Marriage Builders®
Posted By: helpfordad POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/12/14 09:15 PM
Ok, in year 4 of Recovery, and an issue has arisen...trying to POJA/Brainstorm in a healthy way, but worried it's going to unravel.

In sum: My W had a workplace affair in our home county, county X, with a POS who lives in county Y, a county over from us, who worked at W's location in county X until I exposed and he was fired.

W currently works in our county, county X, some 20+ miles where POSOM lives (assuming he still does) in county Y.

W has just been offered a job -- in the field she just earned her degree in, a better workplace setting, more salary/benefits -- a top notch job offer.

However, it is located inside county Y, some 7+ miles from where the POSOM lives (assuming he still does).

When asked how I feel about it, my answer has been:

"I am not enthusiastic about you working in that county Y, and I am not enthusiastic about you working closer to where OM lives."

W is then getting upset, saying I can trust her, and asking if I will "be supportive if she decides to take the offer."

I think I'm being O&H and anwering correctly, calmly about how I feel about it.

I've suggested brainstorming solutions:

1. Move - neither of us are in agreement with a move at this time; we both agree, knowing MB principles, that this is not feasible at this time, and are aware of the decision we are making not moving right now.

2. W remains at the job she's at now -- unhappy professionally, less salary/benefits, but closer to home in county X?

3.?

4.?


I am not having an AO, but I am personally frustrated on how to express that I support her need and desire to grow professionally, use the degree she just earned, but on the other hand not enthusiastic about her doing those 2 things in county Y, OM's county of residence. If it were an offer in our home county, county X, I'd be jumping for joy...but no offers have come from institutions in our county.

I feel she makes it like I am the one who is hindering her professional growth becasue I don't 'trust' her, and that I am getting blamed for making her 'suffer' for staying in a job she's not happy in because I won't 'support her' taking this new job in county Y.

Is my thinking irrational? Am I wrong for not feeling more 'supportive' or ecstatic for this, even though on paper it might look like a winner?

Any suggestions/assistance with brainstorming/negotiating would be most appreciated.

Thank you!
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 02:15 AM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I've suggested brainstorming solutions:

1. Move - neither of us are in agreement with a move at this time; we both agree, knowing MB principles, that this is not feasible at this time, and are aware of the decision we are making not moving right now.

2. W remains at the job she's at now -- unhappy professionally, less salary/benefits, but closer to home in county X?

3.?

4.?


I am not having an AO, but I am personally frustrated on how to express that I support her need and desire to grow professionally, use the degree she just earned, but on the other hand not enthusiastic about her doing those 2 things in county Y, OM's county of residence. If it were an offer in our home county, county X, I'd be jumping for joy...but no offers have come from institutions in our county.

I feel she makes it like I am the one who is hindering her professional growth becasue I don't 'trust' her, and that I am getting blamed for making her 'suffer' for staying in a job she's not happy in because I won't 'support her' taking this new job in county Y.

Is my thinking irrational? Am I wrong for not feeling more 'supportive' or ecstatic for this, even though on paper it might look like a winner?

Any suggestions/assistance with brainstorming/negotiating would be most appreciated.

Thank you!

Your wife's reaction to your feelings is unbelievably disrespectful. The only thing worse than her disrespect and thoughtlessness would be if you allowed her to bully you into a reluctant agreement or into capitulation. Don't do that to your marriage because if you allow her to bully you into a reluctant agreement, she will be rewarded and that will embolden her to use that tactic in the future.

Just keep negotiating until you find a solution about which you are BOTH enthusiastic. That will probably mean she finds a job in a place far away from the OM's county.

Don't capitulate and don't reward bully behavior.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 02:27 AM
At this time, I don't feel like I'm being bullied into any agreement.

And I know she is emotional about this for several reasons, namely 3 years of grad school for job (finally) that matches her degree, wanting to actually enjoy her job, and most importantly, a strong desire to get her life 'back on track', I think, as professionally as we've gotten our marriage on track.

I have wondered to myself how realistic I can be in my lack of enthusiasm for her working in location A versus location B, since, at last knowledge, the POS being a union worker could theoretically be assigned anywhere in the area....so, feels like playing whack-a-mole sometimes.

The odds may be relatively the same that he could show up at a workplace in our home county as easy as he could in his...I just feel that it increases the odds (the risk? is that what I fear?) of contact if W is working closer to his residence than further away. But does that really mean anything since the A began in our home county, anyway?

Is this possible to negotiate with the right EPs...or not at all?

Just thinking out loud...
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 02:29 AM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I am not having an AO, but I am personally frustrated on how to express that I support her need and desire to grow professionally, use the degree she just earned, but on the other hand not enthusiastic about her doing those 2 things in county Y, OM's county of residence. If it were an offer in our home county, county X, I'd be jumping for joy...but no offers have come from institutions in our county.

Did she have your ENTHUSIASTIC AGREEMENT to apply for a job in the OM's county? Sounds like some independent behavior on her part.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 02:38 AM
Mel,

Yes, I guess in a way I agreed, because I didn't really think there's be an offer, maybe. She absolutely asked if I was ok with her at least just going through the interview, I thought it could be helpful getting her interview practice again, networking for other jobs, etc.

And I want for her to be professionally happy, and get back on track.

I mean, she really has worked the MB program..at times getting me on board with principles (POJA, getting rid of AOs, maintaining our UA time) when I started slacking.

Sometimes I don't know if I'm being irrational in my thinking because, are the odds really greater for contact ANYWHERE in this area (until we move), this county or that county, since the POS is a bit of a 'free agent' with the ability to have a GC assign him to any job.

And I hate to bring this up...but sometimes I wonder if this all goes back to the NC Letter, that me not insisting she send one, skipping this important step, has retained some seed of doubt or distrust in me, feelings that I should've long since processed and been done with?

Is it more worthwhile to allow her to grow, and feel good about herself, professionally, as much as she feels good about our M now..but have very, very tight EPs, a plan, in place should the worst happen (contact)?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 02:39 AM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
At this time, I don't feel like I'm being bullied into any agreement.

This is a bully tactic:
Quote
I feel she makes it like I am the one who is hindering her professional growth becasue I don't 'trust' her, and that I am getting blamed for making her 'suffer' for staying in a job she's not happy in because I won't 'support her' taking this new job in county Y.

Quote
And I know she is emotional about this for several reasons, namely 3 years of grad school for job (finally) that matches her degree, wanting to actually enjoy her job, and most importantly, a strong desire to get her life 'back on track', I think, as professionally as we've gotten our marriage on track.

All of this is beside the point. You don't sacrifice your marriage for a job. That will make your life a nightmare.There are jobs out there that will complement your marriage. You need to find them.

Quote
have wondered to myself how realistic I can be in my lack of enthusiasm for her working in location A versus location B, since, at last knowledge, the POS being a union worker could theoretically be assigned anywhere in the area....so, feels like playing whack-a-mole sometimes.

If that is the case, then why not just move next door to the OM?

I think you are trying real hard to GASLIGHT yourself into a terrible agreement in order to placate your wife.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 02:45 AM
I would love for her to have this job, because I think she could excel in it, and it'd be good for her on many levels...I'd just rather it not be at the location where it is (geography).

I just can't reconcile those two points...and don't know if a solution we both can be enthusiastic about even exists.


(If I really felt bullied, I'd feel safe admitting it here. I think W simply sees this as a great professionl opportunity, and I think feels our marriage is the best it's ever been, and that the care and protection for our M that lacked before is present and strong).
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 02:46 AM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Sometimes I don't know if I'm being irrational in my thinking because, are the odds really greater for contact ANYWHERE in this area (until we move), this county or that county, since the POS is a bit of a 'free agent' with the ability to have a GC assign him to any job.

I think you and your wife and not being very creative in your decisions. IF the OM and move around so easily between your counties, then why not use this great opportunity to move out of the state? If she found the right job out of state, they would likely pay for the move.

Quote
And I hate to bring this up...but sometimes I wonder if this all goes back to the NC Letter, that me not insisting she send one, skipping this important step, has retained some seed of doubt or distrust in me, feelings that I should've long since processed and been done with?

No, the letter has nothing to do with it. Living close to the OM DOES.

As you said, he could be anywhere in your county. THAT is a very good reason to move out of the county.

Quote
Is it more worthwhile to allow her to grow, and feel good about herself, professionally, as much as she feels good about our M now..but have very, very tight EPs, a plan, in place should the worst happen (contact)?

Sacrifice and abandoning EPs is not going to make you happy or her happy. You should not sacrifice your own happiness to make her happy. She won't be "happy" in a bad marriage.

Quote
but have very, very tight EPs, a plan, in place should the worst happen (contact)?

You don't have EPs in place if there is contact. You are abandoning EPs if you do this. And that is fine if you are ok with a repeat affair. Are you ok with that?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 02:47 AM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I would love for her to have this job, because I think she could excel in it, and it'd be good for her on many levels...I'd just rather it not be at the location where it is (geography).

I just can't reconcile those two points...and don't know if a solution we both can be enthusiastic about even exists.


(If I really felt bullied, I'd feel safe admitting it here. I think W simply sees this as a great professionl opportunity, and I think feels our marriage is the best it's ever been, and that the care and protection for our M that lacked before is present and strong).

My suggestion would be to try USING the Marriage Builders program. It is not being used here in any way, shape or form.

What if she thinks drunk driving with you in the back seat is a "great professional opportunity?" Do you think thats smart?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 02:49 AM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I would love for her to have this job, because I think she could excel in it, and it'd be good for her on many levels...I'd just rather it not be at the location where it is (geography).

Its not the only job in America.

[quote]
(If I really felt bullied, I'd feel safe admitting it here. I think W simply sees this as a great professionl opportunity, and I think feels our marriage is the best it's ever been, and that the care and protection for our M that lacked before is present and strong).[/qutoe]

Trying to make you feel guilty for not capitulating is a bully tactic whether you recognize it or not. Your wife apparently is not to worried about affair proofing your marriage and is even less concerned about your feelings.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 02:54 AM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I
I just can't reconcile those two points...and don't know if a solution we both can be enthusiastic about even exists.

Yes, there is a solution. But you have to be creative about it. And you to have to stop being so black and white and inflexible. This job obviously doesn't work, but there are better jobs in better places if you will start looking for them.

You are not opening your minds to the multitude of other possibilities. As long as you stay STUCK on this one job in this one place, you won't see the other possibilities.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 02:56 AM
Mel,

HFM did contact Dr. Harley directly...addressed the issue on the air and via email.

Both Dr. Harley and Joyce mentioned, due to the nature of the OM ability to be anywhere possibly that we establish clear EPs IF W were to take this position, in addition to 'the usual' EPs highlighted in SAA.

And yes, they chided us about "until you move"...we have a plan for that, but will need to wait for a couple years. Dr. Harley stated that "if they've taken moving off the table as an option, then here's what to do....

The EPs that DR. & Mrs. Harley suggested were: immediate notice to me if there was contact, especially if OM was assigned a union job there, obviously, and that HFM would need to leave that job.

W agreed to both as her course of action.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 03:02 AM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
The EPs that DR. & Mrs. Harley suggested were: immediate notice to me if there was contact, especially if OM was assigned a union job there, obviously, and that HFM would need to leave that job.

I have to think that Dr Harley does not understand you plan to abandon EPs in order to get this job and I think I will send him this thread. I don't appreciate you wasting my VALUABLE time with this thread if you had already emailed Dr Harley and made your decision. What is the point?

Saying that she will give you immediate notice if she sees the OM completely misses the point and is a ridiculous notion. If she wants to start an affair, she will NOT give you notice at all. She will hide it like she did before. Telling you that she has been in contact does not erase the triggered feelings so it does nothing to mitigate the damage.

When was her email read on air? I will listen and email Dr Harley.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 03:03 AM
What a waste of my time. smh...
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 03:06 AM
Mel,

I would NEVER try to BS you. For 1., I owe you too much and have too much respect for you. And 2., you're from Texas. 'nough said.

She's in a crap job...she left the one she took right after the affair in order to be CLOSER to home, for US, but it's in a crappy nursing home, and the pay/work conditions are not good.

She has applied to over 40 jobs at about 5 local hosptals in our home county...there are about 5 more in the county next door; the one with the job offer is the one geopgraphiacally closest to our house. Most, if not all of what's out there are overnight shifts -- a no-no in MB being apart overnights. She could EASILY work a 7P-7A job, becasue that's almost all that's out there right now.

And, not trying to speak for her, but like Wulffpack, HFM has been so traumatized by her mistake, and life ruined in many ways, that HFM feels our marriage IS affair-proofed -- not in a static way -- but that it is a constant set of behaviors that she follows and believes in.

That she will NEVER go down that path again; MB has taught her the tools on how to complain in a marriage, or negotiate with an emotional spouse, or maintain UA time, or how to follow being accountable for time, money, etc.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 03:10 AM
I'm sorry if you feel I wasted your time.

For the love of God, I sorry I'm not perfect and am juggling 5 things at once in my job/family etc. and didn't type my narrative chronologically and remembered details after I typed. The email was months ago, when the job was a might be/could be/may be.

You know, sometimes in life you write to figure out what you're going to write about.

Please enjoy the rest of your evening.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 03:13 AM
Let me try yo find it in my email...

Brian Link sent it to us, but it was back in the fall.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 03:17 AM
And frankly, if she wantes to start another affair, I'm out.

I'm not going through all this again. I'll be exiting the marriage at that point.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 03:17 AM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
That she will NEVER go down that path again; MB has taught her the tools on how to complain in a marriage, or negotiate with an emotional spouse, or maintain UA time, or how to follow being accountable for time, money, etc.

Unfortunately, she never learned the very basic tools of affair proofing a marriage and implementing EPs. Y'all missed the POJA entirely. She WILL go down that path again if EPs are abandoned as you are suggesting here.

The fact that you would say she "will never go down that path again" while suggesting she work right by the OM indicates a complete lack of comprehension of what causes affairs. But I know you know this deep down: "I am not enthusiastic about you working in that county Y, and I am not enthusiastic about you working closer to where OM lives."

I have to believe you must have learned something in all the years you have been here.

This thread has been a waste of my time so I have forwarded the link to Dr Harley.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 03:18 AM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
And frankly, if she wantes to start another affair, I'm out.

I'm not going through all this again. I'll be exiting the marriage at that point.

If you don't want to go through it again, then why would you set yourself up for it? Why take the risk? I don't get that.

Didn't you get hurt enough the last time?
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 03:19 AM
The show aired Tuesday, October 29, 2013.

Sorry for wasting your valuable time.

Thanks anyway. Good night.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 03:19 AM
(now I'm giving you my opinion because only Dr. Harley can say what he means)

Originally Posted by helpfordad
Mel,

HFM did contact Dr. Harley directly...addressed the issue on the air and via email.

Both Dr. Harley and Joyce mentioned, due to the nature of the OM ability to be anywhere possibly that we establish clear EPs IF W were to take this position, in addition to 'the usual' EPs highlighted in SAA.

And yes, they chided us about "until you move"...we have a plan for that, but will need to wait for a couple years. Dr. Harley stated that "if they've taken moving off the table as an option, then here's what to do....

The EPs that DR. & Mrs. Harley suggested were: immediate notice to me if there was contact, especially if OM was assigned a union job there, obviously, and that HFM would need to leave that job.

W agreed to both as her course of action.

I want to address the issue of moving with you.
You mention how Dr. Harley may comment in this manner "Moving would be ideal..." or "if they've taken moving off the table then..."

When he phrases his speech like this it does not mean endorsement of YOUR plan.
He phrases it as a best case scenerio, much as a medical doctor may tell the patient that smokes a pack a day "If you won't quit smoking then we should look at..."
The MD is not telling the person to keep smoking!

You need to carefully examine his speech and material before going off thinking he is endorsing your plan for not moving.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 03:24 AM
Mel,

I HAVE been here long enough to know that.

Like a parent, I feel I can hear in his tone of voice what course of action he wants us to follow, what he wishes we'd follow NOW, and not delay 2 more years. I don't think EITHER of us took it as an endorsement.

Hearing that "well, hmmm" sense of disappoinment in his voice does not make me feel good, feels embarassing -- either one of us -- and HFM is actually the one pushing moving more than I am!!!

We understand that he's giving commentary that is trying to make the 'most of the least' options.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 03:30 AM
I see little hope for your marriage if you don't move.
It's sad that you would have her accept a job 7 miles from OM home, after all that you have been through.

Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 03:36 AM
Maybe I'm making it too black and white, becasue guys...our marriage is the best it's ever been.

It's not perfect.

But we have UA time each week, there are no more AO, we have learned and do POJA on many many things we never did in the "old" marriage.

Even when I'm not enthusiastic about something, I can understand HFM's desire to 'claim' her new life, marriage, and not feel confined to where we live, or our social circles, or job opportunities due to some scumball loser mistake out there who she's not going back to.

We are by no means perfect, but she is driven, as am I, to follow MB to our best abilities to remain married, to nut just survie, but thrive.

And yes, we understand the gravity of moving.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 03:41 AM
JK,

Should I be somehow investigating if the OM still even lives there?

Or does that not really matter if he's moved from that location?

This happened in 2010.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 03:45 AM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
We are by no means perfect, but she is driven, as am I, to follow MB to our best abilities to remain married, to nut just survie, but thrive.

"Thriving" is not what you will be doing when the affair resumes when she is continually triggered by seeing him around. You weren't "thriving" when you arrived here and you are willing to risk going back to that horrible place. And for what? A little job that could be obtained in a safe place?

None of us are "perfect" either, but we don't play games with our marriages. One doesn't have to be "perfect" to observe very basic EPs.

Your wife won't be happy and you won't be happy if your marriage experiences another affair. I can't even begin to imagine why you would give it all up for so little.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 03:46 AM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
JK,

Should I be somehow investigating if the OM still even lives there?

Or does that not really matter if he's moved from that location?

You should not even be discussing OM 4 years later, YET YOU ARE. He is top of mind.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 03:48 AM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Maybe I'm making it too black and white, becasue guys...our marriage is the best it's ever been.

Yet you would throw it all away...
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 03:48 AM
And you feels the odds of contact are that much greater by her working there, even though the affair began when he was in OUR county for work? And could still end up on a job now?

I am truly trying to get all of your inputs so that I'm not seeing this with blinders on.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 03:49 AM
You are right on this. Good point. Very wrong to even be a topic of conversation.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 03:51 AM
So, we could be naive in our feeling in love again, and feeling our marriage is strong, and valuing the MB program, and believing that we have affair-proofed it?

That how good we feel about each other or the marriage is creating a false sense of security, not a sense of confidence that the factors that led to her affair have been eliminated and will remain so eliminated?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 03:51 AM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
And you feels the odds of contact are that much greater by her working there, even though the affair began when he was in OUR county for work? And could still end up on a job now?

If you believe this logic, then why not move next door to the OM? Heck, he could end up working in your county anyway.

Why bother with any EPs at all, in that case?
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 03:53 AM
Ok, Mel....touche.

But is that really an equivalent? Choosing to LIVE next door to OM vs. he COULD possibly get work at that hospital, just as he did at W's hospital in our county in 2010?

Just thinking out loud, not playing semantics...
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 03:53 AM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
So, we could be naive in our feeling in love again, and feeling our marriage is strong, and valuing the MB program, and believing that we have affair-proofed it?

Your marriage is not "affair proofed" if you haven't done everything to ensure no contact is observed. You don't even comprehend the danger with your plan for her to work close to the OM's home.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 03:54 AM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
And you feels the odds of contact are that much greater by her working there, even though the affair began when he was in OUR county for work? And could still end up on a job now?

I am truly trying to get all of your inputs so that I'm not seeing this with blinders on.

Nobody is debating "county" lines with you.
This isn't the Dukes of Hazard where we worry what county the guy is in, or try to make it to the county line to beat the Sheriff.

County line doesnt mean anything to people in an affair.
The issue is that if he lives 7 miles away from the job, that's a 5 minute car drive for your wife. 5 minutes!
What do you think will happen if she sees him at a gas station or maybe decides to drive by his house and he happens to be outside watering the grass?

Why would you take that risk?
The fact that you are arguing about this makes it clear that your marriage may not be as well as you boast it is.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 03:56 AM
JK,

I understand your point. Good analogy.

I don't feel like I'm boasting, that's not my intect. Just sharing how I feel about my marriage now vs. then, pre-A, that's all.

Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 03:58 AM
Ok, so we may feel we've affair-proofed our marriage, and it may be, but only to a point...and that point being that we haven't fully done so until we move (or, the OM moves out of the area).
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 03:59 AM
My gut tells me that even if I am O&H and share that I'd rather her not take that position...she will accept it anyway (to "prove" she's trustworthy again? to feel that she/we are 'normalized'?).
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 04:04 AM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
My gut tells me that even if I am O&H and share that I'd rather her not take that position...she will accept it anyway (to "prove" she's trustworthy again? to feel that she/we are 'normalized'?).

faint That is some insane, wayward logic! That is like saying I will "prove" I am a GREAT DRIVER by going drunk driving! rotflmao

Taking the job against your will and and against the best interest of your marriage will PROVE she is untrustworthy. A trustworthy person behaves in trustworthy manners. Taking a job by the OM is NOT trustworthy behavior.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 04:06 AM
And then what if she does?


Mel, if you do choose to listen to the rebroadcast of "Joe's" question from 10/29/13, you know I welcome your feedback.

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 04:10 AM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
And then what if she does?

I doubt she will if you just tell her you are not enthusiastic about it. If she is as far along in the program as you say, it shouldn't be an issue.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 04:12 AM
And if I go along with it, trying for a 'greater good' and wanting this for her, for her career...

then I'm asking for whatever I get, whatever consequence that happens.

That'll be on me.

Worrying each day if 'today is the day' the OM comes in to work, or as a patient, or a family member...

That'll be on me, since I went along with it, and begrudgibgly agreed to it.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 04:18 AM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
And if I go along with it, trying for a 'greater good' and wanting this for her, for her career...

Thats not the "greater good," though. This plan is decidedly the greater BAD. Capitulation and sacrifice is damaging to marriages. And in this case, it presents a great risk of the affair resuming.

Are you not familiar with Dr. Harleys views on capitulation and sacrifice?
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 04:20 AM
Yes I am.

Sacrifice will lead to resentment and angry and is ultimately bad for a marriage.

Trying to make the best of a bad situation sucks.

Moving is the best solution, and I look forward to it some day soon.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 04:26 AM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Yes I am.

Sacrifice will lead to resentment and angry and is ultimately bad for a marriage.

Trying to make the best of a bad situation sucks.

Moving is the best solution, and I look forward to it some day soon.

I would not go along with this, my friend. Keep looking for solutions that complement your marriage and make you BOTH happy. There is a solution out there, you just have to try harder to find it.

Not sure why you can't move, but if she just got her degree, she could get a job out of state and many companies will pay for the move. If you start making plans now, you could perhaps move in Q1 of 2015. Most companies start hiring in Q1.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 04:30 AM
Mel,

I at least owe you an honest answer with this, for the record.

We just sent our 1st child to college 2 weeks ago. Our youngest has 2 more years at high school (the children were/are in the same school district I teach).

Once he graduates high school, we're moving.

We have already begun to make plans and are investigating new locations to reside.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 04:37 AM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Mel,

I at least owe you an honest answer with this, for the record.

We just sent our 1st child to college 2 weeks ago. Our youngest has 2 more years at high school (the children were/are in the same school district I teach).

Once he graduates high school, we're moving.

We have already begun to make plans and are investigating new locations to reside.

You know, we have had many people in similar situations move. They either took the high school kid with them or he/she stayed behind and lived with a relative or friend. Its not like you can't move now. Your son will be just fine, but your marriage may not be fine.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 02:37 PM
Melody,

We understand how productive a move would be. Rightly or wrongly, we also know that they've been through alot because of out actions, and feel we as the adults don't want them to suffer another consequence because of it.

I know I'm probably in the wrong for this, but sometimes I wish it was the other person who was forced to moved, or that they would just disappear...


I'm going to be out most of the day with soccer games, and I understand you are very busy as well. I just wanted to know if I should be looking out for any feedback from you regarding our radio segment from 10/29/13?

Please know we appreciate your insights.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 02:44 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Mel,

HFM did contact Dr. Harley directly...addressed the issue on the air and via email.

Both Dr. Harley and Joyce mentioned, due to the nature of the OM ability to be anywhere possibly that we establish clear EPs IF W were to take this position, in addition to 'the usual' EPs highlighted in SAA.

And yes, they chided us about "until you move"...we have a plan for that, but will need to wait for a couple years. Dr. Harley stated that "if they've taken moving off the table as an option, then here's what to do....

The EPs that DR. & Mrs. Harley suggested were: immediate notice to me if there was contact, especially if OM was assigned a union job there, obviously, and that HFM would need to leave that job.

W agreed to both as her course of action.

Was there another call? This is not lining up.

You said HFM contacted them and the 10/29 caller was you - Joe.

I didn't hear any EPs regarding taking the job. Joyce was more playing devil's advocate and saying, well, he's saying the hospital is in OM's county and the likelyhood he would ever show up is tiny. Maybe she could quit that day?? Dr Harley wasn't on board with that.

He said:
1) you should move
2) he is curious what other EPs are being implemented
3) that while your W is probably assuring you you don't have to worry, the point is that it IS a concern or else you wouldn't be writing about it - that alone is a reason to not do this. EPs are in part done for the peace of mind of the BS.

He in no way supported this and I must add that it was not pointed out, at least in what was read on the radio that the job would take your W seven miles from the OM's house. It was written that the job is at in a county where OM lives.

Posted By: SusieQ Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 02:44 PM
So your W was offered this job in Oct 2013, you guys turned it down bc of this advice and then she applied to the same hospital again??
Posted By: SusieQ Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 02:46 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
When asked how I feel about it, my answer has been:

"I am not enthusiastic about you working in that county Y, and I am not enthusiastic about you working closer to where OM lives."

W is then getting upset, saying I can trust her, and asking if I will "be supportive if she decides to take the offer."

Your W isn't following EPs or POJA. End of story.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 03:28 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Melody,

We understand how productive a move would be. Rightly or wrongly, we also know that they've been through alot because of out actions, and feel we as the adults don't want them to suffer another consequence because of it.

He will do more than suffer if you won't use the program. You and your wife are not following the POJA and don't seem to understand basic EPs. How astonishing to read that your wife believes you should "trust" her so much that she can abandon basic extraordinary precautions! After all this time, one doesn't expect to see such wayward logic. That is like saying you should "trust" me to go drunk driving since I have been so good for 29 years! crazy

Moving will benefit ALL of you. Staying there just puts his family in jeopardy.

Your marriage has not recovered and I believe a big reason is because you still live there and because of this, the affair is still TOP OF MIND. Here you are, after all, still talking about the OM four years later!! WOW!!

How is that in your son's best interest?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 03:31 PM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
Originally Posted by helpfordad
When asked how I feel about it, my answer has been:

"I am not enthusiastic about you working in that county Y, and I am not enthusiastic about you working closer to where OM lives."

W is then getting upset, saying I can trust her, and asking if I will "be supportive if she decides to take the offer."

Your W isn't following EPs or POJA. End of story.

Amen!
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 04:55 PM
Even after 4 years?

The end of the affair, job losses, guilt, regret, participating in recovery, the remorse....

A person would still have a wayward mindset after all of this, 4 years on?
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 04:58 PM
If taking this position is not an option, and taking what IS avalaible -- overnight shifts -- is not an option, then get only option is to remain at the job she hates, not using her degree, not advancing professionally, simply waiting through 20, 30 more jib apps until something agreeable to both presents, no matter how long that may be?

I'm really trying to brainstorm this...
Posted By: armymama Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 05:03 PM
Well, it should be "WE are really trying to brainstorm this...". Instead, your wife is minimizing your feelings and suggesting that you should trust her to make an independent decision that you do not support.

One more time. Your wife isn't following EPs or POJA.

AM
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 05:35 PM
hfd, try using the POJA and maintaining EPs in the process. Find ways to use her degree that HELPS your marriage, rather than harms it.

What you have been doing is not "brainstorming" at all. All you are doing is trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. THAT is not "brainstorming." That is just being LAZY.

Find solutions that meet these criteria: a) solution is good for your marriage and b) has mutual enthusiastic agreement. You guys are ignoring those basic principles and as such, are coming up with bad solutions that will wreck your marriage.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 05:38 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Even after 4 years?

The end of the affair, job losses, guilt, regret, participating in recovery, the remorse....

A person would still have a wayward mindset after all of this, 4 years on?

How do you explain that a wayward who is 4 years into "recovery" doesn't even understand the very most BASIC extraordinary precaution of NO CONTACT?

She is ready and willing to throw away LIFE as you know it, your MARRIAGE, over a little job? And you are helping her do that?

The fact that you are still discussing the OM 4 years later tells me exactly where you are in recovery: NOT VERY FAR!!
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 05:57 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
hfd, try using the POJA and maintaining EPs in the process. Find ways to use her degree that HELPS your marriage, rather than harms it.

What you have been doing is not "brainstorming" at all. All you are doing is trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. THAT is not "brainstorming." That is just being LAZY.

Find solutions that meet these criteria: a) solution is good for your marriage and b) has mutual enthusiastic agreement. You guys are ignoring those basic principles and as such, are coming up with bad solutions that will wreck your marriage.


The solution is simple.
You move.
Out of state; not across city or county lines.
move out of state.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 06:08 PM
hfd, your approach to problem solving is nothing akin to the POJA and will create incompatibility and resentment:

Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley in "Following the Policy of Joint Agreement When You're VERY Incompatible"
First, let me review how incompatibility is created. It begins when one spouse does something in his or her own best interest that's not in the other spouse's best interest. An example is having an affair. People have an affair because it meets their emotional needs and makes them feel good. The fact that the affair hurts their spouse does not deter them. An affair creates instant incompatibility because as long as it's tolerated, there's no way that a couple can live together in harmony.

All other acts of self-interest at the other's expense also creates incompatibility in various degrees. Incompatibility, therefore, is simply the accumulation of thoughtless habits and activities. The more of them a couple tries to tolerate, the more incompatible they are.

Most marriages start off with very few thoughtless habits because successful courting usually gets rid of them. Couples who are considering marriage go to great pains to behave thoughtfully because, if they don't, they won't get to the altar.

But after marriage, thoughtless behavior usually begins to grow. In the name of personal freedom, private interests and expanding horizons, spouses develop habits and activities that do not take each other's feelings into account. Before long, they are no longer compatible.

The bottom line is that couples need to eliminate behavior that is good for one and bad for the other, even if it makes the one eliminating it feel bad. Truth is, it should never have been there in the first place, and all you're doing is eliminating a bad habit. It's like telling a child molester to stop molesting children. It may make him feel bad to stop, but he should never have gotten started in the first place.

<snip unrelated>

As a couple identifies and eliminates thoughtless behavior, the withdrawal they experience will cause some unhappiness at first. But it doesn't leave a void -- couples are not left with nothing to do. They replace their thoughtless behavior with new thoughtful activities that give them a solid marriage, love for each other and much greater happiness than they ever could have had with all their thoughtless activities combined.
here
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 06:55 PM
I feel frustrated because I can't brainstorm FOR someone or negotiate with myself.

I feel I say "I am not enthusiastic about...." and she hears "no you can't work where you may be happy..." Or "yes, you must remain at a job you hate..."

And then she never moves to the next step, which I believe is to brainstorm options and negotiate possible solutions?

I feel she hears "no" when I share I'd rather get not go to that location (assuming om is still there) and then its discussion over.

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 07:21 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I feel frustrated because I can't brainstorm FOR someone or negotiate with myself.

I feel I say "I am not enthusiastic about...." and she hears "no you can't work where you may be happy..." Or "yes, you must remain at a job you hate..."

And then she never moves to the next step, which I believe is to brainstorm options and negotiate possible solutions?

I feel she hears "no" when I share I'd rather get not go to that location (assuming om is still there) and then its discussion over.

Then throw out some options you ARE enthusiastic about. Just don't make the mistake of capitulating just because she is unhappy about having to consider your feelings. Just because she wants to engage in thoughtless, independent behavior doesn't mean you should go along with it.

It is in her best interest to keep negotiating until you find a solution you are BOTH happy about. Otherwise, the default decision is to do nothing.

And I didn't see the answer to this question: how is it that she even applied for a position without your mutual enthusiasm? When a spouse makes such unilateral decisions, here is how Dr. Harley recommends resolving it:

Quote
From Lovebusters, pg 170: [case study of wife Judy, who allowed her sister and BIL, Barbara and Jack, to move in with them when Jack lost his job. Judy's H, Bill, eventually moved out when the relatives would not leave]

How should the Policy of Joint Agreement be applied to a decision that has already been made unilaterally? The damage has already been done, so why not see it through to the bitter end? She wanted her sister and brother-in-law to stay until he could find a job, and from then on she would follow the Policy of Joint Agreement.

I explained to her that when the Policy of Joint Agreement has been violated, and a decision has been made without a joint agreement, a couple must correct the decision as soon as possible. In this case, it meant going back to her decision to invite Jack and Barbara to live with them and making that decision again, this time with the POJA in mind. Since she now knew that Bill would not agree to that arrangement, she had no choice but to ask her sister and BIL to find another place to live. As soon as Jack and Barbara moved out, Bill moved back in.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 07:22 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I feel frustrated because I can't brainstorm FOR someone or negotiate with myself.

The onus is on HER, though, because it is she who wants a new job. So it is in her best interest to find solutions that work for you too. Why should you feel frustrated?
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 07:47 PM
I have helped her apply to close to 20, 30 positions in the last year (anticipating her degree) at 6 hospitals in our region (she is a hospital nurse), but we exclude the hospital she left where she met the om and the A began. (That limits her, because as luck would have it, they are hiring ALOT)

Of the other positions available, most are overnights. Of all the apps she submitted, she received 1 call - a one shift a week position. That's it.

She left her mist recent job in July to take this one, thinking it would be better than where shewas. That one was bad, this one worst.

So here comes this offer, excellent in every way....except location. Place it anywhere else, perfect job. We are both frustrated that the hospitals within earshot of us simply ate not hiring anything but 7p to 7a shifts right now.

If just something, anything would open up local, it'd be great....but for a 24 year nurse whose qualified for hospital nursing, it can be a challenge, especially if a job opens that fits your interests, experience, and education.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 07:52 PM
Well, you didn't answer my question. Why did she apply for the job there in the first place?

In the meantime, you can just keep looking! You can also look in other towns and states that you like. The demand for nurses across the nation is GREAT so there are lots of opportunities.

Keep in mind these 2 principles when applying for a job: a) it must complement the marriage and b) it must have mutual enthusiasm
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 07:55 PM
Quote
Location, Location: Where Are Nurses Needed Most?
Texas, Florida, California, and Colorado published the most job openings for nurses in the first quarter of 2013.

States that showed significant growth in nursing job postings from Q1 2012 to Q1 2013 include: Texas (up 62 percent), Colorado (up 46 percent), Ohio (up 78 percent), and California (up 24 percent). here

It seems that TEXAS has a very high demand for nurses and the unemployment rate is very low. The cost of living there is very low, too.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 08:12 PM
Mel,

Not avoiding your question...while in clinical during degree program, hfm was contacted that this was a may/might/could be position. I think when it opened, she didn't think there was a chance because of all the other in house applicants, so the idea was to use the interview for practice, get back in the game so to speak with interviews, so we didn't anticipate it would come to fruition.

And yes, we have some states in mind down south along our coast....but we have decided to remain where we ate until junior graduates and make the best of it until that time.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 08:14 PM
Oh, wanted to add:

I think hfm feels being in a lousy job NOW, unhappy and miserable on a daily basis in her current position does nothing to complement the marriage now.

That being content professionally affects the marriage positively.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 08:27 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
we have decided to remain where we ate until junior graduates and make the best of it until that time.

Well, I wish you luck.
I don't think you will make it because of the proximity to OM and inevitable triggers she will experience but that is your choice.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 08:34 PM
JK,

I do appreciate your well wishes, and yes, look forward to the day we fulfill our choice to move.

Thank you.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 08:44 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Not avoiding your question...while in clinical during degree program, hfm was contacted that this was a may/might/could be position. I think when it opened, she didn't think there was a chance because of all the other in house applicants, so the idea was to use the interview for practice, get back in the game so to speak with interviews, so we didn't anticipate it would come to fruition.

Sorry but I don't like the sound of this. I almost get the sense your W manipulated you into getting your agreement that she apply for "practice" and then had this plan to talk you into it if she got it.

Anyway, I wouldn't go along with anything resembling this in the future (applying to hospitals near OM for practice).

The same way that you have taken moving off the table - just take the hospitals in OM's county, town, vicinity OFF THE TABLE. No sense in going round and round about why you wish it could be. Just eliminate it as an option - as it never should have been one in the first place.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 08:45 PM
And Melody, what you posted before is the crux of the problem:

In POJA, if I have this correct, if EITHER party is not enthusiastic about a decision/action, then it doesn't get done.

This moves to brainstorming/negotiating.

If no solution is agreed upon enthusiastically by BOTH, then Dr. Harley states the outcome is to do nothing (becasue doing something -- IB, sacrifice, etc.) is actually more damaging than doing nothing. Correct?

I guess this is the point: that doing "nothing" (i.e. remaining at this crummy job) becasue we can't POJA a solution that we both agree to, is not acceptable for hfm.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 08:49 PM
Susie,

No, no manipulation. If that was a mistake, I own it.

I was on board for the interview...I though there was no shot she'd get this, and as she hadn't interviewed for a very long time (she was a long term employee at her previous position), figured it be good practice.

I have been O&H and shared that I would love it if she would just write off that county altogether.

Right now, that's where the jobs are locally, and she has not chosen to remove facilities in that county as employment opportunities.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 08:52 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Susie,

No, no manipulation. If that was a mistake, I own it.

I was on board for the interview...I though there was no shot she'd get this, and as she hadn't interviewed for a very long time (she was a long term employee at her previous position), figured it be good practice.

I have been O&H and shared that I would love it if she would just write off that county altogether.

Right now, that's where the jobs are locally, and she has not chosen to remove facilities in that county as employment opportunities.

What's done is done.

Tell her OM's county is OFF THE TABLE. End of discussion!
Posted By: SusieQ Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 08:53 PM
Not even for "interview" "practice" or any other reason. Just stay out of that county!!

Geez, hfd!! This shouldn't be the subject of so much discussion - and you both know BETTER than this!!
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 08:58 PM
I ended my part of the discussion with:

"I am not enthusiastic about you working in that county, in a workplace closer to the OM than where you work now. I would like to brainstorm solutions."

She does not seem to like my response, for I feel she reads it as "You are telling me where I can/cannot work, I am unhappy in my current job and want to leave it, I want to be happy professionally again and this new position is an offer I can't refuse."

As I stated earlier, my assumption right now is that she will accept the position, albeit with offering a list of EPs to me intended to make me feel 'safe and secure' about her working there.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 09:05 PM
Susie,

Im sorry I didn't address your note earlier about the Dr, Harley radio segment.

I took away from it:

1. Dr. Harley is adamant that we should move away
2. Joyce shared that if that's not an option on the table, then what?
3. Joyce then suggested immediate notification IF there is contact, and also that I think she said "that day" my W would need to leave that job
4. Dr. Harley seemed to say "well...okay". Not in tacit agreement, but I took it as, 'that's better than nothing' or, 'that could be a way to handle it'
5. He re-emphasized that we should move.

I felt they were a little confused with the latter part of the question. I wanted to know if it was possible for my W to ever return to the workplace where the A began? Or would it be too much of a trigger? There was thinking that since OM had been fired from there, the chances of him ever returning to THAT jobsite were slim, making it a 'safer' option for work.

HFM feels its just overall too much a trigger for her to return there for work.
Posted By: armymama Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 09:53 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I ended my part of the discussion with:

"I am not enthusiastic about you working in that county, in a workplace closer to the OM than where you work now. I would like to brainstorm solutions."

She does not seem to like my response, for I feel she reads it as "You are telling me where I can/cannot work, I am unhappy in my current job and want to leave it, I want to be happy professionally again and this new position is an offer I can't refuse."

As I stated earlier, my assumption right now is that she will accept the position, albeit with offering a list of EPs to me intended to make me feel 'safe and secure' about her working there.

The approach shows a lack of empathy for your feelings. If her approach continues, I don't think you will need to plan on moving in two yours. Your marriage won't last that long.

AM
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 10:01 PM
AM,

This is sheer speculation on my part, but...

I feel she sometimes feels that she's been "punished enough" for her affair, and that she sees opportunities like this (she HAS poja'd herself out of other jobs) as a means to get her life 'back on track' after all the illness, repair, job loss, income loss, her mother's death, you name it in the 4 years since her affair ended.

Honestly, it feels like it's been one thing after another since this tragedy.

And I tell her that while I understand all that because Ive chosen to remain in the marriage and have experienced it with her, that doesn't supplant how I feel about this decision in front of us.

Thanks for checking in; your input is extremely valuable to me.

Edited to add: my fear is that she holds onto so much resentment and anger from/about the 'old' marriage, that I think she feels she didn't look out for herself enough, maybe, or felt she put me before her, previously, and that she tells herself 'I'm never doing THAT again', and thus will never feel the needed empathy for me, as it would "feel" like I am the priority of herself again, like before? (sorry, that's alot of armchair psychology..)
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 10:16 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Oh, wanted to add:

I think hfm feels being in a lousy job NOW, unhappy and miserable on a daily basis in her current position does nothing to complement the marriage now.

That being content professionally affects the marriage positively.

Then the solution is to quit, not to take another job that endangers her marriage. This job will not affect your marriage positively. Her professional aspirations must not be achieved at the expense of your marriage. I honestly don't have high hopes for your marriage since everything comes BEFORE it. You can't sustain a marriage like this.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 10:21 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
As I stated earlier, my assumption right now is that she will accept the position, albeit with offering a list of EPs to me intended to make me feel 'safe and secure' about her working there.

I don't believe she would be that uncaring after all you have been through. This would mean she cares nothing about your feelings and I find it hard to believe your marriage is that bad at this point.

Is your marriage really so bad that your wife would not only endanger your marriage but completely ignore your feelings? Are you truly not in a recovered marriage?

I guess that makes sense since she clearly places her career so far above her marriage that she will sacrifice it to get a good job.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 10:31 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Edited to add: my fear is that she holds onto so much resentment and anger from/about the 'old' marriage, that I think she feels she didn't look out for herself enough, maybe, or felt she put me before her, previously, and that she tells herself 'I'm never doing THAT again', and thus will never feel the needed empathy for me, as it would "feel" like I am the priority of herself again, like before? (sorry, that's alot of armchair psychology..)

hfd, lets just get honest here and admit you are not in a recovered marriage. You know you are not. It is very clear that you have not created a marriage that is a major improvement over the pre-affair marriage. And I can see why. Everything comes BEFORE your marriage: your wife's job, your son's high school, and probably many other things. This would explain why your wife doesn't care if your marriage is harmed by her job.

And this all makes sense given the fact that you are 4 years into this and there are so very many things wrong. You don't even know how to use the POJA and are so willing to abandon EPs for a job. I can't imagine you are following other aspects of the MB program if you are ignoring those basic things.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 11:28 PM
Melody,

Well then maybe we really aren't in a recovered marriage, or as 'recovered' as we think we are. Maybe we are jusy following MB program 'to a point', and while the marriage is, in honesty, better than ever, that should not be confused with where it should be. (We're going on our 3rd 'date' this week of UA time tonight).

What you mentioned is true, in a sense: I guess we do put son finishing HS before moving, and it feels like hfm puts career over M. But other than that --no small things I agree -- nothing else.

She doesn't feel that her working there is the threat to our marriage that I do; she says everyting affair related is 'dead' to her...the bad times, the bad actions, the bad feelings. That I am attributing or connecting bad feelings to it; she feels nothing, nothing good.

I also feel what you write, and said it to her earlier: taking a job next week that is closer to the Om that I am not enthusiastic about is NOT the soluton to you not being happy in the job you have now.

Two separate items; two separate solutuins.

Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 11:29 PM
Maybe she feels that the marriage CAN'T be harmed in any way that it was before, becasue the conditions that allowed for it before have been eliminated?

(that may be how SHE feels, but I'm always wary...)

Just thinking out loud..
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 11:32 PM
I sometimes feel it's telling that I'M the one always one here for advice, or when I feel I or the marriage need 'tweaking'.

She never utilizes this as a resource, both for us and her own personal healing/growth, and I wish she would.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 11:34 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
As I stated earlier, my assumption right now is that she will accept the position, albeit with offering a list of EPs to me intended to make me feel 'safe and secure' about her working there.

So this is why you have asked us to help you brainstorm ideas....because if you can't come up with a better option your W will take be taking this job, regardless of your feelings.

This is very sad, hfd. You seem to be in denial of the reality of the situation. You keep telling us your W is onboard and that your M is affair proofed when quite the opposite is the case.

Your W's sense of entitlement is alarming and I see another A in your future...
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/13/14 11:40 PM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
[q
So this is why you have asked us to help you brainstorm ideas....because if you can't come up with a better option your W will take be taking this job, regardless of your feelings.

Like Susie has pointed out, there are much bigger problems here than this job, i.e.: the fact that your wife does not take your feelings into account and will sacrifice your marriage for her career.

Like Dr Harley points out, anything that comes BEFORE your marriage will eventually come between you. So far you have told us her career and your son's school come before your marriage. That is HUGE. Since your marriage is so insignificant, I am sure there are other things.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 12:10 AM
I think I originally posted moreso to make sure I was doing the poja process correctly, since this seems to be the most serious issue we've needed to poja.

And out of frustration because once I shared my lack of enthusiam about the job, healthy communication seemed to end on her part.

I feel sometimes she does seem entitled...I don't know I agree with another A after the phusical, mental, financial, professional consequences since this occured.

But I know enough now to know I thought it would never happen before, in the first place, either...
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 12:13 AM
Mel,

She does not feel she is putting career before marriage.

I respectfully disagree with that, and worry she might be, but I can't demand for her to believe otherwise, or have to see things the same way I do. Although it would be nice to feel on the same page with these issues. She has her own opinions & beliefs, as do I, and they differ.
Posted By: Darkguy Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 12:20 AM
Why are you POJAing an EP?! Her affair was workplace right? if I recall correctly POJA doesn't apply to EPs. All sources of the affair must be removed that includes the job. Their isn't any position to respect I think you should ask Dr. Harley about this. I for one think you are being suckered.

Even if the POSOM isn't at this job anymore the environment is conducive to affair activity and needs to be eliminated. How many other EPs have you POJA?! What are the EPs? What is your plan for protecting yourself ie post nuptials, Plan B.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 12:21 AM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Mel,

She does not feel she is putting career before marriage.

I respectfully disagree with that, and worry she might be, but I can't demand for her to believe otherwise, or have to see things the same way I do. Although it would be nice to feel on the same page with these issues. She has her own opinions & beliefs, as do I, and they differ.

Her actions tell the truth about what the priorities are, despite her admission. I am going by her actions. It doesn't matter if you and your wife want to deny that, I am just going by the true facts. Your wife is not putting your marriage first when she refuses to take your feelings into account, move away or observe EPs.

You are both in serious denial. Hers is very self serving; yours is very enabling.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 12:22 AM
Melody,

Yours is probably the truest assessment.



I'm sad, embarrassed to admit that, but I'm being O&H.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 12:25 AM
TD,

I feel in our case, pre-A, the conditions were:

AOs
much IB

..the top 4 needs being neglected by both.

Upon reflection, I don't know that the location would've mattered...geez were we just setting ourselves up for this to happen.

What dopes. Just stupid.

IF she does accept the offer, TD, I need to figure out what EPs I require, although I don't know if they'll even help me much to feel any better...
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 12:48 AM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
IF she does accept the offer, TD, I need to figure out what EPs I require, although I don't know if they'll even help me much to feel any better...

But, what EP could possibly compensate for breaking other EPs, such as risking contact? That doesn't make any sense. That is like saying I need some "boundaries" for drunk driving. Does that make any sense?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 12:50 AM
I am a recovering alcoholic with 29 years of sobriety. I will ask my husband what "EPs" he would need for me to go sit in the bar all day. I will tell him to "just trust me!!"
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 02:12 AM
Originally Posted by TranquilDark
Why are you POJAing an EP?! Her affair was workplace right? if I recall correctly POJA doesn't apply to EPs. All sources of the affair must be removed that includes the job. Their isn't any position to respect I think you should ask Dr. Harley about this. I for one think you are being suckered.

Even if the POSOM isn't at this job anymore the environment is conducive to affair activity and needs to be eliminated. How many other EPs have you POJA?! What are the EPs? What is your plan for protecting yourself ie post nuptials, Plan B.

He is absolutely correct.
The POJA is a concept that is used to maintain a healthy marriage.
The EP used in a marriage, as part of the recovery program in Surviving an Affair are entirely different.
For couples that have had an affair, they must follow the guidelines in Surviving an Affair. The slightest deviation from the program can result in failure.

In this posters case, he refuses to follow the guideline to move because he doesnt want to inconvenience his children.
So, disregarding the guidelines in SAA he and his wife have decided to negotiate and come up with a plan for being 7 miles from the affair partners home.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 02:15 AM
We are disregarding the advice to move now in order to wait 2 years to move.

That is correct.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 02:23 AM
I understand that by deciding to stay, we are opening ourselves up to issues/consequences that we'll have to deal with until we do move.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 02:26 AM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I understand that by deciding to stay, we are opening ourselves up to issues/consequences that we'll have to deal with until we do move.

Well it sounds like you've made up your mind.
What is your main question at this point?
Posted By: BlindSighted2013 Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 02:33 AM
hfd, something that rings so odd to me, is that your wife is OKAY with working in such close proximity to the OMs location.

My H had a totally enmeshed LTA, and about six months into TRUE recovery, HE came to ME and asked for us to expand our boundaries as far as the "no travel zone", because HE had ugly triggers and that HE didn't want to have the memory of that "awful time in his life".

Have you ever stopped to think about how it must feel for a truly repentant FWS to have to live those memories of the devastation that they have wreaked on their family?

I have to wonder why your wife doesn't have any of those triggers?
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 03:10 AM


Jedi,

We have made up our mind at this point that we are not moving at this point in time.

No more questions.

Thanks for you time, and goodnight.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 12:48 PM
In essence:

1. EPs are not subject to POJA? (Then what if one of the parties doesn't agree to an EP?)

2. There's no purpose in trying to 'create' EPs on an IB? (Meaning, you don't make up EPs for something that wasn't agreed upon - poja'd - in the first place).

Posted By: BlindSighted2013 Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 01:36 PM
hfd, no, EPs are not subject to POJA.

EPs are so that you as the BS are SAFE going forth with recovery after an A.

EPs are so that you will have mental assurance that it would be IMPOSSIBLE for your wife to re-kindle the past A or ever get involved in a new one.

EPs are the absolutes that YOU require in order to even feel the willingness to attempt recovery.

When we designed EPs, if my H had not agreed to them, we wouldn't be together today. Along the way as I figured out more and more of what I needed, he agreed to each and every thing. As time went on and he came out of the fog, HE came up with more EPs so that we covered every base.

We as a couple have to (continually!) take EXTRAORDINARY measures to protect our M. As others have pointed out, anything that comes before the marriage will eventually come between the marriage.

I really can't conceive of how you or your wife could be one bit okay even contemplating her working near OM. I also can't figure out why two years in your children's lives could be more important than you and your wife honestly repairing your M so that you will be together to enjoy future grandbabies.
Posted By: living_well Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 01:41 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
In essence:

1. EPs are not subject to POJA?


Correct

Originally Posted by helpfordad
(Then what if one of the parties doesn't agree to an EP?)


If the adulterous party does not agree to an EP, it is because he or she does not want to repair the damage. Then your only choice is to prepare to leave. Sometimes this will cause a change of heart.

Originally Posted by helpfordad
2. There's no purpose in trying to 'create' EPs on an IB? (Meaning, you don't make up EPs for something that wasn't agreed upon - poja'd - in the first place).


The purpose of EPs is to protect the marriage. That is not negotiable. Independent behavior is the opposite of a marriage. It essentially says 'I care for myself more than I care for you'. In a real marriage, you put your spouse ahead of you.

Independent behavior leads to disrespectful judgements which in turn lead to angry outbursts. Once you get to that point your marriage is on life support.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 01:54 PM
I want to learn this, I do.

So, an EP would be "not working in OMs county" from the get go.

An EP is not "once you take a job in the OMs county that I'm not enthusiastic about, here are things you can do to make me feel safer about it..."

Is this the MB approach?
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 02:02 PM
Hi HFD,

I am certainly no expert on MB concepts, but I think you should review the comments by TD and JK again - they are absolutely correct! I believe the two concepts are mutually exclusive.

EP is just what the term implies - extraordinary precautions to affair-proof a M and promote a healthy recovery. If the former WS doesn't agree or wants a condition altered or relaxed, then there is a problem, but it doesn't mean that the other spouse becomes willing to negotiate. Joint Agreement is a policy of maintaining a healthy and happy marriage, as JK stated. I think it is a method of respecting each others' needs and opinions by achieving enthusiastic agreement. I think it does apply to most things in a marriage. However, I believe that Harley cites exceptions, such as exposure or when the health and safety of a spouse may be put at risk. Therefor, I think that one of the exceptions would be to 'agree' to relax an EP, because it could adversely affect the health of the M.

Tom
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 02:47 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I want to learn this, I do.

So, an EP would be "not working in OMs county" from the get go.

An EP is not "once you take a job in the OMs county that I'm not enthusiastic about, here are things you can do to make me feel safer about it..."

Is this the MB approach?

Of course! EP's are not negotiable. The first step in recovering from an affair is assuring no contact with the OP. If she is going to work close to the OM, she is violating an EP.
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 02:50 PM
HFD,

I just thought of another example that might help you. When you say we have made up our minds that we are not moving at this point, it sounds like mutual agreement. However, if You had set moving away as a condition for your remaining in the M it would be an EP and would be non-negotiable. If your W did not agree or resisted, it would indicate that she is NOT 100% committed to the repair and recovery of your M, and you would have a decision to make. If you gave in to her resistance and delayed the move you would be seriously compromising your recovery by continuing the risk of further mention of the OM or even chance contact with him or just enabling triggers and memories to occur by remaining in the area.

The WHERE to move (as long as far away from OM) can be subject to POJA. I.e., considerations of big city vs. small town, job opportunities, climate, cost of living, etc.

I hope this helps.

Tom
Posted By: kerala Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 02:51 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I want to learn this, I do.

So, an EP would be "not working in OMs county" from the get go.

An EP is not "once you take a job in the OMs county that I'm not enthusiastic about, here are things you can do to make me feel safer about it..."

Is this the MB approach?

As others have said, yes. Additionally, your second quote demonstrates a breach of POJA. If you're not enthusiastic about her taking a particular job, it's off the table for her. The issue is not what she can do to make you feel "safer", but that you are not enthusiastic about it. In this case, it also violates EPs but even without that element, it is inconsistent with MB.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 03:31 PM
Ok, to follow through...

If/when she accepts this job -- which we did not poja, is not up for poja -- she is not honoring an EP (not working in OMs county).

Even if SHE does not believe it does not need to be an EP, becasue SHE feels she/we are 'safe and secure and nothings going to happen'...or feels that the EP is dictating where she can or can't work, thus 'limiting' her professional happiness/growth...so long as it is an EP for ME...it's an EP. It just IS an EP, correct?

In this case, by breaking nthe EP, she is engaging in Independent Behavior, which may damage the marriage, according to Dr. Harley...may lead to sacrifice, resentment, etc...all bad things.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 03:34 PM
And the next step in the MB program if you're in a marriage where the spouse will not honor EPs?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 03:47 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
And the next step in the MB program if you're in a marriage where the spouse will not honor EPs?

The next step in the MB program is to start working the program with your wife and INSIST she follow extraordinary precautions to protect you from another affair. Start working this program, hfd, it is not a cafeteria plan where you take a little of this and a little of that. Your marriage is not going to work out if you are not following EPs and you don't use the POJA.
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 03:47 PM
HFD,

I think it's much more than independent behavior. It's could be a violation of a condition you established to remain in and protect your marriage and work on recovery with her. Doesn't make any difference if she feels it's justified or not. If I just come to a rolling stop at a stop sign because there is no traffic and I feel the complete stop doesn't apply in this instance - would not make any difference to a traffic cop who may be behind me. Independent behavior is more like me going to a poker night with the guys even tho my wife would rather we go to a movie.

Take care,

Tom
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 03:48 PM
This situation should have NEVER come up if you had been using the POJA in the first place. She would have NEVER applied. Applying for a job you can't take "for the interview experience" is ludicrous and unbelievable. This should have never been an issue in the first place if you were following this program.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 03:50 PM
It is unfathomable that you are still discussing the OM 4 years later. Unbelievable. And it is all because your marriage COMES LAST. This is the result when you put your marriage as the LAST PRIORITY.

I feel strongly that you are going to have to endure a resumption of the affair to ever GET IT. You are going to be a member of the School of Hard Knocks by the time this is all over.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 04:00 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
This situation should have NEVER come up if you had been using the POJA in the first place. She would have NEVER applied. Applying for a job you can't take "for the interview experience" is ludicrous and unbelievable. This should have never been an issue in the first place if you were following this program.

I had the same reaction, hfd.

She shouldn't even be driving over there near the OM's house, not for a coffee, not for an interview and certainly not for a job!

If you listened to the radio show AT ALL you would know this!

You two need to start listening and you need the online program. As I recall, this issue was brought up to BOTH of you about a year ago.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 04:16 PM
"You two"....

I can insist all I want: I am not enthusiastic about you working in OMs county and that's an EP for me.

I know the answer is to follow the program.

The question is when, after all the 'insisting', one spouse believes the other is making an issue our of something that doesn't exist, and refuses or simply does not fundamentally believe in the EP, or abiding by the EP (ie 'you can't tell me where to work!')
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 04:19 PM
Can a betrayed spouse never believe the fws has truly learned horrible lessons from an affair and know that that person would never walk down that path again?

Even after all of the mental, spiritual, financial, medical consequences? A fws wouldn't come to know 'I'm never doing THAT again"???
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 04:22 PM
I listen to the show as often as I can.

I check into the forum often.

I watch for a read updated materials posted by Dr. Harley.

Hfm does not frequent the website or listen to the rebroadcasts.

I have shared that I wished she at least kept in touch with the forum, the readings and touching base with other MBers.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 04:28 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
The question is when, after all the 'insisting', one spouse believes the other is making an issue our of something that doesn't exist, and refuses or simply does not fundamentally believe in the EP, or abiding by the EP (ie 'you can't tell me where to work!')

Are you saying that she doesn't care or understand the danger of being close to the OM after all this time?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 04:31 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Can a betrayed spouse never believe the fws has truly learned horrible lessons from an affair and know that that person would never walk down that path again? Even after all of the mental, spiritual, financial, medical consequences? A fws wouldn't come to know 'I'm never doing THAT again"???

A FWS who is serious about "never doing that again" does not put herself into tempting situations.

I find it frustrating that we have to explain this logic to a BS who has been here for YEARS.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 04:33 PM
We probably are 'behind' where we should be in recovery.

I'm not blaming...just saying the last 3 years hfm had been in grad school.

In retrospect this probably left us nibbling at the edges of MB, and not time for in depth immersion.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 04:38 PM
Mel,

If you ask hfm, I feel that she would say one affair taught her enough lessons for a lifetime, that she is remorseful and humiliated about her actions, that she would not allow conditions that could cause an affair to exist, and that she is resolute that OM is not a danger to her or or marriage, and that she is firm in her never, ever destroying her life again by having another affair....with this OM or any other.

I think that's what she would say to you.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 04:40 PM
A person who is serious about "never doing it again" does not take risks with their recovery. You and your wife seem to imagine that will power will protect you. It hasn't protected you in the past and it won't protect you in the future. A SERIOUS WS does not place herself in tempting situations.

I am a recovering alcoholic with 29 years of sobriety. I don't tempt myself by hanging out in bars because I take my sobriety seriously. Do I feel "punished" because I can't go into bars? Hell no. I felt punished when I was struggling with alcoholism.

Didn't your wife feel "punished" when she had to deal the consequences of her affair? Didn't you feel "punished" when she was having an affair? So why would you set yourself up for punishment? That is insane.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 04:40 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Mel,

If you ask hfm, I feel that she would say one affair taught her enough lessons for a lifetime, that she is remorseful and humiliated about her actions, that she would not allow conditions that could cause an affair to exist, and that she is resolute that OM is not a danger to her or or marriage, and that she is firm in her never, ever destroying her life again by having another affair....with this OM or any other.

I think that's what she would say to you.

This is what my ex would say when I would be concerned about things he was doing...
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 04:41 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Mel,

If you ask hfm, I feel that she would say one affair taught her enough lessons for a lifetime, that she is remorseful and humiliated about her actions, that she would not allow conditions that could cause an affair to exist, and that she is resolute that OM is not a danger to her or or marriage, and that she is firm in her never, ever destroying her life again by having another affair....with this OM or any other.

I think that's what she would say to you.

What is your response? I would like to see your line by line response to this.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 04:46 PM

If this is your W's attitude, then I don't have much hope for your M.

Here's what Dr Harley said to a poster who wrote to him about her WH's going to co-ed AA meetings despite her objection:

(clipped)

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
I don't believe that the POJA is an option for marriage. I believe that it's essential for marriage. Those who do not follow that guideline face a lifetime of misery. That's because if spouses don't make their decisions with each other's feelings in mind, they end up trampling over each other's feelings, the way your husband has trampled over your feelings. If your husband feels that the POJA is something that can be violated occasionally, he'll have another affair, or do something else to ruin your life.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2418611

Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 04:50 PM
I feel that hfm does not believe it is 'taking a risk' with the marriage by taking this job.

And I feel she believes remaining stuck in a job she hates, and giving up a professional opportunity, is undue punishment for an act 4 Yeats ago that she is committed never to repeat.

Honestly, I'm speculating on her feelings, and only she can answer for herself.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 04:53 PM
My response is that I believe in and would like to follow MB program....that no matter how good we "feel" or "trust" in our marriage....due to the affair, our marriage will always and forever protections in place from that particular OM, and for threats to our marriage in general (possibility of either one of us having an affair).

That's my response.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 04:56 PM
I suppose that I need to examine what to do when you have a spouse engaged in independent behaviors.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 05:00 PM
Mel,

To your point...I feel hfm feels that there is or will not be any 'temptation' present by working there.

That the lessons learned from her affair left her without temptation for the OM or temptation for engaging in an affair ever again.

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 05:04 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Mel,

To your point...I feel hfm feels that there is or will not be any 'temptation' present by working there.

That the lessons learned from her affair left her without temptation for the OM or temptation for engaging in an affair ever again.

I think we pretty much GET IT that she is oblivious to the risk.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 05:06 PM
Is that uncaring or simply naivete on her (our) part I wonder.
Posted By: LongWayFromHome Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 05:17 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Is that uncaring or simply naivete on her (our) part I wonder.

Probably ignorance or a lack of understanding of how affairs start up.

My H had an affair many years ago. Our marriage did not follow the MB recovery path; we didn't know about MB and we went to an MC who guided us along the usual path of "recovery."

After my H recovered from a deep depression over this and felt better, he said vehemently that he had learned his lesson and that the grass wasn't greener anywhere else. He didn't mention that his A deeply hurt me, and, for some unfathomable reason, neither did I. But he was adamant that he would never do that to me again.

Yet, we still allowed business travel and that's when my H had a second affair. There are certain situations that are very tempting and those are what we all need to steer clear of. Saying that we have learned our lesson only to place ourselves in yet another tempting situation is playing chicken with the marriage.

EPs must make the marriage safe from temptation or there is no real recovery.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 06:18 PM
And when one does not feel the need for, or does not to establish or follow EPs, it is Independent Behavior.

I need to review SAA etc then, as to how one responds/ acts going forward in light of this and its effects on the marriage.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 06:38 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I want to learn this, I do.

So, an EP would be "not working in OMs county" from the get go.

An EP is not "once you take a job in the OMs county that I'm not enthusiastic about, here are things you can do to make me feel safer about it..."

Is this the MB approach?

Why do you keep mentioning the county line?
7 miles from OM home is too close.
That is why Harley recommends people MOVE out of state.
You refuse to do this and keep mentioning county lines.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 06:40 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Ok, to follow through...

If/when she accepts this job -- which we did not poja, is not up for poja -- she is not honoring an EP (not working in OMs county).

Even if SHE does not believe it does not need to be an EP, becasue SHE feels she/we are 'safe and secure and nothings going to happen'...or feels that the EP is dictating where she can or can't work, thus 'limiting' her professional happiness/growth...so long as it is an EP for ME...it's an EP. It just IS an EP, correct?

In this case, by breaking nthe EP, she is engaging in Independent Behavior, which may damage the marriage, according to Dr. Harley...may lead to sacrifice, resentment, etc...all bad things.


Your Extraordinary Precautions are not based on how you feel.
You had an affair in your marriage and don't know how to prevent or recover from an affair based on feelings.
That is why Dr. Harley wrote Surviving an Affair.
It is a program of recovery which must be followed, not a piecemeal program where you pick and chose what you like.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 06:41 PM
I am not enthusiastic about her working in the OMs county at all.

Whether that's 7, 17, or 70 miles away from his house.

I'd rather not have her work in that county; work in ours.

Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 06:43 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
"You two"....

I can insist all I want: I am not enthusiastic about you working in OMs county and that's an EP for me.

I know the answer is to follow the program.

The question is when, after all the 'insisting', one spouse believes the other is making an issue our of something that doesn't exist, and refuses or simply does not fundamentally believe in the EP, or abiding by the EP (ie 'you can't tell me where to work!')

If a wayward spouse refuses to follow the recovery plan in Surviving an Affair then you will not have a loving, fulfilling marriage.
I would file for divorce if she is unwilling to follow the program; life is too short to live in misery.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 08:54 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I suppose that I need to examine what to do when you have a spouse engaged in independent behaviors.

It is much more serious than this.

Your W has learned about MB, agreed to it and posted here for a while.

She KNOWS about POJA and EPs and rejects it when it does not allow her to do what she WANTS to do - same case as the Dr Harley quote I posted to you earlier today.

With this attitude, she will have another affair or make your M miserable with her thoughtless behavior.


Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 08:58 PM
Susie,

If we grant what you said to be an accurate summation of the current situation, what is a BS to do now in the process, according to MB/Dr. Harley? About handling IB and thoughtless behavior by a spouse?

What is the prescribed course of action besides consistent O&H about not being enthusiastic (following POJA) on the part of the spouse?

Posted By: SusieQ Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 08:58 PM
I don't buy for one second that she doesn't understand the risk and/or uncomfortableness for you involved with working at a hospital 5 miles from the OM.

She is an intelligent woman and KNOWS all about MB. Further her thread was FILLED with talk about triggers.

No, she wants the job so she is saying what she needs to say to get you to back off.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 09:01 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Susie,

If we grant what you said to be an accurate summation of the current situation, what is a BS to do now in the process, according to MB/Dr. Harley? About handling IB and thoughtless behavior by a spouse?

What is the prescribed course of action besides consistent O&H about not being enthusiastic (following POJA) on the part of the spouse?

The next time you have a conversation about the job I would let her know that if she takes that job it will be disregarding your feelings and a breach of EPs.

She knows MB lingo so you can tell her straight up that it will be a violation of EPs and POJA and that you are NOT okay with that.

THis must be done calmly and without AO & DJ.

You may want to consider doing this in writing. Dr Harley was just talking about that recently on the radio show...

If she takes the job anyway despite your firm and clear objection, I would plan for a separation.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 09:06 PM

HFD, for the umpteenth time, you two NEED the online program.

I was going through HFM last thread and she was complaining about being so unhappy then as well and it had nothing to do with her job that time. It was about her family, triggers and all kinds of other stuff.

I think she may need to be on ADs. And as Mel keeps pointing out, you two need to help getting this on track and making your marriage the number one priority.

Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/14/14 09:12 PM
I have said everything calmly, without an AO.

I have said:

*I wish you would remove that county all together as an option for work.
*I am not enthusiatic about you working in OMs county, or 7+ miles from his house.
*We have not POJA'd this decision. Can we negotiate options?
*I feel if you take this job you are putting our marriage at risk.
*I support you leaving the job you are unhappy at; I do not feel substituting this job at THIS location is a solution for the problem of your current job.
*I feel this decision is an IB and it hurts me.
*I feel this job would be a great opportunity for you -- located in any other place but that one!
*I said I do understand your frustration...and I, too, am upset. A great job comes along, and OF COURSE its in OMs county. Can't be in the other 4 counties surrounding us?!? It must be that one...


I think I have said all of those things, or close facsimile of, in every way, shape, and form.


I have helped and have offered to help in any way I can to find new employment or leave her current job. I am uncomfortable doing any action related to her accepting this new position, should she decide to do so.

All without any AO on my part.

Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 03:38 AM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Susie,

If we grant what you said to be an accurate summation of the current situation, what is a BS to do now in the process, according to MB/Dr. Harley? About handling IB and thoughtless behavior by a spouse?

What is the prescribed course of action besides consistent O&H about not being enthusiastic (following POJA) on the part of the spouse?

Since you don't want to move or follow the forum advice why don't you email Dr. Harley directly?

Here is a sample letter you could email to mbradio@marriagebuilders.com:

Dear Dr. Harley,

My wife and I are recovering from an affair she had 4 years ago.
We have read your books and are familiar with your concepts.
Although many posters on your Forum have encouraged us to move out of state, we have decided not to move until our kids finish school in a couple years.
Recently, my wife was offered a better job 7 miles from where her affair partner lives.
I am not enthusiastic about her taking this job but she has told me that she would never commit adultery again and would feel very rewarded in this job.
She wants to negotiate the Extraordinary Precautions with me using the POJA; However, the forum members have told me that the Extraordinary precautions you list in your book Surviving an Affair are not negotiable.
What do you suggest for our situation?

Sincerely,


Posted By: BrainHurts Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 05:11 AM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
The show aired Tuesday, October 29, 2013.

Sorry for wasting your valuable time.

Thanks anyway. Good night.
Here's the show.
Radio Clip of helpfordad's questions
Segment #2
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 11:01 AM
Who said I don't want...that I don't want to follow the forum advice?

I realize that we have decided NOT to move at this time, and that that decision is not following Dr. Harley's advice.

I am following the EPs, POJA, etc.

I am not the one deciding to engage in Independent Behaviors...although I guess I'm now free to since it doesn't seem to matter to the spouse.

What good is any of this program if only 1 has committed to follow it? Seems like common sense that a program designed for two in a marriage -- Interdependent -- won't work if one wants INdependence.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 11:02 AM
BH,

Thank you.

I have the show saved; just listened to it again this weekend.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 11:06 AM
Jedi,

I just emailed that now.

Thanks for the suggestion.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 01:32 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
What good is any of this program if only 1 has committed to follow it? Seems like common sense that a program designed for two in a marriage -- Interdependent -- won't work if one wants INdependence.

It won't work.
Dr. Harley's programs are based on the premise that each spouse will show extraordinary care and protection towards each other.
He addresses this in greater detail in his book Buyers Renters and Freeloaders.
But basically, your wife is kind of taking a renter mindset in her negotiations with you.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 02:21 PM
I spent a lot of time yesterday rereading Love Busters and SAA while trying to encourage her to brainstorm solutions agreeable to both of us. Some option between leaving her current job (of which I am enthusiastic) and going to this job (of which I am not). I tried this but had to walk away several times while she had AOs and talking became unpleasant.

She is insistent upon saying that she's never going to have an affair again, that she does not think she's putting the marriage at risk working there, and that I am, indeed, dictating to her where she can/can't work/controlling her ability to be professionally happy.

I feel she believes the EP as unnecessary, controlling, and rejects the idea that I get to set an EP (I believe we both do --I'm not driving around in a sports car because she is not enthusiastic about purchasing one).

She also stated that it would be I who was not supporting her, leaving her alone and lonely, not a partner with this job. She does not see it as she is acting independently, with HER moving away from ME...I am being a bad husband because I am not supporting her.

I have insisted that I understand and God how I wish this job presented anywhere else for her. It could be, could be a great opportunity, but while she says she feels 'nothing' about the location and doesn't even know or want to know how close it is to OMs house (she said to me "You researched it, you know how close, but I don't know or need to know), I worry that at some point I'll worry daily: "Is this the day OM works there...or comes in as a patient...or a family member of OM..."

Unless I am being irrational in my thinking, and embellishing the risk of this job location to her or our marriage.
Posted By: Aerith Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 02:21 PM
HFD,

In your post #281907 you said that you assume POSOM still lives in county Y...

Could you check it?

If he moved, then probably you won't object if your wife takes the job?




Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 02:34 PM
Originally Posted by Aerith
HFD,

In your post #281907 you said that you assume POSOM still lives in county Y...

Could you check it?

If he moved, then probably you won't object if your wife takes the job?

This would still be a bad idea.
It would create "emotional triggers" with him and his wife, to be in the same area or drive by the house where the affair partner lives/ lived.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 02:36 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I worry that at some point I'll worry daily: "Is this the day OM works there...or comes in as a patient...or a family member of OM..."

Unless I am being irrational in my thinking, and embellishing the risk of this job location to her or our marriage.

Well, let's go a step further.
She could have a flat tire and he could see her by the side of the road.
She could see him at a restaurant drive through, or pass him on the highway on the way to work.
This is all VERY possible.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 02:50 PM
I mean for the love of God...sex with a man NOT her husband occurred in that house!!! And the hospital is 7+ miles from it...it is IN THE VICINITY.

And that hospital is the closest hospital, his neighborhood hospital...I don't know if the POS is still a union carpenter after getting canned after exposure, and would be on a job there...and I don't know the odds of him or his family members being a patient at that exact hospital.

But canvassing the same byways...or gas stations...or whatever just feels too close for comfort.

But as long as hfm states that, to her, it's not a risk, that she has no feelings, that she's more worried or focused on regaining her professional happiness and utilizing her degree, that I am 'safe'...then that's what she believes and doesn't feel my feelings/worries/concerns should override what she wants or believes is untrue/irrational/embellished by me.

I think she feels she is "insulated" there - go directly to work, come directly home. Go directly to work, come directly home....

Somehow, I am to blame because having EPs is me "keeping the affair alive" to her?
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 03:04 PM
I do recognize that she's done a lot of things right to help restore the marriage, to try to make it better than pre-A, and follow the MB program.

It just feels there are events/incidents that run right into her 'Taker', and then it gets miserable.
Posted By: armymama Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 03:09 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
She is insistent upon saying that she's never going to have an affair again, that she does not think she's putting the marriage at risk working there, and that I am, indeed, dictating to her where she can/can't work/controlling her ability to be professionally happy.

I feel she believes the EP as unnecessary, controlling, and rejects the idea that I get to set an EP (I believe we both do --I'm not driving around in a sports car because she is not enthusiastic about purchasing one).

She also stated that it would be I who was not supporting her, leaving her alone and lonely, not a partner with this job. She does not see it as she is acting independently, with HER moving away from ME...I am being a bad husband because I am not supporting her.

These statements are the most concerning because a person that says them is the most at risk for an affair. Either your wife does not understand (hard to accept this because of your time here) or she is unwilling to demonstrate "care" for you. I am so sorry.

AM
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 03:09 PM
Sir, if you would have moved you wouldn't be facing this problem.
This is what MelodyLane has been posting to you: You have both decided to place other things, people, jobs etc above your marriage.
But marriage should be Number 1.
Posted By: armymama Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 03:11 PM
Originally Posted by Aerith
HFD,

In your post #281907 you said that you assume POSOM still lives in county Y...

Could you check it?

If he moved, then probably you won't object if your wife takes the job?

The issue is much bigger than this.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 03:23 PM
We are making our son completing his high school education at his current school a priority over moving at this time.

So, anything that results from that -- like dealing with this job location -- is on me and I suppose the answer is thus to just let her take it since that train has left the station until we move from the area and I'll just 'deal with it' the best I can.

Maybe I should just stop my protestations, apply whatever/as many EPs as I can as stated in the radio interview, and suck it up for a few more years until we move.

Obviously I can't expect to fix a situation I helped create in agreeing to not move at this time -- what's I expect, right? crap like this.

Just make the best of a bad situation, and hope it doesn't fall apart in the interim.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 03:43 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
She is insistent upon saying that she's never going to have an affair again, that she does not think she's putting the marriage at risk working there,

Even if working there didn't put the marriage at risk, it would still be devastating to you, emotionally.

I know what to tell a wife when her husband argues that she shouldn't feel hurt by what he is doing. I'm really not so clear on what to tell a husband when a wife does the same. I would say to stay carefully on point that her working there will make you unhappy.

Quote
and that I am, indeed, dictating to her where she can/can't work/controlling her ability to be professionally happy.

I would make it clear that she is free to make whatever decision she wants - but that you will be hurt each time she goes to that area, for work or for any other reason.

Is there any chance she will talk to Dr. Harley?
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 03:44 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
We are making our son completing his high school education at his current school a priority over moving at this time.

IMO you are prioritizing something of very little value over something of very high value. Your son can easily get a good high school education anywhere.

My father's family moved about three times during his high school years. He had his entire senior year in a high school he had never been to before. He was none the worse for wear!
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 03:45 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
We are making our son completing his high school education at his current school a priority over moving at this time.

It's time to recognize that this is a mistake!! Don't be enthusiastic about this any more.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 03:49 PM
Markos,

I've gotten frustrated, obviously, but NO AOs.

I am staying on point calmly, and just sharing my feelings, even when she thinks that me sharing my feelings is "telling her where she can/can't work".

I have emphasized that she controls her, ultimately it's her decision, but that it will hurt me if she's going there every day and engaging in this independent behavior.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 03:50 PM
Markos,

I truly appreciate and understand your opinion -- I'm an educator myself.

However, that decision has been made and agreed upon by both.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 04:01 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
However, that decision has been made and agreed upon by both.

That's not how the policy of joint agreement works. Making an agreement together doesn't mean you're making a suicide pact. If one of you later discovers that you are unenthusiastic about a plan, you should definitely not carry through on the plan!

The policy of joint agreement covers how you feel right now, not how you felt in the past.

Here's what Dr. Harley had to say about that to me in 2011:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=03332
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=03333
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=03334
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 04:03 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
However, that decision has been made and agreed upon by both.

There's some really interesting "But we had a POJA (or agreement)!" threads in Dr. Harley's private forum. Ultimately, this isn't a Marriage Builders principle, and if you incorporate it, you're not likely to have success.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 04:06 PM
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2472026#Post2472026

Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
Decisions made with enthusiastic agreement are almost always completed. When there is a problem with follow-through, it's usually because agreement, while looking enthusiastic, was actually reluctant. Even if a spouse agrees to something, and then doesn't follow through on it, the POJA encourages the other spouse to accept the change and go back to negotiating.

The way approach-avoidance conflicts work, the farther you are from a conflict, the more it's positive features affect us. But the closer we get to it, the more affected we are by it's negative features. The POJA doesn't hold you to a decision made at a distance. It encourages you to accept a change if new information, or new reactions, present themselves at a later date. I know that can be frustrating for someone assuming that a solution is in place, but human nature being what it is, if you really want your decisions to be win-win, you must not hold each other accountable for a decision that started out looking as if it was win-win, but ends up becoming win-lose from either spouse's perspective.

This decision turns out to be a lose for you hfd. It should be revisited.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by markos
Is there any chance she will talk to Dr. Harley?
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 04:40 PM
Markos,

It is a decision we have made for the present, and for the foreseeable future.

As far as I know, we are both unenthusiastic about moving at this time.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 04:48 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Markos,

It is a decision we have made for the present, and for the foreseeable future.

As far as I know, we are both unenthusiastic about moving at this time.

That decision is going to cost you your marriage.

Originally Posted by SusieQ
Originally Posted by markos
Is there any chance she will talk to Dr. Harley?
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 04:50 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Just make the best of a bad situation, and hope it doesn't fall apart in the interim.

I have never seen that kind of plan work.

It's clear that she already is emotionally detached from you enough to prioritize her career decisions over your feelings.

HFD, I don't know what to tell you, other than you guys need to be working the plan that works. This isn't it.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 04:51 PM
I can't predict the future.

I guess we'll see, and prepare for the "I told you so's"

Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 04:52 PM
If we've decided not to move, and that alone is so much an impediment, this issue regarding the job seems like a moot point...just going from a bad situation to 'badder'
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 04:58 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
If we've decided not to move, and that alone is so much an impediment, this issue regarding the job seems like a moot point...just going from a bad situation to 'badder'

Wouldn't it make more sense to go ahead and start making divorce arrangements? If you and your wife are both going to prioritize other things over your marriage, you're going to find there's not much of a marriage to put back together afterward.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/1773
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 04:59 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
If we've decided not to move, and that alone is so much an impediment, this issue regarding the job seems like a moot point...just going from a bad situation to 'badder'

What I don't understand is your reasoning for not moving. Just so your son can avoid switching schools? I see so little value in that - and so much value in saving your marriage.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 05:04 PM
I'm sorry you don't understand, and sorry we haven't changed our mind to move sooner -- yet.

We can stop debating a decision that's been made.

I understand all of your points, I understand Dr. Harley's advice, and I understand I want to move.

I also know we're not until child is graduated.

Since it seems the marriage is going to hell in a hand basket, generally, so long as we remain here, I'm figuring out that any question here or there in an effort to 'tweak' the marriage around the edges while a fundamental is not complete is a waste of time.

If the dam is broke, no difference if its a trickle or a torrent.

thank you.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 05:07 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
We can stop debating a decision that's been made.

Repeating myself, Marriage Builders doesn't advise sticking to decisions after it's been discovered they are a mistake for the husband or the wife.

Problems have got to be put on the front burner.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 05:22 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by SusieQ
Originally Posted by markos
Is there any chance she will talk to Dr. Harley?

HFD, is there a reason you aren't answering this?
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 05:26 PM
Because I'm in work and can only type between classes.

I have no idea if she'd speak with him.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 05:32 PM
I understand it may be a mistake to not move at this time.

I also understand that we are not moving at this time. I suppose any negative consequence from that decision is to be expected, and I really can't ascribe MB principles to anything else if this initial action isn't taken.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 05:37 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
We are making our son completing his high school education at his current school a priority over moving at this time.

This is absolutely true and it ceratinly shows that you have placed EVERYTHING before your marriage, which is why you have never recovered. You are sacrificing your MARRIAGE for your son's school when he can go to another school in another town that is just as good. Your sacrifice is INSANE. This is why you are here today, FOUR YEARS LATER, discussing the OM's house where your wife had sex with him.

I am not clear on how that benefits your son when your marriage does not recover and your wife has another affair. Is your son's highschool so important that you would actually risk another affair and a divorce?

I am just astonished that you don't care any more than that about your marriage.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 05:39 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I understand it may be a mistake to not move at this time.

I also understand that we are not moving at this time. I suppose any negative consequence from that decision is to be expected, and I really can't ascribe MB principles to anything else if this initial action isn't taken.

Do you know there are great schools in other towns? We have had hundreds of people MOVE and their children adapted just fine. But more importantly, the marriage recovered.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 05:40 PM
I guess I am deciding to put my son before my happiness with the marriage.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 05:43 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
We can stop debating a decision that's been made.
.

No we can't. Dr Harley recommends keeping such things on the front burner until it is resolved. This is NOT resolved, so we need to continue to discuss it.

Moving would resolve ALL of your problems. Your son could go to a GREAT high school, your wife could get a great job in a new place and you could have a recovered marriage.

Moving provides solutions to every issue brought up on this thread.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 05:45 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I guess I am deciding to put my son before my happiness with the marriage.


Actually you are not putting him first. It is more important for his family to be intact than it is to go to a certain high school. No matter what age, divorce is devastating. Her affair was devastating. And you are risking that all for nothing.

There is no benefit to anyone by staying there.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 05:45 PM
IT is in your son's best interest to be from a broken home?
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 05:48 PM
Mel,

We KNOW that. I know, it's stupid to all of you...we know that whatever issues may still be afflicting us - x,y, and z -- could be resolved by moving.

But yes, we have decided not to until son graduates in 2 years. Yes, we are sacrificing for his education at the top-rated state school district he attends.
(there are other reasons for not as well...)

And we are not ready to make the move now.

And I know it's futile for me to assume it's possible to just 'contain' these issues until the big move is made.

That's why I'm saying until we commit to it, we're just keeping ourselves from a full recovery, and keeping alive these issues that pop up here and there...
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 05:50 PM
I've put him through enough with the kind of person I was pre-A, and that we put him through with the affair and its aftermath.

I am the adult, he a child. I can suck it up and deal with life's unhappiness and disappointment and uncertainty for a few more years.

That's life in general, anyway.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 05:51 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I guess I am deciding to put my son before my happiness with the marriage.

I can't figure out why you would think that is a good choice for anyone. If you want the children to be happy, the marriage has to be given highest priority.

It's a little bit like prioritizing candy over vegetables in your son's diet and then saying that that is putting him first.

What you are doing is not benefiting your son.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 05:53 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I can suck it up and deal with life's unhappiness and disappointment and uncertainty for a few more years.

That's life in general, anyway.

Dr. Harley would pretty much disagree with all of that.

The idea that life is full of unhappiness and you just have to put up with it has caused all kinds of unnecessary marital breakdown, divorces, affairs, depressions, suicides. It's not true!

We need to show you and your wife how to learn how to build a fulfilling life and marriage - so that you can model this lesson for your son. Instead of teaching him that life sucks and you just have to put up with it.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 05:54 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Yes, we are sacrificing for his education at the top-rated state school district he attends.
(there are other reasons for not as well...)

It's a good way to avoid the conflict of talking about moving.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 05:56 PM
Well, he's excelling nonetheless.

It's obvious any of these side issues have no solutions -- any kind of EPs or POJA or whatever -- that align with MB so long as we remain where we are and haven't moved.

Once we move, then issues can be addressed fully the full 'faith and credit' of the MB program.

I hear you all, I understand you all, and I understand you disagree with our decision and think it a mistake.

So, I understand now it was really stupid of me to think I'd write here for a solution to a problem that's really caused by us moving.

Since I am part of the problem, I can't assume to get 'backing' for a MB solution that doesn't exist for the problem we're capitulating with.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 05:58 PM
Markos,

We have NOT avoided talk of moving.

We've looked at some states, looked at the maps, even researched home prices on Realtor.com.

We just happen to agree that we're not moving...whatever, tired of repeating myself. You know
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 06:19 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Since I am part of the problem

I keep noticing this phrase in your posts, and I can't figure out why. It doesn't make much difference whose fault it is, or who is "part of the problem." The point is to identify and solve the problems.

It sounds like when we try to point out the problems you feel guilty or feel blame? I would say that's very much irrelevant. The point is we want to help you overcome all of these problems, hfd. We are not here to say it is your fault or say "I told you so." We are here to help motivate you with peer support to fix the problems.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 06:25 PM
Markos,

I know. But I'm frustrated.

I am so aware of the peer support on this forum, and the goal to recover the marriage, and I do feel responsible because I know I, we, whatever are going straight into the headwind opposite that advice.

So I don't know that I/we really can do anything right now if the advice is to move, we know we have to move, we'd like to move, but we are not moving right now.

And I feel bad because then what the hell does it matter as I'm wasting all of your time trying for help to solve this stupid problem of where hfm works -- does it really matter if we're staying put?

Does 7 miles away really matter if we're staying 27 miles away and not moving at all? If moving away IS the solution -- and we are ignoring the solution -- then she might as well work there and we'll manage the situation and handle issues of contact if/when they arise.

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 06:35 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I've put him through enough with the kind of person I was pre-A, and that we put him through with the affair and its aftermath.

I am the adult, he a child. I can suck it up and deal with life's unhappiness and disappointment and uncertainty for a few more years.

That's life in general, anyway.

Apparently, he has not suffered enough if you are going to put him through the hell of his parents marriage breaking up. You are the adult and it is your job to protect him when you can. You know the risks now so you have no excuse,
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 06:40 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Markos,

I know. But I'm frustrated.

I am so aware of the peer support on this forum, and the goal to recover the marriage, and I do feel responsible because I know I, we, whatever are going straight into the headwind opposite that advice.

So I don't know that I/we really can do anything right now if the advice is to move, we know we have to move, we'd like to move, but we are not moving right now.

And I feel bad because then what the hell does it matter as I'm wasting all of your time trying for help to solve this stupid problem of where hfm works -- does it really matter if we're staying put?

Does 7 miles away really matter if we're staying 27 miles away and not moving at all? If moving away IS the solution -- and we are ignoring the solution -- then she might as well work there and we'll manage the situation and handle issues of contact if/when they arise.

HFD,

It's time to tell her that you made a mistake and you realize now how crucial it is to not live there any more. Just start the conversation.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 06:44 PM
I can't do that.

I know it is crucial to move, but I am not willing to do so until he's finished high school.

I'm sorry because I know that answer frustrates and disappoints you, and I'm sorry for wasting your time trying to solve the work issue, which really can't be solved without moving.

No 'nibbling around the edges' solution exists to the work issue that doesn't involve a move, so it doesn't really matter if she works there are not. The problems are the problems are the problems until we move.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 06:53 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I can't do that.

Sure you can!

Quote
I know it is crucial to move, but I am not willing to do so until he's finished high school.

But that decision works out terribly for him, for you, and for your wife. I'm not sure why you got the idea that him going to this specific school is so important. There is nothing he is getting there that he could not get elsewhere.

Quote
I'm sorry because I know that answer frustrates and disappoints you

It's your son, your marriage, and your life, hfd. I'm here to provide whatever help I can, and in this case I think the best thing I can do is let you know how this is likely to turn out and how you can make it turn out much better for everyone involved.

It sounds to me like you are being driven by a fatalistic philosophy that tells you life is full of disappointment. The philosophy is driving you to think it's normal to just accept disappointment in order to get things like education. But things could be so much better for you, hfd. And for your son. He would get so much more out of his parents having a successful happy marriage than out of any school.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 07:00 PM
Markos,

You're right. I can.

But I won't, I choose not to at this time, and realize there may be consequences.

I'd like to stop discussing the moving issue now, please.

And as for hfm work...that doesn't seem to matter as it pales to the bigger issue, moving.
Posted By: happyheart Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 07:03 PM
How many years will it take for your son to graduate? Because if it is a few more years, it might be better to move now, so that he does not have to move in his senior year. It will probably affect his school work much more, if his parents are quarreling and will eventually divorce.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 07:07 PM
He is a sophomore.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 07:39 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Does 7 miles away really matter if we're staying 27 miles away and not moving at all? If moving away IS the solution -- and we are ignoring the solution -- then she might as well work there and we'll manage the situation and handle issues of contact if/when they arise.

No, there isn't much difference between 7 miles and 27 miles. (except when you are running a 10k vs a marathon)...

I didn't know you only lived 27 miles away. That explains how you got hung up on where the county line was.

Just remember, an affair is like a drug and if she gets near that drug again it will probably destroy you emotionally this time.
There is another thread here from a man whose wife had an affair years ago...and now she's doing it again.
Unfortunately, this man is too weak physically and emotionally to fight it and his posts show it is killing him.
I hope the same doesn;t happen to you
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 07:42 PM
You mean a FWS can't learn, be redeemed, and KNOW that they will never go down that destructive path again?

They'd be willing to lose ANOTHER job, MORE salary, the physical and mental anguish, all over again.

A FWS never learns to not touch the hot stove after being burned once?
Posted By: living_well Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 07:51 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
You mean a FWS can't learn, be redeemed, and KNOW that they will never go down that destructive path again?

They'd be willing to lose ANOTHER job, MORE salary, the physical and mental anguish, all over again.

A FWS never learns to not touch the hot stove after being burned once?


I used to teach adult literacy. Many of my students were sent to us as part of their rehab when they had finished their prison sentences. All of them had been hard drug users and on the streets of NYC and said they absolutely would never ever go down that destructive path again. Broken people with permanently damaged bodies. The rehab was brilliant, they all knew what they had done wrong and none of them blamed anyone else for what had happened to them.

At least half of them did in fact land up back in prison because they had started to use again. Addiction is very, very powerful.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 07:53 PM
I don't think she even believes it was an 'addiction', that she's not addicted to this OM...that this was a one-off, out-of-character event in her life.

But I didn't mean to get off-topic, just was thinking out loud to the previous post.
Posted By: unwritten Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 07:54 PM
Even if you knew for a FACT that she would never ever have another A no matter what, you would still have trouble forgetting this one if you have triggers around every corner, wouldn't you?

Moving is also to eliminate triggers and get a 'fresh start' in a new place.

Have you ever talked about moving with your son? I have a daughter around the same age, she has a very strong social network of girls she has known since early childhood. We are moving, and she has the option of switching schools or open enrolling to her current one. She is surprisingly positive about potentially switching schools. Perhaps your son would be too. Have you asked him how he feels? I'm not saying he should drive the bus, just saying that you seem to assume a move would devastate him, and that is not necessarily the case.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 07:57 PM
I agree about him not driving the bus, but...yes, he heard or saw us researching homes in another state, and became visibly upset at the prospect of moving now.

He clearly stated he wished we would wait until he graduates high school before we move.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 07:58 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
You mean a FWS can't learn, be redeemed, and KNOW that they will never go down that destructive path again?

They'd be willing to lose ANOTHER job, MORE salary, the physical and mental anguish, all over again.

A FWS never learns to not touch the hot stove after being burned once?

It has nothing to do with being a FWS and everything to do with being a human. There is no difference between you and me and our FWWs. ALL of us would have an affair under some circumstances.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 07:59 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I agree about him not driving the bus, but...yes, he heard or saw us researching homes in another state, and became visibly upset at the prospect of moving now.

He clearly stated he wished we would wait until he graduates high school before we move.

There could be options for the two of you to move without him. I went to high school with some friends who did not live with their parents.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 08:00 PM
We choose not to move and be away from our son until he's finished with high school / away at college.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 08:06 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
We choose not to move and be away from our son until he's finished with high school / away at college.

hfd, we choose not to be enablers for you.

I choose to continue to remind you that your son going to a specific school has almost no value for his long term happiness, or yours.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 08:10 PM
Please know I do appreciate what you're trying to do. I do see the logic in it, and know it'll be better when we do eventually move.

That time will just not be now, and I'll have to learn to live with it, even if that means accepting her job location, sacrifice, etc. etc. for 2 more years.

I made it this far carrying the pain of what she did, I'll survive.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 08:14 PM
hfd, the really scary thing here is that it is clear she values her career over your feelings.

Are you guys following the rest of the Marriage Builders plan? She isn't acting like a (typical) woman who is in love.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 08:20 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Because I'm in work and can only type between classes.

I have no idea if she'd speak with him.

I really think the two of you should talk to him together on the radio show. Not writing a letter and having him answer - actually talking to him.

I don't think your M will survive it if she goes to that workplace. And even if you are able to get her to drop that plan, I don't think your M will survive if you guys don't start making some big changes.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 08:29 PM
Markos,

I really don't know anymore.

She's often depressed, rarely expresses happiness...sad about her mother's recent death and family issues. She hates her job, expresses just wanting to lay in bed most of the time.

We get our UA time, but conversation is okay until there's disagreement, then it deteriorates. Affection isn't bad...not much rec except for a walk a few times a week. S. fulfillment is there, but can be hit or miss -- that obviously took a hit after her A, and there is an area where I feel she's a Taker and not much of a Giver to me, which I have expressed to her. She doesn't seem as interested in what pleasure I get from it, just so long as she enjoyed it.

I mean, went out for dinner and live jazz the other night, enjoyed it a bit but she's often a downer...and obviously she was angry at me at the time for my position with the job, so she was distant to me. had to drag her out as she was moping in bed, fretting over her decision about this job.

She puts a lot of stock -- too much in my opinion -- in her job status and salary, like it determines her self-worth or something.

She is my best friend, been together since we were 15...I think she loves me, but maybe isn't 'in-love' with me, at least doesn't make me feel that way. I feel 'utilitarian' to her...a paycheck, good father, takes care of the house. Or, it's fleeting depending on her mood; everything can be 'great' until something gets her in a bad mood -- can be totally not marriage related -- and definitely feel she cares for herself and the kids more than she cares about me.

She does express at times that she wants to stay married to me, and will say "thank you for being my husband". It's just so up and down, emotionally.

I'm trying to make this work...most of the time things are okay. I get sad and embarrassed because if this is better than it was pre-A, and funny it really is, then our marriage must've been a complete disaster for years.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 08:30 PM
I think maybe we have a strong belief -- stubborn maybe -- that when we focus on something, we can get through anything.

Maybe its being na�ve at this point.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 08:32 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Markos,

I really don't know anymore.

She's often depressed, rarely expresses happiness...sad about her mother's recent death and family issues. She hates her job, expresses just wanting to lay in bed most of the time.

We get our UA time, but conversation is okay until there's disagreement, then it deteriorates. Affection isn't bad...not much rec except for a walk a few times a week. S. fulfillment is there, but can be hit or miss -- that obviously took a hit after her A, and there is an area where I feel she's a Taker and not much of a Giver to me, which I have expressed to her. She doesn't seem as interested in what pleasure I get from it, just so long as she enjoyed it.

I mean, went out for dinner and live jazz the other night, enjoyed it a bit but she's often a downer...and obviously she was angry at me at the time for my position with the job, so she was distant to me. had to drag her out as she was moping in bed, fretting over her decision about this job.

She puts a lot of stock -- too much in my opinion -- in her job status and salary, like it determines her self-worth or something.

She is my best friend, been together since we were 15...I think she loves me, but maybe isn't 'in-love' with me, at least doesn't make me feel that way. I feel 'utilitarian' to her...a paycheck, good father, takes care of the house. Or, it's fleeting depending on her mood; everything can be 'great' until something gets her in a bad mood -- can be totally not marriage related -- and definitely feel she cares for herself and the kids more than she cares about me.

She does express at times that she wants to stay married to me, and will say "thank you for being my husband". It's just so up and down, emotionally.

I'm trying to make this work...most of the time things are okay. I get sad and embarrassed because if this is better than it was pre-A, and funny it really is, then our marriage must've been a complete disaster for years.
Good grief, this is horrendous. A marriage that far into recovery shouldn't be anything like this!

I can't read the whole thread and your history right now. Is she in treatment for depression?
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 08:33 PM
No, she is not.

I don't know how comfortable I am sharing her medical history here.

That may be for her to discuss.
Posted By: hopefulwife47 Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 09:03 PM
Gosh, she sounds depressed. Does she enjoy your UA time? Are you doing things she enjoys doing????? It doesn't sound like it. I think she sounds trapped...trapped into staying married. What activities would make her excited... She needs to be in a doctor.
Posted By: SugarCane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 09:29 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I don't know how comfortable I am sharing her medical history here.
I'm not asking you to do that. I didn't want to give redundant advice if she is already being treated for depression.

My suggestion is to get her to see a doctor about the behaviours you describe.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 09:53 PM
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I don't know how comfortable I am sharing her medical history here.
I'm not asking you to do that. I didn't want to give redundant advice if she is already being treated for depression.

My suggestion is to get her to see a doctor about the behaviours you describe.

She was complaining about depression on her thread in Feb/March of 2013 and it had nothing to do with the job at that time. She was advised to go on ADs and said that she would look into it.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 09:55 PM

hfd,

They read your email on the show today. If you have the app, it's at about 41:00.

Did you listen? Did you have your W listen?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 10:08 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
You mean a FWS can't learn, be redeemed, and KNOW that they will never go down that destructive path again?

They'd be willing to lose ANOTHER job, MORE salary, the physical and mental anguish, all over again.

A FWS never learns to not touch the hot stove after being burned once?

Yes, of course they learn!! But it seems your wife has not learned anything since she is putting herself in a tempting position again. Who does that??? crazy A recovered wayward does not do that. She has not learned her lesson and neither have you.

It is shocking to see a betrayed spouse who is this clueless. I am astonished.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 10:24 PM
She is not on ADs.

I do not have the app; I'll have to wait for the rebroadcast.

I am not clueless, just frustrated.

Thank you.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 11:09 PM
That last post that I posted indicates that you are clueless and don't understand the nature of affairs. I feel like I am speaking to a new guy. Honestly.

You can download the app in about 2 seconds and listen to it.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 11:12 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
A FWS never learns to not touch the hot stove after being burned once?


This is a very irrational statement given the fact that your wife wants to touch the hot stove again. She wants to burn you again. And this is something that Dr Harley mentioned today, that there is a decided lack of empathy and understanding about the damage the affair caused to you. Your wife does not get it all and is willing to do it again.
Posted By: armymama Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 11:32 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by helpfordad
A FWS never learns to not touch the hot stove after being burned once?


This is a very irrational statement given the fact that your wife wants to touch the hot stove again. She wants to burn you again. And this is something that Dr Harley mentioned today, that there is a decided lack of empathy and understanding about the damage the affair caused to you. Your wife does not get it all and is willing to do it again.

Sadly, yes.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/15/14 11:41 PM
Mel,

I understand the nature of affairs...I don't know that she does, or feel "over"secure that it can't/won't happen again.

Again, hfm can speak for yourself; these are just my observations and thoughts.

I don't have a smartphone to download the app.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/16/14 12:04 AM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Mel,

I understand the nature of affairs...I don't know that she does, or feel "over"secure that it can't/won't happen again..

This tells me you don't get it:
Quote
ou mean a FWS can't learn, be redeemed, and KNOW that they will never go down that destructive path again?

They'd be willing to lose ANOTHER job, MORE salary, the physical and mental anguish, all over again.

A FWS never learns to not touch the hot stove after being burned once?
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/16/14 01:02 AM
I understand.

That's just my way....to think out loud to get my head around things, from all angles, approaches, and experiences.

If HFM believes that she would never, ever touch the hot stove again, if she is resolute that she'd never walk down that path of destruction again, then she is na�ve to the power/ability of an affair? And could explain why she seems lax about precautions/protections?

All of this just really, really sucks and I hate it all...the affair, the OM, my pain.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/16/14 01:15 AM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
If HFM believes that she would never, ever touch the hot stove again, if she is resolute that she'd never walk down that path of destruction again, then she is na�ve to the power/ability of an affair? And could explain why she seems lax about precautions/protections?

People who have affairs are ones who believe they are immune. Because they believe they are immune, they don't take precautions.

Dr Harley mentioned when reading your email today that she seems to have no understanding of the damage she has caused and doesn't have any empathy. She is more worried about a job than putting you through holy hell again.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/16/14 01:17 AM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
That's just my way....to think out loud to get my head around things, from all angles, approaches, and experiences.

To have irrational thoughts? I don't think reason is your friend and I don't say that unkindly. I think it is good to think things through, but not good to be irrational. You have had YEARS to understand the dynamics of an affair, yet you don't understand it.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/16/14 02:14 AM
Maybe what I'm trying to understand or trying to accept, is that hfm either really does not understand the damage she did to me....or does understand, but doesnt have empathy for me for it. Or understands, but that empathy does not extend any further than her own feelings. What other options are there?

And in a way I can see that....while I would never say she feels 'justified' for what she did, I always feel that she is firm that there were, hmmmm...reasons? and she believes those reasons to be valid (eg. I was a bad husband, she was unhappy...)

And you really can't teach empathy...she either gets it or she doesn't, right?
Posted By: BlindSighted2013 Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/16/14 02:44 AM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
If HFM believes that she would never, ever touch the hot stove again, if she is resolute that she'd never walk down that path of destruction again, then she is na�ve to the power/ability of an affair? And could explain why she seems lax about precautions/protections?
hfd, yes, and it is odd when someone would be so lackadaisical about (again) stepping so close to the fire.

Let me put it this way�

my H also says that it is the worst thing that ever happened, and that he would never walk down that path again, AND that it is ugly and sick to even remember�.

BUT�

�the difference is that SINCE he never wants to re-visit the worst time in his life, that is why he is purposefully adhering to EPs AND tightening them so that every possible leak is closed.

Do you see?

I'm not going to knock your wife, because Dr. H has stated that many a WW don't show any remorse until recovery is complete and you are back in love. From what you've said today, recovery is definitely not complete.

So�what can we do to help you to begin to recover your M? You do still want to recover? In which case the talk of cognitive dissonance to somehow talk yourself into accepting her desire to take this position really must be off of the table. YOU have to draw a line and take it off the table! It's an EP so you are allowed to do that!

I have to ask, do you really think that your W would accept this position without your approval?

I think that is what we all should be addressing to help you the most (if you think that is what you are facing).

I did not yet listen to the radio show today, sorry, but we will listen tomorrow. smile
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/16/14 02:56 AM
Blind,

I don't believe she accepts the notion that I, as the BS, get to establish the EPs.

To her, that is controlling, unnecessary, and a 'power' that she does not accept that I have 'over' her.

I sense she thinks "because he was a bad husband Pre-A, he is not afforded any special powers Post-A". That SHE will be in charge of HER conditions.

Oh, and yes...she will accept this position in spite of my feelings. This is a job she wants. Period.
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/16/14 04:09 AM
SusieQ,

I agree 100%. I think they ought to go even farther and consult directly with Dr. Harley. Their marriage is floundering badly!

HFD, I am going to be harsh = your marriage IS floundering badly! You have now spent several days and lots of time here for not good reason as far as I can tell. All you have accomplished is to resurrect the affair and the OM by acquiescing to your W and by toying with the idea that you can assume the risk of another affair by not moving. The both of you seem to be walking on eggshells with each other. You keep mentioning that you are in recovery - WRONG. Your marriage is floundering badly = and by all this discussion of the affair with your wife after all this time you've succeeded in brining her OM back dab smack right into your living room!. You have probably dragged the timeline back closer to D-Day than you realize. You say that you are 'all in' for keeping your son in the same high school for the next two years, and that is the reason for not moving. That is b.s.! I think that your son is more concerned about the shaky condition of the M of his mom and dad than the school he could attend. He is probably afraid to express this to you.

It's very telling that your mention of your date night at the jazz performance resulted in you and your wife not talking and her getting upset with you. Is that progress? No. It tells me that her insistence of overriding your concern about the location of her new job she doesn't care for your welfare or feelings in this marriage. I think that both of you are unhappy and resentful. As I recall, your W refused to write and send a no-contact letter to the OM. So, now it seems she is continuing to attempt to manipulate you again.

No one is losing sleep over your arguments and your resistance to the MB program. Rather, I think most of us feel sad that you insist on continuing with Plan HFD,

I do have another concern. You mention your wife is languishing in bed and seems depressed, You also mentioned that she is not on any medication. These are signs that she is suffering from depression. I am not an expert, but I have been trained in crisis intervention and in counseling for a ministry at my church, and my wife has suffered from chronic depression for a number of years, so I do feel I feel that I can appreciate the importance of you taking action of getting your wife in to a psychiatrist (BOT a counselor) for a diagnosis. But, you seem to be just standing on the sideline and using her depression as a justification for concern action. How is that working for you HFD.

Tom




Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/16/14 11:06 AM
I/we have spoken about it for years, about seeking help and/or meds.

She chooses not to take medications for depression or anxiety or moods.

It is her body; I cannot force pills down her.
Posted By: mrEureka Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/16/14 02:57 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I don't think she even believes it was an 'addiction', that she's not addicted to this OM...that this was a one-off, out-of-character event in her life.
The most dangerous addicts are those that believe they have their addictions under control.

Dr. Harley responded to your email in yesterday's show. What did you think about what he said?
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/16/14 03:02 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Mel,

I understand the nature of affairs...I don't know that she does, or feel "over"secure that it can't/won't happen again.

Again, hfm can speak for yourself; these are just my observations and thoughts.

I don't have a smartphone to download the app.

Then find some way to listen to the show instead of just saying it is impossible. You are never going to make it if you don't start taking some initiative to educate yourself.

I don't have a smartphone either. I have a crappy little $15 MP3 player from Wal-Mart that I use in the car. That little device (and its predecessors) saved my marriage! Personally, I needed hundreds of hours of education to figure this out. Hopefully I am a little slower than the average guy and most people don't need that much - but however much you need you will NEVER get it by just posting on the forum every so often.

SOLVE problems instead of STOPPING at problems.

Whatever happened to you guys doing the Marriage Builders program? Your wife was enthusiastic. If you don't strike while the iron is hot, you miss a brilliant opportunity.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/16/14 03:04 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I/we have spoken about it for years, about seeking help and/or meds.

She chooses not to take medications for depression or anxiety or moods.

It is her body; I cannot force pills down her.

The number one cause of depression for women is an unsatisfying relationship with her husband.

From your description, it is clear that UA time isn't the highlight of her week or the time she is best happy and gets to escape from it all with her husband. That helps to explain why there's such a huge emphasis on making her career more fulfilling - she is looking for that fulfillment somewhere!
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/16/14 03:05 PM
UA time has absolutely got to be a time of escape and delight and relaxation for a wife and has got to be better than anything else she does during the week. She has got to be so happy she feels like a hedonist.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/16/14 03:06 PM
Originally Posted by markos
UA time has absolutely got to be a time of escape and delight and relaxation for a wife and has got to be better than anything else she does during the week. She has got to be so happy she feels like a hedonist.

Unfortunately, adopting a belief that sometimes you just have to do without for a few years totally prevents this, and the program will never work.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/16/14 03:08 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Maybe what I'm trying to understand or trying to accept, is that hfm either really does not understand the damage she did to me....or does understand, but doesnt have empathy for me for it. Or understands, but that empathy does not extend any further than her own feelings. What other options are there?

And in a way I can see that....while I would never say she feels 'justified' for what she did, I always feel that she is firm that there were, hmmmm...reasons? and she believes those reasons to be valid (eg. I was a bad husband, she was unhappy...)

And you really can't teach empathy...she either gets it or she doesn't, right?

None of this is a step in the recovery plan.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/16/14 03:09 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Mel,

I understand the nature of affairs...I don't know that she does, or feel "over"secure that it can't/won't happen again..

This tells me you don't get it:
Quote
ou mean a FWS can't learn, be redeemed, and KNOW that they will never go down that destructive path again?

They'd be willing to lose ANOTHER job, MORE salary, the physical and mental anguish, all over again.

A FWS never learns to not touch the hot stove after being burned once?

Yep - understanding would mean realizing that ALL of us would do that in that situation. It is NEVER safe to go back into that situation. The idea that it's okay to go back because the WS has "learned" shows a misunderstanding of how affairs are not something that only some people are susceptible to or that you can learn to resist.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/16/14 03:11 PM
I am waiting for the link from MB...will be listening to it today.

I can't force her to access the forum; I have stated repeatedly I'd love it if she at least READ the forum, as she I think is done with posting on it.

I think the online program could be beneficial, but choosing to spend $1,000 independent of her enthusiasm for spending $1,000 doesn't seem logical.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/16/14 03:11 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
If HFM believes that she would never, ever touch the hot stove again, if she is resolute that she'd never walk down that path of destruction again, then she is na�ve to the power/ability of an affair? And could explain why she seems lax about precautions/protections?

The reason she is lax about precautions is because her marriage is unfulfilling and she just DOESN'T CARE. After four years of talking about precautions and affairs but not BUILDING A GREAT MARRIAGE it is probably clear to her that that will be put off indefinitely and will never happen. Precautions didn't get her the marriage she always needed, and Marriage Builders always seemed to be about repayment for the affair instead of building a great marriage, so what did Marriage Builders ever actually do that benefited her? NADA. ZIP. ZERO. ZILCH.

There is nothing at all in it for her, so why should she follow any MB principles?
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/16/14 03:14 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I am waiting for the link from MB...will be listening to it today.

The rebroadcast is on now; I have no idea why you need to wait for a link.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4200_radio.html
http://streamer.marriagebuilders.com:8001/prerecorded.m3u

Quote
I can't force her to access the forum; I have stated repeatedly I'd love it if she at least READ the forum, as she I think is done with posting on it.

I can't see any reason why she would want to post on the forum or do anything else regarding Marriage Builders. There's nothing in it for her; it's only all about you. All it does is remind her of her affair, because you act like Marriage Builders is only about affairs instead of building a great marriage.

Quote
I think the online program could be beneficial, but choosing to spend $1,000 independent of her enthusiasm for spending $1,000 doesn't seem logical.

She was enthusiastic a year ago!!! Don't EVER let an opportunity like that pass again.

Meanwhile, win back your reluctant wife. Start listening to the radio show and learning how to do that.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/16/14 03:17 PM
I'm sorry, but...I've eliminated AOs, I initiate the Rec Comp (she'd just lay in bed all day), I am a great listener/conversation, and the Sexual Fulfillment is not as often as I'd like, or as fulfilling for me as it seems for her...I give her affection...

I'm really sick and tired of this -- you try living with a person who you have to prop up CONSTANTLY...who is always apologizing for how needy she is...I do EVERYTHING in this house...the food shopping, the cooking, the cleaning...during her affair, while she was in grad school I carried this family...

She hates her profession -- never liked it from the get go, parents forced her into it -- dysfunctional family, always drama and angst...depressed, anxious...either won't take meds, or gets a prescription and weans herself off of it when she gets tired of taking it...

Wouldn't write a NC letter to end the affair, fought changing her contact information...refused to leave the job where she had her affair...attempted to contact OM a year after affair ended...rejects the idea that the BS actually can set the EPs...wants to negotiate EPs...is OK with independent behavior...

And I AM the reason she's depressed?

Than I must be CLINICAL in mine.

Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/16/14 03:21 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I sense she thinks "because he was a bad husband Pre-A, he is not afforded any special powers Post-A". That SHE will be in charge of HER conditions.

Of course she is supposed to be in charge of her conditions. Marriage Builders is a plan for joint control.

YOU have to take the initiative to create a situation that is a WIN for her, as well as being a win for you.

She should be selfish, and you should reinforce that as being a good thing. Neither of you should be selfish to the point that you want to benefit at the other's expense, though, so of course her taking that job is off of the table.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/16/14 03:23 PM
Christ I must be unclear in what I'm writing...

For the love of all that is good: I WANT IT TO BE JOINT!

I WANT TO FOLLOW MB TO RESTORE THE MARRIAGE!

I AM NOT THE ONE ARGUING/FIGHTING FOLLOWING EPS OR POJA!!!!

I AM NOT THE ONE WHO IS OKAY MAKING A DECISION IN SPITE OF MY SPOUSE'S FEELINGS.

I'm going to listen now.

I can't stay here defending MY actions because I have a spouse reluctant to work the program.

Maybe I need to follow her lead and give this forum a rest.

All of you have a good day.
Posted By: black_raven Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/16/14 03:23 PM
HFD,

I have refrained from posting until now. I think you should prepare for separation if your WW chooses to take the job. IMO she is acting like an ungrateful brat!! That she is guilting you over this job AT ALL shows that you are not her priority. Four years later she still doesn't care, is clueless and/or insensitive.

Sorry you are struggling.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/16/14 03:24 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I'm really sick and tired of this -- you try living with a person who you have to prop up CONSTANTLY...who is always apologizing for how needy she is...

It is not going to get better until both of you accept that her needs are valid, and they get met. Not her washing the dishes needs - her being swept off of her feet needs. The UA time you described is not sweeping her off of her feet, and the "propping up" you are describing in this post is definitely not going to do that. So stop SACRIFICING to meet needs that aren't going to win her, and start WINNING her in a way that you ENJOY.

Quote
Wouldn't write a NC letter to end the affair, fought changing her contact information...refused to leave the job where she had her affair...attempted to contact OM a year after affair ended...rejects the idea that the BS actually can set the EPs...wants to negotiate EPs...is OK with independent behavior...

Kind of like how you have fought us at every turn.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/16/14 03:26 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/16/14 03:27 PM
At least me, HFD, I am HERE...HERE, trying to learn.

I interact with you, ask questions, strive to get it right.


Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/16/14 03:28 PM
Black Raven,

Thanks for your understanding.

I appreciate it.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/16/14 03:30 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Markos,

I really don't know anymore.

She's often depressed, rarely expresses happiness...sad about her mother's recent death and family issues. She hates her job, expresses just wanting to lay in bed most of the time.

You have got to save her from this, and it won't come by doing the dishes or keeping your son in school.

Quote
We get our UA time, but conversation is okay until there's disagreement, then it deteriorates. Affection isn't bad...not much rec except for a walk a few times a week.

This sounds completely lackluster. The ONE thing that would have motivated her to realize she could get something out of Marriage Builders, and it sounds totally, utterly sucky. Nothing there for her, and that's the good part of Marriage Builders, so why would she have any interest in the parts of Marriage Builders that benefit you?

No reason to even mention sexual fulfillment, since that's not a typical need of most wives, and definitely not a top need for a wife in withdrawal.

There is no reason to expect that she is going to be interested in your feelings, your fulfillment, or your cares until her marriage is fulfilling for her.

She's not getting anything out of this. Maybe clean dishes, but that's it.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/16/14 03:32 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
At least me, HFD, I am HERE...HERE, trying to learn.

But not very hard. How many hundreds of hours of that radio show have gone by since you joined? Hundreds of hours of free classes you could have been learning in.

For a husband proclaiming how much more interested he is in learning than his wife is, you sure seem to be passing up some of the most important educational opportunities.

Radio show > Forum

Quote
I interact with you, ask questions, strive to get it right.

You argue with us at every turn and avoid following up on nearly every suggestion we make.

But because you at least post on the forum, that shows you are sincere, unlike your bad guy wife who isn't even interested in doing that. Yay. You win.

Arguing on the forum is supposed to prove you are interested in learning???
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/16/14 03:32 PM
Sexual Fulfillment is her top need.


She's very quick when having an AO to tell me that that's mainly why she hopped into another bed.

Thanks a lot.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/16/14 03:33 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I AM NOT THE ONE ARGUING/FIGHTING FOLLOWING EPS OR POJA!!!!

The hell you're not. You're the loudest voice here protesting one of the most important EPs: moving!
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/16/14 03:33 PM
You win.

I appreciate all you've done.

I thank you.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/16/14 03:34 PM
Your whole point in posting seems to be to prove yourself the good guy and your wife the bad guy.

Yay. You win. You're the good guy.

Won't get you a fulfilling marriage, though, and it won't get you a wife that cares about you.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/16/14 03:36 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
You win.

I don't want to win. I want YOU to win a good marriage. But you can't do that as long as you are focused on proving yourself the good guy and your wife the bad guy. You can't do that until you actually expend the effort that it takes.

The opportunity has been sitting in front of you for four years. From the day you joined you have argued against taking every step that would have saved your marriage.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/16/14 03:36 PM
I posted to find out how to get my wife to NOT work at a place 7 miles from where her OM lives.

Not to be right.

Enjoy your day.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/16/14 03:38 PM
[quote=helpfordad]I interact with you, ask questions, strive to get it right./quote]

You strive to cut corners and to keep people from reminding you that this is going to lead to disaster.

You strive to get conversation here instead of information. If I'm reading correctly you haven't even listened to your question from yesterday on the radio show?
Posted By: SusieQ Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/16/14 03:59 PM

If I am reading between the lines, I think I know the answer but I want to ask anyway:

Will your W listen to what Dr Harley had to say in responding to your email? Have you asked her?

Would she be willing to go on the radio show with you to talk to him? Have you asked her?
Posted By: BlindSighted2013 Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/16/14 05:09 PM
Hi hfd, we have listened to your show now, and I'm anxious to hear what YOU think about Dr. H's response?

I agree greatly with what Markos has been saying today regarding courting your wife. wink

However, if you are suggesting that your wife has always been depressed, that will need fixed first as I'm sure that you realize.

Like Susie just asked, HAVE you asked your wife to listen to the radio show with you? She just may say yes, you never know�but if you don't ask her, then the outcome will surely be that she doesn't listen to the show.

Same with EPs. I'm not really clear on just how far away IS the "OMs county"? I agree with others who have said that it matters not if he even still lives there, neither of you need that trigger. But anyway, how far away IS it from where you live now?

Back to the EPs�.what are YOU willing to do if your wife does take this job? Are you willing to separate at that point? Or are you wishing to just remain married and put up with it for the next however many years?

If you are willing to put up with it, please tell us hfd. So many people are here posting to your thread and caring about you and your marriage!

If you are willing to separate if she takes this job, then you need to give your wife that information now. Share with your wife that you are distressed that you are four years into this recovery and you two are not yet passionately in love with each other. Share just how much you want to have the best M ever, but that the foundation must begin with EXTRAORDINARY Precautions. Tell her that traveling anywhere into OMs county is forever more a bad zone, and that you must have her agreement to stick to the EPs in order for you to continue in the marriage.

If this is your feeling, then while you're add it, I think that you should firm up all other EPs. Review your original list, add to it in writing, and both of you commit to sticking to the EPs again.

Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/16/14 06:34 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I can suck it up and deal with life's unhappiness and disappointment and uncertainty for a few more years.

That's life in general, anyway.

I think the fundamental problem here is that you believe that life fundamentally involves sacrifice. Either your wife has to sacrifice on the career issue, or you will. You're not looking for a win-win solution, because that's life, and your Giver is happy to be the one to just put up with this a few years. But it will build your resentment - your emotions will keep score, and you will be looking for her to make a corresponding sacrifice down the road.

Just like you did so much to carry the family and are now feeling distraught that she is not willing to sacrifice.

You stop short of a full analysis of your available options because it seems so normal to just settle for somebody having to sacrifice. That's life.

Marriage Builders says - NO IT'S NOT! Life is not like that! Don't put up with that, and don't expect your spouse to put up with it, either.

Life is not like that. Life is good, and the tools here show you how to make it good.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/16/14 06:36 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I've put him through enough with the kind of person I was pre-A, and that we put him through with the affair and its aftermath.

So your son had to sacrifice, so now you feel it is fair for you to sacrifice for him.

You are completely not considering any possibility of a win-win solution between you and your son. There are other alternatives you are not even looking for, alternatives he would be just as happy with but that do not require you to live in affair triggers for THREE more long years. (It's clear four years have nearly destroyed your marriage. I shudder to think what the next three will do.)
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/16/14 06:45 PM
I just listened to your letter which was addressed on the Radio Show.
I think that Dr. Harley's position is pretty clear.
It's your life to live helpfordad.
Personally, I don't ever want to be around any possibility of adultery and I would file for divorce if in your shoes.
Posted By: Prisca Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/16/14 06:51 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
You win.

I appreciate all you've done.

I thank you.

How is the fit working out for you? Feeling better?
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 02:18 AM
HFD,

Based on your post, my opinion is that you would be well advised to enroll in telephone counseling with the Harleys. When you say that she refuses to take her medication or weans herself off, it indicates to me that there is a past diagnosis of chronic depression or manic-depression that she refuses to accept or treat. I think the Harleys could give you sound advice as well as referrals.

My wife suffered from manic-depression (bi-polar) for quite a long time, and at times she had the same behavior as your wife does - malaise, lack of interest, very poor sense of self-worth. She was under the care of a very good psychiatrist, took her meds, and for the most part we did very well. There were times that I felt I had to 'carry' things when she was going into an episode. I learned early on that the answer for those times as NOT to prop her up and be a martyr, but to make sure she was evaluated and had the proper medication.

You both seem to be miserable in your M. In great part I think it's due to your resistance to accepting help and proceeding with Your plan. You've already spent 23 pages and several hours of 'consulting' here, and you're not better off than you were 23 pages ago. What do you have to lose by getting expert counseling from the Harleys?

Tom



Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 11:00 AM

She informed me this morning that she did, indeed, accept the position yesterday.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 11:41 AM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
She informed me this morning that she did, indeed, accept the position yesterday.

Make sure you have a GPS unit on her car and ideally some spyware on her phone.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 11:50 AM
Oh, yeah, after all the angst regarding the decision itself, that's going to go over well.

This is not going to end well.

Posted By: mrEureka Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 01:01 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
She informed me this morning that she did, indeed, accept the position yesterday.
She places her job before your marriage. You place your son's happiness in school before your marriage. Not so different, is it?

You really only have a few practical choices. You can either separate and ultimately divorce, be miserable for the rest of your life, or start putting your marriage first and move far away now.

Posted By: BlindSighted2013 Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 01:12 PM
hfd, I am really sorry.

Logically, you have two choices:

1) Calmly let her know that if she chooses to actually go to that job, **EDIT** you will be filing for separation. Remind her that you do very much wish to have a passionate marriage with her, and that you are willing to do whatever it takes to get that, as long as she agrees to stick to EPs and POJA and RH.

2) Accept that she is intending to do whatever she feels like, no EPs, independent behavior whenever she chooses, **EDIT**.

I suppose that you could put the snoop stuff in place and then plan A her again like crazy. I don't see that working well at all though, and I think that TODAY you should email Dr. H again with this news.

You don't TELL her that you put a GPS on her car or spyware on her phone. You just do it. I am sooooo hoping that you do have all of her passwords.

Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 01:14 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Oh, yeah, after all the angst regarding the decision itself, that's going to go over well.

This is not going to end well.

Well, Dr. Harley suggested the GPS and spyware if she was going to take the job.
It is the only thing that can give you some comfort. I would NOT POJA the GPS with her, just do it secretly.
As Harley said, he could always come to her or they could meet at a gas station etc.

I really think that your marriage is over and you should seriously consider separation.
Your son is probably old enough to decide where he wants to live.
I think you should see an attorney, tell the attorney that you want to separate and protect your custody rights to your son. Ask for instructions. Tell the attorney that you would like the son to live with you.

And start preparing for Plan B.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 01:19 PM
There is no 'legal separation' in PA; it's either married or divorced.


If I choose to stay married for convenience, I need to be radically honest with her and let her know I will be staying only through my son's graduation.

I am going to hurt every day she goes to that job.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 01:44 PM
Yea, I'm not talking about legalities.
I refer to separation that would maintain your custody rights.
If it's divorce then it's divorce.

I also had to file for divorce because my attorney recommended it to preserve custody.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 01:46 PM
So I have to decide if I want to end a marriage over a job?
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 01:46 PM
Also, my cousin did what you are planning on doing.
He stayed married until his youngest son graduated and then immediately moved out and filed for divorce.
But it wasn't really healthy for him because he ended up getting a girlfriend before the divorce was finalized.

From watching him, I can tell you that your existence will be miserable and you aren't helping your son.

My cousin went no contact with his ex and told me he enjoys life now, whereas before he was miserable due to her cheating and active alcoholism.

You are not setting a good example for your son
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 01:47 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
So I have to decide if I want to end a marriage over a job?

You know damn well this is more than a job issue
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 01:48 PM
It's just all lousy. Sorry.

*sigh*
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 01:56 PM
Here is your show.
Radio Clip of helpfordad's show
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 01:57 PM
I listened to it yesterday.

Thanks, BH.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 01:59 PM
I encourage you to send another email to Dr. Harley.
He will remember your case since you were just on. I think you could really use his input on this and he has told you to contact him with further questions.
You may want to give him your phone number so he can ask you questions and gauge your feelings.

Here is a sample of what you could send him.

Dear Dr. Harley,

You addressed an email I sent to you a couple days ago.
My wife was applying for a job 6 miles from where her former affair partner lives.
She ended the affair 4 years ago and we have read your materials but we never moved away from the area.
On the air, you recommended against the job and said it was an extraordinary precaution. I have told my wife that I do not agree to her taking this job and it makes me feel unsafe.

Yesterday, she told me she accepted the job.
She is not willing to change her mind about the matter.

Some of the posters on the Forum have encouraged me to divorce her.
However, I have a son that is a high school freshman and I would like to remain married until he graduates.
I feel that my son would benefit from this sacrifice on my part and I don't want him to be hurt.
What are your thoughts on this matter?
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 02:17 PM
I feel I'm fighting an uphill battle because hfm is in communication with her sister/bil (neither who have ever contacted ME for my perspective) and they are chirping in her ear that she should 'go for it', and use this as an opportunity to 'prove' I can trust her, and that I have no right to 'tell her where she can and can't work' and that if I don't like it I should go 'sleep in another room'.

Mind you -- they have only been in contact with her, not me...not me, the betrayed spouse.



Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 02:26 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I feel I'm fighting an uphill battle because hfm is in communication with her sister/bil (neither who have ever contacted ME for my perspective) and they are chirping in her ear that she should 'go for it', and use this as an opportunity to 'prove' I can trust her, and that I have no right to 'tell her where she can and can't work' and that if I don't like it I should go 'sleep in another room'.

Mind you -- they have only been in contact with her, not me...not me, the betrayed spouse.

Isn't it so easy to give bad advice when its not your ox getting gored? And sad that she cares more about their opinion than her own husbands?

Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 02:27 PM
hfd, I am so sorry she has accepted this job. That level of thoughtlessness and triggering hurts horribly.

I think you should turn around and send exactly this to Dr. Harley and get some help:

Originally Posted by Jedi_Knight
I encourage you to send another email to Dr. Harley.
He will remember your case since you were just on. I think you could really use his input on this and he has told you to contact him with further questions.
You may want to give him your phone number so he can ask you questions and gauge your feelings.

Here is a sample of what you could send him.

Dear Dr. Harley,

You addressed an email I sent to you a couple days ago.
My wife was applying for a job 6 miles from where her former affair partner lives.
She ended the affair 4 years ago and we have read your materials but we never moved away from the area.
On the air, you recommended against the job and said it was an extraordinary precaution. I have told my wife that I do not agree to her taking this job and it makes me feel unsafe.

Yesterday, she told me she accepted the job.
She is not willing to change her mind about the matter.

Some of the posters on the Forum have encouraged me to divorce her.
However, I have a son that is a high school freshman and I would like to remain married until he graduates.
I feel that my son would benefit from this sacrifice on my part and I don't want him to be hurt.
What are your thoughts on this matter?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 02:32 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I feel I'm fighting an uphill battle because hfm is in communication with her sister/bil (neither who have ever contacted ME for my perspective) and they are chirping in her ear that she should 'go for it', and use this as an opportunity to 'prove' I can trust her, and that I have no right to 'tell her where she can and can't work' and that if I don't like it I should go 'sleep in another room'.

I want to add that the problem here is not the sister/bil,but the fact that your wife places their opinion over YOURS. She is thoughtless and uncaring about you. And why would the sister care since its not her that has to pay the price?
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 02:34 PM
I get family, but...It saddens me that she turns toward other for marital advice instead of MB or Dr. Harley.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 02:36 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I get family, but...It saddens me that she turns toward other for marital advice instead of MB or Dr. Harley.

She turns to whomever will tell her what she wants to hear.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 02:37 PM
She places everything else before her marriage, so naturally she won't turn to Marriage Builders.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 02:37 PM
Like I stated before...she will never put me or my feelings 'above hers' again (to her, that's me 'winning') and/or considers them, but only to a point, I feel.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 02:42 PM
I asked her if she would be willing to read the email I sent to Dr. Harley, and listen to his response which we received last night.

She did read the email last night, and responded:

1. she yelled at me for sending it because I sent it during the day from work and didn't POJA sending it first

2. when I asked if she thought I summarized/conveyed the situation accurately in the email, she said something like "it is accurate in the fact that it's as you see the situation..."

When I asked if she would be willing to listen to Dr. Harley's response, she stated

1. 'I don't need to listen to it because I'm sure it's all for you and all against me...'


There were several text back and forth last night (I was at soccer practice with son; hfm decided to stay home) where I thought we were having good discussion, but it'd be too much to type it all here.

When she informed me this morning, I calmly stated that I was sad she made this decision despite my feelings about it, and that I worry what effect her IB and working in that area will have on our marriage.

I did wish her luck and offered my support for her leaving her current job, which she can't stand. I'm having difficulty supporting her taking this new job.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 02:47 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
1. she yelled at me for sending it because I sent it during the day from work and didn't POJA sending it first

The POJA? What is that?
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 02:49 PM
Well, the exception to the POJA is when safety or health are at risk.
Your health is at risk from her behaviors so you don't need to POJA writing Dr. Harley
Posted By: black_raven Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 02:51 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
She did read the email last night, and responded...she yelled at me for sending it because I sent it during the day from work and didn't POJA sending it first

When I asked if she would be willing to listen to Dr. Harley's response, she stated... 'I don't need to listen to it because I'm sure it's all for you and all against me...'

HFD, this sums up her attitude about protecting her marriage. You don't need to give endless examples...^^^^^ says it all. If WW is not willing to protect you or her marriage, you are better off without her. I agree with Jedi about not living in marital hell while your son finishes school. That never goes well and you know that. I'd cut my losses...there is no shame in that.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 02:53 PM
Mel,

HFM was angry because I didn't let her know before I emailed Dr. Harley

(no mention when SHE did the same thing a few months ago w/ out my knowledge, though...I didn't say boo: I'd love for her to talk with them!)
Posted By: black_raven Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 02:53 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by helpfordad
1. she yelled at me for sending it because I sent it during the day from work and didn't POJA sending it first

The POJA? What is that?

She's mad that HFD wrote Dr. H w/o asking her. crazy
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 02:55 PM
I understand that all of you are only hearing "my side"...believe me, I would love hfm to be on here as well to speak for herself and "her side" of the disagreement.
Posted By: black_raven Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 02:57 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I understand that all of you are only hearing "my side"...believe me, I would love hfm to be on here as well to speak for herself and "her side" of the disagreement.

What difference does "her side" make? Nada

She isn't following POJA and is willing to break an EP (that will cause you great anxiety)...the end. "Her side" is irrelevant.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 02:57 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Mel,

HFM was angry because I didn't let her know before I emailed Dr. Harley

(no mention when SHE did the same thing a few months ago w/ out my knowledge, though...I didn't say boo: I'd love for her to talk with them!)

My point is that she doesn't use the POJA so it is a little silly of her to suggest you follow it when she won't.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 02:58 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I understand that all of you are only hearing "my side"...believe me, I would love hfm to be on here as well to speak for herself and "her side" of the disagreement.

The only side we are concerned with is the truth. There is only one "side" to the truth.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 03:04 PM
It's difficult because now I am the 'bad husband' because I am not interested in her new job. I am doing all that is asked to get her OUT of her current job, but I am wrong for not being motivated for going shopping for new work gear or helping set up her 401k at a job I don't even want her to be at???

She says I've been mean and withholding affection from her for several days?!? I'm sorry I don't want to cuddle with someone who is making a decision to that'll hurt me!

I can't take this abuse.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 03:07 PM
I feel she'd disagree with you BR...she is entitled to 'her side', and entitled to 'her happiness' if that's what this job represents to her.

She texted me she looks at this as just a 'career boost' and getting her life 'back on track' and the OM is a 'needle in a haystack' to her. That she's a 'good person who learned from my mistake'.

She claims that I am 'holding on to something that isn't there' and am stopping her from 'moving forward'.
Posted By: black_raven Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 03:12 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I feel she'd disagree with you BR...she is entitled to 'her side', and entitled to 'her happiness' if that's what this job represents to her.

I'm sure she would disagree with me. My point is SO WHAT?! You are now going to listen to the wayward babble and gaslighting? I don't care what hfm has to say. As Mel said, there is one truth. I don't even know why YOU think "her side" makes a bit of difference or why you are worried about being the "bad guy."

Come on, HFD. You are not a newbie!!
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 03:40 PM
Because I'm used to being portrayed as one.

The job is just a symptom of underlying issues here.'

I need to ask her if she's really committed to this marriage, an integrated lifestyle, or not.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 03:46 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I get family, but...It saddens me that she turns toward other for marital advice instead of MB or Dr. Harley.

As I said yesterday, Marriage Builders has never done anything for her. It has provided no value for her.

It is up to you to make Marriage Builders provide value for your wife, or else she will never care.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 03:46 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Because I'm used to being portrayed as one.

The job is just a symptom of underlying issues here.'

I need to ask her if she's really committed to this marriage, an integrated lifestyle, or not.

She has already showed you, through her actions..
Posted By: Aerith Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 03:47 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Because I'm used to being portrayed as one.

The job is just a symptom of underlying issues here.'

I need to ask her if she's really committed to this marriage, an integrated lifestyle, or not.

Her actions are saying she is not ...
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 03:47 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
It's difficult because now I am the 'bad husband' because I am not interested in her new job.

That's a philosophy of marriage we stand against here. We do not believe that a spouse should support another spouse's choices no matter what. We believe that YOU matter as well as she, and so ALL decisions should be made with care and thoughtfulness for the feelings of BOTH husband and wife.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 03:47 PM
So a FWW does NOT have to commit to following the MB program?

It's up to a Betrayed Spouse to drag along the reluctant spouse who committed adultery?

Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 03:48 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Because I'm used to being portrayed as one.

The job is just a symptom of underlying issues here.'

I need to ask her if she's really committed to this marriage, an integrated lifestyle, or not.

Nope. You need to email Dr. Harley and tell him "My wife is choosing a job I am not enthusiastic about - what can I do to turn this around?"

Trying to ask her something or talk her into something is not going to work. It hasn't so far.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 03:49 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
So a FWW does NOT have to commit to following the MB program?

It's up to a Betrayed Spouse to drag along the reluctant spouse who committed adultery?
What are you referring to?
Have you emailed Dr. Harley?
You seem to keep talking in circles and it's really not productive
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 03:49 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
So a FWW does NOT have to commit to following the MB program?

I have no idea what that means. The point is that she is NOT committed. The question is what can you do about it.

You need to learn how to sell Marriage Builders to her. You need to show her what's in it for her. Right now there is nothing in it for her. Zero, zip, zilch, nada.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 03:51 PM
"If you decide to take this job, I will be hurt and unhappy (I lose); if you decide NOT to take the job, you will be unhappy (feel that you lose). So, either way, one of us will lose in this situation, and that is bad for the marriage. MB encourages us to find a solution that is win-win for BOTH of us. And I'm not saying any of this is easy..."

That's a text I sent her yesterday, trying to encourage us to brainstorm more...
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 03:55 PM
I haven't tried talking her into or out of anything.

I have:

1. told her how her working there makes me feel and that I'm not enthusiastic about it

2. encouraged her to brainstorm with me; any talk of working there violating an EP (off the table) is end-of-discussion for her.

Why don't you ask her why she feels she does not need to recognize, follow, or incorporate EPs into the marriage after infidelity, as Dr. Harley prescribes?
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 04:04 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Why don't you ask her why she feels she does not need to recognize, follow, or incorporate EPs into the marriage after infidelity, as Dr. Harley prescribes?

I know exactly why she feels that way: there's nothing in it for her.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 04:07 PM
Again, I don't understand you.

It sounds like you are blaming me because my wife wants to work 7 miles from her affair partner.

I've eliminated LBs, work to meet the 4 needs, etc.

But she doesn't have to follow MB because SHE lacks -- as DR. Harley points out -- lacks empathy for the damage done.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 04:09 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Again, I don't understand you.

It sounds like you are blaming me because my wife wants to work 7 miles from her affair partner.

I've eliminated LBs, work to meet the 4 needs, etc.

But she doesn't have to follow MB because SHE lacks -- as DR. Harley points out -- lacks empathy for the damage done.

Sir,
Why don't you send that email to Dr. Harley so he can address it before the week ends and then take some time by yourself for self care.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 04:11 PM
ok.
Posted By: Prisca Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 04:12 PM
What are you going to do about it?
Throw another fit?
Or show her that there is actually something in this for her?
Posted By: Prisca Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 04:16 PM
Your posts drop with entitlement. You have never shown her what's in it for her. MB is something for you, not her.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 04:16 PM
I have not thrown 'a fit' and take issue with your false accusation.

Or, are you trying to goad me into an AO or something?

Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 04:16 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Again, I don't understand you.

It sounds like you are blaming me because my wife wants to work 7 miles from her affair partner.

No, I'm not even thinking of blame.

I'm telling you what the problem is. If you want to keep your marriage, identify the problem and then solve it. Blame is a sidetrack.

Quote
I've eliminated LBs, work to meet the 4 needs, etc.

You've worked at it, but haven't succeeded. UA, the most important thing this program has to offer her, is lackluster by the description you gave earlier. Every husband has to figure this out if he wants a good marriage.

Get this problem in front of you and don't take it out of your site by switching to a focus of "blame."

Quote
But she doesn't have to follow MB because SHE lacks -- as DR. Harley points out -- lacks empathy for the damage done.

Nobody has to do anything, hfd. You have to think about why she is doing what she is doing and see what incentive you can offer her, if you want her to do anything different.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 04:17 PM
Huh?

A FWS gets nothing out of following MB?

Cryptic and confusing to me. Sorry.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 04:17 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I have not thrown 'a fit' and take issue with your false accusation.

Quit taking issue with stuff because it is a complete waste of time. You are distracting yourself from the real problem that you have to solve, which is that your wife has no incentive to follow Marriage Builders because there is nothing in it for her.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 04:18 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Huh?

A FWS gets nothing out of following MB?

Cryptic and confusing to me. Sorry.

Take the scarlet A off of your wife and understand this Marriage Builders principle:

Every spouse, regardless of the mistakes of their past, needs an incentive to do Marriage Builders, provided by their spouse.
Posted By: Prisca Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 04:19 PM
You have thrown plenty in the last few days.

And you should know by now that no one can "goad" you into an AO.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 04:19 PM
Markos,

So...It's up to ME to give her the incentive to follow the principles that Dr. Harley says a FWS must follow in order to be working the program?

Again..I'm rushed in work, but I may be missing your point.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 04:22 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
A FWS gets nothing out of following MB?

Quit trying to prove that your wife gets something out of it and start trying to see her perspective.

The main problem I see here is that you have zero awareness of her perspective, other than to pass judgment on it. Without an understanding of her perspective (empathy on your part for her) you have no way to figure out how to motivate her (how to find solutions that are a win for her) and the only technique you have is to remind her she owes you MB because she had an affair.

That's a recipe for creating an aversion to Marriage Builders.

Can you see why she doesn't want to negotiate with her? You don't understand the problem from her perspective.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 04:22 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Markos,

So...It's up to ME to give her the incentive to follow the principles that Dr. Harley says a FWS must follow in order to be working the program?

Yes!
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 04:23 PM
You are not entitles to your "truth" any more than I am...and I realize since we're not married you can't DJ me, but I will respectfully disagree that I have not thrown a fit.

If that's the way you classify sharing how one feels, than I am sorry.

I know someone can't 'make' you angry...it was the context of the accusation..oh, nevermind.

I need a break. I'll email Dr. Harley later.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 04:24 PM
Markos,

I am going to respectfully ask you stop posting to me.

I don't understand your accusatory tone, or your cryptic messages, or pointing the finger at the betrayed.

I do appreciate your efforts on this forum. I just need as break.

Thanks so much.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 04:26 PM
The thing that she doesn't want to be "reminded" about is an EP...a fundamental aspect of MB.

So she is unwilling to follow this basic tenet...and that's on me?

Right. Got it.

Enjoy your day, please.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 04:31 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Markos,

I am going to respectfully ask you stop posting to me.

I don't understand your accusatory tone, or your cryptic messages, or pointing the finger at the betrayed.

hfd, if only you would read looking for solutions, you would see all of this in a whole new light.

If you want to keep your marriage, you have got to do something about the problem I keep mentioning.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 04:32 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
The thing that she doesn't want to be "reminded" about is an EP...a fundamental aspect of MB.

So she is unwilling to follow this basic tenet...and that's on me?

Right. Got it.

Enjoy your day, please.

All this says is that you think your wife should feel different.

But she doesn't. She feels the way she does.

What are you going to do about it? What's your plan?
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 04:35 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Markos,

So...It's up to ME to give her the incentive to follow the principles that Dr. Harley says a FWS must follow in order to be working the program?

Yes!

This is it, right there. You understood this correctly, and now if you want to keep your marriage, this problem has got to be solved.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 04:36 PM
I don't 'see' the problem you keep mentioning I see?

Why does she feel the way she does?

Because she wants that job for more $$$ and to use her degree.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 04:38 PM
I've been here for 35 pages looking for a solution...which I TGHOUGHT was detailed in the book -- EP and POJA etc.

But you know, I'm realizing that if I don't 'get it' that my wife choosing to take a job 7 miles from her affair partner, despite how it makes me feel, is really MY problem as the betrayed husband, than maybe I never will.

And I should stop wasting all of your time.

Thank you :-)
Posted By: Prisca Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 04:41 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Right. Got it.

Enjoy your day, please.

And we are supposed to believe you don't throw fits? You keep doing this. You are told something you don't want to hear, you get sarcastic, and you storm off ignoring all the advice you have been given.

This isn't the first time. You have been here before, doing the exact same thing. Where has it gotten you?
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 04:43 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I've been here for 35 pages looking for a solution...which I TGHOUGHT was detailed in the book -- EP and POJA etc.

But you know, I'm realizing that if I don't 'get it' that my wife choosing to take a job 7 miles from her affair partner, despite how it makes me feel, is really MY problem as the betrayed husband, than maybe I never will.

I haven't said it is "really YOUR problem."

I have said that like all husbands, you have to solve this problem if you want to have a good marriage.

You have to think about what would be an incentive for your wife to want to have a marriage of care for you, a marriage that follows the POJA.

Right now, she doesn't think that's worth it.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 04:44 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I don't 'see' the problem you keep mentioning I see?

Why does she feel the way she does?

Because she wants that job for more $$$ and to use her degree.

Yes, she cares about all of that more than her marriage, and more than her husband.

What value is her marriage providing for her? What value are you providing for her? Whatever value that is, it's not enough for her.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 04:44 PM
I'm sorry you are misinterpreting my replies when I am confirming "I got it"...meaning, I understand.

You're responses seem angry to me.

And storming off? I'd have to say that is false as well, since I initiated coming here to post.

But thank you :-)
Posted By: black_raven Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 04:45 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I've been here for 35 pages looking for a solution...which I TGHOUGHT was detailed in the book -- EP and POJA etc.

But you know, I'm realizing that if I don't 'get it' that my wife choosing to take a job 7 miles from her affair partner, despite how it makes me feel, is really MY problem as the betrayed husband, than maybe I never will.

And I should stop wasting all of your time.

Thank you :-)

You're not wasting my time, HFD. I disagree that it is your responsibility to educate WW at this point. She knows MB and doesn't care. There is no extraordinary care on her part by taking this job.

Anyway, I'm going back to assembling a table. Like Jedi recommended, send an email to Dr H and give yourself some self care this weekend.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 04:48 PM
Markos,

In retrospect, she really hasn't since the beginning.

Our dating, our courtship, our marriage was really 2 very independent souls who lived together...best friends, maybe, but maybe not made for marriage.

Many good decisions...2 GREAT kids...but never really interdependent, integrated lifestyle.

And honestly...after all of this, I'm starting to think that for our own personal reasons -- coming out of her infidelity, maybe neither one of us REALLY wants to live that way.

She has said often to me...over ALL the past 4 years: "I dare you to divorce me" and "I wish you would've just let me go" (instead of even attempting a recovery program).

That one is very telling, and maybe I should pay more attention to it...
Posted By: Prisca Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 04:48 PM
No, you can't just weasel your way out of that. You are being sarcastic and rude to the people who are trying to help you.
I suggest you start listening to the things you do not want to hear.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 04:55 PM
I am NOT being sarcastic or rude; that is your opinion. I respect it, but disagree with it.

And, frankly, you haven't known hfm since she was 15. Yes, she valued $, a successful career, education more than me from the get-go. And then eventually our kids too.

And I have acquiesced too much for too long...lack of attention, little input as to kids, cars, houses, schools, money...

I'm embarrassed at myself realizing this now. As I said before, I have been 'utilitarian' to her for a very long time...but I can't blame her as that met a need for me to feel like I was at least useful to another human being on this miserable journey.
Posted By: Prisca Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 05:00 PM
What are you going to do about your dismal UA?
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 05:18 PM
How about this?

How about YOU get hfm to agree that I am allowed to spend $$$ for a yoga class we want to take? Or going to the orchestra? or a ballgame?

Oh, wait...we only spend on what hfm wants, when she wants...or where to divert $$ (NOT on us...but the 529 fund...the 401k fund...the 403b fund...etc.) There's always an excuse to spend $$$ everywhere else EXCEPT a cruise, or a weekend away, or a cooking class for US!

Or, better yet, why don't YOU swing by and just throw her into the car and take her to dance classes, or the jazz club, or for a walk instaed of being in bed by 5:46 pm every night after work and watching Real Housewives for 4 hours?

(Yes, NOW I am being sarcastic)

If I don't plan/initiate UA time, the it DOESN'T HAPPEN!(much like cooking, cleaning, registering child for soccer, oil changes, doctor's appointments, FAFSA forms, etc.)


I thionk one thing Markos and Prisca you fail to realize is that hfm has ALWAYS been depressed/anxious...even when I knew her and we were friends long before we even dated. Her depression pre-dated having a husband!

And when she was on meds once for it....she weaned her self off. And when I took her for help and she was on meds again after our second child...she weaned herself off...and when she was prescribed meds again this spring....she weaned herself off again by August.

There is so much history here that has predates by a LONG TIME marriage/husband/family.

And you don't seem to want to acknowledge or accept that fact or willing to be gentle with me for the conditions I've lived with.

Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 05:28 PM
It's a bad day for me emotionally.

I'm shaking, and feel like I'm being drawn back 4 years ago, my head on a swivel.

Just like when they worked together...wondering each and every day if this will be the day they make contact.

I'm not seeking a scarlet A, or punishment...that's above my pay grade.

I just want love and protection (more than just "you can trust me") and to never feel the pain I did 4 years ago. Never.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 05:29 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
And you don't seem to want to acknowledge or accept that fact or willing to be gentle with me for the conditions I've lived with.

I would just like to see you start taking some action to change things. I believe you can turn this around, but right now I think you are being so defensive you are missing most of what we are saying.

hfd, I wouldn't fault you at all if you walked away from this marriage. I see no reason that you have to stay. Your wife's care for you amounts to a complete zero.

But I don't think that would be the most happy outcome for you. I think you and your family would probably suffer from that choice.

And I do think that you can turn her feelings for you around. I was hopeful that was going to happen last year when you AND your wife were both about to sign up for the online program. I really think you (like me) need daily motivation and education to kick your job up a notch enough that it can finally be effective in winning her over. But I can't seem to persuade you to listen to that radio show daily, I can't seem to persuade you to stick with this on a daily basis, I can't seem to persuade you that your UA time needs to be much, MUCH more enjoyable for your wife - the only response I get is that you are upset at me for "blaming" you.

I don't blame you for anything, hfd. I just want to show you how you can turn this around and end up happy.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 05:38 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
It's a bad day for me emotionally.

I know, hfd. I am sorry that you are going through this. A drawn out recovery is a horrible thing. Prisca and I took three years before we could finally say we were doing well on a continuing basis.

Quote
I just want love and protection (more than just "you can trust me")

I know, but the only way I see for you to get that is to change her feelings toward you by filling your account in her love bank.

I don't think you can get that by appealing to her sense of duty from being married, or her sense of owing you just compensation for her affair.

I don't think you can get that by divorcing her or separating from her, although I certainly wouldn't fault you if you did.

I think the only way you can get what you are looking for from her is to change her feelings toward you by filling your account in her love bank. I understand that since she cares zilch for you right now that is going to require nose holding to a degree you probably don't want to do.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 05:39 PM
Markos,

I understand. I do.

But when you say 'strike while the iron's hot', hfm may say she wants the online program, but she doesn't put her $$$ where her mouth is. It's fleeting.

There's so much I want to do UA-wise -- I even made a list for when hfm had time once she finished her grad program. But it takes TWO markos...I don't want to be at the orchestra alone -- but she needs to agree to spend the $250 for tix. Buying them alone would be an IB on my part.

And as much as I don't want to lie in bed for hours with her watching TV...I don't want to sit at the jazz club, or ballgame, or camping without her either.

When she's been down, she's asked about getting on the forum for advice...there are times that she hears about infidelity and explaims she wants to 'warn the world" about it, share her experiences to others who may contemplating it...but she never gets on, there's never follow through.

It's like a level of accepting misery, an contentment with the unhappiness of life. The glass is ALWAYS half empty to hfm. It's worn me down, and definitely the kids.

Some of this derives from herself, Markos. She was never that 'type' of person to do this...you know, I'm no savuior, but honestly it is I who is often ripping off the A from her; it is SHE much of the time that keeps it on herself.

She's an adult, and only she controls herself.

Posted By: Prisca Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 05:39 PM
So what are you going to do about the UA?
Posted By: Prisca Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 05:43 PM
You are putting too much emphasis on what she is not doing. What were you doing? You don't have to spend $250 on UA to make it better.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 05:44 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
But it takes TWO markos

I know that full well, hfd. But even with me agreeing with you, what does it buy you? Prisca wanted pretty much nothing to do with Marriage Builders most of the time, as well.

Nothing changed until my balance in her love bank passed the threshold. She was not the kind of woman to just see the program, realize it was logical, and do it. She was not the kind of woman to see her own unfaithfulness and see the program as the way to make it up to me and do it. What little incentive that kind of stuff provided for her burned out really fast, and then I was left with a thoughtless and disrespectful wife who only wanted to fight me when I complained.

Nothing changed until my account in her love bank changed.

Quote
She's an adult, and only she controls herself.

She doesn't control her feelings toward you, though. Your behavior controls that.

You can make someone fall in love with you almost against their will.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 05:46 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
When she's been down, she's asked about getting on the forum for advice...there are times that she hears about infidelity and explaims she wants to 'warn the world" about it, share her experiences to others who may contemplating it...but she never gets on, there's never follow through.

I don't think that would buy you anything, anyway. It is crucially important for you guys that Marriage Builders NOT be about infidelity, but about hfm having a rewarding marriage and being head over heels in love with you.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 05:52 PM
Markos,

You nailed it, buddy and I'm on the verge of tears.

I get tired of holding my nose. Why?

Because I held my nose through...

*hfm never sending a NC letter
*delayed/fought changing her contact information
*refused to leave her workplace where the affair occurred
*the dishonesty
*trying to text OM a year after the affair ended
*withholding for 3 days that OM contacted her 6 months after exposure
*waiting until 2012 to trickle truth many things...including hotel meetings with OM
*while having AOs, saying very hurtful things, comparisons with OM, etc.
*that in general, I ended the affair...and she didn't seem to lift a finger to end an affair or turn to save our marriage


I often feel her response to what she's done to "recover" the marriage: "well, I haven't had another affair."

And I don't think she ever understood, felt, or cared about the depths of psychological/emotional damage to me. I'm supposed to just "get better" with it, on my own, regardless of her commitment to me or the maintenance of our marriage.

Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 05:57 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Markos,

You nailed it, buddy and I'm on the verge of tears.

I get tired of holding my nose. Why?

Anyone would. I don't know any other good options for you, though. When I got to the point where I saw that I was going to have to keep doing that, with a feeling of little progress, and felt I couldn't do it, I got on antidepressants so my emotions wouldn't stop me from doing what I needed to do.

I would put all of the things you listed here into an email to Dr. Harley - have you emailed him, yet?
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 05:57 PM
But Markos,

Even Dr. Harley states that regardless of 'cleaning up my side of the street', or eliminating LBs, a FWS MUST agree/abide by the tenets of HIS program: EPs for example.

And as he said to me, FWS often bristle at these, and find them uncomfortable and controlling, but they must BE, and be FOR the sake of the BS.

HFM reacts in a way that she does not simply accept the very PREMISE that ANY BS gets to decide or create these 'rules' of which the FWS must commit to follow.

HFM has followed many EPs...we've POJAd many decisions the right way for 4 years...

This one -- career oriented EP -- seems like a 'bridge too far for her. She cares, but only to a point. I'm doing what I can to get her past that point, but ultimately SHE must decide to allow herself to get there, just as it id for ME to decide how/when to trust again.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 06:24 PM
And to fill her LoveBank by capitulating on the EP and sacrificing and playing the Giver?

Is that really a logical course of action, because right now I KNOW that would make her happy and make many deposits.
Posted By: FightTheFight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 07:44 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
And to fill her LoveBank by capitulating on the EP and sacrificing and playing the Giver?

Is that really a logical course of action, because right now I KNOW that would make her happy and make many deposits.

Originally Posted by markos
It is not going to get better until both of you accept that her needs are valid, and they get met. Not her washing the dishes needs - her being swept off of her feet needs. The UA time you described is not sweeping her off of her feet, and the "propping up" you are describing in this post is definitely not going to do that. So stop SACRIFICING to meet needs that aren't going to win her, and start WINNING her in a way that you ENJOY.

This red part is a key piece of info. If you don't enjoy it you won't want to do it and you'll only end up resenting it like you do now.
Posted By: BlindSighted2013 Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 07:47 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
And to fill her LoveBank by capitulating on the EP and sacrificing and playing the Giver?

Is that really a logical course of action, because right now I KNOW that would make her happy and make many deposits.
To other more experienced MB's, I am confused about the advice being given to hfd. I don't see how caving on the EPs could be the answer. **EDIT**

So where does this leave hfd today? Following MB, he needs to go to her as he did last evening, and complain about the job choice, right? Simply "it bothers me that�". Then what? Markos, you make excellent points about not making MB about infidelity. Really good point. But was Prisca purposefully breaking EPs at the point where you buckled down and courted her back to the marriage?
Posted By: BlindSighted2013 Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 07:53 PM
Originally Posted by FightTheFight
This red part is a key piece of info. If you don't enjoy it you won't want to do it and you'll only end up resenting it like you do now.
Excellent point, ftf. But how can this work with EPs being broken? How can hfd enjoy doing much of anything if he is constantly worried about where his wife is working every day?
Posted By: FightTheFight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 09:00 PM
Originally Posted by BlindSighted2013
How can hfd enjoy doing much of anything if he is constantly worried about where his wife is working every day?

He worries about it at the job she has now! Primarily because they will not consider moving.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 09:09 PM
Not true. No where have I ever stated that.

I don't worry like that with her current job 20+ miles away.


I do when its 7, in his neighborhood.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 09:30 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
But Markos,

Even Dr. Harley states that regardless of 'cleaning up my side of the street', or eliminating LBs, a FWS MUST agree/abide by the tenets of HIS program: EPs for example.

hfd, I know full well what your wife must do, and I also know what it is like to be in a marriage where your wife will not do it. Right now your wife is not doing it, and you can't make her do it. The question is what can you do about it? What is your plan?

Again, noone would fault you for leaving. You've really only got two workable options: leave, or try to win her over.

We all know what she is supposed to do - we all know what rules she is supposed to follow. She is not doing it. It hurts horribly, and we all know that. Reiterating it over and over again is not a plan and will not accomplish anything.
Posted By: FightTheFight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 09:31 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Not true. No where have I ever stated that.

I don't worry like that with her current job 20+ miles away.


I do when its 7, in his neighborhood.


Originally Posted by helpfordad
I have wondered to myself how realistic I can be in my lack of enthusiasm for her working in location A versus location B, since, at last knowledge, the POS being a union worker could theoretically be assigned anywhere in the area....so, feels like playing whack-a-mole sometimes.

The odds may be relatively the same that he could show up at a workplace in our home county as easy as he could in his...I just feel that it increases the odds (the risk? is that what I fear?) of contact if W is working closer to his residence than further away. But does that really mean anything since the A began in our home county, anyway?

Doesn't sound like peace of mind to me.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 09:31 PM
Originally Posted by markos
I would put all of the things you listed here into an email to Dr. Harley - have you emailed him, yet?

So have you? I spend so much time writing here trying to help and I get the feeling you're only seeing about 10% of what I write.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 09:32 PM
Originally Posted by BlindSighted2013
Originally Posted by helpfordad
And to fill her LoveBank by capitulating on the EP and sacrificing and playing the Giver?

Is that really a logical course of action, because right now I KNOW that would make her happy and make many deposits.
To other more experienced MB's, I am confused about the advice being given to hfd. I don't see how caving on the EPs could be the answer.

I don't see where anyone has advised caving or capitulating. I would advise lots of complaining about it.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 09:41 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Markos,
She has said often to me...over ALL the past 4 years: "I dare you to divorce me" and "I wish you would've just let me go" (instead of even attempting a recovery program).

That one is very telling, and maybe I should pay more attention to it...

Well, maybe it's time to call her bluff and hire a good divorce attorney
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 09:57 PM
Markos,

Yes, I emailed.

So, your suggested plan of action for me is the complain a lot and Plan A her while she violates EP and POJA and works 7 miles from her AP?

Feels like the plan from 4 years ago to end her affair. Talk about a trigger...
Posted By: Prisca Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 10:04 PM
Quote
Again, noone would fault you for leaving. You've really only got two workable options: leave, or try to win her over.
Those are your options. Leave or win her. Either one is better than what you are currently doing.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 10:10 PM
Ok, so she refuses to follow an EP -- as Dr. Harley stated she is -- that is an essential tenet of his program. Dr. Harley states that she's showing an incredulous lack of empathy and care for her BH.

And yet one option for ME is to leave my bed, my home...becasue SHE chooses to work CLOSER to her affair partner?

I'm serious, not sarcastic: that just does not seem logical to me.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 10:11 PM
We can't change the past, but I hope others see what happens when a couple doesn't move after the affair. Four years later and they are still discussing the OM! Living in the same area is to die a death of a thousand cuts and I suspect is the cause of this WW's fogged out lack of empathy.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 10:14 PM
I don't know if the cause is not moving (again, she has stated SHE wants to move as soon as son graduates) or something else internal, in her character, but...

I cannot argue the effect of not moving. A thousand and one...
Posted By: black_raven Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 10:19 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
And yet one option for ME is to leave my bed, my home...becasue SHE chooses to work CLOSER to her affair partner?

I'm serious, not sarcastic: that just does not seem logical to me.

That option may be unfair but it is not illogical. Illogical is staying put when you are miserable and then complaining about it over and over. You have valid complaints, hfd, but you do have options even if some aren't fair.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 10:35 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I don't know if the cause is not moving (again, she has stated SHE wants to move as soon as son graduates) or something else internal, in her character, but...

I cannot argue the effect of not moving. A thousand and one...

Yes the cause is not moving. You wouldn't even be having this conversation if you had. You are paying the price today with an unrecovered marriage.

I am sure if your children weren't the excuse for not moving, another one would be found. Just think, your kids weren't in high school 4 years ago.

Even though you are in denial about that, I hope others can see the result.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 10:35 PM
I am bookmarking this thread under "here is what happens when you REFUSE to move away from OP."
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 10:54 PM
I am sorry your statement is incorrect.

Our oldest child was in high school 4 years ago.

I am not in denial; I am acutely aware that this conversation would not be occuring if we did not choose to live where we are.

Yes, please bookmark this under 'what NOT to do'...

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 11:00 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I am sorry your statement is incorrect.

This fact does not change my point though. And I am glad you admit this discussion would not be taking place if you had moved.

Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 11:02 PM
Mel,

I've been around long enough to know to NOT EVEN BOTHER arguing with you. I just wanted to reassure you that I understand your point, and I certainly have admitted there's no discussion about no job in no county if we're living no where around here any more.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/17/14 11:31 PM
The house is very quiet.

She's not engaging me at all the last 2 days since she accepted the job.

I don't know what's to talk about since she sees how much I am hurting by this.

It's awkward.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/18/14 12:11 AM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Ok, so she refuses to follow an EP -- as Dr. Harley stated she is -- that is an essential tenet of his program. Dr. Harley states that she's showing an incredulous lack of empathy and care for her BH.

And yet one option for ME is to leave my bed, my home...becasue SHE chooses to work CLOSER to her affair partner?

I'm serious, not sarcastic: that just does not seem logical to me.

You have 2 options, as Markos has explained in fine detail:

1. File for divorce and let her take the damn job (she's going to anyway) and then she can be miserable like she seems to want.

2. Try to win her over and make her fall in love with you.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/18/14 12:16 AM
Since she's taking the job anyway, and ignoring the EP in the first place, is there any sense to trying to establish anything at this point should contact occur?

Or does it matter not?


She scoffed at Dr. Harley's response.
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/18/14 01:33 AM
HFD,"


"Or does it matter not?"

Why are you even asking this? It matters only if it's important to you, and NOT to the members here. They are only trying to advise you and have no vested interest in your M.

Tom

Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/18/14 02:46 AM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Since she's taking the job anyway, and ignoring the EP in the first place, is there any sense to trying to establish anything at this point should contact occur?

Or does it matter not?


She scoffed at Dr. Harley's response.

I think she will dictate any terms to you.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/18/14 03:50 AM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
She scoffed at Dr. Harley's response.
Is this a recent response since your radio clip? What did he say?
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/18/14 10:56 AM
No, she listened to his first response to the original email.

HFM stated that she didn't agree with anything he said, was insulted that he said she was weak and would 'run back into OMs arms'...

She said Dr. Harley "sounds crazy" to her, that there's no "validity" to what he said, and that he doesn't know me or what I've been through so he can't base his advice on a snippet of what you (hfd) are feeding him."

Lastly, she said "you want to put a GPS in the car? go right ahead. Heck, put one on me if you want. It's all crazy and paranoid, but whatever."

I asked her if she took anything away from his response that she found helpful; she replied "none of it makes any sense to me."

HFM stated that I have nothing to fear, and that I don't have to worry about OM seeking her out "He didn't pursue me after you exposed, and he hasn't come after me for 4 years...I know what he thought about me. He's not going to seek me out..."

I sent the follow-up email, but waiting for response. (my work computer does not allow me to access the radio streaming, etc. That's why it's difficult for me to listen during the day. Our schools have powerful filters.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/18/14 11:40 AM
Melody,

Markos, blackraven, JK, etc. have provided feedback for what they see as my "options" at this point.

What are my options at this point as you see them, in my current situation? I need to hear what you'd consider doing if this were you.

Thank you.
Posted By: Justthe3ofus Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/18/14 01:27 PM
HFD,
MB is an action oriented program. It's not therapy. Others have told you to either leave the marriage or start making deposits into your wife's love bank. You choose to do neither, but instead just come on here and emote. That won't solve your problems.

I suggest you give yourself 6 months to commit to meeting her emotional needs. Do you know what hers are? Find out if you havent. Then commit unrelentingly to doing it. Stop making excuses that she doesn't want to spend money. Taking a walk on a nice evening is free. Going to Starbucks and having coffee together away from the kids and everyone else can be a nice date. Just find ways to spend time together where you don't talk about the affair or the relationship, but you just talk about things you both enjoy.

If after 6 months she doesn't fall back in love with you and you and she doesn't commit the EP's then you should look at another option. I suggest you watch the movie "Fireproof" as an example of this.

But if you just do nothing and expect results, well...
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/18/14 01:43 PM
I already do what you suggested. But walk after walk after walk does really meet any of my ENs either. There are other means of spending UA time that I'd like to do. I feel as the BS in all of this, I should be "allowed" that, no?

Again, I just don't understand how the onus is on the BS to "make" the WS follow the rules of the program that Dr. Harley sets out as the rules for the WS. HFM is engaging in an IB and risking contact by choosing to work there ignoring both EPs and POJA -- as DR. Harley himself pointed out to HFM -- but I be nice for 6 months and she'll all of a sudden follow the EP that was part of the program for a WS from the beginning?

Maybe the fault lies in me, the Betrayed Spouse. I thought I've been following all of Dr. Harleys rules -- eliminating LBs, meeting ENs, etc. But maybe because if Im not doing the program 1
perfectly that's reason enough for hfm not to follow tenets of the program either.

There has been no talk of the affair until hfm decided to ignore the EP of working in OMs county and eventually take a job there.

I do appreciate your feedback, and will think on it greatly, as I do with every response.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/18/14 01:48 PM
I do not mean to 'emote' more than I discuss action.

For example, I can decide that I will separate from my bedroom and stay in another room while she chooses to remain not following that EP or POJA and working 7 miles from the OMs house.

I will live this way until my son graduates high school, and then separate permanently.

I could choose that course of action, then at least I'd be doing something and not emoting about it any longer.

Posted By: mrEureka Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/18/14 02:48 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I will live this way until my son graduates high school, and then separate permanently.

I could choose that course of action, then at least I'd be doing something and not emoting about it any longer.
Have you talked to your son about this? You may well find that given the choice, he would much rather transfer to another school and have his family survive intact than finish the last two years at this school and get a permanently broken family in the end.

I think this excuse for not moving is positively lame. We moved after my wife's affair. We have an autistic son. If you think it's tough to move a high schooler, let me tell you, you have *no idea* what tough is! Yet, our marriage has recovered and our autistic son is very happy now. The failure of your marriage is totally avoidable. It is nobody's fault but your own. Stop blaming circumstances. Own the path you are choosing.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/18/14 02:54 PM
I already addressed this. We asked; he doesn't want to move.

I get it...my wife choosing to ignore an EP, not follow POJA as Dr. Harley stated, is all my (our) fault because we've chosen not to move.

And I have wasted all of your time and energy trying to negotiate a solution trying to make the best of a bad situation for the next two years.

I need a break. I'm so tired and worn from all if these things affair related. And frankly, kinda getting getting tired of this life, generally.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/18/14 02:58 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I already addressed this. We asked; he doesn't want to move.

So he is ok with his parents getting divorced? How ridiculous is that? Kids change schools all the time and it does not harm them. But the break up of a marriage DOES. It is unfathomable you would subject the child to a divorce but not subject him to changing schools.

That doesnt make any sense.

Quote
And I have wasted all of your time and energy trying to negotiate a solution trying to make the best of a bad situation for the next two years.

But you arent trying to solve the problem, though. That is what is so puzzling. You are trying to find ways to perpetuate the problem.

Quote
I need a break. I'm so tired and worn from all if these things affair related.

Welcome to your future. But it is a future of your own choosing. You can choose differently.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/18/14 02:59 PM
Which is harder on children?

1. changing schools

2. parents getting divorced

think
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/18/14 03:03 PM
I have ZERO patience for people who choose the easier, softer way and then have the gall to complain when they are smacked with the consequences. That is all that is happening here. And you CONTINUE to choose the easier, softer way. It is unbelievable.

WE have so very many people who picked up and moved away who are in recovered, happy, fulfilling marriages. I don't know of any couple who does not love their new life after moving. But I have seen so many who are in terrible marriages because they didn't.

To move is short term pain for long term gain. To NOT MOVE is short term pain and long term pain. AS you have learned the hard way.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/18/14 03:04 PM
Originally Posted by mrEureka
[The failure of your marriage is totally avoidable. It is nobody's fault but your own. Stop blaming circumstances. Own the path you are choosing.

yep!
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/18/14 03:12 PM
I understand. I do.

Thank you for your insights.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/18/14 05:07 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I already do what you suggested. But walk after walk after walk does really meet any of my ENs either. There are other means of spending UA time that I'd like to do. I feel as the BS in all of this, I should be "allowed" that, no?

Walk after walk after walk is also not meeting your wife's emotional needs, either.

You guys aren't friends at all. You don't have her best interests at heart and rarely talk about what would make her happy.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/18/14 05:07 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Melody,

Markos, blackraven, JK, etc. have provided feedback for what they see as my "options" at this point.

What are my options at this point as you see them, in my current situation? I need to hear what you'd consider doing if this were you.

Thank you.

MelodyLane would use the Marriage Builders program to recover her marriage!!!!
Posted By: Prisca Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/18/14 06:25 PM
Quote
Again, I just don't understand how the onus is on the BS to "make" the WS follow the rules of the program that Dr. Harley sets out as the rules for the WS.
Nobody told you that it was up to you to make her follow the rules.
You CAN'T make her do anything. To try would be a Lpvebuster, and would fail in the end.
You were told to offer her an incentive to follow the rules, to show her what's in it for her.

THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE.

By this point, you should also probably stop referring to yourself as the betrayed spouse and her as the wayward. The focus should be totally on recovery, not her affair. And in recovery, it is up to you, the husband, to offer incentive to your reluctant wife.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/18/14 07:05 PM
Prisca,

I am trying to understand your point. I guess I'm reading Dr. Harley's point differently or something.

Going back to the start, when an affair has ended and the WS has committed to recovering the marriage and to the MB program, according to Dr. Harley, it is the BS who establishes Extraordinary Precautions in order to provide care and protection for the betrayed spouse. Agreed?

Well, I did that. (actually, I acquiesced on that, because the affair occurred in a hospital -- conditions of the affair -- that working in a hospital alone is an emotional trigger. But hfm wouldn't agree to that). So, I POJA'd that -- which Dr. Harley states are non-negotiable -- and the EP became "will not work on OM's county".

So, HFM chose to violate that EP, as well as POJA, as Dr. Harley stated in his response.

I just don't understand how then it falls to the former BS to incentivize for the former WS the rules set out by Dr. Harley for the former WS to follow as outlined at the beginning of the recovery process.

As Dr. Harley stated to us: she's not showing empathy or care or a commitment to the marriage or to me by choosing to ignore the EP and POJA in making this decision. He called her decision an Independent Behavior that would negatively affect the marriage.

No where in his response to us did he mention that I must "win her back" to following the basics of the program that a FWS agrees to for the FBS to remain in the marriage in the first place.
Posted By: LongWayFromHome Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/18/14 07:27 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Prisca,

I am trying to understand your point. I guess I'm reading Dr. Harley's point differently or something.

Going back to the start, when an affair has ended and the WS has committed to recovering the marriage and to the MB program, according to Dr. Harley, it is the BS who establishes Extraordinary Precautions in order to provide care and protection for the betrayed spouse. Agreed?

Well, I did that. (actually, I acquiesced on that, because the affair occurred in a hospital -- conditions of the affair -- that working in a hospital alone is an emotional trigger. But hfm wouldn't agree to that). So, I POJA'd that -- which Dr. Harley states are non-negotiable -- and the EP became "will not work on OM's county".

So, HFM chose to violate that EP, as well as POJA, as Dr. Harley stated in his response.

I just don't understand how then it falls to the former BS to incentivize for the former WS the rules set out by Dr. Harley for the former WS to follow as outlined at the beginning of the recovery process.

As Dr. Harley stated to us: she's not showing empathy or care or a commitment to the marriage or to me by choosing to ignore the EP and POJA in making this decision. He called her decision an Independent Behavior that would negatively affect the marriage.

No where in his response to us did he mention that I must "win her back" to following the basics of the program that a FWS agrees to for the FBS to remain in the marriage in the first place.

But the very basics of the MB program, when followed by betrayed husbands, is that the husband still has work to do to win his wife back IF he chooses the recovery path. If you wait for your wife to offer JC without leading the way, recovery very often will not work.

It may not seem fair, but Dr. Harley says that in both cases, a wayward husband AND a betrayed husband, that the husband has the work of winning over the wife IF recovery is what is wanted.

And to recover a marriage, the marriage has to be much much better than it ever was, even better than it was in the beginning of the marriage. Or it's not really recovery.

Sure the EPs are non-negotiable, and by negotiating on them, you capitulated.

But from what you've said, you've also capitulated on UA time spent doing fun things you both really enjoy.

Posted By: sunnydaze53 Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/18/14 07:29 PM
No where in his response to us did he mention that I must "win her back" to following the basics of the program that a FWS agrees to for the FBS to remain in the marriage in the first place.



Don't know how to do the quotes but it is all here.

She is not agreeing and you are still remaining.


Nobody has said that you must "win her back". They have simply said that you have 2 choices.....leave, go to plan B

OR

Attempt to get her reengaged in the program by "winning her back"

She has no interest in protecting or caring for you because there is nothing in it for her and nothing negative to happen if she doesn't.

Why would someone participate in a grueling, painful exercise program? Either a doctor has informed them they will die or become severely incapacitated (they have something to lose)
or they want to have a gorgeous body and feel healthy and active or excel at a sport (something to gain).

Your wife has neither incentive to participate.

Posted By: black_raven Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/18/14 07:50 PM
hfd, when is she supposed to start the new job?

Are you going to make a decision without it being dependent on polling the posters?
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/18/14 07:52 PM
Ok, so I think I understand.

And I guess maybe I need to accept that with all the BS she's put me through, and all of the hard work just to end her affair, and all the hard work to try to get us into recovery, and all the hard wotk been the only one even making an attempt to have UA time / meet ENs...

...that I am either just too emotionally drained and spent or too apathetic toward the whole thing(or lazy, or whatever put down that'll come my way now)to put even more work in for a person who, honestly, never really bought into the program to build a new marriage (no NC letter, trickle-truth, etc.), and continues -- according to Dr. Harley -- to violate the basic tenets of the program.

My wife cheated on me and 4 years later it's my fault she's working 7 miles from the OM. And I'm mentally, spiritually done, I'm exhausted and tired of rowing in circles.

Maybe that's just my sad reality, and I need to decide what action I should do next.

I appreciate the feedback. Thank you!
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/18/14 08:00 PM
Sorry, BR...you are correct.

I usually like to hear back from a select few, even when they're tough on me -- Mel and Marital and JK especially -- as I consider things.

I really don't know when she starts -- she's been mad at me since I shared my feelings on Friday (when I became a "bad husband" for not being happy for her or supporting her new job)and I've received very little conversation from her, even though I've tried initiating, no affection...she's pretty much ignored since I told her I'm not enthusiastic about her decision and feel hurt becasue it doesn't show care.

HFM relistened to Dr. Harley's response and agreed to a GPS in the car, phone, and even offered to wear a GPS bracelet...that really doesn't make me feel any better to be honest.

Anyway, seems like I can either leave my own bedroom (or the house), and just remove myself from the pain of her IB and ignoring the EP and "tread water" for 2 years...or, file for divorce and cut it off now and be done.

I really don't know what I'm going to do. I'm sad at it all, and all of it going away does not sound too bad sometimes.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/18/14 08:08 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
HFM relistened to Dr. Harley's response and agreed to a GPS in the car, phone, and even offered to wear a GPS bracelet...that really doesn't make me feel any better to be honest.

That will be worthless. Even the dumbest wayward knows how to get around that.

Quote
Anyway, seems like I can either leave my own bedroom (or the house), and just remove myself from the pain of her IB and ignoring the EP and "tread water" for 2 years...or, file for divorce and cut it off now and be done.

hfd, what is the point of waiting 2 years? I don't understand this 2 year time line. She will not magically become a wayward who engages in recovery and cares about your feelings in 2 years. And you and I both know that no one is going to move.

Seems to me that you are kicking the can down the road for some imaginary magic that is going to happen in 2 years.
Posted By: Prisca Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/18/14 08:18 PM
Quote
As Dr. Harley stated to us: she's not showing empathy or care or a commitment to the marriage or to me by choosing to ignore the EP and POJA in making this decision.
You keep going back to this.
Dr. Harley has also said that it is very common for most people to NOT have empathy for others. It's just human nature.

You don't need her empathy to recover.

If you want to recover, YOU are going to have to give her a reason to care for you. If you do not, then because she does not empathy for you (very common), she will have no reason to care. She needs a reason, just like anybody else does.

You also seem focused on placing blame. Either it's her fault because she doesn't have empathy, or it's your fault, because it must be SOMEBODY'S FAULT. Stop trying to place blame -- that is not marriage builders.

Quote
No where in his response to us did he mention that I must "win her back" to following the basics of the program that a FWS agrees to for the FBS to remain in the marriage in the first place.
Dr. Harley talks about this all the time on the radio show. If you have spent the last 4 years here listening, you would know. You have been here as long as markos -- you have had the exact same opportunity for education as he has. Yet your knowledge remains on the level of a newbie. You have wasted these years.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/18/14 08:35 PM
I was just sharing what Dr. Harley stated most recently in his response to the email I was encouraged to send to him.

Yes, I'm kicking the can down the road for 2 years until I can move away from this place, and away from hfm if need be, at that time.

Doesn't sound like much of a plan, but I've gotten through 4 years, so what's 2 more? I can do it.
Posted By: Prisca Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/18/14 08:37 PM
So you're going with Plan C? Dr. Harley wouldn't recommend that at all.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/18/14 08:41 PM
I suppose that's my default; make the best of it.

Dr. Harley also wouldn't recommend negotiating established EPs but that doesn't seem to be the issue, apparently.
Posted By: Prisca Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/18/14 08:57 PM
No one has told you to negotiate EPs. banghead
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/18/14 09:03 PM
I'm aware.

Dr. Harley stated that hfmis violating the EP and POJA by choosing the IB to work in OMs county.

I know if we didn't live here, then this wouldn't be a problem. Why that "absolves" the decision is beyond me. Just because my wife cheated doesn't mean I can too. Just because we haven't moved doesn't mean she should work 7 miles from his house.

But, it is what it is.

I see that this has gone on for about 42 pages too long, and I'm becoming tedious for you and Markos, and I apologize. I did everything he asked me to in eliminating my LB --the AOs. And I'm proud of myself for that. I am a better person for it and a, grateful he pushed me on that!
Posted By: jessitaylor Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/18/14 09:29 PM
Helpfordad,

I think what your wife does is independent thinking for her needs. And no wonder that hurts you that she doesn't seem to care what you feel or think about it.

this should be a deal breaker if she has previously agreed to not be close to where the OM works she will in fact be violating a previous agreement���the trust for you is broken here you can't trust her to consider you or your feelings on this and anything else she wants���.

If I were you I would sit here down calmly and tell her she has broken a promise to you and that it has broken that trust you wanted to have in her���and that you are going to think about whether you can stay in the marriage with this woman she has chosen to be after her affair���Tell her it hurts you what she did then and now and if she doesn't care about that that you do��it is the most important part having a wife that won't chose to hurt you�..for her needs like she did in the affair.

I hear you about staying for the kids as parents we do that bargaining but it won't work everyone will suffer��.your son will notice it isn't right HFD.

Your wife needs to decide who she is going to be in the marriage and if this is who she is choosing you will never feel safe or happy��..reality�.sorry

I would tell her you need time to think about what is best for you with her choosing to be this person ��..
Tell her when she has a plan for both of you and a trust that can keep you safe you will listen but until then she should plan for a separation because you will have nothing too if she doesn't change��
I agree that when she decides to be your wife you will have to change her attitude about the marriage and how it will be��that what you have done hasn't worked and changes will have to be made���
You go about your business and show a happy you and get on with life ��..
She needs to understand independent decisions are going to leave her alone in life, she will have to chose what she can live with��..
You don't sound happy and it doesn't sound like your needs are being met ��It doesn't sound like you are in love with her��.you love her but ��..
it's not enough she has to be engaged she has to want to be engaged she has to want to make YOU happy��..it doesn't sound like she really cares enough about that sure she loves you ��.draw a line in the sand step back give her time to realize what that independent decision has done to her marriage and you��.
just be a broken record about not being able to trust her considering your feelings and needs. or living up to her word about EP's that it's a deal breaker.
You want to have a marriage not a roommate, not independent life decisions�you want respect for your feelings��..You are not a bad husband for being unhappy she is going to be closer to her Om, that it's not unreasonable to want that and that you are sad that she is so selfish that you can see she doesn't get it even after all these years���.and then walk away and tell her you need time to think�
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/18/14 09:52 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I was just sharing what Dr. Harley stated most recently in his response to the email I was encouraged to send to him.

Yes, I'm kicking the can down the road for 2 years until I can move away from this place, and away from hfm if need be, at that time.

Doesn't sound like much of a plan, but I've gotten through 4 years, so what's 2 more? I can do it.

Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by markos
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/18/14 09:53 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I'm aware.

Dr. Harley stated that hfmis violating the EP and POJA by choosing the IB to work in OMs county.

I know if we didn't live here, then this wouldn't be a problem. Why that "absolves" the decision is beyond me.

Nobody has said that it does.

Now ... back to "What can I do about this?"
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/18/14 09:55 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I did everything he asked me to in eliminating my LB --the AOs. And I'm proud of myself for that. I am a better person for it and a, grateful he pushed me on that!

You need to be pushed on winning back your wife. I know you've tried - but UA didn't hit the mark and needs to be adjusted.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/18/14 09:57 PM
How about "What can HFM do about this?"


Like Dr. Harley said to her in his response:

"The wife should not take that job."



I'm going for a walk,becasue I need a break from all of this.

Life is getting weary to me.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/18/14 10:07 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
How about "What can HFM do about this?"


Like Dr. Harley said to her in his response:

"The wife should not take that job."

Everyone on this website knows what your wife can and should do about this.

But she's not going to.

So, given that, what you could do is use Marriage Builders, the plan you have been ignoring and cutting corners on for four years.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/18/14 10:08 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
How about "What can HFM do about this?"

It is clear that you don't care about your wife's perspective at all. You don't know what it is, and you don't feel it should be a factor in the conversation.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/18/14 10:09 PM
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by helpfordad
How about "What can HFM do about this?"

It is clear that you don't care about your wife's perspective at all.

People who are following Marriage Builders need to understand their spouse's perspective! Even when their spouse is wayward!

Plan A is a plan to offer something to your spouse to replace the affair. She never received it. You left all that stuff undone.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/18/14 10:44 PM


You are making assumptions that Im afraid I disagree with and feel are incorrect.
Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/18/14 11:35 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
You are making assumptions that Im afraid I disagree with and feel are incorrect.

Well, hfd, if you would actually listen to people who can tell what is wrong, we could help you.

Unfortunately you've always been more interested in arguing and proving yourself right.

Since you'd rather be right than be happily married, I guess I'm done.

Goodbye, sir.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/18/14 11:55 PM
And unfortunately, people here can listen, and can read...and can also disagree and express their feelings.

Too often "I feel that..." or "I may not see it that way..." gets labelled arguing.

I don't want to be right.

I want my wife to not text on the phone in bed like she did during the affair, but ignores me when Ive set that as an EP.

I want my wife to stop having AOs and cursing and throwing things at me, and who cares enough to eliminate her LBs.

I want a wife who doesn't wean herself off her depression/anxiety meds after I've taken care to make the appt and get her to the damn doctor.

I want my wife to lift a finger once in awhile and attempt to even know, care, or meet my ENs. Who isn't a Taker all the time.

I want a wife who appreciates we put our recovery on hold for 3 years becasue she was in grad school.

I want a wife who doesn't stop the POJA process as soon as she hears "I am not enthusiastic about..."

I want a wife to stop telling me "I'm glad you're my husband' or "I'm glad you stayed with me' or "I'm jinxed and have bad karma now, I am needy" and doesn't recip[rocate

You said earlier that I should be vocal in my complaints about her taking this job and how I will hurt every day she goes to that location. I've complained the MB way, shared my feelings the MB way, set EPs the MB way, tried to POJA the MB way, identified her top ENs and work to meet them the MB way.

It's not about being right...it's about a marriage program that only works with the choice to by 2 people.


Many days I'm the only one paddling...and you know where that gets you :-)

Thanks for all your help, anyway, and I do wish you well.

Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 12:01 AM
Thank you for your input jessie.

It's nice to to read your perspective on the situation.

Be well.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 02:36 AM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I was just sharing what Dr. Harley stated most recently in his response to the email I was encouraged to send to him.

Yes, I'm kicking the can down the road for 2 years until I can move away from this place, and away from hfm if need be, at that time.

Doesn't sound like much of a plan, but I've gotten through 4 years, so what's 2 more? I can do it.

This is exactly what my cousin did and he was worse off because of it.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 02:38 AM
Did Dr. Harley respond to your second email to him?
Posted By: zibbles Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 03:05 AM
She's a renter and you're a buyer. She seems to have zero interest in becoming a buyer.

I'm with Black Raven, Jedi, Jessie and some others. I say GET OUT.

Yes, Markos won his wife back. It is extraordinary. EXTRA ORDINARY. And I believe from having been here awhile that Prisca was naturally more of a buyer than your wife.

All the gushy "you saved me!!" your wife said right after her affair was over the top and insincere. I never bought it and I'm pretty sure you didn't either.

Get busy living.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 10:54 AM
I think that's what I've been trying to explain, and I'm sorry I didn't have the right words and it has come out as argumentative.

I feel HFM is a Renter, not a Buyer. I honestly don't even know if she is aware of those terms that Dr. Harley uses.

And she has been from the get-go. Meaning, I used the carrot of Plan A for awhile but not the stick and then I exposed and I followed the instructions about once the affair has been exposed sit down the WS and present the MB program and the list of EPs to follow that will "keep me in this marriage" and get a commitment to follow the program and read SAA and LoveBusters and HNHN and I did that.

But from the very beginning, there were aspects of MB program that she wasn't thrilled with, were uncomfortable, and she felt controlling -- from the very outset of "committing" to the marriage.

I understand what Markos is saying -- but I've followed the posts, and even though He and Prisca had bumps in the road, Prisca at some point put her stake in the ground and committed to being a Buyer.

Simply not having another affair does not a Buyer make.

On Wednesday, I asked her: "would you be interested in spending the $995 and complete the on-line counseling program with me?" And she doesn't jump for joy, or initiate the phone call, or say "boy, we really could use it" or "yes, and maybe we'll get a chance to speak with Dr. Harley himself."

NO. She replied: "well, if it's something YOU want to do, or think you would benefit from..."

I weep sometimes because I don't know that anyone understands what I'm going through here...I am NOT the perfect MBer, and I am NOT expecting perfection from HFM.

But at least I am trying, I'm buying, I'm not calling Dr. Harley "crazy" or "weird" and I am NOT breaking EPs, POJA, or engaging in IBs.

(which, I guess, I can do now anyway since she has and that's not really a marriage now, is it?)
Posted By: zibbles Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 01:05 PM
She sees the protection of the marriage as control. She was just waiting for a period of time to get her IB back. She thinks enough time will give her her freedom again because she's 'paid' for her mistake.

Her whole way of thinking undermines the marriage. The way she sees EP's as 'punishment', the way she has sucked up to you at the exact moment she needed to to get what she wanted, the way she continues to lie around and mope because you won't let her have the job SHE wants. She can get a different job! This is not the only job in the world but her defiance is offensive and cruel.

Perhaps you could win her back and make her see the advantage of the marriage but I think the chances are slim to none. This lady is selfish, self centered and does not care about you or creating a great marriage. SHe clearly isn't thinking about what's good for the kids if she's willing to treat you this way.

I would call her on her bluff and 'just let her go.' I would NOT move into a bedroom down the hall into your son graduates. That sounds agonizing for all. Start separation plans. Who know, it might wake her up.

Not to be all 'told you so' but IF this marriage had a shot, a move would helped immensely. It might not be too late to pull up stakes as a family. You'd still have a ton of work to do but the power of a new environment cannot be understated.

Life is too short for this.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 01:18 PM
We have to keep in mind, that this marriage is like the chain smoker who was told by his doctor to quit smoking numerous times, yet now has lung cancer and is mad at the cigarette company.

It's not just the wife showing lack of care but they both have placed other priorities above their marriage.

They should have moved 4 years ago and may have had an entirely different outcome.

HFD has Dr. Harley responded to the second email you sent him?
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 01:30 PM
I don't know.

My work computers do not allow me to stream it due to the filters. I can't check for the rebroadcast until I'm home from work today.

I understand we both decided not to move. Are you saying that that decision then "allows" hfm to ignore EPs or Poja, or that somehow I am getting what I 'deserve' because of it? We haven't moved yet, so throw ALL of MB out the window?

I guess when hfm states "I am committed to the marriage, I just don't agree that I have to obey that EP (working in OMs county) because I feel better and I trust me", that's all okay because it's my fault that we've agreed to not move yet?

All attempts to listen to Dr. Harley's new response will be made as soon as I get a foot in the door.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 01:45 PM
I don't know if he responded.
Usually they will email you and let you know that your email was addressed (but not always)
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 01:45 PM
I must admit to some level of resentment because it feels like so long as I was doing for her the last 3 years -- getting her through her grad program -- everything MB was fine.

Many things started going back to the way before once she graduated and stopped her meds...

Yes, I feel she sees EPs as "punishment" and yes, I feel she sees it as doing some MB things until she feels she's done 'paying' for her mistake (rather than a building program).

I also get tired of her telling me that I'm paranoid and obsess and that I'm being silly about this and just 'move on' and I am paralyzing her career and my feelings are 'hindering her' and that I'm not healing as well as I should be and need professional help and that time means 'nothing to me now' and I'm pulling her down and Dr. Harley doesn't know the full context so of course he's going to "agree with you' on this.

I mean, really?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 01:48 PM
If I were you, I would enroll in the program. Let Dr Harley and her coach work on her and do all the work. Who cares if she thinks the program is just "for you?" ALMOST ALL COUPLES who sign up for the program have one reluctant partner. That is what Dr Harley is good at overcoming.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 01:50 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
On Wednesday, I asked her: "would you be interested in spending the $995 and complete the on-line counseling program with me?" And she doesn't jump for joy, or initiate the phone call, or say "boy, we really could use it" or "yes, and maybe we'll get a chance to speak with Dr. Harley himself."

NO. She replied: "well, if it's something YOU want to do, or think you would benefit from..."

Tell her: "I have decided it is something I want to do because I am so unhappy. I want us to have a great marriage where we are both happy. Will you join me in the program"

Wife: you can do it alone

hfd: well, the program can't be done alone. It is a couples program and I am asking you to do this for me.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 01:53 PM
I am, and I will, Mel.

I know this will be hard for Markos to agree with ha, ha and frankly it's an embarrassment on just what a "work in progress" I am even as an adult, but I feel I have grown a great deal with this program.

I am a much better man, father, yes, husband...less angry person, more confident since I have found this site.

I have worked hard to repair past wrongs, I'm speaking with my family again...just many good things since being here.

But I'm not resting on my laurels...
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 01:56 PM
I think a huge reason your wife is still so fogged out is because you live right there in the same environment the affair took place. It is like an alcoholic hanging around the bar every day. His mind never quite clears up. After all, the OM is still the topic of conversation 4 years later.
Posted By: black_raven Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 01:57 PM
Ditto to all zibbles posted.

Originally Posted by helpfordad
I weep sometimes because I don't know that anyone understands what I'm going through here...I am NOT the perfect MBer, and I am NOT expecting perfection from HFM.

People understand what you are going through, hfd.

What is very clear to me is like too many BSs, when a (F)WS breaks an EP, refuses to POJA or provide EXTRAORDINARY care, instead of pulling the trigger on Plan B or D because enough is enough, the BS whines and complains about his/her lot in life vs letting go of the death grip they have on a bad marriage. That is now you hfd. At some point a BS, VOLUNTEERS to continue the misery.

I disagree with others that this is not an affair issue. The OM is and always will be a factor in your lives. When you complained in your email that you are basically tired of OM being a consideration in your lives, Dr H told you that's just how it is whether either of you like it or not. That is simply the reality of consequences from infidelity. Every single BS who decides to try to recover the marriage has to live with that...not just you.

The next email after yours asked about the order of the steps to SAA and EPs was first. Even though you are years out from a Dday, EPs are still first. I don't see any point in increasing UA time or meeting needs or negotiating x, y or z when an EP is blown to bits. Ignoring the elephant is not going to change the elephant sitting in front of you.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 02:36 PM
Mel,

I know. It is just very difficult NOT to believe her when she knows, and is sincere, in her expressions of "I have destroyed my life" or "I have humiliated myself in the worst way a woman could".

It's like I just KNOW she would never sacrifice herself physically or emotionally in this way again.

But see, I'm okay believing in the MB principle that tells me I CAN'T "just believe" in that...and that there are no "down sides" to EPs...if they are "wrong", the consequence is a strong marriage!

I feel hfm feels or knows internally she won't go down this path again (if I listed all of the things that have gone wrong in her life for 4 years, ALL of which she attributes to her actions), and sees the EPs/POJA as "unnecessary" now, because she repeats often: "I have learned my lesson".

I feel the MB program ENSURES that neither of us does this, and that's not a bad thing.
Posted By: armymama Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 03:29 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Mel,

I know. It is just very difficult NOT to believe her when she knows, and is sincere, in her expressions of "I have destroyed my life" or "I have humiliated myself in the worst way a woman could".

It's like I just KNOW she would never sacrifice herself physically or emotionally in this way again.

But see, I'm okay believing in the MB principle that tells me I CAN'T "just believe" in that...and that there are no "down sides" to EPs...if they are "wrong", the consequence is a strong marriage!

I feel hfm feels or knows internally she won't go down this path again (if I listed all of the things that have gone wrong in her life for 4 years, ALL of which she attributes to her actions), and sees the EPs/POJA as "unnecessary" now, because she repeats often: "I have learned my lesson".

I feel the MB program ENSURES that neither of us does this, and that's not a bad thing.

In our case, according to OWH, these are typical of the comments from OW for a few months and THEN she started the affair with my H.

Please understand that your wife has no idea of how to prevent an affair.

AM
Posted By: black_raven Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 03:35 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
It's like I just KNOW she would never sacrifice herself physically or emotionally in this way again.

crazy crazy

That's always the case until it happens...again. Same as most never thought they would have a Dday in the first place because their spouse would NEVER...

Even if she never did sacrifice herself again, she is willing to sacrifice you today and tomorrow.

Posted By: mrEureka Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 03:45 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I feel hfm feels or knows internally she won't go down this path again (if I listed all of the things that have gone wrong in her life for 4 years, ALL of which she attributes to her actions), and sees the EPs/POJA as "unnecessary" now, because she repeats often: "I have learned my lesson".

I feel the MB program ENSURES that neither of us does this, and that's not a bad thing.
She hasn't learned the lesson, because a primary tenet of that lesson is that *everyone* is prone to affairs if the conditions that would make an affair possible exist. The biggest lesson I learned from my wife's affair was that *I* could have an affair too if I wasn't more careful! Your wife is not being the least bit careful, so the lesson has not been learned. She just thinks that she will be immune to another affair because she knows better now. That actually makes her more likely to have another affair!
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 04:06 PM
******Edit*****
She says that the "conditions that led to the affair" have been removed: that it was our marriage, our not meeting each other's ENs, never POJA anything, etc. that helped create the environment for the affair, NOT the workplace setting (trying to make me feel better, I guess, "it could've happened anywhere I was..."


She "said" she'd join me in the online coaching. we'll see.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 05:07 PM
Well then go with the plan and stick with it.
Do as MelodyLane suggested and let the coach and Dr. Harley deal with getting her on board.
You just focus on making love bank deposits and avoiding Love Busters.

And focus on the plan, Sir.
If the outfielder is daydreaming or upset he's not going to catch the ball.
Make this your plan for a set number of months...3...6?

So future posts should be about the online program and how to make love bank deposits and avoid withdrawls
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 05:21 PM
I think I'll do the online coaching, but...I'm not playing the Plan A sucker like I did before.

I did the work -- I'm not rewarding the behaviors of breaking EPs and POJA, etc.

A cop doesn't hug me and take me to a jazz bar after breaking the speed limit to "incentivize" me not to do it again..

She already went out today for new uniforms for her new job and didn't tell me until now.

No, no, no.

I'm starting with the coaching, if only for me.
Posted By: Prisca Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 05:54 PM
Zibbles, hfd is NOT A BUYER. Buyers care about their spouse's perspective. HFD is a renter, just like his wife.

Are you actually going to follow through with the coaching this time, hfd? This isn't the first time you have been talked into getting help.
Posted By: Prisca Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 05:59 PM
Quote
I did the work -- I'm not rewarding the behaviors of breaking EPs and POJA, etc.

A cop doesn't hug me and take me to a jazz bar after breaking the speed limit to "incentivize" me not to do it again.
Your marriage will not make it if you continue with that attitude. She will never fall in love with you.
Comparing yourself to a cop? Really?
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 06:04 PM
Stupid.

I was upset when I typed it....when I can't get in touch with her, and she doesn't answer her phone for an hour, and THEN she tells me she was out shopping for clothes for the job that I didn't agree to, it's upsetting.

It made me feel uneasy and unsafe like before.

I shouldn't have blasted that out, though.

I am a Buyer, because I DO know her perspective. I sought hers out, and listened intently when she shared it. I respect it, even if I disagree with it, as I have told her.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 06:12 PM
Dr Harley read your email around the 40 minute mark today.
Posted By: Prisca Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 06:18 PM
W Again, I point out that hfd has been here as long as Markos. He should be just as knowledgeable as Markos.

Yet he has spent the 4 years here cherry picking, cutting corners, ignoring advice. He could've saved his marriage years ago if he had followed the plan instead of fighting every step of the way. If he had put his mind to it, he could've won his wife and made her fall in love with him. Instead, he scoffs at the thought.

Markos didn't win me because I am somehow better than hfd's wife. He won me because he actually followed the plan. There is nothing magical about our story (other than I find him terribly romantic for having fought for me and I secretly swoon in his presence. HE FOUGHT FOR ME. Don't show him the disrespect of suggesting I was an easy catch). Any husband could do what Markos did. HFD hadn't even tried. He scoffs. Markos would not have me had he so openly scoffed.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 06:19 PM
Any chance of getting a brief synopsis now?

I won't be on my home computer until after 4 pm EST.

Thank you.

****edit****
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 06:27 PM
***edit****
"I need trust too, and that has been destroyed by your actions. Taking that job has been a knife in my back. It is as hurtful to me as your affair."

SEND THAT NOW. Do not argue with me!!
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 06:29 PM
I just did.

What's pissing her off the most is when she said Dr. Harley called her "weak" and that she'd "rekindle something with OM" if she took the job.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 06:37 PM
She's also now bailing from the coaching ***edit***
***edit****
*****edit****
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 06:38 PM
***edit****
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 06:40 PM
***edit****
Posted By: FightTheFight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 06:42 PM
It sounds to me she feels like she has "served her time for the crime" and now it's time for life to go on as it was before.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 06:42 PM
***edit***
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 06:43 PM
FTF,

Im sorry, I didn't know how to take your comment, serious or sarcastic?
Posted By: FightTheFight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 06:44 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
FTF,

Im sorry, I didn't know how to take your comment, serious or sarcastic?

I'm serious. I think that is her perspective. That MB has been her punishment for her crime of infidelity and she feels like she has served out her sentence.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 06:47 PM
Oh, got it.

I'm not disagreeing that you could be right that that is her prerogative.

Is it okay with you that her "get out of jail" card places her 7 miles from the OMs house, though? And that she violated an established EP in making that decision independently?

I am curious about your thoughts.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 06:51 PM
***edit****





Very nice...
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 06:57 PM
Yeah, like marriage stops infidelity.

Geez...
Posted By: FightTheFight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 06:58 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Oh, got it.

I'm not disagreeing that you could be right that that is her prerogative.

Is it okay with you that her "get out of jail" card places her 7 miles from the OMs house, though? And that she violated an established EP in making that decision independently?

I am curious about your thoughts.

No, not at all. I think our situations have some similarities which is why I have been following it.

BTW, I'm not sure if that is a misspell on your part, but I said that's her perspective not prerogative.

Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 07:00 PM
Yes, my mistake. I'm sorry.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 07:03 PM
***edit***

I need to get home later to hear Dr. H's response...
Posted By: FightTheFight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 07:15 PM
Look, what she is doing with this job thing is wrong. It just is. You could divorce her if you want. Let's just put that to the side for the moment.

This might help me too.

Just looking at it from her perspective as a thought exercise.

What exactly is it that HFM has gotten out of MB for the last four years from her perspective? She gets to stay? What else? If you were her, what would you say you have gotten out of it?
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 07:17 PM
I have to sign off for a little while, but I'll end with this:

****edit****


I'll touch base in 30.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 07:23 PM
FTF, Real quick...

I feel HFM would say at the very least it kept her family and marriage in tact. That she has grown (yes, she has actually) in personal areas, 'her side of the street' stuff. Taught her boundaries, confidence, especially dealing with family and coworkers. Made her a better parent.

Generally -- at least when it agrees with her I guess -- liked that we POJAd things, that we did have EPs...healthier communication, less arguments, it taught me to eliminate AOs, meet her needs better...we actually enjoy our UA time most of the time.

Posted By: markos Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 07:30 PM
helpfordad, can you let your wife know that I have posted to her on her thread and would like to talk with her here? She may not be willing, but I would like to talk with her, and I'm sure my wife Prisca would be willing to talk with her as well. Maybe she would be willing to listen to us.
Posted By: FightTheFight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 07:42 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
FTF, Real quick...

I feel HFM would say at the very least it kept her family and marriage in tact. That she has grown (yes, she has actually) in personal areas, 'her side of the street' stuff. Taught her boundaries, confidence, especially dealing with family and coworkers. Made her a better parent.

Generally -- at least when it agrees with her I guess -- liked that we POJAd things, that we did have EPs...healthier communication, less arguments, it taught me to eliminate AOs, meet her needs better...we actually enjoy our UA time most of the time.

If you can get into a calm conversation where you just ask her this question, and let her answer without you commenting on it in any way, it would be interesting to see her answer. Don't respond, don't argue even if she is wrong, just listen.

I may just do this myself this evening.

Are you on any kind of AD? You might need it if you are going to stick around for the next two years.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 07:54 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
HFM:

***edit****

I need to get home later to hear Dr. H's response...

Dr Harley said to tell her "taking that job is like a knife in my heart. It hurts as bad as your affair." I think you should text her that AGAIN. Keep saying that.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 07:57 PM
I will.

I have to admit...I feel like I've got 2 camps here giving me conflicting advice.

Seems like I've had Markos and Prisca hammering ME on this, then there's Jedi, zibbles, raven...Melody?

Not a side-taking thing...just a difference of approaches it seems.

Am I getting 2 different MB interpretations here, or 2 sides of the same MB coin?

Posted By: FightTheFight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 08:03 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by helpfordad
HFM:

***edit****

I need to get home later to hear Dr. H's response...

Dr Harley said to tell her "taking that job is like a knife in my heart. It hurts as bad as your affair." I think you should text her that AGAIN. Keep saying that.

He also said he did not recommend divorcing her. He said it was perfectly logical that HFD would want to stay married for the next couple of years while his child was in school.

Since that's what he has decided to do, it seems that time could be used wisely to win his wife back. After all, they were discussing the affair as late as last year this time. Many mistakes have been made.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 09:50 PM

I
Originally Posted by FightTheFight
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by helpfordad
HFM:

***edit****

I need to get home later to hear Dr. H's response...

Dr Harley said to tell her "taking that job is like a knife in my heart. It hurts as bad as your affair." I think you should text her that AGAIN. Keep saying that.

He also said he did not recommend divorcing her. He said it was perfectly logical that HFD would want to stay married for the next couple of years while his child was in school.

Since that's what he has decided to do, it seems that time could be used wisely to win his wife back. After all, they were discussing the affair as late as last year this time. Many mistakes have been made.

I agree, but Dr Harley also said he should tell her the above. If he does decide to stay 2 years and then divorce her, he should also tell her that.

I am hopeful he can persuade her to go through the course. She would benefit the MOST.



Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 09:53 PM
Originally Posted by FightTheFight
[
He also said he did not recommend divorcing her. He said it was perfectly logical that HFD would want to stay married for the next couple of years while his child was in school.

Now, I did not hear that. Dr Harley said he would not take a stand on divorce. So he doesn't recommend for or against, because he lets the person make that decision. He did not recommend AGAINST divorce. He did say that hfds idea about staying around for 2 years and then divorcing her is fine but he needs to tell her now that is his plan.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 09:55 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I will.

I have to admit...I feel like I've got 2 camps here giving me conflicting advice.

Seems like I've had Markos and Prisca hammering ME on this, then there's Jedi, zibbles, raven...Melody?

Not a side-taking thing...just a difference of approaches it seems.

Am I getting 2 different MB interpretations here, or 2 sides of the same MB coin?

Dr Harley said if you want to stay until you son graduates and then divorce her that is just fine with him. He said to tell her you plan on doing that. He also said to tell her that taking that job is a "knife in your heart, just like the affair."

My advice is that you do your best to lure her into the MB program if you are going to stay around. Make the best use of your time. The MB program is in her best interest because she will end up with a happy, fulfilled marriage that way. I don't think it has been sold to her that way.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 10:22 PM
hfd, I really need you to drive home another idea with her because it is pretty obvious that she believes Marriage Builders is only for you and it is only about affairs. I would be a broken record when you tell her that the Marriage Builders coaching is all about making sure that he starts showing care for her. We are concerned that she is not getting the care she needs and we can teach you how to care for each other.

Now, I don't mean it is "caring" to pretend like her taking this job by the OM is a good thing. Don't get confused about that. Let her know how devastated you are about it but then drop the subject.
Posted By: FightTheFight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 10:46 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by FightTheFight
[
He also said he did not recommend divorcing her. He said it was perfectly logical that HFD would want to stay married for the next couple of years while his child was in school.

Now, I did not hear that. Dr Harley said he would not take a stand on divorce. So he doesn't recommend for or against, because he lets the person make that decision. He did not recommend AGAINST divorce. He did say that hfds idea about staying around for 2 years and then divorcing her is fine but he needs to tell her now that is his plan.

That's true. He did not recommend against divorce. Dr Harley did say that he did not agree with the posters on the forum that he should divorce her. But he did also say that they would not survive this affair.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/19/14 10:50 PM
Originally Posted by FightTheFight
[

That's true. He did not recommend against divorce. Dr Harley did say that he did not agree with the posters on the forum that he should divorce her. But he did also say that they would not survive this affair.
\\

I believe his point was that we shouldn't tell him what to decide about divorce, that the decision should be made entirely by him. He wasn't saying he is against divorce, but against the forum telling him to get divorced.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/20/14 01:14 AM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I will.

I have to admit...I feel like I've got 2 camps here giving me conflicting advice.

Seems like I've had Markos and Prisca hammering ME on this, then there's Jedi, zibbles, raven...Melody?

Not a side-taking thing...just a difference of approaches it seems.

Am I getting 2 different MB interpretations here, or 2 sides of the same MB coin?
You should do what Dr. Harley tells you.
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/20/14 01:40 AM
HFD,

The members here are very good, but they are not Dr. Harley and his staff.

If I were in your shoes I'd be ready to invest in at least two or three individual counseling sessions with him to discuss all your concerns about your W, the decision you made Not to move, and if, given all the above, it would be worth your while to invest in the online program given that your W may not participate. Maybe you could negotiate with him a reduced fee for the online program if you started and your W backed out. I don't think that emailing him with bits and pieces of your marital problems, and hearing his brief comments will suffice at this point. I think that YOU need in-depth individual counseling to start. I think YOU need his assessment of what you have been doing wrong up to this point (your decision to 'kick the can' and NOT to move for one). And, like I said it's going to take a few sessions for them to get to know you and your situation. Hopefully through their coaching you will gain some insight on bringing your W on-board for MB counseling. If she is still reluctant, then you will know where you stand. much more than you do now.

It seems like you're the type of person who won't take advice except from a professional (like the Harleys), but it seems you are afraid to do that. So, I think you're trying to nibble at MB by asking for advice here from the members who are not professionally trained, but have advice from their personal experience to offer, and you feel that with Plan HFD you can cowtow them into sympathy for you and your plan. And another thought I have - maybe your W has declined to enroll in MB or even post on here because you are still too controlling and judging of her,, and possibly blaming and resentful as well. Think you need to find a way to allow her to have individual input to the Harleys' from her standpoint.

Just my thoughts, but you two guys are spinning your wheels badly, and are going nowhere.

Tom
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/20/14 01:46 AM
Dr.Harley is not in active practice and does not take on clients. I am pretty sure he has offered to speak to his wife.
Posted By: Justthe3ofus Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/20/14 03:33 AM
HFD,
I think you are misreading folks who are trying to help you. Almost all have actually been suggesting you either leave your wife or you take steps to recover your marriage.

First of all, everyone here understands that your wife has made the wrong choice in accepting this job. She has no regard for your feelings or for the consequences of the affair. And she should be held accountable for not sticking to this EP.

But you need to understand that most wayward wive's don't show remorse for their affair unless they fall back in love with their husbands. And the reason your wife isn't in love with you is you have not taken steps to recover your marriage.

Your resentment for her reverberates through nearly every post on this thread. And though you have every right to be very hurt by what she has done, you hold it over her as we saw in the recent message that you sent her. That was not a deposit in her love bank. It was a huge withdrawal. If this has been the tone for the past 4 years, then there is no wonder she has no regard for your safety and your feelings.

**edit**

Right now it is not in your heart to fight for the love of your life. There is too much resentment, too much hurt on your part. I get it. I've been there too. But if you don't try it then you will wind up divorced or floundering in a marriage of misery.

You said you were done with Plan A. If that is the case, then it's Plan B or Plan D. There is no other plan because your marriage never recovered from the affair.

Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/20/14 03:36 AM
Originally Posted by Justthe3ofus
You said you were done with Plan A. If that is the case, then it's Plan B or Plan D. There is no other plan because your marriage never recovered from the affair.


There is another option, as he is avidly considering:
Remain married until the boy graduates and then divorce her.
Posted By: Justthe3ofus Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/20/14 03:41 AM
You miss the bigger point, Jedi. In essence it would be Plan D because up to this point HFD has not taken the right actions to recover the marriage. And neither has his wife.
Posted By: Jedi_Knight Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/20/14 03:44 AM
Originally Posted by Justthe3ofus
You miss the bigger point, Jedi. In essence it would be Plan D because up to this point HFD has not taken the right actions to recover the marriage. And neither has his wife.

Yea, it's like a long-term Plan D.
Posted By: black_raven Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/20/14 11:59 PM
Originally Posted by Jedi_Knight
Originally Posted by Justthe3ofus
You miss the bigger point, Jedi. In essence it would be Plan D because up to this point HFD has not taken the right actions to recover the marriage. And neither has his wife.

Yea, it's like a long-term Plan D.

Or long term limbo that goes well past DS graduating HS.
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/21/14 12:01 AM
Hi Melody,

You're right. I really meant Steve Harley (and I realize he is not a PhD) or whoever else does the telephone counseling now. I was thinking maybe Dr. Harley did take on a few clients. My thought was that HFD seems to need some professional advice now to even get hi W to agree to accept any MB program because he seems to be floundering badly in this.

Tom
Posted By: Dr. Harley Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/22/14 03:56 PM
HFD:

Joyce and I covered your situation on the radio show last week, but I'd like to repeat and add to what I said then.

I've never been opposed to a betrayed spouse divorcing an unfaithful spouse. It's the most emotionally destructive act of the betrayed spouse's life. It's a blatant disregard for his or her interests. But if there is willingness on the part of both spouses to survive the affair, there is a way that it can be done if they both follow that plan. It requires extraordinary precautions, transparency, and the restoration of a romantic relationship where each spouse meets the other's emotional needs and avoids love busters.

While that plan always enables a marriage to survive when it's followed, it is not always followed. When that happens, the marriage does not survive.

In your case, your wife is not only failing to follow the POJA, an essential component of a mutually caring relationship between spouses, but she is also violating an important precaution to avoid any contact with the other man. Her decision could be the result of something you've done to drive her away, or it could simply be due to her wanting to be more independent. But regardless of the reason, her actions clearly show her unwillingness to make her marriage with you work for both of you. In your case, I would suggest that you follow plan B if she actually takes the job, and possibly even a divorce later on (but I don't want those on the forum to advise a divorce). You have every right to do either. It's your decision.

If your wife would like to discuss her point of view with Joyce and I, on or off the radio, we would be happy to respond to her by email.

Best wishes,
Dr. Harley
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/22/14 06:54 PM
Dr. Harley,

Thank you for taking the time to address the concerns from our emails on your show, and thank you for touching base here with me.

I will share your note with HFM, and hope that she will reach out to you directly to share her concerns and perspectives, as like me, she wants to remain in a happy, romantic marriage.

Thank you,

HFD
Posted By: Northwood8900 Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/22/14 10:08 PM
Hey HFD,

You came to mind a few days ago and then I ran across your thread. I'm sorry to hear of the latest developments, but I'm sure that you'll come up with a plan to move this situation forward one way or the other.

Take care.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/22/14 11:34 PM
Thanks, NW.

I'm trying. I am really trying.

Its very nice to hear from you, and hope you too are well.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/23/14 06:05 PM
I guess if I didn't make it an EP in the first place -- not working in OMs county -- then there'd be no EP to break, and this mess wouldn't be happening.

But I just don't see how that could NOT be a logical EP, you know?
Posted By: LongWayFromHome Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/23/14 06:09 PM
Even if it wasn't an EP, it was a decision that your W made unilaterally, knowing that you didn't want it. Following the Policy of Joint Agreement, as you know, is foundational to a good marriage.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/23/14 06:55 PM
There was a thread awhile back where a couple's recovery was endangered by an accidental encounter with OM.

The encounter was entirely accidental - the FBW hadn't broken any EPs or anything. She was also quite repulsed and honest about the encounter. However it triggered the BH so bad he started talking divorce. Many people won't 'get' that - but those of us who have experienced betrayal know how deep triggers can sting.

Sure they should have moved away as a couple but I just don't think they foresaw such a strength of feeling.

Hardly anybody foresees that and your wife surely does not. She thinks the question is about her having another affair. Which it is - but not entirely. Even if she sailed through an accidental encounter - it simply isn't good enough. Nor is her prioritising a job, or anything come to that, over her marriage.

I can only commiserate with you. Limbo is no fun.

Have you considered moving yourself to create a good life (affairland can't be much fun for you?), perhaps even with the intention of luring her away too?

If you're going to stay for the duration of your child's education I'm curious what you are going to say to the kids about your wife's decision to work near OM? I take it they know who and where he is? I don't say I have an answer there but that's something to consider too.

Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/23/14 07:07 PM
Indie,

Let me say that for all my flaws, I do want this marriage to not just survive, but thrive.

I do want to move away, as does HFM, but again, not until S graduates high school.

She created a list of contingencies and plan of action for herself should there be contact -- and a list of actions just in general, even if there isn't, because her working there has to look different than when she worked in a hospital before. Working in a hospital alone was not one of the conditions that led to the affair -- it would've occurred anywhere given the environment we had created in the old marriage.

Yes, the kids know who he is and where he lives and where the job is. We both discussed this issue with them, and they are "ok" with it...I believe they have seen in her life the consequences of her mistake, her behaviors the last 3 years, and have allowed her to regain some of their trust.

Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/23/14 07:12 PM
I would also add that I've reflected a lot the last several days, especially about what Markos has said, and Melody...and Dr. Harley on his show.

I don't want a divorce, this I know.

I also know I've probably spent too much time focused on the "kill the affair" aspects of MB, and not enough on the "build a romantic marriage" aspect, and that HFM and I haven't focused our attention enough to learning mutual care.

I suspect that's one reason she's felt like she has about MB -- it's been too much a reminder of her mistake (and consequences thereof) and not enough of a plan to BUILD the kind of marriage she desires.

The coaching program should address this.

I am still heartbroken about her decision, the process she decided without POJA, etc. to accept it. So, I'm in between 2 worlds right now:

I do not want to Plan B/separate, I want a great marriage WITH hfm...but every day she goes to that job causes me pain.
Posted By: Northwood8900 Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/23/14 08:28 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
She created a list of contingencies and plan of action for herself should there be contact...

Sorry, but, to me, that's worth about as much as a bucket of warm spit.

She's already picking and choosing which EPs to follow, so her word is worth zilch here. To bother with "contingencies" is a complete distraction from the elephant squatting in the room...that to just go ahead and take the job KNOWING DAMNED WELL how much it hurts you is just so freaking incredibly FUBAR that I cannot even put it into words. It goes into that "I don't give a damn about his feelings, I'm going to do whatever the hell I want" category that most find truly repulsive and reminiscent of an active wayward.


It is not your fault that she is choosing to hurt you.


I don't care how good or bad of a husband you were the last four years. That doesn't give her a pass to do this. There are still certain levels of human decency and empathy that must be followed in polite society and it's not unreasonable for you to expect her to follow them. Period.

There has to be a line drawn to indicate just what you will and will not accept in a marriage to her or else this is just the beginning of a whole host of "violations" that will send this spiraling.

To say "This is what it will take for me to remain in this marriage" is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.










Posted By: BrainHurts Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/24/14 02:39 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
The coaching program should address this.

Are you signing up for the online program?
Posted By: Mrs_Recon6mo Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/24/14 02:53 PM
As much as I loved my job when I was having an affair, I chose to have completely different one when we started in recovery. This was just part of the EP's to leave my job behind, together with those colleagues and all. I was educated as a professional book editor. But as I have good management skills, I work now in IT, as a project leader. The life afterwards has given me plenty of possibilities to still edit books, just to the other publishers and as a freelancer.

We started our own business with DH 3 yrs ago, just to be together more, to support this MB way of life, and now that we are both working on the same area of expertise, we actually have a lot to discuss and we are having a lot more fun than we used to.
HFM may feel that she has no other way with this job of hers, but this is just the matter of brainstorming, I think. People have different skills, they can even turn their hobbies to be full-time jobs if they thought out of the box.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/24/14 04:35 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by helpfordad
The coaching program should address this.

Are you signing up for the online program?



Good question. I thought your W was gaslighting you about MB now.

Very confusing.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/24/14 04:40 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
She created a list of contingencies and plan of action for herself should there be contact -- and a list of actions just in general, even if there isn't, because her working there has to look different than when she worked in a hospital before. Working in a hospital alone was not one of the conditions that led to the affair -- it would've occurred anywhere given the environment we had created in the old marriage.

Please don't insult our intelligence with posts like this. This is a stupid thing to say and I do not appreciate. This is like saying "we are creating a list of contingencies for drunk driving." You must beleive that you can gaslight us into thinking that "making contingencies" to go work right by the OM makes any difference.

It is posts like this that really turns me off from reading your threads. I am not stupid and neither is anyone else here.
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/24/14 04:42 PM
Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
"But regardless of the reason, her actions clearly show her unwillingness to make her marriage with you work for both of you. In your case, I would suggest that you follow plan B if she actually takes the job, and possibly even a divorce later on (but I don't want those on the forum to advise a divorce). You have every right to do either. It's your decision."
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/24/14 04:44 PM
Its your decision to stay, which I fully expected. But please don't insult our intelligence by telling us you are developing "contingencies" with a wayward who is breaking EPs and doens't give a DAMN about EPs or your feelings.

You can put lipstick on that pig but you still have a pig.
We see the pig even though you don't.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/24/14 04:46 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
"I am not taking part in a cult any more that tells me I'm weak and all situations are dealt with the same."

Originally Posted by helpfordad
HFM:

"HFD, only this cult would tell you that job is dangerous to us, even though it's been over 4 years. I focus on you and the kids, but you focus on him. He might be married for all I know. You need help. I think you are truly crazy and I am becoming scared of telling you the truth. You talk about him so much with this job you should date him."

Very nice...

Originally Posted by helpfordad
I have to sign off for a little while, but I'll end with this:

"HFD, I don't care about Dr. H so don't bring him into our marriage...I'm not interested in what he has to say. I'm sorry you feel I don't care about you, however you will not dictate where I can work because of an event 4 years ago. You need to focus on now. I resent you..."

Has she changed her position? My sense from reading these quotes and from what Dr Harley had to say is that she will not want anything to do with MB if it does not support her IB.

Posted By: SusieQ Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/24/14 04:56 PM
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by helpfordad
She created a list of contingencies and plan of action for herself should there be contact -- and a list of actions just in general, even if there isn't, because her working there has to look different than when she worked in a hospital before. Working in a hospital alone was not one of the conditions that led to the affair -- it would've occurred anywhere given the environment we had created in the old marriage.

Please don't insult our intelligence with posts like this. This is a stupid thing to say and I do not appreciate. This is like saying "we are creating a list of contingencies for drunk driving." You must beleive that you can gaslight us into thinking that "making contingencies" to go work right by the OM makes any difference.

It is posts like this that really turns me off from reading your threads. I am not stupid and neither is anyone else here.

Oh

My

Word!!!!

I didn't even get to this part yet.

I agree with ML. That EP list is ridiculous.

Besides, the EPs at this point is a smaller part of a much bigger problem - your W's blatant disregard for POJA. Dr Harley has told you that clearly. There is no getting around that.

Posted By: SusieQ Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/24/14 05:07 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I do not mean to 'emote' more than I discuss action.

For example, I can decide that I will separate from my bedroom and stay in another room while she chooses to remain not following that EP or POJA and working 7 miles from the OMs house.

I will live this way until my son graduates high school, and then separate permanently.

I could choose that course of action, then at least I'd be doing something and not emoting about it any longer.

I went back and skimmed through these posts because honestly I am very confused about your posting. I thought the whole point of your email to Dr Harley was that you wanted to wait two years to D. This was your plan to posters who were encouraging you to move.

Now that you got Dr Harley's support on that, you quietly changed your position to one of working on MB again when you have already told us that your W has outright rejected MB, calling it a cult, scoffing at Dr Harley, and is gaslighting you and calling you crazy and paranoid....by giving us some crazy EP plan your W came up with. Huh??

Can you please explain what is going on here?

I don't think you are being fair to posters or to Dr Harley.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/24/14 11:56 PM
I should not have posted our conversation.

I was frazzled when I did, and that dialogue was between us, in the middle of an emotional disagreement.

Many posters (Markos/Prisca, Melody) seemed to insinuate that if I was choosing not to Plan B/divorce then I should 'make the best use of my time' and persuade her to get involved with the coaching program with me.

That was the position suggested to me.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/25/14 12:10 AM
Here's your follow up show.
Radio Clip of helpfordad's follow-up question
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/25/14 12:14 AM
BH,

Already listened, and read follow-up note from Dr. Harley himself.

Thank you.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/25/14 12:35 AM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
BH,

Already listened, and read follow-up note from Dr. Harley himself.

Thank you.
Yes, I know. I post it, also, for others who are following your thread.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/25/14 12:38 AM
My apologies.

I thought you thought I hadn't heard it, and I didn't want to burden you with more than you already do here for everyone.

Thank you.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/25/14 01:22 AM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
My apologies.

I thought you thought I hadn't heard it, and I didn't want to burden you with more than you already do here for everyone.

Thank you.
No apology needed and you're welcome,
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/25/14 04:49 AM
HFD,

Melody is 100%! You now have Dr. Harley's Personal advice to You (which is what I felt you needed in the first place). You retort that by bringing up your contingencies in regard to the EP of not working near the OM if your W accepts the job. That is ludicrous after being advised to go to Plan B if she accepts the job!! In his post, Dr. Harley did mention that part of your problem may be that you are doing things to drive your W away, and I do think that is the case. In your last several posts you have primarily commented Like: "I did the work", "I shouldn't have blasted", and other comments that indicate to me that you two (especially you) have not reconciled with each other over your W's affair, and that you have a tremendous amount of resentment still. But, for you to engage your resentment by trying to justify the 'poor hfd' at the expense of members And Dr. Harley for the sake of YOUR lack of effort In trying to save your own marriage is putrid.


Tom
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/25/14 12:55 PM
My options as outlined by Markos, melody, and Dr. Harley seem to be:

*Plan B
*divorce
*limbo (while completing online coaching)

In the end, I understand it is my decision, and I am trying to do my best.

I apologize if you feel I am insulting any of you, or come across as a putrid person while I'm struggling my way through the process.

Thank you.
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/26/14 01:07 AM
HFD,

I need to apologize to you on the forum here. I wanted to make a point that maybe your indecision in regard to enrolling in a Plan A or a Plan B, and when you mentioned that contingent provisions could cover if your W accepted that job seemed to go against MB and Dr. Harley's advice to you. So, I became frustrated and went too far. You seem like a decent guy who is struggling against a difficult situation. You're right tho, it is your decision and I hope all of this exercise will help you make the right one for you and your M and your family. My use of the word 'putrid' was only aimed at the state of your M, but that term was inappropriate. It is a troubled M.

I will say some prayers for you over the next few weeks that you reflect and do make the right decision, and also that your W will be willing to at least meet you half-way.

Tom
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/26/14 01:24 AM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I

That was the position suggested to me.

What position did Dr Harley suggest to you?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/26/14 01:25 AM
Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
"But regardless of the reason, her actions clearly show her unwillingness to make her marriage with you work for both of you. In your case, I would suggest that you follow plan B if she actually takes the job, and possibly even a divorce later on (but I don't want those on the forum to advise a divorce). You have every right to do either. It's your decision."
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/26/14 02:35 AM
Dr. Harley did state in his radio response that he felt it was a bad decision for her to take this job, that it does not show care for me or protection for the marriage, and that it feels that her career is more important to me.

And that if I chose to stay for the sake of our son, that was my choice, that my idea about staying around for 2 years and then divorcing her is fine, but I need to be transparent about that decision.

Several people have suggested that if that is my choice, then I should pursue the online coaching program, and that her involvement in that would be beneficial as well.

To not 'excuse' her breaking EPs or POJA, but that if I was not choosing to Plan B/divorce at this time, to use this time wisely enrolling in the online coaching.

I am not choosing to Plan B/divorce at this time, so I must be aware of the possible consequences of "allowing" her to work there, and fully understand that attempting to post here for direction or guidance will be a moot point unless/until we move, hfm decides to leave that location, or I choose Plan B/divorce.

Thank you, all.

Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/26/14 02:40 AM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
&#8730;
Several people have suggested that if that is my choice, then I should pursue the online coaching program, and that her involvement in that would be beneficial as well.


I made that suggestion BEFORE Dr Harley told you to go into Plan B. So I withdraw my suggestion. So please don't include me in that "several people." And of course, it would be a waste of time to do the online program because you already know your wife won't participate.

Of course it is your "choice " to ignore what Dr Harley suggested. No one suggested otherwise. It is always your "choice" to continue to do absolutely nothing.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/26/14 02:52 AM
I withdraw all previous suggestions, anything by anyone. My apologies.

I was confused at first because Dr. Harley said one thing in his radio response (staying together for son okay, disagree with forum posters encouraging divorce), and another in his note to me (Plan B immediatley, divorce later).

The most recent choices laid out to me, then, are Plan B now, with the possibility of divorce later. Staying until son graduates and then divorce has been rejected now as an option.

I choose not to Plan B or divorce at this time. Doing the online program alone wouldn't do me much good, I suppose, if hfm chooses not to participate. I will cease trying to persuade her to join me and I will cancel the online coaching program.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/26/14 02:56 AM
Tom,

No need to apologize to me. It seems I owe an apology to everyone here, since they seem so frustrated and angry at me.

Thank you for recognizing that I'm just an average Joe, a decent guy, who is struggling mightily in a difficult situation.

Your heart is in the right place, and I appreciate it.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/26/14 02:57 AM
When does she start the new job?
Posted By: MelodyLane Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/26/14 03:00 AM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
II was confused at first because Dr. Harley said one thing in his radio response (staying together for son okay, disagree with forum posters encouraging divorce), and another in his note to me (Plan B immediatley, divorce later).

Dr Harley did not disagree with the idea of divorce; he disagreed that posters should TELL YOU to divorce. THAT should be your decision.

But your decision has been to kick the can down the road and just avoid conflict. I don't believe for one second you will divorce her in 2 years or 10 years.
Posted By: Justthe3ofus Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/26/14 03:04 AM
Plan Roommate. Conjures memories of Carly Simon's song "That's The Way I Always Heard it Should be."

I'm sad for you tonight.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/26/14 03:04 AM
BH,

Monday.



Melody,

I relistened/reread and gained clarity on that.

I understand what you believe/don't believe about me and my marriage, and appreciate that you respect that it is my choice, even if you feel I'm making one you don't agree with.

Posted By: armymama Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/26/14 03:05 AM
Originally Posted by Justthe3ofus
Plan Roommate. Conjures memories of Carly Simon's song "That's The Way I Always Heard it Should be."

I'm sad for you tonight.

Me too.
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/26/14 03:06 AM
That makes 3 of us.

I'm sorry I've disappointed all of you.

Please have a good night and a Happy Rosh Hashanah.
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/26/14 03:17 AM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
BH
Monday
Are you currently on ADs? If not, you're going to need them when she starts work Monday.
Posted By: indiegirl Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/26/14 07:52 AM
Help,

It is your decision of course. I'm just a bit curious about what that decision actually is?

If I understand right; you've said you are staying for your son, which is laudable, but puzzling. What is your son gaining from your staying married in this particular situation? What's the goal here?

I cannot even imagine putting myself through the pain of a false recovery voluntarily; so you must have some high goal for such high sacrifice.

Whatever your goal is, I will be thinking of you on Monday.

Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/26/14 11:15 AM
Indie,

Markos/Prisca: leave her, or win her over to MB

Melody/Dr. Harley: Plan B or Divorce


I suppose my plan is "monitor and adjust".


Thank you.
Posted By: SusieQ Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/26/14 11:50 AM
Originally Posted by SusieQ
Originally Posted by helpfordad
"I am not taking part in a cult any more that tells me I'm weak and all situations are dealt with the same."

Originally Posted by helpfordad
HFM:

"HFD, only this cult would tell you that job is dangerous to us, even though it's been over 4 years. I focus on you and the kids, but you focus on him. He might be married for all I know. You need help. I think you are truly crazy and I am becoming scared of telling you the truth. You talk about him so much with this job you should date him."

Very nice...

Originally Posted by helpfordad
I have to sign off for a little while, but I'll end with this:

"HFD, I don't care about Dr. H so don't bring him into our marriage...I'm not interested in what he has to say. I'm sorry you feel I don't care about you, however you will not dictate where I can work because of an event 4 years ago. You need to focus on now. I resent you..."

Has she changed her position? My sense from reading these quotes and from what Dr Harley had to say is that she will not want anything to do with MB if it does not support her IB.

Originally Posted by helpfordad
I should not have posted our conversation.

I was frazzled when I did, and that dialogue was between us, in the middle of an emotional disagreement.

What are you saying?

That she has retracted these statements and is "on board" with MB? Doesn't think we are a cult anymore and not scoffing at Dr Harley's advice for your M anymore?

Posted By: SusieQ Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/26/14 12:02 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
Indie,

Markos/Prisca: leave her, or win her over to MB

Melody/Dr. Harley: Plan B or Divorce


I suppose my plan is "monitor and adjust".


Thank you.

I think everyone here will recommend you follow what Dr Harley said. He's the expert after all and IMO you are pulling things out of context that posters said from before he gave you his advice.

Besides....saying, well, it's either win her or Plan B/D is short sighted.

The whole point of Dr Harley's post to you is the same quoted paragraph I gave you from the AA meeting wife. A F?WS that tramples on your feelings and rejects POJA is going to either have an affair or do something else make your life miserable (as you are seeing now).

If you want to ignore Dr Harley's advice, of course, that is your decision. But just remember YOU are signing up for this. I hate some of your wishy-washy posting making it seem your W is still working MB with you, because that's NOT the case and denial isn't going to help you make good decisions.

Dr Harley is basically telling you that you are staying married to someone who is going to disregard your feelings over and over again. So the next time you are feeling frustrated because your W did this that or another thing...just remember YOU are the one who has accepted this way of life. That's on you, not even on your W anymore.

Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/26/14 12:43 PM
If on Monday she says she won't participate in the online coaching, then on Wednesday she says she will, then it's not me being wishy-washy.

I know she wants to stay married, I know she doesn't want me to divorce her. And I know that if I say to you that she said she'll "do anything" to protect the marriage and not have me leave, that she cries, that she feels angst about the job as well, that unless "do anything" results in leaving that job, you will classify it as just words from a FWS.

I understand that due to my choice, I am accepting the consequences of NOT doing Plan B or NOT doing Divorce and, consequently, the MB program seems futile in my case, and it's obvious I am and will continue to be a waste of time and energy for those who post here.

Anyway, if or when I decide to "follow" the MB program by deciding to complete the online coaching, or Plan B, or Divorce, or hfm leaves that job at that location, or hfm has another affair and I come back for help and "we told ya so's", then at that point I'll take time to touch base with an update or a cry of despair.

Until then, I do thank you for all of your guidance. I appreciate that all of you have good intentions and are motivated by the opportunity to build strong marriages.

Please be well.
Posted By: Northwood8900 Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/26/14 01:26 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
I understand that due to my choice, I am accepting the consequences of NOT doing Plan B or NOT doing Divorce and, consequently, the MB program seems futile in my case, and it's obvious I am and will continue to be a waste of time and energy for those who post here.

It's not a waste of time, guy.

You haven't hit rock bottom yet, that's all.

When you do, you'll realize that you should have a say in how your marriage is run and that leaving it all up to the whims of your wife isn't helping you. You'll hit the red before too long, there's no way that your $LB can survive with these triggers.

And it sure as hell isn't helping the child at home, because he's watching what y'all do and is going to model that in his own relationships.

Your wife's behavior irritates me, much like the waywards of stretch, AndyM and Reynolds did. I wish that it would bother you just as much, so that you'd take a very active role in saying "enough of this crap" and not settle for Plan Doormat.

Women do not respect those that let them walk all over them. Just saying!

Posted By: indiegirl Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/26/14 04:38 PM
Originally Posted by helpfordad
If on Monday she says she won't participate in the online coaching, then on Wednesday she says she will, then it's not me being wishy-washy.

I know she wants to stay married, I know she doesn't want me to divorce her. And I know that if I say to you that she said she'll "do anything" to protect the marriage and not have me leave, that she cries, that she feels angst about the job as well, that unless "do anything" results in leaving that job, you will classify it as just words from a FWS.

I understand that due to my choice, I am accepting the consequences of NOT doing Plan B or NOT doing Divorce and, consequently, the MB program seems futile in my case, and it's obvious I am and will continue to be a waste of time and energy for those who post here.

Anyway, if or when I decide to "follow" the MB program by deciding to complete the online coaching, or Plan B, or Divorce, or hfm leaves that job at that location, or hfm has another affair and I come back for help and "we told ya so's", then at that point I'll take time to touch base with an update or a cry of despair.

Until then, I do thank you for all of your guidance. I appreciate that all of you have good intentions and are motivated by the opportunity to build strong marriages.

Please be well.


I think I see what you mean by 'monitor and adjust'. You are seeing more than one side to her. There is an apparent remorseful side too; even if it is not half strong enough or nearly good enough. Its hard for you to walk away when there seems to be hope.

Everyone is saying don't get sucked into that: into not good enough. But I think I see from your words that you are not dismissing the options forever.

I think the time is not too far away when you may need these options more than you need hope.

Posted By: zibbles Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/27/14 12:05 AM
You realize she's now saying she'll do the coaching because she got what she wants (the job) and she's throwing you a bone? She squeezes out some tears just to make you feel like she sort of cares about how you feel? But she still got her way and you capitulated.

I know you've worked hard but all this time, you've been so anxious to keep the marriage together, you've let her run roughshod all over you.

This is going to eat you alive.
Posted By: Prisca Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/27/14 10:10 PM
Quote
If on Monday she says she won't participate in the online coaching, then on Wednesday she says she will, then it's not me being wishy-washy.
If on Thursday you did not sign up for the online coaching, then yes, you are wishy washy.
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/28/14 02:31 AM
***EDIT***
Posted By: Tom2010 Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/28/14 03:02 AM
HFD,

I think you are signing out of here because your pride has been hurt. You have had brow beatings from Melody and Suzie and others, and Jedi has nailed you for good reason. I think that the main problem you are facing is your decision not to move and allowing for the possibility of you w encountering her OM again.

Bottom line is that I hope you decide to return here and discuss further.

Take care and you will have my prayers,

Tom

Posted By: Toujours Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 09/30/14 08:48 PM
If you have a problem with a post, notify the moderators. Do not disrupt a thread by trying to moderate other posters. Leave the moderating to the moderators.
Posted By: Northwood8900 Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 10/28/14 01:23 PM
How are things?
Posted By: helpfordad Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 12/31/14 02:35 PM
Just a note to wish all of you a Happy New Year, and best wishes for a healthy and loving 2015!
Posted By: BrainHurts Re: POJA/Brainstorm/Negotiate - 01/01/15 05:10 AM
How are things?

And happynewyr
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