I will try to make this long story brief but I know you need history.
I was married to my first H at 19 - first sexual partner. Divorced 4 years later due to his drug addiction, starting mental and emotional abuse - I was not sticking around for physical to start. Had one other sex partner I dated, then met my now DH. I had decided at this point that sex was overated and my DH had all the other qualities I wanted so it did not matter that I didn't feel "urges" I had never felt them before - I decided it was stuff movies are made from.
My DH was never demonstrative, never showered me with affection or bought me gifts to let me know he was thinking of me. I did all those things for him - it made me feel good. I was active with him recreationally but he never wanted to do things that I enjoyed with me, so I became very independent when doing my own things.
I tried lots of different ideas, we talked some about the fact that I wanted him to open up more to me, be more affectionate and do things together. He always said okay but never followed through.
Enter OM. I worked with someone who eventually became my A. We were on again off again for 4 years. My H knew basically from the start but put up with it for some unknown reason (probably, I lied about a lot of it.) My A turned me on in ways I had never known. He opened up a woman in me I had never knew existed except in the movies (Normal I think from what I have read). Anyway, I ended the PA over a year ago but still had contact (so EA continued) I ended the EA in September 09 with NC. I wanted to try to find that woman in me without breaking up my family. My DH and I have started reading HNHN together. He read it 3 years ago and is very discouraged that it didn't work then - he didn't follow any of the advice. I say it's different now because I am the one who found MB and am trying to live by the guidelines and am more open to discussion. He feels he cannot change who he is - he associates affection with sex - he knows that but still doesn't see how I need affection (non sexual affection) to get turned on. I do not feel like a "woman" with him. Will I ever get even a portion of those feelings - can he and I for that matter be trained to bring out what I need to give him SF. Before my A I was faking SF with him - he knows that now. For years I just did it because I thought it my duty as his wife. Now I can't seem to get the nerve or the urge. Help!!!

Is your husband getting support for the trauma from your abuse? I think this is a triage situation and that getting him some help to deal with your emotional abuse may be the first order of duty.
Then, after he stabilizes and can think more clearly, a decison can be made as to whether the marriage is worth saving.
You mention very little about being concerned for him and his pain. Why is that?

Zelmo - thanks for your response - I was ready for some 2x4's. I am extremely sorry for the all the pain I have caused my family, especially him. He knows that. I have exposed to everyone we know. We discuss how we can move forward on an almost daily basis. We are working at saving our marriage. He says he is fine, he does not want to go to a counselor. I am now an open book to him and he unbelievably trusts me. He knows that I will never put him or our family through this again. Believe me I take full responsibility for my actions. He has never been one to show his feelings, he does not bear his heart and soul to anyone. He especially sees no use for talking with a stranger. I feel it would do us a world of good but have not pushed it at this point as I do not feel it is my place to force him to do anything.
He wants a sexual relationship with me. But at the same time he wants it to be genuine, not forced or faked in anyway. That is where my question lies.

What steps have you taken to shore up your H's faith and trust in you? Nothing can proceed until you have taken gargantuan steps to alleviate the elephant in the room. Have you taken a polygraph? Handed over all your passwords? Check in with him every day so he knows where you are? Ensured that you will never run into OM? What else?

The next thing you need to do is either sign up for phone counseling with the Harleys, or pay to go to their MB weekend.

You have a LONG way to go before your H will ever care if you are happy. But counseling with the Harleys is probably your best first step.

Thanks Cat. Like I said I am an open book - he knows all and sees all. I am also very chatty - he knows if I am not talking I am hiding something (which no longer happens - I have no need to hide). I would willingly take a polygraph - he has not asked.

What about the other stuff I asked about?

As I commented to Zelmo, my H sees no need for counseling. He is not interested in sharing his feelings with a stranger. I have asked for him to attend MC with me but do not see it as my place to force him to do anything.

You said that it will be a Long time before my H cares about my happiness. According to him, he is fine. He trusts me and does want me to be happy. He wants to work together to make our marriage work - whatever it takes. But he does not believe that he can change "who he is" All this is directly quoted from him.

Lizzy,
My FWH was also this way. Prior to his EA, he looked at SF as the only way I could show him that I cared and loved him. But that's not the way things are now. In fact, we are on the same page as to how often we have SF. The reason that he felt that was was I was not meeting all his other EN's. Once I started doing that, he stopped looking at SF as the only way for me to show him that I loved him.

You and your H desperately need to complete the EN's questionnaire.
JoJo

So now I guess my question still is... is there hope for us to find SF, even though we did not have it before my A? Have others been in a similar situation?

Realistically, despite what he says. how could he be just fine? I'mot saying there is anything you can do in terms of getting him help if he is unwilling. And, I don't know him , so this is presumptuous, althouhg I think it is well founded. But, if he is fine, I'd be really surprised.
How could he be fine if he wants you to desire him, and you do not? He has concrete proof that you prefer the other guy to him. That's a helluva painful place to be for him, right?

You should do the Love Buster questionnaire first. If he says no, do trial and error to figure out what YOU do that he doesn't like. You have to stop these habits first. Then do the same for ENs.

Sounds counterintuitive, but until you start thinking about HIM first, instead of yourself, you will not WANT SF with him.

Work on the LBs.

Well, exactly what is it about SF with the other guy that was so much better? If it is equipment related or some physical characteristic that the other guy has, no, he can't change himself.
If their funamental personalities are different and you find his type to besuperior, no, your H can't change that?
What is so much better about the other guy in this area? If it is a willingness to be affectionate and open, I suppose your H could change to some extent. But, don't you see that by cheating on your H, you have made that even les likely or harder to happen.
It is the irony of cheating, isn't it?What you may have desired , intimacy, is made even more difficult to achieve as the result of your actions.
But, apparently, sometimes the BS gets over it and is motivated to work on the marriage.
BTW, do you think your H does not have areas that he would like to see you change? Maybe put yourself in his place and imagine if you would be willing to change for someone that has betrayed you.

JoJo - your response helps - at least there is a light at the end of the tunnel. According to him (and i have to believe him) I was meeting all his EN's but he still sees affection and sex as the same thing. The only reason I say I believe I was meeting his EN's prior to my A is that he was so quick to forgive me - his Love Bank was overflowing from how I treated him- so I guess my A was not enough to completely deplete it. Don't 2x4 me on that one - it is speculation on my part. We did do the EN's questionnaire. He only numbered his responses and did not write his feelings. He took his questionnaire back saying he would finish it but that was weeks ago and I am still waiting.
He has always been the type of person who lives day to day - not looking forward or back - but not really living life either. Just goes with the flow.

Zelmo - I agree that is has to be painful for him. He admits that some days are worse than others but says as long as I am with him he will be fine. I just don't know what to do. I need him to meet my EN's. But I am not in a position because of my A to ask for much. I wish I had found this site prior to my stupidity. It could have been very useful for us. He will be the first to tell you I have always met his ENs. He thought things up until my A were fine. Unfortunately they had not been fine for me for quite a while before my A - but I could not figure out why - until coming to MB.
Moving forward I want to continue to meet his needs, I want him to start meeting mine - I just don't know where to go from here.

Wow, you're really assuming alot about your husband. From YOUR point of view... it sounds like your husband has disconnected. Apparently he WAS interested awhile back if he was reading HSHN.

You said:


Do you still work with this person? Why/how did the A end? You say your husband basically knew from the beginning. How do you know this? Was your adultery exposed? To whom? By whom? Was a NC letter written and mailed by your H? Has your H ever posted here? Is OM married?

There seems to be a lot to this story that has been left out.

Cat - have not tried the LB questionnaire - will give that a shot. And you are right I do need to put him first a lot more. I am working on that. I always did but I know the damage I caused has really damaged all that I put into my M before.
Zelmo - It really is just affection and conversation that I need. My A was not physically any different than my H. I do understand the irony of cheating - now through MB I know what I need, what I have lacked but because of my actions I have no right to insist on changes. I really screwed up! I have also had the conversation with my H of what he would like to see different from me - he insistst that he would not change a thing. I know I am not perfect - he is just not one to make waves. I will continue to meet his EN's hoping to get what I need in the future.
Peggy - I ended my A myself. I sent a NC letter with my H's approval. My H knew from basically the beginning because I told him. It took a while for it to come out who the A was but he knew of the A. I exposed my A to my family and friends, he exposed me to his family and friends. My H has never posted here - he is extremely introverted when it comes to "hashing" out issues. We tried MC a while back during one of my false recoveries and my H ended it - he was not comfortable. Yes the OM is married and his BW knows everything. I know because she contacted me.
Make no mistake I am not in love with the OM- I thought I was but that fog has cleared. My H is where my focus is. I truly want to make things work - just having problems in the affection/SF area. DH says he is fine with the way things are - he is not miserable. I on the other hand want a fulfilling married life (preferably with my DH) in all aspects including SF. I guess I just need time - keep working the EN's and avoiding LB's - hopefully we will get there. Anything else?

You sound rational and articulate, L.
So, why weren't you able to figure out that this was about as destructive a thing as you could have possibly done, (not to mention cruel).
Have you thought about getting therapy to help you figure out what led you to this? Maybe that would help your H if he sees that your are doing the work on yourself.
I think the crap we are exposed to by the media, glamorizing affairs and minimizing their impact is influencing folks to just cjheat if you are not completely happy. And, there is this weird notion that we are meant to be always happy and fulfilled. Where does that come from?

And since affection and conversation are your top ENs, it's important that he understand you need *affection* and not a roll in the hay, is that it?

I just want to make sure I'm understanding why this is important.

If my understanding is accurate, then ask him:
How about we hug and kiss sometimes?
How about we snuggle on the sofa while we watch a movie or the news?
How about we spoon when we sleep?
How about I massage your feet and give you a shampoo?

If we do all those things, then we'll never have to play 'hide the sausage' again and your SF needs will be met, right?

I think the light may start to go on for him.
Some people think affection and SF are the same because they're both physical expressions of love.

I was thinking that she meant that for him, physical affection had to lead to sex and that he was not forthcoming with it unless it would do so. I am sure he understands the distinction between the two.
Or , that he felt sex fulfilled the same role as affection.

Yeah I could be totally out in the weeds about "to him sf and affection are the same". I might be coming at it from the wrong stance entirely. But if to him, SF fills the affection role, I think hypothetically turning the tables on him might help him see that they are different.

Just as he wont' be satisfied by a shampoo and massage, she's not satisfied by SF.

Peggy - My H read a lot of books 3 years ago but never took them to heart - never acted on any of the principals taught. He sees that now. Like I said when I began reading HNHN and he picked it up to read - he became very discouraged. When I asked why - he said "I read that book years ago and I didn't do what it taught." Basically saying he didn't change then what makes me think he will change now. I told him things are different now because I am following the principals too - we can do it together.
Zelmo - thanks for your help - you are right on target! My H does not show affection unless he knows it will lead to sex. And then it's more like here's a hug, lets get naked....
Thanks too for telling me I sound rational and articulate - I always thought I was too. I grew up in a christian house where A's were frowned upon. I threw a guy out of my house about 12 years ago because he cheated on his wife and left her with 5 kids to deal with all alone. Very hypocritical I know. I cried every day when the EA portion of my A started - I did not want to have those feelings for OM - but I did. It was not an overnight fling - it was months of OM and I discussing what was wrong and right in our M's. We were friends first.
I was very disenchanted with my M because my H became so closed off from me. Like I said I tried lots of different ideas to get him to open up to me. Looking back he says once he had me (meaning once we were married) he figured he didn't have to work so hard to keep me (his words, not mine). Whenever he wanted to do something together I was up for anything - when I asked him to join me in an activity I liked, the answer was "No thanks - you go ahead" When our children were born he was not an attentive father - he was always nervous around babies (I thought things would be different if they were his own). Even to this day there is not much of a bond between him and our boys. I'm not trying to make excuses - just trying to shed light on where I was coming from.
I spent many days trying to figure out why I was so unhappy - I "had it all" - nice house, healthy children, good job, a hard working husband.... If I had found MB 10 years I would have known why - but I didn't! I became a "cake eater" I figured (despicably) that I could get what I needed from OM and go home to my children... I knew I was a cake eater before MB - I tried to get off the fence many times but when the depression would hit I would go running back for emotional support. I moved out for 3 months (did not allow OM to move with me - wanted to be sure it was what I wanted). Realized I could not live with myself if I broke up 2 families for my "happiness" Knowing full well that the OM did not have what I need to be "happy" I rationalized alot!!!!
And here I am today - trying to make things right. What stinks is that because of my actions I have no right to ask him for anything -
As far as therapy - I have gone to a couple of counselors - one was so awful I figured her out day one. She pretty much read straight from my college Psych 101 book. Came to find out at the end that her marriage recovery rate was less than 3% - would have been nice to know that from the start. The other was not a "marriage" counselor - I went for personal therapy - she was great. But in the end I came to realize I know what is right - what I need to do. My H and I kind of laugh that every morning when I wake up I have my own "personal" counseling sessions - I ask myself questions and answer them how I believe a counselor would. It's quirky I know but it really helps - and believe me I am totally hard on myself as the "counselor" if I need to be!
Now what? Just keep plugging away - is there anything else you can offer. Your questions are great - they give me more things to think about! I love this site, so glad I found all of you
I

Lizzy2 - My BH also lacked in the affection department. The 'hug and get naked' comment resonated, but strangely since the A that has changed. For my part, I started to work harder to meet his need for SF even when I didn't feel like it. He got his fullfillment and eventually I was getting mine more often too. Now, when we're in a good place the affection is there as long as I'm meeting his SF. In doing so, I actually came to enjoy meeting that need for him 1 - because it made him feel good and 2 - his feeling good made me feel good and that translated into the bedroom, IYKWIM!

Lizzy2: I'm wondering why you don't think you have a right to ask for anything? I don't agree with that at all. I realize that you feel rightfully guilty for your actions, but that doesn't mean that your M should become all give and no take. If you truly want your M to recover, then there has to be give and take on both ends. You shouldn't have to give up the hope of having your EN's met by your H. In fact, if you do, the likelihood that your M will not truly R at all is very great. You may end up in another A because you have accepted the fact that you have no right to have your EN's met because of what you have done. Go back and re-read SAA, because I really don't think Dr. Harley supports what you are saying here at all.

I have a few questions.

Is the OM better looking than your BH?

Are you physicaly atracted to your BH?

Does the idea of providing you BH with SF discust or put you off?

You had a 4yr physical affair with a man, your husband knew OM was getting regularly from you what he (your BH) wanted most from you but you denied him...... And he just put up with it?

Is it possable that what made SF more pleasing to you was the wrongness and excitement of it all...IE the "Bad Boy" affect?

Have YOU sought out counselling for YOU about your issues?



Even without answering these questions I can tell you this.
If your BH'S # emotional need is SF, (as most mens are) and you cant provide him with this at a frequency that is acceptable to him. And with genuine enthusiasum....

Then ultamatly your marriage is doomed.

However, Dr. Harley has a saying... Fake it till ya Make it.

Stop sitting around asking "Why wont BH take care of my needs, so maybee I might feel like taking care of his"

Start taking care of his needs, wich is SF (And it may mean, "here is a hug, lets get naked") and see, if maybee, just maybee, BH starts automatically meeting your needs for affection and conversation (Typically a womans #1 need)

Okay everyone I get that I have to meet his needs so that he can meet mine. I was doing that before my A. I met his needs for SF, even when I wasn't in the mood. I met his need for recreational companionship. I fulfilled all of his EN's - he was not fulfilling mine. He freely admits that. MY love bank was over flowing for him. But his continually kept losing points as he did not try to meet any of my needs. At the time I did not know about MB so I tried to talk with him about what I felt was lacking, he would change for a day or so, then back to old habits. He is not a bad person, he just didn't see how important it was for me since he was feeling great about everything. Now that I made the mistake of having the A, it is hard for me to say this is what I need because everyone here says that he has been so wronged and betrayed that he won't be able to meet them now anyway - at least not for a while. I see that as putting us right back to step 1. I am again meeting his needs except for SF because we both agree we do not want me to fake it as I did before my A. We want it to be genuine. Which means he needs to build up units in his Love bank - which was my original question.
Gack1 - my H is very nice looking (could use a little exercise, but couldn't we all). Was the OM better looking? No. Am I physically attracted to my H? I used to be, and some days more so than others. Right now thinking about SF with him does put me off. I have been working on DR Harley's ideas of imagining being with him without really being with him - it is helping a little. Yes, my H put up with it. He told me a couple of times to move out or stop the A. He never forced the issue. I made several false recoveries as I said before only to find myself so depressed - not realizing it was withdrawl - and I would go back to OM. And yes, it is possible that it was the "bad boy" syndrome that made sex with OM fulfilling - I have often wondered that myself. Yes, I have sought couselling for myself.

Would anyone liks a shot of good ol' justification??

Lizzy ~ I've read your thread and it SCREAMS of justification.

If it's this obvious on a forum full of people who don't know you, I am sure it's glaringly obvious to your H. And if you want a quick way to drain his lovebank, well, this is a GREAT way to do that.

If you were meeting all of his ENs as well as you say you were, you wouldn't have had an A. Period.

Now, if you are ready to stop justifying and telling us all how well you meet his ENs, we can get to work. But it kinda sounds like you don't need us, you meet your husband's ENs so well and always have.

<shrug> So...I am confused.

Good

Ok

What changes?

Why?

Exactly what turns you off about the idea of SF with your BS?
Don't say you dont know, becouse you do. You may may not want to admit it to yourself, but you do know what is causing this.


That seems hard to belive.

You have sought counselling, but are you activly seeing a counseller now and trying to resolve this issue?

I agree 100%

I also hear Entitlement and resentment for her husband.

I hope I misunderstand the meaning of this, because as I'm reading it I totally disagree.

I had a neglectful husband. I didn't know about MB back then but I knew somebody had to change first and since was the unhappy party I figured I may as well change and I hoped that would entice him to change.

I went an entire year without turning him down once for SF; it was my "Just say Yes" campaign. I worked full time (making as much as he did), I did the house cleaning, I fed and bathed the kids, I tucked them in, I packed the diaper bag for daycare the next day. I did the laundry. I went to as many of his work-related events as I could (he was a band director) and brought the kids when appropriate. I set up date nights and arranged a babysitter. I busted my tail.

He was happy as a clam and I was miserable. When I brought it up to him, and asked if we could go to counseling, his response was "Go if you want to".

I was ripe for an A, and I knew it. Even though I didn't know what ENs were back then, I think I was doing a pretty good job of meeting his.

Now I'll admit that Lizzy's view of her wonderful self and her lazy husband might be biased. But it might not be. And clearly she was ripe for an affair, too.

I'm sorry you all feel I am trying to justify my actions - I am not. I have been answering the questions you all asked - the best I can. The answers that I gave about my meeting his EN's were based on conversations with my DH - he agrees that I was meeting his EN's - I wish he were here to tell you that he said that but he is not. In fact he told me less than a month ago that "even if we don't have sex again (he would really like to) but if we don't he just wants to be together, he is not miserable. D is not in his language." His words people, not mine!!!!!
I don't want to go around repeating all the details of my A - I want to move on from that - you all keep asking questions relating to it so I am answering them. I want to make things work with my H - he wants to make things work with me. My original question was.... I rarely felt fulfilled in my sexual encounters prior to my A, with anyone!!! - I want to feel that with my H. Is it possible to reach SF with someone you never felt that way about before. What do I need to do to find that "woman" inside me?
Gack - you asked what puts me off so much about SF with my H. It is the fact that for close to 8 years I gave sex freely to him because I thought it was my duty as his wife. I rarely enjoyed it. It became a chore. Why was it a chore? I already told you but you all tell me it is just me making justifications for my behavior. Neither he nor I want it to be like that again. I do not know how to teach him how to be affectionate and communicative so that we can reach SF... together!!!

Thanks Turtlehead - Glad someone else can identify.

Lizzy I can understand how SF can become a chore. I'm the BS in my sitch, but my WXH sounds like you describe yours. For him, SF=affection, and he was not very affectionate. And affection was one of my top ENs, though I didn't know about ENs at the time. Obviously by the "X", you can tell that I didn't resolve this. I didn't cheat, but what I did was also wrong. So for what NOT to do, here's what I did.

At first I complained. He would say we aren't newlyweds anymore and I should grow up and act my age. Then I complained more and he said I was nagging. To shut me up, he said he'd be affectionate during SF. The trouble was, he thought the actual act of sex was affection, while I did not. I wish I knew about MB then because in reality, we were both right but at the time we were both stubborn. In the last 10 years of my M, if he touched me anywhere other than my boobs or my crotch, it was by accident. He last held my hand pre-1995. The SF he had with me could have been easily done with a blow-up doll. Heck yes, it was a chore.

So I made the next mistake - I figured since he wouldn't budge on the affection, I wasn't going to trade SF (chore) for what he termed affection. I didn't outright deny him - because sometimes it was quicker and easier to just get it over with - but I would go to bed earlier than him and generally just not make myself available to him. Before I knew it, we hardly ever had it anymore.

Mistake number 3: I still had an unmet top EN and felt a great deal of dissatisfaction in my M as a result. This is where a wayward begins to justify their cheating. What I did instead was immerse myself in other things - my career, my hobbies, my son's activities etc. I actually ended up with a very fulfilling, satisfied life that I enjoyed very much. Somewhere along the way I resigned myself to an affectionless marriage and though once in a while it brought me down, for the most part I could live with it. In other words, I developed a very independent lifestyle - no SF, no affection, just shared responsibilities for our house and DS. Heck, sometimes days would go by that we wouldn't even see each other - just communicate by notes on the fridge (e.g. buy milk).

Can you see how that would create a scenario where he might be vulnerable to an affair?

Despite it all, I was shocked that he actually had one. But I see it now. I do wish I knew about MB way back in my initial complaining days. He would not have agreed to see a counsellor, but from what I've read, the Harleys can guide you through solutions to these problems. Had I called back then, I'm sure I wouldn't have made all those other mistakes. They could have helped my first of all understand that to him, SF really did equal affection and that for me to get him to expand on it, I needed a way to communicate my ENs in a way he could understand.

Sorry for the long-winded un-answer, but as I do believe this was central to my marital breakdown, I do think you should consult the Harleys on this.

Sorry you disagree, turtlehead, but I stand by my statement.

Here on MB we talk ALOT about "feelings following actions". This is TRUE, not the other way around. The other way around leads to AFFAIRS.

Additionally, Lizzy was NOT meeting her H's need for O&H. She was not meeting using the PORH. She was NOT delivering "extraordinary care", as Dr. Harley tells us marriages MUST be based on this. IF she was, she would not have had an affair.

Lizzy, are you being HONEST with your H about what you like and dislike in your SF relationship?

I am sure this can be horribly hard, humiliating and embarrassing. But I have a strong feeling that you are not being completely honest with your H when you have SF with him ~ if you do love him like you say you do, you enjoy meeting his ENs, but STILL don't like SF with him, could it ben<the dreaded word>...technique???

This may be resentment, and probably a little (or a lot) of history re-righting.

I would expect nothing less from you, I enjoy your posts and insights quite a lot. You don't say something unless you've thought it through.

For a while, and then the giver gets "all gave out" and the taker becomes super resentful. At least, mine did. In my case, meeting of my XH's ENs didn't make me any less susceptible to an affair, it just made me resentful.

Thinking back, you might be right. I may have felt more loving when I first acted more loving.. but it's been so long now (17 years) that I don't really remember for sure. I do know that in my case I went on giving too long and it damaged me. All I can remember is the seething resentment, and anguish that I did not matter and that I could not change things by myself.

TOTALLY agree about PORH and extraordinary care. Also POJA, though you didn't mention it.

Lizzy, have you and your H ever had real counseling? Wherein you sit together and discuss with the counselor what YOU needed in the marriage? Wherein he answered WHY he felt no need to meet those needs of yours? I think we need to get to THIS part of your situation first.

I think it was unfair of you to fake it all those years. Perhaps if you had really brough your dissatisfaction with SF to your husband's attention, he would have made the effort to improve. Same with the lack of affection.
I know many folks think they really did all they could do. But, you never utilized the divorce or seperation options before cheating. If you had, he may have awakened.
I find it hard to believe that if he is relly a good man, as you describe, he would have blown you off if he was made aware of the severityof your dissatisfaction.
Why did you not insist on counseling, or tell him you were getting ready to leave him or that you were contemplating an affair? How could he know you were so unhappy unless you showed him emphatically?

Zelmo, I hope you aren't replying to me because I didn't cheat. I did, however, handle the problem the wrong way. I wrote my post so that perhaps Lizzie could learn something from it - if nothing else what NOT to do

No, I was directing that to Lizzy. Don't know your sitch.

Thanks for all the responses - here goes the answer session!
Tabby - glad I am not alone your information has been extremely helpful! I too wish I had known about MB years ago! Things would definately have turned out different - but now we are trying to change our ending to a positive conclusion for all!
Gack - yes I am working on re-righting history - I am finding out I made a lot of mistakes, my A only being one of them.
Married - you hit on a very important point for me and my H. As I have said he is very introverted - almost shy when it comes to talking about sex and sexual needs. I fell into his not wanting to talk about such things, tried to push it under the rug - I have been trying to change that as well. Talking about such intimate subjects is not easy for either of us. We were brought up in strict households where sex was taboo (until after marriage of course) but none the less it made a huge impact on how we handled ourselves together - slowly we are coming out of our proverbial shells and opening up more discussion. Very hard and sometimes humiliating but necessary none the less.
Also, you pointed out I was not meeting O&H and PORJ &POJA but I didn't know MB then - didn't know I was not meeting those needs. My H is the one who told me he was happy and I was fulfilling his needs. That comes straight from him, so I believe him - I don't think we would be together right now if I hadn't done something right early on in our M.
Cat - we did go to counseling a while back. As I said he ended it because he did not want to hear what he had done (I was the unfaithful one, not him) When he got cornered by the counselor to step up and face what he had done to push me away-the counseling ended. We actually talked a little 2 nights ago about trying counselling again so hopefully that door is starting to open up.
Zelmo- I know now that faking it all those years was wrong. At the time I thought I was doing the right thing by being a "good wife" to my H. I didn't want to get into an A - it just "happened" The first chapter of HNHN pretty much sums up my entire existence at that time. I made lots of justifications, and rationalizations. But when you are in the middle of the emotionality of it all, you don't see that. That is why I am working so hard now to "re-right" history.

Just so that what I write won't be misinterpreted, let me say that an affair is absolutely, positiviely, inexcusably wrong. Period.

You mention that you were brought up in a very strict household where sex was taboo until marriage. My H and I were brought up in strict househols as well, although my parents had a pretty health view of sex. I know they enjoyed it. But our church was VERY emphatic on the subject. They were also emphatic about things like submission, sacrificing for others, putting others' needs before your own, etc. All nice in certain situations. But in my reading I have found that some of that is oppositional to MB, though of course I had never even heard of MB then, so how was I supposed to do it? So for years, both of us remained silent, sacrificed, put our needs aside, etc., thinking we were living a godly marriage. We were trying to live what we had heard. And then there was what I call the "God loophole." We are aupposed to rely on God to meet our needs, not another person, so we shouldn't have any expectations of our spouse. You can see how this thinking can twist a marriage when takento the exttme.

I say all that to say that if that sounds like your story, I can see how things drifted farther into peril over the years. No, the affair didn't just happen - it was a choice. But as far as SF goes, ignorance and embarassment are just as likely to be the culprits of your past situation as anything else. But now you HAVE found MB. Now you DO have some tools regarding how to handle the affair aftermath and how to improve your marriage. Use those tools. Find out exactly what your H's EN's are. Avoid lovebusters. Practice PORH. Try phone counseling with the Harley's. And if you feel that resentment creeping in, deal with it. Bitterness will kill you marriage (and sometimes your soul) just as sure as anything else will.

Well I am glad you see these things (and Lizzy I am sorry if this is a slight threadjack, but I think it's fundamentally important to ALL recoveries)...

turtlehead, I hesitated yesterday in saying this to you, but from the response above I feel more comfortable saying it...do you see NOW how you meeting all of your H's needs, doing EVERYTHING for him, going on a "one-year, all-out, "need-meeting" mission" (so to speak), probably actually CONTRIBUTED to your H's entitled attitdue, which in turn led him to feel "entitled" to an A?

<I'll wait a minute here while some of you pick yourselves up off the floor, for I know this is not a popular, or at least much recognized, dynamic of affair recovery.>

It has taken me a very long time, with a lot of reflection to realize that I did this too. Prior to the A and our (not-so-easy) recovery, I did the same things you describe in meeting my H's ENs, except I did it for much longer than a year. In fact, I probably did that for most of our M.

I did much of it with a decent attitude, but I also did alot of it with resentment because I was afraid of his bad attitude if I left it for him or asked him for help.

I thought I was meeting his ENs (even though I didn't know what ENs were at the time), but what I was really doing was trying to manage his feelings for him. And this leads to entitlement. As in, one spouse feeling entitled to feeling good at all costs.

This is a dynamic that CAN easily be confused for EN meeting, but it's a HUGE, HUGE mistake. IMHO, the key to avoiding "teaching" one spouse that entitlement is ok is making sure the the other spouse does not feel resentment when meeting ENs. And of course, that involves using PORH, POJA, etc.

Hope this makes sense because for me, once I realized MY PART in this, I have been much more eager to stop it. And it's been hugely beneficial for my M.

I think you missunderstand.

History re-wrighting/re-righting (However you spell it) is the way a WS justifies there affair. The affair changes there preception of the past and therefore they Re-right history.

A marriage that was good for both before the affair is changed to have been horrable for the WS during and after the affair.

There perception of there own past changes, and to them this is 100% fact. Even when everyone else knows it to be fals.

One common theme is a WS saying that they "Never" loved ther BS. Thats just not true, it is a blatent re-write of history, and usually clears slowly with the fog. But may take years.



Another one, almost allways perpetuated by WW's is "The sex with BH was horrable, I hated it, and never even desired it, I did not think I would ever desire it from anyone. But sex with OM was wonderfull and woke up needs that I never new I had and I will never feel that way about BH"

This, like the other history re-writes, like the Justification, like the entitlement, is all part of the FOG. It eventually clears and the WW sees her sexual past with her BH as it actually was. And usually there past turns out to have been normal, and preaty good for both. But the affair and it's FOG changed there preception of it, untill it was completley purged from there system.

Gack - ohhh sorry I did totally misunderstand - thanks for clarification on your end. My idea of re-righting (which I like better than your idea) is to right what I have wronged. Yours would be re-writing which means changing what was true. To some extent you are correct - however I never said I never loved my H - I know I did. In fact I have journals from our dating and early marriage years that shows how much I loved him. It also shows how much I held inside what I was missing from him. They also show later on in the M the attempts I made at getting him to see what I was missing - what I needed from him. So not all of my perception is "fog" related but I do see your point.

Hi Lizzy, sorry to hear of your troubles. I have not posted since the upgrade or whatever we are calling it, however I have been reading along. I just wanted to ask you a quick question, did you used to post under the name mutedsparkle? I think that was the name anyway...I may be wrong but your sitch and way of writing/thinking seems really similar, also I think she had 2 sons around that age. Just wondering if you are one and the same as I used to follow that thread.

You mention your attempts early in the marriage at showing your husband what you needed from him. Can you share more on how you tried to express these needs to him? I mean..did you come right out and say, "I need a, b, and c". Or was it more telling him when you were arguing or something similar to that? I am interested because some women say that they can talk to their H about their needs until blue in the face and not get a response. I have also heard that once something bad happens, such as an affair, a man will try to make up for whatever he was not giving wife...or w/d altogether. Do you feel your H is trying finally to give you what you need? I notice you say that he is not upset, but has he tried to change these behaviors that pushed you away to begin with in order to prevent another affair?

Hi Happy - I am not the person of which you speak! I was signed on before the crash as Lizzy but all of my thread was lost.
Basically, in the early years of our M I did not voice my frustration at all - kept everything to myself because I didn't think it was that big of a deal and didn't want to hurt his feelings - but over the years as my frustration continued (welling up inside) I knew I had to tell him. Please note, we NEVER argue. People will say that's impossible I know but it is the case - we have never aruged! If my H feels I have done something that annoys him, he keeps it to himself and he says he is over it the next day. I have said "You need to tell me, so I know what bothers you and I can change my behavior" He says, "It's never a big deal and I'm always over it the next day." So little by little I started not knowing who he was because he would not open up. Besides telling him I need to know what he is thinking and feeling I have told him that I needed more "affection." I know on a few occassions I would point out at movies what I liked between the couples on the screen. I remember telling him I wanted to be the little old couple walking around holding hands that everyone thought was "so cute!" I guess it's possible some things were not clear to him - but he made it sound as if he received my messages, would follow through for a few days, then revert to old habits.
My H is NOW trying to give me what I need - little by little - mostly because I am extremely verbal about everything now. I want there to be no mistake about what I am asking from him. As I said before we are still working on the "sex talk" area - very uncomfortable for both of us - but I suppose we will get there eventually. To be quite honest - I told him I started this thread 2 nights ago and he has been working very hard since then..... even got a sweet text this morning on my cell. I answered back right away and let him know that I loved it!

Sorry about the mix up...not sure why you reminded me of that thread..similar situations I guess. Anyway I have a better idea now that you explained again. My H can be quiet like that. He will be quietly angry and the next day he may get over it..however I have caught on and try not to let it get to the next day. Otherwise, it will be brought up by him at a later date..which I hate. Remember that day? I don't like that. Say what you are upset about already and lets talk, don't wait until weeks or months later!

Glad to hear that you are both making efforts, if you both keep at it you may get to the place you want sooner or later. Thing I would remember is to make sure he isn't truly angry or resentful when he says he isn't. My dad never shows emotion, but I know from years of experience that his sadness and anger over issues with my mom eat away at him...this is a reason for his ulcers.

Thanks Happy - I know I just need to keep talking and eventually he will open up. But right now he doesn't see the need if he is "over it the next day" I have waited for a good opportunity just recently to say "I know you may be over it, but I'm not. Can we talk?" And that seemed to help some. It's just frustrating because I don't feel like I know WHO he is if I don't know what makes him tick. Time and support will help I am sure. I hope so anyway.

Maybe you could find NEW ways of interacting with each other, if the old ways don't work. Shake up your life, so that you get the old two of you back, when you weren't in your routine, comfortable, and taking things for granted. It might open up more of him.

Presumably, he was this way when you married him. And, you went years without telling
him of your dissatisfaction.
It seems like either it was a bad match from the start, or your preferences changed and then you expected him to change and become more demonstrative. Is that fair. I mean, did he misrepresent who he was during courtship? Or,is it more accurate to say that you misrepresented your need for someone that was more affectionate.
It seems that the latr may be true in light of your hiding your dissatisfaction in the early years.
See, I am not saying you are not entitled to affection. But, when you revealed this to him, you should have been the one to really do a lot of work to attempt to make it happen. After all, assuming he was honest going in, you were the one requiring a change and revealing something about yourself you hid.
Just saying you want such and such is not enough.After all, for years you misrepresented your need for this. Was he simply to discount all that? You should have arranged cousneling and retreats and such.
I mean, if you were willing to go to the lengths of having an affair to get your needs met, one has to wonder why all avenues were not explored in this area.

Cat- I love your idea. Shake things up a bit. My H loves routine - I fall into habits but love when things get mixed up a bit - so I will take your advice and see if I can't stir things up for us!
Zelmo - you nailed it pretty well. I can't say he was never affectionate - I know when we were dating we spent a lot of time cuddling, we went to lots of weddings and parties where he would ask me to dance and we'd smooch a little on the dance floor. He was never "romantic" per se - but I'm okay with that. I never got little trinkets, never got flowers. In fact when we were dating I told him that I don't do Hallmark holidays because there are 364 other days of the year that he can show me he loves me. When that bit me in the butt (he didn't do Hallmark holidays and did not do other days) I knew that the romantic just wasn't in him. I started doing the hallmark holidays for him anyways. He readily admits that all the affection stopped when we got married. "once I had you I didn't think I had to work so hard to keep you." Is a direct quote from my H. He no longer sat with me on the couch or floor - he had his own easy chair. When we went to weddings, he'd hang out with his buddies and only dance if I pulled him out or if someone else coerced him to ask me. But I take full responsibility that I did not speak up and tell him early on that I needed his affection. To some extent he had filled my LB up enough that I didn't realize it was missing at first. Once I did realize it, I tried talking about it, but did not push the issue. As far as retreats and counseling - I asked him several times to attend a church retreat for happily married couples, that just helps bring you closer. His sister and brother-in-law had attended and told us what a great experience it was. He always said he was not interested. I am the kind of person that once he says "no thanks" I don't push the issue - I figure no means no. I guess I should have taken the bull by the horns and forced him to go but that's not me.
Now, today I really blew it! We were decorating for Christmas with our boys. I have always wanted Christmas to be a magical time - he sees it as a chore, almost like he doesn't remember his childhood. But he did go so far as to make a "make shift" mistletoe a few years ago. He hung it up today and said "I wonder if this thing works" I totally LB'd him by saying "It's very creative and pretty but not really mistletoe is it?" The words came out way before I even thought and I regretted it instantly. He immediately withdrew to our bedroom, said nothing and went about doing some things in there on his own. I went in and apologized for my words. Gave him a hug and told him how sorry I was. He responded "It's okay, no big deal" And sounded as though it was really no big deal. He knew he would get "over it" I said, "It is a big deal. I am really sorry I hurt you. I wish you would talk to me when I do things that hurt you. You shouldn't have to "get over it."" I did not LB him on purpose to have this discussion, but it is not the first time I have told him I need to know how he feels. This time I just happened to know I hurt him - some times I don't know. It really bothers me that he won't open up. And please don't say that because of my A why would he want to open up to me - he has been this way for quite some time. I started to feel years ago like I didn't know who he was because he won't open up. I know my A didn't help matters...but where do I go from here?

Well I have been thinking all day about how I LB'd my H and wondering if Gack was right and that I am trying to push him away so hard that eventually he will say enough. It really bothered me today. But the conclusion I came to is that the "mistletoe" brings back bad memories of how I treated him that first year of my A. It just has bad mojo behind it. So I am going to ask him if he would like to go with me and buy a new mistletoe that will bring only good memories with it. Does that sound like a fair and good solution for all?

Sounds like you have such a boatload of resentment, Lizzy, that not even knowing how much trauma the affair inflicted is enough to deter commnets like the mistletoe deal.
I would imagine it took a lot of guts on his part to be that vulnerable so as to make that overture toward someone that betrayed him. So, he reached out(amazing to me ,as it seems you should be shouldering the bulk of the reaching at this point) and got his azz handed to him.
YOu had a ong term affair. You must really not like your H very much to have carried on that long and now rebuffed him.
Surely, you must have known , as those words entered your thoughts, that saying what you did was not nice. do you wonder why you went ahead and said it , anyway?

Thanks for the 2x4 Zelmo- I expected many more after I clicked the submit button - What I have come to realize after re-reading my posts (and listening to all of you) is how resentful I still am. I really do need help don't I? So tomorrow I will be on the phone setting up counseling - will ask my H today if he is interested in going too. Will let you know how it goes. If I want to make my M work I need to fix myself. Wow! Who would have thought it wasn't all his fault (I'm kidding - please don't punish me for that) But I see now how I blamed him and still do for a lot of what has happened. That is my problem (not his). Thanks.

How about you make today all about him?

Thanks Cat - I am working it! I have been really depressed these last few days. Needed some shoulders I guess. But realizing that MB is not about feeling sorry for myself now is it! Thanks Zelmo for smacking me in the face when I needed it most. We had a great chat just a while ago. We decided we both have a lot of work to do, a lot of expectations, just taking it day by day.

Ding, Ding, Ding!!
We have a winner!!!!

Admiting YOU have a problem, is half of the cure!!

I know you all probably think I have disappeared- but I am still around. I called to set up counseling with one of the very best in our area. Unffortunately, she is off this week but has a message to call me Monday a.m. to set it up. Trying to stay on track.
Thanks for the support Gack1 - Your ding ding ding comment made me laugh!

I know you all probably think I have disappeared- but I am still around. I called to set up counseling with one of the very best in our area. Unffortunately, she is off this week but has a message to call me Monday a.m. to set it up. Trying to stay on track.
Thanks for the support Gack1 - Your ding ding ding comment made me laugh!

The appointment is set - January 7, 2010 for IC. So for now, I am taking day by day. I must say since having Zelmo point out how resentful I am, I have been extremely miserable. Depressed and sad - in a real funk. I guess having it brought to my attention, knowing that I am the one who needs help, has really slapped me across the face. So for now I am just taking things day by day - not letting my funk get in the way of my H or my kids - still taking care of them and their needs. I know I will get this worked out - just need some help. Anything else?

Make some concrete plans to accomplish something.

Make good memories for the family.

Maybe you could all volunteer at a soup kitchen for Christmas? Or at Salvation Army to help hand out presents?

Thanks Cat - we already do similar things. I love Christmas, it is very magical to me! I try to bring that magic to my children every year too. Both my boys are Cub scouts and we do a lot of volunteer work through our pack - I am a den leader. In fact we are going to sing Christmas Carols and spend time with elderly people at our local retirement home tonight. As far as family memories - getting my H on the same page is a tough one. He has never been one to volunteer for anything. He would rather curl up in a corner than to put himself out there. Even getting him to just going outside to play in the snow with us is like pulling teeth. (Don't blame my A because he was that way before- just that I added that horrible bonus to the equation) I encourage him to go along with us on whatever endeavors we do but he usually abstains and would rather just stay put. He just doesn't like to "join in" - Even playing board games with our kids is like a chore. But now I am sounding resentful again. I will continue to try to bring him around - and always invite him to do whatever it is the kids have going. I just have been having some moments here lately that have brought me down - but like I said I try not to let it affect everyone elses attitudes.

Lizzy2,

So what page would you find your husband? The way I read what you've written, it sounds like you want him on your page.

What's wrong with you going to his page?

So you volunteer, he doesn't. OK, that's not wrong, just different. What does he like to do? Why not join him in that if you are looking for more time together?

He would like to curl up in a corner. Again, nothing wrong with that. How can you support, embrace and be enthusiastic about him just being himself?

Instead of "trying to bring him around" as you say, stop treating him as a project that needs improvement.

Treat him as a human being with immense value JUST THE WAY HE IS.

The problem is not bringing him around. The problem is you don't see the value in how he is and want to change him.

If you do that, I suspect things will get a whole lot better for you and your family.

You know if someone kept telling and talking about how I was "no fun" and didn't measure up, I'd probably not want to go out and play in the snow with them, or play board games with them, or do much of anything with them because they would likely be critical of that too.

Ok Ok, I guess I'm just bitter - but you are presumputious. I have never told my husband he was "No fun" or didn't measure up. I have always done the things he wanted to do - NASCAR races, sprint car races - even volunteered on a race team because that is what he likes. When he does do things with us I tell him how much we appreciate him doing it. My kids are to the point they don't even ask him to do things because they no the answer is no. Sorry but I find that sad. So I am done talking for now as I know I need help with my resentment issues and only counseling can do that for me.

Why not just stop after "just bitter." The phrase after but indicates you don't really own it, you want to shift blame/focus on to whatever fault you perceive in me.

If you are doing this to your husband, I understand why he may prefer doing nothing to engaging.

Really, then what message does your affair send? Did it send the message that your find your H the most attractive, most enjoyable person to be around to the exclusion of all others.

Probably not. So by your actions, and I can see it in the words you use here, you have a view of your husband that is similar if not exactly how I just described it above.

So what's the problem with SF then? On one hand you tell me you ALWAYS do what your husband wants to do, yet in this thread you are asking us about not wanting SF.

Which is it?

I think you are fooling yourself if you think you ALWAYS do what your husband wants to do.

Besides, it's not enough just to do it, you have to do it with enthusiasm.

You want your husband to be enthusiastic about playing with the kids, or showing affection, non-sexually, and probably a host of other things, right?

So you want to complain about him here, and if we "fix" him, then you'll be more enthusiastic?

It comes across that way to me. I could be totally wrong, but that's the message I'm hearing.

Is that what he wants, or is that what you want? Nothing wrong with you wanting it. But if you are doing it for him because you want appreciation, that may not be a winning strategy.

So why is it that he doesn't want to do things with the kids? Instead of judging him, as it appears you are here, why not dig deeper. Find out what it is that makes it so unappealing. Better yet, find out what would make it more appealing to spend more time with the kids.

But don't just judge him negatively for it. Frankly, he's an adult and if he wants a close relationship with his kids, he's responsible for creating that relationship.

It's not your job to judge him because he doesn't run that relationship the way you would run it.

It's your job to be his partner is creating whatever kind of relationship with his children that he wants.

He may regret it later if he doesn't get close to them. Or he may not. He may not have been close to his parents, so doesn't see that as a critical need.

But you come across here very judgmental. It sounds as if he would be closer to his kids like you would like him to be, that his life would be better.

You may be right.
He may be right.

Your job is not to change him, but to be his partner. He's not clay, he's not a project, he's the man you married. If he wants to make changes, then you can be supportive. If he wants to be the same he was when you married, can you be equally supportive?

Lizzy, did you ever stop to think that, from his perspective, maybe your desires for a certin type of Christmas or family activities are equally annoying? I mean, it's not like you have a monopoly on the "right" way for a parent to act or how a person feels about Christmas and volunteering.
I get the feeling that you think everyone will agree that your way is the best. Maybe the way your h chooses to live his life is every bit as valid as your own. And, maybe, just maybe, he does some things in his life that he and others may consider to be a better way of living than the one you advocate. I think you would have to concede that at least as far as demonstrating a committment to his vow of fidelity, he has done a better job than you. Maybe there are other areas , as well, where he performs better or where his choices are superior.

No doubt Zelmo - I changed alot of things about myself early in our M to go along with his ideas and values - I guess my giver is just gave out and my taker is in overdrive.

Yeah, that over-giving deal is about the worst thing for a marriage. I did it , too,and it really breeds resentment. It's unhealthy and breeds passive aggression.

Once again, Zelmo, you have hit the proverbial nail on the head. Where none other manage to go.

It also breeds contempt on the part of the taker. I think I finally figured out that you do not have to be super giving all the time to show love. And, you have to be true to yourself, first, and be willing to lose your partner if it comes to a choice between your values/ideals and keeping that person happy. Because, in reality, the other person is not happy, just contemptuous.
I play golf like this. I just commit to what I think is right and do it. I let the chips fall where they may. It realy works.
So much of our lives seem restricted by fear.