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HerPapaBear,

I could not agree more with that list. And yes it does reflect a willingness to change attitude from entitlement to repentance and care.

God Bless,

JL

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JL,

I'm curious, in some cases, like my own....
There is no time to wait for the gradual shift of perspective.

What do we tell the wayward that is coming out of the fog?

(my mind capture the image of Forest Gump,,, Run Forest, Run) Sorry, I digress!





Recovery began 10/07;

Meeting my wife's EN's is my "thank you" that refuses to be silenced.
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Interesting thread.

I can't think of anything more "extreme" than a spouse who has 6-8 affairs. One, ten years long? (Maybe VLTAs are a different thread.)

Lack of personal responsibility might be a life-long personality style. Ding-ding, I think we have a winner.

But I have learned on here, and through my own experiences, that things are not that simple at times. There are many things that enter the equation that cloud what needs to be done. I take that back, we have two winners.

eta: In the interests of full disclosure, I am (for a long time) in the not sure if I much care any more one way or the other BS scenario.


"Never forget that your pain means nothing to a WS." ~Mulan

"An ethical man knows it is wrong to cheat on his wife. A moral man will not actually do it." ~ Ducky

WS: They are who they are.

When an eel lunges out
And it bites off your snout
Thats a moray ~DS
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HPB,

I am not sure what you are asking
Quote:
I'm curious, in some cases, like my own....
There is no time to wait for the gradual shift of perspective.

What do we tell the wayward that is coming out of the fog?

(my mind capture the image of Forest Gump,,, Run Forest, Run) Sorry, I digress!


Why the lack of time? It sounds to me you told him exactly what he needed to hear. As for the fog, that is a problem. The fog means that "logic" "right and wrong" really have no meaning or offer guidance, hence the term the fog...they are lost.

So clarify for me and I'll do my best to offer an opinion.

God Bless,

JL

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On the road now...will respond to everyone later tonight.

But considering this thread, it was strange that this morning, this song came on the perfectly describes the BS when the WS is a repeat offender. The song is by 12 Stones...and is titled "Lie to Me." I put the words below. Very interesting!

________________

A candle burns away
The ashes full of lies
I gave my soul to you
You cut me from behind

Nowhere to run and nowhere to hide
You're scared of the truth, I'm tired of the lies
Cause who I am
Is where you want to be

Don't act like an angel
You've fallen again
You're no superhero
I've found in the end

So lie to me once again
And tell me everything will be alright
Lie to me once again
And ask yourself before we say good bye
Well good bye
Was it worth it in the end?

You said you were there for me
You wouldn't let me fall
All the times I shared with you
Were you even there at all?

Nowhere to run and nowhere to hide
You're scared of the truth, I'm tired of the lies
Cause who I am
Is where you want to be

Don't act like an angel
You've fallen again
You're no superhero
I've found in the end

So lie to me once again
And tell me everything will be alright
Lie to me once again
And ask yourself before we say good bye
Well good bye
Was it worth it in the end?

Why'd you have to up and run away
A million miles away
I want to close my eyes and make believe
That I never found you

Just when I put my gaurd away
It's the same old story
You left me broken and betrayed
It's the same old story

Don't act like an angel
You've fallen again
You're no superhero
I've found in the end

So lie to me once again
And tell me everything will be alright
Lie to me once again
And ask yourself before we say good bye
Well good bye
Was it worth it in the end?

Lie to me once again
It's the same old story
Lie to me once again
It's the same old story

Was it worth it in the end?


Standing in His Presence

FBS (me) (48)
FWW (41)
Married April 1993...
4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B))
Blessed by God more than I deserve
"If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"

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Originally Posted By: Mortarman
This is kind of the point I was trying to raise. What happens when you hit recovery, true recovery where the WS is ready to go the extra mile...and the BS is just spent?


not to sound trite, but isn't this why two are better than one? If one falls, the other is there to pick him up.

I would say if the BS is spent and *willing*, it can be done. If not... It's probably not going to be saved.

CV


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Married 22+ years
3 young adult children


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Originally Posted By: Just Learning
HPB,

I am not sure what you are asking
Quote:
I'm curious, in some cases, like my own....
There is no time to wait for the gradual shift of perspective.

What do we tell the wayward that is coming out of the fog?

(my mind capture the image of Forest Gump,,, Run Forest, Run) Sorry, I digress!


Why the lack of time? It sounds to me you told him exactly what he needed to hear. As for the fog, that is a problem. The fog means that "logic" "right and wrong" really have no meaning or offer guidance, hence the term the fog...they are lost.

So clarify for me and I'll do my best to offer an opinion.

God Bless,

JL




Sorry, I was on my way out the door as I was finishing my post, so I didn't re-read it prior to hitting submit.

I was fortunate to come out of the fog when I did. It didn't require weeks or even months to gain a perspective shift. My perspective shift happened overnight.

If my shift had not occured so suddenly, SMB would not have been interested in waiting for me to gain a gradual shift and all would have been lost. SMB had basically thrown in the towel by the time I had awoken, she was exhausted... There was no time to waste, I had to move quickly.

How do we guide the wayward that doesn't have a sudden awakening and yet is in the same boat that I found myself in, with a BS that is just done!? Do we even bother?
I think the majority of multiple affair waywards end up in this boat at some point and they just aren't seeing it....
What are some strategies you've seen work to help fast track their wake up call?





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Meeting my wife's EN's is my "thank you" that refuses to be silenced.
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Very good question!


Standing in His Presence

FBS (me) (48)
FWW (41)
Married April 1993...
4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B))
Blessed by God more than I deserve
"If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"

Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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Wow what a great thread

i can't help but add to this by saying that if a WS has a second, third or fourth A after reading the MB concepts (not necessarely implementing them but even just reading about how and why Affairs happen) then in my opinion they are a lost cause.

Before knowing and understanding the MB reasons for why A happen there is a certain level of fogginess that is takes place that can be forgiven by the efforts put in to recover a marriage but if my H had a repeat PA now he is fully aware of how they start, how they work and how to prevent them then that for me is unforgivable.

Recovery and surviving the A also becomes harder because the WS would be fully aware of the MB affair busting tactics therefore making them somewhat less effective.

And finally if my H had another PA after he has now witnessed the full devastating effect the first PA has on me the there is no amount of love and EN meeting that would make me want to be married to him for one more second.

This is a POV regarding repeat offenders but serial cheaters are a whole other species that I don't understand and hopefully will never have to.


BW 36(Me)
WS 38
Married: 2000
DD1November 22 2008 - DD2 October 2014
PA Duration September 08 - November 08
Second discovery- 6 online affairs 4 sexual one emotional. October 2014.kids: DS 17, DS 14, DS 12, DS 10 . Baby after divorce DS 18months

Divorced

Was misled into thinking we were in recovery for 6 years.

If you were shocked reading any of this, that this is the consequence of not following MB to the LETTER.

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I wish some others with this problem in their lives would jump in here. Where is 15, she is rather level headed and has a good perspective on this issue.

NB28, As I said earlier, I had that very attitude. Over time, I had myself totally convinced that 1. I would never stay if she did it again, and 2. She would never do it again because she loved me and new how much damage her As had done the first time around.

I was blindsided so badly that OM's W called me and gave me evidence of the A and I convinced her that an A would never happen between my best friend and WW. It took me nearly a month before I started to realize that it was even possible, and another month to finally press the WW to come clean.

My affair-detector worked great 15 years ago. I knew she had an A but couldn't prove it for 5 years. Five years and many fights later I finally tapped the phone and set her up to talk about it, and bingo. Post DDay #1, and sometime during our false recovery, I turned the affair-detector off and turned to the blind/ignorant trust plan. It didn't work out so great. OM's W had her detector turned on, and it worked well. She knew in her heart, told me, and I couldn't believe it.

When I came to this sight 10 years ago, I cannot remember a single member here who described a repeat other than the typical serial cheater who never stopped or the typical WS who got back with AP after false recovery. If I had seen more of this, I would like to think I would have taken heed and read up on it a bit. Perhaps I could have learned a little bit, like you are not removed from the risk of an affair just because you have experienced it once in your marriage. Or your WS may know exactly what an A did to you and your marriage BUT that doesn't mean they can't do it again, as they have already proven their ability to be cruel and selfish.

I could go on, I am tired and rambling.

I have added my sig line, to remove the confusion. I get the 7-8-9-20 Affairs and now a 10 year long A, getting tired of correcting everyone smile


Me BH previous user name SEM
WW Senninpaswife previous user name Keep Smiling
Married 16 years - HS sweethearts
2 kids, Boy 15 years, Girl 13 years

WW's Affair #1,2,3,4 @ 1 year into marriage All ONS type PAs
DDay #1 09/11/01 False recovery for 10 years

WW's Affair #5 07/11 - 10/11 with my best friend EA&PA
DDay #2 11/27/11
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I think that is the million dollar question.

We have folks who do nothing right with respect to the plans, but their spouse ends her affair and comes home.

We have others, who do as near perfect as can be implementation of the plans to include all out exposure and his wife never even waivers from her affair.

Sometimes, scratch that, it's always about the wayward spouse. It goes back to boundaries as was said before. If they don't perceive a need for boundaries, why would they suddenly adopt them because they've "Hurt" (their quotes, not mine) someone else.

Someone without boundaries many not care enough about themselves or others to really care.

MB is about fixing marriages. I believe Dr H is pretty clear it doesn't work on seriously broken people.

We are all flawed, but some are just not qualified to be in a relationship.

DJ or not, I think even Dr H would tell you that maintaining a relationship with such folks is extremely difficult.

So to me, the question is no longer how to reach those people, but rather is there any evidence that leads one to believe they are a safe spouse.

I don't think the onus is on the BS, which has also been alluded to before. I think we continue to tell the BS to believe nothing from the wayward, and simply wait to see if she demonstrates the character necessary to be a safe spouse.

If she won't, you don't want her as your spouse anyway. They stepped out, they have to demonstrate they are willing to step back in, and demonstrate credibility.
Originally Posted By: HerPapaBear
Originally Posted By: Just Learning
HPB,

I am not sure what you are asking
Quote:
I'm curious, in some cases, like my own....
There is no time to wait for the gradual shift of perspective.

What do we tell the wayward that is coming out of the fog?

(my mind capture the image of Forest Gump,,, Run Forest, Run) Sorry, I digress!


Why the lack of time? It sounds to me you told him exactly what he needed to hear. As for the fog, that is a problem. The fog means that "logic" "right and wrong" really have no meaning or offer guidance, hence the term the fog...they are lost.

So clarify for me and I'll do my best to offer an opinion.

God Bless,

JL




Sorry, I was on my way out the door as I was finishing my post, so I didn't re-read it prior to hitting submit.

I was fortunate to come out of the fog when I did. It didn't require weeks or even months to gain a perspective shift. My perspective shift happened overnight.

If my shift had not occured so suddenly, SMB would not have been interested in waiting for me to gain a gradual shift and all would have been lost. SMB had basically thrown in the towel by the time I had awoken, she was exhausted... There was no time to waste, I had to move quickly.

How do we guide the wayward that doesn't have a sudden awakening and yet is in the same boat that I found myself in, with a BS that is just done!? Do we even bother?
I think the majority of multiple affair waywards end up in this boat at some point and they just aren't seeing it....
What are some strategies you've seen work to help fast track their wake up call?




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Quote:
How do we guide the wayward that doesn't have a sudden awakening and yet is in the same boat that I found myself in, with a BS that is just done!? Do we even bother?


I would still bother. Even if the current relationship is not salvageble anymore. Personal recovery and becoming a safe spouse to someone else in the future, plus growing to be a role model to their children are all equally important.

Quote:
I think the majority of multiple affair waywards end up in this boat at some point and they just aren't seeing it....
What are some strategies you've seen work to help fast track their wake up call?


One possible wake-up call I know is nuclear exposure, of course. You are talking about WS fog, but there is also a BS fog, their inability to see and act, their cowardness way too often jeopardise the very first steps towards possible reconciliation.

Another possible wake-up call is actually BS announcing s/he is done and is filing for divorce.

Or these 2 together. This was my case. My H finally exposed my ongoing affair and said he wanted out.


Me, FWW: 43
Mr_Recon6mo, FWH: 44
DD20 and DS23
3 cats
Married 23 years, together 24
Divorcing

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Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
I wanted to point out that there is one thing in common about the repeaters on this board: they NEVER EVER did anything to recover their marriages. That is WHY they are back here.

For example, they never implemented extraordinary precautions and they never created the romantic marriage that is essential to recovery. These marriages should have never continued in the first place because the WS never implemented even basic precautionary measures.

So I want to make clear that repeats are here only because they did not use Marriage Builders the FIRST TIME.

On the other hand, we do have some recovered marriages here that contain former serial cheaters. They are only recovered becuase they did the necessary things to recover the marriage.'

Serial cheating CAN BE RESOLVED if the couple recovers the marriage. I called Dr Harley in 2007 and he told me has saved lots of these marriages.

The issue is that couples REFUSE to follow MArriage Builders. If you read the repeaters you will see they do not follow MB and are no closer to day than they were 10 years ago.


This is exactly right!

Here's what Dr. Harley says about those who say they've done Marriage Builders and it didn't work:

Originally Posted By: Dr. Harley
Now, some people have told me, "Okay, Dr. Harley, I've done everything you've said, we've done -- and I still worry about this affair; I still think about the affair."

Turns out they haven't. They haven't done that. They haven't eliminated the possibility of any contact between that person. They haven't been spending fifteen hours a week giving each other undivided attention. They have not created the romantic relationship that they are supposed to create.

The time has gone by, but they haven't done what it takes to end up having a very successful marriage. But if you do that, no pill is needed: you're gonna be able to remember what happened without it affecting you adversely.


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=313

(Discussion begins around 5:45, and he gets into this around 8:00.)

Often they say they have done it, but they have not. In addition to continued trauma for the betrayed spouse, this often results in a repeat affair, because the same conditions lead to an affair yet again!


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Marcos,

I agree with that premise. However, Who at the time is the best judge of this. We went through this and I felt we did everything right. Looking back I accept the fact that we didn't. We most certainly didn't continue to practice it for life.

My point is this, when you are the only person judging your progress, you are being judged by a fool. I thought we did great, and we didn't. A coach or counselor, I assume, would be the best person to judge your progress??

If I were to give any advice here, it would be to continue to practice the things you learn here for the rest of your life. Don't become complacent in your marriage and do the "we're doing great, we don't need to keep doing this stuff", that is what we did and it brought me back in a bad way. I don't think this is stressed enough, it sure wasn't 10 years ago.


Me BH previous user name SEM
WW Senninpaswife previous user name Keep Smiling
Married 16 years - HS sweethearts
2 kids, Boy 15 years, Girl 13 years

WW's Affair #1,2,3,4 @ 1 year into marriage All ONS type PAs
DDay #1 09/11/01 False recovery for 10 years

WW's Affair #5 07/11 - 10/11 with my best friend EA&PA
DDay #2 11/27/11
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Originally Posted By: senninpa
Marcos,

I agree with that premise. However, Who at the time is the best judge of this.


Dr. Willard Harley.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Originally Posted By: senninpa
Marcos,

I agree with that premise. However, Who at the time is the best judge of this. We went through this and I felt we did everything right. Looking back I accept the fact that we didn't. We most certainly didn't continue to practice it for life.

My point is this, when you are the only person judging your progress, you are being judged by a fool. I thought we did great, and we didn't. A coach or counselor, I assume, would be the best person to judge your progress??

If I were to give any advice here, it would be to continue to practice the things you learn here for the rest of your life. Don't become complacent in your marriage and do the "we're doing great, we don't need to keep doing this stuff", that is what we did and it brought me back in a bad way. I don't think this is stressed enough, it sure wasn't 10 years ago.


Yes, I get what you are saying. Very likely, at least for most of us, our best thinking screwed up our marriages, and we are usually the least qualified to tell if we are doing well or not!

I've learned to rely on 2x4s around here a lot, and I listen to Dr. Harley's radio show daily, and I read a lot of threads here, because all of them give me insight into how to tell how well my own marriage is doing and what to improve on.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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And, yes, these things are absolutely changes FOR LIFE!

You want a good marriage FOR LIFE. You don't want to go back to the trauma of an affair EVER.

Dr. Harley and Joyce do all of these things in their own marriage. It's not something unusual that's done only in marriages that had an affair or as punishment for the affair or whatever. It's just what you do if you want a good marriage!

It's like a diet. You can go back to eating 5000 calories a day afterward if you want, but soon you'll have the exact same problem you started with. You have to adopt the principles for life if you want to be healthy.

I wasn't hear ten years ago, but I can't believe they were telling people you could do this just for a little while. Wow. I've heard stories -- but man, that takes the cake! How irresponsible.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
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Nobody ever said "for a little while", but not a whole lot of focus on continuation of, or it wasn't stressed that this should be continued. I imagine there was some suggestion of continuation just not a lot of emphasis on it. I guess I look back and think; I wish someone would have hit me with a 2x4 repeatedly until I realized that this could happen again. Ignorance, pure ignorance!


Me BH previous user name SEM
WW Senninpaswife previous user name Keep Smiling
Married 16 years - HS sweethearts
2 kids, Boy 15 years, Girl 13 years

WW's Affair #1,2,3,4 @ 1 year into marriage All ONS type PAs
DDay #1 09/11/01 False recovery for 10 years

WW's Affair #5 07/11 - 10/11 with my best friend EA&PA
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Originally Posted By: senninpa
Marcos,

I agree with that premise. However, Who at the time is the best judge of this. We went through this and I felt we did everything right. Looking back I accept the fact that we didn't. We most certainly didn't continue to practice it for life.

My point is this, when you are the only person judging your progress, you are being judged by a fool. I thought we did great, and we didn't. A coach or counselor, I assume, would be the best person to judge your progress??

If I were to give any advice here, it would be to continue to practice the things you learn here for the rest of your life. Don't become complacent in your marriage and do the "we're doing great, we don't need to keep doing this stuff", that is what we did and it brought me back in a bad way. I don't think this is stressed enough, it sure wasn't 10 years ago.


Senn, who is to judge? The experienced posters on this forum. In your case you didn't even do step one, which was to affair proof your marriage. It is not something you do for awhile and then slack off. If you get hit by a car playing in the road, do you have to read a book or go to a "counselor" to be reminded to keep your ass out of the road? Of course not. Because you cannot unring that bell. You cannot become UNENLIGHTENED after you are enlightened.

The first step after an affair is to take basic precautions like stopping the flirting and ending opposite sex friendships, eliminating the conditions that led to the affair. You don't forget that you got hit the last time you played in the road.

And yes, i understand that marriage builders was not discussed here 10 years ago. It wasn't discussed when I got here either. So why is my marriage recovered then? Because I took it upon ,myself to learn about marriage builders.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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I have been here almost 11 years. My marriage is recovered. No one helped me when I got here. In fact I was called out and beat up by waywards when I arrived. NO ONE HELPED ME.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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