Hello,
I am looking for the way ahead to finally fix our marriage.
I do not want to shy away from the truth and my reality so please help me as I try now to start this journey through Marriage Builders.

Here is our Story...
My wife and I have been married for 12 years, going on 13 years and have 4 beautiful girls. Our marriage has been very rocky due to my selfish behavior. I have cheated on my wife once early in our marriage, and have continually lied to her about things here and there. The affair is and has been final for years.
A couple of years back, I involved myself in the theft of some money and moved my family to another state. The move was not because of the money, but I did change job locations on a false pretense for "bigger pay". Once we moved to the new location the truth of the money situation came out, and my wife found out. She was and is devastated over the continual lies and manipulation I have shown her. I could have went to jail for this, but did not. My wife stuck by me.

Since the money thing, I have continued to lie to her about the smallest situations and largest situations without regard to her feelings. I know I love this woman and love my girls very much. I do want nothing more than to make things right.

There are many other lies and my wife has continually taken me back time after time. I would play the role to keep the peace, but still telling lies about things. I could see that it was killing her, but looking back, I didn't care at the time.

Fast forward to now and we are still fighting. She is to the point where she doesn't know if she wants us anymore and does lash out with words that are very degrading. I honestly do not blame her because I know I am the cause of her hurt. She found MB and is now reading a lot of the Discussions on here.

This above doesn't cover all that I have done, but I assume you get the problem, lying, deceit, manipulation etc...

What my question is, what should I be doing to show her that I am serious? I am fully devoted to her and this program, but she feels like it is too late. I have given her passwords, put a tracker on my phone so she knows where I am and again trying to be transparent as possible though I lack in judgment at times. I am finally facing my reality and it is smacking me in the face.

I have not taken restoring our marriage seriously until now, but I feel it might be too late. She feels that I have said all this before (and I have) so she doesn't think I am serious nor care about her feelings at all.


Can anyone help or shed light into this situation?

Thank you

Has your wife posted here?

Does your wife have access to all your financial accounts?

What precautions have you given your wife?

What does your wife say she needs to feel safe in your marriage?

Thanks for your reply.

I do not believe she has posted on here.

She does and has had all means of Financial accounts to ensure the money is where it should be.

Precautions have included tracking app on phone (which we found out yesterday that there are some issues with it). Printing off surveys for MB for us to do them together and identify true concerns from my end. I have not communicated with her in the past in full truthfulness with the issues I have in our marriage. Before I only tried to smooth things over in the past. I do not want it to seem that I am asking her to fix my problems, but I feel if we identify them, it will give me a list to work on.

The main issue is the deception. She states that all of the good things I do are washed away do to lies. I have lied over and over again and she states that she shouldn't have to live like this checking and worrying about where I am or what I am doing.

I agree to this whole heartily, but for us to reconcile trust has to be established. That trust I feel can be established by actions on my end to focus on the hurt that I have caused her for years.

I hope that answers your questions and again, thanks.

Trust will be established, not by focusing on past hurts, but by making your life so transparent that it would be impossible to lie. For example, if you were together 24/7, you wouldn't be able to hide anything. If you are going to stay together, I would focus on creating that kind of lifestyle.

Have you read about the different types of liars? What would you say motivates you to lie?

Any tracking app that you know about is obviously worthless. Even the dumbest person knows how to get around that.

Ask yourself his question - Under what conditions would you trust yourself? You know about your own lies, so you know how transparent you are going to have to be to make further lying impossible. Without that degree of transparency, your wife would be foolish to trust you. You have proven yourself criminally untrustworthy. It is going to take an extraordinary effort on your part to turn that around. You could start by making amends to those you have wronged. As long as you use lies to secure gain for yourself when dealing with others, your wife has no reason to believe that you won't do the same with her.

All,

Thanks for your insight. I will look at the suggested topics you have suggested.

I do believe the motives to lie is not facing reality. In the past, I have thought that if I "act" good for awhile, then all of this would go away. Yes it sounds stupid, but I believe ignorant would be a better word.

Now I have come to grips with what I have done and the hurt I have caused the people I love the most. I want to focus my efforts to others and realize that this is a process that can and will be established over time. It is insight like MB provides that shows me just how wrong I have been and lay out the way ahead.

I just hope that it is not too late as my wife is making it seem. I do not want to force her into this, but it seems like she wavers day to day, situation to situation. Again, I do not blame her at all, I am taking full responsibility for all of this.

I would like some more perspectives on this. The more angles, the better

Thank you in advance.

We all strive to have the same perspective here: Dr. Harley's.

Brainhurts, Melodylane and MrEureka are three of the best as far as telling you what Dr. Harley would say. I'd trust their advice to you if I were you.

It's all Dr H's advice as per the forum rules.

As others have said: transparency and encourage her to snoop or track you in ways you aren't aware of. Perhaps offer to be polygraphed at any point in the future she needs you to be?

Just show there's nothing you won't do.

The perspective and angle we give here is Dr. Harely's. This is not an opinion blog.

I'd suggest emailing Dr Harley and asking him your questions for him to answer you on his radio show.

Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.

- an alcoholic is most motivated to stop after hist last drink, having a hangover. As soon as the results of your actions evaporate and fade away, your motivation to become this new person will dwindle and the seduction of a little white lie for the good of yourself will grow strong.
- How do you feel if your children lie to you? If they make mistakes or do something wrong, would you not rather want them to come to you and trust you? How do you think your actions make your wife feel? Try to feel how you would feel if it was the other way around.
- You can only change if YOU choose to. I used to throw in little white lies here and there, but decided to nevere lie to my husband and have since stopped in other situations too. So now, if I do something that I do not want my husband to know, I run to him rightaway and tell him then and there, so that I don't even have the chance to contemplate to hide it. If you get into the habit to be brutally honest and transparant, it will be easier and easier. Telling the truth will make life easier. You don't have to cover up for yourself and you can't be found out.
- most lies are useless anyway. If they are little lies, they are usually not worth the trouble. If they are big lies, you should solve the underlying problem, because that will come back to haunt you.
- Only cowards lie. If you are strong and courageous, what do you have to fear?
- your wife may or may not want to reconcile. But you will be a better person if you take the high road in the future regardless.
- People lie, because the truth does not seem good enough. But don't forget, that we compare our own truth to the facade of the lives of others. We know what is really going on in our own lives, but realize, that others have poblems too and if w would all tell the truth about our lives we would come to see that we are not so different after all.
- The only way to convince your wife that you are a whole new person is to become this person and walk the walk. Regardless if she takes you back. Trust comes on foot, but goes on horseback as they say around here.

I have emailed Joyce.

Thank you for your post. I guess the problem is that I have manipulated so much that it seems that she cannot believe a word I say or things that I do now are to cover up what I am truly doing. I again, do not blame her and understand why this is.

Here is your show.
Radio Clip of 1234qwer's show
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4

Hello,

I would like to send an update on my current marriage situation. I was live on the show for the 10th of November 2014 and since receiving the "Love Busters" book we have since ordered the Romantic Love Workbook.

Here is the update and my questions will follow.

We have started the workbook with both agreeing that we need a change. We signed the agreement to stop Love Busters and deposit love units into each other's love bank. We have filled out portions of the book and I have asked my wife what 2 things she needed me to change. But the problem is that it doesn't seem like we are making any progress. My wife recently posted on the Forum (which I have not read), but she explained to me she struggles with deciding to stay or go.

We have been up and down each day it seems in the security of our marriage. My biggest problem was not telling her the truth and living a life of independent behavior which created selfishness and did not facilitate any type of recovery from the problems I created in our marriage. I have placed extraordinary precautions in my life and communicating my schedule with her to give just compensation as she asked.

I have not been perfect through trying to live the MB principles. I still struggle with certain things that she has asked to correct, These include to give space when conversations turn into arguments. I do not raise my voice at her nor put her down, but I try to explain why the problem is not what she thinks it is. I realize that I caused the problems and her "on edge" personality. This leads to over exaggerated words on my part that hurts her feelings. Gas lighting she has expressed as a big issue also.

My questions:

1. How do I overcome or negotiate the continued accusation of lies and deceit? Example: We will be doing well for a couple of days then she will accuse me about a situation or something that has come up. I will tell her the truth about it, but she will say that I am not telling her the truth. Then our "good" days will disappear with "its not worth it" etc..it will then be shown that I was telling the truth. This has happened since my devotion to the program.
(I do agree that I have shown myself dishonest in the past and I am trying so hard to show her by my continued truthfulness that I am serious about stopping my behavior).

.2. She has asked me to post on the MB forum in which I did initially. She has continued to ask to post on the forum, but I believe that if we have the guidance not only from the radio show, but also the workbook (which we have not committed to fully) those, not the forum would be our first start.
After reading Love Busters I am torn in regards to posting on the forum. I am not overly enthusiastic because again we have good products for our use and I feel we should start the program before we look for answers and struggles that couples have faced in the program.

Is this wrong of me to take this approach?

3. If she has stated that she is overly stressed out with me being in the same house as her and also feels that we have not made any progress, should I think about fulfilling this request? I struggle with it because I believe it is good when it is good and get the same feelings from her, but do want to make her happy. She states she wants it to work and says she will try, but then later she struggles with wanting me to leave.

Again should I leave or stay?

I hope to hear from you all soon. Insights are much appreciated.

Welcome back, 1234.

I only have limited time right now to spend on this post, but I will keep an eye on your thread, and give fuller answers later today if I have time. It's been very slow on the board this week, but I'm sure other posters will also post to you soon.

I'll not comment on the bulk of your post, but answer the questions for now:

1. "1. How do I overcome or negotiate the continued accusation of lies and deceit?"

This one is common sense, really. You took a long time to reach the stage where your wife does not know whether to believe you - or perhaps she knows better than to ever believe you - and it will take some time for you to demonstrate successfully that you never lie to her.

The way to overcome the accusation, which as far as I can see in an entirely reasonable one for her to make, is for you to consistently show your self to be telling the truth.

2. "After reading Love Busters I am torn in regards to posting on the forum. I am not overly enthusiastic because again we have good products for our use and I feel we should start the program before we look for answers and struggles that couples have faced in the program.

Is this wrong of me to take this approach?"

I don't think the question should be whether you are wrong, but whether you are helping your marriage, or hindering it, by taking that approach. If your goal is to win your wife back to the marriage, you need to do things that you think she wants you to do (and avoid doing things that she does not want you to do.)

What do you think she wants you to do?

Dr Harley is not in favour of spouses making reluctant agreements to anything, including doing the MB programme (and you could see posting on the forum as part of "doing the MB programme"). If a spouse makes a reluctant agreement, he will not do the task well, or perhaps might not do it at all, and if he does it, he might well feel resentful, and that will harm the marriage. Therefore, don't post here if you resent doing so and feel pressurised into doing so.

However, you could do a couple of things: first, try posting on a temporary basis, to see whether doing so helps or hinders you in your goal of changing your behaviour, negotiating and working through conflicts, avoiding love busters etc. You could try it for, say, a month. In that time, you would need to update your thread regularly, and ask questions, otherwise the thread will die and you will probably feel justified in saying that it did not help you.

Second, you could try exploring your wife's perspective further, to see why she feels your posting would be beneficial, and how much posting she would like to see. You would present your perspective to her at the same time. The goal would be to reach an enthusiastic agreement on whether to post, or not.

You have been "not posting" for 20 years, and it seems that your marriage is not really improving. I would think that keeping the status quo of not posting is not the best idea. In your shoes, I would give posting a try on a temporary basis.

If you are going to do that, though, it needs to be done with the best intentions - of really giving posting a fair chance.

3. "Again should I leave or stay?"

I recommend you read the thread of Remark (in this forum), to whom we have been posting for a while. He faces similar issues of a long marriage in which he has destroyed his wife's confidence in him, and has driven her into a state of withdrawal. Remark and his wife have been on the MB radio show, so make sure you listen to the clips that are posted on his thread. Remark's wife is also asking him to leave, which he does not want to do. Read his thread - not so much to see our advice, which is amateur, but to see Dr Harley's, which is given to Remark on a regular basis, up to and including this week.

One more thing: if you can encourage your wife to enrol in the online course, you'd make much more progress than you are making now. This is another issue that Remark has dealt with (unsuccessfully so far), on his thread.

One more thing for now:

You'll get the most from this forum if you make your post less about making life more tolerable for you, and more about what you can do to overcome your wife's complaints about the marriage, and win her back.

Your first question was really a complaint about the fact that your wife isn't treating you well.

It is true that in an MB marriage, a spouse would not make accusations against the other spouse - these are disrespectful judgements. However, my knowledge of what Dr Harley advises men in your situation - who have pushed their marriage into the ditch, over many years, suggests that those men should not focus AT ALL on what their wives are doing wrong, but micro-manage their own behaviour until all love busters are eliminated. When that is done, you will be able to make love bank deposits, and when you have made enough of those, your wife will not want to make disrespectful judgements of you - and if she does, you can respectfully ask her to stop.

You can't ask her to stop right now - you'll only alienate her further. So, don't do that at home, and don't post here to complain about her, either.

Your second question was also about your own comfort level, and in a way, so was your third. There was really nothing in your post about showing your wife extraordinary care and attention - but that needs to be at the forefront of your mind.

Thank you for your response.

It is very clear to me that there are many things that I need to change. I will be reading "Remarks" posts tonight to gain further knowledge into Dr. H's insight.
Originally I was scheduled to appear on the MB show this Thursday, but due to a work conflict I believe I will be on the show this Friday.

There were many things in your two responses that I would like to address:

First is posting. She has asked me to post and about posting many times and I admit that I have not posted as she has asked. So I see that it is important to her and I want nothing more than for her to be happy, my posting should continue. I will make sure that I stay at it.
I will ask her tonight on how much posting she would like see and why.

Second are my reactions to her. There are a lot of my comfort level coming out through my words. In the midst of a argument, I feel like there are many DJ going on but I can see that if I am talking about my comfort level I am definetly not having her falling in love with me.

There is nothing I want more than to make her happy and I believe that having the Workbook gives us a tremondous opportunity to stop Love Bank withdrawls.

Would you all recommend (I say starting like I started it, but didnt) starting the Workbook from Page 1? What if this cannot be accomplished?

I agree that we should do the online course and I hope that she would like to complete this with me.

I will be posting more frequently

You know what, qwer? I think you're full of bull. You posted here with a "poor me - I 'm trying so hard" attitude LAST THURSDAY, and you haven't even bothered coming back to respond to your replies. You managed to soft-soap me on a good day, and now today, having read your wife's desperate posts, you have come back here with weasel promises and apparent agreement with every word I say, just to keep your wife quiet for a few more days.

I dislike intensely having been manipulated into saying that your wife love busts you with her "unfounded accusations", only to find out that you continue to lie to her about Internet usage, and who knows what else.

I think your wife should write to Dr Harley before you get on the radio show, telling him what you do to distress her so much. I think Dr Harley will see right through you, and will tell her to give you your marching orders. You will then stir yourself to look busy saving your marriage.

I predict that any effort you make will last about 48 hours, before it dies.

Hello,

I have not read any of my wife's post at all nor do I have any intentions of reading.

I am here for advice with what I posted and agreeing as I need to change my behavior to deposit love units.

I fully admit to not following up on things as I believe this is one of the biggest love busters for my wife. I do need to be absolutely consistent in what we discuss.

The issue I feel is that I do say things that want to please in the moment to attempt (which is wrong) to smooth the argument.
I do in the moment agree to what she is saying in argument format.

I am asking for advice and insight from you all. I will not treat this forum as a way I fully admit to doing in the past.

I have always encouraged my wife talking to Dr. Harley and Joyce but it may seem like a lost cause at this point (as I have caused this).

I am going to start reading Remarks post and along with this thread to establish new habits that builds love in my marriage.

Again, I appreciate your response

All,

I used my wife and I's home computer to post and she was logged into her account. I let her know about this, and wanted to let everyone know that the above post is (1234qwer) post.

Okay, you have not actually read her posts, but my point was that the only thing that dragged you back here was the knowledge that she had come here, once again on the verge of walking out on you. You know that she did that, because she communicated it to you in some way, even though you did not read the posts.

Don't bother defending yourself against that charge. The evidence of how keen you were to post shows in the way that you posted, and what you said.

In any case, the issue in your marriage is not about posting. The issue is that you have never lifted a finger to address seriously your wife's unhappiness with you. You've driven her into depression and withdrawal, and you're still doing it. You don't really believe that she'll leave you, and so, with the complacency that this belief gives you, you think it is quite acceptable to continue making her unhappy, and not caring about how she feels.

Thank you for your reply.

You are correct in saying she is on the verge of walking out. Posting is an issue to her but I do agree that it only one of many but surely not the only issue.

In the past, I told her that I didn't believe she would walk out on me and that I felt I could do whatever I wanted. But this is definitely not the case any longer.
I see and feel the hurt I caused her and more than ever do I want to make her happy.

The problem that continues to come up is of following through on things that are said. Extraordinary precautions were put into place momentarily but not kept. I do understand why this issue is not fixed because I have chosen not to fix it. That is why my wife has been pushed this far, because I have pushed her to a place where she feels she has no other option.

I am actively reading "Remarks" post and on pg. 28 as of last night. Notes on Dr. Harley's responses and from the others with MB wisdom have been taken. As I continue to read, I believe I can gain more and more knowledge and wisdom to apply to my situation.

Look forward to posting and answering any questions that are posed to fully change my behavior.

Tell me why you don't follow through on your commitments.

This is all such utter crap. You came here seven months ago saying the same and here you still are saying you are now serious...THIS time.


I don't. Your wife has to get to the point of being depressed, exhausted and ready to leave before you ever do anything...rinse and repeat. You are lazy and uncaring. A separation from your uncaring behavior would do her a world of good IMO.

Why do I not follow up on my commitments?

I have been a person that tries to smooth things over at the time to please my wife. The problem is there has not been any actions steps to correct the behavior to create new habits. At the time, I have the intentions to do it, but again never follow through because things seem to be going well for a couple of days.
This may not answer your question to the extent you are looking for but I want nothing more than to have current fixes in place without having a slip up.

Black Raven,

I understand why you gave me the rolling of eyes. I also understand why you would say that she needs to separate.

As I have stated I am here to take this seriously as I should have from the beginning and am regretful for all of the time that I wasted not doing it.

There have been some things that she has asked for that have been turned over to her control. All of the financial cards that we own, she tracks and monitors. A company credit card, she gets all of the emails when the card is due with amounts etc.. My smart phone usage I used for inappropriate things and I have a flip phone now without any data plan attached to it. My email accounts she has access to and she has all of the username and passwords to them. When I go anywhere outside of the house, I send her a text or phone call to let her know I arrived at my destination and when I leave. (I have slipped on this a couple of times). At my work office that I share, she has the phone number there to ensure I am in the place I said I am.

I am stating these to ask does this put all the work on her? Please do not misunderstand me as trying to "prove" my side here. I want to put in the work to fix the things (above) as she asked to establish new habits. As I read in Remarks post, the couple of times of slippage can never happen. It must be 100% not 98.7 percent or 99.5% and I am fully on board with the anticipation of Dr. Harley's guidance on Friday.
I have a work commitment that I thought was on Wednesday but it is on Thursday. I emailed Joyce to let her know the situation and I am now pushed to Friday. All of the emails between Joyce and I were forwarded to my wife.

I want to answer as much questions as possible to gain insight to apply to my marriage and stop my behavior.

Thank you for owning up to this.

How is this changing today? What have you done today that was an improvement on what you did yesterday?

i am changing this by taking a polygraph yesterday to clear up suspected lies that my wife has expressed hurt over. The results of the polygraph hopefully will be received by my wife tomorrow.

Sigh.

Tell us why you lied.

Today my polygraph came back and I failed all of the questions.
I lied to protect my actions. I don�t want to make her unhappy by going into details of the affair, so I try to skirt the issue and take shortcuts and not call it for what it is. She gave me chances to do it, but this is just like many other instances in our marriage where the repercussions are so much worst and I havent learned my lesson.
There is not any logical reason why I lied and I realize that instead of protecting my family especially my wife's feelings I have pushed her over the edge.
I talked to the polygrapher and he said some of the questions that were asked also could have meant there was numerous times with the same lady etc that my spouse didnt not know about. He did say at the end of the conversation, that he doesnt know what my situation is, but said if there is something you need to tell your wife you should.
I have lied to my wife so much that I cannot even remember what I told her and didnt tell her. I went into the polygrpah with these other instances thinking I could push them away and everything will come back positive. I know as stupid and crazy as that sounds it is my true thought process.
After my results, I emailed her and told her the absolute truth with the different instances with my affair that I thought she didnt know about. My wife explained to me that she did know and obviously she wants me out.
I agreed to leave, but would like to know what the next step is. It is a sad life I have created for my family especially my wife. My wife is left to pick up the pieces with our girls and our church etc� I did not want this to happen at all in our marriage but it is a reality. I have destructive ways and want to change them so bad!!!!!
My wife states that she now knows that there were numerous affairs because of these reults, but there was and is not. There was one affair which I know one is enough, but I am not lying. I also understand that it is her perspective that matters and by being decietful it has left her no other choice.
While I was on the show today, my wife called me and I could not answer. I did not see the text messages she sent telling me that I failed the test till after the show.
Can anyone help and give me what the next step is. I have already emailed the Harleys confessing my failed test also.
Now that the truth is out, do you recommend going back and taking another test to show and prove that it is the truth?
Dr. Harley while on the phone befor e the show said that I may need to take test every 3 months to show that I am telling the truth to win back her love and trust. I know this though was a devestating blow that might have ended it. I sure hope not.

As a next step I suggest you follow The law of holes. Someone gave me very similar advice here at some point and it turned out to be very good advice.

I suppose there is some slim chance that it is "true" that there was "only one affair." But it's 100% certain that this is not the full truth. Your words here make it completely obvious that even now, you are still holding back.

I suggest you get a copy of Dr. Harley's Personal History Questionnaire and fill it out, and also, separately, write out a complete confession. Include the answer to this question: what questions are you hoping that your wife never asks?

Provide the completed questionnaire to your wife along with a copy of the confession, and provide a copy of the confession to your daughters and to your church. Do it because it's the right thing to do, and accept whatever decisions she makes.

Send a copy of the confession to Dr. Harley as well, and apologize for lying to him and Joyce. Ask them to read it on the air.

Of course there was! You lied to try to stay out of trouble.

MelodyLane posted this to you last year. Have you read Dr. Harley's chapter on Dishonesty in his book Love Busters, yet? He identifies four types of liars.

Markos,

Thank you for the guidance. I have printed the Personal History and Questionnaire and have started to fill it out. Law of Holes that fits me perfectly.

I am following your guidance with the confessions to each party also after I get done with the questionnaire.

The type of liars I have read, but have not applied the following pages and steps to Overcome Dishonesty. I have been 3 out of 4 types on a pretty regular basis. I am in great hopes that I can change this behavior by creating new habits. Dr. harley states "Fortunately, these three types of dishonesty CAN be overcome." The Way Ahead has been clearly shown and ignored on my part. This program nor any program cannot fuction with half hearted efforts and I hope to rebuild my wife's trust and confidence in me as I create these new habits.

Include the parts that you haven't told anyone, yet.

BTW, what have you not told anyone, yet?

Markos,

Ok understood. My church knows about the affair, but not all the details. My church aslo knows about my issue with lying. We were getting counseling from our Pastor but it fell off also.

Our kids do not know the situation but are not oblivious to the strife that is in the house. Not sure if you meant if we told them or not.

Is there anything I have not told anyone?
No. Today was the last of the information that needed to be shared. When I wrote my wife this afternoon, I gave details that I thought were not known which she said she did know most.

I don't believe you. Nobody is going to go into a polygraph hiding 'details' when the affair as a whole is already known. And it looks like you already did provide the details and just don't remember?

You are still hiding something much bigger.

Any rational person, and I'm sure your wife is one, would not believe that story and would assume that you are hiding something much bigger, like other A's.

Your only chance in hell right now is to come totally totally clean to your wife, and then schedule a polygraph to confirm it, and pass it. If coming totally clean means divulging things that will likely make your wife NEVER want to reconcile with you, that is exactly where you are right now only because of the lying instead of the deeds. There is a slim chance that she could move forward from the deeds but at this point I think it is safe to say she will never move forward with the continued lies.

Not to mention that telling her the truth, whether she chooses to stay or go, is the most respectful and loving thing you can do for her right now. If you really want to be selfless and make this right, that is.

(said before lying on a poly - okey dokey)

Yes understood.

I am very guilty.

Reading others posts and taking Markos advice.
I fully confessed to my wife new information today to the rock bottom. As I heard my daughter crying today on the phone at 1151 today and added self motivation to change, caused me to give it all up. She begged me to come home and was crying. This made me think of my wife and how much she is dealing with right now. The rock bottom is how much I regard I held for my lies and not the most important people in my life's feelings,emotions,future. Talked to one of my closest friends (he already knew from his wife) about it today.

Wrote an email to the Harley's with an apology.

I am a liar and a serial cheater. I have cheated on my wife and have gone online to look at other women. Reason I am exposing myself to you all is for help in accountablity. The serial cheating was years ago in the fog of my first affair and before.

Stopped behavior and will document the progress by posting nightly and ask questions to ensure I document my weaknesses. Also I will be filling out worksheets as I apply these principles to win my wife's love back. Recovery starts today 24 April 2015.

All, I deeply apologize...Reading my post this morning the "serial cheating" statement being years ago was not true. My wife found me on Match.com dont remember the exact dates, but I believe it was in 2013. I have completely stopped this behavior and we have both agreed to put extraordinary precautions in so there will not be a possibility of this ever happening again. Just wanted to expose myself. I will make sure that I am reading my posts to ensure there cannot be anything that is not true.

I want to change desperately and leave no room for errorany longer.

What?

You aren't exposing yourself when we already know you cheated and lied yet again.

Ok understood. Does anyone have any suggestions on how I can fix my marriage????

I am desperate and hopeless

Today, I exposed myself to a man that I have a very high regard for. We have arranged to meet as often as I need to discuss how to save my marriage.

It is another step by admitting my failures as a husband, father and Christian.

**The above question should not be "fix" my marriage, it should be "SAVE" my marriage.

Dr Harley told you how, when you were on the radio show. You chose not to do it.

BTW, I think the first and last line of your signature line need erasing. You haven't stopped you destructive behaviour yet.

SugarCane,

Changed at your suggesting.

I will make sure I listen again to both of the radio shows I was on to ensure I follow through with what was said.

Markos,

Wrote an apology to my pastor today and tonight will start with my kids.

I don't have any advice for you on how to save your marriage but I do have some advice for you. Respect your wife's decisions, don't manipulate her or your kids with pity parties and do right by your wife for once...without expecting something in return like saving your marriage. Improve yourself and stop your destruction behavior because it is the right thing to do...because your children deserve a better father...not because you want another chance to save your marriage.

Until you do things without a "what's in it for me" attitude, your wife should stay far, far away from you.

Thanks for the advice.

I am not happy with what I have created for my wife and kids and my ultimate goal is to be better not only for me, but most importantly for them. NONE of this is manipulation

Browsing the forum, I found the 30 days to a better man. It has some daily tasks to go through. Reading through 1st lesson and will be including this in my daily taks.

Nightly post 1:

Throughout my day, work, meeting with the established mentor and back by myself, there was not any dishonesty today to add to the sheet. Not an inclination to either.
Today, while sharing my story to my mentor it shows me how far I have dug.

Also though, shows me that how far I went, my mentor explained there is not a situation that God cannot fix. But will I let Him?

Not how far I went, how far I am...

You are wasting your time. Old forum posts are not going to help you, and many of these ideas are actually harmful to you. Dr. Harley was very clear with you. Anything other than following his direct advice is folly.

Do you have any idea how many men in precisely your situation have come to this forum and behaved exactly the way you are now doing? They consistently fail, because they are not sincere about changing themselves. If you really want to fix your marriage, you are going to have to embrace radical honesty totally. It isn't a matter of doing some things to document progress. You need to willingly transform your habits so that every room of your life is open to complete examination by your wife. You need to proactively open up. It is not good enough that you do just a few things and then go back to old habits. You need to make your dishonesty impossible. There can be no secrets.

So, instead of documenting your failures, why don't you figure out ways to allow verification of what you are up to. Make a secret second life impossible. Give your wife the keys to every room of your personal space.

"30 days to a better man" actually has some concepts that are diametrically opposed to MB, such as "I do not ask for permission", I do not sell out who I am to placate others" and "I choose which of my friendships to maintain". Adopting some of the attitudes on the list would mean not using POJA, and not putting your wife's perspectives on your marriage at the front of your concerns. The whole list suggests that what women say they want from a man is irrelevant; what is relevant is what other men tell a man to do. Of course, you should not be seeking advice from "women", but you should absolutely be seeking advice from YOUR woman, your wife, and not ignoring her in favour of what other men tell you to do. That is anti MB. So is this:

"Are there activities I used to do for fun that I no longer do? Is someone interfering and am I resentful because of it?
Are there valuable friendships with men I�ve let slip away?
Where am I currently having problems (unhappy, frustrated, sad, angry, resentful) in my life, and did compromising myself�and what�s important to me�contribute to my feelings and/or the situation?
What dreams have I abandoned?"

If you follow that advice, your marriage stands no chance of ever surviving.

You need to ignore anything you see on the forum that is not from a Harley book, article, email, forum post (by Dr Harley) or radio show, if you want to use MB to save your marriage. If you use those alternative sources, they will conflict with MB in places, and they will destroy your marriage.

Yet another lie.

Thank you for all the of the information.

What a shame that Dr Harley and Joyce spent all this time trying to help, and you just squandered the opportunity to finally begin to fix your M.

How sad for your kids and wife.

Agreed. I sent the Harleys an apology letter. I have and will continue to listen to the two shows to gain what I should be doing

Is there another post that I could be reading on where the MB principles were being done outside of the house? My w and I are not in the same house, but sent an email to her asking exactly what she needs from me at this point in time. I know what she has said and what she has needed before and without any current information, I will direct all of my efforts to stop those behaviors.

Spent some time with my kids today and it is only more motivation to stop my behavior and do what my wife asks.

Let me blunt:

Your word means nothing. You are the kind of person who can't be trusted to say what he ate for breakfast.

I'm sure these affairs were obtained through lying to OWs about all sorts of crap that a dumb OW would believe. You are used to lying to get what you want.

You have no honour. None. Zip. Zero.

Stop TALKING and start doing. Your word is worthless. You KNOW what she needs, be quiet and start doing it instead of talking your way put of it.

Nightly post 2:

Church service this morning the title of the Pastor's message "God does not lie" Titus 1:1-4.

Alis:

Posting is part of doing as she as asked me to post and read on the forum but I will leave out the ramblings.

What is the purpose of posting this?

It lets him check off the box that says "I am doing something". Of course, it is just words and means nothing.

Cast this into an employment situation: You have an employee who doesn't do his job and frequently lies to you. You demand that he knock it off, and instead he gets all philosophical on you. What would you do?

Just doing the minimum of what your wife asks is not going to cut it.

Nightly post 3:

Out of town today for work. Before I left gave w, all the email and passwords that I have. I also dropped my company laptop and gave the information to access those emails also.

For internet usage while I am away, I am using hotel business center for work email/timesheet and MB.

We have had before EP in place when I travel out of town which included:
Hotel Phone number with Room #

Gave all of this information to my w. I have been texting her when I go and come from places.

Made a counseling appt with a counselor that my pastor recommended for this week.

I read Dr. H's how to find a good marriage counselor. I do trust my Pastor's recommendation, but want to ensure the MB principles are greatly intertwined.

I am gathering questions together that I have come across through my studying of the "Love Busters" book and from conversations that I had with my w.

Tomorrow I will be posting these to get further guidance.

EP would be no more traveling without her. You need to revamp this. You cannot be trusted.

This isn't going to work.

Sigh.

Nightly post 4:Questions???
Understood. I am a defense contractor assigned directly to support Military training events to support the entire state. In the past, I was traveling out of town a lot, but have cut that back significantly as my wife asked. If I do have to travel out of town, my destructive behavior has pushed her to withdrawal where she doesn't want to spend time with me...How can she travel with me if it is absolutely necessary or how would I open discussion with her about this?

Our children call me on the phone and are saying they want me home and I am sure it is frustrating my wife even further. What can I do to help her and the children at this point of time?
How can I help her right now?
Reading about the state of withdrawal in which my destructive behavior has pushed her to, LB book states the way out of it (one spouse can do this, but it is much easier with both) is POJA. If my w has asked me not to contact her (which I did not adhere to this completely at and have since stopped since she reiterated it to me), what does this process look like?
When she calls me, is this where I try to implement POJA when discussing plans etc or do I agree with what she is saying without any negotiation because it is what she wants?

I have been seeing a counselor in regards to a TBI (Traumatic Brain Injury) I have from my military deployments. This counselor does not know the full extent of the affairs etc.. He is not just a military counselor he does marriage counseling also...My pastor has given me a Christian counselor (Appt Thursday). Should I give the military counselor the details of my marriage and address it with him also or should I keep both of these counselors separate to prevent from conflicting approaches?

You haven't even taken the basic EP of not travelling overnight without her. Why should she recover with you?

Agree!

Unless you change the CONDITIONS which have allowed you to have a SSL all these years, your wife shouldn't take you seriously, at all.

quote=1234qwer]Nightly post 4:Questions???
Understood. I am a defense contractor assigned directly to support Military training events to support the entire state. In the past, I was traveling out of town a lot, but have cut that back significantly as my wife asked. If I do have to travel out of town, my destructive behavior has pushed her to withdrawal where she doesn't want to spend time with me...How can she travel with me if it is absolutely necessary or how would I open discussion with her about this?

Our children call me on the phone and are saying they want me home and I am sure it is frustrating my wife even further. What can I do to help her and the children at this point of time?
How can I help her right now?
Reading about the state of withdrawal in which my destructive behavior has pushed her to, LB book states the way out of it (one spouse can do this, but it is much easier with both) is POJA. If my w has asked me not to contact her (which I did not adhere to this completely at and have since stopped since she reiterated it to me), what does this process look like?
When she calls me, is this where I try to implement POJA when discussing plans etc or do I agree with what she is saying without any negotiation because it is what she wants?

I have been seeing a counselor in regards to a TBI (Traumatic Brain Injury) I have from my military deployments. This counselor does not know the full extent of the affairs etc.. He is not just a military counselor he does nomarriage counseling also...My pastor has given me a Christian counselor (Appt Thursday). Should I give the military counselor the details of my marriage and address it with him also or should I keep both of these counselors separate to prevent from conflicting approaches? [/quote]

My suggestion is to forget about all of those counselors and use the money to follow the advice below, which Dr. Harley gave to a habitual liar. It's your only chance to save your marriage, but if not that, to save your own future.

GO HOME.

Sir,

Instead of the Christian counselor I encourage you and your wife to use the MB Coaching services.
Steve Harley can work directly with you and your wife to change behaviors and bring your family back together.
Are you willing to do that?

Beware of Bad Counselors

In response to your go home, what if W does not want me there? I do not want to make her angry because I am not honoring her requests in staying away.

Brainhurts,

Thank you for all the radio clips in regards to Counseling. I will be listening to them one by one.

Jedi Knight,

Yes I am willing to sign up for the MB Coaching services, but a lie detector test will be done before anything will be purchased.

What do you mean by that and why? You need help either way. I agree with Jedi that Steve Harley would be a good choice. You can't do the MB online program w/out your partner.

Why should your wife consider recovery with you when you do not take the basic EP of not travelling overnight away from each other?

This was not a rhetorical question.

Don't bother if you are going to continue to travel overnight without her. It will be a complete waste of time.

Is this your show?

Radio Clip of 1234qwer's show
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4

Brainhurts,

Yes it is my second show.

Jedi and Didnt quit,

My wife has stated that she needs a passed polygraph before any consideration so she knows everything is on the table.

Markos and Prisca:
I understand. I will not travel out of town without her. If I do, I will plan a family trip during the trip to ensure we are together.

Will be posting more questions and an update later tonight.

Some more questions:

Markos and Prisca: In the widrawn state that I have sent my w, how do I go about trying to spend time with her if she does not want to? I am following Remarks thread also and Markos you said to continue to try. It obviously worked for you all, but what actions allowed for the walls to come down?

Was it stopping the LBs/ENs and implementing POJA in all areas?

I am very interested to hear both sides in your marriage and what emotions were both going through, because I would like to understand fully what I SHOULD be doing and how she is feeling.

I do not want to hurt her and our girls for a second longer. I am following through with what actions she wants to move forward with and allowing her space. Is this the proper way in our current situation?

One of the biggest hurdles you face, 1234qwer, is your dishonesty. Your dishonesty makes recovering with you very risky for your wife. Openness and Honesty is a huge emotional need for a lot of women, and that makes your dishonesty feel even worse for her.

I have heard Dr. Harley say that dishonesty is one of the hardest lovebusters to overcome.

You are going to need to get a hold of Dr. Harley's 5 Steps to Romantic Love and work through the worksheets in order to overcome your dishonesty. You are going to need to get in touch with Dr. Harley and ask him to help you.

You are going to have to make yourself completely vulnerable to your wife. No more secrets, no more lies. She will need to know so much about you and what you're doing and thinking that she could walk all over you if she wanted to.

Signing up for the online program to be able to talk to Dr. Harley on the private forum is what really helped us, and I think you need that one-on-one help from him. He's your best resource and your best chance right now.

The big difference between you and Remark is that Remark is not concealing a secret second life.

Prisca,

Thank you.

I do have already the have the workbook, but should I be including my w in completing them or give her the completed copy of them? With the focus on Dishonesty?

Also, is there another questionaire (other than the personal history) to be completely vulnerable to her? Would a sit down with her be more beneficial? Should I be asking her all of these questions?

She has stated she just wants the truth and it is not about what I have done, it is what I keep doing...and very sadly I have not given this to her...

Beyond your dishonesty, I question your sincerity. You strike me as somebody looking for the easy solution. If you put can out this fire, then you plan go back to life as usual. You need to put some real proactive effort into this. Do you really have any concept of how much you need to change to be a safe spouse?

Why should I think you are not sincere? Just look at the effort you put into picking a screen name. Just hit the first few keys and don't really bother thinking about too much. It sort of belies a minimalist intent, doesn't it?

Even if you do complete the questionnaires, how will she know that it is the complete truth this time?

In my opinion, you need the direct guidance of Dr. Harley. You should contact him and ask him to help you come up with a plan.

Time to tell the truth.

Mr. Eureka,
I admit I have been someone that did the easy solution but I do see the seriousness of my behavior because of how my w feels and how much I have disregarded her feelings.

The screen name is part of a password to the computers I use for work to train Soldiers. It is something I use on a consistant basis and could remember.

I want to be the safe person for my wife and that is one of many reasons why I want to ask questions on the forum and getting the individual help that is needed to deposit love units for my w.

Prisca,

I will email Dr. Harley tonight and will update once I get a response.

I have given my wife the truth about my affairs and looking at pornography.

The issue is that I have lied so much, nothing is believable which I completely understand.

Today, I found a video that Dr. H did this year explaining Why Women leave men. It is based off the Article which he wrote located on the site.

The video showed me just how much I have hurt my w and how she feels neglected. Dr. H gave the action plan on how to prevent this from happening in the video also. I took a lot of notes and will re-watch.

There are a lot of problems that I have created in my marriage, but the one I am focusing on is dishonesty and why I am dishonest with my w.

Tonight, I mentioned the video to her and what Dr. H's plan was to prevent continuous neglect.

I have been told by people on the forum and my wife that the fix to my problems is telling the truth and show real change instead of talking about it. I feel that the only way start any type of recovery is to take another polygraph to confirm what I have told my wife. We have talked also about if it comes back again deceitful what actions she was going to take.

In our conversations, nothing I say is believable because of the polygraph results (I completely understand). Would/Should another polygraph be our next step?

If I were your wife I would not even give you the time of day unless you took AND PASSED a second polygraph. And if you took a second poly and failed a second time, I would consider your chances of reconciliation over and would drive directly to my attorney to file.

Word of advice: you need to come 100% clean. 100%. You cannot leave even the slightest detail out, whatever that may be, however hurtful you may think it, however embarrassing it is to you, even however unimportant you may think it is. It is your ONLY shot to start down a new path. If you do not plan to do that, then stop wasting your wife's and everyone else's time.

Have you heard back from Dr. Harley? What did you email him?

I agree to the polygraph and the she has every bit of infidelity information that I have done. The other lies I have told about random things I have been telling her as I remember them. I know that may sound shallow as I have lied so much. I was sitting in our neighborhood and I remembered a lie I told her and I wrote it down and told her. Anything that is a lie I will run to her to tell her.


I emailed Dr. H on 2 May and have not heard anything back as of yet.

Took my second polygraph today. My w and I agreed on the terms and she wrote the questions. Awaiting the results

You, of all people, should know what the result is going to be.

What did you say?

The results are back and it was failure.

I cannot believe the results at all. I have come absolutely clean to my w with all the details of my past affairs and pornography viewage and now with the results of the test my wife now will leave me.

I am shocked and hurt for my family and the results are not the truth.

Before the test there was a lot of nervousness on my part. I was not nervous because of any deciet that I was hiding but because the whole weight of my w life/kids life depending on these test results. I know that this sounds like a bunch of junk, but I did not lie on this test. My position on trying to be a better person for my family will not change. My posting here will not change, because I do despartely want to fix myself and my family.

With these results, she will be leaving me and filing for divorce. My Pastor and I were having lunch when she called him with the results. It has made me hurt to the deepest extent for my w and girls. The results are just not true, but I cannot be believed and I know that.

I have emailed Dr. H today again letting him know what the results were and asking for his guidance. There has to be someone within his experience to be in the same situation I have found myself. I am not hiding anything from my w and want to deeply apologize to her and my girls for these results. They are a gigantic mistake and I do not know now what else to do.

I have given to her every piece of information about me and have been truthful with her.

What questions did you fail?

All of them. My w wrote the questions this time. We were able to write 4 questions. I do not want to lose my family nor hurt my wife for a second more, but again these results are going to make that so.

I volunteered for this second test and want to clear this up, but the results again are what they are.

I do not want to accept well that's it and just not stand up and fight. Again, I do realize how much hurt I have caused my wife and girls and how difficult this news was to her.

But it is not true...

I had to take multiple polygraph tests during my civil service career. While it is a flawed technology, it does have its utility. You must have reacted to the questions. In all likelihood, you are such a habitual liar that even the "truth" is some form of fabrication in your mind. Most of us can speak truth effortlessly. But if you are in a habit of lying, you probably do a lot of mental processing even when you are trying to be honest. In other words, you have lied so much that you don't even know how to speak the truth effortlessly.

The thought of speaking the truth effortlessly is definetly something that I struggle with. I am trying so hard to not let another lie come out of my mouth and anything. I have confessed everything to her and as I posted before, any lies that come to my mind I have gone to her and told her. I do as you put "do a lot of mental processing" before I answered the questions.

I do not know how to explain the hole this has created first for my w, kids and me.

I do not know what else to do at this point in time except try to be there for my w if she needs me. But I think at this point she doesnt... and I completely understand...

My w is what I desire to please more than anything in this world, but she has accepted these results.

Even if you were telling the truth and the poly were somehow flawed, your track record convicts you.

Of course she would accept those results.

Game over.

What were the questions?

DidntQuit,
I realize that I have lied up until 2 days after my first lie detector test and I am very regretful for this and for the hurt of my w and girls that I have caused. I do not consider these results or my family's life a game.

Black Raven, Below are the questions (i took out some of the names)

Other than w and (known affair), have you had sexual intercourse with any other woman since you have been married to w? ANSWER NO

Have you had any inappropriate sexual contact (this was explained intercourse,groping,oral sex etc) with any other woman other than w since moving to (state we live) in April of 2013? ANSWER NO

Other than the one time you have disclosed to w, have you viewed pornography since the birth of your child in July 2014. ANSWER NO

Regardless of the questions being asked today, did you come here with the intention to be truthful? ANSWER NO

I am going to see a counselor that my w and I (separately) started to see last week. I called him after meeting with my Pastor. He said we will discuss some things tomorrow when we meet.

Through all of the despair and hurt that this is caused my family, I am still very determined to the MB process on fixing myself and show everyone else that I am being truthful with what I have said about these test results.

I noticed in my un edited post that my w name is in one of the questions.

No???

Sorry....YES!!!!!!

Below was posted to me earlier in the thread...

I am going to establish someone in my life to be accountable through starting tomorrow. I realize that I am a habitual liar. The failed polygraph is not true, but the reason for the accountablility is to prevent from the behavior from ever happending again



Originally Posted By: Dr. Harley

Your husband's problem with honesty is serious enough to warrent a program of intense accountablility. For one thing, it's threatening his marriage, but it threatens much more if he can't get it under control. Honesty is extremely important in life, and when a person's dishonesty has spun out of control, it can get him into all kinds of trouble.

Marriage has a way of straightening us all out, because our spouses will not let us get away with the self-destructive things that we are sometimes motivated to do. So by not putting up with certain behavior, it ultimately saves us from ourselves. This is most obvious with drug and alcohol addicts, but in your case, dishonesty can work the same way.

Your husband now sees the problem with his dishonesty, and is willing to do whatever it takes to overcome it. My advice is to spend a few weeks, or maybe even a few months, with a person or persons who care enough about him to correct his misstatements about common events of the day. It could be family members for some parts of the day, and you for other parts of the day. The point is to recognize that his problem with honesty is so serious that this radical step is necessary to break his habit. His dishonest statements must be identified and corrected as they occur.

I know that you are absolutely fed up with his lies, and maybe you can't participate in his recovery because each lie would be too upsetting to you. But somehow, he should be "shadowed" for at least a few weeks to help break him of this very bad, and self-destructive, habit.

Technically, all self-destructive human behavior can change if a person will allow someone who they trust to prevent them from engaging in those habits for a while. Once they are doing the right thing, the "coach" can be involved less and less until the risk of the bad habit has been eliminated. Ultimately, you end up being in the best position to be the coach that your husband needs, and you'll find that eventually, you won't have to go to special lengths to check up on him. But your husband should never go back to having privacy again. Even when he is able to give you accurate statements about his events of the day, he should create a transparent lifestyle where he never does anything without at least someone knowing what he's up to. I live that kind of life myself, and it's not a punishment for past sins. Instead, it's a way to make me accountable to others, especially my wife, which, in turn, makes me a better people. If someone with a video camera were to followed us around all day, and the tapes could be checked out of the public library, we would all become essentially sinless.

Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.

Comeon, qwer. That's not even a good believable lie. Come clean.

Markos,

There is nothing more to come clean about. I have told my w EVERYTHING.

I am determined to the MB program and apply it to my life to be a better person, husband and father for my family.

The test results were wrong and I hope Dr. H emails me back soon to help me understand what he believes should happen going forward. The lies are out and I have not lied to my w since 2nd day after my last polygraph.

I am very ashamed that my wife and kids have to go through this and want them in my life so much.

That is not believable. Especially since you lied on the first test.

I am confused as to what you have admitted to. How can you cheat before your first affair? Sex vs no sex? How many women are we talking about here and what was the type of affair you had with each?

I doubt that.

Which questions were failures?

So you have had sexual intercourse with at least one other woman since you have been married to your wife.


So you have had sexual contact with at least one other woman since moving to your state in April 2013.


So you have viewed pornography more than one time since July 2014, including at least one time that you have not disclosed.

See - the truth is easy. Hiding it ruins marriages.

I completely understand from all the feedback that I am getting here and fully expected it because of my track record.

The results of the test are wrong and I will be taking another from a different person. There were mixed reviews on the polygrapher that I used for the two, we just went for the cheapest. His price is also differes from the general range of all of the other certified polygraphers. Also, I contacted another polygrapher that said their appointment is significantly longer than the 40 mins I had with the first two. Bottom line is, it is a more thourough test.

I am not wasting anyone's time here and have told the truth and stopped my behavior of lying to my w. I have set up two accoutability partners (one in state and one out of state) to discuss daily activities and being honest in any lies that were told each day. These will for the time being take the place of my w until the results of the test are clearly shown to be false.

I am here to change my destructive behavior and get help. I will continue to post to gain insight and answer questions that you may have. Please understand that I do not mean this in any form of pride or to neglect my w at all.

Nothing from Dr. H as of yet,

Black Raven,

Here are the affairs:

1st: Kissing a girl while at my first duty station in the military in a bar.
2nd: Kissing another girl with touching on outside of clothes.
3rd: Full blown affair with sexual contact.

These were in 2005 and before. Since then, there has not been any Sexual Contact (kissing etc) with any woman other than my w. I am guilty of lying about the existence of the two kissing affairs until the 24th of April of this year. 1 day after my first polygraph. I have come clean with all of my affairs and am not hiding anything else from my w. I know that the results of the second test say otherwise, but the test results is wrong.

Markos,

All the questions that we paid for came up as failures.

I know that a passed polygraph will not fix all of my marriage problems. But sadly, a passed polygraph is what is needed for any hint of recovery.

I see the passed polygraph as a foundation that we both can place our feet onto to move forward. There is a lot of damage that I have created, but want to do everything I can (tell the truth in which I have) to prove to my w I am serious.

This is the 2nd failed polygraph, correct?

You realize, that you need someone to "shadow" you throughout the day, right? Later, you would tell your version of events and they would work with you to correct your misrepresentations, since naturally you will make them. You need a program of accountability where it would be impossible to lie, and where you actually learn how to notice the difference between the truth and any variation of it.

Will the accountability plan that you are considering accomplish BOTH of those objectives? How can someone do that from out of state?

Didnt quit and all,

The accountability plan that I am doing will not accomplish BOTH of the objectives. The accountability plan that I am doing now are phone calls and text messages with out of state and in state partners. I do not have anyone as far as a friend that I hang out with here in the state. Its just my family and I. Our church members are most of older folks and live 20 to 30 minutes away from us. My current plan seemed like the best option for the situation we are in. If not, let me know what your thoughts are...

Since yesterday was Mothers Day, I didnt call either of them. My day was focused on my w. Some of our girls were sick, so my w went to Church while I stayed with the others. Got her some gifts and wrote her a letter. The day prior I helped our girls make a home made craft for her.

Went to lunch with her and didnt want to bring up anything, but to have a good lunch with the family. Wanted it to be pleasant for her and now not being around them on a consistant basis, really makes me appreciate them as I have taken a lunch with my family for granted. Came home and my eldest daughter and I went to Church.

After all the girls went down to bed, conversations about our relationship started and didnt end well because of something very insensitive I said (will tell below). She also was trying to tell me about her feelings about how this (my actions) were the same pattern. I then (being stupid) tried to unvalidate her feelings by saying it is not and told her how I am seeking help in areas in my life etc...(love buster after love buster)

I have now arrived to the point where I immediately see what I said and how it minimizes my w feelings. I need to get to the point where I think about what I say before I say them. It is a love buster that I committed when I cannot afford anymore. I also realize with the limited time that I have with her, that I cannot spend it hurting her even more.

The statement I said that initially hurt was about another lie detector test. She said Friday late afternoon that she agreed to another test from a different adminstrator. Last night she said about the concerns about money and spending it for me to lie again and how much all of these tests are costing. She previously told me that we have the money for the other test, but I feel from her that it is more about the results and the continual expectation and hurt that each test involves (I understand this completely). The hurtful statement was "I didn't know I was going to fail the second one". Again, immediately after I said it, I knew I should not have said that and it caused her to walk away.

I know this is a long post, but wanted to tell all exactly what happened and where we are at. Today, I wlll be making an appt with another polygraph test (after I get my w approval)and set an appt to get my w the truth.

Also,

nothing from Dr. H as of yet...

Find something of value to YOU (and not her), perhaps some memorabilia from childhood or family heirloom that is worth some money, and sell it to make the money to pay for the third poly. If I were her I would be getting resentful shelling out money that could be used for my kids, for yet another polygraph, after you have failed two already.

Excellent idea!

I already let you know what I think. I did that by spending over an hour of my time, sifting through posts on the private forum to find something that I had remembered reading over 2 years ago after paying about $1000 for access to Dr. Harley's direct advice to people. Then I caringly posted Dr. Harley's advice for how to overcome this problem and you are ignoring it.

And you just got through telling me that your plan is not going to cover those objectives. Really? Sell something and pay one of those sweet older church men, chosen by your wife, to shadow you and teach you how to represent your life accurately.

How hard was that to think of? You don't seem serious. Anyone can call their best friend and feign an accountability plan. It won't work. You must put yourself in a position where you are not ABLE to lie in order to learn how to be truthful. You seem to be slacking because you think that your wife is considering giving you a chance.

Even if you did clear your name on the polygraph, you are still a liar. Your wife needs to see a plan to change

Have you notified the MODS so they can let Dr. Harley know?

I have posted things on CL to get money for the next test. There are some other things that will go on tomorrow.

Brain Hurts:

What are the "MODS"? I have two emails for Dr. H, but I have been using the mbradio one to send to.

Can you clarify this.

Going through my old Army box, I found a copy of His Needs, Her Needs in my deployment box. It was a big punch to the stomach to know I had the book and never cracked it open. I didn't remember I grabbed it, but what a great surprise at the same time.

Did you just skip over this? Passing the poly would't be enough for your wife. You need a plan where you are forced to learn to be truthful. Otherwise, how can she ever know that you are telling the truth when you have shown that you favor your own comfort over her protection?

Did you ever hear back from Dr. Harley?

The "MODS" are the moderators. When you click on the notify it goes to the moderators and they can relay the message to Dr. Harley. So let them know you've written Dr. Harley twice and you still haven't heard back from Dr Harley.

Brain Hurts:

Just did the "notify" process and let them know about not hearing back from Dr. H

Didnt Quit:

About the accountability plan... Would my w be in the best position to conduct this plan? You recommended a person from Church to complete this with me with my w approval correct? I am struggling with this (not because I disagree with being accountable) but because of the difference in situations.
I have lied to protect myself and yes at times with random things about my day. I agree that I am ( wanting to acknowledge what I have done) 3 out of the 4 types of liars that Dr. H states with the exception being the "born liar". I have not lied to my w up to date, since after my first test where I finally told her about all the affairs I have had.

Yes since then, I failed the second test, but that is why I am so against the results because I am not lying to her about the additional affairs etc...Nor on a day to day basis on what I had for lunch, where I am going, who I am with, who I am calling on my phone. Please understand I am not writing this to be arrogant whatsoever and again agree with the accountability plan and shadow.
I am taking leave from work after this next week. This would help facilitate the shadow process better. What do you recommend?

I understand there is very little confidence from my w and others on the forum in regards to me telling the truth because of my track record. I am here for help to best build love in my marriage that my actions have destroyed.

I posted very late this morning as for the last couple of days we have had a sick baby very little sleep. After reading my post this morning, I realize that I wrote some things that were not considerate of my w.
It is not about me "knowing" I have not lied, but my w knowing. I want my w to be happy and ensure that I am not doing anything further to make love bank withdraws.
I will discuss the shadow plan and what is recommended in the thread with her to ensure we have an agreement going forward. I have tried to do other things that I thought made her happy and not meeting her most important need "honesty" and it has landed my w and girls in a midst of turmoil. I do not want them to be unhappy for a second longer and meet her needs as she has clearly laid them out for me.

You need to move this to Surviving an Affair.

You also need to develop a plan to make it impossible for you to lie to your wife.

How does your wife know the stuff in color? Does she just have to believe you or are you proving it? Have you put a gps for he on to your car? A VAR? Have you eliminated circumstances that allowed the affairs to happen? Have you read Surviving an Affair? Have you completed the checklist form the book? Are you having at least 20 hours of UA time each week?

Apples:

How do I move this? Would it be through the "notify" tab?

Here is what I did not get an answer on what the action plan:

About the accountability plan... Would my w be in the best position to conduct this plan?

I am taking leave from work starting this weekend and ending on the 1st of June.

The stuff in read:
She has access to my phone records and has a tracker on my phone. She also has access to all the bank records when and if I spend money. I have been asking her to spend any money that I needed while I have been out of the house. We have a calendar in the house that I have placed all of my meetings etc. on . Also, she has access to my work email that has my official calendar there also. We are seeing the same counselor but individually and he has given me some things to work on to help me as an individual to better my outlook on my marriage.

At this point of time, she says that she is Legally Separating from me and does not want to work on it anymore. My focus has been on the failed polygraph because I feel that it gives us something to set our feet on to establish some type of truth.

Here is what I have and am I doing currently:
I have posted anything I have of value onto Craigslist to raise money to pay my wife back for the other tests and raise money for another. I also posted myself for general labor to work. This last weekend a guy paid me 60 dollars to work to help him move his house in which the money I received went straight to my w. I am going to keep this posting updated to ensure any opportunity can be taken. In our Church, there is a guy that owns a business and I worked for him for one day in past. I offered him to help him out if he needs it and yesterday he said he would talk to his GM to see if help is still needed.

My w has access to all of the finances and work is slow. I feel like I do not have any other options right now in hopes of raising money. As I stated, a passed polygraph doesn't fix everything, but it is my focus. My w has said she is not in love with me anymore but I want to do everything and anything to stop my behavior and win her back by my actions. I am trying to give her room to make the decisions that she needs but do admit texting her a lot that probably needs to stop.

I would like any advice that anyone to give to help me understand what I should be doing right now. I do not want to add any additional hurt for my w and girls

Tell the truth?

Apples:

I answered some of your questions here are the rest:
Have you eliminated circumstances that allowed the affairs to happen? Yes. We have agreed to terms if I did travel out of town what actions she expects
Have you read Surviving an Affair? I have not read Surviving an Affair. I have read Love Busters and His needs her needs. I also have the a workbook.
Have you completed the checklist form the book? No, because I do not have the book.
Are you having at least 20 hours of UA time each week? She has said why would she spend time with me if she doesn't want to work on the marriage. I did not get a definite no, but should I go forward with it?

You are not safe for her, and she should continue on for divorce.

I understand that the travel out of town what you have said needs to be arranged where she goes with me and that is what I am planning on our next trip.

I will figure out how to get a copy of the book.

I humbly disagree with what you have stated because of the actions have changed. I know I do not deserve another chance, but I want to ensure I have the guidance of what I should be doing at this time to help any way possible.

I have an idea. Since the Marriage Builders program works to save marriages, why don't you try following the advice of the Marriage Builders program? That would require you to tell your wife the truth and not spend nights apart.

Or you could keep trying your approach.

I have seen no evidence of change. You haven't even read SAA. You don't even know what the checklist is.

My advice to her would be: RUN.

That is exactly what I am doing. She has EVERY bit of information about me as I have told her but the polygraph results need to be cleared up because I have not lied to her. I also want to establish direct accountability with my w for her to know that I am not continuing in my destructive behavior.

Nights apart have drastically decreased but I realize that they need to cease in which they will. I have a trip coming up in June that we can take the whole family and have started planning a camping trip for us.

I do have faith in the program and will more intensely apply it to my marriage.

Emailed Dr. H again with updates in hopes of getting a response.

Is this checklist on the site somewhere?

Invest some effort and find it.

Doing that now searching local libraries now and other means.

You should be so well versed in MB by now that you should be answering questions instead of asking them. You've had enough time.

But you haven't even read SAA? I don't see a whole lot of effort on your part.

I will get a copy of the book and read it. Looking at the table of contents it looks like there are a lot of the questionnaires that I or we have filled out already, but again will get the book.

I am asking questions because I feel that in the current situation I need some guidance.

I am living my life as I ought to and according to what she has told me what her issues are. I do not have an Independent Life or Secret life as my wife has every bit of information about me. This is a willing change and do not want to lose my family. I will move forward with the MB fundamentals and work the program as I believe in it...

Just purchased Ebook version of SAA

Let us know when you've read it.

I took the rest of the afternoon to dive into the book and I am complete. This is by far the better "action" books that I have read. I am a former military guy and I understand checklists.

My apologies for above asking if the "checklist" is on the site (my complete ignorance). There are many checklists that I used print screen and pasted all of the checklists into a Word Document to create a packet.

I asked my w, if we can sit down together after our girls go to sleep to discuss things. She stated there is nothing left to talk about.

Today I really felt hopeless. But reading this book and it plainly laying out through checklist has given me a new hope into the recovery of my marriage. I know it is not going to be easy and there is a long road ahead, but to read of the bliss in recovery and how the program delivers if followed makes it all worth it. My w and girls have been worth it and I can really say that this book gives me even more motivation to create a MB marraige and life.

As I said, I made the packet of checklist and have checked the ones that I or we have completed thus far. Undivided attention, what if at this point in time she doesn't want to spend time together?

Here are my notes from the book:

It is HONESTY AND OPENNESS that improve marriages.

The what the intentions of Separation and how I can apply that to my situation. This is a big wake up call and to see how much an affair (my lying) has caused so much hurt. 8 extra ordinary precautions
1) Block communication with a lover: this has been done for years (but I am looking at this/these checklist to place in lying/pornography)
2) Account for time: I have not done this, but will be writing out my daily schedule with phone numbers to reach me at during each daily activity. Also, I will be making phone calls during the day to see how she is doing.
3) Account for money: Done. My w has access to all of our bank account records login passwords etc...
4)Spend Leisure time together: I am hoping that she agrees to time together and I have leave from work for next week. Hoping to enjoy some time away with my w and girls.
5) Change Jobs/Relocate if neccessary: I have not taken my wife on trips overnight with me. We did come to an agreement of terms that will happen when trips like this happen, but that is not good enough. I have a trip out of town next month that I have already been planning for a Camping trip.
6)Avoid Overnight Separation: One of our girls have been sick and that has allowed for me to be home more. I asked my w if she will agree to not spend any nights alone...no answer as of yet
7)Technical Accountability: My w has all of my email and passwords for every account that I have. I do not have any Social networking accts so this one has been done for awhile alos.
8) Expose the Affair: As I said above, I am putting in place of the affair with lies and pornography that I have viewed along with the affairs I had. She has told and exposed what I have done to others and I have exposed myself to a older man in our Church.

Dishonesty not only makes massive withdrawals but strangles compatability. I see this in my marriage more than ever. It has created feelings of me for my wife to be destroyed.

Honesty is the viedo recording in our lives. I have been putting this into practice in my life. I think through my actions because I do not want dishonesty to be in any part of my life.
The definition of "interdependent behavior": this has shown me just how important Dr. H's guidance and what the opposite is.

Quality vs. Quantity: I have a major problem with this. The issue is I have never asked "Are you satisfied with the way I am meeting this need". I just assume I am doing it right. **BIG PROBLEM**

Policy of Exclusivity: 7 precautions
1) Greatest Affection to wife and eliminate any to any other woman. My affection has been to myself and lies. I will need to devote all of my affection to my w to make her feelings my highest priority.
2) Engage in every sexual act or experience with spouse and only with my spouse: I admitted to my wife weeks ago I masterbated once and have not done it since..
3) Intimate Conversation: I have not been honest with my wife in things that I struggle with as I have always tried to portray myself as being strong. A gigantic lie! I will be absolutely open and honest with my wife to share my struggles,hopes,dreams,victories and deepest thoughts.
4) Spend Recreational Time: We definetely need this in our lives and make it a priority. But I did post the question up above as to what my response should be if she rejects this request.
5)Telling my w about any complements that I receive and avoid telling anyone of the opposite sex other than my w: if this occurs this is what my actions will be
6) Avoid contact with past lovers: this has continued to happen
7) Avoid all infautions with anyone other than my w...RUN!: I am not infauted with anyone in my life.

Two Ways of Restoring Trust:
1) Policy of Joint Agreement: will read on the site on how POJA is done with my w that has been pushed over the edge due to my destructive behavior
2) Radical Honesty: I have given my w, radical honesty, but will be giving it to her tomorrow.

Plan for Recovery:
1) Avoid love bank withdrawls. Going off of my w's love buster questionnaire and being an expert on meeting her most important emotional needs.
Two important Love Busters: A. Dishonesty=Overcome by Radical Honesty B. Independent Behavior: POJA
2) Love Bank Deposits:
Policy of Undivided Attention
Policy of Exclusivity

I have completed the Marital Problem Analysis and have made my w a copy. I have also signed the Memorandum of Agreement dated TODAY. The packet of checklist I am going through one my one and developing plans to discuss with my w tonight if she wants to meet. I do not want to force the issue, but I do not want to give up either.

That is my short synopsis of the book and I will be going over my notes and re reading the book again tonight.

1. Hit "notify" and ask to move this to surviving an affair.

2. Good on reading the book. You should plan on reading it 3-4 times in the next few weeks to internalize the ideas.

3. You should do a lot of reading in the Surviving an Affair forum so you can learn. Read threads from the wayward in successfully recovered marriages. I haven't been here long enough to know all the best ones, but several people have referred to the posters Gloveoil and HerPapaBear.

4. If your wife won't POJA with you because ofthe trust issues, work on eliminating lovebusters first. Especially independent behavior and dishonesty. Then try to make any lovebank deposits that you can.

5. Until your wife is willing to engage in the marriage, you should create the plan for extraordinary precautions. It isn't worth her efforts. Also, she has EVERY RIGHT to leave you.

Also, are you listening to the show every day? That is a great way to internalize the concepts.

Apples:

I realize that I do not deserve anything from my w at this point. I also realize that she has EVERY right to leave. I am really working on myself and stoppping Love Busters altogether to make deposits in her Love Bank and ultimately make her happy.

Every day show listening did not happen last week in which I realize needs to change! I listened yesterday and take my Marraige Agreement that I dated for yesterday very seriously. Part of that I believe is listening to the show daily and posting on a more consistant basis.

I wrote out my schedule with times and phone numbers where I can be reached throughout the day and told her that I left it there.

Will read more of SAA and the forum.

hitting the notify now to move the thread...

Have you heard back from Dr. Harley?

Nothing from Dr. Harley yet...

What are you asking Dr. Harley?
What is the reason for writing to him?

They said on the show that they were out last week. They are probably catching up.

I will answer your questions first.

I am asking Dr. H for guidance in where my w and I are at right now and what exactly he recommends I should be doing. I also asked in his experience if there were any couples that he worked with had any issues with false polygraph results. At the base of my email to him, I just want to do what is right by my w whatever it is and do the neccessary steps to fixing myself for her and my girls and ultimately for my marriage.

Apples:

Yes I caught that on the show yesterday also, so hopefully I will hear back soon.

I want to post the latest of mistakes I caused between my w and I:

In my EP with my cell phone, I went to a flip phone without any data plan attached to it. It cannot access the internet on it and really only sends texts messages and phone calls. As you can assume with all of the turmoil going back and forth between my w and I there has been some lengthy text messages both ways. The flip phone keeps track of messages sent and received just like any smart phone, but does not have the memory size.

My phone told me that I was out of memory from all of the texts on my phone and would not let me receive text messages nor save what I sent out. I went to my w because I do not want to delete any messages incoming nor phone calls that I made to try to clear memory. We did not agree to anything and to prevent this from happending in the future (full memory notifications) there is a feature on my flip phone that allows me to not save what I am sending but save what is being sent to me. In my mind this was a good option because it cleared a significant amount of memory on my phone and because she has copies of my phone records any text message that I sent to someone and they sent back can be easily seen on the phone. I will stop here and say this was and is a bad idea. The statement "in my mind" should never come out as a good thought..We should AGREE to what is best and I did not...There has not been any instance since this feature was put on that I text someone outside of my address book and they did not text back and the phone records will show this.

I still have not deleted any incoming text messages and if they are not in my cell phone address book, she can read off of my phone what they are contacting me about.

My w expressed how decietful this is and has expressed that I will never live at home again. I do agree after hearing her get angry bc not only this incident but the other hurt she is dealing with. It is another example that I have lead in the POJA to prevent things like this from happening. I realize too after my conversation with her last night and staying up in my car all night that there are so many other things I could have done better to prevent this from happening. I could have deleted photos I have or something else on the phone to save the space, but i know it goes back to her and I coming to an agreement.

My w said that I should have deleted my conversations with her and it would have saved alot of memory, but I didnt think of that nor did we discuss that previously. I am really trying to please her in everyway but continue to fail because I am not following the program that can and will save my marriage. I do not have a problem with text messaging random people or reaching out to people that I should not be. I called my today cell phone provider and stopped text messaging on my phone. I would have called my w, but she has asked me not to talk to her at all nor contact her.
I want to go overboard to prevent any more hurt because I care so much about fixing my marriage. I really did do this with the best intentions at heart, but realize intentions do not fix anything only actions.

I know I am going to get some ruff feedback from this post but I want desparately to save my marriage.

You may be able to download all of your text messages and photos onto your family computer, then With Her Agreement, everything on the cell phones memory card can be deleted and free up significant storage.

LTL

Very good point... I will do that if my w agrees to that. I am going to honor her no contact at this time and am now going to start calling everyone on my contact list to inform them that I will not be responding to text messaging only phone calls.

The people I contact the most have been contacted via phone call. I wrote on the above post I would contact everyone, I do not see that as needed because on my contact list there are people I have not talked to in a long time.

Question I have,

If my w has asked me not contact her nor does she want to do the MB process with me, do I still give her all of my daily schedule via email with phone numbers etc... I am not saying calling her and letting her know where I am going, when I get there as I was doing via text before, but maybe in the morning email her with the my schedule?

I just had to email her about putting gas in my car for work as she controls all of our finances which I am fine with.

Just want to do the right thing and not push her further away.

I recieved an email back from Dr. H:

Here is what his email said:
I responded to your wife�s letter to me today, suggesting a few things she might do to restore her trust in you. I�m somewhat confused about the two failed polygraph tests, and wonder if you used two different examiners.
My general suggestion would be to spend as much time together as you can. I know that might be hard to do, since you are separated, but your wife really doesn�t want the marriage to end. She wants you to be honest with you about everything, and if you spend most of your time together, she can be a witness to what is really going on in your life.
As far as your affairs are concerned, you must take the same extraordinary precautions that I have taken throughout my life with Joyce, which is to never have a friend of the opposite sex, never do anything recreationally with someone of the opposite sex, never carpool with someone of the opposite sex, never engage in social media with someone of the opposite sex, etc., etc. To the extent that your wife is all you have when it comes to the opposite sex, she will become much more trusting.
Best wishes,
Dr. Harley

What does your BW think about what Dr. Harley recommends?

What do you think about what Dr. Harley recommends?

My w stated that she does not want to live as my babysitter and have to treat it like a parent child relationship and feels that I have left no other options than to be done with our marital relationship. She wrote me an email as I was reading Dr. H's email with the feeling that there is hope.

What I think about what Dr. H recommends is what I have been humbly asking my w to do. We have NEVER applied all of the different checklists, completed some of the questionnaires, but mostly not done the program together. I take the blame for this because I did hurt her during the process of us "trying" to work on it.

I told her that I will continue to try from afar even though I want to follow Dr. H's plan so bad. I do not want to force it nor annoy her any further. I am trying to give her space to figure out exactly what she wants to do. I realize also that my actions have placed her at this point and that the decision is not for me to make any longer. I will make the decisions that I know I need to make and make my life MB quality in hopes of a reconcialtion.

When she sent me the email today I felt her hurt throughout every word of the email. I wanted to hug her and tell her how sorry I have been as a man to her and how I want to make the neccessary changes/accountability to allow for the MB process to work.

I read and feel that Dr. H advice can fix my marraige and I will be writing him a response to answer his questions and figure out what he recommends now...

I hope that you all understand it is not about what "I" want to do. Reading the things she wrote in the email and knowing how much I have crushed her with my actions, I just want to make her happy and honor her as I should. If that means she separates and eventually divorces me, I will keep trying to the very end again without pestering her.

I feel like sadly I have not committed to a lot of things in my life, but I will commit to creating a loving and caring environment for my w and children. I do not want to just let them walk without me doing something about it.

I am listening to today's show now...

I took some of the advice of what Dr. H was giving the caller today to heart. Here is what I highlighted.
Right now for my w, gifts would be considered a show. Right now I cannot make any further withdrawals. Deposits will be very very few but I have to accept this. Do not preach to her (I have done this before) which is very dumb of me and I have stopped that behavior. Text her without being annoying. The contact if any need to be pleasant for and to her.

I am not saying that we are in the same situation as the caller today, but I think some of the principles in which Dr. H gave could help one step at a time.

In viewing your posting something keeps standing out and rubs me wrong about your discussing your efforts. You might want to re read your own posts.

You comment that you are "trying" over and over in many posts.

This is the kind of thing a kid says to his Mother or teacher in response to a disappointment. It sounds insincere and half committed. It's the wrong attitude or projection. Your wife needs an adult who gets the job done. This projection of "trying" sounds like theatre and not the real deal.

Think about it. If I were standing next to you and I asked you to please pick up your shoes off the floor would you respond by saying "I'll try to pick them up" ?

No. If you respected me and agreed you would just do it.

Perhaps you are in the habit of saying I'll try as an affirmation but at this point it's likely best to be straight.

Say what you will or will not do. Most important use positive actions.

"Trying" can easily be interpreted as:

I will think about this action step but if something else more compelling comes along I might actually do that instead.

This might be more representative of your younger self you have not fully given up.

An action step now might be to edit the ambivalent language so your wife does not feel she is standing on quicksand so to speak.

Go forward using language that is caring and confident in your words and actions.