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I read your post making moral equivalence arguments and I can't imagine your mother's pain in reading that. Do you have any idea how painful that would be for her to read? Not to mention impossible to defend. What a betrayal!

You DO condone his behavior when you make such arguments.

I don't want you to do anything except think through what you are saying. I UNDERSTAND you are a victim too, really I do. I understand you are frustrated with your mother and want to see her in a better place. We do too!

But you don't mitigate your victimhood or your mothers by making unworkable moral equivalence arguments. That makes the problem worse.

And of course it your choice to be friends with your father. No one has disputed that. My point is that most children don't want to have a relationship with the adulterer. That is not a bad thing, but a good thing. My life was much better once I cut my corrupt father out of my life. I clung out of a sense of misplaced guilt for years. He made me sick inside as a human being and I felt peace once I just admitted the truth to myself and cut him out. No big drama, just a backing off.

I honestly don't blame you for not saying anything to your mother when he got married. I understand and agree with your reasons for doing it. You were placed in an impossible situation.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Me having a relationship with him is not saying "I don't believe you" or support you. I guess the major hurt and disapointment with him has honestly tapered off since so much time has passed. That doesn't mean it still doesn't exist.

I want the same for my mother. I want the drama to taper off. I want to be able to not worry about her accidently finding out something about him or catching her off guard by mentioning his name. She may love him forever, but release us us from the drama too. It is just exhausting. We all feel trapped and consumed by it.


I believe and understand her hurt. I do! How can Mula heal from this? How? I just don't know.


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Have you ever considered the possibility that maybe your mother will never "heal" in the way you want her to? Is it possible that the hurt was so bad that, even when she heals, in her own way and time, that possibly a huge scar will remain? Would you be angry with a burn victim if their face never looked the same? You do not have the right to tell her what or how to be. You can gently and kindly encourage her by living the life in front of you now, and asking her to be included, but that's about all you've got.

On another note, I had to distance myself from my father after a family issue on which he decided to take the side of the perpetrator of sexual abuse. He didn't do the act himself, but he didn't stand up against it and tried to "decriminalize"
It. I couldn't, in good conscience, continue to be around him thereby giving him the impression that this stance was acceptable. I suppose it shouldn't surprise me though, since he was a wayward early in my parents' marriage, and that, along with his uncontrolled anger led to their divorce. Do you see how character DOES matter?

Though I tend to be a person who feels guilty too easily, and I sometimes feel that way about keeping my distance from him, I see that my life is so much healthier this way. It is a healthy boundary for ME not to expose myself to the wayward mentality. And it's healthier for my children as well. They may be losing a supposed relationship with a grandfather, but that is because of HIS choices. They don't need that kind of influence in their lives.

Last edited by Wonderingif; 05/01/12 11:51 PM.
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There is no easy fix to this situation but I'm curious what your feelings are about the financial ties your father has with your mom. If he refuses to cut those ties with her, he is still holding her hostage in a way...and it is cruel...and it keeps the drama going for Mulan. Have you ever asked your father to do right by your mom and cut those ties? If so, what is his response?


BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011




Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.

We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
--------Eleanor Roosevelt
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[[[mulan]]]]
I don't stop here too often and I am sorry to see these posts.

It reinforces how adultery destroys...it destroys the loving spouse, the children, the family and the moral fiber of life.

cynda, you are crying out for both your mother and father and have lost both because of this adultery.

My heart breaks for this family.

Mulan with this new shock it has made you relive your pain. Breathe and pray. One step at a time...but take those steps.

Cynda you lost both parents. Even though you have a relationship with your father it is a poor substitute for your Dad. Your Mom is a casualty of his adultery.

Mulan, everyone here has experienced this pain and shock. What you have to remember is that you deserve happiness. Stop punishing yourself for his sins. I understand your love for a man that is not there. This should not stop you from being a loving grandmother and more.

Stop giving him your power. Stop giving the OW your pain. I understand when you said the OW stole your life. My XH affairaged with the OW also.

The OW wanted everything that I had. She wanted the manager (he was demoted), she wanted the family man (he estranged himself from his daughters), she wanted his money (he is bankrupt), she wanted the man with good ethics (the day the A started he stopped being that). Everything she wanted she got none of those things.

Don't envy her. she has NOTHING.

I never thought I would be happy again, I never thought I would go forward but I do every day. There are some days (and I still work with both her and him) that I have my moments but they have no power. I still love my old H but know as long as he is with OW he will be the selfish wayward.

I don't date but I have good friends, a good church, and creating a good life. Love when you ready not when you are lonely. I may never get there and that is fine too.

Yes it is shocking, so hurtful, so full of pain. You don't want to be stuck in that hell. No one deserves to be.

This is the time now for your personal growth. It is time for you to let this go. Turn it over to God truly.

Blessing to your you and your family.


Me 55, XWH 53, M 22 years
D17, D30
alien replaces my husband "I'm not happy" -7/08
Discover OW-8/08 (his direct report and I work there also)
H moves out 10/1/08, confront Ow 10/28/08
Plan B 1/09
D final 12/09

Quote: "First thing you do is pray; when there is nothing else to do, continue to pray."
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Your mother had her heart ripped out. Stomped on. You are just fine with the person who did it.

Mulan, we are here for you.

If you need someone to talk to, we will listen.


One year becomes two, two years becomes five, five becomes ten and before you know it, you've wasted your whole life on a problem you can't solve. That's one way to spend your life. -rwinger

I will not spend my life this way.
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When I first found out many things had to be re-evaluated.

The image of Miss Haversham in Great Expectations kept returning to me .She had been betrayed on her wedding day and from that moment never left the house and never took off her wedding dress.

As a metaphor for PTSD she strikes a frightening image of what is happening inside the brain but using her as a benchmark I can see that just about every one here has gone well beyond that stage.

It must have been ten times as bad in those days she had no-one to talk to about her problems and I am sure we all agree that this forum has been a huge help 24/7.

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Yes Cyndi is a victim and actually, she is in more pain than Mulan.

Mulan is doing the work of grieving, productive work. She got no say in receiving the mess, but she is busy clearing it up. So what if she has been in the anger stage a long time? It takes as long as it takes. People also keep giving her reasons to be angry! She is being honest and dealing with her feelings.

Cyndi is choosing denial. Shove the pain down deep and cover it with fake smiles, tolerance of adulterers and fake relationships.

I don't say these things to accuse Cyndi - simply to warn her that her tactics, while entirely her decision, will carry their own consequences.

I understand she's looking for an easy solution to all this. A magic pill, a re-set button. Get mum an internet date or into a counsellors office and maybe it will be as though the betrayal never happened.

Treat dad like a good man and maybe she can fake it long enough to believe that he is one.

There isn't any magic pill that will work for Mulan, aside from time and support from loved ones. There isn't any magic pill, certainly not denial, for Cyndi either. She's still in pain under all this and there's no point pretending she isnt.

Its also worse than useless to encourage Mulan to join in her in faking it to make it.

Mulan's wounds are practically visible to her. She isn't dishonest enough to pretend they are not. Her honesty is naturally repelled at the idea of such a thing and understands it will simply impede her grieving. It will simply be a stage of stopping the work, pretending the work of grieving is not needed.

To get through grieving, you have to grieve. Stop telling her to stop grieving and start acknowledging your own grief.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted by cyndyk
I believe and understand her hurt. I do! How can Mula heal from this? How? I just don't know.


Cyndy it will take a long long time!

You must not be so impatient.

I understand you are exhausted but healing together need not be an exhausting task.

It could be the greatest thing ever.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted by Wonderingif
Have you ever considered the possibility that maybe your mother will never "heal" in the way you want her to? Is it possible that the hurt was so bad that, even when she heals, in her own way and time, that possibly a huge scar will remain?


I couldn't agree more with this. I will get divorced, I will make a happy life, I will probably get remarried..but I will never be the same.

I wouldn't erase the pain of betrayal for anything. Its made me a better person.

I will always watch people a little more closely now. Less trustingly. I will always feel more gratitude for loving actions as opposed to loving words these days. I will always wince at things which remind me of my scar.

But I wouldn't rid myself of my scar. Its part of me and my history now.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted by cyndyk
I want to be able to not worry about her accidently finding out something about him or catching her off guard by mentioning his name.


Not possible. Mentioning the name of an abuser to his victim will always pierce that victim's scar.

You wish for the impossible.

It is not Mulans fault that scar is there.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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I have read this entire thread. And it's painful. I want to hug Mulan and her daughter- because they are both embroiled in a mess not of their own making. And that sucks.

But to Cyndy, I need to say this, in the wise words of the band The Fray- sometimes the hardest thing is the right thing to do.

Your father's choices are terrible. He has hurt you with his decisions. He has made you an accomplice in injuring Mulan further- by appealing to the little girl in you that wants two parents.

It hurts when you realize that we cannot always have that. And that no amount of being nice to a person who has made terrible choices ( not mistakes. Choices. A mistake is locking your keys in the car. Serial adultery? Choice.) will fix that.

It isn't moral to be neutral. You have to stand up for what is right and good and honest. That's morality. What you described is relativism. That's not an admirable position.

I wish you peace and luck.


Thanks for all the support along the way.
I wish you all well. I'm outta here.
Peace.
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Originally Posted by cyndyk
Do any of you people have children? You are placing all of the lies and blame on US. We were stuck between a rock and hard place. Are you guys serious?

I have six children, and I have been in exactly the same situation you were in.

I haven't read all of the posts here, and I don't know what I do or don't agree with. I'm digging through now to see if you saw or responded to my post yesterday.

I've learned a couple of things on Marriage Builders.

One thing I've learned is that abuse does not justify more abuse. One person might take an abusive action such as anger or having an affair. It is natural for the other person to want to respond in kind. It is natural, but it is not good for either person in the relationship, and it is counterproductive: it makes everything worse. This goes for all relationships, not just marriages.

Another thing I've learned is that angry outbursts are always wrong. There is always an alternative way to respond. The angry outburst always makes it harder for the angry person to get what they were looking for, too.

Another thing I've learned is that angry outbursts are an extremely common response to the betrayal of an affair. As others are saying, the feeling of anger seems to be a natural stage to grief.

Of course, if one person is angry at us, we choose how we are going to respond to that.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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You say you regret attending the wedding; that it was a painful experience.

Please stop condoning that event then by your implicit endorsement by being around OW. You can be with your father all you like, so long as you don't condone his continuing evil choices to hurt your mother. And believe me - having her son as a best man to his affairage was INTENDED to hurt your mother. To the core. He hates that she stood up to him.

Are you afraid to stand up to him and take a stand against his choices?

Are you afraid to lose his love? However he chooses to buy it/show it?


Cafe Plan B link http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2182650&page=1

The ? that made recovery possible: "Which lovebuster do I do the most that hurts the worst"?

The statement that signaled my personal recovery and the turning point in our marriage recovery: "I don't need to be married that badly!"

If you're interested in saving your relationship, you'll work on it when it's convenient. If you're committed, you'll accept no excuses.
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Hugs to you too Cindy, I've been where you are and I too suffered the consequences. It is not till I made it right that my life went better.

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I just wanted to say that I've certainly said everything that I want to say. And that I'm done posting in here. I honestly don't believe it is healthy at all for me to get into this exchange with all of you.

I have faults and I have not handled myself perfectly at all. I fully recognize that. But I don't deserve the name-calling that has been said here. I find it deranged and disgusting. I really disagree with everything said here. There are certain things that I really cannot comment on publically (re: finances, etc) because that is between me and my mother.

The only thing I do agree with is that I understand that my mom was really devastated about finding out about the wedding. Esp in the way she did. It was awful for her and I really do understand that. The whole sitaution sucks, frankly.

Bottom line: I want her to be mentally healthy and free from this. I want her to be ok with herself and embrace her family -- my brother, myself and two granddaughters are a family, whether she thinks we are or not. That is all I want.

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Mulan and Cyndy,

I am so sorry for the devestation that has occurred in both your lives.

Hugs and prayers for both of you.

AM


BW - 70
WH - 65
M - 35 years
D-day - 17 Apr 08
H broke contact 11/1/09
Back in love after the worst thing that every happened to us.
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She thinks you are not a family, because you aren't acting as one.

Disagree with us everyday, for the rest of your life- but that's the truth. And that's why you are depressed and anxious. You have a bullet wound and you are worried about a hangnail instead.

I hope you can take a step back- and think- without anger or prejudice about what we are saying to you. It is all being said to help you, not to wound you further. Your anger is misplaced. and that's why you have no peace.


Thanks for all the support along the way.
I wish you all well. I'm outta here.
Peace.
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Originally Posted by cyndyk
I don't deserve the name-calling that has been said here.

I agree. I was dismayed to see it.

Quote
There are certain things that I really cannot comment on publically (re: finances, etc) because that is between me and my mother.

Since I was the one who brought up finances...I was not expecting you to disclosure personal financial details. If you are no longer going to post, I just want to say that this is just one area where exWH can do right by your mother. If he REFUSES to be a decent person TODAY and make things right for her, I wonder how you (and your brother) have a relationship with a man who STILL continues to injure your mother. That would be hard to reconcile for most people. The financial aspect was merely an example of the bigger picture and one reason your mother remains stuck and feels an ongoing betrayal.

Quote
Bottom line: I want her to be mentally healthy and free from this. I want her to be ok with herself and embrace her family -- my brother, myself and two granddaughters are a family, whether she thinks we are or not. That is all I want.

I want those things for Mulan too...I think we all do. It is easier said then done. She will have to make choices and much of her own healing falls solely on her and unfortunately time. I hope you really take a hard look at exWH...the man he is TODAY and take to heart why Mulan continues to feel betrayed. You may never have walked in your mother's shoes as a betrayed wife but betrayal on any level cuts deep...especially when it's family.

I sincerely hope you all heal and are able to rebuild. Prayers and hugs to you Cyndy.


BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011




Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.

We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
--------Eleanor Roosevelt
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****EDIT****

She's trying to rebuild HER family, which includes her brother, mother and kids. Maybe she went to the wedding in part to support her brother who lived through years of hell while Mulan and WH were floundering with adultery and the results of it? She regrets it. It was years ago.

Give the lady a break. She didn't lie to her mother. Mulan didn't want to know.

I for one would be pretty devastated if my mother couldn't see that the family she worked so hard to build was STILL HERE. Changed but still here.

******EDIT*****

Plan B is about self care and creating a life on your own...a fulfilling life. Mulan has so much going for her. How much time will be spent lamenting before just moving into a new future?

Clean up those financial ties, Mulan. Sell the house if you need to. Don't waste anymore time. He is gone.

I know many will be offended by this post because I'm a FWW but really? Are angry outbursts acceptable HERE?

My prayers are with both Mulan and Cyndy.

Last edited by JustUss; 05/02/12 12:25 PM. Reason: tos Complaints go to the mods--NOT on the forum!
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