I'm new to great forum.

BACKGROUND
My WW had an affair with a former boyfriend who was in town temporarily while I was visiting family. He was always in the wings waiting, and they had a "keep in touch" type of relationship. Of course, I'll admit that the root cause is likely within me as I have trouble "expressing my love", but there were other stressors -- a recent move, loss of a child several years ago, etc. Still, to me, this "Casanova" was waiting in the wings and took advantage of this dip in our marriage.

NOW
I asked her to leave after I found out, which she did.
Yes, I am still having trouble dealing with the aftermath of this affair, and sometimes I just want to throw in the towel, and say, "Well, maybe you too should just be together."

Two things that raised her ire recently.
EXPOSURE: I told our daughter (age 12), her mother, and my parents. She said that this was "harassment" because her side (my neglect) was not also presented. I have explained to my parents "her side", but my mother said that she ALREADY knew about my personality....
My wife insists that this exposure has made reconciliation MORE difficult. I told her it was because I loved her, but she does not understand.
SNOOPING: I snooped on her computer to find out about the affair, and now she says that she will not trust me ever, and she feels the same way as a betrayed spouse.
Her thoughts: With the danger of losing me, she has said that she will stop communicating with Casanova, but she still thinks it was justified, and she thinks it's OK if "she gets lonely again". I have difficulty accepting this.
She says, "You think that infidelity is as bad as murder. I don't think so."

FROM HERE
SNOOPING/MONITORING: Are there ground rules for monitoring the other spouse's behavior? Why do I have to tell them how they were caught? Both of them were very sneaky (and he gave her advice on avoiding detection), and so I really do not feel secure revealing all the methods. I feel that it is irrelevant, and I was able to successfully get them to stop, which was its true purpose. (In fact, I only started after I sensed something was amiss. I NEVER monitored my wife before that.)
EXPOSURE: I know the exposure recommendations here (Exposure 101 thread), but are there exceptions?
CONDITIONS IF ANY: Besides no contact with former lover, what are reasonable demands for reconciliation?
I understand that I must meet her needs, but must I always be compared to Casanova?

Any advice? What should be my gameplan from here?
My emotional state is not very good now, but a clear path would be a great help.

Thanks in advance, everyone!

JapanDude

Welcome and sorry for what's brought you here.

On exposure, who did you expose to on OM's side?
Your wife is saying these things because she's an addict and the OM is her drug.
You're in Plan A Carrot and Stick of Plan A
When your wife speaks alien about your exposure and snooping has ruined your chance to recovery you say, I will do whatever it takes to save my marriage. You want a cookie?"

No snooping is not wrong. Read these. Snooping is it right or wrong
Jow can trust be restored after an affair

How was your WW contacting him? You need to shut down all her avenues of how she contacted him.

BrainHurts,

Thanks for the links. Excellent information!

She was contacting him by cell phone and e-mail. She is now staying with her mother, and I think that she has stopped contacting him, but I have no way of knowing since my snooping was revealed when I did the exposure, and she is no longer physically here.

He is now out of town, and so there is currently no danger of them meeting physically, but he is really only a phone call or e-mail away.

Who pays for her phone? If you do turn her phone off.

Who did you expose to on OM's side? Is he M? Does he have facebook?

On the OM's side, I only told his wife. He is on Facebook, but I am still reluctant to do the mass exposure that is described in Exposure 101. I just don't see the benefit. He is widely known as a Casanova, and maybe it would enhance his reputation....

I will look into turning the phone off, but people use their cell phones for everything these days, and so I want to be careful about that. I would like to monitor the numbers/emails that she gets on the phone....

Thanks again for your responses. Truly appreciated!

Can you put some spyware on it? Look at this for help. Operation Investigate

What did his wife say?

I plan to install spyware on her phone if she comes back.

I have not gotten a response from his wife yet, which is a little weird to me. It was a message through Facebook, and so maybe she is one of those people who is not active in FB?

Also, how do I explain that my limited exposure was GOOD for her and good for us? She says that it is pushing her away.

Thanks again!

Right from the Exposure 101 thread.

Great stuff.
My daughter (age 12) and I really bummed out right now. She has been crying so much. But the WW says it's my fault for telling our daughter. I have also been telling my daughter the story of how I found out too, and the WW has said my "lips are too loose". Maybe it's just that I want someone to talk to, but she wants to know everything, she wants to know if her world will come crashing down too.

I hope that you are right about the "exposure fallout". Yes, she was definitely furious, but she says, for example, that she cannot show her face to my family anymore because of this, etc.
Are there any responses to that kind of statement, or do you just want until she comes to an understanding herself?

Thanks!

What comes through LOUD and CLEAR in your posts is self-doubt and fear.

GET OVER IT!

You didn't tell her side of the story in your exposure? GOOD! Let the one sleeping around with another man tell her own slutty story!

WW is angry YOU told your 12yo daughter? Ohhh, pity-party time! Set up some time when the three of you can sit down as a family and have WW explain to your pre-teen daughter why going heels-to-the-ceiling for another man is correct behavior.

You only told the OM's BW? Maybe? Make your entire life's goal for the next few days to tell everyone who ever met, knew, or conversed with this scumbag that he's been busy banging a married woman!
If you want to make an omelet, ya gotta break some eggs, my friend. It is the history here that "moved-out" WWs can only rarely be brought back to the marriage. They CERTAINLY cannot be "niced" back.

Thanks for the advice. But then, it looks like I made a mistake because it was I who suggested she that she leave when I finally got her to admit her affair and lies. She did not want to leave, but said that she would if I insisted. It was just too much for me to handle. She took our 2-year old son and is staying with her mother, and so I looked at it as temporary, but it would easily become a permanent arrangement too. Stupid, stupid me.

I would strongly suggest that you call the wife and speak to her personally. That message might have been intercepted or she might not even go on facebook. I would also do a facebook exposure targeting his family members. This will be a major affair killer because it will ruin any fantasies your wife has about joining the OM's family.


Would you try to reason with a falling down drunk? Do you find a fogged out wayward to be very receptive to reason? It is somewhat loony to suggest that it "pushed her away" when she is about as far away as one can get.

Wild horses could not "push away" a wayward who was committed and determined to recover her marriage, so don't worry about that!

"I am so sorry you are embarrassed about your affair! I don't blame you."

How does her mother feel about her adultery?

...it was I who suggested she that she leave...

It would be of immeasurable benefit if she were home. Get her to come back where you can better monitor her actions, and start the process of repairing your damaged marriage.

(But while she's still not home, install the spyware on any computer she might use there, and hide VAR's in the rooms she might retire to to take cell calls. Also, acquire some GPS units for all your family vehicles.)

MelodyLane: Thanks for the advice. The mother of the WW is actually fairly neutral, which is good considering that she is her mother. Of course, her mother was disappointed that her daughter lied to her because they always talk about everything together, but this fact was hidden from her. Plus, the mother had met the Casanova many years ago and never liked him.

NeverGuessed: Really? I see. Oh, that will be so hard for me. Aren't there any benefits for keeping her away? My reasoning was that she needed to live life without me to really see if she needed me.
Unfortunately, the spyware on the computer was revealed when I did the exposure, and so that option is now out. I like the ideas of the VARs (voice-activated recorders).

Thanks!!

Also on telling your DD12 so you know you did the right thing listen to this radio clip where Dr. H tells the parent to tell as young as 4.
Radio clip on telling children
Infidelity the lessons children learn

Just to let you know you did the right thing.

I would also try and contact the OM's BW again, because it is very likely that she never received the message.

Mr. Machismo may have intercepted it.

Does the mother know about the affair NOW? I am sorry to hear she is "neutral." Some parents don't care very much about their kids, sadly.


There is no benefit to keeping her away. That was a strategic mistake because it makes you the bad guy while giving her the freedom to carry on her affair. It makes it very hard to save your marriage if she is not there.

Would she come back if you asked? It is obvious that the affair is still active so I would be surprised if she would come back.

Will her mother not help you at all? Or is she completely uncaring?

MelodyLane: Yes, the mother knows about the affair now. I told her, in fact. I heard that her mother is "disappointed" in her daughter, but I think that's about all the support that I can expect.

I think that she WOULD come back if I asked, but it would be a really terrible atmosphere since she is still incensed about my snooping and telling the relatives (her parents and mine). I really kicked her out to protect my mental health because her lies, justifications, and insistence on keeping in contact was taking its toll on me.

Also, my reasoning was that, up to now, she never thought that we could be separated. No matter what happened, I would be there for her. She took me for granted, basically.

Now, she also feels that my DD12 and I are ganging up on her.... And she has started talking divorce.

Your best bet in saving your marriage is to kill her affair and get her home. The way you kill the affair is to expose it to the OM's wife and family. I would confront the OM yourself and try and enlist your MIL to run that sack of crap off. Ask her to call him up and threaten to make his life hell. We have had affairs killed THAT DAY by a caring parent. MrsW's [a former WW] mother called the OM and ran him off herself. Your MIL can do this too.

Once you get the affair exposed wide and far, I would tell her she can come back if she ends her affair. Let her know that yes, this will lead to divorce if she doesn't end all contact for life and meet certain conditions.

I would also paint a very, very ugly picture of the future if this goes to divorce. Make it as ugly as you can and talk about filing on grounds of adultery and having the OM dragged into court to give sworn testimony. They would also force him and your WW to turn over their emails, cell phone records, etc in discovery. She needs to know that you will not roll over in a divorce, but will give her the fight of her life.

The reason you would do this is to burst her fantasies about divorce. WW's fantasize about a simple divorce where you step aside and allow the OM to take your place. And you still pay the bills, of course! So you need to disabuse her of this notion.

JapanDude, can you track his wife down by googling her name? Can you get a phone number for her? She is a critical exposure target and could very well be the deal-breaker for their affair. Make it a priority to track her down, since she hasn't responded on FB.

So your WW isn't going to trust you any longer? I always have to laugh about that one. YOU'RE the faithful spouse, and SHE isn't going to trust YOU?

Her mother is 'disappointed' that her daughter is destroying her grandchildren's family?? Does she not understand the far-reaching implications of her daughter's adultery??

You say your WW is talking divorce. Have you mentioned to your WW that you will be going for full custody, and will consider visitation after confirming that her man-ho doesn't have any convictions for domestic violence, drug use, DUI's, child molestation, etc?

Is DD12 her biological daughter?

Maritalbliss: Your guess is correct. The DD12 is my biological daughter, not hers. This is my second marriage.

After talking with my wife, here is what she said.
*She has cut off all contact with the guy, and she even said so before she left. (This may have been where I made my mistake?) Even so, she continued to deny and lie up until her last day here (yesterday), but everything was just too much for me to bear at that time.
*She does not want to return to an environment where I would be suspicious of her. She said it would be too stifling. She said that my snooping was equivalent to breaking her trust with the affair. I did not agree. I maintained that it was the only way to stop the affair. She says my actions should have been directly elsewhere to make her happy.
In short, she wants a trusting relationship, but not a transparent one.
*She is still fuming that I told my DD12 and each of our parents. She said that I have done irreparable damage, have "not shown love (as always)" by this action, and was vindictive.

So sad.

The affair is still going on. This is the reason she does not want you to snoop and is adamant against being transparent.

I would follow through with my suggestions and kill the affair. Once you kill the affair, she will be more willing to work on your marriage.

Well, I talked to her again today.
She said that I can look at her cellphone and computer at any time. She'll even give me any passwords to her mail accounts, BUT she does not want any snooping software on her computer. IF she finds it, she will immediately divorce me, she said. She has our 2-year old son too, and so my DD12 and I would really miss both of them.

She emphasized that the cause was the loneliness that she felt from years of neglect from me. Although I admit that a neutral third-party would admit she has a point, I was also dealing with a number of crises on my end (financial difficulties, hospital bills, etc.) that consumed me.

She said that she is 80% sure that she wants a divorce now that my snooping came out (due to the exposure).
Do I play hard or soft? I could lose her....

My first inclination is to just turn OFF the software, and use her reasoning where she claimed that she did not get a phone call from her boyfriend "because I didn't pick up". In other words, I am not monitoring because it is OFF.

You are going to lose her if you don't kill this affair. Everything she has told you is an indicator that the affair is still on and that she doesn't want you to find out. People who have nothing to hide, don't hide. If you don't kill this affair you are going to lose your marriage.

Your wife does not have the plan to save your marriage, WE DO. So listening to her is going to cost you your marriage.

Please don't post fogbabble anymore, my friend, and stick to the PLAN. Expose the affair to the OM's facebook contacts. Call the OM's wife. Kill the AFFAIR. It is really cute and winsome that she is gaslighting you about snooping on her, but it does nothing to save your marriage. Stop trying to negotiate with a terrorist!

The fact that she is threatening to divorce you over a keylogger should be a HUGE RED FLAG THAT THE AFFAIR IS STILL ON!

So, stop posting fogbabble and stick to the plan, my man!!

That might have made her vulnerable to an affair, but the cause is her piss poor boundaries around other men. If she had not allowed another man to meet her needs, the affair would have never happened.

I am sure she has another phone , too. That's why she is offering up the one you know about.

She thinks she has the power. Change it.

A person who was truly interested in proving her honesty would ask you to PLEASE leave the keylogger on her computer because it would clear her good name. A person who had something to hide would object to such scrutiny, however.

People who have nothing to hide, don't hide. Period. Your wife is still having an affair!

Which, of course, confirms that the main point of contact between them will be the computer.

www.spectorsoft.com

You'll have to snoop for an affair phone. It sounds like she's planning to get one. You'll probably find it in her purse.

This is all hogwash. If she felt lonely, why didn't she speak up? You're not a mind-reader, man! Don't let her blame this on you! She is having an affair because she has poor boundaries and chose to have one.

Have you made it clear to her that you intend to counter-sue on the grounds of adultery and will go for full custody of your 2 year old? Your WW's got a pretty picture in her head right now: she will keep your 2 year old and let you occasionally see him. Or she'll let you babysit him so she can be with her OM when her mother's not available. You need to let her know that there will be many extended periods of time when she will not have ANY access her son. You have NO intention of letting her come over every night to tuck him in when it's "your" weekend, etc.

Remind me: have you tracked down background info on this loser yet? If he's got anything more than a parking ticket you may be able to use it to his advantage.

You play the steady person in this relationship. "Honey, I love you, but I will not allow anyone to come into our marriage and destroy it. I will whatever it takes to keep that from happening. I hope you would do the same."

MelodyLane: Thanks. I just talked to her, and I did not relent on keylogger, and she more or less accepted it reluctantly. (Still, a keylogger is useless if it's existence is known.) Actually, I believe that the affair is over, but I feel that she may just want to keep him in the wings in case things sour with us.

RidicSit: Actually, the real reason that she has the power is that she has my 2-year son with her and is taking care of him. They are a package deal.
I would definitely push harder otherwise. My DD12 and I definitely miss both of them.

In short, I don't believe that the affair is still ongoing because he is no longer in town, but it is a "keep in touch" type of relationship that can begin at any time at the spur of the moment. That's how it started last time, and if it starts again, it will be the same way. Although next time, I don't think that she'll use the computer....

Which all means the affair is ON. Do you understand this? As long as you have computers and phones in your town, the affair can easily be resumed. Do you live in a town that has phone service and internet? If you don't focus on killing this affair, you will lose your marriage. Every day they are free to carry on, the affair becomes more entrenched. This is why you have to drag it out into the light of day and kill it.

The affair is a vampire. Drag it out into the daylight and you can save your marriage. Your marriage can survive her temporary anger over exposure; it cannot survive an ongoing affair.

Call the man's wife. Expose the affair on facebook if you are serious about killing this affair.

Maritalbliss: The point about the affair phone sounds well taken. I will definitely take a look.

Your point about the poor boundaries is a good one. I allowed her to "keep in touch" with him as old friends. At that point, she was open about it. There is even a Facebook message of his from last year that says, "It's great that your husband says it's fine that we can keep in touch." In retrospect, I really look like the dupe.

As for the guy, I have his e-mail and town where he lives. What other information can I use, and where could I get it?

I guess that I am just too drained to think about a custody battle. I was also under the assumption that women get custody in most cases with little kids anyway (2 years old).

That's exactly what I was looking for. Thanks!!

Which means you'll be living in purgatory for the rest of your life. That's mental cruelty for you and will keep your marriage on shaky, moment-to-moment ground.

Okay - you've got a keylogger so ignore the link I gave you. And she knows of its existence, got it. Leave it on there anyway. She needs to know that you will do whatever it takes to keep your marriage safe. My former wayward husband knows that I employ a variety of tools to confirm his fidelity. The "Blind Trust" tool is not on my tools list. He's cool with that, because he is committed to our marriage. You want to get your WW to that same point.

This is why it is so important that you burst her fantasy that you will occasionally have your son when it's convenient for her. Right now she's aware of that possibility, and that's why she's saying she's only "80%" sure of divorce. She knows that she could lose much physical custody of her son, and she doesn't want that. Be clear: As his father, YOU have a "package deal" with your son, as well. You need to let her know that the reality of child custody is going to be quite different than the childcare scenario she's envisioning.

They don't have to be in the act for the A to be continuing. Any contact between them keeps it active. For the A to be over, all contact between the 2 of them must cease.

Simply not having sex isn't an end to the A.

If you do this right, I don't think there will BE a custody battle. I'm saying that you need to TELL her that you intend to go for full custody. Don't waste energy, considering whether or not you will actually get it. That's not your goal right now. You want to put a wrinkle in her plans. You want to make it clear to her that you're not going to roll over for this affair. She wants you to play nice so she can have her cake and eat it too. Let her know that you intend to fight for your marriage and your family.

Do you have access to his Facebook page? You can get intel from that. (Copy and paste all of his contacts into a Word doc for possible use. More on that later.)

He's married, correct? If so, his wife is your most valuable exposure target. Exposing the A to her may well kill it immediately. (And make no mistake: The A is not dead.)

Go to the county auditor's website where he lives and put his name in the search box. See what comes up. If he owns a house and it's titled in his name, that will tell you where he lives. See if the house is titled in his name and a woman's name. That will likely be his wife's name. Google her and see what you get.

www.intelius.com Go to this site and google his name. It will bring up his name and associated names. You may get a hit on his wife's name on this site.

Maritalbliss: Thanks for your support about keeping the keylogger and other surveillance tools. I was beginning to lose my nerve.
I also like your idea of explaining the rough reality of joint custody.
Your idea of also showing a little more backbone regarding custody is a great strategy. I like it!
Regarding the guy, I have his full name and city name, but I cannot get any farther than that. (The city name might not be current.)

Neak: Great point about affairs. This helps me so much because she is fighting for every inch of secrecy, and your definition is so black and white.

Thanks!!

Do the searches that I told you about. It doesn't matter if the city isn't current. See what you get. Intelius will give you names that are associated with his, including any spouses or parents, etc. It may not be completely up to date, but it will give you a starting point. The idea is to get the names.

JG, I would go on his wife's Facebook page and find her family members. Send them a PM, telling them about the affair and ask them to contact her and have her call you.

Additionally, I would expose the affair to his Facebook contacts. Affairs thrive on secrecy so the more people that know, the more people to hold him accountable. OM are weasels who don't want any trouble, so your job is to run this rat off.

I cannot express how important it is that you kill this affair. The longer the affair goes on, the harder it will be to kill. You have a slim window of opportunity here that you can't afford to miss.

J-Dude, let me tell you how lucky you are.

You've had ML, MB, and Neak, the best of the best, offering you guidance all day. Additionally, I have been away, so you didn't have to suffer my occasionally acerbic contributions.

But......I'm back.

"Affairs" for women do not require physical viablity of their APs. Women can have fantasy-based emotional linkages long after the object of their affection is no longer present. Their romantically-oriented brains can retain what "happened" and they can cling to that like barnacles on a ship's bottom, or more directly, they can go for months without additional inputs of EN satisfaction, being the "camels" of the infidelity world.

Her affair is likely to linger in abeyance unless you kill it deader than dead. The most effective way to do that is to reveal him for the relationship-termite that he is. EXPOSE TO HIS WIFE!!! Stop debating with the EXPERTS here who are trying to help you, cease giving them the uninformed reasons you have been basically doing everything wrong until now.

GET YOUR WIFE HOME!

EXPOSE TO POSOM's WHOLE WORLD!

As for the keylogger, tell her you've had second thoughts, and you will trust her on her usage of the computer....and then install the k/l secretly.

Zabasearch.com is another good (and free) resource that often turns up valuable information. I would still run an Intelius search, too, because that gives you likely relatives, and anyone who may have lived in the same house with OM.

OK! I have started to dig up info on this guy.
I have a possible home address and a definite cell phone number for him. I tried checking on the property records for his county, but this state (CA) deletes the name of the owner on the property records that are displayed.
As I mentioned before, I had found the wife's Facebook page, and I sent her a message (no reply) about the affair, but now, her Facebook page is gone. I double-checked to make sure that I was not blocked, but no, it is GONE.
It is likely that she has her own cell phone, but that is almost impossible to find, I think.

Regarding the k\l, that is EXACTLY what I had in mind.

I now have a confirmed address on Intelius.
I cannot find a home phone, and it's likely that there is no home phone anyway (cell phone only household since both spouses are working). Do I spend the $39.95 to get the whole information package?

I also ran the name of the wife through Intelius, but there were no hits. She is not American, and so it is no surprise that there were be few public records for her.

Thanks!

Is the OM on facebook?

Either the OM deleted her page or the OMW did after he told her some big lie about you.

Yes, the OM is on Facebook.

I would copy and paste all of his contacts into a word doc NOW for safekeeping.

And I would send out exposure letters to his contacts. Can you ID any in-laws there? Do you not see his wife?

Is it possible his wife has you blocked?

Go with something like this:

Dear friend of JoeScumbag:

It grieves me to write this letter but I believe all of his friends should know the kind of person he really is. Joe had an affair with my wife, Sally, from Aug until September. I believe that his friends should know this, so you can protect your marriage from him. My wife and I have 2 small daughters and this affair has almost wrecked our marriage.

I would be happy to provide the evidence to anyone who asks.

I would appreciate it if someone would notify his wife and his parents and ask them to call me at xxx-www-xxxx.

Thank you, BH

OK. I have found his friend list -- 909 in all. Probably a little less if you take out the companies. I saw in Exposure 101 where you replace your profile photo with a family photo before sending out this letter.
This will take a lot of nerve, and I am not sure that I can do it.....

Well, he has a lot of nerve having an affair with your wife. would you do it if it would save your marriage? Because that is what it is going to take to save your marriage. He does have a lot of nerve, so it will take alot of nerve on your part to run this rat off.

I would not try to send it out to 900 people. Make a priority list and rank the contacts. Start with any of his wife's family, then move to his family and from there go to married people. Try to send out as many as you can.

Don't spend your money on that! There's a 2.95 package for 24 hours that you can use.

MaritalBliss, thanks for that, but I will hold off for now.

MemoryLane: You are probably going to get mad at me for this, but although I did save the FB Friend information of the OM as both an HTML file and DOC file, I cannot bring myself to take this exposure step yet. I would like to save it for the next communication between the two of them....

Update: I am getting mixed signals. She wants to come back, but both her and her mother are upset that I told my parents. She thinks that she can never show her face in my parents' house again. She also characterizes my computer snooping as a betrayal -- "I thought you were more pure". I know that this is a bad sign, perhaps that the A is still ongoing or maybe just withdraw symptoms because I took away the crack pipe. Still, it makes me a little upset because it makes the future road look very long and bleak.

Thanks again for your help everyone. You are great!!

Hang on a sec - are you saying you want to wait to let that scumbag's wife know what he's been doing with your wife?? WHY??
As a betrayal of HER betrayal? I find that too laughable to even address. She probably shouldn't have had the affair, then. Too bad for her. But I'm sure she can recover when she commits to the recovery of her marriage. If, indeed, you are willing to have her.

It's all up to you.

MemoryLane: You are probably going to get mad at me for this, but...I cannot bring myself to take this exposure step yet.

J-Dude, from experience, it's not ML's anger that you should fear, but her possible disinterest in deciding that you do not have the "stomach for the fight" that you are in. I made this point to you in my first post. You cannot be timid and fearful. WWs have no respect for fearful BHs. They may explode in anger at a strong BH's actions such as exposure and financial isolation, but they do respect the commitment and strength.

In two years here, there are two BHs whose efforts won back WWs totally, immediately, and without question - mirrormirror and myself. Both of us were terrible in our pursuit of killing the affair.

Maritalbliss and NeverGuessed: Well, I have done the prep for the FB exposure, but I guess I need just one more push. It seems that they have stopped communication. The problem is the lingering affection. That's why I cannot bring myself to take this step yet ... I only have limited energy right now.

Update: I just Skyped her. Things do not look good. She says that she felt lonely and neglected, and he enlivened her again. She said that she felt trapped in the marriage, and no one could give her supportive advice ... except for him. I explained that she could have called anyone who attended our marriage ceremony, my parents, my friends -- they would have helped us keep our vows. She says that she is still "grateful" to him for supporting her, and I should be grateful too because he saved her.

I am despondent at the thought of losing my son and wife....

So you're putting the silver bullet back on the shelf and saving it for a special occasion?

Wrong move.

"MemoryLane: You are probably going to get mad at me for this, but although I did save the FB Friend information of the OM as both an HTML file and DOC file, I cannot bring myself to take this exposure step yet. I would like to save it for the next communication between the two of them...."

You really don't have the luxury to wait around until you have evidence of more communication. The affair is still ongoing and that is evidenced by the things she says. The longer you wait to kill the affair the harder it will be to kill it.

Can I ask why you would wait when it is in you and your wife's best interest to expose this affair? The only thing that benefits from your silence is the affair. And certainly you comprehend that is the greatest risk to your marriage?

Your wife's anger over catching here cheat is a sign of the fog so don't let it bother you. If you will take action to kill her affair the fog will leave. But as long as you aide and abet it, the fog will continue.

How are you coming along in your pursuit of the OMs wife?

Please listen to these radio segments. It is of a couple who followed the plan and have a recovered marriage. The BH did the exposure and the WW's mom put pressure on her to stop the affair.
Radio Clip of a couple who recovered from an affair segment 1
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4

MelodyLane: OK. You are getting me closer. I just can't do it yet. Still, I am ready. I talked to my parents about this idea, and they are just afraid that it will start WWIII.
She went ballistic when I told my mother and father because they actually used to think that she was a great person and extremely trustworthy. She had built up a lot of goodwill with them. She knows that she ruined her reputation with them.
She also wants me to promise to not tell anyone else. It's actually one of her conditions for reconciliation. I was not planning to do a grand FB announcement, but even private FB messages might have the same result.
Give me a few more hours, and I might change my mind. I appreciate your help, but she also sought him out, and so they are both to blame.
Still, one argument FOR why I should do it. She told me that he married last year (paper marriage for helping the wife's visa paperwork) and his official wedding is coming up in July. I would assume that most of the wedding guests would be on his Friend list.....

The search for the OM's wife has hit a dead end. I found the address where they live, but because it's likely that they have cell phones, I don't think that I will find her number. Still, I did message her by FB (no reply), and within a day of that, her profile was off FB. (I checked, and I was not blocked. She is no longer on FB.)

Update: I have played very soft (weak?), and the wife is talking about coming back. She wants this issue to be in the past, but she understands that I will have suspicions.

Of course she doesn't want you to tell anyone else, then she might actually have to face the music.

You MUST do it, and soon. Do NOT waste more time wondering! That poor woman that OM is with deserves to know what a cad she's hitched to. And the more you put it off the less you will want to do it.

Expose. Now. Give no warning. Be merciless. Your marriage can withstand her anger but NOT an affair!

WHEN you expose via FB, give 1 minute between messages to avoid being stopped from messaging.

Japandude, how many marriages have your parents saved? What are their credentials? You see, Dr Harley has saved thousands of marriages using these tactics, I suspect your parents have saved none. The only reason your wife would not want you to expose to the OMs wife is so she can continue her affair. And you seriously want to facilitate that?

You have a very short window of opportunity to save your marriage. The longer you wait, the harder it will be to save this. Your marriage can survive your wife's anger; it cannot survive an ongoing affair. Ad yes, her affair is stil active. I guarantee it.

JapanDude. Exposure did not ruin her reputation...her actions ruined her reputation.

Reaching out for support from people of influence in her life is your best chance at knocking her out of the fog.

Don't worry about your WW anger at exposure. She can redeem herself if she chooses to take the right steps in that direction. Right now you are allowing her to turn everything around on you and you will not recover that way.

Find OM wife's and tell her the truth about her life. She needs to protect herself just like you do. Only OM wife's doesn't know it. That is heartless.

You can do this. Breath deeply.

"She also wants me to promise to not tell anyone else. It's actually one of her conditions for reconciliation. I was not planning to do a grand FB announcement, but even private FB messages might have the same result."

Japandude, your wife does not get to set the conditions for reconciliation. The OMs wife has to know what your wife and and sleazy husband have done to her so she can protect herself. You have a moral obligation to inform this woman what is being done to her. Your wife is out of line asking you to hide her affair. You harm your wife, the OM, yourself and the OMW by helping the affairees hide the affair.

Affairs thrive on secrecy so keeping it a secret for them only serves to enable the affair. And you can't save a marriage when you are an enabler.

Go listen to the radio clips in the thread in my link of dr H telling other men that it is hard to save a marriage when you are an enabler. The ones who did expose their wife's affairs saved their marriages. The ones who didn't lost their marriages.

Exposure is the very best way for you to take. Once your WW stops her ongoing A, she can make amends with anyone she cares about, including friends and family.

And yes, her affair is stil active.

The most damning evidence of the ongoing "life" of the affair within your WW is the resistance she is displaying regarding your exposure of POSOM to his contacts. If she was out of her affair, she would view that action with the same dispassion as if you were threatening to expose ME, or some other person she does not know.

She wants to "protect" scumbag because she still has feeling for scumbag. She cares more for his needs, right now, than she does for yours. That by itself would send me to "Exposure Central", my friend.

BTW: As you "tip-toe" toward taking the firm and resolute action, J-Dude, you are making your WW's choice of POSOM over you, to HER, all the more appropriate.

Easier, too.

"She also wants me to promise to not tell anyone else. It's actually one of her conditions for reconciliation. I was not planning to do a grand FB announcement, but even private FB messages might have the same result."


Thanks, needed a laugh today.

She giving you conditions while she still is doing the other guy is frankly one of the funniest things Ive heard on here in a while. Look for a thread called Funniest Things A Wayward Spouse has said (or something like that). You must post this line.

Do the grand FB exposure. Shout from the rooftops. The sooner this is done the sooner she stop being with the other guy. Roaches hate the light, they scramble for cover. Right now she is dirty like a roach.

And, what she says matters little until the affair is over.

That's foggy wayward-speak. Ignore that.

You sound like you're trying to quit smoking. Do you want to save your marriage? Do you understand that the people posting to you (me included) are in recovered marriages ONLY AFTER their waywards' affairs were exposed??

Go there. If you find that too much for your efforts, hire a PI to go to her for you. GET TO HIS WIFE. It will more than likely kill the affair.

Answer this: What are you afraid of? Your wife is planning her exit strategy. You don't want that. She's got one foot out the door. WHAT ARE YOU AFRAID OF? WHY ARE YOU WAITING??

Sir, you are going to have to yank up your britches and dig deep for the resolve that you will need to save your marriage. I suspect that you are hedging on the side of your WW coming back around to a semblance of her pre-affair self. That's not going to happen, JD. You need to kill this affair swiftly and completely. I can't imagine why you are waffling on this.

You've already lost your M. It's gone.

The only chance you have to bring it back to life is to kill the A that killed your M.

JD, you best start listening to these fine folks. They know what they speak! Your window of opportunity is shrinking by the minute.

What do you, at this point, have to lose by full (and I mean FULL) nuclear exposure?

I'll answer it for you: NOTHING!

There are no guarantees. It may work, it may not. If it works, then you may be on the path to a possible recovery. If it doesn't work, then guess where you are? Right where you are RIGHT now. That last sentence is a guarantee, and the only one I'll make.

Okay, check that, I'm going to make one more guarantee. If you don't do everything possible to bust this up, you'll regret it for the rest of your life. Do want to live the rest of your life knowing you had the power to do more, but didn't out of fear?

I know I wouldn't.

FB exposure: OK, guys. I still cannot move on this although I have made the necessary preparation. I guess there is one other factor that is holding me back. In fact, I am an American living in Japan, my WW is Japanese, and the guy was an old American boyfriend who was in Tokyo for a brief 3-month work stint. He is back in California, but of course, he could reappear on a short visit at any time (unlikely over the short term, but a near certainty over the long term).
I reason (perhaps incorrectly) that my wife would look upon her exposure with more shame than a typical American. She has already said that she is too ashamed to set foot into my parents' house again, and she has already written my mother a long, apologetic letter.
I am holding back on the exposure because the effect of my first small exposure are still rippling, and I am trying to get her to return home. Doing another major exposure now would fling her back.

Update: Things are going downhill anyway. The WW still remains with her mother and my son (2) near Tokyo. She told me yesterday that she considers my use of the keylogger "underhanded" and "dishonest", but I told her it was to free her from her addiction. She got angry and hung up. She is threatening divorce.
Thanks to the advice here, I am staying calm and sticking to my guns. I hope that she understands what made me do it.

Have you read this by Dr. Harley?
Snooping: Is it wrong?Or, is it the right thing to do in marriage?

Did you see this also?
From here How to Survive an Affair

I found the thread here:
"Craziest things to come out of a wayward's piehole"
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2617841&page=1

I think I'll read through it to take my mind off this situation..... Maybe it'll give me more resolve....

BrainHurts: That is great stuff, and I do not regret what I have done so far, but I guess my first priority is getting her home. She cites her loss of trust in me for the surveillance plus my exposure to my parents as the primary reasons right now. That prevents me from ratcheting it up.
Maybe I should just let her stew?

JapanDude

Read this also.
Never take the word of a Wayward

Thanks. A lot of that is really relevant to me now.

That's why the path is such a narrow path to follow because all wayward's speak from the same script and that's why all the vets are telling you to do a facebook exposure on the OM. The angrier the WS becomes the better the exposure is on target.

If she "supposedly" is already divorcing you then what do you have to lose?

Update: It looks like she will be coming back home tomorrow. I will pick her up tomorrow by train. She asked me to take off the keylogger from her computer "for trust". Yeah, I do not like that, but do I tell her to forget it and not come home with my DS2?
My honest feeling is that I still do want to conduct surveillance on her.
She seems sincere in trying to work things out. She wrote a nice letter apologizing to my parents.
I felt like she wants to come home, and I do not want to push her away now. I know that I may have lost my window for grand exposure, but she did tell her sister the other day, and so I am sure that the word has already spread far and wide.

We still argue whether use of the keylogger was appropriate. I do not apologize, and I explain that there was no way to stop her otherwise. I told her that any further contact (phone, e-mail) would be construed as continuing of the affair. For now, I hope that love can patch things up....

Do not take that keylogger off and do not let her know you have it on there.

Well, I was thinking of installing another keylogger, such as Free Keylogger, tonight and then uninstalling it before her. Therefore, the original keylogger would stay on there.

Very good idea. Like in Dr. Harley's article about snooping "if you have nothing to hide then you don't mind for your spouse to snoop". Keep up your snooping and Plan A her like the best H you are when she gets home.

That's right. I am glad to move on to Plan A. I have to admit that making her leave was probably a mistake.

I was thinking of installing another keylogger...and then uninstalling it before her.

Very much in line with what I suggested a few days ago - therefore a BRILLIANT plan!

Stop listening to her bovine by-product, okay? "Oh dear, I'm so embarrassed by your exposure, being as I am a traditional Japanese woman!" Uhh, no sweetie, traditional Japanese women do not open up their "lotus blossom" for old "gaijen" boyfriends!

That is a great idea JapanDude. But only because it will allow you to keep an eye her while she thinks you are not looking. Secret snooping methods are a must at this early stage.

But honestly JapanDude, you are appearing weak when you keep backing down because of fear over WW anger and manipulation tactics. The next time WW starts babbling about not being able to trust you, tell her that she can trust you to watch her like a hawk until she EARNS your trust.

Women love strong men. They respect them.

Plan A without the "stick" is plan doormat.

Another exposure would kill the affair. You don't understand what you are dealing with. Your wife's objection to exposure stems from her FOG which stems from the affair. She will not be angry about exposure when her fog dissipates. Shame is a good thing, not a bad thing. Shame and guilt are our conscience's warning system that something is wrong. In order for your wife to want to change, she has to feel change.

By hiding the affair from the OM's wife and his family, you enable the affair at the expense of your marriage.

I am curious about what you intend on doing about the OM's wife? Is it your goal to hide the affair from her? How will she know what your wife has done to her if you don't tell her?


You are making strategic mistakes that are going to cost you your marriage if you don't listen to us. The reason your wife objects to the keylogger is because HER AFFAIR IS STILL ON. Kill the affair!!

THE KEYLOGGER IS A DISTRACTION FROM THE MAIN PROBLEM!! Can we please drop the keylogger issue and focus on the main problem, which is the REASON she objects to the keylogger? The REASON she objects to the keylogger is because THE AFFAIR IS STILL ON.

If you don't focus on killing the affair, the keylogger will be a moot point.

HOW WILL THE OMW LEARN OF THE AFFAIR??

GETTING VERY FRUSTRATED HERE AT THE DISTRACTIONS!!

JD -- Doing another person's spouse transcends country borders, religions, ideals, tenets, credos, and is done all over the place. Do not put any ancient Japanese mumbo jumbo out there as a reason to avoid telling everyone about her doing another 'round eye'. She is a lowlife cheater who is under the spell of another lowlife and sees nothing wrong with destroying you, your kid and many others in her path.

I can call your wife names like that because my wife was just that. But, we followed a clear-cut program to reclaim her from the same muck that your wife seems OK to mire in. She aint going to volunteer to it otherwise she'd done it already.

By exposing as EVERYONE here is advocating and you seem to be content finding a million excuses not to, you have the potential to snap her out of this fog.

Keyloggers, VARs, and the like are step 2 stuff. Letting everyone know about what she is doing is NUMERO UNO. Number one. Number ichi.

MelodyLane and everyone else: Sorry about the inaction on the exposure, but my first priority at the back of my mind has been to get my WW and DS2 home. I leave tomorrow, and I will bring them back from the WW's mother's (my MIL) the next day.

I'd like to fight the other battles once they get back here.
I am ready to do an exposure to the mother of the OM.
As for the OM's wife, I have tried to find her, and I DID send her a message via Facebook, but within 24 hours, her profile was deleted. I logged out of Facebook (just in case I was being blocked), and tried to find it again, and it was GONE.

There are other ways to try and find her have you tried any? You MUST tell OM's wife.
Operation Investigate

Our goal is to save your marriage. Yours is to avoid your wife's anger at all cost. They are entirely different goals. It is better to expose while she is away so that you don't have to deal with the direct fall out of her anger of exposure. That is an ideal situation. And you can find his wife. you just have to look harder. I am sure if you check directory assistance you might find something. You can also find her by exposing to the OM's contacts and asking them to contact her directly.

Even so, you can't give up so easily. The most important exposure is to the OM's wife. Even if you have to hire a PI to find her, you should do it. A PI could probably find her in 2 hours.

Your wife is a menace to this woman and she needs to know the truth so she can protect herself and her children from your wife. Having both spouses informed at both ends greatly increases the odds that affair will be killed.

I would focus on that, rather than wasting your time with fogbabble about a keylogger. That is just ridiculous.

By the way, we call this "trickle exposure." It is like bringing a pea shooter to a gun fight. It is not enough to kill the affair but just enough to piss off the affairees enough to come after you with more intensity. Ask yourself what happens when you bring a pea shooter to a gun fight? You get your [censored] shot off, that is what.

If that is all you are willing to do, then you are wasting your time. I would do NO exposures if you are not willing to do it right, because you will only cause great harm by forewarning the affairees.

Point taken. I will hold off and prepare for the nuclear strike. Please be patient with me with this. Sorry that I cannot take this step yet. I am leaving in an hour on the Shinkansen (bullet train) to pick her up..... It will be interesting to see her attitude when I see her. I will be in Plan A, but I will not forget the stick!

And yet, she hasn't come home, has she. So she's not feeling as guilty as you might think. She appears to be working you by writing that letter to your mother. Her letter to your mother is an attempt to avoid the fallout that your mother should rightly rain down on her head. How did your mother respond to the letter? Do you understand that her apology means nothing while she refuses to return to her family? Those are words. ACTIONS are what you are looking for.

Which tells you that she is not ready to end the affair and return home. A truly repentent wayward doesn't argue over her spouse's affair-killing actions.

Whose trust? She wants to trust YOU? What did YOU do wrong?
I certainly hope your parents set their personal bar high for forgiving her for her horrific actions against their son and grandchild. I know that I would have a LOT to say if my DIL screwed around on my beloved son.

Oh, for crying out loud. JD, are you saying you haven't exposed this exposure to everyone yet??? Do you want your wife back or not?? Sheesh!

No, he hasn't Miss Bliss (sorry, couldn't resist ). I really want to go off, because he is SO close to taking back control, but it seems like you and Mel have this one pretty good.

But, Lordy, I wanna.

JD, stop thinking, and start doing. If you keep this whiny crap up much longer I'll be looking for your episode of Divorce Court on Japanese television within the next year.

Shake your fear and get your butt in gear. And please, and it's been said to you before:

Balls to the wall or not at all. Anything short of that and you may as well just go out and get the best lawyer you can afford. Because you WILL need him.

LOL! Wes, you're a caution!

JD, do you want her back home to stay, or not? Your call.

Oh well, I am what I am.

Even though I really don't mean to

There is the $64,000 question. Do you want to conflict-avoid for the sake of having a grudging, venom-spewing adulteress under your roof for a little while longer before she leaves?

or

Do you want to take action, and have your best chance of a loving, honorable wife for the rest of your life?

Quick update: WW returned back to home with me in the evening two days ago. I am implementing Plan A to the fullest. There have been some initial flareups, but emotionally, things have calmed down considerably, and she is now no longer blaming me for and everything and starting to take responsibility for her actions. Things seems to be improving....

Surveillance: Trying to implement as much as possible, but she is still wary of the computer, and so I need to find other ways.

Exposure: I know I will get lambasted for this, but I have not gone to FULL exposure. However, I DID contact the wife in FB. Result: No reply, and her profile was taken off within 24 hours.

Revenge or exposure?: I got some interesting information from the WW, who is starting to open up to me. The other guy married on paper last July, and he was planning to have an "elaborate" wedding with his wife this July. An exposure could potentially sour his wedding plans. The problem is that things have quieted with the WW, and I think that my efforts should be directed fully towards implementing Plan A. The other wife may ALREADY know from my FB message. Still, I am aware that this is a very effective and valuable window of opportunity between now and July....

I am sorry that I remain ambivalent on this topic.
I know that it is very cut-and-dry to the veterans....

So, you will help the OM and his lover, your wife, trick the OMW? Why? Are you are mean guy? Can you explain why you would do this to an innocent party?

How do you justify your decision?

Wow I feel for OM's BW. She's being abused by her WH and you're just going to sit by and let it happen.

It is very cut and dry to anyone who is not operating on fear and possesses basic decency. The rest of us know you can't possibly justify helping them trick the OM's wife. What kind of a person does that?

Heavy sigh. If and when you decide to grow a pair, let me know.

He is HELPING them deceive her. I don't understand why.

I know, right. I feel so much for this woman. Why would someone be so cruel?

Why would you do this Japandude? Why?

So if your neighbor's bookkeeper was embezzling from him would you use this retarded excuse to get out of telling your neighbor? "Oh, I don't want to tell my neighbor his bookkeeper is stealing him blind because it might be for revenge."

Do you not agree that would be very irrational? Adultery is a greater crime yet that is what you are proposing here. Are you a mean guy?

Have you listened to these radio clips from Dr. Harley on exposure?

Radio clip where Dr. H tells the BH he is enabling for not exposing

Dr. H says expose the heck out of the affair

Boy, you guys are tough, but I love the strong-handed support! I feel like you guys are an older brother or sister to me.

OK, let's review the FB Exposure Procedure for my case.
1) Replace my photo with a family photo

2) Copy other guys's FB friends (DONE)

3) Set a contact order. This is important because he has OVER 900 friends. How is this for an order of priority?
I) Married friends
II) His immediate family (anyone who shares his last name)
III) Women
IV) Others

4) Send off using at least 1 minute interval between messages.

5) Exposure Letter
*************************
(Based on template from MelodyLane (Thanks!))

Dear friend of JoeScumbag:

It grieves me to write this letter, but I believe all of his friends should know the kind of person he really is. When Joe was in Japan for three months recently, he had an affair with my wife, who was a former girlfriend of his. Over our five-year marriage, we have had to deal with the loss of child and an upsetting move to southern Japan due to Fukushima, and this made her particularly vulnerable. Although I believe that both of them share equal blame for their actions, as a husband and father, I find Joe's actions of meeting up with my wife and then meeting with his Japanese in-laws on THE SAME DAY (April 2 or 3) to be particularly repulsive.

I believe that his friends should know this, so you can protect your marriage from him. My wife and I have one small son and daughter, and this affair has almost wrecked our marriage.

I would be happy to provide the evidence to anyone who asks.

I would appreciate it if someone would notify his wife and her parents and ask them to call me at XXX-XXXX-XXX (within Japan). I speak Japanese.

Thank you, BH
*************************
6) Sit back and wait for the blowback.

Put his family at the top of the list. Everything else looks ok. Of course you can't get to 900 people, so cull out 50 to 100 if you can.


Yes, and you will find out real quick if he is still in touch with your wife.

Glad you made the right decision! Doing the right thing isn't always easy.

Is the OM's BW also on your exposure list? This is a must.

I hope I missed it somewhere?

I already notified the OM's BW, but I never received a reply.
Then, within 24 hours, her profile was gone.
She may already know.....

You need to verify this. Have you investigated to find a number on her?

I looked for her number, but I could find nothing. She moved in with the OM last year, and so I guess that she only has a cell phone, which would make it much harder to find her number.

Exposure update: OK, I just updated my profile photo.
I edited the Exposure letter so that it now includes all REAL names and numbers.....

Just a quick question, if I get blocked by him, I should just set up another account, right? (and upload the photo)
Having the finger on the button, but not quite getting the never to do it just yet....

It doesn't matter if he blocks you. You need to send out PM's to the people on your selected list.

Launch the nuke!! just do it. For cripes sake, he didn't have a hard time finding the nerve to have an affair with a married woman. Why wouldn't you have the nerve TO DO THE RIGHT THING??

Quit acting like you are doing something wrong. You have done nothing wrong and are not obliged to hide this filthy rat's dirty secret. He is the one who did something wrong.

Not sure what you're asking. If you already have his friends' contact info C&P'd it doesn't matter if he blocks you or not. Or are you asking something altogether different?

Do you see any relatives on loser boys facebook that could be a relative to his BW?

Even if he blocks you can still send the meassages to the people on his friends list. You made a copy so you have the names, correct? Give a minute between messages so Facebook doesn't stop you for flooding.

Hit the botton and expose ALREADY!!

I guess it just means that you have to search for his friends first before sending (an extra step), right?

I finally got the nerve!! Thanks!

FB Exposure in Progress!!

Not an extra step, but the first step to FB exposure because you can bet your last dollar he'll shut it down the minute he realizes what you are up to.

Way to go!!

All you do is copy and paste his contacts into a WORD doc and save. Then go to the list, hold down the "ctrl" button and click on the link. It will take you right to their fb page.

That way, even if he shuts down his page, you can continue to send out PMs without interruption.

You will get supporting messages and you will get criticism. Just expect both. If someone chastises you, simply thank them for their opinion or ignore them. Most of all, do not let it bother you. You are not doing this to get approval, but to expose that rat fink OM and get word to his wife and his parents. You don't need the approval of crapwits anyway. So don't let any derogatory opinions interfere with your plan, ok?

Thanks. Got it. The first time I did it, I got only text, but I got the links this time.

Now about 35% done.

Agree! Nicely done JD!

Exposure is done ... around 600 people. I did 4 to 5 people in a quick spurt, and then waited 1 to 2 minutes before trying again. That was the only way to get the messages out to that number of people.
I will share the results here for everyone's future reference!

Thanks again!!

And I just got BLOCKED! DONE!!!!

Good job JD. Now just sit back and be the rockstar husband in Plan A to your WW and let exposure do it's work. To the people who will tell you negative comments don't let it get to you, because there will be those.

LMAO!!! 600?????? I almost asked you earlier how many you intended to expose to, but for some reason didn't.

A warrior is born!

I completely rescind my comments about growing a pair. You've grown a pair that Godzilla would be proud to own!

Well done, JD! Well done!

Congratulations!

Seriously, congratulations!

Update 12 hours after exposure:

*Out of the 600 messages I sent, I have already received two supportive reply messages.
*I have also received 10+ phone calls from an "unknown phone number" (not displayed), and so I have not picked up. Because this person does not leave a message or display their number, I assume that it is the OM.
*After the exposure, I was a little restless and unable to sleep (as you can imagine since it took me so long to build up the nerve). I tried to avoid the topic, but my WW pursued it, and I finally told her the truth about the exposure, but I explained that it was necessary, and that the OM had probably never ever dealt with the consequences of his actions ... until now. She was upset, called me "cold and calculating" and "vengeful". I justified it, but I also told her that I would not do it again.

She is afraid that he will try something vengeful in response. We'll see.....

Well I'd say exposure was a bullseye so far. The angrier the WS becomes the better the exposure.

Just say, "I am so sorry you are upset.. Can I get you a potato chip?"
And I will do whatever it takes to protect my M.

Don't make promises like this because it can erode some of the trust and honesty you need to build on, going forward. You don't have to promise you'll never do it again - just promise her that you will ALWAYS do whatever it takes to protect your marriage. She needs to understand that she's good to go as long as she is a faithful wife. She also needs to know that you will not stand by idly if she chooses to be unfaithful; that there will be consequences and repercussions for her adultery.

Cold and calculating? A wayward would call it that. When she comes out of her fog she'll understand that you are a warrior for your marriage! What wife wouldn't want that in her husband??

Good job, JD.

ANSWER THIS CALL. It might be the OMW!!!


That is a very bad message to give to a wayward. By telling her you think you did something wrong, you have handed her a bullet with which to shoot you with! Don't tell her you regret doing it! OWN your actions.

Exposing an affair is not "cold and calculating." Having an affair with a man's wife is cruel, cold and calculating.

She is afraid that he will try something vengeful in response. We'll see..... [/quote]

JapanDude are you going to take control over what goes on in your own home or what? Why are you afraid to answer the phone?

She was upset, called me "cold and calculating" and "vengeful".

Did you ask her why she cares more for POSOM's sensitivities than yours? She's almost gone, J-Dude. You'd better step up your Plan A actions.

Update (5/3/2012)

OVERALL
I think that we have finally turned the corner. The exposure on April 29 lit a fire and caused quite a bit of tension, but things have quieted down, and we are now moving forward. She has started accepting the responsibility for her actions, and we are both trying to meet each other's emotional needs better. This has made Plan A a lot easier. I don't know how long I could have done Plan A without a least some positive results from her.

SURVEILLANCE
I am still doing surveillance, but my WW suspects this and has avoided computer use, she said. The only other ways of contact are using her cellphone (I have already registered for a detailed call log) and her iPod (Internet enabled).

CONTACT WITH OW'S WIFE
Because of the big splash that my FB exposure made, two days ago, the OW contacted me. Word of the affair DID get to her because of my actions, but she wanted to keep it quiet. I explained that I needed to do this to ensure that her husband would observe the "NO CONTACT", which brings me to....

WHY EXPOSURE WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO
OK, everyone here was right about the FB exposure. It was 100% the right thing to do. Still, it DID create tension between me and my WW. Also, like everyone here said, timing is important. The exposure can also be construed as "revenge" if it is not done close to the discovery date.
It was right for my case because the OM thinks that he can fly into town and hook up with former girlfriends. He weasels his way into this by saying that he "just wants to keep in touch", is "just friends", and "just wants to see you" -- my WW fell into this trap. Even if my WW promises no contact, I have NO guarantee that he would. THAT IS WHY EXPOSURE WAS NECESSARY for me. It enables me to ensure that he knows that there are consequences to his actions. I messaged about 600 of his 911 FB friends (particularly targeting his family, women, people with family, and his work contacts -- he did this while on a 3-month work stint).
He knows that I am watching my WW's computer. He knows if he contacts her by FB, I can view his friends. He knows if he e-mails her, I will expose to his family and friends.

As I explained to my WW, if I did not expose, who would stop him? His friends? His mother? His wife? NO ONE!!
That's why exposure was necessary. And if it affects his work and family -- so much the better. Actions have consequences!

Thanks again to everyone. Although I cannot speak for everyone's case, exposure was 110% the right thing for me!
Also, instead of sending the 600 FB messages at 1 minute intervals (=15+ hours), I sent bunches of 4 to 5 messages at once, waited 1 to 2 minutes, and then sent another bunch of 4 to 5 messages. (This took about 6 hours with breaks.) No problems!

Thank you everyone, and wish us luck!

Thanks for that update. She may have bought a phone solely to conduct damage control/continue her affair, so be on the lookout for that sort of thing.

And it's good to know about FB! That can really help when we tell other people to expose via FB.

JD you're a MB warrior.

Too bad for OM's BW being in denial, but glad you got the message to her.

Wow 600!!! I think that may be a MB record!! Woo Hoo! Anyone??

I hope other BS read your thread and see the importance of Dr. Harley's plan and exposure.

Hats off to you.

WOW 600 I take my hat off to you. I'm glad you listened to the advice given here. The vets and those with more experience than us newbies know MB principles and their intentions are to help save our marriages and help us recover personally.... they've walked in our shoes they know what we feel and understand the rollercoaster.

Exposure is never done for 'revenge'. Exposure is done to enable you to recover your marriage. Don't confuse the two.

The critical question is "what is your WW doing to recover this marriage?"

Well, although I contacted 600 of the 911 FB friends on the OM's personal FB page, he also has a work-related Photography FB page with 750 friends. Assuming that about half of them are already the same as his personal page or unavailable for messaging, should I go for the 1000 mark? (600 + 375)

Personally, I think that I am ready to move to the next step (Plan A at full power), but I have been pleasantly surprised at the positive effects of this exposure. This morning, my WW said that my exposure will probably keep him from contacting her again and grudgingly admitted that it was probably a good thing.

Good job at affair killing!! The next step is not Plan A, but Recovery. The end of the affair should be demonstrated by a no contact letter to scumboy that is written by her, approved by you and sent together.

The next steps for recovery are here: Requirements for Recovery

here


[from SAA, pg 58]

OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely, XXXXX

JapanDude. Great update.

How exactly is WW starting to accept responsibility?

Has she committed to NC for LIFE and handwritten a no contact letter to OM which she gives to you to approve and send? Here are some examples:NC Letters Make sure she does not have any foggy closure type wording. Sticking to the template is best.


Has WW agreed to EP's to affair proof your marriage?

1. no opposite sex friendships
2. complete transparency of her life including phones, computers, passwords, etc ( don't let on about your secret snooping methods) But she needs to agree to 100% transparency.
3. no more social networks unless it is a joint account.
4. no overnights apart
5. Policy of joint agreement
6. commitment to a MB recovery program
7. NC for LIFE with OM and she will inform you if he tries to make contact.
8. whatever else your situation may need to protect your marriage

Are you getting 20 hrs per week of UA time to rebuild the romantic love in your marriage?

Dang. ML beats me every time.

I need to learn to type with more than one finger.

We hafta watch that rascal, Brainhurts........She beats me all the time!

Haha. I learned from the best.

MelodyLane:

Thanks for the great, informative replies. OK, I will not do any more exposure (it was fun, but quite nerve-wracking too). I have so many questions....

RECOVERY LETTER
When I discovered the affair two weeks ago, she hurried wrote a "no contact" e-mail to him, showed it to me, and sent it. BUT, because I was watching her computer, I saw that she set up another e-mail account, and e-mailed him privately to say "Thank you for everything". She later admitted this deception.
To me, this completely voids the "no-contact" letter, don't you think?
Interestingly, he sent a reply to her indicating that I knew her passwords, which blew my cover. She was open about this, but she also wanted to know whether it was true.
--> Does that mean I need to get her to write another letter? What about an apology letter to his wife?

Pokerface:

This is a great point. Basically, before even seeing these rules, she had already agreed to all the points EXCEPT for "no overnights apart". She is taking a hula class, and they are having an event several hours away, which required an overnight stay. To be honest, I was a little uptight about her spending an overnight away, but I just didn't say. Thanks to you, I will now give this first priority, and stick to my guns. "Consequences of her actions", right? Is this worth having a large fight over? (I suspect your answer is yes....)

I am looking closely at the other rules too. Great stuff! I can see how these are based on tried-and-tested experience.
I can't thank everyone enough! I will still fight these battles, and yes, I am working harder at meeting her emotional needs too.

JD,
What was your condition if she broke NC
What did she say about the new email account?

I didn't give any condition. I just accepted her promise at face value. But I did kick her out of the house after I found out that she had met him not once (as she said at the time), but THREE times, and had a physical relationship. In fact, it was shortly after I kicked her out that I started this thread.
Normally, what conditions can I make? Separation?
As someone on this thread mentioned, ANY contact means that the affair is still going on.

WHY SHE SENT IT
She said that she needed to say "Thank you" to bring closure. I guess that means that she just could not end the affair with the rough tone of the original "No Contact" letter.

Wow she's still very foggy. Some WW have a longer time to come out of the fog than most WH.

You tell her " I will not live in a M with three people and if we D I will not play Mr. Nice guy" You make it clear you will not make it easy and have a "friendly" divorce.

She will thank you later when she comes down from her high and out of the fog.

She needs to understand she doesn't need closure. Closure are for cabinets and doors.

Contact resets the clock.

You could also ask for a poly.

Don't threaten anything you aren't going to act on.

Keep verifying NC. False recoveries can be more painful than the first Dday.

Actually, the "additional e-mail" happened two weeks ago, and so I think that they have had no contact since then.

But if she does not accept the "no overnights" condition, am I OK in threatening separation and divorce?

Yes. No over nights is a precaution that Dr. Harley recommends and insists on.
Read this Requirements for Recovery

These are some of your conditions
End all contact WITH OM for life
Complete transparency.
Extraordinary precautions
No over nights

Read this What to do with an Unfaithful wife

"This is what it will take to keep you in the marriage." No fights JapanDude. Cool and calm like James Bond. Can you go with her to the hula event and drive her home yourself?

Why does OM say you have all the passwords and what does it matter anyways because she should have already given them to you when she agreed to be transparent in her life.

Also this Recovery After an Affair

BrainHurts:

Thanks. I got it. I will first praise her efforts at openness and to move forward over the past week, and I will say, "But there is one more additional thing that we need to move ahead in our marriage."

Pokerface:

Your image of James Bond is great. I can do that.
About the hula event, actually, that WAS the original plan! But guess what happened? I was barely able to work over the past three weeks (I'm freelance), and my wife and I shuttled back between Tokyo and here due to our temporary separation. And so, we are short on money (nothing disastrous, but we no longer have any disposable income). Basically, this is one indirect impact of the affair.
In a way, I think that she needs to accept that we cannot do this event BECAUSE of the affair.

So how much UA time are you getting a week?

And what RC are you doing together? You need to do the things that you did when you were first M and dating. You need to court her again.

No lovebusters. None nada. You need to fill up her lovebank.

What are her top EN?

I agree. JapanDude... this is really important...do not engage in any fights or AO (angry outbursts).

Do you have the book SAA? If not, start reading everything you can here beginning with the how to survive infidelity link on the right of this page ------>>

Work is slow now, and so we are getting about 2 to 3 hours in the evenings after the kids are in bed. Plus, during the day (I work at home), we have been going on long walks to the park around noontime (about 1 hour).
It will be tough to keep this up once work gets busy again, but I will try.

She likes regular "skinship", saying "I love you" in 1001 different ways, and me doing little things like making her tea. In terms of time and effort, these are actually quite easy and reasonable, and so I have been working 100% at doing this for her. So far, so good. My DD12 has even said that I have been doing a good job.

Skinship? Is this a fancy word for SF?

Admiration? Check this out The Most Important Emotional Needs and let me know.

I'm very concerned about your UA time when you go back to work. What is your plan of action to keep your UA time at 20 until you maintain that love?

KWIM?

By "skinship", I just mean physical displays of affection.
From wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_intimacy):

BrainHurts:

You are right about the 20 hours of UA, but I will make it a priority.

pokerface:

Anyway, I broached the subject of "no overnights apart". We had quite a heated discussion. In the end, she agreed to follow it in principle, but she also pointed out several exceptions -- if one of our parents suddenly fell ill (hers in Tokyo, mine in U.S.), if she gave birth in a hospital, and of course, her "competition hula" class. She would not budge on this issue.
Some of her points are valid. All of her weekly classes are geared toward this competition, and so not participating in the competition would be like a basketball player practicing but not playing in a game. Since the competition is still 4 months away, we still have time to save up and go as a family.
In return, she promised not to return to the Tokyo area alone "for several years" and the same for other overnight trips.
Still, forcing her to give up her competition would be, in her words "taking away her best chance to make my best friends and have fun after our move".
I bent on this issue, and since I am freelance, I told her that I would work extra to make this possible, but I also needed her full cooperation and support. She seems willing to do that. I know it's not quite the best solution, but it's the best that I could do, and she seems sincere.

So the plan is to just affair proof your marriage for a few years? What about after that? Will it be ok to risk your marriage after a few years?

My thoughts too exactly. But she would not budge.
I guess the only way I could get her to relent would be to promise that we would visit Tokyo (where her family still stays) once a year or so.
Then, there would be NO NEED for her to go alone.

JD, extraordinary precautions to avoid an affair are not negotiable. I would let her know that. You can go together or she doesn't go. She is not taking this very seriously and I am concerned.

She says that I am using her past to "control" or "punish" her. She nearly threatened to leave over this issue, and so the question is how far do I push it? I did indicate that I was not pleased with her partial acceptance, but we have sort of stopped there....

Whether your marriage ends up a success or failure will depend almost entirely on her willingness and ability to make radical changes. Her lifestyle must become absolutely transparent, holding nothing back. She is in no position to negotiate when it comes to extraordinary precautions, because those precautions are designed to prevent another affair and help you feel safe. She must also meet your emotional needs in a way that until now she has failed. Unless she makes a 180 degree turn in her approach to what it means to be a wife, your marriage won't recover, it will be a crippled version of your pre-affair marriage. Extraordinary precautions are not negotiable.

Oh, and if she plays the "you are controlling me" card , tell her she is a grown woman and you do not have that kind of control over her. The only thing you can control are your own boundaries. And these extraordinary precautions are what it will take to keep you in this marriage.

JapanDude. This is exactly why there can be no overnights aparts. You must eliminate all the conditions that made the affair possible.

Don't engage in heated discussions about this. She knows you will cave when she gets angry. Don't engage. You are cool and calm like James Bond.

I hope you were able to keep from laughing. I hope you realize this is just a diversion.

To recover, you need to have completely integrated lives going forward.

How much time does WW spend with Hula training? This is time away from her family. There are many people here where competitive sports was the seed for an affair.

My thoughts too exactly. But she would not budge.

EXCUSE ME ALL TO HELL!!!!

Exactly which of the two of you did the "horizontal cha-cha" with a third party? She has ZERO say in recovery necessities, JD.

*** Gloves-off time ***
ng jd

Your entire problem revolves around the fact that somewhere along the line you checked your testicles in a safe-deposit box, and she's holding the only key!

Let me ask you this: Is there ANY set of actions she would have to take for you to basically say "Sayonara"? Get out of your head the fallacy that you have to be married to this proven cheater. She knows you're too cowed by the idea of NOT being married to her to EVER take actions to end the marriage, regardless of what she might do.

Here's how to approach the "nights apart" situation. (You might want to practice in front of a mirror before going live in front of WW.)

"Sweetheart, the FIRST time you spend time away from me overnight, expect a divorce petition (the one I should already have hit you with) at your dinner plate when you eventually get back! More tea?"

Man up, amigo!

How far do you push it? It's non-negotiable. The only person pushing is your WW. Stand up, yank up your pants, and tell her that this is how it's going to be.

First, you guys are right about me being weak. It's just that I did not want to break up the marriage when it seemed we were moving forward.
In her defense, she has been open about everything else.

We talked about it again, and she made some good points.
*Over the past few years, the only overnights apart have been my trips to the U.S. to visit family (about a week or two), and her short trips (less than a week) with her mother to Hawaii and Taiwan. Among my non-Japanese friends, it is actually quite common for the U.S. spouse to visit family in the U.S. alone or with the older kids only because of the high cost of air travel and difficulty of traveling with small kids. The "no overnights apart" rule would no longer allow this.
*For the upcoming hula competition, she offered a compromise. If we are unable to save the money to go as a family, she said that she could ask her mother to attend.
*She said that it is not a case of her "not trying enough". She said that she will have to work hard to show her face again to my parents (who know about the affair), she promised complete openness, and never to lie to me again. It's only been about 10 days, but so far, it looks like she has kept that promise.

In a nutshell, I guess, how do I explain that "overnights" are no longer OK when they were OK before? By mentioning the affair, I am just "bringing up the past" and "not letting it go". I could say that the conditions allowing the affair were "secrecy" + "overnight", and just eliminating "secrecy" is not enough at prevention. Is my reasoning right?!?

Compromise is NOT POJA.

You need to both be enthusiastic about the HULA competition decision or she doesn't go.
POJA

JD's approach:

For the upcoming hula competition...If we are unable to save the money to go as a family, she said that she could ask her mother to attend.

NG's approach:

For the upcoming hula competition, if we are unable to go as a family, YOU AIN'T GOING! Given your documented inability to respect your vows, the last thing we need is you shaking your cooter in a grass skirt, just for POSOM to show up with a pair of hedge-clippers!

Wanna bet on which would be more effective?

Yes, but am I willing to risk creating a deep fissure on this issue? She could walk out the door....

"In a nutshell, I guess, how do I explain that "overnights" are no longer OK when they were OK before? By mentioning the affair, I am just "bringing up the past" and "not letting it go". I could say that the conditions allowing the affair were "secrecy" + "overnight", and just eliminating "secrecy" is not enough at prevention. Is my reasoning right?!?"

You explain that in affair proofing your marriage, overnight travel has been eliminated. Of course you mention the affair when it comes to establishing extraordinary precautions.

As far as the hula competition solution taking her mother is NOT a solution. The rule is never spend the night apart. If her hula competition is more important than your marriage then you have some serious problems.

Stop lowering the bar, JD. You aren't going to recover your marriage unless you get serious about this.

Are you serious? She thinks so little of your marriage that she would leave over a hula competition? Then she should go because you have nothing here to save. This is a lost cause.

If my spouse thought so little of my marriage that he would leave over some stupid event, I would pack his bag. And that is exactly what you should be doing.

Since you're having a difficult time learning from your own experience of your wife's affair.

From here
Coping with Infidelity:How Affairs should End

OVERNIGHT STAYS
It's frustrating to get stuck on this one point when we have made so much progress. More discussion on "overnight stays":
*She said that IF canceling this event would mean regaining my full trust, then she would do it, but she knows it won't.
*She said that she wanted the whole family to come from the start (true), but it was just the financial reasons that kept us away (true).
*She said that it is relatively close (2 hours by bullet train), and she thinks that it is definitely "doable".
*She will make no more overnight plans in the future, partly because she expects to become pregnant in the coming months... (see below)

MY ONLY LEVERAGE?
Because our youngest turns 2 years old this summer, we were thinking of making another baby from this spring. Despite having the affair at the beginning of last month (April), she still intended to start our baby-making activities as planned. Based on what she has told me, her last cycle ended at the beginning of April, and so there is NO WAY should could be having the OM's baby (she also said they had protection). I cut off all baby-making activities once I found out about the affair, but there is still a chance that she is pregnant (by me, if she told the truth, or by him if she lied about the cycle). I'll know for sure in about a week. (It sounds like the Jerry Springer show, I know! )
Nonetheless, I am seriously considering "withholding the seed" so to speak. No more baby-making until I am 100% sure that I can trust her. As everyone here knows, an affair not only destroys your trust with the WW, but all our future plans, dreams, and hopes with my WW all come crashing to the ground in an instant. Although she is in her mid-30s and our window of opportunity is rapidly closing, I feel strongly that I must make a stand here.
Still, it also pains me that her indiscretion could impact our family this way.

I cannot claim mind-reading powers. However, if the cynical NG's mind were to be transposed into a WW's body, here's how this might play out:

"Well, I've almost entirely gotten him afraid of firing the "D" gun for whatever damage I care to inflict on him and our marriage. One more child ought to seal the deal on his D-aversion permanently! (Of course, a pregnancy would probably impact my competitive hula-dancing, but sacrifices must be made.)"

Uh-huh. And other than that pesky serial murder habit he was caught up in, Ted Bundy was a pretty nice guy. You're not really going to comfort delude yourself with this, are you?? She has shown remorse only when it works to her benefit. A truly remorseful wayward would be agreeing to give up hula dancing entirely if that's what it took. But they weren't okay before! You just didn't realize it! Now you know, friend. You are trying to recover a marriage that has been damaged by adultery - the status quo needs to be changed. This is one more consequence of her adultery. That's just how it is. The sooner she gets that, the easier your recovery will be.

Of course it won't regain your full trust. It will take much more than that. But if you are to stay in this marriage, there can be no more overnight travel apart. PERIOD!

Stop debating!

It will take 2 to 5 years for her to earn your trust, *IF* she behaves in a trustworthy manner, and her insistance on traveling does not garner trust. So babymaking is OFF the table. And *IF* you ever start recovery, that will take a couple of years. Since your wife won't agree to extraordinary precautions I doubt your marriage WILL recover, though.

This is off to a very bad start and I have my doubts. You are allowing a drunk driver [your wife] to drive the car out of the ditch. And guess what? Your marriage is still in the ditch! Here you are debating about the most basic precaution, overnight travel! That is AMAZING chutzpah! That is like allowing the rapist to make all the rules for recovery for his rape victim. Seriously??

You are on the WRONG PATH, my friend, and if you don't get this back on track your marriage will not recover. You are at a critical fork in the road and if you don't take back the wheel, you are staying in the ditch. You need to MAN UP and take control of your marriage. You have to drive your marriage out of the ditch. Do you understand??

You need to line it out like this with her:

What she is basically admitting, JD is that she isnt willing to take the very tiny first small step of staying home to even BEGIN to regain your trust.

She is flat-out admitting she won't even put on her hiking boots never mind climb the mountain of recovery. It will take a LOT of these tiny actions to reassure you - and she won't even do one!

She would much rather you suck up the pain and doubt and not ask for her to do any work to reassure you.

A wayward who is still wayward DEMANDS that you trust them, instead of doing the work to EARN trust.

They cant be bothered doing the work.
They cant be bothered being trustworthy

Its so much easier to demand it - or leave.

She's a renter in the relationship. A renter wont bother fixing up the relationship, because they aren't committed long term. Even when they did the damage. She will always have one foot out the door unless she is allowed to just what she pleases, without considering you.

If the idea of hula dancing pleases her, she wont consider your feelings on the matter.

And if the idea of another affair pleases her, she wont consider you either.

A refusal to POJA is relationship cancer.

She needs a 180 degree attitude change or to be put out of the way somehwere she cant hurt you.

(Sigh) I can see that all of you are right.
I continue to look for positive signs -- she agreed to everything else except "no overnights", she accepted "no overnights" in principle, she has become transparent, she freely contacts me whenever she goes out, etc.

Perhaps I am in denial. Although I have not given in on this point, it is shaping up to be a long battle indeed.
Like all of you are saying, it may just be a matter of time until things really break down....
But I will keep trying. Does that just mean that I am still in Plan A? In her own way, she is also still trying....

Bringing this to a head will likely send her back to her mother's place. The reality is that I am not quite ready to send her out the door, but maybe, after a few more months of this, I might.
Hopefully, my next update will be more upbeat.
Thanks so far, everyone.

Does this mean that she cannot go out to eat with her hula friends after practice? She asked me this. I was open to it, but sometimes, they stay out until 3 AM or so. This does worry me, to tell you the truth.
Or do I just ask her to call me, or check up on her?
This could also be a deal-breaker.....

When you can say just the part I put in bold you'll know she's getting on board with recovery. Until then, she is a wayward who is trying to manipulate your conditions. If you allow this in the short run (ie, by allowing her to set the terms for an overnight at some hula contest) you will be opening the doors for further manipulation. Don't allow that to even get started.

If agreeing to your very basic precautions will send her to her mother's place, then you have already lost. You don't have the power to "send her out the door." If she chooses to leave because she is asked to observe very basic precautions that are designed to protect you from another affair, then you are not in recovery. If she chooses a hula event over your marriage, then you don't have a marriage.

See, most marriages do not ever recover from affairs. They might stay together, but they limp along in a crippled state of the pre-affair marriage. Those marriages are plagued with DEEP RESENTMENT. I see you headed this way because you won't man up and enforce the necessary boundaries for recovery. Your marriage won't recover unless you follow this plan.

If you want her to be serious about recovery, then *YOU* have to get serious. And you are not serious, my friend. She knows you are not serious. You are just playing around here and trying to appease her by allowing her to set the conditions for recovery. BIG MISTAKE.

You need to bring this to a head NOW and get this on the right track. Stop messing around with the most BASIC EPs if you are really serious.

This is getting more ridiculous by the minute. I am not going to bother responding to this. If you REFUSE to follow basic instructions, there is nothing we can do to help you.

JapanDude. Your WW wants to act like a single person. That is the deal breaker.

Are these other hula dancers married? Did they know she was having an affair? I know you were reluctant to expose and this is now the result. She does not have to redeem herself to anyone but you...and you are a pushover. She is free to carry on her single lifestyle and paint you as controlling.


Just another day.

Oh yes she is trying. I find your descriptions of her very trying.

Thing will not break down in 'a few months'. They broke down long ago. They broke down when you accepted she had the right to treat you as cruelly as she pleased. When she decided that you were lucky merely to sniff her perfume in you sleep at 3am when she came home.

You don't have a marriage - you only have the illusion of one.

You don't have a wife. You have a transient guest who only cares about what she can get from you.

You should feel absolutely no fear about losing this marriage - it was lost long ago.

Can you ask her to make you happy without fear? No

Can you tell her your fears, have her take them seriously and then caringly act to resolve your fears? No.

Do her actions caise you fear? Yes.

Like I said, you don't have a marriage. But you do have vows and it is your job to do your best to insist she either live up to them or explain you'll have to leave. If she doesn't, shell be a temporary misery to any man until she gets bored and leaves.

I'm not sure what this 'few months' deadline is. She needs to change her view of you as someone who will accept crumbs yesterday,

Women don't like doormats. They don't stay with doormats.

Give her that list of EPs in writing. Tell her what you expect.

Tell her 'This is what it will take to keep me in the marriage'

And mean it.

You don't have to leave immediately,(plan A for men is six months) but you do have to make the prospect real to her.

Perhaps I am in denial.

Well, no, since you just admitted we out here are correct in our advice and tactics.

Here's where you are struggling: You ain't a S.O.B. by nature. To my knowledge the two fastest recovering BHs here in the last two years were born-n-bred SOBs - mirrormirror and yours truly.

MM beat the bloody CRAP out of the POSOM, in front of his WW. I came within a hair's-breadth of committing the infanticide of POSOM's 11-year-old son. You don't seem to have it within you to understand that you now have to play a split personality - the loving, EN-supplying hubby on a day-to-day basis, and a stern unwavering SOB on matters of your recovery demands. She needs to have limits placed on her, and you have to be the one to do that.

Most BHs choose not to do so, unnecessarily delaying their recovery.

In other words, you need to be man enough to put her in her place when needed! Man up, my friend!!

You must be famous or something, because everyone keeps telling me about you. So I looked up your thread. Just FYI, it brought me comfort to see another BS struggling so much to get up the guts to expose - second guessing, analyzing, all the things I've been doing.

You rock! Hope things are going okay for you:) Thanks for the inspiring example.

Hey, JD, getting ready to expose tonight. OW has 400 or so "friends." So you sent 4-5 messages in quick succession, then waited 1-2 minutes in between, right? And when you said you just got blocked, was that by OM, or by fb? What time of day did you do this, just out of curiosity? Thanks!

JD as a FWW I can only reinforce what many have said to you. Your WW MUST be prepared to drop the Hula sport and over night or late nights out if it had ANY part in her cheating. That includes if it gave her the opportunity to sneak off and cheat on you as a good cover to the family or you. Yes even a indirect connection.

In any event time away is not a good thing for your M especially right now. If you can't go then she doesn't, its pretty simple.

What your WW is doing right now is trying negotiate a way to lessen the consequences to herself if she is not trying to set up opportunities to retain contact with the OM.

If you go along with this negotiation and fail to agree (POJA) to set some firm boundaries.... then I firmly believe she WILL cheat again because NOTHING in your marriage will have significantly changed... the circumstances that allowed the cheating will mostly remain.

If your WW is serious about recovering the M she will be prepared to go to "extensive" actions to demonstrate this. For instance, my work at the time allowed me to spend time after hours out drinking and partying with the mainly divorced 'girls' .... I gave up not only the girls night out but also left my job. Not just moved to another office... I left the whole place and got a new employer. I removed one of the factors which allowed me to cheat. You do this in other areas as well to help affair proof the M.

Your WW comments about 'bringing up the past" are pure crappola. This is no more than the "lets just pretend it never happened and play happy families" which I think every WS man or woman has tried to get away with... you do realise that ??

DO NOT AGREE TO THIS.

Your M will NOT work until you have worked your way through the entire process and part of that IS discussing what happened .... sometimes in very painful and humiliating detail... because as my DH said... I want to know WHAT I am forgiving. my God it was hard, lets not pretend otherwise but it had to be done.

And yes like every other WS I also tried to wriggle my way out of it as well. It's like we all use a manual for "Idiot WS"...... same old same old. I predict one of the next things your WW says is "but it will only hurt you" or words to that effect when you insist on talking about it.

Some men needs lots of details some don't.. but you need to keep asking until YOU feel its all you need.. that you have the truth... its not up to your WW to decide that.. its YOU.

JD you mentioned that you lost a child.. I am so sorry to hear that and I know how painful that is having also lost a child not long before my cheating. Were they related? Yes in some ways they were in my case. No excuse though. Just another factor to address. Painful one of course.

The death of a child not only changes each of you as a spouse but also as a parent forever. I firmly believe it permanently alters a couple�s marriage, and I did not handle it well.

For quite a while, grief is likely to sap you and your partner of energy to solve problems, to talk about things to think things through well, and to come to terms with what has happened.

For weeks, months, or even years, you may feel that you are in some kind of holding pattern, just trying to do the bare minimum to get along. And in that mind set couples often drift apart and become vulnerable to affairs.
It is not uncommon for spouses to hold some suppressed feelings of blame against the other spouse which left unresolved eat away at the M. I wonder if you both have some work there to do there post M recovery?

However right now you need to work on the M and be prepared to set some boundaries for the M to work.... and never threaten some action as a consequence that you will not do.

Listen to the advice you are getting.... if you feel it needs further development then spend the money to ring Dr Harley ... its far cheaper then any divorce.

If you wish to have the best chance to recover your M then follow the MB plans not your own. You only deviate from them when Dr H or one of his team tells you too because their experience and knowledge is better than your feelings and emotions in this fight.

Hope you will continue to be strong and be prepared for the hard task ahead. Just don't get side tracked and do not allow your emotions and fears to rule you.

keep fighting the good fight JD