like that?

Yikes, TW! You're so hard on yourself!

Tell me - when you're replaying these actions in your day, how do you respond to yourself? Do you come up with a solution to prevent the action in the future, or do you just beat yourself up?

Can you accept and be at peace with the fact that your definition of a clean house and your husband's definition are two different things? If it isn't causing friction between the two of you, why are you making it an issue?

A little bit of both. I will replay the conversation( not just with my husband this is with anyone) and tell myself how stupid I am and then imagine 5 different scenarios where I could have done it better. But then it becomes a cycle and I can't turn my mind off. So I get up and turn the news on so my mind can stop the cycle and I can go to sleep.

No, I don't have peace about that. My peace would be if everyone in my life would be happy and I would never make a misake, but that is impossible. But I don't know HOW to be ok with that. I try to be super-organized and succeed most of the time. But like my son.. he got accepted to one of his universities, he made a 34 on the ACT, he cooks, does all the kids laundry and is a good student. But today I am worrying about his failings at cleaning the bathroom and a moral failing that if I had just been a better parent. If I had maybe done A, B or C he wouldn't have this problem. It is all my fault. Good grief. He has tons of things going for him, but I feel like a failure as a parent. Yikes, TW! You're so hard on yourself!

Tell me - when you're replaying these actions in your day, how do you respond to yourself? Do you come up with a solution to prevent the action in the future, or do you just beat yourself up?

Can you accept and be at peace with the fact that your definition of a clean house and your husband's definition are two different things? If it isn't causing friction between the two of you, why are you making it an issue?

[/quote]

You didn't give birth to robots, TW. You gave birth to humans. You can't program them to perfection. As a parent, you do your best and then hope for the best for them. It's not a moral failing to turn out a child who doesn't clean the bathroom to your liking. You should have seen the condition my son left his bathroom in when he left for college. But that's okay. He's bright and busy, and one day may figure out the function of a sink scrubber. If he doesn't...well, then, he doesn't. That's up to him. I'm okay with that.

You are very hard on yourself, and I fear that that is interfering with your enjoyment of other things in life. While you're anguishing over your son's bathroom-cleaning skills, life is marching right along. Do you really feel that it is so important that you will let other enjoyable experiences suffer?

Bathroom cleaning wasn't the moral failure. Hacking a way to override parental controls to view cheerleaders was.

On my good days, then I can easily acknowledge that. Even know I KNOW it is true, but it doesn't stop this nearly paniced feeling that I have. Yes, it causes me not to enjoy other things.

My husband is exactly the same way which is one of the reasons I hesitate to be honest about my feelings with him. Remember my example about the nurse that messed up and he took the blame for it. He thinks ANYTHING- accounting, front office, pa, nurses, etc that he is responsible for. So if he sees me unhappy he will know it is all his fault and feel guilty about that on top of everything else.

It also makes me really defensive. I try so hard to be correct that when my husband points out another way to do it, I look at it as a failure and react that way.

Tiredwife,

Moral failings as a mother include not feeding them or abusing them. Your hormonal teenage son seeking to break through parental controls to view cheerleaders does not equal a moral failing as a mother.

Do you think that perhaps the need for admiration from others as "the perfect mother/wife" is preventing you from a satisfying balance as a great mother and wife? I can't help but see that you are really be your own worst enemy in your expectations of perfection.

I'm sorry, TW. But DANG! he's a smart fellow, isn't he! LOL!

Would you like my sitch of just a few short years ago? When my then-18 yo thought it would be just fine to go to a graduation party, drink vodka, and then try to drive his best friend home? And exceed the speed limit, plow through the stop sign and pile into a telephone pole?

And then leave his car at the scene, run home and wake us up to give us the news? And then Mr. Bliss and I having to drive him BACK to the scene to turn him in to the Sheriff who was there, processing the scene. And having to follow the Sheriff's car (with DS in the Sheriff's back seat )back to the Sheriff's post to process our son. I won't spend time going through the whole court case and probation thing, I think you get the idea.

How would you like to deal with that, TW? DUI, leaving the scene? That's potential jail time, TW. That isn't figuring out how to get around parental controls on a computer - that's a poor decision that could have killed someone.

I think you're harder on those kids than you need to be. Just my thoughts.

This is you being hard on YOU. I wish I had an answer for you, but unfortunately you sound more like my H than myself. I see others pointing out another way to do something as something to consider, while it seems you see it as a threat.

Maybe you should try getting over yourself.

Maybe you could realize you don't know everything.

Maybe you don't hold the corner on 'correct'.

Maybe you are unteachable because of this.

Ok guys, I understand that I SHOULDN'T feel that way. But how do I stop? And I still can't find the relaxation techniques that might help my emotions when I feel out of control when something has gone wrong or off the plan. Believe me I wish I didn't feel that way. And many days I don't. But then some days I wake up mad. I mean REALLY mad. I have no idea why. Or sometimes I wake up with my heart pounding feeling scared to death. Once again, I have no idea why. It doesn't happen a ton, but maybe once a month or so.

Well... it seems we nailed down admiration as one of your top emotional needs!


It's easier to change your behavior than it is for you to change your feelings. Since you are a planner, it would probably be wise to plan for diversions from your plans, and what you will do if that happens. If one of the problems is emotional overload, plan to give yourself some time to gather your head and emotions... and reevaluate your plan from that point.

Failing a plan at a single point in carrying it out doesn't destroy the entire plan, but it means that you will have to realign from the point of failure and aim back at the goal.


As for your emotions at this time, remember how you ended up here. As you develop a plan to restore and maintain romantic love in your marriage, I'm sure you will find that your emotions will even out. And once those plans become habits... whoa Nelly, does it get better.

The only time failing is truly failing, is if you fail to learn from it, pick yourself up, and keep going.

You might benefit from some cognitive-behavioral therapy for you perfectionism and worry. An example would be the program at http://stresscenter.com. Changing your thoughts (which is a behavior within your control) will change your feelings. Your thoughts are habits that can be changed.

I believe Dr. Harley is considered (and considers himself to be) a Cognitive-behavioral psychologist. His methods for eliminating LB's (like AO's) are very much cog-behaviorially based.

The mantra "behaviors repeated beget habits, and habits repeated beget character" (or something like that) has helped me eliminate AO's, drinking, porn, and now I'm changing to a plant-based diet (for heart and overall health reasons).

It works, I believe on about a 3 month cycle (that's a generally agreed-upon time frame for the brain to accept changes in behaviors).

I have to say that anxiety seems to me to be a different kind of animal, but I would definitely look into it. I know a few people with anxiety who also exhibit a lot of behaviors that don't help anxiety at all: smoking, caffiene, television drama, negative thinking, blaming. I'm also coming to believe the American Diet (e.g. high fat content and chemical additives) is contributing greatly to the stress (not to mention heart disease, diabetes, and possibly dementia) in this country - hence the diet change for me.

I do believe in "locus of control."

opt

Had a situation over last weekend that we tried to do POJA. ( Which btw, when I gave him the article to read he said, but we already do this! Because he never makes a decision without asking me about it first. I'm just not always honest about how I feel. So here is the situation:

This past weekend our two boys had a youth retreat and so my husband had planned to do a special weekend with my daughter. That was before the crisis this summer when I found marriage builders. I suggested that my mom keep my daughter and WE go somewhere for the weekend. He still liked the original plan, but then thought of camping. That it would be a great time for the three of us to take a last rv camping trip for the season. He's been wanting to do that, but can't with the boys' school schedule. But then on the other hand, he was gone for a week and a half last month on a mission trip and will be gone for a week next month, so he was tempted to just stay home and get things done around the house..

So I made a list of the options: take my daughter to Beaver's Bend alone for a father/daughter weekend; for the 3 of us to go; for us to drop her at my mom's and have romantic weekend alone ( even reserved a hotel room), stay home but still have me drive halfway to have my mom take our daughter, or stay home all three of us. We went back and forth and I could tell he REALLY wanted to take out the trailer one last time. It will be next spring before we can take it again. I told him I really preferred the romantic getaway, but could see how we could go on dates the other weekends, but we won't be able to go camping because of various committments one of the days..

We kept going back and forth over what are you ENTHUSIASTIC about..what can you be ENTHUSIASTIC about.. Well, honestly he never even considered the weekend away with me.. it was never even close to his top choice.. He promised me he would take me on a date, so I said ok..

We decided Thursday afternoon and were up until 11:30 getting the trailer ready. We did have a good time. We went canoeing, hiking, horse back riding, played games. My husband and I played a hilarious game of badmitton while my daughter was off on the playground. I had a good time. ( Not so good, though cleaning the trailer today!)

We had great conversation: all weekend and the the 3 hour drive back and forth. My daughter listened some but got bored and watched a movie on her ipod. We did some recreational activities which we all enjoyed. We made love every night and sometimes in the morning. He cuddled with me and held my hand. We just were not alone.

I've been keeping track of his hours and activities since I've been on this site. We are averaging between 9-12 hours of ua each week. It wouldn't be this much if I wasn't planning some kind of fun activity for the two of us. He is averaging between 27 and 32 hours of family commitment time where we are all together doing things or he is doing something with one child: building a computer with oldest, teaching middle one how to drive, watching the debate and talking it over with middle one, feeding the catfish and taking a walk with my daughter.

To him family is all. I'm not sure he understands what is so important about UA...and I wonder if I should even worry about it. This past week he spent 44 hours at work Monday-Thursday at noon. A regular week has him putting in 60 hours or so. I'll tell ou what a call weekend week is like later.

So basically his work week looks like this: 56 hours of sleeping ( bed at 9 wake up at 4:30/5ish), 12 hour days ( leave at 6 get back at 6 4 days out of the week. Plus another half day of 6 hours. Plus add extra for one call day so around 60 hours a week. 30 hours with the kids 10 hours with me. Add 7 hours each week for eating breakfast/quiet time/exercise, etc. He has spend around 4 hours doing work for his mission trips. And that is just about his 168 hour week.

He is spending 40 hours a week with us just not with me alone. I know he is thinking what would the extra hours with me be accomplishing if he is talking to me all the time ( he does. He is much, much more open than I am and I know EVERYTHING that goes on. Remember honesty and openess are his top need.) and we are making love and having affection. What is missing is recreational companionship which we typically only do on a family camping trip or something..

Anyway, did I handle the POJA correctly. To be honest, the only thing I was enthusiastic about was the romantic weekend away. The default position would have been staying home... To be honest, the camping appealed to me more than staying home if I couldn't have a weekend with just him. At least I was getting out of this house and having fun.

So.. did I handle it correctly?

I also wanted to check since all of you advised me to drop activities.. But as an extrovert and now basically only teaching 1 instead of 3, I am bored and lonely. So:

Monday
8-12 Teach my daughter while boys are gone at school, though even this isn't straight teaching. She has a lot more independent work now..so maybe 2 hours of instruction.

12-6 Do housework, help my older boys if they need it. Like yesterday I was one of the people that reviewed my son's essay for his dual credit class at the cc. I talked over PSAT strategies with my oldest. Planned out my co-op class

6:30-8 Drove my daughter and her friend to a neighboring town for orchestra. My husband had meetings tonight, so it was a good day for me to do this. Ran my errands. I have a friend that I carpool with so I don't always have to do this.

So no adult interaction today other than the clerk at Mardels.

Tuesday

8-1:30 Supervise all three children's school as needed with the main teaching with my daughter
1:30-4:30 Drive with my daughter to a music prep school an hour away for violin lessons and back home.

Adult time is with my husband whenever he gets home.

Wed[b]nesday
[/b]8-12 Homeschool co-op. I do see adults here, but mainly I am teaching music to 4yo, 5yo, a 1st/2nd class and 4th grade recorder.

1-3 Home supervising school.

3- Take daughter to piano and set up for children's choir at 4:30

4:30-5:15 Teach children's choir. I do have an adult helper, but mainly 20 kids ages 1st-5th.

Now I have been going home lately. But when I do that means again my main interaction is with my husband. Otherwise I have Praise Team and Adult choir with other adults 6:30-8.

Thursday

I take my middle son and a friend to their history/literature co-op at 10am. ( My friend brings them home at 5.) Other than that I am teaching youngest and doing housework/financial stuff. So no adult interaction today.

Friday
Home all day teaching/supervising like Monday.

Saturday
Chores around with family.

Sunday
Sunday School and church- adult interaction

So other than my husband the only adults I see is Sunday morning, Wednesday morning..sort of and then Wednesday night if I go.

Do the rest of you really only have that much interaction with other adults?? It feels so claustrophobic to me. I like people.

"Adult time" is a risk in a good marriage, and a disaster in a weakened marriage.




http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5069_qa.html

Once a week is completely normal for someone who isn't employed and has kids/spouse. I am also a stay at home mother and usually 'interact' with others once a week with my toddler group on Fridays, that's it.

If you choose to homeschool rather than work during the day then it is only natural that you are greatly limiting your interaction with other adults on a daily basis. I admit, I really like to spend time with other women (which is why I go to the mother's group) but there isn't enough hours in the day to go out shopping with the girls when I can spend it with my husband.

I understand you like homeschooling and obviously feel a great benefit to it for your children, but are you becoming resentful of the fact that it keeps you home-bound in that sense?

Yes, I am beginning to resent it and am ready to be done. I am especially resentful of my daughter. (She is 10.) Unlike my sons, she wasn't planned. I was on birth control pills and yes, I took them regularly. If I didn't have her, I would pretty much be done with homeschooling. Instead, I have 8 more years... That feels like eternity. Our ps is not an option. There are gang fights. The average ACT score is 19.9. My oldest made a 34. Although they offer a few AP classes, very few take the tests. They don't prepare them well. Out of the 34 that took AP exams only 7 of them made a 3 or higher. My oldest has made a 5 on AP stats, 5 on AP Gov and a 4 on AP Chem. He is taking AP Economics, AP Physics and AP Calc this year. Of that only AP Calc is offered at the local school and they don't do well on the exam. Drugs and fighting among the races is rampant. Lots of pregnancy. Just don't think I can send her there. There is one private school that offers strings and voice/choir. However, it costs $6,500 a year and I don't know that it would offer that much more than what I can and good grief.. I paid that much for a year at Baylor when I attended..

I guess part of it is that growing up and in college and early marriage I was in choirs, show choirs and drama. I'm was used to being with people 24/7.. Then I had the summer to kind of recoop and recharge.

I would suggest looking for a style of homeschooling that puts more of the work on her and less on you! At 10 I can understand she still needs you for things, but it shouldn't be long before she should be able to take the lead in her education, researching careers and college requirements and deciding what she needs to do in order to make that possible, then doing it.

At this point, is your husband on board with this program? Is he dropping his activities, too, to focus on your marriage and finding enjoyable interaction with you?

If he is not, then THAT is the problem that needs to get fixed ASAP.

If he has read this site, he should know the answer to that. Have you sent him the articles on this site? If he reads them and then rebuts them, or still believes it is unnecessary, then I would suggest contacting Dr. Harley on his radio show for suggestions.

Don't delay this. You are too tired to put this off for much longer. It will only get worse.

[quote=markos
At this point, is your husband on board with this program? Is he dropping his activities, too, to focus on your marriage and finding enjoyable interaction with you?

If he is not, then THAT is the problem that needs to get fixed ASAP. [/quote]

What activities. He goes to work and comes home and spend time with the kids and doing chores. He is more of an introvert and lives for family time. We enjoy our time together. We don't fight. On the show on depression, it said to rank your happiness scale for every hour of the day. My highest rankings were when he was home. I forget all my problems and we have a great time. It was also high for choir. It was low when I was by myself/with whiny kids that complain about doing math!!

He says I am meeting his needs. The are 1. Openess/honesty 2. Affection 3 Family Commitment 4. sex 5. Attractive spouse.

Do the two of you stay in contact during the day? I know that for my wife it is mandatory that we stay in as much contact as possible. We IM all the time, all day long.

Ok, you guys have answered to keep my non outside activity thing going.. But no one addressed if I POJA correctly our options for last weekend.

I believe that some of you said that Steve was good at helping men with career counseling/changes? How do you know that? When I look on the site it says that 90 percent of his work is with couples dealing with infidelity. If hubby sees that he will be very confused about why I would like for him to call. There are several things that have happened at the office that have multiplied his stress and I have an opening as he is asking me what he should do. I have absolutely no idea. I had thought about having him brainstorm what parts of his job he loves (operating, mission work, most patients) and what part he hates ( being on call, dealing with egos and stupid hospital politics, insurance regulations, paperwork, being held responsible for whatever anyone in your sphere of influence does wrong: partners, pa, business office etc I mean think about it if the business office does something wrong or codes something incorrectly then the buck stops with him, if the pa does something wrong-the buck stops with him etc So he tries to micromanage/supervise it all but there are not enough hours in the day...)

So is it Steve or is it his father that did all the career counseling and has his father pretty much retired from everything but radio?

I have personal experience with Steve on a person's work. When we started coaching with him, my H was insisting that he couldn't commit to the 15 hours of UA time per week because of his job. He simply would not be able to avoid travel and functions. So Steve told him to change jobs, to one that would not interfere with our marriage.

He was about four months into the new job when he started trying to slip travel and functions back in, it's detailed in my thread Duped. No more travel, no more parties without me now. Sometimes it takes a LOT of persistence to get rid of the stuff that's killing your marriage.

Anyone else have any experience?

On a side note, oldest got accepted to his 1st choice college witha 15,000 a year merit scholarship!!! We are celebrating around here!!!

Uh, you're welcome?

sorry.. Of course, thanks!!! But yours did seem to be more marriage counseling ( which we may need as well but for now I'm interested in career counseling)

tw - I think you might have misunderstood. Steve Harley is not a careers counsellor or coach, in the way that specialists carve out this niche.

All the Harleys deal with jobs and careers in so far as they impact on the marriage. Their impact is very likely to be felt on UA time, but also on travel and on family finances (and no doubt in other areas).

The MB coaches look at ENs and also at UA time, and advise spouses on how to adapt their careers to maximise and serve their marriages, and not the other way around. Dr Harley talks about his own career change, made when he and Mrs Harley were about to be married (or were about to have kids - I forget which). He opted for a career change from engineering (I think) to psychology, because it would be more compatible with the couple's goals.

In HNHN he discusses a couple who need more money for their growing family but who also wanted the wife to be a SAHM. Their solution was for the wife to get a job for a couple of years while the husband improved his skills. He forbids couples from having travelling jobs unless they can travel together at all times, and he suggests that couple set up a business where they can work together if it is easy for one spouse to hide an affair via workplace communications.

And so on. Careers are central to marriages and thus MB, but they are not what the Harleys coach in, as such. They give advice and provide accountability for weight loss, too, to meet the ENs of attractiveness and RC, but people do not go to them as diet experts. There are other people whose expertise is diet.

In your case, the career is a problem in your marriage, so coaching with Steve is precisely what you need.

But dh is depressed about his job AGAIN mainly because of 2 new crisis (sp?) at his job. He doesn't know what else he could do other than find a new practice. But being a practicing orthopaedic surgeon means call which is what he hates... So he needs someone to help him think outside the box.

How about teaching in so far as at a medical school?

Well, I don't know that I would pay Steve Harley $200 per hour to provide specialised career advice in a field (surgery) in which he is not an expert. If your H really does need specialised advice he could go to a specialist, but he must know by now that his career must serve his marriage. That means no solo travel and hours that allow him to make UA time with you. Therefore, any help that a specialist gives must be be filtered through MB requirements.

tc made an excellent suggestion. What do you think of that? What would your H say?

Are there no circumstances under which surgeons could work regular hours? I think that here in the UK, private practice would be much more likely to involve elective, and therefore planned, surgery. It is our National Health Service that deals with almost all emergencies, and where doctors would need to be on call. I know that your system is all private, but aren't there clinics for specific needs - like cosmetic surgery? How often is that an emergency? Could he work in a specialist clinic?

Is your H thinking outside the box for himself, and are you helping him?

I seem to remember that Dr harley once ran a chain of addiction clinics. Is is from his involvement with addiction that he developed his approach to infidelity.

Is there a similar approach that your H could take - away from hands-on surgery and into management?

And with his career move, you might be able to move living areas as well, and perhaps entrust your daughter to a school, since you seem to dislike doing home education now. You would then be less burned out with family commitment.

There could be many positives to a career move.

But I am still uncertain about how to get him to call when the website says 90 percent of his cases involve infidelity and that isn't our problem!! He isn't going to understand.

then tell him what the problem is. Is that what you're having issues with? How to be honest with your husband?

Ok so I say this:

You have been so unhappy with your job and it making you so stressful. I think you need someone to help you think out of the box. Here is a person you can call.


So.. he looks at the page and says this person does marriage counseling for couples that have been unfaithful.

Do you see why he would be confused???

But if he reads some of the articles here, he'll see how useful all of the information is. I've never had an affair & I'm all for signing up for this program.

I think people balk at it because they don't want to make any huge changes - job with no travel, etc OR they don't want to get honest.

How about something like:

"Honey, I want us both to be blissfully happy in our marriage. I think to do that, there are some aspects of our marriage that could use some attention. We've tried our best on our own but there is an expert that I'd love to try by the name of Dr. Harley. Would you be willing to give him a call with me?"

That's really what you want right? For both of you to be happy in your marriage? Let Dr. Harley address the work issue in how it affects the marriage. Your job should be to get your H onboard with MB.

Honestly, it isn't the work issue exactly but it makes Him SO unhappy (like when he had to work so much this past week on top of the 2 crisis) I will post how he spent his time the past month. The first week I didn't keep track as closely. He was happy the first 3 weeks but not the 4th week.

Week 1 Sept. 30 (Sketchy, didn�t write down the details. UA time include the camping by the pond I talked about..)
Work 57 hours
Family 18 hours
UA time 12.5
Mission work 3
Errands 2
Sleep- around 49 hours but didn�t write down actual details
Total 141.5

Week 2 Oct 8th ( off from Thurs middle afternoon through weekend, took camping trip with me my daughter. Boys were at youth retreat. This was the POJA I talked about earlier that no one ever gave me any advice about.)
Work 46 hours
Sleep 46 hours
Family 36 hours
Packing Trailer- 7 hours
UA time 5 1/2
Individual Chores- 5
Getti ng ready 4
Church- 3
MASH/Dinner 2
Computer 2
Mission 1
Total: 157.5


Week 3 Oct 15th
Work 52 hours
Sleep 52 hours
Family 15 hours
Individual Chores 14 hours
UA time 9 1/2hours
Getting ready( shower, breakfast, quiet time) 7 hours
Time with relatives 5 hours ( Uncle was in the hospital, cousin and family stayed with us)
Church 3 � hours
Computer 2 hours
Dinner/Mash 2 hours
Running Errands 2 hours
Mission Work 1hours
Around 165 hours

Oct 22nd ( on call over the weekend)
Work 82 hours
Sleep 49 hours
Family 10 hours
Getting ready ( shower, breakfast, quiet time) 5 hours
UA time- 5 hours
Errands 2 hours
Mission work- 2hours
Chores- 2 hours
MASH/Dinner 1 �
Computer- 1hour
Relatives � hour
Total 163 hours



To me, other than the on call week, it is more a matter of being intentional with his time.

I did e-mail Dr. Harley yesterday with this question. I mean he meets my needs: gives me affection, great sex now, and conversation. He has always been transparent with me. He doesn't love bust: doesn't get angry or give me disrespectful judgements or whatever. If you add up the time of UA and family as well as individual chores, he is home A LOT with the exception of when he is on call once a month. ( This past weekend was a bad one. They aren't always, you just don't know. He basically worked 13 hours each day or more FRi, Sat and Sun) He loves me and says there will be plenty of time for us to be alone when the kids are gone in 8 years.

That's strange about the on call. I have a few friends that does what your husband does and they work in a clinic and schedule their surgeries. They don't work Fri through Sun because they don't want to do surgeries on those days so they can stay at home with family and play golf. They also work from 7 am to 5 pm as they control their surgery schedule.

what does he say when you tell him waiting 8 years to spend more time with him does not work for you? Life is unpredictable--none of us are guaranteed we will still be here in 8 years. It sounds like he is not hearing how unhappy you are? Would he be surprised if he read your thread posts?

I hope you would consider talking on the show to Dr. and Mrs. Harley. I think the folks who do that do get more help because of the ability to have a discussion with them (instead of just them answering your email on the show).

Another option would be for you to schedule a phone counseling appointment with Steve Harley for yourself, where you explain what your issues are, then he helps you figure out how to present phone coaching to your husband. I haven't done that, but have heard on the forum that that works well.

I hear you telling us, it's not a marriage problem, it's a career problem. But I think you need to acknowledge that it IS a marriage problem for you. You were just a bit dismissive (unintentionally I'm sure) of CWMI's response a few days ago, but I think you might have more success if you are totally honest with yourself that the way things are isn't working for you.

I have been a physician for 30 years and have seen the toll that "usual" physician hours can take on marriages. But different hours are possible, thinking outside the box. We (mostly) all hate call, but it has to be done, people break bones at unpredictable hours. But fewer office hours, fewer surgery hours, can be done.

What was his response to the info you sent with him on his mission trip weeks ago? (maybe you covered it already, sorry if I missed it)

Boy, my husband would love that!!!! But here in the states in order to operate in a hospital you must take call. Once you get to be 60 they allow you to stop taking call and you may still use their facilities. I wonder who does all the trauma that comes in for your friends? He had a couple of infected total joints, a couple of car wreck victims and elderly ladies who fell and broke their hips. Believe me, he schedules NOTHING on the weekends. But if he is on call and they come in, he must go. Like I said, there are some weekends where he gets to stay home and do a few calls over the telephone of things that can wait to be seen on Monday, but it wasn't one of those weekends.

I'm not really unhappy now that he is meeting my emotional needs better. The only thing is I would like for us to have fun. He said he thought that the 15 hours was unreasonable. He thought we already did POJA but now understands it was because I wasn't always honest about how I felt about something. I've shared my fears about his retirement plans and he has been adjusting his ideas. He has also asked me about several things to see if I really feel the way he thought I did.

We have been making love a lot more often and with more variety.

He just doesn't think doing fun things every week is appropriate when there is so much that needs to be done around here and he only has a few more years with the kids. He is freaking out about our oldest being gone in 6 months. He has already planned a special trip for the two of them and has a special trip to a Civil War event with middle one. Family is all to him...

My pastor doesn't think 15 hours is reasonable. My daughter didn't understand why I wasn't happy about missing a date. "MOM, you have been going out on dates A LOT!!!" You see before marriage builders we went out maybe once a quarter, so the 4 times we've gone out in the last 8 weeks is a lot to my husband and my kids. I feel like the unreasonable one...

I just sent the Harleys my phone number if they want to talk with me.

His schedule is this: clinic on Mondays 8-5. 4 or 5 surgeries on Tuesday. 4 or 5 suregeries on Wednesday. If he is on call on the weekend, then he has clinic 8-12 on Thursday and takes the afternoon off. ( That is once a month) Otherwise he has clinic from 8-5 on thursday and has Friday off.

He has to be on call once each during a week day with the exception of the week where he is on call on the weekend.

What the exact hours he works are not that important.

Are you happy with the way things are?

If yes, the problem is solved. If no, then it doesn't matter if your pastor, if your daughter, feel that you should be happy with whatever hours you get. What matters is, are you happy? Are you in love?

And Dr. Harley would not recommend he neglect time with your children. I believe he recommends priority of 15 hours with your spouse, UA time, and 15 hours family time.

[quote=tiredwife45] and has Friday off.
[quote=tiredwife45]

Fridays off! That is a huge one. What are your plans for this Friday?

You need to also tell him what effect this is having on you. That will help him to see why his job is a marriage issue.

Absolutely nothing. I wanted to sit down and plan this week with him on Sunday, but since he didn't get home until nearly 9 completely exhausted, I didn't. I will bring up AGAIN, what are we going to do fun this week sweetie ( with a big smile on my face!)? That is one thing I will ask the Harleys is that he has no recreation outlets with the exception of traveling and/or camping with the kids. That is his fun. I'll pick something from the list to suggest.. Friday night he and the boys will be at the football game where he is team doc. Saturday and Sunday are open as well this weekend, so I guess it doesn't have to be Friday.. I have no plans.

Plus, he has all of next week off. He has plans to bushhog the place, start repainting the fence and pick up the tons of limbs we have on our 50 acres ( heavily wooded) and has invited anyone that wants to come to go the lake on the boat. (Which means my daughter will come.. Boys will have schoolwork or class.) Once again I will try to negotiate a fun activity for just the two of us!!

BTW I am going to be a caller in a couple of weeks. Joyce said I have the honor of sending them the longest e-mail they have ever received. ( Good thing I only sent her the one I edited...the first one was 10 pages!!!) She was excited to have someone with a couple with a good relationship on that needed to be tweaked. And see that is just it. I like my husband. I enjoy being around him. He is the sweetest man on the planet and a hard worker. I would just like to see alittle more of him and be a higher priority than the kids!!!

That is so exciting for you! Let us know when you're on.

And thinking outside the box.... schedule something fun for just the 2 of you for Friday, Saturday AND Sunday. Maybe ask him what he'd like to do, just the 2 of you. Maybe you can get more buy in from him if he's suggesting it?

And I would suggest taking "a little" out of this sentence. "I would just like to see alittle more of him". You want to spend more time together. I still think he doesn't get it if he invited everyone over to go on the boat, without checking with you? I would think you'd want to aim for scheduling your hours together before things like that get decided, and POJA in deciding that. Are you enthusiastic about everyone coming over on the weekend?

Good luck!

I'll ask, but he would see Friday, Saturday and Sunday as excessive. He would think we were neglecting the kids. Whenever I ask him, he has no suggestions. What he wants is to stay home. That was his qualifier last time we did something.. So I set up the tent at the back of the pond. ( Couldnt see the house.(We made somemores and talked. It was great. He loved camping in the tent. However, his comment was, "I should have been doing this with the kids all these years..." Sigh.. He is SO kid focused. I know a lot of moms would LOVE for their husbands to be so concerned/involved with their kids. AHH.. scheduling. I have been unable to get him to schedule our weeks.. Yes, I keep telling him we need to be intentional.

No one is coming over this weekend. At some point during his week off he wants to take the boat out for a day. No one is coming over. He will just take me and whatever kid wants to go. I will try to pursuade him to just take me. But my husband and kids are making me feel like the evil wife that wants to keep daddy away from his kids!!

Tw, I think you need to stress much more honestly how you feel.

Your husband is a nice guy. He will listen to RADICAL honesty!

All this 'can we spend a LITTLE more time together' isn't radically honest. Cause it sounds like you're happy with your meal and just want seconds.

How do you REALLY feel when logs and chores and kids and party guests and football is more of a priority than YOU?

HONESTLY?

Give your feelings to us full pelt.

But there are 16 hours that you are likely to be awake each of those days. There would be time for an activity with the kids AND UA time as a couple.

Yes, I will do that except I don't have a clue what you mean about party guests. We never have anyone over. He just wants me and the kids not anyone else. ( I'm the social butterfly that misses interacting with people, especially since yall made me give up most outside activities!!!! Right now I talk to other adults on Sunday morning! and Wednesday nights when I go which is about 1/2 the time now.)

Several situations at work. They will be losing a partner and call has to be redone now. They are having an emergency meeting today. He didn't get home until 9 after he got an extra case added that this partner was supposed to do. He left at 5:30 this morning. He looks so incredibly tired. I don't want to add to the stress... It wasn't the right time last night or this morning. He's on call tomorrow and I forgot that he DOESNT have Friday off because he is taking all next week off for vacation and the next week off for a mission trip. So I'll talk to him on Saturday. I'll just force him to plan out his week off WITH me...but only after he gets a good night sleep maybe Friday night.

Frankly, it sounds like he needs to give up the mission stuff that takes up entire weeks. If he's so busy and overwhelmed, it's an obvious first thing to go. He can return to it when you no longer have kids living at home. Maybe.

tired, folks asked you to consider planning 2 hours a day with your H, and if it took giving up some outside activities, so be it. The idea is to replace things with stuff with your H that you enjoy even more, to make is sustainable. And then you may well find that you still have time to do other things in the week, too, especially with the schedule your H has.

Yes, but here I sit... I'm BORED!!! Daughter is at the grandparents until Monday. This afternoon I am starting to take everything out of her room and get it reorganized and clutter free. I'm not really excited about this, but oh well. I'm just waiting until I can add back activities.. Honestly not sure what else I should be doing. But what I HATE is feeling like a puppy dog just waiting until dh gets home.. I HATE that feeling. I've always been so independent. I am really at a loss right now. I don't know that dh likes me being that needy. ( Oh sorry just realized I've been using the dh which means dear hubby for those that don't know. That is an abbreviation everyone uses on my homeschool boards..)

We use that here, too. I'm still thinking that you may be focusing your efforts in ways that are making you sad but not contributing to the change you are making in your marriage. What is it that you would be doing that you are not today?

Ok, I'm not sure I'm understanding what you are asking: focusing efforts in ways that are making you sad but not contributing to the change you are making in your marriage... Can you explain or give me an example. I'm not sure what this means.

What is it that you would be doing that you are not today? Well, I could be on the transition team at church planning what direction the church should go and talking with the adults there.

I could be working with the local organization that helps out families that are homeless. This would feel like something God would like and feels productive. I was starting to organize our church's involvment with this when this summer hit and backed off. It is a neat program offering job training and or help with schooling and their kids and providing them a place to stay and meals. It is well done and people have to be willing to help themselves and must meet some goals set out.

I could be coming up with songs that my youth sticks group would do for the service: cool ways to present the gospel. All ages LOVED their presentations and the teens involved like it as well. They've asked me when we are going to do it again.. I've told them I don't know.

I would like to teach a financial course to the teens at church as well.. I could keep going. There are tons of things I could do that would be fun and creative.. I just don't find housework creative or exciting... Sorry! I love working with people.

Where is your husband in this list of things to do?

What do you mean? I thought she asked what "I" wanted to do...

His list would include things like organizing the safe ( it is a mess and has 15 years of tax statements and negatives and such), picking up limbs from our 50 acres and having a bonfire with the limbs, painting the metal fence around our place that includes stripping, priming and painting..

Now if you are talking about what we could do together then it would be things like going to Christian Concerts, hiking, camping, possibly bowling or putt putt golf. He just seems to think doing that kind of thing is superfulous. I mean he enjoys them, but aren't useful... Does that make sense?

Is that what you mean by that question??

I guess housecleaning and doing things around the house doesn't make me feel like I'm contributing to the world or making it a better place.

Sorry I was unclear. You are saying that you are sad doing housework today. But you are saying that's what you're doing because that's what the board told you to do. If I understand correctly, folks are asking you to consider stepping back for this season, while you're working on your marriage, on managing so many things that take a great deal of your time in the evenings. I think you could do any of those things you listed in manageable amounts during the day, on days like today, and still leave a bulk of time for your H and family in the evenings. I think as you get your marriage back on track, you will find ways to add back time outside the home in ways that don't interfere with your marriage. Does that make more sense? What do you think?

Oh... I already did that. One thing my husband wanted was for me to be home when he was home. I only did things during the day when he was gone with the exception of Wednesday nights... I always tried to be home when he was home. I thought the forum was saying I shouldn't be doing that...

Also they told me I should give up praise team and choir on Wednesday nights.. I offered that to him as a birthday present and he refused to accept it. That said, I haven't been going about 1/2 the time and staying home.. However, most of the time he has had something else to do during that time so it has felt like a waste.

What I mean by my question is, where is your husband in the things you desire to do? Where are the plans for things that will draw you closer and give you a more satisfying marriage?

I am not a fan of housework, either. Feeling your pain!

Oh.. if I could dream.. We would find a mission to do together. That would be awesome. I'm really wishing I could go with him in a couple of weeks. We went together last May and it was PERFECT. For the first time we had a mission we could both do: he was doing surgery and I was on the prayer team in the hospital. We also got to go play and minister to orphans which we both loved. He has been asked to take a bigger role in this organization as the leader is wanting to retire. We will all go as a family in May. ( Generally this group goes in November and May)

That was one reason I backed off all things church and even the homeless shelter. I'm tired of doing things like that by myself. To be honest, I decided I wouldn't do anything else until we could do it together. I thought we would be teaching Sunday School together or leading the youth together or something like that. But not with his job.. So now I am lost.. If I can't do it without him, then I can't do it...

Once the music minister at the time asked my husband to be in the musical. He and I played a husband and wife and sang a duet together. HEAVEN. I told my husband that was the best Christmas present he has ever given me. My husband is actually pretty musical as well. It was funny, though. I played a woman who got pregnant by accident when her husband was out of a job. Shortly after this musical I accidently got pregnant with my daughter.. The church found it very funny!!!

Also, I already keep the house neat ( being messy is a love buster to him). I'm giving him backrubs and head rubs every day. I'm listening actively and giving feedback to his venting about work situations. He has me praying for his day with him every morning before we leave ( We hug and I pray for his patients for the day or whatever he has on his agenda.) I have lost 15 pounds!!!! I'm buying some new lingerie and clothes on Friday as I am a size smaller now!!! I've been exercising every day which he finds VERY sexy! I've planned 4 different dates for us over the past couple of months. I have several things we could do this coming week, but don't have any idea if he will want to. I'm not sure what else to do! I mean I've addressed the two things he mentioned on his EN questionnaire: domestic support and attractive wife.

I guess I'm like my husband in that I don't like sitting around either. ( Unless it is cuddling with him!!) Plus, I like cycles. I like to be REALLY busy for a couple of months and then have a month to declutter, get organized and recharged and then get busy again. But I've had that time and now I feel restless.

MB doesn't say don't do anything without your spouse. You listed a number of things you could do in small doses, right?

Well... As of the time he left he had 6 surgeries today ( was on call yesterday) and then will have the football game. And then he called me yesterday to tell me that he is having a colonoscopy on Monday.. Turns out he has been bleeding so he called a doc friend of his who thought he should check it out and had an opening. But that means he will be stuck at the house "cleaning out his system" on Sunday and will be out of commission on Monday.. Before this I had made a list of the responsibilities I have next week. I have gotten out of some of them ( not teaching at the co-op, cancelled violin) and could have my oldest drive to some of them instead of me. I made a list of things I would like to accomplish next week as well on the top of which is go on a couple of dates! I guess we'll talk about it tomorrow morning.. It will be interesting to see his reaction when I try to POJA because although he says we do that we only do that for major purchases or decisions. For his weeks off he tends to make his own schedule and expect me to join him. Smile.. Not this time. Poor guy got home after 9 again last night looking/sounding like he is at the end of his rope. He is looking forward to next week...

Ok.. I am starting to freak out about being on the show Monday.. I don't know if I can do it... Hubby would not be happy if he knew.. Just tell me to stay strong and do it.

Stay strong and do it!

Seriously, why are you nervous? Tell yourself that you will be talking to a learned friend who has nothing but the best for your marriage in mind. You will love Dr. H and Joyce.

Thanks.. Just nervous my husband would find out I suppose..

His week off was a disaster.. We woke up to find that the 100 year old grandmother that we take care of ( she's in assisted living) was taken to the er and eventually on to the emergency room... So my inlaws decided to drive up for the day on Sunday. The colonoscopy was Monday and Yeah everything was normal.

So I was all excited about our date Tuesday afternoon. We had thought dinner and a movie but after seeing the plugged in review of Flight decided that wasn't a good option. So I suggested a picnic lunch at a local park. So he spent the morning picking up the medical supplies for his mission trip and we met at the park.... To which we ate lunch and walked around the park. Then he hurried home so he could cut down the tree and get the hay from a neighbors before it got dark.... I got less than an hour.

I don't give up hope. I gave up teaching my class Wednesday morning, but the kids still would be at the co-op or community college so we had the entire morning to ourselves. Right?? WRONG. He had a financial planner call and so the three of us were on the phone looking over our finances and I'm pulling documents we need and such and as soon as that ends a roofer comes that my husband has called since our roof is 20 years old and we need a new one... But then????

Sigh...

Tired, I have to believe that you and your H are fairly affluent. Have the two of you considered hiring out these chores? Your H is a surgeon, for crying out loud! Can you not afford a yard man?

(I already know your answer; it's time for your H to look at having someone do this work. And you're going to need to bring this up to him.)

He wouldn't ever hire anyone. He enjoys doing it. I think it is his recreational activity.. He has fixed our freezer, washer and dryer, dishwasher, refrigerator, etc He wired our shop for electricity, painted several rooms of our house on the inside, designed and created/installed a sprinkler system for our big vegetable garden as well as our orchard. He wants to learn how to make furniture. He wants to make a bike path through our place. He has a spot by the creek in the back of our place where there is a giant pine tree that he wants to clear out a tent pad...

If something is broken, he must fix it. I am not kidding that a couple of weeks ago he noticed at 5 am or so that the sink wasn't working properly and so in his work clothes was under the sink, taking it apart and getting it to run correctly!!!! The vacuum cleaner broke the week that he was on county call for the weekend and I didn't tell him until the next weekend because I knew that if I told him, even if it was 10pm, he would want to get it fixed for me.

We are frugal. We drove our old Honda accord for 20 years. He isn't a typical doctor. When we replace a car or a big appliance we must do several months of research, talk to 4 or 5 experts, then figure out the cheapest way to buy it. I kid you not.. Then he will still question himself about whether or not he made the best decision or the best deal... Sigh... No one ever makes more careful decisions than he does.

His decision making sounds like a frugal, wise man.
The problem is not following the POJA.

You will receive good advice from the radio show.

Thanks HDW!! I agree. I love the fact that he is frugal. I love that he is hard working. I hear all the wives moaning at church about how their husbands just want to sit on the couch and watch football all weekend.

Thanks so much to everyone here for just letting me share. I'm lonely here now that I've dropped my activities so it is nice to talk to someone about this. ( Not that I would have ever shared any of this with anyone I actually know in real life!!)

I'm curious in what direction the conversation will go.. Here was the short version of my question:
Dear Dr. Harley,



Short version of question: Should I worry about UA time when we have a good relationship? He has a different paradigm of what marriage is and should be and feels the family as a whole is more important. He fulfills my EN with the exception of having fun, which he thinks is not really important. He does not have any love busters. He listens to me, shows me affection, is transparent and talks to me A LOT ( in the mornings before he goes to work and after he comes home) and tells me all about his frustrations and successes. He treats me with respect. He feels like spending time with the children together and/or his special times with each of them is more important than time alone with me.



*edit*

Then I gave them about 5 pages of detailed information if they wanted it with this at the end:

As I said, I'm not sure whether to say thank you or not..(just kidding) Help me figure out how to deal with this now that we have two separate ways of looking at marriage: yours of Romantic love ( didin't even realize what I was missing until I reread/read your stuff) or caring love with respect.


Anyway, we'll see if I don't chicken out. Sometimes I want to go throw up I'm so nervous...

So do the rest of you agree with Melody that my husband isn't in love with me?? I'm not sure he would agree with that... Confusing..

TW, when a spouse is IN LOVE, they do not resist spending time with their spouse because their spouse is irresistable. In your case, everything comes before you. Absolutely everything. Romantic love is demonstrated when you are your spouse's FAVORITE leisure activity. You don't have to beg or push someone to spend time with someone with whom they are in love because they find that person irresistible.

The emotional need you cited, domestic support, should not be a top need of someone who is in love, because it is not an intimate emotional need. You don't fill one's LOVE BANK with non intimate emotional needs.

But you don't have to take my word for it. You can sign up for one of the professional services, coaching or the online program, and they will give you a TEST to determine if your spouse is in love with you. There is an actual test in the book Effective Marriage Counseling. They give this test to all of us who signed up for the MB course and we still take it 2x a year.

I don't intend on posting here anymore, though, because I have already spent a lot of time [that I really couldn't even afford] and my ideas were shot down. I don't have much time to spare here as it is. I honestly think you need professional advice from the Harleys in order to move forward.

I wish you the best.

ok, one more and then I have to get going!

The Love Bank

Thanks Melody. I do appreciate your time. I am both nervous and excited about talking to the Harleys tomorrow. I'll mention your suggestions and ask them if they think he isn't in love with me... Joyce told me in the preinterview that she was excited to be talking to a healthy couple, so now I don't know what to think..

I need to go organize the 27 boxes of books I took down from the attic, but I really don't want to... That is why I am here...looking for people to talk to...

I'm sure he would disagree, but actions generally speak louder than words. For someone who loves you, he sure seems to spend a lot of time engaged in activities that don't include you. His actions, to me, appear to be of someone who is avoiding being alone with their spouse. He seems to prefer solitary activities and is handy around the house. On the surface, he seems to be a frugal, hard-working man who contributes to his family by being a Jack of All Trades in the home. This is admirable, but he is doing this at the expense of maintaining an intimate relationship with his wife. THAT should be his priority. Not fixing the fence or re-plumbing the bathroom.

Spending the money to hire someone to take 10 or so hours off his To Do List each week would be money well spent if it freed up his time so the two of you could build your UA time. You've heard the old saying "penny-wise, pound foolish", yes? I believe it applies here.

If Mr. Bliss were half as "frugal" as your husband and spent that much time maintaining the house while I (and our marriage) withered in the shadow of his busy-ness, I would definitely be having a conversation with him. I wouldn't admire him for loving me so much that he spends his weekends doing chores.

I'm looking forward to hearing your call. Looking back on my marriage, we weren't in Love with each other the MB way. But, I don't know I really even knew what it was. So, if you had asked me, I probably would have said yes, I'm in love with my wife. But I also remember making a clear distinction between "in love" and "mature, married couple" kind of love -- it was probably a justifiction for my lack of intense feelings for my wife at the time.

So, I would agree with Ms. Lane. Your husband is not In Love with you, from the looks of it. The good news is that he appears to be in a place where he could very much be in love with you. You have a prescription here. You can turn up the love meter with by following the doctor's orders, and you have an appointment today!

good luck. They are easy to talk to, so you have nothing to be nervous about.

opt

Well, yes, TW. That's the basic problem. Listen to what Dr. Harley says about how people in love act:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=68


Dr. Harley has to move heaven and earth to motivate spouses to spend 15 hours together, because they are not in love. When they are in love, he does not have to do this, because they will move heaven and earth to spend more time with each other, because they are in love and can't get enough of it!

Your husband may think that what he has now is as good as it gets, so he may say he is in love, but if he doesn't act like he can't get enough of you, he's not in love.

tw, the way we can help you is by motivating you to take the steps that make it more likely that you will soon have your HUSBAND to talk to.

Get him on board!

Looking forward to hearing you on the show. I usually catch the rebroadcast.

I survived. I really liked the summary they gave after the show. Joyce hit the nail on the head that I felt bad about complaining when most people would kill for what I have. I guess they will send me the mp3 so he can hear it. I don't think I said anything that he would find objectionable, so I will let him listen and then see if he has an interest in e-mailing them back.

What suggestions did they give you?

Dr. Harley did a good job of explaining why it wasn't important to my husband and why he had a different paradigm and that his paradigm is like a lot of other marriage books. He talked about how and why theirs is different. He did a really good job of getting behind my husbands's thinking about how it would be a lot of work. It isn't really necessary. Then he talked about how the wives are the ones that NEED the 15 hours to help feel bonded. He did a very good job of explaining why it is so important to me and yet not attacking my husband either.

Then Joyce talked something I didn't post in my e-mail but is exactly how I feel that I look at my husband and all the good things he does and all the marriage books and all the other people would look at my husband and would love to have him and wonder how I could think it wasn't enough but that I saw what was missing and saw things that could develop into bigger problems later on. She told me not to feel bad for complaining.

They both said we were doing a lot of things right and were glad I was focusing on this now. They want my husband to listen to the show ( They are sending me an mp3 of it I guess.) and then send an e-mail to Dr. Harley..

It made me feel hopeful because Dr. Harley made arguments like my husband would and then refuted them.

Thanks for being there everyone.

Just finished listening to you on the radio! You did great, and I hope listening to the show will help your husband understand what you need.

Anybody have a link to this show as i missed it

DND, and TW45 - you can listen to the rebroadcast today up until 12-1 ET (haven't quite figured that one out yet). 45 - they will not send an MP3, unless that is something new they're doing. You can relisten now, and Brainy might post a link to the show if you ask her real sweet.

I'm anxious to hear your husband's reaction to the show. I think you are very smart to be pursuing this and striving for an even more amazing marriage than you currently have. Your husband is lucky to be presented this opportunity. Most people have no idea - I didn't and it wound me up divorced. People thought we had the most perfect marriage too...

opt

They know that my husband will be out of the country until Saturday, so he can't listen to the show today. They said they would figure out a way to get me a copy of the show. ( I just figured mp3 would be the easiest way.)

Well, they're quite clever, so perhaps that's what they'll do.
I thought it was a good call. It's amazing how they manage to weave in so many concepts that can be applied to all different situations from ONE email.
thanks again for being on the show - it helped a lot of people, for sure.

opt

TW, I have to be honest with you. I'm sure there are women 'who would kill' to have a husband as active around the house as is yours (for a while). But honestly? I'll take my H with his habit of throwing socks on the floor and hiring people to do odd jobs around the house because he's NOT handy.

There is a trade-off for his choring, and that's your relationship. I don't think I'd agree to the trade-off.

Grin.. that would be me!! You should see my room right now. It is completely trashed with clothes everywhere since he isn't home. The only reason I clean is because he likes it.. I honestly wouldn't mind socks being left around either! And I agree with you but what I/she was saying is that people from the outside wouldn't see that. Does that make sense?

Waiting to see if he can skype..

But honestly? I'll take my H with his habit of throwing socks on the floor [/quote]

I will post it as soon as they post it in the archives. They are a few days behind.

They finally posted it.
Radio clip of tiredwife's call
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4

Ok, so related to Nov 28th show.. Basically I fill all of my husband's needs already. Or I did. Over the last few days I just quit. I wasn't rude. I just didn't rub his head or his back or stuff like that that I know he likes. Well today he asked me out for a date tomorrow. So that means I need to reward him by rubbing his back tonight and doing things he likes, is that correct? That isn't being manipulative?

This is a joke, right?

No...how am I being funny??? Sigh.. I quit because I was mad at him.

How is rewarding your husband for good habits in any way "devious" or "shrewd?" : so when my company runs a sales contest are they manipulating me?


ma�nip�u�la�tion (m-npy-lshn)
n.
1.
a. The act or practice of manipulating.
b. The state of being manipulated.
2. Shrewd or devious management, especially for one's own advantage.
[French, from manipule, handful, as of grain, from Latin manipulus, sheaf, handful; see maniple.]

Or follow up question then I only rub his back when he takes me on a date, right?

I guess because I thought you were supposed to do good things all the time with no thought of reward. The bible says you get your reward in heaven.

Double backrubs with cherries on top :-)

That would be sacrifice, which is gaining at the others expense. It is terrible for marriages and Dr Harley explained why today. The Bible doesn't tell people to gain at the others expense in a marriage. That just leads to resentment. It is a renters mentality and renters keep score. When the score is not even

Was the intention of quitting to get his attention, or to send him a message, or to get even?

On your show you talked about your inability to be honest with him. Was this maybe one of those moments where you could have just been honest with him? "I'm not in the mood to give you a back rub because ....".

tired I think you and I are a lot alike in one respect. We have a hard time being totally honest ,radically honest with our spouses. The reasons why may be different but it�s hard for us to be that open. For me I fear my wife�s response and to some extent I almost feel guilty or selfish when I have to be completely transparent about what I'm feeling. How you get past that may be different for you � but for me I need to lose all disrespectful judgments of my wife. I need to get it into my thick skull that my perception of my wife isn�t necessarily the truth and if I just phrase my openness and honesty in a respectful, thoughtful way the conversations will go much better than I could have ever imagined. I�ve experienced this very thing just this week with her. We�ve talked about a few items I thought were taboo for me to even consider discussing.

YES!!!! That is it EXACTLY.. It was more like giving up sort of. The got one thing wrong on the show and that is that I want him to plan the dates. That is not it exactly but rather that he would see it as a priority. It has been me saying, "when are we going on a date this week?" "What are we going to do fun?" So I just quit asking. It has been a good month since we have been on a date. I had been going in each night as he did his work on the computer, coded surgeries, or dictated charts and rubbed his head and his back etc I quit doing that and just went back to what we were doing before I found marriage builders and just doing my own thing. You said this For me I fear my wife�s response and to some extent I almost feel guilty or selfish when I have to be completely transparent about what I'm feeling.That is it exactly. I don't know how to say what I think or feel. It is deep inside of me. And quite honestly, it would take an hour of talking about nothing and feeling quite safe before I felt like even starting to share. It is me, not him..just the way I am wired. He is much less complicated. He can come in the door and say, "The surgery didn't go well and I am so frustrated or this is going on at the office or whatever. He has always been a what you see if what you get kind of guy.

"I would love it if" is the way we're being coached. Granted we're doing it as part of our exercise to communicate our ENs. However I do know that her and I have incorporated that statement into our talks. It's a way to communicate what you'd love to get but doesn't sound demanding in anyway.

"Hey I would love it if you would ...."

It's up to them to decide what they're going to do with your wish (not a demand). Sorta sets them up for expectation without insisting it get done. Trying to take care of our side of the street hoping your spouse participates in doing the same is tricky business. You sound like you�ve already done most of what you can to clean up � just getting yourself to be radically honest is the part you�ve got left IMHO. However I think you need a carrot and/or a stick depending on his response to your openness. I�m no expert in that area.

That�s where you and I differ. My W and I are doing the program with Dr. Chalmers help. If I communicate an I�d love it if to my W and her to me it�s our job to fulfill the request. Fake it til we make it is our course of action.

For 9 years I�ve been hanging around this forum making futile attempts (probably poor attempts) to get my wife on board with the program. Funny how I thought I was asking and she denies being asked. WTH? It doesn�t matter. We�re doing it now. I think it took my withdrawal and then her subsequent withdrawal for us to realize we have to do this and do it together.

I need help losing those DJs and being more open and honest.

I was trying to do this strategy to overcome dishonesty worksheet from the 5 Steps to Romantic Love worksheet. Some of the questions stump me. Here is what happened on Monday:

Our cat has been banished to the study, utilty and playroom because she started peeing on the leather couches in the living room. ( Yes, we've taken her to the vet and tried numerous things.) He had said previously that if peed on the couch in the playroom we would have to get rid of her. And no one would take her because she also bites. So apparantly she was mad at us for leaving her over Thanksgiving and so on Monday morning she peed on the couch in the playroom. My daughter saw her and we quickly cleaned it up and pledged to tell no one else. ( Yes, wrong, I know... But I hate to see a cat get put to sleep It is my daughter's cat but actually loves me. She has never bitten me, only everyone else.)

Well, it was my turn to take the girls to orchestra and I was gone when he got home. His chair was blocked by ornament boxes so he sat in that spot. He smelled it. So he said almost as soon as I walked in the door, "We have a problem." ( My son had warned me that the cat had peed again when I first walked in. As I said, the boys didn't know either.)
I told him I know. That we had tried to clean it up. Then I said, "What do you want to do?" in a disappointed voice. He stalked to the study. "Whatever you want to do. Whatever I say now I will be the bad guy. Our daughter will hate me for killing the cat." To which she cries and says she won't hate him. Then he turned to me and said, " Were you not going to tell me about this?" To which I nodded no. That was the extent of our fight. He was angry and he had a right to be. He slept about as far from me in the bed as you can.

The next morning we decided I would call the vet and find out what our options were. He apologized for getting angry. But to me, he had a right to be angry. He didn�t yell when he said the things above. But you could tell he was furious. He was also furious because he had sat there and now his clothes smelled like it. ( I couldn�t smell it, but his nose is much more sensitive.)

So I�m trying to do the worksheet on this event. Describe what conditions trigger it. Ok, a pet or a kid does something that I know my husband may not like. I don�t want him to be upset nor do I wish for the person/pet to get in trouble.

It then asks what conditions could I avoid� I can�t. I can�t control these people/pets nor the standards my husband has. So I�m not sure what changes I could make other than to just tell him. So I�m not sure what my plan could include�

Second example I talked about earlier: So I was all excited about our date Tuesday afternoon. We had thought dinner and a movie but after seeing the plugged in review of Flight decided that wasn't a good option. So I suggested a picnic lunch at a local park. So he spent the morning picking up the medical supplies for his mission trip and we met at the park.... To which we ate lunch and walked around the park. Then he hurried home so he could cut down the tree and get the hay from a neighbors before it got dark.... I got less than an hour.

I was so upset but I wasn�t honest. He still doesn�t know I was upset about that. I still haven�t told him I was on the radio show. I have made a cd of the show for him to listen to in his car, but can�t find the words or the best time.

So the conditions that trigger my dishonesty: I don�t want to upset my husband. I don�t want to make him feel bad. I don�t want to ruin his day. I didn�t tell him I was upset about the date because he was leaving on his mission trip and I didn�t want for him to be upset about all this on his trip as they had enough logistics and things with the mission trip itself to worry about. ( The head doctor ended up having to leave, so he was in charge.) Now it seems so long ago, why bother..

What could the changes be: for me not to worry about it and just tell the truth but I don�t know how to change the way I feel. I don�t know how NOT to worry about it. Instead I�ve just had imaginary conversations in my head all the time.

I honestly think he asked me out because of the fight. He has apologized about 6 times for getting angry. But seriously, I wrote down above the exact wording/extent of the fight. He had a right to be mad for my not telling him. And he wasn�t disrespectful.

So I�m just not sure what to put in for my plan�

tired,

You and him need to POJA the cat situation. He realizes he's alone in his decision on what to do so he just tells you to do what you want. The hardest part of POJA is finding the win/win especially when it comes to sensitive matters like these. All the more reason to continue to have conversations/brainstorming sessions until you find the agreement.

You've already realized your mistake in the dishonesty so I won't comment on that.

The trip. That's easy. You have to be very specific on how you want your needs met. I had a hard time putting down a number on paper for my wife when it came to my #1 EN knowing she has never been able to fulfill my number. But you have to. You have to be that honest. The I'd love it if statements are the perfect way to give him directions. �I would love it if you would plan a picnic once a month where it is just you and I for at least X hours and we only talk about topics that are of interest to both of us.�.
There is no need to tell him you didn�t enjoy the date. Instead give direction for what you�d like to see go forward. Eliminate mentioning anything negative. Positive statements only. If he asks tell him what parts you liked. Not what you didn�t. �I loved it when you �.�. That way you�re being honest and positive at the same time.

I hate to give away trade secrets of the male gender � but we�re really clueless when it comes to what women want. So tell us please.
I was amazed at how easy it was to fill my wife�s IWLIIs(I would love it if(s)) once she communicated them.
�Text me once a day to ask how I�m doing.�.
Really? That�s it?
�Yep.�
So the hugs and the pecks on the cheek?
�Do �em if you�d like but I would just like that text�.
Consider it done.

Actually that has already been done when I called the vet. He suggested that one option could be to make her an outside cat. Now she doesn't have outside claws, but anyone who takes her will be doing that anyway. So we will bring her in at night and gradually get her used to being in the garage or outside during the day. Yes, she could run off or get injured but that seems to be the solution we could all live with when we had a family meeting about the issue.

But yes, that is one thing I think I have realized that I don't tell him things because I don't agree with them or think they are unreasonable or think sometimes kids are kids. Yes, he kept his furniture pristine as a kid and always put everything back where he found it, and had his clothes neatly hung up, but most boys are not like that!!!! ( He has either mellowed or given up on that. What really helped was when a pastor gave a sermon about how how a child keeps his room doesn't really matter nearly as much as the qualities of compassion for others or respectfulness to elders. And to me, I don't tolerate disrespect but a messy room is ok. If it were up to me, I would only clean the house when we had company. That is why we trash the house when he is out of town, eat junk food and then clean everything back up when dad is home.

But he thinks we POJA well because he brings thing like today he called to check when a partner wanted to switch call days. I always check his call schedule, he checks with me about major purchases, etc. It is the things like what I mentioned above that he wouldn't even think of POJA because that is the way they ought to be. The house should be clean, things should be put up when you get them out, etc. But for those of us that are free spirits, it isn't quite that easy. I can be looking through cookbooks and a child will call and so I leave them because I'm not done and never get back to them. (But I need to make the menus, so I've left them out..) He is right. It would be better and easier. That said, I have kept our closet and room immaculate since August. His only comment when I asked him if he noticed was.." Yes, the bruises have just about healed from my tripping over your stuff in the closet." Hee Hee.... Sigh..that has taken inordinate amount of effort on my part to keep our room clean. But to him, it should have been that way all along.

That's because you haven't discussed your agreement or lack thereof on the subject with him isn't it? I mean the phrase means "joint agreement". Unless you voice your thoughts he's going to assume you have an agreement. And until he hears otherwise he probably doesn�t care if it's one you like or not.

There's beauty in the statement "I'm not enthusiastic about that. Can we discuss trying something else?".

I�m not entirely sure I�m on the mark but I get hints of judgments in your statements about what he feels he needs to be happy and the way he wishes to live. Hard to judge the context of what you�re saying though. Maybe you�re just explaining the facts. But �
�But for those of us that are free spirits� �.. hmmmm. Wanting a clean home means he�s less of a free spirit? I'm not sure there's an official definition of what it means to be a free spirit but please be careful how you think of him. Disrespectful judgments are the ones that exist in our heads. It doesn�t matter if they�re communicated to him or not.

�But yes, that is one thing I think I have realized that I don't tell him things because I don't agree with them or think they are unreasonable or think sometimes kids are kids. Yes, he kept his furniture pristine as a kid and always put everything back where he found it, and had his clothes neatly hung up, but most boys are not like that!!!!� But he is and wants that for his children. Who gets to decide what they�re taught in the household? There are no wrongs and no rights. Just what works and doesn�t work for you two. POJA.

When you say �If it were up to me� � well � to some extent it is up to you� just not you entirely. You have the choice to negotiate anything and everything � radical honesty. It isn�t that the house should be clean � it�s that he appreciates a clean home. There�s a difference in the way that�s said. I mean does he really say in a sort of demanding way �The house should be clean!�. If so then you could politely say �I would love it if you could simply state you like it when the house is clean.� or etc. If you aren�t enthusiastic about the house cleaning then this is something you should probably be discussing with him.

"or think they are unreasonable� Melody already mentioned sacrifice earlier.

He doesn't really say the house should be clean more like, " Honey, if we kept the drawers closed then food wouldn't get in them. " So I then went through and took everything out of all the drawers, wiped them out so that he would be happy.

He needs for things to be organized and clean to feel in control and not stressed. He sighes as he looks around is just irratable, etc I think that was the other part of the cat problem is that the playroom was a disaster. BUT we had gotten back from his parents the night before and then he had gotten all of our boxes down for our Christmas decorations and we started decorating. So I spent that Monday and got all the suitcases unpacked, all the laundry done, our room and bathroom was deep cleaned and decorated, the living room was deep cleaned and decorated and I homeschooled our daughter. So that is all I had time to do. The playroom was full of empty boxes that needed to be put back in the attic and ones we haven't gotten to yeat and ornaments we were halfway through putting up. But there is just one of me and I think he knew that and so he didn't complain and knows he doesn' t have a right to complain, but it gets on his nerves because his mom kept their house as neat as a pin.

He's really been trying and doesn't complain because he knows it isn't practical, but I know it still bothers him. He is just so much happier when everything is clean and organized. When I heard that call from the man who complained about his messy wife, that really hit home with me. Which is why I have made it a priority this fall to keep our room, bathroom and kitchen and living room spotless. The playroom is just a lot harder because that is where we live and do school and I am constatly battling papers, schoolbooks, projects, etc in that room.

I did ask him when we talked about his emotional need for domestic support what would make him happy and he said for the kitchen to be clean and no crumbs and the kids not to have left stuff out and the playroom to be at a reasonable level. I've succeeded at the kitchen, but the playroom is still a work in progress.

I guess I feel the weight of unspoken expectations if that makes sense. He never says it, but I know I'm nowhere near his mom's standard.

Just be careful you're not sacrificing to fill his need. If there simply isn't enough time in the day to get things done and he wants them done then you have to negotiate a way for them to get done. Which means he may need to pitch in or take over other responsibilities to free you up to do those.

My W works about 30 hours outside the home and does most of the kid pick ups and drop offs. I work around 50-55 hours which includes travel time. If that helps give you reference to your sich. In our home my W and I split the duties pretty evenly.

I am a bit like your H. I grew up in a home where a lot wasn't left laying around albeit we lived in a small humble home and didn�t have a lot. My W grew up in a home where a lot was saved. To this day I can walk into my MILs and see items gathered around that seem to have little purpose � at least to me. For instance, newspapers stacked up a foot higher or more on a chair or stool that are at least a month old. You�d think the recycling would have a place somewhere out of sight. Some of those habits she grew up with are habits she brought with her. Her and I have had several discussions about our comfort levels of the home. What is interesting is that she doesn�t really like the clutter or an unclean home either � so lately she�s been cleaning and organizing like crazy. My IWLII was that we work together to schedule a half hour a week to clean and organize areas that are above and beyond the everyday stuff. She�s spent probably 10 or 12 in the last week organizing and throwing out items not needed without my involvement. She�s made me very happy and she says she feels great for doing it.

The one comment in defense of our need for cleanliness that I will mention is this. For me I like stuff to stay clean and organized. It gives me a sense that I am trying to maintain and prolong our home. For instance if we don�t vacuum regularly and shampoo the carpet where the golden retriever lies then the carpet gets wrecked. The oils from the dog and the dirt (and yuck other things that stick to her) end up getting ground down into the carpet. If we walk on that carpet it breaks down the fabric even more because of what we�ve all left behind. In our home that area of carpet is now beyond repair. It can no longer be cleaned enough. Her and I are discussing replacing it� with wood flooring so she can lay on a rug . To sum it up it�s more than just the visual effect that �s important it�s being diligent in protecting and extending the life of the investment. It feels like the responsible thing to do. Your comment about free spirit sort of struck a chord with me. It felt judgmental.

But back to your comments � in the end just be careful you�re not overdoing it in a sacrificial way. If something feels unreasonable to you � then it is unreasonable. So that�s when PORH and POJA are crucial.

I'm so incredibly sad...

I found a video we made on the 2nd anniversary of our blind date. I rented a video camera for the weekend. I slept at his apartment ( on the couch) and we went bowling and to a local lake we loved. We were engaged at the time. It was about 4 months before we got married. Oh my goodness, how much has changed....

During the entire video my husband is saying, "Isn't she gorgeous? Isn't she terrific." He can't keep his hands off of me. I can definitely see where he met my top admiration need big time. We were constantly kissing and stuff. My middle son couldn't stomach more than a few minutes and said it was the most disgusting thing he had ever seen and that he didn't want to see his parents acting like that.. That statement made me so incredibly sad......

The other thing is how much we have changed or haven't changed. I had the 80's big hair thing going. However, other than having straight hair, I don't look that different. I asked my middle son who will tell me anything honestly and could care less if he hurts my feelings. He is constantly telling me how ancient I am. But he said that other than some deep indention around my mouth like Obama( ???) I basically look the same. However, my husband was 6 foot and 165-170 pounds and looked like a kid. I didn't realize how much he had aged.. I think he is more handsome now, but now his hair is all gray. He weighs between 150-155 pounds and his face has worry lines everywhere. I don't know if you've ever noticed how a president looks before they enter office and after they have served, but it is that same look of intense stress.

So what do I want. I want for him to look at me that way again and laugh that way again. I mean it is like he doesn't even see me. I can walk naked through a room and he doesn't even notice. I get in bed naked and he is asleep in 30 seconds...


So according to Mr. Alias I need to say, " I would love it if..." Sigh I would love it if you would see me, come up behind me and seduce me, gosh fill in the blank. I don't want to be something you check off your list that you have fuflilled... If I give him a specific list, that is all it would be..

Oh well, can't be in my mid twenties again again..

pop quiz TW:
What Lovebuster would that be?
opt

A demand?? I'm not sure. Which is why I don't ever say any of these things out loud. Only here.

I won't ask him to pitch in. When he gets home at 7, I want him with me not cleaning. Also, when he does this is what he does: uses toothpicks to go around the edges, wipes down all the front of the cabinets, takes apart the stove, etc We aren't talking a superficial clean.

And oh yes, the being a good steward speech so things last longer. Yes, I know. And that is what is so dang frustrating and why I don't argue. he is right. Of course. He always is. ( I'm not being sarcastic. The way he wants to do things is the way my mom wanted me to do things and the "right" way to do things.) I just wish I could go escape to a one bedroom house all by myself so I only have to do what I want to do.

Sigh.. He's on call this weekend. My assignment today is for me to get the garage cleaned out, so I'm off to put things in the attic, put up the outside decorations on the fence, etc. I've already found the battery receipt for the tractor so he can return it. I'm really tired since his phone went off half the night from the hospital.. He got to stay home last evening and last night, but is off doing surgeries that came in last night. We'll see if we see him today.

The thing is I can't win.. For instance, this morning before he left he was getting out his insulated mug to put his hot chocolate into it. He had left it in pieces in the sink. ( Probably to make sure that I would take it apart to clean it.) I washed it and put it back...minus one piece. It was a piece that I didn't even know came out... "Oh, yes, I always take that piece out. " After searching we found it in the trash. Now he smiled the whole time and was very nice. Yet the message is still clear.. I don't do it right. And so I learn this one and now I know all 5 pieces to take apart to wash and I get this done "correctly." But then it will just be something else. I can't keep up and I'm not that detailed.

Since August I have: Cleaned out the craft closet ( the one you see on tv shows where things fall out on you.) I did that first and it is still completely organized and clean. I completely cleaned and organized the coat closet including the box of piano music. It looks awesome. I've been keeping the living room pretty much spotless. I make sure to put up my daughter's school work at the end of every day so it looks neat.

The dining room is normally my work area but now in the last few weeks it is neat and clean and only has 2 little piles on it ( quiet time and current work)

I've kept the kitchen reasonably neat. The other thing I did in August is that I went through every single drawer in my room and everything is neatly folded and organized, so is my bedside table. So is everything in the bathroom. I mentioned the closet before and I have KEPT IT IMMACULATE since August.

I clean his desk and organize it every Friday afternoon, often finding papers of his that have gotten lost/buried over the week.

And what I have I gotten for all of this??????? Nothing.

Oh yeah.. I got down my 27 boxes of books from the attic. They are now in containers and organized according to time period or subject. ( Most of them are homeschool books that I will reuse with my daughter.) I brought 4 boxes of stuff to my homeschool group and gave away and gave 4 boxes away to the library. I still have one box of books to sell when I go to the town an hour away that sells my consignment books. I also organized about half of our toys that were up there. And when he got down the Christmas decoration his only comment was "You have been working up here..."

What about THanks honey..the house looks great. Wow. I know this isn't your favortie thing to do, but I appreciate it.

Or I've lost 17 pounds... He told me I looked good the first few weeks we started all of this, but now nothing and my body is really starting to look good. Instead of those cotton panties and bras, I bought some nice, sexy ones and some new lingerie.. I wore the new stuff after my date, and he said absolutely nothing....nothing..... I am a size 4/6 again now...

I know I'm not pretty. I never will be. I'm not sure why he thought I was when we dated. I was born with a cleft palate, cleft lip and deviated septum... Yes, they were fixed, but I still have scars and my face just isn't quite normal.... But I try, I really do and I couldn't believe he thought I was pretty then, but now I guess he sees the truth...

Sigh.. I've hung up the 4 giant wreaths and the garlands around the entrance. I'm off to wrap the entrance poles and put the giant ornaments on our big sage bushes... Not that he will say thank you for any of this either.

Well, garage is done, though I doubt to his standards. If he gets home, he can have the boys redo it if he wishes. ( take everything out, sweep out the edges and wash it out) The cat is out there now. I've done a couple of loads of laundry and swept and mopped the wood floors. Since the dishwasher is now broken, we did all of our dishes by hand as well.

I am so incredibly bored... Well, let us see. I guess I can work on finances ( which is the only thing I hate doing more than housework) or start cleaning and organizing the playroom/schoolroom ( the only room inside the house that is left).

I just want to get out of this house so incredibly badly. I want to talk to adults!!! Our homeschool stuff ended in November, so I am currently talking to adults on Wednesday nights and Sunday morning. My daughter is sick, so I guess I won't get out tomorrow.. I AM SO BORED AND LONELY!!!

Can you go for a walk?

Just entered a few things into money. Hubby called: finished 2 surgeries and seeing 2 more consults before he has 2 more.. HE sounds so tired. I'm so selfish when he is working so hard.. I've decided to go do some Christmas shopping. I made some posters for him that have pictures from his mission trips along with Bible verses ( with the help of Shutterfly). They look great and I need to buy frames for them. I will also look for the new Tim Hawkins video for the kids. He asked if I would get a decorative outside set for around the windmill we built, so I'll look for that as well. I was just sitting around her in the off chance he might be home, but he'll be out for 5 or more hours at least... Sorry. I have no right to be mad. I guess I just woke up in a bad mood. I miss having friends..

Another DJ.
TW, I'm not trying to pick on you or be the DJ police. But I ruined my marriage with these (and my ex was an expert as well)...among other bad habits obviously.

You can't put thoughts into people's heads. It's damaging to YOU and your relationships with them. It shuts out the possibility of having a dialogue about something...like the orderliness of the garage.

Maybe you are expecting him to come home and notice, but when he doesn't you will be mad. (I know the pattern well).
INstead, let him know what you did and you'd like a little positive reinforcement, and if he doesn't react the right way, just talk about your feelings in a factual way. kwim?

Give others the opportunity to actually give their true sentiments. It's only fair.

--sorry if you already know all this, I don't always have time to review entire threads before I butt in with my opinion. hopefully it's helpful to hear it again.

opt

So disrespectful judgements are what you think??? I always thought they were just what I said. Because once again, I would just smile and say, "Yes, dear.." I never say any of these things. But I can tell you that especially early in our marriage nearly 100 percent of our fights were over the house or in that case the apartment. And though he has gotten mellower, the comment about his standards is this: When we do things as a family, that is how we do them. When he has the boys do it and he is home, he has them take everything out. They must use the small broom on the edges and the big broom for the middle. Then they must wash it out. A few things of dust on the edges don't bother me. And to be honest, right now it probably won't bother my husband either. There can be days when he doesn't notice and just goes with the flow and it doesn't seem to bother him. But other days when it makes him go ballistic. Ok, that is a strong word but heavy sighs trying to control his words and talking about how if you don't take care of things they don't last as long etc.

So even though it has been a pattern, I should not even think it????? After 22 years, I know what he thinks/believes about things..

Well, he got home about 8:30 last night and fixed himself a plate and joined me and our daughter watching the end of Home Alone. We then went to bed. I put in my contacts ( I wear them at night and take them off during the day and I see perfectly. I LOVE it.) I guess I left the sink plugged and so my husband went to let it out.. "Your sink doesn't drain right, does it." Sleepily, I said "I don't know." Turns out it was plugged up with all sorts of stuff. So he spends 20 minutes and then happlily comes to bed, "Your sink is fixed."

He then gets on his phone trying to figure out how to fix our dishwasher. He gets a hospital call in the middle of this somewhere but just has them work her up for this morning. He already took it apart yesterday and got some gunk out, but that didn't fix it. So he has determined it is either the control panel or the heating elements. So he decides I will need to call a repair guy in the morning, since he isn't sure he can handle that.

I didn't sleep well. I got up around midnight and went to the playroom. Finally went back to our bed at 4 only to find that he is up peering into our dishwasher. "Good morning. I found out a way to test the heating element to find out if it is working so I'll take it apart this afternoon to test it." He gets ready to go and as we are leaving in the playroom he glances over at the area by the Christmas tree "Oh, you got that all organized." "Yes, last week the day after you mentioned it bothered you." He smiles and nods approvingly. We enter the garage.. "Oh,, the boys didn't sweep up here." "No, they just swept the middle section." A disappointed "Oh" ( Can I just say that I told you so Optimism!) But then he smiles and we walk on to the truck. I pray for him and his day as usual and then he reminds me that we need to pick out shingles today. He has samples, he just has to put them on the roof so we can pick out which color we want. Our roof is 20 years old and thankfully someone else will be doing that.

My guess is that he will ask the boys if sometime this afternoon in between their ball games if they would please do the garage properly.

He just can't stand things being out of place. Summer before last we had a HUGE home remodel. We gutted our kitchen, half bath, master bathroom and enlarged the entrance to the dining area and area between the breakfast room and living room. He gave our contractor lists every day of things he had seen that needed to be fixed. He was always sweet about it. He and the contractor have a good relationship and ended up playing practical jokes on each other. We had a star put in the middle of the cabinet over the stove. The contractor looked at me and grinned. He moved it a millimeter off. He said, "How long do you think it will be till >>>>> notices?" I told him less than a minute. When he got home that day he talked to me and we walked into the kitchen and he didn't even pause in the conversation as he went over to fix the star. Less than 30 seconds to notice it. I don't know that I would have ever noticed it.

He's left to go do a couple of surgeries and then come home. He is only on call for his office today and not the hospital, so it should be mainly phone calls today. What a fun afternoon of chores ahead of us. The good news is that my daughter is fine. I guess she just got car sick or nervous about her performance yesterday, so I get to go to church. HOORAY.. People!!

I just reread the disrespectful judgment section and it is only spoken aloud. My husband would take the questionnaire and say I never try to correct him and never say my opion is right. I know that his way is better. I mean, yes the garage looks better his way. So I just smile and go along. I'm just tired, tired of working. tired of projects. I know that my way isn't right and life isn't about having fun anyway... It is about serving God to the best of your ability. So for now it is being a good wife and smiling. Serving him unto the Lord. I'm just tired.

And this is why a one bedroom apartment looks absolutely fabulous to me. I just contact the management and they fix it. I can keep that reasonably clean. I can go serve the world and God instead of spending time on chores. No child would need me... Or I can take a nap which sounds really good right now. Better get ready for church.

Yes the lovebuster for DJ's refers to ones made to your spouse. Still written here they are still disrespectful judgements. If your husband were to read them here they would hurt the same as if you had spoken them to him. You also make yourself feel negative over these things by making them to yourself.

It would be much more helpful to practice radical honesty and poja a lot of this stuff. It sounds like you are doing a lot of sacrificing and it is just leading to you being resentful. That is not what Dr. Harley says to do. If you don't feel like you can carry the amount of what would make your husband happy then tell him and work out a solution that will make you both happy.

If you want your husband to say something more or notice more tell him, "I would like it if you...". Your husband is not a mind reader and will only know what it is you want or need if you tell him. He won't know something has bothered or upset you unless you tell him that it has.

Ok, I will try not to think it, but how do you not when some of it is true.. So yesterday I try to go to church, but my daughter feels sick, so I turn around and come home. MY sweet oldest son had washed half the dishes without being asked that morning. ( Well, mom I was ready so I might as well!! I gave him a great big hug!) I finished the dishes he left, I swept the floor again since my middle son had gotten animal cracker crumbs all over it. I cleaned the microwave since it had gotten nasty. The pantry was a little disorganized with crumbs on it, so I cleaned that out.

After that, I decided to reward myself and took a bath and started a new book. I then got into bed and about that time, hubby got home ( 2:30 or so) "Hey what kind of tape did you use on the entrance? The ribbons are all falling down?? Oh...you should have used duck tape. Maybe you can do that while I do the gutters this afternoon."

So we talked for awhile as he made lunch and watched the end of the Green Bay game. We quickly made love and then outside to put up the various shingles and choose which one. He blew out the gutters while I fixed the ribbons.

We then tackled the dishwasher. I helped him take it all apart and test the various elements. They were all fine, so it must be the control board. As he is down there he notices crumbs around the finials ( sp? Our kitchen cabinets look like furniture and they have decorative legs and food was around the crevices) " You should probably use the tools on the vacuum cleaner to do this sweetie. This just invites bugs."

See what I mean.. it is never enough. He is right, of course. I should have used different tape. It would be better to use the vacuum cleaner tools.. But I will do that and then there is something else I can do better or more effeciently. But what am I supposed to say, "I know I'm home all day. I don't have a job and now schooling ..... only takes a few hours each day, but I shouldn't have to keep the house clean.." That isn't fair... What would I POJA??? I have no leg to stand on. He's right. Crumbs attract bugs. But he is making thoughtful requests, right. He says it nicely.. So that isn't a love buster. But I worked my tail off and it feels like it isn't enough. I just cried silently most of the night.

mariposa06 said it better than I could. It is a brilliant post.

I picture you running away some day and your husband saying "what the heck?" He has NO IDEA how unhappy you are, does he?

My ex thought I could read her mind also.
Actually that was towards the end, previous to that she says she tried to talk to me and I wouldn't listen. If she had tried harder, we may not be divorced now.
I found MB too late - she was already out the door.

Would it feel better if you asked him to give you 2-3 positive comments for every critique? That doesn't seem unreasonable. Let him know how much more in love with him you would be if he did that.

opt

I asked him to do that when we discussed our EN worksheet several months ago. It just feels like I don't have a right to ask that. I mean admiration doesn't feel like a valid need and how is he supposed to say GREAT JOB when it is something he feels entitled to?? And why do I need that so much? But everything I have ever done in my life is for the approval of others.

And i still don't get what I would POJA: the right to never do housework?? But what is it I WANT to do?? To be honest, I don't have a clue. Without my activities I am worthless.

You are making this way too complicated. You are going to POJA the little stuff, one item at a time. Let's use the dishwasher repair as an example;

Background: you have eaten dinner and are both relaxed at the table.
You: I want to negotiate something with you, is now a good time?
Mr TW: Fine
You: When you pointed out the crumbs under the cabinets, it made me feel unloved.
Mr TW: I had no idea I was doing that, should I have kept my comments to myself?
You: I want there to be more joy for me in the times we spend together.
Mr TW: I love repairing things and it was wonderful for me that you helped, now I need to know how to make it wonderful for you too
etc . . .



Awwww, you sound like a person who needs to become more selfish! You do not feel loved and admired because you are spending all your time sacrificing. Can you change the habit of a lifetime and stop reacting to him as if he is your mother? I'm betting you absolutely can.

Yesterday this site wouldn't come up for me and I found the marriage advocate site which seems to use a lot of the mb principles. But on the site I came across articles about master/slave relationships and wow.. I am the slave in my mentality and here is what he says:



The Slave
To grow up, Slaves seek:
By far the trickiest to deal with are the Slaves. Slaves get their sense of worth either by being attached to �big people� or by taking care of others � or both. They frequently have no sense of self by themselves. In a way, they feed of others. They often encourage competent people to become tyrants. They certainly often encourage needy people to stay needy or become more needy. They experience shock when powerful people don�t give them orders, when needy people turn down their offers to help. A particular shock for Slaves is when you ask them about their point of view. They often tell stories about childhood, describe the behavior of all the people in a situation and never think to mention how they experienced the situation. This is the realm of codependency and it is very, very addictive. They seem to alternate between listening absorbingly to someone and doing things to take care of others.In order to mature, Slaves seek someone who will lovingly help them blossom: develop their sense of self � who are they. This is very hard work for them as they often put this development on hold when they were tiny children, and they have become very skilled at avoiding it. And so the person they seek must be lovingly patient and reliable. Oh, and this person must not act as a Master or a Passive-Master. And while all that is going on, they also need to learn the usual mature relationship skills: adult dialogical skills, patience, and good boundary skills.

Slaves:
You need to cut them off from �authorities who will tell them what to do� and from �needy people who will distract them. Guide them into self-responsibility. �I have to do that.� Al, �Hm. Who says? and why would you want to do what they say.��I failed. Did it wrong.� Al, �Oh. Who says it is wrong? What do you think?��Am I right?� Al, �You�ll have to decide that for yourself.��What should I do?� Al, �Damn, for me that is a hard one. What do you plan to do?��I don�t know.� Al, �Sure, but what is your guess or your best hunch?��I don�t want to upset my wife.� Al, �Yes, but is that what you are doing. Seems to me that what you are doing �to not upset her� is upsetting her.��He wants me to do it.� Al, �Ok. But what do you want to do?��I�m just trying to do the right thing.� Al, �Great! And what have you decided is right for you?��I don�t want to do the wrong thing.� Al, �Not to worrry. Whatever you do will be ok. Either it will work out well, or it�ll teach you a lesson. Can�t loose either way. So what�s your guess about what to do.��I can�t move till I know what is the right thing.� Al, �Yeah. I get stuck too, at times. Still got to go ahead. So what way are you leaning?��I have to take care of them.� Al, �Yes, I hear that. Of course, sometimes taking care of people isn�t the way to take care of them. Let�s look at it.�I worried what they will do.� Al, �Sure, but they will probably do what is best for them. That�s their job. What do you want to do about it?�

He nailed me. I want to have the right answer. The correct answer that doesn't make anyone upset. But I don't have a clue how to fix this...

TW, have you considered using Marriage Builders? I see you posting here alot but you don't use the program. Why? Surely you can see that it would be an improvement.

I want to point out something else that I see. Dr Harley very much advocates complaints in marriage. When your husband gives you a complaint, he is giving you valuable information. It is like getting a notice from the bank that you are overdrawn. You might not like getting the notice, but the alternative is worse. If you view it like that, you won't be so upset about his complaints.

Given that, your husband should not be making complaints in the form of CRITICISM. Read "complaints in marriage" in the newsletter section. You can share that with him. But you want to encourage him to tell him about the things that bother him, that is all part of radical honesty.

A complaint is an opportunity for improvement in a good marriage and an irritation in a bad marriage.

But, focusing on stuff like this is really a waste of your time and ours when you aren't even using the program. This program does not work when you pick and choose little parts in a vacuum. It all works together in a cohesive plan. You will get nowhere taking little bits and pieces.

For example, did you play the radio show for your husband? Have you signed up for the online program?

Making posts about your husbands comments about crumbs is a distraction from using the program, IMO. Do you want to be like other posters who come here for 10 years and their marriage never changes? I see you headed in that direction. Your marriage won't ever get better by coming here and making posts and never using the program. You have to use the program!

Oh my tired! You have really lost yourself. Seriously? Admiration doesn't feel like a real need? Are you kidding? It is a top EN for many (It's my wife's #3). I have to believe it is a HUGE need for you. Why don't you believe you deserve this?

I think you are on to something with this whole slave/master mentality. Are you ready to make a change? Until you change nothing will.

I guess I thought I was because I am trying to meet all of his EN's No, I just carry around the cd, but he isn't going to understand why I called and involved someone else. I throw up just thinking about trying to tell him.. How do I MAKE myself. It all seems logical when I am on here, but when I am with him it seems so silly.

Here is what I would say if I were in your situation:

"Honey, I have learned about a marriage program that, if followed by both spouses, leads to a very fulfilling marriage for both of us. The author states that it's possible for a marriage to be both romantic and passionate as long as these principles are followed. It's overall less expensive than counseling and has a potentially terrific outcome. I'd like for us to give it a try and see what we can build. Are you willing to give this a try with me?"

If he is not enthusiastic, keep it on the front burner by courteously bringing it up as a thoughtful request. Listen to the CD and start implementing on your own, as a way to prime the pump.

I can tell you that I had thought we had a pretty good marriage before my H's affair during deployment, but compared to what we have now...well, there really is no comparison whatsoever. We really did not meet each other's needs very well and had some love busters in the previous few years before deployment. Nothing enough to make us want to divorce, but we were living comfortably parallel lives.

And NOW: we spend at least 15 hours together every week, and we actually WANT to. These are the most enjoyable hours of our week. My H tells me daily how much he loves being with me. It did take some effort to get where we are now. He realized that in order for me to be in love with him and attracted to him, he had to lose some weight. He started working on that right away and it took some time, but the very effort was enough to get us started. He spent time talking with me and being affectionate, showing me his care for me. This led to me always being a willing participant in meeting his two greatest ENs, which are Sexual Fulfillment and Recreational Companionship.

We never dreamed that marriage could be this way. It's been nearly a year and a half since we signed up for the MB Online and our marriage is romantic and passionate in a way that we never dreamed could be possible after almost 33 years of marriage.

In MB Online, you and he would fill out a detailed worksheet regarding the need for Domestic Support (among others, of course.) You would get some assistance, if needed, to help your brainstorming efforts in how to meet your H's need for a deeper kind of cleaning. You both could be very happy in your marriage. That's a win/win.

Don't accept that response. You both need to learn how to POJA.

I did this back in August. I printed out parts of marriage builders for him. Someone in this thread or another one are what I did. Here is the letter I sent with him when he went on his first mission trip:
Dear
I love you. I�m going to miss you SO much while you are gone! Tell I said hello and he needs to come back with his whole family next time! I�ll be interested to see how God uses you in this assignment!
I have been enjoying our time together SO much over the last few weeks. Thank you for making an effort to fill my love bank! It hasn�t gone unnoticed. I feel closer to you than I have in a while!! Thank you SO much for making an effort!
I have run off a couple of excerpts from the Fall in Love and Stay in Love and Love Buster books. They cover the concepts of Undivided Attention, Policy of Joint Agreement (POJA), honesty and making career decisions. I know that I haven�t done a good job of following POJA all the time. If I think that I can�t get you to agree with something, then I just won�t bring it up and do it anyway. That isn�t good. I�m sorry for doing that. The chapter on honesty also struck a chord in me. If I am not honest about what is bothering me, then how can you fix it? I also think that spending undivided time together is important. I thought that you might have some extra time on the trip to read some of this.
I was wondering if you might be willing to consider doing an experiment. Would you be willing to try and spend the UA time and follow the POJA for 3 months? He suggests meeting on Sundays to talk over and plan the week. I would be curious to see if doing this also helps with your stress with your job. Speaking of which, you haven�t said much lately about it. I�m not sure if it is better or if you just don�t want to burden me with it. I do want you to continue to share your feelings about it with me. Together we can tackle anything! I love you and have enjoyed having fun with you the last few weeks! I �ll be counting the days until you return.

Your best friend

The problem is that since that time it has gone completely the other way and now I feel like we are back to where we started from.. Well, other than he finally did ask me out on a date last week. But the SF was totally gone and we are back to once a week or every other week instead of the 4 times I wanted. The admiration is gone. I guess I just need to speak up again. it was just SO hard for me to do the first time. Now I feel like I am nagging.

tired,

In your letter you didn't ask if he'd join you on the journey. You explained your part of the program you were trying to implement and you asked him about a couple of the parts of MB. But you never asked him to join you on the journey.
You two have an unhealthy dynamic and I don�t think you can teach other this program. You�re going to need some assistance. He needs to own his part of it. You can't be the one to "educate" him. Through one of the MB resources he will have his own parts that he'll need to complete.

First and foremost he needs to sign up for doing the program. He needs to feel invested in giving it a go. The best you can do is ask him to join you in participating in the program. But you do need to ask him straight out ... no beating around the bush like in the letter.

If he won�t join you you may consider going it alone. The good people here prodded me for years to talk with the MB counselors alone as I was unsuccessful in my poor attempts to get my wife involved. The counselors will coach you on how to bring in your spouse. I never made the commitment and floundered for years. I was fortunate in my latest attempt seeing my W had had enough of my withdrawal (and hers) that she agreed we needed to do something. It is going very, very well. I wish that for you.

Dr. Harley states that most of the time he is dealing with one reluctant spouse. But many times that reluctant spouse can be persuaded to give the program a try.

TW, I would just rip the scab off the wound and be forthright. Play the radio clip for him. I understand you are scared, but you can't allow fear to control your whole life. It will wreck your marriage.

So put aside your emotions and make a decision to be forthright with your husband. He sounds like a wonderful man who would be willing to make the necessary changes, if he KNEW what the problems were. Beating around the bush has not helped you in the past and it won't help you in the future.

MrAlias said it perfectly. Please listen to his advice. He is the poster child for not taking action and since he has taken action he has made amazing progress!

All this is worthless if it is not done within the context of this program. A little date here and there and some SF here and there is a distraction from following the program.

This program CANNOT BE CHERRY PICKED LIKE THAT. It is all or nothing. Go large or go home! As you can see, fiddling around the edges is a waste of time. As they say in AA, "half measures availed us nothing."

So exactly how does the counseling work? Would I just contact Steve and just go ahead and ask for 5 sessions. I hear they ask for sessions separately, so then that would leave 3 for us together? Is that correct? Of can I just sign up for 5 without telling my husband to just talk things over with Steve? ( I'm thinking it should be Steve and not Jennifer as he would be the one that could convince my husband and would come from a guy's perspective.)

Or if I give him the cd with the radio show on it, should I just ask him if he would please read HNHN and Love busters with me and we can talk about each chapter. I have every single book except buyers, renters and Surviving an Affair. I also have over 300 episodes of MB on my computer. I have about 10 of them tagged as ones that would be good for him to listen to.

I'm just not sure how the counseling works, not how to explain to hubby that I want to talk to this guy that specializes in affairs ( he says that 90 percent of his work is with those people)

FYI Jennifer does not offer the 5 session discount.

TW, I think in your case, you would benefit from counseling with Steve and then signing up for the online program. I would not do this on your own and I will tell you why. You are in the habit of not being open and honest with your husband and you need someone else to drive your program and motivate your husband.

Steve could sell the program to your husband and then you would be prepared to go through the online program. [where they assign you a coach and you have daily access to Dr Harley]

Dr Harley specializes in MARRIAGES, whether they had an affair or not. He is a marriage expert. In the counseling sessions, Steve breaks them up with 30 minutes for the wife and 30 minutes for the husband. Actually, he goes OVER quite a bit and I understand that he finishes his sessions when he is done, not necessarily when the hour ends.

Most men really like Steve. Dr Chalmers is also very, very good but your H might respond well to Steve, IMO.

I would start by playing the radio clip for your husband and then presenting a plan. What do you think?

Effective Marriage Counseling:

Does Marriage Builders Really Work?

When I found that the model I've developed had helped over 90% of those I was counseling, I gave up my career as a college professor and started counseling full-time. At the time, I didn't assume that it would save all of the marriages it seemed to help, because I felt there were factors beyond a couple's control. But after 35 years of experience with this model, I'm not convinced that it works with 100% of couples who follow it. I've yet to witness one couple out of the tens of thousands I've seen, that did not experience a healthy and happy marriage by following this model. Personally, I feel it's the only answer to the question, how can a couple have a great marriage for life?

But it's very difficult to prove that one model of marital satisfaction is superior to another. The ultimate test is to randomly assign couples to various models and to measure their marital satisfaction after the provisions of each model have been implemented.

The training of therapists is a huge problem: How can we be sure that the therapist assigned to each model was properly trained? And there's also the problem of representation and random assignment: Does the group of volunteer couples represent the population at large? And is the assignment to treatment groups really random? There's also the ethical problem of assigning couples to a control group where they receive no effective treatment. When they divorce, does the researcher bear any responsibility? Finally, if someone who has a stake in the outcome does the research, it usually shows that their approach is best. Shouldn't studies of alternative models of marital satisfaction be conducted by those neutral to the outcome?

My own personal experience led me to the model I've been using for the past 35 years. But that's not proof of it's superiority over other models. What I need is objective studies conducted by those who have no bias that compare this model to others. That's hard to find even among those who have published hundreds of articles on martial therapy.

But I can direct you to three studies that support my enthusiasm. They all deal with my book, His Needs, Her Needs, the popular application of my model, and the effect it has on couples that read it.

The readers of Marriage Partnership Magazine were asked which self-help book on marriage helped their marriages the most. In that survey, His Needs, Her Needs came out on top. I didn't know that the survey was even being conducted, so when I called the editor after the results came in, I was curious to know more. He told me that it not only was the top choice, but it was far ahead of second place (Ron R. Lee. Best Books for a Better Marriage: Reader's Survey . Marriage Partnership Magazine, Spring 1998).

In a national survey that I sponsored, people were asked if any self-help book on marriage solved their marital problems. Out of 57 books that were read, only three were reported to have actually solved marital problems. The three were the Bible, James Dobson's Love for a Lifetime, and His Needs, Her Needs (Lynn Hanacek Gravel. Americans and Marriage: National Survey of US Adults. Barna Research Group, 2001).

Finally, five out of six couples that read His Needs Her Needs were found to experience significant improvement in marital satisfaction (Julie D. Braswell. The Impact of Reading a Self-Help Book on the Topic of Gender Differences on One's Perceived Quality of Marriage. Doctoral Dissertation, 1998, Azusa Pacific University.

Granted, these findings are not conclusive evidence that the model I use is superior to every other model of marital satisfaction. But when you find one that works for every couple that actually follows it, you have to be impressed. And coming as I did from almost zero effectiveness to almost complete success, I can't begin to tell you how convinced I am that it's the solution to a very difficult problem we face in our society.

Your husband sounds like a guy that likes to stay busy.
What does he listen to when he drives? Talk radio or music?
Personally I have to listen to a book cd or talk radio when I drive. I consider music a waste of time.
If you get him the book on CD he may listen to it.

Ok, so we are talking around $1,000 for the counseling and $945 for the online program. Gulp.. I've never asked to spend that much money in my life... Ok, not quite. When my father died, I got $15,000 in life insurance and then had about $15,000 left in his checking account after bills were paid, funeral and burial expenses and I gave my sister her half. I asked him if he would mind my using 4 or 5 thousand of it to take my mom and sister on a girls trip to Disney. He agreed. ( That was the best, most fun trip btw and I'm so glad I did it while my mom was still healthy!!!)

We've used the rest of that checking account to fund mission traveling expenses, though there is still 5,000 left and my life insurance part is now worth 16,500. So maybe I will offer to pay for it out of that... Or he keeps asking me what I want for Christmas and my answer has been the same: I want time with you. I want a date with you each week.. So 52 dates this year. You should be proud of me. He has been a bit frustrated and asked me what he could buy for me and I have said, "Nothing. I want a date with you each week." However, sigh that hasn't stopped the packages from coming here addressed to him. It is the same every year. My pile is the hugest pile of presents. The kids always laugh because I am still opening long after they are... I should be grateful.. Most wives would kill for that.. Maybe I can ask him to just send back all of that stuff and just give me counseling.

One more question... I've come to realize that it is a lot about how dysfunctional I am. I mean when we dated I had a wart and I put a bandaid on it so he wouldn't see it for over 6 months. He still laughs about that. That right there should have told him a lot. Because my dad could go from laughing, to screaming in anger to lying in bed not wanting to get out in a space of 24 hours, I learned how to keep the peace, not cause waves at any cost. Now I've married my dad's opposite: Mr. Steady who never raises his voice. Can Steve fix me?????????

I've also got to figure out the time to talk about it.. This is the busiest week of my year. Tonight is my daughter's orchestra concert. My husband has an office meeting tomorrow night about the new building and I have the last adult/children's choir combined rehearsal. Thursday night I have the graduation meeting I am in charge of. Friday night hubby and the boys are going to the high school playoff game: they win this and they are in the state championship. Saturday my duaghter and I have dress rehearsal. Sunday morning we have the performance, at 2 pm is her violin recital and our Sunday School Christmas party is that night.

Whew...after that the only responsiblity I have is possibly something to sing Christmas Eve. So it will be next week, probably. Thankfully hubby isn't on call again until Christmas Day.

This is a behaviorally based program. You change your behaviors, and the emotions follow.

Dr. H talks about the approach occasionally durign the shows. Perhaps you can search for it and hear what he has to say.


Once you learn POJA, you will not be in knots trying to figure out how to ask your husband to spend a small portion of his earnings to enhance the most important thing in his life (his marriage). It goes like this: "I heard of a counselor who could help us make our marriage thrive more than we ever imagined. Would you be enthusiastic about giving it a shot?"
or "I would not be enthusiastic about a mountain of gifts for Christmas, but I would be enthusiastic about going out on weekly dates with you, how would you feel about that?"

I recommend the program. Your husband is obviously a very smart man; he will be a quick study.

opt

It only takes a brief few minutes to let the cat out of the bag. To open the door so to speak. Tear off that band-aid with one quick motion Tired. Just do it. Stop making excuses of things you have to do that will stop you from doing it. Procrastination is my middle name and I can tell you it doesn't work for anyone.

That does sound like a busy week. But I'm sure there will be a window of opportunity nearly everyone of those days to have a 5 or 10 minute conversation with your hubby. He may need a little more time if he's to listen to your radio show but he can't schedule time to listen to it if he doesn't know about it.

I'm all for you doing it tonight. nudge nudge

As far as paying for the counseling you tell him it is important to you and the marriage. Get his agreement and then you two negotiate as a team on how to pay for it.

It won't take long to tell him what you are thinking about. Then he can consider the situation on his own, if not right away.

The best time to talk about the most important thing in your life is....immediately.

opt

But I've NEVER been able to do that. Even when we were dating, it would take us hours of him saying, "What's wrong?" "Nothing" "What's wrong" "Nothing" "What's wrong" Then I would cry and release it all. But that was only after several hours of talking.. I have to feel completely and utterly safe. I just don't know how I am going to do this..

Tired, is that you want your kids to learn from your example, that you can't ask a spouse for things, because you don't "deserve" to? Courage is feeling fear and doing it anyway.

If you're not sure, and that's the reason you don't ask, then come out and say it. But if it's really the fear of talking to him, then send him an email, or find some other way you are enthusiastic about being honest with him.

I agree with NED.
This is why you need to learn the program. You will soon see that your responses illustrated above are not following the policy of radical honesty. When you learn to be open and honest, you will be communicating with your spouse on an entirely new level.

Your husband makes life and death decisions daily. Give him an opportunity to make decisions that will benefit you both and your family. I believe you will be happy you did.

opt

BTDT. Both my wife and I have/had this problem. Until you come to some agreement on the way you two are going to communicate you are going to have this problem. But Tired once you get this out in the open and you see that you and him can negotiate as a unified team would negotiate you will feel liberated � and ELATED. This is fresh for me. It is what has just happened with my W and I in the last few weeks. Today I feel a lot less fearful when broaching sensitive topics. Edited to add:

You fear your H�s response. That is a horrible feeling. The only way you�re going to get past that is to trust that he�s capable of working with you to come to agreeable terms. That he loves you enough that he�d be willing to do it. Right now you�re LB�ing him by keeping things from him that he needs to know. Dishonesty and DJs. Guess what my first LB was that I discovered with the help of Dr. Chalmers. You guessed it.

You have to work your side of the program Tired.

You need an opening line that will break the ice. Tell him, send him an email, leave it on a post-it note � something. I texted my wife. It was probably the hardest thing I�ve done in I don�t know how long. But as soon as I sent it I felt so much better.

How about this:
�Hon. I fear being honest with you. I am having a tough time but I don�t feel safe trying to work through the conflict. Right now I�m dreading making this statement. I need help being able to communicate openly and honestly. �

I bet you he will be floored and totally clueless.

And if he shows concern, which I�m sure he will, you can bring to the table your options of what you�d like to do. You need help being able to communicate with your H. The dynamic in your home makes it almost irrefutable you need help from a 3rd party.

Ah the what's wrong/nothing go around. I used to be so bad about this too before I found marriage builders. I was afraid of conflicts. After finding MB I realized some things. This go around led my DH to be very frustrated knowing I wasn't being honest that when the spill finally came it didn't go well at all. DH dreaded and said he did the spill out that eventually came because of the way it came so it was a major LB experience for him. Avoidance just made it build up in me until it just kinda exploded out in a very not nice and productive way. Most importantly this round never solved anything. The not being radically honest of course didn't solve anything, because DH didn't know what the problem was. The LB filled explosion didn't solve anything because DH didn't hear a word because he felt attacked. I realized the conflict I was scared of was one that I was making on my own.

Following MB I learned how to respectfully bring up problems and solutions. Granted I'm still learning and really have to stop and think about what I want to say, how I should say it, and solutions that may work before bringing it to DH. When I do this though it leads to solutions. DH hears what I have to say.

If you and your DH follow the plan you will learn how to make it a safe, love building experience. You are the one here though and you must be the one to model it and sell it to your DH.

My letting it all out was more like, "I've only seen my parents. How can we make this work? What if I won't make a good wife?"

They were never blaming type things. It was just crying and I need reassured kind of thing. We never fought when we were dating. Rarely fight now.

My W and I never fought. Not directly. We both clammed up and did the passive aggressive stuff. Sighing, stomping around upset, being grumpy all the time, no welcome homes, etc.

Does it really matter what you did in the past when you let it out? Nope. It�s time to move forward. What can we do to help you do that?

Grin, if I didn't know better I would swear this was Melody talking!!!!!! I'm not sure. Just pray that I gain some courage.

Tired, I empathize. I really do. I was where you are for years and years. I'd come here and get some courage and make some attempts ... only to struggle. We'd make some small improvements but mostly I just continued to feel like I wasn't getting enough out of the M.

I now have my W on board and I no longer fear our conversations. I really, really, really look forward to them. And we've only been working together on MB for about 3 weeks.

I was so withdrawn but man the feelings come rushing back once you start to see and feel the safety that this program provides.

We are a team and you will have that soon. You just need to let your hubby know you don�t feel like a team.

Melody and I may have some similarities but I think we have some very distinct differences. Uhm. She's a female and I'm a male for starters. LOL.

Melody is direct. She doesn't beat around the bush. Her messages are clear and they cut to the point. They are REALLY hard to hear at times (especially for a pigheaded guy like myself) but she�s spot on. She�ll tell you stories of how difficult of a nut I was to crack. And I�ve been here for years. Thanks for hanging in there with me Mel.

Don�t feel bad you don�t have the courage. It�s hard to face those fears.

Analogy. You don't feel deserving of spending the money on the counseling. I know that. I'm basically the bread winner in the family although my wife works ... and my biggest fear in asking to get MB counseling was spending the money. I feared her response. I pictured her saying �Are you kidding me? It costs how much?????�. What a DJ jerk I was. I didn�t give her the credit she deserved. Instead I sat there in my own fears blaming a fictitious wife as the reasons to avoid even asking.

BTW my opening statement to my wife was nothing more than a text message that said this:

"I am very unhappy in our marriage and would like to do something about it. Would you be interested in seeing a counselor?".

Keep it short and make no accusations. Just simply communicate your feelings of unhappiness and present an option for change.

Ok, one last question ( I think) and then after today I won't post again until after I have talked to him. Knowing my husband, the researcher, he will want to explore all the options. Example, when we buy a car ( which isn't that often..we drive ours into the ground...got rid of his 20 year old Honda Accord only because our son needed a safer car to drive) he first of all will spend a couple of months researching the different types of cars. Then he will narrow it down to a couple like the Honda Accord and Toyota Corolla ( whatever the equivilent was/is Then we will spend WEEKS test driving each one SEVERAL times. Then after he has decide on the actual car,he then researches what is a fair price to get one and the techniques he needs to use to get the best deal( websites, message boards, articles) He finds out what people have actually paid. Then he goes in and negotiates and gets the price he wants for the car.

It is like that for just about everything we purchase. He has mellowed a little bit. Our microwave went out last summer and he just went on consumer reports for an hour or so and decided the one at Walmart that was like our other one would be as good as any other one.

But, I know that he will come here and research... He might present other options for therapists, though I doubt it. Steve would be good because he doesn't know my husband. My husband doesn't work with him so he has nothing to be embarressed about. I do think he will wonder about the infidelity, but I can tell him he has helped others.

Now...he will obviously come here on the forum if we do the online class.... Which presents a huge problem for me...Gulp, I've only ever talked about my marriage here ***EDIT***. He would be so completely appalled at how much detail I've gone into here. He is a very, very private person. Which has been part of my struggle. I have no one to talk to about what I am going through. No one except yall have any idea I'm going through this: no one at church, my mom, my homechooling friend, etc NO ONE. I made a vow when I got married that if I had a problem, I would talk to him and not someone else.. Except then I just bottled everything up. I really don't want him to read what I wrote.....

My parents never really said no to anything I wanted when I was a teenager for a couple of reasons. I knew what my limits were and was quite happy with them. And if I wanted to do something that I thought they might not want me to, I figured out all of their arguments against it and made a list of logical reasons that counteracted them. So I like going into it with ways to argue in my favor.

I might ask a follow up question if you answer this one, but otherwise I'll talk to you on the other side.

There is no other program and no other counselors around that have the success rate this program has. I would hazard a guess that the success rate where infidelity isn't the issue the success rate is astounding. Now where you'll find that information I'm not sure . Maybe others can provide some data on it.

As far as you backing this program your reasonings can simply be that you believe this to be the best program for you. That you�ve read enough about the goal of this program and it describes exactly how you want your M to operate. And there is no one better to coach you through it then the people that have lived and breathed it�s concepts (Steve and Jennifer). He can over-analyze it if he wants. You simply state this is the one you are enthusiastic about. Then negotiate with him. What would he need to be enthusiastic about trying some of the MB resources?

As far as him reading what you wrote. You have nothing to hide. These are your thoughts and feelings at the moment. There is no need to explain yourself. It is your perspective. If you aren�t allowed your perspective then I�d suggest you question if your spouse is marriage material.

I often wonder what my W would think if she came back and read some of my posts. But I�m no longer concerned. Even if she read something that she felt was stretching the truth or me posting things she remembers differently. It�s nothing more than a difference of perspective and we don�t have to remember or see everything exactly the same way. So if she does read and questions what I�ve said I�ll simply state that that is in the past and I am so glad we�re moving on to the future.

Do yourself a favor. Stop over analyzing him. That�s great detail you go towards to describe his behavior. He sounds pretty normal to me. LOL.

No, but the lady in the mirror can. You can choose to stop being a conflict avoider TODAY. No one else can do that but YOU.


More conflict avoidance. He can't solve the problem if you won't tell him. Don't ask at all if you are going to beat around the bush. You will just be wasting your time.

The failure rate for marriage counseling is 84% according to one well published [and peer reviewed] study. Marriage counselors have a higher divorce rate than the general population and are destructive to marriages. Marriage Builders is completely different from other programs in that it focuses entirely on restoring the romantic love. There is no other program that does that. Traditional marriage counseling and other programs focus on "communication" and "conflict avoidance," which does nothing to restore the marriage. Even the best communicators end up divorced if they are not in love.

Traditional marriage counselors typically counsel couples in conflict together, which makes the problem even worse. The couple spends the hour citing criticism of the other, and they leave in worse shape than they went in..

TW, if you can't swing MB coaching, you would be better off doing nothing. REally.

p.s. if your husband comes here, you can ask the mods to remove your threads.

What would he wonder about the infidelity? Every marriage counselor has to deal with a large volume of infidelity cases BECAUSE 50-60% of couples experience infidelity. The way you save a marriage is the same whether or not there has been infidelity. They all use the SAME basic concepts. The only difference in an affair situation is that there might be relocation to get away from an affair partner.

Another key difference between MB and other programs is that Dr HArley doesn't just claim his program works. He gives the couples continual TESTS to find out if it is working. Anyone can just SAY their program works, but Harley MEASURES his success. He gives his couples a test in the beginning to record the level of romantic love and compatibility in the marriage. He does this continually throughout his program. So, if he sees a couple is not progressing, he find out why and make a course correction.

Tired, I hope you're just extremely busy and not avoiding us.

If you're not ready to talk to your H yet that's understandable. I hope we can help you gameplan your approach once you find the courage you need.

TW, I noticed your comments on NYCRunner's thread. Have you made any progress to the other side?

We are still marking time.

Yes.. I'm a little hesitant to post much about it, though... I guess it got to the point where I couldn't keep it inside and I told him that I couldn't tell him what I really thought and slept on the couch. He was very upset the next morning. I wrote him a letter and put the cd of the show in the car that day. I put in the article Mr. Alias put in about conflict avoiders. I was completely honest about how unhappy I was.. how lonely I was.

He came home that night angry, ver very sad and scared.. He thought I wanted him to move out or that I was saying the marriage was over. He even asked me if I thought someone else could make me happy.. ( The answer was NO... I wanted us to be close. There never has been nor ever will be anyone but him. He has been and always will be the love of my life.) He couldn't believe that I would talk to a radio show and not to him.. He just couldn't understand that at all and didn't understand at all what I really wanted.

And that is all I am going to say about the details. I am working on telling HIM what is going on in my head instead of sharing with anonymous people on the internet. Suffice to say that he HEARD me.. I HEARD his heart and we are working together as a team again. One thing I suggested is that we have a time at least once a week where I share what I am struggling with or fear or whatever. He is so transparent that he always tells me everything and all his struggles. It is much, much harder for me. But I am going to work on it.

I'll post on other threads, but probably won't post much on this one.... As I said, I need to work with HIM..

That's 99% of the battle right there tired. Good for you. Be sure you use that time each week to be completely transparent ... no matter how hard it is. He deserves that.

There will be bumps along the way, there will be times where the usual ways you work together show up. Where the dysfunction that feels so "normal" will appear. Recognize it and change the behavior.

I must say I feel so much better being radically honest with my W.

Update

Last week he initiated a date and we made hot chocolate and drove around looking at Christmas lights.

This week he took me out to eat and to see Les Mis (One of my all time favorite musicals and stories.. You clearly see rules and justice without mercy vs the grace of God and showing that grace to others) We started talking about where we should eat and we had just about decided on our favorite restauraunt.. He said don't let the kids know.. then he said, "I have an idea.. no wait..bad idea..never mind." I asked him what and he said, "I was going to suggest the kids take their own car to the Mexican food place and then they could just come back home instead of to the movie. But I forgot.. this is about us..no kids allowed.." I grinned at him. "I'm trying to be better!!" I then mightily praised him and told him how awesome he has been doing.. He always comes in now and greets me first with a great big and long hug and kiss before he talks to the kids. He has been texting me and calling me to check on me and tell me how much he loves me... Which has meant a lot this week since he got some kind of bug and felt HORRIBLE!!

Anyway, yeah hubby!!!

Happy for you TW.

to Mr. TW.

Aww. So glad to hear that Tired.

How are you doing with your openness and honesty? Are you able to discuss many more things?

Ok, althought then that causes disagreements. Here is a situation that happened before we left on vacation:

I told him that one thing that I didn't like about our vacations is that it was hard for me to enjoy them because I was always on edge, scared to death that I had made a mistake that I had done something he wouldn't like or agree with. So I suggested that he go over the plans/reservations together so we could handle any disagreements. So for this trip, I printed everything out for our vacation: all hotel reservations, tickets, google map directions etc and he was home yesterday afternoon for me to go over it with him. He thought it looked good.

So far so good until we went to bed (night before we left) and he asked me questions about the hotel we are staying at the first night..good questions and I guess I did not check like I should have ( Expedia booked a 2 double bed room for us for tonight.. I put in there 5 people and they normally don't do that unless a rollaway is possible,but it doesn't say so on the sheet. I thought we wanted a hotel close to the airport since we get in at midnight and will basically just sleep and then drive to his sister's house when we wake up.. My other reservation is a condo with beds for everyone, kitchen, etc and he thought I had booked a suite for tonight.. Ony now it is nonrefundable. IF he had noticed it the afternoon we went over it, I could have fixed it!!!!

Anyway, he just kept hammering me with questions at which point I left to go to the playroom and cry. I normally would have kept it to myself but I also couldn't trust myself to say anything because I thought the whole purpose of us going over the reservations. He later said that when we went over it, he say inn and suites and assumed we had a suite. He couldn't understand what was wrong.. "I'm not mad.." he said.
But this makes me feel like a failure. See I'm always waiting for the one detail I screwed up. "But I told you no big deal, it is just for one night." Oh yes, but after you hammered me with all of these questions about why didn't I think of....To me, it seemed condescending when you say, well we'll just deal with it since you screwed up... He said that is not how he meant it at all... Oh and somewhere in there I said that I just wanted to enjoy the vacation and just have fun. At which point he said that is all I care about anymore having fun and that what he does is never good enough..

Later we talked about that it isn't so much my having fun..it is that I am so tired of being SO stressed.. I'm a 45 year old woman who still bites her nails, who cannot sleep for more than 4 or at the most 5 hours at a stretch, who is lives in fear of making mistakes.. To which he said, You need to learn to just go with the flow.. I'll be honest, I don't know how.. He told me to just relax with the plans that his sister may want to do something completely different.. Which honestly is fine, then it is HER fault. I told him my favorite positions are being 2nd in command. As music chairman, the buck stops with the music minister. I have power, I make plans, but the buck stops with him. Or when I did MOPS.. I was assistant co-ordinator. My friend had a all the headaches and I was there to point out things she forgot or to pitch in and I still did a ton, ran some meetings and such, but the stress wasn't there because the buck didn't stop with me.

He apologized about how he brought up the problem with the reservation and acknowledged that he should have looked closer yesterday afternoon and that it was one night and not so big a deal.. and he could see how the way he brought up the questions made me feel attacked. He reitterated how much he appreciated my planning our vacations and what a good job I do.. I told him that I just need to figure out how to not feel like I have completely ruined our vacation if I make a mistake ( which there is always something I have forgotten every single time.. I really need a second in command to be checking my details like I have done with the music minister..I'm the one that remembers all of the picky details.)

At the same time somehow I don't want him to feel like a failure. He told me that lately he feels like all I am saying is I have such a horrible life and I just want to have fun.. Which isn't what I mean. He doesn't feel like what he does for me is good enough...

I told him part of it was me working out my place right now.. I told him about how when I was pregnant with our first child that I worked full time, gave teacher inservices on critical thinking, was head sponsor for the senior class, sang in adult choir, played in the bells and taught Sunday school. I felt valuable. ( Though the though of all of that makes me extremely tired. I couldn't keep up that pace now, nor would I want to.) He said keeping up with our three isn't busy enough? I said, no.. Right now my two boys are VERY self-sufficient. They do their own laundry, drive themselves where they need to go, make their own dentist, eye appointment, they can cook when they need to.. ( Now if they would only clean their bathroom, I would have really trained them for their future wives.. oh and middle one just sleeps on his mattress as he is too lazy to really make his bed... poor wife someday.) They keep up with their dual credit and online classes. I've worked myself out of a job ( which is as it should be!)

But I need him to help me brainstorm about what I can be involved in that would make me feel valuable and needed and fuflilling God's calling. But it has to be an activity that can work around all of our vacations and mission trips.... That is what is hard. My husband was SO busy in residency and working tons ( many rotations were call every other night which meant that he left at 5 or 6 in the morning, didn't come home that night and got home at 7pm the next night and repeat...)


So yes, honesty is working but it seems like it is causing more problems sometimes..

BTW, we had a GREAT vacation that we all really enjoyed..

Sorry, I wrote this the day before we left and tried to edit. This happened December 30th. We went on our 2 week vacation and had a good time, but that is why it may be confusing to read.

Tired,

Thanks for the update.

I read through your post and am a little confused. When you say it causes disagreements and problems � what are those?

To me this sounded like some open discussion and honesty � and yes some conflict. But that�s how you resolve issues. You can�t avoid conflict and expect to resolve them.

It seems you felt attacked and you both talked it over. That�s good.
He let you know later on that he wasn�t upset over the parts he would have liked to be different. That�s good honest feedback too.
You felt attacked enough to have to leave the room. That may have been a good time to try to tell him what you were feeling. Leaving the room doesn�t help but if in the heat of the moment it�s what you have to do that�s OK. You were able to come back to all of this later and talk about it. That�s good too.

Did you reach any conclusions to this scenario? When you talked about it later did you discuss alternatives that you could try should something like this happen again?

I must ask �
Is this a matter of you being overly sensitive or him being extremely rude and/or badgering in the way he delivered his questions or maybe a combination of both? What do you think?

I agree the time for him to ask such questions was when you sat down to go over the accommodations � but things do get lost in communications and I don�t know that it�s a bad thing that he asked more questions later on. As long as his tone and approach weren�t attacking and/or you were able to communicate when the discussion was beginning to feel uncomfortable.

You typed this �

Is that what he said or what you heard in your head?


Did you talk about ways you could discuss this so you don�t feel attacked and he doesn�t feel like a failure? Sounds like an opportunity to find a WIN/WIN don�t ya think?

I guess part of it is that I never want either of us to ever be upset or to ever disagree, which I realize is unrealistic but I don't know how to not feel that way.

Yes, we negotiated a solution about him looking closer at the arrangements. We had already POJA that I would like him to look over all the arrangements before trips so that he could catch any mistakes/clarify what he wanted. So it really upset me that we did that and he STIL FOUND A MISTAKE. Plus, he wouldn't leave it alone, which is why I got up and left. He kept saying, "Where is ...supposed to sleep? We can't get our money back ( no, not now but if you had caught this when I asked you to look it over, we could have) "Why did Expedia let you book this?" "Are you sure there is a trundle?" "We could have gone farther away from the airport.." At which point he said, "It's ok, we'll just deal with it." in a very exasperated tone of voice... Then he asked me more questions like asking questions would make him understand why I made this silly mistake or something. I don't know, but I had already apologized and gave honest answers and I was really feeling like I was being attacked and that is when I left.

Later in our discussion, he apologized and said the way he did it was bad. I am also oversensetive. I mean one reason I asked for him to look over all the arrangements is to prevent this from happening.

As far as him not feeling like a failure..no.. Exactly what would I say in this discussion.... I apologized for making him feel like that.. But he has really felt attacked. In fact, I've avoided mention of marriage builders because he HATED HATED the radio show with me on it. It made him really upset...

It sounds to me like he nitpicks you death, which would naturally make you feel bad. That sounds like he was grilling you. That is probably why you feel like walking on eggshells with him. I can't imagine living like that.

But having conflicts is part of marriage. You will always have them. What matters is HOW you handle them. Like Dr Harley says "Joyce and I have a conflict every hour."

When did your husband listen to the radio show? And what did he "hate" about it?

He listened to the show when I wrote him the letter and left the cd in his car a week or so before Christmas. I asked for us to do counseling, preferably with Steve. He thought that I was saying our marriage was over and that I wanted somone else.. ( I still don't get how he got that..)

He could not believe that I went on the radio to talk about our marriage. I did tell him in the letter that I had been posting on marriage boards as well, but he hasn't ever brought that up but I'm sure he wouldn't like me posting here either.. Joyce really irritated him by saying how wonderful and perfect he was.. He says he is tired of everyone saying that.. If I was so wonderful, then my marriage wouldn't be in the toilet and why in the world would she call a radio show if I'm so wondeful.. Why couldn't you just talk to me about it????? He also said that it made it sound like he was supposed to worship me and he couldn't do that. He couldn't plan dates and tell me over and over and over how wonderful I was... He also thinks all I want to do is have fun... which is true except that I want to have fun with him... THAT is what I want. He says life can't be fun all the time. ( Which I agree with.)

The other thing that made him really mad was the part about the mission trip... They did get that wrong in that he did that with my consent. We've both gone TOGETHER to that place and we are going as a family in May.. I just couldn't figure out what to do with the kids this time, so that is why I didn't go.

As far as nitpicking..he didn't over vacation. We had a wonderful time and actually had some UA time ( took walks around the lake together at my sil's house and spent one day upstairs, making love and talking while the children blissfully enjoyed ESPN and Disney channel on their repective tv's ( we don't have cable at our house, so they were in heaven!!!) It was such a nice vacation and so relaxing..

So what is your plan to fix your marriage?

For us to spend as much time as possible together..shooting for the 15 hours.

For me to fill his EN.

To be radically honest about how he is filling my EN which btw has been SO much better!!!! As I mentioned after the huge talk after my letter, he asked me out and planned a date each week even a really busy week when he caught a bug and felt lousy. Then we had this vacation. He texts me and tells me how much he loves me all the time. He will stop in the middle of his chores and give me a HUGE hug and kiss. Sex has been wonderful and slower..and more often. If any of this should wane, I will calmly ask him to reinstate it and that I need it.

To address all love busters immediately. He hasn't nitpicked since that day before the vacation, but if he does then I will say so. Tomorrow I will ask for your help for a love buster that I committed on the vacation. He didn't say anything, but I know it bugged him.

To be radically honest about how I feel. Which right now is GREAT!!! I actually slept through the night for all but one night over the last 2 weeks... I cannot remember a time when I have slept that well. ( Long before kids.) Most of the time I go to bed at 9 or 10 and then wake up at 2 or 3 and then just go ahead and get up.. He joked this morning that he can't believe he has been waking up with me being beside him again.. I feel so much better. I've kept up the exercise and only gained 1 pound over the holidays/vacation which I think is a HUGE victory!!!!

This week UA time will be hard. He is on county call today and this weekend. Next week will be much better and I already have a date planned. The boys will be at a youth disciple now weekend and I'm working on making arrangements for our daughter to spend the night somewhere else at least one night that weekend. There is an RV show in town and so I thought we would go and dream about our retirement rv..

I know that one of the things that drives hubby crazy is when I get flustered.. I don't know how to fix it. Here is an example of it from our vacation:

We had an hour and twenty minute layover between our flights home. However, our first flight was delayed and we ended up with 30 minutes. We had to change terminals as we went from a big jet to a commuter jet. I kept inwardly telling myself that it was ok.. If we missed it, we would wait for the next one. We are all together, it doesn't matter. At the same time there are only 3 flights a day to our home airport ( one gate, very small) so there might not have been room for the 5 of us on the next flight. Plus, our friends who were taking care of our dogs had a problem. It was stormy and 2 out of the 3 dogs ran inside and they couldn't get them out of my son's room. ( They were growling at them.) So they shut them in there.. they were stuck in there for about 24 hours before another friend of mine got them out.. So they had pooped, peed and chewed things in my 17yo's room.... I really wanted to see what the damage was. Plus our new roof leaked while we were gone and though the company supposedly fixed it again ( turns out they didn't) it had rained a bunch, so I wanted to get home and make sure it was ok..

So I am trying hard not to get uptight, but I am.. I am deep breathing and telling myself to be calm. We are running through the airport and get on the tram that takes you to the next terminal and my daughter is a little behind us and I yell at her to hurry up.. Hubby looks at me and says, "It is ok." Middle son is saying, "Good grief, mom, she's right there. Calm down." Hubby gives him a look to be quiet. He hates a scene and I know that my reaction caused one. But that was it.

Now, that is all he said. He never said anything else or brought it up. Yet, I know that this is a major love buster for him. He can't stand it when I get like that. For me, though it was rather mild. Before this I would have been muttering on the plane about how we were going to miss our flight, etc.

So I thought I might bring this up tonight and ask him how I can not do this in the future. Any ideas on how I can not get so panicked? Seriously, my heart pounds and races...

When you figure it out let me know as this is an issue I have with my W as well.

I read that and thought OMW that is Mrs. Alias.

I think many of us have that cracking under pressure behavior. I know I've been guilty of it occassionally. It's always hard to be cool under pressure.

I know my W has been taught those breathing exercises which helps her deal with her anxieties. It sounds like you do something similar.

TW,

I can relate to your airport experience, living near a tiny airport myself!

Have you talked about the incident since then with your husband? Maybe in his perception it is not as huge a lovebuster as you are perceiving it. Radical honesty might lead to a useful discussion?

My take on it (as a family doc dealing with anxiety A LOT, even though I don't have it myself) is that people are born with certain tendency toward anxiety, some a lot (you?) and some very little (your husband?). Kind of like being tall or short, you have a tendency that can be influenced by environment also. Sometimes I think the hardest part for anxious people is trying to pretend they are not.

Not sure if this is acceptable in TOS (feel free to delete if not), but I often recommend to my patients books by Russ Harris, particularly the Happiness Trap, which recommends accepting that you feel a certain way, yet controlling how you act on those feelings and learning to live in the present. In other words, not expecting yourself not to feel anxious. I think it would be considered compatible with Dr. Harley's philosophies.

I think in that instance at the airport , it would have meant allowing yourself to feel anxious, yet controlling the urge to yell at your daughter. Other options for anxiety of course, taking medication or seeing a counselor to learn more anxiety controlling techniques. But yours does not seem that bad?

As an aside, I do have memories of running through O'hare to catch a commuter plane, urging my 3 yo son to run, run, when all he wanted to do was sit down (or be carried). He is now 25 yo and loves to travel. No lasting bad effects.

hi tw. i'm just going to pass on something that helps me with travelling. i hate flying (scared chitless), and i'm very controlling (i like things scheduled all in advance and ready to go). neither of these things go with travelling.

so...when my dd was a little girl, i got into the habit of saying "we're on an adventure." i did it at first to help her not feel my stress. but then, it turned into kinda a mantra for me. whenever i travel now, i always think to myself: it doesn't matter what happens, because we're on an adventure. this really helps my mindset and alleviates my stress (ok, not all of it. still have to have 2 double vodkas and valium to get on the plane, but still!).

when i think "adventure," it doesn't seem to matter when things don't go the way they're supposed to when travelling. got tagged by the dog in customs - not to worry, part of the adventure! international plane 3 hours late and missed connecting flight - it's ok, it's part of the adventure!

it also helps me to prep for contingencies to alleviate potential stressers. going to have a long layover w/child in tow - took taxi to nearby amusement park for afternoon, then planned to eat at airport restaurant, have a good browse in duty-free, use all my leftover coins for the massage chairs.

long layover w/just husband, who doesn't like to read. ripped dvd of a tv show we both like to my tablet, brought headphones (we shared, nice & cosy), and we spent some time watching the episodes.

i *know* i'm going to be over on luggage, so instead of getting stressed over it, i budget for the cost of excess luggage and just ask for it directly when i check in (confronting problem head on w/solution = no stress).

my H is a real hothead. having two of us like that used to make travelling a bit of a hassle (/understatement). but my adventure attitude has helped not just alleviate my stress, but eases the hassles for him as well. i'm now a calming influence on him, rather than gas to the fire.

of course, the caveat is that my H doesn't nitpick. that is something you'll have to work on with your husband. i just wanted to let you know that you *can* change your thinking, and consequently, your reactions to issues when travelling. if i can do it, anyone can!

I like the adventure.. I'll have to try that. For our last mission trip, I had a good time because other people planned it and i just went where they told me to and trusted God to take care of the details. No one was relying on me. One thing that made this vacation so enjoyable is that over half of it we were with my sister in law's family and she was in charge. So it plans went wrong, it wasn't my fault!!!! And the second half was nice as well. In our talk, hubby told me that a lot of pressure was from me, but I don't think he realizes how his reactions affect me.. He will see it as no big deal, statement of fact. I take it as condemning... I will really try to point it out exactly when it happens like I did last time, so he can understand instead of keeping it bottled up.

As far as being prepared.. you are talking to the queen!!! For instance, hubby didn't understand why I had my and the kids' backpack stuffed full of snacks ( We'll just buy what we need there.) However, we flew on Christmas Eve and at 8pm for our connection almost all the airport fast food places were closed!!! I thought we were going to have the snacks I brought for dinner. However, he managed to find some sandwhiches somewhere so we did have dinner. But I am the one that is prepared for every single contingency!!!

tired ... are you sure you aren't Mrs. Alias in disguise?

I can remember talking to my sister whom we were going to go on a short little cabin run with her, my BIL and my family. Mrs. Alias was asking me to ask my sis all kinds of planning type questions.

My sister finally got tired and just said "OMW. That's way too much planning. We like to fly by the seat of our pants. It makes for a more enjoyable time.� Which is how I like to think of it � but not Mrs. Alias.

For my wife I�m sure most of this stems from her anxiety issues. Sometimes something as simple as a two day run to the upper part of the state becomes quite the ordeal. The difficult part for me becomes finding a way that I am still going to enjoy it while her fears/concerns are taken into account.

For me I always think � things have a way of working themselves out.
Her? Nope. We need a plan.

Your anxieties come from a fear of his potential disappointment. You need to POJA his responses / his reactions to these types of situations. Maybe it�s something as simple as him starting his statements with �It�s no big deal and I�m not upset. I do think we learned next time we need to �.�.

Yes, but isn't it funny.. In our marriage I'm the one that is fighting tooth and nail saying it needs to be better and in your marriage you are!

He always SAYS he isn't upset but his actions seem to say something different like the hotel reservation above.. But at the same time, that is one thing that happened 3 weeks ago. It isn't like this kind of stuff happens every day. Something did happen last night, but I'll explain later because this morning he was great..

I have to run to church activities but I will brag on him more about some stuff that happened last night.. I think he is finally understanding and putting us more of a priority. I am trying to really compliment it whenever he does it and tell him how much it means to me!!!

I look forward to hearing you brag on him.

Hubby has just really been making me feel like I am a priority. Whether it is texts he sends me or greeting me first when he comes in instead of the kids and really cuddling with me...

So Monday he is on call, so I know there will be no fooling around but I cuddle with him anyway telling him I know that. The next morning he tells me how nice it was and we playfully talk about what will happen that night.. Fast forward to that night.. My back flares up. Every since I've been in high school a couple of times a year, my back just kills me..I can't breathe.. Hubby thinks it is because I'm having spasms. So I normally take a muscle relaxer and a hot bath. That helps a lot and the next day I'm sore but after that I'm fine. I can't figure out what causes it. It happens 2 or 3 times a year maybe.

So my back is killing me and I thought I was out of medicine. ( If I take it when I first feel the twinge, it is MUCH better.) Hubby has an office meeting and doesn't get home until 7. The boys have downloaded the newest Tim Hawkins video ( Christian comedian) and hubby and oldest are trying to figure out how to stream something from the computer through our new blue ray... Problems... So they spend the next 2 hours trying to figure it out.. I find the medicine but by this time I'm really hurting and a little irritated as we were supposed to "have fun." But at the same time, I don't really feel like "having fun.." I take a hot bath and crawl into bed. Hubby finally does too and cuddles but that is it. I'm not sure whether to be relieved or irritated....

So here is the brag... Next morning he apologizes to me for getting so wrapped up in getting the technology to work when we had talked about doing stuff with each other. I accepted his apology but added that with my back, I wasn't in the best of moods either. ( I apologized later to my middle child for snapping at him several times for asking legitimate questions... Told him my back hurt, but that was no excuse to be rude. ) Hubby then said he should have rubbed my back for me ( which really helps when it hurts) that night and would I still like for him to do it that night ( YES!!!!!) So last night he did and we had our fun together as well. He is taking me out to dinner tonight also..

I don't know.. it has just been so nice going to bed and waking up together over the last several weeks. It has probably been over 15 years since I've gotten this much uninterupted sleep. I need to change my name from tiredwife as I'm not really tired anymore...

Still major work issues, but we are working on them together.. It just feels so nice to feel like his heart is turned toward mine! I do wish he felt joy about his job, though... or that he would figure out exactly what God wants him to do...

That is a very nice update "no longer tired".

I wanted to chime in and empathize with you. I, too, have back spasm issues. It happens when my lower vertebrae slide out of position even just slightly. I am currently doing some back exercises to strength the muscles. To quote the therapist to minimize (sorry it will never be fixed) the amount of slippage.

When the discs slip the muscle spasm trying to protect the spine. It is VERY VERY painful and I know what you mean about not being able to breathe. When it's really bad I am totally imobilized for a period of hours. I just have to lay still until the spasm calms down and then head straight to the shower for the wet, warm heat ... which helps the most.


It sucks and happens at the weirdest moments. Not when I'm lifting heavy objects but rather when I stoop. Getting a pot from the lower cupboard, washing my car and bending to get down low, addressing the golf ball was my latest experience (that really sucks as I play a LOT of golf).

Things are going well here. I continue to be able to sleep!! HOORAY!!! Hubby has been doing a great job of meeting my needs. He took the day off on Monday after his weekend call. We spent some nice time together including a couple hour walk on our place that was so incredibly awesome.. ( completely different from the one I described on the radio show) He also does small things like he came home at 7 on Wednesday night and my daughter was watching a movie in the other room( she had a virus) and the boys were at youth. He fixed his dinner and asked if I wanted to watch an episode of Band of Brothers. I did so we went in there and he went to sit in his chair but then stopped and came over and sat next to me. After he ate I rubbed his feet and then he rubbed my back without my asking.

I wrote him a happy letter this week telling him how much I appreciate what he is doing and how I just can't keep myself from smiling when I think about him..

So... what's the problem.. I am still worried about him. His headaches are still bad. ( stress) He is just stressed and it is job related.. I still wonder if some kind of counseling would help him... But i don't know that I could get him to go or even what kind of counselor it would be: job counselor, personal counselor??? We were discussing the prevalence of drug use among physicians. another doctor has taken a leave of absence probably for the same reason. It is more common than you probably think as the job is just so stressful.

I've told him over and over that I would be happy if he quit and became a forest ranger. ( His second choice of career.) Or we left now to become medical missionaries ( ok..we can't because of middle son but in 2years we can. My daughter would love to come with us! ) I'll do whatever. We have been frugal and lived on a small portion of his salary and saved or given away the rest of it. We can do whatever we want.... We don't have to wait 7 1/2 more years...

I'm just unsure of what to do. This is the next subject that I need to have an honest talk with him about. He cannot keep on the way that he feels. He just can't. But I don't know that I can MAKE him do anything. But I can tell him honestly how worried I am about him...

BTW we have come to a mutual decision about this summer: NO GARDEN. HOORAY!!! He's got some other projects: painting the fence, clearing fallen trees, etc that he is going to do instead which is fine. We can still have fun and I won't be spending 3 or 4 hours every day in the summer, harvesting and canning or freezing or shelling or whatever. I do love eating our vegetables right now ( In January). We've had green beans, squash and corn from our garden this week. But I will not miss the work!!!

So if you have any suggestions, then let me know. We live in a rural area and I don't have a clue how to find a good counselor. I've read the article but the only ones I see in our phone book are either attached to a church or are attached to medicaid ( parenting classes, anger management, etc.)

So for now I pray and just support him as best I can with lots of head rubs. We have gotten lots of UA time this week. We are going out to lunch today and then to an rv show. Boys are gone all weekend for a youth disciple event. So he'll get some father/daughter time as well. She was so cute yesterday. She wrote I love you daddy on little pieces of paper and left them all over the house: on his desk, on our bed, etc. A few months ago, that would have made me feel jealous.. Not anymore. It is just sweet.

Hi Tired Wife,
I scanned thru your thread and can appreciate the stress and anxieties that go with the lifestyle. I have been married ----as of tomorrow--- 33 years to busy solo practice surgeon, but in a urban setting. I also am the practice admin and manage the property the office is located. About 9 years ago I had a rare inner ear condition that could only be cured by surgery. This meant a craniotomy. But unfortunately this procedure lead to complications that lead to 3 more craniotomies w/in 7 months. Nightmare.

All these happenings did not help our relationship. I'd been the giver and had been taking care of our relationship. Although my husband coped in a compartmentalized way and helped me on the surface, he was not meeting my emotional needs for support. It was devastating while I struggled and I did not have the capacity or skills to articulate how to help. I did not have MB.

My point is I understand the lifestyle, stressors, anxiety, chronic pain, juggling marriage and family and having balance. There is a wonderful program that began at Harvard Med School for stress and many many physicians gone thru this course. Jon Kabat-Zinn's Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction Programs noteworthy for helping to manage pain too. Google it.

Sounds like things are going well for you. BTW, I was recently struck by a term "cruelly gratuitous." I've decided this is what we are offering when we want to make sure others are happy but do not consider ourselves into the equation-- married or single.

Yes, this is why over the last month I have not been demanding but I have been standing up for what I need and praising him when I get it. This week it has been hard for me to not think what I used to: he is so stressed I just need to do things for him and I won't ask. Nope, I need it and that isn't bad. It is good for our marriage and him as well as he seems less stressed when we have more UA time. But I'm wondering if I need to draw some kind of line in the sand over this isssue.. He has been dealing with this for probably 8-10 years. He changed practices 6 years ago, which helped quite a bit but now he is back to the same level of stress. So he isn't sure that changing practices would help.

Again, it might sound weird but the mindfulness stress course is very beneficial for lots of doctors. Physician heal thyself. My husband can also seem 'perfect' on the outside as well. But being in the mode of doing more and more is like an addiction to it. It is a cultural norm that is supported in a number of ways. Its a black hole. I myself have been on the receiving end of what I am calling this form of gratuitous cruelty. ie going thru the motions. Your husband getting back to UA time w/you can be centering to overall health and wellbeing. More of a shift within then a change of facilities. Prudent.

Sigh... just wishing I had friends.. I wish I had a girlfriend that I could share with that would give me an honest perspective.... All my friends growing up and in college were male and I dropped all contact with them when I got married because it felt funny to have male friends... my best friend during that time(a guy) died 10 years ago. It was all about my husband when I got married and then my kids/husband.. I have been going through A Beautiful Wife bible study by myself.. You are supposed to go it with a group or at least a mentor. There are a couple of godly women that I respect, but my husband has either treated them, their husband or both!!!

I'm lonely today. I want a friend.. I want a friend that I can go to and say my husband has been struggling for so long, what should I do...where can I go? I tried to go to our interim pastor this summer and he is useless.. ( oh, yes my wife and children used to get so mad that I was so tired and wouldnt do what they wanted to do but would go out and help anyone who called.. ?????? To him, 15 hours was unreasonable...)

I guess I will share this with hubby today, but I'm not sure what good it does other than to depress him further OR for him to cover it up and try to make me feel good ( which is what I suspect he has been doing..)

According to MB is your husband really supposed to be your only friend? And if so what do you do when the problem is with him?? I've already suggested stuff over and over and over... I feel like a broken record. He knows I'm concerned, but he seems stuck......

And I'll be honest, another reason I'm feeling blue today is because I am probably about to start. I don't know that for sure since I am so incredibly irregular now... But it feels that way..... UGG

No marriage problems.. We had some great UA time this weekend and last week.. 17 hours or so. He sent me a sweet text to ask me how I was doing...

I know how you feel TW. I have shared MB with two friends. One embraced yet, another poo-pooed it.

Staying home, raising kids of any age, can be isolating. Finding friends you can really trust is difficult. I found some of my most trusted friends, within the homeschooling community. Not church.

If the mods will allow it, we can exchange emails. The forums aren't blogs. But, sometimes we need to talk to a fellow MB follower.

Blow off lessons tomorrow. Sit in the sunshine, talk to your kids. Laugh. And talk to your husband. His shoulders are bigger than your's. Trust him. Tell him you're lonely, but you don't expect him to fix it; just listen.

TW,
I understand your situation regarding fostering friendships with the doctor/patient dynamic involved. We are forced to compartmentalize to maintain confidences and its impossible to let your own hair down with anyone besides hubby. I'm very isolated too. This lifestyle has taken its tole and I have become less involved in our community since our kids have grown. Since we began MB and it took so much time to get my husband on board--- the girlfriendships I'd fostered have dissipated. I feel bad about that. And the ones I did confided in were not particularily supportive of MB program. I saw a therapist for a while but like so many here talk about was also not supportive of the program and recommended marriage counseling. I've not discussed our struggles with my family of origin either who are 600 miles away. Actually I tried talking with two of my four siblings and they were not helpful. One of the other siblings I did not talk to because his wife was undergoing cancer tx. And the other sibling was doing a bad job of managing her own alcoholism. My parents are of advanced age and overwhelmed with their own stuff. Its a lonely space sometimes.

Have you considered a hobby interest or something like a book club with women? Or a yoga class? Maybe a group outside of your other circles? Just a thought. I appreciate you are located in a rural environment and its got to be a challenge too. Sorry to ramble. Just reaching out. It almost sounds like you are a bit too much in your own head to see clearly through to the other side.

Doesn't really apply here. My oldest two just left for their dual credit classes at community college ( Spanish IV for both, 2nd semester freshman English for oldest and College Algebra for middle.) I'm about to take youngest to her violin lesson an hour away.. Plus, no sunshine but 80 percent chance of thunderstorms.

But I do feel better. I started as I suspected, so part of the emotional upheaval was hormones.

I've started an online college Spanish class that is quite difficult but sort of fun as well. My 45yo brain isn't used to working quite that hard. My boys are getting a kick out of being the tutor for me. I had them proofread my first assignment which was a 7 sentence introduction and asked for help with my pronounciation... This first semester class says that it will take 6 hours a week. HA!!!! I'm spending an hour in the morning and an hour in the afternoon watching the videos and doing the assignments as well as more time in a workbook I got for the boys that they never used but I am finding VERY helpful. So at least 2 1/2 hours every day. And I'm still behind and a little lost.... ( A lot of this is immersion, though, so I don't think I'm supposed to understand everything.) My consolation is that even if I fail the class, I will know a lot more Spanish for our mission trip this spring.....

I had friend who wanted to learn Spanish. She started worshipping at the Spanish service at her church. She said it provided the immersion she needed.