ote:
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Unlike you, though, I am not angry at OW, because I don't feel that she betrayed me.


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I don't really know my FWH's OW either--not personally. I know who she is because I had seen her before, but we have never spoken.

But I do feel like she betrayed me--and mothers everywhere! Is that wierd?

Maybe it's because she KNEW that I had just had a baby when she started chasing after my H--sending him lewd text messages, etc. She is a mother, too (two young children ages 7 and 4) and had to know that my H's EN's were on the back burner--as were my own needs for that matter--while I dealt with the constant needs of a brand new baby. For her to try and take my H away from his two little children--and abandon her own kids in the process--sigh. I do feel anger for her, and for all women like her.

At some point, I know that I will need to forgive her, too. Hate is a heavy load to carry around, and I don't want to be the kind of person who becomes consummed with bitterness and anger. But I just can't seem to let go of this yet.

Be strong, and good luck. I always enjoy your posts--and your wisdom.

-CSJ.


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Hi CSJ,

Good to hear from you again...I understand what you mean about OW betraying you and mothers everywhere, espec. if she has 2 young children herself...I see that your H's PA lasted almost a year. ..My H's was about 9 mos...I am having a really hard time dealing with it lately....I was much better at the beginning of this month when the other posts were written. Now, the whole part about how it lasted so long is really bothering me more than it did earlier.

My OW was 25, single, although she had a 2yr old son out of wedlock that she was not raising due to her emotional instability...Nice gal, huh? Can't even raise her own kid, so she didn't want to raise mine...my H would show pics of his kids around work and she refused to look at them, saying she would never meet them. She was an escape from reality and the mess of kids and running a house, everything that having a home and family is.

Well, I have to go now because I'm at work. I am glad that I have helped somewhat...I will be back in the morning if you reply...The issue for me now is, he says it didn't mean anything, it was just sex, but to me, it meant alot. he chose her over me for 9 mos...what does that say about me and his love/commitment for me? How do you feel about this re: your H's PA? Any ideas on how to cope? If you're struggling with this too, I'd appreciate hearing that too so I know it's not just me...Alot of posters are dealing with ONS or just a few SF encounters, which is a bit different from mine.

HAve a good night. Thanks for the pep talk, I needed it today!

--------------------
BW (Me) 38
FWH (40)
Married 14 yrs
DS 4/2000
DD 12/2002
DD 8/2005
PA 1/05 - 9/12/05
D-Day 10/13/05
Status: Trying to rebuild

[quote The issue for me now is, he says it didn't mean anything, it was just sex, but to me, it meant alot. he chose her over me for 9 mos...what does that say about me and his love/commitment for me? How do you feel about this re: your H's PA? Any ideas on how to cope? If you're struggling with this too, I'd appreciate hearing that too so I know it's not just me[/quote]

DEFINATELY not just you. I too struggle with this--daily. A year is a long time to betray everyone around you--and so is 9 months. Way too long.

On DDay, and the days that followed, the information just keep coming in. And with every new piece, I felt more and more like I was in the twilight zone. I kept telling myself "This is not the man I married--who is this person?????" It is as if he had been abducted by aliens--like so many people say in their posts here.

And ultimately, I guess this "alien" metaphor somewhat helps me to cope with what happened. Nothing about that year was consistent with my H. I still don't really comprehend how the good man that my H is could have EVER allowed that selfish monster to take over. But I just keep telling myself that it wasn't really him.

But I can see, in looking back on things, that my H was in there somewhere. He was so withdrawn and depressed that whole year--I was worried sick about him and trying like mad to figure out what was wrong. The idea that it was an A was the farthest thing from my mind. But I can see now that he hated himself and what he was doing. At least he still had a conscience and the presence of mind to feel guilty.

Why he would put himself through something that obviously brought him no happiness is a mystery to me. I read somewhere on this site that an average A lasts 2 years. Have you read that? So I guess maybe it's par for the course for the WS to become somewhat caught up in the whole thing, despite the fact that it defies common sense. Comparable to any other addiction, I suppose.

I have also wondered if maybe the WS feels a little trapped, like they are not quite sure how to extricate themselves from the situation. I think my FWH fell into this trap, also. But I am hesitant to question him too much about that. He hates to talk about it--hates to think about it. I think, in his mind, he would like to simply close to door on the whole ugly thing and walk away--pretending it never happened.

If only I could do that. Every day has its own struggles. AT least I have work, which helps me to escape from it a bit. Speaking of, I better get back to it.

Thanks for commiserating with me a bit.

God Bless,
CSJ

Hey CSJ,

Thanks for the reply...what you said about your H being abducted by aliens sound similar to me...someone once wrote in a post that she felt like she didn't have an H during his A. That is also how I feel..He was very depressed, irritable, etc, all because of his extreme guilt and shame over what he was doing. He was also withdrawn from me and spent most of his time away from home. I think he also felt trapped in something he was unable to get out of. I have read here that the WS changes in order to justify the actions to make themselves feel less guilty, they compartamentalize their lives...Like, my wife is mad at me so I'm going to see OW...He thought that because I didn't know, it wouldn't hurt me...I was never going to find out (because he could trust OW not to tell me...right, until she started threatening to tellme..then he couldn't leave her), he never was leaving his family or me so there was no threat to our M, it was just sex.

He says that at first it was new and exciting but then he was just so wracked with guilt and afraid that I would found out, that he became more and more depressed and would have panic attacks...

He would like to close the door also...of course, who wouldn't? I would love to but think of it every day...

I have to get to work now too. Just wanted to check back with you.

Hope you are having a good day!

They really all do read a script, don't they?

My FWH was so withdrawn the whole year that the A was going on--at one point I realized that I was basically a single mom. He was gone much of the time--to the "gym" (which was either a genuine visit to the treadmill, or a romp in the back of her Jeep) or hanging out with his guy pals. Another escape from reality, I suppose.

When he was home, he would warm up the plate of dinner I had made for him and slink upstairs, where he would hide out for the evening. I would try to go talk to him, and I would get monotone responses. I would try to do things for him: "Dinner's your choice tonight--anything you want." "Nothing."
"Hey, do you want to take a weekend trip to X? You've always wanted to go there?"
"No"

I was beside myself, wondering what was wrong. And then to find out that, not only was he cheating on me, but that every gesture I made to try and show him I loved him with thrown back in my face with such . . . indifference. That almost bothers me more than the sex.

And to top it off, for the first 18 mo of our youngest daughter's life, her Dad virtually ignored her. (Not just her, me and our oldest daughter too.) I have only a handfull of photos of him holding the baby--interacting with her. It breaks my heart. At least she doesn't know. God willing, she will never know how her father treated her. Does that part bother you, too? I see your daughters are about the same age as mine--bless their little hearts.

But there is Karma. My yougest DD just got over a case of pink eye (ewwwwwwh) and guess who came down with it? My FWH! I have done my job in nursing him back to health, but inside I am sorry to report that I laughed a bit. Serves him right.

It is going to take a long time for the hurt to go away for me--just when I think I am on an up-swing, something sets me off and I am crying again. But I know FWH suffers, too. Guilt is a heavy load to carry, too. And I would rather be in my shoes than his. I would hate to look at my spouse every day and know that I had caused that person so much anguish. That is his burden every day--and your FWH's burden too.

Good to chat--back to work. Take care of you!

-CSJ

C,

I used to say to him that I felt like I didn't even have a husband, that he had a secret life that I didn't know anything about. He worked weekend graveshift hours so was never able to do stuff as a family then, but on his days off during the week, he would "go to the gym" (can't tell you how many times I heard that lie and even encouraged him to go so he would feel better about himself!)...

Yes, it bothers me about his not being there for the kids, especially the baby. I was pregnant the whole time of his A, had just found out right before his A started. Had to drag him to prenatal appts, even the one for the Ultrasound to find out the baby's sex...I think he came to 2 or 3 appts. the previous pregnancy, he went to most of them. did not help me out one bit, no foot rubs, nothing...he did bring me to the hospital in the middle of the night but told me I was being dramatic because I waited too long (I woke him up at 2:30 am and left for the hospital at 3, arrived at hosp at 3:30 and delivered her at 4:03...It happened very fast and I had no pain meds at all (My previous 2 were induced, and when I called the Midwife at 12 am, she told me to go to sleep!)

Anyway, I find out after DDay that H called OW after the baby was born to tell her the news...she screamed at him. I asked why he called her and he says he wanted to tell everyuone because he was so happy and he knew she would be up (she was at work)...It makes me so f-ing angry to think about it...HIs lack of support and concern for me and the baby...He did take 2 wks off to help after baby was born, but then the A started up right where it left off although he says he was trying to end it for months before, but just kept getting sucked in. And of course, I couldn't have sf for 6 wks after, so there is that excuse, you know?

yes, guilt is terrible...i know he carries it in his heart. he has told me he regrets being such a jerk during the pregnancy and that he knows the baby would have weighed more if he had been cooking for me and taking care of me. He would even like to have another but I dont think I could go through another pregnancy. I told him that in the ER< that I couldn't do it again. Now it's not just a physical reason why...

You take care of you too. I have to go back to work now too. Will check in tomorrow. Have a good night.

I encouraged my FWH, too! It makes me feel like such a fool now, that I gave him my blessing. He said his gym visits were his "stress relief" and so I thought I should be supportive. Stress relief, my a$$.



My FWH also said he felt trapped. The night he finally confessed the whole ugly thing he told me that, when he finally got the guts to end it, OW threatened him and said, "you ruined my life so now I'm going to ruin yours." Can you imagine? Like now SHE'S the victim. Nice. And she did follow up on that threat, or tried to anyway. She got messages to me a few times by having her friends call me to tell me that the A was still going on--my H was still calling her, etc. "She just wants you to know because she's lost everything." She's a real piece of work. But what's almost worse is that, when I was telling my FWH about these lovely messages, he refuses to believe it really was her. He broke NC to call her and tell her to stop contacting me, and she told him this song-and-dance that she had nothing to do with it. Now FWH thinks her friends contacted me all on their own. Why would he defend her like that, I mean SERIOUSLY!



And that, all by itself, still makes me so angry. I shouted at my H, during one of my few vents at him after DDay, "I JUST HAD A BABY--WHY COULDN'T YOU WAIT???" And he never did answer that question. Not that I really expected him to. But why is it that babies seem to bring this ugliness out of men? I mean, we are not the only ones on this forum by any means who had to deal with an A in the midst of a new baby. Why can't they put their EN on the back burner for just a few months? Why can't they look at that beautiful, innocent new life and understand that this little soul's PHSYICAL needs outweigh his--any everyone's--EMOTIONAL needs--for just a little bit.



This adds to my heartache, too. I had always felt like we would have 3 kids--and a big part of me would love one more. But I am too afraid to go there again.

Well, back to work again. Have a good night--my thoughts are with you and your family.

-C

Good morning CSJ,

I agree with everything you wrote...the WS all seem to sound the same after you read here a while...No, we are not the only ones whose H's had As when wives are pregnant. Im thankful that he didn't leave like some here have done. I also think that I was not meant to find out before baby was born b/c I truly don't know if I would have been able to handle it...Yeah, stress relief at the gym--I was supportive also... About a month ago he told me that he was looking into joining another gym, and I just looked at him...He said, no really I need to get into shape...I told him that if he had gone to the gym all the times he said he was , he would be in great shape now. He just looked at me..nothing he could say.

I'm also angry about the SF after baby was born. Like I said before, he took 2 wks off but then went back to work and to her...The night I had my postpartum appt we had SF. It was quick because we didn't have much time, but good. I thought we were moving in the right direction there...come to find out he did her the next night, and the next and the next (and then the last was on his last day with her)...She also made trouble with him at work and told him 'you F-ed me, now I'm going to F-you"...

Anyway, I am trying to focus on what he is doing NOW so that I can move on. It's tough to do as you know. I keep thinking back to the things I can remember about last year and if I dwell on it, I just sink further.

Hope you are having a good day and weekend.

Oh, I wanted to comment again on the pregnancy...If I were you, I wouldn't give up on having another baby, if you really wanted to have three. You are young enough to wait for a full recovery before talking about it...I found this last pregnancy to be tougher due to my age, as well as everything else...that is part of the reason it was harder. MY H has asked me just a month ago about having another baby and I said I didn't know. He always wanted 4. He said what would you do if you got pregnant now, and I said I don't know, I guess I would have the baby and deal with it...I think I would if that was the case. He said, if it's for us, it will be...maybe in a couple years.

He still wants another one. I would have to see alot of changes in order to consider it. See, I was happy with 2, and he convinced me that he would help more, change his hrs, etc if we had a third. Instead he had an A. He is very thankful for the baby and so am I, don't get me wrong...she is truly a gift from God...I wouldn't have gotten through this without her and the other kids. But I think that I would have been more in tune to what was going on if I wasn't pregnant, and my H took advantage of the situation and my vulnerability. I hope that makes sense.

It does--I think that's part of why I didn't see things developing like I wish I had. My last baby was SOOO high-maintainance at the first--I hardly slept. And then at 8 weeks I went back to work and had so much on my plate. I admit that I was distracted, and I think that is probably part of the justification my FWH used for his A--that I was too wrapped up with the kids. I understand the complaint, but there is a DIFFERENCE between ignoring my H all the time, and ignoring him when you are up nursing a baby every 2 hours for months . . . . I just don't understand why he couldn't have appriciated that the situation was temporary, or at least TALKED to me about it . . .

But I'm grateful for progress. I at least can say that I am glad I am here, working on my marriage. And just a few months ago all I wanted was a divorce. I am grateful the my FWH did come to his senses, and that he is putting forth genuine effort.

He does drag his feet on some things--mostly when I try to implement a new idea. He doesn't want to schedule 15 hours a week together--he doesn't want to try new activities--he doesn't want to give up guy nights (one or two a week), that kind of thing. He says our marriage was great before--his A was just a stupid mistake that will never happen again, and that we can just do what we were doing before.

Obviously this is not acceptable to me. I agree that much of what we did before was good. But his A still happened. So part of healing our marriage is going to have to mean changing it. But I think he struggles with that because he equates the amount of work required with the amount of pain he caused. And I know it hurts him to face that. I try not to show it too much. We haven't even spoken of the A in quite some time. Just focusing on keeping our spirits up and being good to eachother. FWH planned a trip for this Spring to Santa Fe. I've never been there, so that will be fun. Or else I'll decide that a week alone with him drives me absolutely crazy! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Anyway--good to chat. Have a great day and a great weekend. My best to you and your family.

-C.

CSJ,

"But I think he struggles with that because he equates the amount of work required with the amount of pain he caused. And I know it hurts him to face that. I try not to show it too much."

This is My H too... we have gotten off track in our recovery plan because he hates to talk about it, and I sometimes don't bring it up because I don't want to ruin a good night, you know. I think he's afraid if we start talking about our M, I will get all emotional (I've done that many times) but we have talked about it with out me LBing so I am getting better in this regard. I am working on trying to make him feel safe talking to me about the A.

My H said at the beginning that he would do the 15 hrs a week but that is really really tough w/ little kids...by the time they go to bed, we are both exhausted, part of the problem...not enough private time together...

I'm glad that you and your H are doing well.. OUr M was not great before, but the big thing was that we lost each other. we were living separate lives and not connecting at all. Now we are doing better and communicating. The SF is better. He says he is sorry that he was so stupid. He is glad that it happened, he says, because now we have the chance to make our M better....I have seen alot of changes in both of us, enough to give me some hope, but some days are tougher than others, as you know.

My H also HATES scheduling SF, time together, etc. He thinks that is so un-sexy...but at least then you get some, you know? The way we were, he didn't get it enough and that was part of the draw to OW because she was young and single with no kids to distract them...

I went back to work at 6 wks and I know what you mean..You have so much stress on your plate and trying to be everything to everybody...I don't think Hs have an idea of how hard that is... Why they don't talk to us is another mystery that I will never understand....I also thought about divorce, and even threatened it a few times, but stopped doing that. We are both committed to our M so that is good. I just have to get over the fact that he chose someone else over me for that long of a time. He says he never stopped loving me and never was going to leave, but I can't imagine doing this to someone I loved...

I am glad to hear you are going away together - that is great. Wish we could do it. Our anniversary is coming up at the end of the month and I want to do something special.

Thanks for the chat. I'll be back on Monday (don't work the weekends). I'll look for you...Have a good weekend!
C

The 15 hours is really hard--not to mention when you add sickness to it! Everyone in the house has taken their turn to get sick since D-Day, and so it's been really exhausting. I would get the kids to bed between 8:00-8:30 and then turn around to see FWH getting into bed, too. Oh brother! I feel like I'm beating my head against a wall sometimes trying to re-connect with my H. It's so hard to find the time, even on a good day.

And I'm not sure how helpful it is at this point to talk about the A. It tears into what is still a very raw wound for me to discuss it with him--and I know he HATES it. I really had to drag some details out of him at first. You know, when you're in that obsessive stage where you want to ask all the detailed questions, and then once they answer them you wonder why you asked in the first place. So I haven't brought it up in a while. I guess I am hoping that, at some point, he will feel comfortable enough to bring it up to me. But I don't know if he will. So do I gain anything by bringing it up? I just don't know.



I keep telling myself that he DID choose me, and this should make me feel better. But somehow it ticks me off even more. I am his WIFE--the MOTHER of his CHILDREN. There should never have been a choice to make!!! Sometimes I feel like the OW and I were engaged in some teenage girl fight over who would "win his affection" and that makes me feel so pathetic.

But I am gradually working through this, I think. I spent the better part of Saturday making FWH his favorite cookies--they are soooo good but rather time consuming. The whole time I made them, I just kept smiling to myself. "I am a better cook than OW. She never made him these cookies. She never made him anything. She doesn't even know that they are his favorite. My H is sooooo lucky to have me."

I hope you do something wonderful for your anniversary, too. You deserve it! Make him treat you like a Queen!

It's good to visit! I'll check in again tomorrow, and have a great day.

CSJ

Hi there,

I didn't have time to check here yesterday. I know what you mean about not having time to connect with your H. I find it almost impossible. My H also was going to bed early last week, he was depressed and kind of sick too.

My H sometimes mentions the OW (talking about how crazy she was) and I try not to react or LB... What I have learned to do is to just listen and be calm so he feels safe when he does open up. I'm trying to build his trust that I won't react angrily...but I LBd last week and brought her up in an argument and he said later that he was like, where did that come from?

I think you do gain alot by bringing the A up, but it has to be done in a nonthreatening way. Schedule the time, with a time limit. No LBs or bringing up what is revealed to hold against him. Listen calmly and thank him for his honesty, even though it hurts. You want him to trust you (I know it sounds strange, but he is afraid you will be mad/upset). Some posters have suggested writing a list of questions and determining what you are trying to learn from the answer, what will it help you to do? And also you can give him a list ahead of time so he knows what to expect. I haven't done the list of qts.

I know that there shouldn't have been a choice of someone else over me, that is what gets me! I know what you mean about the teenage girl fight, and I feel like,I was in competition with her and DIDN'T EVEN KNOW IT!!! How could I compete w/ her when I didn't know I even had competition? He says there was no competition, she doesn't hold a candle to me...but I still get anxious over this.

I bet you deposited TONS of love units in H's love bank with those cookies. My H loves my cookies, baking, anything like that. I haven't done it in ages. not enough time anymore...when I do, he really appreciates it. He told me this weekend how much he appreciates me and that made me feel really good. The more he shows and tells me that he loves me, the more secure I feel. I feel really needy about that now.

Always good to catch up with you. I'll check back tomorrow (Thurs). Have a great night!!!!

What questions about the A have you asked that you felt were most helpful? I stopped asking about it a while ago--I just felt like I was spinning my wheels. He maintained that he had never brought her to our home--thank God. But I did drag out of him that they had gone to hotels a few times instead of just messing around in her Jeep. Then I started obsessing about which hotels they had visited. Why do I even care? I don't know.

The only other questions I kept pressing were the "whys." For example: "what emotional needs was she meeting for you?" "what were you unhappy with in our marriage?" And he never could answer these questions. He maintains that he was happy before the A, and he just don't know why he did it. I have run this around in my head so many times. Makes no sense. Ultimately, I think he can't point to one reason he did it because there isn't one specific reason it happened. Rather, I see it as a combination of things: reduced SF and attention after the birth of DD2, stress after buying new home, and disappointment after being passed up for promotion.

Maybe, now that he's had a break from the constant interrogation I gave him initially, I could bring some questions up again. I just don't know if I'm ready to hear the answers.

Interesting that your H said the "OW didn't hold a candle to you." This just fits the OW profile to a "T", doesn't it? There is seriously no competition between me and my H's OW. Not to sound vain or anything, but seriously, I cannot imagine what my FWH ever saw in her. (Except the eye-catching boob job I mentioned to you before.) Why risk everything for women like that? I don't get it.

Glad to chat! Enjoy your evening, and I'll check back tomorrow.

-C.

Hey C,

That is a good question, what questions did I find helpful? I will have to think about this and get back to you later today.

I don't know what the OW looks like, as I don't know her, and only go by what my H has said. He admits that I would be shocked by what she looks like. He tells me all the time how beautiful I am. About a month ago, he was telling me that I spend too much time thinking of OW and giving her too much power. He told me, I am thinking that she is so gorgeous and she really isn't. so I said, well all I know is that she is blonde and that she looks like Jodie Foster, so of course I imagine that she is beautiful (this is all he had told me at the time). So he says, she does not look like JF she just resembles her and she has strawberry blonde hair, more reddish, and then he describes her to me...I was surprised to hear that she isn't that attractive, because of course you want to think she must be, why else would he do this?? She has smaller boobs than me to top it all off...so physically I have it all over her and that makes me feel good, great in fact. The only thing is that I think her body is probably fantastic since she was only 26 and had only 1 kid a couple yrs earlier. Have I told you that she doesn't raise her 2 yr old son because she isn't responsible enough...

Anyway, I will think about the qts and reply later.

I wanted to know the "whys" also...I knew why he was unhappy. He answered the big why right away...he felt rejected by me because I was more involved w/ the kids than him, and felt like I wasn't attracted to him, reduced SF and affection, he was approaching 40 and wanted to see if he still had it, he was having a midlife crisis, stress and arguing at home, my pregnancy (I was not feeliing well for 2 mos and very moody, depressed), work stress and burnout (working graveshift hrs on the weekends and OT during the week, up to 60 hrs/ wk, etc. When I read SAA and HNHN, our scenario was there a lot about the child-focused marriage and the H and W losing each other. This is what we did. We lost touch w/ each other. He stopped being affectionate w/ me and I felt neglected and in turn rejected his advances because I was angry....Vicious cycle. She had been flirting with him (very raunchy flirting) for 6 mos, before he 'gave in" and went home w/ her when she asked him to again, because he and I had a huge huge fight. He stopped wanting to come home because he dreaded the fighting. When he would come home, I would be cold to him or busy and he would provoke an argument w/ me , turn around and leave to go see her...and blame me for the fighting. This was in the early mos of the A. As they began to fight, he says he would not go to her apt either because she would fight w/ him and say, you only come here when you have a fight w/ your wife...

One thing that also contributed to why it was so long, why it went on for months and months (another thing I won't understand) is that she focused completely on him. No kids living with her, an empty apartment. This was what I wanted to know--what was their relationship like? He says it was just sex and he cared about her because he felt sorry for her...I want to know (still do) what they did sexually (i imagine they did everything we have done and maybe more) and what else--watch tv? what did they talk about? What did he tell her about me? What did she do to get him back when he tried to break it off?

One question I haven't asked but it is a good one is, How did the OW make you feel about yourself? I think she made him feel like a Knight in Shining Armor. there are alot of old posts on this topic. The wife is strong and taking care of the kids and house, being independent and the H feels like he is not needed, so here's this OW that looks up to him, admires him, and he feels sorry for her so he feels needed and cared for...I thought I was being the good mother that he kept telling me that I was. Instead he thought I didn't need him...even though I was pregnant and needed him so badly, but I was too stubborn to give in.

Have you done the EN questionnaire? That is a good place to start w/ your H if you haven't done it yet. My H has been reluctant to do the MB stuff, but we need to get back into it. What we did with the EN Qt at his suggestion, was to rate your spouse as to how they meet ENs now, and how ENs were being met before the A started (Jan 05 in our situation). Have you read SAA and HNHN> These books helped me to understand how As happen.

I don't think that there is only ONE reason....rather like a series of things that happen and when they all come together, it is disaster. You do have to be ready to hear the answers though and be prepared that they will hurt. When we spent a couple hrs talking, I got alot out and it hurt. But I told him that the not knowiing and imagining the answers was worse than the truth. I told him I understood it was hard for him and for me but I felt better afterward.. I feel that the more I know, the less time I will spend obsessing over details, and then I really can move on. I don't want to keep throwing it in his face...

I hope that helps. My H said that there was never a question in his mind about leaving me. They were in it just for sex but she fell in love w/ him. Then when she started making demands on him like a wife, he would back away. But she would get him back by making him feel sorry for her, sex, whatever, threatening to tell me...I still have alot of qts about the whole thing.

One thing that I stopped asking was, didn't you think about me at all? because he would get really defensive and angry due to his guilt. You have to remember that they are in a fog and they were not acting normally. He can't believe that he would risk his family for her now that he can see it in hindsight. He felt at the time that it was not a threat to the M because he was not leaving the M. He didn't stop to consider my feelings...that hurts alot...

What helps me now is when he reassures me that I am the one he wants to be with. I try to compliment him, show him affection and respect, and appreciate him more. We do love each other very very much, just stopped communicating with each other. Instead of talking to me about our problems, he gave in to her pursuit of him...Then I think he got trapped in a situation he wanted to get out of but was unable to do so. He was afraid something would happen w/ the baby if I found out before the baby was born.

I hope some of this helps. It is tough to hear the answers but I think it makes it easier to move on...If you imagine the answers, you may make it worse than it really is because you imagine the worst! (I was concerned that my kids may have met her or been introduced to her when they visited him at work. When I asked, he said, No and that she wouldn't even look at pictures of his kids because she said she would never meet them...How's that? She was so in love w/ him and wanted him to leave, but was not going to meet his kids...

Have a good night. It's nice to vent and share similar stories. I will check back with you tomorrow. Take care!

Thanks for your answers--I appreciate so much the time you took to think things through with me.

We read "Surviving the Affair" together and both agreed it was helpful, but my H has been a little reluctant to follow through on all of the ideas, like the 15 hours, and filling out hte questionnaire. I filled mine out. (Although I did it according to me present feelings, not my feelings before the A--this was a goof but worked out well because I wrote out a lot of my feelings and was able to take the time to phrase things so that it wasn't an angry vent--but a constructive way to express how I was feeling.) He promised several times to do his, but wouldn't. Then I told him to at least rank his EN's--he promised he would, but didn't. So I have been going off of the most common male EN's and trying to meet those.

I am pretty confident that recreation is one (he complained during the A that "it was too boring to sit around the house"), and SF, he is a guy, after all. And I know it's important to him for me to take care of the house and the kids--cook, clean, domestic stuff. But admiration probably fits in there, too. I'm sure he got plenty of that from her, and I think his self esteem was hurting when he was passed over for the promotion at his work.

I have read HN/HN, but my H hasn't tried to get into that, he says it is "basically the same thing" which is generally true, so I haven't pressed that issue.

But something that frustrated me was, in reading the "case studies" in both books, I couldn't really find an obvious parallel to my M. I've stopped driving myself nuts on this point, but it still nags at me. Before the A--there weren't any glaring problems. Sure, we struggled to find alone time once the kids came along. We battled with that like all parents do. But we were doing okay, I thought. We were no worse than many couples I know, and their H's didn't cheat. So I am just resigned that there are certain things about the A that I will never, ever comprehend.

I think part of what caused the length of it was just the excitement of it. He's admitted to me that they text-messaged each other constantly--so I'm sure he felt like she was very focused on him. She was married (her H has now filed for divorce) with 2 young kids, but from what her STBXH has told me, she was rarely home with them, and she rarely sees them now and has her own apartment. I think it pretty much was just sex when they were together. They met up and used her car, so what else could they do? And he was always home by 8:30 or 9:00, so there was no talking for hours or anything like that. I just don't see what was worth a whole year of our lives. What was worth 5 minutes?

My H also says he was never going to leave--so I'm sure that was part of the justification, too. But I know they did talk about it. The OW was rather vocal to some of her female associates, and the "talk" got back to me. She told them that my H "led her on" and made her believe that if she just held out for a while, he would be in a position to leave me. My H, of course, denies this vehemently. So my guess is that they are both lying a little. They probably talked about running off together, but my H thought it was all talk and she didn't. But it devestated me when the talk got to my ears. How could he even pretend something like that? We have the 2 most amazing little girls--and they love him. Their eyes light up when he comes in the room. Too young to recognize that he ignored them for a year . . . too young to be hurt by it.

He has made some signficant changes, though, so that makes me feel like we are headed in the right direction. I really am not angry anymore--just very hurt, incredibly disappointed, and I feel such distance between us. Only time will heal this, I suppose. Right now I feel like I will always be a little jaded about what it means to be in love. Maybe it just meant something different to me than it did to him? He did tell me during the A that there was "no such thing as a soul mate"--which still stings a bit. At the time, I knew he was saying that he and I weren't. But I guess he didn't feel that way about her either.


Maybe he's not capable of that connection with anyone.

Anyway--enough rant for tonight. Have a good evening--and I'll check back later. I hope all is well for you and your H.

Take care!
-C

Hey C,

I just wanted to bump this up and I will respond later. what I have been doing is copying your post and then typing my comments in Word, and then coming back and pasting it in. It is quicker for me and I don't have to keep the MB site up on my screen.

Here goes...

My H read some of the printouts from the website on Infidelity and the Love Bank. He has not read any of the books (he is not a reader) but at first was willing to let me read to him. We did the EN questionnaires in Jan, like I said, for pre A and the present.. BUT we have not yet reviewed them with each other...This has been brought up by me several times. I haven't pushed more, but want to get it done this weekend. I told him last weekend that we were being lazy.

Anyway, I think you are probably right about your H's ENs. I have a confession to make==I sneaked and looked at his completed questionnaire after a month had gone by and we hadn't done it. I was a bit surprised. SF was #1 (that wasn't a surprise), BUT domestic support was also up there, higher than I would have thought. Physical attractiveness was also high, and conversation and admiration were lower than I thought. Recreation was low (he doesn't really have many activities outside home, watches alot of sports on tv). Affection was also high for him. I think that you should tell your H that you really need him to do this. I know I say this and I haven't done it either, but I think you will get resentful if your Ens aren't being met and his are. I know that is how I have been feeling lately, especially the last few wks. How can he meet them, if he doesn't know what they are? I think my H was reluctant to review the answers because he was afraid to find out how he was doing meeting my needs, both pre a and after. See, he wasnt' meeting my ENs then either...He just doesn't want to see it written , I think he realizes it now.

If your H says the A was about SF only, that is pretty sure that SF will be #1. Otherwise, the whole reason of the A is not true, that 's how I see it with my H also. If you say it was all for SF, then that HAS to be your #1. Oh, and Openness and Honesty was also up there on his list (I was like, what a hypocrite---you want O&H but won't give it)....

The excitement of it was a big reason for the length in my opinion also. They did not text message but called each other all the time. My H got a cell phone for the first time last Feb, I thought it was because I was pregnant, and he worked nights, so it was so I could always reach him. That was part of it but the big part was so they could call each other (he will not admit this, but he called her first when he got it. Then he called me to tell me he got it. What does that tell you? We hadn't even discussed him getting a phone, he just went and did it). He was always talking on the phone at home, going outside w/ it to smoke and talk . I didn't know he was talking to OW of course. I never ever even touched his phone (didn't know how to use it)...so didn't have a clue...

Anyway like I said before she was single and had her own apartment so that is where they went. He worked an hour away , I didn't know any of his coworkers, so this never got back to me, like it did to you. My H also vehemently denies that he was leaving to be w/ her...he gets very angry when this is brought up. She told people after they broke up for good that he got jealous that she was going out with someone else, that he said he left his family for her, and changed his work schedule to be with her. This makes him crazy. I don't know if it is all true or not. The guy she was seeing looks like Burl Ives /Santa Claus and is 30 yrs older than her so my H says why would he be jealous, he told her that he was glad she found someone else. He changed his schedule so he would have more time w/ family. But he gets so angry when this gets brought up, that I wonder if maybe there is some truth to it...Like you I think he may be lying to protect me...He helped her to find a new apartment, which she moved into after the break up. I wonder if maybe he was planning to move with her, it was farther away from their work, closer to our home. He says a big part of this was convenience. They both worked nights and her place was only 15 min away. They would meet there, have sex, sleep and then he'd come home (i worked days so wasn't around anyway)...He said she wrote him love letters that he kept at her place so i wouldn't find them. I wonder if there is some truth to what she is saying...You know he protests it so much. I think maybe he led her on to think that he may still keep her around...but he refuses to admit it. I think I told you she said she was not going to meet his kids, she couldn't take care of her own, and I know for a fact that he would not leave his kids...He would also not trust her to watch his kids (he told me that the few times that she did take care of her son (her mother keeps him) that she let him at 2 yrs old play in the unfenced front yard that is right next to a very busy street, while she was inside watching tv....THAT is why she doesn't have custody, she has no responsiblity so he knew she was not for him. He would never abandon his kids to be with anyone.

As for what you said about your M is not in the case studies,. that is not unusual if you read alot of the posts on MB. Many As happen in "happy M's"...Read Fantastgirls posts. SHe says her H even said he was happy. Many BS s say that the M was happy. there was alot of SF , etc. It is something in the WS that makes them do it. It is not YOUR fault...You know that, I hope...My H has a hard time taking responsilbilty for his actions. I told him that I accept my responsibiltiy in the pre-A marriage but HE made the CHOICE to have the A. He owns that. He admitted that he did choose to do this....Of course he regrets it now, but he did admit that. That was a tough thing for him to do. Maybe your H is similar?

I also get what you are saying about being jaded, not feeling the same, what does marriage mean to him? I wonder about my H also. He told me that he grew up w/ alot of men having the wife and a woman on the side and he can understand why now. I wonder if maybe this is why he thought there was no threat to our M, that he thought it was OK to do. I 'm not so angry anymore either, and feel all of the things you describe (very hurt, incredibly disappointed, and I feel such distance between us. Only time will heal this, I suppose. Right now I feel like I will always be a little jaded about what it means to be in love.),...but I think it will get better. last week I was like I'm not in love w/ him and don' t know if I ever will be again. This week, I see a little spark of the love between us, and I think it will return. I'm a big believer in the Love Bank theory and just need to get back to the MB stuff.

Ask your H, is the best possible outcome of this situation that the parents of your children are in love with each other? If the answer is yes, then we have to do what we can to make this happen and that means doing the MBquestionnaires, meeting needs,etc. (I read this in MB, and asked him a little diffferently, but his answer was yes, so that is how I started up again about doing MB).]

Time is what we need and it will take alot of it, 1-2 yrs...The A was a fantasy that the Hs started to realize when reality started to come in...You are what he wants, and his family ...try to enjoy the present, the good days...try not to pressure him to respond...try to expect nothing, it's hard but try to do it anyway...Tell him that you need to do the ENs though. If you do a little bit at a time, maybe he will do it.

Good luck. Let me know how it goes. I hope you have a good weekend!!

M

Okay--I guess I need to really encourage him to do something with his EN questionnaire. After he read mine, I think he felt like a big jerk (I really spent a lot of time explaining how he had treated me during the A and how it made me feel, that sort of thing. Not mean--but straightforward). So that may have discouraged him a bit to fill out his. I told him that if he didn't tell me what his needs were, how could I meet them? He said, "just keep being you." Whatever. Like "being me' kept him from having an A in the first place. But he's had a little break now and is maybe ready to get back to the MB stuff.

I also really believe in the Lovebank theory. The whole MB concept really struck a chord with me--it said so many of the things I was feeling but hadn't articulated. After DDay, I didn't kick my H out (which was my first instinct) and I started doing a "plan A" without really knowing it. So I do believe that, in time, the Lovebank thing will work for us. I told you that my H had planned a trip for us this Spring. He was showing me on the internet the hotels he had reserved for us, and they are beautiful. He was soooo proud of himself that he had done a romantic thing for me, all on his own. That was a really nice deposit. He also calls and "checks in" from time to time now--something he NEVER did before and was actually really against. And a bigger effort to show me affection--hold my hand, snuggle, that good stuff. He is really trying, and I try and tell him that it means a lot to me.

I have read quite a few other posts from people who were in "good marriages" before the A--and they all seem as confused as I am. It is a little comforting to know that my situation is not completely isolated, but still so confusing. He has told me repeatedly that he was happy before the A, and so was I. And I would NEVER have done this to him. I just try and set aside this frustration and focus on what positive things I can do to improve my marriage, instead of focusing on what negative things existed before. Some days that helps.

But it bothers me to think that maybe marriage never meant to him what it means to me. His supervisor with his work also works with me (we both work for the City in different but related departments). His supervisor had a fatherly chat with my H as everything was coming out, and then he talked with me afterward. I told him that I had thought seriously about kicking H out, and he said, without even pausing, "You wouldn't have done that." "Really, why?" And then he told me "because marriage means something different to you." I know he meant this as a compliment--he is a thoughtful man and has been very supportive of me and H. But I wonder if the problems with me and H can ever really be fixed if, at the very core, he is not committed to marriage.

It seems strange that he wouldn't be--because his mom cheated on his dad when he was growing up, and it devestated his family. The parents divorced and it was a very bitter thing. I guess that's at least part of why his A was such a shock. He knew better than anyone how hurtful it would be.

But--now I feel guilty. I have made him sound like such a jerk! And the man I married isn't a jerk--I really don't believe he was. He told me that he would prove to me that he could be a good husband and father. I'm glad I'm giving him that chance.

Thanks for the chat. I am going to try and have a conversation with him tonight--some of those questions you suggested.

Have a great weekend--I'll check back later.

-C.

Hi C,

One thing that you may want to do is to have you BOTH take the EN questionnaires again. YOu said that you spent alot of time on the first one and he wasn't meeting needs. How about now? If you did it now, I think he would be pleased to see how he is coming closer to meeting needs now. (YOu say he checks in now, is more affectionate, etc) all of this is progress...that is why we did it based on two different times in our M (and it was my H's suggestion). This may also help him feel like MB is not full of blaming him as the WS. IT will help you meet his needs and he will see how you are appreciating the changes he has made....good luck with it! You may want to try doing the Questionaire now and hold off on asking him detailed qts about the A for now... It may be too much for him to handle all at once, you know. You don't want to scare him, you know?


You said "because his mom cheated on his dad when he was growing up, and it devestated his family. The parents divorced and it was a very bitter thing. I guess that's at least part of why his A was such a shock. He knew better than anyone how hurtful it would be." This is just like my H also. His mom cheated on his dad (he didn't find out until he was an adult) but his dad cheated on his mom when he was a kid and his mom threw him out. His dad ended up marrying the OW, having 2 kids and then they got a divorce after 20 yrs (his wife cheated on him with another man. See the vicious cycle)...This is what also surprised me (and his mother when she found out he had the A.. She said, how could he do this when he knows the pain this caused. She told me that it had to have just been sex with him because he never wanted to have his kids grow up without him...She also told me that alot of men that he knew in his family and neighborhood, had wives and OW on the side. It was accepted as long as the wife was not disrespected...I had no idea about this...

this makes it hard to understand...but I am also like you and think, maybe this means that he was never as committed to the M as me because he had this background. We will never really know. I dont think they will admit it...but hopefully they have learned their lesson and now realize they want us, the home and the kids...You never appreciate what you have until it's gone...

Please don't feel guilty about saying these things. My H is a good man and father too. If he wasn't a good man, he wouldn't be sticking with you....my H also deserves a chance....It is good to get these feelings out with someone who understands. This way you can get these out so you won't LB on your H...That's how I look at it....

That is also great that your H is planning your getaway in the spring...very big Love Bank deposit there...

Have a great weekend and talk. Try to listen and learn...show him that you appreciate him...

Take care,
MF

CSJ,

Just checking in to see how your weekend went? Did you and your H go over any MB stuff or your questions?

Hope you had a nice weekend. I'm sick with a cold after taking care of everyone else this weekend. Will be back later this afternoon to check in.

MF

MF-

Okay, so the "talk" didn't go so well. We were having an easy chat last night (Sunday) and I threw in a question about the EN questionnarie. "Did you get that done--I still need to know what I can do better." He first acted confused--"Didn't I do that? I think I started it . . ." But wouldn't say what EN he thought were important. "Just do what you're doing. I'm fine . . . No, I'm great--that's even better than fine, isn't it?"

Okay, so he was kidding around a bit, maybe move into a more serious question. So I asked about the A. Why was it a year--a year is such a long time. "I don't know. I don't want to talk about it." Roll over--close eyes. End of conversation. I try so hard to make him feel "safe" to talk about it. I had a few angry outbursts when I initially found out--and I think I was entitled to those. But really, it's been months since I really vented on him.

So this topic is still off limits, I guess. I need to talk it through--I need to understand it. But he needs to bury it. He cannot face me--he cannot speak about it to me. I have thought all this time that nothing could hurt worse than being betrayed by your spouse--but maybe I was wrong. Maybe it hurts worse to be the WS. I'm not sure if this is a normal WH phase--or a male problem--or just a personality quirk peculiar to my H, but he can't seem to be introspective--he can't look at his actions as say "I was feeling this way" or "this is why I reacted this way." So he can't say why the A affair happened, and he doesn't even want to try. Did your H go through this? Should I just wait it out and try again in a month or so?

So Sunday wasn't such an up day. Sundays are tough on me anyway, I suppose because at church there's such an emphasis on the ideal--on what a marriage should be. And my marriage is so far from the ideal right now. I look around and see so many happy couples, so many husbands that didn't cheat. It's hard not to compare yourself to everyone else, isn't it? But then I do recognize that appearances aren't everything. My marriage appeared to be fine, too. Everyone has a different set of problems.

And it was my birthday, too. I really enjoy my daughter's birthdays so much more than my own! My parents wrote in their card "you deserve the best that life has to offer." I do--I did. I haven't told them about the A. They don't live closeby, plus the A was already over by the time that I found out about it. So there didn't seem to be much point in "exposing" to them. They would be just devastated. And they would never be able to look at my H the same way again. So they still adore my H and are so kind to him--which of course makes him feel even more guilty. But I did expose to my H's Dad and Step-Mom. They live very close and would have heard the gossip anyway--so I wanted them to hear from us first. Plus I knew his Dad would be devastated and sit my H down for a good talk--which he did. They told me in their B-day card "we are so fortunate to have you as a daughter." Their support has been SO good. But the whole situation is not the birthday cheer I would have hoped for.

And milestones like this always make me wonder what my H was doing LAST year at this time. Did he call the OW or meet her on my birthday? Christmas?

But I've made it four months since DDay. And that's four months longer than I thought I could. So there's a thought to smile with! I hope your weekend was a good one, and that you're feeling better. I'll check in again tomorrow.

-C.

You know, all last evening, I kept thinking about what you mentioned with your H--that his parents had gone through an A, too. It all seems to counter-intuitive, you know? That someone could live through that heartache and then allow themselves to hurt their own spouse in the same way. But both of our H's have done just that. I wonder if it's kind-of like living in an abusive household? There have been so many studies about what damage that inflicts on children because so many go on to be perpetrators themselves. Perhaps children in both types of households end up justifying the behavior in the same way--they hate it at the time, but don't know how to do anything differently.

My F-in-law told me that when my H was about 10 yo he confronted his own M about her A. He had seen his M and the OM out jogging together and knew exactly what was really going on. Right during family dinner he blurted out, "So Mom, what were you doing with OM today?" Created a very awkward moment. But F-in-law was really proud of my H, because he had the courage to confront his mom about it. He and his M had some really rough times when the divorce went through because he continued to remind her what she was doing was wrong. She ended up kicking him out of the house when he was just a teen-ager. Her A continued for 10 years before she ultimately dumped the guy and he went back to his wife.

I always thought this whole experience had really given my H a unique appreciation for marriage--yet he was pretty cavalier about tossing our relationship aside, at least temporarily. So strange. And even after watching the soap opera his parent's divorce turned into--I don't think it occurred to him during his A that, if things came to light, I really might leave him. I think he really did justify things be telling himself that no one would ever find out, so no one would be hurt. But the first time I really vented at him after DDay, the light finally went on in his head that he really could loose everything that had been important to him.

Maybe this mentality is really a component of many affairs--one spouse just doesn't take the commitment seriously.

Hope you're feeling better today!

-C

Hi CSJ,

Happy Belated Birthday!!! I also enjoy my kids' bdays more than my own. I tend to expect to much and then get disappointed when my H doesn't do this grand gesture. My birthday is not until next month, and I'm not looking forward to it. My H's is next week and I know I will also be wondering, what did OW get him for his birthday? We have not been good about giving bday gifts to each other. My son's bday is the following week, and we always seemed to put our own bdays out of the way for his. We are all in April...Milestones suck bigtime...I am constantly thinking about what was going on last year..It has gotten easier for me...It WILL get easier for you..

Okay, so your talk didn't go well. Have you been to Marriage counseling at all? Is he willing to work at the M or does he just want to "move on"? My H wanted to move on, still does, hates to talk about the A. I wanted to know all about it...I think that you need to push him on your recovery efforts. Easy for me to say as I still need to push my H on this also. It will not go away on its own. I got some advice from a poster a couple months ago. She and I were in similar situations (like you and I). Her H's A lasted over 1 yr and she was pregnant at the time of it. His A continued until her DD was 18 mos old. She suggested that I write down every question I had, until I had no more...Write down a list, no matter how big or small the question...Write like you had only one chance to get the answers. Re read the list and finetune it. Then try to find out the purpose of each qt or groups of qts. You want to get at how the answer will help you in your recovery...Then, you can see if the answer will truly help you to move on, or if it is just curiousity, or what? Then , you can do a few things, there have been alot of suggestions on this board--you can write it up neatly (I tried to group my qts by topic) and give it to your H and tell him you want the answers. You can do this by setting aside an appt w/ him to do this and tell him you will give him the qts in advance. He may be afraid to hurt you more by telling you the truth, and he won't want to be blindsided. He's probably afraid that you are going to ask him sexual comparison qts or something like that. You need to also set a time limit for the talk so it won't go on forever. I also did a lot of angry outbursts, and Yes, I agree that we are justified in this. But you will realize that if you reward his honesty with calmness instead of anger, he will be more willing to open up. When he tells you something truthful that makes you want to scream and rant, say "thank you for your honesty"...I had to bite my tongue but I did it. You also have to try not to ask the "What about me?" questions that I would always throw at him--didn't you think of me then? Why didn'tyou think about me? Did you feel guilty about what you were doing to me?? etc. You get the idea. You want to get him to talk about HIM...How was HE feeling, etc.

I got as far as making my list...I didn't give it to him...yet...still would like to . I haven't gotten all my qts answered yet either. But it helped me to figure out what I really needed to know. This exercise may or may not help you. It helped me to kind of sort out the areas I had qts in. For exxample, since I didn't know what she looked like, alot of my qts were about her physical appearance. I asked about specific instances that I remembered him leaving, specific days, some of these I have asked my H, and some not.

I don't think you should wait a month. that is a long time...try to bring up the EN qts again, set aside a time and tell him that you want to take them over based on how you are feeliing NOW...this is for both of you so that he will know your needs too..He is going to have to do something to help in your recovery...My H is not a reader so hasn't read the books or anything. I know how you feel. I hate to push too, but I get resentful that he doesn't care enough to even find out what my ENs are.

It's good that your parents don't know about the A because as you say, they would treat him much differently. And his parents should know. I'm glad that your FIL talked to him. My FIL talked to my H too and the funny thing is he understands, but loves me to death and told him he made big mistakes...He is thankful that I am staying by my H. My MIL says that I am a better woman than she is. that they both had As, they were young when they Md (18) and it was too much (he was in Vietnam when she had her A)...

I also understand about Sundays and church. We just started to go to church as a family in Dec and it has been good for us. But alot of the time, I feel the pastor is talking about us, he talks about how adultery is just THINKING of being with another woman, etc. You never know what kind of M people have, and many happily Md people are in As and you would just never know it...I asked my H if he would go to couples counseling w/ the pastor and he doesn't want to. We did MC for three sessions but stopped due to insurance issues. I would like to go back when we can. It helped.

I get what you are saying in your last post about the commitment of M not being shared equally. I also question this w/ my H. I also didn't have a good loving example of an M. My parents fought and D'd when I was 18 . This made me more committed to my H, I thought. I am not sure about him anymore. I wonder if he truly was leaving her or if he is just telling me that. He justified it all by saying that he was not leaving, therefore the kids won't be hurt, won't go through a D like I did, and I will be able to raise my kids...this is how he thought. He just didn't think of me AT ALL and he admitted as much. I was NEVER meant to find out. He didn't get attached. She swore she wouldn't tell anyone, wouldn't fall in love w/ him, it just happened that she did....THIS bothers me tremendously, that his commitment to me is not the same as my commitment to him...

I wish I had more time to write but I wanted to post this now so you don't think I forgot about you. I hope this helps. Read Arks' post "Be still" again...it is a good one to printout and keep close when you want to react to what H says...

Have a good night.!

Hey MF-

Thanks for the B-Day wishes! I've definately had better ones, but it was alright. My H's Dad and Step-Mom made a nice dinner for us, and my H did an fine job picking out a present without any prompting from me. He handed it to me in the bag from the store (complete with receipt inside), so he's guilty of being a bit tacky, but he is a guy. Tacky I can live with.

We talked about going to MC initially, but didn't go. For my part, I was really afraid that a counselor would talk me out of trying to work on my M at all. Early on, I was feeling so much anger, and looking back on all my H's flaws, I was really concerned the counselor would listen to me vent and say, "well, you were never happy, anyway . . ." But the truth is I was happy. My H has never been a perfect guy--but I have never claimed perfection either. We are very different people in some respects, but I always thought that our differences complemented each other, so I was willing to overlook the aspects of my M that did not complete fulfill my expectations. Once I made the decision to give my H a chance, I didn't want a counselor pulling me in another direction.

For my H's part, he is a very private person and rarely shares his feelings with anyone. Before his A came out, I had seen him express real sadness only once. I have a hard time picturing him opening up to a counselor. When we first spoke of it, he said he was willing to go, but when I didn't push it, he didn't either. He did look into the phone counseling with the Harley's on this website, but when he saw the price he ruled that out.

So now we are looking at counseling with our church leader. My H has already done this several times, and I have once. I am thinking there would probably be a benefit to following up on that some more, for my own benefit. I think my H will go more also, at my continued urging. He has been asked to make some regular appointments so he can get back into "good graces."

But ultimately I think he would like to just move on and not look back. I think his definition of "working on the marriage" is primarily not cheating again. That, and a few minor adjustments that he's made after reading "SAA." I think, given time, his efforts there will make the biggest difference, becaues that will gradually make a difference in the "Love Bank." Mine was empty, but it's getting better. It's going to take a while. But sometimes, we'll be talking and laughing, and it feels almost like old times. I remember loving him and loving that he made me laugh. I want to get back to that, and I know my H does, too. He seems to feel that the quickest way is just to leave the past in the past. Don't dwell in it, don't talk about it, don't think about it. And there is probably an element of trying to "save my feelings, too." Why admit to details that will only make me feel badly (of course, this helps him too--some admissions would make him look like a bigger jerk than he wants to).

This, of course, ignores my need to UNDERSTAND why this happened. I don't know if its some female thing, or a BS thing, but I do have the questions I want to talk through. I like very much your idea of writing them out and categorizing them. I know some of my lingering questions are really just sick curiosity--details that will really not help me. But others are not, and I want him to discuss those. And the EN's must have answers--you are right. We don't have a really healthy marriage if he is making some gestures aimed at meeting my needs, and I'm left to stab in the dark about what his needs are.

It's always good to visit, MF. Somehow it seems like we should have a nice long chat over lunch. But you are probably in a totally different time zone! Maybe tomorrow I will eat some chips and salsa at my desk while I type, and it will make it feel like lunch.

Have a great evening, and I will check back tomorrow!

-C.

Hi C,

I was wondering about our timezones too--I'm in CT and right now it is 1:00 pm EST and I"m about to go out for lunch. Just wanted to check in.

I know what you mean about it feeling like old times sometimes. I love that. I love to watch my H with the kids and feel a bit of the old feeling towards him.

There are alot of Pro-marriage MC's out there. Ours started the first session saying he was an advocate for the M and sometimes it would seem as if he was on one side or the other but he really wasn't, he was on the side of the M.

I sometimes think it would be best to move on but then I really think I will only truly move on when I don't have these lingering thoughts. I think that needing to understand is a BS thing, because I see alot of men who are the BS trying to understand also...I don't know if we ever will truly understand.

I know that my H and I have alot of work to do to make our M healthy. Right now I feel like we are slipping back to how it was pre-A and I feel like we are settling into old habits...I'm fighting this feeling right now.

well I have to go now because I'm starving, but will check back later to see if I catch you (I leave work at 5 EST).

Have a good day...chips and salsa sounds pretty good right now!
C

MF-

Connecticut? I've never been there! I am in MST in Utah, in fairly small community not far from where the 2002 Olympics were held. Pretty mountains, but too much snow.

That's good that you found a positive marriage counselor. I was so nervous about what would even be out there. My FIL thought that the counselor he and my MIL used before their divorce was NOT good. Kind-of encouraged MIL that all the focus should be on herself and what she needed and wanted rather than looking at the marriage. Obviously didn't help them. I had heard negative things from others, too. But maybe I am really missing the boat here. Maybe I am an idiot for thinking that we can do this on our own!

But I am not sure if even a pro-marriage counselor would contribute much at this stage. My H and I get along well--always did actually. The snag is trying to talk about the A, and I don't think my H would do that with someone he didn't know. He just seems to have a mental block when it comes to dealing with his feelings in this area. At first I thought he was really being evasive and not wanting to be totally honest with me about why it happened. But now I am thinking that he really doesn't understand why himself. My tentative conclusion is that there isn't a single reason--I think that there were a number of factors that contributed and made him vulnerable to this OW's advances.

Part I think is the parenting cycle you have spoken of--I think my H really did feel neglected after DD2 was born. Actually, it probably started with DD1. My H would complain from time to time that I had turned into a "mother bear" and that I needed to just relax and not focus so much on her. I did carve out a block of time each evening for us to spend time together after I put her to bed--but I think he still carried some resentment that I had changed a bit in becoming a mother. But I make no apologies for this. Being a Mom DOES make you different!

And I think there were some self-esteem issues, too. He was passed over for a promotion that he viewed as being a make-or-break opportunity. And I had just started a new position that was a nice bump for me--that probably hurt his ego a bit. He had always really eaten up compliments from other females--he would frequently come home a brag a bit when someone said something flattering to him. We would laugh, but I was never worried about it at all. But for some reason, the attention from the OW wasn't something that he ever mentioned to me. He knew, I'm sure, that I wouldn't find this one amuzing or harmless--and I guess he was feeling enough like he WANTED it to continue, so he didn't want me to stop it. So down the slippery slope he went.

But it is all so petty, and it still boggles my mind. YEARS of building something and investing into a FAMILY--all at the brink of being lost for someone that really, they didn't care about at all. Ultimately--there isn't a real reason for an A. So I guess all of us need to accept that we will never truly understand it.

So my challenge now is to try and redefine our relationship so that neither of us get to that vulnerable place again. It's funny you mentioned you carry around ARK's post--and so do I. Although the one I printed out is an answer she actually directed to you--the one about "planting a seed" to build on. I have been trying to think about how I could do this--to get to a place where my H and I can talk about what happened.

I feel like we slip into pre-A habits, too. So easy to do. There were reasons, after all, that we all acquired those habits in the first place! So I am trying to boil it down to some real basics: block out time together--do things for him that I know will make him feel loved. But it is hard. He still wants to have his "time to himself" where he can meet his guy friends (they drink beer in a shed--sounds boring to me, but whatever) or go to the gym. I hate that d**m place.

But I hope lunch was good--I better get back to work. I will check back later.

Take care,
C.

Hey C,

And I've never been to Utah...so we are even there...

Yes, things DO change when you become a mom...At least you set time aside for him after the baby was asleep. I didn't really do that. I do feel like I took him for granted but it was not intentional...I was trying to be the good wife and mother and take care of his kids...He always stressed this, that I was a great mother. Last year, I was feeling like I had lost myself and would complain to him that I had. This was right around the time the A happened, before I realized I was pregnant. I was feeling like all i was was a mom, and when I got pregnant, this feeling only got worse. Like he just wanted me to be barefoot and pregnant... I was the ultimate self sacrificing mom, not buying things for myself, going without new clothes, shoes, haircut, so that I could get things for the kids (or for him). To do something just for myself was unheard of...I just kind of stopped making the effort and thought My H would always love me no matter what...

I agree that the A is not caused by just one thing. it's alot of things that come into play. He may not really know because he was in such a different frame of mind, you know that FOG that everyone talks about here...My H never considered leaving me, but he said that he was anxious and afraid that I would find out. The A lost its appeal when she made demands on him, but he couldn't find a safe way to get out of it.

Ark's post about planting a seed is a great one. It takes alot of patience. Here is a comment from FantastiGirl that I also copied. It is a good way to tell your H that you need to talk, without Lbing.

"Lovingly explain to your partner that you are still in pain over what happened and loving them and forgiving them is so important to you that you are willing be so careful not to hurt their feelings in your discussion about it, so that you can both let go of the pain and move on. But without being heard you will feel like you don't matter to them, and that's how you felt during that bad time, so it is a terrible trigger. You need their help to heal, and you agree to do everything you can to help them heal in return.

That's your starting point. Hold on to your dignity, your compassion and your self-respect. If they AO, mirror back, I can see you feel like my not forgetting yet is consciously meant to harm you.

I don't want you to feel harmed, at the same time I also am feeling harmed by perception that you don't want to help me heal, and that really hurts since I feel as if you don't care that you hurt me.."

Haven't done this one yet. But I keep it in the back of my mind...

Gotta go..will check in later...

MF

Hi MF & cjs,

I hope you gals don't mind that I butt in on your thread.
I have been reading threads here today since 8:00 a.m.!
I have found this thread to be especially helpful for me in raising ways to ask certain questions I have yet to have answered. H is not very informative when he does answer my questions. So that leaves me feeling like I have more...
I also have such a hard time getting up the courage to ask and discuss these things. The fear of his feeling like I am dragging him through the past.... AGAIN....

Personally, I just can't let go of this, and fight this "need" to understand. I need to understand this on so many different levels. And since he still works with "it" I am not able to release my fears of future/further betrayl or white lies.

H has said they pretty much aviod each other at work. For instance, he says "it" saw him in the breakroom one night and immediately turned and walked out. Is this the truth or just something to try to ease my fears?
He has been leaving work a bit later than he was when I was working and says it is only to get a few extra minutes of OT in. But by doing this, he is also leaving around the same time "it" does. And since he is leaving for home during a.m. rush hour, it is very convenient to use the "stuck in traffic" excuse for being later arriving home than in the past. which to me makes little sense as it is only a 45 min difference and there is the same amount of traffic at this time.
He told me when they started "getting friendlier" it was when he helped "it" out when "it" needed a ride home from work a few times, when "it" let "it's" kid use the car.
I fear the white lies of NC and that he could be "helping" "it" again. Or chatting in the parking lot. He admitted he is curious abou thow "it" is doing and how things are going with "it's" 16 yo son and his knocked up gf.
I told H this was NO CONCERN of his and to ask would be making "it" think he may still care or have "feelings".

It is these sort of things that make me feel I need to keep asking questions.
As loving as H has been and the things he does do to try and reassure me he is in our marriage and with me all the way, I just can't help but hold on to my suspcions and fears. His lies in the past were so convincing and elabortly told that when he tells me things now I do not know what is truth or lies.

My self confidence and self esteem is so shattered that I still walk on eggshells.
Add to that, that things are staring to be like they were pre-A in some ways that I fear a re-lapse on his part.
One little chat with "it" and BAM!

I don't know you guys, do you think I am being overly paranoid or do I make a good case for my questions?

And as for boundries.... How do I tell H what I need? Especially with out coming accross as being demanding or controlling? I hate thinking that he is reminded of his infidelity every time he calls me in the morning to tell me he is on is way home from work. Then, when he walks in the door 1/2 an hour later than he should be, gives me elaboarte explainations about why it took so long. I know he sees the fear in my eyes every day.
How do I handle this one?

Thanks for letting me BUTT in on your thread.

Be well,

MF-

Yes, it is hard not to loose yourself in being a mother. Sometimes it feels noble to define yourself as "MOM" and then other times you forget who you are. I've had many of those moments myself. But one things about this whole BS experience is that I have discovered many new things about myself that I really like. I like that I can forgive someone who hurt me so deeply. It's nice to find out that you're a nicer person than you thought you were.

My H said he felt "trapped" in his A also. I read in one of the Harley's articles that men in particilar tend to become very depressed because of this--they sense they are stuck and they don't know what to do. That explained a lot to me about the way my H was acting--I thought he seemed very depressed, but I just couldn't figure out why.

Thanks for Fantastigirl's post--I will print that one out too. I have been thinking lately that maybe I need to just plan out some things that I can say--and tell him up front that I am not expecting a response. That will give me a chance to feel like I have been heard, and give him some time to process it without feeling like he needs to be on the defensive for a round of questions.

Besides just talking--another thing that we did that I think helped both of us was a home improvement project. We put some tile in the entryway and put up some beadboard on one wall. It wasn't really intended to be therapy when it started--in fact I actually bought the tile when he was still in his A and he wasn't interested at all. But a few months ago I painted and he tiled and when we were done we had done something together that looked nice and made our home feel nice. We've been planning some other projects like that.

Howdy H-

How frustrating that you H still works with the OW! I don't think I would feel comfortable with that AT ALL. I know it's easier said than done, but is there a way for him to find a different job? It just seems like it's flirting with disaster.

I do have a minimal level of trust with my H to have a LIMITED amount of time to himself to go to the gym or hang out with his friends--but it is scheduled and he gives me a time to expect him home, etc., so I can feel comfortable that he's not using his time as a cover to meet with OW. But if he WORKED with her EVERY DAY????? No way. I would live in fear, as you describe. And that isn't a good recovery environment for either of you.

Well, gotta run and get back to the family. The girls are waiting for dinner!

I'll check in later-have a good night.

-C.

Thank you CSJ for validating my feelings. It is so very hard to accept him working with "it". If he forgets to call me in the a.m. before he leaves work I am so upset by the time he gets home. Always has an explanation ready though for what happened in traffic.
Red Flags? Paranioa? Time will tell if the stories and "tardieness keep happening.
I so wish he could find a new job. But this job came after a hard, 2 month long search after loosing an "ideal" job he had for 3 years at our former church.
He went back to the only vocation he knows and has no formal education to further his career or options.
He'll never go back to another church either as he is so jaded about them.

So, until he learns to better communicate with me and play by the rules, I will continue to live in fear..... How fun!
Now, if I had the ways and means to take care of myself and the kids, that might be a different story. I could possibly feel empowered to make some make or break decisions. I'd rather have my marriage though in a new, recovered, stronger than ever way.

Be well,

Hello ladies,

Harmonie, I understand your feelings of anxiety when your H comes home later than expected. This is part of the whole thing about being a BS. Lies my H told that I don't know were complete lies, half truths or what. My mind is so confused that I don't know what to think...So what you need to do is to make it clear to your H how this makes you feel. He does not need to work a few extra minutes for OT. How much $ extra is it>? Not enough to cause you stress and anxiety while you are waiting for him to come home. The more times that he is trustworthy, the more you will be able to trust him. Trust but Verify. ANd he should NOT be talking to OW about ANYTHING that is not work related. You are NOT being paranoid, but you need to find a way to express how this triggers you back to the A when he comes home later than expected. I read in one of the Harley books how honesty is so essential to your recovery that there can be NO little white lies or anything, on either Spouse's part. No matter how meaningless it may seem at the time.

CSJ, Yes, I have also discovered some things about myself. Some things I did not like about who I was at the time of the A and I have stepped up and made changes... I never would have thought I could stay with a cheating spouse, but I guess you never really know until you are faced with it.

Trapped in the A is a common feeling. I also read how NC has to be NC because the temptation is so great to start up again. This makes sense. My H worked with OW in another dept. he said that he would back away from her but she would pursue him, that alot of the calls the last few months were her fighting w/ him, calling him and fighting w/ him...He kept getting sucked back in because she was so desperate and needy and all alone.

Glad to hear that you did some home projects together. That is a good way to rebuild your commitment as a team...good therapy...and your house will look good too!

Well, I hope you are both having good days. I am getting ready to leave work (1/2 day today) and am glad for the weekend. I hope to have some M issues discussed this weekend.

Have a good weekend and I'll be back on Monday,
MF

Does you H still work with the OW also, MF? Just curious about how you dealt with that. Just another monkey wrench in what was already a pretty big mess.

I'm getting psyched up to have (or try to have) another talk with H. He has been really chipper lately--even went so far as to sell his truck and buy a brand new one. This is rather unusual for him--he is pretty tight with his purse strings, so I was pretty surprised when he started talking about wanting a new truck last week.

But I think it's a positive thing. I can't imagine him wanting to spend money like that if he wasn't feeling pretty comfortable with the way things were at home. He didn't want to spend ANYTHING during the A. Didn't want to go anywhere, do anything. He did go to the mall a few times to buy new clothes for himself--which was a first in our entire relationship. I thought it was wierd at the time, and even wondered who he was trying to look nice for, but then dismissed it. A few weeks ago I read that this behavior was a huge red flag for an A. There were so many red flags, and I simply closed my eyes. Makes me feel so stupid now.

But my first order of business is going to be to get going with the EN Questionnaire. And I think plan a date night. We've been slipping into some of the old habits, I think, and getting pulled into separate directions. That is going to be a lifetime challenge. Niether of us have even been real hobbyists who did a lot of elaborite activities together. For years we have been homebodies--and that only increased after the kids came along. But I think now part of the A was that H was getting bored and wanted to do something else. The problem now is that his current favorite thing to do is to hang with the guys. This doesn't exactly include me, does it? So I'm working on some couple things--challenging.

Despite it all, though, it's been a good week. I was having a down week last week, but things are looking up today. Excited for the weekend, maybe. But I'll check in for a status report on how everyone is doing on Monday.

Enjoy the weekend ladies!

-CSJ

CSJ,

No, my H no longer works there. He left the company. I would not really be able to deal with it if he did.

My H also spent money on new clothes and also the whole 'going to the gym' thing was new. As for red flags, I also saw an article on signs of an A, but it was after he had NC, but before DDay. So all the signs were there but not any more after I read the article, you know? Like, If I had read the article a month or so earlier, I would have been able to say, yes, he does that. So when I read it, I thought, he used to do this, and do that...I also feel really stupid and naive. I never thought he was capable of lying to me at the magnitude of what he did.

We are also homebodies, don't do alot of recreational activities. Anything we do, we do w/ the kids. He likes to watch tv sports and movies, so we spend alot of time at home, or out playing with the kids when the weather is nice. We have a tough time w/ Date night due to getting a babysitter for the 3 kids. He doesn't trust anyone to watch them except for my mother, and she can't handle them all at once for very long. She is 71 yrs old and just picking the baby up is tough because she weighs about 20 lbs now.


Hope you had a nice weekend. We talked a little bit. Had a good night on Friday night and reconnected with alot of SF--that is a good way to reconnect, alright...I was down last week also but feeling much better today...

Will check in later.

Mamafish-

Glad to hear you had a nice weekend. Ours went okay--it was good weather (finally) so we spent some time outside with the kids--plus took them to "Ice Age" which they loved.

I put the EN questionnaire in his face again--and he initially gave me the same reaction: laughter--"no, I'm not going to fill it out" So I took a deep breath and looked him square in the eye: "I NEED you to fill this out. PLEASE."

So he agreed without anymore begging. I was going to try and talk again, but decided against it for now. I may only be able to get him to have one real discussion about things--and it might be more fruitful if we do it after he has filled out his paper. So I will give it a little more time.

Friday night one of his guy friends had the house to himself--his W was gone--so he had a BBQ just for the guys. H said before he left he wouldn't stay long, and then called later to say "a couple of hours." I tried to wait up for him but fell asleep. He got home at about 1 am, he says. It was kind-of a bad trigger for me--remembering many evenings where I was sitting up wondering why he was late. He just doesn't have a clue what it's like to have all these awful memories. But he did call--which is more than he ever did in our relationship, even before his A. He always hated checking in like I was his mother or something. But now he is showing me that consideration, so I guess I am grateful for that.

Who would have thought I would have had to go through all this just for my H to realize it was curteous to call me and let me know where he was. Go figure.

Anyhow--back to work. Good to hear from you.

-CSJ

Hi C,

Good move for you with the EN questionnaire. And really, give yourself a pat on the back for taking it one step at a time and putting off the big talk...Let him do the qtns and then talk about that...go in small steps...then you will at least be moving in a forward direction. I'm trying to do this as well. I know you want to get all the answers now but try to remember what Ark said about planting small seeds...it helps me to keep my mouth shut sometimes...I am going to try to focus on our M rebuilding now and get him to talk about ENS and all of that. Putting the A questions on the back burner unless it comes up... It did come up in one way this weekend. My H loves classic old movies. I'm not a big fan. I like movies but usually don't have the time to sit through a movie unless the kids are asleep. I wouldn't watch an old cowboy movie on my own. Well there was an old classic on in the afternoon and he put it on and said, I know you are not really into old movies, like another female was, but I figured I would expose you to it and maybe you would like it." I got the drift that the OW liked these old movies, but you know, I didn't even mention it...I shut my mouth. I just said thanks for thinking of it like that. (the 'old' me would have said, Oh you used to watch old movies with HER! and totally LB on him..)...

One other thing that happened, was watching the Parent Trap and the fiancee says to Dennis Quaid, it's either your kids or me, and DQ says, Well them of course... My H said, I don't understand how she could think he would leave his kids. Just like OW was telling people I was leaving my family for her." I said to him, she can't understand it, or imagine it because she doesn't have it. She doesn't have the bond w/ her child that you have w/ your kids. And she never saw that side of you, interacting with them. She only saw one part of you, not all of you like I know and love". That was pretty powerful for him to hear, and I liked how I expressed it to him. I could tell he was really thinking about that in his mind.

I'm the same way with my H when he is out late. He also calls to check in now when he wouldn't before. Same thing about him acting like I was his mother or something. At least they are realizing that they shouldn't take US for granted anymore, right??

Well, getting ready to go home. Have a good night.

Hey MF-

I think that is so remarkable that your H brings up a few observations about the OW to you, just in casual conversation. I can't imagine my H ever doing this. Your H must feel very safe with you--he trusts that your relationship is not in such a fragile place. This has really been my goal, and I have made a point, since I guess mid-December, to not corner him about the A. I have just tried to focus on being kind, making him feel loved, and making our home feel like a comfortable place. I was hoping that sometime he would be able to bring it up on his own, but now I am thinking that may never happen. I think it is kind-of like that quote you gave me from Fantastagirl--he thinks speaking of it means that he is not forgiven.

But kudos to you for making into a meaningful way to express what your relationship with your H means to you. I'll bet you made loads of LB deposits with that one!

My H took us all for a ride in his new truck--he is very proud of it. He's waited quite a few years to treat himself, and he told me, as if to explain why he bought it, "It's my present to me." I just smiled and nodded, "yes--I know." I should have made it a better moment, you know? Because what I was thinking inside was "I GET that about you--I have always understood you better than you gave me credit for--and I think you deserve your truck." But I let the moment get by me. I'll have to find another now!

But hopefully he understands what I meant. We had talked of remodeling the kitchen recently (we bought my in-laws old house not long before his A started--my H had a real sentimental attachment to it, and we both wanted the acreage to raise some animals with the kids) because it is a little older and not as nice as the kitchen in our previous home. Before he bought the truck, he had told me that my kitchen was the next big purchase. But inside I knew that if we bought the kitchen this way, it would be sort of extortion--him buying me off with an expensive "sorry" for the A. And I don't want my kitchen to be a daily reminder of that--especially one that he would come to resent. So I told him--"no, you get your truck first."

Now that's love, don't you think?

Later,

-C

Hi C,

Yes, that is love with a capital L!! I'm sure he appreciates that you are putting off your kitchen work for his truck. And you can still make your moment, by buying him something special for his truck.. you know, some kind of accessory that he would like, like a massaging seat cushion or something...Browse at the auto parts store...they have a ton of stuff, holders, etc. He would love it, I'm sure.

You are doing a great thing for your H by making your home a safe haven for him. I need to work on this myself.

Well, I just lost the whole post I wrote about the book the 5 Love Languages. Have you read it ? It is good and a quick read. I got it at the library. It is similar to MB, only he calls the Love Bank the Love Tank, but the same idea...Each person expresses/ receives love in one of five languages--words of admiration, gifts, quality time, physical touch and acts of service. If your H is expressing his love to you in his language (say acts of service, washing the car, etc) and your primary love lang is gifts , and he doesn't give you gifts, you will not feel loved.

Well, gotta get to work. Hope you are having a good day.

MF-

I like the idea about something nice for his truck! He will be finishing up his last few classes next week on his MPA degree and should be getting his diploma soon. I have been puzzling about the perfect graduation present, and I think you have hit upon it! I'm going to have to do some detective work on "truck accessories" as this is not exactly my area.

I'm getting ready for a "girl trip" next week with one of my old roommates from college. We have made a nice little annual tradition of meeting for a few days in Vegas. I am really looking forward to some "me" time, but at the same time, it makes me nervous. I have not spend any time away from home since I found out about the A. I have been so afraid that if I turned my back for one second that things would unravel.

And this is too bad for my parents, because I used to try and take the girls for a weekend and drive up to see them every several months or so, and I haven't done that in quite some time now. My H has always been reluctant to go with us--he's never quite bonded with my parents, and it makes me sad. They like him and are always kind to him--but he thinks it's "boring" to visit (I admit--they live in rural Idaho and I was bored there from time to time growing up). So I went by myself and the kids. Who needs him, right? But now I think this may have contributed--at least somewhat--to the environment of his A. We did many things separately.

Anyway--maybe a little break in Vegas will be just what I need. Hope you had a nice evening--talk to you later.

-C.

Hi C,

That would be a great grad present--to give him something for his truck...

Have fun on the girls trip to Vegas (I have never been there). I think it will be good for you to get away. Many times I have wanted to just get in the car and drive to visit my friend in NYC (only an hour away) for the weekend. But never did it...Oh well...It will help you to get some perspective. Is he taking care of the kids while you are away? Then he won't have any "free" time with the girls around, you know what I mean...

As for the weekends in ID, Maybe you could ask him to come w/ you next time. Tell him how much it will mean to you if he comes, that he hasn't visited in so long, etc. Tell him how much you miss him when you go by yourself, that you and he could get some alone time while your parents watch the kids for a night (if that is an option)....tell him how you feel about the separateness of this contributing to the M and lack of communication (or whatever)...Try to approach it from this direction ..(my H and I also had very separate lives as I was trying to be the strong independent wife. ..it backfired on me)...Plant the seed and see what happens...:)

We did have a nice evening, thanks. I brought up MB and the Questionnaires and he agreed that we needed to get back to working on the M, instead of just coexisting day by day. So I think I will try to do that this week. So I am hopeful about that and if I am proactive and get it all together, I think we will get it done...

Have a good day. Would you believe that this weekend the weather was almost 70, daffodills are blooming, and today we woke up to about one inch of snow...Now it is clearing up. This is New England weather for you...

Take care!! (I am on vacation next week (4/10) due to my son's school break. If I have a chance, I will post from the library...so don't think I'm ignoring you if you don't hear from me for a while <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hello MF!

You should take a weekend in NYC! I went there once W---A---Y back in high school and had such a memorable time. You should go to Vegas--probably once would do you just fine. It's kind-of tacky when you get right down to it, but we have a grand time anyway.

My H shouldn't have too much spare time to kill while I'm gone. Between work, tending the girls, and his final school night, he shouldn't have time to get himself into much trouble. But I miss my girls terribly when I'm away--and maybe I'll even miss my H too. We'll have to see about that . . . .

And you'll have a nice break with your kids too, I'm sure. I love vacation days like that. They're the best.

Isn't it such an irony that being the "strong independent wife" seems to cut both ways? I always thought that was one of the qualities my H loved about me. He would come home and tell me about how his friends' wives were so needy and how that would drive him crazy--and how lucky he was.

But now I think that the male ego is much more fragile than I had imagined. I think that, while part of my H enjoyed the independence he had with a wife who was also independent, a larger part of him needs to be NEEDED. And he felt that I didn't NEED him--not financially, not emotionally. That explains some of the appeal of his OW--if there ever was a needy woman, it's her. Her life is a mess--she's almost 30, was only working as a waitress in her father's restaurant, and has 2 kids by 2 different men. And the OW in your situation sounds much the same way. A definate damsel in distress.

But I better get back to things. I must finish some work--and I feel a rotten cold coming on--yuck! I need to kick this thing before my trip next week.

Enjoy your evening and I'll talk to you later!

-C.

Hi csj and mama,
I hope you do not mind me popping in on your conversation. I just skimmed it a bit and wanted to give you two ladies a cyber hug (((((csj&mama))))))). I feel a kindred spirit with you two. Although I believe the EA started during my 3rd pregnancy, the PA part of it began when she was just 8wks old. I am now a mom of 4 young daughters and I had a remorseful husband and we worked our butts off to recover and I just feel so blessed now nearly 3 years later. You ought to be so proud of yourselves and the work you are doing to press on with hopefullness and not allow bitterness or self-righteousness get the better of you and stall or hinder your recovery process. You both sound a lot like me in my recovery. You are both on an excellent path and no doubt you will be successful and rewarded by your efforts.

Incidently, csj, I had always thought we'd have 4 kids, but after the affair I just thought there was no way that made sense. But about 16 months into recovery we talked about it and decided to go for it and we now have our fourth daughter which has blessed and completed us. I consider her our "love child" because our love is so much stronger and deeper than it was before the affair because of the hard work we put into recovery.

Csj I am glad you kept gently pressing the EN questionaire, that was an invaluable tool for us. Neither of us were meeting eachothers EN's in the right way for years. That was such an important insight into my husband and valuable for my part of the recovery process. To not get bogged down by the fact that HE was the problem, but to accept that the marriage itself should be better and I was part of that and had things I needed to work on myself as a wife.

Anyway, just wanted to chime in that I am proud of you ladies. Keep up the good work!
Glad

Gladtopresson,

Welcome ! Thanks for your words of encouragement. I read your post on Recovery and was really struck by it. It inspired me to see that there really is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, if we can just keep going. My H and I also talked about having 4 kids. In the ER for my last baby's delivery, I told him that I couldn't go through it again (more because of physical pain/no meds than emotional). However, after DDay, I don't think that I could put myself in the position of being pregnant again, although if it happened accidentally, I wouldn't do anything to change it. We have talked about a 4th baby after DDay and he said, if it's for us, maybe in a few years. I think that your baby really is a love child in all sense of the word. You must truly have had a beautiful recovery. I did read in your post what a long road it was for you. How long did your H's A last?

My H and I did the EN qt in Jan, and have not yet reviewed them w/ each other. Finally after bringing it up from time to time, I told him last night that we have gotten lazy in our recovery, and we need to do it. We need to get back to MB since we are not in MC. He agreed. So tonight I am getting them out and we are doing them. I have been afraid to push him on it, but he is realizing that it is a two way street. So now that he has agreed to move forward, I will do my part to keep up the pace. I am the one doing all the reading so will be the 'counselor'. We were living separate lives, taking each other for granted and not meeting ENs. I understand why it happened, but it is so hard to get past the hurt and pain, and not feeling special anymore. I do realize that i should have been a better wife,and am trying to right those wrongs every day.

Please pop in again...it really helps me to post and chat w/ people in my situation, and those that have made it through the storm...If you can do it, I feel like I have a chance too. Thanks for sharing...

CSJ,

I have never spent more than 2 nights away from my kids, and that was when I was in the hospital post-partum. I would miss them very much. We have never even taken an overnight trip away from them...I'm sure you will miss your H too. Would love to go to Vegas at least once.

Yes, the whole damsel in distress was my OW too. That's why you can try that soft approach to asking your H to go to ID with you may work, if you tell him how much you need him. I did the same thing. My H would always tell everyone what a great mother I was, and would always make such a big deal over me caring for the kids...And I also never put a leash on him or would complain if he wanted to go out w/out me... I always trusted him, never gave it a second thought.

Try to do the EN qts before your trip--get it out of the way and you will have something to think about while you're gone.

Oh well, it's 5:00 and time for me to go.
Will be here in the afternoon tomorrow.

Have a good night.

Hello everyone-

Yes, Glad, your insights are so inspiring for those of is that want to be where you are! How long was your H's A? Were you able to get to a point where he could talk about it with you?

Good idea on the doing the EN's thing before I go--that will give him some time to think on it, too.

I'm going to head home a little early today--feeling sick. Yuck. I hear the couch and a bottle of Nyquil calling my name.

Talk to you later!

-C.
Talk

C,

Hope you are feeling better. Get well before your trip,okay??

Glad,
I would also like to know if your H was able to truly discuss the A openly and honestly with you?

Have a good day ladies...not much else to say right now...

Whew--a nice long weekend does wonders. Feeling much better today.

We enjoyed a nice weekend with some long-needed sunshine. The kids spent all Saturday outside, and H joined in too, so that was a nice family time for us.

But Sunday I got about as ticked at him as I have been in a while. I rolled up my sleeves to make a nice Sunday dinner--even found a new recipe that I thought he might like (that would even leave enough left-overs for him to eat while I am gone on my Vegas trip). He was headed out to meet his guy-pals and asked when he should plan on dinner--I told him 4 pm.

4 pm rolls around and dinner is ready. The kids and I sit down to eat, figuring that he would be home any minute. The girls eat gobble up their fill, and they are ready to get back to play time. I finish my dinner all by myself, clean up the kitchen, and H comes waltzing in at 5 pm. I bit my tongue right in half not lashing into him, and choked back tears all evening. I felt so unappreciated and cast aside--all the old feelings from his A. Honestly--how could he?

He was all smiles but seemed a bit on edge under the surface--like he knew he might be in trouble. Finally as the night wore on, he talked about how his buddy had been having a really hard time with his teenage son, and he had stayed later than he planned to try and smooth things over. We talked a bit about this on-going problem with his friend and the son, and then as we were going to bed I gave him a kiss and said, "you know, it made me sad that you didn't come home for dinner, but that's nice you could help out your friend." I left it at that--just planting a seed, you know? Be considerate. Be thoughtful.

All on his own, he asked, "why were you sad?" So we talked about that for just a minute. He didn't apologize, but I think my little seed took root.

One small step for womankind.

Talk to you later,
-C.

Hey C,

I'm back at work after being on break/vacation all last week...Bumping this up as your last post was a week ago...sorry I wasn't here to reply, but I think you handled that little situation the right way. And I think your little seed took root too. No LBing, which is good. You told him how his actions made you feel, but that you appreciate him for helping out his friend...I know it took alot of effort, believe me, I have been there. Even last week I was in that same situation. I, however, was not as calm as you, but I did tell him, he could have called. Why didn't he call? He admitted that he should have...sometimes that's all it takes. We are learning how to respond to these things so that they don't become big things...

I hope you enjoyed Vegas...We had a good week. No A or MB talk. I needed to relax. I think we need to step it up though. Will try to do that this week.

Well, I'll be checking for you here...

Hope to talk to you later...

Hey M-

Welcome back from your vacation! I also really enjoyed the break. My gal-pal and I took in "Hairspray" complete with some of the original Broadway cast, and it was so enjoyable. Just one of those really peppy, feel-good shows. I am still humming a little bit to myself. We also saw a terrific collection of Reubens paintings and did some power-shopping. Things I love--and my H does not. But then again, any man who enjoys Broadway, art, and shopping is most likely gay.

I didn't say anything to my friend about the A--which seemed so strange in a way. She has been my closest confidant for 15 years--and now there is this huge part of my life that I just didn't mention. But I knew that she would never understand, having not gone through it herself. And I knew she would loose all respect for my H, and I somehow feel the need to protect him from that. And a part of me is still so ashamed--I don't want to admit what has happened. But why is that? Why do I still feel like this is, in some way, my fault? But, on the other hand, it was so nice not to have to even think about the whole mess for a few days. I almost felt normal again.

We've taken a little break from the MB discussions also--for the Easter weekend. It was a nice few days with the kids and my H's family. Now I need to focus on getting us back on track. I need to follow-up on my first little seed, and then plant another. He's been doing quite well with being the good father--which is one of my EN's. But another big one of mine is affection. When we dated he was so sweet--held my hand all the time, that sort of thing. Marriage brought all of that to a screeching halt. So I think a subtle reminder about showing affection is long overdue.

Plus--he has stalled again in filling out his EN's. I am still guessing at what his needs are, which is really irritating. I just don't get why he is being so stubborn about this.

But another plus from my girl trip is that we got hit on by a few guys (and one of them even seemed sober). It's been so long since anyone tried to pick me up, I was speechless! So there you go--I may be thirty-something. But I've still got it!

Got to go, talk to you later!
-C.

Hey C,

You go girl!! You've still got it. Make sure you tell your H that so he knows what a good woman he has...and yes, I agree with you on the shopping, art and Bway shows...if we want to go shopping, go w/ a friend, not your H. My H absolutely hates to shop. If he needs pants, we go to the store, he buys pants and leaves. There is no "oh let's see what they have in here"...:)

I understand why you didn't tell your friend about the A for all of the reasons you mentioned. I only told my out of state friend after 2 mos of dealing w/ it on my own. She got it out of me after numerous phone calls / emails she made to me and could tell something was wrong. I couldn't bring myself to - where and how to start, you know? She comforted me and stayed with me for a bit, but honestly I got more support on MB because she could not understand truly what I was going through. And after a couple weeks, she went back to her life. She was very supportive, though, and told me that whatever decision I made, to stay w/ him or not, she would stand by both of us (she has known my H for our whole relationship). She told our other close friend who lives in Chicago, because the Chicago friend was coming home to CT for Xmas. We got together one afternoon. It was VERY awkward. We weren't able to really talk because of the kids and relatives, but it was weird. She welcomed my H with open arms and she told me afterwards that he looked so stressed and truly so sorry. She had not seen him since the previous Xmas. She also has been supportive of staying in the M. I think that when you stay w/ your H, you need to protect him/ rebuild that wall that keeps other people out of your M. There was a wall between you during the A. now you need to tear that down and insulate your M from others. I have not told anyone else, and don't plan to.

We have had ups and downs and have to get back on track too. I still need to do the ENs with him. Let's try to get them to do that by the weekend, okay? Are you with me? Let's give them a deadline and see what they do. Affection is one of my ENs, and one that he also said I was not affectionate enough. I am really doing my best to be affectionate to him since DDay, but sometimes it seems like it is always me doing it. He felt rejected by me and then was afraid to approach me, so I guess I have to just keep it up so he won't be afraid to approach me...

Have a good night. Glad to catch up with you!

Okay M, I am with you. EN's by the weekend, no excuses. I brought it up with him, again, last night. I made a point to be light-hearted & joking about it, and he laughed, "I don't know HOW to do those--I don't know what makes me tick." I was happy to hear this answer, because it was what I thought all along, and proves to me that I really do know him pretty well.

Yet it was frustrating too, because I do not understand why he is willing to leave it at that. "I don't understand why this happened. Oh well." I don't know if my H specifically is just not very insightful about his personality, or if it is some WS syndrome--that they just want to move past it and not scratch below the surface if they aren't made to.

I am starting to think it's a WS thing. I think the self-examination is a bit painful, as it forces them to dissect something that they did that is very ugly. I don't think my H ever pictured himself as being capable of an A--and I know I didn't. So I do think I am grasping where he is coming from. But I don't think he has thought much at all about where I am coming from. And this bothers me.

And I am also getting a bit frustrated about the recovery process in general, after reading in that forum some more. So many threads there talk about how nearly impossible it is to get over the hurt. There is happiness, there is rebuilding, but there is always the damage. I wanted so much to get to a place where the A didn't matter any more, and now I wonder if that can ever truly happen. It makes me so . . . tired.

But I guess that disappointment is a part of even the best of marriages. The lesson I am supposed to be learning is to do what I can to make things better.

Back to work--I'll check back with you tomorrow!

-C.

Hi C,

Glad to hear that you are with me on the ENs. I didn't talk to H about it last night, as we had kind of a late night getting home. But will put on agenda for tonight.

My H gives me a lot of reasons why he did it. I don't think he thought he was capable of an A either. I keep reading how the WS changes their value system to justify the A, and I think that is right on the money. I also think that it is a WS thing to want to move on, to not really delve that deeply into what happened. I think they look at it at a very simple level==I made a mistake, I'm sorry, I wish I never did it, If I could change it I would, but I can't...They think, what more can I do? and they don't want to keep going over it again and again. I understand==if it were me, I would be ashamed to think of how I could have done this to my H...I would be so guiltridden and ashamed of myself that I wouldn't want to think about it. I think that's where they are at now...living with themselves is painful, especially when they now see that they had real love with their wives.

I also understand what you are saying about recovery being frustrating. You want to move past it but it is hard. I'm in the same place. Our DDays are only one month apart, and so similar in time...We will get there. This is what gets me through sometimes--When we have some good moments with the kids or each other--you know, it seems almost like old times--laughing or just enjoying each other. No thought of the A in the back of your mind. Even if it's just a few minutes...When this happens, then I know that I can get through it. That one day, maybe in a year, maybe in 6 mos, I will not think about the A every day. We are just too soon into this whole process to forget about it. And, yes, it will always be there...but I have read enough success stories of the people who have better Ms than they dreamed (like the woman that posted to us a few wks ago). This is what keeps me going. I want to be one of the success stories one day. And I don't want to harbor this resentment for years and years....

Keep working on yourself...I'm trying every day...I try to keep my perspective and treat him like I want to be treated, so that he will meet my ENs too....It will take time but we'll get there....

Hope you had a good night....talk to you later!

Hey MF-

I think the changed value system hits the nail on the head. I have thought that very thing several times--how else could he possibly have done it at all, much less done it for a year? And I'm sure it would be torture to live with that.

I really do try to look at the whole situation through his eyes--I don't want to fight about it and manipulate him with guilt. I know he is very sorry. I understand that discussing it twists the knife for him. But I think it is a little selfish of him to not try and look at things through my eyes, too. I have told him that my questions about his EN's are not attempts to hurt him--they are my attempt to understand and practice a bit of prevention for the future. It only seems logical that he would at least be a willing participant in this process. I shouldn't have to drag him. But I am anyway.

But I was trying to be a little more circumspect last night. I think there is a tough dose of reality to swallow in recovery--I need to accept that it likely will never be the same. I keep thinking that at some future point my H and I can walk away from this as if it never happened. But I can't erase it--I will always remember it--and that will always be painful. But there is forgiveness. And a year from now (or two . . . ) forgiveness will soften things. I read somewhere here that it's like the scar on a huge California Redwood tree. The evidence of the hurt will always be there, but the tree kept growing, and it is healthy. It is different than it was, but still beautiful.

I hope that it can be that way for both of us.

Have a good night--I will look forward to chatting tomorrow.

-C.

Hi C,

I agree with you--I will never forget it, but I hope that I can one day forgive. I'm not pushing myself to forgive right now. I think that I will be able to do it in the future, and that is a start. A few months ago, I wouldn't have been able to say that.

I also try to see it through his eyes. I think that when it started, it was exciting and new, but then he got trapped. I think he could not figure out how to get out of it easily. He told me that while he was in the A, he was more depressed, angry (at himself), guilty, and scared and ashamed. Always afraid I would find out. Afraid that the OW would tell me if he tried to break it off (he did try to back away several times. He admits he didn't do a good job of it because he was still having sex with her...Duh! Anyway, I think that he got trapped in a situation that he didn't know how to get out of. He never meant for me to find out any of it, so to carry that burden for so long was a heavy weight. I think that they have to justify it in their minds and change their value system in order to be able to live with themselves.

Last night, we were talking about one of my coworkers who is nice to me to my face, but talks about me behind my back (other coworkers have told me of the comments she made when I was late to work)...anyway, I am basically a nice person and do not like confrontation, so I chose to ignore it and make sure I'm on time so she has nothing to say. Anyway, my H said something mean about her, and our Son said, why did you say that? So H said, Your mommy is the nicest person that you will ever meet in the whole world. She is not just nice to us, she is nice to everybody. And this woman says mean things about Mommy sometimes, and that makes me mad"...
It really touched me because I was thinking about what we had talked about (changed value system, guilt, etc)...I thought, boy if this is what he thinks of me, he must feel so bad about how it could have done this to me...

The funny thing is that a couple months after DDay, I told him about the comments she made, and he got so mad that she would talk about me like that...That I was so nice and how could she treat me like this. At that time, all I could think of was, how could YOU treat me the way YOU did...I really think they can't handle going back and thinking about how they could have done it. I know that in my situation, my H hates OW now, and can't believe he was so stupid to get involved with her, for many reasons. She was not even a nice or responsible person, but I guess that was the attraction--escape from reality. In my case, he felt rejected by me, that I wasn't interested in him sexually anymore...so this was his justification for what he did. This was how he made himself believe that I just didn't care, didn't love him anymore. And I'm sure that the OW just played right into that. He said that she wrote him love letters and wanted him all to herself, so would give him tons of attention, etc.

As for the ENs, I haven't brought it up yet. I will tonight, as we have no plans after work so should have time. I have told him that my ENs were not being met while he was having his A, so I want us to do the Qtns for BOTH of us. I'm sure your H wants your M to be better, for something good to come out of this mess. If he does, then he should do this for YOU, as much as for him...to see what he can do to help you, and it is not talking about the A. Tell him that you need to do this to move forward (you may have told him this already)...

good luck and I'll talk to you tomorrow!!

Hi CSJ,

I hope you don't mind me joining in on yours and MamaFish's posts. I've been posting to MamaFish and Hoping For on another thread "Trust Issues" for quite a while. I feel I made good friends talking to them and I always feel good after venting.

We can all help each other out:

We're all the same - have been hurt beyond explanation. Thank goodness for this site….I needed to talk so many times and I had no one to talk to…..except for here.

Take care ...talk to you soon.

Hey girls
I just posted on "trust issues" too but I wanted to ask you all a question because it seems most of us have Hs who HATE the OW. Mine in particular was tormented by the fact that she lied to him telling him he was her 1st affair and he was the only one to make her feel that way blahblah blah. Bleck! Anyway he felt like she led him to put his marriage in jeapordy because of he lies says he never would have gotten involved with her had he known what type of person she was. Of course most respectable people sleep with married men with 4 kids 2 of which were 2 months old but whatever...not the brightest bulb. Because of this he grew guilty and remorseful and basically his entire personality changed.

Finally my question is how do you think they would feel if the OW ended up being a nice person. My OW is so not but Angelina Jolie is saving babies everytime you turn around she cant be all bad ya know? I wonder had he never felt she duped him would he have been ok with what he did? Would he EVER have confessed or would he been able to live with it. Maybe it would have been just a non event not worthy of even talking about since it had been gone so long? I wonder how many WS live with this secret forever. Just some thoughts.

Talk to you soon.
HF

Hi Hoping,

I just posted to you on "Trust Issues". Feel better!!!

Well, this was my husband's 1st affair - I'm almost certain of that. He fell for the OW because they worked together and they would talk.

My husband completely trusted the OW - he believed everything she said - thought I was against him - she totally convinced him of that. She would always be there for him - would never do anything to hurt him – would do anything in her power - would never argue with him, blah, blah, blah. Your wife doesn’t treat you like a man – you deserve to be treated better. When he came home – it was as if I was living with a stranger – he was mean, angry, uncaring, and disrespectful – for many months. He didn't know how to end it - he felt guilty and couldn't tell the OW he didn't love her and wanted to end it - so he just didn't do it.

Then when the affair ended - her true colors came out.

I often wonder if I wouldn't have broken up the affair - when would he have stopped it? How far would it have gone. If he got up enough nerve and did end it, would he tell me - probably not. What if the old bag got pregnant? He felt so guilty he would have kept up the affair till she would be harassing me - you know, calling at home, following him, making demands.

And yes, Hoping, what if she was attractive and a nice person - would that be the end of us? Well, lucky for me I guess that wasn't the case and my husband learned his lesson. You'll drive yourself crazy thinking all these thoughts. I always have a million things running thru my mind - I just keep them to myself or tell you guys.

Wow! CSJ, you have alot to read!! I hope you don't mind that I invited these ladies over here...I figure, the more the merrier. We can all learn from each other and support each other.

In answer to Hopingfor's question about what if the OW turned out to be a nice person, I have a couple comments:

In my sitch, the FOW flirted with my H for months prior to the actual PA. The first time he met her in the employee parking lot, she looked him up and down and said something like, boy would I like to have sex with you... Somehow, this is not the girl you bring home to meet your mother, if you know what I mean...Of course, he ate all of this up. It was after he got to know her, that he saw that the only redeeming quality she had was sex. He didn't talk to / with her as F&L's H did. He really had nothing else in common with her.

But anyway, I think that we are "lucky" that our Hs came out of the fog in time to see the FOWs for what they acually were. If the FOW turns out to be a nice person, this is when the FWS doesn't want to break up the A and won't commit to NC. Of course, this is not always the case. But I think that my H had no intention of me ever finding out about it. I can't torture myself and think "what if"...what if she got pregnant? What if he left us for her? You will drive yourself crazy if you do this. You have to just accept that he is committed to your M now and start to rebuild your trust and marriage....

Hope that helps, for what it's worth!
See you back here tomorrow ladies..

MF,

I don't dwell on this too much anymore either. It will drive you crazy. The only reason I mentioned the pregnant thing was because - after my husband's affair ended she was huffing and puffing around the office. I got scared thinking she was going to try and say she was pregnant and then say she had a miscarriage - just to get him back. I've heard of this done many times. She complains she doesn't have any money, but wants more kids?????

Yeah, she saw dollar signs when she met my husband. A house, good job and young handsome guy to come home to her every night. Wanted what I had and have now.

My husband really didn't have anything in common with the OW either, except they worked together. But she is all the things he hates in woman - drinks, smokes, curses, and no class. But, when the OW listen - they respond and enjoy every minute of it. Fall for it "hook, line and sinker"!

Hello ladies--and welcome! I am so grateful for this place--I feel like it has really given me a place to come and heal a bit. A place to discuss the things that I can't really bring up with my H.

The OW in my situation also proved to be a real doozy. I know that I have villified her to a certain degree--she is the figure I use to direct most of my anger. I told my H a few months ago that I wanted her to die--not through anything illegal of course--I actually am picturing her stepping in front of a bus or something like that. I also recall mentioning something about her burning in he//. . . . My H was in shocked silence, listening to me talk about how much I hate her. I think the whole conversation gave him a pretty good idea how angry I really was.

I know that in time, he will come to truly dislike her. But I don't think he's there yet. She was contacting friends of mine and having them give me messages--"warning" me that my H was still involved with her, etc. I told my H and he was furious. He actually contacted her (breaking the NC rule) to tell her never to contact me in any way. She gave him this song and dance about how the messages hadn't really come from her, and that someone else must be making up these stories. MY H BELIEVED HER!!!!! He told me "I really don't think she's the kind of person who would do that . . ." This despite that fact that the messages stopped right after he called her and told her to stop. I think my H's doesn't want to see her as the little tart that she is, because he doesn't want to think he is that stupid.

Speaking of stupid--I was thinking of how foolish the whole A was last night. My H and I went to his graduation banquet as he is finishing up his MPA degree. He has been attending a private church-owned school--and would have been kicked out had the administration been told about the A (which the OW actually tried to accomplish). I have been looking at the A as this completely selfish thing. But last night, I was thinking that selfish doesn't quite capture it. This degree has been a goal for my H for years--since before I even met him. His A took priority even over this personal goal that he has placed so much focus on--not to mention $20,000, time, energy, etc. So it's not as if me and the kids were the only ones he was setting aside. He was setting aside himself, too. And all for what? Because she stroked his ego, made him feel important, and that was more important than anything else--at least for a moment.

But I was also thinking how lucky we are--my H and I. Despite everything that has happened, there he was, with his classmates, celebrating that he had finished something so special. And, as it so happened, the banquet was held in the same building--even the same room--where we had held our wedding brunch. Almost 9 years later, there we were in the same place. A little bumped, a little bruised, but still together. Not a traditional, romantic story perhaps. But I love him still.

Talk to you all tomorrow!

-C.

Hello to All,

The important thing is that we are all here for each other, to do exactly what you have all written--vent a bit to each other when we can't vent to our Hs.

CSJ,

My H has lost alot because of his A, and not just how it affected me and the kids. Like your H, he risked EVERYTHING for the A...He had to resign his job, lost respect of coworkers and everyone where he worked (due to her gossiping about him). He has had to start over in that respect. We started to attend church in Dec. and he has started to attend a Men's Group there. He admitted to the Men's Group about his A (a few wks ago) and that we were in recovery. I was shocked when he did this, that he would make it public, but it also showed me that he is serious in his commitment to our M. I had asked him if he would go to MC with the pastor before he did this, and he had said no he didn't want to do that.

Anyway, like CSJ said, the A took precedence over everything in his life, including his job/career. I found out after that he and she would call out of work at the last minute, which cost them points on their attendance. This happened a few times. He was late to work on many occasions. They would talk on their cell phones all night long, risking a warning from their employer for not working. I think that the WS truly gets in the fog and cannot see what they have become. There is no other way to explain why a supposedly rational person would act this way.
This is why they have such a hard time dealing with it when the wives find out and they actually SEE the devastation they had caused, when they had convinced themselves that no one would be hurt, that it didn't mean anything.

CSJ, I'm glad for you and your H--I like that the celebration for the graduation was in the same place, like you have come full circle almost. You are still together after all this time, your love for each other has risen above it all.

Well, I have to get to work now. I didn't talk to H about ENs but will really try to get this done this weekend. I am trying to deal w/ some other issues right now but have to get this done.

Have a good weekend!

Everyone,


I guess this will be it for the nice weather - tomorrow is supposed to rain all day. I'm going to grab a bite to eat and I'm off. Talk to you guys later.

Hi F&L,

I'm sorry to hear about your interview, or lack of interview...that really stinks...I have to laugh because I can see that happening where I work. Our HR manager does what she pleases. we are supposed to put any appts/vacation time/etc in our company electronic calendar (Outlook) so people know when you are out. This is the HR policy, but of all the people in the company, she is the only one who does not do this. She will take a week off and not send a notice, you have to ask someone else to find out...So I could see her doing the same thing that was done to you...

Yes, it's supposed to rain here tomorrow also. I'm hoping it will hold off until after 5. My DS has his first soccer and tee ball practices starting at 3. they are back to back. This is the first time we are doing this, and looking at the schedules, I see where the term Soccer Mom comes from!!

I hope you have a nice visit with your Dad....and a good weekend!

Hi Ladies,

I was thinking about you guys.

Last year around this time, the weather was nice, flowers were popping up and we, as a family, were going to church every Sunday – it felt good. We all decided we should go regularly. I felt proud seeing my husband and two beautiful girls next to me sitting in the pews. Little did I know that in 3 months my world would come crashing down right in front of me.

I saw my life flash in front of me – it was over – everything I hoped for – everything I dreamed of – finished – a happy home – my children without a father – me being alone - in a couple of minutes. The love of my life snatched away. The next day I had my first axiety attack - I thought I was having a heart attack - I thought oh no, now I'm going to die on top of all this...please I don't want to die! I collapsed - my fingers and legs went numb - I couldn't breath - what was happening to me. Please, Please, no more!!!!Went to hospital - luckily, only an anxiety attack - several more to come.

Believe it or not, this is what I think of when I go to church – you don’t know how many times this enters my head – I know it shouldn’t – but it does.

I just don’t know what our husbands were thinking of when they had their flings. We worked so hard to get were we are now. I supported my husband in the beginning, just so he can go back to school and get his degree. I always believed in him, knew he would achieve his goals. Once he started getting ahead in his career - I always stood in the background – let his job come first. I always had to have the job that was flexible - so I can come home in case of an emergency/snow days, etc., for the kids. For you see, his jobs were always too important for him to leave. Thank goodness my employer was understanding of family matters. My husband kept advancing and I was happy for him.


You know, my husband is a well educated man, but like I always said, he has no common sense!

Well, that's enought venting for today.

So, girls, I had a lot of obsticles and once my husband left that stupid job/bimbo OW - we are doing ok. So, you all can too. Just have faith and be determined. Sometimes, in the beginning, you have to have enough love for the both of you. My husband may be stubborn and have no common sense, but I accept him the way he is - will always love him.

Hoping:You've got to try and forgive.....put things behind you. Your never going to forget....but keep them in the back of your mind. Listen, my husband still worked with the OW for 10 months and I survived .....you can too. Be happy!

Have a nice weekend ...all of you.

Hello everyone!

F&L-so sorry to hear about your dad's illness, and then your daughter. That is such a nightmare! I cannot even imagine what you must have been through. I truly hope that she is doing okay, and not blaming herself--especially after your H said those thoughtless things to her.

I have actually dealt with many sexual abuse cases as they went through the legal system. At time time, I was a Public Defender and was actually representing the perpetrator. SO HARD TO DO! But the whole experience I think is actually doing me some good now. I read some pretty terrible police reports--accusations of unspeakable things. And then I would go to court and have to talk to the people that did them. At first, I didn't think I could do it. But I found that, if I looked in their eyes (and sometimes said a little prayer), I could really see the humanity in just about anyone. In the seven years I worked as a defense attorney, I think I really learned to understand that there are good people that do terrible things. I learned to treat them with kindness, and to look past their actions, so that I could defend them.

Of course, it is much easier to do in the abstract. From a victim point of view, which is where I stand now, it is a much heavier burden. But I think the experiences I had with my previous job really helped me to look at my H, and still see the the good man that I know him to be. I will never really understand why this has happened, and I am resigned to the fact that I will always hurt from it. But I believe that I can forgive him. And I am starting to feel real love be restored.

Ultimately, I did quite my defense job, and I actually prosecute now. But only misdemeanor cases. I just couldn't handle the felony stuff anymore. Too emotional. Especially after I had my kids--it was just too personal for me. And I love prosecuting misdemeanors--give me 1000 dope tickets over a single sex offense any day!

But I hope you all have a good weekend, and I aim to as well. I am going to carve out some time--hopefully tonight--to have a good EN discussion with my H. But first, to the hospital because I just got the word my sister is having her first baby today!

My thoughts are with you all--thanks for the friendship!

-C.

CSJ,

Just a quick note for tonight. Advance congrats on the baby!
I told MamaFish and Hoping For that I could write a book on my life or make a tear jerker movie about my life. I’m a very determined person - I'm a tough little cookie - been broken several times though. I gave MamaFish and Hoping For a lot of hope.

Yes, all our guys are good, just were led astray - but then everyone is entitled to mistakes - that's what makes us human. My husband is working late again, but this time, I know he is really working! Thank Goodness.

Hi Everyone,

Boy, I'm almost couldn't find our thread! We all must be healing - not on the site day and night. That's a good sign.

The weekend was so rainy here. Just stayed indoors and rented videos. North Country excellent - it's about how badly women are treated in a man's company/world - a must see.My husband had some Corona beer and I had some wine - we both cuddled on the couch - good stuff!

MamaFish, guess your son didn't play soccer. He would have needed boots instead of cleets. My daughter has a softball game tomorrow - supposed to rain again???

I already got done cleaning the house and putting away the Easter stuff.

Got to go - got to turn off the computer - thunder and lightening here - this one was so big it shook the house.

Hope all is well with you ladies. Talk to you later.

Hello everyone--

I hope all had a nice weekend. It was such lovely weather, and the girls enjoyed a lot of outside time. My sister's little boy (7 lbs 6 oz) is simply adorable, so that was fun to see him. We also had all the relatives over to celebrate my youngest's 2nd b-day yesterday afternoon. She had such a wonderful time with her first present we had a hard time convincing her to open anything else. She is just the sweetest, most beautiful toddler, but it makes me sad that I don't have a baby anymore--she is growing up so quickly!

F&L--I am glad your daughter is going to focus her education on the criminal mind--if she figures it out, let me know! I saw such an awful cycle with abuse cases like that, most specifically with males. Almost all of the male offenders had been victims when they were kids. It just seems so illogical that a victim would turn into a perpetrator that way. But it seems like most of the defendants I represented had not reported their own abuse cases, and I wonder if that's what ultimately caused the problem. They grew up not really understanding that what happened to them was wrong, and that it wasn't their fault, and maybe they could never come to terms with it. Anyway, that could be a very rewarding profession for her--I hope that she is doing alright.

MF-you will be proud of me! I cornered my H last night about his EN's, and was finally able to get some answers out of him. He still hadn't written a thing on the questionairre, so I brought it to bed with me and just started asking him about the different needs, and what was important to him. He didn't rank them, but said that SF, an attractive spouse, honesty & openness, and domestic support were all things he felt to be important. I was a bit surprised that he didn't have admiration in there somewhere--because he really does soooo enjoy it when other women flirt with him, and he will often come home and tell me about it, just as pleased as he can possibly be. He never did mention to me when the OW started making her passes at him. He obviously sensed that I wouldn't find it amusing at all, and he didn't want me to tell him to stop. What was it about her flirtations that were so irresistable to him? I still can't figure out how it is that he got so far down the slippery slope.

I had a million comments running around in my head after he finally listed his EN's--but all of them were rather mean, so I figured I better keep quiet. I don't want to discourage him from talking to me about the affair by lashing out at him. But I was rather crushed, because in knowing what needs are important to him, I cannot help feeling a little like chopped liver. OW was filling his EN's for someone who was attractive and good in bed. While I was filling his needs for an honest spouse who cleaned his toilets. Was I ever attractive to him? Has he ever been fulfilled by me? I don't know and didn't know how to ask. OW looks nothing like me. As I've mentioned before (I think on this thread), she has ENORMOUS implants, to the point of actually looking a little ridiculous (in my opinion, anyway). I am a pretty petite person all-around, and just not a full-figured gal. I just feel so terribly inadequate--like he will never be pleased with me. And this is such a vicious cycle. My H tried a couple times to initiate SF and in my head, all I could think was "DON'T YOU TOUCH ME!" I didn't say anything--but he did get the idea and just went to sleep. Obviously I am not fulfilling him to not respond to him at all, but I am still hurting so much to think that he has rejected me physically.

I hate feeling this way.

But I know he is still trying. He devoted his whole Saturday to fixing up the playhouse for the girls, and told me about some other plans he has to spruce up the yard. And he was very sweet with the b-day party, complimenting me about all the work in making dinner for everyone, and making a cute "Elmo" cake for the party. It felt nice to be appreciated, anyway.

I hope you all have a good afternoon, and I'll check back later!

-C.

Post deleted by MAMAFISH

Post deleted by MAMAFISH

Friends,

CSJ, you've dealt with the criminal mind, I know you've dealt with this before. Do women self-consciously seek out the same type of man that hurt them before - without realizing it? I never liked getting abused, whether it was physically or mentally, but yet, I set myself up for it. I keep thinking I can change them.

CSJ; Don't worry about the OW having big boobs. I'm petite like you, been the same since high school about 110 lbs. I'm a 34 C, attractive, very perky boobs, no wrinkles, look ten yrs. younger than I am. My husband's OW is younger than me, but looks 10 yrs older than me, wrinkles, andis down right ugly. So don't worry about boobs, or looks, doesn't make a difference.Believe me, looks, age, don’t matter, that's not what these guys are after. I have always had the dinner waiting for my husband when he gets home, I am the Lucy Ricardo, try to look good for him – but when they want to stray it just doesn’t matter what you look like, or what the OW looks like – they’ll do it.

I always considered myself to have a lot of common sense - but does that all disappear when you love someone?

MAMAFISH...The OW did the same thing to my hubby. When he ended the affair - she tried doing the same thing to get even. At first she tried to be nice to him – do the same things she used to – bring coffee in the morning, talk nice to him, etc.. But, my husband said, no contact other than business. She got angrier and angrier.

One thing you should understand even if the OW brings a civil suit against you, it is very hard to prove rape. The OW will be dragged thru the mud – she will not want that. She will look like the biggest tramp in your town.

Another word: A lot of woman claim pregnancy – this is the first act to draw the man back. Then the claim is that they either lost the baby due to miscarriage or they had an abortion. The next step if my husband wouldn’t have ended it would have been a pregnancy. That’s the ultimate guilt trap. Did your husband ever receive positive proof that she was pregnant?

When my husband got himself into all this mess, the fist thing he said was. “are you going to stand behind me – we have to stand together”. Then he needed me – can you believe that!

We’ll all get thru this!

MF-
I am so sorry you and your H have been through all of this! It must be very much like a nightmare. I represented many guys on rape cases that sounded quite similar. I was convinced that they were innocent (we used to call them cases of "buyers remorse" at my old office), and often wondered how the accused men coped with the stress of being charged with something like that.

My primary concern in these types of cases was how well it would play to a jury. The accusation itself can be so inflamatory, I was always worried a jury would just listen to the crying rape victim on the stand and want to convict.

But I think your H has many things going for him. First, the OW is not cooperating. There's nothing like an uncooperative victim to make a prosecutor want to dump a case. Second, your H's assault history sounds quite minor, and will probably not be admissible. (This will depend on the Rules of Evidence in CT--but I think those are relatively standard in many states. Typically, prior offenses aren't admissible, unless your H did something stupid like take the stand and claim that he had never been charged with a crime before. Then it could be used as evidence of his crediblity.) Third, much of the evidence you describe doesn't sound terribly consistent with a claim of rape. I would be interested to know what the results of her Code-R exam were. I am betting there is nothing there that is going to be very helpful to the prosecution. And the whole idea that a person could be forcibly raped and then just lie there and make no effort to escape while the rapist is asleep, just waiting to be raped again. That just doesn't ring true. And I think a jury packed with women would be very skeptical of a claim like that. I think most women imagine that they would try and get away if something like that happened to them.

Also, she has the potential to be a very poor witness. She has plenty of motivations to fabricate her story (jilted and vengeful female). That will play out poorly for her. I wonder what her history is--whether she has accused prior boyfriends of similar things. Particularly if her prior relationships were workplace affairs also. That is potentially admissible. There are lots of other behavioral things you can bring in also--her actions immediately following the alleged incident--did she act like someone who had been raped? Did she go in for counseling? That type of thing. It sounds like she started seeing another guy at the office right afterwards, so that doesn't necessarily sound like a rape victim to me.

If there is a minor assault charge that's also been filed, the believability of that allegation is going to be affected by whether or not the OW is thought to be credible on the rape allegation. Was there any physical evidence on that--bruising or anything? On a minor thing like that, there wouldn't necessarily be. If there is, that would hurt your H's case a bit because then at least a part of her story will sound like it's true. The conventional wisdom in a scenerio like that is that if there is a fight between a couple, it is the man's fault. And the jury might question why, if they had just had a big, physical altercation, why would they both want to jump in bed and have sex? The ATM card could hurt your H a bit also--although he has given a innocent-enough explanation for that.

I think, from what you've told me, your H's case sounds very defensible. My old office had a bit of a budget for an investigator, which was very helpful in cases like these. I found that women like this OW frequently talk a lot and can really dig a hole for themselves. If a statement she made which contradicted her rape story surfaced, that could be a real silver bullet. I'd bet that someone at your H's old office had heard her talk plenty. And ANYTHING contradictory--even if it's her describing the rape in a way that sounds different from the version that she gave the police--could be very helpful in making her sound like she couldn't get her story straight. "Victims" who make up stories typically have a difficult time with that.

How do you feel about your attorney? Do you have any hearings coming up right away? There is a lot of potential there, but it has got to be very stressful for both of you while everything shakes out. If it's helpful just know that most of the rape cases I had like this were dismissed without even going to trial, because the prosecution saw that things weren't coming together. It just was a waiting game to get to that point.

Let me know how things go . . .

-C.

MamaFish,

How'e everyone doing?

Okay--it took me a while to write that last post, and so now I've missed a few of yours!

I agree with you on the OW's abuse of the system. That bothered me also, whenever I saw a "revenge rape" case filed. It diminishes the true victims. Sadly, crying rape (or other types of sex abuse) seems to me to be a rather common way for women to manipulate. "Do what I want or I'll call the police and tell them that you groped me." There is a special kind of karma reserved for people who falsely accuse, in my opinion.

And it does make my heart break for your daughter, F&L. What she has lived through! And to be too afraid to come forward . . . . I can honestly say that I never went after a victim that I THOUGHT was telling the truth, but how can I know for sure? It nagged at me always when I cross-examined victims--hoping that I wasn't contributing to their hurt. I really believe in the criminal justice system, and I am firmly convinced that we need vigorous defense attorneys to keep the system in balance, and to protect the rights of all accused, whether they are guilty or innocent. But it was a tough job, to be sure. Victims in sex cases can get drug through the mud. That helps your husband, MF, because as the trial date approaches, the reality of the situation will hit home to the OW. The prosecutor can protect the victim to a certain extent--but never totally.

So if nothing else, the system does work to weed out the cases without merit. But it is at a high cost to true victims.

And I do see history repeat itself so frequently, F&L. Particularly now doing prosecution. I handle MANY domestic violence cases, as they are typically misdemeanor offenses. And it puzzles me somewhat, because you see the same women (as victims) over and over, either with the same husband or a different one. I cannot explain it--maybe if your daughter becomes a psychologist, she can enlighten us all! But my current theory is that it has much to do with self esteem. Frequently (not always) abused women saw this pattern in their own families (this does not sound like its true in your case, however--it sounds like your dad is a winner). These girls grow up thinking that it is normal to be abused and demeaned. And then they are told my their abusive partners that they are worthless, and they come to believe it, I suppose.

Watching the dynamics in relationships like those does make me feel grateful, despite my present situation. I have always thought that I deserved the very best--and until all of this thought that I had it. My H is basically a "tough guy" and isn't one to toss out compliments, but I felt loved. I felt attractive. I felt appreciated. So comparing myself to the OW feels like the twilight zone. My H has never made me feel this way before.

During the A, when he seemed so indifferent to me, I was wracking my brain trying to think what I could do to make him snap out of his depressed, morose mood. I brought up to him that I wanted a boob job. I have always been a bit self-conscious about being small--I am, sadly, an A, and always wanted to be at least average! And I thought he might enjoy the idea, too. He did perk up a bit, and said, "why don't you find out who OW's doctor was so you could get some like hers?" I thought the remark a bit thoughtless at the time--why would he bring up her specificially? But now it just haunts me. He was telling me that he wanted me to look like her--this woman that nearly destroyed my family. And now I feel like I can never have the cute, average boobs I hoped for, because how can I ever have surgery to make myself over to look like her?

I was trying to put all of this out of my mind, but when we talked about our EN's last night, it all rushed back. I must have had a strange look on my face, because he said, "What are you looking at?" "Oh nothing--just thinking." And then I shut up.

But going over the EN's needed to happen. So I guess it is a good thing, even though it hurts at the time.

So onward and upward! But now I've got to get back to work!

-C.

CSJ, MF,

I’m going to tell you again, don’t worry about the size of your boobs. That’s not why your husband went with the OW. My husband is the biggest boob man and he picked a woman with no boobs – she’s flat and saggy. I don’t know how you can be both –but she is. So if a woman has big boobs and is just plain stupid and is not a nice person – how long do you think a guy will be with her? You can’t live on boobs alone!

What a nerve your husband telling you to got to the OW’s doctor to have this done. If you want to have your breasts enlarged –do it for yourself – not for your husband. I’ve known people that had this done and some have complications – it’s painful and not a permanent thing – they will eventually have to be replaced.

MamaFish: Rape is a hard thing to prove. Even when there actually is a rape – it’s hard to prove. I don’t know if I told you this story:

A lot of OW threaten retaliation, sexual harassment, rape; threaten pregnancy, everything they can throw at you. But, everything has to be proven. If the OW has a reputation – they’ll make her seem like she’s the biggest tramp in New England. If she admits to the affair – she’ll look like she’s in the wrong. Like, CSJ said, if you get raped, don’t you try to get away, don’t you tell someone? Where’s the evidence of the rape. Did she go to the hospital to get a rape case? Where there pictures of it taken?

What information do you have on her – her past – the present? Is your lawyer finding out for you – if not you should do this. Go on the internet and find out everything you can about her. Do it yourself – don’t rely on other people. You can find out address, criminal records, marriage records, home ownership, anything you want and it’s legal.

The OW may think it’s easy to press charges – but to make them stick is another thing. You’ve got to be one step ahead of her.

Well, I’ve got to go. Good night all.

Post deleted by MAMAFISH

MF,

I'm not a lawyer - so I can only speak from experience. Like I said before, rape is very hard to prove. The court system always makes the victim look like a piece of trash. they dig into her past relationships -her reputation. Unless, she has good proof that she was raped, i.e., bruises, witnesses, hospital abuse/rape reports, etc. - it's very hard for her to prove her case.

If you go to court and you admit that you knew of the affair and were making your marriage work -that's good for him - because it makes the OW seem like she is seeking revenge. Pregnancy issues really don't matter in my opinion - this happens - she chose to abort the pregnancy - no child involved - it was her chose.

So far as the newspapers - you can't do anything about that - they get their information somehow. As I told you my daughter's information was front page in our local paper - thank goodness her name wasn't mentioned - but everyone kind of figured out who it was. This can't be avoided.

Again, I am going to stress, do your detective work - don't rely on your attorney, or others. Get letters from co-workers, employer and people in the community indicating your husband's morals, standing in the community, values, etc. - this is important. Also, if you need to, go around and get people/co-workers to write a written witness report on what they saw and feel - her reputation - they do not have to appear in court. I know you can do this because I had to do it when I divorced my 1st husband - the witnesses testified that I had bumps and bruises -they didn't have to appear in court. Please help yourself out - don't be afraid to do detective work. Even if you have to do some things that are unconventional – do what you have to – it’s your life and your family. Find out things about her that can help your case – it can be done!

So far as making up after an argument or a misunderstanding - this is normal. When my husband and I have a fight -the makeup is usually very intense - not normal SF. I'm a petite person and sometimes when we have a very tense SF - I tend to bleed. Not because I was abused, but because of the pressure, the force. I have had this happen to me many times in my life - keep this in the back of your head - this is normal. When you have an argument, the normal thing is to makeup and in adults it's to have sex - plain and simple. Whether you’re married, single, or having an affair - it's the same.

You don't know how many times, after I found out about my husband's affair - after arguing and being hurt - the only way my husband knew for me to forget about everything was to take me and force me to make love to him - I didn't want to do it because I was so hurt - but I needed him - so I did anyway. Was this rape - of course not - I let him and deep inside I really wanted to. When you are upset there is nothing closer and more intimate than making love. THINK.........

Female judge mean nothing! The facts mean everything. People have affairs every day - this means nothing. Black and white - means nothing – what’s that got to do with anything. Judges see retaliation every day. It’s very hard to prove rape after you had an affair with someone – especially if you have a bad reputation – repeated offender of going out with men that you work with. Only thing is make sure your husband is telling you the truth - this is so important - you can't be surprised. When going to court - stand by his side - this is important - will make her look less credible. Your husband will need your support - he knows this - he will open up to you - my husband did this also. When the chips are down they come back to the person they know they can trust - YOU!

You’ll be ok.

MF--

It sounds like you are in good hands with your H's current attorney, and that can give you and your H at least some comfort. The director of my PD office was the same way. He was the best and is the first person I would want to help me if I was ever in trouble. Some PD offices get a bad reputation because they are terribly underfunded and the attorneys have more work then they could possibly manage. Plus, they don't pay enough to draw good attorneys. They are set up to perform malpractice on a daily basis. But some jurisdictions take a different approach and give PD offices the money they need, and it sounds like yours is one. They see a good PD office as an investment to avoid costly appeals. If your H's PD has been there 20 years and has a good reputation, then that speaks volumes. That situation can actually give your H an advantage over those who are spending top dollar on private attorneys, because the PD has spent 20 years developing a relationship with the prosecutors, where as private attorneys handle a variety of cases in many different courts, so they just don't develop the same history with the prosecutors. For an example, my old boss could get better treatment from prosecutors than any private attorney, because they knew him and trusted him. So that can really work for you.

I am curious about the blood evidence you mentioned. Where was it found? If it is just blood from the argument in the car, then that would not be nearly as serious, because you can explain that. If it is blood in her underwear, that could be trickier, because that is physical evidence that can be used to support her story.

But the bottom line is, this is a date rape story, and those are notoriously hard to prove. There is absolutely going to be physical evidence of sex--since both parties admit to the sex. It all boils down to the consent issue, and how do you really prove that? It's really tough. Some cases like these will have physical evidence of forced sex, but not very many. Since the OW was obviously sexually active before, the Code R exam can only look for tearing, but this is not always there, even with a genuine rape. Plus, consensual sex can have some tearing, depending on the circumstances.

And I wouldn't worry about the size and race issues much, either. The OW admits to an ongoing, consensual relationship with your H that was sexual. The fact that he can overwhelm her physically could have impact if this was a claim of a forcible rape, where the victim tried to fight off her attacker but couldn't. But the prosecutor doesn't have that here. And the race thing, again, didn't mean anything to OW before, so why should it now? I don't know the racial climate in your area, but with the facts of this case, I think that the black/white issue would only be a big deal in the South where there are still a lot of racial attitudes. In the NE, I am thinking he really should be alright.

And with the sex after the fight, I understand what what you mean. I think a lot of men really could see that as "make-up sex" even though the idea of sex after getting hit makes no sense. But men on the jury (if it ever goes that far) would get that.

As for your H's history, obviously your attorney will know the specific rules in your jurisdiction. But in Utah, that does not necessarily come in. If the prior was a felony, there is a greater chance that it will, but prior misdemeanors are very difficult to admit as evidence. There are lots of ins-and-outs, depending on specifically what type of charge it was, and how long ago, etc. Your H's attorney will know for sure. And the fact the he was cheating on you won't be received well at a trial, but the same goes for the OW. She will be viewed as a homewrecker, pure and simple. So that cuts both ways.

I would say, first of all, any digging on the OW you can do to help out the PD would be helpful. I had clients give me a lot of good stuff, and it helped because the investigator budget was not without limits. Don't have your H do this, though. He needs to just keep a very low profile so that nothing he says or does can ever come back to haunt him.

Also, keep your spirits up! Easier said than done, I know. But truthfully, I doubt very much that this case would ever really go to trial. 99% of cases don't. And this case has lots of strikes against it. Honestly--the fact she just laid there while your H slept makes no sense. Especially since they had a prior relationship--how scared can she really be of him? A normal woman who gets beat up and raped by her boyfriend would have scooted out and called the cops--no question.

And, of course, just keep waiting. Which makes things so much harder for the both of you. But it will also wear on the OW. If she's uncooperative now, just think how sick she will be of the whole thing next month, and the month after that . . .

Anyway, there are lots of reasons to have some confidence about this whole thing. The truth has a way of making itself known. I hope that I can help somehow--let me know. Your advice has helped me so much.

And thanks to both of you--MF and F&L--for your encouragement on my flat-chestedness (I don't think that's really a word, but oh well). As if our own little insecurities aren't already hard enough to live with . . . My feelings now are that I never want a boob job, if it means looking more like her. I want my H to love me for who I am. Maybe someday I will feel differently. But my H hasn't brought it up either, which tells me that he also recognizes that the whole idea was all wrapped up with his A. After I had initially brought it up, he would make little encouraging remarks about it, "when are you going to do it? . . . have you had your consultation yet? . . ." But ever since Dday, he's not said a word about it. I think he knows that it's not something that is on the table right now. Too bad for him.

Anway--I've been working on this post bit by bit for a while now, so I am going to post now and see what I've missed. I'll check back later!

-C

Post deleted by MAMAFISH

((((MAMAFISH))))
I feel so sorry for your situation. You have so much else on top of the A to deal with. I feel like I really know you well enough to say that I think you are a strong person and you will get through all this BS and be even stronger because of it.

The OW in your case really takes the cake. Unbelievable! I agree with csj (not that I know anything but Law and Order too) but it does not seem that with all the REAL crimes that are commited this would go to trial. I will pray for you that this is over soon.

CSJ I am so glad you are here for Mamafish. How fortunate that you know so much to help her in this situation. I wanted to tell you that during my Hs A he said so many hurtful things to me about my appearance. He even asked me if I would start wearing business suits (I am a SAHM)...would I be wearing them to the grocery store or the playground? I talked at length about this on "trust issues" but I have never been confident about my weight and he has NEVER cared. On our 1st year anniversary I told him I had put on a bunch of weight and he said "You did?". During the A he cared. He was always on me about my weight. I will never forget that because I have issues with it because of my dad. But to stop rambling about it...it was his issue not mine. As soon as the truth came out he never mentioned it again. He always tells me he loves the way I look. I think it was his insecurties about the way HE felt about himself. He needed me to be "perfect" to make him feel better. I hope that makes sense its so much clearer in my head. When and if you are ready for something like that it should be for you but I have a feeling you are ok with you and he is too just not himself.

Hopefully we will all grow from this BS and WS. What did I read here..its not the infidelity that defines you its how you deal with it and grow from it (very loosely translated).

Hope you all have a good night. Mama I will be thinking of you!
HF

MamaFish,

HAPPY BIRTHDAY AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!

Like I said I'm not in law or in law enforcement., but like I said and CSJ did, you can get information on the OW, without tampering. This should be done by you, not your husband. I was talking about getting letters from people stating what a good guy your husband is, etc. Plus, you can find things out on the internet – you’d be surprised I know it costs a some money – but it is worth it. I wouldn't recommend you going to the OW's job - she might also press charges against you for harassment - that you're trying to get even with her.

What is the OW's alterative motive - does she want your husband to go to jail - does she want money - does she want him to be named as a sexual predator for the rest of his life? Do you know what she really wants? I really don't think she'd drop the charges - she wants to get even - she doesn't have anything to lose. If the evidence against her is so overwhelming - it may not go to trial - her lawyer may tell her this - they may want to make some kind of deal.

I'm sure your lawyer is doing all he can - but you can also help him if you can. Sometimes, they need help to - they just have so many things to handle. It's not like "Law and Order" on TV - that they go out and do all the work themselves - that's TV only. Incidentally, "Law and Order SVU" is my favorite. I watch all of them. Love Mariska Hargitay - she's a tough, and attractive.

CSJ: Keep giving us good advice - I'm taking notes!
Are you from Utah?

HopingFor: Hey, what's wrong with stay-at-home-moms!!! I worked so many years full time and now I stay home. If you're lucky enough to stay at home -that's great. I think everyone would love to be at home - but some can't. I know thru experience that it's much harder to work full time, then come home and try and do everything in 2-3 hours. It doesn't matter what you do, just be proud of yourself. There’s nothing wrong with a SAHM. Being a good mom and taking care of your family is the most important job in the world. You shape your children and support your husband, so he can work and that's the reason you can stay home - because of your support.

For years went I went to work - I always dressed up - had to because of my job. I never got out of that - most of the times when I go out - I do dress up - nice jeans, nice shirt or blouse and nice shoes - makes me feel good. When I don't dress up - I feel different. I've always been this way. You don't have to have a ton of money to dress nice - it's the way you put your things together. Just be the best you can – for you – do what makes you feel good and happy.

I too, got a lot of negative comments during my husband's affair – my husband kept telling me to work out - but when I found out who it was with - I was like, what????is he kidding - making comments about me???? If the OW and I stood next to each other - she could never compare to me. I think a lot of guys do comparing and making comments, when they cheat. Once they realize what the OW is really like, they stop.

Well, take care all. I've said enough. Another nice day today. I'm off to see my dad. Gave him a haircut the other day - he thinks he's so handsome now!!!

Good morning all,

Hopingfor, thanks for your hugs...I appreciate that. I don't know what I would have done if not for MB. I know that this will make me stronger, and hopefully a better and happier person when it's over, but it stinks right now...

I agree w/ F&L and what she said about the WS making comments and being critical of the W during the A. My H also did this. He had always told me that I was beautiful and didn't realize how much. He never once complained about my pregnancy weight--said I was sexy or cute. I have always been thin. When I met him, I was only about 115 lbs. Now I am 135 and he says I shouldn't lose anymore because I will be too skinny...he likes me better with a little weight. He gets concerned when I lose weight like I did after DDay....We have talked before about how we stopped wearing makeup at home, getting dressed up at home and kind of taking for granted that our Hs considered us beautiful no matter what. During the A, my H would comment that I would dress nicer to go to work than to go out w/ him and the kids. I work in a business casual office so don't have to wear a suit, and even can wear jeans on Fridays. He would comment that I didn't polish my nails, but if I did, he would say that he didn't like the color, so he bought me some nailpolish once at Victorias Secret, in colors that he liked. I put it on and he liked it. Then the next week he complained that my nails were all chipped, so I explained how tough it was for me then to do my nails and keep them nice w/ all the typing and housework I do. He kept on me about that on and off during the whole A.

I think that they find a sensitive area for you and then pick at it to make themselves feel better. Like I said, I have always been thin, but am selfconscious about my body due to my stretch marks/tummy/etc. In our first MC session, he told the IC that he found my body attractive but I would hide it from him. He would rarely see me naked except if we had sex. This is true because when I would come out of the shower, I would usually bring my clothes in the bathroom w/ me...Anyway, I never knew this bothered him. Never thought once about it. Once I knew this, I stopped trying to cover myself up thinking that I was unattractive. I thought, if my H thinks I'm sexy, than I am. It was a big change in attitude for me, and just goes to show that their comments during the A can't be taken to heart. I think that they realize these things hurt us (the words) and now they don't bring it up (business suits, boob job, etc). I even said to my H a few mos ago that I knew in my head that he didn't have an A because I didn't have my nails done all the time, and he shook his head and said no, not at all. It was just an excuse. Now, I try to do them when I can. He has told me there is no comparison between us...that I would be shocked if I saw her because I am making her out to be so beautiful in my head. Now he sees her for what she was...an ugly person on the inside can make a pretty person ugly on the outside.

F&L is right again about dressing up making you feel better about yourself. I am not a SAHM, but I know that when I was on maternity leave and vacation a couple wks ago, I felt much better when I dressed nice. And I have been updating my wardrobe by buying clothes at Walmart--very inexpensive (like $5) for shirts and pants--pretty trendy too. I have gotten alot of compliments from coworkers on outfits from the clearance rack that cost less than $10 total! It can be done!

F&L, I also love L&O SVU, and Mariska (I love her name too)...That sitch with your H and the other OW/OMW/OW mom, wow, it is hard to keep track of...Good thing your H is out of there. I do think that there is a prejudice still out there for interacial couples. For the most part, my H and I have been treated fairly, and now that we have kids, most people comment on how beautiful they are. They are a perfect mix of us--kind of like Halle Berry color --you can tell they are biracial. I get mistaken for being Hispanic alot, which seems to be more accepted by people than being just white, not sure why this is. I think that the police took the OW more seriously because of the race issue. In CT we have had some issues with the police like that, and the city this happened has had a lot of problems in the police dept. And like you said, they do have to take the report seriously when it comes in. The employee relations dept dropped the whole thing at work when they found out about the A.

My H says that he never met the OW's mother and I don't know if she knew of the relationship or not. It is a strange situation. They are from MA but live here in CT now. I did do a zabasearch and found OW with two addresses in MA. And funny thing too is he said she was 25 when he met her, but the zabasearch says Feb 1981 is her bday, and that would make her 25 NOW, so she lied about her age too. I am not going to go to her job. She works midnight - 8 am so even if I went to the casino, it would not be at that time.

As for what she wants, I really have no idea. This is a criminal case now. The prosecutor is pursuing the charges. I have been told that she does not have to do anything in order to pursue. If she doesn't cooperate, it would be harder for the state to prove its case, like CSJ said, and they may drop it. According to my H's friend at work, she is going on like normal now. She won't get money from him as he has none. I think she may have wanted attention, and maybe she only wanted to get him in trouble, but it now has gone too far, maybe farther than she wanted. So many times I have thought, why didn't she just call me and expose the A, if she really wanted him? The lawyers I spoke with said that she must have really been in love with him--what a way to show love. He says that she was so abused by her previous boyfriends, that she totally fell in love with him when he showed her attention.

F&L, do you remember a few mos ago I said I got an astrological reading? The astrologer said that the OW just wanted attention. She wanted to feel like she got something out of the deal, that she wasn't just abandoned for his family. She said that the case will work out, the lawyer will make it go away. I don't know how true that is, but it sounds good to me. I think that she wanted my H to be all hers, without his kids. One thing about my H, is that he would never leave his kids. I told him that I would never keep him from his children, no matter what happens between us. He and I may not work out but he will always be their father, no matter what. She didn't even see that side of him to know how he really is.

Well, I hope you are all enjoying the weather. CSJ, how is the weather in UT these days? It is spring here.

gotta get to work now, talk to you guys later!

Mama
I think she just wants revenge. She knows she wont ever have him now and she wants to make him hurt likeshe perceives he hurt her. I am sure that as time wears on she will lose interest in torturing him. All she needs to do is find another victim..oh excuse me..man and she will be off to make his life a living h*&^. I hope that happens soon for your sake so you can get on with the healing you have to do. Enjoy the day!
HF

HF,

I think you're right. The guy that she had a date with 3 days later, told my H that he thought she was looking for a father for her kid, so he only went out w/ her that one time (he was also a coworker, and had no idea that my H and her had been seeing each other)...that is what she's like I guess. I think I have such a tough time understanding her because I don't understand how she can have this baby and not take care of him....She must be a real piece of work, as everyone says she is...

I am enjoying the day. Came into work and a coworker (the one that I wrote on here had badmouthed me a few mos ago) had brought me in a big Dunkin donuts hazelnut coffee and a bagel. Just what I needed! Yumm! We don't really give bday gifts here at work. What we do is have lunch on friday as a group in the office and everyone chips in $1-2 for the bday person, and they chose the place to order lunch from . I chose an Italian place for this Friday...

going out in a bit to go the grocery store w/ my friend/coworker to get out of the office and get lunch. The store has Smart Ones frozen dinners for $1 each. I'm not on Weight Watchers but you can't beat the price and they are good. I bring them to work...

Have a good day ladies~

Mama
I think you should thank your luckystars you dont understand the OW. Whe doesnt seem like someone you would want to be a kindred spirit with ya know?

After all this I am still glad I am me and not someone so desperate and coniving as the OW inmy case. I know you are too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
HF

Yes, HF, if I could understand her, that would be scary....I think that I could almost feel sorry for her in a pathetic way, if I saw this in a movie and not in my own life...

You're right though. Despite everything, I'm glad that I am me, and I'm glad that she didn't win him over...At least I have my integrity...even if I am a bit insecure...:)

Take care!

Hello all! Good to see everyone her chatting this morning!

MF--is it your B-Day today???? I hope it's a great one! Today is actually DD2's Bday, we just had her party on Sunday since it was easier to get everyone together. I sent her to day care this morning with a bag full of pixie sticks to share with the other kids, but personally I would much prefer lunch like your office does. Maybe next year, when she turns 3. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

As for doing detective work on your own, I used to direct my clients what to get for me based on things they would tell me. For example, the last rape case I did was a date rape thing similar to your H's. He was maybe mid 40's, and she was about 20. She was claiming that he was a father figure to her, and that she would never, ever have sex with him voluntarily (at the preliminary hearing, she even said he was too ugly for her). But my client told me that she was constantly making very aggresive advances to him, and that they got drunk one night and did it. She regretted it and called it rape (which is why we called it a "buyer's remorse" rape case). I asked him for examples of her outragous flirting, and he told me about parties they would go to, and how she would do strip teases and similar things. I asked if anyone had pictures of the parties? Maybe, he said. And so I had him call around to his friends to find some. And he got some great ones! Meanwhile, at the preliminary hearing, I got her making all kinds of statements (under oath) of things she would have NEVER done with my client. She dug herself a great hole. And then, before trial, I put together I little photo album with all of the pictures my client got, showing her doing all the things she said she would never have done, and showed the prosecutor. She took one look at them and dismissed the whole case. The prosecutor told me that the "victim" saw the pictures and questioned, "so is the attorney trying so say I'm a slut?" And the prosecutor said, "yeah, and a liar." I still smile when I picture that conversation.

So maybe that scenerio could give your H ideas of information that might be out there. Once he has an idea of something that might be useful, run it past your attorney and see what he thinks. If he wants to run an investigator out himself, great! If he wants you to talk to someone, then that can be his call. I don't want to tell you to do something different than what he did.

The PD office likely will get a history on her--that's probably common practice for them. In fact, the prosecutor usually has to provide a criminal history for all potential witnesses. And there are lots of records that are discoverable that can be useful: hospital, employee, etc.

As far as getting her to drop charges, that's not worth the time. In the first place, most prosecutors usually wouldn't dismiss a case just because the victim wants out. Some states even have laws that don't permit it. Plus, once someone has gone on the record with an accusation like hers, they kind-of paint themselves into a corner. If they back out, they could be charged with purjury. That's why many of them become uncooperative. They can't really back out, so they try to just fade away. This works just as well as dropping the charges, anyway. She is the key witness, and they can't really proceed without her. But I think the situation was frustrating to women like OW. They want to manipulate and get revenge, and think that this is the perfect way to take control of their out-of-control situation. So they make the accusation as a way to gain control, and then find out they don't have control at all.

Anyway, your whole situation has been on my mind so much since you first posted your story. We all have such awful DDay stories, but yours wins the prize. I am so sorry you and your H have suffered so much through all of this. Having an A carries many consequences, but his one is too much. I hope that your family is holding up alright. Just know that we are all pulling for you!

F&L: Yes, I live in Utah (originally from Idaho--the "potato state"--that makes me laugh every time I think of it). We've finally got some nice springtime weather, which my girls love. My oldest probably needs to move to Florida, though. She wants to wear shorts and flip-flops all year. I hope your dad is doing well, also.

Thanks for all the support, everyone. This place has helped me so much. I read a post the other day that turned on such a light for me--talking about how A's happen in good marriages, too. The bottom line was that it all it takes to commit adultery is to fail to protect your weaknesses. You could be perfectly happy in your M, but you put yourself on the slippery slope when you make a friend (at work, whatever), accept attention and flattery from that person, and begin to share more and more with them. This other person makes deposits into the LB, and bingo--the EA/PA is rolling. Even though I was trying to just focus on positive things I could do to make things better, I kept going back to that nagging question: "why did he do this? could I have done something differently to change it?" And now I finally get it! (Duh!) There is NOTHING I could have, or should have done. THIS IS NOT MY FAULT!!!!!! I cannot say what a weight off of my mind it was.

Anway, enjoy your afternoon, ladies! I will check back later. You are all in my thoughts.

-C.

Hi Ladies,

MamaFish: I told you find stuff out about the OW - don't rely on your attorney to do everything. Plus, don't you get charged for each and every thing they do? But, before you give anything to court - run it by your attorney. CSJ is right, once the charges have been made - it can't be stopped.

I told you - lots of women want what you have - a husband, someone to support their child/children, someone to come home to at night, the security. The OW in our life ran around the office saying no one loved her - she wanted a good man that can take care of her - give her a ring. I'd like to shove that ring right up her you know what!!!! Luckily, my situation didn't get as far as yours, but she tried - and it's not over yet. The Ow needs for someone to beat her butt to a pulp - I hate to say this - but I'm hoping.

I'm going to tell you girls again, stop putting yourselves down about small chests, stretch marks, clothes, whatever - they don't mean a thing. I've had 5 kids and no stretch marks - but did my husband choose a woman without them - no - she had them. None of us could have done anything different than we did - we trusted our spouses. I know I couldn't have done anything different. I doted on him, orked continuously after the children were born, kept myself in shape, I am a good cook, I supported him, we had good SF, I adored him, said he was the best to everyone, what else could I do?

I thought I had a good marriage - yes my husband was stubborn - but no marriage is perfect - but never did I think this was ever going to happen - I don’t' think even my husband was going to. When they are going to cheat - it doesn't matter - you could be the best wife. Look at Halle Barry - isn't she every man's dream - I know my husband thinks she's a babe - but her husband cheated on her - repeatedly. So, don't knock yourselves down - it's them - not you. Just be the best mom, wife and supportive to your man - that's all you can do.

CSJ: Did you say potatoes - love them - everyone loves my mashed potatoes! I hate to say it – but I’ve always been lucky enough that I could eat what I want – like my dad – we love potatoes, bread and pasta – we would die without it. I want to move to FLA. Or at least where it’s warm - I love the summer - I hate snow - I've done enough shoveling/plowing for a lifetime. Give me the flowers - the pool - the warm weather - walking in the cool grass with no shoes - I love it - don't mind mowing the lawn. The girls and I love to walk outside barefooted - my husband says we are like peasants - he hates it. But, that’s the way I grew up and my girls also.

Oh, by the way, I like to have a glass of wine every so often – don’t want to give me too much because I get silly and start dancing around by myself. Sometimes, when I’m upset a glass of wine calms me down. You know, a glass of red wine is good for you – my doctor told me so – gives you red blood cells.

Again, MF, have a happy birthday – lots of love, maybe SF from your hubby, or even some nice hugs. Today’s Wed. Law & Order on TV – sit down and cuddle with your hubby and watch it -all of you. Another thing, MF, Mariska is a form of Mary. Like John – Johnny or Jim – Jimmy. Mariska Hargitay is a Hunky – her dad used to be a body-builder in the 60’s. I think – won several Mr. Olympics. Poor man, he too has some kind of affliction – I think Alzheimer’s.

Have a good night ladies.

Hi F&L and the rest of you gals,

I love lilacs, they are my favorite. They are not out yet here though. Mariska Hargitay is also the daughter of a famous actress (and now her name escapes me...F&L I know you know who she is)...Got it...Jayne Mansfield...I liked her since she was on ER (Mariska) when it first started.

I also love to walk around barefoot in the summer, kids too, H also hates this!!! I have a Russian/Irish/German background so I guess I'm a peasant too...

I like red wine...it does calm you down...makes me sleepy if I have too much...but it does take the edge off!

As for nails, I have never had a professional manicure. Good for you for treating yourself. My H likes dark red/plum colors so that's what I wear. When I wear something different for myself, he usually hates it (like in the summer, I like the lighter colors--they show the chips less too LOL)..

That is a rough story about your ex-H and the whole child support thing. I will talk to H tonight about doing some detective work. We have been afraid to do anything because of the warnings we got from people not to. Will let you know how court goes tomorrow am.

Have a good night All!

MF,

Yes, her mom was Jayne Mansfield - the one with the big, big boobs back in the 50's or 60's. The counterpart of Marilyn Monroe - she looks just like her mom!

Tomorrow is court? Good luck - get back to us as to what happened. Whatever - tomorrow is another day. But, don't forget about what I told you - take care of you and your family first - no matter what.

Talk to you later.

Hello! I thought I'd check in one more time before I head out this evening.

Glad to hear you got the manicure, F&L. I swear by them--it is my therapy. I got a pedicure once, and I loved it so much it was a little scary, so I didn't keep doing it--it seemed too much like cocaine or something. But every so often, I get the feeling I need one again . . .

And you're from New Jersey? I was actually there once, a long, long time ago. I was with a school group in high school and we went to NYC to see some Broadway shows, and while there we took the ferry across to Jersey. (Idaho kids in the big city . . . we had never seen anything like it!) So I didn't see too much of the "Garden State", but I checked it off as another state that I had been in anyway. It was a fun trip, though. We climbed the Statue of Liberty, and spent some time on the observation deck at the World Trade Towers. Makes me sad now . . . .

MF- Have your H write out EVERYTHING. The history of his relationship with OW, everything he knows about her, EVERYTHING. That was always my preference, to have it in writing. To have them tell the story out loud, you miss certain parts--and they might forget to include something. But in writing, they could take their time to get it all down, and I could take my time and read through it, and re-read it later if I needed to. His Attorney can pick out what he thinks will be most helpful. You said he had a hearing coming up that was just checking in after his doctor's visit, right? What's next after that? Has he had his preliminary hearing yet (or do you do Grand Juries in CT)?

As for your H suing her for slander--I wouldn't recommend it. In order to win, he would have to, in effect, prove that he DIDN'T do it. And it's still his word against hers--so he would have a tough time. Although in the civil setting the burden is lower (preponderance of the evidence instead of beyond a reasonable doubt), but it would still be hard. But the worst part of it is that, as you pointed out, it drags your family through the whole thing all over again. Really, if the DA dismisses, or if your H is acquitted at trial, he is vindicated. Either way, it is telling the "victim" that her story isn't believable. Anyway, I'm a believer in karma. What goes around, comes around. It will come around to her one day.

But I'll check out so I can finish up a few things before I head out. My Wednesday night fix is "The Amazing Race." There is this big part of me that wants to see the world, but my H is not much for traveling. So the exotic spots on Amazing Race will have to do--for now anyway.

I'll talk to you ladies tomorrow!

God bless,
-C.

MF and CSJ,

I bring my girls a couple of times every summer into the city - we bum around 5th ave. to see the shops, St. Patrick's, check out the street vendors, etc. We go down town to China Town and Little Italy, to get the rip off designer pocketbooks and then we have lunch. They know the directions on the streets from walking around. We hop on the Subways - they're like typical New Yorkers.

MamaFish, I agree with CSJ, you and your husband both should write everything down, so as not to forget something. When you are in court - you get nervous and forget things - which may be important. Once I suspected my husband of his affair - I always kept a log in a date book -now I keep this all the time.

I again, agree with CSJ, on the slander issue. Don't do it - do you want to go thru this again - for what?


Why drag him and the family thru the mud? How would the kids feel going to school - everyone knowing what their dad did?

What would you gain from suing her - perhaps a monetary amount? The best thing for you and your family is, if the case is dropped, dismissed or your husband is acquitted - just move on with your lives - forget it happened - be thankful the judge rules in your favor.


Hope all is well.

Post deleted by MAMAFISH

Post deleted by MAMAFISH

((((Mama))))
Thats terrible! How are you holding up? I wish we all had time machines but honestly I would give mine to you if I had one to turn back the clock for you so he never even met this psycho! I undesrstand your anger with him. His being involved with her could be so devastating to your entire family but what can he do now? If youlove him you are right you have to staand by him. He must feel so guilty for dragging you into all this.

Would his parents give him the money? He is lucky to have you onhis side comforting him and being there for him. Thats the best thing you can do. I will check in soon if you want to talk and I will keep you and your H in my prayers.
HF

MF,

Oh, I watched Law & Order last night – it wasn’t that good. I also like “Cold Case”. My youngest daughter wants to go into forensics. She also likes all the CSI’s.

I'm so sorry that your day is going bad....your poor husband....he may have made a mistake.....but what a price to pay. These OW are relentless.

If the prosecutor wants a name for himself - wants to go full force - he'll do so. As our prosecutor did - we begged and pleaded not to go to court. So far as not bringing up the past in these charges - they do - they manage somehow. Our case was also narrowed down to give the defendant 2 yrs. prison time - which in the end was waived.

When you're involved with someone - again, I repeat it's very hard to prove rape. If it does got to trial, for your sake, I hope not, your lawyer better darn well, bring up something about her past, even if indirectly. Even the assault charge can't be proved, because she made it - doesn't mean it will stick. Case in point:

Watch out for these lawyers - sometimes they are just out for money. You can get a free consultation from any lawyer and they will tell you their thoughts and recommendations. $5/K sounds like a lot of money up front!!!! I know all lawyers want a retainer - but chose them wisely. Some of these lawyers are like the ones riding behind an ambulance - just waiting to get a case to make money. Some lawyers do not charge if they don't win the case!!!!

My husband thinks everything is "Hunky dory" but I've know about too many things in the past and now about revenge!

But anyway, just stand behind your husband, get all the info you can and make sure he is totally honest with you. You can’t help him if he isn’t.

One other thing…from what you said about this OW….I can see her in the future accusing some other guy of being a father to her child…..she seems like the type that gets pregnant and tries to accuse someone of being the father. Women like this, that’s all they do, get involved with someone that’s not available and then try and get even. I also watch Maury Provich during the day if I’m flipping channels.

Don't be angry at him - men just aren't as smart as us. Hee, Hee! Just stand by his side. Talk to you tomorrow.

Post deleted by MAMAFISH

MF-

Don't worry too much about her cooperation with the DA right now. We already know that OW is vengeful and unstable. This just proves that point further. She may have just decided that she is mad again, or she might have felt some pressure from the DA to cooperate (that painted into the corner thing I mentioned before). It may take her being confronted with some serious inconsistencies in her story for her to back down. Just keep playing the waiting game.

And as for the judge appearing to side with the DA--that is pretty normal at this stage. I think most judges approach a criminal case with the idea that there wouldn't be a case unless there is something to it ("where there's smoke there's fire . . ."), but keep in mind that the judge has heard NONE of the evidence. They do not have access to the police reports, witness lists, anything like that. I had judges be rather antagonistic towards my clients, and then totally change their tune after the trial when they had a chance to hear for themselves. So it's not necessarily as bad as it looks.

And remember that there are lots of factors that still need to play out in a case like this. That's why they tend to drag on and on. I usually figured on about a year from the time of filing to finish it, maybe a little less if it didn't go to trial, and maybe a little more if the trial went forward. But that leaves plenty of time for negotiation. It sounds like the SA charge is definately in play--and if it is the kidnapping is too, since those go hand in hand (to rape someone necessarily implies that the person was also held against their will). The larceny will have less wiggle room, but since that one is the least serious, your H is probably not too worried.

I peeked online at a copy of the CT criminal code, and it looks like there should be some room to negotiate for the assault also, which is good because it looks like that can carry mandatory prison (whew--we don't have an assault with mandatory prison in UT--CT is pretty rough). But there are a number of rather technical things the DA will have to prove to get there, and depending on what OW's medical reports look like, it could be difficult to really make the first degree assault stick. Here is a copy of what I pulled out of the CT Code:

Sec. 53a-59. Assault in the first degree: Class B felony: Nonsuspendable sentences. (a) A person is guilty of assault in the first degree when: (1) With intent to cause serious physical injury to another person, he causes such injury to such person or to a third person by means of a deadly weapon or a dangerous instrument; or (2) with intent to disfigure another person seriously and permanently, or to destroy, amputate or disable permanently a member or organ of his body, he causes such injury to such person or to a third person; or (3) under circumstances evincing an extreme indifference to human life he recklessly engages in conduct which creates a risk of death to another person, and thereby causes serious physical injury to another person; or (4) with intent to cause serious physical injury to another person and while aided by two or more other persons actually present, he causes such injury to such person or to a third person; or (5) with intent to cause physical injury to another person, he causes such injury to such person or to a third person by means of the discharge of a firearm.

(b) Assault in the first degree is a class B felony provided (1) any person found guilty under subdivision (1) of subsection (a) shall be sentenced to a term of imprisonment of which five years of the sentence imposed may not be suspended or reduced by the court and (2) any person found guilty under subsection (a) shall be sentenced to a term of imprisonment of which ten years of the sentence imposed may not be suspended or reduced by the court if the victim of the offense is a person under ten years of age or if the victim of the offense is a witness, as defined in section 53a-146, and the actor knew the victim was a witness.
***

Really, the DA has to show use of a weapon, serious injury, or action in concert with other people to get this. Now caselaw can define "serious injury" as something less than what that term conveys in normal conversation, but, the statute does require some sort of sustained injury, and I am wondering if that is really present or not.

So anyway--not to get too buried in the details--it does look like there is some wiggle room here, and I'm sure your attorney is working on those angles.

About switching attorneys--I wish I knew someone who practiced out there so I could get the inside scoop! It sounds like there are a lot of positives with your current attorney, and getting a private attorney doesn't always translate into a better deal. I can't tell you how many times I saw defendants leave the PD where I worked (to get a "real attorney") and then saw them plead to the same offer we had worked out for them. They could have saved themselves a lot of money. And I am a little skeptical of attorneys who hand out cards at court. In my experience (and maybe the local practice is different where you are), the really good attorneys didn't need to drum up work by passing out cards. They got all the work they wanted from word of mouth. So I would ask around to find out what the reputation of these attorneys really is. But it never hurts to consult with a different person. It is very important to feel comfortable with your legal representation. And if the best person is someone who needs $10,000 up front--then it is money well spent to have this critical aspect of your H's life (and yours) handled in the best way. If you don't know who to ask, I would start with a well-known, well-respected attorney who practices in a totally different area of law. Call his (or her <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) office and ask for a referral for the best criminal defense attorney. The best attorneys will know which of their collegues to send you to.

I am glad you are going in with your H to meet with the PD--then you can get a feel for him, too. Bring in your H's "journal" so that you can go through that--and I think it's a great idea to write out what you remember, too. If you are called as a witness, you can use your notes to refresh your memory. And who knows, when you and your H get to writing, some really important information may come to the surface!

And you also asked about how long your H would have to decide on what he wants to do. Generally plea offers do expire, but not immediately. I never had a problem with a prosecutor holding an offer open so a client could think about it. This is a common courtesy. Usually they will give you a date "this is open until May 15" or whatever.

Keep me posted on how things are. In the meantime, my law school has a "law society" of former students, and where they are practicing. I will try and get some information about good criminal lawyers close to you. What is the closest metropolitan area I should look at?

On the lighter side . . . how can you stand SpongeBob? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And F&L--I love that you are Hungarian! That is so exotic--and to have another language like that is so great. I have always wished I could speak another language . . . French maybe! Actually, my grandparents are Norwegian, so I would pass better for that. In fact, years ago I went on a geneology trip with my parents to Norway, and people on the streets would come up and talk to me in Norwegian. So I guess I do have a Scandanavian look to me. Unfortunately, I had to tell them that I only spoke English. (Oh those "ugly Americans, anyway!)

Anyway, I will hurry and post this so you all can read it before you head out--it's probably almost quitting time on the East Coast!

I'll check back later, ladies!

-C.

MF,

Parents, often until it is too late, realize what they have done and what they have missed out on. This all too often happens not only with parents, but with husbands/wives too.

You have to convince your husband to be honest with you - this is so important. I know they are so stubborn. I hope that you are telling him of all the stuff I went thru. If you don't know the truth, you can't help him.

I hate to say this, but I don't think our story is over yet either. Things are running too smoothly right now ---- you would think this is a good sign---makes me think!

Let’s see what advice CSJ has. Got to get ready for a softball game tonight. Good night all!

Post deleted by MAMAFISH

HI girls
I cant understand all the racism in the country. Its really unbelievable its the 21st century sometimes how divided things are and I live in the North! My friend jusst moved last year to the South and her RE agent told her to make sure she moved to a developement because she could move next door to a Klansman if she picked a regular street. WHAT????? I cant believe that even exists it seems like it has to be made up. Crazy.

Mama
I hope you had a peaceful night and were able to sleep at the very least. I am super busy tomorrow with my Uncles wake/funeral. I had to reschedule my sons 1st communion <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> but he will be able to do it next weekend thankfully! Hopefully I can check in with you at some point in the day.


CSJ
Have you been watching Big Love on HBO? I can imagine its being talked about more in your community than in mine but its mind boggling! I am sure you know of it but if you dont its a poligamist family in Utah and it just a drama about their lives. He rotates between 3 wives. He walks downstairs and kisses all 3 wives before he goes to work. It really makes you think about relationships. It shows the women being jealous but trying to love each other too in a platonic way of course.

Can I just say this would not fly with me for the record I am not a good sharer as demonstrated by my near nervous breakdown from my Hs 5 night stand with ^&^%$.

F&L
I hope for your sake nothing comes of your news! I will be thinking of you!
Take care everyone
HF

HF-

Okay, I am LOL (and I do not take internet abbreviations lightly)! I have been watching "Big Love"--partly because it is so bizarre that I cannot make myself change the channel. I agree with you 100%--I have discovered through this whole process that I would not be good at spousal sharing.

There is a little enclave of polygamists near where I live (about an hour drive) and they are well-known for their cabinetry work. So there's a little bit of Utah trivia for you. The few times I have seen polygamists, they look a bit more like the main character's back-woods family than the central family. But I shudder sometimes when I watch that show--I hope other folks watching that don't really think Utah folks are as odd as all of that!

Entertaining, anyway.

Check back with you all tomorrow!
-C.

CSJ
See that makes more sense to me than a group of 3 houses on a cul de sac on Wisteria Lane as it seems in the show. They seem so normal everyday life people too. Very foreign! And no I did not think all of Utah was "sharing" I kind of always thought of the polygamists like the Amish of Pennsylvania. Not that I thought all that much about it before Big LOve. I too cant change the channel!
HF

Hi HF and CSJ,

I watched Big Love this week too , and had the same reaction--could not change the channel and stayed up to midnight to watch it! I would also not do well with this sharing idea, but it is a riot to watch. Especially when the one wife is ovulating so the other wife told her she could have her night--I was like, OH MY GOD!!

And no, I don't think all of Utah is like that either...just like all of NY isn't like the Sopranos. But it is entertaining!

HF,
Interesting what you said about the South. My H is from VA and he says that at least when you are in the South, people don't hide their racism like they do up here. he says, you can tell who is and who isn't, there is no trying to hide it.

Sorry to hear about your uncle. My thoughts are with you today.

CSJ, I read your last post to me to my H last night and I think it made him feel a bit better. He was so upset last night when I came home w/ the kids. He gave us all a big hug and kiss and was crying. I feel so bad for him.

Just for the record, he had a consultation with the lawyer from court (the one who gave him his card) back in October, but had not contacted him again. That is why the lawyer gave him his card (He wasn't just handing them out to everyone)...I got the names of a few lawyers from the lawyer who had handled my H's previous case, and he was one of them. My H's former attorney had said he could do it but was not as familiar w/ the court in that county, and it would cost more due to his travel time there and back. He recommended some local lawyers to us. He was a former DA, as was the lawyer my H talked to yesterday. I don't know how to find out what his reputation is, but my H seemed to trust him. I did tell him what you said about changing lawyers is not necessarily the best thing to do. We are going to wait to see how our appt w/ the PD goes. I have met him before and to me, he seems honest and is really trying to get my H the best deal he can. My H feels like he thinks that he should do jail time for what he did. I told him that even if he feels that way, he is obligated to do the best he can for his clients. Of course my H would love to hear that this will all go away, so when he is not hearing this, he gets nervous. I think the PD is being straight w/ him.

Anyway, we did have a good night and H even managed to smile, due to the kids. He did not sleep very well but I was okay. I'm glad that the weekend is almost here though.

I will leave my email up for a little longer today but will take it off before I leave so it's not public. Let me know if you get it so I can remove it.

Have a great day, will check in later!

Morning all-

MF, I sent you an email a few minutes ago, and I printed out the post with your email in it, so go ahead and erase it.

It sounds like the private attorney your H talked to could be a good option as well. Last night I went to martindalehubble.com to check out attorney listings in your area, and 7 came up. 1 of them had been practicing for about 30 years, so I wondered if that was the guy. He was in solo practice, and appears to have a lot of good experience. And if he was referred to you from another attorney that you trust, that is a very positive thing. I have a short list of attorneys that I will refer others to--I wouldn't send anyone to someone that I didn't have confidence in, and I'm sure your H's previous attorney wouldn't either. I think it's a good idea to meet with both the PD and the other guy. Get a feel for them both.

Anyhow, I've got to run for a minute. I will check back in a bit.

-C.

CSJ,
Thanks, I got your message and sent one back to you. My H trusts his previous attorney. I met with the PD and talked to the recommended attorney on the phone, but my H actually met with him. So we'll see.

Take care,
MF

Hello ladies,

How are you all doing today? I just want to thank all of you for your kindness and support this week. I am so glad to have your friendships right now, and I am glad that I shared my story with you. I have been trying to focus on rebuilding my M all these times, and have put the legal issues off to the side. Now, it seems as if the legal issues will be moving up in priority. It is not going away but we can't just sit back without being proactive.

The upside to what happened this week is that I hope it spurs my H on to actually do the work on rebuilding the M, instead of saying we will do it 'someday'. We cannot afford to take our M for granted any longer. Of course, in light of the legal issue, we are coming together but he is going to have to confide in me and trust in me if we are going to fight this. The stakes are too high for keeping secrets. I guess this is why I have been trying to push him on meeting ENs. At least I have control over something (our M) when I have none over the other area.

I hope you are all doing well. Again, it meant alot to me that you all put your problems to the side for a bit to help me get out of a sticky place. I appreciate all the concern and good thoughts. I have questioned whether or not it is worth working on our M and I believe it is, even though somedays are tougher than others, as we all know. My H is a good man. He made a mistake when he had his A, and even bigger mistakes as the A progressed and then ended. I guess like other WSs, he was abducted by aliens or something.

Anyway, I just wanted to say that and let you know that I am here for all of you. We are all struggling with the pain of betrayal. That is the biggest issue for me as well too. If H was in this situation because of a fight w/ a man, it would still be serious, but wouldn't have the pain that this does. If he never had his A, we wouldn't be in this situation.

Take care and have a great weekend!

MF

I hope it's ok for me to chime in here.....

I am a FWW. And I wanted you to know something that gives me a lot of hope.

Before my A, my H and I had such bad communication. Now, (it's only been a few weeks since TOTAL disclosure) we are ALREADY so much closer. We've both said that if it wasn't for this A, who knows what would have happened. We both feel that we are going to have a BETTER M because of it.

In no way am I trying to diminish the pain that I have caused. I just thought maybe it would help all of you if you thought about the future in that way.

God Bless.

Hey Mama
I too am appreciative of the support I find here. It feels like you and I are old friends since you have been there for me for months of grief almost since the beginning. You have been a good "cyberfriend" and I dont know what I would have done all these months without you telling me it will get better and to hang in there. I needed to hear I was doing the right thing by sticking by him so many times.

I am glad you got to sleep last night and so glad that CSJ knows what she is talking about. That is so great! I am sure it was a relief to hear that what happened yesterday is "normal".

I am doing ok. Have been noticing "cycles" with my recovery. 3 days of ok then a while of crying escalating to sobbing and then 3 days of ok. Doesnt seem I can go more than that without asking questions and he gets frustrated and short with me and I get upset/angry and start up again. Today is day 4 and I am just a little sad so maybe I am getting better.

I feel like a wimp with all you are going through and all that is going on around here. A friend of ours is dying right now any day of cancer 2 little kids. Ihave 2 other friends with kids that have cancer. H keeps telling me to be thankful for what we have...that our kids dont have to say goodbye to one of us today. I am so grateful for my life and humbled by all that is happening around us but I still cant help feeling like I have a right to some grieving myself. I have always thought of myself as a strong person but I am so weak from this its crazy. Self pity I know. I need to be stronger thinkof other things. Maybe I go 5 days this week! WooHoo!

F&L I havent seen you here today hope all is ok with your Hs job.

Have a great day everyone its beautiful here!
HF

Hi Ladies,

Just made some subs/heroes for my daughter and her boyfriend to bring to the park for lunch - such a nice day outside.

CSJ: I feel like I'm in a Law & Order show on TV. I have to commend you - you are so smart!!!Believe me; I will keep your name in my notes for the future. What a mess these guys got themselves into - and we have to try and bail them out.

I don't get HBO - we already pay so much for cable - so I never saw the show you guys are referring to - but I did see the previews. So, ok, when are they going to have a show with a woman with 2-3 husbands - waiting on them "hand and foot" -doing the housework for them, admiring them, taking care of the kids, everything their heart desires. That's a show I would love to watch!!!! I know this will never happen in our lifetime. Isn't it funny how we accept this form of lifestyle - because it is a man!!!

CSJ: I saw so many specials about those guys in Utah that take young girls as their wives when they are just young innocent girls, then when they get older they get another and another. How could they do this????

This world is so full of racial and stupid people. When will this all end? All of you got to see the video - "North Country" - what they do to the women in the workplace will make you want to scream!!!I never understood why people are so bigoted. Another quick story for you guys:

As you know, I wasn't born in this country - came here when I was very small - wcame with nothing but the clothes on our back - no money we were refugees - we were poor - but I didn't know it. Look up 1956 Hungarian Revolution on internet - Hungarians refused to be communists.

When I was about 10 - I made friends with a Jewish girl -she asked me to come over her house and play with her. I went over and saw a woman making lunch for us - I thanked her mom for the lunch. My friend said, "Oh no! that's not my mom - that's our maid". Maid???? I only saw maids on TV - not in real life.

Out came this woman with a nice dress, shoes, pearls around her neck, looked like "Leave it to Beaver's Mom", ok - I'm dating myself - this was the little girl's mom. She asked me some questions, were do you live, who are your parents, what do they do? Me being innnocent, I answered to the best of my knowledge.

I went back to school - the little girl kept ignoring me - I finally asked can I come over your house again - wondering why she was ignoring me? She told me - my mom told me I couldn't play with you because she didn't like where you live!!! Where I live??? - a three room, NOT bedroom apt. - what's wrong with this???This was the first time I realized I was poor. This was the first time I saw prejudice.

Now, I have a beautiful house, my husband makes a good salary, I've had a good job, we have the 2 cars, I have what I want, but I never forgot my roots! Even now, even though I can afford it, I always buy stuff on sale, feel like I get gypped if I don’t – I have taught this to all my children – I am very frugal – I never spend frivolously. I never look down upon someone from another race or someone that has less than me. I've been there - to be thrilled to get a 1 new dress for Christmas - not 20 different toys/items. To me all people are equal.

MF, good luck with everything. Talk to you all later.

Sad and confused
We must have been posting at the same time. I am so interested in your point of view there are so many things I dont understand or I guess believe that could be true.

My FWH said he never stopped loving me. I wonder can that be true?

It was all about him? Says he was just being self centered and is ashamed now. But wasnt I even considered as a stumbling block? How could he love me and not think this is going to hurt her I am not going to do it.

Can these things be true? I dont understand it. I have never really been around that many men during our A as I dont work outside the home. I dont get how you can be in love and be tempted.

I really struggle with this. Not so much the actual A anymore just what it meant that he was capable of doing it. I thought I knew him so well. Now I think I never will understand who he is and he will never understand me if he thought I was just "not that into him" b/c I was busy with the kids.


He wants me to just be normal "everything is ok I love YOU..it meant nothing" but I just cant bring myself to trust him with my feelings. Do I believe him? Yes but I always did even during the A he proclaimed love for me all the time. Now I am so scared.

Anyway thanks for the words of encouragement. I too think we will be stronger someday but boy is it a rollercoaster. I will never fully trust him again and that really kills me but everyone has scars I guess.
HF

HopingFor

"I will never fully trust him again and that really kills me but everyone has scars I guess."

Yes you will. From what I hear it is a rollercoster. There will be good days and TERRIBLE days.

"My FWH said he never stopped loving me. I wonder can that be true?

It was all about him? Says he was just being self centered and is ashamed now. But wasnt I even considered as a stumbling block? How could he love me and not think this is going to hurt her I am not going to do it.

Can these things be true? I dont understand it. I have never really been around that many men during our A as I dont work outside the home. I dont get how you can be in love and be tempted."

I NEVER stopped loving my H, ever. After I would see the OM, I would feel so sick. However, kept seeing him. IT IS AN ADDICITON, just like everyone says. I am lucky b/c I was able to break free out of the FOG (which let me tell you was so bad I tried to end my life) very quickly.

My story is quite ugly and disqusting....mind you I was pregnant with our 2nd DD while all of this was taking place.

You can make it work - it takes time, lots of time.

Please keep in touch with me. I'd love to have another MB friend.

Keep the faith. Pray, pray, pray. God does work in mysterious ways. Our M is going to be SO MUCH STRONGER because of this.

Hi,

CSJ, MamaFish has my e-mail - if you like, you can get in touch with her and talk to me privately - that's up to you.

SadandConfused: We are on the opposite end of the stick. I don't like to make judgements - but please explain to us how you did this. I know people make mistakes - we all have. We too were ignored, taken for granted, yet we didn't cheat. Maybe you can give us some insight - and you were pregnant? If I forgave my husband - your's should also.

When did this happen? Is your situation more ugly and disgusting than anyone elses? I think not!! Maybe we can help each other out.

Thanks sad and confused
I will stay in touch with you and I respect your committment working on your marriage even though you were the "wrong" one. I dont see many WS here. I think for my H he was almost cured when I found out. He had been carrying the guilt so long it just lifted off of him and was transferred to my shoulders.

My H too said he hated himself during the A. His mother died during the A and he thought God was punishing him. Still he went back to her after his mothers death. Even called her after the funeral. There are just so manythings I just dont "get". He says I never will. And I dont thinkhe will ever "get" that I just cant put it away like it was just a rough time in our marriage.

Thanks for sharing the other side of things.
HF

F&L - Yes we are on opposite sides, but then again we all dealing with infidelity in our M. Whether we've created the pain or our S created it. We are ALL living it.

Before I respond to your post....think for a minute how lucky we all are that we can reach out to total strangers and create such connections by helping one another. I know I am very early into recovery, however, I am so changed by not only my A, but MB. I don't see an end for me, which is a good thing. I want to become an expert on infidelity. If fascinates me, actually. I want to help other people, I want to help them realize "Yes, you can make your marriage work and it can be better than you ever imagained".

Have you all read Surviving an Affair? It's a great book and makes soooo much sense. I can't imagine being the BS - my heart goes out to all of you. If you have read the book, get it and learn everything you can from this site.

One of the most helpful things that really worked for me was the Radical Honesty Agreement. I was very scared to share some things with my H, but realized when I became an open book we fell in love with eachother all over again. There were no more secrets, nothing to hide. I had been hiding for so long and I feel like I came alive again through communicating with one another.

However, there are tough days...when I see my H so down I want to physically get sick, when I look in my DD's eyes, and when I am driving home I cry when the visions come into my head of me going down on a man who treated me with nothing but disrespect. What was I thinking? Ugh, it's not pretty.

Bottom line is at first this many told me what I guess I needed to hear, "You are so hot".....and it went from there. He tried numerous times to break it off, but we always ended up back where we started. It wasn't until I came totally clean with my H - that everything turned around. It's hard to explain.

Two of the most important things (to me):

1. RADICAL HONESTY (includes entire pasts on both sides)
2. PUTTING UP HEDGES (to protect my M).

I hope some of this helps you gals. I'm here for you. Just don't beat me too hard! :-)

HF - I'm so sorry that you are going through this.

Please hang in there, keep posting and asking questions. You will come through this. And YOU WILL trust him again. It may not be for a long time but you will get there.

Try to take one day at a time, and if that is too much, then take it hour by hour.

Be kind to yourself, eat well, exercize, get rest.

Will talk to you soon. You're in my prayers - all of you!

Sad and confused,

Over the years I've had many friends that cheated on their husbands - they were my friends and I accepted what they did - didn't agree - but they were my friends. Many times I knew their husbands and boyfriends. I had the delemma whether or not to tell on them - this is so hard.

But, all these were instances that happened to my friends - never to me. One thing I can't understand is if you love your husband, yes, mind you he must have neglected you EN, or whatever - why did you go outside of your marriage. This is one thing I can't for the life of me understand. Didn't you think of the repercussions?

My husband never treated me like a queen, his father hated me, we had so many obsticles, he bossed me around for years, we were never equal, was domineering, but I loved him - I could never do that to him. I worked my butt to the bone for him, was always there, we had a good sex life, I kept myself in shape. He never wanted to talk to me - would always rather listen and talk to other people - he thought I was always against him.

I always thought if I cheated on him - is wasn't worth it- what will the outcome be - waht about my family - will I have a future??? Many men have told me how attractive/hot I was, they would love to have me - but I never fell for that. I was at low points many times in my life - but I was never dumb enough to fall for that. I always felt if I didn't want my husband - I would tell him I would let him go before I cheated.

This is my 2nd marriage, in the first I was abused - but he never cheated - I have never changed in my attitude. I never will.

I don't want to put you down. But, what the he-- were you thinking??? I really would like to know how the OW thinks. The OW in my case is a real winner - I'm sure you are not. But, give me some info on what you were thinking and what you are thinking now.

It is good that we can post to each other without knowing who the other person is. This may help to know what my husband is thinking - mind you he was never in love with the OW and he was not as responsive as you are in making the marriage work.

I don't know when all your things happened, but just because you read a couple of books, doesnt' mean a thing. You are in for a long, heart wrenching time. It takes a lot of long, hard work to make a recovery in a marriage. Because you said you are sorry and your husband said he forgave you - that's only the beginning. You have yet to see what you have actually done to him.

I don't want to scare you off - don't mean any harm.

Take care,

Hey ladies,

I just wrote a really long post and lost it all. I hate when that happens! Anyway, I don't have time to write it all out again but here it is in a nutshell...

Sadandconfused,

Please come back and tell us your story. I would be interested to get your side. I think it will help me to understand what my H was going through. He says he never stopped loving me and never meant to leave me. I don't understand how he could think that this wouldn't hurt me because I didn't know. Didn't he think of me at all when it first started?? How could it continue for so long? Note I was pregnant with our 3rd child when it started, and it continued after DD was born. We can all use another point of view here, and maybe we can help each other see the other side. We are all BSs here though but don't feel like we're all against you. We're a pretty supportive bunch. I commend you for your efforts on rebuilding your M.

Hopingfor,

I am glad to have you as a cyberfriend too. I'm glad that I have been able to help you out. Please don't feel like your pain and hurt doesn't matter, because others are going through more. Yes, you can count your blessings, but you are entitled to your pain. It is your life, you are grieving, and that is normal. Just because someone else has a harder time, or is going through something else, it doesn't mean your pain is any less.

Did you get SAA and HNHN yet?

F&L,

I love your idea for the TV show with the 2-3 husbands waiting on one wife...that is definitely not a reality show! But I would watch it!!

Well, gotta go. Have a good weekend gals and I will see you on Monday!

Hi Sad and Confused
Yes I agree with Mama I think you do have a lot to share with us. Even though you are the opposite sex you can give us some idea on something that is so foreign to us. Thanks for being willing to do that.

Just tonite my H asked if my cousin was wearing her wedding ring at the wake and I said I didnt notice which got me to thinking....was his OW wearing hers? So I asked him and he said yes and I said were you looking for that? and he got angry said I was just drudging up the past blah blah blah. I really feel I deserve to kmow everything I want to know he came back to me a few minutes later and said he is not mad at me but at himself for what he did and what its doing to me. I just need him to be there for me and he just needs me seem ok to him not a basket case I guess.

I do feel badly for us BSs but I told H afew months ago I would hate to have been the one that caused all this pain in our M. Thats a burden too. We all so matter what side of infidelity we were on are hurting. Sometimes it does feel like we will be better because of it sometimes it feels like its eating me alive.

Mama thanks fo rthe kind words! I hope you have a nice weekend. H just went out for take out Thai and I put on the Love station on Sirius radio and lit some candles kids are in bed. Should be nice if I can keep my mouth shut haha! I am going to order the books next chance I get I promise myself!

Hope everyone is doing well!
HF

Hello everyone!

I got torn in so many directions today, but I couldn't resist checking in to see what I had missed. I have so many questions in my head, I could write forever, but I am posting from home, and we have a dial-up connection which is . . . so . . . slow. Plus, it's getting late and I'm exhausted. So I'll be quick:

S&C--so glad to hear from you. It is nice to hear another point of view, because there are so many things I don't understand about the side of things you've been through. I respect you very much for being here, and for the commitment you have made to your marriage. One thing that tortures me is the distant and aloof way in which my H treated me during his A. And it lasted a whole year! I was so lonely, but I kept telling myself to support him, that he must be going through something hard and he would eventually come through it. Even now, with the healing we have done so far, it is almost impossible for me to believe that he did this. So I look back at that awful, lonely year, and I wonder if he was quiet and distracted because he felt too guilty to really talk to me, or was he so in love with her that he couldn't stand to be with me? I know of course, every situation was different and you cannot peer into my H's brain any more than I can. But maybe you have some insight on this.

HF-never feel guilty over feeling your own emotions. They are genuine, and they are yours. I know it is humbling to see the trials of others--I see what you are saying. For exampke, one of the administrators in my office had a heart attack in October (she is about 45, but I guess had a childhood illness that weakened her heart) and her brain was deprived of oxygen for a time. She has survived, but is bedridden and cannot speak or even respond to people. She has teenage kids at home, and was such a vibrant person. I think of her often, and it does make me think that I wouldn't trade my set of problems with anyone else. I may not like my problems, but they are mine. My emotions are mine, and so are yours. And I think they are building blocks in the healing process. You should get those books, too. SAA was a reading assignment I gave to my H, and I really think it helped us both. It at least gave me some positive things to focus on.

F&L-I love your idea for a series! Let's sell it to HBO and make a fortune. You are such a strong person, and I respect so much what you have gone through. The prejudice thing is such a puzzle, isn't it? Sometimes I think it is purely a generational thing--something that only old people would do. But then you see something on the news or whatever, and realize that it's alive and well. I think in my area the worst is probably directed towards hispanic folks. There are quite a few migrant workers here, and many are illegal. There is so much talk about "close all the borders" and "send them all home" and that sort of thing. Sad, really. I mean, we all (except for Am. Indians) came from immigrants. My family came a bit farther back than yours, but still--immigrants. It's a bit hipocritcal to try and chase all the "illegals" out, I think.

And MF--we are all there for you! You are going through rough waters, but it will pass. And at the end, your H will know better than anyone that his W loves him, and is committed to him. He is one lucky guy.

Anyway, I better get to bed. I spent too much time up at my sister's today holding my new nephew--so cute. All curled up like a little kitten. My girls thought he was such a novelty.

But have a great weekend, and I will check back with everyone on monday!

CSJ

Hi All,

First thing: Hoping For, I forgot to tell you, that I'm sorry for you loss of your uncle. I don’t have any relatives here, except for my dad. I always wish I had someone, maybe a sister or brother to talk to. I do have some relatives back in Hungary, but I really don’t even know them and I never met them. Again, my deepest sympathy!

Hoping For: I know you’re having your ups and downs – this is normal. I think you said your D-Day was in Dec. 05 – am I correct? That’s only about 5 months ago. My D-Day was 6/10/05 – I remember so well, because that’s my husband’s brother’s birthday. But, anyway 6 months later, I was still doing the same thing as you, one day ok – the next day, depressed, crying, arguing, angry, my emotions are mixed up. So, I’m ahead of you by 5 months. It takes a long time, more for other people.

Normal is what’s normal for you. But, I think of these guys, just want to forget about their affairs and make believe it never happened. I think it’s just easier for them to return back to normal and act like nothing happened – and leave us wondering how can they do this? Don’t forget you didn’t cheat on them – they did – they may be hurt, but it’s not the same hurt as you have.

TO ALL: I can’t believe I’m talking about this today when they’re supposed to have that immigrant march today – I just couldn’t write on the weekend.

I have to respond to the post on immigrants and people being prejudice. As you guys know, I was not born here – but I’m a citizen and I love America – I wouldn’t live anywhere else in the world. Even though I was small, I saw what war was like and what poverty was. Everyone in this country has some other origin, unless you are an American Indian. All our parents, grandparents, etc. came to this country and learned the English language, worked hard and learned to live the American way. We are all immigrants in a sense. No one should look down upon someone because they are different –we are all the same, regardless of our race, religion or nationality. Because some people have the opportunity to have more than others, they forget where they originally came from and stick their noses up in the air at other people.

But, I do believe if you want to live in this country – you should do it legally. Then you have every right to be in this wonderful country. No one should be told they can’t live here. Our parents and grandparents did it – so can they.

One thing I am so adamant about too, is that now days, people do not have to learn English in school; you can take your citizenship and driving test without knowing one word of English. I think this is the stupidest thing I ever heard of. They teach kids in school in Spanish, not English so they can learn. Why aren’t they taught in English – so they can learn English? Do you realize they have driver’s tests in 20 languages? I think it should be mandatory to be able to speak English in order to get important documents.

When we came to this country – we came with no money – only the clothes on our back – but we came legally. We came under the government’s political asylum policy. I didn’t speak a word of English neither did my mom or dad. They went to work and learned – maybe not perfect – but they did. I went to school learned English and went on thru high school and some college – I luckily don’t have any accent and speak perfect (sometimes not) English.

Ok, don’t want to get too serious……it’s just that I feel so strongly on this.

My husband and I worked on the yard all weekend. Last year I couldn’t do everything by myself – so we a lot to do this spring. Last year my husband was too busy “working overtime” – so I had to do everything. Spring has some bad memories for me.

Our favorite show is “Desperate Housewives” – my husband and I watch it every Sunday. We have to think about this series about 1 woman and 3 guys…..hmmmmm.. who’d we get as the actors? I can see me and let’s see, George Clooney, Brad Pitt and Kurt Russell. Those were the only guys I could think of at the moment. A lit bit of levity in the morning!!! Ha. Ha.

Hope all is well.

Hi everyone,

Hope you all had a good weekend. Mine was okay. My H is going through so much pain and anguish. He hates himself and everything he has become==he says he became everything that he never wanted to be...he is so sorry for all the pain he has caused me and said there is nothing he likes about himself.

Hopingfor, this may be how your H is feeling too. He can't bear to see the pain he has caused, and doesn't understand how I can love him still after all of this. He doesn't feel worthy of being loved right now. I told him that I still see the good in him, when he is with the kids, and that I still love him. He has told me over and over that if I left him, he would understand, that I have every right to leave him, but that is his biggest fear, that I will leave him.

Anyway I have ALOT of work to do and have to get to it. I hope you all had a nice weekend.

HF, get those books! Do a search on your library's website to order them if you can't buy them now. They really will help you in your day to day dealing with it all...I promise.

Will be back later !

Hi F&L,

You and I were posting at the same time...

I agree with what you said about teaching the kids English and everything else. Many people work hard and are legal immigrants. Everyone deserves a chance. Isn't it better to have children growing up and learning English in schools, instead of living here their whole lives and not learning English?

Anyway, I don't watch Desp. Housewives, although I would probably like it. I used to love Brad Pitt, until the whole thing w/ Angelina came out. He is still very handsome, but I don't like him anymore. That whole affair soured me on him for good. I can't stand to see the tabloids with them on the cover. I really feel for Jennifer Aniston in this situation.

But George Clooney has always been a favorite of mine...Who would be the actress??

MF,

Angelina falls for every married guy she does a movie with - she's typical - I hate to say. She's so spaced out - bi-sexual, kisses her brother on the lips, carried a vile of blood around her neck, used to cut herself up. I know she does things for the unfortunate, but she's too weird for me. They won't last anyway. Yes, I too felt sorry for Jennifer Aniston - her situation was out in the open - she was hounded relentlessly.

Hey, I could learn to act!!! Ha, Ha.

Have a great day all.

Hi F&L,

You are right about Angelina...I think they are on the rocks now...what a surprise, huh??!

I think you should propose this to one of the networks as a reality show. Then, you could play yourself, not too hard to do!

MF,

Hey that's a good idea. You know maybe you guys could all play the neighboring wives - kind of like a "Wysteria Lane" type situation - then we could get everyone in the picture. CSJ could be the top notch woman lawyer on the block, Hoping For could be the SAHM with the "young gardner" - you could be the working executive mom with the 2 jobs, at work and at home. I'm basing these characters on "Desperate Housewives".

You should watch "Desperate Housewives" - we love it.

COOL!

Hey, that sounds good to me...Maybe you could change the 'young gardener' to the young plumber---you know the one you always write about....:)

He'll bring the ratings up!!

Hi ladies,

I'm back again. Eating my lunch at my desk and checking in here.

I hope you are all having a good day. My H seems to be getting out of his depression a little bit. He sounded better on the phone just now than he did this morning. I told him that I couldn't imagine how much pain he must be in right now. I truly can't. Sadandconfused, I hope you can enlighten all of us on how you can do this to your spouse without considering the consequences of your actions. I know that my H regrets his A now, but at the time, he was living on the edge. I, like CSJ, wonder if he couldn't talk to me because he was guilty and afraid I would leave, or if he was just so in love/caught up with OW that he just left me on the sidelines. I know he says he didn't love her, but I know he had feelings for her, he has said so himself. I wonder if there is more than what he is letting on, because of how the A played out....Of course now he can't imagine being in love w/ her, but what about at the time it was going on...how do you keep an A going for 9 mos, a year, without there being something there besides just sex?

Well, just wanted to check in for a bit..will be back later.

Hey girls
I was just thinking about conequences today. You know that saying "its easier to ask for forgiveness than permission". I really feel this is my H. Remember a week or so ago when he wanted to go out and I didnt want him to go b/c I was upset. Well he went I cried...well sobbed. He said Ill make it up to you but thats the thing...some things you cant make up for you know.

That night he left is really telling of who he is for me. He had his A during the most difficult time in our lives. Kind of like when the going gets rough the rough leave. This has really been bothering me lately. He says I am so sorry for everything but is he if I ask him to stay home one night and he cant? Is this just a power struggle on my part? I really needed him and he left. Its a minor offense in the scheme of things its what it means. How am I ever going to forgive him for the BIG ONE if he keeps messing up with me? Ugh!

I agree with you Mama we have a lot to learna nd take from S&C I hope she writes back. I want to believe he was just caught up and honestly the sex part of the A doesnt bother me like ti did in the beginning its the lies and how little I meant to him that he could do such a thing. I want to believe it had nothing ot do with me but it doesnt make sense. I am so afraid I will never get over this!

Mama glad your H is feeling a little better.

Hey so the new celebrity scandal is Denise Richards stole her best friend Heather Locklears H Richie Sambora away. Thats bad!!! Theres another thread on here about a woman whose H cheated with ther best friend. Its a horrible story the 2 couple were best friends she loves her kids very very sad for everyone involved. I was thinking today how nice it would be to be 20 again and innocent of all this pain we would cause each other in our marriages.

Well hope you all have a great day!
HF

Hello everyone--

I had a long morning and am just checking in here, and you all are probably just checking out for the day. So I've already missed the Brad and Angelina discussion!

I used to love Brad also--I had a huge poster of him in his "Legends of the Fall" role in my single days-wow was he something in that? But I have also lost all respect for him. And for Angelina, too. I was thinking all of her humanitarian work was very selfless--and to be fair, I'm sure she does have some good qualities. She has done some very good things. But she is one messed-up lady. It won't take long for that relationship to loose its luster.

F&L--I had noted the immigrants issue in the news today, also, and thought how ironic it was that we had all been discussing it. It does irritate me that so much is done to cater to foreign language speakers. For example, I have to call the jail sometimes, and when the machine answers, it begins with this long, drawn out message in SPANISH. You have to listen to the whole thing, and then at the end, it says "to hear this message in English, press 1." What the . . . ? I think everyone should be treated with dignity, but we live in America, and when I call a government office and have to get stuck with a recording, at the very least it should be a recording in English. I do hope that there can be some sort of middle-ground with the whole immigration issue. I mean, I see the problem with the illegals. I have to admit, many of the drug charges (I imagine nation-wide, not just here) are against illegals who are importing heroin and methamphetamine. There is obviously a real problem. But not all illegals are like that--many are honestly seeking that "American Dream" that my grandparents were looking for. (Though as you point out, F&L, in this example, the immigrants came in legally.) I think it would be nice to grant amensty for some of these folks, who are hard-working and who have been here for a while, trying to contribute. Anyway, there's my soapbox for the day.

Does anyone watch "Grey's Anatomy?" I got hooked on it, and it even incorporates some MB principles in it, so I count it as therapy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I like that Meredith got dumped for the wife, even though she's the main character. I am glad that they depict a marriage, hurt by an A, trying to make it. And I like that they depict the WW as someone who is human, but likable--like my poor FWH. Last night I was just cheering when the FWW and the BH jumped into the shower for some hot SF. Go for it you guys!

My H and I are currently planning a road trip to New Mexico for about a week, so I am tryin to get geared up for some hot SF of my own. In one of the MB books, I think it was HN/HN, it was recommended to have some "everyday" sleepwear that was really attractive, since the whole "attractive spouse" and "SF" is such a big deal to the guys. So I think I may do a little internet shopping on Victoria's Secret or something, to find something new. I try so hard to get in the mood, but am just not. I start to cry, actually, when I even think about having SF. You guys are going to really dress me down for this, but we still haven't. My H has made overatures several times, and I just can't bring myself.

I have this really painful memory, towards the end of his A. I had tried so many things to light a spark with my H, but he seemed so distant. So I tried a trick from early in our M. We have a few decorative candles in our bedroom, and if one of us was in the mood, we would light them. At some point we stopped this little formality, I don't really remember when. But I lit the candles and changed into "something more comfortable" (that wasn't really that comfy at all, actually), and waited for him to come to bed. It was really late when he finally came down. He blew out the candles and went into the bathroom, closing the door without a word. I just started sobbing, I can't believe how much this hurt. And it all comes back to me, everytime he starts to try and initiate anything now. He held me in bed that night, just repeating "I'm sorry, I'm sorry." But I can't erase the pain of that night. But maybe if I buy myself a new nighty, and look at this trip as a second honeymoon or something, I can make myself "get back in the saddle." I hope so.

Anyway, I hope you all had a good weeked. Ours was nice--spent a lot of time at the park with the girls. We went down the "scary" slide about 100 times. No matter how tricky life becomes, my kids save me.

I will check back with you all later!

-C.

CSJ-
When you say havent yet do you mean since dday?

Hey HF--

I think we were posting at the same time. I did see the Heather/Denise thing, and it made me feel so sad. Denise just had their 2d child, too! And Heather is every man's "dream woman" isn't she? I guess that just shows all of us that an A doesn't necessarily have anything to do with looks, or common sense.

The thing about your H taking off that evening when you needed him sounded soooo similar to something that my H did for me, not long after D-Day. He got some wild idea that he wanted to go see "Brokeback Mountain"--I think mostly because it was rather contraversial out here (a "gay" love affair--and this is a very conservative community) and a few theaters wouldn't show it. He started out trying to get a group of his guy friends to go see it together, and they wouldn't hear of it (a group of men together, seeing a movie about gay men . . .honestly), so then he decided to go by himself. He half-way invited me at one point, but I told him I had absolutely no interest in seeing it because it was about an ADULTEROUS AFFAIR and I couldn't handle seeing that. So he went by himself, and even left early enough to go out to eat dinner by himself. I was furious--he had zero trust with me anyway, and it was just so insensitive to leave me at home with the kids while he went out to do what he wanted--just like he did the whole time he was cheating on me. But I didn't LB or anything--I just told him (with a few tears in my eyes) "Okay, you go--but you owe me a lot of date nights--you know?" He acknowledged that he did, and left.

After that night, he made a complete 180 turn in his efforts to rebuild the M. I think, up until then, he was just refusing to admit to himself that he had caused so much damage. He'd had a whole year to be totally selfish, and why should he stop now? But something about totally abandoning me that night, I think made him realize how far he had gone from being the "good guy."

Maybe your H is still in that very selfish place. He needs something to make him recognize that this behavior continues to hurt you. Is there some, gentle way you could bring this up with him? I like the way that ARK spoke of this in her post about "Betrayed Spouses . . . Be Still." She talked about "planting a seed" with our WH's--some well-placed words that cause our H's to think, and then nurturing those seeds so that they grow. Maybe you could tell him that you understand that he feels "condemned" when you bring up issues about the A--but that when he disregards your feelings, it is a terrible trigger for you, because that is how you felt during the A.

I really think that allowing yourself to participate in an A puts you in a terrible, altered state of mind. They have been so selfish, that it is hard to get out of those habits. I think that reading SAA would be very good for him, because it would help him to see things from your point of view, and to recognize some steps he can take to start working on recovery. He really needs to grasp that concept--for your sake.

God bless,
-C.

HF--

You beat me posting again!

Yes--since before DDay was the last time.

csj
I guess great minds post at the same time!

First I dont have any advise for you about the SF except to just do it. I can tell you my story that when I first found out I thought I would never let him touch me again ever! That lasted 2 days...I was really playing hard to get huh? I think that for me it was almost a relief see I thought that he and I were just growing apart when the truth was it was his guilt and fear of losing methat prevented us from remaining close. Now 4 months later we have the sex life of newlyweds. It makes me feel closer to him and wanted and needed.

Thats not to say that there have not been times during that my mind has wandered to what he did with her but I push that out of my head as quickly as I can. There was a time period maybe 2 months from dday where every time it was over I would cry and I dont really know why. 6 months is a long time. Why have you not done it? Do you feel disgust? Sadness? Fear? Need to punish him (big for me)? Maybe if you figure out what it is thats holding you back it will be easier for everyone to giveyou advise.

I wish you the best with this I think it will help in your recovery in feeling close to your H. Maybe you should do something for yourself go get your hair and makeup done naild too and stop at Victorias Secret and just feel good about yourself that always helps me.

Secondly on my situation. My H has always been selfish a good good man but very self centered. His mommy always told him he was special you know. Always gets the best of everything. I will be home with an on sale lean cuisine while he is out at the best steak house in town. Not to say that he doesnt include me in his fun but he takes care of himself and usually first.

I am so afraid that with what he did leaving me that night it proves that he has not learned anything and will go back to his old ways. I wonder if presented with the same situation again with someone falling all over him would he make the right decision for us or himself. He is sorry and disgusted by what he did to us and me. But he is also sorry for leaving the other night when he knew I was upset. I just feel like there are no consequnces for him so he keeps doing his thing. He says I am giving him no wiggle room to make any kind of mistake.

We were watching the Sopranos last night (again) and I said I am alll set with this episode (Tony cheating on Carmela again) and he said well Carmela takes it and I thought well what did I do? I didnt kick him out he has been having more and better sex than we have had for years so he need s to listen to me cry and he has to talk about IT which he hates to do but he leaves and works all day goes out travels its out of his head now.

I guess what bothers me the most is that he knows when he is doing something hurtful or wrong and he does it anyway.

Hope this post makes sense I feel lkie I have been all over the place! Hope veryone had a good night!
HF

Hi Everybody,

Just a couple of things:

MF....My husband says the same thing that he wasn't in love or involved with the OW - but on the other hand he says he would never just be with a woman for sex. He was going over her house and talking to her kids - looking and giving advice to the youngest on he report card - while his daughter's stood on the counter for several days before I told him - shouldn't you look at your daughter's report card? They all had to be involved emotionally to some degree with the OW or they wouldn't go to such lengths to be with them. I think they're just saying this to spare our feelings - yeah! - like it makes us feel any better!

Hoping For: My husband was the same way in the beginning, even for several months after D-Day. He still acted like he didn't care about my feelings - the A was over - why was I acting so emotional? He thought once it was over - I should just go back to normal and stop carrying on about it. He would try to be nice on one hand - then act like he had no regard for hurting me so, on the other hand. For the life of him - he just couldn't understand why I couldn't get over it. He thought I was being dramatic, standing on the "soap box" and whining. So, you see I think they are all the same. But, it will get better - they will come to their senses at some point. Keep you chin up.

CSJ: I watched "Gey's Anatomy" when the nurse had her hands on the bomb inside the guys body - haven't watched is since. My husband watches it sometime - he says everyone is going out with everyone on the show - sounds like where he used to work. What's in New Mexico? It's great you guys are getting away - that will be good for the two of you. I understand what you're saying about them not doing things while they were having their affairs.

When my husband was doing his "thing" I would sit and watch TV and he would sit on the other couch. He would bring a pile of papers and shuffle them around - or read his career books, making like he was doing work. I would get tired and say I'm going to bed - he would say I'm just wrapping things up - I'll be to bed in a little while. I knew all he was doing was avoiding me. He would come to bed and just go to sleep.

Sometimes he would stay in his office for most of the night - also shuffling papers around and say the same thing. When he wasn't shuffling papers, he would start an argument with me, on something stupid, so he would be mad and still not come to bed at the same time as me. He would deliberately avoid me. This went on for months - I didn't know what the heck was happening.

I hope Sad and Confused comes on here also. I'd love to know what makes these people tick. Do you think we scared her off? I may have sounded a little angry???? Didn't really mean to.

I know you ladies find it hard to watch movies that have adultery in it - I was the same way in the beginning. I just couldn't watch them - made me remember and get hurt and angry. This will pass in time.

I don't know if you guys ever watched the movie "Unfaithful" with Diane Lane, Richard Gere and this cute Spanish actor. An excellent movie - very intense! Diane Lane has the affair. We watch this way before D-Day. I wonder if he got some tips from the movie - now that I think of it - hmmmmm. Believe it or not, my husband watched a lot of "Lifetime" movies on tv - they're always cheating on those movies. He was always watching them right around the time he was doing his "thing". I would ask, "why are you always watching those silly movies on Lifetime - all they do is cheat on each other?" After D-Day, I realized why he was watching them. I hated watching that channel because I knew he got some tips from watching them.

Hi ladies,

Wow, I am just catching up on all the posts...No time to repond right now...will have to do it offline and copy it on here later...

Hope you are all having a good day!

Mama

Hi girls
Yes I heard today that Denise Richards says Heather was dating David Spade before the break up. I dont understand that hes..well...not my type but the girls LOVE him!

Just had a talk with H about my inability/refusal to move on. He thinks I am making us both suffer for no reason. Cracks me up b/c we suffered for years because ofhis guilt. I dont know I am so sick of talking about the A. I askedhim if he would have done 2 weeks ago differently now that he knows how much it hurt me. He said yes then probably said he was burnt out and needed to get away. I may cry alot but I stick things out. I would never walk away if he needed me but I guess we are more diffent thatn I thought we were. Doesnt make him bad just differnt I guess.

Hope all is well!
HF

Hi ladies,

David Spade,huh? Okay, he's funny but not my type either. I'd take Bon Jovi over Richie Sambora any day also. He is a cutie...now that I read that he is a faithful Husband, I like him even more!

Brad Pitt in the Legend of the Falls (Tristan)--yes, he was at his prime then...good movie!

HF, I think this is a guy thing. I'm going through the same thing with my H, and have for years. His A was all about escaping from reality--the kids, the bills, the stress, the chores. He says it was stress at work, stress at home...then it became stress w/ OW so he had no peace. He can't take it...that is obvious. But he feels like he can up and go out whenever he wants, without consideration for me. So I know what you are going through. I guess I take it all upon myself and am so ingrained into doing it all (housework, childcare, etc) that he has gotten used to not being held responsible for it. Thus, he is free to go.
He feels like I have it all under control so I don't need him. But I need him/want him to "help" with running the house and the kids.

more later.

Mama
I am ordering my books and was wondering do you think I should order HN/HN for parents or the regular one? I am ordering SAA too. Thanks <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
HF

Hi,


Like I told you guys before, things get shifted around to be our fault. We are not recovering because we can't forget about their affairs - we are the ones making the marriage suffer - we are the ones that can't get over it - they have. All they're doing is making believe it didn't happen. When we tell them we are still hurt, can't still understand why they act like they do/did - how sometimes they just think of themselves - we get accused of not moving on.

MF.....I did the same for years - did everything by myself - worked, household chores, taking care of the kids, yardwork, everything I could think of.....so my husband would think I was the best wife. Maybe if I would have treated him like crap - he would have appreciated me more. I'm always telling him I need help - he just ignores what I say and says, Yes, Yes, Yes wife - figures I'll eventually do it by myself anyway. He also thinks I have everything under control - so why bother?

Oh well, talk to you girls later,

Hello ladies!

Jon Bon Jovi!!!!!! How lucky are you, F&L? I love him more now than I did in High School. I think he is the most adorable thing ever. Why can't I have any brushes with fame like that? I met James Earl Jones once and got his autograph, does that count? And Steve Young (former QB for the San Fran 49ers) was in law school with me--sat just a few chairs over, and we talked a few times. Nice guy, although I'm sure he would never remember me. He played FB during the season, and would just go to classes winter semester when the season was finished, so it took him 6 years to finish!

HF--I think what's been holding me back from the SF thing is purely emotional. It's actually been much longer than 6 months--during my H's year-long A we had SF 2 times!!!!!! I was just crazy/worried about it and could never get a straight answer about the problem. I had gently suggested a few times he see a doctor, thinking it was an ED problem. But then to discover it was an A . . . On of Dr. Harley's articles on thes site mentioned that many man "find themselves unable to have sex with their spouse during and Affair." But didn't really elaborate on why. That's why I asked S&C about whether she avoided her spouse during her A. I don't know if he shut me out due to guilt, or if he was so infatuated with her that he viewed sex with me as "cheating" on her. I torture myself with that thought sometimes.

And my mind goes right back to that experience I described to you whenever my H makes overatures now. I just feel frozen inside. I think, somehow, I am trying to protect myself--that if I never am intimate with him again, he can't hurt me again.

But I know I need to move on somehow, so I am really hoping this trip can be like a second honeymoon, and we can get a fresh start of sorts. We had always talked of spending a little time in Durango, CO (it is supposed to be very scenic there), so we are driving there first, and then on to Santa Fe for a few days of sightseeing, and then on to Los Cruces NM, where my H's brother, wife, and kids live. We'll visit with them for a few days and then drive home. My H is so proud of himself that he planned the whole thing with no prompting. He showed me the internet sights for the hotels to show me how elegant they were--he's really trying to impress me. You'd almost think we were dating again!

Anyhow--I've got a meeting and must go. I'll check back later!

-C.

Hi,

Will try to respond to everyone's comments...

CSJ,
Grey's Anatomy - don't watch it. Glad that the H is back with the W though. I had heard that there is alot of infidelity on that show through this board. I don't watch much tv , except for kids' shows (I laughed when you asked how I could stand Sponge Bob last week)...I really can't , but I tolerate it...If you get past the stupidity of it all, and stop asking logical questions, it can be entertaining..:)

I understand the pain and hurt you are feeling about SF...I really do....BUT you have to gear yourself up for this and JUST DO IT... When is this trip to NM? Unless it is in the next couple of weeks, I don't think you should wait until then to initiate this on your own...Go to Victoria's Secret, get a manicure (and pedicure, since you said you love those), put the kids to bed early and get busy..Don't rush it, make sure you have time and no distractions. Relax, have a glass of wine, whatever. It has been way too long... Like HF also said, it is hard, but it is worth it.. I also said I had no interest in SF at first, but that changed. It will help you to feel that you are desired by your H--that he finds you attractive. I told my H how hard it was for me the first few times and he said he knew. Your H knows this too, that is why he is not pushing you on this. He understands how hard it is for you. I found it very hard to let go and just enjoy it, without thinking of OW the first few times. Sometimes I still have to put her out of my memory. For me this is tough because my mind races. During his A, we had only quickies (for him) and bj's (obviously for him). A couple months into the A, he came home and told me that some women at work told him that pregnant women may not want to have sex so he would understand if I didn't want to. (What a nice guy, huh. And how nice of the OW to put this thought into his head!). Never mind that he was never home, or when he was, he was asleep, so there was no SF. I can remember only a few times during the A that we actually had some SF that was good for me...I know how much you are hurting, CSJ...I can think of so many times that I lay in bed awake while he slept...or he would go out when I was getting ready to go to bed...If I had done what you had done with the candles, I know my H would have done the same thing...

This is one way that your H can show his love for you, that only he can do. You need to open yourself up to him in this way, you really do. My H told me that he thought I didn't like sex because I didn't initiate, would push him away sometimes when I was tired, or mad. I realized that I was insecure about sex--not sure of myself, what would he think of me if I am horny, etc. I let my inhibitions about my body and my anger about him not being home prevent me from having SF with him,. So much so, that he had an A because he didn't want to be rejected anymore. I realized that what I had been doing (or not doing) led to the worst thing that had ever happened to me, so obviously I was doing something wrong. So I tried to become more open and loving to him. As a result, after this, he said that we were having more and better sex than he had ever imagined. You need to show your H that sex with you is not just sex. You are making love on a level that you have not reached before==because of all the hurt and pain, because of the deep love and emotions that you feel for each other. This is your goal--to truly show him how much you love him, and he can show you how much he loves you. You want him to understand that sex without love is nothing compared to the sex that he will get with you...Believe me, you will feel better and more loved.

We are not in our honeymoon period anymore, but that is because of the legal issues...We were really hot & heavy for a few mos though. It helped me because I really felt disconnected from him if we hadn't done it in a few days...and that was new to me...to actually miss sex, and be craving it in only a few days....This is how we were able to recover and to communicate...if you are communicating in bed, your communication outside the bedroom will also improve, I guarantee it!! You would be surprised at the difference. I was guilty of wearing old pjs to bed, no romance...I bet if you lit those candles now, you would get an entirely different reaction!

As far as Brokeback Mountain goes, I didn't see it. But maybe watching it by himself gave your H a different perspective on the A.

It sounds like our Hs are continuing to act in that selfish mode they did during the A sometimes....I don't know how to change this except to maybe change your reaction to it. Although I am as guilty of this as anyone as far as LBing about this.

F&L, My H says that he was ONLY with OW for the sex...that it became convenient because she lived near work, and he basically used her to have sex and then sleep at her place. He says that he only met her child a couple times. But, he did help her to get a new apartment (why, I wonder...was this a plan to have a little love nest. The new apt is farther away from work, but closer to our house...still 30 min away...Hmmmm...he will not admit that this was to be for THEM, but I wonder...).

Well, I was going to end, but see a couple new posts.

HF, Get the HNHN regular (not for parents). I read both, but the regular one goes into more details and was more helpful to me. The HNHN for parents talks more about how to fit it all in and make your M a priority over the kids. This is a big point for Dr. Harley. That child-centered Ms are more susceptible to affairs....I would read the one for parents too, but read the regular one first.

F&L, My H's father always told him that I was a good girl and to treat me well. He is very disappointed in my H for this whole thing, although what can he say? He did the same to my H's mother...

During the A, my H would come home and tell me that I didn't know how close a divorce we were, that the only thing keeping us together was the kids, and all kinds of stuff like this. Really hurtful...of course I thought it was all talk but now I don't know if he really meant it (this was in the early days of the A)...

Well, that's if for now...

CSJ,

That is great about the trip to NM...I missed your post while I was writing mine.

After DDAy, I asked my H how he would feel if the tables were turned. How he would be able to deal w/ knowing that I had slept w/ another man many many times...he said that he wouldn't be able to think of it. But he would try to make me forget about the OM by giving me the best sex I ever had...

Just a thought from the opposite sex...I tried turning it around on him and while I don't know if it was the best ever for him, it was for me...Don't torture yourself with thoughts of what it was like for them. Make it all about you and your H...Make him forget about her...

CSJ,

Another thing that I wanted to point out...I was also big on withholding sex for punishment (like HF mentioned too). This came back to haunt me when I found out about his A...It was a vicious cycle right out of SAA. He withdrew emotionally from me and I withdrew from him physically. After Dday, when I began to approach him physically, he began to approach me emotionally.

I know that you can do this. It is your fear that is paralyzing you now...Fear of the pain and hurt. Fear of rejection...Fear of the mental pictures in your head...fear of comparisons to OW...but what do you have to lose now? He has already had an A....Like I said, in my case, the worst has already happened...do I want to risk losing him again if I keep acting the same way (not having SF)...? Think about this...I read on MB months ago that men do not compare women during SF. This was written by a man. He said that it is the woman at the moment that turns them on, that they are thinking about. Your H loves you and wants to have SF with you. You know this because he has approached you for it.

Have you talked about this with him, as to why you have not been able to have SF with him?

Well, I have to go but will be back in the morning. Have a good night everyone!

Hi Ladies,

It's so funny, we are so alike in so many ways. Before all this my husband never could keep his hands off me. Although after many years of being together he was a "little quick on the draw", but I didnt care - I knew he loved me.

But, then when he was having his fling - things started changing - SF was less and less and when we did have it - I felt as though he was struggling to finish - almost like he was forcing himself. This certainly didn't make me feel good.

Once D-day passed, I was the same way, when we would have SF - I would lay there sometimes and think - did he do the same thing to her - what did she do to him - was he thinking of her when he was doing me? I needed him so much - at times the SF was so intense - we were almost animalistic - other times I couldn't even do anything - I would start crying. My husband would get angry at me - and tell me I got to stop this.

But, MamaFish has it right - you have to communicate in the bedroom - because if you don't - they'll go elsewhere.

Okay, my new goal is to get someone else hooked on "Grey's Anatomy." I don't know if it's that I think Patrick Dempsy is so darn cute or what, but I really love that show! Seriously, I think one of the major appeals to me is that it is really about MB concepts. A few episodes ago the BS (husband) even went to his FWW and told her that he understood that he had withdrawn from her prior to her A and that he was partially responsible for what had happened. It's really uplifting to me to watch those characters work on their M.

And I do agree with MF, that the selfish mode continues for our H's. I think that the selfishness was an underlying factor for my H from the very begining--and probably for most WS's. Or maybe stubborness would be a better term than selfishness in our case. I don't think my H really is intending to disregard everyone else's needs, he can actually be a very giving person. It's more about him doing things in his own way, you know?

There are some things that are just not negotiable to him. He wants to have his "me" time, where he can go to the gym or have a visit with his guy friends, and it doesn't seem to register to him that he is taking that luxury at my expense. For example, during his A he kind-of barked at me once about "why don't you ever go to the gym?" (I think this was a pathetic attempt to ease his guilt--if I abandoned the family for an hour or so a day, then maybe he wouldn't feel so badly about cheating on me.) I just responded that it would be nice, but when exactly would I do that? I get home from work a little after 6pm generally, and then he was out the door to the "gym." Meanwhile, I'm getting kids fed and to bed--a routine that keeps me busy until 8:30-9:00 pm. And at 9:30-10:00 I go to bed so I can be up at 5:30 and start the whole mess over again. So when exactly is my "me" time? He couldn't answer that question. But it was the last time he told me to go to the gym.

We are working out some of the problems out with his stubborness, but it is not an issue that is going to be put to rest easily.

Anyhow, I better get back to work. I hope you all have a great evening, and I'll check in again later!

-C.

And I missed the last few posts while I was writing my last.

I have thought a lot about my motivations in not having SF, because I really don't want it to be a punishment thing. I agree with you about the cycle it initiates. And I think I am being honest with myself to say that I am really not trying to punish him. It just hurts so much. I cry every time I even think about it--my secretary walked in after I posted before today and got all worried about me: "Have you been crying? Are you okay?"

And knowing now that SF is one of his EN's, I am concerned about him looking elsewhere. But then part of me says, "so what?" Because I already told him that he was getting only one chance--a second affair and I'm done. If he can't be patient with me while I put myself back together from what he has done, then I will leave. But you're right--I don't want to drive him away. Thus far he has been very patient with me, and I am grateful to him for that. And I do think he owes me that, all things considered. I recognize this is the main thing I need to work on right now--it just hurts me so much I cannot say.

But thanks for all of your kind words and support. It helps immensely.

And how fun, F&L, to have met so many interesting people! You must have hundreds of interesting stories! And that would be something to meet Pope John Paul--I have such respect for him. So sad when he died.

But I've got to run and pick up my girls, so I will check back in the morning!

-C.

CSJ:

My biggest problem also is my husband is so stubborn - I guess he's like his dad. I'm stubborn also, but I usually give in.

I like Patrick Dempsey too. Wasn't he the pizza boy in that movie from the 80's - where he was "servicing" the rich older women (forgot the name of the movie)?

Yeah, my husband used to tell me to join a gym to get rid of my "pooch" on my stomach when I was working - like I had some spare time. I also used to be so tired by 8-9:00, I'd sit down to watch a little TV and I would fall asleep sitting up. He used to tell me all I do is sleep - what!!! I worked full time, came home, cooked, cleaned, took care of homework, girls, etc. - he couldn't understand why I was so tired. He would come home, watch TV-while I was cooking, eat, go back and sit down-while I cleaned up, watch more TV or play video games for about 1 hr. or more. A little different I think. Now I don't have a job, I just do everything around the house, all the yard work, any wallpapering, painting, cleaning, laundry, cooking, minor repairs, all pool maintenance, cut the girls hair, visit my dad, sew the drapes, shampoo the carpets.....then I've got to be ready at night for SF. I sometimes I feel like I'm a handyman/maid/chef/mistress not a wife.

All these guys can be giving, thoughtful and supporting, but sometimes they just don't think about what they are doing. And yes, they all want to do things their way, especially my husband.

I can understand your feelings about SF. After D-day I had a rough time also. Almost every time it came to SF - I thought about the two of them together - I was so angry and disgusted - it was so hard to concentrate on what I was doing. All I kept picturing was them doing the same thing. Sometimes he would see the look on my face and knew what I was thinking and he stopped what he was doing. Sometimes I would cry right in the middle - it was very difficult for me. Other times I just wanted him so bad. I can still picture the two of them together - it got permanently imprinted in my mind. I'll always remember her ugly face and big nose. Just the thought of him kissing her, YUK!!! Gross!!! We all have these thoughts - you are not alone.

Well, got to go. Talk to you all later.

Hi ladies,

Glad to see everyone is doing well.

CSJ, We are with you in spirit re the SF thing. It is a struggle to get through it in the beginning. In my case, my H has done some 'new' things--and of course I know where he got the ideas from...I don't ask...he knows that I know...I just try to enjoy it and put her out of my mind as best as possible. I try to think that I am the one that he chose, I am with him now, not her. It will get easier...It's good that you are planning a trip so that will allow you some more freedom to be sexy with him. Just know that you are not alone in this. We have all been there...

Yes, men are stubborn and selfish...no getting around that...CSJ, my H never told me to go to the gym, but he would tell me, I'm not stopping you from going out...You can go out if you want....Well, first of all, who am I going to go out with? I don't have any real close friends here. One Friday night last spring, my home daycare was having a pizza party--she does this every once in a while and the kids can stay and have a party and we pick them up around 9. So I had from 5 - 9 pm free to do whatever I wanted. My H of course, had to go to work that night so he couldn't do anything with me...I had no idea what to do with myself==how pathetic is that? I didn't want to go to the movies by myself...so I ended up going shopping in a town that I don't usually get over to==lots of stores...I tried on bras...I ate dinner at Wendys...real exciting, right? So, when I got home w/ the kids and my H was getting ready for work, he asked what I did and I told him. He had the nerve to question this, and ask if I was seeing someone. He did this from time to time during his A. He has always said, just tell me if you are attracted to someone else...I always say, where would I meet anyone? I don't go anywhere!! He did this to me last night. He is still depressed, in this zone that I can't reach him in. So I tell him how I have to go to dinner at my boss's house one night next week, with the rest of the Sales dept. He says, are you cheating on me? Have you found someone else? I said no. He said, you have every reason to do it, you know? I said, I know I have every reason in the world to do it, but I won't. I wouldn't want you to go through that pain. You are going through enough now and so am I...He didn't say anything else. What could he say??

F&L, Your fight about the apple sounds like something we would argue about...stupid little things bother my H...he will argue that his way is the right way...But then he does something BIG and it's no big deal..

F&L and CSJ, My H is the same way...he will sit and watch tv while I am on my feet all night long...I am lucky to sit down and eat sometimes...Same thing in the morning...I am running around to get the kids ready, etc and he will just sit there, maybe hold the baby, but does he think to get her dressed, no? On his days off last year, he would get up w/ us early and then say he was going to the gym. He would walk out the door in the midst of all of this chaos that I was trying to get everyone ready. I would say, what's the hurry? You can't wait 15 minutes to help me get the kids in the car...Now I know the hurry was to get up to OW to meet her when she got off work. So many times this happened...

When I lived in NYC, I saw some stars too. Like F&L said, they are all over..the biggest one was my friends and I were eating in a Japanese restaurant, and Christopher Reeve was in a booth near us with a woman. This was way before his accident..It may have even been Dana Reeve.. No one went up to him,, but when they got up to leave, the whole restaurant fell silent.

I also saw Andy Warhol in Bloomingdales, Ron Howard sat behind me on the commuter train to CT (he lives in Greenwich CT), saw Rod Stewart on the street...That's all I can remember now...

When is Grey's Anatomy on? I don't get to watch many tv shows for myself...Usually the only ones I can watch are on at 10 and sometimes I'm too tired to stay up and watch them.

Have a great day ladies!

MF,

Boy, MamaFish, you sound like me and your husband sounds like mine. I'm the same way don't have any friends near by - that's cause I used to go to work and come home and go to sleep. No one around here is that friendly. All the "soccer moms kind of "click" together - I don't really know any of them. I can't really relate to them anyway - they all go to the gyms, have lunch together, get their nails/hair done, have coffee at Starbucks and gossip. I'm not into that - so I never really got to know them.

I used to go out once in a while too....to a tupperware party or somekind of stupid house part....whipeee....!

When I used to work and my husband would have a day off - he would wait for me to get home to cook dinner - he couldn't have it waiting for me on the table. Then he would still do the same thing, watch tv and play video games. Even if he was on vacation and I wasn't - I'd still have the same routine.

I tell you one thing, if we lived in the same area - I could tell you and I would have a ball.

Talk to you later.

F&L,

We sure do sound alike. I am close to a couple women here at work, but not enough to share any of this...Plus they are single, no kids, they don't live nearby...they have their own lives. At 5, they are out the door to Happy Hour, or whatever... I have a friend in town who I used to work with, and we were pregnant with our sons at the same time. Now our sons are in the same class, and in soccer together. So I talk to her at soccer. But she is one of the soccer moms in town, so our lives are really different now. She went back to work after having her son, but they gave her a lower position, and made it tough for her so she quit...She is now a SAHM, which is fine, but hard for us to get together. She has 2 kids now, and her time is with her H and kids at night and on the weekends, same as mine. She holds those kinds of parties too. I haven't even carved out time to go to any of those.

I guess you could say my life has been my kids...I know that I wouldn't have made it through without them...I would rather be with them than anyone else...But it would be nice to have a friend to go out with from time to time. It's just so hard to keep in touch w/ people these days...If I have time to myself to go shopping, I end up buying stuff for the kids, or my H, not myself...

I am on the phone at work most of the day, so the last thing I want to do when I get home is talk on the phone. So I don't talk to my long distance friends much either... I am really bad about staying in touch like that. Email is the easiest way for me.

Well, gotta get back to work. Here it is raining again. My Son was so upset that Tball was cancelled because of the rain last night. I was glad..it was so cold out...

My H trusts me, but then I think he doesn't trust me either. I know that if I were to have an A, it would probably be an EA, because he doesn't really listen to me. Conversation is not one of his Top ENs, but it is for me...At least I am not carrying around guilt for having a revenge A, or whatever you call it. I have read too much on MB to ever have an A...

My husband always trusted me completely, until he had his affair - he felt guilty about what he did, so at that time he didn't trust me - can you believe that? I guess he thought if he could do it - so can I. He even thought I might be getting together with old boyfriends The last thing on my mind at that point was to have an affair or have sex with someone.

Well, got to go back outside. It’s getting cloudy – no rain here yet.

Hi F&L,
I came back to see if you posted your story and you did not disappoint...that is quite a story...I think my H knows that I would not cheat but asks me just to make sure. I think you're right about him feeling guilty to check up on me. Maybe he knew he wasn't treating me right, was ignoring me, and figured maybe I was seeing someone else also. And of course, he couldn't tell me that he was, so that's why he would ask me.

I know what you mean about having an A being the last thing on your mind...I still feel that way. I have enough stress in my life right now. Why would I want to complicate it more? Of course, he thinks I love drama though, so I guess that's why. LOL. That is so NOT me...but whatever!

It's pouring rain out right now...I got soaked going out to get gas just now. We pay $2.99 around here. How about you guys? NJ is usually much cheaper, but then you can't have self serve there. This was self serve. I never pay for full service.

Ciao for now!

Afternoon everyone!

Thanks so much for coming to my pity party yesterday. I don't know why that is the one trigger that throws me for a loop, when I really feel like I am doing so much better with everything else. But I kept thinking about it yesterday, and was crying on and off all day. Pretty pathetic, right? But I know I need to focus on this and fix it--so I am so grateful to you all for giving me the kick in the butt I need right now.

But it does make me feel a bit silly--I mean you all have been through the very same thing, and got through it and are able to be intimate with your H's--so what is my deal, anyway? I don't know why I feel so terrified/hurt/angry/devestated/frozen on this point. But I am working on it, I promise.

So to get the ball rolling, I sneaked away for a bit this morning and got my manicure, and ordered a little PJ set from Victoria's Secret that I was looking at. And a new swimsuit so I can look cute by the pool--which is silly because I really can't sunbathe because my complextion is soooooo fair that I get sunburned even thinking about it. I really should become Muslim so I can wear a burka.

But Grey's Anatomy is on at 9pm Sunday nights (probably 10 pm eastern time), so if you get a chance to watch it, see if you like it. My whole office does, and then Monday morning we walk in the door saying, "did you see the part where . . ." My boss probably thinks we are the most ridiculous things ever. Luckily he is very patient and sort-of a fatherly-type guy to the rest of us (he is the only male--surrounded by 3 women). But he is such a work-aholic, straight-laced guy I don't think he even watches tv. We were laughing about the "soup nazi" episode of Seinfeld once and he said "What's Seinfeld?" Does this man live in a cave??? But so nice--I am very lucky to have such a kind, flexible boss.

Anyhow, I hope everyone is having a good day. I'll check back later!

-C.

F&L,

I forgot to ask...is your H a Giants or Jets fan? I'm thinking Jets because you are in NJ. My H is a Giants fan, and a Cowboys fan...

Oh, and on the trusting H thing . . .

I don't think my H has ever thought about not trusting me. He's never appeared jealous at all. Maybe it's because he knows that there is no way I could schedule in an A into my life. My primary social thing is work, which is probably a sad commentary on my life. But I get along really well with the 2 other gals in my office--we chit chat and have lunch, whatever. And when I go home I just want to be with my kids. I've been invited to those "parties" too (the new trend out here is the jewelry parties) but I have no desire to go. I just want to curl up with my girls and read stories.

I used to have a friend I would meet for a movie once in a while, and it was really nice because she has 2 little girls the same age as mine, so we would have family dinner parties, taking turns at eachother's houses, and then the adults could visit while the kids played. But my H got sort-of down on these parties during his A (surprise, surprise), and my friend got a new job with a business that requires her to travel ALOT. I would HATE that--she has to be away from her kids quite a bit. And it became so hard to find a time to meet with her. So we have fallen out of touch. So now my best girlfriend is the one I went to Vegas with--and she lives in CA so we don't get to see eachother very much. Just e-mail.

I think my focus on the kids did contribute to what happened with my H--I think he felt left out or whatever. But that whole thing seems like such a pathetic excuse. I never excluded him from being a parent--he CHOSE to go off and do his own thing. He could have been a more invovled dad if he had wanted to.

Hi C,

Good for you on the manicure and your new pjs and bathing suit...You are heading in the right direction.

As for the SF issue, there is nothing wrong with you. If my H was as patient as yours, I may have been sitting in your shoes right now....but given that his whole reason for the A was because I was not giving him enough SF, THAT became the focus for me...Since he has steadfastly stood by the story that if he had been getting enough, he wouldn't have strayed...I had to give in to it to show him and myself that I did enjoy sex and could be every bit as sexy as OW...
Don't feel silly at all...Believe me, I don't discuss sex with ANYONE, except you gals...never was the kiss and tell type...CSJ, I even started wearing Thongs after DDay...That was new for me...LOL...

I love Seinfeld but don't watch it often. But I know all the episodes...

My office likes 24...they are all wild for it...not me...not at all...no one watches Greys Anatomy here.

Jewelry parties are coming around here. I'm with you though...I'm a homebody at heart, but that doesn't mean that I don't like to go out. I don't know if my H felt left out of me doing stuff w/ the kids or not, but I agree, that was his decision. You know he didn't even go to our son's preschool graduation party because he had to work..turns out that was one of the nights they both called out of work...I used to plan to do stuff w/ the kids (go to McDonalds, the playground, ice cream place) on Friday nights to give me and the kids something to look forward to in the summertime. I HATED that he worked nights/weekends. He just took advantage of the fact that I would do this with them. It was his choice not to be home..

Oh, and I don't think focusing on the kids is a bad thing. It's just that the H tends to think he is at the bottom of the list--at least according to Harley. This is how my H felt...like I didn't have time for him...Of course I was so tired from doing all the other stuff, that I was too tired for him...

And my social life is work too... I go from work to home and back again...Work is the only place that I actually get time to myself!

Okie, I'll bite. I'm not a gal, but I wanna ask a question. In your opinions as "gals", given my current sitch, when do you YOU all think SF will become available for me? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi All,

CSJ: Good for you. It will come when you're ready. Don't be too hard on yourself. I forgot, when are you going? I get burned easily too - my family makes fun of me, that I am so pale. In the winter my kids and husband ask me,"why are you so pale"?...duh!...a have pale skin!!! In the summer I always get sunburned on my nose - I look like a drunk!

I more or less a home body too - my family is my first priority. I don't have any social life either. My husband doesn't really either. Everything is family orientated.

Drexxell....I see we have someone new...I see by your bio that D-Day was 3/29/06...wow...that's only a little over a month ago. You've got a long way to go. I also see that you cheated on her previously? Am I right? Did she stop seeing the OM? As I guess you have read, a lot depends on the person and their situation. We have all had our difficulties in this area.

My recovery was hastened because my husband worked for the OW. If you can give us some more details maybe we can help. We might gripe about men sometimes, but we have all been hurt.

Talk to you tomorrow.

Prolly easier on everyone involved to just take a look at my threads if you have the time. "I need a translator" and "Am I nuts?" I'll be happy to answer any questions after that.

Yes, I'm a FWH, but it's a little more complicated than that. I was literally a vomitas mess afterward and confessed immediately after I got home, to which she replied with her own confession. All this 10 years ago. We decided on amnesty instead of help.

As far as I know, WW has stopped seeing the other men. No, that's not a typo. I suppose I ought to mention that I'm a member of the OC club too. Just found that out less than a week after D-Day. DS6 will always be mine though. He's got my name and my name is on the birth certificate. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Who cares about blood types, right?

Drexxell,

I started reading your other threads a little and I just stopped. Your WW had 17 affairs - am I correct? Your WW has a son/daughter from an affair? There was so much to read - so I stopped -spare ribs had to be turned. You also mentioned she said she didn't love you???? Just give us a quick bio. Do you know if she stopped seeing the OM? Was this a revenge affair? If she or you had 17 affairs, I'm sorry but that's beyond me - I can't imagine anyone having that many affairs - why be married? Who is the glutten for punishment in the marriage? Just give me some details - maybe I can give you some insight.

I have to turn my own ribs in about 10 mins, but I"ll get in what I can.

Yup, I had a 20 minute stand with a co-worker. Horrid horrid experience. My admission came almost as soon as I stepped in the door. She admitted her 1st A about an hour later. We decided on amnesty instead of help. Few months later, she admitted to a second A after I questioned her because I had a feeling something wasn't right after a camping trip with co-workers.

About a month ago after the phone call, she admitted to another 17. Mostly once or twice kinda deals. Almost all involving alcohol. Couple days after that, found out DS6 isn't mine. I'm pretty sure that qualifies as a bad week. Almost immediately after she told me how many As, I was thinking sex addiction or something along those lines. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. We don't know yet.

For the last little over a year, I've been a SAHF because she's been on various TDYs and a deployment to the middle east, where the last 2 As happened. She had carried on EA with #19 since she had been home from the deployment, which was Jan 23.

I made it very clear to her that if there was contact with any of them EVER again there would be serious consequences. To my knowledge, there has been NC.

Now, why stay married? If you discovered your spouse had a substance abuse problem would you just walk away? That's kind of my take on my sitch. MC kinda thinks so too, but we haven't gone into detail about that yet.

She did say she "Loved me but wasn't in love".

Dunno if any were revenge As or not. I know that when she admitted to the 2nd one after the camping trip, there had already been at least one more. Speaking of the camping trip, she didn't even know that guys last name. And she was hammered. To this day, the smell of Hot Damn makes her violently ill.

I had a full STD panel. So far, I'm clean. Gotta go back in 6 mos for HIV and then 6 mos after that.

Glutten for punishment? If someone can prove to me that this wasn't an addiction and that it was maliscious and it'll happen again, I'll reconsider my stance.

Also, I have DS14 (from her 1st marriage) who has decided he wants me to adopt him. All these little twists. Leme know if there's more questions.

Hello ladies and gentleman

Boy I missed a lot today! I didnt have time to read everything will have to go back but CSJ I am so happy for you that you are taking steps to get your "groove" back. Thats wonderfula nd I really think it will help in you r recovery. You will feel closer to him and good about yourself once you get over the first hump...uhhh...hurdle..hehe.

Welcome Drexxel I am so sorry about your situation but really respect your decsion to love your son no matter waht. I cant imagine what that feels like as a mom of 4 I feel for you but you are really being a real DAD by sticking by him.

I am so confused by your situation. Does your MC think she has a sexual addiction? If so and I hope I dont offend you here WHY isnt she interested in sex within her marriage? Is it your relationship or is she addicted to something else? Strange men? The thrill of the unknown? being naughty or bad? Does she just have horribly low self esteem that she doesnt feel worthy of being in love?

I dont know much about SA but I have heard it is as real as drug or alcohol addiction. BY the way are you British? Sounds like an accent in there <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Anyway welcome we will all try to help with whatever we can!

Trust---isnt it funny how we project our thoughts and feelings to others? My H too would ask what do you do when I travel? I never thought to ask "WHAT DO YOU DO???". Dumb What did he think I was doing going out to dinner with strange men and getting 4 kids menus too? Ridiculous. Its just funny that how before the A he never asked me ?s like that then he did that and he was cautious about me.

Selfishness-Dont you think that having an A is the most selfish thing you could ever do. Especially if you still love your spouse. Drexxel your company excluded being theres a whole lot else going on there I think. My H has always been selfish and it ended up being so self destructive. So sad that his mother devoted her life to him and in doing so taught him to be selfish and self serving.

I hope I am smarter than that. Raising kids is getting harder and harder as they get older. I had the sex talk with my oldest son last night H was there too. He was gigling so funny then he said "so do you do that at the hospital?" cracked me up I am so mature. Anyway at the end I said just remember you only do that when you are married and in love and I could help throw a LB glare out to H...well Im not perfect!

Have a great night!
HF

HF,

Well, there was a great deal of SF in our relationship up until D-Day. Nothing since. Her choice. We were usually at it 5-7 times a week since she had been back. I'm sure her self esteem is shot to heck right now, though. She told me she can't even look at me without feeling guilt.

Nope, not British. Southern. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Drexxell,

I'm sorry but I never even met someone that cheated so many times. I feel bad for you - everyone is entitled to make a mistake once - maybe even twice, but beyond that - NO! Sexual addiction - is that an excuse to have sex with everyone and anyone you meet. I'm sorry again, I just can't see that. I realize that you love your spouse - but I just couldn't handle that. I think it's a little different when the spouse is an alcoholic. But jumping in and out of the sack with someone else - risks not only her life, but yours too. What is she thinking of? How can you love someone and do that to them – no regard for them or their feelings/well being.

You need to be commended that you accept her child from another man. Not many men could do this.

You must have more patience and understanding than I do. My husband has always been domineering, bossy and Mr. Macho, but I definitely wouldn't stay with him if he did it to me 17 times. My first 1st husband (this is my second marriage) was abusive - yes it took me a long time to leave him, but I finally got up enough nerve to do it. I can only take so much.

All of us girls, I think, have had our husbands cheat on us only one time....and we were all devastated. I can’t imagine more than once. Is your wife willing to commit to you only? Why is she doing this to you? Are you neglecting her at home? There has definitely got to be something wrong here! It’s very difficult if you are the only one working on the marriage. You have to understand, sometimes in the beginning only one person is working on the marriage.

MC is great, but if your wife only goes…..but doesn’t listen or do what is asked….it’s a waste of time.

So far as being intimate with your wife….can you talk to your wife…are you able to communicate? Can she express how she feels? Communication is the best thing in a marriage. Does she feel guilty about what she did, thus her not wanting SF?

I’ve been around a bit more than these lovely ladies on this thread, but I have never met someone who’s been around the block so many times. Does your wife want to save your marriage? My husband didn’t even like the fact that I was with other guys before he met me, over 20 yrs. ago. – can you live with the fact that your wife was with other guys during your marriage?

I am not a therapist and I don’t understand why your wife did this. The only thing I can do is help you when you need to vent. We are all in the same situation, one way or another….if I can help…I will.

We also would like to know why did you initially cheat on your wife? This would maybe help us understand from a guy’s point of view – why the cheat.

Take care…..good luck.

Hmmm I am usually good with online accents too...kidding.

Well I am sure she is feeling very low. My H really suffered from his A emotionally. He felt dirty and cheap. He felt very unworthy of me and our family. I am sure your W feels the same way.

What do you mean by "since she had been back" was she gone?

I guess the best thing you can do is ask her what she needs from you to get to a place where you can both be happy. As hard as it is for me I have to look past my own pain sometimes to realize he is so hurt by this too. DrPhil says he would rather be happy than right and I try to incorporate that into my life with H when I feel like LBing him to death.

As far as SF is concerned H and I were back at it right away...my choice but that is because I finally felt like the missing piece to the puzzle of his unhappiness (guilt)was there and I truly felt even though he had done the unimaginable and the worst thing he could have to me I felt really important to him and loved.

For women at least me romance and foreplay is all day. A phone call from work, an e card a stupid little teddy bear or rose from the grocery store. Thats what makes us feel special and wanted and really turns us on.

I hope that helps. I will be rooting for you! Good Luck.
HF

1. Dunno. She hasn't decided.
2. Dunno. She doesn't know either.
3. Dunno. I showed her HNHN and asked her to point out which ENs I was not doing well with. According to her, there aren't any.

Communication is the best thing we've got. We can talk till we're blue in the face. Only 3 real fights since D-Day.

As to why she doesn't want SF, I dunno for sure. Could have to do with guilt. She says it has to do with her not being in love with me, which certainly explains the SF 3 hours before discovery, right? And the 5-7 times a week before that? Oy vey.

According to conversation from last night with WW, finally she says she didn't feel "desired" or "cherished". I'm not claiming to be perfect, but I was dumbfounded. According to her, in the moment of the As, she felt "desired" or "cherished", which I find rather difficult to swallow if she was hammered. She followed that up with she felt guilty moments after.

I dunno if she wants to save the marriage or not. She's going to MC with me. She hasn't moved out. She said last night that her feelings haven't changed, but she has noticed the changes I've made since D-Day (that's plan A for ya). Then we have other conversations where we're talking about the future, both of us going back to school, her for her masters, me for my BA. For me, it's impossible to know.

I believe I could live with it. I don't believe she was intentionally out to hurt me. I think there's a sickness there that she needs to deal with and overcome. I believe it's my job to support my wife in her time of need.

Why did I cheat? Not really sure. Probably because she wasn't meeting my ENs in one way or another.

CSJ:

I just remembered the name of the movie Patrick Dempsey was in was "Lover Boy". It'really a funny movie...in the 80's...a young Patrick Dempsey is a pizza delivery guy that services rich women...just by chance.....very funny movie... you should rent it.

Talk to you tomorrow.

Hi everyone
No time to write but I just wanted to mention that Patrick Dempsey was in Cosmo or something and they asked him if he ever cheated and he said yes on his 1st wife and then he said cheating is all about the thrill but then the guilt sets in its much better to just flirt and know someone wants you because once you act on it your life falls apart. I read this to H and he said that it was so true for him. He felt terrible for acting on this and got caught up in it and couldnt/didnt stop.

I will be back later. Have a great day!
HF

Hi everyone.

Drexxel, welcome. I missed alot since yesterday but the ladies here gave you some good comments. I don't know what else I can add, except you say that your W said she didn't want to have SF with you because she wasn't in love, or she didn't feel cherished? Was she in love with the other men? Did she feel cherished by them? I don't think so. I think that alcohol played a role in that of course. But I really don't understand why NOW she is not into SF with you, when previously you were doing it 5-7 x / week...that I don't get. Maybe it is guilt now that you know about her As.

I'm sorry for your situation,and commend you for sticking around to work it out. There are not many men out there who would...

I agree with HF that foreplay is not just right before SF, it is all day..it is listening to me, a phone call, helping with the kids, doing something without being asked, etc. It is NOT just getting into bed and reaching for me after not talking to me all day, and just expecting me to respond.

Good luck to you and your W. Feel free to stick around here, we'll try to give you the woman's point of view.



HF, Thanks for the comment about Patrick Dempsey. I think my H would agree. It was all about him feeling wanted, like he still had it...

I may or may not be back later today, but if not, I won't be back again until Monday. I hope you all have a good weekend and I will catch up with you Monday if not before.

Thanks for the welcome. The last couple of nights has been not so good for me. WW gotta work late, not home when she says she will be, definate dishonesty about that. Last night she was out "driving and having a good cry". The night before it was "taking a long walk." I don't have definitive proof that she did otherwise.

I did call the hotel on the base where she's assigned this morning at 6am and asked if OM had checked out yet. Desk clerk said he had. OM lives roughly 15 hours driving time from here. So, if he was indeed in town, he probably flew.

Can't call OMW and confirm if he was home because I can't find their info. Unlisted everything. I was going to confront her with it at MC tonight, but without more evidence than a desk clerk at a hotel saying something like that and not knowing the hotel proceedure for looking up guests, it may be better not to.

I told WW last night that I thought she was up to no good the last two nights. Also told her I thought it was disrespectful to me and I thought she had neglected her kids the last 2 days. Getting home after bed times start isn't good when WW leaves the house before 6.

Strangely, I don't feel anything today. No anger, no saddness, no happiness. I just exist. Somewhere, my brain probably figured out a way to detach me from what's going on and just hasn't gotten around to telling me yet. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You all have a great day in case I don't get back on. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Drexxel
So sorry to hear about your week. It certainly sounds fishy. I was asuming she was just with one night stands but there is an actual OM right? Does his W know anything that you know of?

Does your wife have IC? What was her reation to you confronting her?

Mama
Have a good day off. Good Luck if you are going where I think you are going. My prayers will be with you!

Hope everyone is doing well today...quiet here...hopefully everyone is enjoying good weather like I am here! Went to the park..so fun..summer is coming!
HF

HF,

Most of them were. Most involved alcohol. Not the last one. This last guy wasn't a ONS. They met 12-16-05 while they were deployed. Started PA 1-17-06 and continued EA until 3-29-06. I thought there had been NC because the consequences I laid out were absolutely nasty.

I don't know if OMW knows anything. I haven't been able to get in touch with her. I do know they don't have kids so her reaction could be pretty bad. I called in a couple of "legal favors" today to get some info, but it hasn't panned out. I tried to call OMW with the # I got today, but it's not a working #. Was simply going to ask if he had gotten back from his trip yet. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> That would at least let me know if he was out of town.

Our MC session is tonight, so I haven't confronted WW yet about this. I'm not really sure I want to because I don't know how reliable the info is, ya know? Thanks for checking on em though. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Good afternoon everyone, and welcome Drexxell! I hope all us girls here can help out a bit. I know that the support I get at MB has been something that has really sustained me through some difficult times.

First of all, it sounds like your WW is in the military, and that is creating some difficulties in getting information about the OM. You might try putting up a post to Morterman--I don't think he is currently in the military, but he definately was and is very knowledgable about things you can do that may help you while you are trying to get NC established.

And the string of affairs . . . . I am no expert, but it seems to me that women (and probably men, too) who are promiscuous in that way are really reaching out desperately for something to make them feel good about themselves. Of course, it is a terrible cycle because the more men they sleep with, the more worthless they feel. I don't think anyone with a healthy self image would ever behave in that way. The question is, what is at the root of her insecurities. Is she already in IC? Maybe you already answered that question . . . .

Anyway, I respect very much your willingness to stick it out. I really don't know that I could, but then I never thought that I would stay with someone who cheated on me, period. Being a parent makes you do crazy things, I guess!

But I do think the first thing to focus on isn't necessarily getting the intimacy back with her--although that is obviously important. I think first you need to make sure her A is truly over. You're not really going to be able to rebuild the relationship until she comes out of that awful "foggy" place that cheating spouses go. Her remark about loving you but not being in love is vintage--I have read sooooo many BS say that their cheating spouses told them that very thing. It is a classic lie to justify an ongoing A. So that would be my suggestion--continue on with Plan A, and try to end the A with cunning and exposure.

Mama--I hope that your day tomorrow goes well for you and you H. My fingers (and toes) are crossed, and we are all thinking of you.

And I hope your ribs turned out well, F&L, they sounded delicious! I am gathering that you are a very good cook, and if you weren't so far away and would invite myself over for dinner sometime.

HF--I think I did see "Loverboy"--and there was another one he was in back then too, about being a geeky high school kid transformed into a hunk (kind-of a "My Fair Lady" concept). I think it was "Can't Buy Me Love." Did you ever see that one? He was cute then, but I think he is so much more attractive now. Why does it work that way for men?

Anyhow--I will check back!

-C.

Drexxell,

Good luck in MC...You are right to be suspicious, given her actions the last couple of days...You don't necessarily have to confront her since you don't have concrete info about the OM/hotel, but you could bring it up in MC and see what her response is. She should be able to tell you where she was...she left before 6 am and didn't come home until late...she has to be accountable for her actions. And be transparent..She is being selfish, just like all the Hs we have talked about on this thread. I don't understand the sense of entitlement that goes along w/ being a WS!!

Hopingfor,
Thanks for the support. It has been quiet today...and very nice outside. I didn't go out at all...Trying to finish stuff up since I won't be here tomorrow.

Have a good weekend everyone!

CSJ,

Dunno what's at the root of her insecurities. Could have been her first marriage really messed her up. Basically with that one, she got preggers in High School, graduated 4 months pregnant, got married and joined the military after DS14 came along. (BTW, I will be adopting that boy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

She hasn't started IC yet, but was supposed to see the doc this morning to get it set up. As far as getting info on OM/OMW is concerned, I've got the wheels turning. I know lots of things, just not addy or # or OMW e-mail.

Parents act crazy because kids make em that way. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> In all seriousness, though, I don't know that not having kids would have affected my decision in this matter. The "string" of affairs, makes me believe there's an illness of some sort involved. I think sexual addiction is very real and can be as damaging as drug addiction or alcoholism. People in these catagories don't make sound decisions. For my WW, there may be some alcoholism involved too. She doesn't drink every day, but sometimes she drinks to excess and these things happen.

Which makes me wonder even more, if, during some of these events, she was as blitzed as she claims to have been, to the point that she's aware of her surroundings and can understanding what she's doing, but not really do anything to prevent it, the quality of guys that are doing this is virtually non existant. Sometimes I'm ashamed of my own sex. But I digress.

And again, other than the phone call that I made this morning, I have no evidence that there has been contact. I'm paranoid and I have every right to be! LOL Anywho, I'll go for now. Gotta check homework!

Hi Ladies and Guy,

I can't stay on too long, got to cook dinner - I'm making an ethnic dinner tonight. And yes, I am a good cook - my husband says I feed him too much and made him gain weight over the years - yes, I held a gun to his head and said eat!!!! But, my guy loves to eat!

Drexxell...I'll talk a bit more tomorrow. Be patient.

Got to go, everyone be good – MF, have a good weekend, Hoping For – you must forgive and CSJ just keep on giving us your good advice. CSJ send an e-mail via MF – and she’ll send to me. I’ll send you some pics of me and the family.

Talk to you guys tomorrow when I have more time. Good thing I can type fast - I can type about 80 words a minute - I used to be an exec. secretary.

Drexxel
Did you ask WW for his info? I guess she must be unwilling to give it to you. Which only leads to why is she unwilling? Which makes me think she is protecting him when she should be protecting you and your marriage.

Hmmm...I hope I am wrong but she does not sound like she is anywhere near being out of the fog.

Have a good night. Hopefully MC will bring positive things!
HF

HF, Yes, I think she is still fog bound and possibly in withdrawal. If I had taken into consideration all the evidence I had, I probably wouldn't have come to the conclusion I did yesterday. The additional evidence I had that I didn't consider was yesterday was her 2nd day on her period. I went out and checked the mileage on her car and it pretty much checked out with what she said about taking a drive. As for the desk clerk? Who knows...

MC was good. At one point WW said she felt like she was being smothered at home. The MC got onto her for not telling ME something before getting into MC about feeling like that. "He can't change what you don't like if you don't tell him." Ha! The MC asked her if she wanted to take a break from MC and not come for a while because she felt "smothered". WW didn't even think. She quickly replied, "No.". Ha! again!

So then, we're going over our homework that we had from the previous week. One of WWs responses said she didn't feel passion for the R or for me anymore. The MC asks, "Do you have passion for anything? Any hobbies or anything at all?" WW says, "No." MC says, "Do you feel like you're friends? Good friends?" WW says "Yes. It feels like we're friends living in the same house."
MC says, "If your 'friend' were to go out and start spending a lot of time with the lady that lives down the street, would you be ok with your 'friend' spending that time with her or would you want your 'friend' to get back in the house?"

WW just kind of hung her head and didn't answer. MC was like, "I think there's more than just friendship there." MC went on to talk about how depression destroys passion for everything and until WW started making herself feel better, she wan't going to be passionate about anything.

WW and I kinda fussed at dinner afterward. Basically, I told her how I felt about something, she didn't like what she heard because it implied that she was untrustworthy, didn't validate my feelings, got defensive and hurled a slew of personal attacks. IT was all better before we went to bed 20 minutes later.

Somewhere in there she told me "Go to ******!" I asked her if one of her kids told her that, how would she respond. She said that wouldn't fly with her. I asked her if she would say that to her kids or one of her coworkers. Of course not. I told her if she wanted to be disrespectful she could do it to someone else because I wasn't going to be her doormat. Boy was she trying to push my buttons. LOL

Eventually, though, she just completely broke down and was crying and saying it wasn't all her fault. She says, "It might be 90-10, but it's not ALL my fault." I didn't say a thing. Just held her for a few minutes. Then I said I knew it wasn't all her fault and wasn't putting all of the blame on her. I told her I took responsibility for my part in what was happening and that I was making an effort to change my part.

I think she may have had a couple minutes of clarity there. I dunno. I haven't asked WW for OMW info. From what I know, OM was still deployed when NC went into effect and WW didn't have his home info. I'll know for sure about this month when the cell phone bill comes out in a couple of days. I know OM was supposed to come back from overseas mid April time frame. Anyways, there's my drama. LOL

Hi everyone,

Hope all is ok with you girls.

Drexxell....Many woman are affected differently from tragedies/experiences from their early adult life, plus their home life when growing up. Sometimes when young girls either live in a bad home or never got affection/attention from their dads they tend to seek that affection in men in their adult years. But, sometimes they use these things as a crutch for their actions later in life.

I had many tragedies when I was growing up.....but perhaps, I am stronger, than most and I survived. I had many obstacles myself….but I was persistent, determined to make our marriage work. Sometimes, one person has to do all the work in the beginning.

Your wife has deep rooted problems which need to be found out.....until they are and dealt with....nothing will be accomplished. A lot of people when they are having their A's don't even realize they are doing something wrong....even when they are found out....they refuse to accept the fact that they alone chose to do what they did. Many try to blame the innocent spouse....thus taking the blame/shame/guilt away from them. At this point, your wife is probably thinking you're complaining, nagging, bothering her with your questions, etc. This will go on for many months....like it did in my case.

The important thing to rebuilding any marriage is honesty...which doesn't sound to me - that your wife is with you. Communication is another one....but by communicating - it means you should both understand each other....just talking doesn't mean your communicating.....you have to listen and try to do what the other person wants....both of you.

Your MC was right.....she probably wouldn't do something like this to one of her friends.....yet; she is doing it to you....the person that cares about her the most....the person that is standing by her side. Would any one of these men, even think of doing that - I doubt very much. Your wife still hasn't realized who really cares for her well being.

You should definitely find out more info about the OM and his wife also. I'm sure the OMW would like to know what's going on. Believe me, if you want to do some detective work....the computer is your best tool. Talk to her friends, people she knows - you'll find things out. Get your evidence and then confront her with it.....as everyone says, affairs in secret remain affairs....once they are exposed, they turn sour.

Well, I got to go.

I have a lot of info on OM and his W. What I don't have is contact info. I've utilized the computer, believe me. Even had an "associate" use his software. I can't drive 15 hours to stake out OM. I have no contacts where he lives so I can't ask for favors there either. Believe me, it's not like I'm not trying to get the info. It just hasn't been accessable yet. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Like I said, I have other wheels turning. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Thanks for your input. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Afternoon, everyone!

Fridays can be so crazy! I work 4 x 10's M-TH, so today I am off. I really love it, because it gives me a whole extra day with my girls, and that makes a hectic M-TH totally worth it. But Friday morning I try and get some chasing around finished (grocery store, car wash, etc) and then we dash home for lunch. I just put DD2 down for her nap (she is so adorable, as I was walking out she said "I yub you!), and I can steal a few minutes to myself while DD1 watches "Pinky Dinky Doo" on NickJr. TV is a beautiful thing. Does that make me a bad mom?

Anyway, last night was quite nice. My H got home a little late as he was watching our nieces/nephew show their sheep at the local stock show (yes, we are hicks). I met him and the girls after work, and had planned to stay for a little bit, but he girls had their fill so I brought them home. H got home a few hours later after the girls were in bed. We laid in bed for a while and just chatted. Not about anything, really. But just talked, just like we always used to. It was so nice, and made me feel like maybe we really can keep this train on the tracks. I know I've mentioned that during his A we didn't talk--not really. Since I was too thick to see this for what it really was, I just worried that we had run out of things to say to eachother. So many times I wondered "What will we do when the kids get older and move out? Once we don't have them around we will have nothing left to say." So I guess I am grateful to find out that we still have plenty left to talk about after all.

Drex--it sounds like you are making some headway, and that is good. But I really still think you should find out where OM is and contact his W (I am assuming he is married). I feel like BS's need to stick together and support eachother, and I learned this the hard way. In my situation, my H and the OW started up their thing mid-October or so. On Christmas Day, the OW's H intercepted a text message on her phone from my H that said "I miss you. Love, FWH" This message also set up some meeting they had that day (which still makes me mad--on Christmas for crying out loud!) Anyhow, he confronted her about it, she denied everything, claiming it was just a "friendship" that she would end. She later told him she broke everything off, and he believed her. I was never told any of this at the time.

Fast forward to November 17 the following year. The s**t was hitting the fan, and a family member of the OWH's called me (at work) and broke the news to me. He gave me OWH's phone number and invited me to call him, which I did. This is when I heard the story about the Christmas text message. OWH's apologized to me that night, saying that he should have told me what he knew back then. AND HE SHOULD HAVE! Not that I blame him for anything, mind you. I have nothing but respect for him, and I feel so badly for what has happened to his little family (they have 2 kids, and are now divorced). But I had a right to protect my marriage, and if I had been told at Christmas, I could have done something to end that A many months earlier. If only . . .

Anyway, the moral is that I think you should definately tell the OM's wife. She has a right to know.

But, I better check in with DD1--I promised something "fun" today, and I still need to figure out what that is! I'll check in later!

-C.

As I stated, it's not for lack of looking for the info. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> If money were no object, I could have the info in the snap of a finger. Unfortunately, I have to work in the realm of what I have available to me. You're preachin to the choir here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I'd love it if people would stop telling me to tell OMW and someone would say, "Sorry you're having a hard time getting her info. This is what I did that worked and this is what I did that didn't work." Food for thought.

Hello everyone,

Glad to see that everyone is checking in on this thread. I'm at the library so just popped in for a few minutes.

Drexxel,

I agree that your W seems to still be in the fog. But it is good that she is still continuing MC with you...Just hang in there, and don't LB / retaliate when she starts blaming you...My H also blamed me for his A at first--I wasn't "taking care of him" (SF)...He has realized that it was his choice to have an A, rather than to talk to me about how he was feeling...

As for me, meeting w/ the lawyer was OK. Not very promising but it is going to be a long road...The lawyer says that he thinks her mother is pushing her on this whole thing...

I'm trying to support my H and help him to get out of his depression. But, Drex, your MC is right about depression==he has been so withdrawn the last couple weeks, that we have had no SF at all...It's ironic that we are back to pre-A here due to his depression...I am willing, have approached him, but he has no interest...This from the man who said the ONLY reason he was with OW was Sex...I think it is a guilt thing. He feels like he has destroyed our lives and isn't worthy of my love and affection. Sometimes I think he is right, but I still love him and he's my friend, despite it all.. So I think I understand a bit more about why you are sticking by your W after all that has happened between you.

I hope you all have a good weekend. I gotta run and pick up the kids...See you on Monday!

CSJ
Thats awful that the OMH had that info and didnt share. Believe me I often think of contacting OWH and telling him what a low life s*&t she is but they are already divorced...the result of her OTHER affair she was having at the same time. Bleck! Sometimes I could just scream I am so angry about all this stuff.

Pinky Dinky is such a cute show! My daughters just found it and no you are not a bad mother. The only people who say they will never let their kids watch tv usually dont have them yet!

Was your Hs A over when you found out? Had he ended it or her H finding out the truth? Just wondering.

Drex
I was watching DrPhil yesterday and there was a woman who was really into having sex. I dont know if she was addicted but she was all over her H and wanted it all the time. He couldnt keep up with her sex drive so she went out to bars just to look and think about what it would be like well you can imagine she finally acted on it and had a ONS with her friends husband. She barely looked sorry just smiling and honestly I think she was happy talking and thinking about sex on the show.

Anyway I was surprised b/c I thought he was just going to throw her into therapy for SA but he told her she needed to get checked for a blood or hormonal imbalance. He has a pretty good website I am sure he has something on there about her and he also has message boards where people talk about the show.

I hope you get your info soon! Good Luck.

Mama I hope you are having a nice weekend!
Hi F&L
Talk with you soon
HF

Hi All,

I am so upset, we just had a huge fight---my husband was looking at my e-mails and found out that I was e-mailing MF and CSJ personally and that I was posting on MB - because he looked at the e-mails I deleted. And yes, he looks at my e-mails. He says he doesn't know who the people are on MB and he doesn't want them to know his business. I told him anything I posted on here was the truth. He is saying that I am lying and he has a different version - I asked what is his version - he couldn't answer me. I wish he would tell “his” version.

There is only one version - he had an affair with his secretary - worked with the OW for 10 months - which I begged him not to do and put me thru the worst hurt I can imagine. We fought, argued for months and why because he refused to leave his job where the OW worked 15 ft. away from him every day. How could we recover when he was working with the OW every day – and she was still making trouble in the back ground. She filed a complaint against him – to get even. When he was questioned about her complaint he lied about everything to the company– said nothing ever happened between them. Yes, he finally left his old job (they asked him to resign) - but let him tell you why he left – he thinks he had a choice. After 20 yrs. of being with him - did I deserve this? Why, because he was going thru a mid-life crisis?

Now, he has a new thing that we can’t agree on - he wants to hire the OW's friend to work in his dept. as a secretary –he would be this woman’s boss - they all worked in the same company. She's the same type of person that the OW was – she has already filed complaints against other people – and was trying to get a little friendly with my husband’s assistant. Yes, he's not the final decision maker on the hiring, but I told him this was not a good idea - she would make trouble for him - or go back and tell the OW everything that's going on. I told him he should try to sway the hiring people somehow from hiring her. I'm trying to protect him - why can't he understand? He told me again - he'll do what he wants - I can't tell him how run his job. I feel like I’m talking to a brick wall.

He thinks everything on here is only gossip. As I told you ladies, my husband doesn't like the MB site and the people on it. He thinks you ladies are some stalkers that I started conversing with on the internet and will come and get our family.

He is saying that I was lying to him by still posting on MB. I told you ladies before, that at one time we both posted on MB - and was just a battle back and forth, because my husband would bash me on everything I said. I stopped posting for a while then something happened and I needed the support again, so I started posting. I din't want to tell him I was posting on here because I knew he would react, just like he did. The only people I talk to is you ladies.

I'm so upset, because this is the only place I have to turn to - to get out my feelings, anger and to get advice. He doesn't want to go to MC anymore. My husband thinks by not acknowledging what he did and making believe like it didn't happen it will go away. I didn't do anything wrong to him, yet he checks up on me. He did this to me and he wants to give me all the ultimatums. Wants to do everything his way, or no way.

He is so domineering and refuses to acknowledge how he hurt me and is still hurting me...he is driving me away from him. The more time passes, he’s making believe like nothing happened – that I imagined everything. Everything that happens is my fault. I can't make him understand.

Please, someone....he will be reading this thread from now on.....talk to him. I'm trying so hard to accept what he did to me - but he keeps hurting me, more and more. I love him - I always have, but how much of this can I take? He is slowly driving me away.

Post deleted by stop_the_drama

WOW
Now heres some drama!

I think that you should consider the hurt that your wife is feeling before you chastise how she is dealing with it. What does it matter to you if she vents to some willing ears over the internet? Would it be better if she aired her laundry to those you know or are friends with?

I think that the intensity of this betrayal makes us BS very sensitive and lonely. You will hopefully never know how much this hurts and how hard every day can be. For me this place has made things easier. Just knowing that someone is out there in cyberspace that knows how I feel makes it a little less lonely for me.

If you truly wanted to help her you would let her do what she needs to to heal.
HF

All,

I'm so upset. Please I don't know what to do. Please. I can't do this any more. Please. He's so mean to me. I've been crying all day...he doesn't understand. Why is he doing this to me.

Please I need words of encouragement....my potatoes are burning. I've got to go. Hoping for I need help.

Hey F&L
I hope you dont mind me giving him the business. I know you love him. He does seem angry. Does he tellyou he wants to make this work? He seems so concerned about others when the focus should be on the two of you. I dont know what to tell you. I hope that he will see the light soon and give you whatever you need to heal your broken heart. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I will try to stay on for a while if you want to chat.
HF

HF,

I don't know where to turn...I can't see the keyboard....I'm so upset...I didn't do anything to him....why is he doing this to me? I din't do anything to him....please make him stop...I've got to cook....my kids are hungry....maybe I should take one of my medications....all day....he's been bad mouthing me.....I didn't do anything wrong....you ladies are all I've got...I'm sorry he said bad things about you all...why...

F&L
Take a deep breath. If you have something that a dr. has given you take it. This too shall pass. I cant count the bad days I have had since dday but there was a better day around the corner. Just breathe and try to calm down. Cook bake eat try to relax and sleep. Just finish the day its almost over and I know from experience crying all day is exhausting!
Read that post "BE STILL".

I will check back with you soon.
HF

F&L
Hope all is well with you I have been thinking about you and wanted to check in. See you havent been on so hopefully thats a good sign. Let me know how you are doing!

Good Morning to everyone else hope you all had a good weekend.
HF

Hi,

Thanks for being there. I was awake all night - vomited last night and this morning. I have a terrific headache - my eyes are almost swollen shut from all the crying. I'm going back to bed and put an ice pack on my eyes.

I told all of you he hates this site - thinks people instigate and make trouble for us. Yes, he is a very angry person. Because I made friends with some people on here and told them my problems - he's so angry at me. As you can see by his screen name - he's always thought I was just being dramatic. We were both on this site once before, but it caused so many problems - all he did was bash me - and the people in turn bashed him - so we no longer posted after Dec. 05.

I'm so tired.....my head is throbbing...I'll get back to you later....when I hopefully feel better.

Thanks again.

Hi F&L,

Sorry to hear about all the problems you have been having. I hope you are feeling better. If your H does not want to go to MC, then you go yourself, or go to an IC. Do that for you! You need an outlet to vent and get your emotions out so you can heal, whether on MB, or to a counselor...Your H does not realize the pain that there is in being a BS...If you don't get it out, it will hinder your recovery even more.

Stopthedrama,

I understand that you do not want your W sharing your private life with others. However, are you willing to listen to your W's feelings and listen to her tell how your A made her feel? Do you want her to unload her pain on you like this, or would you prefer that she keeps it all inside and it makes her sick, or the resentment will keep building up towards you? Why do you not want to go to MC ? If you want to rebuild your M, then you need to work together to do it.

I have truly enjoyed corresponding with your W. And not to listen to "gossip" as you call it. She has been there for me when I needed to hear someone say, Hang in there. You see, my H had an A for 9 mos, while I was pregnant. Now the OW has filed criminal sexual assault charges on him. He may be going to jail. We have 3 children under 6 yrs old. I cannot speak to my friends or coworkers about this. The only people that I have been able to speak to are your wife, CSJ and Hopingfor, and they are the most supportive group of "friends" that I could have wished for. My H is like you. He wants me to forget what happened, he says it didn't mean anything to him, he didn't love her. But what were the consequences? Don't I have a right to be angry that his choice to have an A has ruined my life and my children's lives as well as his? Now, he wants me in his corner. He realizes the mistakes he has made and wants me to move on...He doesn't want to be reminded of what he did and how I feel. He also "resigned" from his position, and his file says 'for personal reasons'. The reason is that h was arrested as a result of the charges by the OW/coworker and was unable to come to work. He had no choice but to resign. They would have fired him for violating the attendance policy if he did not resign. This does not make it a free choice for him to resign. Sound familiar?

Also, you put your W through alot by not leaving that job sooner...all tht time knowing you were working with the woman you had an affair with. I don't know how she made it through that time. I don't think I would have been able to handle that.

I hope that you realize that your W is a beautiful person, and she truly truly loves you with all her heart. That is the one thing that I know for sure, based on my correspondence with her. You are risking losing her, stopthedrama, by your actions now. I have told my H that I can recover from the A, but it is his actions toward me now, that are determining whether or not I want to stay married to him. He has already broken our M vows by having an A. I know that I have every reason in the world to divorce him, and I have thought about it. But I have hope that things will get better, and I have your W to thank for giving me that hope when I had none.

I have shared alot on this board, more than I ever expected to. I am not concerned that someone will come find me, based on what I have told them. It is nice to know the person's real name, hence the personal emails, but I will post only on here if it will cause a problem for F&L. I started the personal thread because I did not want to post names on the board.

I am not concerned about your reading anything I wrote on here. It is all the truth. My H acts in a similar way as you do, that is why F&L started to communicate. It helps to know that there is someone else out there dealing with the same issues. My H is finally realizing how much his A has cost him...When will you realize what you have? I hope it is before it is too late.

Hi MF,

I am certain my husband will read your post when he comes home from work. I don't care any more. My eyes are so swollen from crying - it looks like someone beat me up. I'm just sick over this whole thing.

The argument we had started out simple - my husband told me a woman who had worked in his other company applied for a secretarial job in his dept. Normally, I wouldn't care who he hired - it would be his chose and I'm sure he would hire the best person.

But, I though it was a bad idea to hire someone who is/was friends with the OW. I don't know the degree of their friendship, but they used to take their "smoke breaks" together. In my opinion you don't take breaks with people you aren't friends with. They used to talk during the time the OW filed a complaint against him. So far as her making complaints against other people in the company, I am only going by what my husband, himself, had told me. Even if she isn't/wasn't close friends with the OW - why hire someone to his new company that might cause trouble for him - blab and gossip to everyone why he left the old company. I told him I realized he didn't make the final decision - I just asked him to sway the people that did. I am sure the new company wouldn't want a person working for them that has past experience making trouble for the company. I was trying to protect him - and right away he got offensive and told me not to tell him how to handle his job/hiring procedures.

He's so afraid people on MB will find out what he did - people that he'll never meet in his lifetime - yet, he is not worried about hiring someone to work for him, that probably knows everything that happened in his old company. It certainly doesn't make sense to me.

I went outside to do some yard stuff and that's when he decided to spy on what was in my e-mails and thus saw your name. Immediately, he asked who that person was. I told him you were from MB and I made friends with you and CSJ. He blew up and said he didn't know who you were - you were total strangers - how dare I send his picture to you ladies. Now they know everything about us - could be stalkers, etc. I tried to tell him I should know you by now, we've been conversing for several months. You all helped me vent, when I needed to. Things were really going along well for us, until now.

A note: after D-day he used to check on everything I did, i.e., e-mails, internet - he said if I was able to snoop on him - he could snoop on me. The only reason I snooped was to find out if he was having an affair. I never did this before - I always trusted him.

Then he said I was lying because I promised I wouldn't post on MB anymore. I started posting on MB when the OW filed a complaint against him in the old company. I was upset - so I needed to turn somewhere. We had already stopped going to the MC and my husband felt we shouldn't go anymore. I knew he would blew up if I went on MB.

Now that he has his new job - he thinks he's back on top of the world. Doesn't need my advice, can talk to me any way he pleases.

Hi F&L,

I hope your H does read my post. We do not have a computer at home so my H can't check my emails. I have told him about my corresponding with you all, but he doesn't mind. He told me months ago that he was glad that I had someone to talk to about this stuff (instead of venting on him, you know?)...He appreciates what CSJ has told me about the legal case.

I think that it would be better for your H if that associate from the other company is not hired. I'm sure that even if she is not "friends" with OW, she is aware of what happened, as the news goes through the grapevine. But there is really not much your H can do about it. If she is hired, what happened there may or may not come out at the new job. That is not your concern. It is your H's choice to do what he can to dissuade the co. to hire him. Trying to get him to change his opinion will not work. So just let it go...

My H has made so many bad decisions, starting with the A, but even after that....He doesn't want to listen to my opinion. We are all paying for it now...I think he has finally realized that his choices have changed all of our lives forever. He is finally getting out of his depression...We went to church yesterday and the sermon was about Thanking God for the little things in life...Things that you take for granted until you don't have them any more. That really hit home for him. He was alot better the rest of the day. We even had SF last night. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well, F&L, I hope that you can get yourself together today and just hang in there. I'm sorry that you are going through all of this now.

Hi everyone
My H too when I 1st started posting here was against it. He thought it just kept bringing it up and I would never forget for a minute what happened. I think now he realizes the magnitude of the damage he did to me and is now willing to do whatever it takes to help me get better.

F&L I hope you are doing better!
Mama I am so happy for you that your H is getting out of his depression. I am sure that helps alot in everyday life.

Well gotta go. Will check back soon!
HF

(((((((((((F&L))))))))))))

I am so sorry you have had a terrible weekend! It seems we all take a turn, you know? Your good spirits and strength have really uplifted me, and I have felt so lucky to find a support group with you, HF, and MF. I couldn't ask for anything better--and I just want you to know how much you have helped me.

I agree with you 100% that it is unwise to hire the OW's friend/associate. Personnel issues can be such time-wasters, and such a drain. This woman has issues written all over her, and I can't imagine why he would want this connection to his A around every day. Obviously your H is an adult and can choose to accept or reject your input--but he should at a minimum listen respectfully to your opinion. It is offered out of love and a desire to move your relationship forward.

STOPTHEDRAMA

First of all, this board is not about "drama." None of us asked to be here, or sought it out. We are here because we need the support we find here.

I understand that you don't know me at all, but I have no wish to invade the privacy of anyone on this board. You have no need to be threated by me. We are just a group of people with similar experiences that have found eachother to be a source of support. There are things I say to your wife and the others here that my husband cannot possibly understand, because he has not been in the same place. If you take a moment to really read these posts--I think you will see that no one digs for private information--we are not looking to "get dirt" on anyone. We are just seeking to be friends to eachother, and to offer support where we possibly can.

I do not know very much about your family. I know the state where you reside, but not the city. I know you work for a company, but I don't know it's name. I know you have children, but I don't know their names. What I do know is this: your wife is a compassionate, caring, thoughtful, bright, funny, and interesting person. I know that she loves you, and that she would walk to h*ll and back for her family. I know, from the picture she sent, that she is as lovely on the outside as she is in the inside. And I also know that there she carries a lot of pain inside from what you did. She is finding some help for that pain here, and you should not condemn her for the manner in which she tries to repair the damage that you caused.

Know also that we do not condemn you. Your wife has stood by you, and that is enough for us to conclude that you must be an alright guy.

So please do not feel judged or threatened by anyone here.

Regards,
CSJ

Hi Everyone,

I'm starting to feel better...although I did nothing today. I feel like I was dragged thru the streets. I have no energy. My 3 tons of stone are sitting in the backyard waiting to be put down....the pool needs to be cleaned….I’ve got a ton of stuff to do…will have to do when I get better. Have to bring my daughter to confirmation practices later.

Again, thanks for all the wonderful things you ladies have said about me....makes me feel better.

I just don't know when my husband will realize I am on HIS side - I'm not against him. Whenever I suggest something to him - his first response is to do/say the opposite of what I say - then he thinks it over and most of the time does what I suggest anyway. Why ask for my opinion or suggestion - then tell me stop telling me what to do? Why go thru all the arguing? I know I also say things in the heat of anger, but I'm getting so tired of defending myself - why I didn't do anything.

Even with the situation of hiring the woman from his old company - all I wanted was for him to try and sway the person/people (delicately) that make the ultimate decision. I know he can't just say I'm not going to hire her. But at first he said he wouldn't say anything to sway their decision ( I was telling him how to do his job) - then after arguing he said he would mention something - that's all I asked for.

Then he tells me he just won't tell me anything anymore. I don't care who the heck he hires, but if there is a possibility that a person may harm him, his career or our family - I think I should know - maybe we could do something about it. Whenever I question something he tells me (if he doesn’t like the question) - things he does in the office – he tells me they are personnel issues and are none of my business – it’s confidential. Yes, they’re confidential – to the people in the company – not me – I’m his wife – he doesn’t work for the FBI. Who the heck am I going to tell.

I just feel now that he has his new job/career he feels he doesn't need me anymore - like a couple of months ago. He's always telling me "you don't know about this, blah, blah, blah, you don't know about that, blah, blah blah". He always makes me feel(by the way he talks to me) that I'm stupid and I don't know a thing. If I'm so stupid, why am I not the one making all the mistakes?

When I tell him how much he hurt me, he just yesses me to death, "yes I hear you, yes I understand, yes wife" - but he's not really comprehending anything I'm saying.

I thought we were coming along so well – we progressed so much – this set us back a great deal – he said a lot of mean things to me. When he didn’t know I was conversing with you ladies, things were fine (that’s because I was venting with you ladies) but as soon as he found out – I was lying, he couldn’t trust women/me anymore, he was asking if I wanted him to leave, I was on here so I can get evidence for court – he was talking total nonsense. I'm always so proud of my family, even him and proudly show pictures of them - that's all I was doing when I sent MF and CSJ them. I didn't think I was doing anything wrong.

He even told one of his family members one the phone that his fuc----g wife was talking to that fuc---g MB about all his personal stuff (now they know what he looks like), How could he talk like that about me?

I guess he felt bad that I was so upset and sick last night – had to take my anxiety pills - he called me at home today to see how I was.

Good afternoon all!

I hope everyone else had an enjoyable weekend. The weather held, so we had another stretch of good outside days. My H had an obligation at the local High School Friday night, so we made a girl party out of it. We made "Jell-O Dirt Cups" (the dirt is made with chocolate pudding and crushed Oreo cookies, and then gummi worms are crawling out the top) and watched "Barbie and Swan Lake." It was great fun--they stuck the worms in the pudding and said "Ewwwwwww- gross!" And then gobbled them down. A perfect night.

My H I think got a little exasperated with me on Sunday, though. He was on his way out the door in the afternoon and said he would be "back soon." When I asked what time to expect him, he said "not long" with this tone of voice where I could seriously hear his eyes rolling. He just wants me to trust him, 100%, no questions asked, just like I used to. That would be nice, wouldn't it?

And then I've been working on getting him a nice graduation present--as per MF's suggestion, something for his new truck. I knew he wanted a truck box and I asked his friend about it, to get an idea about which kind. But then when I went pricing it the cheapest one I could find was $650! So I figured I better talk to him about it before spending anything--that would be just my luck to fork out that much money and have it not be the one he wanted. He said he found one at Lowe's for $250 (whew--much better), so I told him I would get him a gift certificate and then he could go pick the exact one. "No--I don't want you to get me anything." Now I believe this is just the guilt--he doesn't want to accept anything from me right now. But that only makes me feel worse, because it just reminds me of the way he acted during his A, when NOTHING I did was good enough. So after stewing all evening, I finally confronted him and told him that I was interpreting his reaction as a personal rejection, and I really can't handle that from him. So he agreed to accept a present.

Why is everything like pulling teeth now?

Anyway, I better get back to work. I'll check back later!

-C.

Oh--HF, you asked about whether my H's A was over by the time I found out. Yes, it was. It was good in a way--because I don't think I could have tolerated trying to "win him back." But it was awful too, because it had been over for almost 2 months, and from my perspective, I had my H back! He had been so detached and strange for all that time, and now he was acting like himself again--I was so relieved that things were slipping back to normal. Then--BOOM! DDay hits just like Hiroshima.

F&L-

I am so glad to hear that you are feeling better. I am still scratching my head over his rather extreme reaction. I have to admit, I've not told my H about posting here, although I have printed out a few posts that I want him to read, eventually. I don't think he'd be mad, but I can picture him surfing around trying to find out what I am saying, and I like having this as my private place. But this privacy thing is quite a trigger for your H. It's almost like he's blaming your marital strife not on his affair, but on the fact that you DISCOVERED it. Interesting projection of blame.

But that was one thing from SAA that really stuck out to me--no married couple SHOULD have that level of privacy. My H and I had always allowed each other some pretty big boundaries. If a letter came for him, I didn't open it. If he was going somewhere, I didn't question him about why or when. And this really allowed him all the "privacy" he needed to cheat on me for a year. Big mistake on my part. Having a more open marriage is a challenge for us, and there are parts that are a bitter pill for him to swallow. But I learned the hard way that the level of privacy your H wants does you no favors.

I wish your H could grasp that concept.

Anyway, I hope you are feeling better today. All that stone in your yard can wait for another day. You take it easy for a bit.

-C.

CSJ
Oh wouldnt that be great to trust again. If I could only trust my obviously wrong in the past instincts! I told H that today he was busy at work and all I could think is whats going on with him? Why is he distracted? Ugh...such a long road.

My girls LOVE Barbie. We just saw Barbie Live in Fairytopia a couple weeks ago so much fun! I am so grateful for those little peanuts...makes me see what is important.

I am so lucky in so many ways. My H really wants to be with me (even if he is frustrated with my sloooow recovery) and I have such great kids. I think that I have always had things a little easy and thats maybe why I am so devastated. I never thought I would have to go thru something like this. I had such high expectations of my marriage. Everything was perfect. It wasnt but I wanted to think that. The funny thing is is that its closer to perfect NOW than before dday. I just have to get past this hurt so I can enjoy it.

F&L
I hope your H takes to heart what we have all expressed to him. We obviously all feel similar things and all hold a mutual respect for what each of us has been and is going thru. I hope he realizes that the 4 of us are here to help each other not hurt each other. Hope your day continues to get better.

Have a great night everyone
HF

Hi Everyone,

My girls still have all their Barbies-some don't have their clothes on and some have their have all messed up, but they refuse to give them away. One of our friends made the "Mud Cake" some yrs. back - very similar - a flower pot filled with whipped cream and crushed oreos on top and a flower in the middle of it all - very rich tasting! We went to see the Wizard of Oz on ice several years back - that was great.

My husband is working late tonight - so I'm home alone. I wish my eyes would go back to normal - I have to go see my dad tomorrow - didn't see him in a couple of days. We did yard work over the weekend.

I know my husband isn't a bad guy, but I think it sets him off when he sees in print what he did - makes him realize that it happened. In his mind he thinks if he doesn't talk about it, ignores it or make believe it didn't happen - it will go away. No matter how much he hurts me - I always forgive him - I can't be mad at him. Am I gluten for punishment?

Girls, I forgot to tell you my oldest daughter won 2 tickets on Friday night to the annual Disco Ball sponsored by KTU (103.5) at the Taj Mahal in Atlantic City – MF you must have that station in CT. She’s going to bring me in June. They’re going to have all the old disco stars, like the Tramps, Sugar Hill Gang, Gloria Gaynor, Lime, Tavares, Evelyn “Champagne” King and many more. She was so excited – she called on her phone and told us to listen to the station – we put it on and she was on the radio. Cool! You know how we love to dance.

Got to go – they cancelled my daughter’s Confirmation practice – have to pick her up. Talk to you all tomorrow.

F&L-

I understand why it would be a jolt to see the details of the worst thing you ever did all written out. I think my H would probably be a little hurt by that also. But he doesn't get to be angry about it, and neither should your H. Really, what we write about isn't the brass tacks of what happened in the A--we write about what we FEEL. And my H may be able to dispute the various accounts of what happened in his A, but he cannot dispute how it made me feel. And, try as he might, he can't take those feelings away (although I wish he could). My feelings belong to me, and I am the one who must deal with them. But it helps so much to have others who understand--like you gals! Anyway, I hope he takes a breath and tries to see things from your perspective.

But the Disco night sounds like a blast! Last year I saw "Mamma Mia" with all the ABBA music and it was so fun--that music just makes you want to dance! That should be a fun evening--you might have to dust off your go-go boots!

Talk to you all tomorrow,
-C.

I agree...how many times I heard it wasnt about you...well my healing isnt about him..he doesnt like me talking about it either but you are right csj he doesnt get to chose. I wish I could have been involved in his decision to cheat but I wasnt.

I am doing what we are all doing here trying to feel better and hang in there. I thank God for you guys and MB and if my H never understands it then so be it...there are some things I will never understand about him either.

Talk with you all in the am. Have a good night.
HF

Hi Girls,

My husband came home after 10:00 last night - I told him during the day that you ladies posted back to him - maybe he'll read it tonight. He was very nice to me and said he was sorry for what he said - he says sometimes he just doesn't know why he does this to me. He told me he loved me. Sometimes, he can be the sweetest guy and I melt, like I always did/do. Like I said I can never stay mad at him.

I've got to go outside today and try and clean the pool - then I'm going to see my dad. I have to wear sunglasses, even though there is no sun - my eyes are still swollen. My eyes always get so swollen when I cry - I'm the only one this happens to - I even get big puffs under my eyes when I cry - then my eyes turn into two slits. I'll start the stones next week - I don't feel strong enough now.

CSJ....I remember ABBA...they sang "Dancing Queen"...hey that's me!

My daughter wants me to get her a trampoline for her confirmation present - we've been very hesitant about this - but she's been asking for a couple of years now for this. It weighs 140 lbs. in the box, so I can't get it by myself - then I was going to order it on-line - shipping is between $50-$140 because of the weight. I'll have to figure something out - because even if my husband comes home these next couple of nights - I have to take my daughter to practices. Hmmmmmm - have to put my thinking cap on.

I was watching "Good Morning America" this morning and the subject was about a woman teacher (I think she's from Florida) who had a relationship with her 13 yr. old boy student. What the heck is wrong with these women? This is starting to happen a lot. She is such an attractive woman and she needs to be with a 13 yr. old? These women are definitely sick. There is such a double standard - if this was a man who did this to a 13 yr. old girl - they would "nail him to the wall". I forgot what sentence she got - but it wasn't that much.

Thanks again ladies for all your support. Got to go and get ready to go outside to clean the pool. In this part of the country all this pollen and long weed like seeds fall off the trees (I think Maple or Oak). These stupid things roll and tumble up into a ball – kind of like tumble weeds – that’s what we call them in our family. They go all over the deck, in the pool(clog the motor) – everything turns green. Remember I just painted the deck – now it’s green. You clean them up and 2 minutes later - they're all over the ground again.

Oh well, only another week or two and it will be gone. Talk to you later.

Hoping For how have you been doing? You haven't said too much. MF is all well? CSJ - when are you going to NM?

Morning F&L!

Glad to hear that your hubby is smoothing things over--I just about fell out of my chair when I read his post, because he did sound so angry. And after everything that we've all been through, being angry about posting here just isn't worth it.

I hope you have a good visit with your dad--it's so nice that you are close by to take care of him. I'm sure it means the world to him.

We are planning the NM trip for next week--we leave on Wed the 17th and get back the following Mon. I'm getting pretty excited, I think it will be a good time for us to get focused on us. Or it could be a disaster--that much time alone in the car with him! Maybe he'll drive me nuts! But my cute new swimming suit came in the mail yesterday, and it is adorable. So I think I will look cute by the pool, as planned. I ordered a few books, too, as we both like reading when we have some time to relax. I had my H pick out a few books he wanted and ordered them for him, too. The kids will have a whole week with my H's dad and step-mom, and they are very excited also. They just have a blast having time with our girls, so I think that will be a nice time for them, too.

Anyhow, I'll get some work done and check back later!

-C.

csj
Your trip sounds awesome. I am sure you will have a blast. My H just told me we have to cancel our anniversary getaway b/c of a baseball commitment fo rmy oldest <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />. I love spending alone time with him. We are just getting to the point now where we can leave the kids and relax.

F&L
I am glad you are patching things up with the H. Its so hard to put yourself in their shoes I know. The WS probably hurts as much as we do. I know I would not want to be the one who brought all this into the marriage! You would think it would make them more attentive and sensitive but we arent them so we dont understand.

I too almost fell off my chair when I read his post. I was shocked! Like you and I changed our screen names your H should too if he ever posts again. I can see that others would take offense to it thus causing the attitudes you spoke of people posting back to him. Infidelity causes a valid pain not just a made up drama. I hope he does post again and I hope others will help him understand what you are going thru so you can both be on the same page.


Did anyone watch BIG LOVE this week. I watched it last night (we have like 7 HBO channels for some reason). Anyway 2nd wife admits to owing 60,000 dollars in credit card debt. The H is sooooo angry feels betrayed yadayadayada...all feelings I am sure we have all had. At the end of the show they make up and he says I was upset because what you did was out of my control but the truth is I cant control what you do you control what you do. Which is a point someone was trying to make here with me a long time ago.

CSJ
My H wanted me to ask you is Utah a dry state? We were watching BigLove and 2 couples were out tio dinner and 3 people ordered milk...MILK! I was cracking up. Then he said I think they may have dry counties or event he entire state. I could google it but thought I would ask you.

Mama
Hope all is well! Hope you had a good weekend!
HF

HF- Yes, we watched BigLove also, and I quite enjoyed it. Who would have thought that I could watch the marital issues in a polygamous family and actually relate to it! I also thought the exchange he had about not being able to control what our spouses do was rather poignant. Maybe there is no other way to learn that lesson than the "hard" way. Still sucks, though.

The milk scene was funny--my H and I also laughed at that part. Utah isn't exactly a dry state, but the alcohol laws are strict here compared to other places. The Salt Lake City mayor actually tried to change that for the olympics so that we could be more "neighborly" to the tourists and athletes, but that didn't fly. The type of alcohol that can be sold in grocery stores has to have a pretty low alcohol content, even some types of beer are too high and then you have to get them at the State Liquor Store. Not all restaurants have a liquor license, and even then it is generally just a wine list or maybe a marguerita or something. And then many cities have ordinances which prohibit the sale of alcohol on sundays--I don't know if that's common elsewhere or not. There are very few places that are what you'd think of as a "bar." Here they are called "private clubs" because there is a specific kind of business license you have to get. Anyway, it was a rather funny jab at the rather conservative culture here, but a bit exaggerated. Actually, most folks around here order soft drinks when they go out to eat. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Happy to be a source of Utah/Mormon culture trivia!

-C.

F&L - I'm back....was on vacation with my H and two DDs.

I read an old post - no you didn't scare me away.

How is everyone doing? I haven't had a chance to read much but wanted to quickly check in.

Hi,

Just got back from my dad's and got some more chemicals to clean the pool.

Sad and Confused....I thought we scared you off. Welcome back. We still need your thoughts! We need to know why you did what you did...you never really answered our questions. My husband will be reading this site and maybe posting - he used to post on here many months ago – but after a while we both stopped because it turned out to be a shouting match between us. It would be interesting if you and he agree on certain things or were thinking the same thing or maybe you don’t.

Jersey just changed their Sunday Blue Laws not too long ago. I'd say about 15 yrs ago you couldn't buy any liquor anywhere in the state here on a Sunday. When they first started on Sunday - it had to be after 12:00/noon. Now I think all liquor stores are open in the morning. We still can't buy any liquor in a regular food store - only a store that specifically sells liquor. Every restaurant here has to have a liquor license to sell liquor. There are still some towns in NJ that are dry down the shore.

My husband would be very disappointed if he sat down to watch his Jets with a bottle of MILK! Just wouldn't be the same. Here....have a swig of MILK...at the stadium, get your peanuts, popcorn, MILK! Having the choice of imported MILK, draft MILK, etc. That would be pretty funny!

CSJ…it will be nice for you and your hubby to get away. My husband and I went on a business trip in Nov. 05, and it was really nice to be alone. We ate dinner out, danced, talked and had fun – just the two of us.

My husband and I fight when we are in the car together…if I take my eye off the road for one minute my husband makes a wrong turn…that starts the fight. We’ve been know to drive around in circles a few times, while he was driving. He’s not too good on directions. I’ve missed a couple of turns also – but he’s worse than I am. He’s so funny – he always thinks he’s going the right way, when it's obvious we aren't and I can't say anything or he gets mad and tells me I made him make the wrong turn.

Well, I'm done eating - going outside to do the pool.

No, you didn't scare me off! :-)

I would love to answer your questions......bring them on. I am posting now from work so I have to be a little careful.

It's pure selfishness...then the addiction sets in, then when you try to break free the fog sets in. I am not making excuses, just trying to explain how things happened/felt for me.

My H and I are in recovery and doing really well thus far. I made a HUGE mistake, crossed many boundaries and have to live with that for the rest of my life. And to think that one day, I will be face-to-face with God...scares the "you know what" out of me. I am trying to do everything to make it right and find out where my weaknesses are.

Basically I am trying to be a better person - the person I want to be.

See you all later - have a great day.

Sad,

Ok, this stinks - I just lost everything I typed - the internet went off. RATS!!!

Well anyway. Good thing I can type fast. There's been so many posts....just give us a quick bio of what happened...why you did what you did...what you were feeling...if you knew the person....did you break it off...or were you found out? How you felt when it ended.....what you think your H is feeling? What you are going thru. Addiction??? Were you happy when you were having the A? Did you love your husband inspite of having an A???

We all make mistakes...that's what makes us human. This thread is the only one I come to because of this small group of ladies. I consider them my good friends...not just some people to talk to on MB - they are smart, understanding, considerate, have compassion and funny. We talk about many things other than just serious stuff. Feel free to join us.

Got to go out and find a trampoline - that's all my daughter talks about every day. Talk to you all later.

F&L - Ok, here goes....

Quick Bio. XOM was someone I work with (in another bldg. we never run into each other). His only son was killed 18 months ago and I reached out to him. I felt such compassion and sorrow for this man. His ONLY child. Quickly things turned very sexual through emails, and such. It was extremely exciting but I felt very dirty. However, I craved the attention that this XOM was giving me. (At the time I worked FT, my H was in school F/T and held a P/T job - we NEVER saw eachother). Not an excuse, just letting you know the sitch back then. After close to a year I told my H that I had an EA with him. I was too ashamed to tell him about the PA (mostly oral sex, me giving the XOM - INTERCOURSE NEVER HAPPENED). Then I found this website and it has literally changed my life.

After read posts for months, I decided, with God's help to tell my H every detail. So I did. Bad times, really bad.

I was pregnant with our second DD when this A started. Pretty gross, huh?

It's only ben a month since Radical Honesty, but it's a start and we're doing really well.

When I was in the middle of my A, it felt like an addiction and YES I still loved my H, however, I honestly thought I was in love with XOM. Even though he told me countless times, "You're a distraction...."

My stomach hurts just writing this and reliving in my mind. But I want to help you guys.

Bottom line is my H and I had VERY bad communication since we married in 99. Our schedules were completely different, and I recently realized that one of my most important EN is the need for admiration. Something I wasn't getting from my H, and the XOM provided (for a little while anyway).

I will write more later, but hope this is a good start for you.

God bless.

Hi everyone,

Just checking in to let you know I'm around. I have been trying to catch up, but have been busy at work with some training the last couple days.

So much to comment on but not sure where to start. Glad to see that Sad&confused is back==thanks for your point of view and I hope that we can help each other out.

CT is similar to NJ--There are no state liquour stores. you have to go to a liquour store (also called Package Stores here, for some unknown reason) to buy alcohol, except that you can buy beer and only beer in grocery stores. There are no liquor sales on Sunday period--not in a grocery, liquor or convenience store. Restaurants need a liquour license to sell any type of alcohol.

That's all I have time for now. Glad that everyone is doing well...

Afternoon everyone!

S&C--it's nice to hear from you again. We're glad we didn't come off like a pack of wolves before. It is nice to hear your point of view, because there are so many things about my H's A that make no sense at all to me, and I am really struggling to "get it."

One thing eats at me, and maybe you can help me with this. During the A (which lasted a year!!!!!!!) my H was very distant with me. He avoided me a lot when he was home, and when I would try and talk to him, I got these really monotone, monosyllabic replies. We had SF TWO TIMES that whole year, despite many attempts by me to initiate things. He constantly put me off. I really felt like a single mom many times, and it was rough on me. Now I think back on so many aspects of that time, and I wonder: was he avoiding me because of his guilt, or was he avoiding me because he was so caught up with OW that he just didn't want me around at all? It still is devestating to me to remember . . . . Anyway, maybe you had some similar scenarios and you can help me with this.

Know also that I respect you very much for the steps you are taking to make things right in your M. I know my H carries a weight around in the pit of his stomach all the time. He has suffered much because of what he did, and regret doesn't begin to describe it for him. I'm sure you feel the same way. It is a hard way back for all of us, but it is nice to have support here, and I know God helps us also.

Anyway, got to get back to work! I will check back in a bit.

-C.

S&C,

Ditto for me what CSJ said....I commend you for being honest with your H. My H's PA lasted 9 mos and he acted similarly to CSJ's H in that he was distant, stayed away from home, put me down and would start arguments (I think now it was a way to justify his A, to make me seem like a bad person)...For him, he says it was just sex, and he never stopped loving me. Never intended to leave me and his kids, just didn't think of the consequences of his actions.

My H realizes now that this was the biggest mistake of his life and the guilt still eats away at him...like CSJ, I'd appreciate any comments in this regard.

Take care everyone,
MF

Sad,

It seems we all have one thing in common - our husband's wanted to avoid us. My used to shuffle papers every night or be in his office - he said he wasn't avoiding me - but I sensed it - there was not doubt about it. My husband didn't even realize he was doing this. Why do you distance yourself from the spouse during your affair? My husband said he didn't love the OW - as I think it is in all our situations.

My husband also said he felt sorry for the OW. Does feeling sorry for someone lead you into an affair? If you felt dirty - why did you continue? My husband did the same thing - he got deeper and deeper into the relationship - didn't know how to end it - he didn't want to hurt the OW.

Did you feel your husband was a stronger person than the OM - in my case my husband thinks I am stronger - so he didn't feel sorry for me.

I always tell everyone communcation is so important in a marriage - that was our biggest problem - my husband never wanted to discuss any of his problems with me - he held things inside -but yet he discussed it with the OW.

Did your husband pay less attention to you because you were pregnant and the OM complimented you? I know when you're pregnant you need that constant feeling that you are attractive, etc.

Well, I've got to take the trampline out of the trunk....talk to you girls later.

F&L--

So you got the trampoline, huh? We had one when we were kids, and it was probably pretty good exercize. Luckily none of us suffered from any serious injuries, but we had plenty of near misses. Good times . . . <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

We had a trolley system that went over our pool and you could hang on this trolley thing and drop into the pool from like 10 feet above! Provided you didnt hit the side of the pool it was pretty fun!

I tried to get my kids a trampoline for xmas but got vetoed. They have all those nets around them!? Whats goingto happen? They fall on each other? Nothing more than is happening everyday in the house!

I will write more later when I get a chance. I had a bad day yesterday and need to vent it all out.

Have a great morning.
HF

Hi All,

Yes, I managed to get the trampoline....the guy in the store put it in the car for me. I couldn't even push it in the trunk - very heavy - must weigh 150 lbs. in the box.

My daughter's boyfriend took it out of the car and set it up for us while the girls were in confirmation practice (the oldest is her sponsor). He's the nicest young man, manners, thoughtful, intelligent - would do anything for my daughter. When they came back they all jumped on the trampoline - my youngest was squealing - they had a lot of fun. It's going to rain here the next couple of days - so it won't get a lot of use.

Hopinfor...my kids would flip out if they had something like that for the pool...I'd even like that. The girls and I are all "water bugs". All my kids have been in the water since they were little. My husband doesn't really get excited about the water - he's originally from the city - so he never learned to swim - so it doesn't really get him excited. But, he does like to jump in the pool in the summer on a hot day.

You don't have to get the nets around the trampoline - that's extra - I think a lot of bugs will get trapped inside the net enclosure -we have ours in the back where there's a lot of trees. We hate bugs! You should only have one kid on the trampoline at one time - or they will hurt each other.

Hopingfor....Are you feeling better. It seems we take turns feeling bad.

Well, I've got lots of stuff to do for my daughter's confirmation....Saturday we'll be having a buffet dinner for the family and some other people...so I've got a ton of stuff to buy and set up. I'm making all Italian food (that's what my daughter wants)...meatballs, baked ziti, chicken & artichokes, sausages & peppers and kolbaszi and sauerkraut - I know that not Italian but we love it - we'll also have all the other salads. I always have leftovers - I always make far too much...too bad I couldn't fly some over to you girls.

Well, talk to you later...

Hi ladies,

Boy, F&L, you are making me hungry thinking of all of that good food. Yummy!! My kids would love a trampoline too.

Sadnconfused, I have another question for you==I see that your A lasted almost a year--a very long time...As I said above, my H's A lasted for 9 mos...Another thing that eats away at me is how this could continue for so long?!? He said that having sex with her became a convenience -- basically like you said your OM said, a distraction. I think he felt trapped after a while--she started to make demands on him to be with her more--originally she was OK with just having sex w/ him, knowing he was married with 2 kids and a pregnant wife. Then she fell in love, and wanted him with her all the time... When he would try to break it off w/ her, she would make him feel guilty==he says he had feelings for her and cared for her, but it was not love...Did you ever try to break it off with OM, but then get back into the A? He had tried to distance himself from her, but always ended up coming back. He was still having sex with her up until the last day. The longest time they were apart was right after our DD was born, for about 2 wks that he was home from work (she was a coworker). But when he went back to work, he went right back to her. He probably saw her during that time--just won't admit it to me. He used to talk to her on his cell all the time, but now says that alot of the time, they were arguing on the phone--she would be mad that he was w/ me and his family, and would be trying to get him to come see her.. Did you feel that push and pull also? He says, he had no peace with either of us, that it made him more stressed, angry at himself, depressed. He was terrified that I would find out, and just constantly in a state of anxiety.

HF,
I'm sorry you had a bad day yesterday...I'll be checking back for your story, so please vent here when you have a chance. We are having such rain for the next few days, that we have to be careful to not let it get us too depressed...Today I overslept because it was so gray and dark out...

Take care,
Mamafish

MF,

I think your children are too small for the trampoline. It's for kids 10 & up. They are dangerous if the kids are left unattended. Maybe when they get a bit older.

Yeah, it's going to get rain here too - it was thundering before. I told you I was a good cook. My ex-husband's mom taught me Italian, my dad taught me Euorpean, and my M-I-L taught me Spanish cooking. We all love to eat, especially pasta - so I cook a ton of food. That's one thing my husband loves about me. I told you he said I made him gain weight so other women wouldn't look at him. Yes, I forced him to eat!!!

MF...I was lucky enough that I found out about the A before my husband's got as intense as your husband's. My husband was only in the PA part for about 2 months - but 2 times - that he admits to. The whole EA and PA lasted about 5-6 months. He did a lot more talking with her than anything else. I think if the OW wasn't such a predator, nothing probably would have happened.

Sad and Confused..I'm not saying all OW are predators..but the OW in our case was/is nothing but a slut - she's done this many times before.

I was the one that told him to stop immediately and he went the next day and told the OW. But, knowing the OW's history - I know she would have been needling him all the time to be with her more as the time progressed.

She claimed too, that she fell in love with him the first time she saw him - yeah, what a bunch of crap - I'd like to know how you treat someone that you love, the way she did! She loved him so much that 2 months later she was in a full blown affair with another married man. Well, that's love for you!

It must be very hard to keep that deep dark secret from your spouse and keeping all your stories straight. I wonder if after a while you forget who you said what to. I know my husband didn't know how to back out of the A, so he just stayed in it, getting deeper and deeper into it. He didn't want to hurt the OW's feelings, felt sorry for what he started. I guess my feelings didn't count.

The problem he had is the further away he distanced himself from the OW - the madder she got. The madder she got – the more vengeful she would get. Nothing is worse than a vengeful OW. I can still visualize her big nose and ugly wrinkley face. YUK! I hate to bite my tongue when I went into the office once - she was there and I felt embarrassed because I knew people knew they had a fling - I felt really stupid. I thought they were probably wondering why is she letting him work with the OW - is she an idiot? You don't know how I hated the two of them working together - even though the A was over. Used to make my blood boil!

Well, I vented for today. Going to see my dad.

Hi F&L,

How right you are about a vengeful OW...The more my H tried to back off her, the worst she got! You know now how extreme she is. But even during the A, he told me that one time he was speaking with a few coworkers--a couple female and one male--and she walked by and glared at him with an evil eye. Now, none of these people knew they were seeing each other, and one of the women said to him, She is looking at you like she is a jealous wife! That is how obvious she was when he would talk to anyone but her!

How do you keep your figure with all of that good cooking!! I guess it's all the yardwork and gardening, or do you exercise too? I'm thankful that I am naturally slender. Have been losing some weight lately due to all this stress. I just don't eat very much. This week, we have had training so we had lunch ordered in and then went to the boss's house for dinner. His wife made a huge pan of lasagna--10 people and only half was eaten. Along with that were sausage, meatballs, and garlic breat...Yum! And dessert was really good, easy and sugar free...she made it in the kitchen after dinner. She made chocolate crepes, rolled them up w/ pistachio pudding on the inside w/ some whipped cream and raspberries on top...very good..

I don't exercise...would like to but dont' have time...I should put the baby in the stroller and walk during the soccer practice, if it doesn't get rained out that is.

Enjoy your visit with your dad. Oh, I thought of you the other day when someone here at work brought lilacs in. they are out now up here. The whole office smells like lilacs, which I love, but everyone w/ allergies complained--lots of sneezing and watery eyes here...:)

Have a great day!

MF,

I know what you mean about looks - after my husband ended the A - my husband said something to someone else and she gave my husband a look like daggers were coming out of his eyes. The person said to my husband, "Did you see that look if looks could kill - you'd be dead!"

I've been lucky all my life that I never really gained weight - I think it's again from my dad's genes. My mom would look at food and gain weight. I've been between 110 & 118 all my life. When I got really depressed last summer - I went down to 105 at times. But, now I'm back at my regular weight - I'm around 115 now.
My old doctor said, if you don't gain weight by age 30 and after having several children - you don't have to worry about getting fat.

I eat like a pig - I guess I just burn it off. Everyone is always amazed at how much I can eat - I give my husband a run for his money, when it comes to eating. All my children have been also lucky to be thin. No one in either family has a weight problem. My oldest daughter is 5'4" about 115 lbs. and my 18 yr. old is 115 lbs. at 5'7". My 13 yr. old is about 4'11" and is only about 78 lbs.- she is so petite. The guys are also slim - one's about 5'11" and the other is 5'9". I'm the shrimp!

I never exercise - I don't find the time. I walk about 2 miles every couple of days though. My oldest daughter makes fun of me because I never exercise -she is an exercise nut - does about 500 sit ups and runs about 5 (maybe more miles) a day - before she goes to work. She's competitive in her running. She runs rain, snow, whenever. NOT FOR ME!!!I started to run last year (about 10 minutes) - I did it for a week - I bent down to pick up a piece of fuzz and I hurt my back - couldn't walk for 2 weeks. The doctor told me walking is good enough for me - running is too much stress on the legs and back.

Those crepes sound, mm....mm... good! I know how to make crepes - maybe I can figure out how to make that desert - I have your ingredients. I make good cheese cake. I'm a chocolate nut. Everyone gets me a box of Godiva chocolates for Xmas. I and my oldest daughter can never get enough of chocolate.

Talk to you later.

Afternoon everyone--

It's been a busy morning, whew! I had to run a court order out to a "nuisance yard" residence that we've been trying to get cleaned up for almost 2 years. Finally the Judge ordered the City to go on the property and haul all of the junk off. I've had so many neighbors call and complain on this, I can't even tell you. But the home owner has been so cantankerous. Then she yelled at me and called me a "skinny b***h". That's the nicest compliment I've had all day! It took me awhile to loose those last few pounds from DD2, but I think I'm there now! Apparantly the best diet is stress from a cheating spouse. Worked for me, anyway.

My H is leaving for a camping trip with his buddies this afternoon, so it will be a girl weekend for us. He'll be back Sunday morning so we can celebrate Mother's Day. Right after DDay, he was really trying his best to be home more, and had cut his "guy night" down to just Monday evening. But he has eased his way back to some old habits and hangs out with them for a bit almost every evening. He at least comes home early and we have time to talk and enjoy some time together, and that is better than before. I'm certainly not opposed to him having his friendships--he offered after DDay to stay home all the time, and I told him no. I know that he would be resentful of that--it would make him feel like I am his mother and he's grounded. I just want a good balance, you know? Have your time with you friends, but give your family the time we deserve, too. And right now, there are many times that I feel like a single mom--much like I felt during his A. This is just one of those stubborn points for him, I'm afraid. And if I push back, then I'm the bad guy. I don't want to make him be home--I want him to want to be home. I know we need to work on our connection with eachother, and maybe this nagging problem will fix itself.

I'm still trying to figure out what to make for dinner Sunday. Much of my H's family is out of town for his sister's college graduation in the New Orleans area. But we are having his grandparents over. Maybe I should borrow a page from you, F&L, and do Italian . . .

HF--how are you doing? We're here for you if you need a vent.

Well, back to work, I'll check back a bit later.

-C.

I find the fact that you're cooking on Mother's Day appaling. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You're right! Mention that little tidbit to my H, would you? The dinner party was his idea . . . <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I would suggest you not cook. He gets his day in June, no? Pamper yourself. Enjoy your kids. If you get hungry, order out, but don't cook. If he wants to cook, let him.

Hi everyone,

Drexxel,

You are very funny! Good to have the man's point of view on this thread! And what are your plans for Mother's Day? Will you be cooking dinner? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

CSJ,
Yes, the Cheating Spouse Diet...I think it will sell! We need to write a book--How to lose 20 lbs in just 2 weeks...and keep it off!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Save money on groceries--JUST DON'T EAT ANYTHING!

I know what you mean about wanting your H to want to stay home, rather than making him stay home....there is a big difference...Drexxel, maybe you can give us gals some advice here...why do some men feel that we are trying to control them when we want them to stay home? My H feels like he's a man, he can go out when he wants. Meanwhile, I am home w/ the kids doing all the usual stuff (kitchen cleanup, baths, bedtime, etc)...I never go out w/ friends for a ladies night or anything like that. I also don't mind if he goes out for a while with his friends. I prefer if I know in advance so I already know that I 'll be on my own. How do we get our Hs to understand this instead of being defensive about it??

F&L,

My genes have been good to me also. My mother is so thin that she has to try to gain weight--it has always been a problem for her. I am not really trying to lose weight--would like to stay at this weight so my clothes fit! It is really nice to wear my capris and jeans again, instead of maternity clothes like I did last spring! I do not run...that is not for me. I used to do an aerobics tape years ago and got really into it, but haven't done much since the kids were born.

That dessert was very simple==if you know how to make crepes, I don't...These were chocolate. And she used sugarfree jello pistachio pudding for the filling...You could use just about any flavors, and it looked very elegant. It was very quick to put together--a couple of us helped her in the kitchen.

I'm also a chocolate fanatic. That is my downfall. My H always buys me Godiva chocolates. I savor them--these are not for the kids!

Hopingfor,

Hope your day is going better. I'll check back to see if you vented yet...

Hi,

If we don't cook on Mother's Day - how is everyone going to eat???? If my husband cooks dinner...well, I don't think people want hot dogs or packaged noodle soup for Mom's Day - just not the same as the usual dinners! Sorry, Drexxell, my husband gets treated like King Tut. Yes, I know, I did spoil him.....that's one of my bad faults.

You know girls, we may have something here - a new diet - I also lost about 15 lbs. in 2 weeks - no other diet works like that. I think I would rather have the extra pounds, instead of all the heartache.

I never cared if my husband went out...as long as I knew where he was (in case of an emergency) and I knew about what time he was coming home. What my husband did several times was go out and say he was coming home at a specific hour and just not call me to say he was coming home later. So I would be wondering if he was just goofing around or he was lying in a ditch on the side of the road - this was before he had a cell phone. The other trick is he turns his cell phone off - when he doesn't want me to call him.

Guys are all alike....it is time for you Drexxell to speak up!

MF..I saw your picture...you look like your thin....don't have anything to worry about. People put too much emphasis on being thin - all those models on tv - eat nothing and do nothing but keep themselves in shape - they have personal trainers, etc. - they have the money - this is what we are all supposed to look like. Put those models in or life - let's see what they would look like. As I’m typing this – Oprah has a segment about a housewife who is Anorexic. I can’t live without my pasta and bread. If I don’t make pasta twice a week, my girls get upset.

I hide my Godiva chocolates - they are mine only....hide them on the top shelf….I even steal my daughter’s (the ones her boyfriend gets her). When we go into NY during the summer - we always go to the Godiva shop on 5th Ave. Lindt chocolates are good too.

Well, I’ve got to go – have to bring my daughter to confirmation practices….. and guess what – it’s Wednesday – so we’re having PASTA with homemade sauce!

Okay, my H had flowers delivered to the office a bit ago for Mother's Day! He signed the card "Love me"--how sweet is that? Bless his little heart, anyway.

-C.

Okie, I'll try to let you see into my brain, but don't get scared. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Yes, I'm cooking on Sunday. I cook the other 6 days of the week too. I'm a SAHD, remember? Not for long, though. I just enrolled in college and will be starting the SUMMER I semester for 2005/2006.

Why do guys have to go out and spend time with their friends? I think recreational companionship covers most of that. Sorry, ladies, but if you're not into drinking beer, arm wrestling, horking loogies, sports, farting and burping, you might not fit in with a night out with the boys. I know that sounds generic, and truely it is. Guys are raised that that's how they're supposed to behave when they're grown. It's your job to give them a reason to change that behavior, because that's all it is is a life long habit.

Sooooo, suggest that one night out of the week, instead of him going out with his beer drinking farting buddies, he keeps his noxious evil twin locked up and takes YOU out drinking. Just one night a week. Or one night every other week. But by God, when he agrees and you go out, you'd better make sure you two have a fabulous time or he won't want a repeat performance.

I dunno if you all remember from one of my earlier posts about leading a horse to water, but I'll redo it here.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Very common phrase, right? The not so common next part is, If you salt his oats enough, you'll make him want to drink more. Salt his oats? What? If you sit down with a bag of chips, what else do you almost always have? A drink.

When you ask hubby for a drinking date, that's leading him to water. He's likely to follow along the conversation because he feels he's got a bit in his mouth. He may even look at you like you've grown a second head when you ask him. And don't make excuses as to why you can't do it either.

What you do between asking him and actually getting the committment from him to go with you or take you out is salting his oats. You're not "making" him drink. You're "making" him thirsty. Do you remember how you flirted with him when you were dating? Of course you do. Do it. That perfume that drinves him nuts? Wear it. Leave little notes hidden in his briefcase or wallet or in his shoe. Salt his oats. If he's across the room and you're talking to a friend, say something complimentary about him and make sure you say it loud enough for him to hear it. Depending on where you are in your R, it could range from, "His shoulders are so strong." to "He really makes me burn with desire." See if he doesn't stand up straight and strut around for a few minutes. Salt his oats.

Now, it's your turn for giving advice. FWW is pretty much unreceptive to gifts. Not that I've spent a great deal of money on them, mind you. Just thought, consideration, etc. i.e. (And I'll bet most Hs can't remember this) The flowers in her bridal boquet were white (John Kennedy) roses. Her bridesmaids had Stargazer Lilies. Soooo, the florist is next to the cleaners I use. When I get the cleaning, I stop and get a single stem. Usually a white rose, have it wrapped with baby's breath and I put that in a bud vase on her night stand.

Come to find out, she doesn't want gifts of that sort "right now". Makes her uncomfortable. Makes her feel smothered. (rolls eyes) She doesn't mind me being affectionate, most of the time, although there's not any smooching or SF (agonizing).

She has a promotion ceremony that I'm attending today. Says she doesn't want any gifts. Now, am I going to be in trouble if I don't get her anything? (ponders)

Hi Drexxel,

My H also does most of the cooking, except during his A, I would expect that he would cook and would come home to an empty house, no dinner. Then I would have to try to scramble to make something for supper. He is a great cook. I know he will be cooking something for dinner, but not sure what.

As for your W's attitude towards your very romantic gifts, I think that you should give her "something" for her promotion, but make it something more practical than romantic...Maybe something that she could use at work--a planner, something for her desk, etc...More of a keepsake to celebrate the promotion. Not sure what she does, but something related to that would be better right now. So she doesn't feel smothered, as she says.

I read the book "The Five Love Languages" recently. It is by Gary Chapman. I would recommend this to you in light of your W saying she doesn't want gifts from you now...It is about how we all have our own love language that we speak...how we feel loved by our Spouse, and how we show our love to our spouse. The 5 languages are Acts of Service, Quality Time, Physical touch, Gifts, and words of admiration. You can go to www.fivelovelanguages.com to get the idea, but in an nutshell, if your love lang is different from your spouse, you may be expressing your love in a way that your spouse does not feel...I.e. If you show your love by gifts, and your W' s love language is to hear words of affirmation, she will not feel loved by your gifts, but will feel loved when you tell her how you appreciate her. If you read this book, you can figure out your language and your W's. There is a real quick questionnaire at the back of the book to do this.

I understand what you are saying about salting our H's oats too. This sums it up for my M. He felt rejected by me because I was too focused on the kids and working full time, and doing housework. He says he felt like he didn't matter to me, I didn't show him any affection. It was a vicious cycle...He stopped talking to me and was hardly at home, and so I withdrew from him also.. He says he got tired of hearing, not now, I'm tired, etc. .I took him for granted in that way, and so when the OW came on to him, he fell for it...Hard...She was 14 yrs younger than him, and he was so flattered by the attention. He felt like "I've still got it". I have taken responsibility for what I did in the pre-A M, but that didn't give him the right to have the A...He now understands that this was his choice to deal with the M problems by trying to find someone else to provide SF when he thought I didn't want to. Lots of miscommunication, and living separate lives...After DDay, when I made a conscious effort to show him affection and SF, he came around pretty quickly. He said he was amazed at the difference, and sorry that he made such a big mistake.

Talk to you all later.. Gotta get some work done first.

MF,

I have that book. It's on top of my stack of books to read. I want to say I read it years ago, but without getting back into it, I won't know for sure. WW used to dote on me about bringing her a flower. I still think I'm going to get in trouble if I show up with a gift of any kind. LOL

You gals make me sick with all the bragging about SF. :P LOL Buncha show offs. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I just want to add, though, for men, being rejected by their wives for SF is a TREMENDOUS blow to their self esteem and self worth. Ladies, beware. If you turn him down, someone else will turn him on.

I'm not your typical husband. Please understand. While I understand that SF is important in a M (don't get me wrong, I love SF) right now my affections and my love are unrequited. Emotionally, I couldn't do it and I believe just going through the motions is a horrible thing to do. And that's assuming that she was interested in SF right now, which she isn't. Knowing how much of a sexual creature she is, that kind of scares me too.

I know you all will understand that I don't reveal all my deepest feelings and thoughts on here to you. I save those for my wife. There isn't anyone else on the planet that get's that close to me. But feel welcome to ask how I feel about something. If I don't want to answer it, I'll tell you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Best wishes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey everyone
I just wanted to check in with you all quickly. I have posted a couple of times in the past day or so and lost both of them! Anyway I am sick with some sort of bug so I am going to lay down but wanted to let you all know I am still alive.
Speak with you all soon. Have a good day!
HF

Drexxel,

You are still very early in the recovery process. SF will happen, when you are BOTH ready for it...You can't rush it. I didn't realize that my H felt rejected...It certainly was not my intention at all, and believe me, I have learned a very difficult lesson as a result.

I also think you should give her something for a gift today, maybe just not one that she would interpret as too romantic... It's hard as a BS to realize that the FWS is also in a lot of pain, just a different type of pain. I cannot imagine the guilt that is weighing my H down.

I appreciate your answering our questions, and I understand that you are not revealing your utmost feelings to us--the only person you should be that close to is your wife, as it should be...but it is nice to have the man's point of view all the same...

Hopingfor,

Sorry you are sick, I hope you get some rest and feel better. I have been thinking of you so thanks for stopping by....

Everyone,

Have a great Mother's Day weekend!

Hi Everyone,

Just want to wish all my pals a Happy Mother's Day. Give the kids an extra hug for me...don't fight/LB with your hubbys or wives...just enjoy the weekend.

CSJ...it's nice of your hubby to send you flowers. My husband asked what I wanted for Mom's Day...I told him all I wanted was for him to be a good boy and treat me nice....I couldn't ask for more.

Drexxell....be good to your wife this weekend. Show her your are the best.

Hoping For....feel better...keep your spirits up.

Sad and Confused...write back...have a nice weekend.

I don't have much time, I am cooking up a storm....between banana cake, cupcakes, cheese cake and all the Italian food ...salads....can make some of the stuff ahead of time...I'm busy as heck. I love to cook...it gives me such a feeling of accomplishment when eveyone loves my food...but they expect that. I don't mind cooking, but I get so many pots and pans...endless things to wash. Have to clean the house.

MF..I got your message...will send you the recipes when I get a chance. I know what you mean about people saying your thin...all the heavy people that I used to work with used to say...you're so skinny...why are you trying to lose weight...you're 98 lbs. soaking wet....mind you they were all close to 200 lbs. and about as tall as me.

The sun came out for my daughter's confirmation...got to go. Have a good weekend.

CSJ,

I forgot to say that was so sweet of your H to send you flowers for Mother's Day....how thoughtful!

F&L,

Thanks for the reminder not to LB this weekend. Will try to enjoy the weekend. It is still pouring here, but I'm glad the sun came out for you. Maybe we will have some sun tomorrow...Don't try to clean it all up yourself after dinner...recruit some people to give you a hand...

Take it one day at a time, everyone...

Good afternoon everyone!

It's my lovely Friday routine again--laundry, vaccuum, groceries, lunch for the kids, and a quick bite for me while DD2 naps and DD1 watches a little tv.

Drexxel, I had a similar experience with my FWH recently. He graduated with his MPA, and I wanted to get him something special--I really am so proud that he has accomplished this. So I brought the subject of his gift up so I could make sure I was getting him the truck box he wanted for his new truck. He just responded, "don't get me anything." I was really hurt that he would just toss aside my attempt to do something nice for him. Finally, I decided to talk to him about it. I think he saw the gift as something he didn't deserve, because of all the hurt and damage from his A. Your W probably feels much the same way. She doesn't think she is worthy of a gift from you. But I gently explained to my H that his refusal to accept a gift made me feel like my attempt to do something great for him wasn't good enough. And this is a bad trigger for me, because that's how I felt all during his A. I wasn't good enough, dinner wasn't good enough, my dress wasn't cute enough . . . the list goes on and on.

Anyhow, once I explained this to him, he told me to go ahead and get him his truck box. In your case, the truck box might not go over as well . . . <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But I like MF's idea of something special that she could use with her job. I would go ahead and just get it for her, and then explain to her why it's important for you to commemorate her accomplishment. I'm sure she'll be really touched.

HF--sorry to hear that you're under the weather. Hope you get feeling better real soon--in time to enjoy Mother's Day would be nice!

For our Mother's Day dinner, I decided on BBQ shrimp and scallops, as these will be very easy, but yummy too. For desert we'll do key lime pie, because it is one of my favorites, and since it's "my day" I don't mind if anyone else likes it or not!

Have a great day, everyone!

-C.

Happy Mother's Day to all of your wonderful Moms!!!

Thank you for letting me in "your club"....means a lot.

I will try to post some over the weekend. Not having a very good day today at all.

Happy Mother's Day!

Hey Sad & Confused,

We are here for you, girl...Keep your chin up...It is a long road but it is worth it. Just hang in there. It WILL get better, I promise you...

Happy Mother's Day!

Thanks, I just love you all of you guys!!! You have welcomed me with open arms. If I were in your shoes, I'm not so sure I could do that.

Anyone live near Charlotte, NC?

You have a good Mother's Day too - you deserve it!

Okie. Kids and I are back from the promotion thing for WW. I did end up getting her a gift. Thoughtful, but not romantic. See, she's in the military. Officers have this thing they do where they carry a coin around. There are lots of different kinds of coins, but as long as you have one in your pocket, you're ok. Cause if someone does a "coin check" where they pull out their coin and slam it down on the table, every one else has to do the same. The booger head without a coin has to buy everyone a round of drinks after work or wherever they are. Last weekend, WW and I were out and someone did a coin check. She didn't have her coin. Fortunately, I had mine. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> At any rate, I bought her a coin denoting her new rank.

As we (the kids and I cause WW had to stay to finish work) were leaving, WW initiated a hug. This is crutial. She hasn't done this since D-Day. She'll hug me back kinda sorta when I hug her. Or if we're dancing, she'll hug me back after we finish a song, but this was crutial. She initiated it and hugged me TIGHT. Then she whispered, "Thanks for coming." I only said, "I wouldn't have missed it."

Ladies, I know it's early for us and I keep talkin about SF, but seriously, it's agonizing. I really don't think you understand. If you want to see a face of shock and depression almost instantly, go to your Hs and tell them that you have some uncurable illness and you can't have SF for an undetermined amount of time.

I'm not saying men are that shallow. And likely, if your Hs are worth anything, what they "say" will be something to the effect of "I loved you before we ever made love. I loved the way your eyes could pierce my soul and see things in me I didn't know I could do. I loved the way you held my hand. I loved the magic of your kiss and the way your perfume intoxicated me. I still love those things now. I'm here for you."

BUT, at the same time he's saying that, watch the color drain out of his face. Of course, he won't think it's too funny when you tell him you were running an experiment, but you get the picture.

Sunday we're doing a picnic. Sandwiches, fried chicken, jello. All that kinda stuff. It's supposed to rain, though, so we might have to spread the picnic blanket out on the floor. Can't play frisbee in the house though. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Sad, I live in SC, relatively close to where you are. I'd rather not get more specific than that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Before I was a SAHD I ran restaurants for years. I love to cook, but I'm burned out of doing it for other people for a living. That doesn't mean I'm not full of tips and secrets so, while I'm no Martha Stewart, I wield a mean spatula. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> You got questions, I prolly got answers.

Gotta get going soon. Spaghetti tonight. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Want to try something new and see if your family notices? Instead of salting the water for your pasta, add chicken or beef bouillon. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Okay, kids are tucked in to bed, and H is still camping tonight with the guys. So I've got a bit of time to check in here and see what's new for today.

The girls and I had a fun afternoon and went to a farm/petting zoo nearby where the kids got to help milk a cow, feed baby goats, and ride a pony. They had a blast!

Welcome back, S&C! Sorry to hear that you're not having a good run today. Come here and vent--we'll help if we possibly can. With all these heads to put together, we're bound to have a good idea or two.

And I'm out in Utah--not near NC, sorry.

Drexxel-It sounds like the promotion ceremony was a real success for both of you. Chalk that one up as a win!

And believe me, I know the SF thing is awful. These ladies have been really helping me get my "groove" back in that regard. Just keep making those "love bank" deposits, and it will come. For women, it's all about the foreplay. And that means different things to different women, depending on what her EN's are. You know your wife best. Just keep on doing the things you know mean the most to her. She will get there!

But I gotta tell you, you are a poet, as evidenced by this:

"I loved you before we ever made love. I loved the way your eyes could pierce my soul and see things in me I didn't know I could do. I loved the way you held my hand. I loved the magic of your kiss and the way your perfume intoxicated me. I still love those things now. I'm here for you."

LOL, my H would never say this, not in 1,000,000! I'm sure the thought would be there inside, somewhere. I married a cowboy, what can I say? Maybe you could give my H some sensitivity lessons or something?

And you stirred a memory! Years ago, I worked for a guy who had been professionally trained as a chef. He always said to put chicken base in water when making rice, or whatever. I had forgotten all about that!

Anyhow, have a great weekend, all!

-C.

I haven't been on this thread before but Drex and I post to each other a lot. I know the lack of SF is especially hard for the male. You know you and I found out just two days apart and honestly I don't know where FWH and I would be if he had not wanted SF with me. For me, that was what really brought us back together on all levels. Maybe that is why your W is still having such a hard time. Maybe she needs to know that there are BS who needed SF from the wayward spouse. Maybe she is afraid you don't really want her or will have to stop it w/o completion b/c you'll be flooded by images that stop you. I know I'm rambling but you get my drift. I think the SF coming back is important so you can replace all the bad memories with new ones and so the SF you're thinking about is with your spouse, not them thinking of other person or you thinkiing of them with OP.

CSJ, My H would very rarely speak like that either. It takes all kinds.

Drex, I'm impressed with the cooking info. Didn't know you had that talent. I'm so not a cook. I do a mean take out!

Hiya again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

csj, thanks for your kind words and encouragement. It helps knowing I have friends I can vent to sometimes.

March, Welcome to the csj board. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I didn't know when I posted here that it was all women!! I'm certain to find some sound advice here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Yes, March and I post back and forth. Our D-Days are 2 days apart, have similar histories. The major difference is that she and her H are well along into recovery and congrats to them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Turns out I may know why SF isn't happening and things are so tense. I discovered yesterday that the NC that I thought was in place isn't. I think if I hadn't been emotionally prepared for what I would find, it would have been like D-Day all over again. I won't say what specifically I found or how I found it in the event that she's reading (Hi Sweetie), but I found it all the same.

I was very quiet for a while, mulling over what to say, how to say it, etc. Finally she asked what was wrong and I confronted her. Basically all she had to say was that she was in love with him and didn't want to give him up. I told her this condition of NC wasn't negotiable. I told her every time she talked to him that she and I started back at square one. Told her she couldn't see the love I was giving her because she was in love with this fantasy, with this married man who wasn't going to leave his wife... because she hadn't seen all his warts etc.

At this point, I told her I was ready to spew venom and I was very angry and I thought we shouldn't talk for a while lest I say something I'd regret later. She got up and left the room. She was going to go take a drive until she discovered that her adoring husband had put her cell phone and keys in a place where she couldn't find them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

She asked, "Where's my phone?!" I said, "I'm not going to tell you." She asked again, "Where's my phone?!" back and forth three times. Finally I told her, "If you think I'm going to enable your affair by giving you your phone so you can call OM, think again." That ended that conversation.

Then it was the car keys. "You have no right to take them from me!" I said, "I have to right to prevent you from going somewhere where you can call OM? I have no right to prevent you from carrying on your affair?" That ended that conversation.

So, she goes for a walk. 2 minutes into the walk, it starts thunderstorming. Soooo, I go get in my car and go look for her. Find her walking along in the rain. She gets in the car. She says, "I could have come home. I chose not to." I said, "I know. I could have stayed home. I chose not to."

So then, we're not really talking to each other much. I make dinner (chef salad yummy!), she finishes and heads off upstairs without a word. Hmmm. I go to see what she's up to and she's gone to MY side of the bed, picked up SAA and started reading. Interesting... I asked her if she wanted to be alone and she said me sitting there wouldn't bother her, so I picked up the next book on my stack and started reading.

A little while later she says, "Where's that workbook? The one with the emotional needs questionaire in it? I'm curious." Now I'm thinking the alien that replaced my abducted wife has been abducted and replaced with a new species of alien! I get the workbook (been trying to get her to do the ENQ for a while now) and we do that together and talk about it.

There came a point where she started talking about what she really feels, started crying, talking about the guilt she's been carrying. Guys, if you're reading this, THIS IS THE POINT WHERE YOU SHUT UP! I let her talk... let her cry... Just let her get a bunch of stuff out. Finally, we laid down and she curled up on my chest! Even with yesterday's discoveries, that's the happiest I've been since D-Day. I held her so tight and told her I would always be there for her. She caressed my chest some and we just had some quiet time.

Eventually, she rolled over (not accustomed to sleeping like that) and I curled up behind her. Amazing how last night ended like that.

As far as the NC thing goes, don't anybody flame me. I'll post more on that part later this afternoon. Everyone, I hope you had a great Mother's Day and I hope today is even better!

Best wishes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Good morning everybody,

Welcome March 27th….

The Confirmation for my daughter went great. The actual event had standing room only - church was packed - I stood in the back - took my 4" heals off - feet were killing me. Went home with everyone and had cake & coffee. I was so tired I feel asleep on the couch.

Got up early Saturday and cooked my butt off. By the afternoon my neck and back were killing me - I have osteoarthritis - from 2 serious accidents to my neck & back - as you get older you develop scar tissue. No old jokes – I know I’m the oldest one in this bunch.

The hot snacks, 5 entrees went - everyone devoured the food- we had about 15 people over. I was glad - everyone loved the food as usual - I outdid myself - this makes me feel good. Guys drank beer and played football outside - the sun came out for my daughter. She jumped all day on her new trampoline with her friend. By the time everyone came over my neck and back were hurting and felt like it was on fire…..but I had a couple of glasses of wine and by nighttime it felt better.

My childhood friend was able to make it. We were in the kitchen - a couple of us ladies talking "girl talk". A young woman who we have known since she was 12 - gave me some bad news - she suspects her husband of cheating - they've only been married 5 yrs. My heart broke for her - I've known her since she was a little girl. The things she told me - it definitely sounded like he was cheating.

She said if she finds out for sure - that she would file for divorce. She thinks it's that easy. Her mother lives in Florida and is also having problems with her step-dad – he was “making time” with a friend of the family – some friend – huh?

I told my husband about what she had told me - he said how could he do that to her???? I guess it was ok for him to do it to me - I am stronger in his mind.

Drexxell.....my dad used to do all the cooking when I was a kid....my mom was an awful cook. I guess I learned from my dad – I got mostly everything from my dad. It's great when a guy cooks. You know the old expression...."A woman's fantasy - 2 men - one to cook and one to clean". Haa..Hee..Hee!

All you people…. SF will come in time to all of you - everyone has their own time frame. My D-day was before all of you – I think – June 05. I found it very hard to have SF in the beginning because I would picture the OW in my husband's arms. But, I did it anyway - I guess to prove he had it better at home - sometimes I would cry though.

And, yes drexxell....if I told my husband that he couldn't have SF for a certain amount of time...he definitely would get that ghostish look on his face. My husband doesn't care if I'm sick, have a headache, even when I had a broken foot, as long as I’m breathing - he thinks SF is the cure for everything - insists it will make me feel better.

Drexxell….don’t talk about NC is right….my husband worked with the OW for 10 months and I put up with that – I had no choice.

I just realized I’m going to that Disco Ball on 6/10/05 with my oldest daughter– that’s my D-Day – could this mean something?

My husband doesn't say romantic stuff either and he's a city boy. It's very hard to even get complimenting words out of his mouth - he's just not that way - never has been. If he bought me flowers or a card for no reason - I’d be shocked - I'd definitely know something is wrong. And if by some chance he cooked dinner for me without being asked - well this would probably never happen - it would be "gourmet" hot dogs or canned Progresso soup - he makes this very well. But, I've learned to accept him the way he is - it doesn't bother me. I love my husband the way he is.

He was very nice to me on Mom's Day - after I did 3 loads of laundry, cleaned up all the mess from the day before - he rubbed my neck and back for about 1/2 hour. My neck burns like it's on fire and hurts like heck when it bothers me. Later we ordered Chinese food - my daughter's boyfriend went to pick it up. He's such a sweet young man - he got me a giant card that said MOM and wrote a very warming note inside - bought me flowers and also paid for the Chinese food. He doesn't have a mom and dad - they died. So I treat him like he's my son - he eats over our house several times a week. He treats my daughter so good - I so happy he came into her life.

Well, I've got to go and get ready to go see my dad.

Welcome to Monday everyone....

March27th, Welcome to our board...I haven't read your thread/history but will try to do that later...Did you have a nice Mother's Day? I am in CT (nowhere near the South!)

Drexxel, I am very happy to hear of your progress with your W last night....that is a remarkable end to the story of your day...I did not expect that to be how it worked out when I started to read how there is still Contact. So that is very very promising for you...Your W probably read in SAA about how the A is a fantasy and that hit home for her. Especially if the OM is also married. I'm very happy to hear that you are doing the EN workbook....Congrats and keep the momentum going! You are right when you said when your W started to cry and talk, just to shut up. I have learned that when my H opens up like that, I let him just talk and listen to his pain instead of trying to get him to listen to my pain...

I understand what you are saying about men and SF, only I learned my lesson a very hard way...when I read SAA and HNHN, I saw my marriage in many scenarios...Over and over, the man had an A because he didn't feel needed;/appreciated by his W...SF had decreased due to the W caring for the kids and the house, and putting H's needs for SF last. This was my mistake. I see it now and wish I could turn back time, because I didn't understand it then.

At the time, I was going through a bad period of depression myself==I didn't feel like myself, turns out that I was pregnant and didn't realize it--so even though I didn't have the morning sickness, I was tired all the time and emotional...No energy at all after working full time and caring for 2 kids (2 and 4-1/2 yrs old), and my H worked graveyard shift over the weekends. So I was always taking care of the house, cleaning, laundry, cooking. When I found out I was pregnant, it was a relief because then I knew why I had been feeling that way. And we were excited because he especially wanted to have another baby.

Well in my situation (some of you have read this before so sorry for the repetitiveness), my H was feeling rejected by me because when he would initiate SF, I would be exhausted. Or he would come on to me when I was washing dishes, or doing chores...(See he was not home 4 nights a week due to his working)...I didn't know that there was a young unmarried coworker that had been flirting with him for about 6 mos...he is a flrt--he's from the South (VA Beach area) so is naturally charming (like Drexxel--only he doesn't speak as poetically <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )...He had not given in to this woman's "charms" until we had a huge fight. Then he went to work, very angy at me...she asked him "why don't you come home w/ me today?" when they got off work that next morning, and he said Ok. That was it. She knew he was married w/ 2 kids and a pregnant wife. She agreed w/ him that they would just meet and have sex, and that's all it was to them for a while...

My point is that I really was ignorant of my H's need for SF...The old cliche that if a man isn't getting enough at home, rang true for me. I wish my H had been able to talk to me about how this made him feel and that this had left him open to OW"s advances, before the A happened. This is why, after DDay, we did resume SF pretty quickly. Yes, it was hard for me to get the pictures out of my head...But I made myself do it because I wanted to feel desired by my H (never a problem he said), and I wanted him to forget about her. He had felt like I wasn't interested in him anymore, and felt rejected by me. So the LAST thing I wanted to do was to reject him for SF...I wanted to show him that I was interested, that I could be sexy for him, and he didn't need a younger woman to have good SF.


Drexxel, My H used to be a night kitchen manager for Shoneys' when he lived in VA...So he is also a great cook...He can whip up a great dinner out of nothing!! He does all the cooking in our house. I'm spoiled in that way!

S&C, Of course we welcome you here...We see your pain and we know that you are hurting just like we all are...It takes a lot of courage to post here as a FWS..I hope you are feeling better now, and had a good Mother's Day and weekend.

CSJ,
Countdown to your vacation with your H starts today...I hope you had a good Mother's Day==was he home from camping in time to celebrate with you?

Hopingfor,
How are you doing? Did you have a nice Mother's Day?

Forgive and Love,

Glad that your daughter's confirmation went well. Your daughter's boyfriend sounds like a great guy. I'm happy that she found someone so good to her (and to you )..I'm glad that you had a good Mother's Day and your H gave you a nice massage..

I'm sorry your friend's H cheated on her, but it was nice that you opened up to her so she knows she is not alone. See, you never know what goes on in people's marriages...

Well, gotta get to work now...Have a good day everyone...

Hi everyone
Still feeling a little under the weather. trucking through. I finally got my husband to post so hopefully he will take to heart what others who have been there know about what I am feeling.

I am beginning to feel like if he is not going to help me heal what the (*&^ am I doing sticking by him? I know I love him but would the world end actually end if I made him leave? Could it possibly be worse than all this pain and listening to him tell me to please be normal...I love you...everything is ok...nothing to worry about...believe me...

He is so sweet in so many ways but honestly those are just words and I have such a broken heart!

Anyway its on help...shes killing me if you want to check it out. He read the responses but I dont think he willbe back to write again.

Hope you allhad a good mothers day evenyou Drex!
HF

Ok. I'm back from all my running around today. Getting some housework done to boot. I went and had a chat with wife's commander. NC shouldn't be a problem now. He's very supportive. At this point, whether or not wife gets into trouble and loses her job is completely up to her. He's going to issue a no contact order sometime in the next 48 hours. A similar order will be issued to the OM from his commander. I don't know how wife is going to respond to that. She'll prolly be pizzed. Her commander and I actually passed her in the hallway while he was escorting me out of her work.

Anywho, I've got to get going and fulfill some more ENs. Talk with you all later. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for all the welcomes! I look foward to gettng to "know" you all and yes, I did have a nice Mother's Day. FWH was working but the kids were sweet. They were so happy to give me the things they made in Sunday School.
I have to do a quick comment to Drex...I'm on the way out..will be gone for the week...I'll have to set aside half a day when I get back to get caught up! As someone mentioned above, I was not excpecting the ending. I think this may be the turning point you've needed. I'm so glad she cuddled with you. I know you needed that. I think if she would just let herself go and be intimate with you some more walls would come down. Drex, you were brave to go to her commander. I know it had to be done. I hope she can understand.

Good afternoon everyone!

I was looking to see if HF had posted yet--usually you have some observation about Sunday's "Big Love" episode. I hope you're feeling better.

Welcome to March 27--I hope you and S&C check back in and give us an update on how you are doing. We need to make sure Drexxel has plenty of ladies around to give him advice. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It sounds like there were some good Mother's Day celebrations over the weekend! Ours was pretty low key. My H got home pretty early Sunday morning, but he seemed to be in kind-of a "funk." He gets that way sometimes--after I read "Men are from Mars" I decided the "going into the cave" metaphor fit him pretty well. In the past this hasn't bothered me--everyone has their bad days after all. And if I just let him work it out, he would come out of his "cave" in a day or so. Until his A. He stayed in that cave for a year, and now it makes me turn all cold inside when he gets that way. In the late afternoon he got in his car and drove off, didn't tell me where he was going. In the old days, I didn't worry at all, because I had such complete trust and confidence in him. But now???? It really ticks me off. We have talked about this issue, and I've explained about just letting me know where he is going, and a time frame of getting back. This is courteous--it is fair--I deserve it. But this is one of those stubborn points with him. He equates his ability to come and go with his independance, and he doesn't want to "report in" with me. He was only gone for a little over an hour--said he went to his friend's. Whatever. Some days I just feel too tired to talk about it.

I have very little confidence that certain things about him will ever change. I can keep trying, and I do believe that things can continue to improve. We have covered much ground since November--when I discovered his A. But the beautiful picture I had of my marriage has really lost it's luster. I guess all I can do is push forward, and hopefully we will arrive at a point where I don't feel that I have "settled" for something. I knew I hadn't married Romeo. I know he's not a good cook (hats off to you Drexxel <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ). He's not Socrates. I have never expected those things of him. He was, however, lots of other things that I loved. It remains to be seen, I suppose, how much of that can be put back together. But I promised myself when I made the decision to try and work this out to give him one year. Nothing hasty--give it time and effort and see where we are. That way I can see myself through the times when we go two steps forward and one back.

So Mother's Day was sort-of a downer for me. I think a big part is that holidays do highlight the problem for me. I can't help but think "this year at last time he was cheating on me . . ." But the girls made a cute card for me. Thank God for my kids.

I'll check back with you all later!

-C.

Hello to all,

Hopingfor, Glad to hear from you, as always. I will check out your H's thread. I hope he will continue to post.

Drexxel,

Wow...you surprised me again with going to your W's commander but I totally support you in that. Until I came on MB, I never knew such a thing existed in the military, but now I see it all over these boards. You are completely justified in doing that , and I hope your evening goes well. If your W saw you with her commander, she must know or suspect that you have exposed the A to him. Be strong...She may not be so welcoming to you tonight as she was last night. I hope I'm wrong. Kudos to you for doing that...Will look forward to reading more tomorrow. Good luck!

March 27th, Have a good week and I look forward to hearing more from you when you return.

CSJ,

Boy your H and Mine are like two peas in a pod...or maybe like two cavemen in a cave...He does the same thing...and I totally saw him when I read that Men are from Mars book too...Same mentality exactly...In fact, in our last MC session, our homework was for us to come up with a solution to this problem of him leaving me w/ the kids "to go get gas" or whatever, and not coming home for an hour. We came up with the solution for him to just tell me where he was going and to estimate how long he'd be gone, and to call if it was later...this didn't work out very well. He called the first couple of times, but that was it. Back to old habits...And I'm too tired most of the time to make an issue out of it too. It's a big LB for him anyway.

I'm feeling the same way you are, CSJ, about things not changing. I didn't set a time limit on it, but I did say that if I felt like I had done everything that I could do to save my M and it didn't work out, then I could leave with a clear conscience. During his A, I didn't know it was a competition. I feel like I didn't have a fair chance to win him back, or make any changes on my behalf...Now I can make the changes I need to be a better W and person...

As for the holiday thing, BIG BIG trigger for me too. I am always thinking, Last year he was with her...It's a tough habit to get out of...I thank God for my kids too. If it weren't for them, I'd be outta here...

Have a good night everyone!

Quick update. Still not sure how wife is going to react. She called me on the phone earlier. Among others things, we briefly touched on why I was there at her work. I told her straight up what I had done and what she could expect. I asked her if she was OK and she said no. (of course) But she also said we'd talk more about it after she got home. She didn't sound angry, just very quiet.

Hearing what she told me yesterday, which was, "I'm in love with him and I don't want to give him up." and pairing that with now she knows if she ever talks to him ever again in any way shape or form, she's not only destroying her career and losing her family, but she's destroying his career.

While she was reading SAA last night, the only passage she highlighted was one about flirting to know you can still make someone else attracted to you and not meaning for the flirting to lead to sex, but once it leads to sex, that pretty much ends the relationship. That was helpful to me to see what she thought was creating her situation.

So far, none of our plans for this week have changed. If she hasn't called off our dates by now, knowing what she knows, she's probably not all that upset with me for following through on my earlier promise to her about talking to her commander. (He's going to help me find work, by the way) I think she's just going to have to deal with the realization that her fantasy bubble is off limits now. Thank you all for your support.

March!!! I'm gonna miss seeing your rantings, errr, your posts for a whole week! Send me a postcard or something. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

HF-

Sorry you are having a down time--it seems to ebb and flow with me as well. It is so disappointing to realize that even a healed marriage will be forever changed. I am hurt beyond description, and I think there is just a handful of days since DDay that I haven't had a little cry.

I read on one thread that recovery was all about "becoming comfortable on the pee-stained couch." Sort-of an ugly metaphor, but it made me think. I finally decided that it's not entirely true, though. If you believe in true repentance, and in true atonement, then someone can be completely forgiven for adultery in the eyes of God.

Isa. 1: 18 says: "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."

So, if you are thinking of this like the "pee-stained couch"--it can be completed cleaned. Maybe even recovered with something pure and unstained in any way. The struggle that we deal with is that, no matter how beautiful the couch is, we will always know what happened to it. It is the memory that hurts.

But then I saw another comparison that I liked better--and I told MF about it before, so this is a little repetetive, but someone else compared recovery to a giant California Redwood that was hurt at one time. One limb is knarled, but the tree continued to grow and is stronger and more beautiful than before.

I like that image better than the pee-stained couch, anyway. Keep your chin up--one day at a a time. It must get better!

Drexxel-
That is awsome that you went to your W's commander! From other posts I have read, I am sure you will find her initially really pi**ed off, but once that clears it seems that true healing can begin. She needs to have some time removed from the OM before she can really focus on your M.

And I am thinking that, if you are available, you could lead a class of some sort for the "cavemen" husbands. I am thinking "Chivalry for Dummies" or something like that . . . . You could have several different segments, like thoughtful gestures, being courteous, and maybe throw in a cooking portion also (although it sounds like MF's hubby could test out of that one). What do you think???????

Anyhow, I hope everyone had a good evening! I'll check back tomorrow!

-C.

Hey everyone
Csj I only watched half of Big Love last night I was fuming b/c my H said he would close up while I checked on the kids and he came up 10 min later. When I asked him how come he wasnt right behind me he said he decided to check his email and I said well why didnt you say that when you were right behind me on the way upstairs? Blah blah you knowthe routine. I dont trust him..never going to trust him...that hurts him.

You know upuntil this weekend I have felt very very sorry for myself and last night I thought....what if we didnt make it? I would be ok. I wouldnt want it. I love him. I would hate to be a single mom. The kids would be devastated but the earth would still revolve around the sun. I would still wake up in the morning. Funny it took 5 months for me to even begin to think like this.

Anyway now I am just disgusted with him and what he did. He asked me just the other day if I had hate in my heart and I said no not at all just dissapointed that we were not who we thought we were and that I would never be able to see us like that again. I could never have my innocence back and I resented that but no hate.

Today I may answer that question differently! Hopefully this phase wont last long but I do what everyone else does I guess back and forth all the time.

Gotta run to DDx2 school for parent night sooooo cute! Cant wait. Thank God for those wonderful kids.

Drex
I am so glad to hear that you exposed. It will be such a good thing. It certainly sounds like you are on your way to recovery!

Hope everyone is doing well will check in in the am
HF

HF- you know, the realization that I could make it without my H was ultimately freeing for me, and maybe you will find that for yourself as well. That little discovery actually came well before DDay, and I remember it well. I was folding laundry and just fuming that I was basically functioning as a single mom, my H was gone again, as usual, and I started asking myself "what has he done for me lately???" The only thing I could come up with was that he mowed the lawn, and fed the animals. It occurred to me that, if we split up, the only thing I was lacking was someone to do those 2 things. And if I moved and had my own place, I would get a much smaller home in an HOA or something where I didn't have to feed horses or mow a lawn. In other words, I realized I didn't really need him.

So when DDay came along months later, I was of course totally devastated. But there was that underlying knowledge that, no matter what happened, I would be okay without him. I could make it on my own if I had to. And that still gives me some courage, which helps with the hurt somehow.

So instead of being angry that the world doesn't revolve around him, let that empower you. You can handle this curve ball that life has thrown at you, no matter what!

Hope your night tonight goes a bit better,
-C.

Good morning,

Hoping For…..First of all....I hope all is well in your neck of the woods...I hear you guys have a lot of flooding in your area. It's raining "cats and dogs" here. Darn, I've got so much stuff to do outside.

Second, I'd like to hit your husband over the head with a frying pan - he's got the same thoughts as my husband. I told my husband about what he said and my husband commented that he was right - you should stop talking about the past. He thinks the same way. I asked him - "do all spouses who cheat have the same attitude - that we are just supposed to forget instantly"? It's not only your husband - I think they are all alike.

It's also very hard to think of your marriage as it was before. My D-Day is going to be a year next month and I still think - if this only didn't happen. It put such a dent in our marriage, just because my husband wanted to experience being with another woman before he got older. The women he was with before we got married didn't count.

It's funny that you ladies mentioned living alone. My husband said that if we ever split up I would need a man/husband. I told him no way...."I do everything right now by myself, I cook, clean, do yard work, handiwork around the house, I can get a job (2 if needed). What do I need a guy for....sex? Yes, I may need a guy for sex....but when that's over I can send the guy on his way. I don't need a NEW guy to tell me what to do and possibly go thru this again. I've survived before after divorcing....I can provide for my children and me....I don't need another man."

Lots of women think they can't survive without their husbands...being single...yes it's hard, but it can be done. Yes, it's much easier to stay in a marriage, but in certain instances its worse for the woman and also the children - it does more harm than good.

Hoping For....don't get me wrong I'm not telling you to leave or divorce your husband....but women can survive without a man - even if they don't work.

The subject of husband going out.....years ago my husband used to do the same thing. He would go out with someone and I would ask him when he was coming home. He would say I don't know or he would say around let's say 11:00. Well 11:00 would roll around - my husband was no where to be found. At the time, we didn't have cell phones and I had no way of contacting him.

You think he would call and say he was going to be late - of course not. He deliberately wouldn't call because then I would tell him to come home. So......I didn't know if he was just drinking with his friends or he was lying in a ditch dead. We had so many fights about this.....he finally stopped doing this. Now, he does call me and say he's going to be late. Although last year when he told me he was going to be late, that he was working, was a lie anyway - but at least I knew he wasn't dead.

Drexxell....I just want you to know that I went into my husband's office and I personally confronted the OW. At first she said she loved my husband - it was over, she didn’t want to hurt me – it just happened, blah, blah, blah - then she started getting nasty. She said she had her eye on him from the first day, she said to let him go – he didn’t love me, blah, blah. So my blood began to boil. I told her, "you ugly, wrinkly, big nosed, bit--, if I ever catch you catch you with my husband and it's other than business - I'm going to kick your skinny flat wrinkly a--. She better not ever, even call our house. I put the fear of God in her. I’m small, but I’m spunky.

She told my husband the next day that I was crazy and she would have never thought of going starting the A, if she knew that. I know you’re not supposed to do this – but I always feel this was the best thing I did – she knew how I felt about her. She was trying her best to be nice to him and get back into his life. The more my husband distanced himself from her – the madder she got. She did stay away from him - but she pressed harassment charges against him anyway to get even.

I wish I could have done the same thing and went and divulged his affair in the company – but for reasons I couldn’t. I commend you for doing that.

Talk to you later.....

Hi everyone
Thanks for all your kind thoughts. I was so angry last nignt. DD woke me up to tuck her back into bed at 3:30 AM I was so mad I couldnt get back to sleep. I literally wantd to punch him in the stomach. Really. Now normally my reaction in the middle of the night if I coulnd sleep it would have been crying but now I am p-off.

Csj
I have in the past during his guilty phase and especailly after 9-11 thought if he died in a plane while traveling could I do this? Yes. Was he always there for me? No. Where there times when I thought what the heck do I need him for I am doing everything anyway? Oh Ya!

But I never thought I seriously could lose his love for me. After I found out I realized how close I was to him giving up on us because of the fear and guilt that he had. I think those feelings made me so scared and nervous.

Now I am so disgusted by how weak he is. Last night he promised to keep trying to be there for me but he said he gets exhausted too. Well what does he think I am? Happy? I am far far from happy. relaxed? No way. I am so happy he is cured but come on shouldnt he be there for me being that he did this to us?

I think the times when I need him the most are when he bags out on me. That really makes me question who he really is. Is he just a fair weather friend? Am i expecting too much? He is so good to me in so many ways but if I bring him down forget it...hes done talking. I really dont think thats fair.

I understand he wants to move on I would too if I were him. Why not? Why focus so much energy on something we cant change. We are wasting time and energy on this when we have both decided to stay together.

I dont know but I do feel better after ranting and raving all this. Thanks!

F&L
Thanks for your post on the other thread I am going to print those out for him to read again at a later date!

And yes it is MISERABLE here. It has been dreary and raining pretty much steadily for a week. We are safe and the roads are fine here but in Northern MA everything is cancelled. Here we have had no baseball which means lots and lots of makeup games shoved into the next few weekends! Hope you are all well.
HF

Good morning All,

Drexxel, Hope your night went well with your W...Now it is up to her to get out of the fog...You did the right thing by exposing to her commander. One day she will thank you for it. Maybe not today, but one day...

CSJ, Hopingfor, and F&L, I agree with all of you on being able to make it on my own. All four of us have had to be the single mom while being married. I would say to my H last year, I feel like I don't have a husband...Of course, he would get mad at me for saying this, but it was true. So what do I need him for? I do it all by myself anyway...Like F&L says, maybe for sex...but not necessarily <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> . I know that I could make it on my own and would probably be better off... But like HF says, I don't want to. I also had no idea how close it was that I lost his love due to OW. I will never know the full story of the A...if he really did love her...He will never admit it if he did.. I also feel like my M is tainted. I know alot of WS say "I love you but I'm not in love with you"...this is how I feel...I feel like, when do I get to feel in love with someone again?? He had that feeling during his A...maybe it wasn't love, it was lust and infatuation, but he put alot of effort into it, and gave her alot of attention. None of this is he giving me now, and that is what hurts.

I would expect that if I was the FWS, that I would be trying to make it up to my H by being more loving and attentive, instead of withdrawing from me. I am the one that hugs him first, kisses him goodnight.. He is not fulfilling any of my ENs while I try to fulfill his ENs.

Sad & Confused, maybe you can help me out here with this reaction as you are the FWS...Is it guilt? that he feels unworthy? I don't know...

HF, You and I have posted for awhile so you know that my H was not there when I needed him on many occasions...During this pregnancy, he went to maybe 3 prenatal appts. I had to practically drag him to the ultrasound appt when we were to find out if it was a boy or girl...And this from a man who was so excited to have another baby...I guess he thought I was so strong that I didn't need him...

Bottom line is that of course we all CAN make it on our own. We are choosing to give our Ms a second chance (or more) in the hopes that our Ms will recover and can become better than they were after the A. We have hope...But depending on where you are in the recovery process, we do have to go through stages. HF, you are going through the ANGER stage now. It is not fun, it is not pretty, but you will get through it. And you are justified in your anger, you have a right to it...Your H doesn't want to see your anger--he is afraid of it. When you were sitting around crying and feeling sorry for yourself, it made him feel guilty so he wanted you to move on. Now that he sees you are angry, he is scared that you want to move on...and away from him. He knows that you can make it on your own and that terrifies him, that he will lose you and his family after all....

Gotta get to work , will check back later.

Morning everyone!

I heard about the rain back east just this morning--oi vei! That sound like it's really miserable for all of you in that neck of the woods. We had quite a bit in April, but nothing like that. We are dealing instead with record highs--it has been almost 90 for several days running.

HF-I saw another thread in the GQ forum that was kind-of a response to KiwiJ's "not in a million years" (did you read that one? it freaked me out that after 3 years, she broke NC and was almost wisked away in an affair all over again . . . isn't there ever an end to these nightmares?). Anyway, there was a break in NC after 8 years (not on purpose) and this guy was explaining how he and his FWW came through everything just fine--they are stronger than ever, etc. But they had a terrible time in the beginning and a rough recovery. It made me feel a little more optimistic to see that there are big bumps along the way, but that a marriage really can be healed. Maybe that would give you a little lift to read that post, too. I hope so anyway.

I've got my trip with H coming up, so I am keeping my fingers crossed that it will be a shot in the arm for us. We leave first thing tomorrow morning and will spend the first night in Durango, CO. We go from there to Santa Fe, NM for a few days, and then on to Los Cruces, NM, where my H's brother and his wife live. I hope it will be good for us to have some time, just the two of us. But I will miss my girls like crazy! They are staying with H's dad and step-mom though, so they will be in good hands and have lots of fun, I'm sure.

F&L, I think you're right, that many of the WH are just programmed the same way. They just want us to move on and forget it! I think part of it is the guilt that comes from being a WS in general, but then part of it is a "guy" thing. They can't deal with emotions like women do. (I realize this is a generalization and not true in every case--please take no offense Drexxel.) My H just panics if I cry. He stumbles around and stammers--finally has to just walk away. And he can't handle it at all if DD2 cries (she is VERY female that way--wears her heart on her sleeve and can be quite emotional). Whats the big deal? There is nothing wrong with being honest about the way that you feel.

Anyway, back to work. I'll check in later!

-C.

CSJ,

My H is a sucker for my daughter's tears...He tries not to be but he falls for it every time.

Wishing you the best for your trip....I hope you and your H have the time of your lives getting to know each other again...ENJOY!!!

MF-

My H is the same way! (Talk about two cavemen in the same cave . . .) And the danger in this is that he is inadvertantly training DD1 to be manipulative because she sees the reaction she gets out of crying. I keep telling him to just not react. Let her cry if she needs to, and let her learn to resolve her feelings on her own. That's how we all learn to be "big girls." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for the good wishes on the trip. Maybe this will prove to be the miricle cure for mixed-up marriages! Here's hoping!

-C.

Hey, Dr. Harley does recommend that couples go away for a couple weeks after the fog has lifted to reconnect...and to get a head start on that 15 hours of couple time a week...:)

Good afternoon,

Hoping For....I'm going to give you a bit of advice...you're husband is not going to change...he will not understand why you can't get over this. Yes, he realizes he hurt you - but he just wants to move on. I went thru the same thing - even now my husband agrees with your husband. They just can't understand why you feel like you do.

I re-read your post to your husband on the other thread - am I to understand that he was the OW's boss??? How similar we all are in our little group. He probably won't post again - he'll get hit by too many 2 x 4's, like my husband did.

I went thru this for months and months - I finally gave up - all I did was make myself physically sick. No matter how I tried to tell him how upset I was - he thought I should just forget about what happened. Every time I would cry, be upset - he would say, "I'm here - I didn't leave you, I love you - what else do you want". He even threatened to leave if I didn't stop bringing up his affair. My husband didn’t even think he did anything wrong because he thought he had a reason – he was confused, didn’t know what he was doing - a mid-life crisis.

I drove myself crazy and I had to go on medication - which I never thought I would have to do. But, I became so depressed at times, angry, I thought I was going around in circles - I felt all the burden of what he had done - he didn't care about how hurt I was. I thought he was insensitive - how could he? But, time heals wounds - and you certainly have a big wound - so, it will take a long time.

Like one of us said - you are at the anger stage. I was so angry at times - I felt like slapping the crap out of him. He did all this and he didn't give two hoots about it - it was over, finished, done, that's it. His favorite expression was that I was a Drama Queen, On the Soap Box - that's how he got his screen name.

You just have to give it more time - but don't wait for him to change - he may never. They don't like to think about what they did because it makes them realize what a stupid thing they did - nobody like to feel stupid - and to be constantly reminded of how stupid they were - not that you're reminding him, but the subject does. So, if he doesn't talk about it - it's gone, never happened - life goes on as usual. You also have to think – in his mind – it was a long time ago - over 4 yrs ago, not now. So he’s thinking it was so far in the past – that also makes a difference to him.

You’ve got to be stronger….don’t give up. You’ve only known for 5-6 months – I know that seems like a lifetime – but it’s not. I still get upset – but at least now I can talk about it without getting upset.

No, it's the clan of the cavemen....ALL the cavemen in one cave...they all must be from the same clan.

The crying doesn't work with my husband -he thinks it's stupid - a woman thing - doesn't understand why we cry all the time and complain - it worked with my dad though when I was little.

CSJ....have a good trip...don't do anything I wouldn't do!!!

Well, a quick check in before I'm off for the night. I'll have lots of news to catch up on when I get back!

HF-
I agree with F&L that a large chunk of what you're seeing is that the A is "old news" to your H. He left it behind him and wants so very much for you to as well. My H sees it quite the same, as his A was over by the time I found out about it, just like in your situation. (Although it hadn't been over for as long . . . .) They were happy as pigs in sh*t to have it over and not have been caught--I truly believe my H would have taken it to the grave if given the chance. This truly may be something that never changes with him.

But there are other things that can change--and maybe that will make the difference for you. All the "recovered" people I see posting say it takes 2 years to work through much of the emotional garbage, so just pace yourself. Try not to expect too much at once, and try to explain to your H that he can't expect too much right away either. He needs to let you work through your emotions, and he needs to work towards supporting your EN's in the meantime.

F&L-I will try very hard to not do anything you wouldn't do. Could you give me an idea exactly what that excludes . . . <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Have a good week!
-C.

Drexxel,

How did your talk go with your W? I'm on pins and needles here...

Well, yup, she was angry, but not terribly so, or at least not that she's really shown me. She didn't (later found out couldn't) talk to me for about an hour after she got home yesterday. Eventually, we talked some. I had promised her I would go on a run with her yesterday. She didn't want to go. I was like, "Look. I'm all decked out in my work out clothes, all psyched out for a run. I'm going to go run. You can come if you want to." She said, "Ok. ok. I'll be there in a minute." She made me run an extra lap. LOL

She hasn't turned down any of my affections, except she wouldn't give me a hug last night, but let me hug her this morning. I thought WW III was going to start about 2:30 this morning. My body pillow was falling off the bed and in my sleepy struggle with it, I flung it across the bed and hit wife with it. She was like, "WTF!" It's all ok now. We've got MC tonight and I've got IC tomorrow.

I sent her an e-mail this morning, and no sooner than I sent it, the school called and said DS6 had fallen off the monkey bars onto his face, but he was ok. I fired off another e-mail to wife repeating what the nurse had told me on the phone, then went to the school to get a look at DS6 for myself. While I was getting my shoes, wife sends back an e-mail saying call her if he's hurt or whatever.

So, I get to the school. DS6 is fine, complaining that the ice pack on his face is too cold. He's going to have some freckled bruising, but other than getting some dirt in his mouth, he's going to be ok. I sat down in the nurses office and put DS6 in my lap and said, "Mommy is worried about you. Would you like to talk to her?" Of course he does, so I call wife on the phone, fill her in, let them talk. At the end she tells me, "Thank you for calling me. I really appreciate that." Sooo, maybe things aren't too bad. Maybe they are. Hard to tell.

As far as me giving "caveman classes". It's like this. One can't learn a thing about chivalry when one is still fascinated by fire. Furthermore, I'm NOT the perfect husband by any means. I do appreciate you guys thinking that I'm such a good person and all. I share a certain amount of responsibility for my current situation too, you know. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Give your own caveman classes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Inteitionally have your hands full when you walk up to a door with your H. Just look at him and bat your eyes. He won't want to look like a jerk, so he'll open the door. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Do this enough, it becomes habit for him to open the door. You ladies can motivate your husbands to change their habits and behaviors, really you can, if you start being creative and simple. You get complex, you'll cornfuzz the dumb caveman. He won't understand the firepower of a rifle, but he'll know what a sharp stick is.

And just because he wants to sit around and sulk or whatever, doesn't mean you can't go have fun with the kids. Wife didn't want to have family game night on Monday. (That's something we just started doing) I told her, "The kids are really looking forward to playing games with us. Besides, they want a rematch for the butt whipping you handed them last week." She still didn't want to play until the kids started talking about what games they wanted to play, nagging mom about it, etc. She still didn't want to play, but was laughing and having a fun time almost right away. That's when we discovered that DS6 "knows the rules and is a big boy". What that translates into is, he's a shark at UNO. I told him, "Play a red one or play a 6." He looks at me and grins and says, "Or, daddy, I can play this." and plops down a Draw 4.

You gotta make it inviting and inticing. What father or mother, worth his/her own weight in salted oats, would sit and watch his kids having fun with mom and not want to get in on the action? This part is all about you having fun and being a better you, right? If WS decides to tag along, that's great! You just gotta do two things. Make yourself a more appealing option than leaving AND break the codependency that you have. Show yourself (and ultimately WS) that you can live without him/her and you don't need him/her to have a fun time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'll make an agreement with you all. You keep me in line and give me a womans point of view and I'll give you my point of view as a guy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Best wishes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey, Drex, you got a deal..:)

I agree with you wholeheartedly about enticing the other spouse to WANT to spend time with you and the kids. I have done a similar thing as you with the game night (good idea, by the way), only with the playground. My kids LOVE to go to the playground. A couple wks ago on a nice Friday night, we came home, asked H to go to playground with us. He didn't want to go. I told him that we were going, kids were looking forward to it, beautiful weather, etc. Couldn't get him to come along. So we went, were there for about half an hour...guess who shows up?? Yep, H...He says, I realized it wasn't any fun being at home alone....

And you are right on when you say change our behavior and he will change. I noticed that when I started telling him how much I appreciated certain things that he did (cooking a terrific meal, changing a diaper, etc) instead of Expecting him to do these things, he would do them willingly...I just have to do this more and more often.

Your W seems to be pretty receptive to spending time w/ you (the run, the game night), and to your affection most of the time. This is a good sign. She is not withdrawing into her cave (yes, caveWOMEN go into caves too LOL)...Plus you involved her in the little emergency for your son, and that was very good...She told you she appreciated your calling her.. That is a nice Love Bank Deposit for you...and she is meeting your EN for Admiration...

What you are doing is working...just keep it up.!

Hi everyone!
Hey Drex I am so happy for you sounds like things are going well for you!

Let me ask you other BS a question...did you go thru a disgusted phase? I think my angry phase is turning to disgust.

All thru this he has said to me "you are a better person" and I always thought oh that the guilt talking. Honestly now I am so disgusted with him I am starting to believe him. I know thats wrong I am not better than anyone but I would NEVER NEVER have done this. I couldnt have hurt him like this. I especially couldnt have lied to him all this time. I always thought so much more of us and him. I guess that was just my perception of us and him. Its so hard for meto accept I was wrong about that. Feels like my whole life is different now.

We are differnt people and that is so evident to me now. How can I forgive all these lies? All these years. At first I thought it was good he carried that guilt and it proved to me that he felt guilty. Now I think how the h$ll could he live that lie? Communicate with her thru email here and there? Wasnt I his best friend? How can you keep such a huge secret from your best friend? Didnt he feel tremendously guilty? Bleck. I am so disgusted.

I am sooooo not happy with this situation and how he has dealt with me lately. Im so angry and becoming so numb to him. Feels like I was so in love with him last week! I should go back and read last weeks posts maybe I can muster up a hello when he gets home haha!

Anyway thanks for letting me vent it all out! Ive been doing that a lot lately. Hope everyone else is a "happier place".
HF

MC completely sucked. wife dropped emotional bombs one after the other. Everything is all my fault, you see. I don't think I have anything left to give. I'm even out of tears. I have never heard such mean wicked things. She just started taking ADs tonight. Maybe it will help her, who knows. I'm not sure I want to do this anymore. I'm tired of the lies, the blame, the hurt. Tired of it being my fault. Tired of pouring my soul into her happiness just to have it spit on.

OM was the "only person she could talk to" and now I took that away from her. She "hates" me. Can't stand to look at me, etc etc etc. "I may have taken OM out of her life, but I didn't take him out of her heart." Yadda yadda blah blah. Then, everything she could remember that I ever did wrong, she's bringing it up. Last week she says she didn't have any unwrinkled blouses to wear to MC so this week I iron all but 2 of them and she still wears a flippin t-shirt. I'm losing love and losing it fast.

I really don't know if this is worth doing any more. I can't deal with this mean hateful wicked stuff. I am out of patience. I'm tired of not being allowed to feel or hurt or be angry because it'll make her mad. I'm just tired.

(((Drex)))

I wish I was in a better place to offer you encouragement but I am having these same thoughts.

Does your W have IC also?

It seems we are to give so much sometimes. I am tired too. I am so upset tonite and I can hear him snoring away peacefully on the couch.

You are a good man and I hope your W comes to her senses before it is too late.
Have a peaceful night. Tomorrow is a new day.
HF

I dunno if she does or not. She hardly talks with me since I "got her in trouble" and "tattled" to her commander. I know, it's only been 72 hours since NC and she's in withdrawal big time. I know she's in withdrawal because she was calling out OM name in her sleep last night. I thought I was going to vomit.

She lets me show her affection in private, but not in MC office. We were all snuggled up in bed last night, literally intertwined. It felt good for me to be that close to her, but I don't know what she was thinking, fantascizing, whatever. Then this morning it's back to not talking much, "I'm ready so I might as well leave early for work."

In MC last night she says, "It makes me so angry that NOW, after all this time, you do all this stuff to make me happy. Every time you do even the smallest thing that's nice, it makes me angry." I said, "Should I stop doing them because they make you angry?" She says, "I wouldn't advise it!" Somebody tell me what the heck that means...

Drex
That sounds like a girl thing to say. She certainly sounds angry with you and even though it makes her feel good for you to be nice YOU remind her of her anger.

She is a tough case for sure. One step forward two steps back. As long as NC is in place you are moving in the right direction. I can see why you are getting discouraged though. You have been strong a long time. I hope you have a better day today. Me too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
HF

I just e-mailed her this letter.

Maybe this will help some. I dunno.

Hi Drexxell and Hoping For,

Just want you guys to know that all the WS's shift the blame on us......I have come to realize that they all do this. I think it's because they realize how horrible it is what they did to us. It takes some of the guilt, shame away from them.

Also, they all think they were better able to communicate with the other person.....but did they take the time to communicate with you....NO. I'm sure if they sat down with us and said, "Look I really need to talk to you - I'm having problems - I have needs that I think you need to work on a little more- anything". When my husband did "his thing" - you don't know how many times I asked him to talk to me - what's wrong - why are you arguing with me - do you need to go to counseling - please talk to me". His answer was always nothing is wrong - I'm fine - I don't have any problems. But, yet he told me he had to talk to the OW - she was the only one that listened to him. THIS IS JUST AN EXCUSE TO JUSTIFY THE AFFAIR.

I don't care how busy you are with children, work - if your spouse told you there was something seriously wrong - you would try to correct it. All that baloney that you didn't understand, you weren't meeting their emotional needs, etc. - were they meeting yours - or were they driving you crazy - doing what they were doing?

Even when my husband and I went to MC - he tried to shift the blame on me - how he was confused, I didn't understand him, I WAS CONTROLLING - that's a joke, I treated him like a child - all this stuff. Luckily, the MC saw right thru this and said he was wrong - nothing justifies an affair.

The MC told my husband he had a lot of issues and he had to deal with them in the marriage - going outside of the marriage didn't help anything - it was running away from the problems. Our MC was very good - I knew in my heart that I had not mistreated my husband - I was always there for him - I didn't ignore him - worked my fingers to the bone for him - the MC made my husband realize this - I could never do this.

Sometimes, it takes someone completely unbiased to make someone comprehend that they have been thinking completely wrong for a long time.

When I told my husband to end the affair - he did - he told her the next day. But, he still insisted on working right next to her for the next 10 months. Even though he had the affair - he still wanted to call "all the shots". He was giving me all the ultimatums. You guys also have to realize that even though they did this - once it's over - they want to go back to normal, like nothing happened.

They will not understand why you are still upset. If the affair is finished - why harp on it? My husband still feels like this. We just had an argument 2 days ago about this. He said he was sick and tired of me complaining, nagging him about the past - do I want him to leave or what? I can't even mention anything that even relates to the affair or he gets pissed off.

Drex.....I think your wife gets angry when your nice to her because it makes her realize that your a good guy.....which then doesn't justify her affair - you're not supposed to be kind, sweet, romantic, understanding. If you are - then why would she have an affair? Your wife is still grieving from the affair - she wants to set the rules. She's telling you better be nice to her or she'll be angry - you don't wnt to see her angry. WS spouses always make threats. By threatening - they feel in control - but you know they're not. She's mixed up about her feelings. But, I told you before your wife has deep rooted problems - which need to be found out.

You iron shirts/blouses!!!! If a shirt gets wrinkled on the hanger - my husband throws it in top shelf in the closet! We have a hamper right in the closet - instead of throwing his stuff in there - he piles his stuff on the top shelf of the closet. I went and took everything down from there about 2 months ago and he had 3 prs. of shorts, a couple of tank tops and some swim trunks up there. Mind you, he does fold them - but they're dirty clothes!!! and we just started to have warm weather.

I started laying down the red cedar mulch in the flower beds and started on the 5 ton of stones - have to also be laid down in the landscaping areas. Pool is finally cleaned - it's 55 degrees. Will do some more tomorrow. Have to go see my dad today - Drex, if you don't know my dad has Advanced Parkinson's - I used to care for him - but it became too much - he's in a ursing home now - that's why I go see him all the time.

Hoping For.....like I told you before...your husband just wants to sweep this under the rug....it happened years ago...so he figures why do you keep bringing it up. He probably will not change his attitude. If it happened 5 yrs. ago - he probably forgot about the OW already - but the guilt made him confess. HE JUST WANTS TO FORGET.

I know how you feel....we all feel like that....we can't forget....it takes a long time. Yes, you have periods of being ok, then anger, disgust, depression - mood swings. I don't want to suggest this - but did you ever think of taking an anti-depression medication. I had to - it helped with all the mood swings and anxiety attacks. Many of them are not habit forming. I took then for about 4 months and now I stopped. I had to take them because I was always angry, upset, depressed many times for no reason. I am normally a happy-go-lucky person - it was not me - so I had to do something about it. I was turning into an ogre.

No matter how much you try to tell them how hurt,upset or angry you are - they will not understand. They could only understand if this happened to them.

Oprah is having a discussion today on infidelity - married people cheating on spouses with best friends. Should be interesting - may give some insight to us. Channel 7 at 4:00 pm.

Drex
Well said. I hope it melts away the anger. I agree with F&L
Drex.....I think your wife gets angry when your nice to her because it makes her realize that your a good guy.....which then doesn't justify her affair - you're not supposed to be kind, sweet, romantic, understanding. If you are - then why would she have an affair? Your wife is still grieving from the affair - she wants to set the rules. She's telling you better be nice to her or she'll be angry - you don't wnt to see her angry. WS spouses always make threats. By threatening - they feel in control - but you know they're not. She's mixed up about her feelings. But, I told you before your wife has deep rooted problems - which need to be found out.

Sorry I dont understand the box thing but the above paragraph makes so much sense I wanted to highlight it. It is so true. I think the WS feels very much out of control and this is one way of proving to herself that she is worthy of your love. If she has you jumping thru hoops then she must be worth all the agravaation she caused.

My H and I are struggling with this too. I cant understand how he could have been so mean after the A was over and how now whenever I get angry about what has happened he turns angry himself I expect him to grovel for forgiveness I guess. Someday I hope it will click to me that it was never about me it was his insecurities not my inadaquacies. He feels very unworthy of my love and my anger scares him so much no matter how many times I tell him I need to blow off steam it doesnt help.

F&L
Wasnt Oprah good? It made so much sense to me. Anyway my general practicioner put me on wellbutrin but my MC offered me stronger drugs. I hate to take anything. Its not going to make me "happy" right? Just not soooo sad right? My H said to try them but I am not a big pill person just vitamins and I do take the wellbutrin everyday I dont know if it does anything I dont notice achange if I dont take it. I hate to even take advil. What did you take and what did it do?

Well gotta go speak with all in the am
HF

Hoping For,

We are all struggling with the same thing…...not only you.

Oprah's special had me glued to the tv. The guy that cheated on his wife with her friend could have been my husband - except his OW wasn't my friend. Everything he said, my husband said.

Oprah asked, "Didn't you think you would hurt your wife by doing this?" He said no, never thought about it. My husband said the same thing. How could they not? He told Oprah how he bought the OW into their home - while he was having the affair. My husband did the same thing - we had a Memorial Day picnic for the office people - he invited her, had already had a PA with her - I kissed her hello and goodbye -what a slap in the face – I’m sure even the people at the picnic knew he was having the affair – they all worked in a small dept.

The doctor on the show - I forget her name - asked, "Why do you want to hurt someone like this - you must have had something happen in your past to do something like this - you must be very angry at someone?" At first he said, “I love my mom and dad.” The doctor asked again, “What makes you so angry?” Then how he replied bought tears to my eyes.

He said, "I hated the way my dad controlled my mom, the way he talked to her, he didn’t listen to her “– he had tears in his eyes. This could have been my husband talking. His dad did the same thing to his mom. The doctor said many men hate the way their fathers treat their moms, but when they grow up - they have so much anger - they do the same thing. It is all so true. My husband always told me he never wanted to be like his dad - yet, he is so much like him.

The doctor said the things children see in their families growing up gets deep rooted in their minds – molding them into their adult years. If they see abuse, no matter how they try not to do the same thing – they still do. So true!!!!!

The guy said he wanted to be in control of his life – no one telling him what to do, no responsibility, felt like he was in a box in the marriage, the OW built up his ego. Everything he said - it was like a replay of our situation. The doctor told him he was in a fantasy when he was in the affair - just like we always say. If the affair was put into real life situations - it would never last.

His wife just sat there - I could see the hurt on her face - she was trying to be calm and not cry - but I could see the hurt. It was as if she couldn't say anything. It was almost as if it was me. She said she loved her husband, after all this.

Then they had the OW's version - also like mine - this OW worked with the other married man. How it started - same thing, as our situation. I hate to say it - I didn't really feel sorry for her. I saw her crying - but it just bought back bitter, hurtful memories. The guy was married - why do this? All the same stuff, sneaking around, etc.

Yes, it was a very good show, but it hit me hard! Too many similarities. I know MamaFish was traveling yesterday….too bad she couldn’t watch it.

Hoping For.....I used to take Zoloft....it takes about 2-3 weeks to start to kick in. You may not even realize it's working.....but it is. You need to take it for several months....all you will notice is that you're not so on edge. It doesn't make you woozy or anything. Once you take it regularly, if you miss a pill, nothing will happen, because it's already in your system. It's not like one of those pills that you take just when you are upset - you have to take these every day – don’t stop taking them if you feel better.

You will still get upset; it doesn't stop you from doing that. It just makes you a bit calmer and not getting those ups and downs so often. I didn't take Wellbutrin, but I think it's the same. You have to watch though; some of these AD's make you gain weight. The Zoloft was good for me. You should take these for at least 6 months.

They are not habit forming. I stopped taking the Zoloft with no problem. I just forgot to take it one day and then I said to myself, let me see if anything happens and nothing did. I don't like to take any medication either. I have Osteoarthritis and all I take is Advil for it. I was in 2 big accidents and screwed up my neck and back - when you get older you develop scar tissue. The doctor gave me Cellebrex for it - it doesn't even do anything, so I don't take it. The best thing for this is exercise.

Talk to you later.

Hi Everyone,

Back in the office today. I wish I watched Oprah. Actually, I wish my H watched it. From what you have said of the show, it sounds just like my H also. He didn't think of me at all, figured what I didn't know wouldn't hurt me, tried to solve our problems by running to someone else instead of talking to me, and the big thing too, is doing what his father did to his mother...He realizes this part--says he never wanted to be like his dad and here he is, doing the same thing.

F& L is right about it all. The WS has to justify the A by portraying the BS as so terrible that they had no choice but to do what they did. This is the fog talking. They all say the same things, like a script they follow...If my H had only said to me, look we aren't having sex as much as I want/ need, and by the way, there's this young woman coming on to me all the time at work...well, of course, I would have changed my behavior right away. The WS doesn't give the BS the OPPORTUNITY to change behavior--they make the decision on their own to have an A... And then they change their values/beliefs to justify it all, even rewriting the history of the M if it makes them feel better. And I also asked my H many many times what was wrong...they do not want to admit the A, because then they have to see your pain. It's there, it's not something they can escape from anymore...

Drexxel,
I am sorry for all that you are going through, but it comes with recovery. Your W is still in withdrawal/fog/whatever you want to call it...You have to be patient and try to keep doing the nice things, even if they make her angry. She is angry because she doesn't feel like she deserves to be treated so well by you. This is the same w/ my H. He finds it hard to accept my love because he doesn't feel worthy of it.

The letter you wrote was beautiful and I'm sure it will touch your W...but she still may feel "smothered" because she doesn't feel like she deserves you...You are the better person here too.

I can't add much to what HF and F&L said to you...Just that, if you know that you did everything you could do to rebuild your M, you will have a clear conscience. By being the nice guy that you are, you are doing what you can do. You just need to be patient while your W gets out of withdrawal, I think they say it takes about 6 wks. Just take it one day at a time and use this time to focus on you and what you can do to be a better person.

Hopinfor,
My H said the same thing to be about me being a better person than he is...He said he would never doubt my love for him again after all this. The guilt that he was carrying around for so long burdened him, now he feels free of it...but like I said before, he just wants to forget. Maybe he even thinks it was better when you didn't know about it...But of course, it is better that you know, so that you can deal with the problems, and move forward.

I have not been put on ADs, but sometimes I think I should have looked into this. F&L is right--you have to take them every day even if you don't see a difference. My H is on Welbutrin and it takes a few weeks to really see a big difference. It builds up in your system, so you have to take it consistently...I don't know if you smoke, but my H does, and one benefit of this is that he doesn't smoke as much. (they also use welbutrin as a stop smoking aid)...He would like to quit but is going through so much now, that that won't be happening soon.

Have a good weekend All...Hang in there...

<grinz> Can I brag about my weekend? Friday night, dance lessons, followed by about 4 hours of dancing. Saturday night, dinner at Olive Garden with the Kiddos, <clears throat> feeding one another desert. She actually compared it to our wedding day! Sunday, a few hours of intense conversation, a few tears, a couple of new (good) discoveries. Last night, I won't share. That's just for me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank you all for being so supportive. We still have a lot of work, but this last weekend was just fantastic and I can hardly contain myself. The last three days with my wife were a nice step in the right direction. It's going to be a good week. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Best wishes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ummm, about this...


I had smoked for 13 years. Discovery was 3-29-06. I quit smoking 3-31-06. Just put it down, cold turkey. I think clearer, smell better and my wife isn't on me about it. Tell your H if it's a LB for you, he better put it down. It was a LB for my wife and I knew it and I was selfish anyway. Not a good thing. (In my own defense, it wasn't a LB when we were dating and got married, etc. Only a couple years later did that start.)

I'll guarantee you that if your Hs marriage depended on him quitting smoking, he'd do it. He has the benefit of Welbutrin. Tell him you want to be his vice. You smell better, you're non cancer forming, he doesn't have to pay tax for you, he can take you into restaurants and public buildings AND when you're smokin, baby, he's gonna need all the air he can get. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hi Drexxel,

Well, I am so happy to hear about your terrific weekend...that is great news!! I think you are wll on your way now...

Thanks for the laughs too, your comments about my H giving up smoking. I will bring this up to him tonight, just how you said it instead of nagging him about it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />...Yes, it is an LB for me...It was when we were dating too, but I didn't actively try to get him to quit until we had our first child. He has tried to quit a few times, but during stressful times, like now, he does it more...

Our weekend was busy--soccer and tball on Sat. My H had a bad toothache over the weekend so was kind of grumpy until yesterday. The weather here is getting nice, so we were outside alot yesterday too.

My H had a "revelation" on Sat night. I have talked on here before about how he criticised me a lot during his A. Nothing was ever good enough, or done right...Well on Sat night he said he realized that he has said a lot of hurtful things to me without realizing how much they hurt me. He said his mother was always like that, and he is going to try to be more aware and bite his tongue and think before he says things to me...So far, so good...He is always on my case about me being on time for things (I tend to be late or ontime for work, etc while he is early)...So we'll see if this is a permanent change, or will just last a day or so.

Hope everyone else is doing okay. It's a good sign that none of us were on here over the weekend...

Will check back later,
C

Good morning everyone,

My e-mail is down - I haven't been able to use it this morning - haven't seen my e-mails since Friday - don't use the computer much on the weekend.

Hey Drexxell, I didn't see what kind of dancing you do - is it Country Western - since you're down south - that's great. Good to hear things are going a bit better for you.

MF, a little history about how I came here....
In 1956 the Hungarian people revolted against the Russian communist rule. It was a revolution - many thousands of people got killed. Russian tanks roamed thru the Hungarian streets, killing people on the spot. The Hungarian people appealed to the US to help them – the only thing President Eisenhower did was to let x-amount of people come into the US for the next several years without any question, under the political asylum laws at the time.

There was only one hitch - you had to escape across the Hungarian border into Austria - you couldn't just leave the country. If you got caught - you go shot! My parents and I (I have no siblings) were included in those people that escaped in the late 1950's – early 1960’s - I was just a tiny kid. My family managed to escape - me crying all the way, because I was tired and hungry -we escaped with only the clothes on our back. I remember it was so cold my eyelashes froze, because I was crying. I remember my mom telling me that I had to be quiet, couldn’t make any noise – but I was so cold and tired – all I did was cry. We lost my dad in the escape. We turned around and he was gone – we didn’t know where he went. We kept on going though – no time to stop. We got to Austria – were put on a plane, headed for the US.

We came to the US in a large group and we were sent to various parts of the US – us to NJ. We were sent to a Catholic Church, but they had room for us for only one day. So we were sent out into the street, in the middle of the night. Luckily, a police officer, who happened to have a Hungarian grandmother, ran into us. He put us up into a flea-bag motel for the night. I remember sitting on the bed and a puff of dust came off the bed. He came back the next day and brought my mother and I home to his wife – they were a young couple who couldn’t have children – so the wife loved me.

We lived with them for a year - this police officer helped locate my dad - he came a year later to be with us. You know I've always been a daddy's girl. I cried for my dad every day - not thinking how my mom felt. I was just a kid. I remember vividly, when I first saw my dad after a year – I saw him immediately out of a crowd of people and I ran to him – kissed him a million times.

Then we moved out on our own - none of us speaking English. My dad and mom went to work and I stayed home - till I was old enough to go to school. We had no money, that’s why I had the funny looking shoes and clothes that the kids made fun of - plus, I didn’t speak English. I entered school at 6 and that's where I learned to speak English. So, you see I only have a 1st grade level of Hungarian education, but I can read and write also.

My mom promised me that the first Christmas she would buy me a beautiful dress and shoes. She kept her promise – the first Christmas that we were all together – I got the red velvet dress with blue patent leather shoes. I thought I was a princess. Can you imagine a kid getting just a dress and shoes for Christmas thinking it’s the greatest gift in the world?

All my education was received in the US - I don't have an accent at all. In fact, people think I'm from NY - that's my accent.

So, I've given you and the others a bit of history. I told you I could write a book. Everyone, hold dearly what you have. Even if you only have a little - if you have your family and their love - you have a lot.

I won't be home this afternoon - I have to go to social security for my dad. They're a pain in the butt - everyone else accepts a letter for my power of attorney for him - but with them I have to go in person. You know how long that will take.

One more thing…thought you would like this. I bought a tank top from Penney’s – original price $59.99 (why anyone would pay that is beyond me) reduced to $2.77, yup, and I got an additional 10% off that – I bought it – figured it would fit one of my daughters. How’s that for shopping?

Got to go visit my dad before I go to social security.

Hi F&L,

Thank you for the history lesson and lesson of your childhood. What a miracle that you and your mother managed to escape, and then find your dad after all of that...what an experience to live through. No wonder you are so strong!

I did see the movie about the Hungarian revolution years ago (The Unbearable Lightness of Being, I think that's the title). I will have to rent it to watch again, now that I have a more personal view of it.

Good job on the tank top for sale...that's less than a gallon of gas around these parts...We are up to $3.06, and that is cheaper than it was last week. It goes up up up and then comes down.

Good luck at Soc Sec...hope you don't wait in line too long!

F&L,

Yes, lots of two stepping, waltzing, that kind of thing. Sometimes line dancing. We do it for multiple reasons. Lots of exercise. Good reason for physical contact. Happens to be a need of mine, just being touched, so it works out well. And we just have fun. When we dance, all serious discussion is strictly off limits. We have another rule. The bedroom isn't off limits for serious discussion, but the bed is. It's like being on "Base". (think back to playing tag in school)

MF,

The weekend was just fabulous. Wife is suffering from depression still, though. She took about 30 minutes of her lunch to call me this afternoon to let me know she's having a down day and just feeling bad in general. Second guessing last nights events a little. Nothing a little reassurance won't lift back up.

It's difficult when your emotional roller coaster isn't on the same track as your spouses. It has it's advantages and it's disadvantages, certainly. Today, she's down for whatever reason. I'm trying to learn that just because she's down, that doesn't mean it has a single thing to do with me. She's fighting with her own issues and I have to learn that I can't "fix" everything. Just be supportive, you know.

So, we're going to do a simple dinner tonight. I already made the chicken salad. I'm going to cut up veggies later. Bell peppers of various colors, cucumbers, carrots, celery and ranch dip. Kids love it, it's fairly easy, easy to clean up. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Tomorrow night, though, it's breakfast for dinner night. Pancakes, bacon and eggs. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> THEN my beautiful wife and I go out for some us time. A little dancing, a little singing.

Anywho, gotta get going here in a minute. She'll be home soon and I gotta be ready to run (literally). I think she's going to try to get me to do an extra lap today. I think it's awesome that she decided she'd rather do her personal PT at home with me than at the gym on base. That's part of the 15 hours, folks. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Then, we've got family game night tonight. Last monday, DS6 sharked us an Uno. It was hilarious. My wife said she didn't feel like playing games today. She said the same thing last week too and ended up laughing at the kids dropping DRAW 4s on each other. She'll play. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Everyone have a good night and I'll check in on you goofy goobers tomorrow!

Best wishes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

MF,

Just got back from Soc. Sec. - I had an appointment and I still had to wait an hour. Luckily, the man who took my information for my dad was very nice - the woman next to his cubicle was nasty - you should have heard her talking to people on the phone. Good thing I didn't have her. They only had enough parking spaces for 5 cars in front of the building - can you believe that - the rest was off street parking - none of course. I had to go a block down the street in a super market parking lot and walk. You'd think they would have more parking spots. They had every nationality in the building. This woman and I were probably the only Americans. The woman next to me didn't have an appointment - came in at 9:30 - she was still waiting at 1:30 to go in. Totally ridiculous.

It would be nice if you could find out the name of that movie about the Hungarian Revolution. Maybe I can find it in Blockbuster. I saw one movie a long time ago and it was so cool watching scenes from Hungary. I don't remember too much - only my house - I can still picture it in my mind. I remember I used to go to the next door neighbor and the man used to give me snacks to eat - the poor man got shot, just before we left.

You forget a lot of things - but tanks, guns, people getting shot at - you don't forget. What I remember the most is my eyelashes getting frozen - I kept crying cause I couldn't open my eyes and I couldn't see. I must have been a real pain in the butt, crying all the time. My mom promised me if I kept quiet and I was a good little girl she would give me Hungarian money when we got to a safe place - and she did - couldn't really use it in the US - I still have it!

I did go thru a lot of crap during my life - that's why I love and appreciate everything I have - will not give in and let someone take what is mine.

Our gas is about the same - I go to Getty - it's a little cheaper than Exxon & Shell. I have SUV and last week it took $50 - can't say put in $10 anymore - doesn't even move the needle.

Well, I'll talk to you tomorrow.....

Drex,

You and I were posting at the same time. It's nice that you go dancing with your wife. I enjoy dancing so much, so my husband takes me out to a club every once in a while. It also shows him that I still attract other guys - keeps him in "check". When other guys come up to me and I turn them down - it kind of turns him on - makes him know I'm his - let the other guys eat their hearts out. I used to be really into dancing in the 80's. My partner (old boyfriend) and I won a couple of "hustle" dance competitions. I was really into the disco music - still am. Quickest way to lose 5 lbs. in a night.

My mom taught me to do ballroom dancing when I was very young and I guess I got the rhythm from her. My mom was an excellent dancer and she had a beautiful voice too. I can't sing to save my life. My dad met my mom when he was in the Hungarian army - she worked in something comparable to the USO in the US. My dad met her when she was "jitter bugging" to the big band sounds. He took one look at her and that was it - he fell in love with her - mmmmmm, maybe it was her legs!!!!

I loved what you said about your wife "my BEAUTIFUL wife" - what a nice thing to say.

Goofy Goobers, Hey!!!!"We're not the ones from the south!!! Keep being good/sweet to your wife - let her know you are better than anyone else - that she will want no one else. Keep cooking these meals - I love guys that can cook and you sing too - wow!!!

Take care,

Hi F&L,

I was right about the movie title...

The Unbearable Lightness of Being (1988)

Plot Outline: In 1968, a Czech doctor with an active sex life meets a woman who wants monogamy, and then the Soviet invasion further disrupts their lives.

Daniel Day-Lewis, Juliette Binoche, Lena Olin star in this. You should be able to find it on Blockbuster.

I don't remember much about it..I like Daniel Day Lewis though--one of his first starring roles.

It's good that you had an appointment or you would have been there all day, like the other lady. Glad that you got things taken care of.

Drexxel,

Dinner and game night sound good to me. We have my son's tball game tonight. My H just came by to go get the girls at daycare, then it's on to the field. He didn't go to the game on Sat because of his toothache...

I like the idea of the bed being off limits for serious conversations...

I know exactly what you are saying about your W's depression and fighting her own demons. I'm in the same place. I try not to let his moods affect me and the kids, and just go on with or without him.

Well, no time now...gotta go...have a great night!

Just bumping this up for everyone.

Drexxel, Hope you had a great Game night and your wife joined in the fun...We went to Tball. My H says that he has to work with DS more on his hitting. He hits the Tee when he bats. H hasn't worked on this w/ him all season. We have breakfast for dinner sometimes too--kids love it and it's easy. Plus, you have leftovers for breakfast the next day!

Hi everyone
Only have a few minutes but wanted to check in. Everything has been going well for us here the past few days. I am still melting down here and there but H is handling me much better. We are soooooo busy this time of year with baseball its crazy! I hate it! We are definatly not geting our 15 hrs a week togethter and that stinks.

F&L
You truly have an incredible story. Its inspirational and does make me appreciate the "cushy" life I have. Thanks for your thoughts on the lie detector....boy I would LOVE to do that but I think just asking him and seeing his reaction would be telling!

Hey when does CSJ get back? I cant wait to hear how her vacation went!

Hope everyone is doing well. Going to MC today. Will keep you all updated!
HF

Hi everyone, it's me S&C....

I haven't written in a very long time. I really did want to help everyone as much as I could but I am at a point where I feel like I need to fix myself before trying to help others. I am a mess.

I just made an appointment for a pshycologist (sp?) for next Wednesday. We have a pretty detail discussion about what's been going on in my life. I told her I've been doing lots of research and I strongly feel that I am bi-polar. She asked me some questions and said that we'll get more into that possibility when I see her next week.

I am a mess, I can't cope at work, at home. Not sure if it's the guilt of what I have done or the fact that I just don't like myself anymore. I feel like sometimes all my thoughts run together in my mind and I have a very hard time making sense of it all.

The good news is my H has been so supportive of me....I wrote a note on his mirror last night, while he was working, that said..."I love you with every ounce of my being. love d xoxo" And this morning when I woke up he had written me a beautiful note "I love my beautiful wife more and more every day. love n xoxo".

What did I do to deserve him and such wonderful, beautiful daughters?

Sorry to vent! I don't think I'll be writing anytime soon, but I'll be back! I just need to work on myself now.

I hope that everyone is doing ok and know that you're all in my prayers.

Hi S&C,

Good for you, girl. I'm glad to hear that you are making yourself a priority. That is very important and very courageous of you to do. What you said about not liking yourself rings a bell for me. My H told me a few weeks ago that he hates everything about himself, that he looks in the mirror and has become everything he never wanted to be. It eats away at him. I am trying to be loving and supportive of him, as your H is of you. But he has withdrawn alot into his own shell and is fighting his demons on his own. He says, it's not about me, it's about him. So, I'm trying to work on myself too and not allow his moods to affect me and the kids. It's tough but I'm trying...Trying to show him that I love him and the kids love him no matter what. You are lucky to have your H supporting you right now. You made a mistake and you are taking steps to right the wrongs you have done...Check back in and let us know how you are doing--Good luck to you!

Hopingfor,

Glad to hear everything is going well and you are just busy...

CSJ is probably back from vacation today or tomorrow. She's probably busy so maybe she will check in w/ us later on.

Take care everyone,

Afternoon everyone!

I'm back from the sunny southwest! We had such a great time. So here is my trip report, in a nutshell:

We spent the first night in Durango, CO, which is kind-of a "wild west" town. We stayed in this lovely hotel that is on the National Register for Historic Places. It was built in 1887 and is furnished entirely in period furniture--making it one of the largest collections of antiques in the country! There was a lovely old saloon in the hotel, complete with lively western music and saloon girls. It made for lovely atmosphere, but seemed a little demeaning to the girls to be dressed like that, IMO.

The next two nights were in Santa Fe, NM, which is also lovely. There is lots of Indian culture mixed with Mexican also, so a lot of really great architecture, southwestern art, etc. We took in the atmosphere, bummed by the pool and relaxed, and ate really great food. And we even had a brush with fame! Willilam H. Macey stayed at our hotel (I am guessing his room was a bit fancier than ours) and he ate a salmon salad just a few feet away from us. He seemed very nice. Evidently he is doing a movie with John Travolta now (John was said to also be in the hotel, but I didn't catch a glimpse of him). Then we saw a limo pulling around front, so we were just pathetic enough to dash around to see who it was. Ray Liotta! I guess Ray is doing a different film (Cohen brothers producing/directing), but I'm not sure who else is in that one. There were other film folks there who are not big names--didn't recognize them. But they were carrying around scripts and talking about doing "night shoots" and stuff like that. One of them even struck up a conversation with us. He asked us about "Big Love" when he found out we were from Utah--made me laugh.

Then we drove on to Las Cruces to visit with H's brother and his family for a few days, and that was really nice. We got the grand tour of the border area down there (you could literally throw a rock into Mexico from there). It was sad at times, because as we were driving through El Paso you could see Juarez across the road, and it was just a hovel. It must be awful for those folks to see such an afluent American city within arms reach, but to be trapped in such poverty. But tragedy aside--I really enjoy the culture down there, and we had fun seeing the sights, and doing a little shopping.

Then we spent all day in the car driving back home. We left at 5 am and got back about 6:30 pm. Loooooooong day sitting in the car. But lots of pretty scenery.

I read F&L's post about her migration here from Hungary, and it was really interesting, because one of the books I read (sitting by the pool and sitting in the car) was about an Afghan refugee. It was called "The Kite Runner", if anyone is looking for a great book. Amazing, really. Fictional, but a lot of actual details about what has happened in that country through the Russian occupation, and then the Taliban rule. It deals with theme of redemption and forgiveness.

There was a quote towards the end that really hit me: "I wondered if that was how forgiveness budded, not with the fanfare of epiphany, but with pain gathering its things, packing up, and slipping away unannounced in the middle of the night." I've been thinking a lot lately about how you can tell, in cases like ours, when the WS is forgiven. Because it's not a case where you can "forgive and forget." I will always remember. And I feel now like the marriage I had is a very dear friend who had died, and I will mourn it's loss forever. But when I read that I though, "yes--that's what it will feel like to forgive H for this . . ."

And I had plenty of time to for memories and thoughts to run around in my head. Which is not always a good thing. It takes so little to send my emotional rollar coaster on another ride. Sometimes I feel like I can't breathe. And the smallest flippant comment from my H makes me furious. I thought several times to myself while we were traveling (sometimes my H gets a bit cranky with the details of vacations and gets a bit snippy) "I don't know if I want to be married to you anymore." He has no clue how close to the edge I teeter sometimes.

When does that end, F&L???? You're about a year out--have you stopped thinking to yourself that maybe you'll still bail out? And I loved your recap of the Oprah episode! I hadn't thought of the "anger" issue before. And I wonder if there is some anger from my H towards his mother. She is a great lady, and has been wonderful to me. But she has some serious control issues. (H calls her "bossy" and even went so far as to tell his new Step-Father "watch out--she's bossy" after they got married. He really should have kept his nose out of that one, IMO.) But I do think that's where his stubborn independance comes from--he's not about to let his wife (or anyone else) boss him around. And now I am thinking that this really played into his A also. It was just another way to prove that he could do what he wants.

And MF-it sound like you were on the road a bit, too. Anwhere fun--or just for work (or both)?

But I'm glad to hear that others have made some progress! HF--you guys are doing alright. It's normal to have some mood swings--be disgusted with him. That's perfectly okay. He deserves to have a little disgust come his way. That is a consequence. And that is, of course, the reason he kept the whole thing to himself for so long! He wanted to avoid facing those consequences. My H was the very same. He was so ticked that the rumors bubbled to the surface after the A was already over! Sometimes I wonder if he is "like the thief who isn't sorry he stole, but is very, very, sorry that he's going to jail." (One of my favorite lines from "Gone With the Wind.")

And Drex--you guys are doing so well! I am glad to hear it. And you are PROFOUND! I love your insight about not being able to grasp chivalry "if you are still facinated by fire." You need to go on the lecture circuit or something! Or maybe write a book . . . Anyway, we're lucky to have the male point of view here. Keep it coming!

Anyway--I've been working on this for a bit, so I'll post and see what I've missed!

Later,
-C.

Hi Ladies & Gent,

Hoping For - I know we all would like to know what's truth and what is said that the WS thinks we want to hear. But, like I told you - you'll drive yourself crazy wondering which, is which. Yes, I did have a rough life, but now after a lot of hard work - I too, have a comfortable life.

I put in a lot of effort, time, love, hard work into my marriage - this is why I didn't give up. I loved my husband then and now. Because he did a stupid thing - I can't just throw him out the door. I know it's so hard for you to forget what he did - it takes a long time. But, just think if he left - would that accomplish anything? I'm sure you will miss him so much.

Just remember you don't need him to pay the bills, be a handy man - what you need him for is his love and support. These guys are all the same - they just want it to be over and done with - they want you to forget it ever happened. I know it seems they are not giving you this - but in their own way - I think they are. They are geared differently than us. If you love your husband - don't give up. How many times have we all posted with our ups and downs - we are all the same.

Sad and Confused.....I told you once before...we all make mistakes - that's what makes us human. If you are truly sorry for what you did and realize what a mistake you made - your husband will realize this. You will go thru bouts of depression, hurt and guilt and your spouse will also go thru his ups and downs.

I've come to realize nothing comes easy - just when you think you're at a certain point - you come to another obstacle. Your husband sounds like a great guy - treat him accordingly. He is deeply hurt and needs his ego built up - make him know he is better than anyone else - and you will not have anyone else.

Everyone deserves to have a loving family - don't be so hard on yourself. No one is perfect. The only thing you can do is make this day and the next days to come the rest of your life - it's your choice.

Counseling is very good - it did wonders for my husband. If someone can change his way of thinking - anyone can change. He had many deep rooted ideas and the MC made him see how wrong they were. But just remember, no one can change completely - the spouse has to accept that. Everyone has character flaws, that can't be changed - no matter how hard they try.

I was out all day getting shrubs for the garden. Had to buy a part for the pool. Last softball game tonight. Going to try and fire up the gas grill. I'm going outside to do some more yardwork.

Good night all.

Welcome back CSJ,

Glad you had a great vacation...I would love to go out West one day...I did travel out of CT for one day...drove to Long Island==yee ha! Passed by the NY Skyline on my way--it was a beautiful day. Not too much traffic either...It was nice to get out of the office for the day.

I also teeter totter at the edge of not wanting to be married to my H anymore. It just reminds me of during the A when he would tell me 'you don't know how close to divorce we are...the only thing keeping us together is the kids". Of course I really didn't know at the time...Funny how now this statment rings true for me saying it to him.

Listen to F&L everyone...She is the furthest along into recovery of all of us. She knows what she is talking about. She has given me the hope and strength to carry on for one more day...

CSJ,

Glad to hear you're back......I was posting at the same time.

I’ve always had a rough time….right from when I was little…that’s what makes me a fighter……you can’t take what’s mine….. I hold precious every little thing that I have…for once I had nothing. If you have love…..you have everything – nothing else matters……

The only time I thought things were over between my husband and I was in the beginning. At that point I didn't know whether I was coming or going. Didn't know if he loved the OW, wanted to leave me, didn't know a thing. I was so hurt and confused I couldn't think straight.

As the time went by I was able to think more logically. I realized my husband just made a terrible mistake - which he couldn't take back. It is so hard to forgive someone for doing this to you - but I had to. This is my 2nd marriage - I didn't want this one to fail. I was so determined. I know many people would have bailed out of this marriage because I didn't get all the nice treatment that the BS usually gets. In the beginning I got all the blame, all the ultimatums, the verbal abuse, everything thrown at me but the kitchen sink.

When my husband I posted on this site - you don't know how many people told me to tell him to leave the house, let him go, but I didn't give up. Everyone bashed him for the way he talked about me. He couldn’t see what he was doing was wrong – he thought he had a right to do it as a man. It took him quite a while to realize it isn’t right. I love this macho man with all my heart. I always felt I would be worse off without him, not because I need him to pay the bills; I need him because I love him.

The biggest problem that we had was that he refused to stop working with the OW – he felt there was nothing wrong with doing this. He had/has a lot of deep rooted macho attitudes handed down from his dad - I can't change this. But, I feel no one is perfect. No one has the perfect marriage and if they think they do - they are mistaken.

As time passed, things got better - even though he was still working with the OW. I knew in my heart that he was only having business contact with her. Don't get me wrong we still have fights - it's not a bed of roses. But, we both have that hot blood running thru our veins. Even though I am Hungarian – note, I am not a Gypsy! Neither one of us likes to give in. We’ve always been like this – fight – make up.

On June 10 - it's going to be 1 yr. that I confronted him about the affair. This spring was tough - because that's when he was going full force doing "his thing" - while I was left alone to handle everything. Spring is going fast - now summer will be here. I have to look forward to the future - can't dwell on the past - I have to constantly remind myself of this.

I realized all along that my husband was/is the one for me - it just took my husband a bit longer to realize I'm the one for him. The other night he did tell me I was "hot" and any guy would love to have me - made me feel good. My husband just has a hard time expressing his feelings.

Adios Amigos......

Last night was a pretty good time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> We played Yahtzee. DD10 had the luck of the dice last night. DS14 can't grasp that it's not about the game we play, but the fact that we're spending time as a family unit that's important. Teenagers!!!

MF - How goes the no smoking thing with your hubby? I'm curious as to his response and how that whole exchange went. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

CSJ - Profound, eh? You better quit. My ego will swell and I won't get through to door. Then, you'll have to explain to my gorgeous wife why I can't take her dancing tonight. <grinz> Seriously, though, I just saw that as common sense. I don't get why more men don't understand that being more in touch with their feelings when they're with their woman almost always equates to "greater intimacy".

F&L - Awesome that your H tossed that compliment your way. If you make a big deal of it, he's likely to remember and do it again. Salt his oats. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

S&C - My wife is in a similar place to you emotionally. I think it's great that your husband is being so supportive. My only piece of advice to you at this time is to make sure you let him know how important it is to you that he's being so supportive. I want to share with you a quick story.

Yesterday, my adorable wife was having a down day. She called me at lunch and told me about it. I'm a fixer. Most men are. We get a problem, we fix it right. It was really hard for me yesterday to not try to take her problem and fix it.

Little did I know, something I did on the previous Friday would fix her problem. You see, she was driving home from work, listening to the radio. Tequila Makes Her Clothes Fall Off comes on. Before she knew it, she's tapping her foot, singing along, and thinking about when I took her out dancing the Friday before. All the sudden, she wasn't having a down day any more.

As long as you're spending your time together like you're supposed to, things are going to sneak up on you. Good memories are going to be like the little nano droids on Star Trek and go deep inside you and "fix" things one by one. If your husband is a "fixer", he's got to learn to not try to do that. Well, at least not in the immediate sense. He'll fix it and not know he's doing it. The really cool part is that you've got to let him know that he doesn't know he's fixing stuff. When my wife told me what had cured her down day, I was literally at a loss. Finally I said, "That's so cool!". It was a tremendous boost to my self esteem (which I needed) AND it was a way for her to verbalize that she knew something we had done together made her happy. When you're having a down day, try to verbalize what makes you happy... specifically, what you and your hubby do or did together that caused you to feel happy.

Ok, everyone. What did the right eye say to the left eye? Between you and me, something smells!. Ha! Now, everyone "nose" that smell is incredibly powerful as it relates to triggering emotions and memories. Do you want to have more 'up' days? Think back to your childhood, happy moments, gatherings, holidays, pies, parties. What smells were associated with those times? When I was in high school, I had a girlfriend. I would spend a good amount of time at her house doing homework or talking or whatever, but I remember that her mom's laundry always smelled SO good. The smell of that fabric softener brings endorphins into my system now. It doesn't make me want to be with my high school girl friend or anything like that, but there was a family and home setting there at her house that was comforting. It was safe. Now, I use that fabric softener.

Find your smell, ladies. What's your husbands smell? Cherry pie from the 4th of July celebration that was so special? Spend a few dollars to find the candle that matches it. Hot apple cider from that special Christmas? Put a couple drops of oil of cinnamon on your vaccum bag. You have more control over these things than you think. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Best wishes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Drex,

You're too funny! My husband loves Tequila - he's Spanish. That must be a southern song - I'm not familiar with them - catchy title. When my husband drinks Tequila it makes my clothes fall down also! Ha, Ha.

I used to be the same way when I was a kid and I would come home and smell what my dad was cooking - it smelled so good - especially if he was making strudel. If my mom was cooking that was another story - not a good cook.

My kids and my husband come in the door - they do the same thing - mmmmmm, smells good - is dinner ready? They could tell by the smell what's cooking. My kids are so picky - they know is I left something out of a recipe or cooked it different. I always value their opinion on new recipes.

I don't have to cook anyting special for my husband - he loves anything - that's the one thing I love about him. He always tells me, "I eat sh-- if you cook it and put it on a plate - if I'm hungry enough."

I love the way my husband smells just after his shower. Makes me want to cuddle next to him.

Got to go.....dinner is waiting....fried chicken tonight. It's very chilly here today - breezy. Will have to use the blanket tonight.

Morning everyone!

I have a meeting in a minute, so I thought I would quickly bump this up to get the morning started.

I've not heard the "Tequilla" song, Drex. Which surprises me because my H is a big country music fan so I heard LOTS of country music on our road trip. You realize now that we're all going to try and hear that song just so we can have a good laugh!

S&C--I don't know if you're checking in today or not, but we are thinking of you. Keep your spirits up, okay? It's a struggle every day, but we all know it's worth it.

Hope everyone is having a good day so far! I'll check back later.

-C.

Drexxel,
I have not yet had the "it's the Newports or me.." talk with my H...he's still down in the dumps so I will hold off on that for the moment.

How was your dancing/night out with your wife? I hope you had a good time...I'm sure that you did. I have also not heard of this Tequila song... don't listen to country music much...a typical New England Yankee, I guess...My H did something similar a few months ago. We had a huge fight as I was getting ready to leave for work. When I got to work, my voicemail light was flashing on my phone...It was from my H...He had put the phone up to the radio to a Billy Joel song, "Keeping the Faith"...Turned my whole day around. This is what he always tells me...keep the faith...

CSJ,
Watched Big Love last night...getting hooked on it now...

Have a great day everyone!

MF-

That show is sort-of addictive, isn't it? Every week (after Sopranos--one of H's fav's) we say "let's watch something else tonight" but then just sit there, glued. And it's really been interfering with my "Desparate Housewives" routine!

-C.

Hi C,

I don't watch DH, but I know you and F&L do...We watch Family Guy on Sundays...

But I found out Big Love is rerun on Tuesday at 11:00...didn't mean to stay up until midnight, but got caught up...and now Margene is pregnant OMG and last week, I thought maybe she'd be leaving...

Well, last night was kind of interesting. My beautiful wife and I own a property that we were having some issues with. We had a bet going and she lost the bet. So, she owed me a milkshake. That was the wager. LOL Anyways, I told her I would settle for an ice cream instead. We go to the Ben and Jerry's and they were CLOSED!!! OMG

So, we back track a little and go to the Marble Slab (Think Cold Stone for those of you who don't know what Marble Slab is) BUT, my charming wife has "forgotten" her dinero, sooo, I end up paying. She still owes me my milkshake. LOL

Eventually, we end up at this little bar where we had planned on going, but the DJ/Karaoke guy is running late. We decided if he wasn't there and set up by 10 that we would just go home. He gets there at like 9:45 and wasn't set up by 10, so we left. We had an absolutely fabulous conversation in the car about burning a CD that we could just play at home, scoot the furniture out of the way and utilize the wood floor that I put in. LOL

We talked about practice dancing in our socks so when we went real dancing with our boots on, our feet would be more sensitive to where we were stepping. We didn't actually dance last night, but what we accomplished with conversation was very important. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm not hearing anything else about smells!!! What are they? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Best wishes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

MF-

I missed last week's "Big Love" as we were on the road, and so this is the first I've heard that Margene is preggers! I am going to have to try and catch a re-run now! I leave town for one week and look what happens . . .

Drex-

I am thinking about smells . . . (that sounds funny out of context <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) For me, I have always loved the smell of coffee because it reminds me of my grandma's house. But H, I don't know . . . I've not ever asked him about that. I am thinking it's got to be a food smell, though. His favorite dinner, or his favorite cookies, that always gets him excited. (I don't imagine that they make a "mashed potato" or "prime rib" scented candle, though. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) He's also really big with being outdoors--loves being in the mountains. So that type of smell might really connect for him also. I'll have to give that a try . . .

-C.

Hi Drexxel,

It's the little things that mean alot...I think you accomplished MUCH MUCH more last night by talking than by dancing. Although it didn't meet your EN for Touch...:) You are showing your W that you can have fun, good conversations, etc...very good!

As for smells, same as CSJ, I have not asked H but I'm thinking maybe chocolate chip cookies for my H, since he loves when I bake them. For me, I'm not really sure...he doesn't wear cologne so that's not it...I do like the smell of lavender, or the ocean...Maybe the ocean for both of us, now that I think of it. CSJ, maybe a Pine or Forest candle for your H would do the trick for outdoors.

CSJ,
As for Big Love, I hope I didn't spoil anything for you. I watched it last night, and at the end, Margene came downstairs and announced it to the other wives and the kids...So I think this is the latest episode. Last week's episode was when Barb's sister came over and took her kids to visit their grandmother (Barb's mother), who basically disowned her when she got married to Bill, I guess...And this was when one of the older girls got baptised in the pool in the backyard, and Margene had Bill baptise her also, to show that she is committed to the family.

MF- No, you didn't spoil it at all. In fact, it hadn't really occurred to me that I had missed Sunday's episode! We were in El Paso that night and I wasn't really connecting that it was our "Sopranos/Big Love" night. I would have watched this Sunday and thought, "Hey--when did this happen?!?!"

And I think you're right about a pine candle. That would be good and "manly."

Drex- I agree with MF that your talk probably earned you more Love Bank deposits that anything else. Most women (including myself) find a good talk like that so meaningful. That's probably just what she needed to re-connect with you emotionally. I love that when my H and I just talk. We got a lot of that accomplished in the car on our road trip.

Shout out to HF and F&L--how y'all doing today? Hope all is well . . .

-C.

Hi CSJ,

I'm big on conversation too. My H is more to the point...Why talk just to talk ? is more of his mantra...No surprise when he scored that low on his EN list. He is perfectly happy to just sit in silence.

Pine also reminds me of Christmas because of the tree....

Well I'm getting ready to leave here in a little while. We may stop and get a pizza on the way home tonight. Either that or stop at the store and pick up some catfish for my H to fry tonight...Drexx, he's from VA Beach and is a big seafood fan...Makes the best crabcakes ever!

Have a good night y'all!

When we did the ENQ, conversation was one of her needs. I'm all over that. There were no complaints, no ways to improve, according to her. She was "very satisfied" with all aspects of that EN. I did pretty well on her others, but conversation was in her top 5 and I've been nailing that for the entire time we've been married. Working on the others now. We've agreed to take the ENQ every couple of months to reevaluate where we are.

You're right. I have a need for physical touch. I didn't get a lot of that as a kid and now it's manifesting itself. I won't get into a lot of that right now, but my wife is getting better about it. I can pretty much give her all the physical attention I want to. That's another thing she said I was all over in the ENQ, though that's not in her top 5. She did state it was one of the reasons she fell in love with me in the first place.

Here's where the problem lies. SF is in the top 5 for both of us. Sooo, what do we do?

Drex-

I noticed on a thread written for WW's that some of them had a hard time getting intimacy with their BS's started again--and I'm sure your W is experiencing many of their same feelings. I didn't really read much, but what I gathered was it was partly guilt-based, and partly that they just weren't "feeling it." Which I think is purely a function of the way women are wired. They've got to have that emotional connection before they can get the fire going. Generalization, I know, but seems to be true for the most part. So if that's part of your W's hang-up, I think you are really laying some terrific groundwork! You've had a series of really good connections with her lately: dancing, good conversation . . .

I say just keep doing what your doing, and to borrow a phrase from a pretty wise individual, keep "salting the oats." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Like maybe you should plan a special date for this weekend--something really romantic. Make her an invitation for a trip--a fake plane ticket to Paris--a menu of an exotic French meal--whatever theme you think will catch her mood. Just something to get some atmosphere started, you know? That will give her several days to get the mood ready. You could even loose the kids for the night to make it extra-special . . .

-C.

Post deleted by Drexxell

I want to apologize for that last vent for anyone who even read it. I'm going to delete it.

Issues from my childhood are haunting me, I suppose. My father was an incredibly abusive SOB. That, in and of itself, is bad enough. But when the childs main love language is physical touch or one of their top five, and in my case, most important EN is affection, that kind of childhood does a huge amount of emotional trauma.

Physical touch or affection is, to me, such an intense measure of personal self worth. A single touch can elevate me to highs above all else and the withholding of a touch can leave me feeling repulsive and rejected on all levels. Normally, I dealt with it ok, but now I'm just emotionally drained.

I told my precious wife on Sunday just how deeply my need for physical touch was and that I was starving for it. It's one thing when we go dancing and I can embrace her. It's something completely different when SHE reaches for MY hand.

So, Sunday night there was SF. It was beautiful and happened out of love and was just right on all the levels it needed to be right on. Monday was her down day and she recanted Sunday night on an emotional level. She said she didn't want it leading to expectations that things were going to go back to normal. Last night, I guess it all just caved in on me. I felt like Sunday wasn't good enough. Then I felt like "I" wasn't good enough.

Last night wasn't even about SF. I was starving to be touched. Something... anything... Well, of course, she was asleep. So, I just cuddled her, held her sleeping little hand, placed kisses on her sleeping little shoulder, trying to find some small comfort in giving her what I so desperately needed. The comfort never came. By 3am or so, I literally felt devastated.

I feel so bad and so selfish because she does lots of things to make me feel good. Like, when I made breakfast for dinner, everyone was eating the bacon and eggs while I made the pancakes and she didn't want my eggs to get cold, so she got up and fed me my eggs while I made the pancakes. In that moment, I felt princely. Now here I am all weepy because she won't reach for my hand.

Through blinding tears I explained to her this morning how I felt when she touched me and when she didn't. I explained again how important touch was to me. I asked her what I had to do to earn her touch and she said she didn't know. Eventually, she took my hand and held me and caressed my back and wiped my tears and I couldn't appreciate it because I was just hurt and angry.

Well, she had to go to work, so here I am, wallowing.

CSJ - I'm certain she's dealing with a lot of guilt. The only reason she gives, though, is not wanting to create expectations. She's in an avoidance/avoidance conflict, if you know what that is.

This weekend, we've got stuff planned. More dancing on Friday night, saturday just kind of a lounge day, Sunday she said she "might" go to church with the kids and I. We'll see about that. Monday is her b-day, which just happens to mark the 2 month anniversary of D-Day. Not sure how that will turn out, but we've got stuff planned for that too.

I guess I'll stop making everyone's morning bad now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Have a great day. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey everyone
Just wanted to let you all know I am alive. I have been sooooo busy but will check back in later. Just skimmed through but seems everyone is doing well. Drex you are stronger than you think and are in my thoughts. Just keep being you she will come around.

Talk with you all soon.
HF

Drex,

I didn't read your previous post. I don't really get on her too much at night. I'm usually here after my daughter goes to school then I'm off to do other stuff. But, it's ok to get angry and it's ok to vent. In the beginning, I used to get so angry I just wanted to slap the crap out of my husband -wanted to scream at the top of my lungs. I have that hot Hungarian blood running thru my veins.

As the months go by, things will get calmer and more normal - but it's not easy - you will have so many ups and downs - happy, sad, depressed, tears, angry - round and round. We all need that emotional support/comfort at this traumatic time - but sometimes our spouses forget this. They don't mean to do this - but they do - without realizing it and we're left hanging.

I know there's always two sides to a story......but I can't image what woman would cheat on you? You write so beautifully and how you talk about your wife! Any woman would love to be treated like this and have things said to her like you do. And you cook and iron!!!!!

2 months is nothing - you've got a long way to go. My husband and I were still fighting like "cats and dogs" at 6 months. Yes, I know you're not supposed to do that - but not everything works the way it's supposed to. In my case, I was doing all the work to rebuild the marriage - in my husband's case he was fighting me all the way. Just think of Monday as her birthday, not D-Day anniversary.

Just keep treating her nice, you do that well. Have fun dancing on Friday - you know I love to dance. Can't wait for the disco concert on June 10 - I'm going to dance my butt off with my oldest daughter - she's a "chip off the old block".

Take care,

Hi Drexxel,

{{{{{HUGS}}}}} (I don't know if I did that right!) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I hope you are having a better morning now. I think what you are going through is "normal"...Your W doesn't want you to create expectations--I can understand this. From my perspective, it was the opposite situation. My H wanted to have SF with me to show his love for me...I didn't want to do it--was not ready for it...After it happened and it was wonderful, I felt the rollercoaster go down again...Like, okay, now he thinks, we did it so everything is back to normal because we did it. Maybe that is how she is feeling...Like you are thinking that she is over the A and now will be up for SF like before, etc...

What CSJ says about women being wired differently is true...but honestly I think you are very intuitively meeting her ENs for conversation and affection all day long...You already are "salting the oats"...What happened on Sunday night happened because it had to happen. No planning was involved, it was just a natural course of events. Perhaps it took your wife by surprise. She may have had no intentions of having SF and then it happened. She tried to rewrite history as the WS do, by recanting it.

It's kind of like she's thinking, once you do it, you can't go back...Think back to when you were with a new girlfriend or in High school...You are thinking about when you are going to have SF with this person...enjoying the time with them but also wanting SF. Once you actually do it, you tend to have SF more often, and not do other things. Maybe she is concerned that now that you have done it, you will stop doing these other things (dancing, etc)...

Drex, I really feel for you right now. You are on a roller coaster and it truly sucks. The plight of the BS is that we have to be the ones to give, especially in the beginning when the WS is in withdrawal...She is DEEP in withdrawal. You are so early in this process...Don't expect too much of her now...Focus on you and the kids as you have been doing...Keep at it...

She is making small steps==hugging you and taking your hand...don't push her for more before she is ready..Hang in there.

Not having ENs met is unfortunately what brought most of us together on this board in the first place. I can't imagine that if I feel this badly after not having this need met for 2 months what's it's going to feel like in 6 months or a year. Maybe I'll just go numb and not have to feel any of it.

I understand that my sweet wife has to sort through her own issues to be happy, but dad gum it, I have to be happy too and touching myself ain't gonna cut the mustard! Ho hum. I hear the set of Winnie the Pooh is looking for a voice over artist for Eore. How does this sound? "I guess I don't need a tail anyway."

Drex,

Eeyore, huh? I was thinking you were more like Tigger...Lots of energy...:) I don't think any of us read your late night post, so don't worry about that.

Everyone has their Eeyore days....Believe me we all have them...You are not alone...

The ironic thing about the marriage after DDay is that the BS is trying to meet all the WS's ENs with a passion. You think, well now that I am meeting his/her ENs, he/she will meet mine too...Unfortunately it doesn't always happen that way. I know that it didn't for me...I was the one trying to meet his ENs.. He said SF and Affection were lacking, so that's what I focused on--Never rejected him for SF after DDay...Kissed him hello/goodbye..more hugs for no reason...touched him when walking by...all these little things I did...And you know what, if I didn't make the first move, I got nothing in return. When he would leave, he wouldn't kiss me goodbye...No hugs for no reason...Very affectionate w/ the kids--never lets them leave without a kiss...While I stand there waiting, sometimes get a kiss, most of the times not, even now...

And my H was not in deep withdrawal as your W is...I think he was more emotionally involved than he admits, but still not as much as your W. Even SF was lacking for a few weeks--he had NO interest at all. This, from a man who says the only reason he had an A was for SF...This doesn't make sense does it?!? He could do it with OW all the time, but with me, no. The only explanation is guilt, shame, I guess. I don't understand it still.

Reread SAA...Harley says, give it about 6 wks after NC for withdrawal to fade away. That's after NC, NOT after DDay...You are just at the beginning, Drex...

You have to give her time and space...It's not fair, by a long shot. My H talked alot about how he was willing to do anything to rebuild our M, but actions speak louder than words and he still has not come forward to try to meet my ENs...It's something about the WS that I will never understand...

You will get through this...I know that you will....

I'll check back later...

Yes, I have read and studied the "Harley 4" collection. Sometimes when you're caught up in your emotions, you really can't see past the "right now" of your situation. At least it's that way for me. This happens to me every now and again. About 12-15 hours of depression then several days of doing just fine and upbeat. Doc offered ADs, but I still don't want them.

We've been kind of e-mailing back and forth this morning. She's occupied with work stuff at the moment and is not at her desk. I sent her an e-mail, very supportive, loving, love letter kind of thing. In the off chance that something happened when I left to take care of things today, I didn't want the last thing we talked about to be something negative.

I've got IC in about 90 minutes and we've got MC tonight. I'll make it through the day. One foot in front of the other. Breathe in, breathe out.

You're right. It doesn't seem fair in the least. I've got a huge sense of entitlement going on. Hopefully, I can shelf that because I believe it will just get in the way.

It's funny, when I'm not in my 12-15 hours of depression per week, I can sit and psychoanalize myself just fine. The depression really clouds my thinking to the point where I get down right selfish. It seriously turns into a "What about me?" party. One thing I've always been able to do since this started was to choose my words very carefully. While my message might not always be crystal clear, I have never said anything that I've had to take back.

My lovable wife said she would call me around 3 this afternoon. I'll be better able to judge how she's doing then. On a positive note, Sunday was the first time that she's kissed me since D-Day. There hasn't been a day go by since Sunday that we haven't kissed and hugged when she went to work, got home or when we go to bed. And sometimes just for no other reason than I want to. I don't think she's as emotionally detached from Sunday as she leads on. It really was beautiful and powerful. She had told me earlier in the day Sunday that she wouldn't do SF unless it was out of love. I asked her before we started SF, "Is this out of love?" She replied, "It has to be."

She still hasn't said ILY. And really, that doesn't bother me as much as not having the physical touch EN filled, although words of affirmation are certainly important to me. I love my wife so much... It's very difficult sometimes when it's not reciprocated. I know I'm not saying aything new, but I really hurt in my heart when I feel like I'm the only one working on reconciliation. When she says things like, "I can't give you what I don't have." (in reference to physical affection) it just tears me up inside and I have to put on a clown face and internalize until I get to a place where I can let go.

Well, I'm going to get going. Have a couple things to accomplish before I head out the door. Thanks for the shoulders. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Morning all!

I am thinking Drex is more like a Tigger too--I know a lot of Eeyores, and they are not nearly as entertaining. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Seriously though, hang in there! You have had some amazing success so far, so allow yourself to be encouraged about that. Take a look in the mirror and recognize that you are tackling one of life's greatest challenges with grace and style. Part of this journey is rediscovering ourselves as well as our marriages. There are so many ups and downs on this thing that we all have plenty of bad days. And they will be mixed in with some good ones, too. You are still very early on in this process, and that makes it tough. Really, we all are! Dr. H says it takes 2 YEARS to recover! So we all need to pace ourselves. That's one nice thing about this place--we can all take turns helping eachother out during the bad times.

One "silver lining" to being the clueless BS (me) is that we got through the fogged-out stuff and the withdrawl without my ever recognizing what it was. By the time I found out about the A, my H was very apologetic and ready to show some effort here and there. Early on he was VERY attentive--even left me a love note one morning, and would call during the day to see how I was doing. He has NEVER done these things before. So that gave me a little shot in the arm at first. But that quickly faded, and now he wants to just go one like everything was before. Forget all about it . . . So you see, this two steps forward and one step back is totally normal. We are all right there, too.

And it's NOT fair! We worry so much about meeting the WW's needs, all the while our own go on neglected. The BS gets saddled with all the work of rebuilding what someone else broke. Not fair. But, as an old friend of mine used to say, "Life isn't Fair. Fair is where you go to see the pigs."

But keep in mind that Dr. H suggests a time limit on some of this stuff. It's not expected that the BS should become a doormat. I told myself from the very beginning that I would give my marriage a chance, and I would put in 100% from my end for one year. I will not cut and run, even when I feel like I want to. I will stick it out, and then after a year ask myself if there is enough progress to justify staying. And I am not suggesting that a year is the magic number for everyone--but for me that seemed like a fair enough time to evaluate where we are. We don't need to be "recovered" by then--just to a point where I can see that I am not hurting myself and my kids by staying in a marriage that is irrevocably harmed.

So my point here (yes, there is one) is that you need to give yourself some time. You will continue to hurt--you will continue to have some really bad days. You can't expect for this thing to be healed right away. What you CAN expect is to keep moving forward, little by little. And I think you are doing a great job!

Keep up the good fight, everyone!

-C.

Good luck at IC...I know what you mean about the hours of depression...I also did not go on ADs...Most of the time, I do just fine, trying to get through all of the stuff that has to be done in a day...But when I sit and think like Eeyore, I just sink deeper and deeper...Luckily I usually come out of it when I look at my kids...

Have a good day!

I am the same way--as long as I stay busy, I feel okay. Work and my kids are my salvation. The minute I feel bored I am in real trouble . . .

Yep, and when I allow myself to actually THINK...Watch out!!

MF-any good plans for Memorial Day?????

We are planning a camping trip, and the girls are soooooo excited. Of course, the weather may not cooperate as we had hoped, so we'll have to cross our fingers that we don't get rained out. DD1 has even taken to to rolling out her sleeping bag next to her bed and sleeping in that. Four-year-olds are so . . . weird. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

-C.

Funny you mention me as Tigger... LOL YEARS ago when DS14 was a wee little one, we were watching Winnie on VHS with my sis in law and my gorgeous wife. I forget which tape specifically, but Tigger was riding a vacuum cleaner looking for a lost something or another and yelling out "SQUANKEE!" Ever since that day, my sis and law and I call each other Squankee. It's hilarious. Everyone in the whole family gets in on it too. "Hey, what did you get for Christmas from Squankee?"

I'm feeling better. I'm just physically exhausted. Didn't sleep last night. I just got off the phone with my darling wife a few minutes ago. She'll be home soon and has promised me a great big hug. Apparently, my love letters work wonders because she was quoting part of todays back to me. WHILE SHE WAS DRIVING. Memory of an elephant, I swear. Good thing she doesn't look like one. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

She seems in a really up beat mood. She said she'd drive us to MC tonight because I'm so tired. Going to leave early enough so that she can get me something to eat and pay me the milkshake she owes me. LOL Try this on for size. You'll be less emotional if you're not tired. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey everyone,

Squankee, I mean, Drexxel,

Glad to hear that you are feeling better. Yes, sleep deprivation does tend to make one emotional. I also did not sleep well. Getting very tired now that it is the end of my (work) day...We told you that you were doing all the right things, and see how they worked wonders?! Feel free to vent to us anytime..

CSJ,

No big plans. Weather is iffy at best. Some weatherpersons say it will rain , others say it will be nice. We have Tball on Sat, church on Sun, and then the town parade on Mon, weather permitting. We never had big plans on the holidays=-my H always had to work. But we would usually go to the parade at least.

Have never gone camping. A guy here at work is going camping in his RV, complete with A/C, DVD player/TV, grill, etc. I could camp out in an environment like this...:) It's better than being home...No dishes to wash--use paper plates~!

Hopingfor,

Thanks for popping in....glad to hear that you are doing well...

Well, gotta wrap it up here. Make sure you get your milkshake, Drexx!

Talk to you all later,

Hey Everyone,

Camping is not for me - unless I am in an RV, like MF said with all the extras right in the RV. The only other place I would go camping is in a log cabin. I don't like bugs, snakes or I don't want a bear to take a bite out of my butt. I have a deadly fear of snakes.

In our old house, while I was doing yard work, a big snake came out of the ground, well it was big to me, about a foot - I got so scared I ran towards the wooden gate, but didn't realize it opened the opposite way. I broke down the gate to get out. I HATE SNAKES. CSJ - you must get plenty of them. I have this fear because when I was little my grandmom used to tell me ghost stories - I still remember. One of them was about a snake who bit a guy to death - I've been afraid of them ever since. My family always makes fun of me. I don't even like to see them in a zoo. YUK!!!!


My husband always says he wants to someday buy a log cabin in the Pocono’s, PA.....I said only if it has all the amenities. My home that I live in is country enough - I want to be able to go to the store - without driving 10 miles. I want to be able to go out and see some form of life other than trees and wild animals. Even now, I have all kinds of animals in my yard, skunks, opossums, moles, squirrels, deer and chipmunks - they're wild enough for me.

TO ALL.....WORK IS EVERYONE'S SALVATION........if you keep busy - you won't have time to think about depressing thoughts.

We're probably going to have my husband's brothers over this weekend - they are really cool - love them like they were my own brothers - I don't have any siblings. My husband enjoys having them over - he reminisces about how he tortured them when they were younger - he is the oldest. We have plenty of Corona's, good food, wine and we just relax. Last Memorial Day my husband invited the OW over - hate to think of what a dummy I was giving her a kiss hello and goodbye - YUK again!!!! Cheap tramp, X$%%^%***bbb, xxuett$$$$.

On Memorial Day I promised my youngest that she could have some of her friends over - we went to the Dollar Store to buy squirt guns for them - plus, tubes for the pool - they think they are going in - they have another thing coming to them - the pool is under 60 degrees - better them than me. But, anyway they should have fun. I'll cook them some burgers and hot dogs and they can run around like a bunch of kids let out of a cage and have a great time.

Our weekend is supposed to be nice - probably 80 degrees. Hope every one has a good one. I'm almost finished with my stones. Tomorrow I'll be cleaning up for the weekend.

Drexxell......give yourself some time......if you want something bad enough - it will happen. Just remember the ups and downs are normal -we all have them - that's why we are here. CSJ is right....you have to give yourself a time limit.....if you see yourself progressing - then move forward.....but, if no progress is made - then you have to take another alternative. The time limit is up to you - but do advise your spouse of this.

Adios Amigos........

Hello All,

Just figured I would bump this up. The board was busy last night...our thread was buried.

I hope everyone had a good night and is getting ready for the holiday. My night was OK. We watched "Everybody Hates Chris" (based on Chris Rock's childhood)...Good show. My H then watched the basketball playoffs (again! Will they ever end??) I went to sleep--couldn't stay up any longer. My H and I are kind of in a silent treatment standoff right now, although we speak when we have to...This morning, he made and brought me my coffee--his way of making up, I guess. He hasn't done this in months...It's funny how when I start to detach/withdraw from him, he notices it...It throws him off because I've been so accommodating, trying to meet all his ENs for so long (like we have been talking about here). This week, I have been doing alot of serious thinking about myself and my ENs..Have not been big into conversation with him as my usual self. So we will see if this is a wakeup call for him...I would like to review our EN questionnaires at the least, this weekend.

CSJ,
You never said in your trip report if you and your H were able to um, reconnect via SF? Not trying to put you on the spot...but just curious?


F&L, I also HATE snakes...My son brought home two books about snakes from school. I couldn't even look at them...I hope our weather turns out better. The kids want to go to the beach. The water must be freezing!

Everyone,

Enjoy the weekend. Try to put any issues aside and just make some nice memories of a Memorial Day weekend for your kids.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi Everyone,

Want to wish everyone a Happy Memorial Day. It's raining here right now - but now hard - very humid. We're supposed have good weather here for the rest of the weekend - about 80 degrees.

MF - I love "Everybody hates Chris" - that's one of our favorite comedies. I missed it last night. That kid that plays Chris is so perfect for that role. His father is so funny - he's so cheap! I hate that red headed kid that always teases Chris. I loved the Halloween episode - when the mom thru out the candy and the dad was calculating the dollars and cents going in the garbage.

Everyone - just enjoy the holiday like MF said - we all need to have a good time and be happy.

Hi everyone
Yes CSJ I was wondering about the reconnection too...not to pry but wheres the juicy stuff..haha.

Things have been going well since my breakdown with H last week. He has been very patient with me.

We went to MC and he basicaly tells me I need to work on me...get hobbies etc. Its hard for me I really dont care to do anything else besides be with H. I go on girls nights maybe once a month and away with the girls 2 times a year. I think thats enough. I want to spend my time with him and the family. MC kinda made me feel like a loser. My H is very sociable and I think I am too but he is always looking for a party.

I guess we all know the kids come aalong and everything changes. I became responsible and gave up me and he became party guy. We became 2 seperste people and MC thinks I need to find something for me. I just dont find that to be the problem.

F&L and everyone really said that working keeps your mind off the A. I dont have that. I fold laundry I think about it. I unload the dishwasher I think about something else. It is hard not to have a distraction to keep me busy but I have found I am getting a little better as far as I can think about other things in a day.

Oh well...F&l thanks for the rain update. It must be moving its way up I just heard thunder.

Hope everyone has a good holiday weekend!
HF

Hey F&L,

Last night's episode of EHC was good. You know how the mother loves those Turtles candies? Well money was tight so the H and W agreed to cut back. But she had to give up her Turtles and H had to give up buying lottery tickets. It was funny! You can probably catch it in reruns...

Have a good weekend all!

Afternoon everyone!

It sounds like everyone is gearing up for a good holiday! We won't be roughing it too much on this trip. We borrow my in-law's fifth wheel trailer when we go camping, so it has a little kitchen, bathroom, bedroom, and a few seats that fold out into beds. This is as "back to nature" as I get, folks. (Although back in the day, I was a hard-core camper. Little known trivia about CSJ: My undergrad degree was in ARCHAEOLOGY!!!! I lived in a tent for 2 months while on a dig in the Nevada desert. Did this for several summers. Then I came back and went to law school <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Civilization is good.)

Anyway, got my last-minute errands done for the trip this morning. Camping food, some folding chairs for the girls, a book for me to read as I relax. (We had a chair for DD1 that we used last year, and DD2 wanted her own--but of course once DD1 saw the beautiful Disney Princess camping chair--her old was was a dim memory. We got 2 chairs. I am a sucker.) The other great thing about these camping trips is that we generally go with 2 other families (H's two buddies and their families.) The men do all the cooking--and they are actually pretty good (well, one of them is. My H just pitches in.) Have you ever heard of dutch oven cooking? I don't know if that's a big thing out East or not. Here, it is quite popular. You use a big cast-iron pot, and cook with charcoal underneath and on top of it. It cooks very slowly, but is delicious. Anyway, I get to put my feet up for a few days, play with the kids, and feel pretty pampered, even though I am living in a camp trailer. Its nice.

MF--you asked about romance on the trip? Well, I am sorry to report that I got no SF. But it really wasn't my fault this time! At least I don't think it was. I brought a really beautiful nighty, and I thought that would really send the message. But I climbed into bed, and he finished reading a few pages in his book. He turned out the light, gave me a kiss and said "good night." What the . . . ?

But we had been having such a nice time otherwise, I decided to cut him some slack. I tried again the next night, same thing. I just laid there in the dark and started crying. So finally he figured out that something was wrong. (Why are men so *@$%*&@ dense, anyway???? Sorry, Drex--not you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) So I told him I felt like he wasn't interested in me at all, and he apologized, and very politely blamed me--pointing out that I had really froze him out the other times that he had tried so he didn't dare try anything. (Somewhere in there I also accused him of getting back with OW--told him I was dead inside--real drama queen stuff. F&L--if your H thinks you're a drama queen--just tell him he needs to meet me first) Anyway, he assured me that he wasn't seeing OW, he loves me, and held me all night long, telling me how sorry he is that he hurt me.

So any romantic mood was pretty much blown--then after that we were staying with his brother, and that would have just been awkward.

Sigh . . . Ladies, I just don't know what to do here. I mean, my H and I were never the real active libido type to begin with. So maybe the sexual connection was never what it should have been. But my H was not interested several times a week--he never was. Not even with the OW! They got together 3-4 times a month, according to my H, and based on my memory of his schedule back then, I think this is about right.

But I had always made a point of not refusing him--if he was in the mood, I got myself in the mood, because I know that this is important to men. So the ONLY time I said no to him sexually was after DD2, and I was still feeling pretty funky, so I asked him to wait a little. He started his A soon afterwards. I think we had SF twice during that awful year. So for me, it's been long enough that I don't think that I even miss it anymore. But obviously the SF thing is part of why this all happened, and we just can't seem to get back on track. I think this is the main reason that six months after DDay I am still rolling around in my head the idea of leaving him.

Anyway, I guess I am going to have to be more aggressive here, because I have scared him away from approaching me. I've been thinking about getting a kama sutra book or something. Anyone have one of those--are they any good? And this weekend is out because of the camping with friends thing. Although I guess we could hang one of those signs on the door--you know, the ones that say "If this camper's rockin', don't come knockin'" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

But have a good weekend everyone! I will try to check back later, but in any case, MF is right--make some nice memories everybody!

-C.

Holy cow!! 4 days between posts?! I thought I'd be reading half the day to catch up!!!

We had a great weekend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I got my milkshake. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> MC went very well. Dancing on Friday till our feet hurt. Lazy day on Saturday. DD10 got to pick a restaurant for dinner one night cause she got a letter from the president about her grades. DS14 got to pick the next night cause his grades were just slightly higher than DD10s. LOL My sweet wife got to pick on Mon cause it was her b-day.

Sunday went pretty well. Kinda thought my adorable wife might go to church with us. Maybe next week. She asked me to allow her her "Crisis of faith". Stayed up till like 2:30 am though just talking and playing a video game together. I said something about being sleepy and it being bed time. My beautiful wife says to me, "It's too bad you're so sleepy." O.o Well, we went to bed, but sleeping wasn't involved till about 4:00 am. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Her ADs are really kicking in and leveling out her moods.

Monday was a great day. Lots of family time, a little b-day shopping, playing "monkey in the middle" with the kids and a frisbee in the yard. Dinner at my fine wife's choice... a Japanese Steak House, you know, where the guy comes out and cooks right there in front of you, makes dumb jokes, throws shrimp at you. Yum! We had to take last night off. She recently had her IUD changed and is still in the "adjustment" period. This one has the hormone release in it. Dunno how that'll effect her emotionally, but the doc and the MC know about it.

Going to have lunch with her today. Oy, I've got tons of laundry to do. It's funny that she said domestic support was one of her ENs, so I was tearin up some housework. A few weeks ago, she says something about the weekends are really the only time we have to spend a lot of time together and asked how much time I spent on laundry during the week cause I was washing clothes. Since that day, I've not done any house work on the weekends unless it was a big spring cleaning thing that she and I were both involved in. We spent a couple hours on Friday cleaning our office.

So, last weekend, she mentioned in a round about way how she noticed I wasn't doing laundry on the weekend and was spending time with her and she liked that. It's getting better. She's gotten more affectionate with me. I'm feeling a lot better. I was hugging her last night and she asked me if I thought we were going to make it. I told her I thought if we worked at it, we could pass with flying colors. She told me her fear of me throwing all this back in her face sometime down the road. This is all stemming from us not addressing the As 7 years ago. I told her I was going to do it right this time and not make the same mistakes.

CSJ -- I'm not sure, but I think I mentioned on this thread before that when guys are turned down for SF they take it as a personal rejection and it's really a big deal to them. Definate blow to the ego. Now then, I'm not saying that's what happened at all. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I only say that to say this, when he said to you that he didn't try to initiate SF because you had been cold and turned him down in the past, this is what he's saying. I don't want to be rejected. He's not saying that he doesn't want to be with you.

Should that come up again, so to speak, where we says that, you've got to disarm him and take that excuse away from him. Instead of getting upset and waiting for him to notice, get aggressive. Say, "Listen, I bought this new nightie, and I would really appreciate it if you came over here and told me what you thought about it. Yes, of course, I know it's dark in here, so I guess you'll just have to use your hands to look at it." Be playful and slightly impish. You'll get his attention and he won't have that to use. If he tries to say it again, just put your finger on his lips and shake your head no. Unless he's completely dense, he'll get the message.

Best wishes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Drexxel,

Glad to hear that you had a great weekend. It sounds like the ADs are working for your wife, and all of your work has paid off...I agree with her on the housework - do what you can during the week to free up your couple and family time...It sounds like you got the message on that so that's good. I love those Japanese steakhouses! Lots of fun and good food. And congrats on the smart kids!


CSJ,
I'm with Drexxel on the SF. You are going to have to reassure him and take the lead here...He is not going to chance being rejected so you will have to make it crystal clear that you want him....As for the Kama Sutra book, that may be an icebreaker, so you may want to buy one, wrap it up and give it to him. Tell him, "I got you a book to read in bed tonight..." (since you mention that he likes to read). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

So when you come back from your camping trip, this is your assignment...Okay?? No excuses...

My weekend was okay. Had a bit of a health scare on Friday night but it turned out okay. I had a sharp pain in my side for a week, and it started to go into my chest. Went to the dr and they did an EKG which came back abnormal. So I had to have a stress test on my heart, and they injected this dye into me to take images of my heart. Not exactly my idea of making memories for the holiday. But it all turned out fine. They couldn't explain that one abnormal EKG when the rest of them were okay. They said I probably pulled a muscle in my side from picking up the baby and the carrier and everything else. They said it is probably stress related. This hit my H like a ton of bricks. He really did a lot of thinking during this crisis, and stepped up to the plate as far as taking care of the kids most of the weekend. I had to stay away from the kids overnight because of the radioactive dye (remeember that 80s song, I'm radioactive). Anyway, it all worked out well. We had a great weekend otherwise...hung out at a friend's pool and got sunburned, my H let me rest alot, so we had a nice weekend. He wouldn't even let me go to church on sunday because he wanted me to rest. I guess he realized that everything catches up with me...he said that he knew it was just stress, all his fault, that I have to take care of myself. I said, yeah, us calm types hold it all inside and it just eats away at us...

So, that's about it for now...Hope everyone else had a good weekend!

Wow! Pretty quiet here today--I hope that means that everyone had a really mellow holiday weekend.

Ours went pretty well, although the weather didn't exactly cooperate. It got pretty chilly a few nights, and even during the daytime there were some spells where it was windy and it was just better to stay in the trailer. But we had brought along some activities for the kids, and since there were other kids, they would go from trailer to trailer to check everyone else's toys out. And for the most part, they played outside and just ignored the chill in the air. One of the guys even brought his pony up, so the kids all got to ride a bit. So we made the best of things, and had a good time. H planned another little camping trip in a few weeks, this one will just be one night. We will ride horses, and there is a covered wagon for the kids. It's a pretty short ride, and then you camp for the night. So I am looking forward to that, also. The really positive thing is that my H is planning recreational activities that he really enjoys, and including me and the kids. I see that as some real improvement.

And I decided to take a little initiative myself, and I wrote H a letter. It is hard for us to talk about what has happened to us. I get emotional and really can't talk, and H has never been one to converse on an emotional level to begin with. He can carry on a very nice conversation, but ask him to describe how he feels about something, and he becomes mute. To give you an idea, we had been dating for many months and hadn't really had a relationship talk at all, beyond confirming that we weren't seeing other people. One afternoon he took me on a ride to look at parcels of ground, and towards the end he smiles and says, "hey, we could have a farm!" And I am thinking, "we??????" So when he asked later that night which parcel I liked best, I finally asked: "Are you asking because you just value my opinion, or are you asking because you planned on me living there, too?" And he laughed and said, "of course you would live there." So that finally started the conversation where we got engaged. He now tells people that I proposed to him. I guess he is sort-of right, because I was the one who brought the topic up. But seriously, when was he going to mention it? He is charming in a rugged, caveman sort of way.

Anyway, I am feeling that the guilt thing for him is still a big stumbling block. He just doesn't know what to do to "fix" me (I think you mentioned this about men Drex--that men are "fixers"--this is soooooo true with my H!). And I think that, despite my attempts to verbalize things with him, he just doesn't register that when he acts sullen and quiet, it hurts me, because it makes me feel like he doesn't love me anymore, and would rather be with OW. So I wrote out a letter, so I could phrase things exactly the way I wanted to, and he could have as much time as he wanted to read it and process it. I told him that I don't want to be "settled for" and that I deserve to be cherished. I told him that we both needed to make our best efforts to show each other that we cherish one another. I told him about a spiritual experience I had years ago about marrying him--and how I still knew that we were supposed to be together. And I told him to stop feeling guilty, because I love him and I am going to be able to forgive him.

He didn't say anything to me about the letter (I didn't expect him to, as this would require him to talk about his feelings. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) But last night he held me really tight, and I checked this morning and saw that he kept the letter in a box that he has where he keeps all of his keepsakes. So hopefully, that will help us both along a bit.

And now I have some really great advice from Drex--who is completely fluent in the male language! Thanks so much, honestly. Sometimes I feel like I am loosing it, and I just don't know what to do. But you're giving me some really good ideas, so I am grateful to you.

And MF--I accept my assignment! And I am glad you are going okay!

Anyhow, I will check back later to see if anyone else has a weekend report.

Cheers!
-C.

Hi all,

MF.....I completely forgot that you were having the pains in your side. If you remember I also had pains in my chest and they proceeded to go down my left arm - my arms and legs got tingly -the pain in my chest was so bad I thought I was going to pass out - well, I did by the time the ambulance came - I left the door open. Went to the hospital and they took all kinds of tests, blood, x-rays, etc. It was an anxiety attack, from all the stress I was going thru - you mind is a terrible thing. Most likely, that's all it is - but I know what you mean about the pain. Glad everything came out negative. Good luck tomorrow.

Drex......glad things are going better for you....you deserve it. I also try to do everything during the week, so I can do stuff with my husband. The only problem is if he sees me doing very little on the weekend - he thinks I have the magical fairy doing stuff during the week - you know, things get done by themselves. Doesn't it make you feel good when your children come home with good grades - makes you feel so proud!!!! Congrats to them. Your wife's medication should make a big difference in her attitude - less ups and downs, anger, depression, etc.

CSJ.....I also wrote my husband a letter shortly after D-Day and poured my heart out to him. The day before I took out a letter that I had written over 20 yrs. ago to him - the day after we had a big fight - even then he used to make me cry. He read the letter and couldn't believe how the words I said then and the words I said now, were so similar. I put the letter in his lunch bag so he could read it when I wasn't around. My feelings have not changed. I wrote in the second letter that I will keep it in a safe place and perhaps we can read it again in another 20 yrs. Sometimes, it is easier to write things down. Keep your letter or let your husband keep it and open it many years from now. So you met him in "jail" and you proposed to him????

It is hot as heck here!!! Today it is 85 degrees. I'm sweating bullets typing this - but tomorrow is supposed cool down.

We had a fairly good weekend - except for a small fight last night - but, it's in the past. I just can't change my husband's sit down and do nothing attitude. I run around like a "nut" and he can't even acknowledge how hard I work. All I want is a thank you, or boy, you're a good cook, or boy, you work hard, what a good job you did, is that too much to ask? The other thing that's driving me crazy is he keeps saying he hates women and doesn't trust any woman. The way he says it - it sounds like he's including me - very demeaning. It's getting a little annoying.

Talk to you all later.......

So what, you think I sound desperate or something? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

-C

CSJ,

I don't know????? That was a cute story. Hey, what's the sense of "beating around the bush" right? Us cavewomen have to get right to the point!

Good morning,

Hope all is ok today with everyone. I know MF will not be here today.

I was thinking yesterday that our D-Day will be coming up soon - 1 year - it was in June of last year. Then I thought, wow it's June 6th. But then I thought about it again, it's the sixth month, the sixth day, and the sixth year in 2000. What's that 6/6/06 - is that weird????? Isn't 666 the "number of the beast"? Gave me the creeps. How many times do those numbers come up like that???? I told my husband and he said it must be an omen, for him to stay the heck away!!!!!! God must be warning him!!!!!

I'm not super religious, but I do believe in insight and everything is written down in the beginning. This definitely means something.

Good morning everyone!

I hope that all is well for MF today--we miss you when you're not here!

F&L-that's totally creepy about your 6/6/06 anniversary! But maybe it is an omen that is good for you--like you say, a warning to your H about what he did. Maybe this will help him to remember what he caused, and what he needs to change to keep making things better. It's better than a scarlet A branded on his forehead, anyway!

We had a nice evening last night. H just relaxed with me and the girls--sat down and ate dinner with us instead of inhaling something and then running out the door to "fix something" in the barn or meet his guy buddies. He just seemed content to talk with me about his day and play with the girls. It gave me such a great feeling. Maybe my letter helped him a bit. I kept just feeling like he was avoiding even looking me in the eye, and it does hurt, because it makes me wonder if he is really just unhappy being married to me, period. But then I wonder if he is just so ashamed he can't look me in the eye. That's why I told him to just stop feeling guilty about everything--it doesn't help either of us fix things. Anyway, maybe he feels released from that guilt. I hope so. I don't want that for him, no matter what happens for us. But I am feeling much more optimistic about things.

HF and S&C--I hope all is going well for you! We haven't heard from you both, but our thoughts are with you and we hope that you are doing well and moving forward.

Drex--do tell us how you and your beautiful wife and very intelligent children are doing today!

I'll check back later!

-C.

Hey all
Just checking in. I have been running around like crazy to go away this week... all 4 of my kids are in a wedding in Fl this weekend...H-O-T! I still have to go out and get a bunch of stuff UGH! I hate to pack.

I had a crappy weekend. Sun night we got asked to a party and it was turning out to be a guys night. I was exhauseted from a long day and H came up and said is it ok if I go and I said yes then he felt bad about leaving so he stayed home. Long story short he got text message from them teasing him for staying home. He said should I text them back that I am p*&^$% whipped? I said no just leave it alone. He got up in the am before me and when I got up I checked his phone for the heck of it and he had sent the message I said he shouldnt. Ok no big deal but I asked him if he did later and he LIED and said he didnt. He said I make him feel like I am his mother so he didnt want to get in trouble but I have said 10,000 times NO MORE LIES!!!

I feel so horrible. I feel like now I dont know when he is lying to me!!! Hes so stupid! Why would he lie about somehting so dumb? I really feel sometimes I dont even know him. Like has everything been a lie? Some things dont jive about the A and now I feel lkie I cant believ a word he has said to me? Maybe he even loved he how the he*& would I know?

I have been crazy about this all day. I have no friends that know about this. It was all I could do not to hug one of my old friends I saw today and start crying. I have no one to bounce this stuff off you know? I am so grateful for you all.

I have to go pack but I hope everyone is well. MF I hope everything is ok.

CSJ
I agree with everyones great advise to you. And I commend you on your letter. Its sweet he kept it. Shows he wants to absorb it.

Drex
Sounds like you are doing great!

F&L
Its hot here too. I am dying. Trying to pack and the kids want to go in the pool! I am pulling an all nighter for sure.

Talk with you all soon.
HF

Hoping,

Glad to hear from you. Thank goodness it's cooling down. Supposed to rain later today and Thursday.

Just want you to know that you are not alone......my husband does the same thing. He lies about little stupid stuff. Then when I catch the lie - I ask him why? The things he lies about are so dumb - he could have told the truth in the beginning. When my husband lies - he gets this dumb grin on his face - I can always tell.

I think some guys are just like this - it's their nature. I guess it's just easier for them to lie at first. This doesn't mean they also lie about much more serious things. Your husband probably sent the message anyway, just so he could look more manly (saying you didn't want him to go -that's why he stayed home). Guys aren't as honest with each other, like women are. They can't look sensitive or act like they care about other people's feelings in front of each other - would make them look less of a man. Women are different in this respect.

Just try and forget about the incident - it will only make you get upset. Did you see the date my D-Day is coming up on - 6/6/6? I keep thinking about that - if it means something - very creepy.

I too, only talk to you guys about stuff when it's troubling me. My husband thinks I'm being totally ridiculous still upset about his affair.

You think it's hot now - wait till you get to FLA., it's so humid down there - you can't breath as soon as you get off the plane. Hope you have fun though. Is the whole family going? Is this the first time on the plane for the kids? That should be exciting for them.

Oh my gosh all my kids have been flying since they were babies. My first two were 6 weeks and 9 weeks. The twins were 7 months old we are a traveling family but they slowed us down a bit!

Thanks for you rwords of encouragement. Sometimes I dont knwo if I am doing the right thing. I want to be with him but I am so horrified by his actions sometimes I think maybe its a mistake. I see all these signs in town Single? and I think about it you know? Would it be so bad? I love him so much but is there someone out there who would cherish me like csj said someone who wouldnt do this?

I dont know. Normally I wouldnt care about a stupid lie like that but he is on double secret probation and he knows it. You would think he would want to tell the truth! He wants to be this NEW man. Get rid of the guilt etc. Ugh! Iam so sad and scared that he is not who I think he is.

Thanks for letting me vent!
HF

Hey HF-

Sounds like you are in a bit of a whirlwind with the traveling! But I hope you enjoy the trip and the time together. Build some nice memories together, you know?

And don't sweat the small stuff. I know that at this point, no dishonesty seems trivial at all, believe me! But I think the text message is simply something guys do in their caveman club. My H told me many times of whiny little comments his friends would say to him about their wives. He thought it was so funny! And then I would ask, "so what did you say about me?" And he would smile and say, "honey, I don't say a thing except that I am lucky."

And I believed him--how sweet! But now, I am no longer naive. I am sure he joined right in and complained about me, too. "My wife nags me . . ." "My wife is always late . . ." Whatever. I seriously think it's just the way that they beat on their chests and feel masculine. Just like we get together and say, "Honestly, can you believe what she was wearing??????" Same thing, just a different language.

He should be totally honest with you. They all should. But total honestly will never happen. There will always be little half-truths and shades of gray. We ALL do this in varying degrees, really. For instance--I lie to my kids about there being a Santa Claus. The important thing is the MOTIVE. Talk to him about this--if his primary reason for lying is ultimately undermining your marriage, then he has crossed a boundary and he needs to recognize that.

Anyway--I hope you really enjoy your trip. I feel like the trip I took with my H really helped us to grow together. It wasn't a magic pill that fixed everything, but just the time together helped me to feel like I am in a safe place again.

And MF--I hope you will read this tomorrow, because I have already checked off my assignment for this week! On my lunch break I stopped off at our local mom & pop shop "Dirty Joe's" and picked up my own copy of "The Complete Idiot's Guide to the Kama Sutra." I have only glanced at it, since I am at work. But I can report so far that it contains, ahem, quite a bit of detailed information. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I will provide my reader's review later--for everyone's benefit! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Take care everyone!

-C.

CSj
I am cracking up about the karma sutra book. Thats great. I cant wait to hear the review!

Thanks to you and F&L for calmingme down. I am not upset ato all about the text itself just the deceit. He has no wiggle room here for lies and I know I am probably being unreasonable its just that I am afraid it wont stop with the white ones and that when I ask him a question about the A I am getting the sugar coated version. Maybe thats the only one I need. who knows?

Our MC is big on just focusing on the now but I am stuck figuring out the past and cant get by it.

I just told my H he was lucky he was unreachable today till I got on MB b/c he was in trouuuuuble! So glad I found you all.
HF

HF-

Hang in there! I know it's hard not to get "stuck in the past." But honestly, what do they expect????? My H's affair has been over for almost 8 months now--and I'm sure that seems like a lifetime to him. But it is not to me. Flaws that I thought were small things before make me furious. He does things that I think are very selfish--things that probably helped him to justify his A, and they linger on. It is hard to look at my marriage and feel so . . . disappointed. I want my old marriage back. Sigh.

But I have hope, too--and I think you do also. At least we understand what the problems are, and we can work to fix them! And there really are a lot of success stories out there! Yet I know other people who are in really miserable marriages. Their spouses didn't cheat on them, but they are not happy. And they really can't point to what's wrong, either. I think I would rather deal with my current set of problems.

One day at a time . . .

And just really enjoy your trip!

-C.

CSJ
Yes I told H that this weekend I am just so dissapointed he said he was too in himself which made me a little hopeful. My biggest fear is that I dont know him. I never expected it and was so blind sided I just cant believe he is the same person.

My Hs affair has been over for 4 years he is completely over it and barely remembers it which is good in so many ways but bad because I dont remember how he was acting and I cant give myself the comfort in knowing I knew something was wrong I just dont remember. I do remember he planned a beautiful night for our 10th anniversary during the A. Totally surprised me with a limo to the hotel where we got married set up over night sitters roses in the room when we arrived. How he could do that and sleep with her a month later I will never understand...big sigh...so sad sometimes...

Hope everyone has a good weekend
HF

F&L -- This can be disarmed and turned into a joke. "Honey, guess who came to visit today? The laundry fairy stopped by. We had tea and crumpets while she enchanted the washer and dryer. We had a really good conversation regarding the state of affairs of your clothing in particular. Those darned socks are always getting into trouble. And it seems your underwear has started going to church. They've gotten rather holy."

Eventually, he's going to realize that the house simply doesn't clean itself. Dinner doesn't cook itself, groceries don't buy themselves and put themselves away. He knows all these things, he's just being "man". Here's what my gorgeous wife and I did to make sure there was none of that going on where she didn't think I wasn't doing anything.

Once a week, we sit down and make 3 lists. List "A" is the menu for the week. We take turns picking, or get the kids input, but we make a menu. List "B" is usually left up to me because it is the grocery list, but if you're taking turns cooking or cooking together, then do the list together too. List "C" is the to do list for the week. If he's at work and domestic support is high on his ENs list, he's going to eat this up.

You start the list by writing down all the things you do in a week to run the house. Laundry, ironing, go to cleaners, go to grocery store, meet with this teacher, go to that meeting, make the beds... Once you've put down everything you think of that you do (and make sure you do them lest he say something like, "You put paint the house on the list? You don't paint the house every day!") then get him to tell you what else he thinks is reasonable for you to accomplish during that week. Tell him weekends are off limits because that's your time with him. As you do these things, check them off and leave the list laying around where he'll find it. Give that a couple of weeks and see if it doesn't help with the, "I don't see you sweep the floor, therefore, you must not have done it" syndrome.


You're kidding right? You must live up north. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


It's not too much to ask at all. Have you asked for it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Us guys, we're not mind readers. And we're forgetful. If words of affirmation aren't his primary love language, he may not think of it as being yours. Even if you've done so already, get his undivided attention and very clearly state how much you would appreciate those kind of affirming words from him and how it would make you feel loved.

CSJ --
Well, it's been actually very good. Very busy, but very good. My kiddos are complaining that they're soooooo bored. It's summer break now, and there's NOTHING to do. Nevermind the plethera of kids that live in the neighborhood that they could play with, the bikes they could ride, the 42 million video games they have, the books they haven't read. If I'm not spending money, it can't possibly be fun, right? LOL Of course, all the activity we had over the weekend was forgotten as soon as they went to sleep.

DD10 will be DD11 this month. She's "developing" now. I get to laugh now because it's my darling wife's turn for the questions and the "shopping". DD10 folded a load of laundry for me yesterday while I was out because it had her new "things" in it and she didn't want me to see. LOL I asked her how it made her feel to fold my underwear. Suddenly, she wasn't so opposed to me folding her "things". LOL

I don't know if I had mentioned it on this thread or not, but there was a thread earlier about wedding rings and the wearing of them and why. Since d-day, my sweet wife had taken hers off. I never did. But I put hers on a chain and wore them around my neck. Well, Tuesday, my beautiful wife was messing with the clasp on the chain while I was wearing it, then asked me if she could have her ring back. Without getting all sappy here, I told her of course she could have it back. Then she thanked me for keeping it close to my heart by wearing it on that chain. We spent a lot of quiet time talking on Tuesday.

Tuesday night I made orange glazed chicken salad over 4 kinds of baby lettuce with freshly grated parmesian, fresh garden veggies and an orange vinegrette. The tiny little mandarin oranges around the outside of the plates was a neat touch for the kids too.

Wednesday, we had MC. It was a good session. The homework assignments are getting harder!!! It's like being back in school! LOL

HF --
I'll agree that having us here as a sounding board is nice. My suggestion for you is this. You have a best friend, right? My best friend is my wife. I confide everything in her. Some of her behaviors are also the cause of a great deal of my pain, so, you've got to have a back up friend. VERY IMPORTANT. It's got to be someone the same sex as you. Sometimes, you just gotta cry and get it all out, you know. As grown adults, we're not allowed to have little fits and temper tantrums, so you have to have this friend that isn't going to judge you when you do.

Having a confidant will not fix everything, but it will certainly help in those really tough times. If you start by telling your friend that you need someone to just listen and hand you tissues and not judge or try to fix, that takes them off the hook and they don't feel responsible when you unload. Friends, by nature, want to take care of each other. Idealy, you want to get to a place where your spouse is the person you want to just listen and hand you tissues. I get the feeling that you don't want to give your spouse that trust right now and by the way your spouse is acting, perhaps your spouse doesn't want it right now either.

Having a real person to vent to is so incredibly satisfying sometimes. So is this board. We can all give you (((HF))) here. We love being a support net for you. You can't be connected to us 24/7 though. You've going to make it. There's your mantra. Look at yourself in the mirror in the morning and say that a few times.

Best wishes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Drex,

I've already told my husband about the "Magical Fairy" that does everything - he just said "Very funny wife" and that was it. My husband is a different Cave guy than you!

I've done the list thing many years ago, several times already - he looks at it real quick and tosses it aside - says, so, "What do you want a medal"? My husband is a very macho attitude guy; housework is woman's work, not his. This was always so, even when I worked full time and shuffled the kids back and forth to school and daycare. His father is the exact same way - "the apple doesn't fall too far from the tree". I've learned to live with this - I know many women wouldn't, but I love this macho man. I may be a "doormat" many times, but I realize I choose this. It gets very annoying sometimes though.

My husband DOES NOT COOK - if I get sick, or I'm too tired for some reason - his idea of dinner is, "Girls, make yourself something to eat, mommy is sick today". When I used to work full time and he was on vacation that week, he would wait till I got home - waited for me to cook dinner. He'll open up his gourmet dinner - a can of Progresso Soup - or if we have hot dogs - that's his specialty - hot dogs boiled in water. He'd never think of cooking something on the grill in the summer. If he ever fries anything - he'll clean his dish - but leaves me the dirty frying pan - says he's leaving it to soak.

I'll tell you a funny story....Several years ago, my husband decided to vacuum the play room, because as he said it was a mess. Not only didn't he see my daughter's Barbie doll on the floor, but he vacuumed her hair and got it stuck in the vacuum. He finally got it out - then he proceeded to vacuum and caught the topper(a table cloth) on top of the table. Needless to say the topper had black grease marks all over it. He tried, but my daughter was very upset when I came home, because Barbie now had hair only on one side!

Believe me Drex, there are more guys like my husband, than like you. Not many men would do what you do. Even if I went to work again full time and my husband would stay home as a "house husband", he would never do all the things you do. He’s still expecting me to do everything - just the way he is.

Another story......When I broke my foot 3 yrs. ago - the first day I came home with a crutch - that night he made soup to eat for the kids - ok. I went to bed that night, had to crawl up the stairs. The next morning, he went to work - I crawled down the stairs. The girls fed themselves - they are good.

During the day - I couldn't make myself anything because I had the crutches - I kept dropping my cup of coffee, because I couldn't carry the cup and use crutches at the same time. When my husband came home that night, he sat down on the couch - I said I can't cook - he said, "Make the girls cook - they're old enough now".

Three days went by - the laundry was piling up. He told me to let it go till I felt better. Mind you, I had the foot in a cast for 8 weeks. What I had to finally do was sit on my butt and drag the laundry basket up stairs, step by step and hop around the house, from counter to counter to cook and clean dishes.

So far as asking him to give me compliments, a boy you’re a great wife, boy you're attractive - I've asked him this so many times - I couldn't even tell you. When I ask him this - he always just says, "You know you're a good wife - why do you want me tell you all the time - you know I'm not good at expressing my feelings - why are you so insecure?"

So you see, Drex......I've put up with this for a long time....yet, he was the one who cheated. Many people told me over the years that I spoiled him - I do too much for him - I should have made him do stuff from the beginning. I guess I should have. But, I always thought if you treat your husband like a "King" he would treat you like a "Queen" - guess it doesn't work that way. The better I treated him - the more he expected and the worse he treated me. Sad but true.

And yes, 85 is hot – especially when it’s so humid. You think we’re not used to the hot weather cause we’re from up north – how’d you like to be in our cold weather – 0-10 degrees and a foot of snow – winds howling at 30 miles an hr. I bet that changes your mind a bit.

I'm going to hire you as our cook - Orange glazed chicken over lettuce - mmmmmm, that sounds very good.

Hope all is ok with all of you ladies.

Afternoon everyone!

It sounds like everyone is doing pretty well, such good news!

Drex-I love the story about your wife's ring. That is too sweet. My H actually started wearing his after DDay. He had not worn it at all since we were married, because he was never able to get it to fit (he has caveman hands <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> with big knuckles--so that to get it big enough to fit over the middle of his finger, it is way too big for the bottom of his finger). So in all these years he just didn't wear it. But then we were eating Thanksgiving dinner at his mom's house, and I was just a zombie feeling like I wanted to die, when I noticed that he was wearing his ring. That was the first sign to me that he was truly sincere in wanting to make things work. Of course, he stopped wearing it again: "It really is so uncomfortable, honey!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

F&L--I know what you mean about not getting the kudos from hubby. Mine is not much for handing out compliments, either. He loves that joke about they guy who tells his wife, "I told you when we got married that I love you, and if that ever changes, I'll let you know." Those are his words to live by. Once in a while he'll tell me dinner was good.

H was very pleased with our new book. I just causually told him I picked up a new book for us both to read. He looked skeptical, "what book???" I handed it to him and he got a naughty little look on his face.

I haven't read much so far, but I will say this much--it works great! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I'll check back later, all!

-C.

Hi,

Drex....wearing the wedding band is a good sign - I forgot to mention that to you.

CSJ......my husband gained 50 lbs. over the 21 yrs. that I've been with him - his fingers also got larger during these years. He started complaining many years ago that the ring was getting small - so I immediately took him to the jeweler to have it made larger. He was trying to give me the baloney also, that he thought maybe he shouldn't wear it - lots of guys don't. BALONEY ON THAT!!!!

His fingers again are getting larger - maybe time to have it resized again. We're going to be married 20 yrs. this January - he promised, because of all the crap I went thru, that he would buy me a diamond engagement and wedding band. Maybe at that time he could get a new, larger one too. On this anniversary, the OW filed harassment charges against him - nice anniversary present, huh???

We are going to renew our vows.

My husband always tells me when I need a compliment, "I'm here aren't I? If I didn't love you I wouldn't be sitting in the house. I go to work everyday - don't I? What else do you want? Those guys that constantly buy flowers and do things for their wives, do it because they are doing something sneaky - the're probably cheating on them."

He too, once in a while says dinner was good - well usually, he just says he's full - that's about it.

Drex...I forgot, when I ask my husband what he wants for dinner...all he says is FOOD!!!! He never gives me any suggestions for dinner - he could care less - as long as it fills his stomach and tastes good.

F&L -- First, I just want to say that I am boggled that any of you put up with that. I mean, cleaning, cooking, playing taxi for the kids... And not a thank you. He must be doing an aweful lot to make you feel loved. I mean, you're sticking around. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I'm going to play devils advocate for a minute so don't flog me. LOL

Obviously words of affirmation and praise are big ENs for you. You wrote a rather lengthy post about it. If he were to say to you that dinner was great and the house looked good, you'd probably feel loved, right? This is your big love language. You want to feel recognition. It's big for me too so I know where you're coming from.

I don't know that your husband is a different cave guy than I am. I think he's just still fascinated by fire is all. What is his love language? Domestic support? Family committment? What is it and are YOU speaking that language to him? Learning a second language is hard. Learning a second language when you don't know what the language is is impossible. (I'm pulling this out of a Gary Chapman book. It's a good read, called 5 love languages and is almost hand in hand with Dr. Harley's stuff.)

I can see this as one of two things. One, your husband is speaking the love language that he knows. The one that is important to him. Like Dr. Harley says, you get caught up doing the things for your spouse that would make you feel good... Or Two, he's not trying to speak your language at all because you're not speaking his. Have you two done an ENQ recently? I'm sure you realize that ENs change like every 10 minutes during the rough times. LOL Ok, so that's hyperbole, but still.

My awesome wife and I have decided that doing the ENQ once every couple of months is a good idea for us right now. It makes sure we're staying on track of where we're supposed to be AND it shows progress, or lack of progress. Just don't look at the previous ENQ until you've finished the new one. Make sense?

But I digress. It also sounds like one of your ENs is Domestic support. "He has never done a load of laundry, leaves me the frying pan etc." What is his idea of domestic support? Does he leave his clothes lying around for you to pick up or does he put them in the hamper? Does he cut the lawn or do you do that or is someone paid to do it? Do you have gutters? Who cleans them? Does he leave his dish on the table or does he put it in the sink?

Sometimes, we get stuck focusing on the one thing we're not getting and we forget about the things we are getting. I'll be the first to raise my hand and admit that I've done that. Food for thought. Gotta run. I'll be back tomorrow.

Best wishes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You know, F&L, I think Drex has a point here. I am all for each partner being "cherished" like I said in my previous post. I like to do special things for my H--it makes me feel good to do something for him that I know he will enjoy, and I am sure that you feel the same way. I am willing to bet that your H does feel cherished all of the time. He has a wife who treats him like a queen!!!!

But this should be a two-way street. You should feel special, too. He should be able to recognize, caveman or not, that acknowledging what you do for him makes you feel special. I am wondering if he has read SAA???? Maybe it would register a bit if the idea came from an "expert."

Another thing I have learned since coming here is that if you give and give and give, your partner may start to feel a sense of entitlement. Instead of feeling that "my beautiful wife does all these things for me because she loves me, and I love her" the "entitled" spouse will feel that "my wife SHOULD do these things for me, because that is what I require."

Now, that being said, I do recognize there are limitations here. Do not forget that I am married to a caveman too! My H is not a big one for throwing out complements, as I have said before. This is one thing I want him to work on for me. I do not expect him to become perfect in this area, but I do expect him to make an effort. Just like I am making an effort for him. And he is doing a bit better. He can be taught! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And really, shouldn't your husband at least throw you a bone here!

Anyway, I'll check back tomorrow!
-C.

Hi All,

First thing....I don't know how religious any of you are....but MamaFish is going thru some difficult times right now....if you could send her some prayers and good wishes.....

Drex and CSJ....I totally agree with both of you.

Drex......my husband will not read or take time out to fill out any EN questionnaire...he thinks the stuff on here is a bunch of baloney. He thinks everything is fine, affair is finished, done - let's move on - why bring up stuff like that. To him I'm badgering him, nagging him when I ask him things like that. He will not start doing stuff that reminds him of his affair - he wants to make believe it didn't happen - he thinks nothing is wrong. That's why he stopped going to the MC - he thought he was wasting his time and money.

I told you, I've asked him time and time again - I'd like some compliments, help around the house, etc. Not just now, that I'm home, but when I worked full time. I had the same load of work, plus a full time job.

My husband likes to be catered to and yes requires it - it's just the way it is. He has told me if I don't like it - I can find someone else who caters to me - he is just not like that - he is not going to change for any one. Believe it or not - the OW told him I treat him bad, that I nag him to help me - she would never talk to him like I do - she would treat him like a "real man". I really think this stuck in his head. I don't know how much more I can do for him.

My husband thinks he goes to work - he goes early and comes home after 6:00. He thinks that should be it. He says he works hard - he doesn't do physical work - it's in an office - he expects to sit down when he comes home. He does have a side business that he works on the computer every once in a while, so he does some work at night sometimes.

Yes, my husband does mow the lawn once a week - we have almost an acre - it takes me 2 days to do it, if I do it. But sometimes, he's very reluctant to do it. But even after the mowing, there's a lot of other stuff to do in the yard, pruning, weeds, planting, watering - he doesn't care about this. I've told him if he's too tired, let's get someone to do it - he won't hear of it. Maybe once a year he does the gutters. He does put his clothes in the hamper - its right in the closest. But, he has a habit of folding his dirty clothes and putting it on the top shelf. He has piles of dirty clothes on the top shelf - why????

You know, it's not that I mind so much doing all the work that I do - it's that I never get any recognition - no thank you's - that's why I get upset. I realize that he works hard, that's why I do all the stuff - I'm trying to make his life comfortable. I laid down the 3 tons of rocks and nothing. I told him, do you want to see what I did with the rocks - on the day I was finished - he said not now. So finally, a day or two later I said come outside and see what I did - he came outside and said nice. You know, like, no big deal.

So many people have told him what a hard working, wonderful, beautiful wife he has. The guys he used to work with told him many times how lucky he was. Yeah, and he was boinking some ugly bit—in the office! He even asked one single friend in his office, when the guy was getting married – he told my husband – when he was getting a divorce from me – I’m looking for a woman like your wife – you’re a lucky guy. I always told my husband I get these compliments from everyone else, but not the man I love! That’s the only compliment that I really want!

Sometimes, I just feel like going on strike - but that would hurt my girls. If I did, then I'd just have a bigger mess to clean up. God forbid if I ask him to do something - his fist response is "Don't tell me what to do - I'll do it when I want". He has this thing, that I can't ask him to do anything - and I don't mean that I yell at him and tell him DO THAT! I say something like, "You know the grass is getting long, do you think you can mow it weekend?"

Sometimes, he does the dishes (after he had the affair) - but very rarely before - hdmestic support - forget it, in this house. A lot of his values were handed down from his father. His father is worse. He doesn't do a darn thing - my M-I-L waits on him hand-and-foot - he expects that. I won't go into that. I told you when my F-I-L found out about my husband's affair - he told my husband if I didn't like it - I can leave! It's a man's nature to cheat!!!!

Our MC told my husband he has a lot of deep rooted values and told me he has to want to change - if he doesn't, I have to live with it or leave. I choose to stay. He's been this way for over 20 yrs., but as the years go by - he gets worse. He was ok for a while after D-Day, but that stopped in a couple of months. Now, in his mind, he thinks everything is back to normal - so he should go back to normal. It seems, the more I do for him, the more he expects.

I told you when my husband and I were posting on here months ago - the people on MB told me to leave him, because of the way he used to post on here. No one agreed with his posts. He had so many justifications for his affair and his values about home life, etc. So, after getting bashed so many times - he went off saying the people on here weren't professionals and he wasn't going to take any advice from them. The people on here are just a bunch of whining, complaining people and feeling sorry for themselves - like me.

F&L -- I really don't envy your situation. I'm very sorry that you're putting up with such nonsense. It amazes me how women will stay in abusive relationships because they "love" their husbands. You are a bright and smart woman. I fail to understand why you choose to remain in a situation that is not getting any better.

Obviously, the decision to stay or leave your husband is yours. If you decide that you can put up with the crap sandwiches he serves you, well, you've got tougher skin than I do. My biggest concern is that he's teaching your girls, indirectly, that this is how women are supposed to be treated. Not only is he teaching them, but you are too. While your words may say it's not ok for him to be like that, your actions say otherwise.

I'm not knocking you at all. Everyone's life is unique and I don't know all the ins and outs of yours. When he says, "If you don't like it, go find someone else..." that's a dare. He's taunting you to do it because he knows you won't. Kind of like the school yard bully. He'll pick on someone because he knows they won't fight back.

I haven't read all of your thread regarding your affair and discovery so I don't know your reaction and your response to him. There's a lot of history that I would have to read up on. 7 years ago, when I found out about my wifes second affair (which, in new light, turned out to be her 5th or 6th) we played the silly game of sweep it under the rug and pretend it didn't happen. We did that after my ONS and her confession of her first affair too.

Our responses to each others betrayals weren't strong enough to provoke a change in behavior. I'm scared that your response wasn't strong enough. I'm scared that you're internalizing a lot of anger and resentment toward him and that one day you're just going to explode. I'm scared that you might actually be enabling his behavior by not responding strongly enough.

I know I've made some tough statements. Some of those statements would more than upset a lot of people. I want you to know that I'm just expressing my opinion and I'm not trying to preach. I empathize with you and when I read about some of the things he does, I feel that pain too because I've experienced it.

My father was a physically abusive man to his children. He has anger issues that stem from God knows what. It's so bad that last year, he punched my sister in the jaw a week before her wedding. There's more to that complicated story, but the point I'm getting at is I'm going through a lot of IC to "unroot" the values that were ingrained into me. I've never been abusive to my kids or my wife. Fighting absolutely abhores me. When you experience trauma as a child, you learn to behave one of two ways. You learn that it's ok to behave that way or you learn to be so far on the opposite extreme of that behavior that it could be OCD. Quick example...

When I was a kid, everything in my house was blue. The walls, the carpet, the curtains, the plates, the silverware, the linens, the birds, the furniture, even the cars! Up until a year ago, I hated blue. Couldn't stand it. My eyes were blue and I couldn't look in the mirror. I wanted colored contacts. I could have just as easily loved blue. Extreme exposure to a stimulus causes extreme reactions.

Whatever you decide to do, I'll be supportive, even if I don't understand. I always shoot straight and hardly ever candy coat anything so count on my to call you on things sometimes.

MF -- Lean to the left in your chair, now lean to the right. Now, lean forward, and finally lean back and relax. Great, I just wanted you to be moved by something I said. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Without knowing a thing about what you're going through, I will say this. Christ's love is ever present in you. Through faith, you will endure and emerge triumphant in the face of your foe. Remember this one? "Ye are the light of the world." You're carrying Christ's light! He has loved you enough to let you be an example to the rest of the world. From what I've seen here, you're doing a fine job. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I will pray for you and your family. Find comfort in God's arms. "Ask and ye shall receive..." You will be ok.

I gotta run folks. Have a great day! (snort) I say I gotta run and in actuality I just ran a 5k this morning with my wife.

Best wishes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Drex.....thanks for listening. I chose to stay in this marriage because I love my husband. As long as he loves me, and is faithful, that's all that I ask for, but he can throw some appreciation once in a while also. I don't think that's too much to ask.