I personally don't want to continue the thread jack on Brooke's thread. I may be told i'm trying to control people, but i'm not. Anyone is free to post here or there.

but here is what i want to say....

i signed up in Dec 2003. I did not confess until March 2004.

For a long time, as i saw others come here and confess so much quicker i would beat myself up as to why i took so long.

right now i'm thinking.... that time spent, i started to learn a lot, i had a chance to get my head together, my DH had a chance to see in my actions of those four months that something was changing. it was all actually a good thing.

i know others will say everyday you don't confess is another day of betrayal, and that is fine for you to state and re-state a million times if that makes you feel better.

i just wanted to state my experience.

in retrospective, i'm finally able to say, "you did good FL" obviously never being unfaithful is the best thing, but I did good picking myself up out of the mud and turning first myself around and then my marriage.

And here is what I take from that...The focus remained on YOU...Nevermind that he led a life that was a lie for another four months...Nevermind that the continued deceit compounded the betrayal...What was more important was that YOU "had a chance to get your head together"...

We don't see things the same way at all FLTH...

Mrs. W

I think you did fine.

-ol' 2long

I wonder if he is glad you lied to him for 4 more months? As a betrayed spouse myself, I would not find that acceptable. I seriously doubt it was in your husbands best interest to be deceived for 4 more months.

Maybe it benefited YOU, Flth, but it is not all about you. What was best for your H? Does he feel like it was in his best interest to be lied to for 4 more months?

mrs. w, you are right, we don't see things the same.

thanks 2long. i realize my husbands response when i confessed is very much about who he is at his core. and i must say, i've thought about that a ton too. i am blessed he has the qualities he has.

but i do see how helpful it was to him that i had learned all i had learned before confessing.

Hm...

This isn't like one of those courses in college where, if you 2rn in the assignment one day late you lose a letter grade, if you 2rn it in 2 days late, 2 letter grades.

This is life. None of us makes it out alive. Some of us take longer than others 2 pull our heads out of our wayward AND/OR betrayed nether regions...

If it takes 4 months, should the puller be shot or something?

How long is it supposed 2 take a WS 2 come clean? 4.23498 times 10 2 the zero power seconds? Weeks? Years? (I know that answer will be perceived as "always wrong").

Wouldn't it be better if nobody ever cheated or ignored their spouse's most important ENs? Should they receive a medal if they don't? And at what time relative 2 the non-betrayal?

In the end, what's important?

-ol' 2long

that my DH and I are recovering <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Nor do I see any benefit from delaying since delaying the truth is to delay RECOVERY. It also gives the WS more time to conduct wrongdoing under the cover of darkness, compounding the crime.

For what it's worth, I see anyone who confesses has an advantage, perhaps only in time, in speed and depth of recovery. I think it shows respect and remorse.
My Wife didn't confess, rather had the information dragged out of her, which is a big part of why I still have some issues to work out. I believe that the act of confessing is so much more significant than the method used. Does that make any sense?

BTW -Mrs. W - you've got mail...

Melody - I hope I didn't p*ss you off , but in my opinion the thread was a little out of control. Also, I found your comment to me a bit condescending. I still think you're one of the best! (not sarcasm...)

i realize this may not matter to you but for the record, i was not being an "active" WS during those 4 months ML in the sense that i was in contact with anyone. if that is what you mean by "wrongdoing"

i'm first to agree, i was not yet the model wife, but one cannot just wake up one day and be a model wife, that takes time and action.

put on your own oxygen mask before helping the person next to you. that was the benefit of delaying.

Infidelity isn't a crime in the US. Neither is lying 2 your spouse.

If they were crimes, the BS' recourse would be simple.

But the results would always be bitter defeat for everyone.

-ol' 2long

See, here is how I see it. If someone is harming me behind my back, I want to know NOW. NOT at your pleasure. I don't want to know LATER when the spirit moves you. NOW.

My BEST INTEREST, because I am the victim, should supercede your mood du jour. On PRINCIPLE, it is the best interest of the VICTIM that should drive the timing, IMO.

And the sooner the victim knows he is being harmed behind his back, the sooner he can PROTECT himself.

So my question would be, WHAT IS IN THE VICTIM'S BEST INTEREST? That should be the MAIN FOCUS, IMO. Focusing on SELF is the wrong focus.

Easy...

Inform immediately.



But what if that isn't how it goes?

-ol' 2long

I would also include lying as wrongdoing. And I think withholding the truth about one's life is wrongdoing. But it does give the WS the opportunity to commit more crimes if they are not exposed.


right, and action means telling the truth. That is the first step. That is how one becomes a better person. Feelings follow ACTION, not the other way around.

the best interest of my DH was occuring during those 4 months. his wife was healing to a point of being able to give to him a very meaningful gift. a confession. a confession that included a deeper understanding of all the damage she did because of the work she did during those 4 months. and a wife that could then be so 100% able to be what he needed.

I didn't mean crimes in the strict legal sense, but you already knew that. Adultery is worse than most legal crimes, but that is neither here nor there.

FLTH,

During that 4 month wait, you risked your BH discovering on his own this horrible information. And by not telling, a WS may often need to continue to lie their way out of being discovered when the BS puts a few puzzle pieces together. Lying continues the wayward attitude, even if the affair is over.

It is not better to wait. I'm glad your marriage worked out, but every single day of those 4 months, you were risking your husband finding out on his own.

And I do agree with Mrs. W. From what you've said, the focus remained on you. You can justify it any way you want to make it sound like it benefited him. But it just looks like manipulation to me. You wanted him to see your actions changing before you confessed, so that maybe he might be less likely to leave.

my "feelings" were not all that changed during those 4 months ML.

Being a person of integrity.

I really find this discussion interesting. I think that we're kind of debating what would be best in an ideal situation vs. what works in reality. Mel- I agree wholeheartedly that not delaying confession is the best course, if an affair is taking place. If we take it one step further, ideally a Potential WS should (ideally) confess feelings developing for an OP and establish NC prior to an affair.
I guess that there really is no ideal timeline for a confession other than to say that it should be immediate once "X" takes place. "X" could be something different for everyone....
What the h*ll did I just say?!?...

no SMB, it was not a calculated wait. i was not thinking "if i wait he will see i've already started to change. better for me!!!"

i was honestly learning, i was honestly growing.

i'm not saying i recommend waiting 4 months to anyone, but i will absolutely not recommend rushing to confess.

I would rather think that the TRUTH would be the "meaningful gift." I would not give a RATS [censored] about your "healing." Heck, you are the PERP. I would care about the "healing" of the wounded victim bleeding on the floor.

I don't see HOW it was in your husbands best interest to be lied to for 4 more months. I would not see it that way at all and i wonder how your H feels about that?

But do you see the risk you took by waiting?

Do you really understand how much more painful it is to find out rather than be confessed to?

Everyday of those 4 months, your BH could have put the pieces together and you'd have a whole different perspective on your waiting.

i know my DH is glad we are still married. he has told me that many times since i confessed all those years ago.

i know my DH has also said, he would not have been able to deal with knowing while the A was occuring, the marriage would not have survived.

so, if you believe his two stmts, then you can see that the way things unfolded for us was to his benefit too.

yes SMB, i do see that risk. which is why i would not advocate 4 months.

do you see the benefit of getting your self a bit picked up before confessing?

But that is not his problem, this is all stuff ABOUT YOU. Nothing about what was in HIS best interest. What was in his best interest was to be told the TRUTH about his own life so he could protect himself from you.

You were not qualified to to discern his best interest, FLTH.


But you have no rational to recommend a DELAY. Justice delayed is justice DENIED. Every day that the BS is not told is another LIE, another INDIGNITY, another blatant act of DISRESPECT piled onto the victim.

It seems like your only interest is yourself, FLTH, and not your H.

This is my first post. I wish my husband had taken some time to withdraw and collect his thoughts before telling me. I think then he wouldn't have said so many hurtful things that I still can't forget. We have been in recovery for almost a year now and he has been a wonderful husband during that time. But I still can't forget the things he said in the first few weeks when he was confused about what he wanted. I wish I had been lied to just a little bit longer if it would have meant I didn't have to hear his messed up thoughts.

I don't find it strange that multi time FWS, a man that would tolerate his wife keeping a picture of the OM in their home and a man that has lived for 12 years without having SF with his wife would be okay with delaying exposure.

To me this speaks to the ability to stand up for what is right. I think people that would do the above things are willing to accept and tolerate a level of things that most people would find objectionable. I mean if you can tolerate certain things for years in your own life, what could possibly move you to take a stand against an injustice done to others? Most people would think that the truth delayed is an injustice....that lying is a horrible act and that it should cease immediately. It IS a bullet to the brain...despite what another poster here might have you believe. Infidelity is that bad.

SMB...you hit the nail on the head about what is important at the end of the day.

Waywards are often victims of THEMSELVES and of the OP. What about the children that are victims? Is it better to immediately confess and have BOTH mom and dad in an unstable mental state or is it better for at least one of them to be able to act calmly and rationally - even if it takes a little time to get there?

I have seen many times here that a person can only control themselves - so if that person believes it is wiser to gain knowledge and make themselves a better spouse - then confess, why is that so horrible?

When the confession is done with TRUE remorse and the confessor has ALREADY taken action to prove themselves, why is that not acceptable?

I would prefer that if my H was going to confess, that he wait until he is prepared to FULLY care for me and the deep hurt it will cause. I believe that WOULD be putting me first. If both parties are wounded, confused, and uneducated on the subject, what will be gained?

Fox

Victoria. THANK YOU FOR SHARING THAT!!!! it means a lot to me personally. like i said, i have long beat myself up about how long it took me. thanks again.

a married couple becomes one ML. there is no way to really say "this" is about me, "that" is about him.

but that does not tell me if he is happy that you lied to him for 4 more months. Have you asked him that EXACT question?

Even so, as a BS, I would have resented any delay and I suspect most betrayed spouses WOULD. I don't give a CRAP about my h's personal mood du jour, I only care that I am told the truth when I am being harmed behind my back.

And lastly, a WS is the LAST PERSON qualified to determine what is in the BS's best interest. So, the only right thing to do is tell them as soon as possible so they can PROTECT themselves from the WS.

medc, what a piece of... ...work!

I can't even tell how much of that is supposed 2 apply 2 me. Not that I care. I won't concern myself with angry, small minds.

Infidelity IS that bad. Given time, though, it's just a lesson learned.

-ol' 2long

NOTHING changes the assault to "just a lesson learned."

i don't know what you are talking about here, you are combining me with other people. yes i am a multi time FWS as my own signature says, you don't need to point that out, (unless of course it gives you pleasure.)

ok, so i see what you are doing... you are combining me at least in part with 2long.

i don't know who the 12yrs with no SF is.

When one is only thinking of HER own selfish interests and lying to her spouse, they are not "one." When one victimizes her spouse and ignores his best interest they are not "one."

ML, you can only state your opinion/desire. guessing what "most" others would say is ummm, what's the word you like to use?? arrogant.

FLTH..what I am "doing" is just pointing out that some people are willing to tolerate a lot more of an assault than others...this is evidenced by things that have gone on in their own lives.

Incorrect.

Time and healing do.

during those 4 months i was NOT thinking only of myself anymore. that's the point, i was turning my life around which greatly impacted, for the better, my DH.

That's an opinion that we will not share. Rape victims will always carry the scar of the rape...no matter what healing they have done. It is more than a lesson learned. A 'lesson learned" is a good thing 2LONG...so, when does infidelity become a good thing?

That doesn't make any sense at all. The news of adultery will ALWAYS be "hurtful." How in the world could the passage of weeks make such devastating news less "hurtful?" Adultery is as painful as the death of a child or a RAPE, so how could it ever be not "hurtful?" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

How odd that you should register JUST TODAY in order proclaim that you "wish you would have been lied to" some more! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Fox, thank you for your post too. i almost didn't see it, posts are being added so fast!!!

it is taking me so long to forgive myself and i still have more to do, but this has actually helped me very much today. i so very much hate all the hurt i caused.

so posts like yours and victoria have helped me today get a little farther down that path.

so again i say... thanks.

medc:

Infidelity never becomes a good thing. The lesson, once learned, is the good thing.

"I wouldn't take a million dollars for what I've learned, but I wouldn't give you a dime to repeat the experience." paraphrased from Dr. Phil.

-ol' 2long

Well silly, arrogant me for asserting that most folks don't DESIRE to be lied to! MY BAD! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Beam me up, Scotty! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

What is that sound <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I hear??

I think instead of debating about why its NOT GOOD TO LIE to folks,[who woulda ever thunk??] I will make better use of my time and go clean out the lint in my belly button. Beam me up, Scotty! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

we are discussing the trade off here ML.

fast vrs slower.

not just lied to or not lied to.

you are trying to change what is being discussed.

not that i'm trying to stop you from letting Scotty beam you out of here.

What's next?
We start debating what "is" means?
None of us should presume to know what is absolutely right for anyone other than ourselves.
We are all bound by an incredibly painful debilitating life experience, and must all do what we feel is in our (families) best interest.
I feel a bit John Cleesian when I say "This discussion has become quite silly".
Clearly not having an F-ing affair is the best course for everyone. Debating which phase of the moon to reveal that action in is somewhat arbitrary.
Can we all agree at least that in general it's better to confess rather than be found out?
Better still is to honor our vows to the one we chose.

2L - sorry to hear about your recent turn of events, buddy. I personally find it despicable that someone would kick anyone when they're down. I'd like to give you a "virtual" hand up...

anyway, i'm out of here for now folks. time to go home and be with my family. bbl

FL,

In those four months, can you HONESTLY say that you no longer were trolling for men on the internet.

If I remember correctly, you posted once about falling off the wagon so to speak.

Or, was this AFTER you told him?

Editing...confession while still engaging in the activity is not medal bound to me.

committed

>DING!!<

RIGHT ANSWER!

New question: Is there any specific timeline or method by which someone accomplishes that worthy goal?

'Nother one: Is infidelity 2 severe 2 ever allow a wayward the title of "good person", if they recover "their own way?"

-ol' 2long

You absolutely have some wrong info here MEDC. Get your insults right before you toss them out.

After seeing that post, I just think I'll start using ignore.

How sad, and yes that is my opinion.

Love in Christ,
Miss M

The title needs to be changed to:

Is lying about adultery acceptable under the guise of "personal growth?"

or

The FOGHORN EXPRESS!

jes' can't decide which one fits better! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Then IMHO, you are still foggy. And give us a break with the "Victoria" nonsense...none of us are falling for that ruse!

FLTH- please do some introspective work. There are people here who are truly hurting, who need a plan and SOLID advice from people who "get it." I can assure you that when I came here I was not handled with kid gloves, but I was woman enough to take it and turn my life and my thinking around. Stop causing trouble on the board and trying to convince people you are right, because you aren't. Not according to the principles of Dr. Harley OR his forum. There ARE forums who support your particular brand of "healing." Maybe your "advice" would be better accepted elsewhere.

Victoria38,

How safe do you feel right now posting on MB?

LA

(Edited because I couldn't tell a 2 from a 3.)

FLTH:

Interesting thread you started here.

I'm sure JustUss has her finger close to the edit button.

When is it the right time for the WS to reveal the Affair to the Betrayed Spouse?

The only correct answer is "As SOON as POSSIBLE"

Everything else is just......whatever.

Is the BS wronged? Yes.

Is the WS afraid? Yes.

Can the BS find out First? Yes.

The principle is Recovery. Recovery can not occur until all the secrets are out.

DDay WILL be an ugly day, whether the WS reveals or the BS finds out first.

Bad people do not reveal thier crimes, and until the WS moves to a place that they are not "Bad People" they will NOT reveal thier crimes. Simple fact of life. We can thunder from the mountain tops for that to be different, but its not going to work.

If you can not respect the fact that a WS informed the BS of the secrets in thier life, FINALLY, then NO WS can ever be helped here, because that litmus test CAN NEVER be met. Because you only have to say that they did it ten minutes, ten hours, ten days, whatever, too late.

LG

Or...

Don't confess if you still want to do it, cause you will be watched like a hawk and you won't be able to.

NOT confessing just leaves the door cracked..if not WIDE
open..to continue doing it.

committed

Mel:

I think I've decided that Texans must be a lot like the Italians I met while on a wild cab ride from Naples to Pozzuoli in 2004.

Lots of rolling down of windows, screaming, and hand ges2res, but none of it was personal... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long

Good question, LA! I don't feel "safe" posting around all this FOG on the forum today. The thick FOG is very, very scary... I am very SCARED, LA! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

I'm part Irish too, 2long! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

LOL! THat explains a lot! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long

This thread gives perfect cover to every fogged out wayward who comes here who is not really sincere. I can just hear the bullcrap now:

"I can't tell my H about my affair now because I am working on my personal growth." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

That could be milked by your standard wayward for YEARS!

Here's the thing...this whole discussion started when Brook CAME TO THIS SITE TO ASK WHAT SHE SHOULD DO!!! That does not happen very often, from what I've seen. Usually it is the BS who arrives here first and is frantically trying to pick themselves back up after being floored. Whether their WS told them or whether they found on their own, they are devastated.

SOOOOO, the point here is that when a WS comes to this board and asks whether she should tell the truth, anyone who PROMOTES Dr. Harley's teachings is going to say "TELL THE BS NOW!!!" They aren't going to say, "well, dear, let's help you feel better about yourself so that you can do the right thing when you decide the time is right." It just AIN'T gonna happen...until you add in people who aren't really on board with the Harley method, and should clearly find another board more suited to that type of thinking.

1. That is true, but if the WS is inclined 2 take advantage of... ...whatever... then they will. Every time.

2. At least here, they have a pretty darn good chance at being called out on the carpet for that.

3. And the trick is 2 call them on it without chasing them away, because: (see item 1).

-ol' 2long

Yep, and every WS who really wants help could not be run off by wild horses.


Darn, darn, darn good chance. Saying one can't expose because they are working on "personal growth" is a stunt that will quickly FAIL.


Something we have no control over.

But its not all bad, 2long, I am also part DUTCH and SWISS. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

MelodyLane, I have been reading on here for months now. You asked why is it so odd that today I decide to register and post. The answer is because I feel so passionate about this issue that I finally decided to post. My husband said some very hurtful things to me because he was in a hurry to come clean and tell me the whole truth and he was still very confused at that time. He has apologized many times for the things he said, but I can't forget them. I can forgive the affair, but I am having a hard time forgetting the words he said about me and our marriage, which he would never have said if he had taken some time to get his s**t together. Coming clean made him feel better, but hurt me immensely. I didn't say I wanted him to continue to see the OW and to lie to me about. I think that is the part you missed.

2Long:

I have to agree with this:


The LONGER we get to work'em over here, the better we have a chance of getting them to DO THE RIGHT THING.

LG

In all honesty....what can you expect when someone uses the minimalist phase of "a few" times when the more appropriate phrase would be MULTIPLE TIMES...

But hey...it could just be me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

committed

That explains the stopwatch and the clipboard, then! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long

Oh let me guess? "longtime lurker, right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Your story does not make a lick of sense. Nor does it ring true. sorry.

I'm willing 2 give her the benefit of a handful more posts.

Wow I can't believe that because my opinion and thinking is different from yours that you don't believe I am real. I will start a thread and post my story, as I have had a few questions lately that I have not seen already answered. I am surprised that you would attack me like this. Wow!

Not me. We have too many AKAs here who register new names ONLY to engage in debates and incite trouble. Its usually some other poster who is too cowardly to post under their usual name.

Someone who registers for the sole purpose of defending LYING to the spouse, while working on "personal growth" has no credibility.

Guess what - that would have likely happened no matter how long he took to confess his adultery.

We have examples here of BS's experience severe hurt when the WS has waited years after the A to confess. YEARS, Victoria. Because, here's the thing - while he might have used better words and "gotten his act together" if he waited longer, the main thing that would be running through your mind during D-Day is that, for all the time that passed between his A and his confession, you would have been living with and trusting someone who was choosing to be dishonest with you in the worst possible way.

And I am surprised that you would register to DEFEND LYING with a story that makes no sense, and then expect folks to believe you are a betrayed spouse! That just does not add to my feeling of "safety" around here somehow. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I am just SHOCKED that you were "hurt" by his confession of adultery! I bet if he had just worked on his "personal growth" for a few more years, he could have told you in a NON-HURTFUL way! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Enlighten me, then. How does this differ from long time members who post only 2 engage in debates and incite trouble? Like on a 2ple of threads 2day (this one being one of them?)


Maybe not. But maybe they'll learn something. Now that V is planning 2 start her own thread, I'll give her the benefit of a bunch more posts.

-ol' 2long

Mel:

This is not necessarily true:


WS shows up here, get blasted, disappears.

Happens alot.

Some, like Lala, take it and hang on, and grow from it.

Because they were ready to. (Not calling you out LaLa, just your the most recent example. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The ACT of coming here, searching to find a way OUT of the pig pen, IS a first step.

The rest of the steps ARE up to the wayward. But if we help them get thier footing and get them climbing out, then that will allow the next steps to occur.

1. Revealing the Affair.
2. Working for recovery
3. Recovered Marriage.

That's a short list, it should be about 20 steps, but you get the drift.

The first step is climbing out of the pig pen. And maybe IF they have done that, and then they come here, the advice to reveal to thier BS WILL be given. And have that step NOT be delayed any longer.

But it takes alot of strengh to do that. And it doesn't take wild horses to chase them away.

This THREAD could have helped many WS in the future who read it, if it was about the consequenses of delaying, the ways to tell, how to handle some of the possible direct fall out, what to expect the next day, and explore some of the WS fears: "I might get killed" "I might lose everything" "I might be homeless" And how in many cases THAT doesn't happen. The WS is wrapped up in the "I". But if they read this thread, and the experiences of other WS, it COULD have helped them gain the strengh they need to continue the climb.

But the thread went elsewhere.

Just my 02.

LG

I don't know of any long time members who just come here to incite trouble, [who haven't been banned, that is] so you would have to be more specific.



Why would she learn something if she doesn't come here for help but to defend lying and take a side in a debate? you are free to give such a person the benefit of the doubt, I can't imagine why, but to each his own.

WOW!!!!

V38:

Yes, Start your own thread.

Reading your post, I get what you trying to say.

Your WH revealed his A to you, then heaped coals of hatred about what was wrong with the M and how his A was all your fault.

You would have appreciated it better if he had revealed the A and said that he was REALLY meassed up in the head, and he was looking to fix this mess he made.

If he did THAT, waiting an extra day would have been worth it. However. What happened, happened.

Let's deal with that.

LG

Okay, the ones that haven't been banned.


See? it's a matter of opinion.

-ol' 2long

That is the KEY PHRASE, LG: "because they were ready." Truly, we do not have the power to force someone to repent against their will. Some believe they have that power, we do not.

The ones who really want to change could not be run off by wild horses. The ones who don't want to get honest, will run off by most anything.

This thread has been exposed for what it truly is: a weak rationalization for continued lying to a betrayed spouse under the guise of selfish interests.[seeking "personal growth"]

That is all it is and it needs to deemed as such. Lying is profoundly destructive and only delays recovery. That kind of CRAP such never ever be condoned on a forum that advocates HONESTY and RECOVERY.

This kind of fogged out, wacky thinking makes me feel UNSAFE. I do not FEEL SAFE.

More on topic:


- Richard Bach, from "The Bridge Across Forever"

-ol' 2long

Still not following ya. I guess you will have to be more specific, 2Long.

That's part of the point. I don't want to incite further trouble.

So, I'm not going 2 answer that 2uestion.



-ol' 2long

Doesn't seem to have worked with you now though does it LG?

LG,


You are so right.

FL, In the end you learned what you needed to learn so you could confess and get your M in to recovery. If you had gone off half cocked, your marriage might not have survived. The issue for you was "did you want to be right" and tell your H immediately or "did you want to be married". You chose to want to be married.

You didn't leave here. You stayed and learned to get through the fog so you could tell. Not every WS cuts through the fog on their first visit here.

The veterans here have a choice to help them through the fog or beat them up. I bet the Harley's figure it sometimes takes more than one session with them to convince the WS to confess. I'd find it hard to believe they would beat up the newbie, but instead help coach them through it.

V38, I understand what you were saying too!

OK let the beatings resume!

Blessings.

S&C

FLT2H - That is some incredible SPIN you are doing here. I cannot believe anyone would advocate dishonesty as a good thing.

It may have taken you 4 months to get the courage to confess and kudos to your for doing it but to advocate that position is ridiculous.

You feed right into peoples fears about doing the right thing.

WS's LOVE excuses not to act in honourable ways and here you and others are excusing that inaction.

Good Grief.

I totally agree Mel.

Mel...BK...great points. I wanted to alter the title too....How Long should I lie to my spouse?

Thanks for sharing Miss M. What you term insults, I suggest is fact based on what I have been told by those that I referenced. I also am trying to understand why some people are willing to tolerate things that most would consider unacceptable. I look at their history and find clues.

I do appreciate the "ignore" though as I will no longer need to explain myself to you. I hope a few others follow suit.

I thought your confession was not completed all on one day ... maybe I am confused (I am old) ....

you have got to be kidding!!!!

so i must also be wildhorses too.

ML you have hit a new low accusing me like that. just unbelievable.

and the word "few" is not as good as the word "multiple"???
just ridiculous!!

i've stated what i wanted to here. some will see what i am saying and even agree perhaps to an extent, some will not. does not matter to me.

pep, i am happy to answer your question. you were there for it all, no you are not missing anything. it's all in my profile, i am not hiding anything. after my first confession, i got into IC and continued posting here as well. yes it took many months before i was able to face everything at which point there was a second d-day where all was confessed.

and someone also asked me about if during the 4 months was i trolling, no, that is not accurate, however it is accurate that there were times after the confession that i was tempted to backslide. FF became a bit of a accountablity person alowing me to call her on my dark days, as did my IC, and i did post on this board about it too. all actions i was taking to fight myself out of old habits/patterns.

so, yes i was a woman fighting to not fall back into my destructive patterns as i was working fully facing myself and my life which allowed me to finally confess all.

i have no problem admitting that.

and if you want to have a field day with that information, knock yourself out.

yeah, i'm wildhorses too, because after all i must be, she also understands and it sounds like agrees with what i'm saying.

yup, i've been planning this since 8/23/06.

pep, you've know me from the start, you and JL were so extraordinarly instrumental in my life. are you telling me you also think i'm victoria??

just unreal.

I was just trying to confirm if what I recalled about this was accurate or inaccurate - I do not choose to have a "field day"

I will not bother you anymore

pep, you are not a bother. you are not who i was referring to. did you see my question to you?

p.s. click on my name, the info about me having 2 day days is all there as is the details of my affairs.

medc,

I think you have a lot of good things to say, a lot of good advice, don't get me wrong.

I am a CA, too much drama in my past, so these kind of threads really are painful to me.

You don't need to explain yourself to me, I'm just a cheerleader kind of person, focusing on the good. Yourself and several others on this board are straight shooters, so to speak and that is valuable here.

My point was that the person in questions' ws had the op picture at the office, not at home. Quibbling, I know.

My anger got me in a lot of trouble in the past. I know I am subjective. It just pains me to see this going on. And I got angry. I hate that. When I react. Apology offered for the DJ.

Carry on, you are valuable here.

Love in Christ,
Miss M

huh? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Here's what I think .....I believe that personal recovery needs to be grounded in marital recovery. All the while you are trying to "learn" and "grow", you are leaving your spouse completely out of the picture, which is absolutely what brought you to have an affair. Marriage is a two = one deal, and you need to learn to be who you are, the best you, WITHIN THAT CONTEXT. There is no learning and growing from your mistakes on your own when those mistakes affect another, namely your spouse.

Just my two cents.


NOW

HI NOW!!! i'm not sure i agree with you that a person cannot grow and learn on their own but it sure is nice to "see" you! Hope all is going well for you!

Hi to you too! I'm doin' great, thanks for asking!
Busy, though....but a "good" busy!

Yes, you CAN learn and grow on your own, but you can only go so far by yourself...it would be like having a bunch of book knowledge but not quite knowing how to apply it, not quite putting it into practice....what good is it that way?
AND, if you are trying to learn and grow to help your marriage, I don't see how that's possible without involving your spouse from the get-go....you could be barking up the wrong tree in the meanwhile. I mean, how do you know what to do without feedback from your spouse? We're talking about marriage, a TEAM...know what I mean?

Edited to add: How do you know if what you are "learning" is what is going to be best for your marriage unless you involve your spouse?

NOW

absolutely agree.

you can only go so far,

NOW, i am NOT at all abdocating not confessing, that was the start of applying what i was learning, and we all agree confessing is not barkign up the wrong tree. true?

the years between the early stuff and then what i did 15 yrs into the marriage, i totally belived it was not harmful to not confess. i truely believed i was being a good wife during those years.

that is why i had no constant guilt eating at me. i totally thought we could have a good marriage even though he did not know about these things.

if i had not come here and learned those things with the help of all those posts from JL and so many other here, that never would have changed.

FL, what it sounds like you are saying is that you are advocating waiting until you start some sort of personal recovery before confessing...I think that is what most of the participants of this thread are objecting to...and that's the point I'm trying to make....you should BEGIN recovery with your spouse, because having an affair is not just a "personal" problem.

then lets not call it, the time between stopping an A and confessing, recovery.

call it what you want but i know i absolutely had no chance at confessing until i learned what i learned here.

i recall JL saying something about how i would come to understand that what i did while engaged and 5yrs into the marriage so much worse/more damaging when i was seeing it the opposite way. he was absolutely right, i did come to understand exactly what he meant.

a person can do what they know.

i'm ok if no one else understands what i'm saying. but i am listening to others here, like yourself, to see if something sticks. so far, i'm still at the point i was yesterday, finally able to forgive myself for not confessing the day i registered here, because i stayed here and i did learn, nothing drove me away, and i was NOT handled with kid gloves either. but i kept coming back, i learned, i grew and then i finally confessed.

sure is better than the alternative of continuing to live my life the way i was living it.

so, that's it, bottomline i'm sharing my experience. if it does not fit even one other situation, so be it.

I'll have to chime in and simply say, I don't know what I would have preferred other than that my FWH hadn't had an affair to begin with.

I can't say personally if I would have felt any better or worse had he spent 4 months agonizing over how to tell me of his betrayal.

I think, but I don't really know, that even waiting four months, would have been better than me having to find out on my own. Certainly, on d-day, the affair was freshly ended and FWH was still a bit foggy on the seriousness of his betrayal.

He still felt sorry for OW which annoyed the crap out of me.

Perhaps it would have been easier had he had time to work thru everything emotionally himself and rid himself of any guilt or remorse wasted on the OW.

I suspect that I might have felt better if he could have focused more on my feelings than either his own or OW's.

Truth is, I dunno.

Who

I think I understand now what you were trying to say....that's it in a nutshell, isn't it?
Nothing more than that, nothing less.
So it may have taken you longer than some, but the fact remains, you DID confess, you never advocated anyone waiting to confess, you were just saying that it took some learning and growing to even get to that point....is that correct?



NOW

NOW, yes, that is correct. and i do realize i was very lucky DH did not discovery anything on his own. i am glad he was spared that pain. i see what another was saying about the risk. i did the best i could. i still am.

who, thanks for sharing.

i really got to get my butt in the car and into the lab now!!

Have a great day, FL!!!!!!!!!!!!

NOW, you may be long gone by now but just in case... you have a great day too.

This is how I took it also. Not as encouragement to others to continue to lie, but her own story of what she needed to do to gain the courage to confess and to help her BH with her whole heart in it.

I think waywards that come here looking for help are still in a very fragile mindset themselves and CAN be scared away (even with something less than "wild horses"). They take that first step and reach their hand out for help in taking the next one. "We" can take their hand and help guide the way, or we can slap the hand and knock them off balance.

While "we" are not wholly responsible for their fall, we certainly weren't helpful in getting them to the next step either.

I think the key here is that a heartfelt confession and remorse from someone who is trying to recover from being a wayward is different than a wayward who simply admits what they have done/are doing.

One wants to heal and assist their BS in healing, the other wants to ease their own guilt or cause pain to their BS.

If it takes four months to prepare to confess no harm if the WS has NC with the OM, using the time to study here.

WS has learned what the BS needs, will feel, and how to recover. That when WS confesses not to be brutal, but honest, not to trickle out the truth.

I was going to stay out of this thread because after posting on a debate board for many years I really don't have any desire to debate any longer.

As many of you know I waiting 15 months before I confessed. In those 15 months I went from the thinking I was going to "take the A to the grave" to fully understanding why I needed to confess.

I was working hard on changing our marriage, my DH was following right along and our marriage was improving. My DH will still admit had I not confessed he would have never known and I probably would have "gotten away with it".

I learned in those 15 months that if I didn't tell him we would not have a solid foundation to build our marriage on and it would have been built on deceit and lies. This is something I did not believe for a long time.

I will admit I was not going to tell and didn't all that time for selfish reasons and fear. I will also say had I not gotten my head on straight before I confessed our marriage probably would not have survived. It would have been the same had I been caught because I was very much like Lino's and Eyeofthestorm's WW's (not picking on you 2 just stating a fact). My entitlement would have driven me right out the door and I would not have focused on my DH.

In parts of this thread I see a lot of black and white thinking (something I use to be very guilty of until I went to therapy). The black and white of it is, Yes WS's should confess and they should do it right away, but the gray of it for me is I had to get my head on straight before I could even consider it.

I'm not saying the way I did it was the right way, but I did do it the way I thought I needed to. My DH and I have discussed this and we both know that had I not dealt with my personal issues and had my head on straight before my confession our marriage would not be what it is now.

Because I was able to deal with my issues before I confessed and truly understand why it was so important allowed me to put my baggage aside and do what I needed to do to help my DH.

I also know our recovery period didn't start until my confession and yes, it probably would have been better to start recovery sooner, but in the end it worked out for us.

FL, I know exactly what you are saying. It's not about continuing to lie, it's about getting to a place where you can confess.

WhoMe,

Your post pretty much says what I did, it just took me a long time to get to the point of being able to set my stuff aside.

LC

lc, this is the main issue as I see it. Recovery is impossible until the truth comes out. Honesty is the first step in recovery. A wayward has the same mentality as a addict, and honesty is always the first step towards recovery. Without honesty, recovery is simply impossible. Personal recovery and marital recovery. That is a simple true fact. Some might take longer to get to the treatment center than others, but recovery does not begin until they get there.

I suspect you would have recovered sooner if you HAD told your H the truth sooner rather than later.

My main concern is and will remain the best interest of the BS and the marriage. It is always in the best interest of the BS to find out at the earliest opportunity so he can protect himself. Every day the truth is withheld is another lie added to the mix. Nor does the marriage have a CHANCE until the truth is known. The truth is the solution to adultery, not more lies, not more deceit.

It is also in the best interest of the WS to confess the truth, because that is how recovery begins.

What scares me about FLTH's angle is she rationalizes that seeking "personal growth" [which is impossible without honesty] is an excuse to delay telling the truth to her victim. I know how a wayward mind works and telling waywards something like this is nothing more than handing them a license to deceive and betray. Even a half wit con artist can figure that out.

It could take years to achieve the right level of "personal growth" using such a standard. Or it may never happen! A wayward mind will look for anything to avoid facing the consequences.

Waywards are always looking for ways out of telling the truth and I view this tactic as more of the same.

The bottom line is that the BS deserves the truth regardless of the level of "personal growth" of the WS. It is the right thing to tell him without delay. His right to know supercedes the perceived "personal growth" of the wayward. While the WS is working on her "personal growth" the BS can work on protecting himself from her. That is his right.

No one has a right to take that away from him and deny him the facts of his own life when he is being harmed behind his back. I would also point out the fogged out WS is the LEAST QUALIFIED to determine what is in the best interest of the BS. They are the least objective, the least clear thinking and clearly do not have the best interests of the BS at heart. Only the BS is qualified to determine what is in his own best interest.

This is a forum that encourages and facilitates honesty and recovery. Continued lying to one's victim is in direct contradiction with that purpose. As Dr. Harley has stated: HONESTY IS THE SOLUTION TO ADULTERY, NOT MORE DECEIT.

Here is what stands out to me about this thread...

It isn't about the fact that most of us know that a WS will not usually confess right away...Most folks realize that a WS that does confess takes time to get to that point...

What I found off-putting is that it seemed [to ME] that FLTH was holding up her BAD behavior as a GOOD example...I don't see the point of doing that...

She is long past confessing to her husband, and so it appeared [to ME] to be an effort at stirring things up based on her feelings about Brooke's situation...She's clearly had a bone to pick for several days now-her multiple callouts of other board members, along with hostile posts on another thread have demonstrated that in my eyes...

Just callin' 'em like I sees 'em...

Mrs. W

IMO, this is true of ACTIVE waywards. But what about the ones just beginning to come out of the fog and beginning to realize what has happened around them?

Please don't get me wrong....I am not advocating lying. Just further delving into a subject that is not right/wrong or black/white.

I agree that true recovery cannot begin until the truth is shared. Often at the times of confession/admittance the wayward is not recommited to the marriage.

What would BS prefer to hear:

1) I was unfaithful and I'm not sure I want to continue the M, I don't know what I feel, I don't know if we can make it (confusion, hurt, defensiveness, withdrawal from OP, etc)

2) I was unfaithful and I am so sorry for what I have done to you. I want to commit to us, I want to love you. What I've done is a mistake, what can I do to make it up to you? (honest remorse, honest fears, honest hopes, honest commitment, honest care for the BS)

I don't know that a WS going off half-cocked just to get the confession off their chest is good for either the WS or the BS.

I believe that a WS cannot be completely honest with a BS until they are completely honest with themselves. There's no switch that says "wayward" and it goes off an on and when the switch is OFF they know exactly what to do.

Eye of the beholder, I guess. I didn't see that at all.

That's okay wildhorses, I've noticed that you and I rarely see things the same way...It's cool...

Mrs. W

I view a WS that hasn't told the TRUTH as an ACTIVE wayward...Kinda of like a "dry drunk" imo...

Mrs. W

I look at this from a slightly different angle. My advice to someone who is debating whether and when to confess is to do it, and do it now. While I certainly understand the moral side of this, I look at it from a more pragmatic view.

First, for any that chose to delay and it worked out for them, I believe that you caught a lucky break. Lucky that the delay didn't cause further withdrawal in your M, lucky that you used the time for personal growth, lucky that you maintained the resolve to confess, lucky that life circumstances didn't change to make the confession even harder, and heck, lucky that you weren't hit by a bus before you confessed. If one feels like luck played no part in the chain of events, then I think you may be fooling yourself. Having a tommorrow is never a certainty.

While it may have worked out for you, asking someone to take the same chance as you is, IMHO, reckless.

Second, the vast majority of the people making this decision are predisposed to delaying or avoiding it. Chances are, even the most influential among us isn't going to get them to speed up their timeline. But the least influential among us can easily get them to slow it down. See point 1 about slowing it down.

At first that's what I thought, but we discussed it a bit and I found that was not her intent at all.

She was simply stating that she owes her decision to finally confess to being here, reading and learning. She owes it to the people here that were willing to guide her, regardless of whether she had confessed yet or not.

She kicked herself over and over and over for not confessing sooner....did you miss that? She said she has FINALLY forgiven herself for "taking too long".


And what was the point of saying that?


NOW

THIS is what I saw.

AGree. In my mind, that is like expecting the drunk driver [a chronic alcoholic] to take the time deciding when it is "right" for him to stop drinking and driving. It makes no sense to ascribe powers of reason to a falling down drunk.

That is not her position at all. Did you read her posts on this thread, NOW? She thinks it was for the best and said: "i will absolutely not recommend rushing to confess."

This is after she applauded her decision to wait 4 months to tell her H:


So yes, she has now changed her position and concluded it was a GOOD THING to continue to deceive her H for 4 months.

This commment summarizes her position, IMO:

And FL never said it was a good idea to "wait" to confess...she simply indicated HOW she got to that point.
On her own, she likely would not have confessed, ever. But she was HERE, learning about all the reasons it was best that she did.
If someone new comes here, and they have not yet confessed to having an affair, I suspect FL's concern is that they will be written off as a lost cause or something, maybe even leave before reaching the point of confession.
The point is, MB can help a person come to the right decision....though it might take some time.


NOW

That time spent learning....do you think it was a "bad" thing then?

I don't think she was applauding herself for waiting, I think she was glad that during the time she avoided it, she was working toward that point.

Yes, I did read her posts.

This is what stands out for me on this thread.


A quote by FL


This is where FL was when she came here.




This is what happened while she was here. She changed. Which lead to…


No she was not in “recovery” during that 4 month period, but their recovery was probably shorter because she confessed a repented woman ready to work on the M.

I know my recovery would have been faster if my W came to me a repented woman rather than telling me about her A and asking for a D.

As a BS, I’ll take any confession; but I’d rather take a confession with repentance and a willingness to work on the M, than a confession asking for a D followed by a spew of rewritten history, I never loved you’s; or other demoralizing and hurtful things.


Some people on this thread seem to want to beat this horse until their opponent raises a white flag to surrender and offers an apology for not being able to live in their ideal world.

I think she did good. She confessed, was remorseful and wanting to fix the M. I would have killed for that situation back on D-Day. It took my W a year and a half to actually start working on the M.


S&C

Because NOW, that is how *I* see it...The point of saying it was to give MY opinion...Maybe you were not aware of the circumstances surrounding the origin of this thread...I was...Simple as that...

Mrs. W

Btw, EXCELLENT post rprynne...I agree!

Mrs. W

This is what I think sums up her position in a nutshell...



So "rushing to confess".....would never have happened.

thanks S&C and NOW.

i'm glad this topic is being discussed. i hope it is helpful to some. i'm not concerned about the attempts of others to discredit me or do whatever they think they are accomplishing.

hi rpynne,

i have already stated, i see the risk you are talking about, i have already acknowledged i was lucky. as with all risks there are benifits and disadvantages to both sides. and so i am also stating the benefit that occured in my situation.

Well then, let me just say, I disagree with you, and that I think it's harmful to speculate about these kinds of things.

Why would I need to know about some other thread?
All I need to know is what she MEANS by what she says, and I got that.

NOW

Mrs. W. and you don't think you are doing exactly what you accuse me of?

do you think i should not post?

have you not been editted yourself these past few days for your own attacking words.

has anyone else noticed that victori38, a brand new poster, has had only one response to her question?

******************edit**************

Sure, I've been edited here, no doubt I will be again...I don't question the mods, I trust their judgment...

I think you are a "firestarter" here FLTH...I got frustrated when you posted baiting another poster here...My words to you on that thread were edited...Fair Enough...

On the other hand, you start HOSTILE callout threads to other board members...Get admonished and the thread gets LOCKED...What is your response? You start TWO more callout threads to the same member...A total thumbing your nose at the mods here...GOOD GRIEF...Talk about lack of respect and entitlement!!! Not to mention your last post on this thread, specifically trying to BLAME other board members for another poster not getting enough replies in your opinion...Yet another attempt to STIR THE POT!!! What gives???

Mrs. W

what is that then? Is the "time frame" the problem? 4 months? 2 months? 1 month? 2 weeks? 1 week?

If a person doesn't rush to confess, it means that they should take their time and wait til the time is right...correct?

You cannot have it both ways...

Don't rush....but I'm not telling you to wait either. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

committed (and confused)

Mrs. W. it all started when i posted to ML asking her to re-consider what she had just posted as her words might be hurtful to Brooke given what just occured.

ML's response was: i don't care about Brook's feelings.

and you look at that exchange and call me hostile??

Boy that is a big misinterpretation of what was said FLTH...I read the thread...That is NOT the way it was worded...She said that she cared more about Brooke's VICTIM than Brooke's FEELINGS...Which is exactly as it should be...Not sure why you are confused on that...The focus should be on the VICTIM FLTH...NOT on the PERP...

Mrs. W

i'ld quote her words but from the look of it, i'm not allowed to do that. JustUss just editted out words of two other posters that I just quoted. And yet the original quotes that I copied on pages 4 and 5 remain.

of course it's fine for my words to be quoted and re-quoted all they want.

how does that make sense?

Callout threads to others are by their very nature HOSTILE FLTH-Unless you are calling out for POSITIVE reasons FLTH and NOT doing so to DISAGREE or try to get someone to RETRACT their statements...

Mrs. W