My wife and I have now been separated for about 9 months during which I have been making many huge changes in my life that should have been made long ago to prevent the situation. I just recently found out that a few months into our separation that she became close with a male co-worker who is also married. They slowly built their friendship until a point in which the other man asked my wife to kiss him when they were walking together. She did, and they both stopped it immediately, feeling guilty since they are both married. They agreed that it was wrong, and that their friendship had went in the wrong direction and they decided to not spend time together for a month or so to let feeling subside. After that they began to try to continue their relationship as "friends". From my vantage point alone they spent a lot of time together. I was a little suspicious. Just a few weeks ago I found out about the whole thing which they had kept from me as well as his wife until it came out in the open via someone else that knew. I told my wife that I didn't feel comfortable with her seeing him at all outside of work, even though the "romantic" part of the relationship was said to be done with. She thinks that because there was only one kiss and because they have made attempts to stop the romance that she should still be able to have a friendship with the guy. She has since our discussion stopped spending so much time with him, and only sees him outside of work if his wife is present. I still feel uncomfortable about it, even though I believe my wife when she says that the romantic feelings are gone. I have already tried plan A in that I asked her to cut ties with him besides work. I have been working hard to try to show her love so that she is not tempted to go towards him. But she still wants to maintain a friendship. Being that we are still separated and the fragile nature of our relationship, I don't feel like I can use plan B without pushing her further away from me. Any ideas about how I can handle this? As of right now all I can do is give her consistent love deposits, but she doesn't give me much undivided attention to work with, besides when I spend time at home with our daughter, I get time with my wife alone for 2 hours a week to talk together, and for about an hour a week at counseling(which doesn't quite count as alone although it is helpful). The counselor doesn't know about this yet, since we just started and I don't want to make any waves since I am glad that my wife has agreed to go and don't want to endanger that.
I would appreciate any helpful ideas or thoughts on this. Thanks.

Welcome to MB, I'm sorry that you find yourself here, especially on New Year's Eve. This is the best club you NEVER wanted to be a part of.

How long have you been married? Since you are separated, who is paying for her to live somewhere else. Have you spoken with OM's wife?

My advice would be to set an appt with one of the Harley's. They are the best in this business and it's worth any amount of money. Do you think your W would talk on the phone with them?

If not, not a problem. I have spoken with them twice and it has given me a focus to move forward and develop a plan so that when the tough times come around, I had something written down to work with.

I'm sure with the holiday it will be slow on here tonight, but don't give up. There are so many amazing people on here who can help you....

I'm just DDay#2+_6 days, so take this for what it's worth (granted, I'm thirteen years past DDay #1, so a little experience).

Read everything you can on this site. Then read it again! Lots of great information here. Information on how to help your marriage and help your spouse come out of the fog that is the other person.

It sucks, it hurts, it's like talking to the wall, but understand that your wayward spouse is in la-la land and is not using all of their brain to think clearly. This site has been a Godsend to me! I simply couldn't continue without the support provided here.

I'm sure you will get much better advice than I'm giving now (especially after a few beverages...Happy new Year!

My counselor put it nicely when he said, "when a person is falling in love, their brain chemistry changes...they don't see the world correctly...they are falling in love...or so they think" (it's what we call at MB the 'fog'). Ready, post, read some more, post some more, then develop a plan.

Hang in there.

zambo, I am sorry you are here. But you are in the right place.

Counseling is useless when one party is an affair. It will be a waste of your time. And that is in a venue with a 84% FAILURE RATE. Marriage counseling is rarely successful because most marriage counselors don't have the slightest notion how to save a marriage. Most are not pro-marriage and are little more than divorce facilitators.

But let me run this scenario by you. A fairly common tactic of a person in an affair who wants to get out of a marriage with as little fuss as possible is to hide the affair and ask the spouse for a separation. They tell the spouse they have "been unhappy for years," "I love you but am not in love with you...." etc, etc, and then ask for "some space" to think things over in order to save the marriage.

Wanting "space" always means "wanting space" to have an affair because if a marriage is in trouble, the logical solution is to fix the marriage, right? Well, one can't fix the marriage if they aren't there, can they? If a marriage is in trouble one works to TURN THAT AROUND. But if someone is in an affair, they want to "get space", ie: get the spouse out so they will be free to carry on the affair.

To my astonishment, many poor gullible husbands go along with this and even will leave their own homes to give the wife some "space" under the illusion that appeasing her will save their marriaqe.

In reality, moving out only enables the affair and puts the spouse in a terrible legal position. Many courts view this as abandonment. It allows the OM to come into the home and take the place of the betrayed husband. They flaunt the affair in front of the children and tell them a pretty story about how this is mommy's new "friend," teaching children that wrong is right.

Does this scenario have any resonance for you?

Hello and Welcome,



Zambo--re-read what you wrote; Does this really sound like a plausible set of events to you? Really, reading it, it sounds like something a 12 year old might write in a short story. I am not depracating you or your ability to communicate. YOU seem very articulate. It just sounds like something your wayward wife told you that is the G rated version of events that really happened.


[/quote]She has since our discussion stopped spending so much time with him, and only sees him outside of work if his wife is present. I still feel uncomfortable about it, even though I believe my wife when she says that the romantic feelings are gone. [/quote]

Does his wife know about the situation? His wife is spending time with her H and your wife--does she know they have been "kissing"?

[/quote] Being that we are still separated and the fragile nature of our relationship, I don't feel like I can use plan B without pushing her further away from me. Any ideas about how I can handle this? [/quote]

I agree that it is not time for plan B, but it seems that she has pushed you quite a ways away already since you are out of the home and have minimal contact with her. Can you move back into your home? It would really be best if you could move back in.

[/quote]The counselor doesn't know about this yet, since we just started and I don't want to make any waves since I am glad that my wife has agreed to go and don't want to endanger that.
I would appreciate any helpful ideas or thoughts on this. Thanks. [/quote]

I don't think you can proceed without making waves in order to save your marriage: You are not living in your home, have minimal contact with your daughter, minimal contact with your wife. Your wife acknowledges that she "kissed" a coworker. I think it will be hard to respond to all of that with a plan that does not make "waves".

Welcolm to MB. Last place any of us wanted to be.


I sence a person being "gaslighted" here into thinking that this A has not been going on for at least a year or more at this point.


Bullcrap!! This has been going on and is far more involved than you ever imagined.

Why did you move out and abandon your M?

Space is a code word to let me have my A in peace without your prying eyes. Time to do a lot more digging into the "space" you have given your WW to carry on her A under your nose.

I wish you well but fear you are very much in the dark about what is going on and have been for quite some time.

All Blessings,
Jerry

Married 4 1/2 years, been together 9 years. Separated 9 months. She is paying, I am the one living somewhere else. This was her request, not mine. all based upon my failure to be responsible in the past. I have since made huge changes in the areas she has had problems with. We have just started counseling together, and that is how we were introduced to the Harley material.

Bingo.

Yes it does in some ways. I do want you to know a few things though. First, I did not decide to move out, it was her decision and was based upon my failures as a husband which I have since been trying to fix and improve. Also, I stick close enough to the family to make sure I have a keen eye on what is going on. second. I do believe that the counseling will work good for us, I am skeptical of most counseling and doctors in general, but this guy has a biblical background(seminary degree as well as great psychological credentials). He is the one who gave me the Marley book, and got me on this site. I am fairly certain that there is no contact with the other man that I do not know about outside of work. My wife also seems willing to take small steps towards restoring our marriage. She has shown many great attitude changes just since our counseling session together where we were introduced to the Love Bank/Buster concepts.

Maybe so, and I do plan to try to investigate this without offending my wife. I am close enough now though to know whether or not something is or isn't going on. I am worried about the truth about the past though. I want to get to the bottom of this without making her feel like I don't trust or believe her, since things are going so well now between us, and she is finally beginning to make efforts towards restoration.

zambo

It was her decision based on the fact she was having an affair.

Since when does she get to decide you have to move out?

Counselling is useless while she is in an affair. If she works with the guy or has ANY contact with him she is in an affair.

She has since our discussion stopped spending so much time with him, and only sees him outside of work if his wife is present. I still feel uncomfortable about it, even though I believe my wife when she says that the romantic feelings are gone. [/quote]

Does his wife know about the situation? His wife is spending time with her H and your wife--does she know they have been "kissing"?

[/quote] Being that we are still separated and the fragile nature of our relationship, I don't feel like I can use plan B without pushing her further away from me. Any ideas about how I can handle this? [/quote]

I agree that it is not time for plan B, but it seems that she has pushed you quite a ways away already since you are out of the home and have minimal contact with her. Can you move back into your home? It would really be best if you could move back in.

[/quote]The counselor doesn't know about this yet, since we just started and I don't want to make any waves since I am glad that my wife has agreed to go and don't want to endanger that.
I would appreciate any helpful ideas or thoughts on this. Thanks. [/quote]

I don't think you can proceed without making waves in order to save your marriage: You are not living in your home, have minimal contact with your daughter, minimal contact with your wife. Your wife acknowledges that she "kissed" a coworker. I think it will be hard to respond to all of that with a plan that does not make "waves". [/quote]

I am worried that things may have been deeper than I have been told. But I am also willing to consider that m wife's words are true. I don't think that she has the heart to betray her husband and daughter by going further than that. I think that she thinks that there was no adultery at all considering how far she allowed it to go. I have always known her to be a woman of boundaries that she will set up and not go past and appease her conscience because of it.

Yes the other mans wife knows and she has "forgiven" her "apologetic" husband and continues to allow the friendship, although she has expressed her uncomfortably with it, which explains them only spending time together when she is there. And according to the story they have only kissed one time and that was about 6 months ago. And since they have spent time apart.

I actually do have quite the amount of contact with both my wife and daughter(I have made sure of it.) As of today, no I cannot move back in, since that would be a sign of disrespect towards my wife, and an extreme lovebuster. I know that moving back in would be best, and I am working towards that, but anything demanding towards her just pushes her away, so I am going to have to meet her emotional needs the best I can in my position that I am in until it becomes much easier for her to consider wanting me living there again. (I do stay there on occasion, 1-4 times a week, it fluctuates depending upon her mood, and my circumstance.) My prayer and goal is that i make the best of the times I am there so that me being there is seen as a benefit, and not a burden. This is hard for me, for I have bad communication habits. I tend to be strongly opinionated(especially in regards to biblical truth) and I usually speak many more words than necessary.

And I have made "waves' already(bringing this up to all parties involved, and stating my view on what needs to be done; no contact), but do not want to continue to make things a conflict and therefore kill the intimacy I have been trying to rebuild.

hope this clarifies some things and gives you a better idea of what is going on, and where things are at.

zambo

well considering I was not providing proper financial support(as well as being involved in drugs at the time), in some respects, she does have a right to tell me to leave. But now that I have changed in many ways, I think she should now let me back in, but I can't force her to do that.

also, she hardly knew the guy when she had me move out.

and you know this because........ she told you?????

just so you don't think I was smoking crack rocks or something, drugs=mary jane regardless, my smoking was affecting our family and relationship, as well as putting me in legal risk.

he had just got hired at the time.

This has to be one of the best cases of gas-lighting that I've ever seen on this forum. A BS that's actually been convinced that living in his own home would be a sign of disrespect towards his WW!

Zambo,

You're being gaslighted.

You have a fog of your own that is so thick it's disturbing.

For starters, you have been kicked out of your own home, separated from your daughter, and you're ok with this? You blame yourself?

Second, a walk and a kiss?

Please!

We've been on this forum long enough to know that there's a lot more going on thanY this.

She's pulled a good one on you, my friend.

I know what you're thinking too. You're thinking, "These guys just dont know WW like I do. She's sweet and she's different and they just don't know her like I do. She wouldn't cross the boundary more than just kissing."

I told myself similar things. Sure, her Myspace page was just to "make friends". Sure, it was just innocent flirting and i was the one who was crazy to think otherwise despite the evidence to the contrary.

I was the one who was irrational and crazy.

So this woman takes you away from your home and your daughter and you blame yourself. Brilliant. She is a very smart woman indeed.

You're being setup, bud. You're being setup as a man who left, because you did, and who has drug problems and therefore can't see his daughter as often as he should.

It's brilliant and you're falling for it hook, line and sinker.

What should you do?

Move into your home. Not doing so puts your rights as a father in very real danger.

Second, it gives you the time to spend with your WW to actually work on your marriage.

Third, it removes her ability to continue cheating. If she's not cheating with the same guy, then she's cheating with someone else.

You would disrupt that or make it difficult with your presence.

Seriously, what would she do if you move back into your home?

You're being gaslighted and need to wake up. Not doing so puts your rights as a father in danger.

Trust me, cheating adulterous wives are very devious and cunning and excellent manipulators. She'll take advantage of your emotions and your desire to reconcile to get you to do her wishes.

And she'll say things like, "I was willing to work on things but you just ruined any chance of that!"

And let me be clear about something, you CANT trust her again. So she has no right to say that you can't trust her. SHE violated that trust.

But what she's doing is brilliant. You can't spy because that would show you don't trust. Absolutely brilliant. She cheats on you and has you supporting her, out of your home, and buying her garbage.

No better way to keep cake eating than to give you the illusion that she's contemplating recovery. Absolutely brilliant.

I never said that I am ok with not living at home, forcefully moving in would come across as disrespectful.

... or strong and decisive

zambo, you are joking, right? You can't possibly believe that going to your own home is disrespectful. Kicking a man out of his own home to have an affair IS disrespect. Going home is not.

It is not a lovebuster to go to your own home, friend. Lets look at the list of lovebusters:

Selfish Demands
Disrespectful Judgments
Angry Outbursts
Annoying Habits
Independent Behavior
Dishonesty

Nowhere on there does it say that not enabling your wife's adultery by vacating your own home is a lovebuster. That is insane.

Leaving your home was ENABLING your wifes affair and ABANDONING your children. The OM is now free to go into your home and corrupt your children. This is how little children are molested and you have left them at a time when they needed you most.

Appeasing a wayward who is hellbent on destroying your marriage for her adultery will result in a .............destroyed marriage. Appeasement will lead to the destruction of your marriage and your children's family.

You have abandoned your children, Sir. And most judges view it as such.

How are things going well between you when she is having an affair and you have been allowed her to boot you from your home? You should not make her feel like she is trusted if she is not trustworthy. That would be silly. Your wife is having an affair, Sir. How in the world is that trustworthy behavior?

Do you think that a person who lies to you and cheats on you is "trustworthy" or worthy of "belief?"

Zambo... Zambo... This is quite scary to see someone this foggy. Do you think that maybe you should try to save your marriage?

Zambo,

My advice comes as a man who did exactly what you're doing. You're appeasing. You're making classic mistakes.

You will kick yourself in the butt months from now for not listening.

Taking action works. Ticking off your WW works.

Doing what you're doing doesn't.

Ignore at your own peril.

And I know what you're thinking, "they just don't have all the facts. They just don't know my WW and I and our unique situation."

You're not unique and you're not special and we have seen your story over and over again.

I was your story. I followed the policy of appeasement.

For starters, I don't have a drug problem I quit when all of this started, so don't assume things like that.

Secondly, I am not ok with being out of my home and away from my daughter, and my wife knows that. I did not make the choice, so I am not the primary one to blame, but if I was a responsible father and husband(which I am now, but wasn't then) than the conditions would not be set up for that decision. Now she needs to realise that she shook me up, therefore her decision served it's purpose and she needs to let me back.

Also, you don't know for sure that she is cheating, although it maybe a good assumption based upon some evidence, and others experiences, you don't know for sure.

I understand that moving back in would be the best thing for us. But if I demand that, she will flip out and say I am trying to be controling and get my way like I used to do. I want to wait untill she is at least more open to the idea. I know I need to spend more time with her, but forced time spent is not useful. She is definitly moving towards reconciliation, but is not emotionally ready for it yet, I am just praying she tears down her walls and gives me a chance to love her from up close rather from a distance. I can promote that by doing things that meet her emotional needs when I can. The little bit I have been doing this lately has brought her so much closer to me. I don't want to ruin the progress I have made.

Don't get me wrong though, I do apreciate your insight, and agree that moving in would be best for us(if I thought otherwise I would be an idiot). I just need to figure out how to be able to do it without it seeming like a sign of extreme disrespect towards her. She has just started reading Fall in Love, Stay in Love, and I hope that this will open her eyes to the truth that we can't fix this marriage by being separated.

Any ideas on how to be able to move in respectfully(without turning things into a battle that won't be helpful)?

I understand that. And if I do move in I want it to come across that way, but I don't know exactly how to go about it to promote that. I also want to make sure I can control my emotions so they don't make me act in ways I shouldn't when I confront her about the decision. I am thinking about giving it a time limit. A little time to draw her closer emotionally before I do this. I am starting school in a few weeks, to work towards a nursing degree, so I can support my family properly. I will have to minimize work once I start, and won't be able to rent a place of my own, so I am thinking about maybe moving in then since being at home then would be even more obviously the best thing for my family, short term and long term.

Yes, do it respectfully. Go home and say "hi honey, I am home!" Be very respectful.

You are under the illusion that appeasement at all cost will save your marriage. You believe that ENABLING will buy you a marriage. You are sorely mistaken.

You are an ENABLER, Sir.

You are not going to make it if you continue on that path, I assure you. Because if you enable someone whose goal is to destroy your marriage..........you will have a destroyed marriage.

If you want to save your marriage, then you have to knock off the pansy bullcrap and start defending your family. You have taken the easier, softer way at your expense and at your own childs expense.

The way to save your marriage is to stop being an enabler and start defending this assault on your marriage and your childs family.

You are not going to make it. You are looking for the conflict avoiders path and conflict avoiders don't make it. You want the easy peasy way so you don't have to lift a finger. You will get out of this what you put into it.

You put in nothing, that is what you get.

The decision would be assumed by her to be a selfish demand. Although in reality that is far from the truth, she will take it as such. I see my child very often, nearly everyday. She would tell me if she was hurt, and also would tell me if the man was there. She is open about everything.

What was I supposed to do, when my wife showed up at our door with her father and told me to leave?

By what you say about judge's views, does that mean I have a legal right to be in my home, even if I am not providing much money towards rent and bills?

All this info is helpful. I just need to be able to deal with this with a clear head, and not get into emotional outbursts that would harm us in the proccess.

of course I should try, I have been. Give me some practial suggestsions on how to go about doing this. Also you are right, I shouldn't trust her, and if she says anything of the sort I will let her know that.

I am putting much work into removing the many reasons(personal failures and bad habits) that I got myself into this. I am bairly coming to a place were it is showing drasticly in my life. I want her to be able to see this before I just move back in. I am seriously considering moving back in, and you all are definitly helping to push me in that direction. I do have a hard time with conflict, mostly because I don't handle it properly, that is why I am seeking advice on how to go about this wisely.

That is just silly. Going to one's own home is not a "selfish demand." You have not read the definition correctly. Kicking you out WAS a selfish demand.


Say no?

Wouldn't that be what a rational, sane person would do when asked unfairly to leave his own home? Do you even imagine for a second that your wife would abandon her own home and child just because you decided you wanted her to leave?


A person has a legal right to be in his own home. YES.

good point on what I could have done. I did say that I don't think my moving back would be a selfish demand, but she would interpret it as such. So I need to figure out how to make it obvious to her that I am doing it for my family, and not for my own personal gain or desire.

Do you see how your conflict avoidance has led to more conflict? It has not served you well.

When you say you have a hard time with conflict what does that mean exactly? You go crazy? You cry? You tremble with fear when she is angry at you? What exactly does that mean?


This is more conflict avoidance. She will not see what she does not want to see. And she will not want to see something that interferes with her affair so you will be waiting for a very long time if you continue to stay gone and continue to enable the affair. She booted you out so she could have an affair.

Abandoning your family like this has made the risk of divorce much higher. She is more likely to see your changes when you live at home anyway.

She will interpret it as INTERFERENCE in her affair and will not like it no matter what. You have no control over the "interpretations" of a wayward mind so don't even try. She will not like anything that interferes with her affair. COUNT ON IT.

You cannot make her understand or like your moving home. That is impossible. She will want you to continue enabling her affair. It is silly to imagine she will welcome the end of your enabling.

If you only do things she "likes" then you are doomed becasue her goal is to destroy your marriage. If you enable someone whose goal is the destruction of your marriage, you will get exactly that..................a destroyed marriage.

How about Hello sweetheart, I am home and your affair with OM will end right now or I will throw you out and change the locks on the door.

I will also expose your affair to everone you know, including your D in an age apropriate way.

Heaven forbid that you be disrespectful to a WW who has been boinging another OM for a least a year now. That might be concieved as controlling on your part, and you don't want to be be perceived that way.

I'm sure your WW's OM is quite pleased about that sitch as well.

Zambo, what the Hell is wrong with you???

Either you fight for this M or give it up.

Your choice!!

All blessings,
Jerry

Zambo,

Have YOU spoken to OMW?

Do you KNOW that she really knows about this A?

I have talked to her personaly.

I don't think that she wants to destroy this marriage. I think she doesn't know what she wants, she is so confused.

The affair has not been going on for a year, because she did not know the guy a year ago. Also it may not be going on at all anymore, or also may only be an emotional thing at this point(which is still very wrong obviously)

She is destroying the marriage, Zambo. And will succeed if you continue to help her in that regard. You are driving the crack head to the crack house.

Almost all affairs are emotional. That is the rule rather than the exception. Women rarely hop in bed unless there is an emotional attachment.

She is justifying her emotional attachment by saying that they are good friends who made a mistake. I told her that I am not comfortable with that friendship considering the mistake and emotions that certainly still linger.

I need to know how to handle this without seeming like the controling A-hole, and rather to come across as the loving caring husband. I am convinced I need to move in. I need details on how to do this wisely.

That is ok that she justifies her affair. Just YOU don't justify it. Call it an affair. She can call it a baloney sandwich if she wants, but you should call it what it is: an adulterous affair. A adulterer will always try to minimize their affair - everyone does this when they know they are wrong.

Just you dont enable her in that pursuit.


I would suggest you focus on doing the right thing instead of worrying about how you come across to a wayward wife. No matter what you do, she will not like any interference in her affair, so you need to abandon that pipe dream and focus on the necessary steps to save your marriage. IGNORE her words and focus on her actions.

The way you do this wisely is to go home. You walk in the door and tell her respectfully that you are moving back into your home. You love her and your child and you intend on staying there to work on your marriage.

You don't allow her to scare you off or to bait you into a fight. If she calls the police and they show up. You calmly tell the police you live there and intend on staying. This is your family.

Your wife will be furious at your interference in her affair. There is no way around it. But your marriage can survive her temporary anger, it can't survive this affair.

Thank you for your advice. I am going to spend some time in prayer about this. and as I said I am going to give it a short amount of time(about 2 weeks), and then act. in the meantime I will prepare myself mentally, emotionally and spiritually for this decision. Thank you for your prayer as well. Continue in that if you can. I will need it, as will my wife.

Zambo, my friend, you're very frustrating to read.

You're being given the answer to encourage you to do the things you need to do to recover your marriage. Marriage will not be recovered outside of the home.

Yes, you have a right to live in your home. You have a legal right to this.

Second, moving you out on your own free will was brilliant on her part. Now she can file for abandonment and sole legal custody. Brilliant on her end.

The courts don't care about your feelings. They care about your actions. You voluntarily left your home. End of story. No one forced you out. No one held a gun to your head. You left your wife and daughter of your own free will.

Third, your WW is playing a game called "cake eating" and is gaslighting you.

She gives you just enough hope to get you to comply so that you don't rock the boat.

She'll tell you it's still not going on. She'll give you the impression and the idea that there is hope.

She's a master manipulator and is playing on your emotions.

Again, I've played this game. I got played just like you.

Finally, you can't control your WW's thoughts or feelings. You breathing is a problem to her.

So taking decisive action to end the affair, move into your home, be a part of your daughter's life, and inform her in a strong and respectful manner that the MAN of the house is back, is going to stay, and WILL be a part of his daughter's life.

Anyone who doesn't like that can leave.

Your marriage can survive your wife's anger.

It can't survive an ongoing affair.

I've seen men like you get strung along for YEARS before they finally started clueing in. But it was too late at that point.

They were effectively removed from their children's lives with the woman having full custody.

It's a very, very common story and the men who don't do well in terms of father's rights are men like you and me who LET the wives get away with it.

Strong decisive action is attractive. Appeasement and fear are not.

She will rant and rave if you move back in. She will tell you that there is no chance in he77 that you can save things now.

It's because she's defending her affair. You're a threat now that isn't going to make it easy.

Appeasement DOES NOT WORK!

Well, Ive done it. And now more prayer is needed for my wife to come out of her hazy deceptions and see the logic and wisdom. She is trying to say that I am trying to manipulate and control by doing this. The funny thing is that she is really trying to manipulate me otherwise. She said that if I stay she will file for divorce, and if I leave our marriage will have a chance. What absurd logic. She was going to try to call the police, but my 3 year old daughter convinced her not to. I wish she would stop calling me selfish, and realize the selfishness of her ways, and ultimately think about the wishes of our daughter, who has expressed what she wants quite clearly. She wants her Dad back "all the time". Some good news is that my wife has not contacted the other man at all since this. I think she wants to keep him out of it since they agreed to his wife that he wouldn't be her counsel in our situation. At least she sees the logic in that.

Good job!

Now you can Plan A!

All the talk of filing for divorce is just that, talk!

Don't fall for it. Good job on manning up!

Now comes the really hard part, which is living with a possessed woman who hates you and spits venom!

But awesome job! She will continue the "we'll have a chance if you do as I say" bit for as long as she can.

If she mentions divorce, then simply say, "I'm won't talk divorce. I only talk marriage."

And don't for a second think that she isn't in contact with OM. Install a keylogger on your computer, get voice recorders for her car, and start monitoring cell phone bills.

You think she hasn't contacted OM, but trust us, she has.

Remember, we predicted her words. They are straight from the script.

You're doing the right thing.

GOOD JOB!!!!!!

Congratulations on pushing past your fears and doing the right thing!

I wouldn't be so certain about her A being over. It's probably just gone underground now that you have moved back home.

So start spying.

Click here----> SPYING 101

Here's Mr. W's Do and Don't do list..

DOs

1. Act Happy
2. Get a life (new activities, etc.)
3. repeat over and over..."I will make it"
4. Actively LISTEN....keep conversations at "to the point...small talk" ...don't blow it up beyond the waywards current comfort zone
5. Tend to Agree (Thank you for your truthfulness, It seems that way, you have a point)
6. Expand your social relationships (Being especially aware of your own vulnerability and keeping sharing and time with opposite sex relationships to an absolute minimum)
7. Get sexy (gym, new clothes, etc)
8. Focus on your strengths and Positives...don't put yourself down verbally or constantly go over what you did wrong
9. Accept Uncertainty (Do your best today and let God take care of tommorrow)

DON'Ts

1. Repeatedly say "I love you"
2. Ask questions that don't have answers yet
3. Criticize, complain, whine or nag
4. Say, "I've changed"....allow the wayward spouse to simply judge your actions
5. Argue, Reason or Plead
6. Don't get family or friends overly involved in recovery (notice I said "in recovery", EXPOSURE to bust up an active affair IS ESSENTIAL and EXPOSURE to the OP's spouse is an absolute MUST)
7. Act helpless or depressed
8. Discuss morality, invoke God or Dr. Laura type babble
9. Suggest marital counseling (must be the waywards idea)
10. Tell them continually "we need to work on the relationship"
11. GIVE UP

And here's Pep's Carrot and stick part of Plan A..


The carrot of Plan A

Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Stop lovebusting behaviors.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.


The stick of Plan A

Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

Not apologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financal security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.

I know she is still talking to him. Im also pretty sure she is seeking his advise on how to handle my moving back in. I am letting this be for now, since I have already told her how I feel about it. We are going to bring this up to our counseler soon, and I expect her to listen to his advice more willingly than mine. I know that he will give good advice, since he relys heavily on harleys matierials and concepts.

thanks for the advice. I will look over all of it often to help keep my behavior in check. thank you.

Zambo,

Doing nothing is not the answer.

Actions get respect from a WW, not inaction.

First off, let her know, calmly, that you are going to be here and be a father to your children.

You then let her know that ALL contact with OM must end immediately. If there is no contact, then you are going to take steps to end the contact.

What do you do?

You cancel her cell phone. She can pay that herself.

You put a password on your home computer that only you know and it must be through you that all computer use is turned on.

Now you need to expose and a confrontation with the other man is certainly called for. You contact him and you let him know that he is to stop contacting your wife immediately. Tell him that if he continues to contact your wife that there will be consequences he won't like.

Leave it vague. Don't threaten him with any physical harm. Let his imagination run wild.

But this isn't a bluff. Consequences for him include an alienation of affection law suit, which may be valid in your state.

You should also expose to OM's wife or girlfriend.

Your job now is to end the affair.

That means ticking off your WW because you are shutting off her source of her "fix". How does a crack addict react to taking his crack pipe? They don't take kindly to it.

So now is the time for action, not inaction.

You took a huge step in coming home. You protected your rights as a father, at a minimum and have taken away her ability to file "abandonment" against you.

You need to contact his wife and let her know that your wife and him are in contact.

She can be your best ally in ending this affair.

Need some more details. They work together?

How do you know they are still in contact?

Have you been spying?

That means putting a keylogger on your computer, tracking cell phone usage on the internet, checking her phone when she's asleep, putting recorders around where you can catch her talking to OM.

Here's another thought for you: counseling is useless if she's in an active affair.

Any contact at all with this man means she's in an affair. ANY.

I have already done most of these things. I know most people here don't think I should believe her when she tells me that the physical relationship lasted a single day, and that after that they spent a month and a half with no contact. Now the excuse I am getting from all of them including the other mans wife is that they are only friends and want to continue that with much less contact than in the past. If I tell her what MUST be done, she will retreat from me, she needs to hear it from other people. She doesn't respect my authority right now, so it only hurts to try to force it. The best I can do is say Im staying here, and be here for my daughter and treat my wife well without being overbearing and demanding.

zambo, this is fogbabble from a wayward mind. And you are here repeating it as if it is sane. That is scary. Let me assure you it is not. They are not "friends." They are having an affair and it silly to say otherwise. One does not abandon their marriage and kick her husband out over a "friendship" with a girl named Sally.

If his wife is that gullible, then I would get her the evidence of their romance by taping her phone calls or placing a keylogger on her computer and showing the OMW the goods.

Have you spoken to the OMW YOURSELF and heard her repeat the above fogbabble? Or is this fogbabble that was passed on from your wife? It is very rare in these situations that ALL the betrayed spouses are just as insane as the waywards. Usually there is at least ONE sane person in the game.


I think you can do better than just sitting there like a lump on a log when your family desperately needs a leader, not a doormat. I would suggest politely asking her to show you and your DD some respect and take her affair conversation out of your family home. Ask her to not conduct her affair in front of you and your child.

It is disrespectful and hurtful. No woman respects a man that is a doormat, zambo, and sitting there idly while she carries on her affair in front of you and your child is not the act of leader who is worthy of respect. It will cause her to disrespect you MORE. If you don't act respectfully, you can't very well expect her to respect you.

Secondly, women do not respect men they can run over and our love is very contingent upon the respect we feel. So, I would not demand. I would ask her - respectfully and politely - to kindly take her AFFAIR [use that word, because that is what it is!] conversations out of the presence of her husband and child.

Have you had a face to face conversation with the OM?

Zambo,

My friend, you're foggy and paralyzed with fear.

You need to speak to OM's W personally.

Staying "friends" at any level is simply unnacceptable.

We're all giving you the answers of what you need to do.

Inaction and saying that you're "forcing things" isn't the answer.

Do not believe a single word they say.

You need to confront OM.

You need to expose to their work.

WW needs to quit her job and end whatever it is that is keeping her in contact with OM.

What state do you live in?

I have spoken with him twice and told him to stay away. And have spoken with his wife twice as well. All face to face. I live in AZ

wife is that gullible, she knows about the romance in the past. and it is not happening now. there is still emotional attachment though, and everyone is being led to believe it is just a friendship attachment.

and I do have unknown access to email, not to much is said there.

If she is still in contact with OM, then counseling is a waste of time. Dr. Harley readily acknowledges that. If your counselor relies on Harley's principles, then you should expect him to also insist WW to cease contact. If she won't,then any further counseling will be pointless - WW will only use it to focus on how you screwed up your marriage.

You should go with your gut feelings. If she is in the fog, and has "fallen in love" with OM, then you'd be amazed at what she is capable of doing, including lying, deceiving and cheating on you and your daughter. If she is in the fog, she is not, at least for now, anywhere near the same person you knew before. And, given the fact they both insist on seeing each other as "friends", even though they know how both you and OM's wife are uncomfortable with it, is evidence that they are in the fog.

Zambo,

We've all been in your shoes and we've all told ourselves what you're telling yourself. Yet you know, in your gut, that you're being lied to.

You WANT to believe, but your logic says otherwise.

Sorry, bro, but you've been cheated on. She's likely had sex with OM. She's still in contact with him and they aren't just friends.

There's things you need to do to end the affair. You now just have to make the tough decision to do it. You did great with moving back in. Now you have to continue the progress you've made and take steps to end the affair.

Remember, we're rooting for you. We want you to succeed. This isn't some silly game and cheap source of entertainment for us.

But we know what works and what doesn't and you're definately on that path of "doesn't work".

This is an AFFAIR, not a "friendship," zambo. They can call it a baloney sandwich if they want, but it is an affair and is still a danger to your marriage. An affairee has the same wayward mentality as an alcoholic and will say whatever she has to say to keep her booze. This is why you cannot ever take the WORD of a wayward, but must go by their ACTIONS. NEVER GO BY THEIR WORDS.

Counseling is a waste of time when one spouse is in an affair, as Galoot pointed out. Your marriage can't recover while they are still in touch. That won't happen until contact ends and she withdraws from him.

I know this is an affair, I was just saying that "friendship" is what they are arguing it is. Whenever I suggest anything otherwise, I get told that that is just my "opinion". Im just the jealous husband to them. Lately I have been telling her just that, "I am jealous of your so-called friend. I wish you esteemed your relationship with me as more important than your relationship with him."
The counselor is going to find out about this next session, in which we also are going to talk about my moving back in. I am praying that she will respect the counselors athority, education, and experience.

Good. Except I would have said it this way, "I am jealous of your so-called friend. I wish you esteemed your MARRIAGE with me as more important than your so called friendship with him."

He is not a friend to your M.

I would tell her this often.


Let us know how this goes.

In the meantime, why don't you get a couple of voice activated recorders that record for a long time? Hide one under the driver's seat in her car.

And hide another one or two in the home where she sits and talks on the phone.

See what you can pick up from them.

Also, Zambo, how is your Plan A coming along? Are you watching your LBs?

Have you identified which EN's are your WW's top three?

You said that you were "not providing proper financial support".... are you now?

Well my major LB for her is disrespectful judgements, and it seems as if anytime I mention anything regarding the OM that she accuses me of a disrespectful judgement. Or even today I said, "Don't focus on cleaning the house, just pay attention to your daughter today while I am at work." Her response was "Don't tell me what to do". Wow! I rephrased it into "Don't worry about the house today, I'll work on stuff when I get home that way you can spend time with your daughter." she liked that way of saying it better, but I think she is really testing me and my words in this situation.

Her top 3 En's are Conversation(which she won't let me meet since she doesn't want to talk to me), Financial Support(I still can't provide it since I am going to school starting Mon. to work on a nursing degree so I can provide adequetly in the future. which is one reason I need to be here at home, so I can make it through school easier, and provide what support I can such as groceries, instead of waisting it on rent somewhere else, and food for myself) and Family Commitment(which is the main reason I moved back in). Ironicly her 5th EN is honesty and openness which she is not willing to be with me.

Talking about OM is not an LB. Saying that you want her to stop seeing him and interacting with him is not an LB. It's a boundary.

Are you spying?

I have my eyes everywhere they can be, and know where she is most of the time. she acts like I have no right to set up any bounderies.

Don't let her twist Dr. Harley's program back on you. She is trying to redefine "disrespectful judgment" to suit her. DJ does not mean bringing up any subject or topic that might annoy her. You're part of that marriage, and you have a right to bring up and discuss those issues with which you are uncomfortable.

DJ goes to the manner in which you discuss the issue. If you said to her, "If you weren't such a slut, you'd stop seeing him," yea, that would be a DJ. But to politely but assertively tell her about your discomfort with her behavior is acceptable conflict resolution. Avoiding lovebusters does not mean avoiding any disagreeable issues. It means avoiding demands, disrespect and anger when discussing them.

That is not an example of a disrespectful judgment, but an example of being MANIPULATED into silence by your wayward wife, something you must AVOID. When it comes to her adulterous affair, it is important that you a) TALK ABOUT IT and b) use accurate languance. It is her affair and he is her OTHER MAN.

Bastardizing the English language to accommodate wrongdoing is not helpful to your wife, to you, or to your marriage. Words have meanings and it is not helpful to dress up words to help a wayward hide truth.

I just finished reading "Love must be tough" by Dobson. Does anyone have any ideas or tips on how to impliment his plan correctly. My issues are how not to come across too soft yet also not come across too intense and make her feel trapped. Also where to back off and where to stand firm.

6 days since I let her know Im staying here for good, and 10 days since I've actually been staying at my home!!! We are going to see the counselor tomorrow to talk about our situation more. My daughter is so happy and excited to see me home. She keeps asking my wife if and why she doesn't want me here. She is a smart girl and wants to see her parents in love and raising her together.

Im very confused as what to do now. I'll try to make the story short, please ask for any details. I left for work early this morning, but came back home shortly to find my wife having coffee with the OM. Once he left I told her how I felt about it. Later on in the day I called OM's wife and let her know what I stumbled upon. (she may have already known) I didn't speak to her but left a message. A few minutes before our counseling session was scheduled I got a text from my wife saying that she wasn't coming. I asked her why and got no reply, called her and got no answer, so I decided to go to her workplace. I found her there and she told me I had no right to be there and had to leave. I talked to her boss and he said the same thing. I also got to talk to the other man as he was leaving work, and he played his little act of deception with me, even going so far as to make himself out to be the good guy and hero and protector of my wife from myself. As if I would ever hurt any woman, let alone the woman I love. This wolf/snake deceiver actually had the guts to call me a wolf and accuse me of a grand deception. So crafty this snake. Anyway I left to go to class, and was contacted by an officer that was called by my wife or her workplace. He politely said don't attempt to enter the workplace again, I agreed to that. He also said I might want to start paying rent if I wanted to try to stay at our home. I told him I would try. Once I got back to my home later, my wife and daughter were nowhere to be found. I got a message from my wife saying that my daughter is safe and don't try to contact them. I don't know what to do, I want to know when I will be able to see my daughter again.

Well damn Zambo, I dont really know what to say except I'm sorry and I hope it all works out for you. That is a pretty rough update. Maybe things will cool down in a day or two.

zambo, just stay right there. They will have to come home eventually. She cannot legally keep you from your DD. You have caused great conflict in her affair and she is unhappy about it and is trying to scare you off. She is also accustomed to manipulating you, so if you don't go along with that game, she will realize you are not going to be manipulated anymore.

Keep calling the OMW and make sure she knows you caught the OM in your home. The next time he is there, I would suggest escorting him to the door and calling the police on him. Get a police record of this adulterer entering your homse without your permission.

I wish MEDC were still around, I'd like to know if police do this kind of thing.

I wonder if it was someone else pretending to be an officer.

When you say the officer "contacted" do you mean in person or on the phone?

Were you served w/ a RO?

The officer contacted me on he phone from a restricted number, which they always do.

RO?

Restraining order.

That phone call sounds bogus to me.

Why would an officer care if you helped pay the rent?

It almost sounds to me like he (whoever he was) was letting you know your WW was moving out and that you would now be responsible for the rent.

well there would be no reason for a RO. And if that is the case I won't pay it, and go to live wherever my daughter is.

Any comments that are NOT assuming the worst? not that its bad to do so.

She just got pi$$ed of and will probably be home in just a couple days.

Apparently she told him about how I had recently "forced" myself back into the house, yet I wasn't paying rent.

hopefully true.

I was just trying to find out if you had actually seen an officer.

I agree totally w/ Mel, you have upset their A greatly! They are trying to frighten you! Intimidate you.

If they had a better plan, they'd carry it out.

They don't.

Your WW and DD will be back. Try not to worry.

If an officer calls you again, be sure to ask for his name and badge number.

I agree with Marsh - if you have his name I'd go further and call his station and see if they received a complaint about you. Then I would complain about someone from your wife's work impersonating an officer.

good call!!

well, there is only one station here in town. so I could call them and find out.

Do it!

Find out if there was a complaint made against you.

I think it was real, but I will call in the morning to make sure.

If she does try to keep my daughter from me, then what should I do? or if they decided to move(which I don't think happened)?

Zambo,

Here come the 2x4s. When the he77 are you going to wakeup, grow a pair, and take some serious action to protect your rights as a father?

I've advised you about the danger you are in and you're not getting it.

This isn't some stupid game. You're in serious danger of losing your rights as a father.

I commended you for moving back in. Great move. So now she's gone off and done the "in a battered shelter" thing.

This is typical crap that women pull on good men to make themselves out to be victims. You should have been on the phone like yesterday with a lawyer.

Time to file for custody and demand that your daughter be returned to the marital home. Time to play frickin hardball.

Only growing a pair of cajones will get you results with your WW.

And why the he77 were you not throwing this man out with the fear of God that he wasn't going to have a pleasant exit if he ever showed his face in your home again?

Time to man up, zambo. You're in big danger of being painted as some psycho abuser and you'll be lucky to get supervised visitation with your DD over false abuse claims. They're coming.

Now you need to contact a lawyer, like today. Like as soon as you're done reading this.

This is no joke and you're in danger and are oblivious to it because you're in denial and hoping she's going to wakeup. Well she's not.

Time for you to wake up!

I have not thought for one moment that this is a joke, or a game.

I am wondering how it will look to the court when I am barely getting myself back on track. I just started school and will be living on student loans, and 18 hrs a week of work.

plus how will it look to the court if I threaten this man? he most likely will testify that I am a violent person. I am going to let him know that if he comes to my house again, that he will be escorted out by the police.

Zambo,

You would be WELL SERVED to take pom's advice to heart and ACT on it.

He has the WISDOM that comes from EXPERIENCE ... you do not!!!

I've read some of your thread and I have to tell you ... you are not helping yourself ... in fact, its just the opposite ... your (in)actions are actually damaging your future.

It appears that you tend to over-think things until you come up with an excuse to justify doing NOTHING ... and then convince yourself that doing NOTHING is in your best interests. Self-delusion is a powerful force for many BH's to overcome.

Time to step back and REALISTICALLY evaluate the situation and how successful you have been doing things YOUR way.

I have been taking the advice given here. But it wouldn't be wise to act too hastily. I have made many mistakes from doing just that.

... and just WHO is advising you to act hastilly???

pom advised you to man up and lawyer up ... and you are doing neither ... in fact, you are actively AVOIDING CONFLICT.

SORRY, but it doesn't work that way ... you are in the middle of CONFLICT up to your eyeballs ... you can stand up to the conflict and protect yourself or you can be run over by it ... its your call.

Zambo,

You are in a much better position now that you moved home. At least you can't be accused of abandoning your DD.

Definitely get yourself a lawyer.

What state do you live in?

Put it this way:

You've had war declared on you and you're still in denial it's happening.

The court doesn't care about you "just getting started". Are you employed and is it steady work? Good enough.

Put it this way, excluding my house I'm over $60K in debt. Throw in my should and it's about $260K. The court didn't care about that stuff. Most of the debt outside the house is legal bills.

My fiancial situation had no part in this.

Not only that, but a lawyer will advise you once he takes a look at your situation, but you are being setup as an abuser that your wife and child need protection from. Now you have her setting you up with witnesses from her work about how you came there threatening her.

I know you don't feel you have. But she is setting you up!

Lawyer up now!

There is no harm in talking to one. None. Just talking to one doesn't mean that you're filing for divorce and going to court, but you are in grave danger and don't realize it.

Trust me as a man who has been through it and has seen your story play out on this forum numerous times.

How do waywards lie?

My own personal example:

My exww claimed I was taking showers with my 4 year old daughter and got a therapist in an attempt to set me up for abuse charges or inappropriate behavior.

She also claimed I was putting my daughter in a crib as punishment and would force her to stay in there till she peed herself.

Guess what. I NEVER DID THESE THINGS!

So lawyer up and be prepared to deflect charges and protection orders because they will come!

You need to file for custody and get an ex parte order that your DD stays in the marital home until there is a custody hearing. That's different than divorce.

But even filing for divorce is a smart legal move since you can always withdraw it! Mortarman did it. He had it drafted and ready to go. His wife was a fogged out wayward. He got full custody of his kids.

Wake up! Lawyer up or you will be a casualty of the system because they will give her the benefit of the doubt with abuse charges unless you act proactively!

that is how I interpreted you saying that I am overthinking things and doing nothing. I have been taking action. I have been confronting many parties in this. I may not be taking the action that is advised by you and pom yet. I do realize it is good advise. I especially need to do that now, since my wife just gave me an order of protection today. It was full of lies and I went to the court and filed for a hearing to contest it. I am going to get a lawyer tomorrow, and see about filing for custody. The conflict has greatly increased at this point, and mostly because I have stood up for my family and against the enemy.

Arizona♦

I'm sorry, Zambo.

You are not the first BH to have this happen to.

What did she say you did?

Today, she got an order of protection against me. She is also filing for divorce. I found that out from the court. I am going to get a lawyer and file for custody, even though it is very likely that I will lose that battle. But it is better that I stand up and take charge and do it, since it will look good in the long run. There are false charges in the order of protection, and I am going to fight those as well. ♦

Yes, an order of protection = a RO.

What were the lies, Zambo? What did she say you did?

not much, I came home from class to make a sandwich for lunch and saw her car there, and her dads truck. I didn't know where she had been since last night, and where my daughter had been. When I came in the house, she told me that I needed to leave, and I told her that I did not. She told me a few more times, and I told her that I was going to stay in my home. She then went to her purse and pulled out the court papers that she handed to me. I read them as she called the police. I said I wanted to talk to them, and she ignored me. I left and then went to the court to discuss the issues I had with the lies in the documents. I was told to document things well, and bring up the truth in court.

Did not leave her workplace after being asked.

That is not true. I respected her bosses words saying that I couldn't enter the building. I was never asked to leave the property, just not to go back into the building. If I had been asked to leave the property I would have. I left at my own will after talking to the OM as I caught him on his way to his car. Even my convo with him was in a respectful tone and volume although I made things quite clear to him.


Also on the order was that I called friends and family numerous times.

that is true, but was after I got back from school hours later to find my wife and child gone, and was trying to find out where they ended up. of course Im gonna call friends and family to see if they know anything.

Also stated was that I had not been living there for 9 months and had not been paying rent.

True, but not stated that I had been forcefully asked by her to leave, and therefore put in a situation where I could not reasonably pay rent.

And the final thing stated was that I moved myself back into the house without her consent.

True, but what does that have to do with her protection?♦

You didn't need her consent to move back into your own home.



Not a thing.

Neither does calling friends and family.


What happened when you went to see your WW? Did you raise your voice? Did she?

She refused to talk to you and asked you to leave, then what?

Her boss came out asked you to leave too?

Neither of us raised our voices. She asked me to leave and I said ok but I want to talk to your boss first, and he happened to walk by right then so me and him went outside. He told me that I was not allowed in the building and I told him that I would respect that. I asked him about affairs at the workplace, and he told me that without it relating to "chain of command" there is nothing that can be done about it. I got done talking with him and left but ran into OM before that and talked with him before leaving. The cops were called after I was gone.

You'll be able to get that RO dropped.

Get yourself a good pitbull lawyer and go for custody.

Do you have family who can help you?

Zambo,

I know I've dished out 2x4s but I truly and honestly feel for you. I understand the shock and disbelief you're experiencing.

First, rest easy. Unless you're not divulging details we don't know, nothing you said justifies a restraining order. You moved back into the marital home. She is upset because she has an ongoing affair.

Do you have any text messages or emails where she admits to doing things with OM?

This will be fairly transparent to a judge when he/she sees it.

The rent is a joint responsibility. Your marital home is your marital home.

Unless she produces witnesses that will testify that you were threatening people and/or not leaving when asked to leave, then she has nothing.

Read shockandbetrayed's thread. His soon to be xw tried the same garbage on him and it didn't hold up.

I have a file I'd like to send you. Can you contact justuss and let him know that you're ok with me contacting you offline? He'll give me your email with your permission and I can forward you a file that will help you a lot.

Zambo, seriously, there is no "being nice" with a WW. This is full out war now that you're entering the custody fight arena.

The men who do well are the ones who don't settle and don't accept the scraps of settlement offers that will be given to you.

Remember, your stance is as if you have already won custody. You must talk about having your wife get visitation with your daughter, not the other way around.

If you're thrown out of your home, then make sure you have a place for your DD to sleep in, a room for her, toys, etc.

If you show you're a good dad then you will get, at a minimum, a shared physical custody arrangement. And if you move near her you're likely to get 50/50.

Now, what evidence do you have about adultery?

Can you hire a PI to get solid evidence of adultery? Is Arizona a fault state? Can marital misconduct be considered?

This is the time when you have to set your emotions aside and start strategizing in a major, major way.

Arizona is a one party state when it comes to recording conversations. That means that you are able to record them legally. So get yourself a recorder and be prepared to catch your WW in all her glory. Get her to rant and rave at you. Get her to tell you you can't see your daughter.

Always be calm and cool in the recordings and calm and cool with EVERYONE. This will work in your favor because she can claim you're some sort of grave threat or danger or irrational, but if people see otherwise, they will doubt her and not you.

Let her be the emotional and irrational one.

Read Mortarman's thread as well. His WW actually lived with OM for many months and she filed for custody and LOST each time. He was very smart in how he handled his case. He documented EVERYTHING and every interaction with WW. He hired a PI to get evidence of an affair. He put major fault on her.

He won custody of his kids, which was the catalyst to getting her fog to lift. They are together now and have a 1 yo son that came after they reconciled, but recovery has been anything but easy.

But YOU must now start thinking and acting.

Let me send you that file to get you rolling.

Remember, there is no compromise when it comes to your kid. You have a right to be a part of her life and no self entitled WW can stop you.

The law protects men who fight and are good fathers and show themselves to be good fathers.

But they can't do anything about you just giving things away.

A couple of other thoughts:

Not paying rent is not justification for getting a restraining order. There's nothing threatening about that.

Rent is a joint responsibility when you're married. She's just as responsible as you for it.

The other stuff is too fuzzy to warrant a RO and won't hold up unless witnesses come forward to testify that you are and were a threat.

The burden of proof of a threat is on her.

And you had every right to move into the marital home. When they ask you why you moved back in you say, "because we are married and that's my home and she was the one who wanted me to leave. I missed my daughter too much and didn't see her enough and she didn't let me see her enough."

Keep in mind that she didn't force you to leave. She didn't hold a gun to your head. So your argument that she forced you to leave won't hold water. But saying that she wanted you to leave and you hoped that the space would help you fix your marriage is understandable.

But you're married and her arguments are those of a woman who doesn't understand the law. The law doesn't say, "oh, it's a woman asking for stuff. Ok, give it to her. She doesn't want her husband to live with her and a restraining order should be issued."

That's not how it works. SHE is the one who needs to leave the marital home. Not you.

Demand that you stay in your home and that she move out and that an order be given that keeps the child in her home.

What may work against you is that you did leave.

Lawyer up and be prepared to fight the most horribly emotionally wrenching fight you've ever fought. Remember that this isn't your wife. It's a demon who wishes to keep you from your daughter and you should fight her accordingly.

And be prepared for emotional manipulations on her part. There will be attempts by her to "lets talk this out".

Hold your ground. She will promise you plenty of time with your DD if you cooperate. She will promise you things that will sound good.

But she'll be lying to get her way. I was promised stuff too.

Tell her to put her promises in writing if she makes any and you'll review them with your lawyer.

The law recognizes formal and legal agreements. They don't care about verbal ones because it gets into a he said/she said thing.

We're in your corner, bud. Hang in there. You have a very experienced core of men here who have been through this battle and can help you with the downfalls and dangers.

I have no evidence of her adultery besides her confession of it, and the OMs confession of it.

it won't let me send a private message, so here: jmbsmd@hotmail.com

where is shockandbetrayed's thread?

Zambo,

I think my WW moved to Arizona last week

From my experience, you are probably freaked out of your mind about the protection order. Don't be. Find the best attorney in the area that specializes in this type of thing. Most important, be HONEST with the good and the bad that you did when you first meet with him. A good attorney will SPIN the bad - you are a betrayed husband who resorted to confronting the OM with words, not fisticuffs. Let your attorney do the work for you. If you go to court, here's what you need to do:

- dress like a GQ model
- NO FACIAL HAIR!
- Get a hair cut if needed
- if you wear contacts, wear your glasses that day. It will hide any squinting
- show up with as much documentation as you can that DISPROVES the allegations. If there are no documents, bring witnesses.
- everytime I showed up at court, all of the clerks and bailifs thought I was an ATTORNEY. It shows RESPECT for the process. You would be amazed at what people wear to court.


NOt sure about your state but since she filed for divorce, it should put an injunction on moving the kids until custody is worked out. Not a good strategic move on her part if she is going to play games with the kids. If she hasn't filed for divorce, YOU DO IT and file under grounds of Adultry!

Also, FILE FOR AN EX PARTE FULL CUSTODY ORDER NOW! While you are at it, file for Spousal support and child support. In most states, you don't need an attorney to do this!

At the very least, it will make her mad. HER GETTING MAD HELPS YOU! Keep your cool! Better yet, keep your cool with a tape recorder in your pocket when she gets mad!

The not paying rent for the home for 9 months and then moving back in may be a problem!!! If its not your home and you are renting it but she is paying for it....can work against you.

Arizona is a community property state. Do you guys own your home or are you buying it or renting? Whose names are on the deed/lease? I think you can beat the PO because she'll have a hard time proving that your dangerous.

FILE FOR CUSTODY NOW! Do it before she does. Has she actually filed for divorce yet? You won't be able to file for custody if she has, but you can contest it in the divorce.

she has not yet, but has the paperwork. we are renting. I was planning on paying FEB rent. too late now.

should I file for custody? or divorce? or both? I prefer not to file for divorce.

also. If I buy a carseat today, I could go pick up my daughter from preschool. Is that a good idea?

The RO says that I can only contact her via email. I emailed her asking to see my daughter today, and have had no reply. If my daughter is with me, does she have to email me about seeing her, or can she call me and ask that I bring her back home?

Right now you need to be asking these things of a lawyer.

Should you file? Yes. Should you file for divorce? That's up to your state. Some treat custody as one and the same.

Right now you should follow the RO until you have it revoked. If it says you don't see your DD, then don't see the DD.

You want to appear like a man who plays by the rules.

If the RO says nothing about your DD, you could legally take your DD, move to Alaska, and file for divorce there. (I'm exagerating, but you get the idea).

But lawyer up like right now.

A RO will be a stain on your record and you must fight it and you must lawyer up immediately.

You're wanting to fight, but you're not fighting smart. We can give you all the free advice in the world, but a lawyer knows the law of your state and how to shoot these things down.

Read the guide I gave you. It explains the advantages of filing first and I think you should if your goal is to get custody or protect your rights as a father.

But the immediate concer is the RO.

Get it dismissed so you can go back to your home.

What about OM's wife?

What about her accounts such as email? Cell phone records? What spying have you done?

OM's wife believes the OM's lies. I saw a lawyer today, although I am not so sure about him. He doesn't really see me as being able to get back in the home. And he doesn't think it is a good idea to try to file first(he says it doesn't matter who files first) He thinks I should try to settle on a parenting schedule via email with my wife and avoid the court if at all possible. I am being told to try to find a place to live asap, one that my daughter can be at. But I don't want to get myself stuck in a lease since I really should be at my house. Also me filing for divorce is not really an option since Arizona is a no fault divorce state, so they don't care if there was adultery at all. Also the lawyer thinks that it wouldn't make a difference who files first. hmm..... Im confused.

well since adultery is not really important in the states eyes, my spying doesn't really matter much, but I don't have too much to go on. Yes she calls him and emails him, but there isn't anything that incriminating anyway.

Find another lawyer.

Google "father's rights arizona" or whatever city you live in and find an attorney that is going to light a fire under her butt and get you back in your home.

It's YOUR home!

Ill see what I can find.

hey pom can you send that info to shannzambonini@gmail.com I am having problems with the other address. I don't know if you tried sending it yet or not, but I havn't got anything.

I found this site. http://www.arizonafathersrights.com/
seems good.

They recommend defending yourself(using their tools, and with their knowledgable support base) unless you can find the right lawyer. I'm going to look for another lawyer today and also look more into this group.

she still isn't responding or else stalling with questions to my email requests to see my daughter. I am thinking of filing for legal separation to initiate the custody case. i need a good lawyer though first.

Don't get crazy with the emails. You can look crazy if you email her too many times in a day.

One or two requests to talk to your daughter a day is ok.

I would only recommend defending yourself if you're a really smart person and at ease in front of others. I otherwise would not do it. Even if you have those qualities, I'd talk to a lawyer.

Divorce lawyers are a dime a dozen. Use that father's group to see if there are any that anyone recommends.

Im pretty sure that they don't recomend any. They seem to not trust lawyers much. Said if you have one they will help you deal with him.

Family law is one of the only types of law where I really think a father has a shot to go in there and simply say, "I'm a good dad. Can I please get to see them as much as she sees them."

You then show that you're a good dad. Show how you have a good home for them, a steady job with predictable hours, and a safe car to get them around.

Everything else, in total complete honesty, really falls into a consideration for the judge.

But that's the impression from my experience. Our judge didn't seem to care about little stuff that was nitpicky and not important.

He cared about how the kids could be taken care of and see both parents regularly.

So keep yourself straight and honest and things will be ok.

Don't email your ex for anything other than a request to see your daughter once or twice a day or something relating to her care.

Don't use your daughter as an excuse to talk to your ex.

These are learned things. It takes time to get to the point where you understand what needs to be talked about and what really doesn't matter.

In other words you learn to operate without the input or feedback from your wife.

I do believe you should get a lawyer, though.

all of the ones I talked to are really expensive. I wonder if it is really worth it.

I certainly don't want to even try risking talking to my wife. Since I can email her, I try to slip some of my thoughts in a bit here and there, but keep them mostly business. I have had my daughter today, but am bummed that I have to take her back soon with a police standby. This is so frustrating, my daughter wants to stay the night with me and I have to tell her no.

I completely, completely understand. It's horrible. I've been there.

But be cheerful for her and let yourself break down once you're out of sight.

All lawyers are expensive, but you should hire one to defend this RO at a minimum.

Did you read shockbetrayed's thread yet? He put it here for you.

weren't you gonna send me something via email?

I understand the one or two requests, but what if she responds and we need to have a few emails of correspondence? is it fine as long as I keep my requests to a bare minimum?

Saw a lawyer today. He is going to help fight this. My wife has now filed for divorce and is filing for joint custody, but her request is for me to have my daughter every other weekend. Absolutely uncalled for, and I absolutely will not stand for it.
I saw my daughter today, and she was so bummed that she couldn't stay with me. The OOP needs to be stopped or else it looks bad on me in the custody battle.

Every other weekend is unnacceptable and shot down by every single study regarding the subject.

50/50 minimum.

The more brutal you make her realize this is going to be the better.

YOU AREN'T GOING WITHOUT A FIGHT!

I'm glad you found a lawyer.

I'll send you the file when I go back to work. The file is there unless Mr. W can forward it to you to the email you posted.

Mr. W, if you're reading this, could you send him the 101 file?

Thanks!

This is almost as good as what I was going to send you:

http://www.dumpyourwifenow.com/2007/05/14/divorce-self-defense-101/

Thanks, Ill check it out. Also another issue, that I don't know if I brought up before, I think I did actually, was that I had got arrested last march, and sentenced last Oct. It was a misdemeanor charge for marijuana. I cleaned up my act right after getting arrested. Anyway, today I found out that the judge doing the custody trial will be the same one that sentenced me in Oct. Also to add to the irony, the other judge who will be doing the order of protection trial is the judge that married me and my wife. hmm.......

That stinks.

But smoking weed doesn't make you violent.

I'm glad you cleaned up your act.

Don't know what to tell you about that one. I've never touched anything illegal.

Barely drink as it is.

How recent was this?

The arrest was last march, and the sentencing was in oct. I will hopefully have my fines payed off by next friday. as well as having my psychological screening done, to show(as if some psychologist can prove this) that I do not have a substance abuse problem.

I got this from the other thread with MG. Number 2 here was my wife's response to the tee.

I really want my relationship with my wife restored. But I need to stop pursuing her for right now, and focus on what is going to be best for my daughter. I hope with the right plan and right actions that some day in the future I can have my wife back. I am going to try to read what I can about it in the meantime. I also need to focus on school and not let that suffer.

thanks for all of the help so far. I'm gonna keep on fighting.

Zambo, can you give us some background info? What do you do for a living? What are you going to school for? How long have you been married? What are your ages?

Zambo,

Wishing isn't going to do much for you. Neither is hope.

Action will. Hard action with a lawyer.

Since I'm not sure you read this, here it is. It was written by someone else and it is very, very true:

I am your instructor, Mr. Jensen. I am not a lawyer, consult one. Anything I say here may have its mileage vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. My qualifications are two divorces, one in which I did everything wrong and got reemed, and one in which I did everything right and came out with my skin relatively intact.

Let’s start with the fundamentals. First. Decide right now if you want to be a winner or a loser. You are about to enter the Lion Pit. Get used to it, grow up and accept it. Any misconceptions you had about morality, right and wrong, and justice in the Justice System are bunk. All such things are absolutely irrelevant. Your sole concern is legal, and illegal. If it goes to a judge, you are not facing Solomon who will try to establish something fair. That is the job of a mediator. The judge will decide who is the winner, and who is the loser. If you don’t want to be a winner, take their offer right now, and get out of my class. I guarantee it will be far more generous that what the judge decides. The court is NOT your friend.

Number two. I want you to say something right now: “She will never do that to me, she would never be like that.” If you wish to paraphrase, be my guest. I’ll wait.

Done?

Good. Now, let that be the last time you ever say that. This is not the nice, sweet girl you married. This is the b*tch that is divorcing you. Grow up. Accept it. Right now she is plotting how to get you. And probably has been. Either be prepared to treat her as your mortal enemy, or confess that you really didn’t want to be a winner after all. She will treat you as such, I guarantee you. Don’t let anyone shame you with words like “Not sinking to her level.” While you should avoid illegal and unethical behavior which will be punished or looked on with a jaundiced eye, I grant, you should absolutely sink to her level otherwise. There is no such thing as a moral victory here. Any people who say this to you want to see you put your club down so they can see her clobber you with hers. These people are NOT your friends.

With me so far? Number three. You cannot stop this divorce. You can only delay it, at best, and you will be punished for doing so. The judge and the court doesn’t want to see you any more then necessary. Why? Yes, you in the back –uh huh – that’s right! Because they are NOT your friend! No fault divorce is the law in every state of the Union, and every province in Canada. And she decided she wanted out long ago. If she wanted to work it out, she would have suggested counseling. Your marriage is over, and all the king’s horses and all the king’s men, as the saying goes. Grow up. Accept it. She does NOT want to be your friend anymore.

All righty, those are the ground rules. Questions? No? Part two then.

Some things you should have. First, despite what you may have heard about “Planning for divorce only assures divorce” I am here to tell you that it is unvarnished crap. You should have incriminating papers, financial records, valuable identification, and a certain amount of cash secured somewhere. This location should be a place you know, and have ready access to. Duplicate keys for many things should be there as well. If you keep such things in your home, you are an idiot.

If you have a lick of sense, you will have copies of canceled checks, money orders, and such with your signature to show you are paying the bills. I don’t care if it is coming out of a joint account, if you sign it, you pay it. If she signs it, she pays it. It’s that simple, and it’s amazing how many men get nailed by this piece of chicanery.

Next, have the name of a good, man friendly attorney. You can find these out by listening to men who have gotten a reasonable deal in a divorce, or by listening to women who have lost in a case. While rare, these people exist. Make sure they still practice. You need to call them, right now, and make an appointment. Again, I will wait.

At the risk of indulging in 20/20 hindsight, you should have seen the signs. She has stopped having nookie with you, she is not talking to you, she won’t tell you what is wrong, and if she does speak to you it is a litany of grievances and past offenses, whether real or imagined. Your job is not to argue here. You will not convince her. No matter what you do, you can do no right. She has already steeled herself to dispose of you, and is working up a good mad so she can treat you like her mortal enemy, and not feel guilty. She is erasing every good memory of you from her head.

Her habits have changed. Women are creatures who love habit, routine, and the familiar. Is she showing a persistent interest in finances? Does she hang up the phone quickly? Does she disappear for hours on end? Does she have mysterious appointments? Chances are she is consulting an attorney, and quite likely having an affair. This doesn’t matter if she is, but it is a hint and a half for you.

There is no sense in getting angry or confronting her, such will only give her the excuse she is looking for. If you are in this state, rejoice. You have hope to get out with your skin intact.

Forewarned is forearmed, and if at all possible (And legal) you should put a tap on the phone and record calls. This is NOT for evidence. This is to give you a heads up, and let you know what she is planning. It will not be admitted in any evidence, and you should make this tap removable and secure the tapes elsewhere. In any event, be your own detective. In addition, if you have a firearm, your bong from High school, or any recreational pharmaceuticals at all, get rid of them from your residence. Cupcake will, I promise, point out that you have an old roach clip hanging from your rear view mirror, and have you busted for residue from 1986.

Now here is where most men self destruct. Do not confront her. Do not beg, plead, argue, or cry to her. Pretend that everything is fine. Pretend you are the ignorant sucker she is counting on you to be. What you do is this – armed with the knowledge of her plans, preempt them. If she talks about getting the restraining order next Monday, you do so on Friday. If she talks about moving, stay home that day. Do not allow her to put her plan into action first. She is counting on the element of surprise, and if you remove that, all will fall apart on her. On that day will be the confrontation, and it is certain, if you have played your cards correctly, she will flip her lid. This is what you want.

One thing you need to remember is to stay absolutely, one-hundred percent calm at all times. The police are NOT your friends, and have been trained to look for any excuse to jail you. It doesn’t matter if you are a 140 pound accountant, and she is an Olympic weightlifter with four black belts. You are the male. You are the batterer, or the potential one. She is the poor dear who must be protected. No matter how it flies in the face of reason, all she has to do is claim being “afraid” and you are sunk. Utterly doomed. In addition, if you are calm, she will more than likely go from flipping out to absolutely berserk. This is NOT how it was supposed to be!

If the police must be called, you call them. Do not meet them outside. If you are outside, it is easier to make you be the one to leave. Do not cower inside. If they have to coax you out, you will piss them off. Be in the doorway, with your hands visible. Ask them in, and ask them to remove her, and if at all possible, have your attorney there or on the way. Cops will not screw with attorneys or step one inch out of line while they are present. The only thing a cop fears or respects is an attorney, acting in their official capacity.

Under no circumstances do you ever admit to yelling, threatening, raising your voice, raising your hand, or hitting her – and here, I don’t care if you lie. Admit nothing, find a simple story, and stick to it. Under no circumstances do you agree to leave. Don’t fight if they remove you – BUT DO NOT – I repeat - *DO* *NOT* leave. Do not surrender the house or your children If you leave, you have abandoned the home. The court will view this as black and white, anything else as an excuse, and you will never, ever get them back.

Do not let her take the kids. Do not let her take jewelry or papers. Do agree to allow her to take clothes, and only clothes, under, in order of preference, 1) You will get them for her, 2) Your attorney can supervise, 3) The officer can supervise. This will make you look good and reasonable. Let her take toiletries. Let her take nothing else. If you have more than one car, give up the one you do not want to see again. Do not let her take credit or bank cards. Make sure she has enough money for a hotel room for two nights, and about $50 for food if she has money, or write her a check for it. This will make you seem like a generous prince. Do not, however, at this point be alone with her. Have a cop with you at all times.

Upon her leaving, change the locks and notify your attorney that you want a restraining order. At this point, I want you to understand one thing, and one thing only, if you realize nothing else at all: You are paying that attorney for their expertise. If they suggest a course of action, especially if they have a proven track record of success, do what they say. This is why you are paying them. Let them have the wheel, and you be the passenger.

Do not talk to you wife after that except as directed by your attorney.

Do not call her, or try to contact her. You have no idea how swiftly this can be twisted into stalking and harassment.

Do not let her take the kids until you have a solid parenting agreement that has the court’s blessing. Courts get real pissed off when they are disobeyed. If they haven’t ruled, they can’t be disobeyed now, can they? Congratulations sucker. You just surrendered your kids to her custody. Look them real hard in the face and hug them tight. You might not see them for a spell.

If she asks for anything, your answer should be – yes, you in the hat? No! Nimrod! Give her nothing because she asks! Yes, you in St. Louis – correct! “I’ll run that by my attorney” is the correct answer. Follow your attorney’s advice. If he says, “Screw her!” then don’t be moved by tears or begging. If he says, “Go ahead, that’ll make you look good” do it with a smile. Your attorney, and your attorney alone is your friend, because you have PAID for that friendship.

Do not sleep with her. This is begging for a r*pe charge. What is fundamental number two? Yes, she will do it.

Do not bring “loose women” home. Swear off drinking, your Friday night poker parties, the dope, and any vice which might be brought up against you. While it is irrelevant for you to bring it up, she will be heard. Give her no excuse that you aren’t feeding the kids right, that you are letting them stay up, that you are leaving them alone. Don’t even smoke in your house. Keep it clean, even if you have to hire a service. If DCFS shows up, you want to be Little Sammy Homemaker.

Above all, do not tip your hand. Do not show your cards to her mother, her brother, her best friend, to the girl you are banging. Two people can keep a secret, but only if one is dead. It will get back to her, and you will regret it. Yes, her Best Friend thinks she always treated you so bad, and does this feel good, and how are you going to get her, here let me undo that, and I’ll never tell a soul – yeah, right. And how many times have we heard a woman tell us a secret she promised never to tell? Especially when she has probably been sent on a dirt-collecting mission to begin with. Stay alert, and trust no friend except the ones bought and paid for.

Now, in closing, as I said, I am no attorney, and the mileage on this may vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. You will still be playing on her turf, and with people disposed to favor her, if not outright biased against you. But you use this as a guideline, after running it by your attorney, and you will stand one heck of a lot better chance than the last poor slob. How do I know this? I lifted a lot of the ideas from a the postings of feminist attornies on “woMYn’s” sites while I was trolling as a woman. It pays to know your enemies.

Okay. Class dismissed. I’ll pray there won’t be a test for you.

Maybe I'm wrong- perhaps someone else can weigh in but can't he file for a different judge in this sitch because of the other one being "prejudice"???

It might be a good idea if you looked into taking a drug test.

To be able to show the judge that you are clean, and have been for quite a while.

This is a fairly fresh conviction, so it's a little hard to say you're clean, but the shrink may be able to help you.

If it's ever brought up in court, own it. Admit that you made a mistake, but that you put in the work to clean up your act and that it's not an issue at all anymore and that you've never done it around your son.

You're in a new area for me since I didn't have to deal with this in my situation. I've never tried any of this stuff, so I have no idea how often the courts see it where a parent does do these things.

The drug test will only show that I have been clean for so long, like a month or 2, but not for 9 months like I have been.

I was painting full time. Now that I have started school I have coordinated things to work with my school schedule. I paint 1 or 2 days a week, I work at a fast food place 2 nights a week, and I work a few hours(5-12) around my school schedule doing odds and ends at a brewery downtown.

I am going to school to do Nursing. I will be a Nurses Assistant by the end of summer. I have been married to my wife for over 4 years now. We have been in a relationship for almost 10 years now. We are both 25.

I did read that already. I know that first and foremost I need to have action and hard action, but I also hope and pray that something in this will break my wife out of her fog that she has allowed satan and his servents(such as the OM) to put and keep her in. I'm assuming that hard action with a good lawyer will do that. My daughter is most important at this point, but I would love to have my wife back.

I do have many witnesses from my church and work to testify that I have made major lifestyle changes in the past year. 9 months isn't that long, but most people that are gonna stay in a drug and party lifestyle cannot go near that long.

Still, isn't it better to be able to prove you've been clean the last 2 months, than no months at all?

You might be able to get a hair test that will show you've been clean for 3 months or longer.

There's little doubt that your drug conviction WILL come up in the custody hearings.

It will be up to you to PROVE, you've cleaned your act up.

I cut all of my hair off in Nov. so that will only show since then I assume.

Do any of you feel that there may still be hope for the marriage and family even though my wife has already filed for divorce?

Well a new development. Apparently WW and OM have had some sort of inappropriate contact while I freed her up today by taking my daughter to church with me. I found this email(I changed the names, all else is the same, the top is her reply to his "apology"):

I'm sorry too. Don't know what else to say....

WW

--- On Sun, 1/18/09, OM wrote:

From: OM
Subject:
To: WW
Date: Sunday, January 18, 2009, 6:21 PM

I'm so sorry about today. I've jeopardized our friendship and it's not alright. Please forgive me. If we are going to spend time together than I want you to be as a sister to me. Please help me with this because I'm a weak person.

OM

How should I use this new info? I can't really talk to my Spouse because of the Order. I also do not want to reveal that I have access to her email. I want to keep that information stream open. I am hoping and praying that what happened here was the OM whom I will call Wolf, thought that he finally had me out of the picture, made his move(pounce) on my wife, she turned him down and told him to leave, he pulls his manipulation tactics and acts repentant via email, since she made him leave, he didn't have time to do it in person. I know her mannerisms and the way she was short with him and not saying anything more than that she is sorry too(that he is such an [censored]) possibly indicates that she may now be seeing the wolf for what he truly is. Ive been monitoring this and I don't think that the relationship ever went past kissing. He has been playing mind tricks with her and she has fallen for it. I have been praying for his veil(sheepskin) to be removed and that it would be revealed what an evil creature he is underneath. This may be the answer to that. May he fall into the pit he has dug.

Maybe just wait and see what other info you can come across.

Zambo,

I found an email just like this with my WW. Sorry to break it to you, but this noble rebuff you picture from WW is not likely what happened. You're telling yourself that because it feels better, but the odds are very high that they did stuff together.

How do I know this? Because I lived it and saw an email that is almost verbatim what he wrote.

None of these thoughts were running through his head when he had her clothes off.

Same goes for your sitch. This is a "really, I'm a noble man and you're not some sex object to me" type of CYA that he's doing to look noble to her.

And you can't do anything about it.

Accept the fact that your marriage is over and move forward with divorce proceedings with no mercy.

THAT is the only way that you will ever have any chance to restore anything, which is by showing WW consequences to having an affair.

Concentrate on getting your child back because you can't make your wife stop seeing this man and you can't control their actions at all.

Play your cards right and you can get custody.

THAT is your goal. Anything else above that is gravy.

I don't want my child around this guy.

what is CYA?

CYA?

Cover your A$$.

oh, yeah, that is exactly what the little snake is doing.

Well I have the hearing on the OOP on Friday morning. I am going at it without a lawyer, but have had good advice from a lawyer I am able to stay in contact with, and good advice from the fathers group that I joined.

Zambo, how did your hearing go today?

it just got moved to next thurs. consolidated with the divorce case.

The OOP got dropped!!! Next are the divorce hearings. I still have hope about our relationship. My wife is really depressed about all this, I know she feels bad, but she doesn't want to stop what she already has started.

I would forward that email to the other man's wife, pronto........

I have thought about it, but then I will lose any chance of monitoring future email. plus this guy is so crafty that he has his wife in the palm of his hand, his wife and mine are even having dinner this weekend together.

So get a picture of him and your wife having dinner and send it to OM's wife.

Either hire someone or get a friend to go and get a picture or set of pictures. Maybe you can catch them holding hands or kissing and have that sent to the OM's wife. If she stays in denial at that point, then she has real issues.

they haven't been spending time together at all anymore, so snooping is just going to get me in trouble, especially with all this in court now. I know that you guys will say that I am just being naive, but from her emails I see that she wants to be done with it, and he is holding on for dear life sending her scriptures and encouraging words. They haven't seen each other outside of work since the indecent in the email over 2 weeks ago. This guy is a crafty little piece of poo.

So in the end what are you going to do with all these emails if you are getting a divorce? Why let them get away with it and why let the OM's wife sit there looking like a idiot? If she knew and you didn't wouldn't you want to know?

But what if my wife doesn't go through with it, or changes her mind later? I am saving all of this, and it can all be brought to attention later.

What you're doing is called wishful thinking and denial.

You're getting a D. You can either get slammed in the process or you can take action and take the offensive.

I was passive and allowed myself to be dictated to. It took 3 years and thousands and thousands to get a palatable arrangement to see my kids.

Now you're sitting there, with a divorce underway, "hoping" and "wishing" it would go away.

Well, people on the Titanic could have hoped and wished all they wanted, the ship was still going down.

Those that took action survived. Those that sat around hoping didn't (and I know the full story, I'm trying to illustrate a point).

So now you're sitting there, in denial, while the WW is actually moving forward with a D.

It's happening. You can make the choice now. Do I wish to be a winner or a loser?

If you want to be a winner, then you take action to protect your rights as a father.

It's that simple.

I am hoping and wishing, for there still is hope, the God I serve can do mighty things, the only thing he won't do is override someones freewill. So I am putting this situation in His hands, but how He will work in the situation is very dependent upon my wife. I will hope, I will wish, but I will not make the mistake of assuming things are going to work out. I am doing what I need to do legally. Revealing emails is not going to be beneficial regardless.

I am not going to get slammed. I am quite prepared, and my wife is an emotional wreck(she's feeling guilty) and totally unprepared and her lawyer is a flake that didn't even show up to the last hearing.

So if you have solid proof of the affair for the OM's wife, why are you keeping it from her?

She already knows about it. Me giving her details that aren't really details anyway is not going to change anything. It will only ruin my chance to monitor what is going on further.

Zambo, revealing those emails to the OMW could very well blow up this affair quickly. At the very least, it will hasten its death. God cannot help you much if you are intent on helping the affairees HIDE the affair. Your actions ENABLE the affair. You become an accessory to the crime by hiding this intel.

The point of snooping is not voyuerism, but to use the information to bust up the affair. If you have the intel, then you should use it for that purpose.

Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. Ephesians 5:11

It has already been exposed to her. She doesn't care that they remain in contact, she is very deceived.