I am glad that I found this forum, and reading the material and watching the video and the radio segments are very helpful to me. I will start by giving some background to what has been the most challenging year of my life emotionally, where it seems that my wife has taken on a whole new personality to the point that she is like a complete stranger to me at times.

Late Spring, I noticed a change to where she lost interest in sex, or any physical contact with me. She would make excuses, say she was tired, etc. We have had spells where this had happened before but never lasted more than 2 or 3 weeks. But this time was different.

There was some personal factors that were happening: One was that her mother was not doing well in a nursing home ( she later passed away in September) the other was that I was comitted to working alternate weeks out of town, I am self employed and did not have much option but to keep working. Through the end of October I had travelled 21 different weeks for work.

After a couple of Months of zero intimacy, I asked her if it was me ? is there things that we could work on etc. She told me that she was having medical issues with blood loss and was getting tested for cervival cancer etc - which was an additional factor. Outside of the intimacy issue, we would get along ok, but for me, i think it may have led to mood issues.

When I was out of town, on my calls back home, there would be frequent occasions where she would not be home, and would not answer texts, or pick up her cell phone. I would discuss when I would return home and was accused of being suspicious.
I asked her if she was seeing someone else and she told me no - I suggested marriage counselling, and she said no.

After several more weeks of the same, I decided to purchase a GPS tracking device that could be dialled up by cell phone. The next week wjhhen I was working out of town, I discivered that her car was parked at a motel near her work for more than 3 hours - I was devastated. She returned to the motel the following night. ( this was mid October)

I confronted her by telephone about the Motel visits before I returned home. She did not offer any explaination, and told me that she did not have to tell me anything.

After I returned home, she told me that the motel visits did not happen - I showed her the GPS to valilade what I had told her - that was probably a mistake but when you have no secrets from each other for 24 years - its a hard habit to break.
I admit that during the couple of weeks after the affair discovery, we were confrontational with each other and said some things that were regretable.
I was emotionally drained - I called around and made an appointment with a marriage counsellor - she did not turn up - and I used tge appointment as an individual session - same with the next visit.

To my shock - the Monday after Thanksgiving I received a copy of divorce papers in the mail.

At the third counselling session, she turned up for the meeting, and stated that as far as she is concerned, there is no affair, and the marriage is over.
Since then - we have been cordial with each other over the holidays.

As far as the affair goes, I think it is continuing, there is a temporary therapist assistant that she works with ( and supervises) that stays at the motel where the gps said she was. If this is the AP, then she spends most of every work day with him.

I am resolving myself to the fact that this may be over for us - my therapist said that my #1 priority id to "take care of me" which I agree with. If I were to go back in time I would not have taken on the work that I did at a time when she needed me. Sometimes I think that I am still in love with her, other times when her "new" personality comes out, I think I will be glad when its over. We have a court date on Jan 2nd to go over preliminary custody issues.

Any constructive comments would be welcome.

Thanks

To whom have you exposed the affair, Southpaw?

Thanks for the response GloveOil - I told my parents that there was an affair when I called them after the divorce papers were filed. he took care of telling her side of the family ( her brothers and sisters) I am sure that she told them that there is no affair is trying to make me out to be some kind of overly suspicios nut job.

I think that exposure to her friends that she works and her employer with will lead to employment termination. I discussed the exposure idea with an attorney and he told me that If I did something that would affect her employment status, it would not be a good idea.

Thanks !

Welcome to MB?

Who is OM? Is OM married?

Please read.
Exposure 101

Tough question here for you here, Southpaw, but is your preferred outcome (1)to give it your last, best shot to try to save your marriage, or (2) to proceed straight to divorce & get the best possible divorce deal?

If it's (2), then take your lawyer's advice.

If it's (1), then tell your lawyer that while you appreciate his legal advice, he doesn't know squat about busting up affairs & saving marriages and ought to stick to practicing law. If exposing the affair to their workplace would get one or both of them fired, that'd be exactly the outcome you want, in order to help bust up the affair. It won't seem as exciting, for her, to be having an affair with an unemployed bum who's too broke even to afford a dingy motel room; and it won't be as convenient, for him, to be having an affair with a woman who can't afford to pick up her half of the check, ever. Besides, as long as you stick with the truth, you're on firm legal ground. It's still completely legal to state the truth in this country.

P.S. -- I just want to be clear, Southpaw: I'm not pushing you one way or the other (re: whether to divorce or try to save the marriage).

Please know that one of the key requirements for recovering a marriage involves a lot of time spent together for undivided attention, after the affair has been broken up. I'm talking minimum 15-20 hours per week, on average. This is NOT to say that you're in any way responsible for her affair itself, but If you're still going to be averaging 2 weeks of work-related travel per month, I don't think you'll be able to save this. Sorry, I just want you to have a full picture of what you're up against.

Brainhurts - I think the guy is single ( single and 47 year old - might be divorced)

GloveOil - I appreciate your candidness - I am currently trying to decide between #1 and #2 which is the mai reason that I posted - I love my wife, I find the information on MB very useful, but in my case I think the horse may have bolted out of the stable. I think that she may be rushing into the divorce process in order to show commitment to the OM. What the heck - he has known her for all of about 8 months - and does not have to worry about paying any bills yet, or getting a kid to practise.

Southpaw, have you told your kids about their mother's affair?

If your wife is fired it would be because of HER OWN ACTIONS.

It may give you grounds for sole custody of your DD15. Are you going to share your DD with the OM? Does your lawyer think that is a good idea too?

It looks like that is the direction that you are headed.

I told my oldest Son who is visiting from College right now - he told me that his mom had stated to him that I was suspicious about an affair, but there was none - now he is in the middle which is wrong. I told him that I am looking at the exposure to family and friends and he has a problem with it.

Brainhurts - I think the guy is single ( single and 47 year old - might be divorced)

GloveOil - I appreciate your candidness - I am currently trying to decide between #1 and #2 which is the mai reason that I posted - I love my wife, I find the information on MB very useful, but in my case I think the horse may have bolted out of the stable. I think that she may be rushing into the divorce process in order to show commitment to the OM. What the heck - he has known her for all of about 8 months - and does not have to worry about paying any bills yet, or getting a kid to practise.

Have you searched for the OM? What if he's married?

Well, you can let your wife spin this whichever way she wants (as she's obviously been doing already), or you can get your evidence & the truth out there.

ALL of your kids are old enough to know what's going on. They deserve the truth about what's happening in their family & why, because the divorce will affect them a great deal. By abetting your wife's coverup, you're making it easier for her to avoid the consequences of her affair, which makes it easier for her to stay in the affair. Now after the divorce, she's going to make you out to be some overly-suspicious nutjob, as she's already doing vis-a-vis your oldest boy. She'll tell them that the other man is just some nice guy who was a "friend" of hers & who she connected with after your divorce. That way, they'll think he's a great guy.

You need to tell them about the GPS, what you found, how she lied about what she was up to, the truth. Or else someday, those kids are gonna find out anyway, and then they may wonder why BOTH of their parents lied to them. You might not get out of this with your marriage -- as you say, this horse may have slipped the harness. But at least get out of it with the respect of your children, no?

You will never make a good decision if you remain on this path. The wayward mind is very good at jerking the betrayed mind around. One day they are a delight, the next day wayward alien.

She is still inside that alien. The A is what has changed her. If you bust up the A and she goes through withdrawal THEN you will be in a position to decide.

Can you do more snooping to discover who the OM is? I am guessing you dont want a POSOM around your kids at the very least and there are ways to run him off.

Seriously, whatever your decision about your marriage, consider your kid's and tehir prospective stepdad. The figures of how many second marriages lead to child abuse are not great. Particulary when its a scuzzball who seduces a married mother in a motel. Hardly great stepdad material.

I didnt realise your kids were that old. I am sure they will want to help you in keeping this sleaze away from their mother. Tell them the truth. Dont lie to them

Let your DD15 know who OM is so that she can protect HERSELF from this sleaze.

Indiegirl - I agree with your comments, and I have already expressed these feelings to my wife - I asked how much trust she is going to have with a relationship like this, with someone that thinks adultry is ok. I agree that six months from now I do not want him near my kids. My wife is staying silent, and non responsive whe I ask her to level with me, and continues to deny the affair.

As far as snooping goes, I have done all I can for now - I looked at the parking lot where she works -looked at all of the cars parked near hers - compared with the motel parking lot and got a match.

She passworded me out of looking at her facebook page, I looked at her "friends" through my kids account - I found out who the AP is , the temp who works there and stays at the motel 4 days a week.

I think I may send an email to her brothers and sisters and whatever friends I have email addresses for this weekend before the hearing on the 2nd. Then at the hearing, she is expecting me to go along with alternate weekend custody - I am going to object, and insist on joint legal and physical custody.

Thanks

Maybe your daughter doesn't want to live in the de facto care of the guy who's banging her mom. You need to tell your kids what's up. Don't you owe 'em that?

Hire a PI. Go for SOLE CUSTODY. Don't let your DD15 be anywhere near this OM. For her own safety.

Have you done a background check on this guy?

It sounds like you are out of the home. Why? Cant you move back in and snoop properly?

A PI should be able to get you OMs identity and the proof you need for a nuclear exposure. I would wait until you can expose on all sides before sending out emails here and there. I would get one who can get you background info on the OM too.

You would be AMAZED how many smart, successful and beautiful women fall into As with serial cheats, abusers and people who have done jail time.

'Trickle' exposures are not effective. You need the APs to feel it on all sides - workplace (if a WP affair) his family and friends, her family and friends - everyone coming down on them at once and making the A more trouble than it is worth

Why not send him here to get advice? We've spoken to children affected by As before. It would be hard for him to grasp if he doesnt understand the results you would be after.

Most people immediately expect the worst from other people's reactions too. When I exposed people were warm and concerned and most people urged my husband to save the marriage - a complete shock to me!

So the OM works with her? So you should know his name? Have you looked for him on Facebook?

This is like telling someone drunk off their azz that alcohol is bad for you. She knows this. She's enjoying the buzz too much for pesky things like 'thinking'

He's only guessing though, Brainy. Shouldnt take a PI too long to confirm though

If you can find him on Facebook, copy all his contacts into a word document and keep those contacts somewhere safe.

He may wise up and block you. And you will need those contacts later when you have proof and are ready to expose.

Oh I took that he said he knows who the AP is from above?

We can't give you legal advice, Southpaw. If you're traveling 20 or more weeks in a year, my (un-legally-educated) guess would be that sole custody would be a pipe-dream.

But setting that aside: You say you're on the fence about whether to try & save your marriage, but actually, you're not on the fence at all: Please realize that if you're choosing NOT to massively expose the affair, including to employers & children, then by taking that sort of passive approach to the affair, you ARE making a choice to let the affair continue & become entrenched and to let the marriage die.

Whether you realize it or not, you are already making a choice. So just make sure it's the one you intend to make.

On the Facebook issue - She found out that I was accessing her FB friends through my son's account, so she changed her settings so they could only see "mutual" friends - so now I do not have access. However, before she did that, I did find out this guy's name, and what kind of car he drives ( from the parking lot study). I know that she was at the motel for 3 hours on the first night I tracked her. She mentioned in passing that this guy's mother had passed away, I tracked down the obituary and got more info on him. I don't know if the PI is going to add much.

The cell phone texts with the google map locations of the motel are gone - The cell phone company can only give them to an attorney when asked for, so I know I can get them

Glove Oil - this is exactly the kind of clarity I need - I am glad I posted - I think I get what you are telling me.

( apparently I am doing the equivalent of giving the alcoholic more to drink ?)

Thanks

I should also explain that the travel every other week opportunity has ended, so I am doing some smaller home based jobs, and supplimenting my income from the 1 years worth of cash flow saved up.

My advice was not meant to be legal advice.


Southpaw. What can you do to protect your DD15 from the risks of some OM who has no problem sleeping with a married woman and breaking up her family?

Are you willing to take the risk that DD15 will be safe with him? Think about it Southpaw.

Thanks All - I am getting a great deal of comfort in what you are telling me - In the last two months I have been laid off, found out my wife was having an affair, and had divorce papers filed on me. I think you folks here are the first people to listen to me. The only other discussion I have had has been with my wife and with the therapist. Talking with the therapist helped, but she was guiding me in the direction of acceptance, even suggested that I seemed desparate in wanting to save my marriage.

What are your living arrangements?

I am still at home - a large place with ample room to avoid each other when needed.

That's because most marriage counselors have a 84% failure rate of saving marriages, especially from infidelity.

Dr. H has a wonderful program with a 100% success rate when both spouses are onboard.

When is your plan to tell the rest of your children the truth?

You also need to expose on OM's side, parents, siblings at the very least.

Hi southpaw, welcome to Marriage Builders. The others have given you great advice. Your best hope of killing this affair is exposure. By keeping the secret - or by allowing your WW to spin the story to her family - you only protect the affair. Affairs thrive on secrecy so keeping it a secret only fuels the affair.

Your attorney only has the goal of facilitating an amicable divorce. He doesn't give a rip if you save your marriage or if your children have to have this RAT for a step daddy for the next 20 years. Taking advice from an attorney about exposure will get you nowhere. Whether or not you decide to pursue your marriage, you still want to run this rat off. And exposure will do that.

Please go read the exposure thread in my signature and come back and lets talk.

This is because a "therapist" or "marriage counselor" don't have the slightest idea how to save a marriage. Most are not even pro-marriage and will encourage divorce because they can't help your marriage. They don't have a clue. Marriage counselors have a higher personal divorce rate the general population.

Melody - ok thanks - I will go back and read the Exposure101 material

Do you live in a fault or no-fault divorce state? Is adultery taken into account in your state?

Your nuclear exposure should begin TODAY, my friend. Here is the outline of the note to go to everybody in your families; your wife's friends, acquaintances, and clergy; and ESPECIALLY your wife's coworkers:

By now you might know I have been served divorce papers by
WW. It is important to me, and to my children, that you know
the reasons. On (date) and (date) WW spent three hours in
(Name) Motel, being serviced by her new gigolo, (Name), a
coworker. This all took place while I was working at (locale)
trying to provide for my family's needs.

If you have any leverage on WW, I would ask you to contact her
at 111-222-3333 and ask her to return to our marriage. Tell
her that you will never accept (Name) into your circle of
friends.

I plan to fight WW's actions in court, including subpoenaing
both WW and (Name) to explain their actions in open court.

I wish I did not have to provide this sad information, but
having WW spin her dishonest tale of what has happened is
intolerable.

There are on this site specific letters that should be sent to WW's supervisors and company officers. Send those as well.

When hit with the awful blow of infidelity, the BH often reacts by withdrawing and trying to "make nice". The experience here is that an aggressive ATTACK on the affair and the lifestyle supporting it are much more effective.

(And dude, you should WANT, not fear, her being fired.)

I live in PA which is not a no-fault state - however I understand that the adultery is extremely difficult to prove.

Southpaw. Trying to save a marriage with a 24 year history and three kids (at least one still at home) is NOT desperate. It would admirable for you to fight to keep it together.

I think your therapist is wayward herself.

Oh I would definitely hire a PI.

Naw, it's not difficult at all. If you hired a PI to go over there you could have the evidence you need real quick. And if you countersue on the grounds of adultery, your atty will subpeona the records of the OM and your wife so you will GET all the evidence you need. The OM will be dragged into court to sworn testimony under oath about his affair with your wife. But I predict it will never come to that because once you expose and countersue on grounds of adultery, the OM will run like the coward he is.

Your goal is to cause as much trouble as possible in the affair. Expose it wide and far, confront that POS, and countersue on grounds of adultery. You might be able to save your marriage. And you almost certainly will be able to run that POS off!

Southpaw,

Your marriage might survive WW losing her job, it will never survive a continuing affair.

I think research may turn up that OM is 5 years behind in child support, has 30K of credit card debit, and beat his ex-wife. Just the kind of sub-human who makes seducing and ripping off women a profession.

God Bless
Gamma

See if you getmy logic here -
She passworded me out of her FB page at the end of August - I did not pay much attention to it at the time.

In October, when I did the gps tracking, and found out something was going on, she tells me nothing, I am then trying to solve the 1000 piece jig saw puzzle with half the pieces missing, and no picture on the box ! ( don't give me credit for that as I read that somewhere else)

I remember the FB page, so I access her friend list through my son's account. When I rule out relatives and friends she has known for years, I came up with the Temporay worker that she works with - then things make sense. Can I prove it 100% - no

Gamma - do you know a good background check service ?

You need to be a little more proactive here. It should take you no more than 48 hours to find out WHO. This is not a guessing game. Either hire a PI or follow her for a couple of days and find out for sure.

Did you check her email? Her cell phone bill? What have you actually DONE to get evidence of the affair?

You need to find out WHO and get evidence of the affair. THEN you can do a background check.

Melody - Verified without any doubt, she spent time in the Motel.
She takes her cell phone and laptop everywhere, never leaving them unattended.

I hasve the name

Do you have access to her cell phone bill?

What about access to her laptop? Does she bring it in the house? What about her cell phone?

What can you do to get evidence of the affair?

I think you have the right suspect and that a PI will give you solid evidence pretty quickly.

MelodyLane has given you amazing advice about how to use facts and the legal system against this scuzzbucket.

If you read her Exposure thread there is even tips how to sneak around FB to reaccess pages you can't see.

But you said above this was a big guess based on her facebook friends list.

Its still possible, though unlikely she is visiting the motel with someone other than your suspect. Get the evidence!

Since you are in the home, put keyloggers on PCs, get voice recorders in place, go the whole nine yards till you get the evidence you need to protect your family.

SP, you need to get more creative and more proactive. It doesn't take this long to get evidence of an affair along with concrete evidence of the identity of the affair partner.

Based on that plus he is the only person she works with who stays at the motel, plus the parking lot observation where his car was parked next to hers at work, and at night, his car is parked at the motel.

So why aren't you staking out the hotel with a camera? OR hiring a PI to do that?

Do you search her room for evidence? What about getting her phone while she is asleep and putting spyware on it? What about putting a GPS on her car? A VAR under her car seat? There are so many options it is hard to know where to begin.

Southpaw,

Gamma - do you know a good background check service ?

Not really but a professional PI might! Websites like www.veromi.com offer to do this, but I've never tried them and don't know if they can get a credit report.

You can also search misc. leads on the internet of the people listed as related to his mother in the obituary. Many states have searchable lists of convicts too. For example.

https://www6.state.nj.us/DOC_Inmate/inmatefinder?i=I

BTW your WW might not find out about this cats financial troubles until after she has married him, cosigned a loan, and accidentally opens some of his mail.

For your daughters sake you need to fight this OM, your WW is too addicted to OM to protect your daughter from him. Sorry that's the ugly fact.

God Bless
Gamma

I have used intelius and liked it.

Here Trying to Figure out Identity

Now listen here SouthPaw. Don't you watch any spy movies or detective shows ?

Go sit in your car at the hotel and get photos of them coming out together. Melody already suggested that.

Do you have an mp3 player ? My husband busted me by putting one in my van. It played for 12 hrs and recorded my conversations with OM. Put it under her seat. Takes all of 2 seconds. You have 2 seconds don't you ?

You have the gumption to know she's at the motel with this weasel, so you at least have some creative bone in your body. I know you can do this.

Take some sandwiches and hot drinks with you to the stake out. That's what they do on the police shows. Stay there until you get the proof.

Get busy and report back here for help with what to do next.

FindingFreedom - I have done that, the problem is, that after my GPS study, the motel visits stopped and I think the affair went underground. The pattern of unexplained absences, stopped after DD, also I have not travelled for work since my layoff at Halloween.

I did stake out the parking lot of her workplace one day this week, they were the last to leave, they walked out to their cars together, I followed him to the motel, she went on to some errands before heading home.

I did get an account on Intellus, and researched the POSOM email and got email addresses of some of his family members. I also put a draft together of the exposure email, similar to the sample posted yesterday:

Dear Friends and Family,

By now you might know I have been served divorce papers by
XXXXX. It is important to me, that you know and understand
the reasons. On 10/16/2012 XXXXX spent three hours in
the Smethport Motel, in the company of her co-worker, YYYYYYY This all took place while I was working in another part of the country trying to provide for my family's needs.

If you have any leverage on XXXX, I would ask you to contact her
at AAAAAAAAA and ask her to return to our marriage. Tell
her that you will never accept YYYYYYY into your circle of
friends.


I wish I did not have to provide this sad information, but
having Denise spin her dishonest tale of what has happened is
intolerable.



I am working on the draft letter for her employer, and got a couple of email addresses from their corporate web site.

I still have not definetely decided to do this ( see previous post on option #1 vs. #2) - I have been advised to let it go and look after myself - and that any further attempts are just more drain on my energy.

One other question I had was regarding the use of the GPS - My therapist told me that the fact that I used it to gather info could be viewed negatively, and it could be considerded stalking, and maybe against the law. What is you guys take on this ?

Southpaw,
I salute you. You are probably right about the underground. She will play it that your marriage ended, then she met Mr. Wonderful (blech). You are wise to alert people of her dishonest tale, as you stated in your letter.

Have you sent your exposure email yet ?

Whatever you decide, remember that YOU are not responsible for her affair. She chose that.

Listen to what the vets tell you---and act quickly and calmly.

Whatever happens, you will find support here with either marriage recovery or personal recovery.

Stay strong,
FF

You live together as man and wife for heavens sake!!! What woman can claim that she lives with her own stalker?!

If you walk in on her in the shower, would you get done as a peeping tom? Ludicrous!

You're married and OWN marital property, such as the cars, together. If you want to know where your own property is, that's up to you. I have one in my car in case it's ever stolen.

You have every right to know where your own wife is. That's just silly.

It's very silly to ask a therapist for marriage advice. It's downright farcical to ask them for legal advice.

Southpaw, I would change the letter up a bit to make it more convincing.

Dear Friends and Family,

By now you might know I have been served divorce papers by
XXXXX. It is important to me, that you know and understand
the reasons. The reason is to carry on her affair with Joe Blow, a coworker. This affair has been going on for almost a year. I have direct evidence of recent 3 hour tryst on October 16th at the Smethport Motel. This all took place while I was working in another part of the country trying to provide for my family's needs. The affair continues to this day.

If you have any leverage on XXXX, I would ask you to contact her
at AAAAAAAAA and ask her to return to our marriage. Tell
her that you will never accept YYYYYYY into your circle of
friends.

I wish I did not have to provide this sad information, but
having Denise spin her dishonest tale of what has happened is
intolerable


"Letting it go" will not help your mental health, it will tear you down. What will make you feel better is taking direct action against the affair. I don't know who gave you that bad advise to sit there and do nothing, but be assured that is not good advice. The things we are telling you to do are directly from Dr Bill Harley, a clinical psychologist who specializes in infidelity.

You have "let it go" for far too long. Conflict avoidance and enabling has availed you nothing but a worsening situation.

Please find a qualified therapist and stop wasting your time with this fella. He is doing absolutely nothing to help you. He is more worried about hypotheticals than he is about your marriage or your mental health.

Therapists do not know JACK about things like this -- do not ask their advice. Is it stalking to want to know if your marriage is secure?

However, things like recording may be illegal. Look up your local laws.

Thanks for the support - I'l keep you posted. I liked the comments about the GPS, My wife called me a "creeper" for using it - not sure what that means, but don't think it is good.

That's another thing, don't tell your wife about your snooping.

Oh, gimme a break. If you put a GPS on a car that you own, that's not considered stalking, fer cryin' out loud. Southpaw, if I were you, I'd have, uh, "negative thoughts" about paying another cent to a marriage couselor who seems not too much smarter than an average tree-stump. They're supposed to be smart & are paid to think before they open their mouths & speak to clients. This counselor seems to be just making stuff up as he/she goes along, like any clown off the street could do, and stuff like this doesn't even make any sense when ya stop to think about it for a second.

Southpaw, you just gotta take this kind of stuff for what it is & laugh your butt off when you hear stuff like this from her. As if it's not super-creepy that she's been porking some dude that's not her husband in a seedy motel & lying to her kids about it! But she's gonna try & say that you're the creep for trying to put a stop to it?
Like I said before, oh gimme a break, lady.

Thanks GloveOil - I guess that trying to find ways to make me feel bad about myself is part of the WW in-the-fog strategy, to try to make them feel better about themselves?

You'd be guessing right.

And it's not just you she's talking to this way. You can be sure she's making it out to her family & your kids as if you're some jealous wacko. (She's leaving out the part about boning her coworker at the Days Inn, though, I'll bet...)

EXACTLY. It's in the handbook.

If you get a chance, read the first post by my WH, kiss. He was very foggy at the time.

Ps. I was joking about the handbook but waywards pretty much say the same thing.

Fire this therapist. They know nothing about ending affairs and actually saving marriages.

Read this and you'll see how they all say the same things.

Craziest Things to Come out of a Wayward's Piehole
Female Wayward Fog Disassembled and Decoded

Exposure emails and IM's via Facbook went out today, I'll keep you posted.

Dear Friends and Family of the XXX�s,

By now you might know I have been served divorce papers by my wife of 22 years, AAAAA over the holidays. It is important to me, that you know and understand the reasons. The reason is to carry on her affair with BBBBB, a coworker. This affair has been going on for several months. I have direct evidence of recent 3 hour rendezvous on the evening of October 16th at the CCCCC Motel, which is where BBBBBB stays while he works at DDDDDD Nursing Home. This all took place while I was working in another part of the country trying to provide for my family's needs. The affair continues to this day.

If you have any influence with AAAA, I would ask you to contact her at EEEEEE or FFFFFFF@comcast.net and ask her to work with me to re-commit to our marriage. Tell her that you do not approve of her relationship with CCCCCCC

I wish I did not have to provide this sad information, but having DAAAAA spin her dishonest tale of what has happened is intolerable.

I appreciate your support over this very difficult time.

Regards,

Are you working on the workplace exposure letter?

Yes - working on it - I will send out registered receipt requested mail tomorrow.

Great job!!! Keep up the good work. I'd definitely have a VAR on my person at all times if I were you. She is going to be livid and may very well try to accuse you of domestic violence to get you out of the house!

Your therapist is a total idiot. Don't go back there. Read here, get the books and keep posting. If there is a a chance to save this marriage, plan on getting help through the coaching center here.

Be prepared for her anger. Be the cool James Bond. Simply say you are standing up for your marriage and ask if she wants a cookie. Don't engage in the fights she'll try to start.

OK - Hopefully she does not try the PFA scam !

Also, I mentioned that we have been cordial over the holidays ( she even slipped up and called me "sweetie" a couple of times. She is thinking that we can have a custody agreement where I can see my daughter every other weekend, which If I agreed to would facilitate a quick divirce. I informed her, that It should be quite the reverse, she could have her every other weekend, since I am concerned that she is associating herself with people of questionable moral values. Did I push this point too far ? We have a custody orientation hearing on Wednesday.

You are doing great.

Now be cool, calm and collected. Whatever you do, DON'T get angry, call her names, throw things, slam doors (at least none of this whilst in her presence, or in front of your kids).

Be good to yourself.

Do not move out of your home, whatever spews out of her mouth.

We're here rooting for ya. Come back here for support.

If you want to save your marriage, don't discuss divorce with her. If she brings it up, or brings up issues like custody, tell her shed have to talk to your lawyer. You don't discuss divorce, you will discuss how to have a loving, romantic, monogamous marriage.

Thanks guys - I wish I can come here 2 months ago before things got as screwed up as they are. My thinking is she went and filed for divorce anyway, took a hard line and told me I would have nothing - so what do I have to lose ?

You have everything to gain by getting the truth out there.

Even if your marriage doesn't recover, you can hold your head up and know that you fought for what is right and best. Your children will know this too.

You can personally recover, whatever happens to your marriage.

Covering up her crimes doesn't benefit anyone. You are doing great.

I will send out registered receipt requested mail tomorrow.

...and follow up with a "So when can I expect your decision about action?" phone call a few days later.

And dude, if you think she's hot NOW, wait until the felines at her job get this info! MEE-frickin'-YOOOW!

in response to NG's feline photo (not laughing at your situation, SouthP )

Yeh - the SPCA would have touble putting that in the brochure !

Cruelty to Cats!!

Absolutely NOT the wrong thing to say!

She should not assume, if she continues with the divorce, that YOU will not have physical custody with her having visitation. Many of our dads here are the custodial parent with some xW's having no visitation!

But try to stay away from divorce talk right now. Let her know your lawyer talks divorce----You talk marriage!

Update - Exposure emails sent out
Facebook messages sent - I am temporarily blocked, so need to wait before sending out more.

Workplace letters sent out, one to CEO and one to Supervisor

Got todays Divorce Orientation hearing out of the way, I stated that as far as I was concerned, I want to work on the marriage, and If divorce is inevitable, I want primary residential custody of my daughter.

WW was very quiet after the first round of exposure emails.
I did not hear back from any of the recipients.

WW was very quiet after the first round of exposure emails.

Ahh, yes, but putting her employment status in play threatens her with 1)loss of income, and 2)loss of access to temporary boy-toy.

Expect a howling she-devil. Do not get angry. Keep your audio-recorder "on". Conduct all discussions with her in front of witnesses. You want no involvement by the lobotomized cretins wearing badges, my friend. One "tear" from her, and you'll be the Boston Strangler in their eyes.

Well done

Good job!!

I have a real problem with the workplace exposure - My income, being a self employed consultant is feast or famine - right now its starvation. Her six figure income might disappear, but she could be working again within a few weeks.
Her current workplace leaves a bad taste in my mouth - as it enabled the affair, I wonder who knew ?

I guess that's whay we have an emergency fund, which will get seriously dented.

I know that its scary, but you can replace a job, you can't replace a marriage. She would have had to leave anyway if there is to be any hope of saving your marriage. At the very least, this will give her to motive to find another job AND eyes will be watching them at work.

Southpaw,

WW was very quiet after the first round of exposure emails.
I did not hear back from any of the recipients.

She may hear back from some of the recipients, of those some will be supportive some condemnatory, some disappointed.

Of those who don't reply however, your WW will forever wonder about how she now looks in their eyes, and how many people they told.

WW will never be able to bring OM into polite company, nor will they ever gain legitimacy as a couple with cute stories about finding happiness together. Her accompanying OM will make her feel like a scarlet woman and she will hear whispers everywhere. You have replaced the excitement of the affair with the truth of their dishonesty and shabbiness.

God Bless
Gamma

I guess we'll just keep following Winston Churchill's advice in you signature.

One thing I forgot to mention is that she stated that she is going to move out and look for a place to live.

Also, I think her lawyer told her that she might be on shaky ground as far as the custody goes. So I think he is going to press her for the "indingities" part of the divorce complaint to come up with some dirt.

Refresh my memory, do you live in a state that takes adultery into account? Can you countersue on grounds of adultery?

Mel, He's in PA. It may be difficult to prove but that doesn't matter.

Looked around and found this. It doesn't appear to be any different or more difficult than any other state.

Adultery

Adultery is sexual intercourse between a married person and someone other than the spouse. In Pennsylvania, neither cunnilingus nor fellatio, which the law defines as sodomy, is a ground for divorce and generally neither is considered adultery. The sexual intercourse must involve some penetration of the female organ by the male organ, but a "completion" of the sexual intercourse is not required. ;

How to Prove Adultery

There probably is no such thing as a pleasant adultery case; because names, dates, places, paramours, and the like have to be brought out in the open. If your spouse no longer cares about what you know and is open about the affair, you're lucky. You can then catch your spouse flagrante delicto, which means you have your spouse in the flagrant wrong and may not have to worry about hiring detectives. However, you may still need a detective to prove your case in court. There is still a need for a corroborative witness, such as a mutual friend or neighbor, who has no stake in the matter except telling the court what he (she) witnessed.

Most adultery cases are proven by circumstantial evidence, which means that you have to establish that your spouse had the disposition and opportunity to commit adultery.

Public displays of affection, such as hand-holding, kissing, and hugging, between the guilty spouse and the paramour are generally sufficient evidence to indicate an adulterous disposition. Opportunity may be proven by showing that your spouse was seen entering the paramour's apartment at 11 P.M. and not coming out until 8 A.M. the following morning and that they were alone. If you can only prove disposition but not opportunity, the courts may not allow your divorce because the court may reason that it is just mere speculation. The same is true if you only show that there was opportunity, but cannot prove disposition. When you think about it, this seems to make sense.


Naming the Co-Respondent

Sometimes known as a paramour, the co-respondent is the person whom you charge as having committed adultery with your spouse. The co-respondent has the right to hire a lawyer and file an answer to your complaint. Naming co-respondents can get sticky, particularly if your facts are incorrect. You might be damaging the reputation of an innocent person.

The Adulterers


Adulterers are not equal under the blanket of the law. In Pennsylvania, adultery may impact custody if the adultery is proven to have harmed or impaired the children. Adultery does not necessarily affect alimony awards in Pennsylvania. It will, however, be a factor for consideration in awarding alimony.

http://www.divorcelawinfo.com/PA/padivexpln.htm

ok, thanks. I remember now. It is not hard to prove unless you have a lazy lawyer. A good lawyer can subpeona their records and easily prove the affair.

Saying it is "difficult to prove" is the typical lawyers mantra whose goal is to facilitate an easy, amicable divorce. Everything is "difficult" when that is your only goal. Exposure is "difficult"; Plan B is "difficult," everything except rolling over and playing dead is difficult when your goal is an easy divorce.

Hey, you know me, I agree 100%, which is why I posted what I did. He's taking way to much the word of his atty, and doing very little research of his own.

Southpaw, ever considered going to that motel and knocking on this POS's door and having a little man to wuss chat with him?

You might want to send letters to OM's temp agency as well.
Might as well turn up the heat where ever you can.

I should point out that I have not yet retained a lawyer on this - I have spoken to a couple of candidates. I know I can coutersue, and get cell phone records, texts sent to each other etc as part of the discovery process if need be.

Yesterday, I represented myself, I took the track recommended on this forum to emphasize marriage. When asked what my preferred outcome for custody was, I reponded that I want both of us to have 100%. I made it known that divorce for me would be a very last resort, and I am not going along with the "quick" consentual divorce at this point.

I amgoing to wait a few days until the other stuff we are working on filters through before retaining a lawyer.

Sorry Southpaw...your WW seems better prepared and more serious than you.

Way to go Southpaw! That 100% comment was right on target!!!

Not sure about the law in PA, but in my state a child at the age of 14 can decide with which parent they want to reside.

Update on this is as folling:
Divorce proceeding - next step is custody mediation and a status conference on Feb 13th

WW is still adamant that there is and was no affair - says that the motel visit did not happen - and she will let everyone know the truth about where she was once the divorce is completed ( FOG )

All of the disclsure steps are done,Her friends, her employer the OM's siblings and parents. only two reponses I got were from friends of mine ( husbands of friends of hers) stating that they are shocked/disappointed etc.

She told me the disclosure letters thatbwere sent out will prove to people just how much of a crackpot I really am ? and will validate her story. She said that no one that I sent the exposure letters to have contacted her to offer any support because they will be supporting her decision.

Apart from this, things are pretty normal - working with our son on college applications, went out for Dinner on Friday, went to Church yesterday. Installed a bathroom sink on Saturday. Then last night she made the "surprise" satement that she cannot believe how much I have been verbally abusing her in the last two months ( ???? MORE FOG ?????)

I hope to retain a lawyer some time this week. Not looking forward to spending more precious $$$

In defense of your daughter, however, it will be money well spent. You know how much of a scumbag this OM is. Who knows to what extent that might reach?

Thanks Karma - hopefully there are going to be brighter days ahead where I can get more than a couple of hours of sleep.

I'm doing a decent plan A job of being affable - it's tough to listen to comments like how "mean and nasty" I've become in her words.

I am surprised at the lack of respone to the exposure, I did get two emails from friends of mine offering support etc, but don't know how many people have contacted WW. She said she knows about the workplace exposure email and letter and says she "does not appreciate my attempt to get her fired". I did not respond, she told me that my exposure messages make me look bad ? and that people will think I am crazy. I guess that is the counter-intuitive part of it. She still denies that there is any affair - but I did not hear about the exposure letters that I sent out to the POSOM's brothers and Father - maybe he did not tell her about them ? I suspect when he goes to his hometown this weekend, he will get an earfull.

I am continuing to plan A, be nice, cordial etc - we are going to a swim meet to watch our kids this afternoon - about a 2 hour car ride.

I am working through the SAA book that I received this week I can see some similarities between us and the Jon and Sue story in the book.

I did get some good news this week, One of my bids for some new work is going to be successful ! I might have enough work to see me through the rest of the year if it works out. This will really help out in my custody case.

Lack of response to exposure is normal. I think I heard back from 1 person. It's sad that so many people would rather sit back and "not get involved". You did your part though and have others informed.

It is also normal for a wayward to call a BS "crazy". It's their way of gaslighhting you and making you doubt yourself. Don't pay it no mind and stay strong. It's not your exposure that is hurting her or her job, its her affair.

Thanks RQ - I am hoping that they cut him loose soon - with his hometown being 3 hours away and him being a "traveller" for work - I would think the affair would be stressed.

If you don't hear anything from the employer soon, I would follow up with a phone call. Sometimes, they think they can sweep things under the rug. Make sure they don't.

Divorce is war.
Get an att

Get an attorney before she robs you of everything

Hell's bells! Get an attorney and rob HER of everything!

I have the lawyer situation under control, the disposition of assets is being worked on - without getting in to detailsshe is going to be walking away with quite a sum of money.

Then, If she has custody, I will pay child support for my DD(14), and my DS(18) while he is still in HS. Its like , you get cheated on, she files for divorce, then runs you over with a truck, then backs the truck over you.

I will be discussing the pro's and con's of counter-suing for adultry ( I hate to escalate things as it goes against the plan A principles) T do this, I would need to get cell phone records including details of texts between them etc, which would require a court order from the Judge. The lawyers I have talked to have said that this would create a lot of resentment and airing out of dirty laundry and unlikely to affect the outcome. They said, get the divorce, divide the assets 50/50, then we still have somewhat of a cordial relationship left when dealing with our kids issues with College etc.

Anyway, she has been pre-approved for a mortgage and is looking at houses - so when that happens, plan B. I think the way things are going, the Divorce will be done by late April/Early May.

Its like , you get cheated on, she files for divorce, then runs you over with a truck, then backs the truck over you...I hate to escalate things as it goes against the plan A principles

Oh, well, then....Give her EVERYTHING! That should put a huge LB$ deposit in her account! BTW: Don't forget your self-respect in that transfer, dude.

Don't you understand? This is WAR! Your job is to win. Your lawyer's job is to not do any work, just collect his fee.

Counter-file for adultery. Threaten public release of her sins, and see how her demands might change. You are surrendering to a dictatress without so much as an "Excuse me...."

No it isn't. Plan A REQUIRES you to call a spade a spade. Plan A requires you to stand up for yourself.

She will HATE being divorced for adultery. That is the point. If didn't want that to happen she shouldn't have done it. If she doesn't want it TO happen then she better get to work undoing her adultery.

That is a quintessential part of Plan A. Have you read the carrot and stick of Plan A?

"Please make our job much easier for us"

I'm so glad her A is working out so well for her!

How can she finance this? Why is she setting the timescale for Plan B?

It most certainly does not go against Plan A principles. You should Plan A your wife and fight fiercely against the affair. Cooperating with a divorce scheme is to facilitate the affair.


It would create alot of "resentment" for lazy lawyers whose only goal is to get you divorced in the easiest way possible. Please don't inconvenience them and do anything to try to slow down the divorce and save your marriage. They don't like to be bothered with the extra work. They don't give a crap about you and they don't give a crap about your marriage.

You would just make it easier on everyone if you just rolled over and let your wife replace you with EASE.

I did retain a lawyer on this, I had to go a ways out to get someone on board who is going to file a counter-suit. Interestingly the lawyer is a former marriage counselor who is interested in the MB concepts. I told her about the exposure letters that I have sent, and she is not concerned about them.
The counter suit will be filed this coming week. I hope it does not happen on her birthday - if it does too bad - since our wedding anniversary, my birthday, Thanksgiving, Xmas and New Years all have been a bust !

WW is still denying the affair - says the motel visits did not happen etc - she has devoted most of this weekend to looking at real estate for sale - she even took our daughter along with her.

She told me that her employer "investigated" my letter sent to them and that no action was going to be taken - I have tracked down the temp agency that POSOM works with and sent some certified mail letters to their corporate office - company owner, head of contract employees and COO. I also did some more FB exposure messages before I got shut down again - is there a way to avoid this ?


Anyway - I wanted to post an update - I appreciate the input from you veterans on here - I hop we can get a fog breaking event soon - as I am getting worn down.

Regards

Ignore what she says, as it could be lies. But I'm glad you went wider on the exposure. It will help to get to the top people in the company. Follow up with a call and check with your lawyer if you have any recourse with the company if they fail to act.

How is your plan A going?

The only way I know to avoid the shutdown on Facebook is to space the messages 3 minutes apart. But some have gotten temporarily shut down even then.

RQ - The 3 minute delay worked fine, POSOM has a lot of contacts - after about 90 messages were sent, I am now blocked out of FB for 30 days - I think exposing to over 2/3 of his contacts should be enough for now.

I get the following message when logging in to FB

"You've been temporarily blocked from using certain features because you violated Facebook's Terms. Please review the Community Standards to learn what's okay to share on Facebook.

This block will be lifted in 30 days, but if you continue to violate Facebook's Terms, your account could be permanently disabled."

There must be some rule based thing that kicks you out when you send too many messages to people that are not your contacts.

Southpaw,

I think exposing to over 2/3 of his contacts should be enough for now.

Yep great work, you've also established that you will strike back, and you hopefully put some fear into the OM to keep him well behaved if he is ever around your children.

God Bless
Gamma

Odds are good that conversation will take place between those who know and those who don't. This is one time when gossip will come in handy.

The latest FB posts together with the certified mail sent to the company he contracts for is definitely going to put some heat on . on FB there is HS and College plus all of the health care people he has worked with. I am sure he is going to get some pressure.

Southpaw,

And there will be no disguising the nature of their relationship, no cute stories about OM saving WW from a loveless marriage, and their being soul mates from eternity. So sorry to trample on their flower bed.

God Bless
Gamma

As long as you prioritized his FB contacts with his family first, you should be fine.

Should be ok . I mailed letters out to his family weeks ago. I did not get any feedback from we so I think he did not tell her.

Just a point of interest today - WW *LOST* her cell phone. She is accusing me of taking it, her day has not been good. She is like a drug addict who is not getting a heroin fix and is acting mean. Normally she is so happy - I can't stand it.

Normally she takes her cell phone and her computer and puts them in a large beach bag - and sleeps with the bag by the side of her bed. If the cell phone rings or beeps that she has a text - she will then take her cell phone to the bathroom.

I have had the openness and honesty/transparancy discussion with her her in the last couple of days and told her to read pages 40-41 of the SAA book which dioscusses her need for secrecy.. She told me that she "is not reading my darned book"

Anyway - I managed to keep calm despite todays mood swing - although generally I am having a tough time with plan A I slipped up and got in a mood a couple of times - I'm only human, but I'm getting better at it.

I think her hard drive should accidentally crash as well. Perhaps a small cold will do....

Poor poor wayward....

Moods are ok, just be careful not to o any lovebusting.

Well - -If I had access - maybe i could take the hard drive out and put it in the dishwasher for a cycle - but for the past couple on Months I cant get to it.

Might be time to jump off the bed for fun.

...take the hard drive out and put it in the dishwasher for a cycle...

It's easier to rest a powerful pulsing electromagnet on it for a few hours!

I think a can of coke knocked off the bedside table into the bag would work quite well, too.

I know it has been a few days since I posted, but I need to vent and get input on how to handle the next few days. We had probably the best stretch of days since D day ( Oct 16th) which ended on Wednesday with what I call the �garage� incident. Last weekend we took my DS 18 to a college visit for the weekend, with my DD and met up with my DS who is in college and is 21 this week. We stayed in a hotel for 2 nights and had a good weekend . I have been working my plan A and trying to ,maximize my �domestic support� by doing laundry and always turning the dishwasher around when I can plus some other stuff. We had a set back a couple of days ago when WW�s best friend going all the way back to High School called, and I answered, she was nowhere to be found � I eventually found her � coming out of the garage with her cell phone, she knew she was busted. After she finished her call with her friend she was in a bad mood, asked some divorce questions ( get me copies of statements etc) to which I replied �I am not going to have any divorce discussion with you, only marriage recovery, which would start with a no contact letter.� She said she did not know what that was but there is no chance for recovery as far as she is concerned. I

I know it has been a few days since I posted, but I need to vent and get input on how to handle the next few days. We had probably the best stretch of days since D day ( Oct 16th) which ended on Wednesday with what I call the �garage� incident. Last weekend we took my DS 18 to a college visit for the weekend, with my DD and met up with my DS who is in college and is 21 this week. We stayed in a hotel for 2 nights and had a good weekend . I have been working my plan A and trying to ,maximize my �domestic support� by doing laundry and always turning the dishwasher around when I can plus some other stuff. We had a set back a couple of days ago when WW�s best friend going all the way back to High School called, and I answered, she was nowhere to be found � I eventually found her � coming out of the garage with her cell phone, she knew she was busted. After she finished her call with her friend she was in a bad mood, asked some divorce questions ( get me copies of statements etc) to which I replied �I am not going to have any divorce discussion with you, only marriage recovery, which would start with a no contact letter.� She said she did not know what that was but there is no chance for recovery as far as she is concerned. I explained that she needs to read the book that I gave her (SAA), and she stated she had no intention and as far as she is concerned our marriage is over.
As far as POSOM goes, his car has not been in the work parking lot this week, I did drive by�s Monday, Tuesday and yesterday. Best case scenario is that the exposure resulted in him being terminated or transferred to another location. We�ll find out eventually, maybe he is just making his exit moves to easier prey, due to the exposure.
One of my sisters called me from Scotland yesterday, each of my sisters call me every few days to check upon me. She told me that she had called a couple of days ago and WW picked up. Apparently the two of them had a dialogue where WW presented my sister with the crazy jealous stalking husband theory as the reason for the divorce with her affair being a figment of my imagination. My sister gave me a heads up on that, apparently she is spreading this tale as a response to my exposure letters, FB messages and emails. I feel isolated and kind of defenseless here, as I run my consulting business from home therefore do not have a network of work friends that I can talk to, although I have been talking to a former boss who is in North Carolina which is helpful. My immediate family, my mom, dad and two sisters and their families are all in Scotland. WW has immediate family close by and work friends that are giving her a lot of support.
Next week is going to be a tough one, there is a �children in the middle� training class on Monday, WW will get the counter-suit (adultery) papers served on Tuesday, and we have a divorce status hearing on Wednesday. This will be the first time that I have legal counsel representing me.

Anyway, I apologize for the long update, if all else fails, I will have learned some MB principles, ands thanks to this forum, can convince myself that I am not as crazy as WW is telling everyone. I appreciate any supportive comments, advice, or input from the group.

Well - really messed it up again! I put a VAR in her car under the drivers seat - I wanted to find out where she stands with POSOM since it does not look like he is working with her anymore - she found it the same day I put it in - gave it to her lawyer. It was in our bedroom for a few hours before I put it in the car - she said my voice is on there telling her that she "looks pretty hot today". Anyway - one more thing that will be used against me in the custody fight.

For Valentines Day, based on the plan A recommendation to get more affectionate - I am stepping it up a notch - normally it is a card, chocolates and dinner out - This year, it is a card, chocolates, heart shaped diamond earings, dozen roses shipped to her work, and a hand written poem :
" I grieve for the bond that we once had
I feel abandoned � and really sad
The times we�ve had have really been special
For your accomplishments � you deserve a medal
One thing that you should know that still is true
My heart is still reserved for you"

I'm thinking about plan B - and the difficulty with grown kids - as the armour plated love bank is not letting anything in - and I am getting worn down.

I watched "Fireproof" which is on line on Netflix - very inspirational movie - and example of a perfectly executed plan A.

Uh oh on the VAR. Probably would have been better to put under the passenger seat. I like your plan A. If my WH ever makes it to these boards he should read this post!

Have heard a lot of good things about Fireproof. I'll have to watch it soon.

Plan B whenever you can't plan A anymore. It's totally up to you. Hope your plan A works though!

Thanks B - If you get a chance, watch the movie. It is more of a "carrot" approach, than the "carrot and stick" though.

I'm continuing on with Plan A, WW is continually trying to "bait" me in to arguments. I know that the OP is not working with her anymore, but they are still in contact. This morning I asked WW if she would consider looking at a NC letter and working on our marriage, the response was " considering how abusive you are to me, there is no way in H**LL we are going to be together, and the divorce can't happen soon enough"

Any advice ? I have been nothing but respectful, apart from the few days following DD when I was a wreck.

She's a wreck. She just is not aware she's a wreck.

WW's "abusive" comment makes me mad. It's a common posture taken when a WW has thrown her affections at another man.

Continue being respectful. But, do not roll over and admit to her claims of abuse. I call bull-crap.

Good for you when it comes to not taking her bait. She needs you to be the ogre . Deny her.

Thanks Pepp, Plan A for me is not easy, I get a lot of confort from reading your Plan A advice here http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=991329&Searchpage=3&Main=95618&Words=%22Who+the+heck+ARE+you%3F%22&Search=true#Post991329

We have an appointment to see a "court ordered" counsellor on Friday. I called around and found a counsellor who is on board with MB, I am sure she is going to do the "its finished" routine that she did with the last councilling session from a couple of months ago.

Prepare a plan. Do not go into this without a plan.


I'm sure you are correct. This is her non-plan.

You must rehearse your responses to this ....

I can give you ideas, but my ideas are really just a catalyst to get you started on your own personalized responses...

Examples:

"I remember the words we spoke on our wedding day. (quote the vows you said). I take those vows seriously. We find our marriage sputtering at "for worse". I took a vow to endure "for worse". I am willing to do whatever it takes to make this marriage make it through "for worse" and cherish the "for better". My integrity demands I make this effort."


Or .........

"I am not willing to give up on this marriage just because things are currently difficult. I know that I have not done everything within my power to fix this. I am willing to do that. I am willing to see this through until I know for a fact that I have exhausted every available resource to fix this marriage."

Rehearse and plan. Be the boy scout. Prepared.

Thanks ! I will definetely use the vows "for worse" line.

When WW spins off into "He's so abusive, blah blah blah." .... may I suggest you go all Marriage Builders on her.

"I have come to realize that I have failed to meet some of your needs in the manner you wish them to be met. I am willing to listen to your needs right now and listen to the therapist/counselor's suggestions on ways I can work to make sure your needs are met."

"I know that it is impossible for me to meet some of your needs when you are having an affair and you are allowing the other man to meet those needs."

"I am willing to do whatever it takes to make our marriage mutually enjoyable. I want to be here for you in good times and in bad. I want to grow old with you."

"I have been inspired by Proverbs 5:18. Let your fountain be blessed, And rejoice in the wife of your youth."

Thanks! These will be good points to make.
I think she sees this session as just another obstacle in her quest for a speedy divorce.

She's just a typical WW. Running away as fast as she can.

I she ever comes out of the FOG and commits to MB, I will show her the forum on here and she can see a self reflection of how she was(is). That would be too good to be true, maybe the OM will migrate to a new partner soon and burst her bubble.

Quick update here. Last night, WW acknowledged that POSOM has now moved on, which I suspect was about 3 weeks ago. Since he was a temporary employee, he is assigned to work somewhere else, and is no doubt working on destroying someone elses marriage.
She is still pressing on with the divorce, and said that as far as she is concerned, we have not had a good marrage in the last 15 years, and she does not like me, in addition to a rant about the exposure and how she thinks it hurt me more than her etc etc. All this cafter I cooked dinner and had it ready for her when she got home from working late. I also left a nice note for her in her car yesterday saying that I believed in her which I think she liked.
She behaved as predicted at the therapy session last week, she totally sabotaged the session by saying "it is over" etc. The therapist liked my MB plan, but said clearly you are not to a point where you can both agree to start working on it.

I am continuing to work the plan A carrot and stick plan,and continue to improve, although with her controlling the divorce process, it does not seem as effective - If I was to go back and do anything differently, it would have been to file for divorce first.

Whave a busy few days coming up, where our kids are in the HS play the next 3 nights and have a regional swim meet on Saturday, so we will be spending a lot of time together.

I am continuing to reinforce the recovery plan in the SAA book as being the path to restore integrity, and she is digging her heels in on the "its finished" approach, although clearly I am thinking that she is questioning he own judgement? - comments ?

She probably is. Keep up your LB deposits as per plan A. Don't talk about the divorce at all. Plan A like a rockstar!

Thanks B - I could use some coaching - plan A is totally counter-intuitive for me and is not easy. In her rant, she went out of her way to be nasty. She told me that I am isolated, that she feels people will be avoiding me because of the exposure, she talked to my family in Scotland and says they agree with her divorce filing ( total nonsense) with some Fyou's thrown in along the way. Her behaviour might be consistent with the "symptoms of withdrawal" section in the SAA book, wher Dr Harley says "anger towards a betrayed spouse are ovwerwhelming".

Since POSOM has been out of the picture for 3 weeks, this is a possible scenario, although they may still be in contact.

My response to her was, something like " You know I am concerned for your health, the fact that you feel that you need to make these kind of statements says a lot more about you than about me" also " I think you should get somehelp - the fact that you have been taking St Johns Wart pills, indicates that you yourself think you have some issues, why not get some help from a professional?" Probably not plan A'ish things to say, but I think appropriate, considering how nasty she portrayed me at the therapy session a few days earlier. Anyway, we still sleep in the same bed - woke up the next day like the conversation never happened.

As far as the divorce process is concerned, I have rejected the "mutual consent" part of the process, so that means that absent any other cause in the complaint, she will have to wait 24 Months total from filing for the divorce. I think her intention then will be to go for a separation agreement with division of assets, which will enable her to leave and buy a house.

One other issue that I have is I think her sister is doing some more meddling. We had a good valentines day dinner ( she asked me) had some good conversation etc., the next day she went to visit her sister ( who left her husband several years ago for a wayward relationhip), and came back hostile. My previous contact with her sister was when she told WW that the furniture and appliances from my deceased MIL's house are in storage for when she leaves me - nice !

Anyway WW is still adamant on the divorce - non repentant about the affair, and says she can't wait to get away from me so that she can "do what she wants"

One other thing I forgot to mention, as a result of the last status conference, I now have a court order telling me to discontinue the exposure communications. The exposure was completed a long time ago, but has anyone else gotten a court order like this ?

Mr BS will cease and desist from sending letters or otherwise communicating with Mrs WW employers, co-workers, friends, family and acquantances regarding what he alleges is her immoral conduct with a co-worker.

Did you get everyone important? By this point the exposure is likely only spread by word of mouth...

POSOM is gone - I like to think that the exposure helped ! but he has moved on to another job, and WW says the A is over. Of course at this point there is no commitment to recover, NC or any of the steps outlined in the SAA book. But the exposure was extensive and as complete as it could be.

Sounds like you got her work, too. When you get to court, be sure to have an explanation ready -- doubtless they will use this order against you and say that you're crazy.

Something, of course, along the lines of defending your marriage and exposure being the quickest way to do so.

The most important thing - - He no longer works there, whether that was his choice, or he was asked to move as a result of the affair I may never know. Whether the affair died a natural death (* 8 months +/-) or whether the exposure put pressure on it, or whether they are still in contact ? I would like to know, but with WW's current attitude, I am not going to find out any time soon.

I know I am a ways away from this, but if the situation comes up at some point that WW wants to repair our marriage, I have drafted some EP's - I would appreciate any comments:

Marriage Healing Plan
1. No Contact Letter to Affair Partner must witness it being written and mailed.
2. Full disclosure of all affairs had since marriage � confirmed by Polygraph testing
3. After above � affairs never mentioned again.
4. Cell phone number changed
5. New email address
6. Commit to �Rule of Protection� POJA on all decisions, no DJ�s, AO�s
7. Commit to �Rule of Care� Identify top emotional needs
8. Commit to �Rule of Time� 20+ hours per week of UA time spent on above needs including SF, RC, Affection, Conversation.
9. Commit to Rule of Honesty� we will have access to each other cell phones, email, computers with passwords for Social Networking and banking.
10. No more opposite sex friendships, No more inappropriate flirting with opposite sex
11. Review the plan monthly and make corrections as needed.
12. Use the MB forum as needed for added help and coaching.

These are good.

What were the conditions that allowed her affair? These must be changed.
Recovery After an Affair

BH - Good question,She developed a friendship with a male co-worker, she has a part time job after work on an as needed basis which was ideal "cover". I should add that the part time job must go - and also consider that she change her regular full time job, since they were not very responsive to the exposure.

Exactly.

How did she communicate with him? Phone? Email? Facebook?

I think it was texting, and maybe through email and/or Facebook, she has kept her cell phone and computer close to her side since d-day.

The new lawyer that I am working with seems very good (tough) I think there might be a possibility of WW reconsidering recovery once she knows what she is dealing with, but we'll see if and when that happens.

I say 0 social media. Since they used that to communicate.

Good point - she spends hours per day on Facebook - to the exclusion of a lot of other things.

Well she didn't like being exposed did she?
I was threatened by my ex wife that her boyfriend would "sue" me for exposing his adultery but it was only an empty threat.

We (us betrayed spouses) all go through a list of conditions as we hope.
As someone that has been there my advice is to focus on the immediate issues and not even think about recovery.
Immediate issues: plan A until divorce. Then what is your plan? To continue plan A or enter into plan B?
Immediate issue 2: remember that divorce is war

my wife would post that she wanted "freedom" on her Facebook page during divorce. On the advice of MB posters I would repeat one sentence to her every time she wanted to talk about our "relationship" or "children parenting" "I am willing to work with you to create a loving healthy marriage where both of our needs are met" and if she responded with blah blah blah I would talk about coffee or juice or John Wayne movies and walk away

If I were Southpaw, that would bring a huge grin to my face. Talk about closing the barn door after the horse has bolted.

Tad bit late for trying to mitigate the exposure damage at this point.

This is actually amusing.

Hell, kind of makes me wonder what the judge was thinking. Just how does a court order unring this bell?

JK/Viper,
The Court Order actually increases the reach of the exposure - I should be thankful!
I think they are trying to play it that the exposure was some kind of spiteful jelous revenge action, rather than part of a strategy. In any case, as far as I can tell, they do not work together any more although they are probably still in contact.

Just focus on plan A. You are doing a good job

x 2

X3

Thanks ! Custody hearing was this morning, got that out of the way at least I wont have to worry about it going forward.

What was the outcome of the custody hearing?

Aternate Friday Evening through Monday AM, plus Every Wednesday overnight (Daughters call o/n or not)during school year.

During Summer Alternate weeks, with a Wed o/n for the other parent.

I think it will work ok

Kids hate this.
When can the 15 year old decide her own visitation? (other than Wed nights)

She can decide to stay overnight on the Wednesday or go to her Moms house, plus if she has a social event, party movie night etc the plans can be modified. It was the best compromise I could get. I would have preferred Alternate weeks Fri-Fri year round, but could not get an agreement.

Watch and pray that your wife's loose morals don't give your teenage daughter opportunity to make stupid decisions.

A friend of mine got divorced. His twin daughters behaved good. Divorce at the age of 16 and they both fell into boyfriends, sex and pregnancy.

Prior to divorce try attended church 2 times a week.

W had a "no overnight visitors " clause put in the agreement plus WW is an excellent mother, however, point taken, I will be on my guard and will file motions to have the agreement changed at the first sign of trouble.

That's funny. My wife also stressed to me the importance of not allowing any overnight girlfriends after we divorce.
I think that's the morality that's imprisoned in their mind talking and they don't realize that THEY are the wayward ones

Funny! The clause protects the possibility of POSOM staying over while my daughter is there. I am more comfortable with it in there.

It wont make a difference.
10,000 year old adultery laws make it illegal to have affairs; if your wife doesnt care about following Moral Law then why would she care about a piece of paper?

Good Point, anyway since I could not get 100% custody or even 50%, I did the best that I could. It was a sad day for me, as it hit home that my family is breaking up even although I am doing everything I can to prevent it.

I have been reading up on several years of mortarman posts, It is impressive that both times he went from plan A, and his WW left and he went to plan B, she came back to work on their marriage.

I am thinking that my WW is headed for a separation after the division of assets takes place probably in the next Month or so. I ave basically said no to the "mutual Consent" divorce, so in PA that means a 24 month separation from the filing date before the divorce can be granted.

In preparation for this, I will be preparing for plan B, I have a good preliminary list of EP's, and will work on a plan B letter.

I am not having any expectations ! if it does not work, I am more than willing to move on with my life.

Due to the sheer volume of mortarman's many thread and posts, there is a good overall summary thread that he put together at:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2192374&page=1

R U OK?

Thanks for asking - I am still hanging in there on plan A. I feel that I have improved, but WW is still foggier than ever. Yesterday she told me that she wants to put a down payment on a house. If she moves, then I will either continue plan A for a while or switch to plan B while the divorce is in process. It is now 10 months since we ceased being intimate with each other and I am starting to wonder if WW's relationship with the POSOM will ever end. I think that once she moves out and he has to meet "all" of her needs in a plan B situation will test them. In any case, in working plan A I have improved and am a better person.

I don't know whether I should just let the divorce go through, or switch to the "mutual consent" method. WW is clearly not the same person that I married, and I am doubting as to whether she is ever going to change back to someone that is even likeable never mind loveable ? WW spends most of her time at night texting and on Facebook to the exclusion of anybody else which irritates the living heck out of me. I suspect that the reason is that now they don't work with each other any more, they make up it by communicating electronically.

I started taking AD's a month ago (Bupropion) and I think they are helping me deal with things.


Anyway - thanks for checking up on me, I have been following several other threads and I am amazed at how similar the WW's are behaving, and all reading from the same script !

I am amazed at how similar the WW's are behaving, and all reading from the same script!

...and, worse, the "script" is that of a tragedy!

It really gets enervating over time. in the three years I have been here, the BHs that achieved recovery (of the dozens of cases presented) can be counted on one hand. Even the three most recent WWs that arrived here begging for "anything" to save their marriages, almost immediately started hemming and hawing, dodging and weaving, when "anything" was defined for them in MB terms.

(Ladies, kindly stifle your plaints of "What about us?" SP pointedly addressed WWs, so I kept the discussion there. WHs are not much better a bet to see the light. In fact, given the insight garnered here, I can now support gay marriage. Why should they be protected from the "joys" of marital infidelity?)

ETA: The phony-remorseful WW count should be FOUR in a row. I missed the most recent in my mental arithmetic.

SP,

Are you sure the affair is dead? The OM no longer works with your WW, correct?

Do you have spyware on her phone? Who is she texting all night?

BH - Her hone and computer are under a 24 hour watch ( remember the bedside beach bag), and based on her behavior I think the A is still definitely on - unless there is an OM2 which given her current attitude would not surprise me in the least.
NG - There has to be more recoveries than what you stated ? I think I am like Jon in the SAA book, she will need to move in with someone else before she realizes she screwed up. Meanwhile I have needs ! gosh darned it you know - I will qualify to be a monk soon.

There has to be more recoveries than what you stated ?

Nope. Triple H, PNA. HFD, MSS, myself.....There are a couple of sad souls who have accepted living a loveless marital life with a non-caring WW, but I cannot count them.

As for your Plan A/B/D decision....Remember, the extent of your Plan A is dependent on your $LB balance, NOT the (mostly mythical) chance of attracting her back to the marriage. (Seriously, the legendary MM aside, if she doesn't wise up immediately upon exposure - even IF the OM runs off - no WW ever makes it back.) Your realistic goal is to toss her (figuratively) into the trash like a banana peel - useless to any productive purpose, and dangerous to leave laying about.

Quote

Your realistic goal is to toss her (figuratively) into the trash like a banana peel - useless to any productive purpose, and dangerous to leave laying about

.

NG - You do have a way with words, I just heard from her that she is signing the purchase agreement tomorrow on a house. So she will be gone soon, then it will be plan B. My biggest concern right now is my son the HS senior financing his first year of college - since WW is helping herself to a chunk of that money.

Don't forget MM - he is reconciled

You counted MM sorry

Southpaw -- have your son sign up to Fastweb. It's a website online where there's a great variety of scholarships. If he's going to college this fall, more reason to do so quickly.

Has he filled out his FAFSA?

I did miss KGaa12 and one other BH whose name escapes me who lives in Hawaii.

The point is not whether the success total is seven or eight - the point is that it is, sadly, a small fraction of those that arrive here.

Jah jah's Thread

Karma - All the FAFSA stuff is done, he has some scholarship money, and financial aid etc. details for 3 schools that he has been accepted to. The balance ranges from $20,000 to $38000 per year depending on what school he wants to go to. Bad time for mom to be taking money to buy a house and double the family expenses !

Hey, SP.

Wanted to chime in and be the voice of another M in R after my FWW's 9mo A and 9mo FR.

Been in R for 14 months now. We are using MB as our guiding light. Without it, we would have been done a long time ago.

After dday, I kicked her out of the house and she continued her A for 9 more months.

R is possible even under the most dire of circumstances IF and only IF you have 2 willing partners that work together.

R is hard. Very hard. Even if your WW comes back and gives the M another try, it is going to be extremely taxing and difficult. R takes 2-5 years.

You are free to fire any questions at me and I will be happy to share the reasons for our success at this stage.

Cleaning up your side of the fence (convince her YOU have changed), being strong and having your OWN boundaries (ie�don�t be a doormat for her) will go a long way in earning her respect back in her consideration to take another look at the M. Also, making the A more trouble than it is work ie..run that POSOM out of your lives.

There is hope my man. Keep a strong backbone and your chin up!

Thanks 20 Year for your input. I think she has a long way to go, the secrecy, attitude, and personality that is foreign to me is very difficult to work with. I don't know if she will come back to normal. I know in your case and some others ( MM) they came back to normality in plan B.

She is one of six kids ( 5 siblings) of the 6 , she will be the third of six to leave their spouse and divorce them. An older brother left his wife, divorced her and is in an affairage. Her younger sister, had an on line EA with a woman, and left her husband and divorced him. and her OW moved in.

On a positive note, she has another older brother, his wife left him and moved in with her OM for several months, she came back and they reconciled.

In terms of divorce, she is well schooled by her siblings. She has a good support network of friends from work, and family close by ( all within an hour or so drive).

I work from home, so my work colleagues are all remote, and my family is in another country ( Scotland), Iterms of having a support network, I am at a disadvantage.

I have kept my boundaries high throughout this whole ordeal, as I have throughout our 25 year history together, and have avoided many high risk situations where an affair could have happened ( like most people in a committed marriage) My side of the street has improved, but has been pretty good, the only LB's that she can throw back at me were the few days after DD in which I was emotionally distraught and had some AO's.

Anyway - I think it will be plan B, but I don't think it will be 2 years - maybe 2 years total from when she showed signs of the affair - around Memorial Day last year.

I think her moving out will help my recovery, as it has been several months of secrecy, strange behavior, and the rollercoaster ride is taking its toll.

If it comes to plan B, just make sure you keep your side of the fence clean. I didn't, and it had serious negative consequences on my emotional well being. It's hard to quiet your taker after you've been giving for so long, but it is not worth it to give in. Stay strong.

Once I really came to the mental place that I only have control over my own actions and put my sole focus on myself..the world became an easier place to exist.


My professional career has skyrocketed, my personal relationships have never been better and I am just mentally stronger.

One of my biggest accomplishments was winning Employee of The Year at the company I work for...Now normally, this wouldn't be a huge deal..although quite an honor in itself..However, this award was given to me at the end of the year that I discovered my FWW's A and was going through the most difficult experience of my life.

Looking back, I don't know how I even kept my job let along win Employee of the Year.

How? I focused solely on myself, my own behaviors and decisions!

Amen to this

Quick update - note the new name. First - thanks for the comments from WOW and 20Year, I am feeling exhausted from fighting for my marriage, and living together with WW while the affair is active ( by text etc) is wearing me down. I have agreed to the divorce, which will be final next month, and agreed to release funds for ww to move in to the house that she bought in advance of the divorce settlement. Plan B will be after the divorce, or after she moves out, which ever comes first. I am ready to move on without her and work on rebuilding my life. I am now one year out from any intimacy in my life, and need to feel valued as a human being, I am done being demonized and trashed in order for ww to feel good about herself.

As far as plan B goes, I do not have an IM, anyone that I have asked has told me that they do not want to get involved, so I am still looking.

Anyway, my venting is done for now, thanks for the words of encouragement from all those who posted.

When she moves out, why not get an email IM? Say, someone from MB?

I did not realize I could do that, it could be a fair amount of work. Do other people do this ? how much do they get paid ?

I am in the early stages of my own little hell, so I can't offer any wisdom on yours, though this board has plenty to offer!
I just read your entire thread and I wanted to comment from a different point of view- that of a child of divorce. My parents divorced after 28 yrs of marriage b/c my father was a serial cheater who had another life. I was 23 at the time, and my younger sister was 16. All of us were shell shocked and devastated, my mother most of all. That was 9 years ago. I despised my father for a few years and it took time and a lot of prayer to forgive him. We are friends, but it is a moderately shallow relationship. My Mom is my best friend and we talk 2 or 3 times per day. Please do your children, most of all your daughter, the favor of being honest with them. Try to do it without venom or malice, but be clear about why your marriage is ending and how hard you have tried to fix it (and you have gone to heroic lengths). Girls desperately need a father who they can love, look up to, and use as a role model for choosing a mate. Your daughter is at a tough time in life, and, like me, it may take a couple yers to figure out where she stands. Just stay the course of honesty, love and support. My father was a terrible role model and I married his clone. My younger sister never recovered from the feelings of abandonment and killed herself almost two years ago. You have done an admirable job of attempting to save this marriage, and it will pay dividends for decades with your children and one day with your grandchildren. You may end up being the parent they talk to daily and WW will be just a friend. Be honest with them, and try to stress what you have learned about relationships from this process. I just wanted you to know that even if your marriage fails, you will eventually succeed with your kids and that is so incredibly important.

No one gets paid to be an IM, they volunteer. They are the filter between the WS and BS.

Here. IM Training School

Almnac,
Thank you for your insight and comments, I have followed your thread and can see that you got some valuable advice from seasoned veterans like Pepperband and others plus the Radio show advice for some actions to take once the baby is born. I hope that you can get on the path to recovery of your marriage using MB principles.

To be honest, I think my kids are closer to my wife than they are to me, that is just the way it is. When the kids were born and through their younger years, my wife was a SAHM, when they were in school, they went back to work part time. I have always taken the brunt of the financial commitment, and worked many hours, travelled etc in order to meet our financial needs. I am probably like Jon in the SAA book, and maybe the affair happened for similar reasons. Since we are not physically separated yet, there is no real effect on the children yet, there activities are unchanged, we both support them in the same way etc. Once the separation happens, that will change. I hope to develop a closer bond to my children as they get older. They know the reasons for the marriage break up, but seem to be in some kind of denial, which I think is due to WW's spin.

We have a shared custody arrangement with my DD after the separation, it is pretty much 50/50 during the summer, then alternate weekends plus a week night during the school year. I am not looking forward to my DD not living primarily in the same house as me, but it is not something that I can control, I did the best I could to get the agreement that I got.

WW has behaved badly to me, and is secretive and dishonest - however she is still an excellent mother, I think this is a bit different from the situation with your dad. I am sorry to hear about your sister, and I hope that the rest of your family has healed from the break up. In plan B, my door will be open to reconciliation ( for a while) but there might come a point when I am ready to move on, and plan B will prepare me for that.


Brainhurts - Thanks for your input, I will continue to try to find an IM locally, if I cant find one, then I will ask the forum for help.