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I know dis answer!! laugh


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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That would be when Neak made Cinnamon Toast.


Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
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You two are gonna get old someday, too, you know! crazy

tl

P.S. Did the toast have sugar on it?

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Quote:
P.S. Did the toast have sugar on it?


Yes I believe so..


Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
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NED, yes Dr Harley makes references to other complementary sources, such as Alanon and AA, but he does not endorse other marriage programs....Surely, you understand it is not the goal of Marriage Builders to have a bad marriage, right? In that newsletter, Dr Harley understands that sometimes there are no good options and that staying in a bad marriage for the children might be the best of bad options. But that doesn't mean Dr Harley is endorsing bad marriages.

My gosh, Marriage Builders saved my marriage. Is it too much to hope that others get the same thing? I passionately want others to get what I have in my marriage so I get a little frustrated when I see folks trying to stand in the way.


ML, I think you and I agree on a lot more than we disagree on. I agree, Dr. H refers to outside stuff, but not as an endorsement. Best would be getting the romantic love back. That's not going to happen for everyone, so there are other options. But you don't know until you try. You know, as long as it's safe, like The 1st Guideline for Successful Negotiation describes. This all I agree with.

Quote:
It boggles my mind that people would be so adamant about promoting anything BUT Marriage Builders on Marriage Builders.


This is the kind of quote that I am having a tough time with. We all do have a common purpose, supporting folks in their journey to restore romantic love to their marriage. For posters posting for help with this, helping them create loving marriages that last a lifetime. To me, terms like "boggles my mind" and "adamant" are divisive words. I feel like we are a community. Like others here, through my own fault or whatever, I am facing huge personal loss, more grief sometimes than I know how to make sense of. And so I reach out to this place for support, and even more, for a sense of common purpose. So to see these loaded terms, I gotta wonder, "can't we all just get along?"


Me 40, OD 18 and YD 13
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maritalbliss, I'm not saying newcomers should be bombarded with lots of programs here. I'm saying that I think of the whole lot of us as like brethren in a way, taking on a common purpose together. So I would totally love it if my fellow posters were not referred to like this: "it is disengenuous for anyone to come to this website and start slamming newly betrayeds with contradictory and/or useless info." I've never even seen such a thing like this take place, so I don't think a comment like this is accurate.


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Originally Posted By: NewEveryDay


Quote:
It boggles my mind that people would be so adamant about promoting anything BUT Marriage Builders on Marriage Builders.


[quote]To me, terms like "boggles my mind" and "adamant" are divisive words. I feel like we are a community. Like others here, through my own fault or whatever,


I am more concerned with the divisive ACTIONS I described. If my words sound "divisive" it is because they are describing divisive actions. And yes, that boggles my mind.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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I wouldn't say resent, like angry, I'm just sad. I miss all of us working side-by-side to help folks together. Just being honest. I hear you that you felt that MB wasn't discussed. I believe you, but that wasn't my experience, and I think that we could have, that we can, find some common framework to work together in.


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Okay, ML, I respect your decision.


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Originally Posted By: NewEveryDay
So I would totally love it if my fellow posters were not referred to like this: "it is disengenuous for anyone to come to this website and start slamming newly betrayeds with contradictory and/or useless info." I've never even seen such a thing like this take place, so I don't think a comment like this is accurate.


NED, I don't know where you have been, but I have been on the front lines here for almost 10 years and her comment most certainly is accurate. Why do you think a new policy has been put in place? If there was not an issue, there would be no need for such a policy.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted By: NewEveryDay
So I would totally love it if my fellow posters were not referred to like this: "it is disengenuous for anyone to come to this website and start slamming newly betrayeds with contradictory and/or useless info." I've never even seen such a thing like this take place, so I don't think a comment like this is accurate.


NED, I find it curious that you are more concerned with how destructive posters are defined than with how their destructive behavior affects newcomers. She is simply stating truth when she says it is disingenuious to mislead newcomers with contradictory info.

I really don't care at all what words we use to describe such behavior; rather I care about their negative impact on newcomers.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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You have every right to feel that way. I learned here that it's important for relationships that everyone shares their O&H. I don't view the folks you are referring to as destructive. I see them as folks who share our goal here: to help folks in their goal to restore romantic love to their marriages.


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Originally Posted By: NewEveryDay
I don't view the folks you are referring to as destructive. I see them as folks who share our goal here: to help folks in their goal to restore romantic love to their marriages.


Dr Harley's goal is for people to come here and learn about Marriage Builders and achieve a romantic marriage. So, if anyone interferes with that goal, they are destructive to that mission. And destructive to that newcomer. Substituting one's own personal philosophy for tried and true Marriage Builders concepts helps no one and makes it hard to help people.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Here's how I define destructive posters:


  • Those who gleefully post about revenge affairs, bait and mock their suffering betrayed spouses, and otherwise disrupt the flow of support to any thread.
  • Those who rob a betrayed husband/father of his access to his children
  • Those who use this board to otherwise gain further advantage over a wounded spouse in the legal system
  • Those who forget that the people going through the challenges of exposure, Plan A, Plan B, Plan D are the only ones who have to suffer the consequences of the advice they take here and the advice they ignore, and wield 2x4s with no compassion
  • Those who forget that this is a forum that advocates a process, a method by which has a higher probability of successful personal outcomes regardless of the outcome for the marriage.


However, if we sanitize the feedback here so tightly that any personalized experiences of the application or misapplication of Dr. Harley's principles don't clearly get conveyed, or get edited, Dr. Harley may as well close up a public forum, or only allow himself to post experiences and advice here.

It loses all value eventually as a public-access forum.

As it is, Dr. Harley couldn't do better than to have the success stories from the likes of you Mel, Pepperband, Mimi, Leilani, The Wonderings, Neak, Princessmeggy, MarriedForever, (since I'm coming up with these off the top of my head, forgive me if I leave someone out) and others who have passed the test of time with their marriages in tact. But then there's also the personal success stories where the marriage didn't recover - like SilentLucidity, LilSis, HappyinOkla and many others who don't come here anymore. It's too bad that some of those success stories could really help some who have been posting and enduring Plan B - Petals, Scotland, Hope, Holyheart, HopeEternal - and many many more. That would be even greater benefit to Dr. Harley and those who come here in a crisis. To know that there is a light at the end of the tunnel and value in following the system that Dr. Harley has developed.

These vets are missed. It would help if they were here. Once a week. Posting in a successblog. I hope they come back. For the good of Dr. Harley's program.


Cafe Plan B link http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2182650&page=1

The ? that made recovery possible: "Which lovebuster do I do the most that hurts the worst"?

The statement that signaled my personal recovery and the turning point in our marriage recovery: "I don't need to be married that badly!"

If you're interested in saving your relationship, you'll work on it when it's convenient. If you're committed, you'll accept no excuses.
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The most destructive thing said to me on this board was that I was responsible for my H lying. That, and that I was a controlling B for telling my H when he LBd me.

Mr Wondering told me that I shouldn't care about something that my H wanted to do that I DID care about. I don't consider him a good source of MB for that. He promoted IB, and suggested that I just get over it.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
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Originally Posted By: KaylaAndy
But then there's also the personal success stories where the marriage didn't recover - like SilentLucidity, LilSis, HappyinOkla and many others who don't come here anymore. It's too bad that some of those success stories could really help some who have been posting and enduring Plan B - Petals, Scotland, Hope, Holyheart, HopeEternal - and many many more. That would be even greater benefit to Dr. Harley and those who come here in a crisis. To know that there is a light at the end of the tunnel and value in following the system that Dr. Harley has developed.


I agree. Sometimes the definition of success is divorce. We have had many posters over the years who are divorced now and this was the best thing for their situation.

I would add this to your list of destructive posters:


  • Those who post conflicting personal opinions to newcomers who are here to learn Marriage Builders


Quote:
However, if we sanitize the feedback here so tightly that any personalized experiences of the application or misapplication of Dr. Harley's principles don't clearly get conveyed, or get edited, Dr. Harley may as well close up a public forum, or only allow himself to post experiences and advice here.



I am not sure what you mean by "sanitized," but if that is how you define recommending Marriage Builders concepts to newcomers, I will disagree that is a bad thing. Marriages don't recover by twisting the concepts or teaching people to misapply the concepts. Our best thinking screwed up our marriages so it sure isn't going to save them.


There is a very narrow path to recovery, and I am reminded of Dr Harley's words in Requirements for Recovery:

Originally Posted By: Dr Harley
The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide.


He said "even small deviations are disasterous," and this has been my observation over the years. So when some newcomer BS doesn't want to believe that her WH has to leave his job with his OW it makes it very hard to persuade her otherwise when someone posts conflicting advice. That poster is destructive to that newcomer and makes it all the harder to help her when she is already under duress.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted By: KA
But then there's also the personal success stories where the marriage didn't recover - like SilentLucidity, LilSis, HappyinOkla and many others who don't come here anymore. It's too bad that some of those success stories could really help some who have been posting and enduring Plan B - Petals, Scotland, Hope, Holyheat, HopeEternal - and many many more. That would be even greater benefit to Dr. Harley and those who come here in a crisis. To know that there is a light at the end of the tunnel and value in following the system that Dr. Harley has developed.


I do post often these days, Kayla, and mostly to those going into Plan B. I was just mentioning to Queenie that there is a lack of information for those AFTER they enter Plan B, except to stay dark. The first few weeks are sooooo very difficult for many and being here to help people remain dark is supremely helpful, in a time when you are going thru withdrawal and doubting going into Plan b in the first place. Mimi not only helped me during the false recoveries, but ushered me into Plan B and forced me to look inward. Were it not for this forum, I don't know what sort of support I would have found. So many people ACCEPT infidelity as a part of life and have no idea how to deal with the walking wounded.

This place does.


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Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
He said "even small deviations are disasterous," and this has been my observation over the years. So when some newcomer BS doesn't want to believe that her WH has to leave his job with his OW it makes it very hard to persuade her otherwise when someone posts conflicting advice. That poster is destructive to that newcomer and makes it all the harder to help her when she is already under duress.


I very much agree with this. Newbies will cling to any suggestion as a general rule which encourages them to do what they instinctively believe to be right. The whole point is that dealing with an affair is totally non-instinctive and hard decisions and choices must be made if there is to be any chance. Nice soft words offering "alternative" non MB advice are incredibly destructive in that situation.


Me: 56 (FBS) Wife: 55 (FWW)
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Quote:
"it is disengenuous for anyone to come to this website and start slamming newly betrayeds with contradictory and/or useless info." I've never even seen such a thing like this take place, so I don't think a comment like this is accurate.


You really haven't?? I've actually had to tell two posters that I know of to STOP IT! Newbies will post ONE post and they're replying "your M will never work, dump the WS." or "you have a serial cheater on your hands" or "your WS is a sex addict and needs professional help". They are coming strictly from their own context, many times without even knowing the other poster's whole story. And always without introducing any MB concepts. One poster actually told a BS that their M wasn't worth saving because they didn't have any kids! crazy


D-Day 2-10-2009
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Thank you Marriage Builders!

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My fav (not) are the newbies who go into a semi-Plan B because they believe their circumstances are "different" or "unique". sigh What I've figured out is that most of the time they eventually come around or they just leave. That's sad to me, especially when it looks like they may have a chance.

It also bugs the heck out of me when a newbie is told right off the bat to go to Plan B-- today, right now, this instant -- with no instruction on planning or preparation to protect them. I know some situations do require an immediate Plan B, but newbies need to learn what Plan B involves and be well-prepared before they jump in.

One more thing, I confess that sometimes I'm guilty of writing someone off too quick when they challenge or question the Plans or refuse to follow the advice they're given. God bless those who DO stick around and who are more patient. I need to do better. Maybe I should remind myself of the absolute agony and pain that newbies are feeling.

Great discussion BTW.


Widowed 11/10/12 after 35 years of marriage
*********************
In a sense now, I am homeless. For the home, the place of refuge, solitude, love-where my husband lived-no longer exists. Joyce Carolyn Oates, A Widow's Story
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