New to MB. Need advice/Help, thoughts, things to do etc.<p>I am 33 years old my wife is 29 years we do not have any children.<p>Me and my wife are married for 5 years and dated 2 years before the marriage total 7 years.<p>She just confessed to me about her A with a friend about 5 weeks ago and we are going thru a hell of a time. Though this A (PA/EA) started in Jan 2000 she has met him only for a day (the guy is overseas) than she met him again in Jan 2002 for a day and third time in March 2002 a day. Other times they were exchanging e-mails and were on the phone lot of hours.<p>I am willing and would like our marriage to be restored but unfortunately she is not ready yet and is in a stage of withdrawal. (this withdrawal is from last 6 months but I did not know the reason until she confessed 5 wks ago)<p>We are seeing a local counselor for last 5 weeks separately once a week, she is not ready for counseling together. <p>By the way the affair is over the guy is not interested anymore and my wife is struggling to put a closure to it.<p>Right now she says she has no feeling for me and as soon as she get that back she will work on the marriage, <p>I have done everything possible and exhausted every avenue and need your advice if there is anything else I could do. <p>WS moved out 7 weeks ago that leaves me in Plan B, we talk on the phone sometimes, meet for Lunches or dinner rarely but things are the same, she is still in the FOG. Any guess how long does it take to get out of this fog, I recently found out that she is still emailing OM but not sure whether he is responding. I have not confronted yet because that will be a LB. <p>I certainly need advice and help its taking its toll every single minute, I don't know how long I can take it.<p>The Lion

TheLion:<p>To be in plan B you should have plan A'd for a couple of months.<p>A real plan B is only carried out when your WW has not come out of the fog and your remaining love for her is so dangerously low that it is practically gone. In plan B, the BS gives the WS a letter basically stating that even though there is still love and a willingnes to work on rebuilding the marriage, the pain that the WS is causing is too great and in order to protect and not loose the remaining love left for WS, THE BS IS GOING TO STOP ALL CONTACT WITH THE WS UNTIL THE WS ENDS THE AFFAIR AND IS SERIOUS ABOUT REBUILDING THE MARRIAGE. In plan B she will get a taste of what life really will be like without you. But since you are still having contact with your wife by talking with her on the phone and having lunches and dinner, you are not in plan B mode at all. The time when you will be able carry out a plan B is when your pain becomes so unbearable that you will not be able to be near her.<p>Your W moving out and saying that as soon as she gets feelings for you that she will work on the marriage is bogus. You admit that she is still in the fog and if that is so then she's got more than enough opportunity living by herself to continue an affair with another man.<p>In the meantime, use the time to read more on the subject of affairs to educate yourself and get some ideas so that when she is finally out of the fog and really, really serious about working on the marriage, you'll be more than ready yourself.<p>Joe

Thanks Joe,<p>I was never given an opportunity to continue Plan A, I tried helplessly, but she was the one who wanted to move out. Well also, at that time I was not aware of many things which was informed to me later after she moved out.<p>Though I have stopped calling her or talking to her, she is the one calling and trying to talk. Actually we are in the middle of building a house and that kind of keeps us in touch, though I don't want any CONTACT. <p>What do you suggest I do, my love for her is drained every day as time passes by and I don't know how long I can take this.<p>To be honest we had a great marriage until the EA/PA never had problems, maybe communication sometimes, EN are met though we can do a better job after reading and learning at MB.<p>Please advice any suggestions you might have, thanks a lot.<p>The Lion

Have you considered scheduling an appointment with with one of the MB counselors. I spoke with Steve yesterday morning (my 1st appt with him), because I was kind of in the same position you are, to Plan B, or not to Plan B? My WH seemed to be coming around a couple of months ago, then I LB'd pretty badly (definitely not Plan A) and set things back, I went into a modified Plan B, what I mean by that is that I did not write a letter but did not contact him. My mistake there was that I went into this on a bad note and that was his last impression of me. Steve suggested that I revert back to a full-fledged Plan A with no LB's, whatsoever. He warned me that I would feel like a doormat, that I would feel like I was being used, but that's okay. He also recommended that once a week I give him a card to let him know that I was thinking about him, but not to write anything to try to push him. Plan B is a hard one to go to, because if you do go there, you have to stick it out. Good luck with your decision.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>TheLion:<strong>
What do you suggest I do, my love for her is drained every day as time passes by and I don't know how long I can take this.
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>If you have the money, I would suggest that you counsel with Steve Harley and get his professional opinion.<p>Since it is she that makes contact with you, you may want to inform her that she stick to only talking about the house project and nothing else since the situation she has created has wounded you very much and that it only serves to chip away the remaining love you have for her. No breakfast,lunches or dinners at all. Your conversations should be kept to a minimum amount of time and if she insists on talking about the two of you then simply ask that she respect your request of no relationship talk just like you have respected her request to move out.<p>When you say you don't know how long you can take this, do you mean that you are actually considering divorce?<p>Joe

Thanks for the reply. Goingcrazy.
Yes I have talked to Steve last week, however, my W is not ready to speak to him. <p>If your WH is not ready to give up the OW I strongly believe Plan B is the best option for people like us, who have not done anything wrong and are still suffering the aftermath of the crap.<p>I have contemplated with A and B for a long time, as a matter of fact I am in sort of A & B same as yours. I am at a stage where B seems to be the appropriate action, I will speak to Steve next week and make that decision.<p>Keep patience and hang in there those are the only choice we have unfortunately. <p>The Lion

Thanks Joe for continously replying I sincerely appreciate that, without the support at MB there is not a whole lot that we can accomplish.<p>I have talked to Steve last week, my W does not want to talk to Steve, I will try and speak to Steve again this week.<p>I have absolutely stopped calling her, because I backed off, she started coming around but that lasted a week or so, now we are pretty much on plan B no contact. <p>Because of the house we might talk or meet to discuss issues relating to the house, but I will try to keep it to that, thanks for your advice.<p>"When you say you don't know how long you can take this, do you mean that you are actually considering divorce?"<p>Yes these thoughts are a constant, they keep coming back and forth, like, whether I will be able to TRUST her again, will I be able to love her again, will she ever stop LIEING etc. I can't decide. Its too confusing at times and it just takes everything I got. Honestly I have no clue what to do. <p>As always will appreciate your feedback.<p>The Lion<p>Joe[/QB][/QUOTE]

Lion:<p>I'm glad that you talked to Steve Harley because he's the expert and even if your marriage doesn't make it, like mine didn't, the things you learn from the Harley books and this forum will make you a stronger and better individual. Sure it hurts like h*** - don't I know it [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] - and I know what I'm about to say is poor consolation, but the things you learn by reading the Harley books like 'Surviving an affair''Love busters''His needs Her needs'. etc will make you aware what makes a relationship work - or don't work - and this will serve you extremely well in your recovered marriage or future relationship.<p>The great thing about plan B is that it takes the BS away from the unbearable pain from an unrepentant WS paying lip service about wanting to work on the marriage while continuing with the A. It also gives the WS a good taste of what life will be like if divorced from the BS. Of course there is always the possibility of the WS taking advantage of the out-of-sight-out-of-mind environment that plan B makes possible
and living it up with the OP - but there is no guarantee that this won't happen anyway, right?-.

What you have got to keep in mind is that your W's affair - like all affairs - is nothing but a fantasy because she and OM are not living together day by day and experiencing the joys [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] of the fantasy killer called reality. Don't be surprised that if and when your W's affair ends, she will feel like s*** because she'll realize that the only thing OM wanted her for was for her to be his cheap wh***. The sad thing is that it may be too little too late for her because you will probably will have moved on with your life. I wish I had saved the post from a few weeks ago from WS's that divorced their BS's to go live with the OP only to come out of the fog a year or two later and realized what a big mistake they made. You can't help but feel sorry for them because there is no way for them to go back and recover what they threw away.<p>Keep on posting and let us know how you and your WS are doing.<p>Have a safe and happy Memorial day weekend Lion. We'll be here for you if you need us.<p>Joe

Hi Joe!<p>I am terribly sorry to hear that your M didn't work out, well all the best in whatever you do and where ever life takes you.<p>I have ordered all the books you have mentioned and have been reading numerous others, I think I can get a PHD by the time I finish reading on A's.<p>Joe, I need to ask you how long were you on Plan B (not trying to be nosey) but with your experience maybe I will learn something. And what went wrong or your W never got out of FOG ? <p>"but there is no guarantee that this won't happen anyway, right?-." ABSOLUTELY. <p>they have demonstrated to us that they can do it anytime, anywhere, anyway they want it.

"cheap wh***." I agree very much.<p>Some of the other Q?s that is constantly on my mind is when you are in Plan B, <p>how do you deal with joint financing, mail, joint accounts, joint Credit cards, personal belongings, (she still have lot of stuff at my place) what about the new house we will be moving in JUNE ( maybe only me). I still take care of all the bills, though it hurts tremendously that you are paying lot of it for the A. BUT I am trying to be patient to see if my W come out of the Fog.<p>Also, my W keeps telling me the A is over the OM does not want her but she is the one still pursuing it, I just uncovered that she has been sending e-mail to OM however, I am not sure if OM has replied. What do I make of this ? (By the way if you recall the OM is overseas not much of PA but definately EA).<p>By the way our last contact was Thursday, I have not heard from her and have not contacted her. I have promised myself that I will not contact her no matter what, THOUGH like everyone else I get tempted to do it million times a day.<p>Well I guess enough for now, Joe, I will appreciate your reply.<p>Take Care and have a nice weekend.
TheLion

Hi Lion:<p>No you are not beign nosey in asking me how long I was in plan B. Unfortunately the simple answer to that question is zero time and it was because my marriage ended two years before I discovered Marriage Builders and it's concepts. <p>My xWW had multiple affairs - with men who had prison records to boot - and suffered from drug and sexual addiction that required serious psychological therapy in order for her to heal and live a productive life. <p>On many occasions I begged her to please take advantage of my company's medical insurance and seek treatment if not for her than for our daughters, but she flatly rejected my suggestions with laughter. The last time I made my plea to her she told me: 'f*** off it's my life and I will do what I damn well please with it and you and the girls can just k*** my a**'. After that, I filed for separation with a request for temporary custody - which was denied - and left her with my daughters in tow. <p>Unfortunately for me and our daughters, she still continued with her reckless inmature lifestyle of multiple affairs and neglecting our daughters by abandoning them when she went out with her BF's to party. When I found out about her abandoning our daughters to go out partying, I inmediately contacted my local social servicers agency and requested that a case worker be sent to investigate and possibly confirm what my daughters had told me. Well they did send someone and sure enough she witnessed first hand how our daughters had been left alone one night and she contacted the police and had her arrested for child endangerment charges. She - the case worker assigned to my case - filed a report with the social services agency on what she discovered and that report was forwarded to family court during the custody phase of our divorce. Fortunately for my daughters and me, the judge read the social service agency report and wholeheartedly agreed that my daughters best interests were best served with me as their sole custodial parent and ordered supervised visitation rights for my xWW.<p>For the first time in more than 16 years my xWW had to find a job not only to survive but to make child support payments. She was totally shocked because she never expected to loose so badly everything she had. Her friends were telling me that after the divorce/custody fall out, my xWW had stopped her affairs and attempted suicide twice. She was finally taken to a county ran mental clinic and she began the first in many treatments for her addictions. I had a feeling that sooner or later she would hit rock bottom but I had no idea of the magnitude of her crash and burn. Today, she still is continuing her therapy treatments and has comed a long way from the time me and our daughters left her that she now has unsupervised visitation rights and the girls stay with her two weekends out of the month. Even though she is still from beign mother of the year, I take great comfort that she is now a responsable parent and loves her daughters the way a mother should love them.<p>As far as yours truly is concerned, I met a wonderful lady - she too is divorced and was the BS - a year after my divorce and just recently proposed to her. My daughters - who are very protective of their dad - gave me their seal of approval before I became serious with her, and like her very much. The sad thing is that a few months after I started dating my new lady, my xWW wrote me a letter telling me how sorry she was for everything she put me and the girls thru, and that she wished that she could go back and undo everything she did because she now realized that she truly does love me very much and she always will. I say sad because even though I had already made peace with the past - no more love left in my love bank for my xWW - and moved on with my life, she finally realized the big mistake she made in letting herself be seduced by drugs and sexual addictions instead of working out her problems in a positive and constructive fashion [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] <p>My stbW has also read 'Surviving an affair''Love buster' and 'His needs Her needs'. The beauty of our relationship is we get to practice the concepts in the Harley books and are very happy for doing so.<p>I guess the moral of my story is that it isn't until we the BS's end or get close to ending our marriages, that our WS's often times come out of their fog and sometimes it is, for them anyway, too little too late.<p>As for how long you should plan B? In the Harley book 'Surviving an affair' the case is made that an affair can last anywhere from 6 months to 2 years. Plan A is not recomended for 6 months and if the affair is still going, then the BS should switch to plan B for 1 and 1/2 years before proceeding with divorce. Of course every situation is different and Steve or Jennifer Harley MAY tell you to go plan B inmediately or stay in plan A longer than 6 months, that's the reason why you need to continue to consult with either one of them to help you determine what is best for your particular situation.<p>By the way, what did Steve Harley tell you to do? <p>
Joe<p>[ May 26, 2002: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</p>

Hi Joe<p>My heart goes out to you and your daughters and I pray that no human being should be in a situation like you it is devastating. Though I wish you all the best with your new mate. <p>I will be talking to Steve, next week, we have just been working and trying to keep status quo of things were they are, in hope that FOG deminishes itself or clears up a bit.<p>I will keep you updated as it progresses, thanks for being there for me.<p>TheLION

Hi Lion!<p>Love your coffee? If you are not familar, please let me explain: In Hawaii there is a lion brand of Hawaiian coffee! So maybe you have connections!!! LOL! Just kidding. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Anyway to your comments about plan A vs plan B, I'd like to share a brief discription of it from the basic concepts section and you decide if you can still plan A while she is out there in lala land and what plan A really means for U. <p>Plan A & Plan B info.
Taken from the basic concepts section:<p>What is the purpose of Plan A taken from the basic concepts section):<p> plan A, an effort to end the affair with thoughtfulness and care, doesn't always work. In many cases a wayward spouse is so trapped by the addiction that he or she does not have the will-power to do the right thing. Once in a while the fog lifts and the cruelty and tragedy of the affair hits the betrayed spouse right between the eyes. In a moment of grief and guilt, he or she promises to end it. But then the pain of withdrawal symptoms often brings back the fog with all its excuses and rationalization, and the affair is on again. <p>Sometimes a wayward spouse settles into a routine of having his or her cake and eating it too. In an effort to win the wayward spouse back, the betrayed spouse meets emotional needs that the lover cannot meet, while the lover meets emotional needs that the wayward spouse has not learned to meet. {b]While this competition is excruciatingly painful to the betrayed spouse, and the lover as well, the wayward spouse basks in the warmth of being loved and cared for by two people, with no real motivation to choose one over the other.{/b] <p>
Plan B akso taken from the basic concepts section):
to avoid an indefinite period of suffering while a wayward spouse vacillates between spouse and lover, and to avoid rewarding the selfish behavior of having needs met by both spouse and lover, if plan A does not work within a reasonable period of time, I recommend plan B. <p>Plan B is for the betrayed spouse to avoid all contact with the wayward spouse until the affair has completely ended and the wayward spouse has agreed to my plan for recovery. In many cases, once an affair has ended, a betrayed spouse makes the mistake of taking the wayward spouse back before an agreement is made regarding marital recovery. This leads to a return to all the conditions that made the affair possible -- love is not restored, resentment is not overcome, and there is a very great risk for another affair. Without agreement and subsequent implementation of a plan for recovery, the betrayed spouse is better off continuing with plan B. <p>
&#8230;In general, I recommend separation when at least one spouse cannot control destructive behavior. An ongoing affair, of course, is one of those situations. Hence, plan B. <p>But in some cases, the safety risks are so great that plan B should be implemented immediately, with no time for plan A. In these cases, treatment for the abusive habit must take place during separation, and some evidence must exist that the risk has been greatly reduced, or completely eliminated, before the spouses should return to each other. Then, after being together again, the formerly abusive spouse should be held accountable by others for his or her behavior to assure the other spouse's safety. <p>In other cases, such as annoying behavior or failure to meet important emotional needs, where thoughtlessness does not reach the level of physical or mental abuse, plan A should be given quite a bit of time and effort before resorting to plan B. Remember, plan A is negotiating (without anger, disrespect or demands) to eliminate the annoying behavior or improve the meeting of emotional needs. A blanket agreement between spouses to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement goes a long way toward eliminating these thoughtless acts, and can also help couples learn to meet each other's needs with enthusiasm. But without that policy, couples often find that they cannot get anywhere with each other through negotiation, and sometimes separation can eventually lead to mutual recognition that they need the Policy of Joint Agreement to help them resolve conflicts. <p>Please us know what you think about this point from the concepts section. <p>Thanks,
L.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Orchid:<strong>
Love your coffee? If you are not familar, please let me explain: In Hawaii there is a lion brand of Hawaiian coffee! So maybe you have connections!!! LOL! Just kidding.
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>hmmmm (Homer Simpson voice over) coffee.<p>Joe

Sorry to nose my way in.<p>The Lion,<p>I am sorry that you are in this place right now. I know how difficult it is. You have been given some good advice and should consider it.<p>I have made several mistakes in my Plan A, one it lasted too long. And my piece of advice would be not to let that happen. I should have gone to Plan B long ago but was too afraid. Also, my H always seemed to turn it around for a little while.<p>Now, I am forced into Plan B but I still need to try and figure out if I should Plan A a little, so that my H does not remember the bad me who LB's big time. Someone in you post wrote about that and it makes sense.<p>Too Much Coffee Man,
You story is amazing. My heart goes out to you and I wish you so much luck with your new partner. I only hope that someday my H will come out of the fog and realize what he lost. I hope that happens before I move on. But it would not be bad if it happend after I moved on either. I just so badly want him to realize that life is not better with her and what he lost in me. I have done some stupid things during this crazy time. All of which has taken place each time he asked for a divorce. But I have also given so very much. I have tried to very hard. Why can't he see what he means to me and what we have?

Hi Orchid,<p>Believe it or not I studied in Hawaii, lived in Hawaii Kai between 91 - 95 went to HPU downtown. I am fully aware of the Hawaiian coffee.<p>Thanks for your support and helping me dissect A & B I guess I am in B because the A is not stopping and is continued ONE WAY that is only my W is pursuing as far as I know. We have NO CONTACT since last thursday it has been 5 excruciating painful days but I am getting better every day.<p>Once again thanks for your help, please keep replying it really helps.<p>The Lion

Hi N2BH<p>Thanks for your comments. I really S**** at the place we are in because as a matter of principal we as BS have done nothing wrong and we have been projected as bad guys, thats UNFAIR and it hurts.<p>I suggest plan B though it is Tough and scary all along but to my rational mind that seems to be the appropriate action for WS to react if they dont the inevitable is on the table D.<p>Good Luck and keep us posted where you are ?<p>The Lion

I have absolutely stopped calling her, because I backed off, she started coming around but that lasted a week or so, now we are pretty much on plan B no contact.
You (the BS) do Plan B, the WS just ignores you.<p>N2BH,
I have made several mistakes in my Plan A, one it lasted too long. And my piece of advice would be not to let that happen. I should have gone to Plan B long ago but was too afraid.
Then do it right before you go to Plan B.<p>Now, I am forced into Plan B but I still need to try and figure out if I should Plan A a little, so that my H does not remember the bad me who LB's big time.
Either you Plan A or Plan B, NOT both. Do a good Plan A so your spouse KNOWS the "good" you and not the "bad" you.

Thanks Chris I will follow your advice and continue plan B though it is very hard I am learning to live with it.<p>You (the BS) do Plan B, the WS just ignores you.<p>TheLion

I too am in Plan B for 2 months now. I cut contact with WH and he continued to try and contact me via phone. I told him more than once that I would only communicate about necessary things - kids, finances, etc. via e-mail. He claimed that I was trying to disassociate myself from this. My reply was that I didn't want to be on the emotional rollercoaster that I had been on and wasn't going to put myself throught that. He is now to the point where he is not replying to my e-mails or calling. Guess he is doing Plan B as well. Don't know if this is part of the withdrawl from A or depression of if he is continuing A. Many times he has threatened D but each time I have told him that is not what I want. Don't know how much longer I have to continue with Plan B. I have good and bad days, just like everyone else on this board. This is my first post but I have been reading for about 2 weeks now. Amazing that stories are so similar, even what the WS tells you and you, the BS actually believe. Try to make him think that I don't care what he does, but it is getting harder and harder the longer that we are seperated.
[img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img]

Hello - Is this a bad dream:<p>All my sympathies and prayers, I am in the same exact situation as you are my W is in FOG for last 8 weeks. Plan B continues. <p>One thing that bothers me a lot is we as BS have done nothing wrong and still have to suffer along just to save our M and love, what kind of reality is this ? I am just like you tired, exhausted and dead, don't know how long I can survive this.<p>Good Luck, hang in there, and we all hope for miracle.<p>thelion

TheLion,<p>The one thing I took from most of your posts here on this thread is that your WW confessed to you. I read somewhere (can't remember where though) that recovery is easier when the WS confesses before it's discovered. You seem very early in your dday and I think your actions have been right on. I know it wasn't your choice to be in Plan B, but the no contact must be a blessing (buried under all that pain). She is pursuing a relationship that is dead, she must be frantic and will hopefully recognize her attempts are futile.<p>I wish you peace and happiness!<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TheLion:
<strong>Hello - Is this a bad dream:<p>One thing that bothers me a lot is we as BS have done nothing wrong and still have to suffer along just to save our M and love, what kind of reality is this ? I am just like you tired, exhausted and dead, don't know how long I can survive this.<p>thelion</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Lion,
So you were in Hawaii Kai!!!! I miss the islands. Loved the food and beaches. Oh yea, my family too!! LOL!! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>In response to your above quote, you are right it is wrong to make someone else hurt but they can't have an A unless someone gets hurt. See there is no BS unless they are married. If they were both single then they would only do it to each other. <p>Now since that is our current situations, take a long hard look at yourself. If you are old enough to really know yourself, then focus on what your personal boundaries are. Read SAA and Love must be tough. Those are 2 good books. Also his needs/her needs is helpful in helping you see what makes the female gender tick. We are a bit of an oddity to you men from mars!!! LOL! But pay attention you need to know that it is possible to get along with our female kind. We are just stubborn and like a lot of reassurance. Even though we know we are doing good, something about that curse ("you will crave for your husband and he will dominate you") is somewhat instilled in many women. Not all mind you but many. Hormonal differences also come into play. That first female (Eve) really screwed up! Now many pay the price. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Anyhow, see if those books help out, then let us know what you think. Have you taken the emotional needs questionnaire?<p>L.

I bought the SAA book last night and started reading right away. Haven't gotten too far but I have realized that I tried to do Plan A for the 1st month that he wasn't even living at home. I didn't go to Plan B until I found out he was still seeing OW. I have been seeing a Counselor for a year now. 1st because of my depression due to my medical crisis and then when I found out about A. WH went with me for first 2 sessions after D-Day but told her that I was ready to pounce when I entered the room and he felt I was asking for something that he couldn't give me. His way of getting out of going with me to counseling and continue to see OW and not feel as guilty. He continued to see her for about a month until counselor told him that he really needed to figure out what he wanted before he came back to her. She told me she got the feeling that he thought he had to report to her and was going to start withholding stuff from her. She assured him that she would be there any time that he wanted to come and see her. She told me as soon as I found out that WH was still seeing OW to cut all strings and only communicate what is necessary. I haven't seen him since Mothers Day (actually brought me a card). Have talked on the phone to him since a week ago yesterday and that was only to discuss schedules with the kids for the holiday weekend. I did e-mail him today and asked if he wanted to have S for fathers day weekend and it would help be as well as there was something that I wanted to do that weekend as well. He actually replied back (hasn't been replying to e-mails regarding finances, etc.) His response was that he would be happy to keep S for the weekend. Told me to enjoy myself and asked if it was work related or not. My reply was No it isn't work related. I guess you could call it a Me Weekend. I plan on doing a lot of thinking and journaling. His response was that he was Sorry he shouldn't have asked and to have a good time. Told him apology accepted and I will talk to you later. I have tried extremely hard not to be here when he picks up S (15). I make plans with a girlfiend for lunch, movie, or stop at the gym on the way home, or tomm. I am going for a massage, something I have done since Oct. I really believe part of H's problems are financial problems at work and he also turned 40 last year and has been in the MLC since then. He wants no responsibilites, and no one to have to rely on him. You owe it to yourself and if you have kids to take care of you first. I know that I have always put everyone else before me. H said the exact opposite however that I was selfish and didn't care who I hurt to get what I wanted. He still has up and down days. One day he will see me and tell me that he still loves me and then 2 days later he can hardly look at me and gives me nothing but LB's and empties what he had in my Love Bank. I've rambled enough. Just want to get across the point that yeah I miss him a ton but I decided that I needed to be strong and think right for my kids and myself and the way that I do that is Plan B and taking care of myself and doing things that I haven't done in a long time. <p>Take care and take it day by day and remember you are the most important person to you at this point so treat yourself that way. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Thanks Free2BMe:<p>Yes she confessed to me on 3/19 that she has a feeling for someone, than she went to see him overseas 3/21 and 3/29 she called me desparately asking me to book the next plane out of that country which I did. Thats when 3/29 she told me about the PA and that the A is over.<p>But Free! I don't understand if the A is dead why is she so deep in the FOG. I can forgive but cannot forget what she has done and the way she has hurt me, but if she does not come out of this FOG soon I think I will have to move on, I am running out of patience, this withdrawl is going on since last 6 months I was not aware of the A and had countless nights without sleep.<p>Will appreciate your feedback.
TheLion

Hi Orchid:<p>I miss the beaches too, especially the North Shore I used to go there very often, it really is a paradise if I have a choice I would want to settle there.<p>Well I wish you all the best orchid, I dont know your story but if you are here I am assuming you have pain.<p>I have ordered those books and will read, by the way I think I have read enough to get a PHD in A by now, but will continue to do that it helps.<p>
Have you taken the emotional needs questionnaire?<p>I have done for myself my W she does not want to even look at it, when they are in FOG they just can't see the real world. too bad for them.<p>TheLion<p>L.[/QB][/QUOTE]

Hi - by Is this a bad dream:<p>"I know that I have always put everyone else before me. "<p>Stop doing that, that is what that hurts, I was similar like you I had suppressed all my needs just to make my wife and our family happy but in the end got the same s*** as you H is telling U.<p>We all need to focus on OURSELF, I, ME and than if something is left in us go and give it to others that the way REAL world operates. Too bad.<p>hang tight and keep patience! thats all we all can do.
TheLion

Hi Lion,<p>Just dropping by quickly....... howz about taking the EN questionnaire for your W. How you think she would respond. You may not be 100% accurate, but it may be an eye opener. If the fog ever starts to lift, you could share it with here. Kinda like the quizzes on the Newlywed game. LOL!!!!<p>Aloha,
L.

Hi Orchid:<p>I told her even gave MB web site address, gave her Steve phone number even told her I will take care of the money part do not worry, she is not ready to listen. I even mentioned about the ENs questionaire no response. I was thinking of printing and giving it to her it wont hurt if she fills out great if she does not no problem there.<p>what do you think ?<p>P.S. By the way I dont think it has anything to do with EN's but I may be wrong the OM was her classmate they had something from start which I am not aware of she denies though... there are lot of complecations like her parents didn't get along well. The OM had always talk to my W about other girls, but she says she had a crush since college but never talked to him until JAN 2000 by the way the OM is overseas my W only met her 3 times in 2 years and that too for a day on each occasion. ...<p>Maybe the only need I may have not met is conversation but I think I did, maybe she needed more....rest all the EN were pretty much covered I would rather think lots of my EN's were never met but I did not go out and had a A just to please or get what I want I was and I am committed to my M thats very important to me.<p>Aloha! TheLion

Sometimes woman and men desperately want something they can't have. Is your W codependant? Whenever a relationship ended for me I was extremely emotional and in a deep depression. Is this typical for her when a relatonship is terminated? Sooner or later I think she will get the picture and start to heal from this rejection. The question is - do you want to stick around in hopes of healing your marriage? It must be tough to be in your situation - I was lucky, my WH never became emotionally attached to his other women, he was just in it for the game then he dropped them.<p>RECOVER REFOCUS REGENERATE<p>BREATHE<p>BREATHE<p>I wish you peace and joy!<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Hi Free2BMe:<p>Maybe you are right she is CO DEPENDENT, I need to read more on this....<p>Looks like you this is her 1st rejection and I am not aware of any before....maybe she is too emotional and in depression. who knows, how can you tell, after so many lies and manipulation the trust is gone, I cannot believe this is happening..<p>"stick around in hopes of healing your marriage?"<p>I am trying my best but honestly I am not sure how long I can survive this...<p>"It must be tough to be in your situation"
Extremely....excruciating pain, crying, not knowing what to do..etc....<p>How are things working out with you..keep us informed..<p>thelion

Good afternoon, TheLion,<p>Is there any way to pull yourself from her pain of her rejection and focus on yourself? I know the pain you describe. A few years ago when my H broke our engagement out of the blue (obviously before we married) I had such gut wrenching heart ache. I was inconsoulable (is that a word), but it's a little different for me this time. I think I still have my walls up from so many years ago and I really don't want to feel that pain. Yet, I know I need to. I have moments of sadness where I shed a tear, but it's nothing major.<p>Since being in true Plan B with no contact, I'm starting to loose the numbness. I'm being positive that I need to feel this, I need to go through this.<p>And I hope he's feeling it too.<p>I'm doing a lot of reflecting and self discovery. I try not to dwell on him or what he's done (or is doing). I did drive past his apartment today on my way into work. <p>Keep the faith!<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

Hi Free2BMe:<p>I am trying to PULL myself out of this emotional ups and down I had 3-4 days which were good but since yesterday I am again in CRIES!!!!<p>"Since being in true Plan B with no contact, I'm starting to loose the numbness. I'm being positive that I need to feel this, I need to go through this."<p>I am with you and exactly at the same situation Plan B and STRONG... Thats all we can do...<p>"inconsoulable (is that a word)"<p>I guess it is and sound exactly like my W..<p>
"And I hope he's feeling it too."
They are in FOG they dont hear, feel anything."
Sorry we are all kidding ourself that they are feeling but in reality they are NOT...<p>You are allowed to drive drive past his apartment but do not peek or let your libido inside. Keep patience...<p>Keep the faith!
Thelion

Hello everyone -
I make every effort not to drive by his apartment, even if it means I go out of my way. When a girl friend picked me up for dinner one night and asked where I wanted to go. Told her anywhere that is close to the apartment. She understood and we had a great evening. I too feel that I'm loosing some of the numbness. Made arrangements for a weekend by myself. When asked if it was business by WH via e-mail. Told him no it isn't business you might say it is a me weekend. Plan on thinking and journaling a lot. That is another outlet for me. Journaling has made it possible for me to actually fall asleep at night when I didn't think it would be possible. I write down stuff that I would tell WF and OW and after I get it down on paper it seems to calm me.
The Lion - I think all of us can relate with the emotional ups and downs. I call them the rollercoaster. Some are caused by WH, a song on the radio or problems with decipline with the kids and he should be here to help handle. I get a little stonger each day that I don't have contact with him. Don't get me wrong, I don't want a DV but I do a lot of things with girlfriends, exercise and eat right. My Counselor told me that I have to take care of myself from day one. It took about 3 weeks for me to realize that I actually handle things better when I have control of a part of my life. You sure as h**l can't control all of it. If we could we wouldn't all be here. Take care and hang tight. Remember day by day and you are important and don't let anyone else tell you otherwise.

I make every effort as well not to drive by his apartment. I figured he wouldn't be home in the middle of the day so I just went by out of sadness. Actually, it's the first time I've been there since the week of May 6th when we moved him in. And I've only called his house about 3 times to pass along messages that were left at this house for him.<p>During the day when I get an urge to call him (after all, he was the first person I would call about anything in my life for 4-5 years) I will call my house and check for messages. I heard somewhere on the TV that most cravings last about 4 minutes and by the time I call and access the VM I don't have the urge to call anymore. Just a trick to get me through! <p>You are doing great, even with the ups and downs! Another day is done.<p>Peace and joy!
[img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TheLion:
<strong>Hi Orchid:<p>I told her even gave MB web site address, gave her Steve phone number even told her I will take care of the money part do not worry, she is not ready to listen. I even mentioned about the ENs questionaire no response. I was thinking of printing and giving it to her it wont hurt if she fills out great if she does not no problem there.<p>what do you think ?<p>P.S. By the way I dont think it has anything to do with EN's but I may be wrong the OM was her classmate they had something from start which I am not aware of she denies though... there are lot of complecations like her parents didn't get along well. The OM had always talk to my W about other girls, but she says she had a crush since college but never talked to him until JAN 2000 by the way the OM is overseas my W only met her 3 times in 2 years and that too for a day on each occasion. ...<p>Maybe the only need I may have not met is conversation but I think I did, maybe she needed more....rest all the EN were pretty much covered I would rather think lots of my EN's were never met but I did not go out and had a A just to please or get what I want I was and I am committed to my M thats very important to me.<p>Aloha! TheLion</strong><hr></blockquote><p>
Hi Lion,<p>Well you won't know for sure until it all comes clean. In the meantime, you read and talk with Steve, Jennifer or a closer MC. You work on you and let her drool!!! LOL!! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] . She will notice changes in you if she is watching and right now you don't know if she is or how much. <p>So take care of yourself and she will let you know with those bluntly subtle.....'are u seeing someone?', you look great - why?, You never did that for me!!!, etc. More babble. Recognize and regard it as such. Reply to what makes sense. Don't get suckered into the babble. <p>Take care,
L.

Hi - Is this a bad dream:<p>Thanks for the reply, hang in there, BD, try to be away from his apt as far as you can, thats what I am trying so that my W does not hurt me anymore than she has.<p>Keep journaling, it will help....<p>"Some are caused by WH, a song on the radio or problems with decipline with the kids and he should be here to help handle."<p>You are right whenever I hear the song the terars roll down my cheeks, I cannot help it....<p>Thanks once again!
The Lion

Hi Free2BMe:<p>Dont go there, dont visit the apt it will only bring back the emotional roll - coaster... It will not help. Try to be away from the apt.<p>You are doing great, even with the ups and downs! Another day is done.<p>Yup, hanging in there, and feeling a lot better.
How about you Free, keep us posted.<p>TheLion

Hi Orchid:<p>Thanks orchid, I had a good weekend, I had my LASIK eye surgery on Friday, It went great,<p>I need to ask you ? I did not tell my W about the surgery, though she works at the same place as my eye doctor even the same floor just 3 suite across the Hall.<p>I took a cab and got my surgery done and took a cab back, it felt great to do things on your own.<p>She called me sat, and wanted to meet I told her about the surgery and she was like WHAT ? she came to my apt brought some lunch, we both ate together. It was nice, than she asked me what made you decide to get the surgery done, I told her all this time I was thinking and doing things for you and the family, and this is something I wanted to do for myself, she was SHOCKED, well anyway, What do you make of all this is she peeping thru the FOG to see what is going on the real world, or is this just a trick to start the emotional trip again.<p>I am fine and taking things as it comes but will appreciate your thoughts...<p>Anyone else have any comments/advise please feel free to jump in.<p>TheLion

Morning Lion, <p>At least it is still morning out here. I just got back from taking lunch and misc things for my son's field trip. It is a bike ride to a local park up the street, a looooooong ride. LOL!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Anyway, I personally think you did good. You showed that you are very capable of moving forward with or without her. Why that fog makes them think it is ok to do stuff to their spouses but how dare you move forward for yourself, it outside this logical brain. When I decided I was not going to let him hold me back anymore, he got jealous? Can U believe it? Accused me of having an A and even told the OW. She called me and told me to stop making up stories. Arrrgh..... [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] LOL! <p>Anyway, I felt better and I hope you do also. See at that point the WS started showing some care in my direction and that pi$$ed of the OW bigtime. So you never know what will happen. That is why it is important for you to concentrate on yourself. <p>When she wants to be good to her family and you all can afford, hey take advantage of it and enjoy it. You all deserve that and more. That fact that later she may accuse you all of using her, blow that kind of talk off. Remind her that was her choice and like I like to tell the WS and even now that he back to being an H, I tell him 'well you know honey, I can't tell you what to do!'. <p>Take care,

TheLion,<p>You know those little crumbs they throw our way are just part of the game to see how we react. She may be sincere, but take it for what it may be. Don't get your hopes up. I think that's what got my H, he deliberately called to lie to me 2 weeks ago so I broke all contact and told him I refuse to play the parent role anymore. I know he wanted to get me upset and scream and yell (maybe to justify our nonexistance), but I pulled myself out of the game. I think that's why he wrote the letter - I have never reacted by not reacting. Make sense to you?<p>As for me, well, a good friend of ours passed away suddenly this morning so we are breaking the no contact right now. I'm nervous about it, but I don't want to do this alone. What do you think?<p>How are you feeling now that a few days have past since the surgery? I wish you a speedy recovery!<p> [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Hi Free:<p>Thank you for your comments, I agree the CRUMBS is what it is ? and honestly I did not fall for it and it makes them mad... I like it...<p>As for the loss of your friend, my sympathies, even though you break your B try to be away from the R talk during this crisis....<p>I am recovering fine have another appointment for a check up on Wednesday..all look good, thank you for asking...<p>You all have a nice evening...
Take Care! TheLion - The betrayed one!

Hi Orchid:<p>Thanks for your comments... It really helps to understand what we all are going thru...<p>"he got jealous? Can U believe it? Accused me of having an A and even told the OW."<p>yes, that is what happened how dare you make up decisions without me that hurt them the WS... Well they need to wake up...<p>I am concentrating on myself and it has helped a lot.. I think I can weather this storm, with or without her....<p>TheLion - The betrayed one!

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TheLion:
<strong>Hi Orchid:
I am concentrating on myself and it has helped a lot.. I think I can weather this storm, with or without her....<p>TheLion - The betrayed one!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>That's the spirit Lion. Keep up the good work.

Hello Everyone!<p>I dont know if the plan B is working but I have been getting a lot of phone calls from my W but no talk of R its all about the house we are building and other stuff, I tried to keep it short 30 sec to 1 minute, but I have a feeling she wants to drag on the conversation longer and wants to talk to me, is this a sign that they peeking out of the FOG into the real world, I dont want to get my hopes up, but well what the heck.. <p>I want to be strong and hang in there, I have not told her about the plan B and have not written a letter yet, I personally think it is time to do that but just want to think it over for 2 weeks and do it.<p>Please let me have your comments, suggestions or any advise with experience I will take it all!<p>TheLion - The betrayed one!

Orchid - I can believe that he got jealous. My WH actually got upset because I planned a vacation to go and see my parents some time this summer with the kids. He told me that I was planning my future which I had every right to do but seemed like I was trying to look good in the kids eyes. Told him that I have every right to plan my future as he has every right to plan his. I would love for him to be a part of that future but he had to let me know. Made plans to go to a function out of town and asked him to keep son for the weekend (Fathers Day weekend mind you) and he didn't have a problem keeping him but assumed that I was going with someone. I laughed at him and told him no actually I'm going by myself because I need some time to think and I don't get that much time to myself to just think. He got upset because I bought new things for the bedroom and changed the colors in there. I explained to him that it was easy for him to go to bed at the apartment where we had never slept together but it was extremely hard for me to go up to that bedroom everynight and get into the bed that we had slept together in for more than 20 years. This all happened this weekend. Prior to that I was Plan B - ing so didn't have to listen to him. I am moving forward in my life and taking care of myself. That is the only thing you can do.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TheLion:
<strong>Hello Everyone!<p>I dont know if the plan B is working but I have been getting a lot of phone calls from my W but no talk of R its all about the house we are building and other stuff, I tried to keep it short 30 sec to 1 minute, but I have a feeling she wants to drag on the conversation longer and wants to talk to me, is this a sign that they peeking out of the FOG into the real world, I dont want to get my hopes up, but well what the heck.. <p>I want to be strong and hang in there, I have not told her about the plan B and have not written a letter yet, I personally think it is time to do that but just want to think it over for 2 weeks and do it.<p>Please let me have your comments, suggestions or any advise with experience I will take it all!<p>TheLion - The betrayed one!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>It looks like you are doing the right things Lion.<p>Keeping your conversations short and strictly related to the building of the house is good because you are showing her that you do not need her while she is having her affair. You are doing what a lot of BS's fail to do which is to stop beign clingy and instead of attracting their WS's back to them, they end up pushing them further into the arms of the OP's. So it's not surprising that your WW is calling you with the pretext of the house and wants to extend the conversations beyond the scope of the house. She is at the very least, curious as to what is happening in your life because it may mean that she may no longer have the option of returning to you and the marriage. But don't take this as a sign that her affair is over or winding down and she wants to come back to you and work on the marriage. For this to be the case, she herself will have to tell you that it's over and wants to return to you.<p>Continue by avoiding love busters and detaching emotionally. These two can help you slow down the withdrawl of love units her affair is taking from your love bank and keep you sane by not riding the emotional rollecoaster ride.<p>I would advise that you do not go into plan B unless you are prepared to divorce her at the end of it. Plan B should only be implemented when there is very little love left for her and your finger is itching to dial a divorce attorney.

Thanks TooMuchCoffeeMan:<p>I appreciate all your advise, but my problem is HOW LONG ?<p>I know it is not long enough, but for a person like me who makes decisions either way I need to decide, I cannot PROCAST - or not make a choice, thats not who I am and she is forcing me to make a decision which is wrong. I am in catch 22<p>I want to write plan B letter and to a certain point accept D as the last resort, but I need to take action, I cant just sit around because she knows that I will be there always so she does not have any emergency to make a decision she wants to enjoy BOTH, which unfortunately is unfair... Please advise!<p>By the way she is going to the counseling locally but the counselor says she is still confused and in the FOG cannot decide mode....<p>Help!!!
The Lion - The Betrayed one!

Hi Lion:<p>How long? well when is your new house going to be finished? and if your W decides that she is not going to move out of the new house, are you willing to move out?. If you want to go into plan B with no contact then you have to answer the above questions first.<p>In the meantime I would suggest you start taking care of yourself. Go out to the movies, go out dancing with friends, take a small vacation, buy yourself some brand new clothes, enroll in a gym, take a self improvement class, etc. Anything that will stop you from obsessing about your W and the M. But avoid at all costs from developing close frienships with other women because you are so vulnerable to falling into an affair of your own.

Hi TooMuchCoffeeMan:<p>D - Day 3/19/02
W moved out - 4/11/02
Withdrawl - 6 months
A - EA/PA (PA - short one night) - 2 years or more
OM - class mate in college...
OM - Overseas<p>W says its over the OM is not interested, however, W cannot let go still keeps e-mailing and calling OM...Obsessed to extreme.!<p>House will be complete 6/20/02 approx. I will be moving in alone in the NEW house.<p>I am doing all the things you have mentioned, but when I go to Bed or read, I am in tears all again, this is on my mind first thing when I wake up again tears roll down my cheeks... Its hard for me to control. I am trying to control while typing this post...<p>One more question, I have read half of the SAA I really like it, lots of similarity with the example of SUE and JON.. Do you think I should give her to read I know she will shrug it off but anyway if she has the book maybe someday she might read, what do you think ?<p>By the way I gave her the EN questionaire, but no answer yet it has been a week.. my bet is the OM has only met her CONVERSATION need thats all, I was good at it also, but may be fall short, and you cannot converse if your W is not honest and open with you.. Its hard!<p>Look forward to your advise coffeman!
thelion - The Betrayed One!

Lion:<p>It hurts me to see you in this pain - Oh how I know your pain. Unfortunately the pain you feel is because your love for your W is real and she is hurting you by giving her love to OM.<p>Unfortunately your W is very much in the 'fog' and nothing you say or do will really register in her radar. You could give her a copy of SAA and HNHN as a parting gift. Whether she reads them or not no one but God can say for sure just don't try to push her to read them.<p>I would suggest that you do not go into plan B as a result of your present emotional state. You still have a lot of love left for you W and your d-day is less than two months old. I would like to suggest that you go see a doctor about prescibing you some anti-depressants.<p>Are you in counseling right now?

Hello coffeman:<p>thanks for all your help. I cannot take this pain longer, I know I should be patient, but unfortunately I cannot see that it will work. My W is as I said extremely obsessed with this, even though the OM does not want anything she is pushing to the limit where I can take it anymore.<p>I am ready to accept the D and move on, though it is extremely difficult but I have to get the strength and courage to stand it.<p>I have been to a local counselor for last 6 weeks than stopped it is not helping at all, also I spoke to Steve, he says unless my W talks to him there is not a whole lot we can achieve, WHY do I have to be the one trying everything to save this M when actually I have not done anything wrong that is something my rational mind would not accept.<p>Honestly, I trusted and loved my W for last 7 years, she accept no one can love her the way I do and care for her, not even her parents, she acknowlege that but still obsessed with the A, I do not understand this and I never will....<p>Coffeman I really love this women from my heart and will do anything to make this work, but I will not force her to love me, I know I cannot do that she is the one who needs to get out of the FOG, if its late, thats her loss and mine too..<p>Please help me decide what I should do ? <p>TheLion

I'll repeat my advise that you seek out a doctor and have him/her prescribe you some anti-depressants. Your emotional state is dictating your actions and can make you do something that both of you might regret later on

OK TooMuchCoffeeMan:<p>I will try to do that. Though I feel fine, I am working, eating, doing the routine things, even sleeping 8 hours, playing games etc.. sports..<p>But this is not going to go away, do you think WW will come out of FOG ? I don't know and now one has that answer and that is what is driving my decision...<p>I will keep you updated...Lot of work, house is getting finished plumber, electrician painters.. and the whole nine yards keep me extremely busy.....<p>You take care!
theLion

Hi Lion,<p>Your decision needs to be made by you for you. Whether your W is in the fog or out is up to her. You can show here where you are at but it is up to her to walk out of the fog herself. <p>Does that info help?<p>L.

Hi Lion:<p>You have two choices. One is to call it quits and file for divorce and move on. The other choice is to try your best, via the MB concepts, to try to save your marriage. But you have to committ to one or the other, not be committed to one this day and then committed to the other the next day. So which is it going to be Lion? <p>If you chose to fight for your marriage, then you will have to detach emotionally from your WW while she is still in the A that has her in the 'fog'. This is where the anti-depressants can help you tremendously to cope with the ordeal of the A. They can help get you off the emotional rollercoaster ride while you concentrate on becoming a better person thru plan A - yes you can plan A even in her absence -and preserve what little love may be left for her in your love bank by going to plan B.<p>If you are absolutely, positively sure that you've had enough of her and no longer have any more love left to even want to try to save your marriage, then file for divorce now and move on. Otherwise I would suggest you try to save your marriage via the MB way and if - let's say a year from now - she is still in the same spot then you will have the knowledge that you tried your best but that she just doesn't want to be your W anymore.<p>Unfortunately you won't be able to committ to one or the other until you get a grip on your emotions. You yourself said that you are fine during the day but at night you are an emotional basket case. So go see your doctor for those anti-depressants, ok?

Dear Lion,
I've been in the same boat for about a year. EA started in May 2001 - she told me she loved OM in September but also told me she loved me and was coming home to me. She was in a neutral site away from both of us to "work out her feelings" she said. She came home end of september, stayed for a week then went to OM's. She was originally going for 3 weeks, but told me that she would go for 4 days only. She said she would return in four days and show me that I was the man she loved. She ended up staying for three weeks. She then returned home for a week, packed up her stuff, and drove off to stay at OM's. She called me a few times while at OM's telling me she loved me and begging me to go spend the holidays with her at her parents. Anyways this rollecoaster hell continued till April when she finally returned for good. OM followed her to our house and needed to talk. She told him that her life was with me now. One problem she is pregnant with OM's child! She is now in therapy heavy in the FOG with no contact with OM. I told her tonight that we will no longer have contact with each other until she is ready to be with me and wants to make our marriage work. Tonight she told me she loves OM and she did not have an affair because she told me she was in love with him before she ever slept with him. That was too much for me to hear and I went with Plan B. I have been very patient for a year now. I have had enough. It was very hard, very hard. It feels better to be able to talk to others who have experienced hells like these. Thanks everyone for your support.

Hi Orchid:<p>Thanks for the info, yes it does help.<p>TheLion

Hi TooMuchCoffeeMan & Orchid, and anyone who wants to respond...<p>I really appreciate your feedbacks, however, here is my problem.<p>My Rational mind is ready for D because
(1) I cannot see myself trusting my WW after so many betrayals, lies, deceit, torture, pain and still lieing...
(2) My 1st EN is HONESTY & OPENNESS, I am a very honest person and believed till date that my WW was the same, but the reality is different.
(3) Why should I torture myself for the rest of my life, when I have a choice to STOP LOSS and move on. ?<p>My emotions speak differently.
(1) I love my wife and was/and presently and in the future ready to meet all her EN's.
(2) If a miracle happens and she gets out of the FOG and ready to work on this M, there is a chance we can have a good M... though I myself doubt it.
(3) i am ready to work hard to save this M, I am a fighter and will take any challege that comes my way...
(4) I really, really loved this women with all sincereity, i gave her everything I had, monetary, physically, emotinally... you name it.<p>Here is the problem, I constantly battle between my rational mind and emotions, what shall I do, I am pretty much set on rational thinking...Will appreciate all the help I can get to disect this humongous analogy!!!!!<p>please help!
TheLion

What you are describing is what all of us have gone thru at one time in our lives.<p>When we were children our parents decided for us what was in our best interests. But now that we are adults we must rely on what our accumulated wisdom tells us what's right for us.<p>You say that you are much set on the rational side that tells you to end your marriage and you state all the reasons why it's wise to end your marriage and move on. But your emotional side says not to do it because you still have strong feelings for her. This tug of war tears you apart because you want resolution on way or another.<p>I would like for you to consider this thought for a moment Lion. Let's say you get divorce and move on with your life and you start healing and later on meet a woman for whom you develop strong feelings of love. Everything is going great when out of the blue your xW appears on the scene and she confesses to you how stupid she was in leaving you for another man and now realizes how much she loves you. If you still harbor strong feelings for her you will find yourself in the unenviable position of beign in love with two women and torn as to which you should let go. This situation is not something out of Hollywood, because there have been a few women posters that have had that exact situation happen to them. <p>My point in all of this is that you can not ignore your emotional side that tells you to wait for your WW to see if she wakes up from her fantasy and realizes how much you love her and want her. Sure it hurts like hell to continue to wait for her to come out of the fog, but it's better that the hurt runs it's course NOW - and your WW's love bank account gets closed out - than to have to deal with this later on in the future when you might find yourself involved with somebody else and might end up betraying the new woman in your life much like your present W has done to you.<p>So think well Lion.

Too much coffee your last bit of advice was really good for me as well. I am still very much in love with my wife and I too do not want to give up but when I think as The Lion said rationally it is very difficult for me to see my marriage every really working again. In addition to the rationalizations that The Lion made about his situation I have to add one more to mine. My W is pregnant with OM which makes my situation a little more complicated. But you are so right, I am still in love with my wife and I dread facing the possibility of her looking for me a year from now with a young baby in her arms totally forgiveful and ready to return to me and I have found someone else. I will be totally torn because I am going to want to take her into my arms and tell her that everything will be okay honey. I will take care of you and the baby. Don't worry.

I'm glad that my advice for TheLion helped you too Tofu. And yes I am very aware of your situation since I have contributed a few posts to your thread at the pregnancy/other child bb. In fact in your situation I would strongly consider whether you should stay married if your WW is hellbent on having OM as part of the child's life because his presence will be a sabotaging force for your marital recovery. Divorcing your WW does not mean you will abandon her or stop having a relationship with her, but it will help you detach emotionally from the situation somewhat while limiting the financial impact which at this moment you do not seem to be very appreciative of. It may also be a wake up call to your WW if she knows that you are divorcing her because she will know that she will not have any emotional,moral or legal claim to you.

LIsten to your rational side. Feelings change from one day to another and are not a reliable indicator as can be seen from your wife's actions. Look at your wife's actions not what you wish for.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by tomaz:
<strong>LIsten to your rational side. Feelings change from one day to another and are not a reliable indicator as can be seen from your wife's actions. Look at your wife's actions not what you wish for.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>But sometimes the rational side can get seduced or corrupted by the emotional urgency for a speedy resolution that in the long run may not be in our best emotional and rational best interests.

Hi TooMuchCoffeeMan:<p>I have come to a conclusion that rational mind is the way to go because of the following reasons.<p>I understand and can relate to your example, in that case I myself have to make a determination again with (the rational mind) and I would not accept my W back after one year because I am committed to the other women, I cannot make her the new women suffer the pain and agony I have suffered <p>(I cannot even think of putting some one thru this pain not even one of my worst enemies)<p>This is in my opinion worst than DEATH itself. I am tired and sick of it.<p>Also, dont you think the WW has made her decisions based on emotions and not rationalization that is the reason we all are in this mess. <p>Wouldn't I be making the same mistake if I go with my emotions and wait (1 year) or forever, and had to go thru this all over again..<p>To me at this point rational decision seems right but maybe you can explain to me in a better way or with some advise, I know and I am suppressing my emotions to make the right decision, to be honest I am 33 year old Man but still I cry like a baby and cannot stop crying but this is something I have to overcome to make the correct decision.<p>Please help me decide ?
TheLion

Hi TooMuchCoffeeMan:<p>This is my problem, WW has conversation as her 1st EN the reason we do not connect is I am very honest person and believe in TRUTH however, she says some things and certain time you do not have to tell the truth, I cannot live with that...<p>She is still in FOG, she does not want my parents to know about the A, however, I want to tell them the truth, I think that is the right thing to do..<p>We both have to face the truth, with the world, I will be at peace with myself and with her and I even told her I am willing to accept her the way she is eventhough the world knows about her A.<p>Am I right or wrong ? should I or should'nt I.<p>To me it also sounded like a threat if you tell your parents than it is over otherwise I am still thinking of coming back.<p>By the way you can read my thread at Plan B/Need advise...<p>Please help me sort this out ?<p>thanks! thelion!

Ok Lion I'd like to propose a little experiment to you. Since you will go with your rational side on this one, tomorrow I want you to contact a divorce attorney and start the divorce proceedings to terminate your marriage. Call your WW and tell her to get herself an attorney because you have started the divorce proceedings and there is no changing your mind. Do not accept any of her calls or visits, you are done with her for the rest of your life.<p>Having second thoughts? why? if you follow your rational side then this is the only way for you to go.<p>My point in all this is to show you that you can not shut your emotions or feelings when they are very strong towards her. The only way is for you to lose all love and not care for her anymore. Can you honestly say that you do not care about her anymore? Your posts betray you Lion, you are a very emotional individual because you are a human beign that has been hurt in one of the most painful ways possible. It seems to me that you are using the rational side as an excuse to runaway from your emotional side beign hurt but that's ok because we all have that same tendency of running away from the things that have caused us pain instead of dealing with them and learning from them.<p>Look if you were 100% rational you wouldn't even be here asking for advise because you would have been certain that divorce was the only solution to your problem. So I humbly suggest that you consider suffering a little bit longer so that your love for your WW will be totally purged from your soul and then you will no longer be susceptible to her coming back at a future date to sabotage any future relationship you might develop. Remember the old saying that which does not kill me only makes me stronger. You WILL be stronger if you tough it out a little bit longer.

Thanks TooMuchCoffeeMan:<p>I agree to fight, well how long ? maybe till the end of the year ? i dont know..<p>Did you read my recent ?
Please tell me what should I do ?<p>Should I tell my parents or not ?<p>TheLION

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TheLion:
<strong>Hi TooMuchCoffeeMan:<p>This is my problem, WW has conversation as her 1st EN the reason we do not connect is I am very honest person and believe in TRUTH however, she says some things and certain time you do not have to tell the truth, I cannot live with that...<p>She is still in FOG, she does not want my parents to know about the A, however, I want to tell them the truth, I think that is the right thing to do..<p>We both have to face the truth, with the world, I will be at peace with myself and with her and I even told her I am willing to accept her the way she is eventhough the world knows about her A.<p>Am I right or wrong ? should I or should'nt I.<p>To me it also sounded like a threat if you tell your parents than it is over otherwise I am still thinking of coming back.<p>By the way you can read my thread at Plan B/Need advise...<p>Please help me sort this out ?<p>thanks! thelion!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>
Your WW is definetely deep in the 'fog' when she tells you that she doesn't want you to tell your parents about her A. This would make sense if she ended her A, ended all contact with OM and asked for your forgiveness and comitted herself to counseling and marital recovery. But why should she be rewarded for her A when she is still deep in it? If she contacts you and brings this matter up, just tell her that since the continuation of her A will bring the inevitable divorce, that the truth will come out sooner or later and that they will have to be told, so why not now?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TheLion:
<strong>Thanks TooMuchCoffeeMan:<p>I agree to fight, well how long ? maybe till the end of the year ? i dont know..<p>Did you read my recent ?
Please tell me what should I do ?<p>Should I tell my parents or not ?<p>TheLION</strong><hr></blockquote><p>How long? That can only be answered by you. Every day that passes and she continues in her A is one more day that she withdraws more love units from your love bank and there will come a day when her love account will be empty and at that point you she will have essentially closed her account at TheLion First Trust National Love Bank [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] and at that point you will no longer have anymore love for her that even if she ended her A, ended contact with OM, and promised to be a true wife committed to marital recovery, you will no longer want her back in your life. At this point you WILL be ready for divorce and moving on with your life.<p>I would tell your parents but only after you talk to her and tell her that her continuation of her A will inevitably lead to divorce, and that they will find out the truth sooner or later, so why not now since there doesn't seem to be the slightest probability that she will end her A, end her contact with OM and committ to marital recovery.

I agree with you TooMuchCoffeeMan:<p>I have tried to tell her the same thing but when WW are in FOG nothing gets thru to them.<p>I have made a decision to tell my parents and the whole world that my W had an A..<p>Even after this she is more than welcome to come back and work on the M, I dont care what the world things as long as we both can work on our M and be satisfied with our love bank balances, thats all that matters...<p>What do you think ?<p>thelion

Oh I agree wholeheartedly with your decision.<p>I beleive that many WS that are deep in the 'fog' want to keep good relations with their in laws and are afraid that once the truth of the A is revealed to them, they will be forever shunned by them.<p>It's one thing when you've got a WS that totally ends the A once it's discovered by the BS. In that case I would be more simpathetic to not let my folks and friends know about the A because WS has done the right thing and wants to repair the damage to the M.<p>But when a WS is still continuing with the A even after d-day and shows no sign of ending it, I have no qualms about letting friends and relatives know the truth. If the WS doesn't like the fact that s/he will be shunned by the his/her in-laws well tough because they do not deserve to be rewarded by the BS for their continued thoughtlesness.<p>If she again tells you she is angry with you for telling friends and relatives about her A, ask her if her A is so right in her eyes why would she try to hide it from others?

Hi Lion,<p>Wow. Well I just read through your thread. Ok, so now you have to read through mine &#8211; entirely!<p>Nah, but I was wondering what advice Steve had. I never was really clear on whether he advised you to do a Plan A or a Plan B. In a Plan A, you would be meeting her EN&#8217;s, being pleasant, maybe even dating per se. In a Plan B, no contact unless absolutely necessary. Messages, finances, business would all be conducted through a mutual friend. There would be no contact.<p>You seem to be doing the partial contact, but little interaction. Not sure what message this sends. I guess I always thought it was Plan A, or Plan B, but no Plan A/B.<p>Finally, you talked about so much of this just being an EA, because they rarely saw each other in person. Let me tell you, the EA&#8217;s are probably harder to break. Or that&#8217;s my opinion. My wife had an EA, which was also very infrequently physical, for about 2-1/2 years. Until D-day and no-contact, she was in the fog bigtime. I Plan A&#8217;d for 15 months, with MB-coaching the entire time, but neither Jenn or myself knew about the affair. It seemed to be getting very little returns, then I was about ready to quit, then my wife confessed. And it all ended. <p>The withdrawal from OM lasted about two strong months, then has been off/on since. She abhors the counseling/coaching, but has participated enough to know the concepts and is starting to do her own Plan A. D-day was about six months ago. She has times where she really misses him, and I think some times even where she just feels used. She misses the constant attention of lots of e-mails from him each day, talking on the phone, etc. But it&#8217;s getting better. And, of course, I try to fill that need myself now.<p>Ok, now I&#8217;m rambling. I was just wondering what Steve&#8217;s recommendation was re: Plan A or B. Or to just continue doing what you&#8217;re doing.<p>P<p>PS. I think we can trust again. I know after having my heart dragged through the mud for years, I&#8217;m starting to have feelings for my wife again. For the longest time, my only motivation in continuing to work on this was to keep a family together for young daughter. That&#8217;s changing. At the same time though, there are no secret accounts, passwords, or unknown time anymore. It will take a while before trust is ever restored. Yes, openness and honesty, regardless of the message from her (like &#8220;I&#8217;m feeling bad now, because I miss what I had with OM), goes a long way toward restoring trust. And sometimes testing your ability not to LB!

Hello TooMuchCoffeeMan:<p>I agree! with you and though I am still confused about what I should do ? I am leaning towards telling my parents the truth, I have 24 hours to make that decision, most likely I will tell them, how bad can the truth be....<p>BTW, new update, W ready to counsel together not with MB yet but the local counselor, but I think her decision is based on the fact that I will tell everything to my parents.... I dont want that I want her to come back for me and not just to save her shame... What do you think ?<p>second, she filled EN quest, though I dont know how much familiar she is with the MB principle guess what, CONVERSATION is her 1st need which I always thought, she seems very unhappy with the way I converse with her... Is this a bias timing maybe the OM is meeting that need that is why she says that. Or perhaps that is the truth, I need to know how to fulfill her need.. Need to learn I guess the way that pleases her the best.. or deposit max love units..<p>Third, I gave SAA to her to read, I am not positive if she would read, I have filled EN quest in the book and told her that she needs to look at it, mine 1st EN is HONESTY but guess what honesty is not her need not in the 1st 7-8 needs, that is where were our differences are... I need complete honesty and openness but she still does believe certain things and certain times you can lie and hide... which I totally disagree...<p>my second EN is SF her is 3rd she says she is happy to get SF but not happy the way we do it, I never knew that, however, same is true for me my SF was never fulfilled I still have several fantasies and the move which I want her to perform which she thinks she cannot do or fulfill so I kind of suppressed it for long, so I am a dissatisfied with SF...<p>For her SF once a month or never is good, but for me 2 times a week is a necessity...like breathing...<p>Well enough for now coffee, please disect and give me your comments, you have been a great help all along, I really appreciate that...<p>TheLion

Hi persistant:<p>Give me a link to your thread, I would like to read your story. Thanks!<p>I just talked to steve once and he mentioned that unless my W talks to him we cannot do much.<p>Yes you are correct I am in Plan A/B sort of, because I have no choice we are building a house and need constant touch, though I am doing most of the work, I still want her in our decision making...who know what future hold for us.<p>I agree with you EA are more difficult to get over, I am still struggling with it on a daily basis..<p>However, I have to salute to you for your patience, I am running out of steam and I dont know how long I can take this, but you seem to handle it very well, maybe different personalities... Good Luck and keep up the good work... you will conquer your love.<p>In my case they were the best friends as well since college, that makes it hard, she just does not want to CLOSE and no contact she still emails him and call him, however, as far as I am aware that he is not interested in any relationship whatsoever, but my W is extremely obsessed with it. The only EN need the OM was meeting was conversation that too because he is single has nothing to do, I am paying for the telephone bills, OM has nothing to loose....<p>The worst part is IF there is no COMPLETE CLOSURE the M recovery is impossible and thats where I am and I dont know about you ?<p>Please hold your LB's that is the key and with time and patience we all learn that, I wish you all the luck in getting back your W and have a wonderful and fulfilling relationship.<p>TheLion

Hi Lion,<p>Actually, I was just kidding about you reading my post entirely. If you want though, it's here:<p>Persistant's JFO Post<p>BTW, it's 142, uh now 143 pages long! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] But if you're really interested, it starts about D-day and goes to present. About six months. Plus a couple of other characters jump in with their own stories too.<p>Anyway, I guess my point is that I think you either need to be in Plan A, making changes to yourself and showing her you've changed into something desirable; or in Plan B hardlining her to change and end the affair before you'll provide any support or meet any EN's. If she's going to counseling, and trying to work through the affair, my recommendation would certainly be Plan A. But I thought Steve would have suggested the same.<p>P

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TheLion:
<strong>Hello TooMuchCoffeeMan:<p>I agree! with you and though I am still confused about what I should do ? I am leaning towards telling my parents the truth, I have 24 hours to make that decision, most likely I will tell them, how bad can the truth be.... </strong><hr></blockquote><p>What's so magical about 24 hrs? Again calmly ask her if what she is doing is not bad then why does she object you telling your friends and relatives about it? If she gives you something like they wouldn't understand because you would paint a very negative picture of the situation and make her look like the villain in their eyes, then propose to her to accompany you so that she can give her side of the story when you go tell them. Chances are she will say no at which point say to her 'fine I'll proceed to tell them myself' and then leave her alone to think of what you told her. But before you leave her don't give her a time limit as to how long it will be before you let the world know about her A.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>BTW, new update, W ready to counsel together not with MB yet but the local counselor, but I think her decision is based on the fact that I will tell everything to my parents.... I dont want that I want her to come back for me and not just to save her shame... What do you think ?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Doesn't matter what her motivation for going to counseling is. Counseling will hopefully make her look inside herself and maybe see what she is doing not only to you but to herself.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>second, she filled EN quest, though I dont know how much familiar she is with the MB principle guess what, CONVERSATION is her 1st need which I always thought, she seems very unhappy with the way I converse with her... Is this a bias timing maybe the OM is meeting that need that is why she says that. Or perhaps that is the truth, I need to know how to fulfill her need.. Need to learn I guess the way that pleases her the best.. or deposit max love units..</strong><hr></blockquote><p>You may want to read the book 'Men are from Mars ,Women are from Venus' to help you to improve your conversation skills with your W.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>Third, I gave SAA to her to read, I am not positive if she would read, I have filled EN quest in the book and told her that she needs to look at it, mine 1st EN is HONESTY but guess what honesty is not her need not in the 1st 7-8 needs, that is where were our differences are... I need complete honesty and openness but she still does believe certain things and certain times you can lie and hide... which I totally disagree...</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Good move in giving her the book because there is the possibility that she will read it, and make her think that her A is not the answer to her problems.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>my second EN is SF her is 3rd she says she is happy to get SF but not happy the way we do it, I never knew that, however, same is true for me my SF was never fulfilled I still have several fantasies and the move which I want her to perform which she thinks she cannot do or fulfill so I kind of suppressed it for long, so I am a dissatisfied with SF...<p>For her SF once a month or never is good, but for me 2 times a week is a necessity...like breathing...<p>Well enough for now coffee, please disect and give me your comments, you have been a great help all along, I really appreciate that...<p>TheLion</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Well I hate to break the news to her but almost no OM is going to want to be with a woman that wants sex once a month. SF is, if not the top EN of most men, then most certainly one of the top 3 on the list. Hopefully by opening herself to let you meet her most important EN's she will in kind reciprocate with meeting your most important EN's.<p>Overall I would have to say that your post was a very positive update. I humbly suggest that you continue to plan A.

Hi Mr. Lion - Orchid called out for reinforcements and I think I need to give you a dose of tough love. Being a Lion, you can take it. Now, sit down, this is gonna hurt. I didn't read your entire thread, so if this plows old ground, forgive me.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TheLion:
<strong>If your WH is not ready to give up the OW I strongly believe Plan B is the best option for people like us, who have not done anything wrong and are still suffering the aftermath of the crap.
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Not done anything wrong, huh? I don't believe you.<p>You may BELIEVE you didn't do anything wrong, but you did. Guaranteed.<p>This does not mean what you did wrong justifies her affair. What it DOES mean is that you have some responsibility for creating the poor marital environment that made her decision to have an affair justifiable in her mind.<p>Enter Plan A.<p>Plan A is all about YOU finding out what YOU did wrong and fixing it. Until you've done this, Plan B shouldn't even be in your vocabulary. While you're doing this, you kiss her a$$.<p>You said she's calling and wanting to talk to you? DO IT!!! This is the perfect opportunity to show her that you're the better man. Don't turn her off!! That just adds to her justification!<p>Repeat after me: Plan A Plan A Plan A Plan A Plan A Plan A Plan A Plan A Plan A Plan A Plan A Plan A Plan A Plan A Plan A Plan A Plan A Plan A Plan A Plan A Plan A Plan A Plan A <p>There is NOTHING, NOTHING, NOTHING you can do to end the affair. But it will end. To hasten its end, do not interfere with it. While it's ending, make yourself into the best Lion you can be. This is what Plan A is all about. If you get the opportunity to meet some of her ENs, jump at the chance. Lastly, but most importantly, don't LB.<p>Now, tell us about some things you need to improve. If you don't know, ask HER.<p>WAT<p>[ June 14, 2002: Message edited by: worthatry ]</p>

Yeah WAT,<p>Yes, I guess I have been too subtle with The Lion. Like I tried to say, you either Plan A or Plan B. What he&#8217;s doing now is some mix, and I&#8217;m sure sending the wrong message. &#8220;I care for you, but can only talk to you for a minute.&#8221;<p>Another thing &#8211; what&#8217;s with the need to tell your relatives about your wife&#8217;s indiscretion? I still don&#8217;t buy that &#8220;I must tell, or otherwise it would by a lie.&#8221; Is this how you treat your wife? It&#8217;s certainly not part of a &#8220;see how I have changed, we CAN have a good marriage, Plan A.&#8221; It&#8217;s nothing but retribution and hurt because she hurt you. Don&#8217;t try to disguise it as anything else. If you want to know what to tell your parents because the two of you aren&#8217;t living together, tell them that the two of you are having difficulties in your marriage that you are working through. Besides, your wife is in counseling isn&#8217;t she? That sounds like working on it to me.<p>I don&#8217;t think the recommendation would ever be to Plan B without first doing a serious, deliberate Plan A. The &#8220;I&#8217;ve done nothing wrong in my marriage&#8221; is not a believable stance. We&#8217;ve all done things wrong. If you were perfect, she wouldn&#8217;t have found the other man attractive.<p>It&#8217;s time to get your stuff together and do a real Plan A.<p>P<p>PS. I&#8217;m also confused about the affair. Is it still going on or not? At this point though, it doesn&#8217;t matter. After you&#8217;ve worked on YOU, then it will matter. <p>PSS. Surely, after even just 1-2 sessions with Steve, the two of you talked about what you should be doing. What did her recommend? I don't buy the "can't do anything until wife participates" thing. I counseled with Jennifer for over a year before my wife ever picked up the phone to talk to her. Plan A coaching.

Hello TooMuchCoffeeMan:<p>My parents are visiting me today from out of state, that was magical about 24 hours.....<p>I am trying plan A, but FOG is so thick I dont know how long I can sustain it, also, do I really want this...<p>This is the W I gave everything, my life, money, my heart, my soul, my flesh, and she even doesn't care or have remorse... Honestly I just found out the EA might be 3-4 years or b4 the M, how can you tell when you cant even differentiate between what is TRUTH and Lie ???? Honestly I am giving up....<p>Thanks Coffee! you have been a great help, hope all is well with your daughters, take care of them.<p>TheLion....

Hi worthatry:<p>I agree with you and respect your frank and honest opinion.<p>However, A is not a solution to a Marital problem, if you have a problem in the marriage you discuss and try to solve if still you are unhappy, you get out of the M via D and than do whatever you want but not while you are committed to the M... make sense!<p>yes, her 1st EN is conversation, I may have lacked the way she get pleased, but definately I am not denying that i am perfect, I am learning how to converse and what conversation will deposit the max love units... No doubt about that...<p>also, here is a proble, my 1st EN is HONESTY AND OPENNESS, however, this is not on her list of top 10 ENs by the way she has weird ideas that lie, deception, manupulation and holding on info to herself is OK, that is the way she has been brought up, so unless she makes an effort to master this skill I will never be satisfied bcoz that is my primary need...<p>second I am extremely dissapointed with my 2nd EN which is SF, for her once a month is OK for me atleast minimum 2 times a weeks, that is bare min, dont you agree....<p>Well what do you think ? is there a way out apart from D.....<p>"What it DOES mean is that you have some responsibility for creating the poor marital environment that made her decision to have an affair justifiable in her mind"<p>she has that responsibility too, i think the M was poor, but I did not go out and did what she did, if I want to do that I will get a D 1st and do that next, dont you agree....<p>
Well I dont know if I want to kiss her A$$ forever......<p>her top 5 EN
conversation
Financial
SF
Attractive spouse
domestic help<p>I was ranked perfect on all except the 1st which the OM is fulfilling because she is OPEN and HONEST with him, I could also have a wonderful conversation if she is Open and honest with me...<p>We had that b4 the A maybe we lost it about 3-4 years ago.. and since than i have been pursuing to get this straighten out but I was not aware of the A until 2-1/2 months ago... you see my prob ?<p>well help!
thank you all!
thelion

Hello persistant:<p>I agree with you to a certain extent about plan A, and I have or might have done things wrong, I have shown her and helped her see that I am ready to change but the FOG can never see that....<p>Also, you have to understand that to me it looks like deceived me even b4 the M because I am still not sure if there was some A or connection when they were classmate in college.... <p>if you think it that way it was all along a lie, so why do I want this M back so badly, just because I love her to death does not mean she did too, rather she never loved me it was A LIE, double life....<p>well persistant thanks for all your help... I am giving up hope...<p>No the A is over but my W is obsessed to the extreme will not let go, she still chases the OM who is overseas via e-mail and telephone.....<p>I have talked to steve, she has never and is not ready to talk to him.......<p>TheLion

Yep, I see your problem very clearly.<p>You are quite confused about Plan A/B and you're not sure what you want to do.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TheLion:
<strong>However, A is not a solution to a Marital problem, if you have a problem in the marriage you discuss and try to solve if still you are unhappy, you get out of the M via D and than do whatever you want but not while you are committed to the M... make sense!</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Yes, but your W is not currently committed to the marriage so this ideal "normal" solution isn't applicable to you nor to any other marriage enduring an affair. <p>Plan A is not advertised as a solution to a marital problem - it's a solution to YOUR problems and a solution for what you do while the affair runs its course.<p>Now, I and others here can help you implement Plan A/B if you want to try to salvage your marriage. If you don't want this, just say so and I won't waste my time. <p>If you can't kiss her butt, then give up and file for divorce. You haven't been at this nearly as long as a lot of other people who post on this forum so if you don't have it in you, just say so.<p>But I will tell you this: what you're currently doing is NOT Plan A. Based on what you've described, you have an excellent chance at restoring your marriage to a much better condition than you ever imagined.<p>Yes, she is wrong and it's unfair for you to have to go thru this. Despite your contributions, what she has done is unexcusable. Your are right to expect honesty and respect from her. She is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!! You are RIGHT, RIGHT, RIGHT!!<p>Do you wanna be right or do you wanna be married?<p>So, what will it be?<p>WAT

Hi worthatry:<p>I see your point but see no HOPE...
I have to think for a while and make that decision, but rationally i am ready for D....<p>Emotinally ready to fight and this confusion will never let me decide... I have to decide thought...<p>You are right, she is wrong, but cannot see it...<p>Well maybe plan B is the answer.....
Because as long as A continues I cannot see any hope, also just to let you know I have been playing plan A for last 6 months, though the D day is 2-1/2 months ago..<p>I know people on this board have played plan A for 2 years as well, and I am not them, I cannot do it period....<p>TheLION

Here's your first problem: you want to fight, but this isn't about fighting, it's about loving. <p>Your other misconceptions: You want to change her, but you can't expect to be able to change anybody except yourself. <p>You expect her to be rational, but she doesn't have that capability right now and you don't see it. <p>You think the affair is over, but it's not. <p>You think she was open and honest with OM, but she wasn't. <p>You think you've been Plan A'ing for awhile, but you haven't started. <p>You don't think you can kiss her butt for very long, but you can.<p>And last, but not least, you forget who you're dealing with. She's been abducted by aliens and had her brains scrambled. She's re-writing history and going thru all kinds of mental gymnastics in order to justify her actions and the changes to her value system. Be suspicious of everything she says and half of what she does. This is EXACTLY why the "normal" process of resolving marital disputes won't work in this case.<p>WAT

Hi worthatry:
<strong>Here's your first problem: you want to fight, but this isn't about fighting, it's about loving. (agreed it is about love)!<p>Your other misconceptions: You want to change her, but you can't expect to be able to change anybody except yourself. (I agree!)<p>You expect her to be rational, but she doesn't have that capability right now and you don't see it. (OK, so when will that be ?) no one knows!<p>You think the affair is over, but it's not. (OK in denial)<p>You think she was open and honest with OM, but she wasn't. (well if she wasnt how was her needs of conversation met) I guess I am confused!<p>You think you've been Plan A'ing for awhile, but you haven't started. (well I do not agree here) <p>You don't think you can kiss her butt for very long, but you can. (How can you ?) after all this!<p>And last, but not least, you forget who you're dealing with. She's been abducted by aliens and had her brains scrambled. She's re-writing history and going thru all kinds of mental gymnastics in order to justify her actions and the changes to her value system. Be suspicious of everything she says and half of what she does. This is EXACTLY why the "normal" process of resolving marital disputes won't work in this case.
(So what you are saying is only MB principle will work and anything rational will not work) is that correct ?<p>TheLION
WAT</strong>[/QUOTE]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TheLion:
<strong>(So what you are saying is only MB principle will work and anything rational will not work) is that correct?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>No, that's not what I'm saying at all.<p>You can continue to do what you're doing and suffer thru this ordeal and it's possible that she will come out of the fog before it's too late and decide to work on your marriage. Recovery from affairs has been going on for as long as marriages have been around - long before MB - so, clearly, MB principles is not the only success path for recovery. Further, MB principles don't always work. My marriage is a good example of this.<p>My point was that you're trying to be rational with an irrational person. Rationality won't work until she comes out of the fog.<p>So, whether you use MB principles or not, you can continue your course and maybe she'll return. If you do absolutely nothing, maybe she'll return. In fact, doing ANYTHING to try to end the affair will probably make it worse. But what do you do when she does come back? Return to the same poor state of your marriage that existed before the affair? Remember, the affair is not the problem - it's only a symptom.<p>MB principles DO NOT END THE AFFAIR. Only the affairees can do that.<p>MB principles are all about taking care of yourself during the affair and recovering from the affair when the WS is ready.<p>WAT

Hi worthatry:<p>I agree with you we are trying to deal with ratinality with an irrational person, I really appreciate your replies....<p>To be honest yes I would like to learn and make myself a better person with all the MB principles however, I am not sure if and when she comes out of the FOG I will be ready to take her back, and as of now I am not sure if I want to wait that long ? which unfortunately I dont even know when it will be ?? I cant take so much uncertainty. I would rather close this and start all over again in that case I know what I am getting into, rather than get BETRAYED again and again by the same person... What is your take in this ?<p>My sympathies with you because your M could not be saved, but I am sure you are happy that you tried every possible way to save it... correct ?<p>I am reaching that point as well, where I will be satisfied with myself that i did everything I could if she cannot see it or does not want to see it too bad for her and me as well.<p>Thaks WAT, once again, you thoughts help me see thru other side of the coin!<p>TheLION
<strong><p>No, that's not what I'm saying at all.<p>You can continue to do what you're doing and suffer thru this ordeal and it's possible that she will come out of the fog before it's too late and decide to work on your marriage. Recovery from affairs has been going on for as long as marriages have been around - long before MB - so, clearly, MB principles is not the only success path for recovery. Further, MB principles don't always work. My marriage is a good example of this.<p>My point was that you're trying to be rational with an irrational person. Rationality won't work until she comes out of the fog.<p>So, whether you use MB principles or not, you can continue your course and maybe she'll return. If you do absolutely nothing, maybe she'll return. In fact, doing ANYTHING to try to end the affair will probably make it worse. But what do you do when she does come back? Return to the same poor state of your marriage that existed before the affair? Remember, the affair is not the problem - it's only a symptom.<p>MB principles DO NOT END THE AFFAIR. Only the affairees can do that.<p>MB principles are all about taking care of yourself during the affair and recovering from the affair when the WS is ready.<p>WAT</strong>[/QUOTE]

Hi Lion!<p>(I'm guessing you are a Leo?) [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Do you ever lurk over on the General Questions II board? Try it sometime, maybe over the weekend? THere's lots more traffic there, and from reading thru your thread, seems you may relate to some of what others are going through.<p>You've been given GREAT advice all over this thread. DO you ever go back, relax, and read back through it to see where you've come from, and see the advice with a new day's eyes on?<p>ok... not much to add really. <p>Here's 2 links you may find helpful. let me know what you think, k?<p>Length of time for Plan A<p>The Mis-Application of Plan A<p>
I'd like to try to address some of what you posted last to WAT:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>To be honest yes I would like to learn and make myself a better person with all the MB principles however, I am not sure if and when she comes out of the FOG I will be ready to take her back, and as of now I am not sure if I want to wait that long ? which unfortunately I dont even know when it will be ?? I cant take so much uncertainty. I would rather close this and start all over again in that case I know what I am getting into, rather than get BETRAYED again and again by the same person... What is your take in this ? <hr></blockquote><p>ahhhh... the questions and feelings many of us have/had. I believe this is the same thought process our WS's had when they chose to have an affair. As the marriage comes out of the honeymoon stage - things got a little stale - or even got to a very poor state, MANY WS's decided they might rather go start over somewhere else then face the problems head-on and stay married.<p>The problem with this "grass is greener on the other side" is that weeds grow over there too. right?<p>So why not weed and feed your own yard, and give it nurturing, time and patience, before giving up on it? You're in a period of draught now, right? There may be rain right around the corner. But you don't get a beautiful lawn overnight, and you sure don't get it without some hard work.<p>so.... enough of that silly analogy [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] ...<p>I believe you CAN kiss her a$$ for a little while. I believe a marriage is made up of mutual a$$-kissing, for a lifetime. If you kiss hers for a lil bit, she may decide to pucker up herself... or maybe not. only time will tell.<p>The point that I believe everyone is trying to make with you, is give this some more time and patience. You may feel that your situation is hopeless, but we've seen FAR too many stories on this forum of hopeless situations turning into success stories!<p>Your not sure if you can ever love and trust her again? SHe's not sure if you can change what needs to be changed. <p>Well, I hope that helps a little. No one promised this would be easy. But nothing WORTH anything comes easy, does it? [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] Roll up your sleeves and don't be afraid of some work... it will be worth it! <p>Take care of YOU... and give this time.<p>[ June 14, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TheLion:
<strong>I cant take so much uncertainty. I would rather close this and start all over again in that case I know what I am getting into, rather than get BETRAYED again and again by the same person... What is your take in this ?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>My take is that either you want to try this or you don't. No one can predict how long it will be before you get a chance at rebuilding your marriage. Even if she comes out of the fog today, you still have a lot of uncertainty about the durability of your recovery. This is where the MB principles can help, if applied correctly. As you recognized previously, this is not the only way. But if done as designed, the goal is that you then have an affair-proof marriage because you've both learned how to meet each other's ENs.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>My sympathies with you because your M could not be saved, but I am sure you are happy that you tried every possible way to save it... correct ?</strong><hr></blockquote><p>You're a good straight man, Mr Lion. Perhaps "happy" isn't the correct word, but I am content knowing I did all I could and I have no guilt. If not for MB, I may not be where I am today in this regard. You see, I am a Plan A/B success story and I'm divorced. See? Plan A/B is all about YOU!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong>I am reaching that point as well, where I will be satisfied with myself that i did everything I could if she cannot see it or does not want to see it too bad for her and me as well.
</strong><hr></blockquote><p>If you truly think you're at the end of your rope AND you've demonstrated your Plan A improvements, Plan B is next. But, I'd like to read that you're gonna give Plan A some more time. Get to a doc and get on some anti-depressants. You may find your second wind - and then your third, and fourth, and fifth..........<p>Please consider slowing down with your time frame. Is a few more months of Plan A worth the potential for a long, wonderful marriage? <p>WAT

Hey Lion, I have been reading the lastest advice given to you and man it is making me more and more confused. What to do, what to do. Like you I am seeing my parents this weekend and I want to tell them everything including that W is pregnant with OM's kid.
BIG NEWS - W called today after 6 days on plan b.
We talked for over two hours. She did not deny the affair this time and listenend to me discuss the Love Bank and my understanding of why the affair occurred. It went quite well. However, she is still very much unclear about where to go from here and feels like keeping a child away from its natural father is wrong and cannot be done. I told her I agreed and it can be done, but what cannot be done is for her to continue talking to OM. He can visit the child, but when he visits you need to be out of the house. And if he calls, I talk to him. I told her that is how it would have to be. She did not disagree, but listened. She did tell me about all the horrible things I did over the years that made her question our marriage etc. . . It went quite well, but now I am at a point where I don't know what to do again. She seemed a lot more clear headed and more mature about the whole thing. Should I now continue on with plan A again or stick with plan B which will be difficult. OH, btw, she wants me to tell my parents. She asked me to call her afterwards to tell her how it went. It seems like she wants the truth out of the bag . . Damn this is so confusing. I think one of the reasons you and I feel like just going for the D which sometimes feels like giving up is because it is so damn hard to live like this. And could we really find happiness again with our WW. I too feel sometimes like maybe this marriage was one that should never have happened. She did mention that she has no intention of having another child and I told her that is something that we can talk about should she decide she wants to make a commitment to me. And of course for me that is a total LB. I really want to have a family with her and if one child of another man will be my only family, that may be a major LB for me. Especially if OM is an active participant of the kid's life which is how she sees the future right now. Being that my wife is pregnant with OM's baby and that this affair is a heavy EA with the "soulmate" issue it seems to me that the best thing for me is to move on. However, if my wife was not pregnant I would definetely be plan A'ing for awhile longer. W has already been able to see that OM is not Mr. Perfect that she thought at first and she can recognize that life with him will not be the bliss that she imagines. Your wife will soon see that this obsession with OM is a waste and will realize that The Lion is still there loving her everyday. The fog will clear. With my wife, the fog is still lingering and sometimes realy heavy but unfortunately she had to get pregnant for a little clarity to come. Since your W's OM is not around, your W still has these lingering thoughts that if he were here, we could be so happy together. Your W might need to spend some more time with him to realize he is not the Prince Charming that she imagines, by then it will be too late to return to the lion. I hope for your sake that she can realize this on her own without having to destroy your marriage. I guess you have to be a little more patient and plan A a little longer. Think about it, you know she will not be seeing him becaue he is far away so you don't have to worry about the PA continuing plus she is not pregnant with his kid!!It is almost funny when I think about it now!
So I don't see any reason for you to not continue plan A. If OM is really out of the picture, at some point your W will realize that the man who really loves her and she should be with is you.
Good luck Lion.
I will need some too.

hI Faith1:<p>Yes I am a leo!<p>I will start posting on GEN Q II..<p>You are right on point looks like the M got out of honeymoon phase, yes we had WORLDLY problems now and than but you see I am a person who will face the problem right on however, my W will not she will procstinate, and sit on it forever without facing the problem. Or rather she had A to get away from these worldly issue's...<p>"time and patience"<p>These are two very powerful words.... I dont know if I can live with it. Only time will tell.<p>Thanks Faith,! I will always remember your name and advise!<p>TheLion

Lion I was reading the missaplication of plan A thread and saw this, I thought it might be helpful.
Until the WS comes to you with: 1) genuine remorse, 2) a commitment to end things with the OP, and 3) a desire to understand what went wrong and learn from it (implementation of the extraordinary measures, openness, and acceptance of your feelings), you have nothing of value.
I guess your W and mine have not shown us this as of yet. In my contact with her today after plan B'ing for 6 days I thought she did have a desire to understand what went wrong but she was using it to justify the affair, to defend her actions. I think may be all the advice to stick with plan a or b is just not helping because it seems to me that in your mind plan A is no longer possible, but you are still a bit scared and unwilling to go for plan B. From my understanding, we should go with plan b when we are no longer capable of applying plan a and it looks like you are at that point. May be you should ask your wife to either take care of all the things about the house or ask her to not participate in any of the decisions about the house. I bet that will be a major wake-up call, but I am sure it can also be viewed as a major LB as well. But what a way to start with a serious no holds-barred plan B!

WOW tofu<p>What a change Plan B has done for you!!! I really respect your guts man, I would never be able to go thru what you have described.....<p>I dont know what I will be doing, but you seem to be handling things better, I guess we all have good and bad days!!!!<p>Hang in there my friend, we will pass thru these storms......<p>TakeCare and continue plan B do not plan A until the FOG clears altogether otherwise you will be back to square one!!!!<p>TheLion

Hello worthatry:<p>Thanks once again for all your advise.. I can relate to it but effectively following is HARD.<p>Here is another problem, lying still continues, my W has started applying for jobs out of state, I dont know what she is trying to do, run away from all this ?? dont know....too many lies, how do i dissect them and make decisions....<p>I will give PATIENCE AND TIME a try and see how long i can take it...<p>Thanks again!
TheLION

Yes tofu you are right I have not seen and genuine remorse, nor understanding of why this happened. Both of our W's are in deep FOG, they are not here they are in alien land, we cannot convey any message across...<p>The only thing to do is plan B and wait as long as we can and just give when you cannot continue any longer, for me that is sure coming along very soon....<p>You take care man, I think by the time we get over this, I can get couple of PHD's in A.. what do you think.. I have been reading too much...
I need to stop and think rather...<p>TheLION

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TheLion:
<strong>Here is another problem, lying still continues,</strong><hr></blockquote><p>OF COURSE it continues! The Mothership requires it! This is not another problem. It's all part of the affair. Lying is fundamental.<p>Re-read what I said previously. You are not dealing with a rational person. Believe none of what she says and only half of what she does. Heck, she's lying to herself!<p>She's is just like the hundreds of other WSs I've read about. She will not stop lying until she escapes the clutches of her addiction. think of her as a drug addict or a drunk. Have you ever tried reasoning with a drunk? Same thing.<p>tofu - you need to decide whether you're in Plan B or not. You say you are, but you're not doing it. What the heck are you doing talking to her? What were your conditions you set in your Plan B letter for communication? Did she meet them?<p>Forgive me guys for being so harsh with you, but I want you to succeed. This is not just a cheerleading section. Until that judge signs that Order, you have a chance. Even after that, if you want it, you can still succeed in recovery. The really hard part is deciding what your goal is - and when to change your mind.

Hi fellas!<p>ditto WAT...<p>and persistant worded it very well:
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>In a Plan A, you would be meeting her EN&#8217;s, being pleasant, maybe even dating per se. In a Plan B, no contact unless absolutely necessary. Messages, finances, business would all be conducted through a mutual friend. There would be no contact.<p>You seem to be doing the partial contact, but little interaction. Not sure what message this sends.
<hr></blockquote><p>
[img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] [img]images/icons/cool.gif" border="0[/img]

Okay Plan B question-
My WW called me today. I said hello I am happy to hear from you. Then our conversation started.
How was I supposed to react? Should I have immediately asked her, are you ready to reconcile with OM out of the pic? If she said no then I would say very nicely to call back when you are ready for that. Is that what I should have done?
I don't know I figured I needed to at least get a feel of where she is at. One positive thing did happen. She did not go berserk when I said the word "affair" or "lover". She didn't deny it, but she did tell me all the BAD things I had done all these years THAT I had no idea were bad things that caused her to look elsewhere for love i.e. justifying the affair.
How about this, I do not call her back telling her about my talk with my parents. I am going to lay it all out for them. If she wants to know about it, she can call me and ask. ouch, can i really do that???
I can do it. I can do it.

Another thing- she told me today that she repressed herself so much these years with me that she never was really herself and lately she has become a completely different person. She and I are not really on the same wavelength as far as life goals. Could this be a sign for me to move on knowing that everything she says now may or may not be true. 3 things that she says that I am totally NOT in agreement with and will have a hard time dealing with.
1. I only want one kid, Om's kid! (She used to say she wanted at least 3 kids)
2. I want to live in the country and not send my kid to school. (She used to love to be at her Grandma's with all her little cousins - the big rowdy house with lots of family all over - that was one of her dreams early on in our marriage - but she also wanted to be a doctor which she has given up too)
3. I don't want my kid to ever watch tv or go to disney world ( the happiest place on earth!)
(She never did like TV and resents it because that is one of the things with which I avoided her these past few years so I understand that one but Disney?? She went there for the first time with me and she absolutely loved it. She liked to collect disney character stuffed animals.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Originally quoted by tofu:<strong> How was I supposed to react? Should I have immediately asked her, are you ready to reconcile with OM out of the pic? If she said no then I would say very nicely to call back when you are ready for that. Is that what I should have done? </strong><hr></blockquote><p>Almost.<p>This would be more effective:<p>You: (without interrupting) Did you understand my letter?<p>Her: (It doesn't matter what she says)<p>You: I understand your concern. Please respect my wishes to not communicate directly with you. It's just too painful for me. I'd be delighted to talk about our future when you're ready to work on our marriage. I love you. Goodbye (Click)<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong> I don't know I figured I needed to at least get a feel of where she is at. </strong><hr></blockquote> <p>We KNOW where's she's at: under control of the Mothership. You'll know when she's not - she'll tell you.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong> One positive thing did happen. She did not go berserk when I said the word "affair" or "lover". </strong><hr></blockquote> <p>Nothing positive about that. You just LB'd and you don't even know it. Don't say anything that comes close to accusing her or could possibly make her feel guilty.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong> How about this, I do not call her back telling her about my talk with my parents. </strong><hr></blockquote><p>How about this: You don't call her about ANYTHING? You're either in Plan A, Plan B, or divorced. Only if children are involved should you initiate ANY contact - and then only thru an intermediary or indirectly thru voice mail or e-mail. <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong> If she wants to know about it, she can call me and ask. </strong><hr></blockquote> <p>If she does, repeat the conversation above.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr><strong> Another thing- she told me today that she repressed herself so much these years with me that she never was really herself and lately she has become a completely different person. She and I are not really on the same wavelength as far as life goals. Could this be a sign for me to move on knowing that everything she says now may or may not be true. </strong><hr></blockquote> <p>No, quite the contrary - this is a sign that she's a typical WS. In her being so, you have an excellent chance of restoring your marriage to a condition much better than you can imagine.<p>Everything else she said is straight from the WS script. She is very, very, very typical. Your situation is not unique.<p>So, tell us, what did you accomplish in your Plan A?<p>WAT<p>[ June 14, 2002: Message edited by: worthatry ]</p>

I see what you mean WAT. The whole time I was talking to her I thought you know I am not really sticking to my plan B but I COULDN'T STOP! I was enjoying talking to her, I was weak! I see what you mean about bringing up the affair being an LB, but once again I couldn't help it! I see what you mean by it being better that we not talk to them at all because it is useless when they are under control of the mothership and anything we say will most likely not make any difference at all.
I am not really sure exactly what I accomplished in my plan A because she left me pretty suddenly after D-day. She spent two weeks with me in mid-April before going to stay at her Dad's to "sort things out" and go to therapy (which I hope is a good thing at least for her sake). She kept telling me how amazing I was during those two weeks etc. . . I did plan A perfectly those two weeks. She returned to the OM to pick up her stuff and return to me that was when she discovered that she was pregnant. She returned to me pregnant suffering major OM withdrawal and guilty feelings about taking his baby away from him. This was difficult for me and I LB'd a lot at that time and really ruined the plan A I had been working on.
So Lion make sure you are really ready to plan B before starting it because I am not sure I was.
It is very difficult to let go.

And Wat thanks for the tough coaching!

Lion,<p>Listen to what WAT and Faith have written to you. I know this stuff is hard. Nothing worthwhile in life is easy. I had days where I thought that life really wasn't worth it. When I couldn't believe my wife of seventeen years was anyone that I ever knew.<p>As difficult as this may seem to you, there is a path. MB concepts are probably the most successful method of restoring marriages. But I read what you write, and all I get is overwhelming hope and despair. And pointing to your wife and saying "she does this and that, she lies,...", all about her. Listen. Do you really think your wife is the only WS around who rewrote history, who was dishonest, who acted differently than the women that we fell in love with and married?<p>Lion, I've had 20 months of MB coaching - most of that working a Plan A on a WS. In most instances, I don't feel real strong giving advice, although I think my Plan A was very successful. At least successful enough to get my fogged-in, in love with her true solemate, 2-1/2 year affair wife, to actually abandon her affair and give our marriage a try again. And yes, she went through some really deep withdrawal afterward too. I'm getting twisted off here, but all I want to say is that your situation is so needing of a Plan A that I am completely in shock that Steve did not recommend that to you.<p>What you are doing now with your Plan A/B mix is just showing her how mean you can be, and that you can continue to hold a grudge. This "I have to tell my parents about your affair" says that loud and clear too. I also think it is more of the "woe is me" syndrome. Yeah, I may be off-base as to your true intentions, but I bet this is what she's reading from your actions. You don't Plan B a wife who has ended the affair and is going through marriage counseling. Yeah, she definately will still have feelings for OM. Probably will for a very long time - it's called withdrawal - but they will subside with time. But look at this side of it - you're not meeting any of her EN's now with this Plan A/2, we all desire to have EN's met, so what do you expect her to do?<p>You say she's dishonest - sending out resumes out of town, and she hasn't talked to you about it. Come on now. What would you do - give her two minutes? How about the possibility that she's moving on because her husband is not there for her. Because her marriage had problems even before the affair, that her husband won't own up to or try to change. Come on - Plan A is about changing you.<p>Plan A, Plan A, Plan A! Did you hear me? I said PLAN A!!! Any kind of modified Plan B at this point is just a joke. If you don't have the strength to do Plan A, then don't bother with Plan B. Just go ahead and open up the conversation with her, and start working toward divorce while you two are still civil to each other. You could probably do a reasonably easy mediation. And two years from now you can kick yourself in the b*tt wondering why you didn't try harder back then to make your marriage work.<p>Maybe this is tougher love than you wanted to hear. But if you really want your marriage to recover, you need to get with the program. NOW!<p>P

From a veteran of Plan A... then Plan B... then DV! And, have become the better for it all!<p>Listen to the words of WAT(Dave), Faith1 and persistant!<p>MB is all about making you better...
...because if you can make yourself a better you...
...how can you expect a lowly WS to do it!<p>I'll add "Consistency" to your "Patience" and "Time"...
...PTC...
...as per...Plan A - 101 (2nd ed.)
...and the followups...Plan B - 101 (2nd ed.) and Plan B - 201.<p>You can't Plan A and Plan B at the same time!
Plan A is the setup for Plan B!...
...a growth in your human development!
Both are to make you a better person...
...none can guarantee a return to a healthy marriage...
...that's life.<p>Do re-read... several times over the great links that Faith1 gave you!<p>Love.<p> [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Jim/NSR

Lion I was reading the missaplication of plan A thread and saw this, I thought it might be helpful.
Until the WS comes to you with: 1) genuine remorse, 2) a commitment to end things with the OP, and 3) a desire to understand what went wrong and learn from it (implementation of the extraordinary measures, openness, and acceptance of your feelings), you have nothing of value.
Harley says, the ws may NOT ever show remorse, true or otherwise.
Plan B can end if the ws is willing to end contact and do something to repair the marriage (such as speak with Steve/Jen Harley.)

Thanks worthatry:<p>so what you are saying is they will always lie until out of FOG, that is very hard for me to understand, the best thing would be to write a PLAN B letter and wait... that way you do not get trapped in lying and bull they talk about....<p>well Wat I dont know I am giving up. I fully understand but I am not sure I can withstand the pain, also, if someone can give you so much pain can they ever love you back like they have before....<p>TheLion

Hi persistant:<p>I agree with what you said, I do not have a choice she moved out so plan A is not in effect, I tried it when she was staying with me for about 2 weeks, and before that for last 6 months eventhough I was not aware of the A....<p>At this point I do not have a choice but to plan B. Because the A is not dying its natural death and she is not ready to give up....though as per her words it is over by the OM, she still chases him via telephone and emails....she is having a hard time withrawing... DETOX does not seem to work.<p>Well thanks for all your help, I fully understand what you are saying but until she gets out of FOG we cannot get into recovery stage.....<p>I have not told my parents yet, they only know that we are having Marital problems thats all...<p>TheLion

Hi Lion!<p>I have something for you to read [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] . Click here, AND THEN read the "My Story" link that you also will see once you get THERE.<p>He SAID it!<p>[ June 17, 2002: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</p>