OW needs advice....help! - Marriage Builders® Forums

Marriage Builders

For the past 2+ years I have been the OW. It is not a situation I'm proud to be in, but it is something that happened for many reasons. Soon after meeting the love of my life, I purchased Dr. Harley's HN/HN to try to understand why a man would venture into an A.This book was fantastic! It gave me insight on how very important needs are to a marriage. Without a W providing those needs, a H turns to someone else. This guy is a loving, caring husband and father, and a good provider, but he misses out on emotional, recreational and physical needs which should be essential from his W. We came into each other's life by chance and found we shared so many interests and a great friendship. We fulfilled all of Dr. H.'s needs for each other. We enjoyed recreation, sports, music and lots of other "fun" things. We always make each other smile. It was only natural for it to lead to S. Along the way, I fell in love. It seems so natural and right to be together. He recently told me that he cares about me a great deal, but does not love me. I was shocked, as I thought our feelings were mutual. I feel something in his eyes when he looks at me. I can't believe I could be so wrong, but maybe my strong love for him blinds me.In addition, he also told me that he's recently met an OW that he may want to be with physically, although they do not share the same friendship we do. He has no intention of ending contact with me yet, but will wait to see how his new "friendship" develops with the OW. He does not want to hurt me, but wants to be honest. Needless to say, I am hurt, heartbroken. The thought of him with an OW tears me apart.What do I do? How do I stop loving him? I always knew that I placed second to his W and family, but didn't expect to "compete" with an OW. Has anyone dealt with something like this? Help! Thanks!

His Needs Her Needs is for married couples not ow's and married men... you have made the biggest mistake of your life by being involved with a married man. You need to end it and get out now. YOu should really look at yourself. You are sinning, you are making big mistakes... his wife is the unknowing trusting soul that he is betratying... it is his job to work on his committed marriage and not turn away to an ow... and no, it is not the wife's fault he did this... you are a temptation, you are an illusion.. -perhaps your relationship with the mm got too real and he needs another fantsy... this man is sick and you are sicker for participating in this. YOu need to do something quick and get a real life... this is not real.. you are seriously ill, seek help. I am sorry to be so negative but put yourself in his wife;s shoes... I am sure he has made up many a lie... he is a liar, right? and exaggerated many of her faults... while he justifies his adulterous relationship with you, an ow... I am so sorry that you have participated in this... please understand your mistakesz and get help for htis and move on... no one here will help you perpetuate your A.H [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/blush.gif" border="0[/img]

I'm just going to warn you to be prepared for some cutting remarks. OW and OM aren't all that well thought of on this forum. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] The only thing I can think to say is I think both you and the W would be better off without him. He sounds like a jerk.[ April 05, 2002: Message edited by: LostForWords ]

Oh my goodness [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] You're not serious, my dear! You have NOT come to a marriage builders forum to ask how you can handle your friendship with a married man since he recently told you he's interested in ANOTHER OW? [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] I don't want to be unkind, but this is not a problem for MB site. People are here working on their marriages. You need to find a relationship forum to discuss this issue with others. But briefly, this MM sounds like a jerk and a half, playin' you and who knows how many others. That you could be fooled is definitely something to be wary about, but consider the fact that you KNEW he was married and continued seeing him, I think that had something to do with the fact that MM knew you were easy prey, and could be treated this carelessly. You teach people how to treat you.God Bless,
Lisa (previously "browneyedgirl")

DJ,If you really want to know how to get out of this relationship, I can probably help you. First, change your telephone number and get an unlisted number. Second, change your email address. Third, move to another town(I know this sounds drastic, but it is the only real way). If this man still somehow contacts you, threaten to tell his wife. You will go through intense withdrawal for about three weeks, then it will fade after about three months. In the meantime, find a female minister or church friend and tell HER the entire story. She can keep you accountable. This is really the only way to effectively stop loving him, as you say. Unfortunately, it will be very painful.In regard to your questions about the OOW, it is very simple. Look at this from his perspective. You have already proven that you are willing to be the second woman in his life, so why not the third? He is now having some needs met by his wife, and some met by you, but now he wants to see if the OOW can meet some of them better, kind of an audition. I know that this sounds harsh, but I really think that if you get away from this man and make it through withdrawal, you will be very happy that you did. No one deserves to be the "second" woman in a man's life, and certainly not the third. If you make it through this, you will look back and be thankful that you got away from him when you did. Just my opinion.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by djmusicbox:
In addition, he also told me that he's recently met an OW that he may want to be with physically, although they do not share the same friendship we do. Gee, he's cheating on the mistress that he is cheating on his wife with with another woman. Sounds like a prince, a real catch. Someone you'd want as a moral anchor for your children, and to count on in your old age.Sorry, but your situation does not exactly bring up a crying need to dispel advice in me. Perhaps your should try www.marriagewreckers.com

One question - Are YOU married?

The choices we make in life are not always going to be the best ones. We make mistakes, learn from them and move on. There is a web site that someone posted a link to a while back about healthy vs unhealthy relationships. Unfortunately, I don't have that link. In essesnce, it helped distinguish between relationships that encourage positive growth and those that can only lead to dispair. They both involve feelings of being "in love". Even women who get beaten by their spouses often feel "in love". The difference is that healthy relationships are capable of meeting all our current needs and adapting to our future needs. The realtionshipo you are in now would not meet that criteria. It may have love, but unless you a Beatle, love is NOT all you need. It sounds like HNHN has opened your eyes a bit to the reality that there is nothing magic about love. Reading posts here will reoinforce that - in any marriage it comes and goes. healthy realtionships have cycles but the couples survive these cycles because they share more than just romantic feelings. The roomantic love you feel now is great - but so can a love with another man. One that is willing to commit to you and meet all your needs for the rest of your life. Isn't that far more worthwhile than chasing a part time lover? Why do this to yourself. You deserve better. Breaking up with your MM will not be easy. There are some letters in the Q/A section of this site that deal with the feelings of being in love with another person and taking the steps to break of that relationship. they are designed for married people in external affairs but they would apply to you as well. What may make it more difficult for you is that you don't have another relationship to fall back on. i amnot sure if there is any way to compensate for that. It will be tough and take allot of courage. But having said that, you really do sound like a courageous woman. I think you could do it. This isn't a great site to get support during this important time in your life. Some of the people here are going to have a hard time sympathizing with you because it triggers negative feelings from their own relationships. Your stpry will cause them hurt and it will be hard for them to understand the lonliness and dispair that you might feel as you learn to cope without your MM. 
If you would like support there is a web site called lovingyou.com that I think has a board for members in similar circumstances to yours and some excellent mentors to help you through. If there is anything more we can do, please let me know. Take care and make today the first day of a new more fulfilling life... your worth it.

if you read dr harleys book, you already know that he views an affair as the most despicable act a spouse can inflict on another. when you read that part....and his descriptions of the pain and anguish they cause....i wish you had had the strength to end this affair on your own....you could have preserved more of your identity and self respect....and getting over him would be much easier. it's too late to undo what has been done....but if it is not over yet...do it now please.
as you can see....there have been a lot of people hurt on the site by the destruction of an affair. you don't mention if this man has children who are also the innocent victims....the pain goes on and on and you have joined the ranks of it's prey. no matter how much you love this man please open your eyes to the reality of your situation and end any and all contact with him immediately...it is a dead end street for you...and this man is poison. it is natural that the people here will have more in common with the wife he betrayed...so many of us have been on the receiving end and are working very hard to rebuild in the aftermath. that does not mean i don't understand what it is like to love someone....or how hard it is to get over someone....i do....but the only thing that does that is time.....time spent apart....if you see him at all....you will be in pain all over again.
isit2late is right....do whatever you must to separate yourself from him and slowly, slowly it will get easierand visualize in your mind what a low, knieving, manipulative, scumbag, dirty rotten, weasel...dog doo, batspit, pondscum, toe cheese [censored] this guy is and it will get easier and easier.

PLEASE!!! Do you think this man really cares about you? He was using you just like he was using his wife and is now going to use another OW. If I were you, I'd tell the wife, she deserves to know. My H did this to me 2 yrs. ago and I wish some one had told me. Get away from this pig, he is a user, and an abuser. The real victim here is his wife and his kids, NOT YOU. Think about his poor kids. Good luck in your break from him.

cow manure, rat poisoning, goat turds, toad slime

snot drippings, bird guano, rabbit pellets

osama breath, crotch rot, horse dung

This has to be the most stupidist thing I've ever read in my entire life!Are you for real?Did you make this up?NO ONE! I MEAN---NO ONE CAN BE THIS STUPID.NO ONE.ANNA

that stuff you pick out of your teeth, nail clippings, phlem

bump

Hi dj--You're certainly in a pickle, aren't ya. I think it's great that you read HNHN. It will prepare you for your next relationship. An unencumbered one. That word looks enough like cucumber to stay with my pickle theme here.Perhaps your MM's needs haven't been met by his W. It's probably not too much a stretch to guess he's not meeting hers either. A couple of comments: <blockquote>quote:<hr>We fulfilled all of Dr. H.'s needs for each other. We enjoyed recreation, sports, music and lots of other "fun" things.<hr></blockquote>I believe you supply SOME of MM's needs, while his W is fulfilling others. <blockquote>quote:<hr>He recently told me that he cares about me a great deal, but does not love me.<hr></blockquote>2+ years, and he doesn't love you.... <blockquote>quote:<hr>He has no intention of ending contact with me yet, but will wait to see how his new "friendship" develops with the OW. He does not want to hurt me, but wants to be honest.<hr></blockquote>Oh, I'm sure he has no intention of ending contact with you yet (and sorry, don't mean to sound sarcastic). Your MM is a player. He will string you along as long as you let him. He deceives his W. I doubt he's being entirely honest with you -- he's probably already had sex with OW #2. Why risk losing OW #1 if he hasn't already tasted the fruit/receptiveness of OW #2? <blockquote>quote:<hr>He does not want to hurt me, but wants to be honest.<hr></blockquote>Well, he's hurting a lot of people, you included. <blockquote>quote:<hr>The thought of him with an OW tears me apart.<hr></blockquote>dj, may I ask...does it hurt you that he returns to his W also? You say you didn't expect to "compete" with an OW. Yet, you "compete" with a W. Things aren't as bad at home as he would like you to believe; he's still there. Kinda makes his claims of honesty seem a bit...half...hearted....at best. <blockquote>quote:<hr>What do I do? How do I stop loving him?<hr></blockquote>1. Inform MM - no further contact initiated or accepted.
2. Heal - will take time. Reflect on what's happened, and why this was acceptable to you at ANY time, then KNOW you deserve better.
3. Utilize MB concepts in your next relationship (stay away from those married ones!).Good luck.

Thank you everyone for your comments. And yes, even the stinging ones....I did expect them and deserve them, as I said I was not proud of the situation I'm in. The many comments are helping me see my MM as he really is...a liar, a cheat, and someone very deceitful....but I still love him. I don't want to, I wish I didn't, but I do. Contrary to what many of you may think, I do believe in marriage and family. What I've gotten into is totally wrong and against my upbringing. I'm an average woman; not a vamp after another woman's husband. Hopefully everyone's comments will make me strong enough to end this. If I didn't love him, I wouldn't have gotten into this to begin with. I know God didn't give me someone else's husband....but I don't know why He made me fall in love with him.

dj....i'm a little surprised you came back after the beating you took, it's just that and i hope you can now see....that so many lives here have been destroyed by affairs. we don't want to help teach you how to keep a married man, or how to use the techniques here to destroy a marriage...even if you do still love him. if you get anything out of this....please please let it be that continuing to love this man will only bring you and others heartbreak. God didn't choose this man for you....he gave each of us free will....and while we can't always choose who we fall in love with....we can choose to act on that love or not. God still loves you....but this man without honor probably never did. please do what ever is necessary to get away from this love...it will not bring you happiness and you are depriving yourself of the opportunity to meet someone you could have a decent relationship with. i know you are in pain....i don't want that for anyone...but it won't stop until you write this guy off. he is a user. "only a fool faces temptation...the wise man runs away" i think St. Francis of Assisi said that....i'm not sure...but whoever did....they were right. run dj....run as far as fast as you can.

Starfish, thank you! I do realize and respect the fact that the MB site is to help married couples rebuild their relationships. I'm also aware of the pain which an A causes to those involved, which is why the harsh comments were expected. I guess the reason I posted was out of desperation....and maybe for encouragement on how to end this situation I've gotten into. For obvious reasons, I cannot discuss this with family, friends or co-workers. I am confused, in love, guilty, happy when I'm with him, sad for what I'm doing and so many more things. Some of the comments have made me realize that he is not the "perfect man" I once thought. There is a saying that "eyes are the doorway of the soul". When I look in his eyes I see something that I've never seen before. Its something beautiful....Not the eyes of a deceiving liar, but of someone who is loving and caring....Maybe that is why I got into this situation....and maybe that is why it is so hard to end it. I can't believe I could have been so wrong about him.

djmb:YOu should check out the thread "the pregnant other woman" elsewhere on this forum. It started out that way, with an OW who is pregnant and hurt that her MM is going back to work on his M with his W. She couldn't understand why he would do that. She also felt attacked here. I sincerely hope she still checks this site from time to time, because I think most people sincerely would like to help out, but come across as angry because that type of person, the OW or OM, isn't all that interested in saving marriages, at least not at first. The Thread I mention evolved, with someone jumping in that was in a similar situation. Her posts were initially very angry, but she's come around to recognizing the need to break off her A with OM, who is married with kids. She's M'd also, but has OM's child. Her situation is far from resolved, but she is trying very hard to solve her problem and extricate herself from the very powerful addiction of the A with the OM. You can do the same if you want to. Eventually, hopefully soon, you will realize your OM's true colors. He can't truly care that much for you, because his attention and affection is divided among three women. Gadzooks, I can't imagine maintaining that kind of lifestyle, myself! Good luck to you.

dj...you won't stop loving him....it's not about changing your feelings....you may love him forever. What you change is your actions. Become unavailable to him....move if you must....change your number, etc.... so that he can't look at you with those "eyes" and deceive you any longer. Slowly and it may be very very slowly....you will be able to extricate yourself from your dependence on him. Right now he is like a drug....and you are an addict. To kick any kind of habit...the first thing you have to do is remove yourself from temptation. It will be very hard....but it is NOT impossible....and you CAN do it. You deserve to have your own husband who will love only you...want to have a family and build a life with you....and his wife deserves to have hers. Think about what is happening to your life....you are throwing it away on someone who doesn't really love you....his actions prove that. Do it dj

I don't think God "makes" us fall in love with someone. We have a free will and we are tested many times throughout our lives. Sometimes the people we think we love just aren't good for us, or are not available as they've taken vows with someone else.My H also swore he was 'in love' with his OW. Now he looks back and can't believe he ever felt that way. It was infatuation, and a very selfish one at that. Did God "make" him do it? Hardly.

DJ - thanks for coming back to read the responses. I realize how hard it is to read the truth. And I realize that what I said was going to sting, but the only thing that wouldn't sting was a lie, and you don't need more of those.The advice that you will probably not stop loving him is very good. Most likely, you won't - or it will take a very long time. You've read HNHN, so you know that his account in your love bank will never close. When you break contact with him, he will also not have the opportunity to make withdrawals. As much as we want to, we cannot "close" accounts on people.The fact is that an A is an alternate reality. You don't have to deal with his day-to-day activities and LB's as his wife does, and consequently, his account in your Love Bank is very high. Realize that even if you could (or would want to) have a committed relationship with this man, you would eventually see why his marriage is so troubled to begin with. Also from HNHN, you should realize that his troubled marriage is at least partly his fault. The reality is never as good as the dream.I do not doubt that you see good in this man, why else would you love him? But, the betrayer, the liar, and the egocentric are all there, as well. People are rarely ALL bad, or ALL good, contrary to what Hollywood would like us to believe. Even the bad ones have a heart that is vulnerable, but I still maintain that his heart is stuck on his one true love - himself.[ April 11, 2002: Message edited by: takola ]

If you really love him, then leave. Love is not selfish--seek what is best for him--and it isn't you! I'm sorry for your pain but one day you will get over him, I promise.

DJ,I agree with madgirl. You will get over him. I had a boyfriend in high school that I was head-over-heels for. We were "together" for a month. I broke it off because of mismatched religious convictions. It tore me up. I loved him even after I got married 4 years later, and worried that I wouldn't love my H exclusively. I have even had contact with him. I dealt with dreams and loads of other things. But I finally have let go and truly love my H as I should.Let him go, hun. You can find someone better, more truthful and loving. One whose eyes look at only you in that special way.Pray about it. Make a list of qualities (single being the first one) and pray very hard that God will bring you a godly spouse and that he would make you a wonderful and devoted wife and that you can meet all his needs, that God ordains for you to meet.HTH,Hoping

<blockquote>quote:<hr> I guess the reason I posted was out of desperation....and maybe for encouragement on how to end this situation I've gotten into. <hr></blockquote>DJ, get out of this situation for YOU. For your: future, self-esteem, emotional fulfillment, conscience, etc. There are at least a hundred reasons for you to get out of this for YOU. If not for you, then for the W and kids. I'm glad you took a step to get encouragement and such, and I encourage you, but the real reason you need to do it is for you, not for a bunch of nameless, faceless strangers on the 'net.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by starfish4729:
....it's not about changing your feelings....<hr></blockquote>THAT was beautiful!It takes two trips around all of my fingers and all of my toes to count the number of times I have gone over that - and Starfish said it in those few words!...As a matter of fact, in another thread I wrote something about how we CHOOSE our behavior, but we have to CULTIVATE our feelings - feelings aren't chosen, they are "inspired".I believe I'll spare all the regulars my long thesis on the topic, but it's something I think should be a major foundation to all marriages (with the addition of the Harley concepts though, to spruce up a better-feeling and thus more secure relationship as such)OK.. the short thesis anywayThe really short one...
Is "fish" a noun, or a verb?
(Is it a thing, or an action)Is "love" a noun or a verb?A "feeling" is a thing
A "behavior" is an actionI love (verb)my wife always regardless of my feelings (noun) about her anytime.And I find that the more I love (verb) my wife - more I love (feeling/love) my wife.
...The "feeling" is cultivated.
the behavior is a choice.How you feel about this man is one matter.
How either of you behave is another - but how you behave will cultivate how you feel.God (by the way) didn't make you love this man. You saw characteristics you liked and then CULTIVATED a set of feelings regarding him.You may have a tough time of it at first, but you can un-cultivate those feelings by omitting the behavior that cultivated them to begin with... best way to do that is to totally avoid him.You're a fortunate one.
When I saw your initial post I figured that it was just someone playing a game, because this is a "marriage-BUILDERS" forum (and some of the less-kind comments made by typically kind posters were inspired hey, there goes another cultivated/inspired feeling again by your other-than-conventional post.I'm one of those hard-cases that believes much reliance on "feelings" is a dangerous mistake. Feelings are shifting sand, a REAL commitment is granite when the resolve and priorities are right.Honorable men make real commitments and stick to them... and so do honorable women, and neither seek to ever divide others who are trying to do the same.Throw out rationalizations like "God" (or the devil) "made me do it", be accountable for your choices.
Leave this man aloneOtherwise, be encouraged (in propriety)
and be well

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Lucks:
Perhaps your MM's needs haven't been met by his W.<hr></blockquote>First, I T-totally agree with all that Lucks has said - I'm just using this to point out another thing (about rationalizing, a trait I do not particularly approve of)DJ, so what if his needs aren't being met by his wife? Or a wife's needs aren't being met?
...that sounds ugly and mean, but the real bottom line is that none of us has any right to do any more than feel a little sorry for someone who's missing out on something in life.The whole idea behind EN's is to further proof our marriages against affairs - IF we have our ENs met THEN we are less likely to have an affair....
...but we still may, even so
If we do not we are MORE likely to have an affair.
...but we may not, because we are committed to our vows and values....got carried away again.Sorry... hope everyone is well

DJ, what you see in this man's eyes is your own reflection! Because you are a loving, caring, giving person, you think you're seeing that in him. It's called "projection" and also "wish fulfilment."Actions show what people really are, not words, not the shine in their eyes. Could be contact lenses.... or just favourable genes. It's a scientifically proven fact that people whose eyes are fairly large and spaced at least one eye width apart are perceived by others as being innocent, trustworthy and loving. These are all qualities present in babies, who have big eyes spaced well apart.... This man's actions show him to be a selfish predator, who takes time, money, and energy that actually belongs to his wife and kids and squanders them on his various mistresses. His wife may well be desperately lonely and longing for an afternoon at a concert, or an evening at the theatre, or a day spent sailing or going for a walk in a redwood forest. Instead, he's out having a high old time, justifying himself by telling you "oh my wife doesn't understand me. She has no time for me. She never wants to play with me. She doesn't even like sex." Go to any pub of your choice, pick a barmaid at random and repeat these sentences to her. Watch her roll her eyes in disgust, listen to her tell you how many married men sit at the bar and try to pick her up using exactly this "take pity on this poor little baby" line. Barmaids are traditionally viewed by men as "having hearts of gold", also as being "easy meat."This man is poison. And you will stop loving him when you stop seeing yourself reflected in his eyes.

Thank you everyone for all of your encouragement and support!! As hard as it is, I am trying to see this guy for what he really is....Since the second I met him, I realized that he was the guy I always dreamed about as a little girl....my "knight in shining armor"....the guy I'd live "happily ever after" with and have kids with....only I knew that would never happen because his W "won the prize" many years ago....and I'm sorry, I do consider him a "prize", no matter what the facts are or what he is....my love for him is so strong, that even if he was my H, I think I would tolerate him having affairs....at least I would still have him, even if not totally.As I write this, I'm crying....I miss him so much...its been a few days since we've talked...he hasn't mentioned the status of the OW#2 for some time...and I didn't ask...before I knew of OW#2, I knew he was with his family...and that was ok, because that's where he should be....but now I wonder if he's with "her" and it hurts so bad....Its been especially hard because recently there's been an emergency in my family...he was always there for me to talk to....and I could talk so easy to him...moreso than anyone in my life...just the sound of his voice would calm me down...and relax me...life always looked better after I talked to him....I miss him so much I don't know what to do...I don't know how I could have been so stupid and gullible to fall in love.....and why did it have to be so ugly and painful????

I wish for one month you would find a BS and talk with them daily. Maybe you could get some insight on the absolute agony that we go through. I am being judgmental (forgive me) but you should seriously consider what you are doing.
As the BS I would love to correspond with you - anonymously of course so that you could see first hand what you are involved in.

DJ, the other day after reading your thread I went back to look for another thread I had been following a few months ago...couldn't find it, it was on one of the other topics that I don't usually visit, couldn't remember which or who it was by...anyway, it was a looong thread by a MM who had a "love" affair with a woman. He told how they connected emotionally and she fell in love with him...he told her he loved her too, said all the right things, but according to him he was just doing/saying whatever in order to continue getting this exciting sex. I thought you might find it interesting.I had an EA a while ago. Normally I wouldn't tell you how wonderful this man is, because that is counterproductive to my marriage and besides the point. BUT, listening to you, I feel I should share what he was like because of how you feel about your MM. I wasn't "looking", in fact I was on (another) a discussion board for trouble relationships because my marriage was crumbling. Same for him. He had all these wonderful things to say about his wife, even though it sounded like he got the short end of the stick spouse-wise. I would keep saying "I wish MY H was like that...", ect. Anyway, I fell for him, didn't see it coming because niether of us had bad intentions. He was just reaching out to me, and I discovered someone that in a different world would have made a wonderful companion to me. After I ended it, for a long time I missed him. I felt terrible for dropping such a great person. I had so much sympathy and empathy for him in his situation at home. I now realize this is part of the "fog" they talk about. Now, more than a year after ending it, I can see how his involvement with me may have directly affected his relationship with his W. NOW I understand it wasn't all "poor him" bs. Not that I think he's bad now...I just think that he did have a major part contributing to the downfall of his marriage.That's it.

Seekingadvice: I understand your feelings, please believe that I do...and I do not expect sympathy from a BS. I know what I've gotten myself into and it doesn't make me proud or happy. But I did it because of love, not because I intended to destroy a marriage or hurt a spouse. I knew at the beginning how important family was for him....he would never leave his W or kids and I would never ask him to....there was never a chance that "we'd be together some day" because I knew it would never happen. Maybe the pain I suffer now is my punishment for what I've done to his family...and if so, ok, I deserve it....I just need help in dealing with it.

Love?
Love is nothing that you described.
I am sorry for your hurt but you created it and it is not of love.
I wish you the best but somehow I feel that you you won't find it in the place you are now.
Good luck to you. You are in my prayers.

lolagranola, thank you for sharing your story...there are so many similarities. My MM often mentions how much he loves his W (think he could be trying to convince himself of that??). And, like your case, he also gets the short end of the stick...she always yells because he never does enough, she's never bought him a Xmas or birthday card/gift in 16 yrs. of marriage...she's mean to him....and on and on...naturally this causes sympathy from me...I never thought of this as being a "fog", but perhaps it is....I know my involvement with him affected his marriage. A few times things were very bad for him and the kids, since he never hid the fact that him and I were "just friends"....(I'm sure she suspected more than a casual friendship, thou.) A few times he made choices in favor of me, rather than her, and that made their relationship even worse. Although he always said he would never leave his family, I can see where he is destroying it, but maybe blaming her instead of himself....but these are just thoughts....And I would have enjoyed reading the thread you mentioned from a few months ago...too bad you couldn't find it again!

DJMB,
First, because you won't like this response, please read the threads by Free2BMe. That may not be the correct name, it may be FreeToBeMe. She's married to a man who behaves the same way this MM does. Constant A's, always tells the same sobstory to his women, about how selfish, demanding, controlling and frigid his wife is. Free is nothing like that, as her H himself admits. But the story works every time, gets him attention and sex from a succession of gullible women with severe self-esteem problems. He had an A 2 weeks before they were married, and in the 2 years since she's lost count of how many he's had....Do you have any evidence that this man's wife doesn't buy him birthday or xmas cards/gifts? Is it only his word you're relying on? If so, why? you know for a fact he's a liar. He lies to his wife all the time, telling her he's "just friends" with you. If he lies to his wife, he lies to you. Also, could it be possible that his wife yells at him because he DOESN'T do much for the marriage? Where is he evenings and weekends? Does he read his kids stories, help with their homework, do laundry, watch his son play baseball, take his daughter for icecream and show her by example how a nice man treats a girl? Does he model for his son the way that a man should treat his wife?Suppose you got this prize. Wanna be home alone evenings and weekends, carrying the whole burden and emotional strain of raising kids on your own, doing the housework, while he's out there with a succession of girlfriends, looking into your eyes and saying "But we're just friends!! Why are you so unreasonable?"I too read the tales of King Arthur and his knights. This guy would have been dishonorably stripped of his tarnished armour, had his sword broken across Arthur's knee and had his name erased from his chair at the Round Table.Interestingly, you see yourself as a damsel in distress who is totally incapable of doing anything for herself and longing for some man to throw her across his saddlebow and ride off with her. Why do you see yourself as such a weakling, that you'd even be prepared, so you think now, to marry a man who would never be faithful to you, never treat you with respect, be a total selfish ***hole, abuse your kids with his neglect? Make no mistake, this man is ABUSING his wife and kids emotionally while he hangs around having pity parties with any available woman. Sorry if that stings, but didn't he tell you himself he intends to scr*w #2 even though he doesn't really like her and it's not a friendship? The only honest thing he's done is to tell you that he doesn't love you. His actions certainly show that to be true!!

djmusicbox,You seem pretty sincere in all that you have said. (I'm one of the people here who's a skeptic when an odd poster shows up and posts something that's a little outlandish, as in "I'm the OW", in a marriage-builders forum. - It's only occasionally, but I think sometimes people stop in and leave a little something to see what kinds of reactions it may inspire).
....I'm convinced that you are genuine, and perceive that you are sincere.But "sincere" doesn't even remotely imply that you are right, or justified in any way at all. Only that you are being honest as far as you know, and that you believe the things you say you believe... right up to the things your honorable MM tells you.It's a good thing, though... More than that, it strikes me that you are graceful that you take your punches pretty well, and aren't combative when some of us have bluntly said negatively of and to you.You'll be taking some sort of punches all of your life if you don't regard honor and faithfulness as any more important than what you've indicated. "If he was your husband you'd even be willing to let him have affairs?" Maybe so...
...And even if it is so, if you are a very thoughtful person at all you may consider that his wife may not agree. And his greater COMMITMENT based on vows, is to her.Some of the others here have said things to convince you that your MM may likely be lying to you about how his wife treats him. That she's mean, cold, unaffectionate... doesn't remember his birthday.. things like that. (And likely so, and I won't disagree with them not one whit)
...But how about this? -->What if your MM is telling the truth!?!? What if his wife really is mean, cold, ugly in spirit and character and awful in all regards?
...Let's just go ahead and take those things to be for a fact (because it is actually possible)
...Let's go even a step further and say that it's none of his own doing, that he has taken EVERY conceivable step to inspire better things and better feelings and better behavior from his wife - Let's even give him that (because even that's even possible! though likelihood diminishes)OK djmusicbox, all of those things are true of him!Then all of that is his problem.
He won't die because of it.
And even if he will die...
....it's not your problem - you have no right or reason to rescue him or substitute for him to make up for any loss he has with his wife. All back to basics in this that I am saying... back to the ground rules, and quit dallying around with "feelings" (deeply love?) and things.And no... you aren't being punished, your pain isn't punishment. That's a bit of a magical concept, and here's the back to basics assessment of that, too.
...Go into your kitchen and start a pot of water for making spaghetti or something... When it's ready for the noodles, skip that part and put your hand in there for about 10 seconds. You'll be in an awful lot of pain when you do that, and it'll be a lingering pain and certainly not much eased for a few days at best.
...In fact, the intensity and duration that the pain is there will probably directly correspond to how hot the water really is AND how long you keep your hand in it.
hot.... (deeper feelings)...
how long... (how long you play this)Could result in a lot of pain...
But the pain is NOT PUNISHMENT, whether it be for a blistered hand or a blistered spirit.
The pain is nothing more than the logical consequence of doing foolish things.
...If it were punishment, then it would be a mighty unjust thing, because then it would mean that all the "good" (unlike your MM's evil wife) were being punished too..
...Even their children, who've don't nothing wrong at all.... yep, children suffer pain too, because of adulteries that their parents commit.When you get right down to it, the rules are pretty simple.I don't wish any bad thing on you, nor any pain - moreover would hope that you'd pull your hand out of the pot, and in time become as happy as you may be.

Well, juststartingover, thank you for the referral to the threads by FreeToBeMe. I'd like to respond to the reply by ilmf also....Although the people involved in each A are different, I do have to "defend" my MM from some of your comments....I do know his W to some degree (and not only by what he tells me). She is not a caring, thoughtful or compassionate person (towards anyone, even her kids), which is why I believe his statement about the cards/gifts.As for what he does for his marriage....I also know for a fact that HE is the one spending time with the kids, running errands for them (and for her). HE is the one doing laundry, cooking, cleaning the house and attending ALL of his kids sports (while she would rather spend that time alone visiting her favorite "chat rooms" on the internet to talk to men)...(again, this is verified from other people who know them; not only from what he tells me). Friends often see HIM at the kids school functions...rarely do they see her....HE is the one taking the kids bike riding, out for ice cream, to picnics.....Yes, I do believe (to some degree) that he models the way a man should treat his wife...he buys her gifts, flowers, and never complains.... Yes, he is home evenings and weekends...his family always came first...what he wanted to do or where he wanted to be was never a priority.I am not incapable of doing things for myself and would hardly consider myself a weakling. I also would not say he is abusing his family....would it be better to be married to a total "slug" that never participated in a marriage, expecting the W to do everything, as a slave....but then again, how about if the "slug" never had an A?? Would that be a better mate?? Wouldn't the "slug" be abusing also, by acting as a "vegetable", expecting his family to maintain the marriage??For ilmf: Yes, I am most sincere in what I've said, and I do believe that some people out there would post on this forum as a joke, just to see the response. Trust me, I am not one of them.Ok, it is obvious that this man is a liar...maybe I just don't want to believe that he'd lie to me....and ok, for the benefit of a doubt, he probably is.....Your reference to the pot of boiling water was interesting....honestly, with the way my heart is torn with this MM right now, the pot of water wouldn't be so bad....And maybe this pain isn't punishment....I did a foolish thing by getting involved...I knew that from the beginning....but I followed my heart...and that's where it lead me.Sorry for the long post and thanks for your replies!

djmusicbox,...I believe you (you know that, from the note on sincerity before...)And that you have taken criticisms (and those aren't much fun whether they're justified or not, so I'm not going to get into "deserves" or any of that stuff) without being combative in your defense, nor particularly stubborn shows an element of grace on your part. I'll respect that, and you will not be subject to any scathing words from me (frankness, but nothing mean-spirited).Thanks for your direct replies.
Evidently you understood and gave reasonable consideration to everything I said, so certainly as a nobody-3rd-party, commenting, that's as much as I warrant.
...So much that there's really no point in me preaching or lecturing beyond that I already have.I only just repeat one point (and not as if I think you missed it the first time, I know you were attentive).It's that even if his wife has completely failed altogether to meet his ENs...
<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by ilmf:
Then all of that is his problem.<hr></blockquote>See? I know that you do...
And of the pain that we talked about - already now even if you do the best and "rightest" things and cut this fellow out of your life, you're already bound to have to deal with the real pain of the loss that you'll feel from it.
...and he will tooYou can't heal anything by "helping" with his ENs that his wife fail at. (see, that I am not supposing that anything you have said is anything but actually true).The burns will be deeper, the healing will be longer, and the scars will be more prominent for everyone who is touched by this.I am completely sincere too, when I say that I would rather see people doing well than that they ever suffer.It IS sad then that some people (whether they are men or whether they are women) have disappointing and unfulfilling marriages. There's really very little that a 3rd party can do for them, though... even if we see that they are kind and comical, and worthy people in all other regards we aren't really doing them favors if we step in and "help" with those ENs. Combine that with the fact that this person has some particular appeal for you (whereas if the guy was in the same sad strait in his marriage, but ghastly ugly and entirely incompatible in tastes and attributes you'd not be "helping" with his ENs) then....
...well, I guess even the simplest human relationships can be complicated to a point where analysis just leads us down many lost lanes.
...and that's why we have the "rules" established by the vows and commitments, those give us anchors when the other looser ties like nice smiles and witty humor may fray and be broken.If people who are in those sad straits hang on to that anchor, then there is a hope that the broken ties can be mended...
...and the truth is that some will lead lonely lives if they do that - but much of what makes or breaks a person just to be happy is from within, and that's not a magical spiritual thing, it's a conscious commitment to BE happy.That's that guy's bad marriage is HIS problem.OK...
I broke my promise about not preaching another sermon - sorry about that.I hope you well

To ilmf: Oops! Your "sermon" was indeed welcome! I did forget to mention your point on "Then all of that is his problem"....I do realize that his marriage is his problem....he does too. Long ago he told me that he would not end his marriage because of his kids. He believes kids should grow up in a home with 2 parents. I respect him for that decision, as it proves that he cares more about them than himself. He does everything he can for the sake of keeping a somewhat "happy home". For that, I feel he deserves credit.And (although we know its not right) maybe he justifies his affairs as a rare chance to do something "for himself", since he is usually last in getting ANY of his EN's filled....I do wish, more than anything, that he would have a happy home and satisfying marriage. I care about him enough to want him with his wife and kids, not with any OW, including myself.I never looked at it that way, but maybe I was trying to make his bad marriage my problem too by filling some of his unmet needs.... Why? Because I knew how much he did for others and how little he would do for himself. Since day 1, it was important to me to do whatever I could to make him happy...he even told me that he wasn't used to anyone trying to make HIM happy....(was that just another one of his lies???) He gave me so much joy and happiness, how could I not do the same for him??And how could he be happy from within?? It seemed he never saw a smile at home...only frowns, anger, and constant attempts to make everyone else happy. I was so happy spending time with him, that once he even told me that it seems I'm always smiling....it amazed him that I could be so cheerful....well, ask other people...I'm not always smiling....but whenever he was around, those smiles just came naturally. So was I wrong to do what I did for him??In spite of everything, I think he is doing his part in trying to hold the marriage together, as best he could. And I'm not saying his wife is totally to blame. It takes two people to make a marriage...attempts by only one person usually fail. I know that as a third party to this marriage, I was wrong. And I certainly didn't help matters on his homefront. But how can you not want to help someone that means so much to you and gives you so much, asking so little in return?

dj, Forget for a sec how morally wrong affairs are, the potential for destroying his home, marriage, lives of his kids, etc. What about you? <blockquote>quote:<hr>Yes, he is home evenings and weekends...his family always came first...<hr></blockquote>Why are you willing to settle for a man who can give you so little? Do you not believe that you deserve a man who can be fully and freely yours?I am sorry for your pain, truly. I do think that you have sold yourself short, and that the pain of letting him go should be viewed as constructive pain, not destructive pain. Kinda like the difference between surgery, which frees you from a cancerous growth, and the drain of your lifeforce that keeping that growth would mean.I do believe that you are meant for something better than this. But, you have to let go of this half-life to get there...Good luck--Kathi[ April 13, 2002: Message edited by: kam6318 ]

Kam6318, thanks for your words of support! I guess the reason why I accepted being with him whenever he was free was because...(and ok, I know I've said this dozens of times)...I loved him.Any time I spent with him (whether it was for minutes or hours) was precious. The length of time wasn't important; the quality of that time was. I was willing to be available whenever he was....a big mistake, I know. Funny, but when I think about it, he was not "movie star" material either....just an average guy, slightly "pudgy" in a cute way, with graying hair (which grayed alot more in the 2+ years we had)...but the attraction was there....it went beyond the physical to something deep inside....something special that no one else ever had...and I don't know if anyone else ever could.

dj,In the past, I have had married men interested in me....some of them were really tempting, handsome, desirable. And some of them had honestly crummy marriages. I told them when they had finalized their divorce...to look me up. Most of them never left their wives....just had affairs, but one of them actually did, and we dated for while a year later. If he wants to stay in a bad marriage for what ever reason...kids, religion....anything....that's something he has to decide....but it is categorically unfair to expect you to accept so little, and now another OW. No matter how wonderful he is...and I have no reason not to believe you...he has a deep flaw that will end up causing you great pain. You are already so hurt....I hate to see you hurt longer and I urge you to try to begin the healing process and separate yourself from him. It will hurt, but it will only hurt once....he will hurt you again and again....and you will probably have to take this step anyway....so do it now dj.

dj,
you really are amazing! I've been pretty rough on you, and you maintain your grace. You read thoughtfully, you take time to reply point by point. You are a super lady, and worthy of a man to match you. You come across as sincere and honest. I do come over very abrasively often, even when it's unintentional. I have a real "Thing" about people, especially women, taking "victim" roles - been there, done that, won't ever do it again, fighting my way out of codependency even as we speak. I apologise for my tone and hope that the rest of this comes over with the genuine desire I have to help you. Okay, so this MM does do home and kid stuff, or so his friends tell you. Please be aware that the people who vouch for his stories may well be getting their information from him and not from personal experience. Unless they have been in the house and seen his W glued to the computer, chatting busily with internet men friends, while the kids go hungry and her H runs around doing laundry and errands, how do they know this? Even if it is all too horribly true, his As may be the CAUSE of his wife's coldness and depressive behaviour, they may be the EFFECT. Whichever way round it is, I'm still sort of wondering how he makes the time for his As and all his recreational stuff if he's home every evening directly after work and spends every weekend with his family.... My first marriage was to a pathological liar who was not only an extremely abusive alcoholic, but also a gambler and an adulterer. He was very good at presenting himself as Mr. Wonderful Husband, and had his family and the few friends we had convinced that I was wh*ring around, and that my cold heart and laziness were driving him to drink. I never knew why I so often got lectured on wifely duties, Bible verses and all thrown in. I felt I must truly be an awful person somehow to be treated like that. After the divorce, then the truth came out about the stories he'd been telling as a smokescreen for his own activities, and to discredit me in advance should I pluck up the courage to complain about his behaviour. A woman I'd known for several years told me, with more than enough detail to convince me that it was true, what he'd told them. There were details she couldn't possibly have got from anyone but him. She said that she'd found it hard to believe, as well she should, seeing how often she came to my place over several years, and there was never another man there, I was always busy with housework, and in fact I babysat her youngest child while she went to work, etc. But he sounded so pathetic, she said, she and her H couldn't believe that he'd just make up stuff like that, sometimes he'd even be crying over the phone. What they didn't know was that the phone was at some bar, or some casino somewhere.He had me convinced that his drinking was all my fault, and while I knew very well that I was NOT wh*ring around, he kept me so raw and so offbalance with his accusations that I had two nervous breakdowns. Which reinforced his stories of what a dreadful wife I was - neurotic and hysterical as well as lazy, cold, nasty to the kids, and promiscuous. I got suspicious a couple of times; there were some weird phone calls from women... he always shouted me down and went on a rampage. Offense is the best defense. I only found out about the "gentlemen's clubs" and the "escorts" after I filed for divorce and he threw the information at me. He didn't tell me about his two female cousins he bedded; I found out about them a year after the divorce was final. So my anger is directed at least as much at myself and my XH as your MM. You come in very low on the anger scale! DJ, you seem to have taken his word for it he was with his family when he wasn't with you, slaving away to keep them all happy, sacrificing himself on the altar of duty, and entitling himself to snatch a few moments of happiness with you. How then did he meet #2, and develop his relationship with her to the point where it's ready to go sexual if it hasn't already? This is not accusatory! My scientific training it to ask relentless questions and look for real facts that are provable, that will stand up to the test of rigorous review. There's a lot of "noise" in this signal.As ILMF said, none of his marital problems are yours. It's up to him to get into counselling for himself whether or not his wife wants to do therapy for herself, and up to him to ensure that his kids are protected from his own weaknesses. It's not up to you to try make up to him for anything he may be deprived of in his life. It's up to you to protect yourself from your own weaknesses. I got miffed when you said God made you fall in love with this man; oh no, God didn't! There's another guy out there too, whose interests are directly opposite to those of God... and he, the Bible tells us, disguises himself as an angel of light to deceive and destroy. Love is not necessarily a gift from God. We are told that we shall know for sure whether something is of God or of the Devil if we look at its fruits. What are the fruits of this relationship you've been having? Is any of it in line with Scripture, or ordinary moral standards? Is anybody being hurt by it? How about you? Hon, truth can hurt, but it's the only thing that ever sets us free. The thing that really entangles us is the mesh of half-truths woven into a web of deceit.I really do wish you well, and hope you will cut yourself free.

dj, I rarely post here, because I also am an OW. But I've been conflicted and struggling and lurking here has helped me alot. After a few false tries I have broken things off with the MM I was involved with, a long term affair like yours, with deep feelings involved. It's very hard, believe me I know.You've gotten some great advice here already, but I thought I'd speak up because I thought it might help to hear from someone else in a similar boat. I have lurked and even participated some, on other boards for people involved in affairs. I have learned alot from those, and also of course from my own experience, as well as the stories here.Disregarding for sake of argument the chance your MM is just a complete user/predator/jerk...I'd bet at the very least the MM you've been involved with lacks the ability (or desire) to face his problems head on. I know, my MM says he HAS tried and his wife didn't care - maybe that's even true. But the truth is these people choose what to them seems the easy road with no bad fall out (because of course they assume their spouse will never know). To have an affair, rather than working on the marriage (trying their hardest to get their spouse to see the need and work with them) - because gee, that's hard and unpleasant to go through and they might even have to (gasp!) make changes themselves, or divorce and lose money, access to children, and the emotional support, domestic support, financial support they do get from their spouse. The pain of seperating from someone they do sincerely love, who they really don't want to lose. Yeah, the MM I was involved with admits he loves his wife too. Plus looking like the bad guy to all his friends, family and associates.The MM you are involved with likely tends to choose the easy way out, and the path of least resistance, least pain and unpleasantness (for the immediate), is uncapable or unwilling to have healthy, mature relating skills - as in being honest when there are problems and sincere in trying working them out fairly. He saw his options as #1 trying really hard to make his marriage work, #2 honorably admit defeat or no desire to work things out and divorce, or #3 have a affair and have a relationship that's "good" instantly, have 2 women in love with him/giving to him - at least one of whom is fresh and not yet drained from his taking, and not lose anything important to him (from his narrow viewpoint).I believe until/unless a person like this works on his own relationship skills problems they are incapable of a healthy relationship with anyone. These flaws, even in an affair, will also show in that relationship - I mean if he is unhappy with you, if you do something that hurts or annoys him, if he feels unhappy in your relationship he will not tell you, or give you such vague "hints" he'll THINK he did but you'd never see it. Then one day he'd be gone, complaining about things you had no clue about, and no opportunity to clear up misunderstandings or work out problems, ask forgiveness for unintended hurts. I don't know about you, but I don't want to be in such an unfair relationship. All in addition of course to the married part, which I agree with the MB's, should be enough in itself - don't mean to sound as if I disregard that, I only see more reasons in addition and think understanding those helps those of us who have been weak enough to fall for a married man.Regardless of who did what, and who's guilty of what in his marriage, he is demonstrating that he is the type of person who is at least afraid/too weak to deal with problems in a healthy and proactive way. Sure we can have sympathy for a tough marriage, and even their weakness in dealing with it. But getting emotionally involved with a man like this (in addition to the main reason, that he is married), is a pretty dumb thing to do. (Smiling in empathy here, 'cuz I fell for it too).I can't know how much he's said to you is true, might be mostly lies, might be mostly true or somewhere in between. But I can tell you he isn't capable of a healthy relationship right now with anyone. Until he works out his own problems in not being strong enough to face tough, unpleasant thing, for the best thing over the long haul, but chooses what seems to him easy and painless (or relatively so), and more instantly gratifying.I sympathize, and empathize with the MM I was involved with. I love him still, don't believe he is an ogre either. Just a weak man who doesn't have the ablility or the strength to deal with his real problems in the best way.I've also seen many times that men like this, even intentionally or unconsiously, seek out women who are giving and understanding, perhaps too much so, and then take and take emotionally until they are drained and empty. They feed on the emotional strength we had, are drawn to it (because no doubt their W is drained by now, poor lady!).Well, this became longer than I intended, but I hope some of this helps in some way. I see the weaknesses in the MM I was involved with and still love him, think he is basically a good person who just didn't have what it took to deal with things in a healthier way and made some dumb choices (like me), but although I can understand and care, I can no longer be victim to his inabilities. Until he sees his own weaknesses in all this, and works to improve them I know even if he were single he wouldn't be a good partner for me.We can love and care for people and still know they are not good for a romantic relationship, not allow ourselves to be victims to their big problems. In these cases not only because they are married, sadly we both missed out on that one, but also because they have serious personal problems to address before they are capable with anyone.Take care, I wish you strength and comfort as you go through this difficult time.*I wish MB's would create a topic for singles who like to read here to improve and learn for a future relationship. Juanita[ April 14, 2002: Message edited by: Juanita ]

Juanita, there just is no icon for you!!! Way to go!! Thousands of hugs!!! Cheers!! Balloons!!! Flowers!!!!When I grow up, I want to be like you.

I have received so many touching replies (and yes, even the stinging ones!). Everyone's support and encouragement is convincing me to make the right decision. I am trying to put my relationship with this MM (and the end of it) into perspective. I very much appreciate all of your help! I know I can't do it without you!! Being able to share this with people who understand and support me helps a great deal.And, a very special thank you to Juanita for sharing her similar experience. It looks like we've traveled the same road of falling in love with the wrong person. Your thread made me realize many things about my MM. I don't think he is capable of a healthy relationship and does take the easy way out of unpleasant situations.He had told me long ago, that before we met, he had 2 other "incidents", but they were not as involved as ours. In both cases, he claimed it was the woman who ended it, and it hurt him terribly. (Hey, maybe they realized sooner than I that he really wasn't Prince Charming after all!) But maybe it was just his way of giving me another "poor me" story, which I innocently believed. Or maybe it was his way of "getting rid" of them to make room for me.....Who knows?Many of your replies have made me realize that I more than likely was just another "conquest" in his long line of "friends". There were women before me, and I know more will follow. Maybe that is because of his lack of ability to hold a healthy relationship (even with his wife), as Juanita said. Quite a while ago, I mentioned the possibility of being "replaced" some day....he made no comment. I should have seen then what he really was....but I couldn't.He often told me that I was a great sex partner and did things to him he always dreamed of....that was true, why would he want someone else??And to justartingover, thank you for sharing your experience also. My heart goes out to you for the traumatic experience of your first marriage. No one should have to experience what you did. I am happy that things are better for you and wish you every success.And I have also realized that God didn't make me love this MM. It was my choice. But I wish I knew the purpose of it. Can anyone explain why it all happened? Was it just for us to share 2+ years of happiness and then heartbreak?? I know I will love him till my last breath....he left an impression on my heart which will never be erased. I also hope that my attempt at ending this relationship will not be a false start. I haven't heard from him in a few days (which is unusual). But when I do hear his voice or receive an email from him, I'm afraid that I'll just melt and not refuse anything he asks. How can I be strong enough to tell him to "get lost"? He's always had a power over me which I can't break...and he knows it...(and yes, it is that addiction thing....) I've been dumb enough to tell him that. I do expect to hear from him soon, but I'm scared of what will happen when I do.

DJ,Hope I don't lose this again. Yesterday, I wrote you a little story. The gist is this:A woman had an heirloom locket that was beautiful and had been in the family a long time. It always went to the first born daughter, but this woman had twins whose b-days were one date apart (late night/early am delivery). She was sad that she couldn't give both her girls the locket. When, on their birthdays, the time came to give the first born, she did so and the second was jealous. She stole the locket but it was soon found out. Then, she gave the second her gift. It turned out to be a locket that was fashioned after the first with her birthstone on it. It was even more special to her than the original because it was made for her, it was new, and she could start her own heirloom tradition.I don't remember exactly what you said that caused me to think of this. Something about how you thought your MM was the perfect person that you always dreamed of but his wife just happened to get him first. I will try to find it. I'm afraid to lose my post though. <blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by DJ
Since the second I met him, I realized that he was the guy I always dreamed about as a little girl....my "knight in shining armor"....the guy I'd live "happily ever after" with and have kids with....only I knew that would never happen because his W "won the prize" many years ago <hr></blockquote>I am not saying we don't have a choice about whom we marry. But I am saying that he knowingly gave himself to his wife. He made a commitment and you need to stick to it. He's not a "prize" to be won. He is a person who makes choices and he chose her.Now, you chose to steal what you could of another woman's H. But you ought to know that there is someone out there equally special and even more suited for you. Now, I suggest that you pray for your future H and family. God will bless your efforts and provide just what you need in a H.
He will also provide protection for your relationship. Just don't go to God and say, "Get me that one." Ask Him to provide for you and to help you be receptive to His guidance for a mate.HTH,Hoping

DJ, this is something that will be very hard for you. Whether or not we BSs like it, often our WS and the OP do love each other. And whether or not we like the idea, they do experience real pain at ending the A. It seems as if MM is moving on, but you are left with heartbreak.However, it can be done. If you go to the top of the page and click on Home, then check out the Quick Links on the right hand side, you will find a section on Ending the Affair. How the Affair Should End. Basically, this section outlines extraordinary precautions.First, you could write a No Contact letter. Although in your case there is no husband to consider, you could say that you have realised that the A was a selfish indulgence on both your parts, and you owe it to your self to end it, and that you expect him to respect your decision and not ever try to contact you again. This is a vital part of the closure. My FWH wrote a No Contact letter to his FOW after they finally ended it; the letter was never mailed. But writing it was, to him, evidence that he had himself shut the door, locked it and given me the key, of his own free will. That letter is in a special folder in our stationery drawer; if FOW ever writes to him again, her letter will be returned unread with his letter as a cover note. Then, you change your email address or block him from your list of recipients. You change your phone number, or put caller ID on the line and block any number he may try to call you from - home, work, cell, wife's cell, whatever. It's actually better psychologically speaking to CHANGE the email addy and the phone number. Again, it emphasises to you that it's OVER and spares you an enormous amount of pain from triggers. You won't be hoping for/dreading a message from him every time you log on, or the phone rings at certain times. At work, you allow all your phone calls to go to voicemail, and delete his messages unlistened to as soon as you recognise his voice. If necessary, you move to a new job/apartment/house/city. Again, a clean break. If you work with OP, changing jobs is a very very good idea.For me and my FWH, it is not possible to move. However, we repainted all the rooms in our apartment, rearranged our furniture in drastically new alignments, gave away anything she'd ever given him, destroyed personal mementoes, got new bedding, bought a new tent. NOT as an act of revenge on my part!! To avoid as much pain as possible for either of us, by removing as many triggers as possible.There is a very good book you might find helpful: Surviving the Loss of a Love, by John-Roger and a co-author whose name I forget. This is one thing that I don't think many OP realise: that when the FWS returns to the marriage, the FBS is not exactly ecstatic. We too have lost the person we loved, and sometimes we find that s/he is actually dead, or never existed.For both you and Juanita, there is yet another wonderful book: Harville Hendrix's Keeping the Love You Find. This is fantastic stuff; helps you understand WHY you are attracted over and over to the same kind of person, WHY it happens over and over that you get into destructive relationships. I'm codependent, and my goodness me, this book really showed me the destructive pattern I myself have followed in all my relationships. More importantly, it allowed me to determine WHY. Now I'm free to act consciously, rather than keep on in the same old way. I don't remember whether it's .org or .com, but a search for imago therapy will give you the home page.Hey, I do burble on a bit. BTW, MB does have a forum called PreMarriage and the Early Years. I've never visited it so won't actually recommend it. I wish it were mandatory for schools to teach self-awareness, relationship and parenting skills. How many of us ever use calculus?? How many of us come unstuck with parents, friends, lovers and kids?? Of those who use calculus, how many find it helps in relationship difficulties?Further, I think it would be wonderful to have a prescribed class before marriage. Just like first getting the learner's licence and then the driver's. Engagement/commitment entitles one to a learner's licence, and only after both coursework and practice can one get the marriage licence. Okay, I know I'm dreaming.... Hang in, DJ. I'm really sorry I allowed my anger at myself to blast out onto you.

dj,I am really touched by how many people came out and shared their stories and advice to you. I hope this helps you...I know you can do this!....and I hope you will let us know what happens. Be strong. God is with you.

Thank you juststartingover for your kind words, it made my day [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I'll check out your book suggestion, I've worked through some of those problems over the years, but know I have more to learn. Amusing perhaps that I have in the past chosen wrong guys who didn't appear wrong for a while, and it was actually a comfort to think I at least knew the one really big flaw my MM had from the start. Don't mean to make light of things, but sometimes we just have to laugh at ourselves.dj, your MM's story of past OW's ending things with him and hurting him rings true for me, for the simple fact that lots of these men never end the affair themselves, either the OW gets fed up and ends it, or his W finds out and puts her foot down. Another reason why we have to get our own selves out of the situations we got ourselves into. These men also often tend to come back, or try, the reason you've gotten excellent advice to avoid contact. I understand what you mean about feeling your MM has power over you, to override your intentions, your common sense. Don't know about you, but that's how I got into this in the first place. Not that I don't take full responsibilty for my own actions and decisions, but this man was someone I knew and trusted in my past, and there is just something in me that responds to him beyond other men. What I mean is I can resist attractive and desirable men in general who are wrong for some reason, but this guy, well, I was blindsided because I was so used to being able to hold to my common sense and my morals and my own best interest.Your MM sounds scarier to me than the one I was involved with. He sounds like a serial cheater, and sadly yes, that you are just one in the parade through his life. He doesn't tell you he loves you. He's already admittedly checking out the next one. This man has serious problems dj. But I know you love him, and I can't dismiss that, so I won't pursue that part of things [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] You mention you wish you knew the purpose of your falling in love with this man. Was it just to end in heartbreak. I've struggled with similar thoughts and I'll tell you what I think. I can't tell you the purpose, still haven't figured out that one, LOL. But I do think that love is never wrong. I think we shouldn't beat ourselves up over loving these men. What you DO with your love, about your love, and probably even what you allow to be done TO you because you love is what can be very wrong. My experience also humbled me. I have always had good morals, tried to be a good person and not hurt others, had a strong faith, and never been tempted by attractive, willing MM's, or other obviously inappropriate man. I have always had a pretty low regard for cheaters, and women who would cheat with them. Boy, have I been taken down several pegs!! I have now learned that sometimes even basically good, smart people can get caught up with something under the "right" enough circumstances, and I certainly don't have any right to judge. It never entered my mind to avoid innocent time (and was at first innocent - at least on my part) with an old friend I had NO romantic feelings for (at that time), because I had never had trouble with keeping things merely friendly and appropriate with other men before. My point is maybe part of the purpose for me, or at least something I learned about myself, was to humble me, realize under certain circumstances even I could fall into a relationship with a married man, and give me more compassion and empathy for the weaknesses and mistakes of others.Because I understand about the influence hearing his voice, even reading an email can have, especially at first, when you are struggling and hurting, I suggest you break it off with an email, or short note, saying only that you can no longer be involved with a married man, and then do NOT take his calls, if you can make it impossible for him to leave you a voice message, and block his email (doubt you'd be strong enough to delete a message unread, I know I couldn't [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] )It might sound cold. I told myself I owed it to my MM to break things off over the phone (we are LD, so in person wasn't an option). It never worked. This last time I finally sent him an email. You probably aren't strong enough if you hear his voice, or read his emails, I understand that completely. Do what you must to protect yourself from that. This man does NOT deserve an honorable break up dj, he is a player who doesn't love you.It isn't easy, I know. Post when you feel weak, or need encouragement. There are other sites that give you support on this kind of thing too, but the ladies here have been pretty supportive. I know the few times I've posted I've appreciated the kindness, even though I'm kind of an interloper.Hang tough dj, you'll find someone who deserves your love and can return it, and in the meantime we're both better off with no one than these messed up men [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Juanita

Djmusicbox,Early on I could not help but to note your grace! (some of us here may judge and say, “she ought”, but even so, you do!) No more “sermon” from me this time (no promise of a short post either though, it just won’t be a sermon). I’m all sermonned out on this one anyway, and someone so receptive as you (the grace) doesn’t really need it once all the main and basic points are made.
. . . Instead, I would like to just hopefully leave you some encouragement.It was odd to me this evening as I was reading and catching up – the circumstance which you appeared to the forum in was bound to get you some less-kind replies. . . and it did at first, but as I was reading I saw that I wasn’t the only one who noted your grace in that – there were others, and they were saying things like, “you deserve someone who can give you that 100% commitment”, and so on. No wonder this fellow was attracted to YOU. . . certainly not every one of your attributes is as grand (something was lacking for you to get into such a fix), but I would say that if your spirit is thus and so humble as such (taking your punches well, as I had said) then it must be that in all likelihood you are a pleasant person in most regards to begin with. (Here comes the “encouragement” part) And with that being so, I’ll warrant that you won’t have any difficulty in attracting someone more viable.You said you believe you will love this fellow for the rest of your life, he has made such an impression on you.
. . . OK, you’ve been sincere on all accounts and I believe you no less in this
So you will. . . but remember (ok, partial sermon) my earlier bit about the difference between love as a behavior and love as a feeling. We choose our behavior, but we CULTIVATE (or un-cultivate) our feelings. It may then be that there will ever and always be a bit of a tender spot in your heart for the fellow, verily. But once and when you meet that more “viable” fellow that I mentioned in the paragraph above, and he matches your ideal for a man, and he begins to spend time with you and the two of you cultivate those good, good, and better feelings, then I think it is reasonable to believe that whereas you believe you’ll love this MM of yours forever (and you may) it will become less, and less compared to the newer (and more legitimate) love (feeling) you may find.
. . . Right now, in the anguish of losing a “passion” it may even be that you are willing to separate yourself from your MM but so cherish the feeling that you don’t want it to diminish, but that’s only just for a while, too. (If you do feel that way. . .)You said you wish you knew the “purpose”. . . can anyone explain it to you, you asked. . .
Well now THAT’s quite a tall order! “Purposes” are many and multi-faceted and often hard to define. . . You’re imminently the one more qualified to answer that question. “Why” did it happen? Well. . . you’ve already taken such grandly graceful accountability for all that’s been said here so far. I’ll be one to bet that if you go and sit quietly and just think about it all and do some brutally honest Q&A with yourself (that’ll be cool because none of us really needs to hear your conclusions so we won’t be able to bust on you if we don’t approve of all of your answers) then you can settle those things for yourself.You said you were concerned that you may not be strong enough, that you may “melt”. It’s a very reasonable concern, really.
But you can do it. . . first, your grace is a great testimony to your strength as such. It’s a different kind of strength, to be humble and receptive, but still a matter of a positive character of spirit. You can do it – Acknowledge the very real concern that you’ve suggested, and with the knowledge of it then you can prepare yourself. (When I am weak, then I am strong. . . has a couple of interpretations, one suggests that once you find out where your armor is thinnest then you can seek either to reinforce those parts or keep those parts less exposed when the time comes, think about it).
Using the logic and reason you’ve already taken so to heart, steel yourself and do what you’ve resolved to do.
. . . Still sounds a little uncomfortable, eh? Well then if it’s like that it might be like jumping into a pond where the water is livable but just a little too cold at first. If you slip in really slow you’ll get to suffer the cold from one end to the other as you submerge and it’ll be tough. Only difference is, this isn’t like jumping in. . .it’s jumping out.
Don't just swish your toes and wonder if you wanna. . . step boldly up to the edge and jump! (out!)OK. . .it was long, but it wasn’t a sermon!
I hope that you encouraged, and I hope that it encourages you even more to know that (though I am no one to you) you have got my confidence that you’ll succeed.Be well

Hi dj, just wondering how you are doing today?Juanita

Well, I feel so hollow and empty inside and miss him terribly; but I am trying to be strong. In spite of everything, I don't know how I can face life without him. All of your replies help so much. My apology for this long thread, but I want to respond to what a few of you have said.Its been almost a week since I've heard from him (which is probably good, maybe he decided to avoid the unpleasant situation of telling me we're through). Maybe OW2 is his priority now, like I used to be...and that is what hurts so bad. I can accept him being with his family, as that is where he should be, but not with her.Hoping4future, thank you for sharing the locket story; it is beautiful. I guess some things that happen in life could be a blessing in disguise; for better things may be waiting....I wish I could believe that to be true in my case.Yes, my MM knowingly gave himself to his wife years ago; and had 2 kids with her. I've been trying to analyze things. He often said that he was a "geek" in high school, not popular and never dated. He only had 1 girlfriend before he met his wife. When that relationship ended, he was very hurt. Soon after, he met his future wife. I got the impression that he really wasn't ready for marriage, but she came along, found him vulnerable and a good catch. Perhaps his "curiosity" for women now (he is 42) is his way of finding what he missed before marriage. Whatever, that is not the issue here.Juststartingover, thank you for your references to those helpful links and books. I was already familiar with the MB link on Ending the Affair. I agree that avoiding contact by the somewhat drastic measures listed would be best; however, they are impossible for me. Your suggestion of a No Contact letter sounds great and I may attempt it. I also need to remove many of those triggers at home, as you have done. As you say, it is a vital part of closure. But it must hurt before it can heal. Good luck with your situation and recovery. I wish the best for you!ILMF, your encouragement was welcome, as were your kinds words. I suppose I did cultivate my feelings of love for this guy. Now I just need to un-cultivate them!! I do understand your point that when I meet that more viable guy who may be out there, I will begin to cultivate love for him as much, if not more than what I feel now. I do hope that will be true.As for the "purpose" of what happened....I'm still thinking on that one, but haven't come up with any sensible answer other than the fact that I was so stupid to get involved, when I knew better. I let my feelings get in the way of logic, reason and strength. Your confidence in me is encouraging and I thank you!!!!!Everyone who is offering their advice, encouragement and support are wonderful!! It means so much to me!Juanita, reading your replies, I feel I have found a special friend who has shared the same feelings of love, confusion and pain of this humbling experience. So much of what you have said is very true for me also.My reason for getting involved was the same as yours....that strong power he had which controlled me. I felt possessed by him. Would you believe I even ran errands for him when he asked, so he could use that time to spend with me instead?? I would change my plans in an instant or miss work for a chance to be available to him. He knew I could never refuse him.But, one difference was that I didn't know my MM until the one day (2+ yrs. ago) when he walked into my life and I was hooked! That is the funny thing....as soon as we met it was like we knew each other forever; we instantly bonded. We were never "strangers"; in a sense it felt like we knew each other from a previous life, or something....very weird!!! He agreed that we got along great and were so compatible. Since we enjoyed the sports, music, antiques and more, we had lots to talk about...so why not spend "innocent" time together as friends? We went to antique auctions and sporting events. (We even took his kids...they knew me as "Dad's female friend".) The kids liked me and we always had a great time. To me, it was like being in heaven...spending time with a guy I loved and his kids. He enjoyed the compansionship...even the kids would say that "Mom wasn't interested in things Dad likes to do," and she rarely went along on family outings.Then one day, he began instigating more...and it just seemed so natural to become physical. The feeling was so beautiful, real and perfect. Everything happened so easily and naturally for us. I agree with your thought that love could never be wrong. Our love for these guys wasn't wrong...the guys were! But we went into it with our hearts...not to hurt anyone or to destroy a marriage. And, as you said, we're both better off without them.This indeed was a humbling incident and believe me, I've gone down a few pegs also!!! Like you, I've always had strong morals, values and beliefs. Marriage and committment are important to me and I never had a good opinion of those who strayed. But somehow I got myself tangled in this web of love, deceit and pain....Your point about my MM being a serial cheater really hit home. I never considered that, but it seems so true. Yes, he does appear to have serious problems. I don't think he'll ever stop having a curosity for women. When he first told me about OW2, I was devastated....but he kept telling me that it wasn't ME....it was HIM....that I did nothing wrong to cause him to want involvement with someone else, and he is very happy with what we have. He assured me that he is not bored with me, he cares about me and wants our friendship to continue. But, he will NOT refuse the chance to become physical with her, if she agrees.I should hate this guy with a passion...but I can't. I never want to see him hurt, but I keep hoping that she will refuse him. But, she might fall under his spell like I did. With one look at those intense eyes of his, she might become just as gullible as me. I do hope and pray she is able to say NO, although it will hurt him. And, like you said, he doesn't deserve an honorable break-up, but I just can't hurt him.On the other hand, I love him so much that if being with her makes him happy, then I want that too. Oh, what is wrong with me??? Why can't I just hate him....it would be so much easier....When he told me all this, I'm ashamed of what I did....it was so DUMB....I told him that I will still welcome him back if he still wanted me....whether he had been with her or not!!!! It didn't matter to me, as long as I could still have him. (And this is a guy who doesn't even love me....WHY, WHY, WHY did I do that???) Is there any hope for me??? Maybe my situation is beyond control. I will try my best to do the right thing. I just miss him so much that I don't care anymore. I think of him constantly and cry.As I've said before, it helps so much to be able to share this and get advice and support. Everyone on this site is the GREATEST!! I can't thank all of you enough!!!!!

(((((djmb))))No screeds from me tonight. I feel your pain. Grieving is a natural part of losing anything we love, and the greater the love, the greater the loss. It's okay to take time out just to feel your feelings and validate them. Sometime ago, on In Recovery, there was a very valuable thread going on a similar theme - grieving the loss, which is like death, and the stages of denial, bargaining, anger, acceptance and guilt. I think it was Leilana who posted it, and that it was on Resentment. Between us all we got some really great resources together - books, websites and the like. Unfortunately I lost my bookmarks when I was cleaning up my screen and hit delete by accident on the marker I did want to keep! I'll see if I can find it for you.Have you ever read "Women Who Love Too Much?" by Robin Norwood. Hang in.

<blockquote>quote:<hr> Is there any hope for me??? <hr></blockquote>Of course there is. You're here honestly seeking help and guidance, aren't you?As for how you can go on, you'll just have to learn that one, and it's hard. I've been there.I once was talking to an aquaintance in a bar. He said how important it was to find a man you can't live without. I disagree. I've been with too many men that I thought that I couldn't live without, turned out that I could - quite comfortably, given time. It is much more difficult to find someone you can live WITH. You do deserve someone who will love you for you, and to have your own committed relationship and family with. That's why it's so good that MM is out of the picture. You will never find what you need and deserve as long as you are focusing your attention on MM.Hang in there! *virtual hug*

DJ,After my break-ups, I would be sad and hurt, but after a while, I would begin to see what a jerk some of the guys I was with were. As the feelings of love fade, you will see. I had a boyfriend that I "loved". I loved him for years and even after I got married (did I already tell you this?), but I hated him at one point and now, I have little more than indifference for him.On de-cultivating...to do the same with a garden, you just leave it and let it get over-grown. That's what no contact will do for you. He won't promise you he's sorry. He won't melt your heart with that look. But, you must maintain no contact. If you change your number, try to get it unlisted or he might be able to find you. You must do these things. Right now you do care, that's why you're here. If you have contact, you might not care so much. End it for good RIGHT NOW.HTH,Hoping

And as long as we're talking gardening...It took two years to maintain this, it will take a while to let it go. It's habit.But, it doesn't take long for weeds to seed. Perhaps you should adopt the dandelion as your personal reminder? [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Also, I am one who would like to know how things go, as well.Hoping

bump for Travln_T

DJ,I haven't read all of the posts..but I'd like to advise..if you REALLY love this man as much as you say..then end the relationship with him..maybe someone here can help you write him a No Contact letter, and tell him if he contacts you again you'll be forced to contact his wife..and let her know what is going on..yes, it would devastate her, but no more than her suspecting he's cheating and not knowing for sure..that I think hurts even more..the NOT knowing but suspecting..if it takes getting a restraining order for him to make sure he stays away then do that too...Yes it will hurt like crazy to end the relationship, it will feel like you are being ripped apart inside..but LOVE Yourself even more
and end it..YOU DESERVE BETTER THAN THIS GUY!!!Look at it this way...if he is cheating on his wife now with you and has been for two years..
and now is going to start seeing someone else..
would you ever trust him in a marriage??? Wouldn't you always wonder where he was at night?? And also think about this..if your sleeping w/ ONLY HIM, and he's not only sleeping w/ you but
his wife, and now a third person, and who knows how many others...what type of disease do you want him to give you and his wife??? What disease is YOUR life worth to you??? Is it worth aides? herpes? an STD?? Think about it, what disease do you want to possibly pass on to your children or to your future husband??Just tell the man you've been really thinking about this..and it's time for you to move on with your life..and yes, if that means moving someplace else, changing your phone number, whatever..then do it..

DJ, Read through some of your posts..and in one you asked "why would God allow this to happen?"Well, in my experience it's to teach us a lesson..
It was to teach you some very hard lessons about love and life..and about yourself, We get tempted we can fall..it can test our strength..and we can learn that we all make mistakes, but are still loveable..you can take the things you've learned through this and help others who may begin walking in your shoes, and have compassion for them..1. Your not perfect..
2. Men aren't perfect..
3.we all have weaknesses..
4. you know how much it really hurts to love someone..and let them go..5. You found this site and are learning just
what you want in a relationship..and as you read
more here, you'll learn more about what is most important to you..what your needs are..6. As you look back over the past two years with this man and any other relationships you've had you'll find things you enjoyed in all of them..
and things you hated..take the things you liked about these men..write them down and pray for those qualities in a future mate..

Sometimes I think I'm going to be ok....then other times I feel like I can't live without this guy. But, that must be part of the grieving process. Yes, it is like a death...and I can't let go. I never knew I could hurt this bad. But, I never thought I would lose him...(and if I did, I expected it to be because of his attempt to better his marriage, NOT because he found another OW!!)...I wish I could seen the real him sooner....maybe it pain wouldn't be so bad. How could I be so blind and dumb??Juststartingover, thank you for your kind words. If you do find the thread on grieving, or anything else you think would help, I'd appreciate it so much. All I've done is cry...I've heard of the book you referred to....I should read it.ThornedRose, thank you for your advice as well. I am considering a No Contact letter. In some of my earlier posts, I did mention that his wife was suspicious for some time, as she knew who I was. He never hid the fact that we were "just friends" (as he called it) from her. I realize how painful that must be for her.And yes, I have learned a lesson too. Your list of points were beautiful. #4 is what I hope I'll be able to do, but I don't want to. I especially like #6. This guy had every quality I've ever dreamed of in a man (except for those 2 flaws of lying and cheating!!!). Without those, he would be the "perfect" man, if there was such a thing. No matter how hard I could pray, I don't think there could ever be anyone who I could love as much...And yes, I do feel as if I'm being ripped apart inside. I know it is best to end this and I'm for him that sometime another OW might tell his wife. I'm a kind and loving person...I could never do that to him, even in spite of my pain. I will never hurt him. How can you hurt someone you love??I don't think I could cry any harder than I did last night. All day today I've been so tempted to call his voice mail, just to hear it. All I do is remember the good times we had and how sweet and caring he was...and how he always made me smile, no matter how sad I was.I never mentioned that although he lives 20 miles away, he works close to where I live and work (moving or quitting my job is not an option). Occasionally, we'd spot each other on the road, and my job often brings me into contact with his place of business, so it is unavoidable that I'll see him. But, since he may not want contact with ME (due to his new interest in OW2), maybe that won't be a problem.Although I've been trying hard to focus on what this guy really is....a liar, cheater, user, betrayer (and so much more), I still can't hate him. I can even say he is an uncaring jerk, and leave a trail of broken hearts in his path. Is he worthy of this pain I feel? I doubt he feels any pain or sense of loss as I do; he may have moved on to the "excitement" of OW2. I can say bad things about him, but it doesn't stop the hurt. I still love him deeply. (Guess it is time to let those weeds starting taking control of the garden....)And maybe there is hope for me after all; especially knowing that I have the support of so many wonderful people. I am trying to be strong and keep telling myself that I can do this.He always told me that he doesn't want to hurt me...and I always told him that he couldn't. Well, fact is...HE didn't hurt me....I hurt myself by becoming so involved.Now, with everyone's help, I realize how deceiving he was....that's funny, because he always said that honesty in our relationship was important to him. He stressed that so many times. So, naturally I believed every word he said....even knowing that he told those "little white lies" at home. Looking back, I wonder just how many lies he told me.A few months ago when he said he didn't love me, it hurt because I was sure he did. But it was ok, too. (Hey, he was honest on that one...got to give him credit for that, I guess!). As long as he cared for me, I was happy; it didn't have to be love. As long as we spent time together I could accept his feelings. But now, I don't even have that caring....just thinking about him always made me smile...now I cry....without him, life doesn't look bright anymore....

Dj,I wish I could seen the real him sooner....maybe it pain wouldn't be so bad. How could I be so blind and dumb?TR-You DID SEE THE SIGNS!!! You just choose to ignore them--1. He's married to someone else..How Much bigger of a sign do YOU need??? It doesn't make you dumb..just young with Life's lessons still to learn..DJ-I realize how painful that must be for her.TR- Add about 100 times the hurt you feel and you may begin to understand how his wife will feel..when she finds out..she's been with him for how many years? she's trusted him and had his children..depended on him to be there for her emotionally, I wonder how many times she's needed him emotionally and he wasn't there..(and this from someone who had the Emotional affair, I was betrayed emotionally long before I did, and should have left my marriage before I hit that)And yes, I have learned a lesson too. Your list of points were beautiful. #4 is what I hope I'll be able to do, but I don't want to. I especially like #6. This guy had every quality I've ever dreamed of in a man (except for those 2 flaws of lying and cheating!!!). Without those, he would be the "perfect" man, if there was such a thing. No matter how hard I could pray, I don't think there could ever be anyone who I could love as much...TR- And in some ways your right..you could never love someone as much..but you can love someone more..But, You must learn to love yourself first..
and learn that you deserve to be treated with respect..and this man does not respect you..
nor his wife not even himself-- trust me..I've been in his shoes..and I know I had no respect for myself, nor my ex..and I also know my ex had no respect for me or himself..by how he treated me and how he treats his own body, and I beleived I deserved to be treated that way..I have learned to have that respect for myself, and that I deserve to be treated w/ respect..which is the biggest reason I am no longer married..I don't hate my ex..I hate how he treated me, and himself..and how I treated him and myself in return..I know that I have changed..and he hasn't and I couldn't continue to allow myself to be treated that way..if I did..I would be responsible for continuing to hurt myself..then I'd be the stupid one for staying and allowing the abuse to continue..DJ-And yes, I do feel as if I'm being ripped apart inside. I know it is best to end this and I'm for him that sometime another OW might tell his wife. I'm a kind and loving person...I could never do that to him, even in spite of my pain. I will never hurt him. How can you hurt someone you love??TR- Hmmmmm....Read over the posts on this sight..
read up on LOVE BUSTERS!!! We hurt those we love out of not understanding, lack of communication skills, and treating each other with respect..DJ-I don't think I could cry any harder than I did last night. All day today I've been so tempted to call his voice mail, just to hear it. All I do is remember the good times we had and how sweet and caring he was...and how he always made me smile, no matter how sad I was.TR- Also remember he's married..and he's lied to you over the years..Although I've been trying hard to focus on what this guy really is....a liar, cheater, user, betrayer (and so much more), I still can't hate him. I can even say he is an uncaring jerk, and leave a trail of broken hearts in his path. Is he worthy of this pain I feel? I doubt he feels any pain or sense of loss as I do; he may have moved on to the "excitement" of OW2. I can say bad things about him, but it doesn't stop the hurt. I still love him deeply. (Guess it is time to let those weeds starting taking control of the garden....)TR- You don't have to hate him...hate what he's done..hate the actions..not the person..
even knowing that he told those "little white lies" at home. Looking back, I wonder just how many lies he told me.TR- Little White Lies??? What classifies as a Little White Lie?? A lie is a lie is a lie..and he's probably told you many..A few months ago when he said he didn't love me, it hurt because I was sure he did. But it was ok, too. (Hey, he was honest on that one...got to give him credit for that, I guess!). As long as he cared for me, I was happy; it didn't have to be love. As long as we spent time together I could accept his feelings. But now, I don't even have that caring....just thinking about him always made me smile...now I cry....without him, life doesn't look bright anymore....TR- Your life will seem brighter now..because Now you are free to meet a wonderful man who is single and available to spend ALL their time with you..
and not just give you a little piece of what he thinks you deserve..They will be able to give you
ALL of themselves..and not just pieces..You are now able to climb up to the table of life and order your own steak dinner...not just settle for table scraps..

Hang in, DJ. You only have to make it through one minute at a time. That's what pulls me through often, when the tidal wave is hanging offshore... I can do this for one minute. And the minutes do go by....I am a personality of all-or-nothing, black-or-white so often I do sort of overweight things, if you see what I mean. However, to me the lies MM tells his BW are not small or white. They're huge and very very black indeed. Saying he was "just friends" with you is a most enormous lie. And on that foundation he built a series of castles of lies about the time he spent with you and his other OW.TR put it well: you don't have to hate the person, but look at the actions, at the fruits. Will look for that thread today.Cyberhug.

I just have one question: If he is such a model husband and father, when does he find the time for all three women: his wife, you and OW#2? Does he have a job? I find it incredible from what you described.

Well, ThornedRose, I can add you to the list of those sharing such good advice! With everyone's help, I am beginning to look at this guy differently. But, its another bad night....I'm crying so hard....I don't think I can make it without him....and I'm trying, I really am.....Yes, I did choose to ignore the signs (and there were many). But I'm not that young, so I should have known better. His daily attention and contact overwhelmed me. Maybe it showed my lack of self-respect too...if all I could have were "pieces" of him, it was ok...being the OW, I certainly didn't deserve more. I greatly respected his family situation, and knew his place was with them, not me, which made time with him even more precious. I did this to myself. HE did nothing to cause me pain...he was a temptation that I wasn't strong enough to resist.He has been married for 19 years. But, I do believe that he has always been there (and always will be there) for his wife emotionally (and physically), as his family is most important to him. I believe he would NEVER leave them under ANY circumstances.Our time together was usually quick (sometimes VERY quick). He made it clear that he had a family waiting for him. In our relationship, he took on the role of being "the boss"....we only met on his terms...when it was convenient for HIM. Without a doubt, he was the leader in this relationship.And yes, a lie is a lie; ugly, dark and enormous. I didn't mean for it to sound like I take lying lightly. I don't. Since he stressed honesty so often, its hard to believe that he lied to me too. But now, given the circumstances, I'm sure he did. At home, he found ways to "stretch the truth" a bit so it didn't really seem like a lie. But, that doesn't make it right.Juanita opened my eyes to what this man really is...a serial cheater. It is a sad fact which I hate to admit, but it is obvious. I don't think one woman could EVER satisfy him. (Thinking back to the beginning of our relationship, he made it clear that he wouldn't become physical if I had "slept around" before meeting him. I didn't think much of it before, but now I know why...) He did admit to me that he had 2 "incidents" before me...only 2???? I knew he enjoyed what we shared and never thought he would want to be with anyone else (other than his wife). How wrong I was again!!With OW2, he claims that she was "sending him signals" that she wants to become physical...it wasn't HIM instigating anything, it was her, and he won't refuse. That could be true, he is irresistable. But long ago, he mentioned that I "sent him signals" too and we joked about it....think there could be a pattern here??I don't want to believe this either, but I'm almost starting to feel that he gets involved with hardly any feelings at all....to him it just satisfies a physical need...(ok, he said he cared for me a great deal...ha) When the time comes he is ready to move on to OW3, 4, 5, or whatever, whenever he feels ready for a change. That is funny too, because I always thought of us as "making love"...not just "having sex" for the physical pleasure of it.As for his wife, I'm almost certain that she knows he has a problem. She does keep a very close watch on him....calling his cell phone often and wanting to know exactly where he is at and when he'll be home. I always got the impression that she checks up on him....now I can see why.It is interesting that when their second child was born (13 yrs. ago), it was a mutual decision to not have any more kids. She encouraged him to get "fixed"....although he says he was reluctant, he agreed to do so to make her happy. Maybe since he'd never have to worry about explaining an OC, that was the dose of "freedom" he needed to begin filling his curiosity for women. Maybe too, thats why she doesn't trust him.One more realization I've come to...it hurts, but I'm not sure he is capable of loving anyone. Oh, he claims he loves his wife dearly (and I hope it is true), but is it really love when he commits the ultimate sin (adultery) against her?? Putting her on that pedestal at home for all to see "proves" (at least to himself) his great "love" for her....but is it real??In spite of the pain I feel from all this, my heart goes out to his wife. It appears he covers up his disgusting behavior by catering to her and telling her (and everyone else) how very much he loves her. It seems to be his way of "making things right" with her....and again, another lie.Well, its been a week since I've heard from him, so I haven't had the chance to tell him its over. I'm beginning to think that contact from him is HIS way of telling ME its over.I've never been a BS (as many of you have), but now I know how unbearable the pain must be. Loving someone shouldn't cause so much hurt. Taking it one minute at a time, as Justartingover said, seems like the only way to deal with it....but oh, those minutes can be long and seem to last forever! I feel so guilty too, for causing his wife even more suspicion and pain than she already must have had. I wouldn't want anyone to have to suffer this pain.I cry so hard, then I stop and think I'll be ok....life doesn't seem worth living without him. I don't need that steak dinner...with him in my life I'd be happy for those table scraps.
Am I crazy to think that way???A note to Like Water For Chocolate: Incredible it is!! As you can imagine, he is constantly on-the-go. He holds a full-time physically demanding job, attends his kids school functions, plays the role of "taxi" driver for them and their friends, runs errands for his wife and kids, does household chores, and STILL manages to find a few short minutes for himself. He ALWAYS amazed me!!! Could be that's why he was so easy to love!! He always fit everyone into his busy schedule...and never complained!!

No, although I can never hate him, I am trying hard to hate the actions, the fruits of what he's done...but I just can't do it.

djmusicbox:I admire you courage to post here. I also admire your desire to do the right thing. I think people sometimes lose sight of the fact that SOME people really DO want to do the right thing.My advice would be short and simple:Terminate all contact. Move if nessesary. Start a new life and meet someone to settle down and get married with. Now that you have made this mistake you should be able to identify the type in the future.Get out. Get away. Pursue the American dream and family.That's all.
Scott

I want to add:Love has stages. The most passonate and expressive stage is the infatuation stage.Every person that we are infatuated with seems like the "end all and be all" in our lives. The problem with affairs is that the people get stuck in the infatuation stage and so it never has time to settle down into anything else.Mark my words that if you end this now... you will find someone else within the next year or two that will make you wonder what you ever saw in this person. Then you can be in an infatuation stage with him, and it can settle down and grow into deeper lasting love.Scott

You've said many times about how his wife does not send him cards or anything for his birthday, and doesn't join him in his activities.That's one side of the story, and here's a probable other side.This is not the first time he has done this. He spends time with other women, sometimes many at once. It hurts. She realizes her place in his life, at least on some level. It hurts really bad, and she begins to withdrawal, to spare herself the pain. The pain of you don't know what. There are many things between a H and W that only they know. He's so busy meeting other's needs, his, his kids, umpteen other women... Where is the time for his wife's needs? Her emotional needs? We cannot begin to guess what they are, but we can be relatively sure that they are not being met.If my husband did this, it would probably be a cold day in h*** before he got a birthday card, either. And join him and OW and kids at activities? Monkeys would fly out my butt first.I'm not meaning to rip on you, it's him that promised to be there for her and isn't. You, however, are an enabler to that. You are being ran over in the meantime. You saw all these wonderful sides to him, and no wonder, it was his wife that got to see the bad. And while you were seeing the wonderful, she didn't get to.As for your hurt, well, you are hurting very badly, I can tell. You probably do think that you can't live without him, at least at times. The fact is that you lived without him before and you can again. It will be painful to learn, but you can.You say this is like a death, but it's not. In some ways it's worse. When someone dies, we CANNOT contact that person at all. Eventually, we heal. We are not the same as we were before, but we heal. In this case, you CAN contact him. He is not physically out of reach. This makes it so much harder to control your own actions. You must stop contact with him, however. You have to, otherwise each day the little bit you heal, you will erase by re-opening the wound. It's hard, but you can do it. Once you heal and are ready to move forward, you can find a relationship that is much more fulfilling for you. Someone who DOES love you, and says so. Someone who comes home to you, not his wife and kids. You deserve it and you are worth it. Next time remember the golden rule of dating: Never get involved with someone who isn't 100% available. You deserve that availability. Do yourself a favor and read "The Real Rules" by BarbaraDe Angelis, Phd. It is great for helping you to see what you deserve, and understand what to avoid on the road to a fulfilling relationship.Hang in there. Make tiny goals, aka, "I will not call his voice mail today." Stick to them, and succeed one day at a time. I'm pulling for you!

I have not read all of these posts. I was wondering....does his wife know? I'd sure want to know if my H was with 2 different woman. I appreciate your honesty.Your pain will subside, I know it's hard. Watching my H mope over his OW was terrible and it scars me to this day. I'm glad we saved our marriage, but it's not easy.

Scott, yes, I do want to do the right thing. But for many reasons, moving and starting a new life isn't quite possible (I would if I could). So, I'll just have to make the best of it and do what I can. You can't imagine how sorry I am for getting into this situation. Takola, from what I've gathered (and not only from him), his wife has NEVER given him a card, even when they were first married. (In fact, she doesn't even acknowledge her kids birthdays that much!) I really believe he does meet his wife's needs...he is there whenever she wants him there. You are right....I did live without him before and I will again (at least I hope I will). I agree that it is worse than death. And I do understand your point about healing and re-opening the wound. I will look for the book you mentioned too, it sounds interesting.The tiny goals you suggested are a good starting point....and thanks for pulling for me!!Maggierose, it seems his wife has been suspicious for a long time. She checks up on him often and wants to know his whereabouts every minute he is not working. I can imagine the pain of watching your H mope over the OW, but I'm glad your marriage was saved. It must be very difficult and painful to be in that situation. But you survived it, and that is what's important!!

I have been reading here for a while now. Please don't think this is an attack on you alone.........many of us here are guilty of the same speech patterns which end up creating our own reality. What do I mean? Read on....You say things like you want to get over him but you can't. (We know it is painful, very hard to do, etc)There are two words in there that you have total control over....BUT and CAN'T.Stop adding BUT to your statements.....you want to get over him.............do it! Yes you can, really!!! If only you allow yourself the freedom to let go.And, using the word CAN'T. Substitute that for won't because there is no such thing as can't. Everybody CAN do stuff, they choose not to. Here is a new mantra for you:I want to get over him.........and I WILL!!!!!!!And, by the way, why wait for a call to tell him it is over, why not write a no contact letter to him?Love and light,Jacky

<blockquote>quote:<hr> Takola, from what I've gathered (and not only from him), his wife has NEVER given him a card, even when they were first married. (In fact, she doesn't even acknowledge her kids birthdays that much!) I really believe he does meet his wife's needs...he is there whenever she wants him there. <hr></blockquote>Perhaps she doesn't do birthdays much. Hard to say why, as I have several friends of different religions that refuse to celebrate them. However, no matter her behavior or her reasons for it, it is very clear that her needs are not being met. How could her needs fully and truly be met with other women in her H's life? If you've read HNHN, then you know at least one of the needs is Honesty, which she is not getting AT ALL, so we know right off the bat that there is at least one EN not being met. I'd bet good money on the fact that there are several more.Whether or not this is the case, it is still H's job to meet his wife's needs. His wife's needs exclude you and other OW. 
You love him, and you see him through the filter. It's hard, but you must try not to. Either way, you will still love him. You show amazing resilience, so I believe that you will be free of this. It hurts and hurts and hurts and hurts. And it will hurt some more. You can do it!

Hi DJMB,
I've been thinking about you, and the issue that's really troubling me is something that Zorweb said once. When she left her second abusive marriage, she went to a women's shelter, and then she got into counselling. She asked her therapist: "Why do I always pick these men?" and the therapist said "You don't pick them. They choose you."She went on to explain how user/abuser people select their prey. They test their boundaries, first with something small, but something that people with healthy boundaries and self-respect would not permit. If you allow this, they move in a step, and keep moving, trying bigger and bigger tests until they're sure of you.I am concerned about you, because you seem to be a genuinely nice, gentle, sincere person. I've reread this thread, and realised that you are extremely vulnerable to this kind of predator. In your case, there were many many little tests, and you DID give MM signals. First he told you he was married. You didn't back off and put up a fence. Then he started complaining to you about his W, very subtly at first. Instead of telling him it's inappropriate to discuss his marital problems with an outsider, and that he and his wife should rather seek counselling, you "felt sorry for him" and let your eyes shine with pity. You started telling him how much you admired him for being so self-sacrificing and so giving, so noble and so loving. Then he started asking you to accompany him AND HIS KIDS on recreational trips, antiquing, music, for ice-cream or whatever.That was a serious warning had you been alert to it - this is a man with no respect for either his wife or his kids, bringing a strange woman into his FAMILY group, into "surrogate wife" position. And you went... he was actually using his kids as cover for his pursuit of you, do you see that? He started touching you, and you moved closer instead of away. Once you started having sex, it was all about him, right? Do this to me, do that for me, expect nothing from me, I can only stay for a few minutes so you have to pleasure me. Run these errands for me so we can have a few minutes together, I have to get home to my W and kids, although I am planning to spend some time with another OW first. After all, she's sending me signals and I can't possibly refuse to respond inappropriately....Hon, do you see what I'm getting at? Not that he's a serial cheater, but that you CAN and MUST protect yourself now and in the future both from him and from others of this kind. You need to protect yourself from your own weaknesses.Please check out www.codependents.org, and if you haven't read "Women Who Love Too Much" it would be a good start. The Harville Hendrix material is also great. I am a recovering codependent myself, so I am speaking from experience. It's hard, but it can be done, and the rewards are enormous!! Being a whole person who lives in truth is so much nicer than being half an apple rolling around looking for another half to make it whole...

juststartingover,I think you just described my ow...but why are these MM choosing her? Or is she the predator? I don't mean to get answers for this, just something I was thinking.I think this is important. Thank you for sharing this.I have noticed a temptation in me to "love too much," but thank the Lord, I have had presence or mind or something that causes me to distance myself when things like that happen.But I still feel it's a problem I don't want to have.Thank you for sharing this (and Zorweb).Hoping

Hi,
My FWH's XOW was described by my psychiatrist as a "classic predator" which really set my mind at ease, as I'd been feeling so guilty about "labelling" her and worrying that I was projecting my insecurities onto her, and trying to find a way to get my FWH off the hook. But she was the one who made all the running, and the tactics she used are "poor little me, I'm a victim of this hard cruel world," "you're the only man I've ever really loved" (despite being unfaithful to him when they were together, and despite 3 engagements to other men after they broke up and before he met me), "I need you so much, I can't live without you," "It was a mistake for you to marry your W, but you don't have to live with that mistake. The honest thing would be for you to tell your W it's a mistake." "Your W doesn't really love you and she'll soon get over it."So, women can also be predators, some of them extremely fierce. I'm not saying they, or male predators, do this on a conscious level. What they do do, which is related to narcissism, is seek to meet their own needs and make themselves feel good without ever considering whether what they want is legal, good for them, or good for the people they're involved in. It's all about what they want and how doing these things makes them feel.Women who have a history with MM are choosing them on some level. Maybe it makes them feel good and superior to be able to "win" a man from his wife. Maybe they feel it's a safe way to get their own needs met while not having to actually commit or put anything into the relationship. Maybe they're rescuers, what Robin Norwood calls "the Wendy syndrome" and want to save Peter Pan.

Hey Djmb, my comments above do not apply to you! You don't have a HISTORY of pursuing married men. MM does have a HISTORY of pursuing OW, so that does strongly indicate predator qualities.

Jacky, thank you for all that positive thinking! I will try to focus on how I CAN do it, rather than how I CAN'T (or won't)!Why am I waiting for him to call? I'm not sure, really. I have drafted a no contact letter, but I guess I'd rather let HIM be the one to say its over (by not contacting ME). As silly as it sounds, it would break my heart even more to hurt him....Maybe too, by waiting, I'm building courage and reinforcing my belief that getting out of this situation is the right thing to do.Ok, Takola, I'll agree that he is not meeting all of his wife's needs; especially honesty. Marriage is a two-way street...and I don't think she's been meeting his needs either (even before he began his escapades with OW).As for my amazing resilience, all I can say is I'm trying....whenever I feel weak, I think about all the great support I'm getting from everyone here....it means the world to me!!!!!!Juststartingover, you had me worried for a second! I'm glad you see that I am NOT one of those women who are out to destroy a marriage. I do believe that some women can be predators, and can be extremely fierce ones, at that!! As for me, I am so unlike the typical image of an OW, it isn't even funny!! No one I know would ever believe I got into this situation....From reading your reply, I see I was vulnerable to him; and I must have given him those signals (without even realizing it). In doing that, I fell right into his web. I hate to think of him as a "predator", but I'm beginning to realize that he is. He preys upon women who are "too darn nice" and will give him sympathy and compassion. (And he is such a "player" at the game too....a real sweetheart, filled with lots of little surprises just to let you know he's thinking of you....it just makes you like him even more....and fills that Love Bank to the brim!!!!) Wow, some of the things you mentioned were so true, it almost seemed like you were there with us!I do see what you're getting at. I need to work on my own weaknesses and become less vulnerable to those more powerful than I. I will try to do it. Thank you for sharing Zorweb and for your references to the website and Harville Hendrix, too!I'm am taking this one minute and one day at a time.....

Hi DJMB,I feel for you. I read your posts and I can tell your experiencing the same pain as a BS. I'm a BS and feel the same pain your describing. The difference is your relationship cannot possible go anywhere positive for you or him. True love is equally given and returned. I promise you that you will never feel fully satisfied or fulfilled with the love he’s returning. You deserve better. Brutal Honesty:
Wow! This guy’s good. I find it amazing how he is able to control you. It’s almost like you’re under his spell. He can do almost anything he wants to you and you’re there for him. He needs to write a book, because he’s a master at manipulation! He’s got the beginnings of a harem…Everyman’s dream, but I feel sure that most women would agree this is a nightmare.Withdraw is painful, but if you maintain no contact you will get through this. If not, you return to square one and it all starts over again. You deserve better!Take Care and God Bless,
L&F

Hi L&F:
Yes, in many ways I do feel like a BS. The thought of him with his wife was ok, thats where he should be, but another OW???? That just tears me apart! And yes, I really was under his spell. Don't know how that happened, either, as its never happened before with me. The only thing I can think of were those eyes of his....such an intense, piercing look...I swear they looked right through me and hypnotized me! From the second they looked at me, it happened. He SHOULD write a book...he's got all the answers, all the lines, all the right "moves" to make it a best-seller. And I agree, most women would find this a nightmare. I wish I could talk to the other 2 OW he had before me....wonder if our stories would be similar?Thanks for your reply and hang in there too!

If his wife doesn't know...and he has had at least 2 OW....she's being exposed to the threat of stds. I'm sure he's probably had more other women also.Don't you think that somehow she should know?

Hi djBeen thinking about you. I am proud of you for knowing you are responsible for the pain you feel. That's a truly heathy and strong insight, and one so many people will not accept for themselves, know what I mean? So many who's decisions and actions bring hurtful and harmful conciquences blame others, or circumstances. I feel as you do, I am 100% to blame for any pain and trouble I feel/have because of my relationship with the MM I was involved with.I bring this up though because there is also a danger in this attitude, and I fight it too, as you do. The problem comes when we don't then feel the anger we should at how these MM's treated us (and while my MM was basically very good to me - considering - I still wasn't being treated as I should be, deserve to be, I was just in a pleasanter "trap", where he got what he wanted/needed from me at my expense, ya know?) and keeps us from giving them the natural conciquences of their actions towards us. Do you see what I'm getting at here? We ARE completely responsible for our choices and our actions, and the bad things those brought us, we wouldn't have been taken advantage of unless we allowed it, HOWEVER that doesn't mean we shouldn't also see the actions of these men towards us, and feel their actions towards us are not respectable, not tolerable, and we should feel anger about that, and lose respect for that. We may feel we understand and sympathize, but that does not mean an honorable, truly caring man would take advantage of that. Sure, it's our own fault we allowed it, but that doesn't mean we let these guys off the hook for what they did either, ya know?It isn't healthy to hang on to anger, to nurse it and jealously guard it, BUT you and me we SHOULD feel anger and find our anger at these guys, or at least some of what they have done, because the anger gives us strength and is a motivator to help us do and hold on to what we SHOULD and NEED to do. It is a danger for you and me to forgive and understand too much, to blame only ourselves, because that is how we stay with these guys, how we don't have the strength of will to break away, how we keep ourselves martyring ourselves for what is best for them and what they want.Finding our anger, holding it for now, will help us have the strength to do and keep doing what we should, break away from these me. I know it's hard, I have a very hard time remaining angry at my MM, but it's when have anger at how things were for me in this relationship that I am most detirmined to keep myself out of it now.You mentioned you wanted HIM to break things off, I understand this feeling also, I tried that for a long while, hoping he would finally do the right and honest thing and break things off - but he never would have. Your MM won't either, very unlikely. He may distance himself from you for a while while he pursues this other OW, but he will keep the door open to return to you, and chances are he will. It's ok I think if you don't directly break things off with him, but that you need to make sure at the same time that you are determined never to have contact with him again. Send the no contact letter or don't, but next time he attempts to contact you, and he will, DO NOT talk to him.Do not weaken and call his voice mail either to hear his voice, that kind of thing only keeps your emotions involved, it's hard I know, but don't let yourself do that sort of thing, let your emotions gradually lessen, and don't then stir them back to the surface with that sort of thing.Here's a trick I try to use, when I think about my MM in good ways, or feeling sad about him, upset, etc I try hard to distract myself. DJ there will be plenty of time later for you to go through the situation and your feelings to sort things out for yourself to learn from later when your feelings are not so raw - don't do it now, don't analyse what went wrong, what you did wrong, or anything, just keep yourself distracted and refuse to let yourself sink into depression and pain. Only when I start thinking about certain things and feeling anger do I let myself think about him, because that helps keep me from going back into that situation. It would be so easy for me to contact him and ask to go back, say I'll accept what he wants me to just to have him in his life. It's my anger and my pride and my self worth that helps me during those times, so I try hard to focus on that for now.juststartingover - thank you so much for what you said to dj about these men chosing us. That turned a light bulb on in my head. I've had bad guys in my life before, but honestly could not accept the idea that I choose guys like that. I did not, I tried hard to choose good, nice guys who would love me back and treat me well. But the thought that I was chosen as an easy target for those who would use me makes much more sense, as I have always been an open and honest person, forgiving and understanding, willing to work through difficulties, etc and I do think I seemed an easy target. The problem with that is these guys missed the fact that I am also pretty smart and savvy, have an inner strength and good sense of self worth, and it might appear on the surface I could be easily duped, may even work for a while while I figured things out, but I'd definately stick up for myself when it became clear they didn't care about me and were only using me. I sincerely feel it wasn't so much that there was something in myself seeking men who would treat me bad, but that some of the good qualities in myself set me up to be easy prey - at least at first - for me who were merely users.dj - I don't feel my MM is a bad guy, I think he's a good guy who has real problems. I know he sincerely loved me. That makes it hard for me sometimes to feel anger towards him, I'm not angry at HIM really, because I understand what it was in him that allowed him to get himself - and involve me, in this situation. But I can still be angry that the situation took so much from me, be angry he didn't care enough to see that he was asking me to give so much, for so little. So you certainly can be angry at your MM for expected you to take what he dishes out and still stay on his string for when he wants what you give him. Even though we are completely responsible for allowing it. Hope my ramblings have helped you some. I know this is very hard, believe me I know. I have been trying for a while now to somehow break us out of this situation, and we couldn't stick to it. I'm hoping this time will be it, neither of us can take much more of the emotional roller coaster we've been on, it's taken it's toll on my MM too, so I think this time we will finally stick to it, because I think this time he is as tired as I am, LOL. And, I am stronger because I can't keep doing this any more, regardless of my feelings for him.take care, and keep us posted.Juanita

Hi DJ,Have been following your threads quietly for some time, but rather scared to reply. I was in your shoes in January, loving a MM, but desperately wanting out of this unfair, destructive relationship. But loving him so much that I felt I did not have the power to resist him. I tried (half heartedly) for a few months before this to break it off. But that sweet face always appeared with flowers and words of undying love. Boy, was I a sucker for a smooth talker ! I FEEL every word of pain that you speak of.I honestly do.
This site gave me great strength to see a way out.Several people were kind, several were not. I know this is not a site for OW. But 3 people are involved in an A, so 3 people need to work on an end to this crisis.
A few things helped me, and I do not even know where to start. You probably do not want all the sorted details of my A, but they can be found in some of my threads here. I was probably at the lowest point of my life when I came to this site. I needed help to end it, not continue my A.The number ONE thing that worked and continues to hold me committed to my no contact, was meeting with his wife.At this point I knew I could not continue this anymore.We talked calmly, rationally, as 2 women who loved the same man.She was incredible! Not confrontational and I so respect her for standing up for herself and her H.The second thing that helped hold me accountable was my "no contact" letter. I was in control of this relationship for the first time since we came together. I did not wait for him to break it off.Now, keep in mind I did love this man beyond words. My letter was short, sweet, but firm.I informed him that I was in contact with his wife and would continue to do so if he contacted me at all. I cried for days, for the reasons you described "how could I hurt him so much?". I contemplated suicide ( I am also a sane, rational 41 year old professional woman....this scared me).
Next, I got busy. I had lost 10 lbs in my depression ( already too skinny before that!).So, I joined the gym. I said "I am too exhaused and unhappy to go work out". But , you know what ? I have never felt so energetic, so healthy in my life. I work out 6 days a week, and have gained 10 lbs back, with 5 more to go.I have muscles, and I like what I see when I look in a mirror. It started out as a great distraction (those evenings waiting for his car to pull in the yard are pretty painful and long, right?).I have met some great people there who applaud my pounds ! Now, a good friend on this site accused me of "running away" from my pain, and he was probably right in the beginning. But, I started to at least feel better, I was distracted from the pain. This started me seeing that there was life after this great love.Next, after a month of no contact, and I started to feel a tiny bit stronger,I took a suggestion from my friend here, who suggested i write an apology letter to his W. THAT was beyong tough.I read it and kept it, and read it some more before finally mailing it. That was in February. Part of the greiving process is forgiveness. I had to ask her forgiveness.Again, I can not turn back now. I am accountable to her again.
Yes, there are days when all I want is him in my arms. But I look where I was in January, and I see truly how far I have come.I REFUSE to take one step backwards.It has been almost 4 months since I have seen him, with only one professional phone call this month( our jobs sometimes cross)He did not necessarily know it would be me he was going to talk to.The end of the call he says "By the way, your letter really helped my wife.Thank you." So I cried all the way home from work, but not because I missed him, but because his marriage is mending.And I did the right thing.Trust me DJ, you will get through this. It really is a day by day by day thing.I have a weak day every now and then, but come back to MB and find some strength to keep moving forward. I know , the BS think this is no place for OW, but they are helping us work through our mistakes. Just being angry at us only gets us all hostile and defensive. That does not get anybody anywhere.It took this site to get me over my MM ( who by the way was never "mine").And I am not over him yet. It does take time to grieve, and we all cope at different speeds, at different levels.Yes, I still love him. But I will not be so unkind to myself to put myself in a situation where I do not get everything I deserve in a relationdship.You are strong (so am I ), so I know what you are feeling.Keep putting one foot in front of the other, do not look behind you. There is life ahead, where I did not think it existed.
Keep up the good work.Mary

I'm thinking of you dj, how are you doing today? Hang in there.Juanita

Well, one more MBer jumping in. Like you haven't had enough, huh!It's glad to see you making up your mind to get out of this relationship. It's not only the right choice because it's morally wrong to be with a MM, but think about it, do you believes he LOVES you? Not a chance! He loves you so much that he's willing to hurt you because he wants to ahve sex with even more women. One aspect to measure love is sacrificing. This man has no desire to sacrifice ANYTHING of himself for anyone. He's a selfish person, the least to say.Beside not loving you, bviously he doesn't hold any respect for you that he can openly tell you he wants more relationship. Could he do it to his W? No! He can sneak around her to ahve affair but would never has the guts to openly admit to it.I'm sure by now you have seen that he only used you. ANd only one truthful thing I believe he told you is that he does NOT love you.Think about those recent days you haven't seen him, you are hurting, you are in pain, you feel like dying would be better than living, ... You know what he's doing? He's probalby is excited to get to the new adventure with the OW#2. Does he has any moment of regret how much he hurts you? Maybe not. After all, you're jsut another OW.JMB, God doesn't punish you. When we are in our bottom of despair, we might often think that way, but there are choice and consequences. I'm sorry that your life has turned out this way, but the choice you made has led you to this situation. The worse choice, the worse situation. You can overcome it! I know you can! I remember something I read before:
"Think you can, or think you can't, either way, you are right!"I've seen many broken hearts on this site, whose spouses mistreat or left them, ect; and their causes were more "just" than yours. And they all eventually could move on. I'm not trying to down play your pain, but no matter hwo painful it is, it's possible to change your life around.Be strong and good luck![ April 22, 2002: Message edited by: jomin ]

Hi DJ and Juanita,
I finally found the thread I was looking for! Please don't be put off by the title; there's some really valuable stuff in there about resentment, grieving, loss and choicemaking. The url is www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum31/HTML/004579.htmlI hope you are both well. DJ, you're too quiet.... Hang in, we can do it.

Well, here I am with another long-winded thread....sorry for that, but I've got lots to comment on. I'm still hanging in there! Thanks everyone for the replies. Maggierose, I believe his wife knows what he is doing, which is why she "checks up" on him so often. I do know her somewhat, and it would be very hard for me to tell her what is going on. I've already caused her so much pain. Ok, I should tell her, but I don't want to be the one to do it.Juanita, as someone who's been there, your insight is more than welcome. Your point about being angry did make a lot of sense and I totally understand and agree with it. But, I still don't feel the anger I should feel towards him. He holds such a special place in my heart that I don't think I could EVER be angry at him....no matter what he did. I really try hard to (and Jomin's thread should help me do it), but I just won't let myself. It would be so much easier if I COULD get angry at him....I'd have no problem in ending this. What is wrong with me that I can't be upset with him???? How do I become angry at him??Since this is my first (and last) involvement with a MM, it is all so very confusing to me. I know I should be angry, but I'm not. I know I shouldn't love him, but I do. I know I should never be with him again, but I want to be. I was in a different world with him, where everything was beautiful. Everything seemed so right and "perfect" with him, when yet it was all so very wrong at the same time. How can that be possible???? Interesting too....I did find an email from him over the weekend. He had free time and wanted to stop by. Fortunately, I was gone most of the weekend, so we weren't able to connect. And I'm happy about that....I know looking at those eyes again and hearing that voice would make me melt! I'm trying to be so strong with this, I realize that seeing him again will push me right back into square 1.He did mention that things are not working out as he thought they would with OW2, so he isn't about to end anything with "us" yet. Wouldn't he have a surprise if I ended it??? I wish you luck with your situation too. Yes, this is an emotional roller coaster. It seems like you have the courage and strength to pull out of your situation. Please remember that my thoughts and encouragement are with you too and let me know how you're doing. MaryRN, it was great to hear from you! I appreciate your reply and encouragement! It helps me so much to hear from someone who's walked down the same path. You've had so much courage to take the steps to change your life around! I will try to be just as brave as you and Juanita!Like you, I entered this site looking for help to end my A. I wasn't sure what to expect, knowing that so many people here have been hurt by the OW. The compassion, caring and support I've gotten here have been tremendous and each day I am getting stronger....or at least trying to.I am proud of you for your courage to meet his wife. The wife of my MM (and you're right...these guys never really were "ours") and I already know each other. Needless to say, she isn't very fond of me, so I would never expect a rational discussion about him. She has every reason to hate me, because of what I've done to their marriage. I feel so bad for the pain I've caused her. I should consider the apology letter, it sounds like a great idea and a step in the right direction. You are doing great by not having contact for 4 months! I can imagine how hard that business call must have been. But, you're right, those tears on the way home were becuase of knowing you did the right thing. I've got such a long way to go with this, since I'm still at the beginning stage of breaking this off (and haven't actually done it yet). I hope I can be strong enough....
I know it is what I HAVE to do......I understand reaching that lowest point, too...I've been there. In fact, the first night I posted I didn't know where else to turn. I was scared....I missed him so much and my mind was wandering about whether he was with OW2. Just being able to sit, cry and let my feelings out helped so much...and I never expected all the support!I truly admire the way you are channeling the hurt from your situation into a new start. I need a new "me" too...in my case, lose 10 lbs., new hairdo, etc. The timing should be right for me to do that too. I need to jump on the treadmill and stairstepper and think positively about what I CAN do. (And yes, that waiting for his visit is a nightmare!) This experience can become something positive for us because we know that we deserve much more than what we were getting from these guys.Everyone on this site have been terrific and you and Juanita have become a blessing to me! I wish you strength to continue with your no contact and those great workouts!! Keep it up!! You're doing great!!Jomin, thanks for your input. Your thread should help me become angry at this guy, but its still hard for me to do. It was my choice to become involved; not a good choice at all, but one I made freely. I don't really feel as if God is punishing me...I'm just trying to find the point of it all. Maybe it was just a learning experience...and I agree that it is possible to change my life around....and I hope I can stay strong enough to do that!And to Juststartingover, thanks so much for the link. I am going to look at it now. I'm still hanging in there....day by day....minute by minute!

OUCH! OK all ready! This woman has fealings and admitted messing up. I am ashamed of some of the things that have been posted here. Please understand that these ugly remarks are from people in pain.
My advise is that you order 2 coppies of "Love Busters and 1 "HNHN", when they come in drop in unexpectedly on the W, give here 1 each and tell her what is going down. Then do the leave town thing. Read LB and start over. I would recomend attending a large church that has a singles class. Then knowing how to do it right (after he reads and understands the program ) get married and live happily ever after.
May God be with you.

DJ,You can end it, and you will survive it!! I am a BS and I was also once the WS in an A with a MM. And yes my A produced OC. If my H and I can survive what we have been through, his A and my A and the OC situation, then anyone can survive anything! Not easy getting there, but anything thats worth anything, is worth that fight. Our marriage was, and YOU are worth that to YOURSELF!! You deserve soooo much more. His wife deserves soooo much more. His kids deserve sooooo much more.To comment on something from a few posts back....quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Takola, from what I've gathered (and not only from him), his wife has NEVER given him a card, even when they were first married. (In fact, she doesn't even acknowledge her kids birthdays that much!) I really believe he does meet his wife's needs...he is there whenever she wants him there.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------That last line of it is what I wanted to comment on. The "I really believe he does meet his wife's needs... he is there whenever she wants him there." part of it. My H had his A before I did. Yes, he was home, sometimes, yes, he provided for us, yes, he was home when I needed him to be most of the time. But at that point in our marriage, I had never felt so alone. I couldnt understand how I could be married but be ALONE. My EN were not being met. Even the time together when it was there, was not in ways I wanted it to be. I just felt so very alone. Which this did not change for years, it just got worse, which is how I ended up in an A of my own. So just because he is home when she wants him to be home, does not mean that he is meeting her needs in any way shape or form. In the case of the MM you have been envolved with, I really dont see him meeting anyones needs, his wifes, yours and the other OW, the only needs he is meeting are his own. His priorities seem to be pretty plain to see. It's all about me, me, me, and what he wants and needs when he needs it... there is no regard on his part for his wife, his kids, you, the other OW.. no one but himself. You said he is a good father to his kids, but if he was TRULY a good father to his kids, he would be facing and admitting to the things he has done to his wife, coming clean about it all and laying out on the table, and hoping there was a chance to save it and have a "real" marriage, not one built up on all the lies he has told. He would end the pain he is causing to everyone envolved. With me being a BS and a WS, I see both sides and have felt and lived both sides. I know what I went through as the BS, the array of emotions and pain that it caused me. I know what I went through as the WS, the pain it caused me, and the pain it caused my family and the MM family. I am the one that ended it with the MM I was envolved with. He eventually told his wife about it long after it was already over. I ended it not just for me, but for what could happen and how it would hurt my H and my kids, his W and his kids. I had been in her place and I couldnt live with myself knowing the pain it would cause her. Ending it with him will not be easy, and it's going to hurt like nothing you've ever felt before. But you have to remember this, think about this in your head constantly, and it will help you to be strong in what you have to do. His wife, his kids, and YOU, all deserve soooooooooo much more then what this man gives. He played you good.... like a fine tuned instrament. And the pain of ending this after 2 years hurts, your pain is just as real as what anyone else goes through. But keep in mind too, that the pain you are causing his wife, who has invested 19 years in to her marriage to him, is beyond devastating too. Put yourself in her shoes. If their marriage can ever be saved, he will have to come clean and be upfront about everything with her. I hope they can, but from what you've said also, I really dont know if he will ever be able to be honest with his wife, because he cant even be honest with himself. But that is THEIRS to deal with, be it he comes clean or flat out gets caught. I know you said you couldnt tell her yourself, I'm not going to say you should and I'm not going to say you shouldnt. But again... put yourself in her shoes... wouldnt YOU want to know?? You seem like such a wonderful person, with many qualites that any man would want. Why sell yourself short by being in a relationship with someone who can never fully give himself to you. He doesnt seem to be someone who can fully give himself to anyone. One of the most basic human needs is to love and be loved, truly. We all have within us the capacity to love more then we ever knew we could. We have the ability to give that.. and it's one of the greatest gifts we as humans have. I see within you the ability to give this... and you DESERVE to recieve this too... dont settle for less the you deserve EVER. You are worth sooooooo much more then that!!! When your feeling weak in doing what your doing by ending this, come here... talk to us, cry with us, and become strong WITH us. There is light at the end of the tunnel, even if you cant see it right now. And you will be so much happier in the end once you reach there. It wont be easy, and it will hurt like h*ll!! But your NOT alone in this, were all here for you. Be strong and hang in there!!! (((((((DJ))))))))My thoughts are with you... you will make it through!!!Ann

Here's an idea. I have no idea if it would work or if you could carry through with it:To be blunt, become a pain in the @ss. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] That's right. Become a nag, a complainer, and show an ugly side. If you don't have an ugly side, make one up. This may just break the illusion for him, or 'lift the fog' so to speak. It may well just push HIM to terminate the relationship.However, I think you would feel much better about yourself in the coming years if you take control and terminate it yourself. Consider this:1. A man who cheats on his wife with multiple women is no man that you want to marry.
2. While your heart and mind is focused on this man, you are going to be unable to meet anyone that you WILL want to marry.
3. The clock is ticking. Every moment you waste pouring over him is another moment in your life that you could have shared with someone truly special. Its another moment that you could have conceived a child with a loving husband. Its another moment that you could have cradled your tiny baby in your arms. Its another moment you could have gotten all of your children up to bed in order to spend a few quiet moments in the arms of your future husband.You see? Don't waste your time on a cheater. You have no vows to break. Just leave.

Hi dj,I know it's tough, I do. But you CAN do it.I understand what you say about your MM holding a special place in your heart, I do. Frankly, I think he sounds like slime - but I respect and accept your sincere feelings.So how do you find your anger, when you don't feel you can really be angry with him? Well, first of all you can be angry at things he has done to you, how he has treated you, even simply the situation - as in finding anger you had to meet on his terms at his convenience, even if you at the time understood and accepted that. Other posters are right, his not only going after the new OW, but his frank telling you of that, is very dismissive and disregarding of your feelings. Did he tell you with empathy? At least acknowledging he knew it would hurt you and regret to hurt you? Can you see how dismissive he's been of you and your feelings, and find anger at that? How about finding anger that he seems to attach women to him to fill his needs, without any seeming respect, understanding of their right to expect things in return, loyalty, care and concern for them? Maybe, like me, finding you are simply at the end of your patience and tolerance and energy, regardless of your feelings? Understanding that it is ok that you do love him, but that is not the same thing as he deserving that love, valuing that love, returning that love, or the same as a relationship with him being healthy and something you should remain in. Finding anger that he is wanting to keep you on his string, while he finds out how this new OW will work out and if he might want to go back to you, or to keep you both involved with him? If you can't be angry at him, perhaps you can be angry at some of his actions? Treatment of you? Or, simply the draining and emotional turmoil and work it takes to remain involved with this man? How it takes and takes from you, for him, but gives so little back in return?
Some of these men are experts at keeping the women they are involved with appeased with words, with occassional time and attention, to keep things good enough often enough they stay on the string, regardless of the trouble and turmoil. They spend at lot of time and energy putting out fires with whatever woman is considering possible break up because the truth is they want them both (or all). Many don't have any trouble telling the women whatever they think they want or need to hear in order to appease them. I suspect this is part of what you see when you say when you are with him things are so good. He's not so stupid as to think you would stick around if he was a complete jerk when you were together.Don't be fooled, I'm struggling too, and my situation isn't quite as traumatic as yours, which doesn't make it easier, but I am tired enough to be ready for it to end, even though there are deep feelings involved on both sides. I'm doing good so far though, although our break up is new, I try to stay detirmined, and luckily my MM is sympathetic and respectful of my feelings and struggles. But it's a day to day thing, and I'm still struggling too.Take care dj, I care. If you'd like you can email me to talk more privately at FoxJuanita@aol.com. Warn me though in a post here if you email me, I don't normally use that address.Juanita

Hi DJ,Just wanted to say hi and see how you're doing.Do you have a partner from off the boards? More instant messages can be helpful during this rough time.Also, they can help hold you accountable than a general forum like this. I kept thinking...Okay, you write your stuff, send it to me (or someone else), give me his email, and I'd hit "send." I don't think I'm the best person for you to have exchanges with. I mean, I've not been in your situation and don't know what to expect. I could imagine what it would be like, but that's not the same thing as being able to anticipate for you.Just some thoughts and I want you to know that I'm pulling for you, too.Hoping

Hi everyone! I still haven't talked to this guy yet to end things....dsimmons, I expected those ugly (even uglier) comments (and I deserved them). Thanks for the good suggestion of giving his wife a copy of Love Busters and HNHN. I already have HNHN....it is fantastic!! As for them, I think counseling could help, if they'd do it. (I don't think they realize that they have a serious problem....they just go along, day by day the way it is. He's not happy with it, but says he must keep the family together for the kids sake.)Ann, it sounds like you've really been through alot and managed to come out ahead!! That is great!! I agree that anything worth having is worth fighting for (and especially a marriage!). I'm happy that you and your H were able to work things out. I wish you continued success and a great future!Reading your thread opened by eyes to something....I've always viewed this guy as being very UNSELFISH, because of how much to does for others and how little of it is for himself. But now I see that everyone gets just a little "piece" of him -- his wife, kids, me and whoever else. He always says he has to "make everyone happy". He knows his priority is with his family and I think he really tries to be everything for them. In spite of his actions, I really do believe he is a great Dad....he is always available to the kids and spends lots of time with them...they are his life....but, ok, he's not perfect; no one is.He does have a big problem with honesty, though. But, for some reason (can I blame love?), I always trusted in him and never doubted what he told me. Why?? Why did he stress the importance of honesty between us if he wasn't honest?? I'm not a dumb, gullible person who believes anything. I'm a smart, intelligent woman with good common sense who thinks things through...and usually makes good decisions....but, it is just something about him....As for our relationship, it was a rare time when HE had a chance to be pampered. He often told me that no one had ever been concerned with making HIM happy...only what HE could do for THEM. And I do believe that. I think he always was surprised that I focused on HIM totally and tried my best to make him smile. He wasn't used to that; but I felt he deserved it.And, with him, I found that capacity to love more than I ever knew I could. I wish I didn't, but I do. I now see that the love wasn't wrong, the person was.I will look for that light at the end of the tunnel. Thanks for your support and that cyberhug....I needed it!Wilham2, how I wish I could turn into a nag and help lift that fog, but that's just not me. (I could try, though!) Your list of reasons for ending this are so true. I've got to keep thinking of them. Thanks for your encouragement in helping me to do the right thing.Hi hoping4future...I'm doing ok, at this point anyway. Thanks for pulling for me. I'd love to do email (and Juanita shared her address) but he has my password. Surprised?? He's had it since the beginning. He said he'd never check my emails (and naturally I believe him), but who knows?? Just in case he does, I don't want him finding emails about him...I think a new password is in order here!Juanita, thanks for the offer of emails....I'd love to (after I change passwords or get another address).Slime?? Ok, he does sound like that (or even worse!). But why is he so special to me?? Why do I still feel this way about him after I see him as he really is?? And even after I try my best to get angry??All of the points you mentioned should indeed make me angry...but I really do believe he cares about me. No, he doesn't love me, but he cares. And he did tell me he didn't want to hurt me when he mentioned the OW. He wanted to tell me because we are honest with each other. He assured me that I did nothing wrong, it was just something HE had to pursue. (And, the last I heard, things weren't going well with her....so he didn't make any progress, yet anyway. But, I do hope she has the power to resist him....for her sake!!)And no, he doesn't deserve the love I have for him and I doubt he values it. But, then again, he never expected it and didn't ask for it. We said long ago that it is important that we care deeply for each other....it didn't have to be love.Let me explain what I meant when I said that things are so good when we're together. We are comfortable and relaxed with each other. We brighten things up and make each other smile (for no reason even). It almost feels like we "belong" together, like we are at peace. We are both good listeners. He doesn't really tell me things I want to hear. He doesn't "butter me up" with undue compliments and sweet talk, so its not time spent where I hear lots of "flowery" things. It is just so hard to explain. He calms me and relaxes me. I've never felt that way with anyone and it confuses me.Yes, a relationship like this is emotionally draining and tiring. I know it can't go on. I keep thinking that the next time we talk I will tell him that it is over. I have to be strong and brave to do it. I have to think of the anger I should have for the pain he's caused everyone involved, and be determined to do this.I give you credit for staying determined and strong; I hope I can do the same. I care about your situation too and wish you luck. We are going through a difficult time. You've helped me tremendously. Maybe can do emails soon. Take care and please keep in touch!!

I have been reading a bit in The Road Less Traveled by Scott Peck. Let me pass on some passages to you, from the chapter entitled "The Myth of Romantic Love"."....the experience of falling in love probably must have as one of its characteristics the illusion that the experience will last forever. This illusion is fostered in our culture bye the commonly held myth of romantic love, which has its origins in our favorite childhood fairy tales, wherein the prince and princess, once united, live happily forever after. The myth of romantic love tells us, in effect, that for every young man in the world there is a young woman who was 'meant for him,' and vice versa....While i genereally find that great myths are gret precisely because they represent and embody gret universal truths, the myth of romantic love is a dreadful lie. Perhaps it is a necessary lie in that it ensures survival of the species by encouragement and seeming validation of the falling-in-love experience that traps us into marriage. But as a psychiatriest I weep in my heart almost dailyt for the ghastly confusion and suffering this myth fosters. Millions of people waste vast amounts of energy desperately and futilely attempting to make the realit of their lives conform to the unreality of the myth."Now, the first sentence of this book is one with which even my 11-y-o daughter agrees. Read it carefully and then get on with the business of getting your life together, finding a counselor, and regaining some sanity."Life is difficult."
- M. Scott Peck

Oh DJ, your post made me want to cry!! It seems to me you think of yourself in some way as this man's surrogate wife, and you're bent on following MB principles for his sake..Sweetie, do you have HIS email passwords? To ALL of his email accounts? Do you really believe he doesn't check your mail every day???Please, I know I sound harsh, but I can't bear to see you putting yourself through this. You're not his wife, DJ, and for you to be his surrogate is a blasphemy however much you love him. You're not taking control of your own life, DJ. You've given yourself body and soul into his keeping, and I have a really ugly feeling in the pit of my stomach that he's not worthy of that trust. Well, he's proved that already, hasn't he? His wife also once gave him her trust. Another thing that has been haunting me is that he said he wouldn't have been interested in you had you "played around" before him. Kind of arrogant given that he'd already had at least TWO OTHER AFFAIRS?You asked why he should be adamant about honesty in your relationship if he didn't mean it? Simple. Makes him look good, keeps you under his control. He knows that honesty is important to you, so he uses that as a button. You know for a fact that he lies continuously to his wife, and I bet he lies to OW#4 as well. So why on earth would he not lie to you? My XH was very good at demanding the truth from me, even put a PI onto me several times, paid our son to report to him, confided in our local telephone operator.... and was he only good at saying things like "I've never kissed another woman since I've married you, I've never told another woman I love her. Men are always after YOU!!! You're a slut and I have to protect you from your weakness." Well, yeah, men did hit on me, and got slapped down every single time. My XH of course never mentioned the blowjobs, the "escorts", the strip shows...... maybe he never kissed another woman, but that doesn't mean he told me the truth....As to MM saying "I have to keep everybody happy" and you going all starry-eyed and exclaiming "My unselfish, noble hero!" Nope, Mr Wonderful does NOT need to keep EVERYBODY happy. His first priority should be his wife, his next and last should be his kids. They're the only people to whom he owes his presence, his commitment and his love.MJ, I'm so afraid you're hanging around on the sidelines hoping #4 will refuse him and he'll come back to you and you can revert to this blissful state where you fill up the cracks left by his wife. When he goes off after #5, or #15, do you still want to be waiting for him to come back to your unconditionally loving arms?Change your password, in fact change your email addy. It took me less than 5 minutes to change ours. Write him a firm, polite no contact letter, and start the closure process. Closure starts with an irrevocable goodbye, just as mourning starts with a death. There will be no healing for you until you do say goodbye.Hang in, you can do it. It hurts like hell, but the rewards are beyond imagination now. You don't have to hate him, just accept that just as diabetics can't eat double fudge icecream, you can't have a relationship with a serial cheater. Cyberhug!

DJ,
It's taken me two days to read this whole thread. Wow, because you have been receptive, you have gleened the wisdom of the "best of the best" of this board. This thread has information for all of us. I thank you for your "grace" so that others can learn and grow as well.I'm the Mom to an OW. She is single as you are with many of the mind sets that you have. I actually thought that this might be her as I read your words, even your phraising, about him and how you feel about him, is the same. Her affair is now at 2 1/2 years, her MM has 4 small boys, says he will never leave his wife and children, says he loves his wife, says he is totally honest, plays the NICE GUY, is a medical professional and a Mormon Bishop! (breath)Earily on, I lost my position of being effective with her by being judgemental, making disrespectful comments and angry outbursts. I have not been able to say ANYTHING to her. I have learned here on MB that I have even made things worse by creating a "It's me and you against the world" situation. I'm telling you this because I want you to know that MB principals are here for lots of us to learn from, even MOM! This thread is helping many who lurk, many who will never post. So if you NEED a reason for your lesson, count this thread as one of them. Though it won't help my daughter, this will help someone elses daughter. The more you learn and read and post here at MB the stronger you will become. My prayer for you is that, when the test comes (and it will come) you will have become strong enough to resist. I've learned that the "cakemen" always come back. He has time invested in "groming" you. He will pull out tecniques he has never used before, after all, OW#4 isn't working out the way he thought it might.God has given you ANGLES here. They have their arms around you, the ARM is the KNOWLEDGE that will give you the POWER that will help you to get your self-respect back.This "relationship" has been about him, it's time to make this about YOU.

DJgloryb.comThis is the cakeman artical by Dr. Roger A. RhoadesIt works!!! I've never tried this before [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img][ April 25, 2002: Message edited by: gottruth? ]

Hi DJ,
Well, lots of good suggestions coming your way. Are you trying to apply any of them to your life yet? I know, you still love him , and that is okay. I agree with Juanita, love him, not what he does. I still love MM beyond imagination.But I deserve better. You deserve much better. My only regret in my A was that I was not stronger sooner to end it.
I know what you are saying about believing everything he told you. My MM used to come visit me at work, bringing me coffee and the most beautiful love letters ( he wrote those daily).In them, he always talked about our future together, how incredibly he adored me,how we were going to retire together and travel the world. I bought into EVERY word.Now, I do not think he lied to me. I think he was WILLING to give me all that, but was not ABLE. Well, he should not have made all those promises to my heart.So, I can still love him, but not what he did to my heart.
I wish there was some way to let you know that there is life after all this.Four months,and I feel stronger with each day. Now, I have not laid eyes on him in that time, so seeing him may destroy me, But I am feeling stronger to resist him every day.
A book that helped me in my week following break up whan all I did was cry, was "Get Over It" by Sue Ostler(1998).It is described as 'the break-up girls ultimate survival kit'. It made me laugh, at times cry.But it gave me such power in my decision to end it. I still pick it up every other day to rejoice in being a single babe!!!
But you have to start somewhere. Draft up a "no contact" letter, maybe you are not quite there to send it yet, but write it as if you mean every word.And make it final, no turning back. It was hard for me not to go on and on in my letter.I do like to talk.But say what you mean, be kind but firm.I am sure many of us here can help you draft up a letter, if you need a little help.
And change that email password girlfriend! He has too much power over you already.
And you know what, if it was meant to be, it will be.I always believed that.Hope you are doing okay. And by the way, it is okay to cry, give yourself permission to let it all out.Once I stopped supressing the tears, I started to feel in control again.
I hope I did not get too preachy for you.I do not mean to.You just need to understand that some of us were EXACTLY where you are.We survived, we got stronger.You will also, once you start to believe in yourself and the power you have to control your own life........... oh, oh, I am starting to sound like Dr.Phil..........help!!!!Hope to have an update on how you are doing soon. Alot of us care about you.Mary

DJ,You asked why you can not be angry with this man. I think the answer is obvious. It’s because he is acting in character.At some point he told his wife that he loved her, she was his soul mate, the she was the only one who understood him, he could not live without her, and promised to be faithful to her.At some point he told you that he loved you, you were his soul mate, that you are the only one who understood him, he could not live without you, and he promised you some sort of fidelity. All the while he was trying you on for size and kept his wife just in case it did not work out with you.Now he is seeing someone else. The relationship is blooming. He is starting to tell her that he loves her, that they are soul mates, that she is the only one who truly understands him, he could not live without her, and he is promising her some sort of fidelity. All the while he is trying her on for size and keeping you and his wife in the wings in case it does not work out with her. His wife is the one person in his life who he should treat the best. He has cheated on his wife with you. So why would he treat you, or anyone else, any better then he treats his wife?How could you be angry and anyone for acting within their own character? You are being realistic by not being angry with him. This is exactly the life you can expect with him. It is the life any woman can expect with him.The one you should be angry with is yourself, for putting yourself through this hell. You deserve so much more. Stay a way from this man, he is poison for you.As for giving his wife a copy of HN/HN, a copy of “Surviving an Affair” would be the first one I’d suggest for her. But oh, how could you visit her, really? Perhaps you could just mail her the books and spare her the humiliation of a visit from you. I am sorry if that sounds mean, but I think it would be very hard to have had one of my H’s OW’en give me advice on how to save my marriage.Have you read “10 Stupid Things Women Do To Mess Up Their Lives” by Laura Schlessinge? It’s a good quick read and might put a lot of things into perspective for you.

dj, where are you? How are you doing?

DJIf you caved you can start all aver again. People get second chances. I hope for yourself that you did not cave but even if you did, we care about you.mom [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

You can have all the affairs you want, and talk to these people about it all day but if you decide you do not want to bear and raise children, you will be personally and terribly flamed and nearly chased off this board. So go ahead and work this affair thing out and people on this board will support you but make sure you tell NO ONE if you decide you DO NOT WANT TO BEAR AND RAISE children! That is worse than SIN to these people. You can be nearly "killed" for that on this board.

Oh things are not going well....I still haven't talked to him to end it. Our paths do cross sometimes, and I saw him both last night and tonight on my way home from work. He gave me a beep and that big smile and wave. It was devastating! I've been crying ever since....I don't know if I can make it without him....I just wish I could die and be re-born as someone he will love....but that probably wouldn't happen. I really do need him in my life....its just not the same without him.Juststartingover, it seems like I do play the role of surrogate wife, and I know that's wrong. No, I don't have access to his email accounts. It never bothered me that he had access to mine, I've got nothing to hide from him. He already knows way more than he need to know about me.I have to agree that he's not worthy of my trust, or anyone else's, for that matter. I've seen arrogance at times, too (not often). So why is this the guy I've fallen head over heels for????As for OW4, I'm hoping she will refuse him to save herself the pain I'm going through, if she should find herself in love with him too. It will hurt him if nothing develops with her, and I don't EVER want him hurt. I don't want him with her, but at the same time, I don't want her to hurt him by refusing him. I don't even know if I make sense anymore....I'm sorry if I don't.And, I'm ashamed to say, but he is SO important to me that I would probably still take him back, no matter how many women he's been with....that scares me....why do I feel that way. I'm not that dumb or desperate....I deserve much more than he can ever give me.Gottruth?, what can I say?? The Cakeman article is unbelievable! It describes him exactly. Thank you so much for sharing it!My Mom doesn't say much about my situation; but I'm not sure if she is aware of just how deep it is. But, maybe she just doesn't want to admit that I could really be involved in such a horrible thing. What I've gotten into defies all of my principles, values, beliefs, morals and religion. No one I know would EVER suspect me of getting into something like this. It is just NOT me....but then again, I"ve never met anyone like HIM before.Thank you for your words of wisdom. The "relationship" has focused on HIM totally...and I wanted it that way. Now, maybe the time has come for ME. I appreciate your encouragement and support.MaryRN, I have been trying to apply everyone's advice and it is helping to build my strength. But after seeing him 2 days in a row, I'm not sure I can do this....but I have to.You are lucky to not see your MM. I just want to hear his voice so bad. Since we had daily contact (emails and phone calls) for 2-1/2 years, the past month without much contact has been so very hard. I don't want to lose him, but I know it has to end. (Last month his wife figured out his password and knew about our contact...she insisted he stop, as she now reads everything.)Unlike your MM< mine never really promised me anything. (I think he knew better.) HE was just "there". It was so comforting to know that he was always thinking of me (and let me know by little suprprise messages on my answering machine, daily emails, calling me from his vacation, and the little "thinking of you" gifts, etc.). It was just those little things he did that made me fall in love with him. So, I do love HIM, but I do not love what he did to me or his family.Zorweb, looking at the whole picture, it is plain to see that this guy's character is less than desirable. And, I'm angry at myself for falling into his trap. And yes, he is poison....but why is he poison that I want to take so willingly and feel I need?????His wife and I know each other somewhat. She knows who I am and that her H and I are "friends" (and, I suspect she knows how friendly). I would never visit her intentionally or do anything to humiliate her, or hurt her....I've done enough of that already.I definitely need to put a closure on this "relationship" and begin healing. In spite of what he is, I want him in my life so bad...and that is not right. I DO deserve better!!!!!We didn't plan for any of this to happen. It just happened naturally (which made it seem even more "right"). But, this was a choice we made willingly, because there was something missing in our lives. We filled those empty spots with each other. I wouldn't say it was a mistake....just a bad choice. You can't believe how empty I feel now....A short note to Baba2, as far as kids....he is the only guy I've ever met that I would want kids with, if we could.Well, thanks for reading....sorry for the long post. I'm trying to hang in there.....

Hi again DJ,Sorry for your pain. And I can picture me writing the same letter when MM and I finally see each other face to face. But I made closure, and I get stronger each day, so I am hoping I never have to write a similar letter. I KNOW it hurts.But you have to start somewhere for closure to begin.Everything you had with him is still hanging in the air. He has no idea that you are considering dumping him( sorry, "letting him go" worked better for me).Something that helped me when I felt weak, when I would start to write him a big apology letter, or type up an email, was to equate him to cocaine or alcohol.As a nurse, I know the danger that one taste of those to an addict is . And we are addicted to our MM. That is reality. And you have to treat it as such to avoid relapse.The power of his touch and his affection is strong, so you have to be stronger than your addiction.I hope you get through this.You will feel better, just take it one day at a time.Take care........ Mary

dj...i really like MaryRN,s analogy with the drugs, it IS an addiction. and remember, natural doesn't always mean right....hurricanes are natural, but look how destructive they are. you just come when you feel weak...you can do this. how about a little vacation....say a couple of weeks, just to get away from him for a while so you won't see him.....chang your environment...go see an old friend....sometimes it helps give you a new perspective.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by djmusicbox:
I don't really feel as if God is punishing me...I'm just trying to find the point of it all. Maybe it was just a learning experience...and I agree that it is possible to change my life around....and I hope I can stay strong enough to do that!<hr></blockquote>Djmusicbox,I loved this!
It's been four days since you wrote it, and I've been on other threads so I had some catching up to do, but this statement from you (among others) was grand!You've gotten so much help and advice from so many people who are smarter and wiser than "me" on these accounts that there's really nothing I could possibly add...What an amazing case though! Inspiring, really - "suitable for framing" comes to mind.
...All you have to do is the "final finish" (figuratively and literally) and this will be a complete work of art!One of the reasons that "I" can't possibly add anything of practical worth is that from reading all your thoughts you've put in here, it appears clear to me that you are all-the-way there on the black & white of things... only still struggling with the subjective element of "feelings".
Geez... and to think you put yourself in the spot you did signing in with your brutally honest initial post - What a great deal of favor and respect you've earned! Seriously - it strikes me that you must be an absomoshonuffevahmore fantastic personality, and DEFINITELY warrant a better companion than MM could ever be for you.I was looking at your thoughts on how he seemed so wonderful to you, even though you've so honestly faced the reasons why he can't be quite the best package... wonderful in some regards, this fellow most certainly must be - most certainly IS as far as you can tell. (Basically, I believe you is what I am getting at)
But for crying out loud! Aren't YOU wonderful?!?!? (OK, I'm stretching it with a guess here, but I do get a very good impression of you as far as your basic "nature")
Honestly... quit feeling the water with your toes and dive off (or out, or whatever... I made some illustration to that effect a week ago, or so)
Cutting this fellow off might be kind of like an "ectomy" with no anesthesia, but when he's gone you'll be a lot better off. (It's some kind of "tumor" analogy, this time....)To be more current, I think that Starfish's thoughts on "addiction" seemed to be very worthy.Put the final finish on this... I want to frame it, but it's a work not quite complete.Good wishes, be well

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by djmusicbox:
He recently told me that he cares about me a great deal, but does not love me.<hr></blockquote>Djmusicbox,I was just perusing the original post again, and this just jumped up and poked me right smack-dab in the eye...A refresher - kind of beside the point, really since he's someone else's husband
...but (as mean as it seems to draw this forward to focus on) it seems to be important, and maybe just a good 'negative' to help motivate you to perform the excision. (I decided to go with the tumor thing, since YOU are apparently an otherwise pretty healthy spirit)do be well

ilmf....lol i LOVE the tumor analogy...ectomy...heheand i'd love to take credit....but the addiction analogy was MaryRN....figures coming from a nurse!come on dj....just do it!

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by baba2:
make sure you tell NO ONE if you decide you DO NOT WANT TO BEAR AND RAISE children! That is worse than SIN to these people. You can be nearly "killed" for that on this board.<hr></blockquote>baba2,You're obviously not kidding - THIS just jumped out at me and really surprised me.
(I'm a definite pro-have-kids person, and my three are the grandest gift I'll ever have under the sun, but I also know people who don't want kids, don't have kids, never will, and they're darn fine people and very happy... to each his own, I reckon)
Shhhhhhhhh..... but I don't want to derail the great thread that THIS one is - could you please link something or bump something so I can see the thoughts in whatever thread someone got burned in for not wanting kids?shhhhh..... no more about that topic in this thread from me though
thanks!

Hi DJ,
Glad to see you back, and relieved to know that you haven't slipped. For your sake, because though it hurts every day you make it through without contacting him or listening to his voicemail just to hear him speak is a day that you are growing stronger. It's easier to move towards a positive instead of away from a negative, so instead of seeing it as one more day without him, could you do something you've always wanted to do? Sign up for a class, join an exercise group, reading circle, whatever! Give yourself a series of small achievable goals for things you WANT to do and reward yourself for each one.DJ, you love this man, but love is definitely a two-way street. Sorry for the cliche!! Think about it; all your actions have been about love, all his have been about self-gratification. He wants trust and honesty from you to the extent of demanding and getting your email password. He does not give you his in return... He demands sexual fidelity from you, yet you know he is faithful only to himself. As Al Capone said of the Kennedys: "They see women like dogs see lamp-posts. Gotta pee on every single one." It makes him feel good to have you on a string, and he probably enjoyed the little emails, voicemails, little surprise gifts. Quick, easy, no personal cost to himself.I'm deeply concerned by your saying that you want #4 to give in to MM so he won't be hurt. This amounts to saying that she should allow herself to be abused and violated so he can continue to gratify his ego regardless of the cost to anybody else. He wants, therefore he must have? No, DJ. NO. Anyway, it's way beyond time for you to stop looking at him and start looking at yourself. Who are you, what do you stand for, what do want from life? You mentioned His Needs, Her Needs. Have you filled out the questionnaire on your own behalf? My fear is that you read the book and used it to work out what HE wanted, so you could give it to him. Be honest when you do the questionnaire. Try not to let your idealised notion of who this man is colour your responses to the questions. You personally, that essential DJ, what do you want? I know you're crying out "I want MM!" Not so, you want the way you feel when your needs are being met, even partially. I went onto the Oprah site today for the first time, and was converted. Do you know this site? I was just blown away by Dr. Phil, by his commonsense and straight talk. The most important relationship you will ever have is with your self. But who is this self? I particularly liked his approach with the 10 Life Lessons.... I read through how he applied them to a weight loss programme, and wow, I saw the application instantly to love relationships! To me, particularly, as a codependent. And the workbook approach is good. Ten phases, say 10 weeks, allow 20. Thinking out loud, forgive me if you know all this already.Stay strong, for you, DJ. There are lots of us pulling for you. Despite Baba2! I don't care whether or not you ever become a mother. I have a passion though about people becoming their authentic selves.

"We didn't plan for any of this to happen. It just happened naturally (which made it seem even more "right"). But, this was a choice we made willingly, because there was something missing in our lives. We filled those empty spots with each other. I wouldn't say it was a mistake....just a bad choice. You can't believe how empty I feel now...."Me again! I hit send and then remembered this.DJ, I hold by my original contention that you are projecting yourself onto this guy, and that is why you love him. In your first post, you said how you believed for 2 1/2 years that he loved you, because you loved him and you were sure he felt the same. You were not only hurt but really shocked when he said he doesn't love you, cares for you and values your friendship, but is out the door to chase up #4 for sex. It's what BSs hear all the time "I love you but I'm not in love with you....."This bit of your post I've quoted is full of "we." IMO, you should be replacing "we" with "I". You didn't plan for the A to happen - he did. Just as he is deliberately planning for A#4 to happen. Investing a lot of time and effort into it, actually.You said "It just happened naturally." Measles also happen naturally.You said "This was a choice we made willingly, because there were empty spots in our lives. We filled those empty spots with each other."Again, you can only speak for yourself. This man makes a habit of indulging himself. He has all that he needs, which is why he hasn't divorced his wife. There are people who want that little extra luxury, that extra whipped cream on the pie. We call them gluttons when it's food they overindulge in....What I'm trying to say, rather clumsily, is that you were looking to him to meet your NEEDS. He was using you for his WANTS. Advertising people will tell you that people will do anything to gratify a want, even neglect a need.I would believe how empty you feel now, just as any of the BSs who respond to you do. We know from our own experience just how empty one feels. We're empty because we didn't count ourselves worthy without somebody to give ourselves to. In general, BSs are self-less givers, which is not a compliment. You are like a BS in terms of your complete devotion to MM, who has deceived, betrayed and violated you in the same way he has done to his W and probably his previous OW. It's like the parable of the house exorcised of the demon, where the owner cleans, sweeps and decorates. The devil comes back, finds the house all pretty and EMPTY, and moves back in, bringing 7 friends worse than himself.You need to be full of YOU, which is completely different from being full of yourself!Hang in there, DJ. You have a lot of people pulling for you, you're not alone.[ April 27, 2002: Message edited by: juststartingover ]

DJYou said that he never promised you anything. He always told you that he loved his wife and kids and that he would never leave. He said that he was always HONEST with you.Well, DJ, if you study language and comunication you will discouver that 90% of the way we comunicate is non verbal.90%!!!!
We can say anything we want but the truth is in what we do. He has lied to you in his actions.DJ, think about all the things he has told you. "your my soule mate", "I wish I had met you first", "you complete me", I don't need the complete list. He has lied to your heartOne minute he tells you that you can not expect anything form him.
The next minute he is fantasizing about what it would be like if you were together.Please understand that these are lies too. He made promises to your heart.The worst kind of lies. The kind that he knew he could never and planned never to fullfill.He makes the grounds rules clear. Then he gives you HOPE.Honesty?????????????

DJ,I have been following this thread and it pains me to see the struggle you are going with. As someone who has had an EA with someone about 6 years ago I think I can provide some perspective from the MM perspective. Even though I can tell you are totally in Love with him, as a MM who has had an EA, I can see a side of him that I think you are too blind to see.Considering he has openly admitted that he doesn't love you, yet he does all of the right things that make you love him, this should be a major sign for you. He is using you and playing you like a fine instrument. He has discovered his power to control OW through his actions and personality. I can guarantee you that much of his pleasure is in having CONQUERED you. I believe that men like this like the conquest, but don't like the responsibility of a real relationship. I'm sure he conqured his wife at one time also, and wouldn't be surprised if she felt the same as you do. Don't assume that his W was always such a cold person as HE describes. He most likely has made her that way through his actions. Have you considered that?You need to realize you are believing a BIG lie in this man. He isn't as great as he seems as anyone that would hurt someone else (wife and kids) would also hurt YOU. Let's just suppose that he did decide to leave his wife and marry you (which he won't). The whole relationship would change because he would have conquered you and there would be no reason to continue with all the wonderful things he does. He would then go on to conquer someone else, and then someone after that. He has a major problem. If you can just realize it's all a lie, I think you could move on.Obviously you are capable of deep love for someone. This is a quality that is good for a balanced relationship, but terrible when you are with a serial Adulterer. Save this quality to love for someone that deserves it before your heart is hardened to the point of not being able to Love again. This is about your well being.Be strong and you will grow stronger in time.Good luck

I am sorry for your pain. I know this will sound strange, but maybe you can look at this latest OW as a gift. If he's willing to spread himself so thin to be with so many woman, maybe somebody is trying to prove to you that he's just not worthy of your time, effort or emotions.Also, he is seriously risking his wife's health as far as stds go. I didn't know until my H had his affair, but there are 6 stds that can be spread through oral sex alone. Stay away from him. Go to counseling and work on yourself. You'll be glad you did

dj....i have been following and commenting from the beginning....look at how many people have shown up to give you support....you can do this!!!

DJ,From the sounds of it, you are in what I’d call a destructive, addictive relationship. I read part of a book once about the mechanism that sucks people in to this type of relationship. What struck me the most about what I read is that there is actually a physiological reason this ‘addiction’ happens and why it is so hard to break. When a man and woman become physically intimate, their bodies produce a hormone that the book called the ‘bonding hormone’. It’s name started with the letter ‘o’ but I cannot recall its name. The book went on to say that women produce more of this hormone then men do so we become more strongly bonded then the man does. Once this hormone starts to flow. When we are intimate with the man, our bodies produce even heavier doses of this hormone. The book says that it is very hard to end such relationships because the withdrawal, caused by the levels of this hormone decreasing in our bodies, actually hurts physically and emotionally. Dr. Harley suggests that people who are in withdrawal from such a relationship benefit from antidepressants. Have you considered seeing your doctor for this? Reading your posts, it does sound like you are in either some sort of a depression or on an emotional roller coaster. It might help you weather this storm and do what is good for YOU.I searched amazon.com on “addictive relationships”, several books came up that looked interesting. One in particular seemed to specifically address the physiological aspects of addictive relationships, “False Messengers: How Addictive Drugs Change the Brain”.Hope this helps you in some way.

DJ,Where are you? Haven't seen you posting, and I'm sure many here like myself are concerned. Stay in touch to help keep you strong. Please let us know how you are doing. You are missed...

Hi! A big thanks again to everyone for the concern, encouragement and tremendous words of wisdom!! And, a special thanks to Want2FixIt, for sharing a MM's perspective. Everyone has made points I'd like to comment on, but due to a lack of time right now, I need to be quick. Things have been hectic. My Mom has been hospitalized, so I've been running alot.Reading these replies, I see that each of you have made points that are so true.....it is almost like you can see the real him, while I've been so blind (or maybe stupid). Well, the rose-colored glasses have come off and I'm finally seeing the real him, too. (I don't like what I see, but it is obvious.)Anyway, I found an email from him "telling" me that he may get a chance to visit tomorrow....not asking if I'd be free, or what my plans are...but TELLING me, more or less, to be available, at his convenience, just in case he can visit. (That is the way it usually was, but this time it just rubbed me the wrong way!).It sounded so SELFISH. He WANTS me, so I must be free (leave work early, change plans, whatever it takes to be available). It was all about HIS wants, not mine. He mentioned having a sore back from a weekend home construction project and would like a backrub also. There was no mention of what is happening (if anything) with OW4.MaryRN and Zorweb, your addiction analogy was right on the mark. Yes, withdrawal is indeed painful and difficult. It will be hard to fight, but I must. I still want him more than ever, but know I have to do the right thing.....for me!Love is a two-way street, as Juststartingover said. This street definitely focuses only on HIM. But, I guess I'm to blame for that (at least partially), I've probably spoiled him. Nothing seems to be a two-way street with him...not even his marriage. From the contact I've had with his wife, she does seem to be a fairly nice person. Want2FixIt made me realize that it is possible that HE turned her into the cold, uncaring person that he claims she is. (Constantly being suspicious of OW [as she seems to be] would have to be very difficult to deal with. She's done it for a long time, it seems.)If OW4 refuses and he is hurt in the process...well, that's life. I can almost bet that he has left a trail of broken hearts in his path. I think I've inflated his ego enough the past 2+ years.Yes, he "loves" his family and provides for them (and that will never change), but apparently that just isn't enough for him....he still wants more...and keeps seeking out the attention and affection of women.Maybe it makes him feel superior by his ability to conquer unsuspecting women and make them fall into his trap! (and even make them fall in love with him.)He's quite an athletic guy, so maybe each woman is just another "game" to him....he calls the shots, he is in control and he wins by moving on to another when he is ready.Well, I've decided to let him visit so I can tell him in person that I'm "letting him go". (Mary, I think that terminology would work better too.) I can't email him, since I know that it is being monitored by his wife, and I don't want her reading it. She's been through enough with the suspicion alone.I guess it is time to dive into the water, as ILMF suggested, and do what I have to do. Wish me luck! I hope I can do this! I'll keep you posted soon....

dj,i am so thrilled to hear the kind of strength coming from you this evening. i know i am not the only one who will be waiting to congratulate you when you cut this guy loose. show him what you're really make of....remember he is going to try and play you. i wish you were giving him a no contact letter so that you couldn't be swayed by him....but you sound really good....and i believe you can do this. all the best of luck to you!!!!

<blockquote>quote:<hr> I definitely need to put a closure on this "relationship" and begin healing. In spite of what he is, I want him in my life so bad...and that is not right. I DO deserve better!!!!! <hr></blockquote>Yes, you do. I just wanted to stop back in and see how you were doing. This sentence reminds me of friends I have that really want crack in their lives (not making this up). They want it really badly, but we all know that it is not good for them. We always seem to want what is the least good for us. How many of us sit around craving a rice cake? How about pizza? See?If you allow yourself to cave, you will be setting yourself up for this again. He is not going to change his ways, and he doesn't even sound sorry for them. You don't deserve this the first time, let alone repeatedly.Good for you for seeing his selfishness in his email. You wanted to know where the anger was? Sounds like it may be on it's way. Good for you for recognizing your needs. You've come a long way, and you can go farther. It doesn't feel like it at times (I'm in that situation, different circumstances, though.) It's hard to believe in yourself, but you are on your way. You are partially responsible, yes, as you have allowed him to be this way with you. You don't have to continue being partially responsible. Just because we allow someone to do something doesn't mean it it is right for them to do it. Keep it in mind, and keep YOURSELF and YOUR needs in mind. It doesn't matter whether you want 9 kids or 0. You still deserve to be the one and only light in someone's life. You deserve fidelity for your kindness and patience. Remember what YOU deserve and are worthy of.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by djmusicbox:
I still want him more than ever, but know I have to do the right thing.....for me!Well, I've decided to let him visit so I can tell him in person that I'm "letting him go".<hr></blockquote>I think that given the strong feelings you still have for him, letting him come and see you is a very very risky proposition. The chances of you slipping right back into it are extremely high.You say you can't send him an e-mail... OK, why not leave an envelope at your door when he comes, with a nice succinct no-contact letter? Face to face contact at this point will, most likely, lead to body to body contact... (OK, bad pun, sorry).AGG

i agree dj...think about it....and takola has made some excellent points.

<blockquote>quote:<hr> You say you can't send him an e-mail... OK, why not leave an envelope at your door when he comes, with a nice succinct no-contact letter? Face to face contact at this point will, most likely, lead to body to body contact... (OK, bad pun, sorry). <hr></blockquote>I agree with oxymoron, I mean...AGoodGuy... [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] If you see him face-to-face he will turn on the charm you have been talking about. I won't say don't do it, but make sure you are strong enough, first. Remember: DJ is #1, not MM.

Hi DJMB,
Please DON'T see him face-to-face unless it is in a restaurant and you don't allow him to touch you, even so much as to hold your hand. I'm hypoglycaemic, so I have a lot of empathy here. I go through dreadful cycles where I CRAVE carbs, preferably sweet one, and if I give in and eat even one cookie I've had it! Problem is I have an allergic addiction to sugar. That one cookie will lead to a huge binge, and I will end up with a 3-day cluster headache and gooey ears for a week. This knowledge does not stop me once I've bought the cookies or the chocolate bar!I know this, and I have to be firm. It means eating sensibly all the time, because if I slip and let my metabolism get out of whack, I start getting munchies. The moral? If you see him, your hypoglycaemia will kick in and you're going to have a monster craving and probably binge. Besides, if you say goodbye to him in person, and in private, he's bound to want sex just one more time as a special memory to treasure. And that will hurt you even more, because however good it is at the time, you will remember with loathing how you let yourself down.Hang in, you can do this! I like the idea of a note on your door, with you in some place you cannot get out of to run home and say you changed your mind. Could you invite a (female) coworker for coffee at that time?

DJMB,Sorry to hear about your Mom. I hope it isn't life threatening and that she's ok. I'm glad to see you are starting to see how selfish HE really is. Your eyes are being opened every day, and with this knowledge it will give you strength. We are all pulling for you to get through this, so get that "let him go" speech and letter written [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Be prepared for the spoiled man in him to do everything in his power to try and stop you. You have been fulfilling HIS needs, and he's going to want to continue USING you. But I know you can be strong.Go do the right thing! Come back here for support [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Hang in, DJ! Hang tough! Spend time with your mom, not this MM. I have a friend who sticks with her separation from the MM because she says "I have to keep myself clean." Think of it rather as being true to yourself than being untrue to MM. Whatever promises you made him are not valid, because they were made in a void.You say very little about yourself. Are you very much a care giver? Sounds like it. Sounds like you take care of everybody except DJ. She seems to be a very nice person - spend some time getting to know and like her.

Hi dj,You sound so much better today, good for you! I am sorry to hear about your mother, I hope she has a speedy recovery.I had a couple thoughts for you, that may help...I read this somewhere a while ago, and it really turned a light bulb on for me - we women tend to think that if we give more, are loving and sweet and giving, that the man we are with will fall in love with us or love us more. The truth is it doesn't really work that way. If the man knows he doesn't deserve this treatment, isn't as emotionally invested, committed, and giving to us, they will ENJOY it, they will bask in it and take it, it will feed his ego, but they will not appreciate it, and begin to think negitively about our worth and value, disrespect us. I mean we can't really respect someone who just gives without getting much back in return, know what I mean? Think about if you had some guy who you weren't really interested in slaving for you, waiting on your needs and desires, what would you think about this guy? And without respect, without us having boundries, having our own legitimate and reasonable requirements and expectations the guy will not, can not love us. Can you see what I am getting at here?I also agree that you should not see your MM in person. In fact I don't think you need to tell him in any way it is over. I think he MADE it over by ditching you and running after this other OW, by blowing you off for what? a month now with no contact. I understand your desire to talk to him, but I think it is very dangerous. He WANTS you on his string, and as he sees you trying to pull away he will pull out all the charm and persuasion and pretty words and at this point you are still very vulnerable. In my mind I would consider his actions, regarding this other OW, and his blowing me off as HIS break up, a reasonable person would realize the consiquences of doing this to you. He doesn't need or deserve any explaination, and you don't either. I think just consider yourself broke up with him and cut off all contact, he'll eventually get the message.But definately do not meet him face to face, dj, whatever you do. I am afraid you will just put yourself back in the turmoil, when you have made so much progress in seperating emotionally and accepting the truth. It is a very real danger that you would get right back where you were, and later have to go through all this trauma again. Don't take those steps back dj, you are doing so well, and getting stronger.Best to you, keep us posted.Juanita

Hi DJ,
I have to agree with everyone, face to face is VERY dangerous. I tried to leave MM several times, but everytime I saw that smile and that bald head (too sexy for me!!!) I would turn to Jello. And was right back in his arms, cause I felt I belonged there.
If you cannot send him an email, the letter on the door is excellent. You have to end it one way or another, and I do not think you are strong enough yet to do it face to face (trust me, as you know I have been there).But I can hear the strength in you everyday.
When you have more time ( sorry to hear about Mom, hope she is doing better)go back and read your posts fro the beginning. You can hear the strength in your letters with each one.You will have set backs, you will cry, but allow yourself those tears. Something that helped me in the dark days in the beginning of the end ( or was it the beginning of the beginning ? Think about it...) was to set the timer on the stove when I was alone(for 30 mins or more) and just cry.Do not deny the tears.Bizarre, but helpful...try it.
Please get back to all of us, you know we all care, you know we are all pulling for you. I just wish we could sit, have coffee and I could personally tell you have great I feel after 4 months.And I was where you are today, honest!Be good, hug your mother..... Mary

DJ,Please please please do NOT see him in person!! Leave the note as suggested and avoid all contact after he recives the letter you leave him.Now you know he has told you that he doesnt love you. But you can bet your bottom dollar that those words will be uttered from his mouth as a means to try to keep you there. Dont believe it for a second. He loves his CONTROL over YOU, having you be his puppet on a string, there to USE as he pleases, when he pleases. To keep that control, he is going to say many things, tug on each and every one of those heart strings and push all the right buttons. Being in his physical presence is really NOT a good idea!!Also, dont be surprised if he thinks your idea to end it is because he was going to move on to OW4. And expect the, but nothing happened with her, and you mean so much to me. Please dont leave me, I need you. WHATEVER!!! As I stated before, nobody means anything to him other then himself. Not you, not his wife, or the other trail of broken and crushed hearts and hopes this man has left behind. Stay strong and come back here to us!! You know were all supporting you!!!!!((((((((((DJ))))))))))))Ann [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

DJ,Where are you ? It has been two days since we heard from you. We are all worried. If you have fallen that is okay, as there are enough of us here to pick you back up.
Please let us know how you are doing.Mary

DJ, please check in. I'm worried. Is your mom okay?

DJ - We all are pulling for you so don't stay away too long. There are many wise and caring people here that understand your struggle. You are missed...

Hi everyone! Yes, I'm still around. My Mom is home now, doing much better. She had a bout with pneumonia (she's 81, so it was scary). Thank you everyone for your concern, I really appreciate it and it means alot to me. I've just been busy getting things taken care of for her, and haven't been online much.As for me, the night he was supposed to visit, I was all ready to tell him it is over.....but, he didn't come. I'm used to that, too....the family needs him and he can't make it, so I just sit and wait...and wait....finally when it gets late enough, I realize he isn't coming.He called me the next day asking a favor....a long time ago, he told me he planned to give his wife a surprise birthday party for her 40th birthday in June. Being nice, I offered to help, since he didn't have any sisters in the area. Well, he reminded me of my offer and needed some party advice. Of course, I made a few phone calls for him to help out. Why do I do that????The next day was a hectic one at work. I also had some family issues to deal with and personal business. It was a nightmare day, to say the least. When I got home, there he was!!!! All of that anger I had for him flew right out the window. He caught me in a weak moment and I needed him so bad. He always made me smile and made all of the my problems disappear. I am so ashamed and sorry...I disappointed all of you plus myself. I couldn't say anything I wanted to say. Today was the clincher, though. I had some information on a hall rental for him (for the party) and wanted to drop it off during his lunch. I knew where he would be so decided to take it to him, rather than call. Well, when I pulled in the parking lot, there he was.....in a car with a woman!!!!! Yes, OW4, I'd imagine! He saw me and put his head down, probably thinking I wouldn't see him, but I did.It was just a knife through my heart. They weren't doing anything (at that point, anyway), just sitting there. Just seeing him in her car tore me apart. I drove away. I knew he'd call me, and sure enough, a short time later my cell phone rang. I didn't answer. When I got home, I found two messages on my answering machine also. I'm not talking to him. He knows how much this hurt me and now he can wonder what I'm going to do....Everyone's advice on not seeing him was great. I wanted to tell him in person because it was something that I needed to do for myself. I could have if he came the night he was supposed to. I needed to be strong enough to look him in those darn eyes and tell him its over. But maybe now I won't have to. He knows I'm upset and hurt. I am going to avoid his calls, emails or whatever. I just can't and don't want to talk to him or see him right now.It is funny that Justartingover mentioned me being a care giver. You're right on the button with that one. Everyone else has always come first in my life (family, my MM of course, work, friends...). There is just no time for ME. Maybe that is why the time I spent with him was so special. It was time that I spent doing what I wanted, not something someone else wanted me to do for them. Well, that's what has been happening. I know I shouldn't see him in person. I don't think I will after today's incident. I don't care to anymore. Even though I knew about OW4 it just hurt to see them together. (Especially somewhere him and I used to be.) I feel hurt, sad, angry and yet relieved, if that is possible. I know he will try to contact me soon, but I'm avoiding him.A big thank you to everyone for caring! I'll be in touch!

sigh....we warned you....well, enough of that...try REAL NO CONTACT this time. Write the no contact letter. Change your phone numbers. And for goodness sake......stop helping this f***ing jerk!!! i'm glad you came back. keep trying to do the right thing dj. i wish you had the nerve to call his wife....probably get blasted for saying that...but i do.

<blockquote>quote:<hr> i wish you had the nerve to call his wife....probably get blasted for saying that...but i do. <hr></blockquote>No blasts here, Star. I agree with all of your post, 100%!As for what happened, DJ, I am sorry. I do wish this hadn't happened, and I'm sure you do, too. It did happen, though, and you still aren't a bad person. We all make mistakes, especially where we care the most. We are all weak sometimes. What makes us stronger is picking ourselves up, dusting off, and going on. Stop any and all contact with him. Send him a no-contact letter. I'd send it to his house, but that's just me. However you do it, make sure you do it. No contact, not for birthdays, halloween, cinco de mayo, the third tuesday after equinox, whatever. Not for any reason. You have to protect yourself, this jerk will not do it for you.He's like a fungus, he will just take and take and take without any regard for you. Until DJ is destroyed. He is about 90% taker, especially where you are concerned. Contact with him will only bring you more pain, especially since your eyes are opened now and you know what to look for.You say you are a care-giver. Please give DJ some care, you really need it right now.

Hi DJ,Glad you are still with us, and I am sorry you are hurting.It feels very strange to love and hate someone at the same time, doesn't it?And, Starfish is very correct, you have to write that no contact letter, if you are serious about ending it with him. My MM kept coming back over and over after attempted break ups, but my letter made it final.And true no contact is just that, no contact.Let him plan his own party, let him make his own phone calls. You have much better uses for your time, like spending it on yourself. Avoid all places he will be.Tell him his wife gets a call everytime he tries to contact you.
And keep in mind, this will hurt like nothing else, but it is so worth it in the end.Sometimes anger is a good motivator, so this seeing him with OW4 could be a blessing in discuise (but it is difficult to see that right now).Make it final, do not wait for him to come crawling back, and you and I know he will.Enough of my lecturing.... hope Mom is doing well at home. Pneumonia in the elderly can be scary.Give her a big hug for us, cause we all love our Mommies!!We will continue to support you in this,honest we will.I am 4 months into my recovery and really do feel better with each passing day. I do recall the pain of those first few days, knowing it was final.But I live each day staying true to my end of the no contact deal. I avoid his area of town(he is a cop), I try not to speed , and I do not drive by his house. Why set myself up for pain.He also knows how much it will hurt me to see him, so he avoids the hospital. Someone said he respects me by doing this, so I am happy for that.Like I said to you before, I may fall all to pieces if and when I do see him again.But I am holding myself accountable to me, and to everyone here who are all so supportive.
No contact works well, you just have to take the first step.Yeah, it hurts, prepare for that one.But the pain eventually eases.Take care...... Mary

DJAt least you were honest about what happened, I respect you for that!!Back sliding is no suprise. You are new to this resolve. The strength to do what you need to do takes time and knowledge.You are an amazing young woman. It takes a ton of courage to come on this forum and stay with all of us for 10pages. I truly believe that you will sever yourself from this leach and be stronger for it. I wish my own daughter were so wise. You deserve a relationship with a real man
not a cakeman.[ May 03, 2002: Message edited by: gottruth? ]

DJ,Glad to see you are here and still working on this for you. I'm also happy to hear your mother is ok. I can see that the hurt that you have knowing he is with OW4 is real, and I'm sure you know that this pain will keep coming back over and over until you end it once and for all. You only need to take control of your life back from him - you have the power. When he says to be somewhere and then doesn't come, he just keeps showing you that he isn't the wonderful man you imagine. He probably is having trouble juggling all of the women and is using you as "the standby" because he knows you will take it. Take control with the no contact letter as others have suggested for your own well being. He certainly doesn't care about you as much as you want to imagine he does as evidenced by his own actions. And isn't planning the W's birthday party or helping him with it just a good reminder that he is married and intends to stay that way? This seems to me to be a form of abuse towards you. I'm guessing you want his approval and would help to get that, but somewhere inside, you must be feeling a bit conflicted on this request no?Why not start by just sitting and writing the no contact letter? Going through that process should strengthen your resolve. One step at a time to get you through. Maybe posting this letter to this group would make it easier to take the next step of giving it to him. I'm sure others here could help you refine it or have suggestions on getting started. Please don't stay away from your support group so long this time [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Best wishes

Hello everyone! Thanks for all of your replies and continued encouragement, even though I blew it the first time and apologize for that.Well, he still has been calling me, leaving messages. I'm not answering his calls or emails. As many of you suggest, I should work on the no contact letter, and just leave it for him. I know he will be filled with excuses for me seeing him with that woman. He is good at stories and always comes up with an answer. I can't believe I could have been so fooled by him. How could I have been so dumb??? How could he have come into my life and just sweep me off my feet...when I should have been smarter than that??I'm avoiding him until I get the no contact letter finished. Thanks for the offer of help on it. If I get in a pinch, I'll let you know. I just need time to sit and collect my thoughts and write it.Well, I just wanted to let you know what has been happening. I've been busy catching up on things that I've neglected while I've been at the hospital with Mom. She is home and is doing great. Hope all of you are doing well, also. I do appreciate the care and concern everyone has given me. You are helping me so much! Take care and I'll be in touch!

Hi Dj,You sound just a little better, a little more determined ! This is good ! And the power you will get from the no contact letter will be incredible. It will hurt, let's not deny that one. But it will give you some control over him, for probably the first time in your relationship. And remember some of the pointers given by everyone here. Don't make it too flowery, don't make it too long.Sound serious and firm.But you can be kind as well, just do not leave areas for him to read hope into it. I wanted to leave a little spark in mine when I wrote it, but decided not to. And he has respected me and has not tried to contact me since the letter.I still love him beyond words, but will not act on those feelings.Someone asked me once, if he left her, would you date him again. Hard to say, but he would need at least 6 months alone to get his act together. Men cannot live without a woman, or so it seems (sorry to all the men out there ).And your OM seems to like lots of women to "help him out".
Hope you are doing okay. We will all keep you in our prayers.And you have no reason to apologize to any of us, just yourself.Mary

[ May 05, 2002: Message edited by: Delicia ][ May 05, 2002: Message edited by: Delicia ]

[ March 17, 2005, 05:22 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]

DJ-I just wanted to let you know, I'm still pulling for you even if I haven't posted anything and am supposed to be leaving the board.I just spend a lot of time replying and that's mostly what I'm avoiding, but I'm interested to see what happens to those folks to whom I have become acquainted. Don't want to leave myself hanging.Hoping

Hello to all!Well, after avoiding his calls, he caught me unexpectedly and we came face to face. I didn't have much choice but to talk to him. We didn't have time for a deep discussion, but I mentioned seeing him in the car with the OW. I knew he would have a story. He said she was "a business associate"...oh come on!! (Ha! He must have forgotten that long ago that was the same story he said he would use about us, if he had to.)A few days ago, I was strong and determined to do the right thing. Then today, I'm in one of those down, depressed moods. I just want to keep him in my life somehow. (Even though I know that's impossible.) I do need to write the no contact letter soon, but I don't want to say goodbye for good. He truly is not what I saw him to be. He was such a bright ray of sunshine which now turned into a dark, gloomy cloud. So why is it so hard for me to put a closure on this once and for all????And yes, Want2FixIt, it seems I am the "standby". But maybe that is all I really deserve to be. I know he will stay married (and I want him to), so I never expected more with him. My disappointment is because I never expected another OW to enter the picture. (But then again, I shouldn't have been in the picture, to begin with!) I know HE is the one with the problem....he said he was happy with me...I did nothing wrong to cause this....he admit it was HIS problem....but I still feel like I failed him somehow...or he wouldn't have done this.Odile, thank you for sharing your story. My sympathy to you on the loss of your brother. People do make poor choices sometimes (I sure know I have). I guess people expect the grass to be greener on the other side of the fence, but when we get there we find out that it isn't. In spite of the way life turned out, it sounds like your parents do have a deep, long-lasting love for each other. I know I need to get this guy out of my life for good (and soon, too). I've known that for a long time, just feel so empty without him.As you can probably tell, it isn't a good day. I'm depressed and confused. I've gotten so much support and encouragement here, that it should be easy for me to do what I have to do. But, this guy really is the love of my life....why, I don't know. Everyone has been so patient with me and I thank you for that.

djmusicbox,I'm sure that everyone can say they have better days than others. The key is you know where you need to go, and have taken steps in the right direction. You say <blockquote>quote:<hr>it seems I am the "standby". But maybe that is all I really deserve to be<hr></blockquote> but I disagree. You really deserve a relationship that can bring lifetime of happiness. I think you know deep down it is just a matter of time before this relationship is over, so why not end it on YOUR terms instead of HIS? You will feel better about yourself for taking control of your life. I know someone that clung to a man for 15 years hoping somehow he would eventually ask her to marry her. As it turns out, he ended up marrying someone about 15 years younger than her and she remains unmarried. Why waste any more time with this man who does not deserve you? Go find someone who will love you without hinderence?We all have bad days but tomorrow is a new day. Don't give up the fight.

<blockquote>quote:<hr> it seems I am the "standby". But maybe that is all I really deserve to be<hr></blockquote>DJ, this is exactly the type of feeling that Mr. Worm (MM) feeds off of to continue to manipulate you. Yes, he chose you because of this attitude that you don't DESERVE better. You do deserve better. HE will never convince you (or even try to) that you do deserve better. Your self-confidence undermines his uses for you. I know this is harsh, but it is true. You DESERVE better, much better.
You DESERVE to be happy, much happier.
You DESERVE respect.
You DESERVE real love.I think that you would greatly benefit from some counseling to understand just how great a person you really are, and how much you really deserve.
[img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

DJThe love of your life?Dj, could you have missued the word love. Could you define love please.Maybe a better word is need. The need of your life. Is it possible that in the begining he supplied a need for you. The need to be special cames to mind. Actually, I believe this is what the emotional abuser does. He makes you feel special and needed. My daughters MM was a great listener. She would tell him everything and he would valadate her in every way. His opinion was the most important to her. As she graved his approval, he started to with hold it. The hook is set.I know that right now you feel a dreadfull loss. The need is more than you can bare. DJ, you are stronger than you think. Please reread this thread and see where you were a few days ago. It's expected to feel depressed. It's expected that you might justify staying with him. But you won't do that now. Your eyes are seeing too clearly and it would never be the same. You need your self-esteem back. I think one does this by doing selfesteemable things. I know this is hard but you deserve to do this.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>But you won't do that now. Your eyes are seeing too clearly and it would never be the same. <hr></blockquote>That's true, DJ. You can never un-know what you've learned.

DJ,I am sorry for your pain. I really am. You sound like a very confused lady, and it must hurt to have a someone cheat on you, even if he was already cheating with you [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] .OK, with that said, I would like to remind you that you are on the Marriage Builders website. Regardless of how sad I am for your pain, I can't help but remember that there is a woman out there whose husband (your MM) is cheating on her. You are now on page 11 of your saga, and yet you are continuing to see this man, and thus continuing to destroy his marriage. Please don't tell me how his marriage is already ruined by his wicked wife blah blah blah. That's between him and her.I tried to give you some advice here; others have too. Unfortunately, you have chosen to continue your affair, even though you (appear to) realize that it is wrong. When OP's come to this website and try to change their ways, they are certainly welcome. But realize that there are plenty of people here whose personal lives have been shattered by affairs, and it becomes quite painful to see someone post about their continuing affair. Don't get me wrong, I really hope that you can dump this guy and move on with your life. Also, I am by no means trying to be holier than thou, or tell you to stop posting. I just think that if you really want to get help for a continuing affair, you might do better at gloryb. I think people here might get frustrated with the fact that despite all the advice you've been given here, you are still continuing to see this married man.I see some people here say that you deserve better. Frankly, I'm not sure I understand. Why do you deserve better? You have chosen to start sleeping with a married man, and continuing to do so for a long time. Why does that mean that you deserve better? What have you done to "deserve better"? Perhaps I don't understand that phrase, but from what I've seen so far, you have made your bed and are continuing to sleep in it, so you deserve what you get.Gosh, this sounds like a total flame, and it is not meant to be, so my apologies. But, at the same time, I think the reality is that you are continuing to avoid doing the right thing, and are wallowing in the sadness of the consequences of your own actions; at some point, I think it may be better to stop validating the harmful behaviors and to say "enough", start living the rest of your life.Write that no contact letter, send it, and stick to it. Then I'll be more than happy to support you! But, I cannot support you continuing to "bump" into this guy...Sorry for the rant... I'll edit this out if it creates too much controversy... [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] AGG

Now think of your pain, and multiply it by at least 4 to understand his wife's pain. And the fact that she's being exposed to countless stds. And lives with a liar and a cheater but doesn't know it. Not very nice thought is it?

AGoodGuy,I think your post makes valid points but here's my perspective. Those that are strong should help those that are weak, even if they have done something that we don't like. Right now, my W is the WS and I could easily have no empathy for DJ if I chose not to. I chose to, because I feel I can overlook her actions on the hope she will change. By helping her we are indirectly helping the MM family also which is a good thing. For me, I may get insights into my W's state of mind so that helps me.So why would I say she deserves better? This is based upon a judgement that she is basically a good person that has made a BIG mistake, like many of us on this board, and needs to get out of it. If people here can provide the knowledge and encouragment, then by all means she is in the right place.I believe that those who are hurting from OP should avoid threads like this if it brings too much pain. I think most do anyway.DJ, you have the knowledge of what to do, you know the pain that you are causing to the people involved, take the next step and write the letter. Don't allow the addiction to this man to ruin your's and others lifes. If you are sincere about getting out of this relationship, then please stick around here and feel welcome. If you are not sincere, then I would agree with AGG that you should go away and come back when you are ready to make a change. I for one will be here to encourage and help you if I can.

DJI would like to reply to agoodguy here on your thread.AGG
While I agree with ALL that you said and also agree that it needed to be said, I have another thought.DJ has been in a FOG of denial and even Harley says that this takes time to swim through. DJ has been brain washed by this abuser and I do believe that she is seeing this. Right DJ?!?DJ
Your letters are full of contradictions, your feelings vs. your reality. You know his BS and yet you crave denial. This is what happens with knowledge, it gives you power, the power to do what you know is right. You know that you want a relationship that is ALL yours.
You know that you have to "shut the door" on this distructive relationship in order for that to happen.
You know that if you don't, he will still have you as part of his HAREM in five years.
You know that HE does not LOVE you,because love
WON'T MAKE LIEING EXCUSES
ISN'T RUDE
ISN'T SELFISH
<<<<<<<<<WOULD WANT WHAT IS BEST FOR "YOU">>>>>>
DELIGHTS IN THE TRUTH
LOVE DOES NOT USE
You know that you have to swim through this pain in order to regain your self-esteem, and move on.You have the knowledge. Print out this thread and read it over and over. This knowledge will give the strength to:
block his calls
block his E-address
You owe him nothing.Write a note:
I want to move on and have a love that is ALL mine. If you ever cared for me, show me by not contacting me ever again.OK DJ, step up to the plate.

Want2FixIt and gottruth?,Thanks for not blasting my rant [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] . Like I said at the outset, I would like to be able to help DJ get out of her situation. That's why I told her to not see the MM, but to write him the no-contact note. Yet I see that she is continually managing to "run into" him... She is not giving us the gory details, thankfully, but I am inferring that they are doing a bit more than just "bumping" into each other.I guess I can accept that DJ is weak and is having trouble letting go of this love of her life. I would be happy to validate her feelings of pain and angst. What I am protesting against is validation of her continuing self-destructive (not to mention other-people-destructive) actions. She knows what she needs to do, and she is choosing not to do it. On a personal level, I empathize with DJ. It's sad to see anyone in pain. Yet let's not forget, that there is a Mrs. MM out there somewhere, from whom DJ is continuing to steal by having an affair. For all we know, Mrs. MM is posting on GQII right now, asking how to get her H to stop seeing all these other women. I guess I have to admit that given my own story, I tend to sympathize more with her situation than with DJ's. But even my personal bias aside, I think it is in DJ's best interest to simply do the right thing.Unlike many OP's who come to MB to get support for their continued affairs, DJ actually seems to want to end hers. At some point, however, the actions start speaking louder than words. Writing a no-contact letter should have been fairly easy for DJ, yet she chose not to do that, and to see the MM instead. I'm sorry, but I don't buy the excuses of "oh, he always knows what to say to make me do whatever he wants to, even arrange his W's b-day party"... That is just plain sick...When I see some steps by DJ to end this affair, I'll be the first (well, probably second) to cheer her on. But for now, all I see is the woe-is-me attitude which is part of denial.Again, don't mean to flame DJ, but just to explain my thoughts on this.AGG

Ok, some more advice that will sting. First of all, he will NOT be cheating on you with the next OW. He will be cheating on his wife - again. He has no committment to you, his committment is to his wife, whom he married. It was to her that he promised to "love, honor, and cherish, forsaking all others" - not to you. That's the committment he is breaking.Second, while you are meeting some of the EN of this man, SO IS HIS WIFE. Maybe you realize this, but it is not apparent in your message. Third, this man can AND DOES lie. He's lying to his wife, to whom he made a life-long committment. What makes you think that as the OW you are above the lies?Fourth, this man does not seem to love his wife, you, or the other OW as much as he loves himself.Conclusion - get out while you can. You are causing extreme grief to yourself and to another woman for the loyalty of a man that has none.I'm re-posting this from earlier. I have a feeling that you need to read it again. How you are feeling about the other OW? How his wife has felt for YEARS. Hers are far more justifiable feelings, though, because she had the committment of marriage to base her expectations of fidelity on.You DON'T. I'm not sure how I can make this any more clear.Would you get in her car and drive it all over town whenever you wanted to? Do whatever you wanted with it? No, of course not, that's absurd. Let me explain something, though, you are doing it with her HUSBAND, and that is far more hurtful and absurd than the car example. You are getting run over in the process. You do deserve better, but SO DOES HIS WIFE. So what if she doesn't meet all of his emotional needs? It is NOT your place to step in and do it. So what if his marriage could be better? He should go to marital counseling - not another woman. She could be the most horrible person on earth, but MM is still HER husband. In that case, he should divorce, then move on. Of course, he doesn't want to. He wants a harem. As many as he wants, when he wants. What an egocentrical, self-absorbed, pompous jack-a**!You are not responsible for his actions. You are responsible for yours, though. I agree with AGG on this one, you do need to put your money where your mouth is. You know you are doing the wrong thing, and you feel guilty. Guilt is a natural response to knowingly doing the wrong thing. Your guilt does not make up for the wrong actions you took; you still need to stop.I re-iterate counseling for you. You seem to have severe self-esteem issues, and I think a bit of an addictive personality.[ May 07, 2002: Message edited by: Takola ]

I'd like to send a warm thank you for the supportive comments by Want2FixIt and Marry.To AGG and Takola:
I can understand your frustration with me and apologize if I offend you (or anyone else). I realize that interference by an OP has hurt a great many people here. I am sincere when I say that I DO NOT want this affair to continue. I am not asking for sympathy or wallowing in self-pity.The recent contact that I've had with him has NOT been physical....I've found phone messages and emails from him. I have NOT called him nor emailed him. I do not arrange to "run into him". Due to our job duties and locations, occasional passing on the street is unavoidable. Yes, I am having trouble letting him go. I think anyone who is capable of loving someone would have trouble letting them go, no matter what the circumstances are. I agree with Marry in saying that I have been in a fog of denial. He was my image of the "perfect man" (if there could be such a thing). Thanks to all the insight I've gotten, I now see him for what he really is: a man with a compulsion to cheat, as many times as necessary, for self-gratification.You say that writing the no contact letter should have been fairly easy. Why? Yes, I am angry and disappointed with him, but it is still not an easy thing to do. I know it needs to be done, and I will do it. I am not making excuses but my time has been hectic lately with family and work issues. Writing the no contact letter is one more thing I will deal with.Marry also made the point that "my eyes are seeing too clearly and it would never be the same". She is so right. The spark and excitement I used to feel when I heard his voice is gone. I've learned too much about him. Although I'll always love him dearly, I've changed and do not want to be with him.Takola, as an adult, I take full responsibility for my actions. I am to blame -- not him, not his wife, or the state of their marriage. I never passed the blame onto anyone. As for his wife, a marriage based on a lack of trust, doubt and tension must not be a happy one. I do sympathize with her for that. And, thank you to Want2FixIt for seeing that I am basically a good person who made a BIG mistake. That is exactly what happened. I'm not a mean, vicious OW bent on destroying someone's life. I'm not out to find happiness at someone else's expense. Marriage and family are very important to me. I fell in love and made the wrong choice. It wasn't planned, but it happened. I will do the right thing, as soon as I can. Thank you everyone for your care and concern.

Sorry....my last post went thru twice! I wanted to delete it, but couldn't! [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img]

Sounds like you are on the right track!

Hang in there, DJ. You can do it, you will do it.I understand how hard it is. For me, as a BS, it made far more sense to just get the hell out of this broken marriage. I saw my H in a very different light, not exactly heroic or even admirable. Yet I still love him and that's why I hung in. I've been lucky. My FWH is completely with me now, but I will never again trust him or love him with that innocence and shine. You know what? Letting the betrayer go sets you free yourself! True! From my own experience.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by djmusicbox:
To AGG and Takola:
I can understand your frustration with me and apologize if I offend you (or anyone else).<hr></blockquote>Thank you [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] . I certainly am not offended, just frustrated... <blockquote>quote:<hr>The recent contact that I've had with him has NOT been physical....<hr></blockquote>Hmmm, maybe I misunderstood this phrase then: "He caught me in a weak moment and I needed him so bad."...?? <blockquote>quote:<hr>I do not arrange to "run into him".<hr></blockquote>Then what does this mean: "I had some information on a hall rental for him (for the party) and wanted to drop it off during his lunch. I knew where he would be so decided to take it to him, rather than call."???

<blockquote>quote:<hr>You say that writing the no contact letter should have been fairly easy. Why? Yes, I am angry and disappointed with him, but it is still not an easy thing to do.<hr></blockquote>Why is it not easy? Never mind, I'll write one for you:
"Dear MM, I am finished with our relationship. Please do not contact me in any way shape or form from this day forward. DJ". How's that? <blockquote>quote:<hr>I am not making excuses but my time has been hectic lately with family and work issues. Writing the no contact letter is one more thing I will deal with.<hr></blockquote>Excuses is exactly what you are making... <blockquote>quote:<hr> Although I'll always love him dearly...<hr></blockquote>You'll be surprised how quickly this will change, once you stop contact! <blockquote>quote:<hr>I will do the right thing, as soon as I can. Thank you everyone for your care and concern.<hr></blockquote>Just don't see the MM until then, please! Good luck DJ!AGG[ May 07, 2002: Message edited by: AGoodGuy ]

AGG - I had to chuckle at your suggested no contact letter, "Dear MM, I am finished with our relationship. Please do not contact me in any way shape or form from this day forward. DJ". As my suggestion was similar "I can no longer be involved with a married man." Or, better yet, no letter at all, just cut off all contact. But I do understand dj when you say that writing the no contact letter is so hard, part of why I think it best for you to consider yourself broken up with him NOW and act accordingly, with or without a no contact letter. I can't think of much that is harder to do than break up with someone you sincerely love, and whether or not she should, whether or not this guy reciprocates or deserves it, I believe dj's feelings are sincere. So, I just wanted to pop in dj and say I do understand it is very, very hard. Best to just continue to avoid contact, and take steps to make that even more definate, with or without a no contact letter.Dj, I think it's very likely that you are more in love with who you thought this guy was, who he allowed you to see, than the real him. Now that you are starting to see and realize some negitive things about him, perhaps you may realize it isn't the real him you've been in love with, and maybe that would help your resolve and emotional distancing.This MM reminding you of your offer to help with his wife's birthday party, while he's persuing yet another woman no less, and has blown you off for a month to do so, just makes me want to puke. What a user, dj! Ok, you had offered, but if this man had any decency at all, he wouldn't be married to one lady, chasing after an OW, then allowing you, when he is of course aware of your feelings, to help with a birthday party for the woman he is committed to (such as it is in this case). Dj that is just so disrespectful and thoughtless.But, it sounds like you are begining to see how this man acts and treats you, and I am glad. I understand how painful this must be for you dj, but you sound so much better and I know you will continue to get better and see clearer if you hang in there. What helped me was to just break things off, regardless of my feelings, then deal with those feelings within myself, while still acting as I had decided to and should act - with no contact. Don't act on your feelings dj regarding him, act on what your head is telling you.glad to hear your mom is doing better.Put dj first dj, work on your self esteem, work on teaching yourself you deserve to have someone who cares for, takes care of, respects you. Work on your inner strength and your boundries - so that next time you are considering a relationship you expect and insist on good and equal treatment. Insist on something that is healthy and mutual, where you are on equal footing. Pamper yourself for a while dj, learn to meet your own needs and find happiness and fulfillment with yourself, and take care of your mom and your life, find a healthy balance again without this man. Become detirmined not to be used or taken advantage of again. Embrace the fact that you deserve that, and have the right to expect it. Build your life back up without this man. You very likely are going to be a stronger and healthier lady after going through this rough time dj. And even though I'd give up some of my strength for not having gone through some of the really tough things I've had to, it's still something [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Best of luck, keep us posted.Juanita[ May 08, 2002: Message edited by: Juanita ]

DJHow old are you? How old is MM?Does anyone remember an age given?Just courious?

DJ, how are you?You really can do this, even though you fear the loneliness and emptiness. Tell you what, it is much easier to deal with loneliness on your own than be lonely when you're with somebody. And even if you stayed with this guy, you will always be lonely now, always wondering who's in his mind, who he's thinking of when he's in your bed, who's next on his "to do" list. BSs have this to live through as well.I just wanted to make it very clear that I do not blame my FWH's XOW for the A. Had my H been the man I thought he was, he would not have responded to her lures (yes, she was the aggressor) and he would not have betrayed me in the way he did, while still continuing to assure me of his love and being affectionate with me. So my H is NOT the man I thought he was. But I have come to know both him and myself, truely, and on those grounds I made the decision to stay - on the absolutely non-negotiable basis that he was fully committed to the same ideal of marriage, or I was out, love or no love.Hon, I want you to look at this picture. A man who will be glorying in all the praise and admiration for giving his W such a lovely 40th birthday party. Who did the real work? One of his OW, who is running around and making calls, organising a hall and getting catering quotes while he uses the time she saves him to pursue yet another OW. At the same time this man complains that his W is not loving or generous with him....

Doesn't that set your teeth on edge? Makes me want to barf, bigtime.

DJI was under the impression that you were in your 20's. This was MY mistake. Your MOM is 81 so you would have to be in your 40's? Not that this changes anything but---Hmm.How are you doing?Hmmmmmm

<blockquote>quote:<hr> Takola, as an adult, I take full responsibility for my actions. I am to blame -- not him, not his wife, or the state of their marriage. I never passed the blame onto anyone. As for his wife, a marriage based on a lack of trust, doubt and tension must not be a happy one. I do sympathize with her for that. <hr></blockquote>Taking full responsibilty is a first step. You haven't passed the blame for your actions, no. I do not believe that you are a vicious OW out to destroy marriages. S*** happens. It is how you deal with it that counts.The point that I AM trying to make is that you have been over a month now trying to get over this MM. That part is ok, it will take a very long time. What concerns me is that in that month, you have yet to draft or send a no contact letter. It seems an awful lot like procrastination. Emotionally, it is hard to do. But physically, it is not. Takes just a small amount of time, a stamp, and a mailbox. That's all. I'm concerned that you are waiting until you are "ready". You will be waiting a long time for that, I'm afraid. Like waiting to be "ready" to be stuck with a needle. Just do it and get it over with. 3 months from now the no contact letter will probably not be any easier to write, either. You can't stop your feelings, or your hurt. You can control your actions and take meaningful steps forward.

This whole thread is making me puke! Sorry but she could end it if she wanted to, the MM is not holding a gun to her head! A Good Guy's analysis of the situation is right on! END IT ALREADY! AND QUIT LYING TO US AND TO YOURSELF!Perhaps there is an "Affair Builders" board that would be more helpful...[ May 09, 2002: Message edited by: baba2 ]

Gottruth?, for what it is worth, I am 46, MM is 42 and his wife will soon be 40. We are definitely old enough to know better....so I can't blame all this on being young and naive.I'm doing ok. Haven't had any contact with him. He is still leaving messages, but I am not responding in any way, shape or form.Juanita, it was good to hear from you. I hope you are doing well, also. As you suggested, I do consider myself broken up with him. I do NOT plan on seeing him or having contact with him. He can try all he wants, but I'm not responding. I've changed and learned way too much.You've made a point that really hit home. It made me realize that I was indeed in love with who I thought he was....the image of the "perfect man" that I wanted him to be. Although I knew there never could be a future for us, I really felt that he was the guy meant for me. Now, seeing him for what he really is, instead of what I thought he was, changes everything. I'm not saying I don't still love him, because I do. He brought too much joy into my life to just forget or pretend it never happened. But, it is a different kind of love now. It is no longer that beautiful, romantic, exciting kind of love it once was. Now it is more of a mellow, "caring" type of love. In spite of what AGG says, I will always have feelings for him; not the same deep love I once had, but feelings, nontheless.Takola, ok maybe my lack of writing a no contact letter sounds like procrastination. I have NO intention to see him. With or without a letter, I know it is over. But I do understand why such a letter is so important. I think he will get the message after repeated attempts at contacting me with no response. And you are right, months from now it will not be any easier to write. I just don't know if it is really necessary, as long as I know I do NOT want to be with him. As for HIM knowing that, maybe I should just let him figure it out.So everyone, for now things are ok. I'm dealing with this day-by-day. There really is a small glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel.

DJ,I am glad you are well, and sounding so much stronger....day by day....it is a process. The no contact letter could help a lot. It is a symbol, a written representation of you severing your relationship with this man. It is somewhat like a funeral in the sense that it provides closure for everyone. I would strongly suggest that you mail a copy of it to his wife....she deserves better than him, as do you. I am glad to see you responding with grace and determination, accepting responsibility...and I look forward to the day you come here and say...."What did I ever see in that man!" Good luck to you. Keep going.

[img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] bravo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

djmusicbox,I'm happy to see you have decided on no contact and to break it off. You have come so far since you first came to this website [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I would like to encourage you to write the no contact letter because it is important to give yourself every opportunity to have a successful breakup. We all have our weaknesses, and we need to protect against them. The letter helps to do that. It makes it clear to the OM what's going on, so you aren't tempted with emails, phone calls, drive by's etc. You allow him to be part of the solution. You owe it to yourself and his family to take this step. It may be painful, but I think you will feel better for it because for once, you will be in control, not him.The letter shouldn't say or have anything in it that would provide hope for the OM (no purfume). He needs to be totally clear that there isn't any point to contact you. If you are serious about making this breakup stick, you need to take this step. I get the feeling you aren't taking this step, because you really do want to keep your options open. That means you haven't given him up yet.Let's use an analogy. If you were a drug addict, and your best friend were a dealer, would it be dangerous to ever see your drug dealer friend again, once you decided to get sober? Well you are the addict, and he's the dealer. I think if you were in this situation, it would be obvious that you needed to never see the dealer again!Here's a no contact letter sample for you to use:
MM, I want you to know, that I have come to realize that our relationship was wrong and is damaging to everyone involved especially your wife and children. I hope you will seek help for your families sake. I will not make any further contact with you, and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship. Sincerely, djmusicbox
CC: MM Wifedj, Please take this important step![ May 10, 2002: Message edited by: Want2FixIt ]

Hello to everyone again!The no contact is still in effect. When I think about his lies and deceit, I'm more determined than ever not to see him. I don't think I'd be able to trust him or anything he ever said, anyway. A part of me wishes there was a possibility of just being "friends" (nothing more) with him, since we did have so much in common. But I'm smart enough to know that can't happen because this "addiction" has to end.Want2FixIt, thank you so much for the sample letter! It will help me tremendously! Whenever I tried to think about writing one, I was lost for words.I do have a question, though:Although I understand the purpose of the letter and how important it is (for him and I), I don't understand why his wife should see it.It would seem to me, that since she has been suspicious for so long, giving her such a letter would be like pouring salt on her wound. How could I tell her that her "loving" husband really DID betray her??? (And not just with a one-night stand, but a lengthy relationship with me.) She HAS accused him of infidelity and of course he always had an answer for her. He told her he didn't have time, he's too busy with her and the kids, he loves her too much and was offended that she even thought he would do such a thing.I am somewhat acquainted with her, and I wouldn't have the heart to hurt her even more. She seems to have a low self-esteem of herself, usually calling herself "fat, ugly and stupid." How could I rub her nose into the fact that "yes, for whatever reason, it really DID happen"? And how could her knowing possibly help her or their marriage?? (Ok, I know their marriage situation is their problem, not mine, but I'm curious.)I will consider sending him the letter to put a closure on this relationship. Thanks again for your words of wisdom and concern!PS: Starfish, I don't know if I'll ever ask myself "what did I see in him". It was something I never saw before in anyone and doubt I'll ever see again! But whatever it was, it left an impression on my heart.

dj,I'm happy to see the letter helps [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I can understand why it would be difficult to put words to it when you are in the fog, which is why I did it. <blockquote>quote:<hr>I do have a question, though:Although I understand the purpose of the letter and how important it is (for him and I), I don't understand why his wife should see it.
<hr></blockquote>
Others may disagree, but I think she has a right to know. She is the one being betrayed, and he continues this behavior with others. This gives her the chance to deal with it in a meaningful way. You are doing her a favor - she may be subjected to STD's, not to mention the cheating that continues to this day.
<blockquote>quote:<hr>
It would seem to me, that since she has been suspicious for so long, giving her such a letter would be like pouring salt on her wound. How could I tell her that her "loving" husband really DID betray her??? (And not just with a one-night stand, but a lengthy relationship with me.)
<hr></blockquote>
You aren't the one pouring the salt, he is with his behavior. You are helping her. <blockquote>quote:<hr>
She HAS accused him of infidelity and of course he always had an answer for her. He told her he didn't have time, he's too busy with her and the kids, he loves her too much and was offended that she even thought he would do such a thing.
<hr></blockquote>
There are consequenses to our actions. He will have to face up to them too. Might as well be now. <blockquote>quote:<hr>
I am somewhat acquainted with her, and I wouldn't have the heart to hurt her even more. She seems to have a low self-esteem of herself, usually calling herself "fat, ugly and stupid." How could I rub her nose into the fact that "yes, for whatever reason, it really DID happen"? And how could her knowing possibly help her or their marriage?? (Ok, I know their marriage situation is their problem, not mine, but I'm curious.)
<hr></blockquote>
You can't help her self esteem by keeping it secret. The most important thing is to give it to him. If you can get the courage to give it to his wife also, I think it will be a good thing for her in the long run. You are doing the right thing by realizing it is wrong, and then breaking it off cleanly. Their marriage is indeed their problem so just move on. You have to keep in mind your future is what you have to worry about from here on out.Best wishes[ May 10, 2002: Message edited by: Want2FixIt ]

DJ,I just thought of another reason to send a copy of the letter to the wife. When she finds out about the A on her own, she will be suspicious about whether or not it is continuing. By sending her the letter, she at least has some assurances that you aren't willing to continue it any more. This would help them to get closure on it quicker. As far as the other A's he continues, those may come to a halt also by forcing the issue.

DJ,I won't push you to do something that you don't want to, but I can think of several reasons also to send the letter to his wife.1. When my husband was unfaithful to me, he compromised my safety and health, by exposing me to his promiscuity. I had a right to know that I was in danger and protect myself and my children. What if I had gotten pregnant for instance with an STD that could potentially harm my child...like herpes which can cause blindness....or an STD that caused severe endomitriosis that would render me sterile, god forbid the ones that are worse.2. As a human being, I have a right to choose whether I want to live with a liar and a cheater and have that man as a role model for my children.3. If I want to keep this man in my life, I have a right to peace of mind that his affair(s) are over so we can try to rebuild our marriage and can feel secure in my life and not miserable and suspicious forever.4. If you don't give this letter to his wife, he will possibly never be accountable for his actions, he will never grow, he will never learn to make a true commitment to anyone, or be a true caring human being. He will always think that he can operate outside of the rules.This is just what comes to mind. I'm sure others can think of more. I know you are not a mean vindictive person....in fact you are loving to a fault....which is why he picked you. You are safe. You are selfless. You are loyal. I know you would never seek to hurt him. But you are not responsible for his deeds. And you will not help him as a human being by protecting him. And you will hurt others by protecting him.I know you cannot now ever imagine being able to say that you don't know what you ever saw in him....but I can almost promise you, that you will. And you will not look at losing him as a mistake....but meeting him in the first place, believing his lies, and wasting so much of yourself and your time in pleasing him. I don't expect you to believe me. Right now it is still too raw. That's okay. It is enough that you have been strong so far. But I hope you will consider truly finalizing this separation and begin the search for someone who is truly worthy of your affection and love. My prayers go with you.

Excellent reasons Starfish!

Thanks Fix,Hope DJ hears them.

DjFirst of all I just want to say I'm very proud of you for how you are sticking with things and going through this hard time. You do sound so much better.I wanted to pop in about telling the MM's wife with a letter. I'm not always of the mindset that it's the right thing for the OW to tell the wife, for numerous reasons, but in this situation I think it really may be the right thing to do. Because of OW #4. Your affair being over is one thing, but in the case of a serial cheater, one that is now very possibly involved with someone else (and if that doesn't pan out, likely someone new soon), and I think the justification regarding possible STD's at the very least is a very valid one. Along with other reasons. It may be one thing if it were a one time thing due to any number of factors, a glitch or weak time, or whatever, and with the one affair over the MM may very well return full attention to his wife and marriage, but that isn't the case here. Your stepping out of the picture unfortunately doesn't help this lady too much, since her husband has a pattern of cheating and if not with you we can be pretty sure it will be someone else.Tough as it would be, I think in a case like this especially she really does need to know - once she does what she does with that knowledge is up to her.Just something to think about. I do understand the desire not to cause her any additional pain, I feel the same way in my situation. At least with her already suspecting it's not like this would come totally out of the blue though, not that it wouldn't be very painful. I dunno, with a serial cheater I just think most of the arguements about not telling aren't there. I'm not convinced there's much that can be done to rebuild a marriage that is faithful with that type - although there may be some here that could prove me wrong, and she does deserve to decide for herself with the facts if she can deal with that, and at the very least protect herself against possible STD's.I'm hanging in there too BTW, some days are better than others. Thanks for asking [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Juanita

DJ,I agree with Juanita. I don't always think telling the W is the best option. But Juanita is right.... one of the biggest problems....is the new OW. You can vouch for yourself, and chances are, his wife may have nothing to fear from you in terms of her health....but you can't vouch for this new OW, or for him, because he could have others. You just don't know, and neither does she.I can tell you are kind hearted and want to cause no further harm....but sometimes it is not a choice between causing harm or not....but causing the least harm.Good luck to you. I hope this hasn't made it harder....it's just such a difficult and complex situation. Hope to hear from you soon.

DJ,If sending the letter to the W is causing a hangup for you, don't let it prevent or slow you down from sending the letter to him ok?Hope all is well [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

djmb,
I vote for telling his W. Because it is CRAZY-MAKING to suspect, to know in your gut, to have your H look you in the eyes and LIE, to have him behave like a wounded hero and put the blame onto you for your nasty suspicious mind when he "loves you so much he would never even look at another woman that way." Meanwhile, the BS is trying to reconcile reality, which s/he sees and experiences and "knows" with the falsehood being forced down his/her throat by the WS. My psychiatrist calls that "refined torture." How many years has this poor woman been subjected to this daily emotional abuse and battery?Do you know the term "gaslighting?" It comes from the movie "Gaslight" where a man set out to drive his wife insane by constantly denying and altering reality. He succeeded.This is not a kind, loving man. This is a practised sadist, who is deliberately ripping wounds in his wife and pouring small amounts of acid, not salt, daily into them. By you telling her the truth, you will set her free. She has the right to know that she is NOT crazy, she is not "fat, stupid and ugly." Who, by the way, do you think is subtly feeding her the line that she is "fat, stupid and ugly?"

I remember how I felt when someone told me my then h was rumored to be unnecessarily friendly with a female coworker. It was not a high point in my life - major understatement. I had no idea. I know that it was almost more than I could stand. But it made it make more sense. I can't offer any advice but this brings back some dark moments for me.(It was not his first EA and he readily admitted to them. Even confessed.)

Oh, one more thing, whether you tell the w or not, lose this jerk this weekend. Waiting won't make it easier. And then get an unlisted telephone number or block his telephone number. And change the cell phone number.

I really think his wife needs to know. This guy is using her big time and probably doesn't deserve to be with ANYBODY. If I were her, I'd feel so foolish knowing how many women he'd been with while married to her. Maybe it'll give him the wakeup call he needs?

I don't know of any wives who wouldn't want to know. Most people don't want to be left in the dark whether the info is painful or not.

Hi dj,How are you? I wanted to say I agree with Want2Fixit, sending, or considering sending, a letter to MM's wife maybe should wait until you are stronger and on a more even keel. If considering it now seems overwhelming, wait a bit to think it over. It's most important that you continue the no contact, and continue to get stronger and emotionally seperate and sometimes when we are already shaky that one more thing can put us on overload and either cause a crash, or cause us to be immobilized. If it seems too much to consider, you can always do it later when you are stronger. It may be also that she would confront you, or want to ask you questions, and you may not be strong enough to deal with that right now.It's definately a valid point worth serious consideration, but not now if it causes too much stress and pressure. hang in there dj, you have a lot of cheerleaders here.Juanita

Send his wife a big picture of you kissing her husband. Don't write a message, just send it. Then she would realize the truth about her "true-blue loving husband!"

dj, where are you? How are you? Please check in.

DJ,How are you doing? What are your current thoughts on the letter? Hows the No contact going? Sure would like to hear from you.Best Wishes

Hi DJ,Someone else here just making sure you are doing okay ! And you will do okay, I hear it in your voice with each post here.As for a letter to the W, I agree with you about it being painful. I waited a month or so of no contact then wrote an apology letter to her.It helped with my healing and kept me accountable on those days I just wanted him back.It has been over 4 months of no contact, and HONESTLY, every day I feel better.Mind you, the gym, better eating habits, better sleeping habits are all helping me feel better.Working on just "you" really is worth it.
Yeah.....I read lots of books, shed lots of tears, buried myself in work....... but it all helped keep me away from him.
The letter to MM was the first time he thought I was serious about not seeing him. It was not lovey-dovey, but it was kind. I did love him, and I know he loved me.But I deserved better, and I deserved more than he could give me.The hardest thing was trying to figure out what to do with the time I always spent with him.Meeting new people helped , so the gym took care of alot of my needs.I called friends I had not seen in awhile and invited them to lunch.I planned a coffee date for each of my days off, just to get me out.I parked my car in different places at work, as he always left me notes under my wipers.I was helping him by keeping the temptation away. I avoided places he would be. I specified in my letter if he ever loved me he would honour my wishes of no contact and avoid my work and my home.And he has.
Be kind, be firm and love yourself.It feels pretty good !
PS- that was one of those "been there done that" lectures!!
Take care, Mary

Hi DJ,I'm concerned and would really like to hear how things are going for you. Please drop us a line! Many are here to help you throught this.Best Wishes

Hello to all of my friends who are helping me through this trying time. Thank you for your concern and encouraging words!! I hope everyone is doing well.Things are going ok. The no contact is still in effect (at least from my end). I have not answered any of his messages. Our paths did cross one day on the street; he gave me his usual big smile, beep and a wave. As I expected, the phone range soon after, but again I did not answer.It surprises me the way my feelings have changed. That change must be part of my growing stronger. I will never reach the point of not loving him. (Yes, I'll always love that sweet, caring guy he appeared to be.) It is hard to explain my feelings now. The thought of him with OW disgusts me. While my love for him is still there, now there is a numbness as well (if that makes any sense at all).I am firm in my decision to have no contact. I know that resisting his calls and emails is making me even stronger. Today is one of those downer days...and I miss him tremendously, but don't want to see or talk to him. Sometimes I wish it was possible to go back and re-do the past 2+ years. I did value his friendship and the many things we had in common. I wouldn't have let it become physical, I'd just keep it as friends with nothing more. But there is no going back...only moving forward.I'm sorry, but I haven't given him the letter yet. I'm not sure I want his wife to read it, so I thought about leaving it under the wiper of his car while he's at work. Think that would be ok???I DO agree with everyone as to why his wife should know. If I were in her situation, I would want to know, no matter how painful it would be. She does deserve the apology letter from me, and I will try to draft one soon. Even though it will not change what has happened, I will feel better having her know that I'm truly sorry for what I've done.Juanita and MaryRN, it looks like some of your strength and willpower in having "been there done that" (no contact) has finally rubbed off on me! Bad days like today will happen, but we cope. And, I guess each one of these bad days make us stronger in the long run.Juststartingover, I had seen the movie "Gaslight" years ago. It is scary to think that a person could be so vicious to try to deceive reality for their own benefit; it is even scarier to think a spouse could do it.And, Want2FixIt, I like your signature line....looking at my situation, I think my test was whether or not to become involved with MM....the lesson I learned was that I shouldn't have fallen in love. In my case, I failed the test and learned a very painful lesson in the process!! Thanks again everyone! I'll keep you posted.

Hi DJ,I'm glad to see you are staying strong. Even your weak moments are stronger than you used to be so that is major progress! As far as the letter, I think leaving it on his car should work fine, but you have to be absolutely sure he gets it because you can't be left wondering if he really got it or not. Can you mail it to his work registered mail and have him sign for it?Stay strong and keep posting! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

DJI have to tell you as the BS of a man who did to me EXACTLY what he did with you (no others...just the one), telling her would help her tremendously.You don't have any idea what it's like to be on the receiving end of knowing you are not crazy, but unable to prove it. To hear your H say he's tired of having to answer for something he's not doing...and that being accused of it makes him feel like all the love he has for you means nothing to you. To hear him say that your paranoid delusions make it hard to stay loving toward you...you get the pointThen to have proof...to KNOW you aren't crazy. It's the greatest destroyer of life and the the greatest giver of relief...On the one hand you now know you are NOT crazy...on the other hand life as you know it will NEVER be the same, not ever, not with anyone. Although you will never give of yourself in the same way again you can begin to sort out and find all the pieces of your life.For her? It hasn't even begun...she's still wrestling with her own belief system...and he's destroying her little by little.Does this help you to know what you have helped to do, and why it may be so important to offer her the life jacket?It's not going to be pretty and she's not going to care for you much at first..but she will also remember you were the one who came forward and tried to help. Don't end it with telling her either...offer her in any way she will let you to make it up to her as a human being...she may not take your help...but at least you can let her know you want to make amends.I hope this taught you a lot about yourselfHeide

Hi DJ, cyberhug and support vibes for your continuing strength and growth.Remember I mentioned "Gaslight" and you said you'd seen the movie? Heide describes only too well what it's like. My ex-H was like this with both his drinking and his infidelity. He'd look me in the eye and swear he hadn't been drinking - when he came home stinking of booze at 5am. Or insist that he'd only had TWO beers because he was thirsty and it wasn't really 5am anyway, he'd been home for hours and I'd just slept through his arrival.... He'd deny outright that he had said or done something, in the teeth of the evidence or the presence of witnesses. When a woman phoned our unlisted number, asked for him by his nickname, was horrified when I said I was his wife and said "That can't be! MY .... isn't married!" he first accused me of lying when I told him about the call. When the kids backed me up that it had occurred and my side of the conversation, he said it was a wrong number. When I said she called you ..... he started screaming and accusing me of being crazy, neurotic, hysterical, driving him to drink, killing his love for me... just as Heide describes. If this is not Gaslighting, what is it? Strange how my ex-H also used to go on about me being fat when he was being offensive to be defensive; seems to be par for the course! I'm 5'6" tall and at that time I weighed 110lb. Not anywhere near obese, right?MM is most definitely gaslighting his W. She has a right to daylight, to know that she is NOT crazy, stupid or fat. Especially seeing you are one in a series. what a nasty nasty situation, and I am truly sorry you are caught up in it.

I haven't posted anything on this thread yet because everyone is already saying what I wanted to say, but I've been watching closely.Wake up DJ!!!!!!!!!!!!
It has been a month and a half since your first post. Why have you not severed this guy off? It's so tiring to keep hearing about how much you still love him (or at least what he wanted you to be in love with). You even said once that he's the only "man" (I don't think he knows the meaning) that you even considered having children with!! I would normally consider you completely nuts, but I don't because you recognize that that would never happen (even if he wasn't fixed). He would never let something like that happen!! Then he would be committed to you!!! He's a control freak---I nut job!!!I totally agree with AGG on just about everything he's said to you previously. You have to realize that you HAVE to take some action in your life. And I won't even get started on you trying to help him with his wife's b-day!!!! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] Write the letter to him and then tell his wife. They both deserve it. Take your life back!!!Carpe diem

I would not be happy if you were making love to MY husband. NO WAY NO HOW! But I would want to know who is having sex with MY lawful husband. Please send a nice little note to the wife telling of all her husbands infidelities with you and how many years you and he have been having sex. It is the least you can do! Even if you continue the affair, which I don't care if you do, since you are only making yourself more miserable, you could notify the wife, maybe she will leave him and then he will have only you TWO woman to make love with instead of three. In fact, notify the other lover also of the other man making love with you! Maybe you can get rid of both the women and have him (in all his evil glory) for yourself.[ May 19, 2002: Message edited by: baba2 ]

With his track record, it seems to me that YOU should also be concerned about stds. I can't imagine being with someone who's had that many other women. Think of yourself, think of the wife (let her know) and stop thinking about him. He's certainly not worth it.

Hello everyone! I'm still around. I haven't had a chance to post much lately, I've been busy. Things are going well....here's an update.The other night I was expecting a business call and when the phone rang, I answered. (I don't have caller ID.) Well, guess who?? It was HIM. We talked a while and everything went well. Nothing personal was discussed; we just talked about work, hockey, baseball and other things we have in common. I had NO urge to see him or desire to be with him. (He didn't even ask if we could get together, so maybe he realizes that I don't want to be with him in that way any longer...or maybe he doesn't want to be with me.) The talk left me with a good feeling...I didn't cry, didn't feel hurt...and especially...I DIDN'T want to be with him! My feelings towards him have changed so much, that I know I won't weaken. Talking to him was just like talking to any other male friend, co-worker or a brother.But now I'm a bit confused: Would it be possible to just stay friends with this guy (as long as now my feelings have changed)? Or, do I need to still send the letter and end it completely?? (Want2FixIt, sending the letter registered mail at his work is a great idea and that is the route I would take with it.) But, I think it is the whole idea of "closure" that scares me. It is so final and would almost seem like a death. But that's the whole idea, right? It is supposed to be over.We do have so much in common and get along great. He always said that we'd remain friends no matter what happened. I hate to lose the friendship too. But it is possible to keep that friendship?? Can anyone ever be just friends, after "crossing the line" into more?? Or does that kill the friendship, as well?? I would have no problem keeping it as friends. Maybe he has reached that point also. But, on the other hand, I ask myself if he is even worthy of friendship....after causing so much pain to so many people and being so selfish. Yes, I'm confused.Heide and Juststartingover, I am sorry that you've both endured such painful experiences. Thank you for sharing them. I can't imagine how it would feel to be in that position. I hope things are getting better for both of you and wish you both well.Again, thank you everyone for your insight!

Uh..did you read anything about affairs on this site before posting here? If so then you know full well you cannot be friends with this man, he's not your friend, he's the man you had an affair with. Are you really this thick or don't you get it? God, write his poor wife anon about her scumbag H so maybe she'll only have to deal with some minor STDs and a broken heart instead of coming down with HIV from her H rutting like some wild pig. Stop protecting him if you have any sense of right and wrong. Geez louise, woman, don't you get it. Stay away from him and get some self esteem, why the hell do you want to be anyone's seconds? And sorry, but that's all you were to him, after all he replaced you quickly enough, huh?

DJ, you already know it won't work. It's hard, isn't it, to give up this addiction? You know about love banks, you know that if you let him make deposits it won't be long before you will be back in the same place you have worked so hard to get out of. We all love you and want you to be happy. You weren't happy when you first came here. My suggestion is to just hang up. If he calls and you hear his voice, just hang up and put the phone down. You already know what he wants. You can find someone that will be YOURS ALONE.
I recommend you let him go and start looking. SS

DJ,I'm not sure you really understand the concept of no contact. No contact actually means NO contact. If the phone rings and it is him, you immediately hang up. Yes, it is essential to write the letter, and I would still urge to to inform his wife...though I doubt you will.I am happy you have remained strong, but listen to the others....ANY contact deposits into his bank...you will fail to end this affair if you don't enforce a true No contact policy. Yes you have things in common. Yes you have the basis for a friendship....those are precisely the reasons that this will explode in your face if you cannot remain out of his reach. Dj...you know this. I know in your heart you these things I am saying to you are true. Do me a huge favor. Go back to the beginning of this thread and read through it all again. Watch the change in you, reread the advice you have gotten...there is a wealth of good advice that the people here have spent the time and energy to write. Please me stronger than this. You are almost free.

djmusicbox,
It sounds to me like you've gotten over some of the harder things, and have gone back to struggling with some of the basics <blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by djmusicbox:
Nothing personal was discussed; we just talked about work, hockey, baseball and other things we have in common. But now I'm a bit confused: Would it be possible to just stay friends with this guy
<hr></blockquote>Talking about work, hockey, baseball, and other things you have in common is how you deposit love units - this is a facet of companionship, and you can chit-chat on the phone and re-ignite romantic feelings in a little while. What you perceive yourselves to have in common are the things that will help you to re-strengthen your emotional bond - it's one of the things that's recommended for married couples to doYes, I believe it would be possible to "just stay friends with the guy".... but with astrononically fantastically amazingly huge risks that one whiff of the right cologne and you're off to the races again.It's been a few hundred posts since the last time I spoke into this thread, but here's a little thing to consider: "Friends" with a dark secret to conceal have a particularly special sort of connection that could transcend any regular friendship already. . . Wholesome sorts of friends you may conceivably be AFTER you let his wife in on the peril that she is un-knowingly undertaking by being in a non-monogamous relationship.Of course the idea of closure with its finality is scary - seems like a "death" because it shuts the door on a relationship that did in fact give you a great deal of exhiliration and comfort. But you're whittling the tail off your own dog just a snip at a time, and as much as it is true that you are doing well in that your passions are settling, I'll bet a good, honest look inside your own heart (as only YOU can do) will reveal to you that you are still just a bit "in love" with this man.
...and THAT is why everyone else here insists "no contact" and that you can't be friends. "I" on the other hand disagree - I believe you can conceivably be "just friends" (not while you're hiding something from his wife, though) but even so... whereas I do believe it, I'm figuring the odds at around 10,000,000 to 1 that you can't pull it off (which with odds like that, it's no wonder everyone else thinks, "no contact".... if you're going to try it, I'm going to be quiet about my theory that you can do it and go stand with them so that when you have another full-fledged fling with this guy I can jump in with them and act like I was saying "no contact", too)Yes, though... yes you can be "just friends" with this man, but certainly not in any good sense while you and he are conspiring against his wife, even matters of the past....be done with itSince I was figuring odds, here's another one - a hundred to one that if you wrap this thing up, in a couple of months you'll be happier than you ever have been in a long time, for though you may be "lonely" for a temporary season, you'll not be carrying the burden of indecisiveness that's connected to an unpromising relationship that can not be permanent (at least not without a TON of baggage) to begin with.

DJ,Don't fool yourself into thinking you can be "just friends". Even though you say you don't want to be with him now, I think you might not understand completely what got you into trouble in the first place. Having good friendly conversations is probably what helped build up your Love for him. This is precisely why you need to have NO CONTACT. By conversing, you are inviting your love to grow. You may think you have your feelings under control now, but you cannot predict your future feelings given he is a very SMOOTH OPERATOR. He is using his vast experience of seducing women on you yet again, and you just go with it. Don't let him get away with this. You and he continue to inflict pain upon his family and you think it might be ok? Just because they don't know all the facts doesn't mean damage isn't being done. Innocent conversation is time that he isn't spending with them ok?Write the no contact letter. I am also a BS, and so I understand the pain that these EA/PA can inflict on a family. My life is totally disrupted by my W's A right now. I don't deserve it, and neither does his W. Do the right thing![ May 23, 2002: Message edited by: Want2FixIt ]

DJ - can you tell us which part of "NO CONTACT" is unclear?Send the letter then block his calls or change your number. Then tell him that, if he contacts you again, you will tell his wife.

dj dj djThis man was willing to destroy his wife...destroy you if he could manage it and add a third woman to the destroying frenzy...And this is your "friend"? At what point do you reclaim your OWN dignity? since you have no intetions of helping his wife reclaim her dignity...and you don't seem to remember or notice about the Other Other Woman...What about you? Who taught you it was ok to be treated this way and still call him a friend?Sorry to be harsh..but those are the facts..sound silly enough yet?Heide

Does he have any personal things at your house?Maybe you should pack them and send them to his wife. No note, just his things.

ooooo cinderella? LIKE THAT ONE!! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

The difference between a friend and a lightbulb is that you can unscr*w a lightbulb.

cinderella,I think sending the things without a note is something an OW would do to break up their M, not save it. So I think a note is in order to give the W the information she needs to make her own decision. Certainly what you suggested would shake things up but I'm not sure its the right thing to do.So I would say if you are going to send personal things, send an apology letter with it letting her know it is over and NO CONTACT is in place. Remember this isn't about hurting him, its about what's best for his W and for getting DJ out of this mess.

<blockquote>quote:<hr>Originally posted by Want2FixIt:So I would say if you are going to send personal things, send an apology letter with it letting her know it is over and NO CONTACT is in place. Remember this isn't about hurting him, its about what's best for his W and for getting DJ out of this mess.[/QB]<hr></blockquote>
While that is the goal...she's not willing to do it the way we all know it should be done...Some people see confrontation on the same scale of fear factor as eating a hundred year old egg...some people can't muster it...and either we have tolerance for it or we call them weak and pathetic...whatver happens to the wife in this situation....she's not willing to directly confront her..so any bit of hope that she be notified somehow is better than none...JMHO
Heide

<blockquote>quote:<hr>
While that is the goal...she's not willing to do it the way we all know it should be done...Some people see confrontation on the same scale of fear factor as eating a hundred year old egg...some people can't muster it...and either we have tolerance for it or we call them weak and pathetic...whatver happens to the wife in this situation....she's not willing to directly confront her..so any bit of hope that she be notified somehow is better than none...
<hr></blockquote>
I think we all wished she had sent the letter yesterday. But I doubt you are a predictor of future human behavior. I am hopeful that she will get the courage to do the right thing even if it isn't in "our time". It seems you have aimed at a lower outcome and have written off that she will ever send the W a letter. The letter to him is the most important thing, then the letter to the W in my opinion.Read your sig line again and start aiming a bit higher.

Ok, I guess I've got to plead temporary insanity on the idea of being friends with MM!!!!!But first, a big thank you to Want2FixIt, for understanding how difficult this is for me and not giving up on me. In reading the some of the posts from Juanita and MaryRN, they said they also had tried numerous times to end their relationship. Yes, it does take time. It is not an easy thing to do. Now, the latest:When I got home from work yesterday, I found a surprise....it was one of his sweet little "thinking of you because I know it would make you smile" messages on my recorder.And yes, it made me smile....but THEN it made me realize...those are exactly the type of little surprises he was so good at that deposited HUGE tokens in my love bank....he knew just what to do...almost everything he said or did added another deposit...and yes, at one time that love bank was overflowing!!!!!Later, I found an email which said that there has NEVER been any intimacy with the OOW (and he wasn't sure if there ever would be), so I shouldn't wonder about them, as nothing has happened. (I still want to believe so strongly that he is honest with me, but his track record says otherwise.)All of you are so right....being friends with him would fill that love bank very quickly (even if I wouldn't want it to). With everyone's support and encouragement, I've gathered so much strength to resist him that I know a simple friendship is impossible. This whole mess began with friendship and those seemingly "innocent" conversations we had.I will do the right thing. I will send the letter (to him). (He is going to be off work for a week, so it won't be that soon.) Although the idea of closure is scary, I see it is the only way to break free from this. I wish it could help him and his wife, as well, but in their case, I think there will ALWAYS be an OW in the picture. Cinderella, he doesn't have any belongings at my house. Although I like your idea of sending them to his wife, I have to agree with Want2FixIt that I'd send an apology note along with it. I definitely have alot to apologize for.I appreciate everyone's continued help and wish all of you well. I'll keep in touch!

Hi DJ,I know it is a long painful process to fully let go of MM. I still long for him to be back on my couch, or dropping me off coffee at work.I gave in so many times and each time felt sick.I was supposed to adore this man and I felt sick?
Funny story ....... I was washing my car last week and needed to scrub the aluminum rims on my car. I found his toothbrush that I just could not throw out and boy, did those rims shine!! I think I am healing !
You are getting there, I can hear it.It does take time.It is almost 5 months of no contact for me. I still have not laid eyes on him, so that will be the true test of my will power. But I do feel in control of my emotions now. That and the fact, I gained 12 lbs of muscle at the gym, grew my hair long, got a "water bra"..... Life is good Sister and I look great!!! That is the best revenge. Not that I am a vengeful person [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]
You are doing ok, and yes, life does go on.Be strong ....... Mary

dj,I'm glad to see you are coming to your senses! Be strong and keep up the fight!I will certainly be pleased when you have finally sent the letter, and you will be like Mary, here in recovery helping others with this difficult kind of addiction, and preparing for a new life of a healthy relationship with someone who isn't married
[img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Great stuff, DJ! It's good to see you moving toward the light.I know this is hard for you; you have so much to give and you don't see the manipulation. I read how he left you a "cute" little voicemail: "just to let you know I'm thinking about you BECAUSE I KNOW IT'LL MAKE YOU SMILE". See the mindgames here? If he was genuinely just thinking of you, why cue you in to your expected response? He's telling you outright he expects you to be thrilled and grateful because he tells you he's thinking of you. He's playing the game known as "stringing her along while I get my own way." Just as he does to his wife. And the email? Sweetie, this is gaslighting YOU now. You SAW him with #4 in the same make-out spot he used with you, he told you she's sending him signals and he won't refuse, he told you the same lie that he said he'd prepared for his wife if she ever saw you and him together (we're just professional associates), he hasn't been around for sex so he's getting it somewhere else... he's denying your reality and trying to suck you into his murky world of deceit and evasion. Write the letter and move out of the fogbelt. For your sake, for your emotional health.

Hello to all! Thank you for your replies! Mary, I loved the story about the toothbrush on those rims!! That must be a sure sign of healing! It sounds like you are doing a great job of handling the pain of your situation. It's time I find a "new me" too....I hope I can. I wish you continued success!!Juststartingover, yes, he played mindgames, and was so good at it; had lots of practice. The gaslighting too...deep in my heart, I still want to believe he was honest with me, but I know better. I wonder if he has ever been honest with anyone, even himself? Maybe my feelings are still so deep for him, that I just can't believe he would do that to me, although I know he did.Well, Want2FixIt, I WILL definitely send the letter when he gets back to work (and I won't weaken on that). Some days I think I'm doing so good with all this, but, then a bad day comes along. I'm just on a bad guilt trip today. I wonder if there really is a new life out there for me after all this, or if I even deserve one. I question again how and why I could have gotten myself into this ugly situation and cause pain to his wife and kids, especially when the vow of marriage means so much to me. I guess I just need to vent, so here I am.Hope everyone hangs in there too and has a good holiday weekend!

"I guess I just need to vent, so here I am."
--djmb
I hope that is not the case, djmb, I really hope it is not. I would like to believe you sincerely came to this forum seeking help to unravel yourself from a destructive affair -- & not just to vent the multitude of pros & cons & pros & cons of being entangled with a MM.I have been reading at MB for only a very short time (but I have read volumes for sure!), & this is my first post. Of the thousands of threads, why would I choose for my first post to occur on "this" thread? Well, because like many other members who have followed the progression here, I am hoping to soon celebrate your new life "on the other side of Fogville." Your journey into & through Fogville has been long, but you seem to be standing now at the outskirts of town, & with just a few more steps you will feel the brilliance of "Sun City" flooding you with its light & warmth. Please do take those steps, djmb. Send the letter. Send both letters. Send them now, before another night comes & goes. You say MM is off work for a week & you want to wait until after that? Why? Many reasons cross my mind -- one of which is you might desire waiting to see if MM tires of OW4 & then things can either settle back down into the way they were before or perhaps move on along as "just friends." I am probably not the only reader who has mentally tumbled the perception that you may have originally posted here only because you were outraged & in a panic about OW4's entry into the picture. I am probably also not the only reader who is praying you will upend that perception by rising to the occasion & doing the right thing.Free yourself. Free the betrayed wife & the betrayed children. Free the serial cheater from the opportunity to ever again involve you in his web of deceit. Walk fully into that light.MM's week off from work is the prime time to do this, djmb. One whole week for he & his wife to explore truth in their marriage for the first time in over 2 years? One whole week in which he won't be distracted by work, & can therefore address his breach of commitment & how that is to be handled from this point onward? (Imagine for a moment, if you will, the impact which your letters will present, & imagine just how much time & attention will be required in the first days in order to sort through & absorb such an impact.) I'd say if you love him, a week of "coping space" would be a truly generous gift for you to give to him & to his wife who deserves to know the truth of her own life.Only question is: are you that generous? Godspeed you peace (the sooner the better), & a hug from --~bliss~[ May 25, 2002: Message edited by: blissfulorbust ]

<blockquote>quote:<hr>djMusicBox: Well, Want2FixIt, I WILL definitely send the letter when he gets back to work (and I won't weaken on that).
<hr></blockquote>That's the kind of determination you need! You have come so far, stay strong, get the letter written now and post it here. Even if you wait to send it till after he returns to work, you can certainly post it to get feedback. You can go with the one I offered of course.I await the news of the letter being sent, and remember registered mail! When you get the return receipt, then you can rest your mind knowing he got it. Try not to look too far ahead. Most programs to help addicts that I know of teach one day at a time. That you say today I will be strong and live up to no contact. That way it doesn't overwelm you. Everyone can do one day. You just add days into years, and soon it becomes the past. Without him contacting you, those days are even easier.Pick a date certain you WILL send it and post that date here. I will hold you to it ok? Exercise your determination.

Hi Dj,It's been a few days since we have heard from you and just wanted to let you know I was thinking of you. Hope all is well with the No Contact. Have you written the letter yet? I wasn't sure of the date you were planning on sending it.Best Wishes

Hi everyone!Want2FixIt, thank you for keeping in touch and thinking about me. I am doing ok. The No Contact is still in effect. I've gotten a few phone messages, and emails, but haven't spoken to him. Yes, that determination to do the right thing is still there (and your encouragement helps alot). Some days I miss him a bunch, but I am taking it one day at a time and am not temped to weaken. I would like to use the letter you suggested, since it is short and to the point. (And thanks for letting me!) It seems that whenever I start to write one, I ramble and say more than necessary. As for the date I'll send it (registered mail), how about June 5? (I know you'll hold me to it, right?) I may do an apology letter to his wife down the road, but I'm not quite ready at this point. Sending him the letter won't be easy to do, but I know I have to do it. To Blissfulorbust: thank you for your reply. No, I didn't join the forum just to vent. I joined to seek help in getting out of my situation, and with all of the great people here, I found that help. I am making progress, slow but sure. I'm sure a letter to his wife would have a huge impact. I just can't be that cruel to actually rub her nose into the fact that "yes, your husband and I really were more than friends," and "yes, your suspicions were right." I hope someday another OW of his can do it, I just can't. I do understand the point that so many have made that she needs to know and would want to know. It might even help their marriage. But, I've done enough to her; I could never forgive myself for telling her something like that, too. An apology letter would be easier and more appropriate, as I feel I do need to apologize for so many things. I may do one down the road, but first I'll concentrate on the letter to him.Thanks again!

Hi dj,I'm glad to see your determination! I kind of suspected that if you tried to write a letter it would be difficult because it would be hard for you to be as direct as I was. One of the rules of the letter is that it can't provide any hope that the relationship will restart. It must be clear you are determined. I suspect that is the part that makes it hard for you to write it yourself is you normally write from the heart, and your heart right now is in a mixed up state. I know you can do it!Ok So JUNE 5 is written on my computer now and I WILL hold you to it! One day at a time is all you need to get through this. [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

Hi Want2FixIt,Well, you were right on target about me trying to write that letter! I guess writing from the heart is the problem....especially in this case, when that heart is so VERY mixed up!! [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] I don't even think I make sense sometimes!!Oh, I'm stubborn and determined to send that letter. One thing bothers me that maybe you can shed some light on: I'm afraid the rejection I'll be giving him might hurt him. I know he'll be surprised, and I'm not sure how he'll react. So why should his feelings concern me?? Maybe I should WANT to hurt him after finally realizing what kind of person he is, but I don't. Maybe he even DESERVES to be hurt, but I don't want to do it. I guess those feelings are part of my confusion, too. I'll always care about him and never want to hurt him, but yet I know I need to for this whole mess to end (for everyone's benefit). Does that make any sense at all?? And why do I even feel this way?? Is it wrong to feel this way??I don't want you to think I'm weakening....I'm NOT. Maybe its just that sometimes the best thing to do causes pain. I don't like to cause pain. But, like you said earlier...one day at a time is what it takes. I'm ready and determined! Thanks for your continued support and help. I do appreciate it!

Geeze Louise I can't believe that this thread is still going. I assumed that this much time later DJ would be gone and it would be an OW slam fest. Glad to see that that is not the case.DJ-a word of encouragement. I've done what you're doing. I came here to MB all mixed up and confused. Still in love with him and angry. I didn't get the "wife" side of things and wasn't sure that I wanted to.In time I became convenced that sending her a confession letter was the best thing to do. And being the impulsive person that I am-I did it. I talked to a few BS's here on MB and privately though e-mail. I came home one day, sat down, composed my thoughts and mailed it THAT day.Before I had a change to anaylse it, over think it or change my mind - poof it was gone into the post box.So 5 months later here's the view:
I have been able to maintain NC from that day to this. I'm glad that I was finally really honest about us and the past and a bunch of other stuff. I have NO idea what happened in his marriage - it's not my business. However, since our social circles to rub against one another from time to time I hear drips and drabs. I think she left. And I believe that she left him with the 2 youngest children. Everyone around us has adopted the "dont ask don't tell" theory.Regrets: I now regret the timing. I regret that I sent the letter 2 weeks before Christmas. That was not on purpose. I regret that she and I never spoke about what I wrote, but that was her choice. I regret that I didn't include the words "i'm sorry" in the letter, but they would have been insincere.You know what's funny. Right after I sent the letter I felt really proud of myself . It was my first major step away from him. ( it was a 9.5 year affair) Then a few days later it felt like a hot poker in the heart. I wanted to curl up and die. It felt like I had enacted the ultimate betrayal. I felt like he hated me and that felt like death. And in a way it was. It was the death of my time in triangulated relationships and that particular form of dysfunction.Today I am in a new relationship. One where I an #1 and not #5. What an amazing difference. Before I was not ready to be #1 and now I am. My current relationship is not perfect. There is NO much for us to work though. The big change is that we're committed to working thorough it together. I have no idea if we'll make it. I don't even know if it's best that we make it. Either way, loving this person in this way, at this time has given me wings.Good luck to you and God Bless.Katie Scarlett

<blockquote>quote:<hr>One thing bothers me that maybe you can shed some light on: I'm afraid the rejection I'll be giving him might hurt him. I know he'll be surprised, and I'm not sure how he'll react. So why should his feelings concern me?? Maybe I should WANT to hurt him after finally realizing what kind of person he is, but I don't. Maybe he even DESERVES to be hurt, but I don't want to do it. I guess those feelings are part of my confusion, too. <hr></blockquote>You need to focus on yourself, and not worry about him. I know this may be difficult, but how he reacts or feels isn't your responsibility. Any misery he may have by you enforcing the NO contact and making it official with a letter is misery he has brought upon himself. HE chose to pursue all the OW including you and so he must bear the responsibility of any pain he has inflicted on himself or his family. You are releasing yourself from this responsibility by going with no contact.I wouldn't look at it as "WANTING" to hurt him or what he "DESERVES" since this isn't about punishment at all. It's about doing what is RIGHT. He might just learn a valuable life lesson taught by you in this case. You can feel good about that. When I look back at teachers I've had, the ones that I remember and appreciate the most are the ones that were tough, because usually I learned the most from them. You can have this comfort that when he finally wakes up and realizes the errors of his ways, he will remember it was you that taught him this lesson.Hope this helps you sort out your conflicted feelings.Best Wishes

Katie, thanks for your reply! It is always encouraging to hear from someone who has been successful in ending a similar relationship. With the help of so many wonderful people on this board, I have gotten the strength to send the No Contact letter to him, but am still not quite ready for the apology letter to his wife. Unlike you, I do feel the need to say "I'm sorry" to her for the problems I know I've caused in her life (and marriage) the past 2+ years.I think I'll feel proud of myself too, after I send the letter. I've already been dealing with the feelings of betrayal, loss and "hot poker in the heart". I expect them to become worse after I send the letter. But, I know I will feel good about sending it.Good luck on your new relationship and on getting those "wings". It must be a good feeling to know that you've come so far.Want2FixIt, you always seem to put everything into perspective for me, and that helps so much in getting through all this. From your insight, I can now see that the letter isn't about punishing him at all. It is about making the right decision for so many right reasons (and I'd say his family is reason #1). I can see that I need to focus on me, for a change, instead of on him. But, I'm always used to focusing on someone else, so that is hard for me to do. I can also see that HE had gotten himself into all this, so his feelings are his responsibility, not mine.While we don't realize it while we're in class, those tough teachers really were the best ones!Thanks so much for all this help!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

DJ it's almost June 5th...is the letter written yet? Keep us updated. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Hi DJJust wanted to let you know that I'm still checking on you [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I am proud of you for continuing the no contact, I know it's been hard for you but you have progressed so far.I'm glad too that you are planning to send a no contact letter, but don't be surprised if he takes that as a signal to put more focus and effort into getting you back on his string. Right now he thinks HE is the one making the space between you, while he is off pursuing other things, under the impression that you remain safely under his spell. Once he realizes he may be losing you as one of his safety nets to take back up if/when he feels like it, he may very well pull out the charm and attention, and all the right words, to get you back on that string. DON'T fall for it, and don't forget he dumped you for other things, and other women when it was convenient. You may be called on to be much stronger - don't pick up the phone, screen your calls with caller ID or an answering machine (I picked up a really cheap one - for $10 at a discount store), if you haven't already done so block his email address.I understand what you mean about not wanting to hurt his feelings, I do, because you are a kind and kindhearted person. But first of all us softies often are TOO nice, and kindhearted to those who will use and take advantage. This type of man will not be hurt by your breaking things off with him, and the others are right, even if he is (which I HIGHLY doubt), he is responsible for his hurt because he got himself in that situation - just as you see that you are responsible for the hurt this has brought on you. He may feel "how dare she, who does she think she is, dumping ME when I still want her on the string", arrogance, selfishness, pride, but I doubt very much he will be hurt - although he won't be afraid to tell you he is hurt, to manipulate you.Hang in there DJ, keep up the no contact, you are doing so well. Juanita

Hi DJ,Hope you are doing well. I have marked down that today's the day so be strong and follow through with sending the letter ok? I know you can do it, and there are many here pulling for you, and wishing you well. I look forward to hearing from you. Keep it up! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Hi DJ,
I also noted today's date on the calendar so I could check on you. I hope you decided to put DJ first in all this. And I know it is hard to hurt MM with the letter, but he continually hurts you, day after day. Your letter can be kind, just not with any hope of it starting up again. When I wrote mine, it was like a legal document of sorts ( in my mind), so it helped me put me first. I am a nurse, a mother, a daughter to aging parents.... everyones needs are being looked after by me. So when MM swooped into my life, I was more than ready for a little attention. And we all like a little attention. But I had to put myself first in my own mind, not in someone elses. I have discovered so much about my
self in the last 5 months of no contact, a self that I kinda like and respect. You probably do not see that happening with your self, but neither did I. I am happy, I miss him ( or what he did for me ) but I refuse to ever go there again.I do deserve an honest relationship with a man worthy of me.One who doesn't sneak around to see me, or checks his watch when he is with me so he can be home on time.You and I deserve a whole lot better, don't we ?
This will be a tough day for you, but the weight will be lifted from you shoulders soon. Make some happy plans with friends for the next few days so you have something to look forward to.Be strong.......... I know you are !
Mary

Dj,Did you send the letter? Don't delay it, stay strong and stick with your plan ok? Would like to hear from you...

Hi! I haven't got alot of time right now, but wanted to give everyone a quick update. Juanita and MaryRN, it was so good to hear from you again. I'll reply to your comments soon.Well, the letter has been sent (to his work address)! Funny, because after sending it I found a phone message from him. He told me that he injured his hand and will be off work for 1 week...(coincidence?). So, I don't know if someone will call him to tell him it arrived, if he'll receive it when he gets back to work, or if he'll receive it at all!!! Just my luck! Anyway, it has been sent, so I've made progress. If necessary, I'll send it again when he's back to work! My time is up for now, but I'll post again soon. Thank you everyone....I'm still hanging in there!!! Your support and encouragement helps so much and I do appreciate it!

dj,Great! You have come a long way and I'm proud of you [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] I know it doesn't hurt be told again, you are doing the RIGHT thing. Don't ever lose focus of that.The coincidence does seem a bit odd on the hurting his hand thing. Is it possible the letter had already arrived when you got the call? Because it does seem like a clever ploy to buy himself some time so he can play dumb and try to reach out to you. If you mailed it yesterday, my guess is it would have been in his office the next day for in city delivery. Anyway, don't fall for it and stay determined. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Yeah DJ!!! Yeah DJ!!! Yeah DJ!!! Yeah DJ!!! Yeah DJ!!! Yeah DJ!!! Yeah DJ!!! Yeah DJ!!! Yeah DJ!!! Yeah DJ!!! Yeah DJ!!! Yeah DJ!!! Yeah DJ!!!Just had to show up to support you for this one! You did good!!!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Hello everyone!Just a quick little (somewhat shocking!) update....His wife's 40th surprise birthday party is tomorrow. Can anyone believe that he left me a message that I'm invited??? He also said he was planning to tell his wife during the party that I helped organize and plan the whole event for her. I can't believe this!!! How could he possibly invite me, when he knows that I am her most hated person (and rightfully so) in the world!! (And he said numerous times that she isn't dealing with turning 40 very well...she is depressed and in a mood...then he thinks I should appear at HER party??) What is he trying to do to her?? Where is he coming from on this one?? Maybe it has something to do with the letter. I agree that his hurting his hand issue might be a plot to buy time. He should have received it on the day he was injured. Well, my time is up for now. This invitation really shocked me. I wouldn't even think of going, of course!

I think it's safe to say that he got the letter based upon his sudden surprising behavior. I'm glad to see you aren't going for it, but it does show what lengths he will go to to use you for his addiction. Inviting you to the birthday party is a desperate move on his part to keep you in the tangled web.Assuming he has the letter means he is disrespecting your wishes for no contact. I think others have suggested this could happen where he would step up the heat to pressure you. I hope you can see through this and see him for who he is - someone that doesn't care about what YOU want with no contact, and continues to set out to get what HE wants.If he persists, you may need to send one more letter, this time letting him know that if he disrespects your desire for no contact, you will disclose all the details to his wife. I'm not 100% sure that this is the correct next step since I was in favor of sending her an apology letter in the first place. Maybe the apology letter to her would be the better choice as a next step.Anyone out there with some opinions on what should be done if he persists with contact?

BRAVO, DJ!!!Welcome to Sun City -- the land of light, & opportunity to cultivate within your life all that you most deserve.Take some time, take extra care of yourself, & prepare for many new goodnesses to come.You are brave, you are strong, & you will walk a little taller each day you walk away from this major learning experience.On this day, I celebrate y-o-u.~bliss~

Hi DJ,WAY TO GO GIRL !!!I am very proud of you right now !! I do understand how hard it was to send that letter.And I agree with everyone, he may have gotten the letter and is putting on the heat. But, maybe he did not. Continue to avoid all contact and if after next week, when you are POSITIVE he received the letter, he continues to try and contact you, perhaps another, more assertive letter is in order.You can always threaten to call his wife if he does, but I know you do not want to hurt her ( He is doing a pretty good job of that by himself... do you think he also invited the OOW to the party ? ). Heal a little yourself before you write the apology letter to her.It took me a month, maybe more before I wrote it.Forgiveness is a big step in the healing process. Asking for and giving.I asked his W for forgiveness, I have forgiven myself ,and I have forgiven him. I cannot write him a forgiveness letter, as he would take that as a sign of a possible reconciliation ( I do know him!)So, in my heart I have forgiven.I regret the whole mess,but I cannot beat myself up forever over it.
You wil get to that point.
Now, back to you......... what is DJ doing for DJ during all this turmoil ? The party is today, so please go out and do something special for yourself.He can clean up his own messes from the party, and he needs to.I imagine he will call today for something, just to "throw you a bone"....just to keep you there. See him for what he is DJ. Think if this was your birthday party and he invited the woman he was having an affair with .Tacky.......Love yourself; we all kinda like you around here !!
Have a great day today.Mary

Y'know, DJ, I had a thought about his "party" idea......Think about it: He tells you she is NOT dealing well with her 40th. THEN he wants to have YOU show up as the architect of this *wonderful* let's-celebrate-the-fact-my-wife-hates-that-she's-turning-40 event?!?!?!?! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] It almost sounds like he wants to "SHOVE his W's face in it" in a manner of speaking, THEN watch her LB all over the place, and "justify" himself while he packs and leaves her! What a treasure.AND he is willing to USE YOU to do it!!!!!! What a piece of work he sounds like.I hope I'm wrong. In either case, it's a good thing you are FAR away from this debacle.

djmusicbox,I didn't get the chance to read ALL of the responses to your original post. Maybe you did come to the right place after all. You were a very BRAVE woman to come on this website as you did. Thank the Lord, my husband has never cheated on me. I just wanted to comment on the statement you made in one of your earlier responses. Maybe this will help you put your current situation in perspective. You said that you know God didn't give you a married man but you didn't understand why he made you fall in love with one. God DID NOT make you fall in love with him! The enemy comes to "Kill, Steal, and Destroy". This affair was not God's will, but rather Satan working to destroy a marriage. You were simply his tool. Harsh but true.I commend you for doing the right thing. And God will forgive you for what has already happened if you just ask him. You have probably already done this though. Now, forgive yourself and MOVE ON with your life! Others have given you some good advice on how to accomplish this.

DJ, I've missed a few pages, but I'm still following you some.Do you mind starting another thread? This one is just too blamed long-LOL. Actually it wouldn't matter except for newbies who might be in the same situation you were in.I'm very proud of your determination and the fact that you sent the letter.Your MM is a brownie with lots of nuts in it. I think he's psycho...watch out for him. He's not as good at his game now, is he? He's losing his grip...on everything!!! Yay!!! He will be a broken man after this...and that is where we make the most beneficial changes, at rock bottom.You are not hurting him...he's hurting himself and you just happen to be the splinter that HAS to come out.Keep going and separate yourself out of this situation, emotionally so you can do what needs to be done.Hoping

Hang in, DJ. Stand back and look at this story; what would you think of it if you saw it in Dear Abby?This man is torturing his wife, DJ. This is absolutely pure,refined abuse he's dishing out to her. He's trying to use YOU to hurt her even further..... just as he started using OOW to hurt you....and test the limits of your unthinking devotion...You have done the right thing. As time goes by, you'll be able to separate the real MM from DJ's fantasy MM. You're going to be okay.

Hi Dj,Just thinking about you and wondering how the NC is going? Maybe it's time to retire this thread and start a new one! What do ya think?

Hello all, A big thank you to everyone for your cheers and continued support of my decision to send the NC letter. I know it was the right thing to do.Want2FixIt, we must have been on the same wavelength...just as I was logging into the computer, I thought about starting a new thread...funny you should suggest it! Hoping4future, I agree....this thread is WAY too long!! (In case anyone is still interested, I'll update in a new thread soon.)But first, I'd like to comment on some of the recent replies:Juanita and MaryRN, you've both been through this situation and are so familiar with the manipulation, the pain and the healing. I hope I can be as successful as you two have been in getting my life back together. Some days I wish I could just disappear and re-appear as a new person in a new life. (Kind of like Captain Kirk and Mr. Spock in Star Trek...I'm ready for Scotty to bean me some place new!)As Juststartingover said, I'm beginning to separate the real guy from the fantasy guy that stole my heart. From what I can tell, he doesn't follow many (if ANY) of the MB concepts in his marriage. At one point, my fog was so thick that I admired him for so many reasons...I no longer do.Lupolady, Shaila, and Blissfulorbust, thank you for your input also. There are so many helpful people here who are willing to share their time and advice. I appreciate all of you!!

Great! Glad to hear you are getting through each day. I hope it gets easier day by day. I'll look for a new thread soon but won't be back until next week. I might be able to read, but not post this weekend.Warm Regards

W2FI:
In case you get to read this....have a Happy Father's Day and a safe, great trip!! Enjoy!!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

dj,Glad you're still around!!!! Thanks for your note the other day....I stayed connected....now I'm hoping to get out on schedule Sunday. Stay strong, you remain in my prayers!

Star,I'm happy to see that you are still connected! Thank you for your kind words. You've been such a help to me and I greatly appreciate it. I am managing, day by day. I wish the best for you. Please remember that you and your family have my prayers. Take care and keep in touch!

DJ,I have an idea. You know, you are no longer the OW. I think you should start a new thread in honor of your new status. You can learn alot here about how to make a marriage successful. Why not drop the OW label and join in and make the best of where you are now. You did it sweetie, and I think you have alot you can share with others. hugs

Oh and DJ.....why not name it something like....OW NO MORE!!! You did the right thing, and I know it was very hard, but you are writing a new chapter of your life now, and I think it's time to leave behind that thread.....even symbolically....I think it might help.