Hi
I wanted to start out by thanking all the MB friends that I have made. Without the people here that have helped me I would not be writing this same letter.
I have posted here since DDay of May 05. Not a long time for many veterans here, but a long time in my world. I came here in May in utter shambles. I did not want to live, I was nothing, had nothing, and wanted nothing. I lost my best friend, husband, lover, parent and myself too.

I defined my entire life by our marriage. I was their mother, his wife, his friend, his lover. That was it, simple but true. Coming from a past of severe sexual abuse and physical abuse, I did not know anything else. He married a scarred, battered, suicidal, worthless, grieving for the loss of a parent, lonely teenager. I was 18 he was 34. In retrospect, he was the father I never knew. My real father passed away when I was 3. My H became a parent of me. Sad, but true.

I did not know how to love. I did not know how to trust. I had walls built up so high, that it was like the Great Wall in China. My FWH took me in and made me his wife. He chose me and I began to see that not everyone was out to hurt me. He made me feel like life was worth living. The MB’s have done that also. When Dday happened I received a lot of advice. I chose to ignore some, and keep my wall that had reappeared up, but began working on me. I went to IC, on AD’s, etc. But I never truly got it. I plan A’ed with FWH until I lost what plan A was all about. I spent the whole time doing for him. Never really for me, as I did not like me and thought that me was not worth anything. How could I be, I was still scarred and couldn’t keep him happy, so I once again was worthless.

I did however take the advice to work on the abuse. It has been utter h3ll most of the time. I hated the little abused girl inside of me for being weak; I even went so far as to blame HER for all of this. When my IC was telling me to hold her, comfort her, and incorporate her into who I have become, I instead kept on hating her. I also, began to even despise my FWH. Even though I thought that I had learned to love and trust, I had not. I had learned to be whatever he wanted me to be, whatever pleased him, whomever he would love.

I spent the last 17 years of my marriage doing just that. I was always the giver to the extreme, which actually caused him to want more and more. I became the enabler. So on the day that he “chose” to have his A and the entire 2 years of his LTA, I still gave the same amount, and she gave him the more he wanted. And even after Dday, I still kept right on giving and enabling him. His LB was filling to the over-full point, and mine was in the negative all along. If I think enough about it, I should have been the WS. My EN have not been met in the least.

So, now for the last month, I have been doing a lot of soul searching. Trying to find out who I truly am. In the process, I have been lost a few times. Missing key elements, and then slowly finding it along the way. It has been right in front of my eyes and I chose not to see it. I can be whoever I want to be. I chose to be a mother, and I feel that I am a wonderful one at that. I am a caring and helpful person. I am weak at times and I am now ok with that. The little girl is part of the whole picture. I cope with things different than people who have not been abused, but I still cope. I will get through the thick and thin, tough and easy. I do love myself now for the first time in my life.

This past week, FWH and I have spent time talking. Truly talking about the M, the A, my issues, and his issues. We are both hurting and I understand this. I hurt from the past, the A, and from years of neglect from him. He hurts from his previous 2 marriages, his A, and my falling out of love with him.

This morning, I let down my wall. I put it all out on the table. I am so raw, that it hurts just to sit and type these words. I asked him if he would contest if I filed for D. He said no. I asked why. He said if that is what I wanted, then he would not fight me; he wanted me to be happy. This is the first truly giving thing he has done for me in many years. He is willing to let me go so that I will be happy. I took off my wedding rings on Dday. They were broken in my mind. He continued to wear his. I asked why. He told me that he loves me and wants to be married to me. I explained to him that in my mind, when the two of us became three on his “choice”, the circle of unity between a husband and wife were broken, the rings are broken. So I removed his ring from his finger.

Now before anyone goes on to attack my actions, hear me out. When he had his A, it was his choice and not mine. I cannot change him; I cannot make him do anything he does not want to do. It has always been about his needs and his wants getting filled. I removed the ring for myself, not for him. He has the choice to listen to me, understand me, and love me. He can choose to deposit into the LB or continue to seek out getting his needs met without thinking about me. He can choose to put the ring on by himself and meet his own needs from this point on. I will not be a doormat any more. I am raw, I am exposed, I have no walls to protect me, and the little girl is out there for him to see. I have chosen to try to love him, be his wife, his friend, his lover. I will give it all I have. He has a choice once again, and I am hoping with all that is left that this time he chooses the M. We either enter into this new phase called Reconciliation on even terms this time, or we walk away knowing we did all that each of us could and it just isn’t meant to be.

Sorry this was soooo long. I hope that anyone who reads this will now give advice on where to go from here. This is virgin territory for me and any help would be a blessing. Criticism is also welcomed, but I might remind you, please do it with kindness. Thank you again.
JE

Justempty,

Good luck in your new journey, I am not an expert, but welcome. I have had excellent advice from MelodyLane, Orchid, Longhorn, Mortarman, JustLearning, and many others all who have a uniique, but similar story, from both sides. These experts will help you and your H more than you can ever believe. The journey is long and arduous, but from some of the posts I've read, well worth the trip.

Again welcome and good luck. I wish you all the best in your situation.

Eagle,
Thank you, and I am hoping with all hope that it is well worth the trip too.
JE

man, justempty. I'm sorry. Your post made me cry. I wasn't strong enough to give up, though. I know I could never make it without my FWH. He may not be wayward anymore, but later...who knows. He still doesn't seem to feel obliged to help me heal, still insists he did nothing wrong...(EA)whatever. Sometimes I wonder how I go on to survive each day. Just him refusing to validate the pain he has caused me is killing me. It makes you re-evaluate your entire world. Sometimes I wish I'd taken your way.

wish I'd been stronger... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

JustEmpty - I think you will be just fine, no matter which way the story ends. Once you realize that you are worthy, your life will be good. Blessings to you.

Monica- I am not advocating my way, trust me. I did what I had to do. I did many things wrong, but in the end I am giving him my soul handed on a platter. He can choose to throw me to the curb. But if he does, the MB's here and I will pick up the peices, and I will know I did all I could. Please keep strong. You will hear this over and over, and it took me months to hear it...YOU CANNOT CHANGE HIM...you can change you. You can be strong, you WILL be strong.
Giving up isnt the strong thing to do!! I was a coward, I blamed myself, and hid where I knew was my safe zone. In doing that, I have spent months being a zombie sometimes.
I have just started to heal, and have quite a journey ahead of me. I will walk this with you if you like.

Believer- you have always been there for me, from the first posts. I am forever in your debt. I know in my heart that if he chooses to be selfish and push me away, that you my dear will always be there to pick me up, dust me off, and give me a great big hug. I am hoping to be the kind of person you are. I just wish I could return the favor to you someday. Thank you

JE

Monica wrote: Your post made me cry. I wasn't strong enough to give up, though. I know I could never make it without my FWH. He may not be wayward anymore, but later...who knows. He still doesn't seem to feel obliged to help me heal, still insists he did nothing wrong...(EA)whatever. Sometimes I wonder how I go on to survive each day. Just him refusing to validate the pain he has caused me is killing me. It makes you re-evaluate your entire world. Sometimes I wish I'd taken your way.

My H still insists that he did nothing wrong, that I ruined the love we had. It would help so much if they would just acknowledge the pain they've caused. Also, will they always be a FWH or will someday it become a current A again. I'm constantly worried about this, and question everything in our life as a result. How does a person go on like this??

JE -
I was a complete basket case when I came here. In fact I thought the advice here was completely CRAZY. I used to post on a different site, but dropped by here to check on things.

What I saw was marriages being saved, and people healing without their spouse, over and over.

You are already helping people here in the midst of your own pain. Folks like that always do just fine.

sutherlandgirl, it's a matter of the lost trust. How we can ever give it back is a mystery to me. I'm not sure I can have faith that he'll refrain from doing those things which hurt me so bad...in the future. If they wont accept that they've hurt us, how can they keep from doing it later on?Like I said, sometimes I wish I'd taken Justempty's way. Maybe I could have begun to move on by now.

BTW, Justempty, thanks for offering your support, girl. I take it like a hug, a desperately needed hug. I've been trying to drown it all out with vodka (which hasn't and doesn't work) unfortunately I'm afraid I may have developed an addiction over these last few months. It's been like a fifth every 2 days. I don't get wasted or anything, I just stay lightly buzzed ALL DAY...thinking it will help (which it never does, only seems to give me suicidal thoughts)Even still, I hope I don't need a 12 step program, or anything now. Of course he'll accept no accountability for THAT either...sigh...

Sutherland and Monica,
I am so sorry for your current situations. When the WS or FWS are in the fog or even sometimes coming out of the fog they do and say hurtful things. I am not justifying what they do, just stating the facts. However, you as BS's need to remember, that along with the A and the fog, is also the withdrawl that the WS feel when going NC with the OP. DO not take them for face value at this time.
You need to remember to put your best foot forward, do a complete plan A and do it right, not the way I did it. You should move to plan B before all your love for your WS is gone. I did not do this per say. I did a crappy plan A by losing the path of what plan a was all about, and because of it I lost even more than that. I was wrong, but have learned from my mistakes.
My FWH now I think does know the pain he caused to some extent. He never thought of me as a friend during the entire 17 years of our marriage. I was HIS wife. His issues stem from 2 previous marriages, with his first wife cheating on him, so he is actually a BS too. I think in some way I ended up being the punching bag for what his exFWW did to him. I dont think he has ever healed from that.

So with that in mind, please even if you FWS's do not help you heal, do it anyway. For yourself and your kids. You owe that to you and to the kids. Your strength, your healing. You are to work on you to show them how you have changed too.

Does that help?

not to hijack your thread. I'll start a new onw if you'd like.

NO monica, you are fine keep posting, keep on healing

Believer-
"What I saw was marriages being saved, and people healing without their spouse, over and over."
I also posted elsewhere and have gotten great work with the abuse stuff too. But here is where my heart has always been, but my darn brain kept blocking me..lol <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Monica-
"BTW, Justempty, thanks for offering your support, girl. I take it like a hug, a desperately needed hug. I've been trying to drown it all out with vodka (which hasn't and doesn't work) unfortunately I'm afraid I may have developed an addiction over these last few months. It's been like a fifth every 2 days. I don't get wasted or anything, I just stay lightly buzzed ALL DAY...thinking it will help (which it never does, only seems to give me suicidal thoughts)Even still, I hope I don't need a 12 step program, or anything now. Of course he'll accept no accountability for THAT either...sigh... "

I will add here that I have been there done that!! It truely doesnt help. Plus, you need to remember one thing here:
You are accountable for what happens to you
You are special and loved here by many.
I will help you.
I used drugs and alcohol daily in my teens. Lived on the streets. I have lots of experience in many areas, but am by no means an expert. I just have the unfortunate experiences that I have , and the mistakes I have made along the way to learn from. That is what I was saying earlier to you and sutherland. I make many mistakes along the way. I fumble, I faulter, and I even cause myself harm. But I finally after 35 years LOVE ME!!
From sexual abuse, rape, physical abuse, living in a home where I never heard "I love you" once as a child, drugs and alcohol, attempted suicide, to marrying a very selfish and wounded soul, to being able to finally let it go a little, look up and see some light at the end of the tunnel.
This came about by :
1. Accepting that I cannot change anyone, not him, not you, not even my kids. I can influence, but I cannot change them.
2. His choices were HIS CHOICES.
3. My coping mechanisms are not perfect, but they are part of me.
4. No matter how many times I fail or faulter, I will rise above it.
5. I LOVE ME, to many this seems silly, but I am sure alot of people get that. No matter the outcome of all of this, I am who I am. I accept that and I love it.


Monica- consider yourself bear hugged. To admit that and post it, takes courage. It took alot to do that and I admire you for it. Please dont try to drown you sorrows, you need to feel them and own them. They are yours, and with help you can shoulder them. But if you try to drown them, they will come back and bite you right in the butt. That is what my abuse did to me. I used alcohol and drugs to drown out my feelings, and on DDAy it bit me hard.
It works for a short time, but you now need to put it aside, take a stand and be who you can be. With or without your FWH
All the MB's here will help you along the way. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Monica-
How are you doing this am? Thought I would check in on you.
JE

thanks justempty. I'm ok so far. I finally let my H drive HIMSELF to work for the first time in months and he came home after about 3 hours. I know we need the $, but since his EA involved girls at work, the less time he spends there, the better (for me). He said he wasn't feeling good. See, I have been driving him to work, going for his lunch, and picking up after work ever since the middle of October, when I FOUND OUT. Today, however, I told him to just go ahead and take the van, just to see how he'd do...if he'd be late...etc. And he comes home EARLY! -What a relief!
Anyway, I know that drinking doesn't help, even though you try to lie to yourself about that when you're aching for a shot. But, hey! it's almost 11, and I've only had a couple of swallows! (normally, I'm on it by 9 am)
Like I said, I don't get drunk, but drinking hard liquor is especially dangerous for me. I used to abuse advil of all things, and it ate an ulcer in my stomach the size of my thumb. It ended up perforating & I needed emergency surgery & almost bled to death. Now I have a patch sewn to my stomach lining, and have been advised that alcohol could cause it to re-perforate. So, you see, vodka is really bad for me. I wish I could keep that in mind when I'm downing that crap...And you're right. I can't do this to myself. I have a 4 year old little girl and a 13 year old little girl, both of whom love and need me.
it's just really hard most of the time...

well, I think I'm doing rather well. It's 2:18 and I haven't had but a few swigs.
How are you doing today? You ok? What you're going through must be so tough.
I hope I'm able to help you, as well. Send me an email anytime if you need one, and my yahoo is monicalcummings if you can't get me here, I can sometimes be found there, playing euchre...

On a side note, I took my H to a concert friday night (for his birthday). It was Sevendust w/4 other bands at a local 2-story club. GREAT show, but HERE'S the kicker: Jada Pinkett-Smith's band was one of the opening acts. You know...pretty red carpet girl, JADA, Will Smith's wife. Well, as it turns out, she's the frontman, er, woman, of Wicked Wisdom, a flippin' HARD CORE HEAVY METAL group. They were TOO MUCH! Awesome band! VERY heavy. She was a bad-a** to the CORE! It absolutely blew my mind to see her up there like that. THEN, we look across the room to see Will Smith sitting at a table bobbing his head in time to the music! I was like " no way, you HAVE to be kidding me" so after her band was done we passed him on the stairs and met him. He was very cordial. I was going on and on about how his ol" lady rocks a**, and he was all "thanks alot, it means a lot to her. This is her heart's calling" He was very sweet, shook my H's hand, and went on his way.
can u believe it? Freakin Will Smith at a hard-core industrial metal concert!
that seemed to bump my H's mood up a couple of notches...

dang, why doesn't my bio show up on my posts?

Hey monica...
Its a great start, and with 2 dds you will do it. I know you can, others do too...Just think where you would like to be in a year and go for it.
I dont know much about bands, but love will smith...very funny guy. Sounds nice too which is definately a plus.
Hey just knowing you are there and willing to help, helps me alot. I keep saying to myself, I CAN DO THIS, I WILL DO THIS. I think that once I began to trust myself enough to say and mean that, I have been going full steam ahead. But like you, it is one step in front of the other, one day at a time.
FWH actually read my letter above with my asking, and asked questions, and stated that he knows he needs to work on it, but he is so overwhelmed by it all. I do understand that. Here is a kicker too....he signed up with MB!!
I am hoping he can come on here and tell his side of the story, and even hopefully get some help from the FWS. That was a big thing for me today, I had bad news but his good far outweighs anything bad right now.
So I am on a natural high. Feels great.
You will get there and when you do look out world!!
(((((((((((((monica))))))))))))))))

Oh forgot to add, I cant even figure out how to quote people, so I dont know how to fix bios, that is definately for the veterans...lol

Go to top of thread see where it says My Home? Click that and look in there you can set it up there.

Monica-
How are you? Havent heard from ya in a few and wanted to check.....
I need to hear from you!! Are you ok?
JE

JE,

You said
There won't be any pieces JE. You are a whole adult human being now. You may hurt, but you will NOT break into pieces. I am hoping that your H sees what you have offered him. It seems to me your offer is for him to be married to an adult woman. A woman that would and could love him IF he chooses to love her.

The counceling has done you a lot of good and you have come a long way. Keep going, and maybe, just maybe your H will decide to travel with you through life. But, no matter what you are on your trip and I suspect your trip will have many more highs than lows now.

God Bless,

JL

Thank you JL,
I feel that I have grown so much in the past few months. Things that were big and seemed so important, just dont carry the same weight anymore. I constantly find myself taking a step back and weighing the options and regarding them to my family and current situation. If it threatens the family in anyway, I just say no thanks.
I hope with all my heart that my FWH comes around. He has a long road to his own personal recovery, and I would like to be there for him. He tends to shut me out. He has told me that he thinks that I could find someone better. That he isnt worthy of anyones love. Although the situations are different between his choices and past, and mine the hurt is still the same. Low self esteem, self blaming, minimalizing, disassociation, etc. Those components are all the same and do the same damage.
He has signed on with MB, read the harley books, and does tell me he loves me. I am holding out hope that he, the MB's here, and I can guide him through his recovery. I think he is ready, he is just feeling so overwhelmed and does not know where to start.
I know how much help being here has meant to me and my recovery, I hope he gets the same results, so that in time we both are mature enough to work on the M.
JE

JE,

This may seem odd to you, but now that you are grown <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />, you may need to lead him a bit. One of my all time favorite sayings is the following Your H may need some help from you organizing all of the information here and being dumped on him.

I just posted to him earlier, I am sure he is confused and a bit overwhelmed. Some of this he must figure out himself, but if you can help him with the organization aspects of it, I have a feeling he may be a quick study. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hang in there.

God Bless,

JL

Hey, JE. I'm ok, just haven't had too much time, and I have a monster cold. (hope it's not the flu...) Anyway, I'll be back later on to talk. I gotta get some running done. See ya.

Hope you are feeling better soon.
Chat with you soon.
JE

Just wanted to update from the letter. The last couple of days have been wonderful. FWH (lostone2006) has reached out to people here and has been more attentive and even tempered. He has posted here and is looking for a starting point, and seems to maybe be getting some. He has listened to me and seems to be taking it in.
I have been filling his EN again. I am feeling valued as a person, a whole adult person. I am hoping that this is not just the typical 2-3 week thing that he has done before. I hope that he will continue to look at himself, the M and me as a work in progress.
Like I stated before, I care very deeply for him. The in love and love feeling is not there yet, but I do have tingling.
Now the problem. How do I let go of the fear of being hurt? How do I let him in knowing he may hurt me again?
I have spent along time, no LBing, filling EN for him, working on me, etc. But there is still the M to work on.
I am still very hurt. I am still very scared. I am still working on the anger and the images in my mind.
Does anyone have any stratagies for overcoming the fear, hurt, etc. to move on to R. I need to give even more now and I know that. I am ready, but very anxious and somewhat apprehensive. This is what I asked him for, and he is starting to do this, now I need to support him...
JE

JE,

You asked
No problem this is SIMPLE, it just is not easy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Seriously, let's go over this abit. Fear of being hurt will diminish with time as he shows consistent behavior and support of you. He cannot possible remove the fear in a few weeks, it will actually take years. The feelings will come back before that, but the fear will be there.

However, there is something you can think about as well. What do you fear? Being alone? You have already stated to him that you are ready and willing to file, so that cannot be a fear now can it. Fear of being hurt? Well, you have been hurt and survived so think about that.

So give him time and realize he is going to mess up from time to time, but here is something to consider. As you interact with him not as a child or a victim but as an adult, I think he is going to enjoy YOU so much more. He is going to become connected to you in ways he could not and did not before. You are going to be his PARTNER and I think he will truely enjoy that alot. If this is correct, then I think you will enjoy your marriage more than you ever have before.

So hang in there, give him some help and have him stay here on this site. He will get more advice and support for he will need it, just as you have.

Must go.

God Bless,

JL

JL-
I fear the being hurt the most I think. The pain is so vivid still, I deal with it, and have done quite well. It is still a scab though, not bleeding, but still there. I know that it will not take alot to scratch the scab off. I am trying to protect him from my bad days, and knowing it will all blow over tomorrow, etc. But the hurt feeling has been h*ll.
I will get him on here as much as possible. He needs help and never has reached out before. He went to IC because I insisted that he either go to IC or leave. Wrong to do, but I did say I made mistakes along the way...lol.
I know I kept repeating the MB principles and the posts of how to get past the A and withdrawl, and kept on doing it hopeing the light bulb would go on at some point, but it didnt until he read here. SO I put the foundation in, but MB is building the walls so to speak. Now the rest needs to be built.
Thank you for your post. I think I am just trying to jump the gun, and want the pill to make it all better. Not happening, I know...
JE

JE,

Nope not happening with the pills. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But, let your H know how you feel, how fragile you feel. Not so that he can "do something" but that he is aware. But, when you do this, also comment on how the last few days have been for you...much better. You need to reinforce his good behavior so that he learns how to read you. Just remember the man is NOT a mindreader. He cannot know or feel your fear. More importantly if sometimes words seem to cause defensiveness, when you feel fear look at him and just ask him to hold you or hug you.

Also, if YOU want his attention, touch him when you talk to him. Most of us guys respond to contact with our W's in ways you may not really understand. I suspect your H will as well. You can put your hand on his arm, his hand, his shoulder, or just sit leaning on him. It works use it.

Long road JE, but life is a long road, and just maybe your H will wake up and walk the road with you. That would make JUSTempty very happy, and JUSTlearning very happy to hear. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

God Bless,

JL

((( Justempty )))

Bless you dear. You have come so far, what is your secret to dealing with the pain that life has thrown you and coming out so much stronger and smarter !!

You are my new hero

I feel that my biggest problem with myself is my fear of abandonment and rejection. I was adopted as a baby, never felt loved growin up, huge physical abuse in my first marriage... on and on..

I have recently met my bio father and brother. While it was a wonderful experience.... it just didn't fill the hole that has always been there .....

Now that I would love to talk with a IC I find myself for the first time in my life without health insurance. My WH is not a very good provider. He has leaned on me most of the time, and now it is his turn.. he is not doing too good....not too good at all !!!

I just wanted to chime in here. I am in awe of you.

I KNOW you will be just fine.. extra fine.

carnation

Hey "shoog" I'm better today. Glad to see your fwh is reading and posting. I wish mine would. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
As far as the fear and hurt and how to make it DIE, I wish I knew. I think time and consistent behavior on his part is the only way (like jl said). It's been since the middle of October for me, and I still feel so raw. From many of the posts I read here, I gather that we may have years of healing ahead of us. I truly hope that's not the case, but at least we know how hard it can be, AND, probably the most important thing is that we have so many here to help us through. Just reading the posts can be so helpful because you see that you're NOT alone. Even when your spouse gets tired of nursing your wounds, the kind people here will be around to help us get through that, as well. I find that very helpful. If I'm feeling especially crappy about things on any given day, I can get on here and it does make me feel better.
Even still, though, there will be fear and hurt.
I wish I could hug ya, and if you were here I would (I need one too). Thank God we have this place, right?

Update for me again:
I am going to back off from MB for a while. I am doing this out of respect for my FWH. I know he need everyone here alot and hopefully will begin healing and working on R.
I have done alot of soul searching and feel pretty good right now with myself. I have triggers and trying to deal with them and still put 100% into the R also.
He is new here and needs time for his issues. I know that he does not want to hurt me, and thoughts of me reading his posts may even make it harder for him. I want him to be honest with everyone here. I do not think he can do that knowing I may lurk onto his posts.
I also am feeling way to tempted to just read them. He has always been such a closed book to me, and I want to know him. But in that aspect, I am removing myself from the temptation at this point.
I dont want people to think that I am being selfish. Far from it. I want to know his feelings, I want to be part of his healing, but I know I am not strong enough to resist the temptation each time I sign on here and see his threads or where he posts. I am weaker than I thought I was. So in that aspect, I will withdraw a little and get myself back on track.
I will overcome this and be stronger. I know I will. Thank you to all who have helped me and to all that will help him.
JE

Gosh, JustEmpty, I hate for you to miss the support here. Also you are so good at helping others.

I think it is okay to read the other spouse's posts. He will probably be rather closed-mouth anyway, until he feels comfortable here.

JE,

I have an idea. Ask your H if he will print out his thread and let you read them. The difference? You won't be interacting with us on your H's thread, but you will get to see what you need to see and hear. Discuss this with him.

I am not breaking any confidences by telling you that I think you find his posts very kind to you, and full of his despair as how to help you.

But, talk with him. REading the printed out posts will probably relieve the temptation for you to post on his thread and "set the record straight". Frankly, from what I have said I doubt you find much to straighten out.

Nevertheless, talk with him and see what you can figure out. AND yes let him know why you want to know. He may be surprised at how you feel that you don't know him.

God Bless,

JL

Hey JE,
If you want to just chat, here's my email mbmoveforward@ yahoo.com. I am a BS, too.

I hate for you to leave here, but if you need a break, that's ok. Might help to keep solme emails just in case. Sometimes it really helps to talk.
Pam

Hello,
Well 2 whole days gone and I cannot continue NC with MB...
I am addicted I guess. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Oh well, I tried and failed. So be it for me to fight it. But I will be strong about not reading lostone2006's posts until he is ready for me to read them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well I triggered BIG time on Friday night, and the withdrawl, anger, pain lasted way longer than I was ready for. I figured, I am feeling soo good about how far I have come from 9 months ago, why not back off and let FWH get some wonderful advice and help from you guys. I know how much this lifeline has helped me, so I thought I will not be selfish and let him borrow you for a while. I figured on a month, well that didnt happen. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
I am much better now, and hoping to not do that again. It scared the living death out of me. I wanted so much to LB him, scream at him, hit him, punch a wall, what ever. Now I am not nor have I ever been violent. But I scared myself for sure. I may have been wrong, but as angry as I was, I could not have FWH around. I did not trust MYSELF! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
Now I need anger management help I guess. I do not ever want to feel that angry again. Sure after dday I was angry, kicked him out, but I did not want to hurt him. All I keep saying is WOW.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
I have always prided myself in my laid back temper. Sure I can argue with the best of them, and I can take care of my own, especially to protect the kids (mother lion) but never at FWH. But I am much better now. I have dealt with the trigger as best I could but it sure did hurt like heck.

Thank you to everyone for posting to me. I feel really bad for backing away, I had the right idea, but did it in the wrong way. But 2 days isnt too bad. So sorry again. I sure did miss you guys terribly. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Hey Girl,
Welcome back <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Are you in counseling? It has really helped me with my anger issues over the A.

Screaming and punching a pillow helps even if it does sound cliche.

Glad you're back.

I graduated from IC...
Go figure...and yes the poor pillow hates me now!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
JE

Haha. I knew you couldn't stay away. Glad you are back.

I know what you mean by the anger surprising you when you are generally a laid-back person. I did some completely crazy things while angry.

Believer,
You I have sooo missed!!!! I give you a great big hug if I could. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
FWH told me about your post....Now he is a cad....lol
He had me look it up, and I could not help but laugh, I almost peed my pant...He took it well. LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Nope I couldnt stay away, but I did deal with the trigger ON MY OWN!! That felt so, cant even describe it, so big girl like...awesome....freeing... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Thank you for being there....and being you.
I just wish I could help you as much as you have helped me. You are a wonderful woman. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
Thank you!!

Your husband seems very nice, and very sorry. I don't blame you for being very angry. I could hardly believe it, and I've seen lots of strange things here.

Don't worry about me. I'm doing just fine. I stayed home from work today to treat myself for Valentine's Day. I didn't do anything, except catch up on things around the house, and it felt GOOD.

I know how that feels believer...
on the FWH..
I still dont get the A, but whatever...but it ticks me off about the renewing of vows...
That is the most hurtful thing of it all I think. My thinking on it with the trigger on friday, was screw me once shame on you, screw me twice shame on me.
I was taking all the blame, seeing him in the pictures distant, uncaring. And dumb me, happy in love, googly eyed, smiling, in love.
And after the renewing of vows we went on a real honeymoon too. We were quite poor after our marriage, and I was 3 months pregnant, so we went camping for a weekend 15 minutes from the house. It rained and I left early with morning sickness and freezing. So the renewal we went to Foxwoods in Conn. and I so loved him. But within 3 days of returning from the honeymoon the first call about an A came in. He denied, blamed it on my job(DON in nursing home so I fired a few people) so I was soo in love I believed a foggy WH...DUH..
SO I was taking the blame but wanting to literally strangle him. I didnt know I had that in me. The A's bring out the worst in both spouses I guess.

I am glad you had a good Vday. I hope the very best for you in life, you deserve soo much more than the crap you got from you WH.

JE

Ooops. I'd told him I hoped you didn't spend a lot of money on the renewal thing, since it was meaningless, and I don't think he answered.

Well, just one more betrayal to get over. What are these guys thinking? Oh, that's right, they aren't.

I spent a whole lot. He spent nothing!! It cost me over 3 thousand!! Do I have something written on my forehead??
He is very good at not answering. He hears what he wants and loves attention. I was hoping he wouldnt do that here.
I do not read his posts, and would never post to him directly because I have seen some on here that go at each other, and I am not willing to do that. But, I sure was hoping that he would be answering you guys, and asking questions about him and working on his self esteem, guilt, etc.
I asked him a few questions today...
Do you know the difference between guilt and remorse? him NO
When you say you are sorry, are you? I think so
Are you asking questions on how to deal/heal? Yes...

His #1 EN is affection/admiration.
He is great at hugging me, snuggling, etc because it meets his needs. I get it but he doesnt.
My #1 EN has and will always be open and honest!!

I think he is in denial about somethings though. He feels that he was good with the kids and me during his A! Now, I just dont get that. I was here, I heard the "I love you but..." crap, etc and the kids took a big hit with his DJ's and angry outbursts too. So maybe he is still in the fog even though NC since supposively Nov. 04

But like I said in the my first post on this thread. I have laid my heart and soul out for him. Either he works on him, and the M with a 100% effort or I have had enough.
He knows I do not love him. He knows I have done all I can at this point. I do not trust him. My love bank is bankrupt and his is overfull to the bursting point. He loves me and I do know this. But that does not change a whole lot. I sound so cold and I dont mean to be. But, I have put 100% into the M for 9 months now, with not a whole lot given back. I want more out of a M. I just hope he steps up, heals/deals with himself, so that we can get on with R. We cannot fully R until he understands the hows, whys, etc so that I know he will never do it again.

And most guys think mostly with thier little heads, and there isnt any room for thier brains...
Not nice, I know I had to male bash a little..
sorry to all the guys that may read this....
JE

monica, I'm sorry to hear about your situation. I am a FWW, so if you don't want to read what I have to say, I more than understand. Please know that I empathize with you.

Please read some of eldente's posts. He struggles with alcohol abuse and has been very honest about it. His posts are illuminating.

Your H needs to accept responsibility for his actions, but your drinking is not his action, it is yours, and thus your responsibility. The reason you are not getting "buzzed" is because you are developing a tolerance...your liver is getting better at processing alcohol. Alcohol is a depressant and will only increase your suicidal thoughts, as you discovered.

I'm sure that you have things to live for, dreams that you have, people that you love, and who love you. Take care.

If you are feeling suicidal

JustEmpty - Don't worry, he seems to be doing just fine. He probably didn't want to say how much the fake renewal of vows cost.

I keep forgetting to ask - do the two of you work opposite shifts?

JE,


I think that this describes many FWS/WSs.


That's very smart of you. My H and I fell into this trap at first and it was not pretty. Now, my H reads my posts and we talk about them. Occasionally he posts and he will call attention to posts that resonate with him. For us, it's about learning to communicate better. That will be the key to our R.


As I've said before, any BS willing to give a FWS a second chance deserves my respect. I owe so much to my H for staying with me through this horrible mess that I created and tried to sweep under the carpet.

Having been betrayed, you need to have your Love Bank rebuilt. You need your H to be totally honest with you about his A. And you don't sound cold to me, you sound betrayed and honest. What can your FWH do for you? What are the things he could do that would make deposits in your LB? Because it's not just about him, his self-esteem and his guilt, his remorse or lack therof. It's about him making deposits and amends with the goal of having you fall in love with him again. (This was from a counselling session my H had w/S. Harley). I found it helpful to think of our R in terms of the things I can do *for* my H, instead of feeling powerless and inept as well as adulterous.


That's my H's first need as well. Didn't meet that need too well for a long time, did I? So I do now, even if I am afraid it will hurt him in the short term (which it did, and still does, of course).


FWP can be good at denial, unfortunately. I wish you both the best in your R.

I did the ring thing too. This may have been my most effective response to the question of infidelity.
I was married he was not.

Believer,
We never did. But now, about a month ago he and I repeat he made a decision to move to second shift. We do not see much of each other anymore. I have told him that we did not and do not POJA. He agrees, but the sorrys come. I understand the need for them, but they do not seem to be sincere in the least lately. The changing of shifts really upset and continues to upset me. It was very selfish on his part and he just told me he was going to do it. Then after moving to the second shift, he told me he HAD to go away to school, and I HAD to pick which one. I was furious to say the least, and I refuse to do so. He was unwilling to POJA the shift change, and the schooling which requires him to go out of state for at least 3 weeks. NOT happening right now.
Maybe later, but now is not the time. He told me also that if second shift did not work out, he could go back. I asked him after 1 week to go back. In my opinion, he dragged his feet and finally after over a month, told them. Amazingly they gave his day job away the day before!! So that is where we stand.


Penalty,
I have been telling him this. He does not meet any of my top 3 needs. Twice in the past 2 months, then will immediately withdraw them with something else. Example above with his job. In addition, I have set a boundary of no internet unless on MB, and no ebay. Well since dday he has lied, fabricated, told half truths. He told me he could not get on internet at work. Then I find out he is often. I asked why and how? He said, well that was for a short time, but can get on now. Then I asked him to cancel his email and use mine to be transparent. So he tells me he did. Then I find out he is still using his email and mine. Also, just 2 days ago was on ebay again...at least the 10th time since dday and boundaries, and during a huge trigger of mine...and he gives excuse of ..my friend needed me to ask question because he doesnt have ebay acct., and he told me about his cell phone, then when on ebay and bought one!

The boundaries keep getting crossed and I have no clue how to make them stick. I cannot make him and cannot change him.

To deposit in my love bank, I need honesty and openess. I need him to do household stuff and spend time with the kids. None of the latter 2 can be done on second shift and he sugar coats and gives half truths about everything.

He tells me he is afraid of me and women in general. I do not understand it, but I have maybe LB'd him by saying to him, you betrayed me, cheated, lied...what else could you do to know that I am not going to bite your head off. He fears losing me, but in doing as he is, he is losing me steadily anyway.

Many have asked about MC....
I personally have been there done that. I will give the short version here...
We went in beginning of A. I of course did not know about the A. But had asked him when I got the, "I love you, but"
This MC attacked me. I was to blame for his lack of love because I was asking this. The MC discussed WH issues from his childhood, all the while chastizing me. Like I was not trusting him and believing him because of my childhood abuse. SO problem with M was me and my past.
Now 2 years later I find out that he in fact was cheating. I sought out help and got slapped.
However we both after dday went to IC. I graduated with honors. He just stopped. My IC told me that with what I describe, I am right on track. I have and had made many changes prior to dday, did plan A back then and did not know what it was. I dealt with my abuse that triggered after dday, in a healthy way. I feel great about myself. I love me and who I have become. I will always, no matter what deal like an abuse survivor, and that is how I deal. It works and works well. She actually commented on how much crap I have dealt with and how truly functional I am.

I would love to share the rest of my life with my FWH. I know he has it in him somewhere. I know he is in pain, and trys. I tell him when he does well. I really do. I just dont think he has gotten it yet, or if he ever will.
The Harleys do say if the love bank is bankrupt it can come back and I am holding onto that hope. That is all I have to hold on for the M.

Hopefully here he will get to some points, get great advice, and the big part....make the changes. He has read all the books, but does not follow them. Maybe hearing from people here will help.

Hope this helps a little. And penalty, I admire FWS also. You show such courage coming on here, working through this, and moving on. You are a special group here too. It takes all of us to make this place so great.

Thank you all

The second shift thing is completely CRAZY! What is he thinking? People who work opposite shifts tend to end up divorced - and that is in a marriage that has not been throttled by infidelity.

Believer,
I wish he had asked me, talked to me, POJA'd it. But, alas I was not included. Well I cant say that, He did mention it, I told him that I didnt not want him to do that. He "chose" to do it anyway. Now I get, "I like the shift, I get to sleep in late" "I have always liked 3-11". Which I respond to him, that it is not working. He sleeps till 10-11 am, gets up, eats breakfast, picks up after the dogs, packs his lunch, eats a sandwich and leaves at 1:15-1:30 for work, gets home at midnight, then to bed.
He is off on Wed and Thurs, I am off Mon and Tues. So I see him about 2 hours on Mon. &tues, then from 5-9 on wed and thurs. THat is it. Total of 12 hours per week and the kids are here in evenings..so really only 4 hours per week together.
In the Harley book it says 15 hours for a good marriage...well we are not even close.
But know he says he cannot go back to days, he works for the post office, so who knows.

I have issues with his job anyway. He met and slept with her always from work. Never any other time. They met on his lunch breaks, or he would say he had to work overtime. His coworkers saw this and looked the other way. IF the OW friend and OW did not call I would have never known.
I asked him to quit his job, because that is where they met, and when he was trying to go NC, she kept going there to talk to him. He said he would, then refused and still works there. I know it is a good job, and was hard to get but it is even worse on this shift. No way to check on him, with 4 kids going here there and everywhere each evening. At least on days I could go by, we could have lunch together, etc.
Oh well. I just thought I would keep rambling today. I have diarrhea of the mouth. At least it is here and not LBing him, right. Sorry guys...

I suggest more counseling. For someone that wants to save his marriage, he is not making good choices. Maybe if he hears it from a marriage counselor. People who work different shifts, even in the BEST marriages, have problems.

Thank you Believer.
I have said this. But the big problem...
He sugar coats everything. I do not know what went on with his IC last time, went to 4 sessions total and said the counselor said he was ok???
If you go and dont tell and ask and work on things, then they cant help you. I think (I could be wrong) but that is what happened. All he ever talked about was his past..meaning that his parents divorced when he was 14, dad was an alcoholic, and cheating on his mom. His dad wasnt home much, but was a good dad when he was home. He had a great relationship with him after he left his moms home. He keeps going over this, but not the M or his low self esteem, serial cheating, denial, depression, etc.
So how does an IC help if you dont bring it up, or push it under the rug?
These are my thoughts, he wont tell me what exactly happened at IC. I went to 5 sessions, he went to 4. That is all there. I am really reluctant for MC because of the mindF that I got from the last one. It truly has me scared and I felt that it didnt help in fact it hindered our recovery for 2 years.
JE

Well, there is a forum here about finding a good marriage counselor. There are lots of bad ones.

I did ask your husband about working that shift on his thread. Waiting for an answer.

I will look into it. Thanks again...I just have cold feet. I have been seriously thinking about the Harleys, but I just started physical therapy, and 4 in braces really puts a hinder on the money, plus I dropped hours to spend time with FWH a few months ago. I guess I could go back up to full time since his days off are different now..
I will look into it.
JE

Well, the Harleys will tell you to spend 15 hours a week doing enjoyable things together. Start there. If there is no time, then you will have to change things so that there is.

Also read the POJA stuff here. Following THAT prevents a lot of problems.

je---i just want to throw in my support and let you know i am praying for you both!

JE, I see your predicament. It's as though your H has good intentions, knows he has been wrong, but cannot motivate himself to do the tough things that would really spur your recovery.

I empathise with you both. R is not for the faint of heart.

I am not sure that you should go back to work f/t just to pay for counseling. With four children, (in braces, no less!) that may put quite a strain on you and the marriage. It is for you both to think about further.

I also empathise with you on the mindf from your 1st MC. My H and I had a pretty bad experience with our first one as well. Yikes. It sounds like you got the shaft all right. There are probably about as many good ones as there are bad ones, and unfortunately the only way to tell is to begin counselling with them and see how you feel. That is an expensive proposition.

I think that if you can *possibly* swing it, calling the Harleys would help. Even just a couple of calls. But I understand financial concerns, particularly when there are children to care for.

I am sending both of you good thoughts. Take care, JE.

Thanks Nikko, I think we need the support alot too.
Penalty,
We will chat about it. I will check into the cost of the Harleys and maybe try to swing a few sessions. I would love to go to a MB weekend, but being way up north, not many opportunities would arise. So, I will look into the phone counseling and MC that are recommended here and do some homework.
Thank you,
JE

I think I would start on spending 15 hours a week doing pleasant things together (without the kids). Can you do that? It doesn't have to be things that cost a lot - just time spent together.

Hi there, I'm back, too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hello Monica,
How are you doing?

So much has been happening lately I would like to update and ask for assistance maybe.

FWH gave me the NC letter this morning. It was the one right out of Surviving the A. Waited 9 months for it and never expected one, kinda felt weird. He has stated he was NC for 6 months prior to dday, so it would make it actually a year and a half since last contact. It was sent this am by me. Question: Should I expect this to now open another can of worms? I mean if they truly have been NC for that long, will it not cause her to think about him and try to make contact? She told me that she loved him, and they were together for 2 years and he broke it off with her. I thought about this as I was putting it in the mail, but knew it needed to be done for him and me. SO that is progress that I can see, which is nice.

Last night we were snuggling and talking about the M and comfort levels with each other. I am becoming more open with my intimacy, which has always been an issue. I am trying to tell him what does and does not feel good. That is extremly hard for me to do. While talking about this, I make a suggestion in a very seductive way, may have stated it wrong and he pulled away, put his face in the pillow, and kinda huffed at me.
To many this may not be an issue, but with my past, just to be initmate is hard at times and things were flowing so well, but when he did that my typical shut down and find a safe place mode kicked in. He felt bad, but unfortunately I cannot help it or stop it most of the time. I do try and have made huge progress, but that immediately shuts me down, and I am no longer there and the protective walls go up. The little scared girl is back. He then makes me feel guilty for shutting down. It is a vicious cycle.

It seems like we take one step forward and three steps back. I know this is part of R but it is still so difficult. When does this even out and get better. So many times I just want to say, "Forget it, it just isnt working"
I know I need to be patient, but how long is too long? I feel myself progressing and surpassing him. I find myself thinking about moving on sometimes, or even thinking we both would be better off going our separate ways. Is this normal progression of the R or is this us growing further and further apart?

je

As you change your ways of interacting, there are bound to be problems. You will need to toughen up, and if you request something and he responds like he did, then you need to discuss it. Let him know that it hurts you, and ask what is going on with him.

As far as the NC letter, I wouldn't worry about it. Your husband has done this the MB way, and I think that is an excellent sign. I really thought he was going to put it off.

Well believer he did put if off for quite some time. 9 months since dday...but I am glad that he even did it. It shows that maybe he is starting to work on the M and I am proud of him. I did tell him that for sure. I think it made him feel pretty good..lol


He did tell me about getting upset. This might get a little graphic for here..not sure..
I was trying to explain to him that when he touches me it is very cold..in that he pats me like a dog. I do not feel loved during SF. It is just, OS for him, hop on top, done. Then after I am the one to cuddle him, or he gets close to me and literally pats me like a dog, even scratching. It does not feel good, and I would rather not even cuddle. I was showing him with my hands on his back, caressing, lightly touching, how to show you care with your hands. Even a kiss from him is like a peck on the lips. Not deep and passionate. I was trying to show him that I do care, and how I show with my hands and mouth. Not words, but action in my eyes. He asked me to show him how to do this and I did. I also hugged him tightly, rested his head on my chest, and held his head as a mother would. I asked him if he felt safe with this, he said yes very safe. I told him, that is how I would like to feel. I think he took it wrong, withdrew, and huffed. I felt belittled and in no way safe at that point.
I let him know I was hurt. I told him I work on the abuse stuff everyday. It is part of who I am. He apologized and wanted to try again. I just could not.
I do not enjoy SF most of the time,I loathe it at times, unless I have most of the control. I am trying to show him how to help me feel safe during it, so that I can let go of the control, but he gets angry which sends me realing...
Seems like a no win situation sometimes in regards to SF.

Hope you read the whole sex thread on the EN forum. Very interesting.

Well, you have been honest with him. Let's see if he learns anything. Although part of the stuff you are talking about is more like a female than a man. Most men I've been with haven't been that great in the sack. I've learned how to make do, with lots of practice. Now all they have to do is show up.

"Now all they have to do is show up." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
LOL Believer.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I soo know that one. That is why I have questioned my own sexuality many times lately in the whole fix me phase I have been in. I so want to feel safe sexually and havent for many, many years, if ever. But if the M does not work out, I for one know I will at least try that approach.
Je

Your sexuality is probably just fine. Men will never be like women. They really can't help it. I think we have to look for the safe and nurturing, holding stuff through our women friends.

JE

this is pretty hard time for both of you. I know that I was very inhibited in SF for a while, and that my H also went through times where he had absolutely no desire for me.
It really is a emotional roller coaster.

I dont think there are any magical resolutions it takes time, patience, and somtimes both of you have to just take a deep breath and try again.

What is very important is to try & keep the channels of communication open. And yes its VERY hard to talk about what pleases you - I mean it sounds stupid but it is so hard. Maybe its our culture & religious educations from kids, probably is for me.

I do think you both will need a good MC and after the first one was so bad its kinda hard to jump into a new MC session. Have you read the section here on the MB forum about finding a GOOD MC for you both?


Here is the link
How to find a good MC

I do see great hope here JE, that your H is willing to follow MB principals is great. It shows he is willing to commit to working on the M, though of course expect him & yourself to balk at some things, thats natural and thats where a MC can help you both work through those road blocks.

And remember to vent here NOT at each other. However expect that at times you will both have a few yelling sessions.. we are not super human are we?

In my prayers

Believer, I read it all and posted but look out. I posted on pleasing part and its graphic...lol..hoping like heck that lostone doesnt see it...lol...he will die...

AW,
I am so happy that he is making some progress. I am trying to keep my spirits up, and wait. The waiting is soo difficult. I wish I was superhuman sometimes. When I triggered on last Friday, I not only felt horrible, I felt horrible for him. He took it all personal, yes he had the A, but the trigger was mine to own. I am getting better at dealing with them, that one just through me thru a loop.
I do tell him all the time where I see his improvement. So he gets some praises along the way. I thanked him for the NC letter. I know it was for me, but in a small way it was for him too.
He still cringes when he hears her name. Still withdraws at times when the word A comes up. I am going slow, yet still need some peices to the puzzle for my brain. It is usually once a week or so. Not daily like it was the first 2 weeks after dday. So for him the letter had her name on it, he looked up her addy at work, put her name on the envelope and handed it to me. That was big for me.
The steps forward give me a small sense of what might be, but the steps back send me reeling, and I question the M alot to myself.
I really do not yell or vent to him. Havent since way before dday. That I did get from MC. That was all I got, but I also learned how to avoid all confrontations, and I need to learn how to re-engage sometimes. I think I was so withdrawn for so long, I dont want to come out.
Everything with me is, as a matter of fact, like. On dday, I did not yell, scream, etc. I just said, get out in a plain tone. Then when he moved back, it was the same. I may have shed a tear or 2, but no venting, nothing. I am sort of detached still.
Like if I do argue with him, I feel like that will send him back into her arms. It will all take time for us both. He wanted a quick fix, sweep it under the rug, etc. I want a peaceful solution...peaceful to R or peaceful D. Make sense? Is this wrong of me too?

I am going to bed. But will look at the good MC tomorrow when my head is rested. Pain in the back and pain meds are making me foggy and rambling...thanks all
JE

FWH and I had a lenghty, and healthy chat for 6 hours last night. Not all chatting of course, but it did wonders for him and myself I think.
Some questions were answered, others not answered, new ones came up. This is progress, I see it and I like it.

I also have looked into MC and the Harleys. 185.00 an hour with the harleys. I know my insurance covered it 2 years ago, now reading the stuff from the Harleys I wonder what that darn MC from heck put as my diagnosis..lol <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
I think I would like to go the Harley approach. I will approach with POJA with FWH and see his thoughts. Any idea of length of time. I could swing the 185 a month, but surely not weekly, unless I dont feed the kids.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> 1200 is quoted from the website, and the homework looks promising to me. That keeps us both on track, makes us accountable and getting a kinda report card at the end with suggestions.

Well just updating or maybe journaling...who know..
JE

I've seen people who only had one or two sessions who said it meant everything to their recovery.

Thanks B. Love your post, I am learning a whole lot right now.
I hope he is in for it. I am impatient, I know that..lol
But he tends to drag his feet, if you couldnt tell..
I will chat with him this week.
We are both taking a week off from work to spend with the kids on a couple of days, and to just spend with each other too. Just trying to figure out recreational stuff is soo hard. We truly have no common interests when it comes to that area.
We even went over all the ones in the book, and laughed. We thought maybe trying basketweaving??LOL
JE

JE,

Can I ask you a question. I want you to think about this alot. It has to do with what I am talking to your H about, but I see it may apply to you as well.

Let's consider something pretty hypothetical right now. Let's say your H came to you and said "JE, here I am, anything you want to know, I will tell you. Anything you want me to do I will do. If you want to know how I am feeling or thinking, it is yours for the asking. In short, I am placing my heart, my insecurities, my fears in YOUR hands."

My question to you is could you handle it, if you had that responsibility and that openness. If you had him completely at your mercy, what would you do?

By the way, I was very impressed on your discussion about showing him what you need. Please under NO circumstances stop doing this. He has to learn many things and only you can teach him, and yes you two will trip over each other from time to time, but I am betting he is still thinking about what you were showing him. DO NOT STOP THIS. He will come to understand that this is NOT an attack on him, but you simply opening up to him. You both will benefit.

God Bless,

JL

JL,
Very good questions. I have thought and thought about this for a long time, you worded it better than I ever could, but the meaning is there.
If he came to me and said I am placing my heart, my insecurities and my fears in your hands, I would embrace that. Meaning, I would hear, listen, comfort, guide, hold his hand, be there for him.
If I had the responsibility and his openess, him at "my mercy" what would I do? I would embrace the openess, show acceptance and understanding. I would praise that openess and foster it as best I could. I would in a sense protect him from the fears and help him face them, be unjudgemental and accepting without taking control of the situation, soothing and comforting, and help him as best I could.

I have done exactly what you asked of me, in reverse to him. I have opened a book (my life) to him, I opened my heart, have forgiven him for the A, and want him to be there for me, as I want to be for him. I have done this before however. This A is not all of the picture. I do still fear him, but am willing to face that fear, forgiving the past. I have laid down my walls, the walls that have protected the little girl from harm all these years, to let him in again. I have asked for understanding and forgiveness from him for my part in the A.
My abuse as a child has driven my life many times. I had to let my walls and my coping drive me. I was not able to take the lead many times. In that, I learned how to in my eyes, protect him from my pain. I many times tried to ask him for help, protection, comfort, etc. and he shut me out and even caused more harm. After doing this twice in the M, I gave up. I knew he did not want to hear it, he refused to accept that for the rest of my life, this will always be part of who I am. When the WS says things like if they could go back in time to stop it, or have a magic wand to wash it away, I know that feeling. I wanted many times to ignore it, wash it away, go back and change it. I refused to accept that part of my life. Then I, through IC and reading alot, that I cannot change it. It is part of me and will always be part of me. I grew up with never hearing "I love you" not once. I was told I was fat, lazy, worthless, ugly, a slut that asked for it. I was physically abuse from my own mother for my entire life. These parts of me, that I deal with daily, are parts he has refused to accept and understand. Since DDAY I have opened up my world to him again. He continues to chose to push that part of me away. The pain and the hurt I am experiencing from the A, he has pushed away or turned to his benefit.
I am here for him. I see his pain and so much want to help him. I know I cant fix it for him, but I am willing to understand and accept that as part of him. Part of a learning process, part of the whole him, that he will never forget. His past 2 marriages, his parents both dying in 6 months, his childhood; all are part of who he is. I want to be there for him, listen, comfort, understand, guide. All of these things, that I so want for myself, I want for him.

But with that said, I have to add. I am still very fearful of his rejection. I will live through it, but it still hurts. When he doesnt open up to me, or pushes my pain away, he in a sense is rejecting me. I am also fighting a battle within myself. I knew how much I loved him. Even after dday and prior to that, I loved him. But as I sit here with tears in my eyes, I know that the love that I had has dwindled and faded. I let that happen. I let him in so many times, to be shut down, pushed away, minimized, rejected, taken for granted. I have for the last time, let him in. I know that this is it. I cannot do this again. I expect bumps along the way, I do not expect perfection. I do expect an equal partner, one that takes my needs and feelings and experience and incorporates that into his life, his world.

Sorry its so long.
JE

JE,

I asked you these questions for many reasons. One of them may seem very very odd to you. ANd I will admit it is based on knowing you were abused as a child, and knowing that you two are quite abit apart in age. This whole thing seems to me to be complicated by competing issues and I know I am not qualified to address them. Hence I am bring this up for you talk with your counselors.

I think part of the problem is that you see him as your protector and he sees you as someone to protect. I think another part of the problem is that he has a hard time facing how deeply you have been hurt in your childhood and thus closes himself off to you. I think another part is that HE needs your support and help but fears it is too much for you to handle in addition to everything else. I think you want and are an adult, but in other ways you are still that child that was so horribly abused.

I would also bet his A, had to do with his insecurities and NOT a failure on your part, other than he has a hard time seeing you as someone he could depend on due to his view of you as someone that needs to be protected.

Do you see the conflicting things going on here. Now if I am at all correct, none of this is a show stopper. What it would take is a different perspective of each other and yourselves. I know the man loves you deeply. I know from your words you fear him hurting you, and thus you have allowed the "in-love" feelings to dwindle. But, those feelings can be rekindled because deep down you have stayed true to your word to "love" the man as in the verb to love. I think oddly he has done the same, but has been deeply confused about many things including himself.

He has a lot to learn yet JE, but one of the things he needs to learn is that YOU are capable of protecting him. That is a role he has never seen you in. Yet, it seems you are a mature woman with children and you are addressing your childhood abuse issues. Thus you are now capable of being someone HE could lean on and trust.

I think if you have patience and you focus on being the woman you are and as you show him your strength, things will change as he changes his perspective. I don't feel I should tell you what he and I have been talking about, but perhaps sometime he will tell you. I do like your answers to my questions and I hope you continue to focus on them.

I think what you are looking for is a man to love, not just a man who loves you. If I am right, and he does the things he knows he should do, you might just have that man.

God Bless,

JL

Thank you JL!
I think you hit alot of issues right on. I have many times felt that he treats me like a child. Not like a little kid, but childlike. He was in a sense my father figure when we married. I didnt know that then, but when in IC that is the very thing that I discovered. I did not have a father, he died when I was 3. My step dad was one of the sexual abusers and I feared him. So in effect, when my FWH came along and I at the ripe age of 17, he was 34. He was in a way my parent, and being such the age difference was what my IC told me would be typical. I had no control as a little girl, and it continued during my marriage. He was very controlling and sometimes not real nice. But I only knew that type of life. When I went to nursing school a whole new world opened up for me. I had to learn to think on my feet, to be an adult, and responsible for another person. Yes, I was a mother at this time, but it was very different.
From that point on our arguements started. I was not the person he married. Nope, I grew up and became an adult. He despised that, I was no longer dependant on him. We separated shortly after that. I moved back home with the kids. He said some very cruel things. I know in my heart that he cheated on me then, but never stayed to get the proof. We worked it out, kinda a 7 month plan B, then R.
Things were great until the beginning of his LTA. Then it was back to square one again, and continued for 2 years. Then dday. And 9 months later, I think it is still an issue.
I have grown even more since dday. He has not accepted that I am an adult and can be an equal partner. I am willing to be an equal, put his needs with mine, but I am not so sure he will get there.
I will add that I know in 1991 he cheated on me. He will not admit this. He came home from Kuwait with condoms. We both were sterilized (spayed and neutered) lol. There was no reason for him to have condoms. That was the first time I got the I love you but.... I was young and did not understand it. I also know in 1997 or so he cheated then. I have no condom or calls but I just know that now.
He cheated on his second wife. He was engaged to someone when he met and slept with me, so I am an OP. I did not know that...so no 2x4s please. I found out after marrying him about the woman and found out about him cheating on his 2nd wife after dday.
SO it is with that said that I have very high hopes. I have done what I think I can for me and the M. It is his turn to step up, show that he can do this. I will support him, I will protect him, but I will not let myself become that little girl again. I just cannot do that.
I do want a person to love. A person to share my life with.
I just am so unsure if my FWH is that person. I hope he is.
JE

JE,

The last thing you need or he needs really is for you to become that little girl again. So don't worry I am not suggesting that you do. What he will need to recognize that it is to HIS advantage to be married to a grown woman that loves him and who he loves and cherishes as well. Will he? I think there is a good chance. But, it will take a little time.

One thing to remember is that your issues messed with this whole thing abit, and HIS issues surely messed with this thing a lot. One of the more interesting issues is that as we get older we tend to NOT like change. I think there is a reason for this and it is called FEAR. I doubt you see your H this way, but I would bet good money he FEARS you leaving him, he FEARS that the changes in you will challenge his position in the family, and he FEARS you will come to understand his failings as a father, an H, and a man. With age comes insight, and often that insight is not pretty. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Now given what I have said, and assuming something I have said is right, you can see that recovery for you and your H is a fine line. You need to establish that you are a adult and can take care of yourself. Yet, he FEARS you won't need him and if you don't need him what use is he to you? So on the same line he needs to see his role in your life and the children's life.

Ultimately a balance must be struck by you and by him, about how much you depend on one another, and how much you support one another, and how much you lead one another. Sounds complicated right, well it is and it is not. So have faith in yourself and him that he will "get it". Just give it time.

God Bless,

JL

Thank you again JL.
Do you know us? Are we related....or like B are you in my mind somewhere? LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
You seem to know exactly what is going on with me and seem to have hit his stuff on the head. So yes not just something you said, but everything you said is right on the money again.
Are you a MC? If not, may I suggest to you that you do. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Thank you.
JE

hey-hey JE - He's a physicist. I always thought he was an MC too.

Shhhh Beleiver,

Now she will never talk with me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Do you know what scientists do? We look for patterns, see if we can understand what causes what, then concoct theories and test them. Very much like being on this site. No one is right often, but the patterns lead us to the right area code anyway. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

JE, if you read here for as long as Believer and I have been reading here, you will see the patterns. I truely think the patterns of your relationship suggest that it can work and be very rewarding for both of you. Your H is going to have to see the "win" in changing, but I think you are up to the task.

God Bless,

JL

LOL
I will still talk to you. LOL
I see the pattern for sure with us. I know I am up for it, I just happen to be rather impatient sometimes if you can tell...
Think you might want to become a MC, cause it seems we might be looking for one, and you have impressed FWH so much he had me read your post to him...that is a first. Not the other posts or his response, but your post. He had tears in his eyes and was amazed. You are impressive.
B- Love ya hun, you are impressive too...
JE

JL just seems to really look at things. I'm always amazed by his insight.

He is amazing. Kinda like you. I swear after IC and early MC, no one has gotten it right on the head like that.
WOW.
I have to keep rereading and rereading it to process and make sure it stays in the memory banks.
JE

Well we are all off as a family today. Going to the movies, shopping at the mall and to dinner.
4 teenagers and 2 crazy adults, this should be a trip to remember..LOL
Wish us luck.
JE

Hope you have/had fun JE.

JL

Well were back. Had a great time with the kids shopping and eating, but the movie was awful. We all left saying the same thing...LOL

We are going skiing as a family on thursday. That will be great I am sure. Of course I wont be able to ski because of my back issues, but I will sit in the lodge and reread one of the harley books.

JE

Good to hear that. Lots of progress is being made on the other thread.

Believer,
I am seeing some of the progress. I am impatient, and after 9 months of waiting for him to come around I am seeing the results.
I say to myself on every good day, this is what it will be like. This is a preview to the type of marriage that we should have had all along.
I know there will be bumps, sometimes big ones, but I am hopeful for what is to come. He has been so attentive, so caring. I cant help myself sometimes with my BS way of thinking. When is the other shoe going to drop? How long can he keep up this act? etc. but I try to push those thoughts aside and focus on today. Even if the M ends at some point and time, I know that the past "todays" of good times will always be with me.
JE

I have another question. I have fought with myself with this one for quite some time.

When DDAY happened, I kicked FWH out. When he was packing and leaving, he explained to the kids that we were taking a little time away, he had done something wrong, and that I asked him to leave.
My 16 year old son at that time, immediately knew what he had done. The 3 girls however did not. My DS is a wonderful, smart, caring, and bright boy. When I stayed outside while FWH said his goodbyes to the kids, DS came out and said "Who was he Fing" now mind you this is a boy that has never before or sinced cussed in front of me. DS then went on to say that we didnt need him, he was an angry mean SOB, and that he (DS) would help with the bills.
The girls however got angry at me. They blamed me for kicking daddy out. I was the bad guy. I chose to take the hit for that, and just stated that we were having problems with each other, and that it was not thier fault.
A few days later, I talked with all 4 of the kids, and asked if they wanted to have FWH come back home. The girls had a resounding YES! DS was closed mouthed and asked if that was what I wanted. I explained that I wanted us to be a family, and that I wanted them to have thier father back. He agreed with the girls, yet was reluctant.
FWH chatted for hours in the car, and it was agreed that he would come back to be thier father, not my husband. WE agreed to live that way.
Now, I never did expose to many. MY sister, DS, and a few of my friend are the only ones. His parents are both deceased, his friends were all in on the A from his work and never told me, and the MOW claimed for the entire 2 years of thier LTA that her H was a WH and they were divorcing. But FWH never went to her house, not once. They met elsewhere. Even used MOWs adult daughters apt. many times.
Should I now, being so far out from dday, expose to MOWs spouse?
And the next question is hard. We have and read the Harley books, in that they are in the home. We are both on MB site. The girls see this and have asked me a question once and a while, but they have never been told about the A at all. The kids and I have always been very open with each other, especially since FWH during most of the M was nota a big part of thier lives. He was here, or on deployment, or away at school but he was always distant from them since thier birth. They knew we were having problems, but not any more literally than that. Should they be told?
I feel like I am constantly lying to them, and our relationships have suffered. I want to do right by them. This is the one thing that eats at me alot of the time. I have always been an open book to them and they to me. That is a big part of why I think they are such great kids. Never one problem, until after dday. Now our DD 15 just recently started AD and had been cutting herself. This within the last 4 months. Now DD 14 is angry alot. She has withdrawn a little, and seems to smart off for no reason.
Now I know they are teens, but this is out of character for them. In that, I know a typical teen will smart off, but hers is to the core anger. Is this part of the teen peer pressure, hormonal thing? Or could it be part of my skirting around the M issues that has hurt them?
JE

Just bumping for replys...
JE

I'm still thinking about this one....... You don't think your son has said anything?

No I am sure he has not. He and I have talked about it twice since dday and he has not told anyone.
I know it is hard, that is why I have not said anything. I was in total shock at first, then in withdrawl for a long time, now I want to recover not only the M but my family too.
Je

What does your husband think?

I'm concerned about the cutting. Glad she is getting help.

I have not broached it with him. I figured I would check here with you all first, then approach him about it. Exposure was a big deal to him.
JE

JE,

Of all of the people you should pay attention to and discuss this with it is your H. I am fairly sure your daughters have a clue about what is going on, and that mixed with the usual but very annoying behavior of 14 and 15 year olds will cause a mess.

I would suggest talking to your H about this and then perhaps have him talk with your son for sure, and perhaps the daughters depending on what you two decide. If you can speak with a counselor about this sort of thing and see if the counselor can offer some tips.

For your information radical honesty is between spouses not necessarily the kids. However, lying to them is NOT a good idea. This is a hard call, you need to talk with your H and come up with a plan.

God Bless,

JL

Ok I will do that. I just feel like this is pushing him a little when he seems rather vulnerable and taking so much personal. I will update after speaking with him
JE

Well I chatted with FWH and he decided it was for sure the right thing to do. He called them all to the kitchen and we had a wonderful family chat/discovery evening.
Each one spoke thier mind about what happened. The girls did not have a clue about the A. They knew we were working on the M, as we did tell them we were having marriage problems.
DS 17 Said that we all have to live with our choices. That from those choices comes either good or bad. He is hoping for the good to come.
DD 15 Said that the one thing she has lost from his A is respect for him. That what he did to me and them hurts, and she has no respect for him.
DD 14 twin A chose not to reply at all
DD 14 twin B asked about length, time, and how could he chose to "remarry" me when he was with someone else

Also DD 15 finally with this chat, came out and told her 2 sisters and brother that she was depressed and on AD. It was her wish a few months ago when she started AD and counseling that they not know. She didnt want them to think she was crazy or tease her. We honored her wishes. Last night she came clean.

DS 17 also said that he was depressed in 7th grade(But not suicidal)because of the boys in school. He told us he is not anymore and doing great.

DD14 twins, chose not to reveal anything, dd14 twin A denys depression.

Well that is how it went. Quite well in my opinion. We all shed tears, hugged and made a committment to each other to spend one night a week as a family chatting and doing fun stuff.
JE

do you folks understand what "cutting" is all about? Don't get me wrong -I do realize that in some instances it is for attention...But in others...most, in fact, are an attempt to "replace" some pain that they are experiencing. You know, thinking that if thier arm hurts because of the cuts they made, they will be able to "fade out" the original pain. I have a niece who does this. She discloses to my teenage daughter, and since we are close, my daughter shares with me. It's a very complex issue. I think your "cutter" needs to see a therapist -and soon. My niece has progressed from that to very "dark" thoughts and such. She has a "xanga" that I visit occasionally, and the stuff I read on her journal...gosh. I know that with all that you are already dealing with (i.e. this place we have all met eachother at) it's got to be hard to consider dealing with something ELSE. However, a teenager can veer WAY off course amazingly fast, and it is in cases such as these that we see grieving families, dealing with losing a child to suicide. Things got out of control for those kids before thier parents were able to get ahold of the reins, and...BOOM...they're gone. If she's cutting and you KNOW about it, at least you have the benefit of that. At the very least, until you can get it together, keep her close.
Ahhhhh. If only all WS's realized that their selfishness causes endless suffering that travels great distances, maybe we wouldn't see so many 2nd & 3rd timers here. I wonder if your FWS would have chosen a different path (than to have A) had he been able to see into the future that this kid would start cutting as an incidental result of his A. I wonder how many WS's would try to deflect any accountability for that? Hmmmm, something to ponder, for me, anyway.
Luv ya girl. You guys are gonna be ok.

I forgot to add this to the above:

I was told by the counselor at the school, whom told me about my daughters depression, that an anon. source told her that my DD15 was cutting herself. My DD denies this. She has explained the whole depression, talked to her counselor (paid one not school one) and that counselor told me that she was not cutting. DD showed me her body too, and as a nurse, I can tell you she is not and has not.
It bothered DD to no end that the school counselor said that, and that she has been under scrutiny for it. Her depression is a true chemical problem, as is my FWH. She said that the marriage problems added, but told her dad and I that it was not the reason. She had been feeling depressed for 5 months before May. She just thought she would get over it, but didnt. She also was not suicidal, more like wondering if she died in her sleep would it be better, but no plan and no desire to end it all. She has been open with me since the day her and I went to the first dr.s appt and counselling session. When she feels down she tells me, when she is up she tells me. Last night is when she let us know that she does not cut, and the counselor had called to end sessions. Counselor said she was a wonderful kid and doing very well. Hopefully that helps a little with the depression areas.
JE

oh, that's a relief. I've had so much else to deal with ALONG with the healing, the healing takes a back seat every time. We've had some problems with our daughters as a result of the whole A thing. It's very frustrating to not be able to focus on our recovery. I'm so glad that you can. When I look at your posts and at his posts, I feel envious of the effort that you are making as a couple and as a team. It's wonderful.
I'm so happy for you...and that makes ME hopeful.

Monica,
I am getting there and so is he. We still have many mountians to climb. I am quite impatient and he happens to be rather slow. Doesnt always work well and I have to learn how to be patient.
You should be hopeful. This MB thing is amazing. We really were not heading anywhere at all until he came on here, now it is going in a forward motion. I think that many marriages could be saved with this site/info. I have high hopes for you and you H.
Keep me updated. I will help if I can or at least be a shoulder for you. Love ya.
JE

New question/vent?

When will this man ever get it?
Transparency- failure
Radical Honesty - failure
No LB- failure

When we went skiing with the kids, I did not want to go along. I am in alot of pain all the time. With new diagnosis of scoliosis and severe back pain between my shoulder blade, I did not want to ruin thier fun. But to spend time I agreed to go. Now I had no clue where this ski place was. I asked FWH where it was. He answers west of here. Ok I am female, I get that and have no clue where west or east of here is. Well we are driving and come up to the town OW lives in, and my stomach immediately wanted to heave. Then we get to pass right where she is working! I was sick and hurt. He knew where we had to go through to get there and chose not to tell me.
Then when DDay happened we agreed no more internet and no more separate email for him. He was addicted to porn on the internet, met OW on adultfriendfinders and had internet EA prior to PA. Now I find out he is back on the internet work for the third time since dday. Each time he promises no more. Then he is back on again. We talked about internet for MB and I agreed fully. But did not agree to free pass to internet and never would. That is one arena I do not think I will ever let go in. He was so addicted to the internet he would eat his meals in front of the computer and stay up late to be on there.
Since being on the internet with MB I was ok with internet for that. I will walk in an see how he is when posting, and he quickly closes the screen he is on then pops up MB and he has not even logged on to MB yet. When I ask him about it, he tells me he was just reading the posts. I then ask, ok what post were you reading? He responds, well none yet.

I am so ticked right now. He walks in a little while agof from work, looking weird. Stares at me, acts all innocent and kisses my cheek. That is the look and feel I got when he came home from work before when he was deep in the A. Now he is on MB because I asked when the last time he read and posted.
I just want to scream at him and LB like crazy. I wont but wanted to vent here to make me feel a little better.
Any ideas or suggestions?
JE

bump

Well after once again promising not to go on the internet, especially at work he calls to tell me he HAD to access it to activate his cell phone. Now am I being to controlling? I feel that a promise was made and never kept.
To go on again after VOWING 2 days ago to(once again) NEVER do it, then today he is back at it. I dont think he would have told me either. The cell phones are in my name. I have a verizon wireless accout to access and pay bills. To activate you have to know user name and password. He did not know them, and tried to access anyway and it got locked out. SO he called to ask. I got on it while on the phone with him and saw that it was locked out due to him trying to access it at work. So he came clean. But I feel he did because I would have known when I logged on to pay the bill or check the calls.
I am quite frustrated with this whole mess. I feel like a doormat and am no way going to go back there.
Am I wrong? Am I controlling to much? Should I allow free internet access to him when he continues to do these things?
JE

JE---let some of us work on him on his thread...he may come home with a bruise---i kinda just 2x4'd him!

Thank you Nikko, I am about done here. I dont think I can take much more.
But as ARK said in his post, I am trying like heck to be still.
JE

back off everything...friend and hubby.....

when a good friend of mine went through a second d-day---it rocked me so bad and i took it all out on my poor hubby who didnt do a darn thing....boy was he confused what the ****** was going on....lol

I have not taken it out on him. I have talked openly with him. He even asked to go to her to comfort her. I explained that in a BS mind, right now he is an enemy. I told her about him wanting to help, she got teary, and said to tell him thank you.
I am separating him from A stuff in a sense. I asked if he would talk to WH. He said, in WH state, no amount of talking would help. I get that now.
I will be careful. This did bring some issues up for me, but they were there anyway. But I do see your point. I will limit all of it as much as possible. Thank you Nikko.
Je

praying for you......

now, let me go check his thread....lol
i dont think he's gonna like me much right now.....i at one point became known to one very famous wh on here as his human hemmoriod....and in the end i was right and he finally got it. lets pray......lol

I am definately praying. Human hemorrhoid that is a good one. I really thought JL was getting to him, but with 4 days or so of no posts he slips right back to the old lostone...
I will keep trying to be still. And know he will have bumps. Thanks.
JE

it takes time....my hubby took yrs to get it....man was that hard. but i didnt give up. men can be so stubborn.lol did he give you the hug i sent ya????lol

just be still and let mb's work on him a bit.....find peace somewhere and give it some space and time.....its not a sprint...its a marathon....

just checking in on you---how ya doing??? i heard ya got a rose?

How the heck are you? Are you relaxing and recouping?
I am quite fine. Yes I did get a rose, and I thanked him and kissed him for it. I did give it away though and he is not real happy. He knows how allergic I am to them. I have severe allergies, from sniffels to headaches to anaphalatic reactions. The flowers especially a rose gives me a whopping headache. I know it was the thought, and I did thank him and I paid for lunch...LOL
Got my braces off today, and made a major life change too!!
FWH and I POJA'd and I am now going to be a SAHM! I have worked since I was 14 years old. But with breeding the dogs, I can now let the dogs pay for me to stay home with them and the kids. This places HUGE amounts of trust in him and I let him know that. No baby step there, a gaint leap.
When I was a SAHM for 2 years in our marriage, he LB'd constantly. He would remind me how HE PAID THE BILLS, HE MADE THE MONEY, etc. I let him know that would not be acceptable.
We weighed the good and the bad. With him working 3-11 and me 7-3, we do not see each other more than 5 hours a week on average. With me not working, the 15 hours a week will not be a problem. Financially we just have to not go nuts, and keep it locked down.
I can still pick up shifts if I want to or need to also. SO I told the owner today, and gave a 4 week notice. As he says I am required to being a dept. head, so I dont want to burn bridges, and will honor that.
I am scared to death now that he may leave me high and dry, but being a nurse I can just get another job. No biggy but maybe it will boost his EGO. LOL
JE

Wow, JE - Sounds good. If you need to pick up some money now and then, maybe you could do some private duty nursing. I have a friend that does it, and she picks her own hours and jobs, and really loves it.

I think I might do that, or work for hospice. They have been begging for me to come to them for 3 years now. I just get tooo attached. But maybe once in a while would be ok.
I hope this works.
JE

Keep good records on your dog business. You can deduct expenses from income as long as you are trying to make a profit. That might lower your family tax bill. Check with a tax accountant.

My friend had 2 of her patients leave her real estate in their will! She is a loving and comforting person, and always works as much as she wants.

I will do that for sure ( the dog records)
My goal in life in regards to working has been to own a kennel, show my dogs, and breed. So this is a step in that direction for sure.
FWH has been very supportive and kind this week. He is currently reading Every Mans Battle. The rose he gave me was great. We talked and kissed, etc. I think he was hurt by me giving it away. It was not my intentions, I just cannot truly be around them. I gave it to a friend of both of ours whose hubby has cheated on her. She loves them and grows them.
I would like to stay connected to nursing, just not the paper work part of nursing. Nursing Homes have way to many rules, and regs to prevent you from sitting on the side of the bed, and chatting with the patients, not enough time etc. I want to be a real nurse, and give holistic care like I was taught in school. Fantasy land I am sure, but worth a try...LOL
How are you B?
I missed you, hope you were happily busy
JE

Things are going fine with me. I was a bit taken aback when WH wanted to come home, but have recovered from that shock.

hey you towo.....i am praying for you both!!!

je---wow, that is great news! what breed do you handle?
i am trying with hubby---he reminds me in a lot of ways of my hubby...slow on the recovery end but with good intentions. not too much bs will fly with me before i whack him!!LOL just keep posting whats going on....how you feel and we will help guide him.

B---take your time and breathe. lots of input on what you should do with YOUR life....you decide chicca...you've earned it.

Believer,
Well like Dr. Harley and you said, they do eventually end thier A..I think "a bit taken aback" might me a little understatement LOL = shocked LOL

Nikko.
I will keep posting. Last night was great. We watched a movie together, baked cookies and snacked on them, and this morning a wonderful love note...Thank you.
I have Yorkshire Terriers and Bichon Frise, I also show and breed Bengal cats, well just show them right now, have not bred them just yet...
JE

im glad you had a good night...sounds wonderful....just remember....your way ahead of him on recovery...knowing what needs to be done and such....be patient. he seems to be trying....that alone is huge. he'll get there...but expect bumps. we all have them.

my brother has a yorkie....he's such a nut! i love him. me i have a rat terrier and a dobie. my first love was my chow. his grandfather was the chow that won westminster years ago....i miss him.

All yorkies are nutty. That is why I love them so much. Only drawback is the grooming. Lots of time to groom them, bathing, brushing, etc.
You should have a dobie and a minpin...look alikes but rat terriers are close enough LOL
I have never been a chow fan. I worked as a Vet tech for years, and never met one I liked. But chow owners stand by them.
JE

you would have loved leo-----my vet and all his techs loved him....he was the most well behaved chow you ever wanted to meet. not a mean bone in him...unless ya wanted to hurt me though....lol

Nikko - My beloved Pitbull is named Leo too. If you remember, we took care of him for 2 years when his owner was having an affair. Now the family is back together, and the kids wanted Leo back. I was heartbroken - but did insist on visitation.

Well talk about idiots. I know I am not on Idiotville, But this one tops it all.
I sold a Lady a teacup Yorkie. Now this little girl is 3 months old and weighs 1.2 pounds. I sold her this dog 10 days ago at 10 weeks and she weighed in at exactly a pound. This idiot calls me this afternoon at 4 pm. The dog is lethargic and shaky. I ask many questions, all of which are a no. Is she cold, have diarrhea, etc? NO to all. So I tell her to give her the Nutrical I sent with the pup incase of these things. SO she gives her some and nothing. I tell her to bring the dog over immediately. I then call my vet. and ask if she will stay late till I get there, of course she says yes.
When the pup gets here she is unclean, matted, and obviously dehydrated. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> She couldnt even stand. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />I ask her when the last time she had water, she says well I gave her a bowl this morning at 6am, and I got home at 4 pm, she barely touched it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Now I had asked her on the phone if she had eaten, drank etc and she said of course.
So I rush this poor thing to the vet, and my vet immediately gives her subQ fluids, she was so dehydrated and tiny should couldnt even find a vein in her neck.
I am quite ticked at this point. When I sell a teacup there are many rules: NO kids, other dogs, and you must be able to keep this dog with you for the first 6 months of its life. She agreed to all of this. Now I find out not only does she have a kid, but she cannot take the dog to work, and she has a SAINT BERNARD!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
Now its 1135 pm, the pup is great. She is running around, I bathed her, and she is looking like the same puppy I sold her just 10 days ago. I just dont know what to do now though. She loves the dog, but lied to me. I did not have that stuff in my contract about the teacups. SO I have to give her back the dog and I dont want to. These are like my kids, born here, raised here till 10 weeks and vet checked prior to leaving. I did my part.
It just ticks me off that she lied and did not follow my typed out instructions for teacups. They are quite fragile until they are at least 6 months old. This dog will mature around 3 pounds.
Well enough of my ranting, people just irritate me sometimes. New rules will be set in stone or she does not get the dog back, period. And I have learned another valuable lesson, put it all in writing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
JE

dont just put it in writing...insist on a home visit to prospective parents!!!! (im sorry, im about to sound harsh.....) this was your responsibility as a "mom" to do. you have to check out the people you adopt out to.....you didnt. now you have little recourse im afraid. i understand what you mean....my baby was so tiny when we got her....she was with me at all times....

maybe she will want a refund and not the dog...offer it and be done with her!

Nikko,
I made the mistake of thinking if someone can pay 1500.00 for a puppy, filled out a questionaire(copied from humane society), and looked honest to trust them. This woman even came here an hour and a half away and visited her puppy from birth to 10 weeks every week. She looked honest and like an excellent home. It is hard to do home visits when alot of my sales go to out of state homes. But for now on I will have all of that in my contract.
I do state that I do not pay for vet bills, but I am for this little girl. Even though I am not at fault. I already tried the refund and it was no way.
The pup goes back this am to the vet to make sure she is ok and have blood work done. Then I will call her and we will definately be chatting big time.
Like I said, valuable lesson learned. No more Mrs. Nice Guy for sure.
JE

I was reading on fake R. How do you know if you are in a fake R?

I ask this because of a few things but I will leave him out of it and focus on me.

FWH had ample opportunity and time to confess to the A. He SWORE on a bible and his childrens lives he was not cheating. Had MC even convinced of this, and I felt completely nuts. Now looking back I lost all my self esteem from that, felt like I was a failure for not trusting him and believing him. It took a toll after a year. Then dday hit and I was whirling, thoughts of him with his hand on a bible and swearing on his own flesh and bloods lives to protect the OW and the A. I am not so sure that trust will ever come back. I am not so sure I ever "want" to trust him again or ever will. I have to trust someone to love them.

I spent so much of myself changing a year prior to dday, doing a year of plan A without knowing what it was, becoming a new person. Then after dday dealing with my abuse and the flashbacks and horror of it, and him still taking SF from me. I lost all love for this man. I cannot even say I love you as a person, like I would to a friend or someone in need. That is truly sad IMHO. I feel that I have put in all and more, while he just sits back, makes a few good gestures, and lets it slide back to his old self again.

I sit here and think to myself many things. If I had to chose between a good friend and him, it would be the friend. Like my friend who just found out. I had someone tell me to pull away from that friend and work on the R. I have been thinking about that alot. I will not do that. I will be there for her. My friendship with her means the world to me. To throw that away for him is not acceptable for me right now. Even knowing about my FWHs A, she has been great with him. She does not judge him and never has. Darn I have a hard time even looking at her WH right now.

These things I think are hindering our R from my part. His issues are huge, and just not fast enough for me. I know that is selfish, and I guess I must be this morning. I rarely feel selfish, would rather go with nothing to make sure he has everything he wants. But I have been reexamining things, I do see slow progress, but will he ever be someone I can love and trust again? Should I have to throw away a friendship to work on R knowing the outcome may be D? Even if he makes a few changes, I still have the painful memories of not just the A, but the continued lies, continued protecting of OW, continued betrayal with his broken promises for over 9 months now. I see this and cannot turn the other cheek right now, and probably havent been able to for a while. I do not believe a word he says. I do not like the person he became. I guess that is my confession.
May be just a vent. I am tired and have been up and down most of the night. Maybe I am a little cranky. Who knows?
JE

hey you. Just keep with it. remember, you're waiting for HIM to come around. Keep plan A-ing, and eventually things will come around.
The pain you feel will hang around for an obnoxious length of time. EVERY time you think of HER it will hurt. In time, that will fade...I think.
Luv ya girl.
Monica

I think it is time to be selfish. Don't do everything for him. Let him start making a bigger effort.

I agree. It's like they say, you can only change yourself. He may end up seeing you as too good for him...or maybe he does already...hmmmm. Food for thought.
You all should check out my thread about the other day. "man that was wierd..." about the OW coming to see me tuesday nite...VERY strange feelings after that. (haven't seen her for months at my H's work, then she comes to my HOUSE?) But, alas, many questions have been answered for me, tho my H should have been the one to answer them...still feel better, tho.

Ok here is one more to chomp on. FWH sent NC letter 2 weeks ago. Then about the day she would have gotten the letter came the call from her when no one was home. Nothing for a week. Today a letter comes in from her work removing us from the mailing list etc??? What is that? It was addressed to the ****(our last name) Family. Real weird. Now FWH gets the mail most of the time, so if something came in I wouldnt know it. Kids got it today and I saw the letter. FWH paced and paced as I opened it. He questioned what it said, and I told him we are removed from the mailing list.
No comment from him, just that he wishes she would respect him and not contact.
Just weird to me. Or might be the mood I have been in today.

Monica,
There are so many unaswered questions for me too. FWH tells little and sugarcoats or protects FOW when he tells the story. I wonder if someday she might do that. Who knows.

Believer,
I guess I am asking about a time frame for R. When should I start feeling? I just am starting to think 9 months is quite a while. A year? 2 years? I guess in my selfish day today, I dont want to wait around forever. I am not getting any younger LOL. JK.
JE

JE---sorry, my aprents are here and its been quite hectic.lol

this all takes time sweetie....lots and lots of time....real world answer.....it sucks!!!LOL i hated when people use to post that to me....but i get it now. if he miraculously changed overnight....you still wouldnt trust it. his actions and care of you is going to take quite a bit to change and re-learn.

one question....why are you not counseling with the harleys??? i really think you should find a way to make that happen.......

I didn't recover my marriage, and it took about 18 months for me to start feeling good about things. It takes way longer than we think.

HELLOOO--------je, you out there???? lol

I am here nikko.
How are you? Today is biopsy results? Keep praying for you.
Been up for a few hours, cleaning, folding, now sitting here thinking. Scary thought LOL
JE

and why arent you counseling with the harleys?

I have suggested, and left it there. I am in an I DONT CARE mode right now. Had a bad day heck it happens, and instead of supporting me, he gets all depressed to. He has the codependant book. Read the intro. thinks it is for me?
Is it?
I am waiting regardless on couseling with the harleys. I gave my notice at work, and want to redo finances. We are waiting on Income taxes, when they come in and the money is there, I will broach the subject again with FWH.
Been to MC once and I am quite leary also. I am dragging my feet too. It is both of us, but I take responsibility for my part. I want to be a SAHM for once, I am maybe being selfish, that is a first. But this means so much to me. DS is 17, 1 year left with him in the home. Empty nest thing maybe?? I dont know.
JE

i just beat the ****** out of your hubbyy----please dont make me start on you too....lol. do the harleys.....i did....there is no better. please do this....actually let him do it....you just care for you at the moment.

hubby is not gonna like me soon.....he is exactly like my hubby---i see all the tactics and misdirections and lol's to avoid.....and the "its still all about me"---he isnt fooling me a bit je---this is gonna take a strong person like the harleys to guide you and him through it....there is no magic bullet.....when your hubby finally suggests doing counseling....do it with the harleys. find a way.

I will. I do not see him calling and wanting to but I will for sure if he does that.
I am caring for me right now. I just took a bubble bath, with jets in tub. I feel great. I am going to buy a tanning package this afternoon. I know I am SAD type of person, and last year right after dday I did tan. Not the dark type, just a shade darker than my fish belly white colorand it worked well for me. I am also dieting, but only exercise is Physical therapy for now, per MD and PT. I go to orthopedic surgeon at 245 today, then tanning package to kick these blues. Meds dont work but tanning does.
I am working hard not to try to "fix" him and let him own his chit. I know I used to be a co-dependant or am a recovering one...lol.. but I will beat that. I am worthy and I want and need more. I just dont want to be an its ALL about me kinda person, that is a line I dont think I could ever cross, or ever want to.
Thank you nikko. I think in time he will hear and start to act. I just hope for me it wont be a day late and a dollar short.
JE

Well he heard you nikko and now his knee jerk reaction is to tuck tail and hide. He told me a little about the post, not much, but that he needs to take a week off or so from the boards. I asked him if he thought that is was true what you said to him, and he said yes. He does not want to do counseling either. He never has wanted to, and we have ended up argueing over that, so I withdrew. It was impossible to POJA that one. He went once and doesnt want to go again.
However, you did reach him, which is more than I can say I do most of the time. I had him read a post that sort of sums up how I feel right now. It was not my post so I knew he would read it. He did and immediately said it was ok if I wanted to D. I asked about OW and if he would call her if we went that way. He said probably. That hurt, but I asked for it.
I know that NC has been since Nov. of 2004, but could he still be withdrawing. Or is this a serial cheater thing? Or am I reading way to much into it.
He was open and honest about something he read from every mans battle. He fits in with it. He sees a nice looking womand and undresses her in his mind, then later if having SF may even think about having SF with that person instead of me. This is his thinking at times. I as a woman do not understand it, but it is what he does. Weird.
I made dinner for kids, smells great. Off for a little while to eat. Chat with you soon.
JE

well i posted to him again...ask him to read it before he runs....lol. god he is just like hubby....i think we need more help with him than just me...i wonder if jen and faith would come and try to be softer against my brutal honesty....lol

he can do this and so can you...hang in there and protect yourself....god a bubblebath with jets....less than a month to go for that for me!!!lol---im gonna live in that tub!!!

I am hanging nikko. Hanging tight but my grip keeps getting weak at times and I need to tighten up on it. Each time it takes more and more to tighten it though. I just need to be stronger. I will be. I can do this. For how long, no gaurantees but will fight as long as I possibly can without harming myself in the process.
JE

when ya get week....look over to your left...i am right there next to you....as are sooooo many others. counseling with harley should be a priority.....lets work on that. do what you need to for you to be able to hang on. i gave up soooo many times....but was never quite done.lol i knew he was in there somewhere....i just needed to coax him out of his cave...lol

I looked at the Kubler-Ross stages of grief again today. Did it when I went over abuse issues that were running my life, and now 6 months later I read it again, to put my stages in perspective. It has helped me before to know that I am on the money with my grief process.
With respects to the A I am grieving the loss of many things all at once, as many of us are doing also. Here are my losses as they pertain to me:
Loss of trust in him and myself
Loss of a dream, the vows I took seriously
Loss of respect for him
Loss of the committment
Loss of the person I once loved
Loss of stability
Loss of hope

These are most of what I call the casualities of his choices. I have gone through the stages or most of them for many of these things.
Denial- I have denied, joked, laughed when I should cry, etc.
Anger- not so sure I have finished here or not. I have been angry, still get frustrated at times. Normal though I think
Bargaining- I think that I come back here alot in this grief process. Why? I still hold on once and a while to the old thought process "If I was a better wife/person.." I fluctuate back here when I feel rejected by him. Like this morning, I wanted to make this morning a good morning for him and me. I thought that by waking him up, with touches, hugs, smiles and kissing, that it may start the day off right for him and I. Well that may have been my unreal expectations, and in the process I got hurt. However, I am ok with that. I wanted to show how much I care and want to work together on this, as a team, to recommit and put even more effort to "make him love me". I cant make him love me, I know this, yet I still bargain with myself for that.
Depression- I am here alot. Not depression in a sense of impending doom, just that I am mourning what was there and now gone. I am so saddened that that marriage, the hopes, the dreams, are a thing of the past. I am surrending to this grief. I realize that it is gone, nothing I do or say can bring that back and it hurts. Somedays it hurts like heck and other days it is just a dull ache, but it still does hurt.
Acceptance-This is the stage I am having problems with I guess. I have accepted peices of the losses but not all the losses have been accepted. I think that my fears may be inhibiting this part. In accepting I know that I must and partially have accepted that I cannot change him. I know that I cannot make this M work alone. I have accepted my parts in this, I also have accepted that I am who I am. I am a wonderful, intelligent, kind, strong, compassionate, and thoughtful person. I am having the hardest part accepting the loss of the dreams and hopes for the future.
In those dreams and hopes came in my mind everything balled into one. I had dreamed of our life together, raising our children to become as great as they could be, growing old together, going on cruises, just being able to sit together holding hands and being happy, being together as one. I had hopes of the love and committment to each other being a bond that time could not break, no one and nothing could interfere with. That is the part of acceptance I am having a hard time with, and I keep going back to anger, even denial maybe, and working to depression, but not accepting fully. In accepting this, I fear that what little there is left between us will be gone. If I let go, and feel free to let go, will he come back to me? But I think like the stages say, that I do accept the loss for the most part, and with that loss goes the maybe unrealistic hope that I have been holding on to.

Nikko,
I am not going to give up. I havent yet, I just am going through these stages and sometimes all of them at once in my mind. I know he has the potential to be a kind, caring, considerate, compassionate, strong, loveable person. I know that person is within him, but he does not seem to see that person. I see him stuck in the denial phase of grief. In my humble opinion, he has not gone through the stages of the loss of the OW, let alone the loss of the M that was, and the me that is no more. In my past, I would try to "fix" it for him, attempt to make him see what is in front of his eyes, and even at times try to make him do what I thought was right. I cannot and will not be that person, and I know he is grieving that too. But this is a path he must chose to take. I see him making changes for me, to make me happy, to make me want to love him. That is so off kilter, yes we strive to enrich each others lives, and do things we want to do to build the love and trust, but we do it for our benefit also. When I went up this morning to wake him, it was not just to make him happy, it was also a way for me to show him my continued committment to not be the person I was. I was trying to show him that I have changed, I want to love him, I want to chose him. The rejection from him hit me in the gut, but I do accept that regardless of the rejection I am still a good person, and a work in progress. So instead of sulking and getting angry I soothed myself. A big step for me. And I am better for it. It however is with soothing and loving myself that I find at times our R is being hindered. Why? I dont know or understand yet. I may in time or may not.
I feel weird today as you can probably tell. Like a weight has been lifted off my chest. I think I want to change my signature line and maybe my screen name too. I dont fit with either of them anymore.
JE

So glad about your revelation...however, if you change your screen-name, let us know, k?
NEVER GIVE UP! Just try to remember that if you do, they will get together, and you'll feel as if you just handed him over to her. SCREW THAT! There will be no handing-over-of-anyone's-husbands around here! Can I get an AMEN!

AMEN monica.
I once told her on the phone that she could have him served on a silver platter, this was way before MB
Now I have changed my mind, I will keep him
I will not give up. I am a Mainer and we dont give up without a big fight..LOL
JE

morning je---just popping in to check on you.
im a bit tired and really to lazy to go back and re-read to find out....so im gonna ask...

has he read any of the books?

he really needs a plan.....

He has read the Harley books months ago. He is reading Every Mans Battle right now. He says he needs a few days to process all the info he recieved. He broke down and cried while we were eating lunch yesterday. So I am giving him a few days. I did chat a little with him, and admitted that down deep there is love for him, it is just way down and it scares me. This was after he told me there are times he wants a separation or D,, and that right now he is at his breaking point and ready to give up. Does that sound like he is ready?
JE

Sounds like withdrawls to me. He knows he loves and needs you, but no matter how he tries, he can't forget about OW. He chooses you, but still there is that part of him that he gave to her that he hasn't gotten back yet. In His Needs/Her Needs, Dr. Harley comments about the addiction, and how it may be a "forever" thing. Your FWH has probably accepted this, sort-of like an alchoholic accepts that he/she must abstain from ANY alchohol, or risk becoming all mixed up in it again. This may be a kind of grief your FWH is experiencing. This is more than likely a good thing, for it means he has given her up, and is re-affirming his commitment to you. Please have faith. Remember - NO HANDING OVER OF ONE'S HUSBAND, right?

Just typing and update, or lack there of. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
FWH has taken a break from MB for a little while. Not unusual in his scheme of things. May be another attempt to push it under the rug, or just to give his mind a break. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> We went rollerskating together and out to dinner. We are not spending the minimum 15 hours a week together though. I know this is necessary and have stated that it is important for recovery, but even that basic concept is lacking. I have asked that he set his alarm for 9 am, so that we can spend time together in the morning. My mistake was to wake him up. That took away his choice in the working on the marriage. I have not done that since the last posted time, where my feelings got hurt. So since then, he has slept in each day until around 11am. Then he gets up and does a few chores, then does stuff for him and off to work. No time together at all on those mornings. I have been staying up till midnight to spend time with him. It is exhausting me. Any suggestions??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

We have had a chat this week about his needs again. He needed to hear that I do love him. According to him that gives him something to hold onto. So he has had that need met. I give him affection and attention. I am open and honest with him. I make time at midnight for him, sometimes going to sleep at 2 am or later, then getting up for work at 7am. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
I see him make attempts, and I see him trying. I do not want to discourage, and I compliment whenever he does something for me. I thank him each time, and let him know that I enjoy the little notes, recreation that we do together, etc. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
On a side note, one of our twins and I chatted yesterday. She had many questions, and I answered them as best I could. She does not feel comfortable with her dad at all. He has damaged thier trust for a long time too. Way before dday, more like 3 years ago when the A started he became a bitter and angry man. He not only LBed and DJed me, but did it to each of the kids. They all were somewhat fearful of him. He never hit them physically, but was very mean and nasty at times. We all bore the brunt of his wrath. I would smooth it over most of the time, and make up for his short comings with them. I did things with them instead of with him, bad for the marriage for sure. Now though, it is not enough. She is hurt and angry with him and what he has done to our family unit. She does not want to express her feelings to him at all. This is not something I can "fix" nor should I. It just makes me so sad to see them hurting. Not only does the A make us BSs a casuality of "war" it also makes the kids one too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Example:
DD 15 used to idolize her dad. He walked on water in her eyes. FWH would belittle her, have AO's at least daily, make rude comments, etc. She would withdraw to her room and cry. DDs 14 would ask many questions, he would tell them to stop asking questions, complain about them to me in front of them. DS17 alway got the worst of his wrath. I will not give examples here but they are pretty bad. In FWHs choices, the A was not his only bad one. His relationship with all 4 kids is poor to say the least.
I think back to when he was there for them, and wish that could come back. That is one of the hardest things to think about in the old M, the bond he had with them that has been missing for so long. And with all this, kids in thier teens, time is running out quickly. Does this bond ever come back?

I am rambling on and on. Sorry, my mind is my worst enemy sometimes. Well I am off to watch a movie. Have a good night.
JE

i am reading....i just dont know what to say. i really do think he is doing little things but its the biggies that are really gonna start healing this. what i mean about biggies is counseling and discussing it with you. unfortunately he runs from them both. continue what your doing...maybe consider harley for yourself...he really helped me. then hubby joined later....hang in there. it does get better.

Well I am going to give another long winded update. This place has become a safe haven of sorts for me.
FWH and I chatted last night. Like others have said that I dont seem to get is be careful what you ask for. I asked him why he loved me, then clarified to ask him for specific changes in me and a how am I doing kinda thing. How is he feeling since taking almost a week off from MB and the info overload as he called it.
That was mistake number one for me. FWH tells me that he finds that he is wishy washy about the M. That at times he wants it to work and at times he wants a D. I then explain that the R process takes 100% of both partners to work, a give and take, each leaning on each other when needed. He tells me he is confused and not sure what he wants.
I lost it here and asked him why he waited until I told him I loved him and have been making huge strides in beginning to trust him. I could not stay here, I had to get out for my own sanity. I left at 2 this morning and came back at 6am because he begged me to come home. He was concerned that I was suicidal. Which I might add ticks me off. I am not the same person I was 10 months ago. I do LOVE myself, and my family. I have worked so hard to become a better, stronger person. I know I am and I am happy with that change.
He then tells me that he was being honest and open about his feelings. In the next breath he tells me he told me that because he thought that is what I wanted, for him to be the one to file for D. So how is that open and HONEST if you do something based on your perceptions of another persons feelings. I told him that if he wanted to know that answer then he should ask me, dont assume that I feel a certian way. I cannot know what he is feeling, his feelings are his own and mine are my own. Am I wrong?
I dont get this, I really dont. I have chosen to love him again and chosen to begin trusting him again. I CHOSE THIS!!
But I know that for myself and my needs I cant do this again. He also told me that it bothers him that I do things with the kids and friends and alone when he is at work. When he is home I spend all my time with him and the kids. I am quitting my job to be with him. He doesnt feel like I NEED him. I clearly told him I dont NEED you, I want you. Big difference in my mind. But with these changes that I have made and the suggestions from MBers here to get on with life, do things, find myself he finds it as pushing him away. I cant win!! I know we need to speak with the Harleys but he refuses.
I own my part in all this mess. I have apologized and apologized. I told him how sorry I was that I lost my way and love for him after dday, and that I was afraid to love him and let him back in. I keep feeling hurt and sad. I do love this man with all my heart, but each time this happens my heart breaks over and over. I just cant do it again. What am I doing wrong? What else can I do? I do try to work with him, I ask him all the time how he is feeling, what is bothering him, and he shuts me out and pushes me away. Is there more or some other way to do this?
JE

Well, that's a surprise. Maybe HE has intimacy issues. I don't think you are doing anything wrong, just keep taking care of yourself.

JE,

I am very disappointed to hear this. I don't think it is YOUR efforts that are the problem either. If he is wishy washy about staying in the marriage and he needs you to focus on him to the extent that you quit your job, I think he does have intimacy issues and needs to be in control of things.

I hate the word control, it is sooo over used, but I really think you should step back and let him make this marriage what it should be. IF he won't or cannot, then perhaps the right way is the way out.

I think you both have to earn a divorce, but by the same time you both have to earn a good marriage as well. There is no free lunch or marriage for that matter. I think you need to address your issues and become very comfortable with yourself. It is job to start to rebuild this marriage. You are also right that NEEDING someone is NOT the basis of a good marriage. Loving someone, enjoying the presence of someone, wanting to be with someone IS the basis of a good long term marriage.

If he is playing games and trying to tell you what HE thinks you want to hear, then he does NOT get it. I know he does not like to be told what to do based on his responses on this site. Nor does he seem to understand the concept of a team. I am not sure what the problem is/was, but let him sort it out. Are you sure quiting your job is the right thing to do right now?

Must go.

God Bless,

JL

Believer- I am doing exactly that and in the process he is maybe not happy with it. I am happy with who I am, I have become a better friend and share everything with him, and have greatly improved the shaky relationships that I let slide for 2 long with the kids too. I have apologized to them all and feel that I am owning up to my shortcomings and getting them changed into positive things.
JL- Yes I am quitting my job for many reasons but one of the biggest ones is that a few months ago he changed shifts without my consent. Now he works 3-11 and I work days. We only get to spend time together on his 2 evenings off, and one of them is spent with the kids. So in order to work on the 15 hours a week I felt it necessary to quit. I have already went from 40 hours a week down to 20 a week to be with him, but there still is only about 6 hours spent together alone each week.
As for the intimacy part, yes he has issues for sure. He tells me he wants me to be more independant then I kinda get blindsided by doing so. But I only do these things for me and the kids while he is at work. When he is home, it is a family unit or him and I. I was looking into his eyes the other morning getting ready to tell him that I love him and want this marriage to work, and he looks at me almost angry and says sarcastically "What?!" It bothered me alot, but that is my perspective. I went downstairs and soothed myself with a nice bubble bath, then went to talk to him. It worked out ok, but he told me he has a problem with me looking him in the eyes. He also has a big problem with me being weak and not happy and chipper. When I have a bad day he has a bad day. But I no longer do that too, I own my feelings and he owns his.
He is not happy with the website, it is mostly BS and FWWs, and according to him the As are different. He cannot even look at himself sometimes, has not forgiven himself, and does not like himself. He has told me that in much duress. I have told him that I forgive him, I think can be a great man and person, I have seen glimses of it, he just has to strive for it. But I cannot make him do it, no one can but him. He does not take critism well I guess. Heck he is killing himself by doing that to himself all the time. I see him hurting, I see him in pain, and want so much to help him but he pushes me away by not answering, sugarcoating, lying, or just trying to do what he thinks I want or manipulating. In the past I was party to this, I see it and understand it and will not fall victim anymore. I own my feelings and responses to things, but I cannot own his.
I guess that is why I ask about a timeline, or time frame to see the light at times. I get discouraged that he doesnt really want this to work. He says the words, but the actions just are not there alot of the times. He has made some changes and I tell him that I see them and like them. Little things do go a long way. But the big things need to be worked on too.
MY biggest problem if no one could tell is patience, I lack severely there...LOL. I am trying to learn to be still. It is hard though when I know I went through heck to heal and deal lately but feel great for it, and I want him to feel this way. I wish everyone did.
JE

it is the same with any addiction...the addict has to want to get help and get better and heal. unfortunately he doesnt right now...he just wants to wake up and have it all be gone. he doesnt want to look at you and see your pain, he doesnt want to talk, he may have to own up to what he's really done and face it. i also believe he has still not let go of the fantasy....how do i get all this from your posts????? i could have wrote them. this was my hubby also....the only thing that worked for me was i asked him to leave and went total plan b on his a$$. scared the crap outta him and woke him up. took me years...almost three to get there though....the additional damage to my emotional well being cannot be calculated! i should have done it sooner....but i wasnt ready....i took too long.

the first and foremost condition for return was 6 weeks of counseling with harley...then i would think about it....

If he's feeling guilty...he SHOULD. Let him go through this thing. I know it's hard. At least you aren't trying to cope with vodka. I must say, I'm a little buzzed right now. I wish I could leave this stuff alone. I always think it's gonna help..but it only makes me more upset.
Anyway, if he's feeling some responsibility for this thing,I would let him experience the guilt. It will bring him back to where he was before. When he felt awful if he hurt you. After OW came along, he lost that. If he's actually feeling bad for what he's done, he's on the right track. Right?
Remember. We wont be handing our husbands over to these skanks, right? WE took vows to be here, right? THE OW HAS NOT. SCREW HER! It really seems to me that he's trying to work through his mistakes. Please tell him for me that MB is the best place for him, if he's interested in restoring his marriage. HE cheated, so if he's tired of "facing the music", he should also expect that his family has been preparing for that. He needs to understand that THIS IS HIS FAULT!! You may have neglected certain needs, but SO DID HE!!
If he's hurting over the predicament he's in, well, we all know the line "you made your bed..." Right?
You're not empty. You have more insight than many of the people here.
Love you.
Monica

Thank you Nikko and Monica.
He still is not on the boards as you can see. Just living day to day. I will not push the issue with him, I would like to counsel with the Harleys. I will know more about finances in a few weeks.
Nikko your H and mine might be twins...LOL, mine has said exactly what you said about waking up getting it and it being all better, wants a quick fix pill without doing the work. I told him if they made the pill, I would be the first to get one. Cause I would love to wake up and not live with this pain and hurt from the A that I did not have a choice in.
I saw him yesterday for about 30 minutes, kissed him goodbye this am, and will see him for a few hours tomorrow. This is what it is like with him on 3-11. I am working more hours to afford the medical co pays and to tuck some aside for C with the Harleys. How much should I plan on?? How many sessions is average?
Monica- you have got to at some point face your pain without the vodka. It will wait or it will hit you full force when you are sober for one day. But believe me, it will hit you and hit you hard because you are not healing when you are drinking. You need to start healing, you need to do a 12 step program, you really do. I have been there and know what happens when you crash hard core. Please think about this and begin healing. Love ya...
JE
JE

just so you know----my hubby's job is from 8 am to around 10 pm....if im lucky! lol this is normal. he runs an auto dealership so i live with what you are describing to a T. also the resentment "we" had a life without him! well duh...of course we do---your not here!!! kids still haver activities and sports and i worked then also. he distanced himself from us....not us from him.....he didnt realize it at the time though. he does now....it is as much his responsibility to call and be connected to us as it is for us to do the same for him.

find a way to do the counseling....work if you have to...but it should be mandatory. my hubby learned more in two or three sessions with steve than he did with years of anyone else. steve goes at it with a total plan from the first call. he doesnt waste time....best money i ever spent.

i am still praying for you both...i pray to god he wakes up in time.....and i pray that when he does you still have something left for him.....

Nikko a few more questions. I see the cost is 185 per session, about how many is normal? 4 or 10, that can make a huge difference right now. I can swing 4 in about 2 weeks, but not 10.
He does not want to do counseling. Is MB counseling for just me OK or does he have to do it? I cannot force him. I do not want to push the subject and be accused of DJ or what ever either. I mean I am so much better now with me, its the M that is lacking. I have done IC and graduated..LOL with return if ever you need to.
I am willing to do it alone, but how do you do it alone in a M?? After plan Aing last year, I didnt realized I would have to keep doing it alone to tell you the truth.
Ok I think that is it for now. Thanks.
JE

je---i couldnt even begin to give you any insight to how many---tell yourself 4 for now and figure it out as you go. get in whatever you can. but....counseling alone only prepared me for----plan b. your hubby has to want to do this and recovery...he doesnt. so...you sit in limbo. so did i....how long are you willing to waste? your hubby doesnt realize he is losing you slowly eveyday....and the resentment if you wait is horrible. you realize not only did they do this (affair) for however long...but then when i was hemmorraging..they sat and watched me bleed....
it wasnt pretty when resentment hit around here.lol

i think for me it came down to a personal boundry....he can call it whatever he wants.(LB< DJ< ETC>>) but it comes down to him not wanting to do something because it is uncomfortable for him.....doesnt care how uncomfortable it all is for you. isnt willing to face what he needs to do...because quite frankly, why should he....what are his consequences if he doesnt?

why is he so afraid of counseling??? oh and just so you know...steve doesnt go into pasts, well he didnt for us...it was all about the here and now of today, the affair and what are you doing tomorrow to make each other fall in love again.

now with past abuse, i dont know if he goes into any of it...we could ask someone? but what is hubby's fear....and yours?

Well stayed up till 3 am this morning chatting. I did ask FWH one more time about MC and it is still a solid no. I asked him if he wanted to do IC or FC and it is also a no.
I also screwed up by asking about the A. I have been going back and forth about calling MOWs husband about the A. He has never been told, nor her family, nor her work, or anthing like that. The A was supposively over when I found out, so I figured that exposing was not necessary, but lets just say that there is a medical reason why if she is having sex with her husband still then he needs to know. I know if FWH reads this post he will be ticked at me so no details.
When I asked about the A, I asked about MOWs kids, she has 3, and now I know that FWH met 2 of them. FWH told me the A was in a car, or in MOWs daughters apt. when daughter was not there, nothing more. Just chatting in the car, or "quickies" in apt or in her office at work. I was surprised and asked for more detail with meeting kids. Mind you MOW knew who I was, called to confess her love of my H and tell me that she could be a better wife and mother. That hurt the deepest I think. She knows all about me, and I know literally nothing about her. FWH kept saying I dont know about everything. I asked what they talked about, what needs she was meeting, etc.
I was upset that he never gives me any answers. I then asked about the other night and how he told me he was fluctuating between R and D. He tells me that he was being honest and telling me how he feels. I said, do you know why you fluctuate back and forth? Is there something I am not meeting for you? Am I LBing or DJing or anything like that? He answers no, and he doesnt know why. Tells me he deals by sweeping things under the rug, and pulling them out once and a while to deal with them. I asked what he has been dealing with since last post here..."nothing". I asked if he has been thinking of a plan for R, "no".
Yes I feel this is limbo. He did say it was ok for me to go to MC alone. Is this even possible. I know many do it when there spouses are still active in the A to work on plan A or Plan B, but what about R? Doesnt it take 2 people to R? So if that is true, what exactly are FWH and I in??
I did apologize for asking questions and ended up with forget it, I dont care. Not nice, an LB and then apologized for that. I am just getting angry, frustrated, tired, and disappointed. Stinks sometimes. Patience is a virtue I dont think I have much left of LOL
JE

BTW forgot a big trigger here. I was searching for MOWs numbers and ran acrossed a picture of her...huge trigger and instead of withdrawing I got angry. Not a good way to start a chat, I know this was wrong. I was hurting, and angry and should have kept my big mouth shut. I feel terrible that I asked about the A. But I need some form of closure, how do I get that without FWHs true and full confession? Do I need it for closure? I know her name, and where they had meetings, nothing more?
JE

i cant answer right now---banging headache...had to let you know i read it and do have something to say....lol.like i never have anything to say...lol plus...we dropped to page three!!!

ok---first thing....get the information to mowh. i can tell you from my experience it will be a regret i take to my grave. i never contacted him. because of my breakdown and the amount of time that past till i got well....i never contacted him. i still regret it....probably always will. you obviously have different reasons for telling him....much more important ones....

ok---the fluctuation..here's my take. he goes back and forth because sweeping it under isnt working and he isnt willing to do something different and he cant imagine living like this forever so running is easier.....hit him right between the eyes with that one and i bet he will drop his mouth to the floor cause you nailed it sooooo well!! no easy answers on this one i am afraid. believe me i tried it all and then some...lol. finally had to decide it wasnt good enough for me and i was done. i deserved so much more....after everything i survived....this is what i ended up with??? i dont think so.....lol. when i had the breakdown hubby didnt get me any help....he kinda liked that i wasnt combative and a typical * personality. i was quiet, withdrawn, sullen and barely running on autopilot. in other words i wasnt making waves. so with no intervention or drugs i healed myself...or began to. it has been almost 4 yrs and i am almost comfortable with me again. i will never be who i was....that took a long time to realize and accept....but i really like who i am today!

my hubby is still useless when i trigger. we are gonna work on that very soon....right now my plate is too full...but it is on the horizon.lol

JE--this is not recovery. im sorry. i was told that for so long and i never got it...he was here...we were together...he choose us...how could this not be recovery??? cause he was still doing the things that hurt me the most! he wasnt actively working on healing us.

limboland sucks....i lived there for years.

There is NO fluctuating between R & D. That's 2 opposite sides of the world.

So your Ws is still babbling, right through his ....... and probably a few other places. Sad sight indeed.

Imagine going about your business or shopping, etc.....then to see a WS in full bloom. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> I saw an A going on at lunch one day at McDonald's.....now if these 2 weren't having an A, they musta' been very newly wed.....well they weren't wed so they were having an A, I nearly puked my lunch but said enough out loud to make them feel uncomfortable......and I have NO regrets. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

L.

I am processing this info right now. I am not backing away or ignoring the posts.
So I am in limbo until when?
How do I get out of limbo?
Yes he babbles, but has not seen or talked to OW since Nov. of 2004 according to him, he does lie to me, he does not like me to invade his privacy or bring up the A. What is this telling me that I am too deaf to hear?
I think he is sincere in not seeing or chatting with OW. I think he is to darn stubborn, doesnt want to hurt me with the truth, is undecided at times if this is all worth it, and cannot forgive himself even though I have forgiven him.
Like I said I am trying to process this info. These are my thoughts.
JE

proccess away---take all the time ya need. lol we're here....

From Penalty Kill

Oh, JE, I have been following your thread, and thinking of you and your H. Stuck in limbo? Sometimes my H and I feel that way too.


Oh, you're not deaf. He *must* open up his life to you, I wish I could make him see that. He *must* be completely honest with you - and I think that you are giving him the safety he needs to do so, which is essential, but he doesn't see it. Honesty can be freeing, but he has to take that first step and it is scary.


This is very good! He must absolutely continue this.


Yep, all rolled up into one tangled knot....you have just described a WS/FWS. In addition to worrying about hurting you, he also thinks that he may hurt *himself* further by admitting the truth. Oh, we FWS can be so selfish, we can be so good at denial, as if by not speaking of it, what we did does not exist. But until you have the truth, to YOUR satisfaction, it's going to be tough to move forward, and I wish that I could make him see that. And it's really tough for a FWS to forgive him/herself. I know this!

Take care, JE. I'm wishing you both well.

bringin you up too^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Thanks nikko.
Way to many things with kids lately, and working full time for a few weeks, and medical stuff too.
I need a pause button.LOL
JE

well when ya find that button, and are done with it of course......send it my way!!!LOL

Sure will if I ever find the darn thingy...LOL
and when you find the magic wand to FIX it all and are finished with it...you can send it my way...
JE

Well daughter 15 waiting for me to take her to the bank...so as the mom I MUST obey!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />Talk about selfish...geez LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
JE

Ok time for an update while I have 2 hours between kid activities.
On Tuesday night I pulled out all stops. I told him that I love him with all my heart, that I am scared of being hurt, that the "In Love" feeling will eventually come IMHO, and that I am committed to R fully. I told him this as I placed the wedding ring back on his finger. I told him I loved him and want to grow old with the new lostone whenever he is ready.
This is my last and final attempt to get him to GET IT and understand that I want this to work. I then told him that he needs to start his rebuilding process.
1. Figure out the WHYs of his A.
2. Fix the WHYs so that it doesnt happen again
3. Forgive himself for his mistakes
4. Decide if he wants a D or R for once and for all
5. With either choice, go for it with all his heart.
6. If R is chosen, then he needs to develop a solid plan
7. Keep working on MB principals and getting help
8. And if R, also MC with the Harleys.

That is my ultimatium of sorts. I will not sit in limboland much longer. I need to see progress of some sorts. I expect bumps and small setbacks, and triggers, etc. But I am not willing to accept nothing anymore. I need more.

So what does everyone think? Am I pushing too much?
JE

bravo. simply bravo.

now dont do what i di and fall for crumbs while he "thought" about counseling.....doesnt work.

I wont Nikko. I have decided that I am allergic to crumbs...LOL
FWH is not feeling well today, been sleeping all day, so I had alot of ME time, went tanning, chatted with friends, worked on my website, off and on here. In about 20 minutes off to a competition for my girls. He has a head cold and sore throat!! Man if we women could just sleep all day with that!! LOL
Chat with ya later.
JE

Well back to the limbo again, or further down not sure
FWH made a mistake and revealed more than he expected. We were chatting about my upcoming new JOB, stay at home mom, with dog breeding. And he tells me that his 401K is doing great! Now he just promised for the 4th time since dday that he would not go online at work or home unless MB. He is addicted to ebay, porn, etc. This is something I am very serious about. This was a line in the sand for him coming home and working on R. Now this line has once again been crossed. What do I do here?
This has nothing to do with the internet per say. It has to do with constant broken promises, that I cannot trust a liar, and since a couple of weeks ago he has started slipping down a slope again. Will not come on MB, runs when things get rough, refuses to go to MC, and agrees to "make" me happy and then sneaks behind my back.
Anyone care to enlighten me?
JE

so why are you afraid to stand up with what you said your action would be if he crossed the boundry again?

i hope that made sense....i have a cold or something comming on real fast and hard...been sneezing my head off and cant breathe....lol

JE, I was just wondering about you a couple hours ago, so it's nice to see your post. I don't think you're pushing too much. I think you're putting yourself out there and being vulnerable (which I know is hard) and giving him a clear picture of your expectations. What was his reaction?

In lipstick, I wrote across my bathroom mirror "I am worthy of more than just crumbs. If I can't have the whole cake, I don't want any of it." For nine weeks, I accepted the crumbs -- sometimes bigger bites, but it's not enough anymore.

Well the consequence was to separate. Is this where I should take it? I have taken about as much as I can take at this point. I love him and he knows it, with that I feel like he is "playing" with me sometimes. Like telling me that he was thinking about divorce and then R and back and forth. This man never said the divorce word since dday. He has been stoic in stating that this can work, and it was me saying I dont know that I can. Now I know this M can work with him putting 100% into the M, and I tell him that. Then he says the "D" word, and breaks a promise all within one week. I wonder if this is a game sometimes, or if I am really nuts.

JE

your not nuts sweetie---he's selfish. and separating does not mean your giving up---took me years to get that. i really didnt understand that in separating i was actually standing up for our family and our marriage. our family didnt deserve anything less, neither did i. anything less would be disrespectful. when he was upset and packing he was talking and one of the things that came out of his mouth was something to the effect of telling everone what "i" did(meaning making him leave).....lol....yeah hun, you go right ahead...tell them all how i let you stay after destroying me with a sleazy affair, oh yeah, tell them how i fought for honesty and love for over 3 yrs when you wouldnt even participate, oh another one, tell them that i am still praying everyday that you pull your head out of your a$$ and return to us even after all this......yeah hun...go right ahead and tell them all and TELL THEM EVERYTHING.....I PLAN TO!!!

poor man never saw that comming....lol, i actually felt bad for him in that moment. but he made his choice....his own comfort over what was good for the marriage and family....i was not having that anymore.

je----have you done everything you could....can you look in the mirror and like the person looking back? can you tell your kids honestly you tried all you could....when i hit that point....plan b. my hubbies addiction to selfishness was worse than any ow. i think yours is too.

now all i can tell you is this worked for me...but i was ready to be a single mom if it meant another day of living like that....only you can figure out if your there also.

not pressuring you---just want to keep it up here so its easier to find.....lol hope the new job is going ok.

up up and away........lol

Nikko,
I will update soon. Working full time plus, kids with final competitions this weekend, and puppies going to thier new homes. I need not only the pause button, but the stop button. FWH is the same, no changes, just more cranky, more distant this entire week. Will chat with him soon and you guys too.
Its almost 5 am, I am up couldnt sleep again, figured I would write real quick before going back to bed for 2 more hours.
JE

glad to hear from you---i was getting worried...lol

just popping you back up......lol

Well once again a quick pop in. This is my last week at work coming up...YEAH!!!
But also a little somber, as FWH has remained distant and reserved. I am pretty sure he is not seeing OW again, but thinking about the Marriage and its future. No relationship talk for about 2 weeks, and only once in a month. NO real talking about much at all.
I am at a loss again. But am trying to settle myself down. I do not want to pressure him and do not want to make any decisions at this point. I am saddend by this recent withdrawl of his, and angry too. He has not initiated SF once in 3 weeks.
I feel like I am living with a stranger once again. That is the best way to describe this. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
JE

JE, I was wondering and worrying when I hadn't seen you around, here and in Idiotville.

I just wanted you to know I've been thinking about you. Lostone has a very thick skull I'm afraid and I have a feeling he thinks at his age he doesn't have to do much changing. That what he is is set in cement and can't be changed now.

I have BIG news for him. I'm a year younger than him and have done more changing in the last couple of years than I've ever done in my life.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{JE}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Thanks Jen.
I know that he can do what needs to happen. I know that he has the strength. But he does not.
In my opinion, he has given up. He has decided that it is easier to walk away than to put forth the effort this marriage so desperately needs right now. He walked away from 2 marriages before, fell in love again, and started anew. It is hard for me, battered and scarred, to compare to a new relationship.
But regardless of the outcome, I know in my heart that I have done all that I can. I put everything I had into the basket, and it still wasnt enough. Maybe that is what he is thinking too. I do not know as he still does not talk to me.
I am finding myself getting more and more lonely, and wanting more out of life. Not with just anyone, but with him. It kills me to know that the man I love and want so much, is slowly pulling away from me and there is nothing I can do to stop it from happening.
I chose to love him again, and I may lose him for it. He seemed to put more effort into the marriage when I could have cared less. Now that I am wanting this to work, have told him how much I do love him, he seems withdrawn and actively pulling away from me. Weird.
JE

JE---still praying for you---i just moved and had the surgery on the 7th....i'll be back in a few days....come back and chat it out....lol

bump.......