Sadly, I find myself here seeking comfort and advice. I have been married for 11 yrs, we have 3 children ages 9, 7 and 10 months. My husband has an affair that in theory is over. I have come to the realization of everything that lead to the affair, our marriage was already in trouble. Husband meets this woman through some friends. They friend each other on FB. I go visit my family over the summer, she offers to help him clean the house to get it ready for our arrival as I am 7 months pregnant at the time. Well, she actually picked us up from the airport, offered to watch our kids so we could go on a Date for our 10th anniversary, befriends me, becomes extremely helpful. Her kids and mine become friends, they (her kids and her) start spending the night with us. I felt she and my husband were talking/texting too much, so I put spyware on my husband's phone catch some very sexual txts between them, confront them and they both swear it was just silly bantering. I am over reacting, it's the pregnancy hormones, you know just making me look crazy. I tell them they are not to communicate with each other unless it is through me, they both agree.

Months go by, I deliver our 3rd baby, she is there to take photos and just be a good friend. That is when I let my guard off. I was busy with a new baby, tired, sleepless, etc. they start txting again. I didn't really pay much attention. FF to this summer. Kids and I go on our usual trip to visit family, while I am there, I get the cold bucket, She confessed the affair to her husband. He makes her cut ties with my whole family, we exchange some txts, etc. They swear this time it is really over, they didn't mean to hurt anyone, it just happened, they are so much alike, they are "in love" but that they were never going to contact each other again because nothing good could come from the destruction of both families. I reiterated to both that my children and I would move with my family if the affair continued. (in another country, to which I was told I was using the kids as leverage and weapons, but the reality is we would not make it on our own here, with no emotional and enough financial support)

FF to a week ago, I discovered that my husband had a "hidden phone", obviously to communicate and txt with her. I lose my cool, wake up my kids in the middle of the night and tell them we are leaving because daddy has chosen to be with someone else and does not love any of us any more (I know terrible move but I was livid, hurt and couldn't think straight). He begs me to not take the kids but I tell him, he should have thought of that before he continued with the affair. Next day, I decide to send messages to her husband (who had my blocked on FB, so a friend of mine sent the msg), her parents and her aunt. Her aunt answers with a very nasty msg and sure enough after having me blocked from fb and her phone, I start receiving msgs from her how I was worse than her and my husband for hurting innocent people by spewing my venom by telling them about the affair. They continue to txt, now through my WH's regular cell line (as I confiscated the phone). My friend msgs her husband, he unblocks me, I show my evidence that they are still contacting each other after she promised him ties were cut. Next morning, I get a txt from her saying my words were so hurtful because all the truth they carried, that she didn't do any of this on purpose to hurt anyone that she loved me and my kids and that she would back off and tell her husband about her heart being compromised by loving another man but that they knew nothing good could come of their relationship, built on the destruction of our families.

My WH, says he is in love with her and that he simply doesn't want to lose his kids by me taking them away. He sees it as a punishment but I have explained to him that I cannot be the mother our kids deserve, if he leaves me high and dry. I have no Emotional support here and I am a SAHM, so financially I depend on him, he says he will pay for everything but as is we can't afford it much less with 2 households and I know eventually he will get tired of paying all the bills over here and then my baby will have to go to daycare while I work, my older kids will have to give up their after school activities and there will be issues when they get sick, school days off, breaks, etc. With my family, I know who would care for them while I work, pick them up if they get sick at school, take them to a doctor, watch them when not in school and they would help me get on my feet.

I told him the choices are out there. Either, we work it out as a couple/family; or, he leaves us and puts all of us in a bad situation as we would not be able to afford to stay in our home and I was sure he would probably support us fully the first few months but then would stop wanting to give me all his paychecks to keep the kids's lifestyle the same way it has been til now. He knows communicating with her will cause a tragedy as her husband threaten to kill mine and from what I've heard, he would do it. So I reminded him, she was no longer an option or he was not putting his children's best interest first; third choice was he let me and the kids go with my family, he can go visit them and I can bring them during their summer break. That the least selfish choice was working it out but if that was impossible then letting us go was best for the kids and myself.

He refuses counseling. He says that he knows that they will just say what he doesn't want to hear. I asked how long did I have to live in limbo and he said he didn't know what he wanted to do. I told him he has til the end of this month to decide if he wants to work it out, if he does not have an answer by then, the kids and I will start getting ready to move.

I know he is in the withdrawal stage. I just don't know how much more I can take.

Susie, I am so sorry you are in this dilemma. The first thing I would do is expose his affair. I would even consider posting the OW on cheaterville. Go to the link in my signature for exposure tactics. It should be exposed wide and far immediately.

The second thing I would do is demand he end his affair TODAY. If he won't end his affair and PROVE it has ended I would ask him to leave. You can't drag this out any longer and "give him time." You need relief NOW.

I would also stay in communication with the OW's husband and tell him everything you know. It sounds like the OW has told him lies about you.

I just wanted to let you know that there are many of us here who have been through this double betrayal with a WS and an alleged friend.

I also want you to know that there is hope to recover your marriage.


You will have to live in limbo for only as long as you will allow it. Your WH wants BOTH of you and is not ready to give up either one yet because he is hoping that you are not serious about leaving and is trying to convince you to stay.

Your husband needs to see that you are SERIOUS about how you will be treated. I know you may think that demanding that he end his affair with this skank will only push them closer together...but it is not the case...because remember that he wants BOTH of you including his children.


Affairs are fantasy. Consequences and the light of day are strong weapons in killing the delusion that they are living under.

Ignore anyone who says that you are mean and spiteful for telling the truth. It is the affair that is mean and devastating for your family...not your telling the truth.

I have exposed her, that is what first pissed her off and then she came to realize I had not said anything she didn't know to be true. She has told the husband. I believe she is trying to move on. The affair is pretty much over at the moment. I only exposed my husband to my brother, as he does not have a relationship with his mother and rarely speak to his father. I was going to tell his sister but not even sure if it is worth it at this point. He doesn't really have any close friends. Should I still tell the people he knows? FB friends? He said he knew she is no longer an option but he cannot get past my transgression of telling my kids he didn't love any of us. That he wonders what other horrible things I've said to them about him. Now, in my defense, my 9 yr old had already asked me why his dad was so hateful to me, why he was always angry and why he never had time for us. He straight out asked if his dad loved us before all this went down. The other thing is, my children loved this woman as you love an aunt, her kids were their friends and as weird as it sounds she was my friend, too. It is almost like she is 2 different people. For the first time in a while he called me "hunny" again, he greeted me with a kiss when he got home and he said "I love you" but then later the same night tells me he just doesn't want to lose his kids, meaning, he doesn't care losing me. I mean is my husband even going through withdrawal or is he plain done with me?

Susie,
You should read Exposure 101 in MelodyLane signature above and follow those instructions.
proper exposure usually kills most affairs however it's also where most betrayed spouses fail to carry through.
The Exposure 101 thread gives you instructions on how to do this.

Start preparing to move now. Don't wait until the end of the month as WH flops around and stresses you out more. You would move out of the country? I assume your children already have passports since your recently traveled to visit your family? So long as no divorce papers have been filed/served you should be able to travel anywhere you want with the kids but you may want to double ck. Int'l travel may have a different standard than domestic.

Welcome to MB. Sorry for your hurt.

Also, I would post OW on www.cheaterville.com.
Post the facts and ideally some sort of proof on the site too.

Yes tell the father, sister and any close friends who can support you.


x 100

YOU need to talk to her BH, do not believe for a second he has accurate information if he has received it from the OW. The one thing you know about her, is that she is a liar. He deserves to know the truth, not some twisted version from affairland.

What does this mean? There is no such thing as 'pretty much over.' It is either over, meaning that they have NO CONTACT this includes even keeping tabs on each other through social media, or there is contact in which case the affair is ON.

She has told the husband LIES, so if you have not told the husband everything and offered to stay in touch with him, then you have not covered your bases with him.


It is not over.

\
Tell his family members and ask them to speak to him. Even tho there might not be a strong relationship, they do have influence over him.


"Your transgressions??" That takes some AMAZING NERVE after what he has done to you and your kids. TEll him he was not demonstrating "love" to his kids when he was jeopardizing their FABRIC OF THEIR LIVES with his filthy affair with a hoe.


The FOX says nice things to get into the hen house. The OW is your enemy and was all along. She is a beast who caused great harm to you and your children.

It is very important that you expose this affair PROPERLY. Especially to the OW's husband. It is vitally important that he has all the information and knows everything. Her family and close friends on facebook should be informed. I would also expose that skank on cheaterville.com

I guess I was not clear enough. I have spoken to the BH, I keep in contact with him. There has been no contact as far as I can tell since last week. They are blocked from each others fb. The reason I say it is pretty much over and not over is that they have gone the no contact way once before and after 2 weeks my WH bought a phone and contacted her, she didn't refuse his call. So to me, even if there is no contact, I can't be sure if there will ever be. I'd ask the BH to ask her to change her number but I am not sure he will make her change it. I would change my husband's but that serves no purpose as he is the one who contacted her first with a different number.

her family was informed, I exposed her before I read anything here, now on my husband's side I did not expose, is it still a good time to do so?

I hope you realize what a predator this woman is, and do not harbor any guilt or sadness in terminating this 'friendship.' She is no friend and never was, to you or your family. She is a predator who operated like a scam artist, building up trust just to rob you blind.

I just think her husband is in denial though. According to him, the texts all pointed out to her trying to solve MY marital issues, not to having an affair. He is the one that said his WW was just trying to help my WH fix his marriage. In her message to her husband she was clear though, she wanted him to be fully aware of her feelings before he made a decision to forgive her as she wanted him to be clear her "heart was compromised by loving another man". He wants to believe it was one sided affair but she says otherwise, he is in denial. As far as I am concerned, they were both into having this affair. I know, I should not harbor any sadness (guilt I don't feel) over the ending of this so called friendship but it is hard not to, I mean I can't find words to explain it. She must really be like a drug that causes bad addiction. I told her exactly what you said. That she built my trust just to rob me. I will never allow anyone into my life the way I did her. She rob so much more than just my marriage. I can only hope my husband can recover from such an addiction and do right by us.

How far away does this hoe live and work from you all? Is it likely you and your h will be crossing paths?

You need a lot more than hope, susie. You need a plan..and not Plan Hope. Can you finish the exposure today? You need to get that part done ASAP.

My W is from Brazil. In order for her to be permitted (by the Brazillian government) to take my 4 year old for a visit it Brazil, I had to sign a paper at the Brazillian consulate.
That document expires in 2 years.

In my country they do not require anything. I know because I go every year. Now to keep them there, I would need his permission, in theory but in reality only if he chooses to make a stink.

She lives about 40 miles away. We will probably not cross paths, not by chance, I have nothing to do in her town and she rarely comes to my city.


I will try to finish that after my kids are in bed but this promises to be a long night, with my oldest and his school work he missed for being sick.

susie,

You need to stay focused and do one thing at a time.
Right now, you need to expose this affair properly.
Read the Exposure 101 thread in Melody Lane signature and follow the instructions there.
I also encourage you to place the OW on www.cheaterville.com ideally with some type of evidence.

I wrote a letter to FIL, I will mail it in the morning. I will tell my sil also in the morning. I have sent fb messages to all the friends he ever talks about but not the entire fb friends list. Or should I send to every single person on his friend's list?

I would send it to all of his friends.
The idea is that one of them with influence may contact him and encourage him to permanently end the affair and work on recovery.

Now, are you using the letter template in Exposure 101?

For fb yes, for my FIL, I just wrote letter. I told him how the affair has affected his grandkids.

I have a doubt, when is an affair considered over? I mean it takes 2 to tango, so if one of them has sent a letter saying it's over don't contact me again, is it considered over or only when your spouse sends such a letter? The thing is if she is not persuing my husband in any way and he technically is not contacting her in any form but still moping and sulking about being in love with her, is it considered an ended affair or a dying affair that could be resparked?

It is not ended.

Not until he recommits to you on bended knee with hat in hand (and there continues to be zero contact with OW ).

There needs to be zero contact. I recommd. Setting up vars to keep an ear on him. (Just for your own peace of mind)

Have you been tested for STDs?

Last test was back at the end of October before my baby was born. Now they both say they only got physical twice, once last summer and once this summer

Re: How to survive? [Re: susiew]



susie. You are living in a house and town full of triggers with a WH who refuses to commit to the marriage. Not to mention the fact that none of the opportunities that made the affair possible have been shut down. You cannot rebuild or recover a marriage like this.

You are signing up for a death of a thousand cuts.


If you were my own daughter, I would tell her to expose the affair and then pack up and move out leaving only a Plan B letter behind. You have been in Plan A for way to long and your health is going to start to suffer.


I do not for one second believe that this affair is over or dying. I can say that having been in the exact same situation as you. You sound like a smart woman...do you really believe it is over and that you can recover your marriage while staying in affair land?

I have exposed the affair via fb to my WH's friends. I know 3 have seen it and read it but only 1 has replied. The person that replied was highly upset about my husband's affair and will express their disapproval and encourage him to end the affair.

While I would gladly leave, I just cannot do so. I do not have the financial means to do so right now and I have no where to go as my family is in another country. I will not take my kids to a homeless shelter. I will make this transition, the least traumatic possible for my children and that might mean remaining here until next summer, when my children and I would take our usual trip to see my family and remain there but in the meantime I can work on all the legalities of moving them to another country.That way if there is any chance this marriage survives, I won't have disrupted their education (as they would not be able to return to their current schools). If my marriage goes down the drain, then they can start fresh a new school year in my country.

Contact has ended (so far, I am 100% positive, no hidden phone as I have every single penny accounted for). My WH is coming home at an appropriate time considering his work schedule and travel time. He has worked a few hours over time but not without calling me to let me know. I have a tracker on his phone, so I know where he is. Whether or not he is done, I don't know. I don't understand when this "withdrawal" period starts and what it looks like. I thought the "I am in love with her", "our relationship was broken already" and all those phrases were part of it.

Maybe, I am just blind and grasping on straws here.

Did you post the OW on www.cheaterville.com?
Strong exposure is essential to killing an affair

Susie, you have done a great job thus far! Now the real work begins. I would go to him with a PLAN to save your marriage. He can either agree or he can move out. If he moves out he will be legally obliged to continue to support you.

As long as the affair is over, you can lead your marriage out of the ditch if you follow this program. If you don't follow this program your marriage won't make it and you will end up divorced.

Do you have the book Surviving an Affair? If not, you should get it asap and start working that program with your husband.

Here is the checklist:

From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.

These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.


Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.

I have not posted her on cheaterville. It would only be fair if I posted both her and my WH as they BOTH are cheaters.

I requested it from the library.I will read your other post when my kids are in bed. Thanks!

Susie, you need to OWN that book becsaue you will need to read it over and over and take notes in it. If you can't pay for it, I would email Dr Harley at the radio show asking him for advice for your situation. If you include your address they will send you a free book.

Susiew,

You may want to get a polygraph for your WH, two times they were intimate, sorry that does not add up. Then share the real story with the OWH.

I hope your children no longer have contact with OW children and they know what OW did to their family.

God Bless
Gamma

Ok, I emailed Dr. Harley. I will still get the book from the library to start reading it, if Dr. Harley sends me a complementary copy, great. If not I will buy one as soon as I have the funds.

On a positive note, after an awful beginning of the evening, I was able to talk to him with no arguments and he agreed to have a "date" Friday night. This is a huge improvement. He said that he does love me, he just didn't want or think he could go back were we came from. And I told him we never had to go back there, we could go to a much better place together as a couple and a family, if he so desired.

I am thinking at least one of his friends contacted him about it. I won't know until tomorrow as I would have to turn on my desktop to log in to his fb (which I have access to).

Ok now for some advice on my date night. I suggested we did something simple and free like go walk by the river just so we could be alone, just the 2 of us with no children or social media interfering. Just pay $20 bucks to my teenage neighbor to babysit the kids. Should I bring printed copies of the emotional needs questionnaire? or should I wait on those? Should I try to get him to tell me more about the affair? Should I talk about my expectations and ask him about his? I feel like a freaking teenager who's crush finally invited her to go out on a date!

No, you are battling an affair and it is not your role to be "fair."
There is a proverb as old as the world: "All is far in love and war."
There are no rules in war and you are in a battle to save your marriage.

Post the woman on Cheaterville and expose her for the whole community

Gamma, I know it sounds suspicious and off course they could be lying but with the timeline, it does kind of sound about correct. This affair is mostly emotional, it had a lot of sexting but I also found some txt about guilt and shame. I think at this point the exact number of times they were intimate is not going to change anything. One or a thousand is all the same, wrong and hurtful and dangerous. I was tested for STD's before I delivered my son 10 months ago. I will get tested again just in case.

None of the children have contact any longer. It pains me to see my kids missing their friends. And from the OPH, his kids constantly ask about my children. He says you can see the pain in his WW when the kids ask about me and my children. Either way, she could have avoided this heart ache for her children if she had not pursuit this affair. Kids are resilient, they will all be fine in time. Mine are aware, while they miss their friends and this woman, they want nothing to do with her. Hers are in the dark and will probably never know why their best friends simply vanished.

Tonight, I go to bed with a little bit of hope that with lots of sacrifice and following MB, I can work on saving my marriage.

I would not discuss the affair or recovery on your dates. The dates should be light and pleasant.

But did you read my post about recovery? You really have to launch a recovery plan or your marriage won't make it. I would sit him down tomorrow night and go over the plan for recovery. That needs to start asap.

I believe I did read it but things are so blurry in my head right now. I will need to re read it, probably many times over. I will try to sit him down tomorrow. The way he has always been is he shuts down, under pressure, so I don't want to seem to be putting too much pressure too soon.

I would sit him down and review the plan of recovery with him. It is not negotiable. Having no plan is a plan to fail. The checklist is the first step in affair proofing your marriage and the Basic Concepts is your plan to create a new marriage. If he shuts down, then your marriage is shut down!

Susiew,

You wrote, I think at this point the exact number of times they were intimate is not going to change anything. One or a thousand is all the same, wrong and hurtful and dangerous. I was tested for STD's before I delivered my son 10 months ago. I will get tested again just in case.

The important detail however is that if it was 1000 times your WH is still lying to you, and your WH is still sharing a secret with OW which is an intimacy you are excluded from. A secret second life is impossible if your WH is honest and transparent.

I would suggest you send the contact info. for a polygraph expert to the OWH too.

The STD thing should be done sooner than later, HPV has become a significant cause of various cancers, and since you do not know how promiscuous OW was, you have no idea how much at risk you are.

http://www.cdc.gov/cancer/hpv/

God Bless
Gamma

You are right, I will address all of this with him, hopefully tonight. The OWH wants no more contact from me, unless, I find that my WH and his WW have been in contact again. I have made an appt to test for std's.

Joyce asked me to be a caller. Makes me nervous, but it is a great opportunity to get direct advice from them.

When will you be a caller?

Not sure, I will call her in the am and they will tell me then, I guess.

Ok, is any reaction other than the WH being pissed that you exposed the affair, normal? My husband has been contacted by 2 people about the affair. My FIL called him (I had left him a vm asking him to call me but he called his son first, FIL was not aware of the affair because I mailed the letter today, so he has not received it.) So I have no idea if my husband told him or not. As a matter of fact, my husband never told me he spoke with his dad today. WH has not reacted in anger for the exposure (he might have seen it coming as I did expose the OW to her family and he knew it). Honestly, we had no time to sit and speak tonight as the kids were impossible to settle. He has not been "lovey" but not plain hateful as he has been lately. He still agreed to go out on our "date" tomorrow night.

Usually the wayward is furious about exposure.
So I hope you have exposed it "far and wide"

Well, I contacted everyone on his fb. Mailed his dad, even though I tried to call him but fil called wh instead.

So should I be worried about his non furious reaction?

No, as a general rule you should not "worry" about anything a fogged out wayward does.
It's a waste of time to try to figure out their thinking process

I just read through your thread.
You said that you exposed the affair fully and the list below is what you really need to focus on at this point:

Thanks Jedi_Knight. I will work on those.

Susiew,

You wrote, Well, I contacted everyone on his fb. Mailed his dad, even though I tried to call him but fil called wh instead.

Don't recall but did you hit everyone on OWs facebook as well, you need to enforce that any fantasy OW has of ever getting back together as friends is dead.

God Bless
Gamma

I can't see her contacts on FB, she has blocked me. Some of my wh's friends are also her friends, so there is not much I can do. Her husband has not blocked me but I cannot see his friends' list either.

Either way, I don't think I want to even try to save this marriage anymore. Even though they have not had any contact since last Thursday, I am done with being treated with disrespect. We were supposed to go out tonight, he turned off his phone and did not come home til 9pm.

Susie,
It's time to grow up. You seem to operate on wishes and hopes. Well, if wishes were fishes the ocean would be full.

Melody said that if you fail to plan, then you plan to fail. And that is truth. You cannot operate from the "hope" that he will stop seeing this other woman. And you can't expect him to have a light date with him after you exposed his cheating @$$ far and wide. (It's good that you did, by the way.)

You must demand that your husband follow extraordinary precautions (EP's) on the list Melody and Jedi gave you. Recovering from an affair is serious business, and if you don't get serious about it and your husband doesn't serious about it, you are in for a lot of misery.

Hold him accountable to the EP's and make that the first order of business. If you don't, the message he will get is, "I can do this again. My wife isn't serious about holding me accountable." Don't let that happen, Susie. Be strong and assertive or you will get walked on again. Can't you see the pattern?

He doesn't want to make any effort. I've been trying to get him to agree to even work on the marriage and he says yes, then no. He needs to grow up and I am done. He says it is not even about the affair, her just doesn't love me romantically anymore and hasn't for years. I cannot live like this. It is affecting me and the kids. I told him to leave.

Susie,

Did you kick him out of the house?

Basically, yes... He just left. I told him he needed to either commit to "trying" to save our marriage or leave. He chose to leave. I guess it is over.

Susie,
I dont think this affair is over.
You should post the OW on www.cheaterville.com
Tell your story and if possible post a couple of the sexting messages on there as proof.

He may return tonight or tomorrow.
Don't expect your marriage is over because he is choosing his affair partner over you at this point.
Post her on Cheaterville for good public exposure.
And immediately prepare for "Plan B."

Are you familiar with Plan B?

I don't have any of those messages anymore, the computer I used to get a hold of those broke.

I don't know if it is over or not but I am done fighting. I have no prove that it is still on going. He committed adultery, so hopefully I can get full custody and permission to relocate with my children.

I read plan B. I don't even care anymore. I am so numb. He can stay with her if he so wishes. Yes, my kids lose their dad but they will gain a whole lot of support from my brother, dad and uncle in addition of my aunts. Kids are resilient, they will be fine. I made him give me his whole paycheck of this week before he left. He has like $50 in an acct and that is it.

Then post her on Cheaterville without the text messages but get her posted.
You need to stay focused on this.

You need to be familiar with Plan B and prepare for it for your own mental health.
Plan B is not a plan to win him back. It is a plan designed to protect YOU

Well, I have no idea where he will be living but he has to support this household in it's entirety since I am a SAHM. I know he won't be able to, that will probably help me out with relocation.

I need to find an IM... thought his sister but then read that in laws are not a good idea. I also need to write the letter but I am not feeling it right now.

Just focus on posting on Cheaterville for now and then take some time for yourself

I really don't understand the point of doing this. He doesn't want me in his life period. What good will exposing her on cheaterville do? most of his friends have replied with oh so sorry, very disappointing but only one has told him how stupid breaking up our family is and the others have simply said they don't know the whole situation so all they can do is send thoughts and prayers for all of the involved.

Susie,
Public shame causes chaos in the affair.
Right now he is in the fog, like a drug addict on drugs.
An addict only cares about their addiction.
But when the drug is taken away, they think more clearly.
That is the purpose of exposure.
You really need to stay focused and stop worrying about what he says or does.

Ok, so I post her on cheaterville, I am sure as soon as she sees her post my phone will start blowing up. She will probably call him demanding I take her off the page. If they had had no contact since D-Day, won't that be counter productive?

Are you advising me I should keep fighting regardless of whether he wants to work on our marriage or not? Please don't take anything I say personally, I am just in shock myself and really have no clue what if I should keep fighting or if I am wasting my time.

You don't have to use cheaterville.
Exposure to family, friends etc fully and methodically will be fine.

Jedi and others do feel cheaterville is worthwhile.

I have reservations about it (though it wasn't available while I was exposing and I didn't save my marriage in the end so who am I to say). I think the site is sort of slimy looking though. In theory it is fine but the actual site is full of judgemental comments.

Susie, I am unsure why you believe the affair is over. I sure don't believe that and don't think it even matters. I would put the OW on cheaterville because it is therapeutic. It causes enormous chaos and conflict in the affair. Like you said, it will propel the OW to call your husband up screaming and carrying on. That will be great!!

I am catching up on your thread and that your H has left. In that case, you should go into Plan B.

Did you have a call with the Harleys yet?

He has been exposed to his friends and family. I have no way of contacting her friends or family except the ones I already did.

I seriously doubt that they have had no contact since D-Day.
You need to stick with the program and do it, not stand idly questioning every move.
Do you watch football? In every play, the football players have a plan on what they will do. They don't stop in the middle of the field questioning what the plan is.

Exposure brings the affair into the light of day.
If she likes being exposed to the whole world, then she can tell them that her affair is good and wholesome and won't be bothered at all.
But if she calls your husband complaining, then you know that he's not serious anyway because he would have already had her number blocked if there was true no contact.

This is where Cheaterville is so good for exposure

susie, did you read up about Plan B? If you don't go into Plan B, your husband will come in and out of your life at will and will drive you crazy. Going into Plan B is a great option because it puts you back in control of your life by shutting him out unless and until he meets your conditions.

Are you familiar with how it works?

I have not had the call with the Harleys yet. I don't know the affair to be over but I do not think there has been contact in the last 10 days. Off course, I can be wrong but at this point I am unsure that fighting to save this marriage is in my best interest. All I want is to be able to relocate myself with children to my home country.

I asked if he was willing to do anything to save our marriage and at first he said yes but then it turned into anything to keep my kids in the US, close to me. And that he loved me but he didn't feel romantic love for me and that he could never again feel it for me. He says it has nothing to do with the affair, that he felt that way way before he even met her. He left after I insisted he needed to leave because it was doing too much emotional damage to me to be treated so poorly and that I knew I didn't deserve his rejection, therefore having him around to keep belittling me in front of my children was not an option. I showed him MB webpage the Basic concepts page and he didn't even take a second look at it. That is when I told him to get his [censored] up, put ALL his paycheck on the desk and leave. He left but came back when I was asleep and slept in the other room and left around 6:45 to work (supposedly anyway).

I agree you should not be fighting for your marriage at this point, which is why I suggested going into Plan B. I like your plan to go live with your parents. Are you familiar with Plan B?

Plan B is a complete and totally dark separation that protects you from his abuse. You would initiate it with a love letter that gives him all of your conditions for reconciliation. You can read about it here: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2482787#Post2482787

Reconciliation is never guaranteed, though. If he ever does agree to meet your conditions, you would decide whether or not it is in your best interest.

I read up on it. I am trying to find an IM, I will tell him today again, he needs to leave, but since I am a SAHM, he is obligated to pay for everything and I expect the paycheck cashed in the IM's hand (or his sister's hand) by 7pm every Friday with a copy of the check stub so I know he is giving me everything because we are living paycheck to paycheck so every penny I need to pay bills and feed my kids. What he does to feed and house himself and pay for gas to get to work is not my problem. He will not come in and out of the house and he will have a schedule to see the kids. He will have to figure it out cause he can't take them in the work truck and I am not "lending" him our only car to take them anywhere. He also cannot come spend time with them at MY house. And he cannot take them overnight unless IM sees that he has a fit place to take them and for my children's protection, with no room mates.

In the mean time his sister is finding out what I need to do to relocate the children but she believes that if I file for divorce on the grounds of adultery, everything is in my favor.

Melody, my family is in a whole other country, I can't just up and leave because of the legalities with the kids. I will have him leave, once everything else is worked out legally I will move myself and my children to my country. In the meantime, he will have to support himself and this household. I am not putting my baby in child care to go to work to make his life easier. Once I am back in my country, I will go to work, knowing my baby is in the best hands, those of his loving family.

I would change the locks today so he can't come in.

Is his check not direct deposited into your bank account? Having to hand over cash every week is going to be troublesome because it is another reason for contact you don't need.

And how old are your children? I would make up a visitation schedule and send it with your Plan B letter. For example, let him pick up the kids every Wednesday from 5 to 7 and Saturdays from 1 to 4.

Are you familiar with the Plan B letter? Can you post it here so we can give you feedback? Also, how will you get him the letter? You need to be able to give him the letter and then shut down all contact. There should be NO discussion, no nothing after he receives that letter. You can even email it to him.

My 2 older kids are 9 and 7, the baby is 10m. I guess my older kids can walk out the door with the baby. His check is not dd. Handing the cash would be no reason to contact me, if he either gives it to his sister, who is a few houses down from me or to the kids when he drops them off after visitation. the other option was having him pick them up from his sister's house and have him deposit the check but then he has access to the money. Now fact is, he cannot take the kids, he has no adequate transportation but again that is not my problem. I need a little time to write that letter because the love is just not there right now. I have nothing nice to say to him.

Melody, other than PM is there anyway to talk to you in private?

It sounds like a good plan! And you should write the letter in your own words. You don't have to write it like in the letter, but you do need to be kind and attractive.

One thing you could do is leave the kids at the sisters house and he can visit them there. But you are absolutely right, visitation is his problem, not yours.

Hit mod notify and type in your email address and ask the mods to send me your email. I will send you an email.

you mean the little notify button on the bottom of this post? Excuse me if I am slow, I just can't seem to think straight or function well right now

Talked to his sister, she said she was going to talk to her husband about the visitation part because her husband is NOT happy at all with what my husband did and she will make a sacrifice if her husband agrees but she wants nothing to do with him either. She said he can put the money through her mail slot
I need an IM

Does your husband have an email account? The best way to communicate via an IM is through email. Your IM doesn't even have to live in the same country. She just has to be available to screen emails for you.

Yes, the "notify" button on the bottom of the post.

Susie,
A few steps to take:
1) Get an attorney. You need to know your writes and have a legal plan in place right away. You will not have enough to live on if he decides to keep his money.

2) Write your Plan B letter. Though you may not FEEL love your husband, you need to express it anyway. Part of Dr. Harley's plan requires you to rise above your emotions. As we say here often, "Feelings follow actions." So take action. That Plan B letter is supposed to be your last communication with him unless he agrees to end his affair for life, and take the extraordinary precautions required to recover your marriage. So make this Plan B letter one that professes true love but that also lays out the terms for your safety and well being.

3) Don't put too much trust in your in-laws. Though right now, they want what is best for your husband--an in tact family--chances are in the end they will be on his side. You can have a relationship with them, but depend on them for nothing.

4) Stick to Plan B and don't let the wide swings of this emotional pendulum dictate your actions. What you are going through is the toughest battle you will ever experience. And so you have to combat it strategically. If you ever doubt a step you are taking, we are here to help you.

1) I am getting an attorney consultation Monday. If he keeps his money, my family will send me some to survive until I can leave. I have one friend that I am sure will let me and the kids stay at her place until I can leave, if I have no choice.

2) I will write the letter and post it for you guys to let me know if it is good enough.

3) Him and his sister have never gotten along too well, I know, she is still his sister so I need to be careful and not put all my trust in her helping me.

4) thank you. I will stick to plan B, I know it will be hard but I have no choice, I have to think of me and my kids. I gave it my all to save this marriage, now the ball is in his court.

Dear husband,

It is very difficult to write this letter to you. I have given it so much thought. I have written this letter with the true love that only a wife can have for a husband. Please read every word I have written, for it is comes from my heart.

I would like to acknowledge and apologize for my part in the demise of our marriage. I neglected your needs, and failed to give you what you needed many times. I'm sure this helped create a void in our marriage that allowed our relationship to drift away and your affair to happen. I have said this before, and I want to say it again: I want to do whatever I can to put our marriage back together in a mutually satisfying way. I feel that I have been learning ways to be the type of woman that I hope you would be proud to call your wife, as I have so many times felt pride in calling you my husband. I so want to be able to put the past behind us, and build a better life together for us and our children.

The past few months have been a difficult passage of time for me, the most emotionally traumatic in my life. We seemed to start recovery in the beginning, after I first found out, only to slip and fail again. I am still feeling the hurt and pain when I don't know where you are, or when you'll be home. We have somehow misplaced our foundation of trust and respect. Whereas in the past I endured the hurt and pain, I now see that it is soon to drain my love for you. Until you can truthfully and honestly return home and work with me on rebuilding our marriage, I will be having no communication with you, and I will not be seeing you. This is not to punish you, it is to protect my feelings for you and our chances at reconciliation. If we continue as we are now, there will be nothing left.

I ask that you please respect my decision to separate in this way. We will arrange for you to see the kids. Feel free to call the kids.

I will be seeking counsel on how to best protect the kids financially, and how we can legally move to my country.

I want us to be a team, and restore our marriage together. I want you to know that no matter how bad the past was, no matter how ugly, we can get past it. With God's help, our true healing can begin. Look inside yourself and find the strength we will need to do this.

I want to grow old with you. I loved you more than life itself while we were together, and I continue to do so as I write this. When you find yourself ready and willing to truly and fully commit to our family, willing to work on a plan for our recovery, and go to counseling, I will be ready and willing to discuss our future.

God be with you, my love.

Your loving wife,
Susie

Susie,

Hold off on sending your letter until you have an IM and experienced Plan B posters review it.
I don't like the way you wrote it and it needs to be reviewed by others.

I used one of the samples and changed a few words around. I will definitely wait to send but do I allow him in our home today?

I changed up the letter a little bit. For the most part, it was perfect. I removed the "counseling" part, since that will wreck your marriage.

Before you send it, I would get the visitation times lined up with his sister and get your IM set up. THEN you can send the letter. [maybe tomorrow]

Before you send the letter, I would take out your locks and take them up to Home Depot so they can re-key them. After you give him the letter, he should not be allowed in the house.

How will you get the letter to him? Can you leave it for him at his sisters house?

thank you for reading through it. I have 2 problems though, have not found an IM and his sister has not agreed to visitation at her place, yet. She agreed to have him drop off the money but I might as well have him give the envelope to my kids on their Saturday visit, when he returns them. I don't want him to have any leverage to say I am making contact and visitation with the kids impossible. I guess I can have him pick them up from the house and walk them to the park and back? Won't work if it is raining but again, not my problem, right?

I figured the letter would be set outside with his stuff, as I have already told him to leave. or no?

Get the visitation set up and find your IM. I don't think I would leave his stuff outside though. He has left, right?

No, he never actually left.
He said he was leaving and returned a few hours later last night and spent the night in the home

Thanks. So Susie, that has to be the first step. You have to ask him to move out. THEN you can go into Plan B.

He left about 2am and came back around 5am when I was asleep. left to work around 6:30 before I was up. I have asked him to leave, repeated that to him this afternoon when he txted me asking some silly question about the kids and then tried to sweet talk me by telling me "I don't hate you", "I do love you", etc. I replied with "Please stop playing with my head and leave me already". He came home, I was here with a friend of mine and even though she knows and my kids know, I did not want to tell him he was not to come here, for my kids sake, I do not want do that to them. I will remind him tonight that he needs to leave as per his choice to not work through our marital issues to save our marriage and his attachment to his affair.

Pack his bags and put them by the door. Ask him to leave immediately.

what do I do if he refuses to leave?

Then pack up and move in with your family.

Melody, my family is overseas... or I would have left 12 days ago!

What is your plan?

he has been saying he wants to separate but doesn't want me to go overseas, so I could stay in the house and he would leave. Last night he was adamant that we would never get our marriage to work again, so I told him he needed to leave but would be 100% responsible for the household expenses until I found a suitable childcare solution and a job or he signed papers for me to take the kids overseas...

I thought he was really going to leave but I know he has nowhere to go (not that it is my problem) and no money as he gave it all but $30 that he must have used before he came home. Now it seems like he will not voluntarily leave even if I ask him to. I guess he also thought I would not ask him to leave. I would have to see what an attorney tells me Monday about moving myself and the kids overseas before presenting Plan B letter! Now, I know that is going to probably not going to be able to be finalized for months and no judge will grant me that sort of move, with the school year rolling, as in the best interest of the children.

I could go back to Plan A, just try to make as many love bank deposits as possible, etc. while I wait to be able to present Plan B if all else fails?

I don't know what to do because unfortunately he has the control. He is the one who has a job and brings in money, this is his house too so I can't force him out. I can't make him follow EP's if he doesn't want. And let's face it, I am the idiot who is still in love with him.

I am going to find suitable childcare for my 10m old and find me a job so I can maybe move out until the custody issues are solved. I know this is unhealthy and I need to get off the roller coaster but I need to be prepared to do so.

When you see the lawyer, find out your rights and consider filing for a legal separation which lays out what he will be legally responsible for providing for you and the children.
Otherwise, you are more vulnerable in regards to financial support.

Somehow you need to separate with the next 2 weeks. You aren't going to make lovebank deposits, you are going to tear yourself down WORSE and make yourself more unattractive than before. This is why Dr Harley only recommends Plan A for 3 weeks for women. Any more than that just makes the situation WORSE and makes it less likely your marriage will make it.

I would try packing his bags first and asking him to leave. If he won't do that, then you should make plans to leave and go live with your parents.

An attorney can request support (child and spousal) for you as well as seek exclusive use of the house. He can be forced out...maybe not today but he can be.

Hang in there Susie

Ok, he will leave tonight. I will go see an attorney tomorrow, too. Reality is that we have not had a sincere talk about this because he doesn't talk, he will only say half of what he means. For example I might get him to say I hurt his feelings but won't tell me how or why. He claims he really has stopped all contact with the OW and will not attempt contact ever again but that it doesn't mean he can "unlove her" and that I guess I overdrafted my love bank years ago without even knowing, so he quits me. So even without her in the picture my love bank debt is so huge, he doesn't think I can repay it.

Great!!


Perfect.


That is fine. You don't need to hear what he says, he needs to hear what you say.

After he leaves, I would take the locks to the hardware store and get them re-keyed.

The thing is, what got us where we are right now was lack of communication, or too much talking from me and none from him.

He feels I should give him some time to find a place but I feel it is hurting me and my children. They think everything is ok because daddy is home, daddy is not leaving us, we are going to remain a family.

The other issue is, I don't even see how he will do that and pay for our bills in this house. I just told his sister who said maybe I should give him a little time, that he won't have the money to move ever, so we will continue in this situation that is emotionally damaging to me and the kids until he signs papers and I leave the country.

What got you here was a) his affair and b) falling out of love.


He wants to use your home as a flop house while he pursues his affair in other words. I assure you the affair is not over or he wouldn't be asking for "space." I would tell your children that Daddy is leaving because of the hurt his affair caused and his refusal to work on the marriage. Kids need to know the truth.


He has a legal responsibility to pay the bills so I wouldn't worry too much about that. If he stops paying the bills, you can get an emergency court order to force him to pay.

I am shocked that you say this. It is his AFFAIR that has wrecked your marriage. You both know very well how to "communicate." That did not wreck your marriage. It was his AFFAIR.

Susie,

Did you post OW on Cheaterville?
Did he leave the house tonight?
Did you change the locks?
Did you find an IM?

I have not posted on cheaterville and I won't. I am not fighting for this marriage anymore. It is over. He has a suitcase packed, he is staying for tonight. Kids and I left the house for a few hours and they came back asleep so will not see him. I think I have found my IM, I have a second cousin that lives here, too and while she is willing to help as much as possible, she too agrees my best support is in my home country. I can't afford to change the locks, so I will just buy a new lock for the gate that leads to the front door.

Susie, I never recovered as I was done with him. Exposure is still SO vital - especially since he is till the father of your kids.

Posting her on Cheaterville causes trouble in the A. Trouble in the A frees him from this evil and prevents her from becoming your kids evil stepmother!

I think Plan B will give you your sanity back but be sure to expose thoroughly.

Don't worry about the 'fairness'. She saw your life, liked it and played nice so as to lift it like a thief. And told you it was the pregnancy making you crazy.

Take her down without a qualm.

Unscrew the lock from the door and take it to a locksmith who will rekey it. This will cost far less than a new lock for the gate. Be sure not to lose any screws and to remember how it came apart!

susie I recently had a locksmith come to my house and rekey my locks to all use the same key. The locksmith was able to do it quickly and it was less expensive than buying new locks.

Can you call a locksmith and get a quote to rekey if you are not comfortable trying to remove and reinstall them yourself?

It is way too early to give up on your marriage.

Let plan B protect you from the craziness while your WH gets a reality check.

If your WH turns himself around and is ready to commit to the marriage, then you will be stronger and in a better position to decide what you really want.

Plan B brings peace and clears the air around you.

The vast majority of BS's want him back one day, then want him dead the next. This emotional reaction is due to shock and we call it the rollercoaster. You may not have made your final decision yet.

Either way: Exposure and Plan B leaves all the options open. You can get peace, sanity, start healing - make your decision whenever you like.

Thank you all, I have found an IM, I also finally got in touch with my WH's dad, he told the dad he was not getting along with me and wanted to separate and that he had met someone else and had fallen in love with this other woman. Dad thought well, if they are not getting along it is best they separate, that was until I told him the whole story. the reasons I have been given as to why he fell out of love with me and how the affair began and continued with WH's allowing this woman into our home and my life and the lives of our children. How he refuses counseling or any attempt to save our marriage. All the financial woes and the fact that he has been drinking and smoking and letting the kids go without but at the same time expects to cover the cost of 2 households. My FIL said, it sounded like his son was acting like a spoiled brat and needed an asswhooping and a reality check. I told him that I knew I had contributed to him falling out of love and allowing that breach that made the affair possible but that I was willing to change and work on our marriage. I told him the only reason I was telling him all the financial woes was because if things don't work out I wanted him to understand, too, why I felt it was best for the children and myself to go back to my country.

Yes, that is how I feel. One moment I want him to just vanish and the next I want him back. I am going to go to counseling myself. My FIL asked I let his son stay at least until he speaks to him because basically because of a bunch of tickets and a suspended license, we run the risk of him going to jail and then definitely the kids and I will be in a worse position financially. He agrees that his son needs to moves out and pay EVERY single bill for me and the kids, so he can get a reality check but told me to give him a chance to speak to him first. I reluctantly agreed to do so, but told him he could only come sleep, bathe and leave, he must come after kids and I are in bed around 11pm and must leave by no later than 6am. He cannot eat any food, he must do his laundry at the laundromat and he must give me his complete weekly 40hr check. Anything beyond 40hrs would be to pay the tickets. I know most here will not agree to this but I cannot allow him to go to jail because then I am completely financially screwed. And I also said only for 2 weeks at the most. Oh and ok, I will post on Cheaterville.

Susie,

Post the OW on Cheaterville and drive nails into this affair.

As for Plan B, you need to get into Plan B ASAP.
Make sure you have an IM lined up first

got an im, plan b will go into effect after wh speaks with his dad and figures were he will stay but no longer than 2 weeks from today. Cheaterville will meet a new cheater tonight.

I thought you were all prepared to go into Plan B today?? What is the delay?

Done, waiting on approval

Susie,
I understand that your FIL is concerned that your husband may not have a place to stay.
However, I want to tell you that by allowing him to stay you are enabling his behavior.
Does your husband have an active warrant for his arrest? If so, that's an even better way to keep him out of the house.

I finally spoke to his dad, he asked me to give him a chance to speak to his son before I let him go homeless. But he agrees son needs to fully support the kids and I and move out until he gets his act together .

Susie,

You need to get him out and into Plan B sooner.
Your FIL may have good intentions and is trying to help but you need to stay focused on yourself and your child, not on your wayward husband.

What do I gain if he gets arrested and can't work? I have NO money, no job and neither does he have any money. If he gets arrested and goes to jail, I still cannot leave the country with the kids because I have no money for tickets. I will have no money for food or to pay any bills. He needs to be able to work and support my kids and I or we will end homeless bouncing from one friends' house to the next.

But you have already given him this chance. Your husband has declined. There is no reason to wait another day! Does the father believe he has some magic words? If he has magic words, I would ask him to say them TONIGHT becuase your H needs to get out tomorrow.

No more delays, Susie. You enabling your husband.

What country are you in?
Is it a civilized country with a social welfare system?

I understand all you are saying and yes I am focusing on my kids, they were very upset thinking their dad is homeless, that right there can turn back into my kids hating me for letting their dad be homeless. so I explained to them he can only be here for a very short time and they said that as long as daddy didn't have to sleep in the streets and get killed they were ok with him only sleeping here. So yeah, leaving him homeless in the eyes of my kids is not a good thing

I see we wasted alot of valuable time trying to help you get into Plan B when you really weren't serious about saving your marriage. If your goal is to enable your husband there is nothing we can do for you.

Susie,

I understand Plan B can be a major problem if you live in poverty in a third world, inner city slum.
But since your husband is in trouble for parking tickets (which are usually issued in civilized countries), and you have regular access to the internet and aren't living in a mud hut I don't see the imminent danger you feel you face from Plan B.

Do you know that will happen?
If he stays in this house, even under the silly conditions that you gave his father (which won't last but a few days)...you will become depressed, anxious, sleepless, start loosing weight and become an overall emotional and physical mess.

This will not help you, your child or your marriage.

Your marriage can survive a loss of a job, or a night in jail (which I still dont understand how spending the nights at home keeps him out of jail), or him going to a friends house.
Your marriage cannot survive active adultery

Melody, I am sorry you feel this way. I do appreciate the time everyone has put into helping me get ready for Plan B. His dad does not have magical words, his dad simple wants to speak to his son so he can KNOW what his son's plan is, in the meantime he doesn't want his son in the streets.



The tickets are not parking tickets, it was a ticket for getting on the HOV lane when he was alone, which he went to court on the wrong date and got a contempt, then paid the contempt fee but forgot to go to the new court date and his license got suspended.

Ok right now all I have is enough money to buy food for the week, and gas, what is left is for the mortgage that if I don't pay by September 30th, will go into foreclosure. I cannot let my 7yr old live in fear that his dad is going to get killed because he is homeless. He does not have any friends to go stay with. His sister told him NOPE can't stay with her.

Susie,

This is how you speak to the 7 year old: "Your dad is having an affair with XXXX and it is very painful for me to be around him so I will not speak to him or see him until he ends his affair and loves our family"

Susie,

Where does it end?

If he brings a woman home past midnight and is having sex with her on the couch do you bring them cookies and milk when they are done?
Because if you kick him out he could be homeless and die on the streets?

It will end.

Sorry to burst your bubble but your doing this for your scandalous WH because you expect him to be grateful and come back to you. Unfortunately, that will not happen and if I was a betting man I'm pretty sure this will continue. He messes up, you clean up, expect a reward and get just the opposite. You can't continue this cycle and stay sane. That's why Plan B was suggested. Let's look at some facts:

1. He chose to have an affair despite your feelings and those of your family.

2. He got a ticket and did not go to court. Warrant issued.

3. He decided to "leave" the marriage.

Now on to your plan:

1. You decide to let him use the marital home as a flop house because you are worried about your kids. (latter being an excuse to enable)

2. You decide to tell his father with hope his father can control him. Is there a reason he can't stay with his sister who is obviously a friend of your marriage. I'm assuming you exposed the affair to her.

3. You decide not to tell your kids so your WH can manipulate the situation into a pity party and blame you with the kids as his accomplices.

You need to tell your kids! My son was 4 when I exposed his mom affair and guess what?! He got upset with is mother and didn't want to speak to her till she left the OM. Kids are alot smarter than we as adults give them credit for. Trapping your children in a home with a man who obviously doesn't care about them is worse than daddy being homeless due to his bad decisions. Right now your WH is a bad influence, go to lawyer request spousal support and have him removed from the home. Let your adult WH worry about his own problems that HE CAUSED due to his affair.

Susie, you are being a deer in the headlights. Believe me, we understand, we have all been there. Don't make the mortgage payment, let the house go into foreclosure, say nothing to your WH. Use the money to buy your airline tickets. Sell the car to a dealer for cash to clear your credit card debt. Best of luck to you.

Does your DS7 know that his dad is having an affair?

Yes, but I don't think he fully understands what that means.

I will be speaking with Dr. Harley tomorrow.

You guys I appreciate everything, it is just difficult when I have family and friends tell me one thing, you guys another, my kids begging me and my heart stretched in every direction. I am in that roller coaster, one day I want to save this and feel that it is possible, the next I just want him to die and the next I just think anything I do will be used against me. From one moment to the next I don't know how to feel. My train of thought (right or worng ) goes like this Kicking him out will make him resent me, keeping him here is like letting him use me, leaving will traumatize my kids as it is a big change we would be moving overseas, different culture, lifestyle, etc.

Perhaps you are right. He can't stay with his sister because she is not happy about his choices in this situation, so she refuses to help him. But she did say that maybe I should let him stay here until he finds a place and a way to pay for it

Susie,
Your inlaws have NO qualifications to be giving you advise on how to kill an affair and save a marriage.
You need to focus on the MB methods or you will lose this battle for your marriage.

You are right but I am scared and overwhelmed and sad. I have never been on my own. I don't know if I can be strong for my kids, at the end of the day when I am exhausted both physically and emotionally and have no help what so ever with them. It wouldn't be as scary if I didn't have a baby right now. Regardless of my WH's affair and lack of commitment to our relationship, I can't say he did not help around the house and took care of things and he does help with the kids. Not having that support is very overwhelming and scary but I also want a chance at saving my marriage for more than those reasons.

Well he might have helped here and there, all the while he was destroying his family. My H also cheated while I had an infant, and I know how much prescense and strenght you need to have to care for an infant in the mids of an affair. The last thing you need is a cheating H helping you around.
Your older kids are capable of helping with little errands. You can do with the basics and forget about having an inmaculate home for now. Focus on your wellbeing.

This is good advice. You will feel at peace and stronger like superwoman when your krptonite aka WH is out of your house and you have no contact

Thank you. I am trying, kids try to help but I know my oldest is really not taking all this too well. My middle child is just living in a fantasy to avoid the reality. And my baby is clingier than ever.

Did you expose to your children?

About the homelessness issue Susie:

An affair is an addiction and your husband is an addict, Susie.

Addicts end up homeless. NOT because of their mean, nasty wives. But because they are not able to quit endangering their wives' sanity, spending marital cash on a whore or to keep the home safe from vile messages.

Remember that in Plan B your doors are WIDE open - as long as he commits to being faithful. Not such a hard ask if homelessness is looming, right?

Yet he won't.

Without that commitment he will continue to have his affair out of your home. Because he is addicted. He will continue to have the affair after he promises his dad not to. Because he is addicted.

FiL sounds like a nice man; but anyone who falls for the fairy story his son told him has no earthly clue about affairs. He honeslty thinks a reasonable chat will 'wake up' an addict.

Unfortunately it is usually rock bottom which does that. For your children's father. The sooner your husband hits rock bottom the sooner he may CHOOSE to respect the marital home.

Plan C - for compromise/confusion - will harm your health past a few weeks which you have already endured. We have seen women be committed.

If he can't live up to his vows to you - it's his problem and his dad's problem where he sleeps.



These are great ideas.

Your children should know their father can come home as soon as he ends his affair.

Don't let them think a woman puts the roof over the head of a cheat.

Your sons should know homelessness is what happens to men with no respect for home.

Your daughters cannot become that woman and neither should you.

You guys are right, I will be a caller on tomorrow's show. I will listen to what Dr. Harley has to say and move to Plan B, as you all have been telling me. I don't know how I will be able to take care of my children but I will.

To the poster who asked if my kids knew, Yes I told them the same night I discovered the secret phone. I don't think either grasps the concept well enough. I can tell my oldest son is depressed, my middle child thinks it is all about the "phone" itself and since daddy gave the phone to me, all should be good.

Try rexposing in a calmer way. That you still all love dad and hope he will choose to come home to you all. That adultery is very wrong but we all make mistakes. They can express their hopes to their father too.

Affairs don't last and when it ends there needs to be a way back to respectability for him; even if that way back is just with the kids.

There's a great thread here on exposure to the children

Will look for it... My oldest is really taking it hard.I can see it is affecting his personality and he just looks sad, even the way he walks, he has lost all that spunk.

Of course he is. His mental map of the world just shattered. The only reality he has ever known. This is a very healthy reaction, allow him to mourn the loss. He will go through disbelief and anger before starting his rebuild. Know that this was the best thing you could do as his world belief was based on a falsehood which is why adultery runs in families particularly same sex parent to child. Now he can understand things that were incomprehensible.

Take care not to bad mouth your WH, even out of his hearing. He needs to hear only facts from you. Do not gloss over the truth but keep away from your emotions. Let him feel safe talking to you, he must not hear that his father is a bad person

And though it is fine to show how devastating this is to you.....let your children know that you ARE their ROCK to lean on in life.
That they can count on you to be their beloved Mom.

Susie,

Were you on the radio Show today?
Did you expose the OW on Cheaterville?

yes and yes. I have a sick kid. we were at the er almost all night. will reply as soon as i can

Oh no.
I hope your kid gets better !

Thanks, we are guessing a virus but he has a health condition so any fever requires ER visits. I think he is just really emotional distressed with this situation.

I posted on cheaterville but just saw it was rejected for some reason, so I reposted.

Dr. Harley was great. He seems to think moving out of the country is best, he suggested I invited my WH to move with us. I know I have been reluctant to just make him leave the house and talking to Dr. Harley also about myself (as I did with my best friend the night before) I came to the realization, that I need to change, I need to let go of this need to have some sort of control, as I do get upset/depressed when things don't happen as I want/wished when many of those things are completely out of anyone's control. It is a big love buster and off course I have my doubts but I do think the affair is over, my WH's reluctance to work on the marriage is about being FREE of my control. I could be completely wrong, but I do believe DR. Harley agrees with me that my WH feels this situation is what is preventing him from committing. Having this need to control things is a hard burden on me, I need to learn to let go and in the process my WH might decide to come home. Now that does not mean I am to blame for his affair, that is his choice, he and only he is responsible for that. He is also responsible of his decision to work on the marriage or not but any pressure from me will not be received well.

Dr. Harley and Joyce figured, end of the month is not too far away so we can wait for his decision. I have emailed them back to ask a few more questions. Since the suggestion is I move out of the country, which is a huge task with legal implications, if they think I need to make my WH leave the home while I get all the legalities taken care of, so the kids and I can move. Dr. Harley also seems to have a feel that the affair probably is over but my WH is still in the fog.

Dr. Harley says we should move no matter what. Even if we decide he decides to come back and work on the marriage. If he refuses and the affair is still going on he suggest I move to out of the country for 2yrs to see if the affair ends a natural death and in that period open an invitation for him to move there.

Just change the locks while he is out to get him to leave! Have his stuff sent on.

Getting out to a whole new place will focus your energies on you. This will either create a brand new life for you or create an attractive life for WH to join when he is ready. Win-win.

Here's your show.
Radio Clip of susiew's show

I have not had a chance to actually sit and have a real conversation with WH but I did tell him that when I said "I do" I meant it and that forgiveness was possible, that I knew it was going to take a lot of work on both sides to make it work but that it was going to be worth it. He also spoke with his dad who told him he needed to think very well what he was about to lose. To not make the same mistakes he had made when young and fight for his marriage and kids. He has decided he wants to work on our marriage. I want to go through the list of EP's with him and make sure he agrees to all of them before I settle for him staying home. We have been kind of busy and stress because our oldest son is still sick, so I want to set a time when we both are calm and receptive to sit and talk about this. I would appreciate lots of positive thoughts and prayers, so that I can present this to him in the best way possible.

Susie,

The first thing that needs done is a No Contact letter to the OW.
He needs to copy the one from Surviving an Affair and write it and sign it. You mail it to OW.
He must agree to no contact with OW for the rest of his life.

Here is the letter from Surviving an Affair:

I will talk to him about it tonight. Hopefully he really has decided to stay in the marriage and not just doing what daddy told him to do.

Susie,

There's no room for negotiation.
You need to tell him that he must agree to no contact and a recovery plan in order to make you feel safe in the marriage.

We've been asking you to go into Plan B so that you would not be in a negotiation with him about this.

I don't think he is serious but the No Contact letter will be a good indicator of his intentions.

Please post back after speaking to him.

DO NOT NEGOTIATE OR TRY TO EXPLAIN THE NO CONTACT LETTER.

Simply tell him: "I am willing to create a loving marriage with you but you must first agree to end your affair and have no contact with your affair partner."

If he agrees, hand him the language of the letter and ask him to write it to her and sign it so you can mail it.

Susie,

Was OW ever exposed on Cheaterville?

It is not about negotiating what parts of the EP he wants to follow. It's all or nothing. I meant he said he decided to try to save our marriage, that is about the extent of the conversation we had. I mentioned "daddy" because his decision came AFTER he spoke to his dad and since all I had to go off on was him telling me he would TRY, I was yet to sit and talk to him fully.

I asked again if he had any contact with OW, since the day her husband txt and he said no and that there would be no more contact ever again. I asked he write the letter and he said he didn't see the point but if it made me feel better he would. He also has said (like I said on the radio show) she is not the reason for the break up. It is the accumulation of years of frustration and lack of communication. Do I believe him? I do believe that is what open the doors for the affair to happen, he still had a choice. I believe the affair spilled the cup and since he is addicted to her now, he doesn't see how to get out. He's having a hard time seeing a renewed marriage. I'd say he is walking out of the fog and into withdrawal. I said yes it will make me feel better because no matter what happens in our marriage I don't want her to be part of my children's life.

I know you've been telling me to go into plan B but picking up my kids and moving over seas cannot happen over night. It cannot even happen without his consent. Him moving out means I have no way of knowing if he will pay the bills and if he doesn't we will end from friend's house to friend's house. Yes, I can set spousal/child support but that does not mean he will pay it. By the time wages are garnished my kids and I would be homeless. Also my kid is really sick right now, if he is not better by tomorrow, he will be admitted to the hospital to run more tests. I need HIS help with the other 2 kids. So Plan B is really not an option at this very moment. Once my kid is better and I get some news on some money that we are owed, I can either keep that money and tell him to leave, as I will have enough for a few months but would try to make him pay for all and keep the money stashed. Or he has fully committed to the EP's and we are working on our marriage.

The rest I am leaving in God's hands. Chances are my kids and I will end up overseas by the summer of 2015 but I will do it legally, with his consent and in the least disturbing manner for the children.

I am confused. Did your husband actually sit down and write the letter? I ask because my husband was very reluctant to write the letter and responded much as your husband did. He put it off, said it wasn't necessary, came up with excuses. I learned that this behavior meant that he still intended to have contact with OW, which he did for the next three months.

From what you have written, it appears as if you are setting yourself up for a sad future. Find a way to implement Plan B.

AM

Susie,

Was OW ever exposed on Cheaterville?

Yes very effectively up to 5000+ views!

Susie you need to send OW a link to her profile on Cheaterville, her embarrisment over the 5000+ views will hopefully cause her to throw your WH under the bus killing all fantasy of having a soul mate.

God Bless
Gamma

All marriages have 'problems'.
That your H says the affair isn't what caused the break up of the marriage is totally part of the wayward spiel. It would be more surprising if your H didn't make that statement.

You take ownership of creating an environment where things were not being resolved in a jointly agreeable way and you put that behind you as you continue Plan A and head for, most likely, Plan B.

I getting the legalities worked out, that way if he can compromise in the time being, I will have that ready move.

I have no way to contact her. unless I send the link via txt from my phone which I don't think would be a good idea or yes?

He texted me earlier and asked what he needed to say in the nc letter. Said he will bring it home so I can mail it. He just keeps telling me he feels overwhelmed and can't think straight. I suggested he put his big boy pants on and get himself some help. I am disconnecting from him, we will sleep under the same roof until I have everything settled to legally move. I won't kick him out but I won't be his doormat either.

I just got my book in the mail... going to read it. Do I keep it for myself or do I let him see it?

YOU should be writing the no contact letter, in the MB format. Waywards often write a closure love letter as their 'no contact letter' and that is not the kind of letter you want to send. You need to drive the no contact letter process, not let the fogged out wayward do it.

I would read it myself, and if he happened to see it and expressed interest he could read it.
But I wouldn't try to push the book on him.
In my case, my wayward wife saw the book..and I think she later took it and destroyed it.

This is NOT MB recovery!

he is not interested in recovery, he made that clear. No use in bothering. I give up but until I have all the legal paperwork I will stay in this house and so will he. Then I will move on without him.

Even though you have given up......follow Plan A while preparing to go to Plan B.

I like to say "never shoot yourself in the foot" (well, it is an old saying but it fits surviving an affair quite well).

Be the best wife/woman you are capable of being as you move forward.

That means you do not lovebust and you do not make proclamations about the marriage being over to your H (you can think it and plan for it but don't give him the message).

Matter of fact, while you both are in the house together....look your best, smell your best, use your best and kindest voice.

Once you go to Plan B, you can get relief from the nightmare as you heal.

Thank you. He did give me the letter, it just said "Out of respect for my wife and kids, I will not have any more contact with you. Please do not contact me."

That is a part of what needs to be written.

Here is the one from the book:

OW,
I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk with you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that Susie did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay her for the pain I have caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.
Sincerely,
(his name)


You can see it clearly states his love for his family. His resolve to be a good husband you you and how the affair was cruel and is over.

Okay?

I told him the letter was not good enough but the whole point is he does not want to do it, he is doing it to appease me, so really it would be worth nothing for him to write the letter, if he doesn't mean it. That is why I said I am giving up on trying to save this marriage. I will do what I need to find my peace in the next few months, while I prepare to move my children overseas.

Tell him to write it out verbatim. The sentiments expressed in the letter are non negotiable. None of the conditions are. If he wavers or seems foot-dragging in any way just breezily say:

"Oh of course I don't want you to attempt it without FULL enthusiasm. So, where will you be staying?"

Update. Well, I actually caught WH with the OW, it got ugly. I had her husband on the phone while all this went down. My WH just got in his truck and left and didn't come home that night. The next day, he called me to pick him up as his boss wanted the work van back. So all weekend, we were here, had some talks. I told him that for everything he had to say I did or didn't do there was something I needed that I was not receiving from him either. We went through the emotional needs questionnaire very informally and surprisingly, his most important emotional needs are mine too. He was not meeting mine nor was I meeting his. He continued to txt OW through the weekend. Come monday, when I picked him up, he handed me the phone and told me to read the txt msgs. She broke off the affair, she told him that she loved and respected her husband and me far more than she had the will to see through their connection and she was ready for her words to match her actions, therefore she was going to step away and work on herself and her marriage and she encouraged him to do the same.

Long story short, we are now on Plan B because there is too much hurt to get past to be able to save this marriage and fix it. I have no clue where he is, I will have no contact with him at all.

Through this whole ordeal, it has come out that we have been dealing with an emotionally abusive cycle, with me being in control most often. This is in no way to justify the affair or put all blame on myself. I have unknowingly, caused deep hurt to my loved ones. Not only my husband but my children. Emotional abuse sounds like some perverse action but it really is something so subtle and seemingly innocent that causes others to feel bad about themselves even if those are not the intentions of the perpetrator. I am working on accepting my mistakes and not only forgiving myself but changing the way I communicate, the words I choose and my actions to match my heart so my true love and feelings can be expressed to those I love. My marriage cannot be saved, if I don't save myself first. My WH has to do his own healing and come to accept he is not the victim, it was a 2 way street and we both messed up. I cannot control his healing, nor can I put a time limit. I can only control mine.

My predicament comes from the extraordinary precautions. Some of those are also listed as emotionally abusive/controlling. While I understand the need for them, I don't know how I can take these precautions to avoid an affair without falling back into emotional abuse.

I am hoping through Plan B, both my husband and I have the space to reflect and heal from the deep wounds that have put a mountain between us.

Susie,

The extraordinary precautions are NOT emotionally abusing or controlling.

susie,

You keep having more trouble than needed because you consistently refuse to follow the advice in here.

Lets go back to square One:

Did you expose the affair to family and friends?

There is not a single EP that is "abusive/controlling."

Yes, I did and it really is over. The affair is not the issue at this point.

Accounting for every second of their time is controlling.

It most certainly is not. It protects you from his abusive behavior.

He can't be "controlled" if he willingly agrees to this step. If he won't, then you don't have a chance at recovery.

Making your marriage SO TRANSPARENT that he can't have another affair safeguards you and ensures recovery. This is how people in HEALTHY, SAFE marriages behave. They are not "controlled." If a spouse does not want to do this, then the obvious question would be WHAT ARE THEY HIDING?

Ok, I see what you are saying I guess because in reading about emotional abuse, they mention lack of trust and having to know every thing the other does as "controlling" and emotionally abusive, I jumped at that EP and the accounting for money as borderline abusive. I agree that to ME it is important as my trust has been broken but it would only be OK if he agreed to provide this info (which also means, it is the ONLY way, we can consider working on recovery). Right now he will not agree to anything that seems to him as "controlling" or lack of trust, whether I have a reasons to not trust him or not. Through this situation, I have learned a lot about myself. We have inadvertently hurt each other deeply way before the affair was up and running. I guess we are not ready for recovery, we have issues within ourselves that need to be fixed before anything else can be fixed. I am on Plan B. He is not staying at the house, we have not communicated in anyway. It is not because the affair is on going, the affair has truly ended. It is because we have lived in a cycle of emotional abuse that we need to get a grip of ourselves individually to climb out of the hole we fallen into, so that then we can work on saving the marriage and fixing it.

Susie,

I doubt the affair is over.
He told you earlier that it was, then you find him with the OW later.
Getting caught doesnt mean that it's over.

Have you read the book Surviving an Affair that you have?

The affair is over because SHE ended it. She sent him a txt msg and also to me and her husband. Telling him that she was done, to respect her decision to end the affair and not contact her again. YES, I read the book. I also know that while the affair was a big part of the downfall of this marriage, OTHER things need to change. You guys don't have a clue the things I have done, unknowingly but no less hurtful that have caused this situation to spiral the way it has. He has done hurtful things too, aside of the affair but I cannot change or control how he deals with this all. I can change and control what I do. I am getting myself healed, he can decide if he wants to join me when he is ready. THEN we can talk about EP's and POJA and Love busters and meeting emotional needs. If he never decides to join me, well, at least I know I can live with myself because as it is right now, I have not liked myself in years anyway, I have not been happy. I can't give to anyone else what I don't have, so I will learn to forgive myself, love myself and be happy with myself. I will pray that he chooses to do the same for himself and that we can meet somewhere in between and recover from it all.

Susie,

The OW husband probably was standing over her shoulder as she sent the text message.
That is why Extraordinary Precautions are needed.

You should still ask him to write the NC letter that was posted to you earlier and mail it.

You will need to move out of the area if you want to recover your marriage.

I caution against your approach of "working on yourself." What you need to do is follow the program in Surviving an Affair and spend 20 hours a week together.

Can you do that?

I can't tell you whether he was or not but what difference would it make if I stood over my husband's shoulder and made him write that letter, if he doesn't really mean it or want to write it? The OW and husband are working on moving (her husband told me, he has put in a request at work). She has since changed cellphone number. She is giving him an account of her time and the money spent. She is ready to work on her marriage, they are taking the EP's. What other proof do I need from her?

Jedi, I cannot do what you are advising because it takes 2 and he is not there yet. My approach to force things has not worked in my favor, he has met me with resistance every step. What I can do is work on my issues that I know I have, not for him, not for this marriage but for myself. I need to find my peace to be able to give that peace. When/if he chooses to join me, then I can ask he writes the NC letter and take all the other EP's, and work on spending those 20hrs together, not a minute before. That is why I finally have moved to Plan B, we were not seeing eye to eye. I am giving him space. He did not ask for it, I told him to go. I needed my space.

The affair has to end by one of them putting a stop, she did. The rest of the plan takes HIM to be receptive and agree to work on recovery until he can WILLINGLY meet me there it is useless to try to force it. I am not giving up on my marriage, just yet, though.

susie,

It sounds like OW husband is actually following Dr. Harley's program

Susie,

I fully support you being in Plan B.
I want to make sure you fully understand Plan B.
Have you written a Plan B letter?
Do you have an IM?

I have not written the letter. I am working on it. I want to be able to write a letter that truly comes from my heart and not from my resentment. Plan B is to break all contact with WS. And to protect myself from the negativity. I figured, it is a good time to work on finding my peace and working on forgive myself for the things I have done. I have a friend that is going to filter communication. I have even blocked him from my cell, so I will not see any msgs or calls from him. We need to figure out visitation with the kids.

I bought them the book and mailed it to them. So perhaps that is what they are doing. Her Husband texted me about all they are doing.

And this should tell you that he is not remotely serious about recovery. Not trusting your spouse is not a sign of abuse on YOUR PART,it is a sign of untrustworthiness on HIS PART. He is untrustworthy. So you should explain to him that you do not trust him because he is untrustworthy. Trsut is EARNED, it is not an entitlement for wayward spouses.

Calling YOU 'controlling" for not trusting an untrustworthy person is a form of gas lighting that we typically see from way wards.


I seriously doubt that. Your biggest problem is your marriage and going off to "fix" yourselves is a needless distraction.


What do you mean when you say you are in "Plan B?" You have an IM? Have you sent him a letter? What has been done?

Let me give you an example. In a healthy marriage when one spouse does not trust the other, the solution is to create an environment where trust can be achieved. In a sick, dysfunctional marriage, that complaint is met with accusations of "insecurity," etc, which makes the problem WORSE and destroys the marriage. That is what seems to have happened in your case. You seem to believe there is something wrong with YOU because you don't trust your husband. But you would trust him if he behaved in a trustworthy manner.

Trust is EARNED. It is not an entitlement.

[color:#000099][/color] Yes I have an IM. I am working on the letter. I want it to come from my heart and not filled with anger and resentment. I have changed the locks and I have blocked him from my cellphone.

Hopefully you understand it is not abusive at all now. A lack of trust is an emotional reaction to untrustworthy people who have not EARNED your trust. Anyone who says that is "abusive" is silly.


i would put those "issues" aside for now because you have bigger fish to fry. Working on your issues will be a distraction from your marriage problems.

Please use the format letter in Surviving an Affair and post it here so we can give you feedback.

I just got a call from my IM, my WH called her and asked her what he needed to do to be able to come back home and work on our marriage. I told her I'd get back to her about it.

#1 for me is, he eliminates his angry outbursts/ mind games and threats of "I'm leaving"
#2 write the NC letter?
#3 agree to follow the EP's?

What are your EP's?

First....don't get your hopes up.

Tell IM that he knows what he must do.
There must be no further contact with OW and he would need to agree to extraordinary precautions to protect the marriage and children from further harm.

If he is up to seriously attempting to return to rebuild, he must show it in word and deed.



Then, if it seems he is willing to do the difficult work needed, you and he ought to get guidance from the Surviving An Affair book on how to rebuild. He will need to write a no contact letter to OW and lots more.

Again, he may not be ready to recover the marriage at this juncture. Do not feel too disheartened if he switches gears yet again and isn't willing.

A firm, strong woman is most attractive. Whether he wins you back or blows it, that is a fact.

Block potential communication with the OW (change e-mail address, give me complete access to all social networking accounts; allow me to monitor voice messages and e-mail).

Account for time (I will call a few times a day and he should call me when he is on his way home, if there is traffic issues, etc. he should be willing to tell me where he is and who he is with at all times). I will be using a GPS phone tracker, so his phone must be on at all times.

Account for money (He should give me a copy of his work hours and let me see his pay stub, let me know what he has spent money on)

Spend leisure time together.

Avoid overnight separation.

Here are the EP's

From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.

These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.


Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.

I am not getting my hopes up yet. He wants to know what else, he needs to do since the affair has ended and there is No contact with OW. This is a fact as her husband has taken EP, including a text from her telling my husband that she is working on her marriage and to no contact her again. They are moving and she has changed cell phones, has a gps in her truck and is giving him 24 hr account of her whereabouts, etc. I figured the list from the book but was wondering if anything else.


Some of these things have already been done, like the revealing about the affair and exposing. And I figured, the rest of the list would be part of the conditions to allow him to come back along with the end of the threats and mind games... So basically, should I send her this list, so she can give it to him?

Yes, send your IM this list.

I sent the list in an email that she forwarded to him. He responded, that he is willing to do all of it, including moving if we HAVE to or if I want to. That he wants his family back. He told her he has an appointment for individual counseling on Wednesday and is also willing to go to marriage counseling, that I did not mention. I still didn't tell her to tell him he can come back.

Do you think I should let him come back? How do I know it is not a ploy to get back in the house?

You can meet up with him to test his sincerity. I am very concerned about the "counseling" offer because that typically causes enormous trouble. You never know what you will get with the average counselor and if one suggests something destructive [very common!] then you are doomed. So, I would strongly suggest you avoid counseling and stick to the principles of this program.

Even his individual counseling could be quite negative.

It often serves to focus on the wayward's wants and needs and not usually on doing the 'right thing'.

It is nice that he states that he is willing to meet the list of conditions you sent.

Individual counseling is usually the worst because counselors do not understand wayward fog and are prone to assist the wayward in achieving desires that are fueled by the fog. I have heard Dr Harley tell a BS that he is likely to end up divorced if his WW goes to counseling. They help spouses achieve independence in conflict with the marriage.

I would block individual counselling and make him pay for the MB course perhaps by selling something. (most people say the online course works well).

I'm concerned by his desire for IC because it means he is still very self focused. So if I were you I'd want to see him put his money where his mouth is.

Ok, so I will tell him to hold off on the counseling. I think he offered since I had suggested it after D-Day. I will ask to meet tonight while the kids are in dance class, to test the waters and tell him I don't think individual counseling is necessary, just yet. He does have a lot of baggage from his childhood, that he should have gotten counseling for like way before we ever met. I do believe IC was free, we don't have the funds right now but I'll see how we can come up with the funds to make MB phone counseling possible.

Leave his childhood in the past where it belongs and focus on his ADULT problems. Going to counseling to talk about ones childhood is an utter waste of time that will make your situation worse. Please abandon that line of thinking.

If you can swing it, I would get into the online program. It is pricey at $1000. However, you can do the whole program on your own with the help of the forum and the radio show.

I will tell him to forget I mentioned counseling. $1000 is a little steep for us right now (not that it is not worth it), so I will see which way we can do this. He agreed to meet me while the older kids are at dance class.

So, the meeting went well. He wrote the letter just like in the book. I will mail it tomorrow. He is cancelling counseling. He agreed to all the EP but tried to negotiate technical accountability and I told him it was not up to negotiation, he either accepted all my terms or not. He agreed, so he is back home. Kids are so happy to have him back. Now, where do I go from here? I think we need to work on Love busters first but guidance is really appreciated.

So how are you going to hold him to the technical accountability?

Can you sign up for the MB online program?

He agreed to allow me to track his phone and I am installing key logger on the computer he uses.

We cannot afford the MB right now but I am trying to see how I come up with some money for that or the counseling sessions. If not I guess, it'll have to be with y'alls help and the radio show and material Dr. Harley has online and his books.

Is it possible for the two of you to go on a vacation for a couple weeks?

I wish, money is tight, the best I might be able to do is a night or 2. baby is breastfed and never been away from me...

Did he change all his contact information?

Please remind me again. What methods did he use to carry on his affair?

Susie, I want to point out that he doesn't have to "agree" to any snooping that you do from here on out. You just do it, you don't tell him about it. If he is honestly wishing to recover, every time that you "catch" him doing what he said that he is doing, it will help you to slowly rebuild trust for his actions.

I would highly recommend that you purchase at least two VARs (voice activated recorders), and place them in areas where he would be prone to talk on the phone. His car? A bathroom?

If you can get away together.....DO!!!!!

Find someone who is able to care for the kids and GO.

Two night won't cut it.

BTW, though your child has never been away from you and is BF.......you and your H must put each other and saving the marital relationship OVER that! (I understand your instinct to not put your child through angst from not being with you to bf but know the saving of the marriage trumps your child being bereft for several days trying to make sense of mom not being there to nurse him/her).

This is a crucial time of YOU putting your H first over other things. He is saying he is willing to put YOU over the OW to save his family.

He doesn't know about these spy resources, right? Any spy resource he knows about is useless.

I am not so worried about the baby dealing with my absence, the thing is I don't have anyone to leave him with that will be willing to deal with a cranky baby that misses his momma. The older 2 can deal with it, and I have a long list of people I can leave them with. The baby, I don't think anyone will want to keep him for more than a few hours if he is cranky and angtsy. More than 2 nights would be financially impossible, too...


Only the phone tracker because the stupid phone company sends txts about once a month about it. No way to stop them and no idea when they will send it. He doesn't know about the computer and as soon as we get the second car, he will be taking the one I am using now, instead of his work truck, so I will put a VAR in that car.

We are changing his cellphone number saturday. I have access to his phone and fb and email accounts. He would only use a phone. A prepaid phone, after he confessed the 1st time. and then another prepaid when I took the 1st one, I have both which simply means he could buy another one but I know she changed her number. And her husband is also following EP. I am getting a copy of his work hours and access to his pay stub, so I will know how much his check is and what he spends, and where.

On a positive note, he got home within 45 mins of the end of his work day (which is just about the time it takes with traffic at that time of day). Only stopping at the grocery store by my request.

Prepaid phones...very convenient but very problematic when battling affairs.
My wife used at least one too.
I think WalMart should just label them 'Affair Phones" since they are often used for affairs and drug dealing

LOL, so true. I think it is safe to say THIS affair is over... Now, I have my work to do to affair proof the marriage and work on recovery.

Ok, so we have changed cellphone numbers and I have a keylogger and I also got a gps and text reader on my dh phone. The OW has also changed her number, her DH monitors it, too and I have it (her husband gave it to me and I gave him DH's just in case). Now, DH has agreed to my conditions, he has been home for 5 days. He comes home on time, helps around the house and with the kids, etc. He is here but kind of distant at the same time. He has started to give me a kiss and an "I love you" in the morning, when we talk on the phone, when he gets home and before bed but he is not really affectionate at all. If I am affectionate, he accepts my affection but doesn't really return much. He avoids most talk about the relationship. He says, "I want to work on recovering our marriage, I am just tired right now, can we talk about it another time?" Is this normal? At some point we kind of went through LB's and EN and I am doing all I can to eliminate all my LB's that he mentioned and the ones I know I am guilty of. Most of the EN are not been met at this point, for him or for me.

We have not spend much alone time as with all this turmoil, my oldest son has been sick and also has been doing badly in school. The baby must be confused and his routine is out the whack and the middle child is just clingy to daddy. I am hoping that since it's gonna be almost a week, the kids all get settled and we can start incorporating our 15-20 hours of UA. I asked him to come to the kids' dance lesson, so while they are in class we can take a walk together (even though we will have the baby with us). I have a babysitter for next Friday, maybe I can get one for Saturday and another one for Sunday. I know it is not much but I am trying to get some hours in here, until we can find a better system.

Also, what kind of activities count towards UA time? Can going grocery shopping or any shopping count? Organizing a party? Watching a movie or TV doesn't count right? During this time can we discuss LB and EN?

I would plan 4 - 4 hour dates out of the house. Exclude any TV or movies. Any time with children does not count, because it is not effective UA time. You should focus on meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs of affection, sexual fulfillment, conversation and recreational companionship.

It needs to be in 2 to 4 hour blocks and don't fall into the trap of "counting" bits and pieces of time when you pass in the kitchen or hallway at home or have a phone conversations. Many couples will do this as a pencil whipping exercise.

Some of our best UA time is spent shopping! So if he enjoys that, go for it. We usually go out for dinner and drive and then go shopping. Those are some of our best dates.

The idea is to DATE each other.

Yeah, I figured movies/tv would not count. What about any time at home while kids are asleep that is not used watching tv and is at least a 2 hour block? What about his behavior? is that normal? Is he going through withdrawal? I am trying to get the 4 DATES a week but it might be difficult to manage with the kids BUT I will do all in my power to do at least 2- 4hr DATES a week and then add another few 2/3 hour blocks on the other 5 days of the week.

UA time spent at home is lousy and largely ineffective, because couples new in recovery would rather be doing just about anything else. Also, the time after the kids are asleep is late when parents are exhausted and frumpy looking. It is very easy to get distracted by the phone, computer, waiting chores, etc. Dr Harley and Joyce don't even do their UA time at home for this reason.

very true.... putting baby to sleep is the difficult part, I will see what I can do and who I can get to help us out, I have at least 2 people I know will help out. that is why I said I can have 2 dates a week definitely... but I know it is not enough.

Have you seen this?
Critical Importance of Undivided Attention

I will read it. I know the UA time is critical, specially with our depleted Love banks. I am trying to figure out how we can get this time. It is not easy when you have 3 kids with one being a baby, the bank account is pretty much broke, too and no family close by to help. I do have at least one person willing to watch them once a week, for free. One that will also watch them once a week for some spending cash. I gotta see if any mom wants to exchange babysitting. If it was the older 2 kids only, it'd be easier to find the time but with the baby, it is a little more complicated BUT I will find a way. Right now we are spending all free time together with the kids and then when they go to bed, another hour or two either playing a game like scrabble or watching a show together (which I know does not count as UA) considering it's only been a week since he came back and I guess he might be going through a little withdrawal, it is time I use to just cuddle and give him some affection.

Ok, guys I need some advice/help/opinions. It has been 3 weeks since my WH's affair ended. I know that they have not contacted each other because the OW, has temporarily moved to another state and she has a new number and my WH does too. I managed to get her husband to change it at the same time I changed my WH's. I know because I called her husband to check how things were going. He said they are working on reconciling and that they were staying with her parents in another state until he could finalize his work transfer. He has a gps tracker on her vehicle and access to her new cellphone/internet social media, etc.

Here is the issue, my WH is coming home on time, accounting for money, I can track his whereabouts, etc. but he is completely cold with me. He will sometimes reply "I love you, too" after I say it. All I get is a little peck, no hugs no affection or attention at all. We can be in the same room, sitting next to each other and I reach to hold his hand and he just lets me hold it but it is just so cold. Every attempt at UA, he sabotages some how. He allows the kids to stay up later than their bed time. He always find something that needs to be taken care of, i.e. the car needs a repair, the yard needs cut, etc. I just don't know what to do. He is withdrawing the last bit of love units he has in his account. When I express my feelings (trying really hard to not fall into DJ), all he says is "well, I already told you how I feel and I just don't know what to do with my feelings (for her)". He says "I want to recover our marriage", but makes absolutely no effort what so ever and to make it worse sabotages mine. If I didn't talk to him, he wouldn't bother talking to me. He does spend a lot of time with the kids but they see how he treats me and my oldest son asked me the other day if we were going to move out of the country in the summer. When I told him Daddy and I were trying to make our marriage work, his reply was "YOU plan to stay with that JERK?" I told him that no matter what he should not speak that way of his father and he owed his father respect, he (and he is right to a certain degree) "respect is not something I owe him, he needs to earn it and he is really not getting any brownie points with me acting the way he is towards you". I only mention this so you can see how bad WH's attitude is, that even my child sees it. Should I give him more time or should I call it quits? Should I ask him to leave and not come back unless he decides to put forth an effort to save this marriage? It really is starting to affect me emotionally.

It sounds a whole lot like you are Plan A ing AFTER the A is over. Plan A is only used during an active affair and for no more than 3-4 weeks, which you have already surpassed. It is going to start affecting you emotionally and physically and you will also continue to deplete your own LB.

Withdrawal is going to happen but that does not mean your WH doesn't have to commit to recovery. Ending the A is an important step but equally important is committing to recovery. He is not doing that, he is avoiding recovery and everything that is required to pay you JC.

Are you doing the online program or counseling with the Harley's at all?

If he refuses to commit to recovery, then it is time for a Plan B.

If your H is suffering from withdrawal, he should see his doctor for ADs, starting with one with the fewest side effects. Dr. Harley recommends starting with Wellbutrin or its generic equivalent, because side effects are minimal. It doesn't affect sexual performance either.

Even though your H is in withdrawal, in order for recovery to take place, he needs to commit to eliminating his love busters and to meeting your emotional needs. This is essential! This is the "Fake it till you make it" part of recovery. Neither you nor he may FEEL like being meeting ENs, but for recovery to take place, it still has to be done, even if it's not fully genuine.

You both need to follow the policy of UA time, making time each week to meet each others emotional needs. If you let this part slide, recovery won't have much of a chance, because meeting the ENs takes time. Do whatever you have to do to make this part happen. The Harleys sometimes spent more on babysitting than they did on their mortgage when their children were young!

If he refuses to commit to recovery, I'd go into Plan B. A crippled marriage will be hell for you to live in.

That is what I figured, just wanted to make sure I was not over reacting or not giving him a chance to deal with withdrawal. I guess all I can do is ask him to please leave. I can't move out of the country yet, so he will have to support us 100% until he decides to either commit or allow me to move the kids.

Hi Susie,

How are you doing?

Is your H still avoiding recovery?

Did he get on ADs?

Did you go to Plan B?

Hey, Thanks for asking. Things have slowly gotten better, not where they should be but he is making an effort, every day he improves a little. He has an appointment with his doctor on Tuesday, told him to ask about ADs. He has no ao's, he calls to report his whereabouts, if he is running late, if he has to work late, etc. Our baby turned 1 last Sunday, we had a party at the playground for him, my H had a mini anxiety attack a little before it was time to go to the playground. He was embarrassed to have to face people I had told about his affair. I told him that first of all, not everyone there knew and the ones that knew, also have known him for a long time and they know he is a good man that made a huge mistake but was strong enough to recognize and work on fixing his mistake to save his marriage and family. I told him to request AD's from his doctor.

I saw your post on another thread regarding your WH still being unhappy about exposure and that's a bit of a red flag. Dr Harley has said a WH should be on bended knee and hat in hand. And I see here that you have posted that your WH has been cold to you and not really wanting to spend time with you. That is another red flag.

How many UA hours a week away from your children are you getting? How is he doing the UA time?

Did you ever end up setting up a VAR in his car?

He mostly has said he doesn't understand why the kids needed to know. He has not confronted me about it or made any angry comments about it. I read a facebook pm from a friend of his who I exposed to and my H just replied that he wished I had not exposed to everyone but that it is done and he was back home and trying to work out our marriage and he appreciated the support and prayers from his friends and was glad to see no one was acting judgemental.

We are spending about 10hrs, it's been hard because the babysitting situation and the oldest and youngest are sick, we've had car issues, so he has been working on the cars on the little free time we have.

I do have a var but he does not use the car to get to the jobsites, he goes to his boss's shop and takes the work van to the jobsites BUT he has been home on time and even taken off of work early to come spend time with me (even though the baby is usually with us at those times). No he is not all over romantic and on his knees hat in hand. He has been more willing the last week or so, since our baby's birthday when he had a breakdown because he was embarrassed to have to face people who knew about the affair. He figured he'd look like the a**hole. When he saw no one batted an eye at the party, he came home more relaxed and happy.

Susie,

A couple observations:

First, all social media should be eliminated.
Second, you need to spend about 20 hours a week together. 10 hours a week may not lead you to recovery and if you absolutely cannot spend the 20 hours a week together then I suggest you write to Dr. Harley for guidance. Divorce may be an option.

We both use social media. We have each others acct passwords. I might be wrong or setting myself up but I cannot ask him to close his social media when I am active on mine. We sat and he eliminated/blocked everyone I did not agree he had as friends and he did. We changed his privacy settings, made him unsearchable and even change his name and profile pic to something general. He has a few friends and his family.

He is not refusing to spend the time together and YES I know it should be around 20hrs, we are doing what we can with what we have available in terms of child care. I don't see how Divorce would be necessary or a better option because we have not found suitable childcare, that we can afford, for our children. We have things that need to be taken care of and settled so we can have the chance of spending more time together. There has been a real improvement in the amount of time we spend together compared to pre affair. Also, it has only been about a month since all contact ended and every week we have added time, he knows we need more time and is willing to spend the time, we are doing the best we can with the time we do have. We are trying to add another an hour or 2 hours each week, until we can build it up to at least the 15.

Susie,

ALL conditions that led to the affair should be cut off and closed.

People survived for a little while before FB.

LTL

Susie,

You need to eliminate the Facebook and contact Dr. Harley as I suggested and tell him you are unable to spend 20 hours of UA time together.

I can only give you advise on his program and I don't know what to tell you if there is no UA time.

I've seen experienced posters like Melodylane post that UA time is absolutely essential so your customized recovery plan may fail.

You need to date each other as though you were single parents dating someone new.
You would find a way to meet with someone else watching your kids.

It is THAT crucial that you do so.


When there is a will there is a way.

I understand that the UA time is essential, neither him nor I are against it or unwilling, we are working on building up the time. If I was a single parent I would be living close to my family and therefore the child care situation would be non existent. Our reality is, we do not have very many childcare options or a lot of extra funds right now. In about a month funds will be a little less tight and we can hire a babysitter to give us more hours. I appreciate the advise but I am not going to jump and decide divorce because I don't have child care for my kids to go spend 20 hrs a week with my husband. Do we need to spend UA time? Most certainly. Are we making an effort to overcome the obstacles to spend that time together? Yes, we are, even 10hrs can be hard some weeks but we are doing all we can to have that time and add on to it in the coming weeks.

Are you willing to give up Facebook for your marriage?
Will you write to Dr. Harley?

Please read this. False Recovery-Need Voices of Experience

You do realize that a monkey could unblock someone in about 1 second, right? Having a Facebook account means your husband can look up anyone and message anyone.

You are just setting yourself up for failure and that is fine as long as you are willing to accept the consequences. Are you willing and prepared to accept another affair or a resumption of the old affair? Is Facebook worth it to you? If Facebook is worth going through all this over again, then that is fine. Just don't get upset when he has another affair.

I understand some people love Facebook MORE than their marriages and are willing to sacrifice their marriage for Facebook. That is their right and it sounds like you are willing to make that sacrifice.


It takes 20 hours to create romantic love and 15 hours to MAINTAIN. An essential element of recovery is creating a romantic marriage that is better than before. As it is now, you are living in a crippled version of the pre-affair marriage and your husband is MORE susceptible to an affair than he was before.

But this your choice. If you are not interested in recovery and are willing to go through all this again, it your free will to make that choice.

If you decide to recover your marriage, let us know and we can help!

Susie's first post here:

here

here

Here is the checklist from SAA. I would emphasize that this is not the cafeteria plan where you cherry pick selections. This is a comprehensive plan that has to be followed in its entirety if you want it to WORK.

If you refuse to follow the program, you must be prepared for the consequences. I have been on this forum for 13 years and I can tell you where you are headed and it is not going to be pretty. You just have to accept that this will be the consequence of your corner cutting.

From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.

These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.


Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse.

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.

I am willing to give up individual fb accounts and make a joint account. I ask him about it earlier and he said, he was fine with it cause he doesn't even go on very much anyway. (and I have a keylogger on his computer and installed iKeymonitor on his phone) I know what he does on his phone and computer (that is how I saw the FB message). I have not found any suspicious conversation with the VAR, mostly him listening to the radio or ironically on the phone with me. We are spending ALL the free time together just not UA for 20hrs a week. We have spent about 10hrs a week in the past couple weeks because that is what we have been able to get with the childcare situation and the kids being sick. We spend at least 2hrs every night after the kids are in bed but it is at home, so it doesn't count as UA. Thanks BH, I have read that threat before. He has changed for the better (still not perfect but I have seen him make the effort to follow all my conditions), he is accountable for his time, he calls if he is running late and he does not isolate himself to a different room when we are home. We do spend a lot of time together as a family. I have been driving him to and from work for a week, we go to the kids activities together. We both got tested for STDs. We are making an effort and we are willing to spend the time but what are we suppose to do when we ask someone to babysit (even paid) and they say yes and then cancel with short notice? Or if the babysitter won't babysit the sick kids cause she doesn't want to get sick herself? Well, we put the kids to bed and spend that time together BUT at home, again which doesn't count as UA, so I have not counted that time at all.

Like I said, when you place Facebook BEFORE your marriage, the marriage is unlikely to last. As long as you are willing to accept the consequences. Surely you understand that he can do the same things on a JOINT FB account that he can on an individual account? He can STILL look up the OW, message her and do anything he was able to do on an individual account. He will be perpetually triggered because this is one of the places his affair took place.


Just as long as you accept and understand that 10 hours won't do the trick. 10 hours wouldn't sustain my marriage and we are in love and are YEARS into recovery. It certainly won't turn your marriage into a romantic, passionate marriage. As long as you are prepared to accept failure then that is fine.

I just want you to understand that your half measures will avail you nothing.

Like Dr. Harley said [and I would concur after seeing so many failure in my 13 years on this board]:

Cutting corners only cuts any chance of recovery. Do you accept that consequence?

susie, I really do want you to make it and hate to see you wasting your time on fruitless endeavors. All that needs to happen here is that your husband needs to eliminate his Facebook page and stay off Facebook. There is no reason you need to delete yours too. The EP's address HIS social networking and eliminating the environment that made it possible for his affair to happen. While its not ideal for you to have a FB page, the only one that needs to delete it, is HIM.

And secondly, start taking this UA time seriously. 10 hours will avail you nothing. I understand you can't go out when your kids are sick, but you need to have a solid plan in place for when they are not sick. Down load this UA worksheet, line up babysitters, and get this done RIGHT. You are just spinning your wheels and it is painful to watch. I know you are serious about saving your marriage, but you have to get serious about DOING THE NECESSARY STEPS to accomplish that goal.

Half measures will avail you nothing.

Now, go print this out and sit down with your husband and start planning your dates. UA worksheet

I understand that and we are working towards at least 15hrs but will keep pushing for the 20hrs. What am I supposed to do with my kids? Leave them home alone so I can spend 20hrs with my husband? What bill should I not pay so I can pay for a babysitter 5 days a week?

I will print it. We can plan on making the time, as long as we have reliable childcare which we don't.

Susie,

I really don't understand why you persist in retaining social media. Willing to keep a joint account?

I get that you are likely resistant as his actions have caused all this and resent giving up what you like, but this isn't going to blow over and you need to be more serious about it. EVERY Facebook log-on is a trigger.

You guy are putting the risk of social media above recovery, that really is a red flag about how this is heading into false recovery.

You need to figure it out. Stay on the problem until you find a solution. Don't just sit back and say you can't do it. Find a way to do it.

"Working towards" will avail you nothing. if you want your husband to be in love with you, and vice versa, you need to find a way to be together 20 hours. It is in your best interest to figure it out.

Don't stop until you have found reliable childcare. You can't just give up so easily. We have people here with SEVEN kids on limited incomes who make this happen. You need to make it happen.

Susie, will he delete his Facebook account? Is that the issue?

He said he would if I wanted him to. He asked if he could add his cousins and aunt to mine and a couple of guy friends, so they could still see pics of the kids and he could keep up with them. He has not refused. I just don't want to make him delete it to later find out he opened another cause he really didn't want to delete it... kind of like with the affair phones. he gave me the 1st to make me happy then went and bought a 2nd one. He could do the same with fb. He has logged onto fb 5 times in the past month. I kind of feel if I make him delete it, I risk more than knowing his fb acct password.

And working towards building the time means we are looking for ways to free up some money to afford babysitter but it requires work for example our cars need to be in working conditions so we can free up money that we've had to spend unexpectedly fixing a broken car. I am also looking for a baby to watch during the day to make some cash that in turn would be to pay for someone to babysit mine. But it takes a little time to get there. I am not saying 10hrs will have to do. I am saying that is ALL we've been able to get while figuring childcare and dealing with illness. I think 10hrs is a great improvement from the 0 hours we were spending on UA. And when we make it to 15hrs it will be another step forward. Will it be all we need? NO but that is my whole point, we are not giving up, we are looking for ways to make it possible. It is not like we are sitting here figuring out ways to NOT spend 20hrs together.

That is great! Have him delete it today. You don't avoid EPs because they might do it anyway. If they "do it anyway" then you separate from him. He has to follow the EPs if this is to work. If he starts up a new one, that would be a violation of EPs.


Just keep focusing on that because as long as you are not getting 20 hours, your marriage won't recover. This program does not work without this step. When Dr Harley was in private practice, he refused to counsel people who wouldn't do this step because he said "my program won't work without this step." It is your marriage to lose, but if I were you, I would be trying harder to complete this step.

If he doesn't want to take extraordinary precautions to protect you from another affair, then you have bigger problems here. We don't CARE if he doesn't want to delete it.

Oh dear. When posters can't be bothered to take the step of closing FB or changing phone numbers or email addresses, that's a HUGE red flag that the harder stuff isn't going to happen.

Not to mention, those types of loopholes being left open tend to lead to a persistently foggy WS.

How about moving close to your family? That sounds like it could be a very good option: It gets you away from OW and triggers and also gives you babysitters so that you can get your UA time in. Win/win!

I just read thru the entire thread again and listened to most of your radio call....and I hear Dr Harley suggested the same thing - he was worried your H would be persistently depressed being triggered in that area and that a move would be necessary in order to recover.

Plus you would have your family to help you with your kids in order to get the UA time...

One other thing stood out to me while reading through your thread. You persistently told posters that the affair was OVER, when it was not. That was a clear THEME here.

I would not assume because the OW's BH is watching from his end that it is over. For sure it may make things very difficult but you still need to be watching. I understand he uses a van once he gets to the worksite but I would still set up the VAR in his car and be watching like a hawk.

Most of all, I would start making plans to move.