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Originally Posted by B_S2008
As one who did the betraying, let me say: THIS is how you need to be thinking. For the duration of the affair, and for the first few days after D-day, I was convinced I "didn't know" why I did it, why it happened, there must be these bigger issues... WRONG.

As SMB posted earlier, it is simple, and you DO know why it happened. What finally made me get it was my husband insisting (with such hurt and frustration) that I stop lying to myself. So now I'm telling you to do the same thing. Sit down and really think about it - don't spare yourself, don't delude yourself so you don't have to admit how bad it was/is, and start thinking insightfully.

Most importantly: SPEAK WITH YOUR BH ABOUT IT!! Even if it's an insight or thought that's not fully developed or understood yet, discuss it with him.

Exactly ! How is i wish my wife read this and followed it to the tee. OP, please read the above post again. As a BH, that is what i am looking for. Dont just blame the OM and what a loser he was. Get the facts out. Look at everything objectively and in slow motion - then share that with your husband. Let your BH decide what he wants to hear.

You already know you have hurt your husband beyond recognition. You know it and he knows it. Time to take the next steps. If you really think you have learnt a lot from the A (and from your posts it looks like you did and you will NEVER ever have an affair again) then let your husband know that. And let him know why you think that way.

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Originally Posted by optin1
Originally Posted by Mike_C2
My WW really laid that on thick last night...NEVER,NEVER,NEVER, etc. Said it caused HER too much pain, not her usual "I hurt other people"....which was more comforting to me, I think.
nice to know that Mike. You know how much i am dying to hear that from my wife ? She is doing the usual "I know i have hurt you". And that is pretty much it.

Well....I sort of pulled it out of her by bringing up something that was discussed here "Once a cheater, always a cheater." I weasn't owning that sentiment, I was just discussing the concept.

I said that the thesis is that once someone shows they will cross that line, their regrets are the ramifications from getting caught, not personal moral or ethical pain. And maybe next time they will just be more clever to avoid what got them caught.

So I was sort of instigating :-)

Then she went on at length expressing her personal pain.

It was a good discussion....maybe just for me, obviously this stuff is shameful and embarrassing for her, but she knows we have to talk it out.

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Originally Posted by Mike_C2
Well, good point, but I was thinking the analogy given above about a beautiful woman naked in a room for a one time riskless sex act.

I think a man is more likely to jump that. I think most women look outside for something other than a one time sex act.

I actually think my husband has more self restraint than I have.
When we met I was head over heels for him and engineered all sorts of situations to try to get him to have sex with me. We spent all night in the same bed and he wouldn't touch me. He said I was the sexiest woman I'd ever met, he was falling in love with me and he wanted it to be right the first time we made love so he refused until I got him drunk and took advantage of him. Then we spent the next 2 months in bed so I know it wasn't that he didn't find me attractive or anything.

I am still the one with the higher sex drive though and had more partners before we met than he did because I tended to fall into bed a bit too easily without thinking it through unlike him.

I have no willpower or self control and I know I could still easily lose my head if given enough time and flattery from a man, even though I never find anyone as attractive as my husband. I won't put myself in a position where that could happen for just that reason.



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Originally Posted by Rosycheeks
I have no willpower or self control and I know I could still easily lose my head if given enough time and flattery from a man,

Really?

I was going out later....you like chinese food?

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Originally Posted by Mike_C2
Originally Posted by Rosycheeks
I have no willpower or self control and I know I could still easily lose my head if given enough time and flattery from a man,

Really?

I was going out later....you like chinese food?

Although it is funny, this is not the best place to be making those kind of jokes. The MB police will come get you.


Jim

BS - 32 (me)
FWW - 33
Married 8/31/03
No kids (but 3 cats)
D-Days - 8/25/06 (EA), 11/3/06 (PA)
NC agreed to - 11/8/06
NC broken - 11/28/06, 12/16/06, 1/18/07, 1/26/07, 1/27/07
Status - In Recovery
Jim's Story
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(sigh)

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I forgot to add I'd have to not be having enough time with my husband too.. :p

He's on his way home right now from Paris. I can't wait.


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Originally Posted by Frank57
Since you already have fallen once, you have proven that your defenses were not up to the task. That means that you must from now on and through out the rest of your M (perseverance!!) take extraordinary precautions to protect your M. In addition to learning from your proven weakness, this is also necessary to give your H a sense of safety.

You are not flawed! But people may feel that you underestimate what it takes to protect your M and your H.

God bless your recovery!

parkjee1, Frank57 summed it up very well.

Do you know what EP's (Extra-Ordinary Precautions)need to look like?
When I first came to MB'ers I had NO idea what EP's were, nor did I know how to create a list.

So I'm hoping that my list might help you as an example.......



Originally Posted by tst
Extraordinary Precautions:

a) I am responsible to protect my wife at all times.
b) I will give full access of all my business records to my wife.
c) I will agree to give all passwords, account codes business and personal to my wife.
d) I will not put myself in an advice giver role with another woman, unless my wife is present and has given her prior approval.
e) I will defer to my wife as the advice giver when it involves another woman, unless she specifically calls on me.
f) I will not spend any time with another woman that my wife is not present.
g) I will allow only my wife to hear my problems or concerns.
h) I will not share my infirmities with another woman.
i) I will allow my wife to be my exclusive care giver, unless she specifically calls on someone else to help her.
j) I will defer to my wife in all matters of charity and outreach, with her being the sole point of contact when caring for women.
k) I will not teach martial arts to another woman without my wife being present and having enthusiastic agreement about such training in advance.
l) I will openly share my daily business schedule with my wife.
m) At any time she requests, I will trade cell phones with my wife for the time she deems necessary.
n) I will allow only men to provide essential care, such as Doctors appointments, hair cuts, massages, individual counseling, etc.
o) I will always defer to my wife regarding any outside activity and will agree to eliminate any activity she feels is interfering in our relationship or the relationships of our children.
p) I will not travel out of town for business or personal reasons without the company of my wife.



I do these things on a daily basis today.
If I had been considerate of my wife to begin with, I would have ALWAYS been doing these things and there would have been no chance of having an A. Make sense?

When we counseled with Dr. Harley Chalmers, she helped me understand how important this step in recovery was. It is MY responsibility to protect my wife at all times.

Protecting one another from our own inconsiderate actions and behaviors is the beginning formula for a successful recovery. Hence, EP's!





Recovery began 10/07;

Meeting my wife's EN's is my "thank you" that refuses to be silenced.
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Originally Posted by tst
Originally Posted by Frank57
Since you already have fallen once, you have proven that your defenses were not up to the task. That means that you must from now on and through out the rest of your M (perseverance!!) take extraordinary precautions to protect your M. In addition to learning from your proven weakness, this is also necessary to give your H a sense of safety.

You are not flawed! But people may feel that you underestimate what it takes to protect your M and your H.

God bless your recovery!

parkjee1, Frank57 summed it up very well.

Do you know what EP's (Extra-Ordinary Precautions)need to look like?
When I first came to MB'ers I had NO idea what EP's were, nor did I know how to create a list.

So I'm hoping that my list might help you as an example.......



Originally Posted by tst
Extraordinary Precautions:

a) I am responsible to protect my wife at all times.
b) I will give full access of all my business records to my wife.
c) I will agree to give all passwords, account codes business and personal to my wife.
d) I will not put myself in an advice giver role with another woman, unless my wife is present and has given her prior approval.
e) I will defer to my wife as the advice giver when it involves another woman, unless she specifically calls on me.
f) I will not spend any time with another woman that my wife is not present.
g) I will allow only my wife to hear my problems or concerns.
h) I will not share my infirmities with another woman.
i) I will allow my wife to be my exclusive care giver, unless she specifically calls on someone else to help her.
j) I will defer to my wife in all matters of charity and outreach, with her being the sole point of contact when caring for women.
k) I will not teach martial arts to another woman without my wife being present and having enthusiastic agreement about such training in advance.
l) I will openly share my daily business schedule with my wife.
m) At any time she requests, I will trade cell phones with my wife for the time she deems necessary.
n) I will allow only men to provide essential care, such as Doctors appointments, hair cuts, massages, individual counseling, etc.
o) I will always defer to my wife regarding any outside activity and will agree to eliminate any activity she feels is interfering in our relationship or the relationships of our children.
p) I will not travel out of town for business or personal reasons without the company of my wife.



I do these things on a daily basis today.
If I had been considerate of my wife to begin with, I would have ALWAYS been doing these things and there would have been no chance of having an A. Make sense?

When we counseled with Dr. Harley Chalmers, she helped me understand how important this step in recovery was. It is MY responsibility to protect my wife at all times.

Protecting one another from our own inconsiderate actions and behaviors is the beginning formula for a successful recovery. Hence, EP's!


TST, I must say this is still the best list of EPs I've ever read.
I'm going to ask a rather personal question. Does it ALWAYS come natural for you to follow these, now that you are in a good healthy marriage, or are you ever tempted to feel restricted?

I know that even the best of people are less than perfect, so I am just wondering if the devil ever tries to make you feel resentment. I've encountered a situation with someone who is outwardly very remorseful most of the time, but as time wears on, is feeling the EPs could be relaxed just a teensy bit.

Not to completely TJ, but I would like to hear your thoughts.

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And just to add, I don't think the EPs should EVER be relaxed. I just wondered if it is normal for a former wayward, who is still repentant, to start balking at one or two boundaries. For instance, for him to say "Well surely I can get a haircut or a doctor's exam from a female." Would there ever be an exception?

I guess what I really want to know, is this a red flag that he is wanting to step out again, or more of a pride issue, if for instance he takes ragging from his buddies for not being "allowed" to do the "normal, innocent" things most people do.

I actually have a couple of other questions, so if you would prefer, I could start another thread.

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Tst, thankyou for sharing that list.

I have always felt abnormal that I didn't want my husband to have a haircut or a doctors exam from a female. I have allowed it because its just normal (and in the NHS in England you really don't get to choose your doctors anyway most of the time) but reading your list has made me feel that maybe I wasn't so crazy to feel these things.



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I'm back.....it's been a while since i posted.....well, it seems like nothing has changed...we still have our good days and bad days.....just had a bad day, yesterday.....my h says that nothing has changed, and that we still go on with daily life just the same as before and during the a.....i tell him that it has changed, because....i want to be there

he says that he still feels the same, that it's not getting any better......and, i tell him, like i have from the beginning, that it's going to take time.....i don't know how much....but, i'm willing to do whatever it takes to make things right....when he has a meltdown, he says some really hurtful things to me...i know, i deserve it.....but, in my heart, i don't think that he really means it, i think he's trying to hurt me as much as i have hurt him...tells me things like.....you're going to die a lonely person, and that i'm going to hell.....your parents must be proud....the list goes on and on....

guess i'm just looking for re-assurance, once again, that this is normal....i just can't stand the pain inside, though.....i've been crying all morning.....i just want to take his pain away....

i know my h, we've been with each other for 20 years....deep down i know that he wants to work things out, but i think he's afraid.....afraid that it's going to happen again, that i'm going to leave....i don't know....and, he's put up a wall and i feel that he's not allowing himself to love me again (he hasn't told me that he loves me since d day)...we'll go out with friends, laugh and have a good time, and then the very next day, he'll tell me that he was just pretending

i'm assuming this is normal, from reading other posts.....but this just gives me a way to vent....i don't have anyone to talk to....i do have 2 good friends that know, but, they have never been in a situation like mine, at least not that i know of....and, it's just hard.....takes me right to the edge sometimes......

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Originally Posted by parkjee1
I'm back.....it's been a while since i posted.....well, it seems like nothing has changed...we still have our good days and bad days.....just had a bad day, yesterday.....my h says that nothing has changed, and that we still go on with daily life just the same as before and during the a.....i tell him that it has changed, because....i want to be there

he says that he still feels the same, that it's not getting any better......and, i tell him, like i have from the beginning, that it's going to take time.....i don't know how much....but, i'm willing to do whatever it takes to make things right....when he has a meltdown, he says some really hurtful things to me...i know, i deserve it.....but, in my heart, i don't think that he really means it, i think he's trying to hurt me as much as i have hurt him...tells me things like.....you're going to die a lonely person, and that i'm going to hell.....your parents must be proud....the list goes on and on....

guess i'm just looking for re-assurance, once again, that this is normal....i just can't stand the pain inside, though.....i've been crying all morning.....i just want to take his pain away....

i know my h, we've been with each other for 20 years....deep down i know that he wants to work things out, but i think he's afraid.....afraid that it's going to happen again, that i'm going to leave....i don't know....and, he's put up a wall and i feel that he's not allowing himself to love me again (he hasn't told me that he loves me since d day)...we'll go out with friends, laugh and have a good time, and then the very next day, he'll tell me that he was just pretending

i'm assuming this is normal, from reading other posts.....but this just gives me a way to vent....i don't have anyone to talk to....i do have 2 good friends that know, but, they have never been in a situation like mine, at least not that i know of....and, it's just hard.....takes me right to the edge sometimes......

I'm a BH and your situation almost describes mine exactly. Good days and bad days. I would say you are probably right - your BH is afraid you are going to leave. After all you left him (either physically and/or mentally - doesn't really matter) once before. Why not again? I think if you want to help your H you need to show him and prove to him why you love him so much. Why he is a better choice then the OM? Its not enough to just say I love you. Write it down for him. Surprise him with a long email or letter describing good qualities about him. I wish my own WW would do this for me but won't. It would help me out tremendously. Even if your H believes you when you say you love him he is probably thinking in the back of his mind well she loves me bc she has to or loves me but probably loves/loved the OM more. Prove to him that this is not true. Unless it is - then you have more issues to deal with then I can help out with.





BH - me. 35
WW - 31
DD - 3
DD - 4
DS - 7
Married 9 years
D-date - 9/12/2008
EA - ~9/06-9/08
PA - 9/07-9/08
NC #1 - 9/15/2008
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I have done this.....several times....I'll find a card that says the right thing, and, I fill all of the empty space in with my thoghts and apologies......his big thing is saying it's been __ months (we're almost at 8 months) and I don't feel any better....
i hate seeing him hurt like this...

he'll say the same thing, about me leaving for those 10 months, and i know that.....i think maybe he feels he's getting back at me for what i did....when he puts me down and says the hurtful things.....and i do think that's a big part of it, he said he gets upset when he talks to the guys he works with, and they all say, your wife is so nice....and in his mind, he's thinking, huh-if you only knew.....he'd like to tell them that, but yet he doesn't want to....if that makes any sense.....like i said before, i feel that he wants to hurt me because of what i did and how i turned our family upside down

i tell him that i'm willing to do anything to make this up to him and the girls, and make this marriage work, no matter how long it takes.....if i were to leave, like he asks me to all the time.....i'd be taking the easy way out......what we're going thru is hell...and, i wouldn't wish this on anyone.....

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Parkjee,

Is OM out of the picture, that is moved away and is OMW helping to maintain separation and is she aware of what happened? His proximity might be a factor for your H.

NJ

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Originally Posted by parkjee1
I have done this.....several times....I'll find a card that says the right thing, and, I fill all of the empty space in with my thoghts and apologies......his big thing is saying it's been __ months (we're almost at 8 months) and I don't feel any better....
i hate seeing him hurt like this...

he'll say the same thing, about me leaving for those 10 months, and i know that.....i think maybe he feels he's getting back at me for what i did....when he puts me down and says the hurtful things.....and i do think that's a big part of it, he said he gets upset when he talks to the guys he works with, and they all say, your wife is so nice....and in his mind, he's thinking, huh-if you only knew.....he'd like to tell them that, but yet he doesn't want to....if that makes any sense.....like i said before, i feel that he wants to hurt me because of what i did and how i turned our family upside down

i tell him that i'm willing to do anything to make this up to him and the girls, and make this marriage work, no matter how long it takes.....if i were to leave, like he asks me to all the time.....i'd be taking the easy way out......what we're going thru is hell...and, i wouldn't wish this on anyone.....

I have to say your H sounds a lot like me. Especially with all those nasty comments. Guilty here. Trying to stop but very hard. At the same time, you can't be a doormat. You are allowed to standup for yourself. My WW will not let me get away with too much - off to the couch for her. And I respect her for that - I think I should be allowed to express how hurt I feel and stuff like that - but not be nasty about it. Bc ultimately that turns her away from me. My WW responds best when I talk about the A calmly and matter of factly. Have you suggested this to your H? That if he talks calmly with out nasty comments that you will talk and answer questions without hesitation. And have you been completely open and honest with him? About everything? No 'protecting' his feelings. That's one thing in our R that has hindering it - my WW not being truthful about her feelings about the A and the OM. She doesn't want to hurt me but in reality lying hurts much more.

The work thing makes sense - I find myself not really talking about my WW as much. This way I don't have to deal with thinking bad about her. Same here - I would like to tell more people but in a sense I don't want other people to look down upon my W. Strange huh? She has an A but I don't want others to think bad of her. That's reserved for me.

Whatever you do don't leave or even agree with him. He is I think testing you - he wants to really know that you want to be here. Just keep telling him I'm not even considering it. Tell him you will stay here as long as it takes. Tell him you are in it for the long haul. However that doesn't mean he gets to treat you badly for 20 years. But 8 months is too short to expect him to be completely over it. And whatever you do - don't say things like 'just get over it', or it is in the past. That kind of thing. Bc your H is living it every day. Tell him you want to move forward but you understand why he is having a touch time dealing with it.




BH - me. 35
WW - 31
DD - 3
DD - 4
DS - 7
Married 9 years
D-date - 9/12/2008
EA - ~9/06-9/08
PA - 9/07-9/08
NC #1 - 9/15/2008
Broken a couple of times
NC #2 - 11/8/2008 - Hopefully the last time
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I agree, he does need to express the anger and hurt....even though he tells me that he's become callous to all of the hurt, i know better....if that was the case, he wouldn't be having the outbursts....and, most of the time, we do end up talking calmly about things.....i just hate that all of the anger comes out first....

that's his big thing....telling me to just pack up some things and go to my parents' house....he'll say just for a week or so....i don't know why he thinks that will make things better...and when he says that, i know he's thinking, maybe she'll change her mind, and that's really what she wants......no, it's not....i want to stay and make it work

trust me, i know he's nowhere near coming to peace with it, that's going to take a really long time.....and truthfully, i know that it will always be there....but, hopefully in time, i'm hoping for it to be way in the back of his mind......i've never told him to forget about it, or to get over it.....i tell him that we need to work on getting back on track and our future together.....

i've told him about MB, and that we are not the only ones who are in this type of situation.....but, he's reluctant to check it out......i tell him that i know not every person's story is the same, but it is somewhat comforting to know that you're not the only person experiencing certain thoughts snd feelings....and that, evidently, the way he feels is normal.....
and that if other couples can get thru it, with a good turnout, than, so can we....we just need to try...

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Originally Posted by parkjee1
I agree, he does need to express the anger and hurt....even though he tells me that he's become callous to all of the hurt, i know better....if that was the case, he wouldn't be having the outbursts....and, most of the time, we do end up talking calmly about things.....i just hate that all of the anger comes out first....

that's his big thing....telling me to just pack up some things and go to my parents' house....he'll say just for a week or so....i don't know why he thinks that will make things better...and when he says that, i know he's thinking, maybe she'll change her mind, and that's really what she wants......no, it's not....i want to stay and make it work

trust me, i know he's nowhere near coming to peace with it, that's going to take a really long time.....and truthfully, i know that it will always be there....but, hopefully in time, i'm hoping for it to be way in the back of his mind......i've never told him to forget about it, or to get over it.....i tell him that we need to work on getting back on track and our future together.....

i've told him about MB, and that we are not the only ones who are in this type of situation.....but, he's reluctant to check it out......i tell him that i know not every person's story is the same, but it is somewhat comforting to know that you're not the only person experiencing certain thoughts snd feelings....and that, evidently, the way he feels is normal.....
and that if other couples can get thru it, with a good turnout, than, so can we....we just need to try...

I think for a lot of people anger is just another way of expressing pain. But being angry is sometimes easier bc is makes you less vulnerable or weak. I'm guessing this is probably true with a lot of BH more then BW. Society thing that guys are supposed to be tough. Your true enemy is apathy - that's when you know your really in trouble.

I think you are right about the going to your parent's house comment. He is testing you. You need to show now more then ever that you are 100% committed. Don't get discouraged and agree with him - even if he asks you 50 times. The one time you say ok I'm going will justify his thoughts about you not really wanting to be there.

A lot of people to get through it - but a lot of people don't. That's just the reality. I think the people who get through it are the ones who really become open and honest with each other. And not just telling their S what they think they need/want to hear. You can have a new M based on honesty.

I was reading through your thread and you really didn't say much about the A. Because in a sense your actions almost seem to good to be true from a BH point of view (talking about after the A of course). Seems like you have done a lot of things right. I wish my WW would come on here or read more stuff. She is pretty resistant. Just wants to move ahead and stay focused on the present. But that's pretty common for WS. What kind of A did you have? You wrote is was 10 months but was it a romantic A where you totally fell for the OM? Were you 'in love' with the OM? Or was it kind of friends with benefits situation? The reason I ask is it might make a difference with how your H is getting over it. I think most guys can understand (although not condone) the whole friends with benefits scenario (heck most single guys dream of finding a few of these before they are M) but the romantic A is a little harder to get over if your H is questioning weather you loved the OM or him more. Have you talked about this with your H?




BH - me. 35
WW - 31
DD - 3
DD - 4
DS - 7
Married 9 years
D-date - 9/12/2008
EA - ~9/06-9/08
PA - 9/07-9/08
NC #1 - 9/15/2008
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NC #2 - 11/8/2008 - Hopefully the last time
In recovery....but not easy
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I think that's exactly what my A was, you hit the nail on the head...I really don't have any girlfriends to call my own...all of my girlfriends are spouses of my H's friends....and, I'm not saying that that justify's my A, I'm just stating the facts. The OM was someone to "complain to"...and, I did tell my H that's what our conversations were about....he'd [censored] about his W, and I'd [censored] about you....and, we had sex....i didn't love him, i never pictured us being together, or anything along those lines.....and, I definitely never stopped loving my H.....and I've told him this....but, who's going to believe anything I say, after what I've done!






Joined: Oct 2008
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Originally Posted by parkjee1
I think that's exactly what my A was, you hit the nail on the head...I really don't have any girlfriends to call my own...all of my girlfriends are spouses of my H's friends....and, I'm not saying that that justify's my A, I'm just stating the facts. The OM was someone to "complain to"...and, I did tell my H that's what our conversations were about....he'd [censored] about his W, and I'd [censored] about you....and, we had sex....i didn't love him, i never pictured us being together, or anything along those lines.....and, I definitely never stopped loving my H.....and I've told him this....but, who's going to believe anything I say, after what I've done!

I don't think you can ever justify an A but I think you should understand why and what caused you to have one so you don't repeat it. Obviously poor boundaries are an issue - although I think a lot of people aren't aware that they need boundaries until after an A. A good example would be becoming friends with the opposite sex. And I mean good friends - someone who you talk with on the phone a lot and confide in. People on these boards have differing opinions but I think its a really bad idea. I truly believe my WW didn't mean to have an A but really just wanted to have a friend to talk with who 'got' her. But she herself has admitted that's its different when you are friends with someone of the opposite sex. There is always that underlying sexual element unless you are just totally repulsed by that other person. And then if you throw in issues in a M like we had (not meeting EN), the chance of an A becomes much higher. If I had know more about boundaries (and I'm not perfect here either) then I would have stopped their 'friendship' before it went to another level. And yes - a 'better' person with higher morals would still not have the A but I think some people delude themselves when they say I could never have an A. I think a better attitude is that I am never going to put myself in position to have an A. That's what EP are all about.

As for you situation only you really know how you felt about the OM. 10 months is pretty close to a long term affair. And for most women when you start having sex with another man it definitely adds a connection to that other person. So I'm thinking it was proably more then just a friends with benefits kinds of thing. The answer would be how you and your OM talked with each other. Did you tell each you loved one other, etc. Either way its bad so in the end it doesn't matter but I think its important to be honest with yourself and with your H. If he feels you are still holding back or lying he is going to have a tougher time in recovery. He already has taken you back. He knows most of the sordid details. Don't hinder your R by trying to 'protect him'.

I do believe it is possible that you still loved your H. You obviously did not show it by your actions. I'm guessing you would have rathered been 'connected' to your H but for some reason you just couldn't and it was probably easier with this OM bc there were no other 'real' life issues to deal with. I think you should try to explain this to your H if this was the case. Make him feel that you would have always rathered to be connected to him but you just didn't know how to do it and messed up by not working harder to fix your M and taking the selfish/easy way out and having an A to make yourself happy.

You could always agree to take a polygraph to prove to your H that you are not lying. Not sure how you feel about this but you could offer it as an options to your H to prove to him that you are not lying anymore.

Also are there any kind of groups you could join to try to network a bit? Any kind of hobbies you like. Maybe make some more friends.





BH - me. 35
WW - 31
DD - 3
DD - 4
DS - 7
Married 9 years
D-date - 9/12/2008
EA - ~9/06-9/08
PA - 9/07-9/08
NC #1 - 9/15/2008
Broken a couple of times
NC #2 - 11/8/2008 - Hopefully the last time
In recovery....but not easy
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