My wife and I have been together for 15 years. We are in the aftermath of discovering an emotional affair.

Situation

My wife spent the last year and a half seeking emotional guidance with a college friend who she had a crush on for years.

She met this man in college (now 10 years ago) and always maintained a friendship relationship with him. During her time in college, I knew about this friendship and I always distrusted this person because he�s a womanizer. I never doubted my wife�s fidelity and she always treated me very well.

I always asked her to keep her guard up because �you know how some men are�, but she�s a very open person and a people pleaser so this doesn�t come natural to her.

After college �John' (alias) moved to Europe for business. This relieved my anxiety about their friendship, although they maintained contact through online apps and over the phone. They checked in regularly every few weeks or months. When I asked about their contact she minimized it. We had a lot of heated discussions about her friendship with John because I was afraid it had the potential to grow into an affair.

She always knew that I didn�t like it, but continued to maintain the friendship. I put up with this because, after all, John lives thousands of miles away I didn�t want to fight all the time. Note that my wife has always been extremely loving in our relationship so I didn�t have any reason to believe she would be up to something bad.

Recently I�ve found out that since a year and a half their contact become much more frequent and my wife started discussing very personal emotional issues with John.
I realize now that I was emotionally not available for her, which I�m very sad about. I always thought they talked every few weeks for a few minutes, but in reality she send thousands of messages, she dreamed about him and sought out for life guidance. Not something you like your wife discussing with her college crush�

She started talking more and more about him to me, to the point where she mentioned that she wanted to start up a business with John. (She told me this before I found out about the emotional affair). For me this was a red flag so I checked into her communication with John and that�s how I found what they�ve been talking about.

A few months ago my wife and John met a few times in person while he was visiting family in the States. I have enough trust in her that nothing physically happened and she also denied anything did.

After a lot of talks with my wife and self-reflection on her part she found out that she was looking for a father figure in John. Someone who could comfort her emotionally and make time for here when I was unavailable. She acknowledges that she has sexual emotions for John but she believes it�s a neglectable issue in all of this (something that I don't agree with). Since this came out she agreed to brake off all contact with John and cancel the business plans.

I�m still left with a plethora of emotions. I have so much love for my wife and want us to build up our relationship. I�m fighting with emotions of disgust, feeling betrayed and I find it very hard to trust her at the moment. Even though she sought out for emotional guidance, it feels like she was having a full blown affair to me. She let me read all the letters en emails, she comforted me that nothing sexual happened nor was discussed but I keep thinking that she�s holding back information.

To top it all off, this all happened while where actively trying to get pregnant. To her, this proves that nothing was going on. She agrees that she had a toxic relationship with John and she admits that she would not like to see me having the same kind of relationship with one of my female friends, but she doesn�t see it as putting our marriage in harms way. To me, it feels like she wasn�t into our marriage at all if she could build such a deep relationship with someone that she knew I don�t like.

If you made it this far I would like to thank you very much for your time.

I have two questions:
For the readers with experience, what do you make out of all of this? Sometimes I feel like I�m blowing this all out of proportion, but on the other hand I just know she was walking blindly into a physical affair.

Second question: What about trying to get pregnant at this time? I know it�s not the smartest thing to do, but we are getting older and I don�t want this to kill our potential last chance to have children over this. We both want to work on our relationship but I�m having serious trust issues.

Thank you,

Alex

Welcome to MB.

You should be having 'trust issues' because your wife cannot be trusted. You have mentioned numerous times in your post that you have faith or trust in your wife. Dr Harley does not advise anyone to have blind trust in their spouse. This is because we are all wired to have affairs and will all have one in the right circumstances. So you can see that blindly trusting someone is not a good approach, as you have now found out through your experience.

Trust issues are your natural instinct to a threat. This OM has been a threat to your marriage for many many years. Your WW gaslighted you into allowing her to continue destructive behavior.

Dr Harley has a great plan for recovering marriages from an affair, but it does not include blindly trusting someone. It includes 1) eliminating the opportunity to have an affair and 2) building a better marriage than you have ever had.

Please go read the Exposure 101 thread. This is the first step to killing an affair. Given the long history of your WW's relationship with this OM, you cannot afford to skip this or any steps.

Please understand that your wife is not on your side right now as she is fogged out on her affair. Do not discuss exposure with her.

In addition to unwritten's great posts, is the OM married?

My take on your two questions:

1. Your wife is having a garden-variety affair. It needs to end with exposure and terminating all contact with the OM for life.

2. Getting pregnant is a side issue. This affair is an existential threat to your marriage. You can kill this affair totally in just a couple of months, but if you don't act to end the affair quickly, it will never end. So, put the pregnancy on hold for those couple of months and secure your marriage first. You still have time to build a family, but the time to rescue your marriage is fast evaporating.

Thanks for your response.
I read the Exposure 101 post and we already took action.
This is what we did:

Done
The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

Done
The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

Done
The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

Done
The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

Done. Blocked all email/social media accounts, deleted phone number of the OM. I have all of her email and cellphone passwords so I can monitor everything she does online.
Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

Done
Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

Done
Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

As much as possible at the moment
Spend leisure time together.

Done
Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

Done
Avoid overnight separation.

Not sure what this means?
Allow technical accountability.

Done for the most part, her best friends know and I found out that they have warned her about maintaining this relationship in the past but she didn't listen to them because she thought it wasn't serious. She now understands that it was very toxic and agreed with all of the above. My parents, my brother and a few of our mutual friends know as well.
Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.

Yes. I know Exposure 101 tells us to expose this to his wife, but she's European and doesn't speak English. Also note that I've read all of their communication and he never tried to make it sexual (nor did my wife). He was playing the roll of an understanding father. The sad part is that my wife had a crush on him, so the problem lies in our relationship. She never talked to him about having a crush, she only admitted this to me and her close female friends.

On answer one, in your experience, how hard is it to recover from this? This all happened in the last few weeks. Sometimes we act very loving towards each other, an hour later I feel like smashing furniture...

Thanks for your guidance (2)

That is because you have just been through the worse experience you will ever have. The injury to your brain is real, and it will take time and effort to heal. How long? The book answer is two years, but you can feel a lot better in just a few months. You need to stop reinjuring yourself. Practically, this means stopping talking about the affair - immediately and for life. I know that sounds like a tall order, but that is what you have to do.

The other thing is to see your doctor and get on antidepressant medication for a short time. That will restore your brain chemistry to something more like normal. You will feel less traumatized, so it will be easier to get back on your feet. Your wife may need medication as well. The next step is rebuilding the romantic relationship with your wife. The more normal you feel, the easier that will be.

It's very hard for me to stop talking about the affair. I feel like I need to keep digging to gain more information. I still feel like she's going to drop the bomb...

We are going back and forth a lot. Being very romantic, arguing, crying, and back. I do feel like she is starting to feel guilty for what she has done, where a week ago it felt like she was sorry she got caught.

Can anyone help to provide steps to how she can forget/get over the OM?

Dear unwritten, in other topics you talked about how she should delete the OM phone number/email and she should change her mobile number and stay away from social media.

My wife has a high profile job. She deleted the OM from every medium and blocked him from her personal social media accounts.
However, the OM also has her mobile number/email from work. It is impossible for her to change those contact numbers. How should we/she go about this?

The other thing that bothers me is that his email is just his name. Therefore it's very easy for her to just add him on a secret account that I would never know about, if she really wanted to.

Out of protection for my mental health I don't want to start installing spy software. Any advice? Thank you.

AlexF
The answer to your last question is in your first statement.

Do you have all the information you need about the A? If so STOP talking about the affair.

Get SAA, read every thing on the MB site, follow the advice given from the these great people here and DON'T skip any steps.

What are the steps for her... you BOTH Build a great romantic marriage in the present using the MB steps

You can choose to do what is right for your marriage, or do what is right for her job.

It is not 'impossible' to change contact information. It is a choice whether to do it or not to do it. I can only tell you what Dr Harley would recommend in your situation and that would be for your wife to make it next to impossible for there to be ANY contact with her AP. Listen, this is a long standing affair. EA or PA, this is someone who she has had around for a long long time. I would assume she is in love with this man. This is not just a one night stand or two week fling with a meaningless individual you have no feelings for. For this reason, taking shortcuts is NOT going to work. She WILL contact him again, or he will contact her again, I would put money on it. You can choose to leave avenues open for that because of her job, or not. That is your choice.

You are right, she can actively seek out contact with him. This is why transparency in your marriage, and also spyware, is so important. The more difficult it is for her to contact him the less likely she will be to do it. And if she does, you need to know about it so you can address it. Again, nobody can make you use spyware, but your mental health will suffer just as much or more if you don't know what is going on, than if you are monitoring it.

This has NOT been done. You are still uncertain about the nature of their relationship, which is why you keep bringing it up. I would suggest you ask her to take a polygraph to confirm that there is not more to the story. Waiting for the 'bomb to drop' is no way to live.

These have NOT been done. The OM still has access to her through her work email and phone. Clearly this is a huge gaping hole of easy contact opportunity.

This has NOT been done, and it is the single greatest opportunity for you to hold her accountable and end this affair. You have not exposed to the OM's BW which is the greatest exposure target and will pack the most punch. We have had posters who found and exposed to people from other countries and who spoke other languages before, and this can be done.

I am trying to point out that there are some gaping holes in your EP's. This is called cutting corners and it won't work. It will especially not work for a 10 year long affair.

I would get these holes filled up today.

The 'plan' that you are asking for is Dr Harley's plan to 1) affair proof your marriage (through EP's) and 2) create a better marriage than you have ever had. Have you read through his basic concepts?

Again, I would ask her to take a polygraph. It is a win/win for both of you, if she has told you everything she can use that as an opportunity to gain back some trust by proving to you that she has been honest about the affair. And you can put it to bed.

Have you read about lovebusters? Are you committing lovebusters by trying to get her to feel guilty? Even if you have been betrayed, it is not OK to beat her affair over her head. It will do more damage to her love for you and to your marriage.

Once you have all of the information, you MUST stop talking about the affair. Dr Harley is very adamant about this and any one of us can attest to the fact that, although it is very hard to do at first, it DOES make a huge difference. It becomes easier as time goes on. The better your marriage becomes, the more the pain from the past will fade...unless you keep bringing the pain from the past into the present.

Again, talking about the affair is a choice. You can choose to do it or not to do it.

Getting the holes filled in your EP's so that there is NO contact with the OM for life, and creating a better marriage than you have ever had...that is the steps to take.

She should be able to get her number changed. She just needs to ask her job.

Here Polygraph Testing

Okay, suppose I can have her to change her work email/phone. She can still create a fake email on her work computer. She works at a large IT firm and it is impossible to install spy software on her computer without her company finding out. Getting her fired is not going to help our marriage.

Perhaps you could tell us what you are willing to do to save your marriage.

Almost since you got here, you've been arguing that the steps that Dr Harley advises are impossible for you to take.

Well, fair enough, if that's your assessment, but Dr Harley's advice is all we've got. What do you intend to do now?

An update:

She agreed on changing mobile numbers (both work/private)
She is looking into changing her work email as well (I will follow up)

She made an appointment with a psychologist to work on her personal issues.

I send an exposure letter to her best (female) friends who know about the OM.
They didn�t reply to me, but set up a meeting with my wife.

I�m very reluctant about a polygraph. This is borderline psycho to me. (I hope I don�t offend anyone, I�m just ventilating how I feel) I�m even afraid to mention this. I feel like if I would need a polygraph to believe her, I�d better divorce her.
We�ve had major fights about this already, throwing around plates, we came very close to physical aggression,�, and still she told me every time that nothing happened besides everything I know. (And yes, I do realize that fighting is bad, we didn�t get hurt and we didn�t lay hands on each other)
There�s also an error margin, so knowing myself, even if she would pass the polygraph test, I still would have doubts. It�s true that I need to be able to control myself, put it behind me and focus on working on our self and our marriage instead of keep digging.

About exposing this to the OM wife. I really fail to understand what good could come out of it in our situation. Firstly my wife and the OM communicate in a language his wife doesn�t understand, so he could lie to her all he wants. I really don�t feel like translation every text. Secondly, it�s my wife who has a crush on him, (to my understanding after all the communication I read), not the other way around. Throughout the years, it was always my wife who initiated the contact. All the feelings she has for the OM were writing down in her journal. She never talk about it to him. (I conclude this from reading literally thousands of messages via email/text/social media.

I think I�m mainly worried that this would backfire on me and trigger the OM to contact my wife. I can assume some think I�m naive, feedback is welcome.

Thanks again for all the help. I never encountered so many helpful people on a forum.

Point taken. This is all very new to me.

I just want to make it extremely hard for her to contact him again (and the other way around). So if she would to contact him again she can't rub it off like it was a moment of weakness.

I want her to work on her personal issues (in progress: psychologist) so she feels like doesn't need him anymore.

And I want us to work on our marriage (in progress, learning about love bank/busters, emotional needs, POJA,...)
Of course I want to work on myself because I have been very selfish as well but I understand that I'm not solely to blame.

This is a huge wake up call for lingering issues that we've neglected for years. Our marriage was in a state of withdrawal. I just hope we dodged the bullet and we can continue to grow.

People say that when they really don't to press an issue. The people who really are that close to preferring divorce, will press the issue because they don't care one way or another (ask me how I know this). The fact still remains that unless you have the truth from your WW about the true nature of this relationship, it will be very hard to recover your M.


If your WW is that much against a poly, then I'm very sorry to tell you that she IS lying to you. That is classic gaslighting 101. People who refuse to get the poly are doing so because they are lying.

Keep in mind that the fact that they secretly met up several times behind your back while engaged in an EA basically means it was a PA.

Your W is still lying to you.

That's understandable. But we can tell when a posters really doesn't understand a principle and when a BS is dealing with a gaslighting WS and doesn't want to rock the boat and is in Plan Conflict Avoidance.

Our goal is to help you save your M. Not avoid your WW's anger and fury.

When you exposed to people, what EXACTLY did you tell them?

The only personal issues I see here with your WW is that she has horrible boundaries. MarriageBuilders can help her with that.

A psychologist is going to be a distraction and probably give your WW justifications for her IB and SSL. A psychologist doesn't care about your M.

Miscommunication.
We didn't fight about the polygraph. I haven't talked about it.
The fight was about the affair.

With all due respect, you don't have a clue about my wife's personal issues. With or without this affair, she experienced very traumatic events in her youth that she needs to overcome.

The psychologist that she's seeing also helps couples by the way.

The fight was about her continually lying to you about what really happened.

Dr Harley's recommendation for overcoming traumatic events in our youth is to put those events behind us, and focus on the future. He is a licensed clinical psychologist, and he knows that the way to resolve the traumas of the past is to stop looking at them, and to focus on the present and future. Talking about past traumas in therapy is in fact re-living them, and trying to overcome traumas in therapy is a way of ensuring that we remain ensnared in those problems for years to come, while spending a lot of money rehashing them. Talk therapy is a never-ending nightmare for clients, and a cash cow for therapists.

You're missing the point. I don't need to know about her issues to know that she has bad boundaries and that fixing the boundaries has nothing to do with her past.

That is in articles on this site and I talked to Dr Harley about this issue with regard to my exWH (who also has had a lot of traumatic incidents in his past). He didn't need to know what these specific issues were and told me that my exWH going to therapy to work on them would not help our M.

You realize that when we are posting to you, we are posting Dr Harley's advice, right?? I'm not saying that to be snarky but your response back to me reflects a misunderstanding of the source advice you are getting here.

It doesn't matter if the psychologist sees couples. Most marriage counselors and therapists have NO idea how to save a marriage, especially one trying to recover from an affair.

I experienced marriage-wrecking advice given by therapists (plural) outside of MB personally and we see it on these forums ALL THE TIME.

So your W is willing to take a poly??

??

With all due respect, what does this have to do with the price of tea in China? Why would you bring the unhappiness of the past into the present? This is a needless and silly distraction at a time when your marriage is on life support.



here

here

here

The same story I posted here + asking them to support us to get our marriage back on track.

Here and listen to the many of radio clips in here.
Beware of Bad Counselors

I am concerned that you wrote about your problems with trust and you called it a friendship in your first post.

Did you use the word "affair" when you exposed?

Did you expose in writing?

It's not as black and white as you'd like to see it.
They (my wife, the OM and her friends) were all classmates. My wife and the OM were always friends. I've met the OM while my wife was in college several times in a friendly way. She talked about me in a positive way numerous times in their texts.

The problem is that she started to feel infatuated with him. She wrote down those feelings in her journal but never talked about those feelings with the OM. What she did do is contact him much more frequently, started discussing more emotional matters about her personal insecurities (NOT about our marriage) with OM and she met him a few times to talk about their business projects without telling me. And yes, I'm sure they talked about business because I've seen the business plans and I've seen business documents that were created on the date that they met.

I would have no problem if she just kept talking to the OM every few weeks/months like she used to (like friends). This changed because she started talking daily with him and started meeting him in person. That could've turned into a sexual affair, and that's why I'm here.
----

I used the word affair when I exposed to her friends. (written)
She already met with one of her friends and she (her friend) condemned this situation and offered her support to end al ties with OM.

This is exactly how 99% of affairs start. It starts with an opposite sex friendship that slowly grows into an affair. Do you still feel you would have no problem with it now that you have seen the outcome?

Your WW's affair is not special. Its not any different than any other affair we see on these forums, and she's not that different than any other cheater. Most cheaters don't go looking for an affair to happen. It begins with an OS friendship.

Dr Harley has an article about this. Have you read it?

Risk of Opposite Sex Friendship article

Thinking that your WS is "different" somehow (aka everything is not black and white) is a part of BS denial, which is probably one of the biggest issues we deal with on these forums.

This denial leads BSs to skip steps such as learning the full details of the affair and implementing appropriate EPs, which we are already seeing with you here, talking about allowing your WW to continue having OS friendships so long as they are not sexual affairs.

Being in denial about the fact that an EA vs a PA hurts your recovery. It will keep your WW foggy and keep the door open to her SSL (secret second life) and the last thing you need is to have more d-days down the road.

I've been on this forum for almost 10 years, Alex. If a person is involved in an EA and makes any kind of "trip" to see the OP or the OP has some type of "travel" that involves visiting your WS, this means it was a PA. That's ALWAYS the case. Just because your WW had some type of old friendship with this guy does not make this situation different.

Once enough LB$ deposits are made, the need for the affair to become physical becomes IRRESTIBLE. This is true for your WW. Again she is no different, having a previous friendship with the OM does not make this somehow not true for her. Look:

Link: Are Friends a Threat to Your Marriage

Do you call it a PA because they met in person, or do you mean you assume they had sex (or any other inappropriate physical activity?

No.
We installed a no same-sex friendship rule for us both.
Both of us now realize that the risk is too high for anyone, including myself.

They met and had some type of physical activity. I don't think there will be ONE person on this forum that would tell you differently.

When people who are in an EA have physical contact with each other, it QUICKLY escalates to PA. Every time.

I've re-read your thread just now. I hate to pile on you but I see that you are on the path to getting hit by the train hard again.

To recap things that have been pointed out but haven't really been flushed out on this thread:

1) This is basically a LTA where your WW has met with the OM several times without you, and she hasn't admitted to an EA. No plans for poly.

2) OM's BW hasn't been exposed to

3) WW works at IT firm where you have no access to what she is doing on the computer and phone there. So you don't have transparency.

4) WW is going to psychologist to work on "personal issues"

Any ONE of these items would be concerning and you have FOUR. I hate to be a Debbie Downer but I see more d-days in your future.

I just watched Dr. Harleys videos with my wife and we're working very hard on our marriage. Your negativity is driving me away from this forum. I understand that you're trying to help me, but freaking out on every detail, while we are clearly covering all the major tips that Dr. Harley provided is starting to feel like you're the type of person who like to create a problem for every solution instead of the other way around.

Alex, the warnings you are getting are a result of long experience. No one here wants you to have to learn the hard way, because the hard way in this situation may result in the loss of your marriage. If you see someone sitting on a train track with the train headed for them, do you warn the person or do you help him pretend there is no train coming? We aren't being negative, we are trying to help you see red flags. Dr Harley, for example, has specialized in saving marriages from infidelity for most of his career and here are some of the things he says:

here

"small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous..." Dr Bill Harley

Page 66 in Surviving an Affair

I am alarmed at some of the gaps in your situation. I am not saying this to be negative, but because I care about your situation. We are here paying it forward because we are passionate about recovery.

The first most glaring gap is the fact that the OM's wife has not been informed. I am not sure why since this can only benefit everyone. Not telling the OM's wife leaves that door open for your wife to resume her affair. The OM's wife can't watch from her end and she can't protect herself and her children from your wife and her husband if she doesn't know.

Polygraphs are very common when there have been affairs. If you have reason to believe you don't have the full truth, and I believe you do, what would it hurt? It would ease your mind and it would help you establish trust. That is in your best interest and your wife's. If you have doubts, this gives her a great opportunity to prove herself. A win-win for all.

Please don't be offended that we point out these gaps. We are not being negative. The cost of failure is too high when there has been an affair. Susie experienced this first hand and is very good at seeing the gaps. I am hopeful you take her advice because she is exactly right.

When will you be exposing to OM's BW?

Can anyone give me advice on how she could ask her work to change her business email (valid excuse)?

"Freaking out on every detail" is basically what we do here. People come here and want to cut corners and don't make it. Unwritten wrote about this to you earlier in the thread. In fact, she tried to address many of the issues that you say I am 'freaking out about" and it looks like she might have given up and abandoned the thread.

Dr Harley's infidelity video does not encapsulate his program. That's basically a primer, and his book SAA, articles on this site, his radio show and his online program do. We have provided quotes and links for you for all of the things we are trying to address so please do not dismiss our advice by saying you are following the "major points".

I realize you are upset and this is a difficult time. Believe me, I get it! But arguing with posters doesn't help. We are not the enemy. The affair is. The worst thing we could do is pat you on the back and allow you to just skim over huge gaps in your recovery plan when we know it is just going to backfire and hurt you down the road.

LTA is long term affair. You said your W has been pursuing this relationship with this man for 10 years against your wishes. That means this is more serious than a regular affair and recovery will be more difficult. It will be harder to keep your WW and this OM apart. Unwritten tried to address this with you earlier but I don't think I saw an acknowledgement from you that you understand this.


The poly that has repeatedly recommended by myself and others is because you said this:


We know the bomb is there and will eventually drop and it will ruin all of the hard work you are doing. If you think what you are going through now is painful, false recovery is MUCH more painful. We have a brand new poster w/n the past few days on this forum who told his BW his A was a EA and not a PA and now years later she found out the truth and their M may now not be recoverable.

The poly is the solution to the problem you presented to us. Dr Harley would tell you to get the poly and a link for more on his thoughts on poly was provided to you earlier in the thread. I spoke to Dr Harley personally about the fact that my ex H was saying his A was an EA and Dr Harley was skeptical about that and told me to do further investigation.

What is the plan with regards to this?

Will you please answer this?

An update post.

You're trying to persuade me to have her take a polygraph and inform the OM's wife because you are convinced it will help crush the affair and help our marriage. I heard you loud and clear.

I will explain you my reasons not to do this.

New update: my wife agreed to take a polygraph test if I want her to.
Second update: she will cancel the appointments with the psychologist that wanted to work on her personal issues

How I feel:
Every polygraph test has a margin for errors. This is a fact. Secondly, and much, much more important, I know how I am wired.
Please listen very close to me now: even when my wife takes a polygraph test that confirms her story, and proves that she did not lie to me, I will still have doubts because I'm the type of person who likes to bring things back up from the past and let it turn in my head, even when it's supposed to be let go.

This makes me conclude that a polygraph will not help ME to ease my mind.

This is something that I need to recover from on my own.

Next topic.

I fully understand that the OM's spouse can be used as an extra asset to protect a marriage and as a guardian against a relapse.

I do not feel like this is true in our situation.
First of all, I do not believe I'm a special little snowflake.
What makes this situation different though?

The OM's wife does not speak a single word of English. Please envision this for a second. If the OM would change my wife's name to 'Bob' in his phone, he could email or, for all he cares, even talk to my wife on the phone while his wife is standing next to him without her ever getting wiser. So why would I bother? To scare him? I feel like sending a picture of my gun collection would do a much better job. (I'm typing this jokingly, no need to call the police...)

My wife and I have worked from home for the last 4 weeks, spending every moment together. I am 100% certain there hasn't been any contact in the meanwhile.

I am positive that if I would contact the OM's wife, he will contact my wife again.

Please understand that he doesn't have a clue that my wife has a crush on him to this degree. I know this from reading thousands of messages. Of course he's not a retard and understands that they are close. They talked about life, about difficult issues in their childhood, about setting up a business together. The romance and infatuation was happening in my wife's mind. She wrote it down in her private diary which she agreed to let me read. That's how I know. She never expressed such thoughts to him.

I want to invest our time and energy in rebuilding our marriage. This feels like we keep dwelling on the affair instead of moving on. In the last four weeks we've had a lot of fights (mainly because I wanted to keep digging for details, but she keeps saying she told the whole story) but also had the best talks and loving moments in years. To conclude my rant, we�re going on a vacation for a week together, leaving tomorrow. In that time, I will try to constrain myself from posting on this forum. I do appreciate any help, but I hope I made my objections clear.

It is not just for selfish purposes, it is for her own good. She needs to know about the affair so she can protect herself and her children from YOUR WIFE and her husband. It is an ETHICAL obligation. Your wife can't very well claim redemption if she won't even make sure her victim is informed. You should not become an accessory to that crime by helping them hide the crime from her.


I am positive that this is a bull**** excuse to avoid doing the right thing. First off, if he does contact your wife that only says that your marriage is not affair proofed. How can he possibly contact your wife if she has ended the affair and closed that door?? This excuse does not supersede the OM's W right and need to know.


Please listen very closely. Do you have psychic powers that allow you to foresee that she will pass the polygraph? If you do, your psychic powers should have shown you the utilitarian effect of polygraphs. Yes, most waywards on our forum pass polygraphs. Want to know why? IT IS BECAUSE THEY REVEAL ALL BEFORE THEY TAKE THE TEST. When the test is scheduled, more information always comes out before the test. They do not want to flunk the test, so they sing like a parrot. By the time the test is taken, the BS feels he/she has all the relevant information.


This feels to us like you are trying to cut corners and you have been warned about this. You are dealing with a long term affair and you cannot afford to cut corners. Half measures will avail you nothing. You need to a) get all the truth and b) inform the OM's wife so she can protect herself.

Stop telling us to listen to you and take the cotton out of your ears. Your best thinking has led you to this terrible place. Your best thinking won't lead you out of this.

Please walk me through this. How is the OM's wife going to protect her marriage from my wife after she knows this?

Are you suggesting that I get his wife to change all of his contact numbers? Please be as specific as possible.

To me, it all comes down to constraint at the end of it.
Suppose I would do this, what keeps them from going to a cyber cafe on a computer that I can never run spy software on, with a fake email address and continue their ways? This is not a rhetorical question, tell me how can I possible prevent this without locking my wife up in the house without access to a phone or the internet?

The reality is that if they really want to continue their relationship they will always be able to find a way. This is why I feel I need to be concentrating on our marriage instead of these two rules.

And I know get why I should contact his wife. Just allow me a minute to wrap my head around this.

I have no idea why this makes any difference or this is even being brought up as an issue. You can have a message translated to her language. Problem solved.

This will be very specific.

What they do with their marriage after you expose the affair is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.

Your WW interfered with their marriage in a very serious dangerous way and this poor woman has a right to know that.

Can you please answer my previous post about them being able to go to a cyber cafe? (the topic of constraint and being able to find a loop hole in my/our efforts)

The language problem is an issue because -from my point of view- she cannot be used as an asset to check up on her husband because she can't understand (FUTURE) communication anyway. I'm not going to translate hundreds of messages to her to make my point. I cannot simple take one message and translate it, because standing on their own, the messages don't look dramatic at all. It's the combined story that makes it alarming.

The only proof I could come up with is taking my wifes private diary, take pictures, translate the words for her and send it to her, and this is never ever going to happen. This is totally ludicrous.

Do you want to know how you are special and your situation is different?

Your W has been pursuing this man, her college crush, for 10 years and kept communicating with this man against your wishes and even after it reaching the level of a A, you are looking for ways to absolve your W of wrongdoing. In fact, your entire first post was FILLED with points trying to minimize your W's A with a married man.

Look:

She was not "blindly" walking into an physical affair. She was not looking for a father figure. She has been actively pursuing this man for years, a man that she admitted she had a "crush" on. She is not the victim of a womanizer. She was trying to MAKE this happen. Any objective third party can see this for what it is.

A good MB friend of mine told me that my own use of the phrase about "needing to work on trust" (something you talked about also) was a signal that I ignored my gut instincts and preferred to try to make excuses in my head for some of my ex H's behavior....and also that I was in the habit of being gaslit. She told me it was important for me to recognize this about myself.

I think you need to recognize that you have a habit of not being objective when it comes to your W and preferring to sweep issues under the rug in order to avoid conflict/upsetting your wife. We see this a lot here on the forum, but this is one of the more extreme cases I have seen of it.

You HAVE proof - you have your WW's admission of an affair. That's enough. You don't have to send this woman any pictures of your W's diary and nobody ever told you that you needed to do that. Nobody told you to translate your W's messages. You would translate your OWN message to this woman about the fact that there was an affair.

Even if you don't believe she will be an asset, you have a MORAL and ETHICAL obligation to let this woman know about this affair. While many WW's will leave their BH's for the OM, most men are just looking for a fling on the side and do NOT want to lose their wives. Exposure to a BW of the OM usually is a nail in a coffin for an affair. Which is actually why most WW's will absolutely do everything in their power to keep their BH from doing this one exposure.

You should change your lifestyle to make an affair impossible. You should spend all of your free time together and your W shouldn't be going off to cafes by herself to use her phone. If she does restart the affair this way, it will not take very long for you to recognize the signs that she's up to something. So long as you do not tip her off to your suspicions and/or badger her about what she's up to and quietly investigate instead.

A person who has a SSL raises red flags that are not hard to spot. This is in the basic concepts and articles on the site and you should know this from your WW's past behavior.

If you expose to the OM's BW, then the chance that she could even restart this affair is decreased.

This the language of a BS who is in the habit of conflict avoidance and who wants to cut corners.

We have seen this before, Alex.

First off, it is none of your damn business how she will stop your creepy wife and her creepy husband from messing with her marriage behind her back. That will be entirely up to her how she capitalizes on that opportunity. It is none of your business or your concern. What matters is that you do the DECENT THING and warn her so she has the opportunity to protect herself.

You need to wrap your mind around THAT.

I would like to dig deeper here.
In the last 10 years there were times where they would only have very superficial contact every few months, sometimes even once a year.

It was very random, like how are you, what job, goodbye.

Their relationship was nothing more than this for years. The reason why my wife and I had discussions about it, was because I don't believe in same-sex friendships (like I should).

A year and a half ago there was a life event and she looked for advice among friends (not about our marriage), including OM. They started talking more and more often, monthly became weekly and weekly become daily, and now we are here.

That's how it went. And yes I understand the love bank concept, so I know how it happened.

We are actively trying to get pregnant while this happened. If you're trying to tell me that she was knowingly trying to MAKE this happen, and I would believe you, then I would divorce her today.

I can't give certain details to protect my privacy, but you can be very sure that she's very confident about having children with me. Why would she run off with OM during this process?

NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. I guess we are supposed to assume here that this woman is too stupid to get an interpreter?


The only thing here is that "totally ludicrous" is your heartless complacence about this woman's safety and security. If someone else knew about your wife's affair, you would HOPE they would they have the decency to inform you. That is what DECENT people do.

Her logic and decision to have a baby does not dictate her love bank. Our emotions don't follow logic. And without proper precautions, we mess up our logical decisions.

If you understand the love bank like you say you do, then that contradicts your belief that because she was willing to have a child, she was not seeking opportunity with OM as well.

Living blind might work for the short term. However, by not verifying the truth, you make a weak structure weaker and more vulnerable.

You must know the truth in order to heal. The OM'S wife must know the truth in order to have a choice about her future. You have the tools and opportunity to set the proper recoveries in motion- polygraph to confirm the facts and the exposure to further stronghold the boundaries. You can save the OM'S wife from years of a fake life. You can send your wife a message that you will seek out the truth and hold her accountable for it. It will reinforce the end goal of recovery.

It's scary but worth it. When your spouse agrees to a polygraph, do it! BIG mistake not to. I have made that mistake before and won't make it again. When you can't believe your spouse (obviously addicts and Waywards become liars) then a polygraph is a godsend.

Update:

I have followed up the rules and contacted the OM's wife using the template (FB message) last week. She has not yet answered me, but I guess it's out of my hands now.

I feel a strong urge to contact the OM as well. Is this recommended or the contrary? I want to know how he feels about my wife and what his (hidden) agenda was.

My wife and I had difficult talks and I feel confident that I know the truth now.
I feel a lot of resentment to the point where I question to get a divorce. I still love her deeply and she wants to stay together too because she loves me.
I'm afraid I will never be able to forgive her and that I will forever keep thinking about it. Do you think this is reason enough to get a divorce? When we don't talk about the affair and concentrate on our marriage and the love bank principle I feel very good and even better than before the affair, but I keep having setbacks.

My wife feels like I should make a choice. Either keep building on a positive way and stop talking (digging) about the affair, or end it because she (and we both are tbh) are emotionally drained.

What should I do next?

Sending a FB message to someone who is not a FB friend, will not be notified by FB. She might not see or read the message.
Why would you want to know how this man feels about your wife? If you contact him, only to tell him that he should never contact your wife ever again. And it does not have to be in the form of a polite request.

What makes you feel confident you know the whole truth? We've seen many cases of false recovery, because the betrayed spouse didn't have all the information. What makes you sure you have all the info if you refuse to have her take a polygraph?
If you want to recover, you first make sure you know all the details you need to know. And after that, you never bring it up again. If you discover new info after that, it will set you back again. Also, if you keep bringing up the past, you will not recover.

Then you set extraordinary precautions, so the circumstances that made the affair possible are avoided. Very important, because of the addictive nature of an affair and in your case, how long it has been going on.

Then you recover by creating a romantic relationship that is better than before the affair. You do this by following the MB plan.

Did you read the article on forgive and forget?
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042_qa.html

For now I have found no other way to contact OM's wife.

--

I want to find out how strong his urge is to contact her again.
All contact numbers have been changed and/or blocked, but I want to get in his head. This is probably never going to happen.

--

The whole truth: because she agreed to a polygraph.
I arranged a date and show her the questions I wanted to ask and let her sit on it for a few days. She answered all those questions but I couldn't let the polygraph take place because of financial reasons. For me this is sufficient. If you want to help me have her take a polygraph I would be happy to share my bank account via DM.

--

Recovery:

There will always be something I will never know: meaning, I want to know every word she ever spoke to him. Not a polygraph, not anything will make that happen. I am confident that they did not have sex (that was for me the ultimate deal breaker for divorce) and now I have to focus on building myself up, and building our marriage back up.

I still think about all the details but when I have a lucid moment I realize that those are futile. But at bad times I keep digging in my mind.

His urge to contact her will be strong, just like any addiction. No need to ask him.

You don't need to know every word, but you need to know essential information as what made the affair possible and how to avoid those circumstances in the future. You need to know the logic of the affair (what emotional needs were neglected in your marriage).

Your reluctance on taking a polygraph in this thread was quite obvious. As far as begging for money for a polygraph, divorce will cost you a wee bit more than a polygraph.

This was rude and unnecessary. Especially considering you have never mentioned anything about wanting a poly before and finances being the barrier.

In fact you keep emphatically telling us that the poly is not necessary despite it being clear for your own posts that you do need one.

Agree with goody. Don't know what you would be referring to with the "hidden agenda". Both the OM and your WW had an agenda by having an affair - getting their EN's met outside of marriage which felt gooooood.

It sounds more like you are hoping to get more information from the OM about the affair. We've already told you how to accomplish that.

Advice needed please;

A close friend of the OM, who's a mutual friend of my W, contacted her via a network application.
The close friend asked her: can you call me?

Nothing more, nothing less. My W informed me minutes after she got this message.

What should we/she do? Ignore? Send him a letter to keep his distance?

Is this mutual Friend male or female?

Male. I have no idea if he knows about the affair or not. Wife of mutual friend is also a mutual friend, so contact is not weird, but the timing surely is. Also asking to call him instead of eg asking "how are you lately" is also pretty weird. Timing is off...
It could be a simple hello how's life, or OM could be using a mutual friend to get in contact again. What's your advice?

Why does she have social media? Wasn't this one of the avenues she used to carry on her affair? Also, why does she still have OS friends?

You are completely right. Action will be taken. Thank you for your guidance.

Please urgent help!
I already contacted the OM wife, but there's a good chance she never read the message. (My wife knows this, and agreed).

My wife is now very angry that the OM's friend is not leaving her alone. My W suggested to send another reveal letter to the OM's wife in her name (so she would send the letter to his wife herself, WITH my consent and she would let me read the letter and let me watch her post it)

Should I let her do this? I think this is a very good idea.
We want to handle this asap.

Additional question: we want to focus on OUR recovery. Really don't feel like having to conversate with OM's wife for days or even weeks. How should I (or my wife) react to her additional questions (if any)?

Why don't you think that the OM wife didn't read your message? Why do you think she would read a message from your W and not you?

I'm not understanding your W's fury at the OM's friend. She shouldn't be on social networking in the first place and then he wouldn't have been able to get in contact with her.

No, your W shouldn't email the OM's W. If you think an email in HER name will be opened by the OMW, then you can send the exposure - written and signed by you only. Exposure is not done by the WS.

At the end of your exposure letter through your W's email, you can give her YOUR contact information. If she has any questions for you, you should honestly answer them.

It would be unusual for the OMW to want to conversate with you for days or weeks once she has all the details.

I understand that you want to focus on your recovery, but keep in mind you have had this information for WEEKS while she will just be discovering this. Please be respectful and kind to this poor woman. She did nothing wrong here.

She was mad because she thought OM was using his friend to get in contact. We just learned that his (mutual) friend had a passing in the family.

So he probably just wanted to talk to my W about the passing. (Again, this is an assumption, we don't know why he wanted contact for sure)

You're right about the social media apps. This was a loophole.

I have no reason to believe that OMW will read the letter from my W. I just thought that IF OM used his friend to contact my W additional action was necessary.

Did you send the letter through email to OMBW? Can you contact her through phone?

No via FB. That's the closest I got. Don't have an email or phone number. I'm skilled at IT, if she had her phone/email public I would have found it by now.

After reading about it, it sounds like my W was having a "split self affair". She was trying to avoid conflicts in our marriage, while she suffers from low self esteem, so she created this fairy tale world in her head and tried to live this dream with OM, through their digital contact.

Does this sounds familiar? Any particular advice on how to solve this?

When they decided to meet-up and talk about the business they wanted to start, I feel like she was gaslighting herself and me so she would have an excuse to start having him in her life in the 'real world' and not just in her texting apps.

Do you think she can be saved? Do you think our marriage can be saved? I'm very scared that she will start to deeply miss this fairy tale she created and will go back to it. She tells me she wants only me and a good marriage (and acts like it), but I can't look inside her heart...

(Couldn't edit post anymore)

The intense part of the EA lasted for two years and my W and I got married during this period, and were trying to get pregnant. This ads up to the feeling like she can't be trusted (especially) emotionally ever again. Should I separate these two events? Or is this a sign of a person you never want in your life anymore? She has always been very loving so I can't complain about her actions towards me in that area...

Garden-variety. Nothing more, nothing less. Most important thing, it lasted for 10 years.

Re-read your thread and all the advice given. If you want to recover your marriage, follow the advice without short-cuts. Considering the affair started before you were married and was at its peak while she said "I do", you cannot afford to cut any corner.

The biggest obstacle I see in this situation is that you are desperately grasping at straws to make sense of this situation when it is very simple.

Your W had a crush on this man (admitted it to you) and he already had a lovebank balance with her before you two married and she continued looking for ways to get her EN's met by him through the duration of your M. Why?? Because it felt GOOD.

It's really that simple!

Waywards who like to cake-eat (getting ENs met by their spouse and by the OP) is NORMAL. Your situation is not special.

When I was a teen I worked at a restaurant and I found out one of my coworkers, (a good friend) and one of the managers were having an affair - they were both engaged and both got married while I worked there and continued their affair.

It had nothing to do with low self-esteem or childhood issues or fantasy issues. It was the same as any other affair and the way to recover would be the same.

I think your W is still wayward. The "fury" you describe at the OM friend contacting her (which is her fault for not changing her contact info) is a red flag IMO.

Not telling you the entire truth about the affair will lead to a wayward staying sick. I wrote about this in the "false recovery" thread. I know you don't want to hear it but I think that's at play here.

To be brutally honest, your W has been wayward (leading a SSL and clinging to her IB) for the entire marriage. To change that around will be tough and a radical change for her. It's possible, but it won't be easy.

It seems like it's been a struggle to get you to follow the steps for recovery, so I'm worried that if you guys can't even get it together for the fairly easy stuff (poly, EPs-sounds like she is still on social media etc) that you aren't going to be able to implement the harder stuff like UA time and POJA.

It's really up to you guys. The tools are all here.

Thanks for always being so honest Suzie.
The fury you describe was more pissed off, but I get your point.
She took care of the other social media accounts together with me, and this social media network apparently slipped through the net. It's not like I didn't know she was active on that platform so it was not a secret. Just being sloppy. She's in the process of shutting social media apps down altogether right now, instead of just blocking certain people.

What does SSL and IB mean?
I guess secret second life, but IB?
Not sure what UA time means either.

I can just guess it's about filling the love bank?
Actually since D-day there's been a lot of fights, but we are finally after years of sugar coating everything talking about our love busters, what love deposits we like, and we talk a lot about the giver/taker concept. This helps us put our finger on a lot of issues we had in the past. I ordered Surviving an afair and His and her needs from Dr. Haley. Looking forward to reading them (both me and my W)

By the way, how would you handle this?
She agreed to close the last loop (a professional networking site) but we had to fight about it. Her career is very important to her, but it was easy to be contacted by people through this network.

Is her excuse (it's strictly professional) a logical/valid one?
Or does she now just have to do anything I say?

She feels like she is loosing her identity and she feels like I'm treating her like a child.

Sorry for all my questions, but you're much more experienced then I am. My W shows little to no signs of withdrawal of OM.
My gut tells me that either she's still in contact, or she's just planning to lay low for a while and wants to pick it back up in time.

What signs should I look for?

We are having arguments about this for almost two months now, so that's the only 'excuse' for not having 'time' to grieve or go into withdrawal. (maybe I'm gaslighting myself now)

Can anyone shed light on this and provide help?

There could still be contact. In fact, you should expect it unless you can prove otherwise.

Do you have spyware on all her devices??

Do not voice your suspicions to her BTW.

IB is Independent Behavior. This is the opposite of POJA (never do anything without the enthusiastic agreement of your spouse) which is a necessary ingredient for a good marriage.

Your W was commiting IB by having a relationship with the OM against your wishes prior to M and early in M.

When we say a person is still wayward in recovery (when NC has been confirmed), it is because they are still clinging to their IB and/or SSL.

You're being gaslit here.

Your W has been gaslighting you your entire M. It is very very clear to see throughout the things you have said on this entire thread.

She's not clinging to her IB. The opposite. We spend almost every hour of the last two months together working from home.
This is why I'm afraid that when she goes back to working in the office that she will have her period of withdrawal of OM

Yes I know. I took action and changed her login account and password and going let her access it under my supervision.

You just gave a great example of IB not 2 posts ago. lol. Yes she is still committing IB.

If she was following POJA, there would be no arguing or talk about "losing her identity".

I'm pretty sure I've already posted it elsewhere on the thread but these are the problems I see:

1) Poly needed (this is standard advice for a WS who will only admit to an EA but they had opportunity for a PA. Most WS will only admit to an EA when the opposite is true.)

2) Exposure to OM's BW - you said you are pretty sure she didn't read your FB message. That's not going to work. She needs to be exposed to. Leaving this gaping hole will backfire on you.

3) Her IC. The talk about "losing her identity" and feeling like she's "being treated like a child" doesn't surprise me. That is exactly the kind of talk you hear from someone who is getting IC. Along with the other language you've used in this thread. It's clear to me your W gaslights you and uses her childhood and other issues to play the victim card.

4) There must be a way that you don't have transparency if you are questioning NC at this point. Maybe it is at the job, even though I think you gave conflicting information about in the thread. This was a 10-year affair where she made contact presumably part of the time at work. I'm not sure how you can resolve this but this again, will probably backfire on you, if she has unfettered access to email and social media at her workplace.

I'm not going to be back to argue any of these points with you. It's up to you to figure out how to resolve these things but my prediction is that there will be more d-days in your future if they aren't resolved.

I have no clue what all the abbreviations in your last posts mean.
IC?
NC?
She has unlimited access at her job to different computers if she really wanted to. The majority of the contact with OM was initiated at her job via a messaging app on her personal phone, but she used her work email to talk to him a lot too.

Her personal phone number has been changed, work phone number too, work email is changed, personal email is shut down. All social networks have been shut down. I'm still looking for loopholes, advice is welcome.

I will take up your advice about the other things. Thanks for helping.

What should be the workflow when my W feels the need to contact OM in the future?
Should she immediately contact me when she feels the urge?
If yes, how should I react? What do I literally have to say if this happens?

You really need to expose to OMBW. Can you hire a PI to track her down?

The OMBW is your biggest support to keep this affair from starting up again.

OM and OMW are LAT. I do not expect any support from OMW at all.
They basically have an open marriage.
On top of that, I have no proof of the meet-ups and the chats are all childish and playful, but no proof of adultery. The adultery and the EA was happening in my W's fantasies.
You can tell me I'm gaslighting myself, but I have no black on white proof of anything that would stand in court.

She met OM at her job. That is the reason I don't have transparency. She has the authority at work to invite anyone into a meeting room. (OM does not work there, and has nothing to do with the firm, W invited him)

Financial issues make changing jobs or informing HR extremely difficult.

Is there, in your experience, a way that OM could get a restraint order from her job without her getting fired or creating very awkward situations?

Please understand, I want to save my marriage. I do not want to lose our house and everything we worked for in the last 15 years.

I need help writing another exposure letter to OMW.
Still no reply, pretty sure she didn't get/read it. I tracked down her work email instead of her FB.

I have very few evidence to back up my story.
How should I go about this?

The EA was happening in my W's fantasies. I have no proof of that. She admitted this to me and I have read her secret journal. That journal is destroyed. (Yes, that's a mistake, but I can't take it back...)

They had a lot of contact/talks via social apps and mail. The mails on itself were playful but acceptable among close friends, depending on your morals.

They met up a few times behind our backs. My W admitted this to me but I have no proof whatsoever this actually happened.

So the 'hard evidence' are my W confessions, and a few social media talks that I could have too with female friends. (no worries, we adjusted our views about opposite sex friendships by now).

What should I write her?

My W wrote an emotional end contact letter to M. I was gaslighting myself that this was fine. She did tell him that she needed to break off contact, but that she will always love and miss him. Should she write a new letter, this time following the rules of dr harley? Or will this stimulate contact?

Yes, she should write a new letter. Her letter left the door WIDE open to reinitiate contact. By saying she will always love him, she gave him the green light to contact her again. That letter was also very hurtful to you. She needs to follow the format.

When did she send the no contact letter?

Two months ago. No contact since (to my knowledge).
Been monitoring contact ever since.

Can't the OM perceive this new no contact letter as a cry for help or as her first initiative to re-initiate contact?
I'm not looking for an excuse to not do this, I'm looking for communication flaws. I do not want OM to be thinking she's using the second no-contact letter as a test for him to up his efforts.

W is still gas-lighting herself that OM doesn't know about her real feelings because she never exposed them to him. She thinks OM believes they're just soulmates or whatever because nothing sexual happened.

Should she tell him she loves him in the (new) no-contact letter, or just follow example bellow to the letter?
I think it will be very weird that OM gets this after a few months and a romantic break up text, but I don't feel like he really gets what happened.

_______, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that _____ did not deserve.

While I cannot completely repay _____ (BS) for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness.

I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely,

I just went back and skimmed through your entire thread. I am not sure if sending the letter now is productive, but the initial letter should have followed the format you that you pasted at the bottom of the post. She definitely should NOT express any feelings of affection or love to him.

Where are you on this checklist? Which have been done, and which haven't?

Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

W revealed all information without a polly. This is not an option right now because of financial reasons. On top of that, as I've stated before, even is she passes the polly, I will still have my doubts.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

This is done

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

She send a no-contact text that was too emotional, but she clearly stated that she wanted to end the relationship. He replied that he saw it coming, and he wished her well. That's it.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

This is done

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

We're doing this and I have monitoring app on her phone (gps)
She texts me when she arrives at her POI

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

Have full access to bank accounts

_____Spend leisure time together.

This went well in the beginning, but we are back to arguing a lot. That's entirely my fault for bringing the affair back up every day. I just can't seem to shut up about it.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

She met OM at her job, but he can only enter the building with her approval. Records of visitors are kept, so I'll have proof if this happens. He's not a co worker.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

Doesn't apply atm.

_____Allow technical accountability.

Not sure what you mean? I have full access to all of her devices.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.

Exposed to her/mine parents, my brother, her friends, my friends and a few mutual friends. Her sisters don't know yet, but her relationship with them is not well so they're not friends of the marriage.

Send an exposure message to OMW on FB but she never replied so I'm sure by now she doesn't know.
I've weary about the fallout. Potential threats or violence by OM. I'm not afraid for myself, I have a concealed weapon license but I'm scared he might attack my W.
[/quote]

It sounds like you are taking the right steps as far as Extraordinary Precautions go. The work situation is a concern though. No contact for life means FOR LIFE. She might see him at work, get triggered, and you are back to square 1. She should find a new job.

For now, I would not have her send another letter. Instead, spend time recovering your marriage.

How are you doing with your 15 hours of UA time?
What are you doing to reconnect and meet each other's needs?

OM does not have any business at her office and does not live nearby. The only reason he went and met her at her office is because she asked him to come over.

The chance that she will walk in to him in the city is a greater concern for me. Moving is not an option for me.

15 hours of UA are not a problem.
We're going out for dinner, walking, lot's of talks about our love busters/deposits, doing things in the house.
I was neglecting her EN a lot so I'm working hard on that personally.

It sounds like you are trying to talk yourself out of feeling threatened by her job. You tell us that you don't have transparency at her job, BUT then list reasons why you seem to think you SHOULD feel secure.

The fact is, he's a threat at her job. She will need to change jobs. And, really, to give your marriage the greatest chance of recovery, you will need to move. You will need a fresh start, somewhere new.

Find a way to make it an option.

Do not count time discussing lovebusters/deposits as UA.
UA = no relationship talk

Correct. Do things together that meet the important emotional needs you both have. Have you taken the EN survey?

Also, plan getaways on weekends. Actively schedule weekend trips and mini-moons together. These things make massive love bank deposits. Got to make sure you step out of the daily routine to keep things fresh.

Some of this has already been covered in this thread (??). I would take the time to re-read the thread if you haven't already. When I first got here, I re-read my thread multiple times.

IC = individual counseling
NC = No Contact

You don't need to provide evidence to her. Tell her that your W and her H engaged in an affair, and if she has any questions, answer them honestly. You can tell her that your W admitted to the affair and has agreed never to see or talk to her WH again but that you wanted to make her aware of this so that she could watch from her end.

They had a secret romantic relationship outside of their marriages. That is an affair. Don't make this more complicated than it is!

W will always (need to) have a high end job in order to pay for our bills. Having the authority to move around and invite people to the office is a perk that comes with a job on that level. That's a variable that will not change when W works for another company.

I'm not going to demand that she's going to work in (with all due respect) a local book store. We all have certain ambitions in life that make up for who we are. When you lose those dreams and ambitions, you lose much more than your marriage, you lose yourself. I married my W because I like her drive and ambition, locking her up at home, monitoring her every move is not a reality I want to live in.

There's always theory, the advice you're giving me, and reality.
I'm looking for the best of both worlds. I'm not going to give up my business that took 20 years to build, or move away from my family because of an A.

So you are choosing a job over marriage. That's your preogative, but at this site we give marital advice, not job tips.

Leaving a job and moving does not mean giving up a career.

And it doesn't mean locking your wife up at home.
NO one said to do that. Stop with the hyperbolics -- they don't help you none.

You don't have transparency. You won't as long as you stay where you are, doing what you are doing. You admit you fear your wife running into OM around town.

We're not talking "theory" here. This is very much a "reality" that many of us have had to live through. And the reality is, the road to recovery is very narrow. If you don't follow it closely, you will fall off the path and never reach the goal of a happy, romantic marriage that is far better than you can imagine.

Moving is a reality. Changing jobs is a reality. This is what it will take to make it.

If you don't move, your marriage will likely never recover.

Agree with Prisca.

Actually, I think the affair still continues given your W's fogginess and because it would be SO EASY for her to continue contact at work.

And because the OMBW still hasn't been exposed to...

The list goes on and on. Back with more...

The NCL is an EP and part of just compensation but it also can be indicative of the WS's seriousness about ending the affair.

The fact that your WW wrote a love letter is a red flag.

It's a red flag on her and a red flag on you. It says something about you that you allowed that to be sent with your approval, a note telling her affair partner that she loves him and will miss him. You should have put your foot down and said, no, I don't agree with that, that would be incredibly disrespectful and hurtful to me.

Your WW has this high level job, however, you can't afford a poly?

That doesn't make much sense.

As long as you have this attitude, you should just accept the OM will be part of your M. He's already been part of it for the last 10 years and there's nothing to stop it from continuing.

Don't believe me? If you ever do poly your WW, ask her if NC has been broken. I would be willing to be real money the affair continues.

This is probably my last post on this thread. I can't continue posting to people for weeks and weeks who are not serious about following Marriage Builders.

You have given a lot of conflicting information on this thread. I know because I painstakingly just went back through and read it.

1) Does OM live 'thousands of miles away' as you originally said, or does he live in your town (since you are concerned about running into him)?

2) Did she meet OM in college or did she meet him at work?

These are things that would impact our advice on whether she would need to quit her job or relocate, obviously.

3) If he does live locally (which you seem to indicate with your concern he could stop in at your wife's work or show up around town), then why are you having such a hard time exposing to his wife???

I have already pointed out that your responses to the list of EP's I posted on Page 1 are inaccurate. Something is just very fishy about the information you are giving us...

You have been fighting with posters since page 1 about what you 'can't' do. The bottom line is that you are choosing to sweep some of these things under the rug to maintain the status quo in your life. For instance, you are willing to negotiate a lack of transparency at W's work in order to maintain your current lifestyle. That's your choice. You know what they say, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. Posters have spent 14 pages leading you to water, but you can make the choice whether to drink or not.

It is very telling that you don't know abbreviations or even what 'UA' stands for. It means you have spent little to no time actually learning this program.

I, like SusieQ, would bet real money that your wife is still in contact with OM, or will be in the near future. You have made it clear to us AND HER that you are willing to cut corners and negotiate your marriage for a variety of reasons. This IS going to come back to bite you.

Good luck.

Your environment has a great impact on your emotions and thinking. Your memories are tied to your environment.

Every time she goes to work, a part of you will wonder and worry. You may try to shake off those feelings or bury them, but they will remain. There will always be doubt in your mind.

That alone will hinder your recovery -- the affair will be at the forefront of your feelings from here on out. Nevermind the real and dangerous possibility of her running into OM again.

Even your home and your job is full of memories of the affair ... The first place you learned of her affair. The many places you fought. The place where you sat by yourself while your heart wrenched and tore itself to pieces while thinking of what she did. That one place where she said that particularly awful and painful remark. It will all linger over you like a dense cloud.

Moving to a new environment will be like wiping the slate clean with a fresh new start.

She send it without letting me read it.
I asked before if I should let her write a new NCL? Care to know your advice.

She told me after the situation cooled down a few weeks later (after sending the NCL) that she regrets not sending a strict NCL and I'm pretty sure she'll agree to sending a new one, but I don't want to send a mixed message to OM (make him think she wants to reach out to him)

We made a lot of progression since D-day. I'm very confident she wouldn't send that type of NCL today, but what is done is done...

It all comes down to extraordinary precautions, not willpower or motivation.

**EDIT**

This thread has become a needless distraction to our forum. If you are not here to use Marriage Builders concepts and plan to continue to mock and disrespect posters, we will lock this thread.

Did you have a question about the MB program? If not, we will lock this thread.

I'd rather have this thread deleted.

Please Remove my thread/posts