I just found out my husband has been talking with another woman. I put a VAC in his car and heard him saying he loves her. We have been together 17 years, married 15 and have 6 children. I have dealt with this behavior by him before, he always immediately stops contact with OW (never the same woman)and we deal with it. The last time was about 2 years ago. He was talking to another woman, I found out, he stopped all contact and we worked it out. My mother passed suddenly in Dec. 10 and I got pregnant with twins around the same time. The babies are 9 months old now. We were really very good for the last year and a half until now. I felt he was acting strangely, going into other room to talk and so on so I put the VAC. I found phone records of him talking to her a lot since Febuary. I confronted him. He says it's "NOTHING" and doesn't admit there is someone, then he says that he talked to her and went to a cafe a few times, then goes back and says there is nothing to talk about, he's not doing anything and that noone compares to me and that he loves me. I told him to get out. He isn't telling me anything about it, and is even bringing up things I did before we got married. He is still talking to her even after I told him I know. I don't know what to do. Should I make him move out? I told his family before when it happened and frankly, it's not much help. I don't know how to proceed. How do I make him stop all contact? Should I keep trying to get him to tell me the truth? Should I just kick him out and stop all contact with him? My kids have finals this week so i told him he has until next monday to find a place to go. Should I make him leave before that? How can I get him to be honest? Should I contact OW? All he says is "you already know everything since you're spying on me" and "I forgave you for what you did before we were married"...well I forgave him 5 times for the same thing in the last 5 years, yet he keeps doing it. I'm just so hurt, lost, confused and broken right now.

Brokenmama, I am sorry for the reasons that bring you here. It doesn't sound like your husband is in the least serious about recovery, which is why he does this over and over again.

Do you know who the OW is? Is she married?

I know who she is but I don't know if she is married or not. I only know her name and number.

Google her name. You may find more info about her that way. Try www.intelius.com as well.

Were his other affairs exposed? Who were those women? Are they people he has worked with? Were they married?

BM, I would find out if this OW is married and if so, contact her husband immediately. Even if you have to drive to her house to tell him, he needs to be told. If she is a coworker, I would notify their employer.

Expose the affair to everyone, your children, parents, close friends, everyone.

In the meantime, the only way you will be safe with your husband is if he makes a radical change in his behavior. Otherwise, you are facing a life time of hell. Your H is a serial cheater and it will require extraordinary precautions to prevent another affair.

I would go to him with a list of your conditions. If he won't agree to this, then I agree he should move out. When that happens, you will want to file for divorce or legal separation to protect yourself legally.

Set him down and explain to her that you want to have a SAFE marriage and that you won�t stay in a marriage with a serial cheater unless radical changes are made. Tell him you are willing to give him an opportunity to earn your forgiveness. In order for the marriage to recover, certain things have to happen. This is what it will take:

1. end all contact with the OW for life, sending a no contact letter that is written together and sent by you

2. no more nights apart or going out without each other - create a healthy, integrated lifestyle

3. complete transparency - cell phone passwords, exchange cell phones

4. no more opposite sex friendships

5. complete honesty about his affairs � passing a polygraph

6. commit to the Marriage Builders program for recovery as outlined in the book Surviving an Affair.

Tell him "this is what it will take to keep me in this marriage." Whether your marriage ends up with success or failure will depend almost entirely on his willingness and ability to make radical changes. His lifestyle must become absolutely transparent, holding nothing back. He is in no position to negotiate when it comes to extraordinary precautions, because those precautions are designed to prevent another affair and help you feel safe. Unless he makes a 180 degree turn in his approach to what it means to be a husband, your marriage won't recover, and you will be condemned to a life of hell.

You have nothing to lose and everything to gain by taking this approach, because if he won't do these things, you will have lost nothing except a loveless, abusive marriage.

Unless you use this program to create a much better marriage than the one you had before the affair, you are likely looking at repeat affairs. So don't even think you can get away with sweeping the affair under the rug and going back to what you had before. What you had before led to the affair!

How can I get him to write NC if he won't admit anything? All the other girls were women he met at work. I did expose him numerous times and he stops everything but then he finds some new woman and it starts again.

Does he still work with these women?

If your WH will not agree to your conditions he will need to leave. Don't make an empty threat; follow through on this.

You do not 'get him to do' anything. He has been abusing your trust for so many years. He 'gets to' choose: either he cleans up his act or he is out. You are gracefully willing to give him ANOTHER CHANCE (which he clearly does not deserve, because he has already proven he is not committed). One strike and he is out.

You have to make clear to him that you are serious this time. I can tell you exactly what he is thinking: He will try to weasle out of this, until you forget about it and everything will be smooth and he can go on doing whatever he likes while you take care of the kids. You have to do something different this time. By all means give him the list: take it or leave it.

Your marriage has only one chance and that is that he does some serious work here so that you can feel safe again. Of course you do your best to be a perfect example of a good wife the next two weeks, but he should commit to paying you back for his multiple betrayals by volunteering these extraordinary precautions.
Even with 6 children, especially with six children: you do not want them to think it is normal for a man to have girlfriends, do you???

God bless you and your family,

Happyheart

If he won't meet your conditions, then he has to move.

What does he do for a living? Does his employer know he is trolling for chicks there?

You would need to make it one of your conditions that he changes his career so he is not around women. He obviously can't even work with women.

He works at a bank. The other women do not work with him anymore as he transferred to another department. I don't know if his boss knows what he's up to. I just told him that if he doesn't want to try to fix this by becoming completely honest, he needs to be out by next Monday. He didn't say anything. I can't get him to quit his job as I'm a stay at home mom since I was 4 months pregnant with the twins but he will change jobs if he finds another one, that has been on the table without all this other crap. He will keep turning it around on me, saying I lied to him before we were married and that maybe I didn't tell him the whole truth. I did tell him everything and that I've proven myself for the past 16 years. I asked him if I've done anything since then to make him not trust me and he said no, but thinks I'm hiding something. I've decided not to initiate any contact with him while he is here and told him I will not come to him again, when he is ready to talk he can come to me. At this point I think maybe my only option to save my marriage is by kicking him out. I just don't know. I've done this so many times and it's obvious that he think he can continue doing it and I'll just be here and forgive him. I've been in Plan A my whole marriage, it is not working. This isn't a situation where he is madly in love with OW, she is just a person who boosts his ego as she is easily replaced by any other bimbo that comes along. It just kills me that he looks in my eyes and tells me he can't live without me, can't function without me and that i should stop doing this to myself, he would never leave me and blah blah blah. I just have to kick him out.

He is trying to project his behavior on to you to make himself feel better. You're not the one lying and cheating. Ignore that. Don't take it on. You've acknowledged it. When he brings it up again, I'd ignore him. Don't get into the crazy cycle of arguing/defending.

I'm not the one to advise you on Plan A or B.

Is he a sex addict? Sounds like maybe he is? If so, he needs a 12-step program or something, some commitment to action that will help him change his destructive/addictive behavior.

He will have to continue to support you and the kids. Leaving won't change that. Especially with a good separation agreement.

He's bringing this old chestnut up because he has nothing else to say to twist his bad behavior back onto you. The fact is that whatever you did when you were single was done when you were single. Sixteen years ago.Let him know that he is welcome to leave if he cannot come to terms with something that happened sixteen years ago. If this mess with his affair gets worked out and he remains with you, he needs to shut his flap about something that happened sixteen years ago. He's being a bully and it's a lovebuster.
Let him know that you are perfectly willing to take a polygraph to prove your integrity. Tell him you'll schedule it for the same time he takes his. And mean it. This should not be an empty threat, remember. Your WH needs to come clean and I suspect he'll need a poly to truly get religion. I also suspect he's been up to a lot more than he's told you. Yes, you've shown him this. That's why I told you not to make empty threats. Say what you mean, and mean what you say.

I wouldn't say he's a sex addict, he's more addicted to having other women find him attractive, say they want him and the like. He does have a very addictive personality and his alcohol abuse was way out of control but he has definitely slowed it since I got pregnant. I am the first to admit that I have not meeting his sexual needs as often as he wants, mostly because he doesn't want it until he comes home really late and he's drunk. I don't want sex that way. He says he has to beg me, I said no, you choose the time that is the most inconvenient, we have 6 kids and twins are a lot of work! I am breastfeeding and so at the beginning they nursed every 1-2 hours around the freakin clock, when I had a chance to sleep, I took it. He moved to another room in the house when I had babies so he could sleep as he works, yet he spends all his time there, he smokes and he doesn't want to smoke around them. I have told him several times that he needs to spend more time with us, but it's like he isn't here even when he is! I can see while typing this that we have many problems, maybe too many. :'(

We live in another country, there are no polygraph tests here. I don't know if he is up to more but I would think that something has to be more because why the hell would you say I love you to someone if nothing more was going on? He will continue to support us, no question about that. I know he brings up the past to shift the blame on me. Yet, we weren't married at the time, we were bf/gf and I was 20, he was 21. We didn't have children and all this. I have been proving myself for this long and it hurts me for him to bring it up everytime I bust him. I am just so afraid of how a separation will affect my children and I must say I don't want to tarnish his reputation, as stupid as that sounds, I don't want people to know my husband is like this. Everyone thinks we are the perfect couple, perfect family, they think he is such a good guy, I don't want them to change their ideas of him, does that make sense or am I an idiot?

That's why he brings it up. Take the bite out of that, BM. Take the power out of that play when he does that. Look at him calmly and say "I'm sorry that you continue to revisit something that happened when we were dating. If you truly feel you cannot come to terms with that we can't continue together. Your continued rehashing of it causes me pain and I no longer wish to live that way."

I don't want to know what you did. You were not married then. You were a single woman. BuI don't think you've been 'proving' yourself for sixteen years, sweetie. You've just been yourelf. He needs to zip his lip about whatever happened and stop using it as a Get Out of Jail Free card.

I am more concerned about his drinking. Would you say he is an alcoholic? How much does he drink? Why is he going out drinking and leaving you with the children? Why are the two of you not going out together?

It sounds like his life is all addictions - alcohol, smoking, other women, work maybe? He lies and tries to make you feel guilty for his garbage.

Kick him out. He needs help. And get a legal separation agreement from the get-go. I never in a million years believed my WH would stop supporting his children. The downward spiral doesn't stop unless they decide to get off. Protect yourself, because if he doesn't get off, one day he will quit supporting you. You have a big family, little children, protect all that - make sure he's legally bound to financially support you, and do it from the get-go when he's most willing to agree to it.

Best of luck, Mama. (I don't really want to call you "broken." I disagree with that, even though I know the feeling.)

Here's a Christian quote that may give you some peace and hope: To all who feel that someone - or something - they love is irreparably broken or irretrievably lost, (I assure you) it is not. Jeffrey R. Holland

Honestly I would say he is an alcoholic. He drink pretty much everyday now, even if it is a shot, he says he is stressed. On the weekends he goes with his friends, this country isn't one for mixed socializing, so he has the group of friends that get together and there are no women allowed, they drink. He comes home drunk every Thursday and Friday. He recently added Wednesday as another night of guys, poker night, where he drinks as well. We did go out together before I got pregnant but since then I can't go out and drink as I have 2 little girls that I cannot leave. If I tell him not to go, he says I'm controlling. When he did drink more, we fought a lot. I told him has a problem. He admitted he does and says he will handle it and if he doesn't, then he'll go to councelling. He said he will cut back but not stop. He cannot blame alcohol for his behavior though, he calls her during the day, on his way home from work and the like, not only when he's been drinking. That is just another part of this whole mess.

I know I have to do something but it seems as it's just too much to deal with. I can't go back home to the States, i won't take my kids away from their father. His mom lives with us and she will support me in my decision to kick him out, although she will not be happy about it. The laws here are in my favor as far as child support and the like. Now I just have to grow the cajones and go through with it. I'm afraid what it will do to my kids. I'm afraid he won't come clean and will try to wiggle his way back in and he is all I've known for the last 17 years, I love him. I hate him and I love him. I want to physically beat his [censored] but I love him. I'm afraid of the embarassment it will cause our family. I'm afraid, period.

Feel the fear, and do it anyway.

I would suggest you DO go home to the States! You have family here who would love and support you through this? Go!

You have not taken your children's father from them. He has. He is not fit to be a parent in his present condition. Get away from him until he turns his life around, go where you will have help, support, and love, and take care of yourself and your children in peace!

God bless.

This sounds to me like a country where drinking is frowned upon, and only allowed in special areas, perhaps for foreigners. Am I right? If so, it's sad that the strict alcohol laws haven't stopped him from becoming an alcoholic.

He is an alcoholic, though, and you will not be able to stop his destructive behaviour or work on your marriage until he is clean. You need to get him out of the house now, and get legal arrangements made for him to support you.

In your shoes, I'd be looking to go back home. I would give him a short period of time to enter a treatment programme, then a year or so to stay dry and prove that he had given up his affairs, and if those things were not happening I would go home to my mother.

You SHOULD take those kids away from their father. He is not father to them while he lives as he does. And once you are separated you will hate being alone in a foreign country, and there is no reason why you should be. Work towards taking those kids back to the USA as it is unlikely that you will see the extreme change that is needed from him.

rainy said it better.

This is an Islamic country, alcohol is illegal but readily available. I really can't go home, my dad passed 4 years ago and my mom was hit by a car in Dec. 2010 so I really only have my brothers and sisters there but they wouldn't really be in a position to help. I do have support here through my friends and his family, his mom especially. Everytime I exposed him before, she was always with me and she will support my decision to kick him out. Of course she will try to talk me out of it, scream at him and make him feel horrible (good) and try to make it better. I did get the nationality here so he cannot try to ban me from leaving and I've been here so long, 11 years, I feel like this is home. I refuse to take my kids from their home, I refuse to leave my house, I didn't make the choice to destroy our marriage, he did. He should be the one worrying about where to go and how to live.

I'm glad you feel supported, and if you feel that you can stay there and not have to deal with the logistics and legalities of taking the children out of the country, that's good.

But please don't ever say you refuse to leave the home. Who is right and wrong, and who caused the trauma is irrelevant if you are keeping yourself trapped in a terrible situation. Its fine if you feel that staying in the house can be managed to your satisfaction, but not if it is keeping you in a situation of abuse.

PS: I did say that you need to get him out of the house, and you didn't respond to that.

What actions are you prepared to take to end this situation?

If his mom supports you in kicking him out then why don't you?

Do you know what Plan B is? How To Plan B properly

Also please listen to this radio clip of what Dr. Harley says about alcoholics.
Radio clip on alcoholics

Here are some more good shows on how to deal with addictions.
Radio clip on addictions
Segment #2

Thank you for the links, I will go to them now. I am going to kick him out, actually I'm just waiting for my kids to finish their final exams so I told him he has until Monday to find a place to go. I really don't want my kids to have to worry about this during their exams, especially my OS who is 14 and my OD who is 11. They will be done with school on the 5th. I will kick him out. I've had enough.

Good job. Can you get an IM and do a proper Plan B? IM training school

You will tell the kids the truth, correct?

The alcohol and the affairs?

Please make sure your children understand that their father is an alcoholic and adulterer and that it is unsafe for all of you to be around him in that state.

Read up on Plan B. You need to go into solid lock-down mode. You don't want this to devolve into a situation where he calls, the two of you argue, he wheedles and wears you down, and then BANG! he's back home and nothing has changed.

I would immediately file for separation and make sure you and the kids are protected financially.

I would also get his mom on board with you asap. I would hope she has spine enough to refuse to allow him to live with her.

There isn't legal separation here, actually men are legally allowed to have 4 wives...so yeah, that sucks. I have to do this on my own. I will expose to his friends and family, again, but I'm very hesitant when it comes to telling my children. I think that it will damage them forever, yes, I know that what he is doing is what is damaging, but I think just kicking him out without going into detail with my kids is enough, I don't want to have them worry and be depressed more than they will be already. I know you all will disagree with me, but the dynamics here are very different than the in the States. I will tell his family and friends about the alcohol and affairs, but I really don't want to tell my kids everything. I don't see how it helps to tell them at this point. I think if I kick him out and he doesn't change then I should consider telling them everything. If someone could explain why it is needed, I will listen.

Also, are there any links to some sample plan B letters and exposure letters on this site? I can't seem to find any.

Nevermind, I found them!

Is there divorce there? Are you sure there is no way for you to get back to the States before things possibly get more ugly with him? I am worried about you.

Plan B is a good thing, but I'm wondering if you should try to find a way to get out of there first.

Four wives! Oh my . . .

Yes there is divorce here and the system is actually very much on the woman's side as far as alimony and child support. I'm better off here than in the States, because I have this nationality, I am entitled to all the benefits that come with it, including a monthly monetary stipend of around $1300 on top of my salary. I can easily go back to work and make $3000 a month, tax free with the $1300 addition income. The government pays for housing for divorced women if I needed it and so I would be better financially here than back home. As i said, both my parents have passed and my bros and sisters there wouldn't be much support as they have their own issues. I have become used to this country and I also have 1 sister who lives here, although she is leaving to go back home to finish here medical residency, then she will come back. I have every right to divorce and yes, men are allowed to have up to 4 wives but that doesn't mean the wife has to accept it. His mom would never allow me to move out with the kids, she would make him go.

Oh, good. I'm glad to hear that, BM! Sounds like you have a plan in place then, like you are getting strong. Keep posting. I'm thinking of you

Thank you! Now I just have to actually do it.

I know, and you will. And you will feel so much better after you have!

Ok so I wrote him the plan b letter and sent it:

Dear WH,
I love you. With everything I have and everything I am, I love you. I love you more and more with each passing year. I look at our pictures of us in Dubai and in America, of the years of special memories of our family and I know we really were blessed. That's why it is so hard for me to write this to you but I want to keep that love for you so I have to.

I have made mistakes in the past. I learned from them and have tried to protect our marriage and us from any pain. I am not perfect and I know that since I became pregnant with the twins, I haven't been giving you the attention you need, and I'm so sorry for that.

It really saddens my heart to tell you that I cannot stay like this. I cannot keep the love I have for you while you are still talking to OW. I cannot make you choose me and I would think I shouldn't have to, but that's what it has come to.

I asked you to move out when the kids finished exams but I cannot continue seeing you everyday while you are still with her. I'm asking you to leave the house and not have any contact with me. I will pack your stuff tomorrow and you can take it after work. This is the only way for us to save our marriage.

You can contact me only through Q as I have informed them of everything and why I'm making this decision.

After exams are finished, you can pick up our kids anytime you want, but you cannot stay here to see them and I will not be here when you pick them up. You can come on Monday nights to see your mom and I will not be here.

I know you think I am threatening you or trying to punish you but I am not. I want to save our marriage and I will fight for our family. If you want the same then you can come home only after you have proven that you choose us.

In order to come back you have to:

1. end all contact with her for life, send her letter that is written by us both and sent by you

2. no more nights apart or going out without each other

3. complete honesty- phone passwords, everything

4. no more opposite sex friendships

5. complete honesty about this affair

6. Make appointment with marriage counselor for us to start going.

7. Go to individual counseling for yourself.

I truly love you WH, more than you realize and now I just have to have faith in our love and in God.

Your wife.

I went to a meeting and when I came home we talked. He said that I tolls him to leave after exams, I said yes but I can't wait that long while you are still talking to her. He said he's not, I proved him wrong and then he tried to say that she is just a close friend, she is older than him and why do I jump to conclusions. I said I don't care how old she is and I think it's a big problem for him to be talking to her as much as they do, going out for coffee and whatever else. He said really she's just a friend. I said I don't like it and it damages our marriage. If she is just a friend why do they talk so often? Why doesn't he talk to her in front of me? Why does he call her late at night? I don't know what to think. He said that he told her they can't be friends anymore because I don't like it. I don't know how to get him to tell me if there was something more. In the end I said that he still has to move out, he needs to think about his priorities. He said ok he will. He said he'll rent a hotel, have room service, I said yeah, and you'll be free to call all of your "friends" anytime you want. He said he'll call me to come to the hotel and laughed. I told him that it's not a joke. I don't know, what if I am blowing this out of proportion?

No you are not blowing anything out of proportion!

You deserve a safe marriage where you are not abused. He has to follow all the EPs for life or this marriage will not be safe for you. He is just gaslighting you. Tell him in order to come home again you will not have a marriage with three people. Do not fall for this wayward talk!

Hugs!!
TinT

STOP THAT. You are NOT blowing this out of proportion! That's exactly what your wayward serial cheating husband wants you to think, that you are crazy and blowing things out of proportion.

What you need to convey to him, which should have been done with your list of EP's but it sounds like in your verbal conversation it was not, is that this is not about THIS OW. This is about him making consistent choices that do not protect your marriage. This is about him having VERY poor boundaries, if boundaries at all, around women of the opposite sex. This is about his multiple AFFAIRS.

Even if he says he will stop talking to her, and goes no contact like the other times, it is not enough. He needs to follow your EP's FOR LIFE. NO FRIENDS OF THE OPPOSITE SEX FOR LIFE.

Good letter, just a couple of tweaks:
He is to have NO contact with you. Your IM should give you no information about him other than the mechanics of child visitation. Other than that, she is to pass on no further information unless it is to tell you that WH is ready to accept your conditions to return home.


Are you saying you sent the letter? And then you talked to him after that?? Once you send the Plan B letter all communication is to be stopped cold.

Oh crap. I sent the letter and came home and we talked because of the letter, did I mess up? I am just so confused, have very little sleep between thi king about this and taking care of the twins that i think i misunderstood all the different letters to send I know he thinks this is about OW and it is vitally important that he realize it's about his affairs, choices and behavior, period. I don't believe him at all about OW, as he is very vague. I will just pack his things and let him go.

You send the Plan B letter when your WH is out of the house - totally gone. You don't send it while he's at work and then hash it out when he comes home from work. Do you understand how Plan B works? That's when he is out of the house and cannot return.

Well I already gave it to him so now what? Today he seems happy, he is joking with me and trying to hug me goodbye when he left to work. I know he thinks that it will just blow over, that he stopped contact with her and that is it, life will continue as before. I'm so pissed off at myself right now for letting him think this way. Yesterday I sent OW a whatsapp, this is what I said:

I am WH's wife. As you know, and obviously don't care, he IS married and has 6 children. I will do EVERYTHING in my power �to keep my husband and my family together, even if it means telling all of Kuwait what you two are doing. �I am not Kuwaiti, i have no family name or reputation to protect, I only have my children and my husband. I will not let a few months of stupidity on his part destroy almost 18 years together.

She didn't reply and she didn't try to contact him either. Here, there is no 'dating' and such, many divorced women live with their parents, very few have their own place. Just the possibility of being exposed is quite frightening to any woman, unless it is her intent to marry the man but even then it is very bad for her to behave this way. She now thinks I will contact her family and I'm sure she is deathly afraid and I will if I find out who I can contact. I'm waiting for my friend to give me more info about her. Apparently, she is divorced. My WH asked if i called her, i said no, he asked if i sent her a message, i said maybe. He said that it is aab (means something like shameful in Arabic) to call her, she is just a close friend. I said no it's not shameful, what's shameful is some woman calling married man all the time! My WH knows I know know her number but he doesn't know I know her house number. I think that this message may be enough to scare her into not calling him again, hopefully. I talked to his sister and told her everything, she supports me 100% and said I should kick him out. I will tell his oldest brother today as well as his best friend. I'm sure it nipped this "friendship" in the bud but that is just the tip of our problems, something he still doesn't understand.

Now you pack his things, set them on the front stoop and change the locks on the doors of your house. Put a note with his things: "Please understand that I mean this. I cannot be with you while your affair with that woman continues. Please let my IM know if you decided you wish to end the affair and come back to our marriage."

Sure he's happy. He's got two women fighting over him. Remove yourself from that equation.

And PLEASE read up on Plan B! You can't go into Plan B half-assed! You will lose any credibility you have and your WH won't take you seriously - and YOU won't take yourself seriously. Here.

Say what you mean. Mean what you say.

Huge developments. He called me from work and asked why I sent her the message and he was pissed. I asked how he knows and he said she sent to to him and then blocked him on her whatsapp, unfollowed him on instagram and didn't try to contact him at all. We fought on the phone, he said I went overboard, she is just a really good friend and I'm destroying his reputation and insulted her. I said too bad, she shouldn't be talking to a married man and he shouldn't be calling her. After going back and forth, he said he will move out. I said ok and we hung up.

After work he come home and told me that I should apologize to her, that when she read the message she got into an accident, that she is old and he feels about her the same way he does his aunt. I said if that's true, why didn't you tell me that from the beginning, instead of lying and going around the subject. I said I absolutely WILL NOT apologize to her. If she was a real woman and there is nothing to hide she should've replied to my message an explain herself. If there was nothing to hide then he would have told me a long time ago about her or acted the way he did the many times I confronted him. I told him that this is his mistake, not mine. He left the room only to come back a few hours later and tell me again to apologize to her. Again I said no way in hell. Even IF they are just friends, it is inappropriate to talk to each othe all the time and so on. He said she has nothing to do with this, it's not right for me to drag her into our marriage. I said you drug her in, not me. We went on like this for a few hours, basically he is pissed and wants me to apologize, I refuse. He said ok then I will leave, I said fine, if you are not willing to be honest with me about everything in your life, you need to go. He said he does a lot I things I wouldn't approve of, I said like what. He doesn't want to tell me, only wants to try to make feel guilty by saying that I want a separation and that's why I have all my spy gadgets so I can find any little thing to kick him out. I said that's not true. I don't want a separation if you are willing to do the things I ask. After a break, it was getting nasty so I left the room, when I back we went through it again. I said be honest with me and told him this is not about her it's about you not wanting to be honest. I don't care what kind of relationship you have, if you hide it, it's wrong. Then talked about separation, he said if I can't live with him, if he is so bad then it's better to leave. I said you are not bad, I can live with you and we can be fantastic together if you simply do what I ask! He tried to hug me and kiss me, told me he loves me so much and that he will miss me. I hugged him back and said I will miss you too and I'm sorry it has come to this. After more talking, we dtd and for the first time EVER afterwards he knew that I am not going to change my stance. I told him it doesn't change anything and that he still has to be willing to do all I ask in order to save our marriage. He knows that I am standing my ground because usually I would make the mistake of letting him kiss me and tell me he loves me and we make up, it didn't happen this time. I did change the move out date to Monday, as it is better for the kids to finish exams. I am having doubts about myself though, maybe there was really nothing just friendship and I look like a crazy woman messaging her, maybe he is being honest about it and there is nothing going on. He just keeps saying how he loves me and I misunderstood and how poor she is because I accused her of something and basically implied she is a ho. Too freakin bad. I am just very confused right now but I still want him to either agree to follow the rest of my needs or by Monday he will be gone until he does or doesn't decide he wants to. Did any of that make sense? :'(

He has done this over and over again to you. You heard him say on the VAR that he loves her. You are not in the wrong here. DO NOT let him off this time!

You deserve a loving, safe marriage. Being in a safe marriage means that your husband does not do anything to hurt you. Talking, texting, and meeting other women hurts you. You cannot life in a relationship that will hurt you any longer. Your husband needs to get on board with ALL of your EPs (extraordinary precautions) before you will allow him to return to your home. You really shouldn't allow him to return home until his actions have proven that he will no longer hurt you.

If he is telling you to apologize to her, then it means that he is still talking to her and it means that he puts her feelings ahead of yours. You are his wife! He should not be asking you to apologize to her! He should be apologizing to YOU, not accusing you of over-reacting. First things first all contact should have been stopped.

Why is he still talking to her?

TinT

"I put a VAC in his car and heard him saying he loves her."

And on top of that, he is protecting HER feelings instead of yours. Stand your ground!

He said she sent him the message then blocked him, which now that I think of is weird if there is nothing going on. I am really pissed off about the whole demanding an apology thing. Why should I apologize to her?! I said she should apologize to me! Why is she calling my husband all the time? If she doesn't want to be accused of being a tramp, she shouldn't be acting like one! I absolutely will not back down this time and whatever happens, happens. It's scary.

I'm not a vet here like the others so I don't know what to say, but I know you are in the right here. If he got the Plan B letter then you need to get him out, now, before he withdraws what is left of your love bank and you start hating him. You need to protect yourself. There should be no contact with you until he tells the IM that he will abide by the EPs!

Hugs and please take care of yourself,
TinT

Broken

Just wanted to chip in and say I understand where you are and the culture that surrounds you. My mother is Arabic and I visit Jordan to see family on a regular basis so I know what the customs and behaviours are and I am frankly quite shocked that a friendship between a married male and a divorced female isn't frowned upon where you are. My aunt works in a senior position at a national Jordanian newspaper and although she has been divorced for over 20 years she still won't be seen to be associating with any men what so ever because she is petrified of what people will think. I don't get how this woman can justify and be so brazen about her friendship with your WH. And I would point out to your WH that If he does see her as a friend he would be doing her a favour by staying away because he could "tarnish" her reputation. If he's going to incite the aab card so can you. It is very aab for a marrid man to be socialising with a divorced woman!!

And PS I don't think your crazy I definitely think they have been up to no good and this kind of behaviour needs to be stopped right now.

And as far as apologising goes tell him you will never apologise for protecting your marriage.

Seriously still laughing at him saying it's aab. Like telling another woman that he loves her is perfectly normal but telling said woman to leave your family alone all of a sudden he grows some morals. Double standards or what?

NB28,

I know!! That's exactly what I said. I'm the one doing something aab!?! I said "mo aab alay, aab alykoom!!" It is very much frowned upon, so I don't know what the hell she is thinking, of course I would be pissed, this is not America where it is normal to have opposite sex friendships, there are liberal people here and such, but to call a married man, or to answer his call is aab!! He said my message makes her look like a gahaba, I said she makes herself that way by talking to a married man, if she had any self respect she wouldn't allow it! If she is just a friend he wouldn't be so freakin defense and he would not have reacted the way he did when I told him I know he's talking to someone. He said it doesn't mean anything here to say "ahebich" and that I took it the wrong waya, that for Kuwaitits its normal. I don't think so, I've been here 11 years, I understand Arabic, I'm not an idiot. I know the difference the tone of voice and way of speaking between a friend and something more. Right now I don't care how mad he gets at me, I will not believe him and under no circumstances will I ever apologize to someone for defending my marriage and my family. If he can't understand that, then we have much bigger issues than this woman.

Oh,wah wah! Poor widdle adultery partner got into a poor widdle fender bender because she was so cruelly wronged! busted. She needs to yank up her Big Gurl panties and be ready to deal with being busted. Sorry about her insurance rates - NOT
They're not.
Remember this. You'll need this later. He's got to come completely clean for you to allow him to be in your life and recover this marriage. NO MORE SECRETS. If my husband tried that crap on me, he would find himself sitting on the curb in a heartbeat. You are NOT IMAGINING A THING. Do not second-guess yourself. He's playing his last card - to make you feel sorry for his ho and let the status stay quo.

Don't fall for that for a minute.

Remember, too, that he is not used to this 'new you.' You're actually ready to back up what you say with action. He's going to try to manipulate you. He will likely leave and bed down with friends, waiting for you to back off on your conditions. DON'T BACK DOWN. You're in prime position right now.

Have you gotten contact info for her family?

The OW is pressuring him to control you so you don't ruin her reputation and the fantasy romance with all your wifely actions.

He's read the "wayward handbook"

Blame-shifting
Gas-lighting
And making you doubt your sanity

There is a post somewhere on the site that has what the wayward says - and it's true definition. I'll see if I can find it for you. I had actually printed it out and kept it on my dresser. It might be in the "notable posts" section. Lots of great info there!


~RQ

Read these.
Never Take The Word of a Wayward
Craziest Things To Come Out Of A Wayward's Piehole

EXPOSE and go into plan b. asap. your wh is gaslighting you big time. exposure is your (especially yours!) best weapon. use it!

So this morning he asks me again to apologize to her. He said that she has nothing to do with our problem and that my message was really bad. I said I won't apologize for protecting our marriage. He said I can protect it any way I want but I don't have to drag innocent people into it, that she is the one that helps him most in his new position at work, that I am messing with his job. I asked again why she is calling him at 1am, he said he told her to call him. I asked why, he said to just talk because she is his buddy, she is old, she is a poor innocent person that I brought into our problem. I said if there is nothing wrong with the friendship, she would try to explain herself to me and would understand why I would feel this way and he said no, after getting that kind of message she should tell me to eff off and that she shouldn't have to explain anything to me. He said I should've called her and asked instead of making her look so bad in the message. He asked if I wanted to fix this, that I did something stupid and I need to correct it. I said I will not. He lied to me about talking to her when I confronted him and if it was nothing then he wouldn't have, he said it was because I attacked him, not asked. I did not attack. I said I know you're talking to someone, who is she. I asked repeatedly who she is, why didn't he tell me from the beginning if he has nothing to hide, even after ingave you many opportunites to tell me. He again said do you want to fix this or not, I said if fixing it means I send an apology, I will not. He said ok and left for work.

In my view, if I had a close friend from work, first of all my husband would know about it, second of all if his wife send me a similar message I would clarify with her the relationship and apologize if she got the wrong idea. If she is offended, she should be. I don't care if she got into an accident when she read my message, again, if she were a woman with any self respect, she would call me and try to explain the situation instead of telling my H that she got into an accident and that she is hurt that I questioned her honor by the words I chose to use. Now I don't know, what if there really isn't anything going on, that she is just a friend? How can I believe him when he has lied to me up until now? I asked him how he expects me to believe him, he said this is the first time he is asking me to apologize, as the other times i sent similar messages to previous OW, he didn't care but this time she really is innocent and it's his fault for lying but she is really just a close friend and I made a big mistake. My question is, how will I know if that is true?

broken Mama,

You believe your gut instinct, facts and you believe in the logic of the situation.
Although my mum is Arabic I am Italian and live in London, so I'm not a a conservative Arabic person but I fully understand the couture. He is 100% up to no good with this woman. If he was being friendly he would say things like 'habibty' (meaning my love and said to friends and family. He would not way in a million years the word he used to tell her he loves her. The word 'ahibich' Is strictly used by lovers or married people NOT friends. If any work colleague ever said that to my aunt she would slap him right across the face because it would be very very inappropriate.

Your going to have to play him at his own game, if he says he is stressed at work because she used to help him, reply- no problem i am more than happy to tell your boss what has been going on between you and this OW and I'm sure he won't hesitate to give you a different helper.

If he says you should apologise reply - if he is can convince your friends and family and his family that what he said and did is innocent after you let them near the recording then your will consider it.

He is gaslighting you and I am worried he is wearing you down when you and I both know that there is something highly inappropriate about this friendship. I seriously wonder what he would have done and if he would have given you any benefit of the doubt had he heard you saying ahibak to another man.

Brainhurts, that was EXACTLY what I was looking for LOL, Thanks!

BrokenMama, I read your last post and it was like deja vu. My WH told be just about all of the same crap.

Heard this, and it's BS. A marriage cannot be worked on with 3 people in it. Demand NC for life with her



She's sooo innocent, she has no problem messing with your family and jeopardizing his job. And he is also jeopardizing his job by messing with the skank. The fault lays on them alone!!




Blah, blah, bull crap bullcrap - all foggy babble. My WH had many,many,many did I mention many phone calls and texts all hours of the night to his skank and she was "just a friend"



She's not gonna call you because she is messing with your man. And if you do get her on the phone she will lie her trampy a$$ off. been there, done that!



Trust your gut and don't believe a word he says!!! She is not just a friend. Get spyware on the phone, get the proof that you need (if you feel you really need it) and expose.MY WH turned things around on me too, so that I questioned my instincts and let things go for too long. Don't make my mistake!
Sorry to sound so harsh here, but your post was a major trigger for me because it sounds just like how my WH's affair started. 2 months later, it became a PA.

Mama - here's the answer he needs to hear - softly. firmly. Once.

I see with your insistence of my apologizing to her, instead of the other way around, and you apologizing to me as well, that her feelings are more important to you than mine and that keeping her in your life is more important than keeping me - the mother of your children and the woman you profess to love. Since this is so obviously the case, I will not be discussing this or her or you and me anymore. We are done. Please go.

And then leave the room. Make it the end of the discussion.

He needs to hear clearly that you are not deceived.

If he comes in to discuss again, gently put a finger to his lips and tell him the discussion on that topic is over. That you love him but you will no longer allow him to insult your intelligence anymore.

Well he still hasn't come home from work so I'm assuming he's trying to test me. When he left this morning and asked if I would apologize and I refuse, he said ok, in a way that basically means "I'll show you". I absolutely will not back down. I will not accept this treatment from him. I will not apologize for their mistake. He can get as pissed off as he likes, I'm not an idiot, I'm not a moron and I no longer believe anything he says. I have a feeling he will sleep outside tonight and tomorrow, to test me. I will be strong. I will be strong for the marriage we deserve to have. I will be strong for the way I expect to be treated. If he can't or won't do that, well then, I guess I will have to deal with that later.

The madder he is......the more telling that he is in an affair.

People who are not cheating are not offended by spouses thinking they are...they are flattered that the spouse loves them and cares.

Agree.

Read this. Snooping is it right or wrong?

I told his older brother, his mom and his two sisters today. They are all 100% supportive of me. He really looks up to his brother and I know when he talks to him, it will have an impact. He will try to tell them she is just a friend. I told them about him trying to get me to give her an apology, they laughed and said what the hell is he thinking?! No way you should give an apology and he is so wrong and this cannot go on. Not only about this woman, about his behaviors in general, hiding things from me and not being transparent. I feel such a huge relief to have told them and even more that they agree I should kick him out. His family loves me, they know what kind of wife I am and how lucky he is to have me, if only he could see the same. :'(

keep up the exposure, brokenmama, don't stop now.

you asked earlier if you were crazy, if she was really just a "friend." i think your screen name says it all.

you've started exposure and seen how much better it makes *you* feel. now finish it and get the job done. get that OW out of your life.

He came home last night and went straight to bed without a word to me. Got up this morning and left, took his toothbrush and still not a word. His brother will talk to him tonight. I know he thinks I'll back down and he will be SHOCKED that I told his brother. I will send a message to his best friend now. I haven't found any contact between them since I sent the message to her. She is either scared to death, pissed, or both.

who cares what she is? finish the exposure. have you read rainysweet's thread? she sat on the fence for sooooo long, but finally did expose and she is a new person! you can be too.

you need to *kill* the affair. just exposing your WH is not enough. it's like not finishing a course of antibiotics - the ick can come back because you didn't finish killing it off, you only wounded it. it can even come back stronger than before, because you help immunize it. (ie: affair can go further underground.)

if you expose her, your WH will not be able to continue his behaviour because her family/workplace will be all over her. the affair will be dead, and then you can start rebuilding your M.

take a deep breath, mama, and just do it. no matter what happens after, you will be so much better off. remember, this is to SAVE your marriage. we don't want to help you end your M, we want to help you get it into recovery. exposure is your first step.

have you read up on plans a and b?

I have read up on them and truly believe that I cannot do plan a, as I've done it many times and it doesn't stop him from doing the same thing again, that's why I have to do plan B. I have told him to leave by Monday and by the looks of things, that's what is going to happen unless he decides to come clean and become totally transparent and honest. I will expose to I can on her side. His brother talked to him today, he came home around 9pm and still didn't say a word, went straight to bed and seems depressed. I am standing firm. I will not back down. This is really hard though, I go up and down with emotions, one minute I'm so sad and just want to cry, the next I'm so mad I could kill him for doing this to us. This sucks.

atta girl!

yes, this does suck. and you are now on the roller coaster, so your feelings will change, sometimes, minute to minute. keep breathing. remember, you want to be the attractive option.

even when the A is dead, your WH will be depressed. this will be hard - you'll want him to wake up and see how wonderful you and your M are. this will take time, as the fog needs to clear. when you're feeling yucky - post here.

you are right about Plan B. Plan A doesn't get results until you go to plan b. that's why you haven't been successful before. make good use of your last 3 days so that what he remembers is positive. you can do 3 days. believe me, i know how hard it is, when want you really want to do is vomit on them! no tears, no pleading, just good food, nice house, pretty and sweet you. no affair talk! you can do 3 days. you have PB to look forward to as your short-term goal.

now, long term goals: do you have an IM? are you prepared to speak with your children? are you ready to do exposure all at once? don't drip feed it.


good girl. keep it up. 3 more days.

Ok, question, should I be plan a-ing him now? He isn't speaking to me so I wouldn't really know how I could without it seeming like I just want to make up and let things blow over...

I have no one else to expose to besides his friends and whoever I can find on her side. I've told their boss, not sure if anything will be done. I do have an IM and if he let's it get to the point of moving out on Monday, I will tell the kids then.

yes, you should be plan a-ing. look good, smell good, cook good. he doesn't have to talk to you. you can talk to him, though. "honey, i've made swedish meatballs for dinner. would you like some?" if he doesn't reply, you can say, "ok, i'll put a plate in the fridge for you to heat up later" or some such thing. there's nothing wrong with him thinking you want to make up (because that is the long-long-term goal, right? recovery). he'll get the message on monday that to do so, HE needs to change. your short-term goal is to leave a good impression. your long-term goal is to mean it (plan b).

have you written your PB letter? that's something you can do this weekend. there are templates on here.

good that you've exposed him. you don't have any power over what happens after. however, you must expose her. sorry, i'm getting confused. are you in the states? you can always go above the boss's head. there's a letter template for that too.

glad to hear you have an IM - that's wonderful! sometimes getting an IM is a huge hurdle, so you've done good work there. yes, you can tell the kids monday. age appropriate (how old are they?) but totally honest. use the word "adultery" not "affair."

good girl, mama. keep breathing. having a plan empowers you. you no longer have to just sit back and take it. atta girl!

Kids are 14, 11, 9, 6 and 9 month old twins. I don't live in the States so I have a lot of hurdles here.

ok. i don't either, so i know what you mean. and my, you're busy!

here are the plan b letter templates

Okay, you've given him a deadline. He's got until Monday.

BM, this is very trying emotionally. Can you see a doctor for antidepressants to help you while you're going through this? You need all the support you can muster at this point.

Be very clear, sweetie: you are NOT crazy. You are NOT insecure, or lacking self-esteem. And you're not controlling, or any other word your WH is going to throw at you to manipulate you into backing off.

NO FAITHFUL MAN ENDANGERS HIS FAMILY FOR AN 'OLD, POOR, SICK WOMAN' WHO IS 'JUST A FRIEND'.

Sounds like a good plan, BM. Get him out. Then you can relax and breathe. You're busy enough with your children. You need less stress. Good luck!

So today I was plan a and we talked a little. He said he found a place and it will be ready in 2 weeks. He said we need a break because I don't trust him and he doesn't like being spied on, there are some conversations with his friends he doesn't want me to hear and that he wants some privacy. I said there is no privacy in marriage and the way to earn my trust back is very simple, be honey and transparent. Tell me everything that you've been hiding or lying about through omission. He said he did. I don't agree. He said he doesn't want to keep going over and over, I said you didn't really answer anything, you're being vague and. So now what? Should I push him to get out and plan a him at the same time? Do I keep bringing it up or what?

He doesnt want privacy......but he wants secrecy......

Privacy - using the restroom.....

Secrecy - taking his phone to the restroom to text/email/speak to his adultery partner

Yup....now that you know he is cheating on you......you are cramping his style and he needs to move to keep it going.

This is going to be his official explanation to his friends and family as to why he is moving out. Make sure you explain to everyone that you have asked him to leave because his infidelity is damaging your marriage and family.

Has he explained what he's going to do between Monday - his move-out date - and the two weeks he has to wait until his place is ready? Surely he doesn't intend to burden you with his adulterous presence for the next two weeks? Surely you haven't backed down on your required move-out date?

thx Pep.....i failed to finish typing my thought.......forgive my moment

t/j over

mama, how's it going today? are you able to plan a? do you have plan b ready to go on monday? please don't allow him to stay 2 more weeks. that will be very detrimental for you, and enables him. he needs to see what life will be like with the choices he is making.

please check in. i'm worried about your health.

So should I tell him to find somewhere else to stay until his so called place is ready (I don't believe he found a place, just trying to scare me)? I'm not sure what my next move is. I know, and I've told him, there is no privacy in a marriage. Should I continue to plan a him while he's here, or ignore him except to tell him to get out? Should I keep asking him to be honest or what? I'm so confused as what i should do! There hasn't been any contact since I sent her the message, he stayed home this weekend. His brother did talk to him and he asked me why I told him, I said because I want it to stop and maybe he can help you get your sh** together. I need help as to what I should do...

I'm ok, this morning I asked if I could lay down with him, one thing led to another, and he just kept telling me he loves me over and over, how he can't live without me. I said you love me, yet you don't want to be honest and you want privacy, it doesn't work. He said that spying on him is wrong and he doesn't like it, nobody would and that since I don't trust him then maybe we should separate. I just said I don't trust you but you can get trust back by being honest. Same thing over and over again. I just don't know what to do. I have a horrible headache and have stomach problems today. I don't know if I'm supposed to plan a him until he leaves, or what.

yes, plan a all you can. avoid talking about him moving out. but it's ok to say that you want a "great marriage when he has NC with OW."

you should pack his stuff and change the locks on monday. put his things outside with your PB letter.

the things he's saying about privacy - all waywards talk that way. it's simply proof that he's wayward. when he comes out of the fog, you will know he's not wayward anymore when he opens his life to you willingly.

remember, it's not your job to worry about how he will cope when you put him out. he's a big boy, and he can manage the consequences of his actions. once you're in plan b, it will be all about you. you will find yourself posting here a lot. that is good!

i see you said "one thing led to another." there are divided opinions here on sf with an active wayward. however, you are in plan a, and it would have been difficult not to, though you could have said how much you enjoyed being intimate (cuddling with him) and that you looked forward to sf when he does NC.

neak is one who used sf as a weapon in her plan a arsenal, you should read her thread on monday when you have time. i have to admit that i used sf as well - i knew that no one would be able to hold a candle to me in the bedroom and i could really make his head spin! but my OW was a continent away, so i didn't have sf-related problems to worry about, and may have acted completely differently if she had been here and he'd been having sf with her. plus, he'd had a sexual health screen.

it's your decision how you choose to act with your H. only you know what you can and are willing to do. but don't say things like "if you loved me" right now. let him have the memory of a good time with you without any negativity. you could say something like "we could have sf like this every day if you would commit to NC with OW."

stay strong mama. i'm sorry about your tummy troubles. it will probably get worse between now and tuesday, but you will feel better after that. some immodium (sp?) perhaps?

Ok. This is just so frustrating and difficult!! I will plan a until Monday. I will remain firm, pack his bags and give him letter when he gets back from work.

Don't GIVE him the letter! Change the locks and leave everything on the porch WITH the letter, like Letty said. You don't give him a no contact letter to say you will no longer be in contact. You're done at that point. You're in Plan B. Show him you mean it by leaving the letter and his things outside, by locking the doors and not answering. Stay firm. Don't give him a chance to argue, sweet talk, try to get out of it or weaken your resolve. Where he does or does not go is not your worry.

Ok. Crap. I hate him for doing this to us.

that's normal :O) see how you feel in 5 minutes. you will be up and down and angry and sad. it's normal and good to feel this way. you have been put through a lot! but as you start being proactive, you will gain strength.

It is so difficult. I can't just change the locks, his mom lives with us, she supports me but I don't want to stress her out by making it more traumatic for her. I will pack his bags and when he comes home, he will find them and the letter. I can't accept this BS of needing privacy and if he thinks I'm controlling and whatever, he can be as 'free' as a frikkin bird and have as much privacy as he wants outside of this house. I am fed up. It will be so hard for my kids, that's the worst part of this whole thing. today he kept insisting she is just a friend and again said that me sending her a message was wrong. I said he should've expected it as I've done it in the past to so called "friends" of his. I don't know. I don't know anything anymore.

Loads of crap. We all hate them for doing this. I'm so sorry. But you will feel better when you start to stand up for yourself.

You sound like me:) You CAN change the locks! Explain to his mother that you love him, that he refuses to stop what he is doing, and that you feel this is the best chance you have to save your marriage. I think she will support you.

That really is what you should do. If you won't, at least be gone WITH the children, and don't come home until you are sure he's gone.

Ahh, good idea Rainysweet! That I can do!

Yes, you should tell him that he needs to get out on Monday. That was your date. He knew it. If he wants to continue to consort with his old, sick, decrepit, poor adultery partner, he needs to get the hell out of your house and not sicken you and your children with his adultery. You already drew the line in the sand - he's trying to change that. He doesn't get to do that. If he refuses to dump that piece of scum, he needs to GET OUT. Where he goes is not your problem.

Brokenmama, you are doing well and receiving some great advice. I understand how you feel about changing the locks given your MIL lives with you. Rainy's idea about leaving the house whilst he collects his things is a good way to relieve the stress of seeing him move out.

You are right, it is unacceptable that WS have the A and then accuse the BS of all kinds of things to get them to back off. They don't like any interference in their secret life. I know it hurts, but try to remember its all foggy babble. WS also like to portray the BS as the "bad guy" to justify their behaviour and given them an excuse (in their foggy mind)to have/continue the A. As MB stated, he will tell everyone this is the reason you separated, this another benefit of exposure, it gets the truth out there.

I know its not easy, some days (even hours)are better than others. Everything you have felt so far and continue to feel is normal. Stay strong and keep posting you will continue to find encouragement and support from all the MBers.

So if you leave, Mama, just make sure you hold fast. Be prepared to stay the night somewhere else if you have to. Don't contact him, or answer a call from him. Leave the Plan B letter, with a note asking him to please collect his things and leave so that you can bring your children home for the night. In fact maybe you could even say something like, "Please collect your things and be gone by 8:00pm so that I can return and put the children to bed." Don't apologize, and don't leave the children at home - make sure you take them with you.

Then have your MIL call you when he is gone, or drive by and make sure his car is gone before you come home. (Did I see on here you don't have a car? I'm thinking maybe I did, so if that is the case hopefully MIL will call you, or you could call her).

But I would be prepared in case he doesn't leave, thinking you will come home and cave. DON'T. Stay away for the night if you must.

Good luck. I know it's so hard.

Mama, you're not planning to leave your home, are you?? Absolutely do not leave your home! Your WH leaves. Not you and your children.

i am concerned WH won't leave the house if he has access. you really should explain to your MIL. you may be pleasantly surprised. surely she knows there's something going on. besides, you want her on your side if she's living there.

change the locks. don't allow access. and do NOT, under any circumstances, engage with him. be prepared to *hear* lots of i'm sorrys, i've ended it, etc that he will use to gain access and try to manipulate you.

Thought I'd better clarify this, Mama:

I didn't mean she should permanently leave her home. I just meant if she refused to change the locks (which I DO think is by far the best alternative), it would be better if she was not there when he got home to get the Plan B letter, get his things, and get out. And that she might have to be prepared to stay away for a few hours if he didn't leave right away, to get the point across.

If she won't change the locks, how else will she do it? Only other way is a direct confrontation, trying to force someone she can't compete with physically to leave while he's either begging, pleading, and promising; or else being abusive and scary.

For the record, I WISH YOU WOULD change the locks, Mama! Try talking to MIL. I think that's a good idea. If she knows you love her son, knows the situation and what you're trying to do, it sounds like she would be supportive.

I have read of others who started Plan B who packed the H's bags for him and set the bags and the letter out on the porch. Locks already changed at that point. Or the bags could be driven to some friend's home. Anything the WS still needs can be communicated through the IM.

i did the same - had locks changed, put bag & letter on porch. however. the most important thing was he was OUT. being able to go on the offense like that is so empowering, putting you in control from then on.

after however long of feeling you're out of control of your life, mama, this will be the first step in taking it back!

how's it going? one more day! you can do this!

have you spoken w/MIL? your IM is ready? plan B letter ready to go? i think you and i are on a 9 hour time difference, so you must be sound asleep at the mo. i will check back later.

My MIL knows, as well as both SIL and my BIL. They are all on my side and completely support me. Of course they don't want it to have to go as far as a separation, but they will support me no matter what I do. They know he is wrong.

I told him today that he cannot stay here during the 2 weeks he's supposedly waiting for his place to be ready. He said he knows as I again reminded him of the date I told him he had until. There has been no contact between them and now I'm not sure how to get him to write a NC letter as the message I sent as the people I exposed to seemed to have stopped it dead in its tracks. I'm not sure what the hell he is thinking. Sorry for tmi, but we have had SF for past 3 nights, after tonight I reminded him that it could only get better should he choose to let it. He just says I know and I love you more than anything, so I'm not sure what the hell is holding him back. I don't know if he's trying to be stubborn or what but I did say "you know I'm not your enemy" and again he agrees with me. This is just so new to me, first time we are intimate, speaking to each other and all but have this tension as well. I think he may be hoping it will kind of go away without having to talk about it. I guess we'll see soon enough. I don't think I have to go to the extent of changing the locks, I'll tell his mom that I asked him to move and I don't want to make a scene in front of our kids so she can back me up.

BM, change the locks anyway. Your WH will likely try to test your resolve by showing up and trying to walk in to his home. Cut off that avenue entirely. We've had numerous Plan B'ers have their efforts thwarted by this.

They probably didn't want it to go as far as infidelity, but it did. And I suspect they don't won't it to go as far as divorce, which is the next step unless you take this decisive action. Understand this: your wayward is going to test you to see if you mean what you say. Make sure your MIL and children understand to NOT open the door to him. They need to stay completely away from the door so they are not drawn into a conversation with their son/father.

good on you, mama! you're taking the right steps to support your M. i will be thinking of you tomorrow while i'm at work. keep strong. don't answer the door!

Good luck! Will check on you tomorrow. You can do this!

how's it going, mama? sending best wishes your way.

Hi Mama, How are you? How did it go with WH moving out? Our thoughts are with you.

hey, mama, how are you today? how did yesterday go? i hope you're ok. worried, but understand that you may just be busy with the kids with all the hubbub.

Thinking about you, BM. Update, please?

oh dear. i hope we haven't lost her.

mama, i hope everything's ok with you. check in when you can.

Hello all, I'm still here! Nothing happened so far, I did remind him that the kids have finished their exams. I went to visit a friend who just had triplets and on the way he called me. He said he didn't know why he chose that time but he can't seem to talk to me when I'm in the same room, I'm guessing it's guilt! Anyway, he asked if I really wanted him to leave, I said yes, I can't continue to allow him to lie and keep things from me. Again he insisted they are just good friends and reacted the way he did when I first confronted him because he says I 'attacked' him with questions. He says he really doesn't like me spying and listening to his conversations, I said too freakin bad. 30 minutes of the same crap over again and we didn't get anywhere. His bags will be packed tomorrow. I can't continue to live like this with this feeling I have in my chest, like there's stuff he wants to tell me but for some reason can't. It is a horrible feeling.

Yes, sounds like he is still cake-eating. Don't allow it anymore, mama. Pack the bags, leave them outside with the Plan B letter and get dark.

Good for you for not falling for his lines of crap.

~RQ

Rocketqueen, while looking at your siggy I noticed some similarities and just wanted to ask, how did you get the truth out of WS? Was kicking him out enough for him to just come out and say it? Did you have proof of PA or only EA? I see so many people write about their spouse having EA and was just wondering if these people just come out and admit PA or what.

I think my actual question is... If WS has been lying so far and then admits EA, at what point do you believe them that there hasn't been PA without proof? When WS says "ok, I'll come clean and tell you everything", other than a polygraph, how does one know? Does that sound like an idiotic question...if so I apologize. I'm just so confused right now. I don't know what the hell to believe and then if he does decide to tell me, I don't know if he will tell me everything or just enough... I don't know.

Mama, I had proof of a EA from November until January. It was after I kicked him out of the marital home that it became a PA. I don't really believe that but that is what he has confessed to me. At the time, he seemed to be remorseful about it and I gave him an opportunity to go NC but he wouldn't and the PA continued (and I know this through my snooping).

It wasn't until I was able to enact Plan B (even for just a short time) that brought my WH to his senses. It was when he realized what he had lost (not so much what he had put us through) that he decided to go NC with skank and commit to recovery.

I think in your case, you would need a polygraph. You need to know if there was a physical relationship for your health and for your sanity. It is not fair for him to keep you in the dark about that. For me, it doesn't matter (too much) WHEN the PA started, it's bad enough that there was one

Does that make sense?

Just an update...

I packed his bags and gave him letter. He said he doesn't want to leave and he'll do anything I want to save our marriage. We sent the NC letter, he said that his actions and his friendship with her was hurtful to me and that he was wrong. �He gave me passwords to everything. Agreed to no going out without me knowing exactly where he is and checking in. No more opposite sex friends. Will start marriage counseling. Does not want 'privacy' anymore. Told me that she really is just a friend and that he shouldn't have been having conversations with her, that he never had any romantic feelings towards her. I told him that if he is going outside of our marriage and having another woman meet any of his needs, it is cheating, whether there are romantic feelings involved or not. He agreed. He said he will be completely transparent and honest, he loves me, loves our family and doesn't want to destroy it.�

I am having a hard time though. How do you move on? How does one know if they are being truthful when I cannot have a polygraph done? How do I ensure we don't have a false recovery? If he agreed to everything, do I just go back to plan A and meeting his needs? I will snoop, probably forever. I hope that he is sincere, I just don't know how to move forward. Advice on the whole situation from you guys would be helpful. Thank you so much for everything!�

Have you read this to educate you on false recoveries.
False Recoveries
False recovery need voices of experience
Requirements for Recovery of an Affair

Can you do the online program or MB coaching instead of marriage counseling?

Great thank you, I'll read them now!

I think the online coaching may be possible but I don't know if mb coaching is as I am half way around the world...

hi mama! hmmm...

your WH is telling you everything you want to hear. do read the false recovery threads, because false recovery is a real danger, and even more hurtful (if you can imagine) than the original betrayal. it's the lying that is the worst thing, because you wonder if you can ever believe anything they say again.

however, if he is *acting* on your EPs, this is a start. between their actions and UA time, you really can start working towards recovery. but he needs to go whole hog if it's going to be real. you need to be very careful (verify, verify, verify!), and some coaching with SH/SJC would be very beneficial.

i too am halfway around the world. i have a calling plan that makes it cheaper to call the USA (where all my family lives). i emailed the coaching center, purchased a block of appointments (they are cheaper that way - and i rang with my credit card #). so we were able to do the coaching over the phone. SH is very good at dealing with WHs.

there is also the online programme, but since your WH hasn't had the full effect of PB, some one-on-one may be more appropriate at this time.

i would feel much better about this change of heart if OW had been exposed. but your the BW, and it's your needs that are important.

you will not feel confident right now. only through time, WHs actions, and UA will you become ok.

i hope your WHs actions show you that he loves you and is committed to your marriage. you will have to keep the bar VERY high. don't allow any behaviour that is reflective of the EA (but avoid LBs). get that UA time rolling!

Thank you Letty. I am very wary about it and he knows that it's going to be an uphill battle to earn my trust back but so far he is trying. He is spending more time with me and the kids, is being very open. I asked him about where he goes every Thursday and Friday night, I am aware he is with the guys but the LOCATION is what I wanted to hear from him. For the past 3 years he told me they hang out at his friend's house but I have known that they actually all rented an apartment to hang out at. Here the men gather at a certain room in a friend's house nightly, drink tea, discuss sports, politics, this is the society and women absolutely do not go. His friends drink and therefore cannot do it at anyone's house so they rented an apartment (not unusual). My DH told me about it when they were first discussing it 3 years ago. I was supportive (most men do not and will not ever tell their wives). �Anyway, he didn't tell me when they actually did and I've known about it. I asked him and he told me the truth. They rented the apt and he didn't tell me before so as time went on he felt it was too late. One of my requirements was for him to tell me exactly where he is. I said he could've told me many times as I have known all along and gave him chances to tell me, he thought I would be angry. Anyway, it may seem like a small thing but it is a huge sign to me that he is willing to do make our marriage better. He has told me repeatedly how relieved he feels that I know now. He said he felt like he would be breaking his friends' trust by telling me but knows now that the only person's trust he wants is mine. He promised to tell me everything from now on, no more secrets, no more omitting anything. I hope this is the case and I know only time will tell.�

I have a question though, at what point does one tell their spouse about MB? I mean, shouldn't I wait for a while to make sure he is indeed wanting recovery and not just trying to make me happy until it all 'blows over'? I know I sound skeptical of him but I can't help it.�

i'm glad to hear you're seeing some changes.


hmm, i'm not an expert there. my H knew about MB from the start, because i wanted to build a MB marriage before i knew there was trouble brewing.

i think you can talk in terms of concepts (openness and honesty, lovebusters, LB$, etc) while you are working on this. the terms simplify (distill) things, are easy to understand, and easy to manage discussion about relationship things. it's a heck of a lot easier (and better) to be able to say that something is a lovebuster making a w/drawal from your LB$, or, conversely, an EN making a deposit! you want to sell him on the programme, and so have to show its benefits to him. i personally don't think springing the whole shebang on him at once would be a way to do that.

you should sound skeptical. i'd be worried if you didn't!

my H went through counselling with SH, and was really put out by it (steve calls a spade a spade!). however, he is onboard with MB now, as he's seeing the results of using the programme. despite his issues with talking with SH, it was money well spent.

once your H is onboard with things going well *using* MB, you can introduce him to the whole programme. but i'd like input from vets on that. committing to using the whole programme is what will recover your marriage, so it's what you're going to need to do. the timeline is the question.

vets?

Hi all,

Just an update. DH is being very open and loving, not going out, calling me from work, spending more time with me and kids. I'm still checking and haven't found anything. I am still wary about showing him MB, is that wrong? I'm not sure if it is too early and would just like some advice as to when it is a good time.

Don't tell him about MB.

Are you telling us that he is still in the house? Wasn't he supposed to be out? Did you not tell him this? He is playing you. He was supposed to be out. You have shown him that you don't mean what you say. This will not help you. Do you want to end his affair or not??

Has he sent the NC letter? Has this affair been exposed? What have you done to expose the affair?

You're waiting for him to do the right thing. HE'S NOT GOING TO. You're going to have to make this happen, BM. But it's not going to happen if you let him play you.

We did send the NC letter. I packed his bags and gave his plan b letter, that's when he said he do anything I want to stay together. He gave me all passwords, agreed to no opposite sex relationships, agreed to transparency and everything I've asked of him. I updated about all of that last week. Am I still supposed to kick him out?

What were all your conditions in your Plan B letter? What EPs has he set up? What conditions led to his affair? Have these been eliminated?

If he doesn't come correct you could be set up for a false recovery.

Have you read these?
False Recovery
False recovery voice of experience

These are the ever looming questions most of us BS�s have. Unfortunately, there is no clear cut answer. It is highly personal. Losing the security of your M is like swimming in the ocean without a life preserver. We know too well how it feels to have your instincts that you have relied upon in your marriage vanish.

What I can tell you is that for me at least, following MB�s to the fullest extent for a full 5 months now with a FWW fully on-board, I am starting to get a sense (albeit small) of security returning. Only with continued ACTIONS over a very long period of time will you know if they are being truthful.

Unfortunately for us, we had a 9mo FR and it was indeed much worse than the A itself. I wish I would have had MB at that time. It would have potentially saved a tremendous amount of heartbreak.

The feelings you have now are temporary. As hard as that is to digest at this time, it is indeed true that you will have a point in time when you will feel relief, however this turns out for you.

The vets here will certainly guide you on the best path. If however, you can find a way to fully incorporate MB�s into your recovery, Feelings do Follow Actions.

MB saved my M. I truly believe we would not be recovering so wonderfully without it and would be Divorced. Time Time Time. It is indeed a marathon not a sprint. Be prepared for many highs and lows.

One additional thought that Dr Harley has proved time and time again.

EP's in my M is what my trust is fully based on. As he says, we are all wired for an A. Actions indeed are the key. Words are cheap. EP's and boundaries with the opposite sex will help you gain a basis of trust.

mama, how's it going? is he still on board? the thing is, often a spouse will agree to everything, behave the way you've always hoped, but once they see it works, they will slide backwards. i hope your WH has seen the light, but you still need to be diligent. do you have an update? please reply to BHs Qs.

Tell us what's been going on since the last time you posted.

Please remind me - was the affair exposed? Has your WH written an NC letter that you approved of and mailed to OW?

I exposed to everyone I could. We sent NC letter. He has agreed to everything I've asked. He gave me passwords to everything, agreed to no opposite sex friendships, is spending more time with us and goes out only on Thursday. He calls me when he gets there, answers my calls while he is there, is so far transparent.

What other EP should I put in place? Should I be doing more?

Look at this Extraordinary Precautions

Listen to this radio clip of what Dr. Harley tells a WH he needs to do to save his marriage.
Radio clip at 3:50 mark

Thank you BrainHurts, I will read and listen now.

You're very welcome.

Good and let us know what you think and any questions.

I'm going to have to have him write a list of EPs that he feels is what's needed for compensation, then I will add whatever is needed by me to the list. So far he has been very open, loving, and the whole nine yards, I just need more time I think before I'll start to feel better.

I will sit down with him tomorrow and ask him to make the list. I'll also discuss his top EN and tell him mine, we may very well think something different than what they are!

Oh, yesterday the kids were out so we spent pretty much the whole day alone, talking about everything from when we first met up until now. Quite a few ENs were met by both of us yesterday and it was a very good day. Today he kept telling me how much fun it was, hugging me, kissing me, and said we have to do it more often. I told him we need to start spending A LOT more time alone together so tomorrow we're planning on going for coffee and breakfast, something we used to do but haven't in a very long time!

I would have both of you fill these out.
EN questionnaire
Lovebusters questionnaire

Thank you once again Brainhurts, will get on it ASAP.

How are things going there?

do you do this? how's the EP list going?

I haven't done it yet, I know I should but I'm not sure how to approach him about making a list when everything is going so well. We went out to eat and he took me to a restaurant that we've never been before. He kept insisting that he took me there and I said he didn't then I just couldn't get the thought out of my head that maybe he took someone else and thought it was me. How do you stop those kind of thoughts? How does one talk about EP and other things related to this subject without it being a LB?

asking for what you need in a relationship is not an LB. telling your H he does a crappy job of meeting your ENs IS an LB! see the difference?

you said you had conditions in your letter, right? he is banking you won't follow up on them. you need to. have him get out the letter and talk about it.

Ok, I will. Thank you Letty! He's really wanting us to travel, which I think would be good. I also sent his resume to various companies and when he gets offered a job, he will take it. He doesn't have a problem changing jobs, he knows I hate his current one because of all the skanks that work there and seem to not care if a man is married or not. I wouldn't be surprised by the number of them that wouldn't mind becoming a second wife, unfortunately that is another problem here. It is not allowed socially to date, but if one wants to marry a married man, it's legal, although there are many families that do not like it. These women here are vultures and that sucks when my DH seems to like attention from women and has poor boundaries.

travelling is good. the harleys recommend a break together if you can take one. when i finally got NC, H and i went on a 10 day holiday together, alone (my mother flew over to take our DD). it was a great way to reconnect. it was our first extended holiday together, but not the last! we make a point now to get away every term break. i love it, and he does too.

mama, where are you? what's going on? update, please :O)

We're going to Paris for a week for my birthday! Things have been much better, lots of EN being met on both sides, only one fight, which was about packing luggage for kids to travel, but otherwise very very well! He is very open and honest, spending much more time together and it's been great. Very excited for the vacation, it will be our first extended one alone since having kids as well as our visit to France so we are both really looking forward to it! Thank you for asking Letty!

So, what happened with the OW? Did you expose? What precautions did you put in place to ensure your safety in your marriage? Have you told your children? What has been done to ensure the end of the affair? Are you snooping?

I'm sorry, but if your husband told another woman that he loved her, the chance is very good that there is a physical affair that you're dealing with, here.

hi mama. glad to hear about your wonderful trip!

you got a NC letter, good. you've gotten passwords, good. you've gotten transparency, good! i think you feel you're getting JC, is that right?

where are you with EPs? it's important that your M become affair-proof, and EPs are what does it.

MartialBliss, Yes, NC letter sent, exposed to everyone back when I found out he was talking to her. It definitely ended then. She hasnt tried to contact him nor he her. I think one of the biggest influences was his brother confronting him, he is more like a father to him and he was shocked that I told him everything. My bil pretty much said if you keep this behavior up, we will support your wife and you'll be out on your [censored]. I have all passwords to emails, phone, fb, everything. Still snooping, don't blindly trust him! I have made the list of EP and he is enthusiastically following it. I am sure that there is no contact, he is doing everything he can to try to work on our marriage. I feel I am getting JC and I'm definitely looking and his actions, not listening to what he says he will do but what he is actually doing is what makes me know that he is doing what I said must be done in order for me to stay.

What are the list of EPs? I woild post them here so the board can give you feedback.

What about changing all of his contact information? Phone number, email?

1. No friendships with members of opposite sex.
2. Call me when arriving at place and answer immediately if I call.
3. Leave phone with me when at home.
4. Do not delete anything from phone
5. Spend more time with kids
6. Drink only on weekend
7. Be open and honest about anything I ask

So far that's all I have and he is complying with them all.

Okay.
I read your list.
I also read your post on Page 2. You said his alcohol abuse was out of control.

Let me explain something about the disease of alcoholism: An alcoholic does not choose to drink. They don't choose to abuse alcohol. Just how a cancer patient doesn't choose cancer.
You cannot try to "fix" your alcoholic husband by saying he is only allowed to be a drunk on the weekend. The mere fact that alcohol made it on your list shows its a problem.

I suggest you join AlAnon so you can learn how not to be dependent on your husband. They have a 12 step program to help spouse "emotionally disconnect" from their alcoholics so that you can live a happy, sane life.
You CANNOT control your husbands alcoholism. You may as well find a brick wall to bang your head against.
If anything your list of condition of drinking on the weekend ENABLES your alcoholic husband.
You can't plan A with an untreated alcoholic.

Dr Harley also encourages spouses of alcoholic to join AlAnon.

Also alcoholism is a progressive disease.
Expect things to get worse befor they get better

The problem is that alcoholism, even though you may not have the disease HAS affected you.
You need to recover from alcoholism. When we live with an alcoholic we can actually loose touch with normality. We begin to "circle the wagons" around our family o keep outsiders from looking too closely at us.
AlAnon teaches that we actually need to regain our sanity.

I think you should call the radio show for advice. Tell them your husband I an alcoholic. Tell them you enable him and ask what Dr Harley recommends.

I think you should stop fo focusing on your marital recovery and focus on your personal recovery. You do that in AlAnon

Please listen to this clip.
Radio clip on alcoholics

I disagree. They choose, every time they pick up a drink - or don't. Your analogy of alcoholism vs. cancer is unsupportable. There are people who lead completely healthy lives who succumb to cancer. An alcoholic chooses to abuse his/her body and relationships with alcohol. They absolutely choose to drink. They absolutely choose to abuse alcohol. I am stunned that you believe otherwise.

Maritalbliss I understand your argument: that the alcoholic has control over their actions and is responsible for their actions.
However, AlAnon teaches that:
The alcoholic has NO control over their addiction.
The First of 12 Steps is to admit that they don't have control.
Spouses of alcoholics must similarly admit that they have NO control over the disease.

Most alcoholics live miserable unfulfilling lives. They do not want to drink. They have a co-dependent relationship with alcohol.
Similarly, spouses of alcoholics have unhealthy co-dependent relationship with the alcoholic.

They cannot choose not to be alcoholics. Just how a person with blue eyes cannot choose not to have blue eyes. Their only hope is to turn their lives over to God and work the 12 steps to CONTROL the addiction.

I don't disagree. I'm saying that alcoholics can choose NOT TO DRINK. It's the only way they're going to move to recovery as a sober survivor. It's the only prescription for recovery from alcoholism.

Cancer patients don't have the luxury of choosing not to have cancer. They can't NOT do something to remove what will possibly cause their death. THAT is an uncontrollable disease. There's NOTHING they can do to stop the progress of the disease.

mama, have you had your trip to paris? how are things going at home?

Hi all! We just got back from Paris, it was amazing. We had such a wonderful time, really great. We really reconnects and it was so nice. I saw the posts about alcoholism and AlAnon. I understand what you are saying although we don't have any such programs here so I would need to try to find out about it online. It is Ramadan now and DH will not drink for this month. (Don't ask about why it's ok other times, that's just how he is.) He has slowed down a lot and drank surprisingly little on our trip. I don't know how to approach this subject with him though because he has cut down a lot and it's like I feel it would be a huge LB just to bring it up.

hi mama! sorry i missed your post. i am glad to hear the trip went well.

are you guys working the programme? remember, it is hard (and i know) to recover the M completely without using MB. UA time and EN meeting is imperative!

hope things are going well for you.

Hi Letty! So far so good! We are spending more than 15 hours of UA together as well as meeting ENs. I'm hoping they continue this way! I'm still always on the lookout, checking up and verifying and that makes me feel better. Thank you for asking, I appreciate it.

so glad things are going well, and that you're continuing to do MB work! yay!

So this sucks. I just found WH whatsapp convo with some new skank. He asked get why she didn't reply to him, she said she just woke up. He asked if she's going out, she said no and he said good. Then she sent his a link to a short porn video. He didn't say anything after that and today the conversation was deleted. I'm at a loss. I don't know if I should plan a and snoop done more, or just confront him. I know he'll say it's nothing, he's sorry, it's a mistake, he's stupid and the same script as the other times. :'(

So I found chats with his best friend talking about going to parties among other things like what time are the girls coming over. I told him I know and I can only assume he slept with them. I exposed to everyone and sent his best friend a sms starting that I know everything, of course he's denying it. That was last night. WH said today that he should be mad at me for accusing him and his friends of things they didn't do. We talked and I told him I know you did, He denies hanging out with girls but did admit to going to parties.

He jumps from being mad at me, saying I have been wanting a separation and I'm pushing him to it, I'm controlling and I don't want him to have friends, then saying he loves me and will do anything I want. Well, he was drinking and said he didn't know I sent his friend a sms, his friend didn't tell him even though they were together when he wrote back to me and they went for coffee this morning, he is.asking what did we talk about, how many messages. I told him that his friend was saying that WH wouldn't cheat, he loves me and that type of thing. That was about 4 hours ago.

I went to take care of babies and an hour ago he calls me in the other room, says "what did you tell my friend?" I said I told you, then he asked again and slapped me across the face. I left the room and told him to get away from me, if he touched me again I would scream and wake up his mom and our kids. He followed me into the bedroom and asked again what I told his friend. Then he said why am I saying anything to his friend and said I'm not allowed to ever talk to his friend again. It seems that he's more pissed offs about me messaging his friend than anything else and says that I'm accusing them when I'm misunderstanding their sms to each other, that they talk in slang that I don't understand.

He hit you. Are you going to leave?

No, I am not going to leave. I have 6 kids, including twin 1 year olds, it would be extremely hard for me to leave and this is the first time in 18 years that something like this happened.

So what are you going to do, Mama?

I don't know what to do. Today he's mad, not speaking to me and I can tell he's pissed off. I can't make him leave, he won't go. I can't change the locks, I really don't know what to do. How can one plan b if they won't leave the house? I'm going to take the kids out today, booked a movie without him. I'm not going to try to talk to him, no point in it, it will only cause a fight and right now I'm livid so I probably wouldn't say anything nice after last night.

When you first came here and were advised to go to Plan B, I think you said that you COULD get him out. You had a Plan B letter written, which you gave him. I believe that you said his mother would be supportive of you. What has changed since then?

You are writing as if his alcoholism is not an issue, and as if you can carry on in this marriage the way things are. You need to read this thread from the beginning, and implement that advice that you were told to implement back in May and June. You said then that the law would be on your side, and that custody and maintenance would be favourable to you. You need to get legal advice on how you can have your H removed from the home, with full custody of the kids going to you, with a maintenance order in place. I suggest that you tell the authorities about your H's drinking, which is illegal where you are, so that you can get help fast.

Everybody who posted to you in the summer knew that you were in a dangerous situation and were advising you to get out of it. You got to the brink of separating from your H and then pulled back, against all the advice and warnings. It seems now that you were in the false recovery that you were warned about and that everybody else could see coming. I'm so sorry about that, Mama, as I have gone through several false recoveries of my own and found them devastating, so I know how you must be feeling. After this FR, you should now follow through using the law to separate from your H, and do not accept him back unless his drinking ceases altogether.

Just reading this thread. Wow. He hit you. While drinking...
due to the fact you caught him covering up.


Are you really only worried that he is "pissed off" at you?
If you will not go to the police,
you must tell your family what he did. You have to tell another adult. Today.

You have to get support. You can not (should not) do this by yourself.

He's refusing to leave. Says I want this fantasy separation and deep down I don't want to be with him, I'm looking for anything to separate. I will tell his mom what happened when she gets home, as well as his siblings.

You need to get law enforcement on this! You are not responding to advice.

I agree, again.

It doesn't matter what he says, or what he thinks. He will say anything to get you to not do what you need to do.

The police will not make him leave our house, it's in his name and even if it wasn't, this is a very patriarchal society, the men have more say than the women, and many think that the wife should just do as she's told, or that this is a personal issue and shouldn't involve outsiders. This is the way things are here. I'm not worried that he's pissed off, I actually am sure that I'm right because of how pissed off he is.

His drinking is obviously a problem, but he says it's not. He won't accept that he has a problem so what can I do? The only thing I can do is try to make him leave the house somehow, then go into a dark plan b until he stops all this destructive behavior. Again, we do not have AA or Alanon here. He is not normally violent, this is the first time he's hit me, which again just makes me more sure about being right on track regarding his lies.

How do you file for a seperation/divorce in this country?

He has basically told you what he wants... you to look the other way.

Can you move out- with the children?
Does his mother help, or is she in need of assistance?

I'm sorry, but your WH is MILES away from even starting recovery. You are going to have DD after DD with him, unless something changes.

He is not willing to admit, nor change.

So what's your plan?

How are you going to get him to move out? Will his mom help you?

I don't know. Right now he is so mad about me sending a sms to his friend, I'm sure his friend is afraid I'll tell his wife, that he can't even look at me. He goes to work and come straight home only to stay alone in another room. The only thing he said today was actually asking if I also sent a message to some guy that was calling him, I said no, I don't even know that guy, he said he's been getting lots of calls today. I wouldn't be surprised if he tells me this weekend that he's leaving and try to blame it all on me for exposing him. I've honestly never seen him so mad at me.

Right now I'm just kinda in limbo. I can't move out, not for a few months anyway because I start a new job on Sunday so have no money to find a place and leaving with 6 kids is not exactly easy. His mom will support me but will say she can't make him leave if he refuses. I can't talk to him because if I go in the same room as him he tells me to get out. Is it even possible to do any plan in the situation??

I love him. He sounds bad but he's not, he really is a great person and I don't want a divorce. He needs help for the alcoholism first and foremost. I just don't know where to start, how to start. Maybe I'm doomed.

What does he say when you ask him that you want him to stop drinking?

When you start this job, will you be able to put money aside?

Will you email the Harleys?

mama, listen to me. do not be misled that "this is the first time he's ever hit me." the first hit is not the last. they do not realise, with horror, what they've done. no. instead, it becomes easier and easier to be physically violent. please, mama, listen. i speak from your shoes. my xH hit me after several years together (in front on an audience no less), and only went on to do it more and more (not just one punch/slap/whatever), and more and more frequently. it turns out this is the SOP for abusers. once they've crossed that line, they only gets WORSE, not better. the fact that you are living in a country that supports the suppression of women only makes it seem more right to him.

i am very concerned because you *sound* like it's ok, it was a horrible accident, everything is going to be all right. *exactly* like an abused woman.

you need to get out. get out NOW. move heaven and earth and all places in between and get the hell out of dodge. please. for you. for your children. because if you think he won't hurt them, i will tell you: you are wrong. even if he doesn't physically strike them, what he does to YOU impacts them just as much. please, please, tell his mother and get OUT. go to your embassy, call whatever family you have, and leave this place.

He says that he can't, well actually that he doesn't want to but that he'll cut down and drink only on the weekends. I can put money aside once I start working. I would love to email them, can someone give me the email address?

I'm not going to leave him for slapping me, we have 18 years invested and its not right for me to just give up because of that. The other issues are way more important than that right now. Yesterday he only asked me again what I said to his friend in the text and if I texted him again, I said no and he said don't lie, I said I didn't, which I didn't. I said in all of this, the only thing you focus on is what I said to your friend?! He didn't go to work yesterday, was depressed and only stayed in bed.

He is more concerned with what you said to his friend then slapping you or his drinking or talking with these OW?

What is your plan?

You don't need money to email the show and here is the address.
Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com.

Yes, it seems that right now he is focusing on that in order to avoid the bigger issues. I tried to email the Harleys but for some reason it was undeliverable. I really don't know what to do right now.

You must have got the address wrong, Mama. Sometime emails to them go into their spam folder, but those do not come back to you as undeliverable. Check the spelling of the address and send it to them again.

mbradio@marriagebuilders.com

Broken,

I have followed your thread since the start and I am so sorry your going through this. If you remember when I posted to you at the beginning I told you that I understand a lot of where you are coming from as far as the country your in and the customs there as I am half Arabic myself.

The answer to your statement above is that there is a lot you CAN do but my question back to you is what are you WILLING to do?

Slapping you is crossing the line big time and should you report it to the authorities. there is a good chance that they will not do anything to him but it will make him think twice before ever abusing you like that again. We live in London and my FWH works for the government and has a criminal records check regularly but when he hit me I did not hesitate for one second to contact the police and he now has a record for it and spent the night in jail. This was a scary step because he could have easily lost his job but a job is replaceable our marriage isn't and he needed to face the consequences of his actions no matter what they were or we could never have a happy marriage.

have you told his mum and relatives about his latest actions??
Have you considered the consequences to you if you carry on living like this?
Have you considered the consequences to your kids behaviour and life if you carry on living like this?

What are you WILLING to do to change things?

A good friend told me this today when I was having a good nag about work issue that keeps happening and I think it's a great quote so ill pass it on.

"For things to change you have to change"

c'mon, mama, you CAN do this!

where are you and what is happening? there are plenty of people here who can help you get a plan together and get rolling on it.

please tell me you reported his abuse.