My daughter is the one cheating on her H of 5 years. She is talking all the talk to her H, I don;t love you, we should never of married, you know the talk.

She has only know the OM for 4 weeks but swears she loves him and doesn't want to work on her marriage. She has moved into a friends house since her H says you are cheating you move I won't.

She took a cash advance to have an attorney draw up a disolution and her H will not sign nor will he put their house up for sale. He just wants to save this marriage.

I as a mother of this person am very disappointed in her and have not supported this affair in any way. We have major fights and she now refuses to talk to me, since I won't give her support.

We have exposed her affair to H's parents as well as to the OM parents and all her friends. She goes over to the OM house since he lives at home (at 30 years of age and still living at home, 4 DUI's and doesn't have a job.

She has been very loving when she see her H and asks him to events that are important to her, even cried in his arms saying she was so sorry and that she in fact did love him, but then the next day please sign the papers. She states that when the divorce is final she will feel so much better.

She will not go to counseling with H but is going to one herself who put her on some pills that seem to deaden her emotions.

How do I as a mother help and how does her H help since the mixed signals have him confused.

Thanks

You are a GOOD MOTHER who really does love her DD!! It is so refreshing to see a parent who really does support her child instead of enabling her!

Can you send your SIL here so we can help him? I would suggest that you both read Surviving an Affair by Dr. Willard Harley. It will help you both understand the dynamics of an affair.

Welcome to MB, my brave, good friend, I am sorry you are here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Your SIL should be in Plan A:

The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A by Pepperband

The carrot of Plan A


Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Stop lovebusting behaviors.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.



The stick of Plan A


Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

Not apologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financal security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Plan A is both a *carrot* and a *stick*.

Please tell him NOT to cooperate with any divorce schemes. I hope he has not signed anything yet. He should make her WORK very hard to divorce him and should never cooperate with anything. He should also get a very aggressive attorney that will help him drag out every little thing. See, this affair is going to crumble fast, so the goal here is to drag the divorce out as long as possible in order to outlast the affair. Also, making things difficult will make your DD have second thoughts, because it will inject reality into her little fantasy.

Perhaps you did mention this above, but if you haven't personally contacted the OM's parents and pled with them to use their influence with their son, I would suggest doing that. If I ever received such a call about my own son acting so trashy, there would be ****** to pay.

Hello YMD,

I agree with ML, get a copy of SAA, it will give you and SIL some sanity and a road map of a crazy making situation! Read everything you can on this site. Consider calling Dr. Harley on his radio show too!

I am a mother who's son was the adulterer, their marriage is 2+ years recovered. Recovery does happen!

Like you I supported my DIL to the hilt, not my son, not one bit! Even went with her to court appearances for a RO on the OW.

You've found the right place for you and your SIL, although I am very sorry this has happened to your family.

Keep in mind as crazy as it gets and as foggy as she sounds they can recover!

have printed information from this site for both my D and her H since he has not computer. Of course daughter thinks that anything I printed off the internet is trash and she can find lots to support her position.

She is running a marathon on Sunday and wants H to attend and he is leary of course of getting kicked in the teeth again with sign the papers which he will not do since he believes in marriage for life. Should he go?

Daughter sates to much wrong with the marriage and she will be better when it is just all over. Of course she forgets that I was seeing a lot of what she has re-written and didn't happen the way she says now.

Thanks

My youngest daughter was making some bad decisions at one point in her life. She also didn't want to talk to me, so I ended up writing to her. She changed her position soon after she got the letter. It wasn't infidelity, but maybe this will help you get started. Her issue was that she didn't want a "chance" at something get away from her, and she wanted to "live for today" - which is similar to affairs - that fantasy that we need to live for what only feels good, and not plan for the reality of life and tomorrow. Here's part of the letter I wrote her:

"It is with great hope that I write, that perhaps my words will somehow reach through what your friends say about me (you could put OM here) and what they believe of me. I hope to touch a part of who I know you to be deep inside. The daughter that resides deep within you, who sees the world as a good and beautiful place, filled mostly with people of worth, who deserve your endless depth of forgiveness, your constatnt stream of joy, and your contagious laughter. That is the daughter I am talking to now."

I spoke in here about the idea of fantasy. And about risk-taking, about the idea that we cannot live only for today - because we have reality and our future ahead of us. And that the future requires us to think ahead, to plan ahead. I told her that if I lived only for today, that I wouldn't pay rent for a whole month - why bother? I'd pay rent by the day. No guarantee I'd need the house for a month! And why even commit to anyone? I might "feel" differently tomorrow - heck, even thirty minutes from now if I'm having PMS.

I told her:

"A thinking person plans ahead. We don't live for one day, and we consider who we associate with. We understand our connections to people reflect on us. A thinking person hedges the bet for tomorrow in the middle. He knows the odds in life, and plays them smart.

He saves for the future, in case he lives to 100.

But, sure, he plays some wild cards for fun.

He holds back an ace or two, just in case he needs them later.

He plans for the long haul.

He makes contingency plans for emergencies.


Because I BELIEVE in the future, because I BELIEVE in the FANTASY of tomorrow, I have

RESPONSIBILITIES.

I have to teach my children things that are very hard to teach. Like what I'm trying to teach you right now.

So that I can love you into the future. And so that you will love yourself when you get there, too.

I have to work at things I don't necessarily want to do sometimes, so that I can do the things I want to do at other times.

I know life right now is not as you hoped. And you don't want to face the things you have to face.

But if you honor the responsibilities you have, and face them now, you will find that those around you will love you into the future and stand with you in this time of need.

Because we all know and BELIEVE in you."


She completely changed her mind about what she was going to do. And her idea that she no longer wanted to talk to us, or have us involved in her "adult" life.....

Because she wanted us there to love her into the future.

You hang in there, momma. Tell her you want to stand by her and love her through this - and get her husband onto this website so we can help him. BUT KEEP HER OFF OF HERE UNTIL SHE IS OUT OF THIS AFFAIR AND OUT OF THE FOG.

SB

How Refreshing!!!

Atually TWO moms here who did not support their children's destructive affairs.

I applaud you for standing up for what is right, and for using a little bit of tough love to try and lead them OUT of the the path of their own self-destruction.

I wish you were my in-laws.

Have your SIL call up Dr. Harley's radio show at 11pm central time and have him help to explain what he needs to do. He can also purchase surviving an affair, and print out plan A for him. Printing anything out for your daughter will be pretty much useless right now.

I wish that my MIL was still alive at the time of my WW's affair because she would have told my WW off. I think you can be a valuable asset to kill your daughter's affair. You can do all your SIL's dirty work to break up the affair, and he can't even be blamed for it (although your DD will try to). Do EVERYTHING in your power to break up WW and OM. I would call up OM and tell him to stay away from your daughter on a daily basis. I would call up OM's parents and harass them as well. I would call up your DD's friend whose house she is staying at. Your SIL should not go along with anything and just wait it out. He should stay in plan A for probably 3 months or so, and then move to plan B. All the meanwhile, you can help him fight his fights. Get other family members and friends to call your DD as well. I know she may try to avoid you, but the pressure you are putting on her will take it's toll on her and the affair.

Actually, while I am thrilled that this lady is standing up for what is right, I disagree that she should do "all of SIL's dirty work" as above poster suggested. I think part of the solution lies in HIM being assertive enough to do his own dirty work. When the fog lifts, I would think WW would have respect that he had been the one kicking OM's butt rather than Mom.

As a mom, I would attend the marathon and stand with her husband. I would ride with HIM. I would stand with HIM during the event. I would leave with HIM after the event.

I would hug her when she completed the marathon. And then I would take advantage of her accomplishment and say something like,

"Life is a marathon, too. I bet you experienced some times during this race where you thought it had you beat, but you stood strong and faced the hard time. I bet there was a moment when you thought you might not make it, but you forged on. This wasn't easy, but you did it! There's lots of things like that. Marriage is like that. We were here for you at the end of this difficult race, and we will be there at the end of your affair. And when you come home to your husband, we will be there then, too. Because you know what is right and true, and you know where home is."

You both tell her you love her.

And I would leave her there with that thought, and nothing more. Both of you hug her, and both of you walk away. Together.

She will get your message.

And yes, she will be angry. Your relationship can survive her being angry. But her future, her spirit, cannot survive her doing what she knows is not right. She will thank you for fighting her on this - sooner or later.

My daughter didn't commit adultery - but she nearly did a very stupid thing. She's finishing a committment that she made and almost walked out on. But she is so much happier that she is finishing, and so proud of herself now that she is doing what she knew to be the right thing. Because to do otherwise was to walk out on

herself.

And there was NO WAY that I would ever let her do that.

I had to love her into the future, even if she couldn't do it for herself right then.

SB

Thanks all for your support and advice. My D and I had a long conversation last night as she was feeling all alone and her H was not available since he was working. She calls him when she is crying and upset, but she feels that she can't forgive herself so no one else will be able to and the sooner she has a Divorce the sooner she will stop hurting and become the happy go lucky person she was before her marriage.

When she first told us of the breakdown of the M we had no clue as to the affair and when that came to light it all made sense. I am very close to her and have seen her and H interact many times and the things she claimed was wrong did not sit right with me.

She claims he can't fix all that is wrong and isn't fair to ask him to. I asked how many things would she need to fix or did she do anything wrong in the M and she said I am sure but can't think of any. She is always reaching out to her H in times of remorse and sadness because as she says she feels safe in him.

She is still talking to the OM everyday and sees him about 2 times a week, but swears it isn't because of him, even if their relantionship doesn't work she still wants a D.

Her H is steadfast in the fact of not signing anything but is worrying if she is at the point of doing to much damage and he might not want her back.

I explained plan B and will print this out for him.

Thanks.

They all say this. It is about as honest and reliable as a falling down drunk claiming that the real source of his problem is his wife's bad cooking rather than his excessive drinking. Her goal in this statement is to take the focus off her ADDICTION, the affair. If she admits that is the problem, then she will be obliged to fix it, and she has no intention right now of giving up her affair until the affair becomes too painful. But it is becoming very painful, because the light of exposure is killing it and making it very hard. Once the affair is over and she withdraws, her feelings for her H will come back.


Just keep the pressure up and make sure she knows she will never be able to darken your doorstep with this OM!

Trust me she knows this. We were spending Saturday together and her cell phone kept ringing. It was the OM and I said if this continues I am done spending this day with you since I cant support this. OM kept calling and calling and I said doesn't this seem controlling to you and her response was OM knows we fight and he just wants to be supportive. YEAH RIGHT left her standing in the middle of the mall and called a friend to come pick me up.

I speak to her H daily and offer him the advice I see on this broad. The fact when things get tough she reaches out to him and he is not LB anymore seems to draw her out more.

But then man she turns into a real B___ and no one can stand her at this time. I raised this women so I know she is not who she is now, but her H believes a lot of the stuff she is saying.

But with the help here and the stuff I have printed off for him to read hopefully that will help keep his siprits up.

Thanks

I hope you will continue supporting her in doing the right thing. She needs to work on the marriage that she has now. It is always harder to do the right thing and it would be easier to just divorce and start over. But part of being married is getting through the hard things.

I think that you should really start calling up OM and telling him to leave your DD the heck alone. There have been many stories of affairs broken up by the MIL. OM probably doesn't even know that you and your family despise him and won't welcome him to your family. Your daughter has been filtering that out for him. Most OM will walk away when the heat gets turned up because the A is more trouble than they are willing to deal with.

Well, I don't know about the "many" stories that Jim is referring to, but I'd sure like to! I think it is WONDERFUL when parents stand up for what is right with their children...I especially feel that way because, Mr. W and myself are one of those stories...

YMD, I am a FWW...My mother was instrumental in why my affair ended and Mr. W and I now are in a very happy recovered marriage...And like Jim suggested, she did call OM herself after discussing what would be said with Mr. W...OM dumped me the very next day-THANK GOD-I don't know what would have happened if that intervention would not have taken place...I can't tell you how grateful I am to both my mom and Mr. W and I tell them often...I am awed by how much they both love me...I am very blessed...

I think calling OM and letting him know that you will NEVER accept him into your family could go a long way...Tell him that he will NEVER be allowed to darken your doorstep-EVER...And I think you should personally speak to his parents too...Tell them you need their help and also let them know tht you won't be accepting their son into the fold...Will you do that YMD?

You are a wonderful mom YMD...One day your daughter will thank you...

Mrs. W

Well I did it, called the OM what an looser and biggest AS___e. He says they love each other and will be together wether we liked it or not. ( after 4 weeks) PLEASE!! He could care less if I was a part of his life or not and has no disire to step on my doorstep. He states he will be moving to Florida for a job and will be asking D to go.

I will continue to voice my objections to the D and have her H continue in Plan A. H also called his parents since he lives at home and the response was he is 30 years old and a man he will do want he wants. How about you live under my roof and I will have none of this going on.

I just hope D comes around before it is to late. I don't know how much more the H can take. He is a good old country boy and they have their own type of justice and the kicking while he is down is not going over well.

Thanks

Good for you!

Now it's all out in the open. They both know exactly where you stand.

He's very insecure.

He's so concerned about you not liking him that he wants to move away to protect his A from you.

I doubt he'll do any kind of moving...this guy sounds like such a slacker it's difficult for him to get his rear end off the couch, let alone move to another state.

My suggestion is to plan A her too....no arguing or trying to educate her, simply speak your truth... And reverse babble w/ her.

Spend as much time as you can w/ her. Let him worry about what you might be saying to her about him. It will cause all sorts of love busting between them. He will insist that she stop speaking to you. And if you are plan Aing her, it will be tough for her to do that. Soooooo, lots of love busting will go on between them.

~ Marsh

Could very well be they want this freeloader out of their house so badly they will support anything that might get him to move out. That or they are off the charts co-dependent and will do anything they think will keep him happy.

Trashy irresponsible parents beget trashy irresponsible children. This OM doesn't even have shame.

This is great news (depending on how far Florida is from you). Likely the WW won't commit to OM either, and it will take a commitment from her to get her to move to Florida. Doing so would probably mean giving up all rights to her children, and then she would be on the hook for child support. If she moves, her BH should file for legal separation and get custody and child support. You see, WS's don't like consequences and reality, and she will get a big slap of both if she loses her children and has to pay a huge chunk of change for child support.

Also repeated calls to him and his family will start to cause friction over time. Just because your call didn't SEEM to have an affect, doesn't mean that it didn't. The fact that he is moving bodes very well for your SIL. In fact, the OM in my situation moved away assuming my WW would follow him. Guess what? Never happened. Once I started standing up for myself and not allowing her to contact OM, the A died a quick death.

YMD,

One thing you cannot do, is "educate" your daughter on this. She is in the middle of an affair and anything that suggests that this affair, and this man is NOT right will be rejected. Help your son-in-law as much as you can, but also expect him to educate himself.

If your Daughter suggests that it is not her affair and OM, then suggest that she have no contact with OM for 6-8 weeks, and see if things don't change in her views. She won't go 6-8 weeks without contacting OM, because she is addicted to him.

You are doing a good job and I know this is very very hard on you. Make sure you take time for yourself and also suggest that son-in-law does the same.

Hang in there, most affairs do end and then the real work begins.

God Bless,

JL

If your SIL cannot continue like this much longer, it is time for him to go to plan B. You can find out more about plan B in the Q&A and articles links at the top of the page. Your DD still goes over to SILs house all the time and is still getting some of her ENs met by him. Now he should protect his love for her by cutting off all contact with her until she has agreed to his plan B conditions. Usually these involve:

1) NC w/ OM for life.
2) Complete openness and honesty.
3) MC
4) Respecting all his other marital boundaries to protect this from happening again.

At the same time, your DD will start to hurt because she isn't getting some of her ENs met by your WIL anymore. The OM probably cannot meet all her ENs, so the A starts to crumble, and she winds up coming back to the marriage. Have your SIL over, and we can help him prepare for plan B. Is there a plan B expert here at this forum that is willing to talk to her SIL because he doesn't have internet?

Thanks for the advice, I will print out the infor on Plan B so that my SIL can read it. I had a long talk with my D this morning and I am having a hard time telling if she is just playing a game or if this is really effecting her. She crys all the time and tells me that her H will not forgive her even if he says he has and she can't see working on this and then him saying no he can't forgive her.

I told her until she quits with the OM nothing will be resolved and she says he is only being supportive and her friend right now. I also told her that she needs to forgive herself and she at this time can't.

I hope she is truely starting to feel remorse and not playing us so she can continue seeing the OM.

YMD, this is a clever WS ruse to rationalize staying in an affair. She is not done with her affair or she would be looking for ways to come back and earn his forgiveness. Don't pay too much attention to her babblings. She is in the throes of an addictive affair.


And the reason she can't forgive herself is because she is still doing something WRONG. Forgiveness has to be earned.

YMD,

Did you inform her as to what the OM said about her?? Does she know he expects her to leave and go to Florida with him?

I think she does and I think you telling her what OM said will make either him a liar or her in this little matter that OM is "just a friend".

Think about it.

God Bless,

JL

Oh man what a roller coaster ride this is gonna be. All of her crying and saying no one can forgive me and I can't forgive myself so how can my H. I deserve all of the pain I carry. What a bunch of Crap. She is now out with the OM and turned her phone off.

If I meet her today I would not like this person she is now. My daughter and I are very close since her father was killed in a car accident when is was 10, and I choose to raise her and be the best mother and father I could be. We have been through a lot, me surviving cancer, working 2 jobs to help her through college. I just don;t understand the way she is acting.

She has asked her H to come to her marathon on Sunday, but yet she is out with the OM tonight. H is of course devasted but I gave him the pep talk about no LB and not take any of her calls and I will not be there for emotional support either, let the OM do that since she has made the choice.

You guys are great and I have printed out lots of information for her if she does choose to come home to her H.

Thanks

YMD,

Now if your daughters H is in plan A, he might want to come out and support her. It is part of meeting her needs. I would strongly suggest that you or SIL go to Barnes and Noble and get Surviving an Affair by Harley. It lays out this stuff and the mechanisms of affair pretty well.

Of course she doesn't think he will forgive her, she does not want to be forgiven right now. She is still in the affair and forgiveness would mean the affair has ended. What she won't know but you do know is that he loves her far more than she loves him or herself for that matter. That can change once the affair is over.

Please read about plan A and talk to SIL. Also see if you can find that book and let SIL read it. It is easy reading and it is NOT full of psycho babble. It is told from the point of view of couples going through exactly what SIL is going through. He will recognize many things when/if he will read it.

It is tough rearing a child by yourself. You should be honored for your efforts and you like SIL did NOT have any say in this affair, so you should not take any of the blame.

Hang in there and help SIL as much as you can.

God Bless,

JL

Needing major help here folks. My D was with the OM last night and then calls her H this morning and wanted to go to breakfast. They go and she says she would like him to sign the divorce papers so her attorney will not charge her more money to have new ones drawn up. He says will I am really busy at work right now, but I will think about. They go on to have a nice day and end up at H's home which is the martial home and talk and one thing leads to another and she iniates sex with H.

He used protection which is good, but now she is saying she loves him and they can be best friends with benefits. H thinks that this is part of Plan A, leaving her with good feelings and hoping this will bring her back.

She has called me and wants H and I to attend her Marathon on Sunday and plans on having all to dinner Monday night to celebrate.

I have told her H that this could be let me have my cake and eat it to. H stated that she said he didn't have to sign the papers just make changes and then send them to her attorney and after that they could just not sign the papers.

H has been dealing with this great, he has gone out with friends, gone to horse shows and done major stuff around the house. She is the pursueing him.

Where do we go from here?

Maybe her husband should contact the OM and let him know about the great sex they had together.

That she is "cheating" on the OM.....

Hmmmmm


I don't know.

I think maybe husband and mom should go to Plan B right after the marathon. Hug her, give her the letter, and have an attorney have LS papers wtih custody of the kids to dad ready to go for next week. Let her go to Florida with the dream-slacker.

After all, once you're sitting on the beach in FL with your dream-slacker, no job, hungry, nowhere to sleep, mom won't talk to you, husband won't take your calls, and you haven't seen your kids, and your dream-slacker turns out to be a controlling lazy child, and the sand chafing the crack of your butt, you might begin to think about your not-so-bad marriage. And go home to reality.

Maybe she will figure this out sooner, rather than later on the beach.

SB

YMD,

Can't you get your SIL to come here?

When she brings up D, he must tell her that he doesn't talk D....only M.

And he must also let her know that IF she goes ahead w/ the D, they will NEVER be friends. That's something she needs to understand. It's part of her fantasy that everything will work out peachy keen. And all will be friends afterwards.

She needs to know that's not how it's going to be.

Try to get your SIL to come here.

Hang in there!

~ Marsh

OK went to the Marathon today for D and H rode with me. She finished the race and beat her previous record, asked us to go to a horse show that was in town, so H agreed and we all went. Had a wonderful time, H and D got along great, she reached for and held his hand the whole time, they laughed and joked the whole day.

It was very nice, and I reminded her at a bathroom break that we would not have had this nice of a day if the OM was with her. She just looked suprised and I didn't say more.

She later told H that this day did not change anything and he just laughed and said you want to go get a beer and preztel. She put her arms around him in the car and fell asleep on his lap. Her cell phone did not ring one time or she had it turned off.

Just keep us in your prayers and I am still reading and learning and have given H a bunch of material to read, and also got him the book Surviving an Affair.

Thanks all I will keep you posted and let me know your thoughts.

Sounds like he did an awesome job, Yes! Tell him to just continue to make lovebank deposits like this and the OM will pale in comparison. Can he not get himself a computer and get online?

Ok I am the BS and it is my wife who is having an affair. We have been having some great times together, but she still insist it is over. I don't think she has stopped contact with the OM.

I am doing what I call Plan A and Plan B, I do not contact her unless she contacts me. She has moved out to a friends house and she will do all the contacting. When she does I am very upbeat and happy, we went to breakfast on Sat and Sun spent the entire day toghter. She left for her place Sunday night and I was a little down but didn't show her that.

She is in contact with the OM but I think that is slowing coming to an end. She stated that she can't be in our martial home now, but maybe later. We have not talked R and I am just taking it one day at a time.

I do not have a computer so my MIL is printing off stuff for me. so any thoghts I am open to them?

I sure hope that I can save this M because I do love her and want to grow old with her.

Thanks

Yes' SIL

You are doing a real good job. You are making love deposits and she will feel them and remember. Your WW is a CLASSIC cake eater. Don't take to heart anything that she says. Really. WS follow a script and she is doing that now. Plan A when you can. Don't look pathetic or needy. Be a man that any woman would want. Work on you. Your WW will notice even if she doesn't comment. Be strong.

BTW, your MIL is awesome.!!

Hang in there SIL/BS ... you're doing GREAT!!!

I hate that you're going through this, but I love to see proactive BHs that take positive ACTION to save their M from their WWs. You're getting good sound advice, and dammit, you're following it!!!

I have nothing to add ... just support for your continued strength from one "good ole country boy" to another. Keep it up, man!!!

First off, I totally agree with those who have commended you for being a mother who stands up to her adulterous child!!! VERY RARE these days!!! I think if more people realized it was like an addiction, and that the things adulterers declare should not be believed (claiming the marriage is 'over'... that they are 'in love'), then more people would choose to NOT 'support' it when their friends or relatives get involved in adultery. The stand you have taken is similar to a parent choosing to confront their child who has gotten hooked on alcohol or drugs. You are doing the right thing to help your daughter shake this powerful addiction. Good for you.

I also agree with Marsh about the unlikelihood that the OM will move out of his parents' home, let alone move to Florida and take your daughter with him. He sounds like a momma's boy to me, still living at home at 30 years old. I would have laughed in his face if he voiced that plan in my presence LOL.

And I agree with Jim that even though your phone call to the OM didn't seem to have any affect, it most likely is. But because of false pride, spite, stubborness (whatever) the adulterers feel a need to hide the fact that exposure spoils the adultery.

She seems to be under the delusion that cake-eating (which is common during Plan A) can become a premanent arrangement... IMHO your SIL should stay in Plan A for now. She apparently realizes she DOES want and need certain things from her husband (um 'friendship'...) For now, as long as he can stand it without losing his cool or self-esteem, your SIL should allow her to get her needs met... But then when he goes to Plan B he should make sure that ALL her access to him comes to a screeching halt and that the ONLY way she gets to continue having him in her life is by ending the adultery.

If her adultery partner REALLY was worth leaving her husband over then she would not be still wanting to spend time with her husband, wanting to dictate that her husband still be her 'friend' even though she wants a quick divorce. She doesn't want to admit she's made a big mistake and doesn't want to give up the OM... BUT she also is showing clear signs that she also doesn't want to give up getting her needs met from your SIL. Your SIL needs to make it crystal clear that once the divorce is final (and/or once he goes into Plan B) she loses her husband and will ONLY have the OM. Again, regardless of all her let's hurry up the divorce talk, she thinks she's going to get to keep both men.

It sounds as if your SIL is doing a very good Plan A. Doing a good Plan A will give him the confidence he needs to STAY in Plan B once he gets there without caving.

Addictions are evil. With a mother and husband who TRULY love her enough to confront her, she stands a much better chance than most of coming through this with her sanity intact. Right now she is tempted to take the kudos and 'support' of those who fail to oppose adultery because she's afraid to face her guilt, afraid she can't be truly forgiven. You can assure her that it is BECAUSE she is loved that her bad choice is being challenged. Deep down she knows who really loves her, and yes, loves her enough to forgive and help repair the damage she's causing.

Thanks so much for the reply, but did some major damage tonigt. I am out of town for work and using a friends computer, but when I called her tonight the OM answered her cell phone and I went crazy. Yelled at her, she is staying at our martial home taking care of things while I am out of town. She said he didn't come into the house but was outside and she went in to get something to drink and he just answered her phone.

I had my Dad drive by and no one was outside but his vehicle was there. so called and told her this is it, she is still lying and I can't take anymore so I will sign her papers as soon I see my lawyer and get out my life. I asked her if this is want she wanted and of course she said yes. I asked so there is noway you want to fix this and she said I didn't say that. I asked did she even love me and she said I didn't say that. You said you were done and I dont want to talk about it anymore.

Now I made the threat out of anger but I guess I have to follow through, even if it isn't what I want.

Help with any suggestions.

Thanks

You HAVE to follow through? Really? Is someone putting a gun to your head? If it isn't what you want, don't do it. Especially since you know you only agreed to do so in a highly emotional state. You know you did some damage. Don't make it worse by signing papers.

Also, it is not unreasonable for you to request that OM not answer your WW's phone nor be in your home. But 'going crazy' and yelling are probably not the best ways to make those requests.

Oh, and don't ask WW if she loves you. If the answer is 'Yes' you'll be confused by the fact she's spending time with OM. If she says 'No' you'll be hurt. Plus it won't help you end her A or rebuild your M.

Mr. BH,

Two can deny reality.

Meaning you can deny ever having said the above about agreeing to the divorce. Just don't follow through as though you never said it. Sit on the paperwork, if any. Then, if pushed, say you need to hire and run it by your own attorney. You talk marriage...attorney's speak divorce.

I am presuming you two don't have children.

In that event...in short order I'd be changing the locks on the marital home...so as to keep OM out of my house whether I'm in town or not and then going to Plan B.

Both YOU and MIL should Plan B her.

In short order = maybe a week or two more of Plan A and to get your situation, your plan B letter, your timing figured out.

It should be highly effective if BOTH you and MIL do it at the same time. You both have been meeting many of her needs and she should crumble if you both simultaneously leave her with only OM. He CAN'T meet all her needs.

Amazingly...when you don't speak or see her...the lying stops.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - her access to money should be cut off as well.

Well the only thing worse than makinga stupid promise is keeping it.

I agree with MrW too - lock her out.

Thansk so much for the replies. She called and said she wanted to talk this weekend, I just said OK and left it at that/

Called my MIL and she is ready to do the Plan B and will be printing out some sample letters for me also. I didn't want it to come to this since she is an only child and MIL has always been close, they talk several time a day. MIL said she isn't worried since this person is not her daughter and no matter what happens she made her bed and has to lie in it. MIL said that when she helped light the unity candle that she took it seriously and her D did not.

I will see what the weekend brings, but this is really hard and I know I can do this, but sometimes it feels like only person trying to save this marriage is me.

It really helps to have this place to come to for support and I promised MIL if I needed to yell and vent I would call her and not my WS.

Good idea! Or come on here and yell to us. We will understand. I agree that you should not sign those divorce papers.

Another thing to consider if you think you can do this without beating him up, is to confront the OM and ask him what his intentions are with your wife. Ask him, very calmly to explain himself. See, most OM are cowards and this shakes them up. It will also give him a chance to put a name to a face. No doubt she has been demonizing you, so it will help for him to see you are a real, normal man.

My D calls me this morning which is after the blow up with her H last night. I am at a lose as to how to even speak to this person. She told me that I didn't love her and that she is done with her M and I should just accept it. I asked her if she was still in contact with the OM and she says yes. I told her that she could not heal and forgive herself until she stopped.

She is not going to stop and she told me that she in fact did love her H but couldn't be married to him for the rest of her life. She then started crying about how he has been her best friend for 5 years. I said well having your H be your best friend was in fact a good thing.

I also told her that marriage was like that race she ran and when she wanted to quit, she didn't she kept going and her M was gonna be like that. She says she feels so bad about her H and I said don't be he will infact be fine when he is over this and can move on, you are in fact in denial and will have the hardest time recovery because you will wake up and realize all you have thrown away and it will be to late.

I just ended the coversation with that I did love her but did not approve of what she was doing and I could not continue this way so that we will not talk for quite some time.

Please help?, I am sick to my stomach and feel my SIL's pain, he is trying so hard but you all know with the talk WS have that it is hard. She once again wants him to sign papers and do it now. He said he will not.

Thanks

How long has this been going on. Your daughter is a classic cake-eater. If your SIL has been at this for several months now, I would advise that he go to plan B. That would include changing the locks, cutting off all financial ties (including insurance, cell phone, etc.), writing a plan B letter, and having NC with your DD. I think your DD NEEDS her H to stay friends with her, and that him cutting off all contact with her will make her crumble and cut off contact w/ OM.

In the plan B letter your SIL should have the following conditions:
1) NC w/ OM for life.
2) Complete honesty and transparency (access to email, cell phone, accounting for time, etc.).
3) Moving back into the marital home.
4) Marriage coaching with a pro-marriage counselor.

I find that your DD is a classic fence-sitting cake-eater, and only plan B will get her off the fence. Your SIL needs to make it very clear that he will never contact your DD again unless she agrees to the PBL conditions. The line that made my WW think was when I told her that she was "dead to me."

MIL,

Your influence here is key.

I know in the back of your mind you can't even begin to comprehend losing your daughter for life. I don't ever think that will be the case. Someday...no matter how this washes out you and she WILL reconcile. Affairs ALL end and this OM is a piece of crap so you can bank on it. Even if SIL and DD divorce...there will be a reconciliation with you someday (perhaps after a much deserved apology/repentence despite the divorce to SIL).

That being said...don't let DD knows this. You see...WS's bank upon the BELIEF that one day everyone else will come to realize it was for the best. They just presume everyone will become alright with their actions. When you go to Plan B she must be disabused of that notion.

Your Plan B must be firm and it will be the hardest thing you've ever done in your life...but, more than even SIL...it should have a substantial effect. People can lose their spouse...it's done all the time and people seem to recover; however, losing your mother too, not so much. Especially considering she's lost her father already I just don't see how any OM could withstand that sacrifice and the resulting quid pro quo of such loss.

You see...she'll try to fake it for a bit and OM will try to tell her "we don't need them" but he'll be gravely mistaken. A single OM with a "girlfriend" crying incessantly for hours at end and just plain miserable all the time is NOT PARADISE. It will wear on him until it's just not worth it.

With both you and SIL Plan B'ing her...I don't give the affair a chance. Hopefully...it will end soon enough for SIL to still be around but with your assistance and support I have great hope.

IMO...the sooner you to come together on a Plan B the more love that will remain in SIL's love bank for the forthcoming recovery process.

Mr. Wondering

This has only been going on for 6 weeks. My SIL and D use to do everything together and when she was so busy for a week to spend any time with H he started snooping and found out about the OM.

She will spend time with the OM and then call H to spend time with him. She has told both of us that even if it doesn't work with the OM she still wants to D. She does say that she loves her H and when she thought that he had someone at the house she came over and threw a fit. It was the neighbor who was talking to H about racing.

I have started Plan B today and am trying to get SIL to go to Plan B, but he is very worried about no contact since he feels he LB big time when the OM was at the martial home.

He has cut off all money and even makes her pay her share of the martial home.

I just want you all to know what a god send you are in this terrible tradey and thank you all for your prayers and support.

YMD,

When I threatened to Plan B my daughter, I told her the things that were in the Plan B letter. I said that I would not be able to talk to her for "awhile", in order to preserve my love for her, because the choices she was making and the things she was doing were making it too difficult for me to talk to her without being angry. And that that anger was slowly eating away at my love for her, and I never wanted for my love to disintegrate - so the only way I could see to preserve my love, and hold on to our relationship was to not speak or contact her for awhile. That any emergency contact, or business contact would have to be through her dad or sister, but our conversations, talks, and time spent together and outings would no longer take place - because the things that made her "happy" were things that destroyed my heart - and I could not rectify them. And I did not know how long it would take me to do that.

She fell silent.

She asked if I still loved her at all.

I said I did, that of course I did.

She said she didn't understand - and I restated.

She said she didn't want me to stop talking to her. That she didn't think my decision was "fair", and that love was supposed to be "unconditional".

And so I said,

"Love IS unconditional. RELATIONSHIPS, however, ARE conditional. And the condition of our relationship right now is that I cannot deal with the choices you are making, and I need some time to decide what to do with it. And during that time, I cannot talk to you, because it hurts too much, and erodes my love for you. That, right now, is the condition I place, unless you change your mind about your choices in your life."

She didn't know what to say, and cried. She begged, pleaded, and cried some more. Then she told me that she was not "married" to the choice (interesting choice of words, because the issue wasn't infidelity!). That she was more than willing to talk about other ideas, other choices, and other ways to live her life, that would meet me and her dad halfway - and that she really didn't WANT to do what she said she was going to do after all. That what she so adamantly insisted she was going to do

wasn't really what she wanted.

She said it was more about being "grown up"

and doing what she WANTED to do

and not doing what she was TOLD to do

and being HAPPY

and not conforming

and following a fantasy

and feeling "free".


But if it meant costing her "everything" (I guess that meant me!), then

nevermind

She was willing to rethink her position.



So, Plan B works.


Don't be afraid, mom.

You have so much invested in her from your side.

But she also has so much invested in you from hers.

You won't give up on her, let her know that.

Because she will come back. Mine came right away. Yours might take a little longer, but that phone WILL ring.

And your heart will lift, because she knows exactly what's happening.

She just doesn't want to be told what to do right now.

Like, you know, she's like, maybe, 15 again, you know.

It happens.

SB

I have a little different take on a parent doing Plan B. In some cases, it is best NOT to go dark. You may be the only source of trusted wisdom left for your adult child. My husband and I were in that situation not too long ago. We were very disappointed when DIL had a short term EA, and not long afterwards, angry son had an EA of his own. We felt like cutting them both loose during this crap, but instead chose to be here to talk sense into them, and also because the very small grandchildren had no other sane people in their life. They are currently trying to put their marriage back together, and give us much credit for being the safe place they could run to and vent, both as a BS or a WS.
I do see the wisdom of Plan B for a spouse, but since parents don't divorce their children, I'm not sure that Plan B applies.

Now let me make clear, we did NOT in any form or fashion condone the EAs. In fact, we ran the risk of making them angry by "preaching to them" as they say, and in reminding them of the REALITY of what their lives would be like, and the kids' lives would be like, if they didn't straighten up.

I honestly think if we had gone dark on them, they would be divorced now, or still engaged in EAs.

I want to applaud you both for your efforts ... you've both done great considering the circumstances. However, when I first read about WW taking OM into the marital home, I thought that would likely be the dealbreaker for your SIL even if WW started to peak out from the fog.

You once described SIL, as a "good ole country boy" or something like that, and as one myself, that type personality doesn't take well to having their face rubbed in it. Maybe he's different, &/or other circumstances will allow him to get past that most troubling aspect, but I'm afraid that may wind up being the "last straw" for your SIL.

Unless he can get some other type of "satisfaction" from the OM, some humiliations are just too much to get past, and the fact that this particular OM is such a loser (30 years old, unemployed, 4 DUI's, lives at home, etc.) only adds to the humiliation your SIL is feeling.

Well, I called the OM's father again today and just let him know how much time my D has been spending with her H and how we all had a wonderful time this weekend and once again asked him to man up and tell his son to quit running around town with a married women. Told him to quit letting them hang out in his home and that my daughter is on all kinds of medication and she can't think straight and please keep his son at home. That I would never accept him and that my D uncles want to find him and do some bodily harm.

Well thank for all the support and letting me vent.

Hopefully this will end soon, I just could not sit by and do nothing knowing she will be ruining her life.

I know no matter what happens that my SIL will be Ok, you see he is a great man and a loyal man and my D is lucky to have found him. She is the one that after the fog clears will be a basket case because it will be to late and she will never recover.


SIL is now concerned that I drove D to him even more and he is going to suffer for this.

I think you did just fine YES....Keep the pressure up as far as I am concerned.

Just curious, but what was the OM's father's response to your statements?

I felt that same thing after my MIL got involved fighting for my marriage on my behalf (as my wife pointed out above my MIL single-handedly got OM to break off the affair with my wife).

It's not the case...they may be appear to be consoling each other and more determined than ever but that is just a show put on by the both of them. Right now...it's likely they are both individually cracking...however, neither are certain enough YET to know so they continue down their adulterous path desperately trying to keep the other from knowing they are having second thoughts. You can't get "hit" of addictive adulterous "love" if you demonstrate any hesitation...so they don't. Doesn't make the cracks in the foundation go away....they are still there AND GROWING BY THE MINUTE>

They may be clutching in chaos...which is not nearly as fun, exciting or romantic as frollicking in affair secrecy.

You see...affairs THRIVE in secrecy. Adultery is not real. OM IS no comparison to SIL. It's obvious but if everyone just leaves WW alone she can continue to deny it. Reality is the antithesis of a secretive love affair. The more light shone on the adulterers the better.

Good luck...to both of you.

Mr. Wondering

I forgot this point I wanted to make.

SIL indicated he was afraid he'd "suffer for this".

One thing that helped me is I seemingly distanced myself from my MIL. My wife had no idea...for quite some time that MIL and I collaborated to some extent in breaking up the affair. I didn't indicate that MIL and I were speaking regularly and I was relying heavily upon her support.

I think you two would be wise to do the same. MIL's Plan B should seemingly be unrelated to SIL's Plan B and neither one done at the other one's prompting.

If and when this situation gets to recovery...be aware...foggy thinking still rules the day. The rationalizations and justifications that went into making these horrible choices will not go away overnight. If WW "feels", no matter how unrealistic such feeling is, that her husband tried to take her mother away from her she is likely to be resentful of quite some time against him. This only makes recovery harder.

Thus...MIL must be careful to support SIL but doing it in a way which conveys this is HER BOUNDARIES and HER CHOICE. It's less to SUPPORT SIL and more PARENTAL. Also...for the time being and for quite some time into recovery MIL must continually reinforce that SIL had nothing to do with her choices and Plan B....maybe even giving the impressiion that he told her NOT to do it as though he was protecting his wife from losing her mother.

Hope that makes sense.

In early recovery it was very easy for me to support my wife in withdrawal after OM dumped her because she had no idea that MIL and I had anything to do with it. I became her soft place to land and resquare her mind.

Mr. Wondering

He said that he will do what he can. I told him about her spending the weekend with her H and then his sons calls her, and he should be the man and quit running around with a married women. I said he is living in your home and you are allowing this to go on. Please be a man yourself and just say no she is not welcome in our home. Your son is not welcome in my home now or ever.

I told him that my D is on 3 different types of pills, and seeing a therapist and his son needs to back off.

He said I will do what I can. I said if you can't so anything then I will have to call his mother, he wanted to know how I had gotten his number, I told him from his sons criminal recored.

Me too! As parent you aren't going to implement Plan B because you don't love her, it is because you do!



She is all over the place isn't she? Wonder who she will cry to when you aren't there to listen? I'd bet the OM doesn't "do it" for her!

This affair is not going to take long to implode if she doesn't have you or SIL's shoulder to cry and waffle on!

I like how you told the OM's father how you got his phone number! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> Keep the pressure on!

She's an only child? Well so am I. No reason she is any more special than those with siblings. Being an only child doesn't get you a "special" break.

As hard as this seems to you right now, you ARE BOTH doing a GOOD JOB! It is a matter of time!

YMD,

I commend you and your SIL. My mother use to tell us "I will always love you but I don't have to like you." when she was mad at us, particularly my sisters. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I think that is the situation you find yourself in: loving her, but not liking who she is right now.

I agree with Mr. W. You and SIL should talk and coordinate actions, but from your D's point of view appear to be acting separately.

As for SIL's fear that you or he might push D toward OM, fear not. She is already with OM, he has lost her. It is that simple. The data is clear, she is with OM, she wants divorced papers signed. SIL has NOTHING to fear now.

The only hope is for the affair to end and it most likely will. Plan A should be for a few months, but if SIL is having a hard time avoiding LB's, then it is time for plan B. Further, he shouldn't be too worried about yelling at her for having OM at THEIR house. That is a very clear boundary for most people, and D/W needs to know that.

She is definitely eating cake, and she is definitely dilusional if she thinks she has much of a chance to reconnect with her H AFTER the divorce. Most people don't find people capable of lying, cheating, and rubbing their noses in it, as candidates for friendship. Her H will not either IF she succeeds in getting him to sign.

When he signs, he will hurt, he will wonder what if, he will second guess himself, but he will also being walking away. She seems to think he is not going anywhere when he signs these papers.

She won't see any of this now, in the fog of the affair. She will later IF she were to go with OM, or simply divorces her H and eventually leaves OM.

YMD you and your SIL are really going through all of this for her, more than you are for your own benefit. Once SIL decides he has given enough this will be over, your D hopefully will figure things out before then.

Must go, tell SIL to hang in there and remember you can love her and not like her at the same time.

God Bless,

JL

Wow this is all happening so fast. The OM called me I guess my cell phone number whas on his dads phone. I informed him of the nice weekend she had with her H and how I was with them on Sunday and she did all the trying for affection, she held his hand, she walked with her arm around him and fell asleep with her head on his lap. I also let him know about the sex she had with her H. I said wow how do you like that she is cheating on her H with you and cheating on you with her H. I also told him that I watched SIL and D ineract and I knew she loved her H. I also aked him how can you ever trust her, I mean really how can you.

I said you need to back off totally and leave her alone until she cleans up her own house. I said you have known each other for 6 weeks come on how can you really know and love someone in 6 weeks.

He did not have much to say, but I was sure to let him know that I would hurt him if I ever saw his face.

Well we will see how it goes now. Man this feels so good to know I am fighting for her and she doesn't even understand why.

Thanks

Be careful about indicating "you will hurt him" as he very likely could have been taping the telephone conversation and then turn around and slap a Restraining Order on you.

It would be hilarious...but not unprecedented.

Typically...they just THREATEN legal action and attempt to manipulate everyone else into just being quiet and allowing to just flow for another day and then another day and so on.

They are drug addicts concerned only about their fix.

You have stated your piece...now go silent. The hornets nest has been stirred enough for this week. Sit back and take cover lest you get bit.

Mr. Wondering

Damn, I am at work and normally let my phone go to voice mail but my supervisor was at my desk so answered and it was my D. She is laughing and saying that she set me up to talk to the OM and it didn't do anything they were still going to be together and she is still getting a divorce.

I just hang up the phone and will continue to let it go to voicemail. She also said that everyone thinks I am patheic and should love her uncondinally.

Damn, I am just so sad and sick to my stomach, how can this be the daughter I raised. She said she was done with me and have a nice life.

Thanks

Out of the mouths of the fog bound!

It's so hard, when you KNOW how you raised them, boy DO I remember, please don't take anything she says personally! It is hard to wrap your brain around what you are hearing!

Translate her latest exchange with you into: blah, blah, blah, blah.......and more blah! Maybe we can find the fogbabble translation thread for you!

Sadly YMD.......I dont think anything is going to help this situation. I praise you for your efforts, but I also feel that sometimes when a parent or friend tries to intervene and breakup an affair, it just makes it stronger. At least IMHO. My EX wifes parents loved me to death, and basically said they would never accept the OM. Well, we ended up divorced and she was with (married) OM for over 4yrs. He finally decided to keep his marriage in tact. All the hard work my former inlaws put in on my behalf, didnt help one ounce.

I have an explanation for the fog babble.

She's got to convince her drug dealer (OM) that what you are doing is having no effect on her.

She likely even said these things with HIM right on the phone line listening in. OM set this up so WW could hear for herself just how awful her mother is (likely he believes that you story about the weekend with SIL was a lie so he got to prove MIL lied and said awful hurtful untrue things to him...when it's WW lying to him the whole time)

Her fear is that if she waivers...OM gets insecure. Insecure OM does not deliver the really got affair drug. Instead he REQUIRES her to provide him with reassurances and the like which isn't fun for her. To much reality.

Stay quiet. This is the hornet nest you are to avoid.

They are going to implode.

Mr. Wondering

Mr. W gave you a great explanation and great advise to stay
quiet!

Here is more of the foggyness:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...e=3#Post3315980



Yes, indeed they are!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

OMG, my D is truly an alien. I come home from work and she has left a message on my answering machine since I am not taking her callse. This was just 5 minutes ago. She says I have ruined her life and she never wants to speak to me again becuase the OM has just broken up with her and it was because of the lies I told him.

I told him the truth, I was there I know what happened. She was crying hard and it broke my heart I wanted to reach out to her but haven't.

SIL called me earlier and she had called him and let him know that she couldn't not speak to me and that I had talked to the OM. He said to her, well she is only looking out for your best interest and if it is to hard then don't talk to me for a while. She said OK, that the OM was telling her on several different times that he was getting fed up with the situation and she really doesn't care and it was not going to change her mind.

She then aksed when he would be home and he said he is on his way. and she said how about I stay and cut your hair and then maybe we can watch my favorite show and SIL said OK and I will make spagetti for dinner.

Now don't know what is gonna happen since the OM broke up with her and she is very upset will probably take it our on SIL, but I called and warned him.

Please help me stay strong my heart is breaking.

BE THE BAD GUY.

Let SIL be her support and shoulder to cry on.

She'll come around.

This is very good news...if it lasts. Quite typically the Wayward Spouse gets SOOOO caught up in getting another fix they believe that ending there marriage is the only way to make OM believe their feelings are real. SIL needs to stay strong and no matter what leave the divorce talk to lawyers.

The best answer to "Give me a divorce" is a simple "no".

Hopefully this is the end and in a few short weeks (since the affair only lasted 6 weeks I don't anticipate a long withdrawal) she'll soon be THANKING YOU for helping to save her.

You've done GREAT.

Mr. Wondering

This is a wonderful site and am so thankful that I was able to find it. It has been the only thing to keep me strong and understand the stages of affairs.

I started searching for answers for my SIL to help him but this site has helped me just as much. I would never have contacted the OM or his parents without this site.

I just hope the OM is serious and means it, I told SIL is now his time be the strong one and give her all the support D needs and I will be the bad cop and he can be the good cop.

I told him not to pay any attention to her saying this doesn't change anything because she is still in the fog. He will not sign anything until he is ready to. He told me today that he has broke some pretty stubborn hourses but D is the toughest yet.

Thanks again and keep the support and advice coming.

(((YMD)))

You have done the absolute right thing by your daughter...My heart swells just reading how much you love her...Mr. W is right, allow your SIL to be her savior at this point-her anger at you will dissapate-not to worry...Tell your SIL, as hard as it is, to let her cry over this "break up" to him...It sounds so sick that a BS has to endure that, but that is how things typically go...She will eventually thank you for saving her...

Mrs. W

Well YMD, we around here are very glad that you found MB...It is a pleasure to "know" someone like yourself...So many parents don't respond like you and my own mother did...and it makes a HUGE difference...I'm am continuously shocked by how many parents have a "follow your heart" attitude...that is a travesty...You ROCK YMD...And like I tell my own mom, "you're a pistol"! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

WWs ALWAYS take it out on their BH after their affair ends. This is unavoidable. The key is for the BH to continue to meet her ENs and avoid LBs until she is through withdrawal. Only after several months of NC w/ OM will your DD's opinion of your SIL change. At this time, SIL and you just need to ensure that NC is upheld. If it is, she will slowly and eventually come out of the fog. The beginning of recovery can be harder than the actual affair, especially if NC is broken. Trust us, everything else that we've advised has worked or come true. Almost all of these situations play out the same.

Oh my I don't know how much of this I can take. D shows up at my door, and I had been in the shower so the door was deadbloted so she could not get in. D was on my front proch just balling her eyes out, saying how much she loved the OM and she can't live without him and how could I as a mother do this to her. Please call him and tell him you were lying so he will take me back.

D states she is really in love with him and I just have to understand, she will now for sure D her H because I want them to be together and she will now break my heart just like I did hers.

I didn't even let her see me, I just stayed in the hallway listening to her cry and gasp for breath and yell. I wanted to go to her and put my arms around her and take the pain away. Maybe she did love this guy. No NO NO NO I know this isn't true and I will have to stay strong.

I am not even going to contact my SIL I will just stay the course and see what happens now.

Thanks

Stay the course is exactly what you should do YMD...I cried, screamed and begged in my wayward time after OM dumped me too...It will pass...It's the beginning of withdrawal...This is something your daughter will have to get through based on her own poor choices...It's not fun for her, but it is part of her consequences...Don't get in the way of those consequences...If you caved now, it would be like handing a crack pipe to a crack addict-you wouldn't do that, so don't do what she is asking now either...Remain the strong moral woman that you are...Prayers coming your way...

Mrs. W

Egads.. I -wish wish wish- my FIL could see this..

You are an -awesome- lady.. there's a special place reserved in Heaven for people like you.

Amazing.. simply amazing. While it's not over -you- have pretty much single handedly busted up her A.. she will one day thank you.

It will certainly pass.

WWell, SIL just ccalled and my D is with the OM, she called her H and said that the OM wanted to meet her in person and they are together now.

She told H that she might need him later, but no one has heard from her.

So guess she with the OM.

Now what?

Continue plan B-ing her. If she continues to still see OM for another few weeks, your SIL should plan B her next month as well. I would suggest that he go to plan B before the holidays. I'm sure not having anywhere to go on Thanksgiving will snap some sense into her. You took her crack pipe, and she wants you to give it back. Just stay the course.

Hopefully it's an in-person goodbye but it will most probably mean the affair will continue. They'll have some hot sex and convince themselves they are soulmates.

If your SIL knows where the are he should go there!!!!!!

"D was on my front proch just balling her eyes out, saying how much she loved the OM and she can't live without him and how could I as a mother do this to her. Please call him and tell him you were lying so he will take me back."

I know this must be very difficult for you. But as others have said, this is the equivalent of a crack addict pitifully begging for you to give them back their crack pipe. If there were even the teeniest doubt in your mind that this is an addiction you're battling, this should make it crystal clear to you how hooked she is. She basically is saying that her next fix is more important to her than ANYTHING and EVERYONE else! Clearly she is not thinking clearly. Still I know it must be really tough for you to not try to comfort her at this time.

BTW, my WH said similar things during his last adultery. He sometimes begged, sometimes demanded, that I contact OW (and the police) and tell them liess that would have made me look like a lying lunatic just so he could continue the adultery. He was absolutely desparate. It's withdrawal when they are craving that next fix but not getting it.

Hopefully, your daughter will only have to go through the withdrawal once. If she can stop all contact with the OM for at least 3 weeks the worst part of the withdrawal will be over.

It is an addiction; and it is most certainly NOT 'love'.
Mature, sane, moral love is a choice; addiction is more of a compulsion based on base desires - not a loving choice.

Deep down she KNOWS that what she is doing is repulsive. That's part of why she so desparately wants you to somehow sanction it for her - to make it OK.

She also is seriously suffering under the common delusion that she will somehow manage to keep her husband in her life even if she divorces him. She realizes that she does want and need him too. But because she's an addict, she isn't thinking clearly enough to realize that what she's expecting of him is impossible. IMHO there should be rehab programs we could send loved ones to when they are in the grip of adultery addiction. Because the key is getting them to stay away from that next fix long enough for some clear thinking to surface and to get through withdrawal. (I think that's one of the benefits of the way some states are requiring waiting periods for divorce - it gives some time for the adultery/addiction to end.)

When I was reading about how your daughter was sobbing and asking you to lie to the OM just so she could keep getting her fixes, I couldn't help picturing one of my own daughters in her place. How incredibly sad and scary to see how strongly and quickly adultery addiction can take hold. My prayers are with you, your SIL, and your precious daughter. I pray that she will be able to see that her need for this OM is not natural and healthy - not 'love'.

Well is called H while OM was with her to tell H it was over and he needed to move on with his life. SIL is devasted he can't take anymore right now.

He just told me he isn't sure what he is going to do but I did get him to just calm down and think about what he really wants to do for a couple of days/

Please keep us in your prayers.

Well as predicted, nothing changed and he is no worse off than he was 2 days ago. The situation is unchanged. Stay the course.

Well, I am at work and the OM's Father called me saying that this is all my D's fault and she is stalking his son. He will take a very firm stand with his son about this whole thing because he is afraid it will turn ugly. He did say though that he would not turn his son away if he wanted to continue this affair. I said then it will never end because you are helping.

My D was with the OM last night in a hotel and my SIL found them, had to go get him at 2:00AM so he wouldn't do anything stupid. I don't know if he is done yet or not but was able to get him home and to bed.

I am surely trying to stay strong but I think what I did was pushed her to the OM, she only use to see him 2 times a week and now I think they will be together everyday. She has disowned me so I can't have any influence with her any more.

She also did a Plan B and NC to her H on the behalf of the OM.

Where to from here, don't know but this thing has been going on for 6 weeks how could they really turely know or love each other.

Thanks

YMD, don't worry, the affair will just crumble faster now that they are not sneaking around and it is exposed to the light of day. So much conflict has been injected that this is doomed to failure. He can't "trust" her and she will have unrealistic expectations of him because of what she has sacrificed. The bar has risen on the OM because she has given up her family for him and he won't be able to live up to those expectations. He is a selfish, small man of low character who will never be able to compensate. She is backed into a corner with her OM and his family who has no respect for her.

I think your SIL should sit back and wait a couple of weeks, being as nice and attractive as possible when she contacts him. Then he should go into Plan B.

And yes, she does "love" him but it is a love that is based on fraud and deceit and conflict so it will turn on her, just as a love of CRACK turns on the crack user. Her affair brings out the absolute WORST in her, not the best, so it won't last long.


Sadly, most parents are stupid enough to believe that it is "unconditional love" to enable their child. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Lucky for your DD, you don't!

I know your SIL is hurting right now, but tell him that the affair is on the ropes right now. She only told your SIL that it is over in front of OM, so he wouldn't end it with her. It was a ploy to allow her to get her fix. She has no interest of maintaining NC with your SIL, and you will find out she will break this promise to OM rather quickly.

Jim is right, she will be contacting your SIL. The OM won't be able to meet all of her needs so it won't be long until she sees this and contacts him.

Your daughter's behavior is very typical:

claiming she is 'in love' with the OP

demanding to keep both the OP and the BS in her life

addicted to the fixes that being with the OP gives

expecting everyone to condone the adultery and to pretend it has no negative affect on them so she can (try to) avoid guilt

pretending those who expose and oppose the adultery are just driving her farther away and further into the OP's arms

I agree with the advice that your SIL needs to try to appear as calm and unaffected as possible. If he can't do so while staying in Plan A then he should take steps to get his Plan B ready to put in place.

I also agree that your daughter and the OM spending a LOT more time together will NOT be a positive thing for their adultery. They are reacting to the fact that they are not going to get their way by acting like rebellious teenagers. Only one of them has a parent who loves her enough to say 'no', while the other is obviously parented by wimps who probably have never told their son 'no' (hence he's still a little boy living at home and who in his parents' eyes can do no wrong - I predict he will eventually develop a drug addiction and strip his parents of all their belongings to sell off to buy his drugs - and they'll let him). They think they are punishing you and your SIL by spending so much time together now. They're infected with a juvenile "we'll show them" attitude. They're probably pretending they're Romeo and Juliet... But what they don't realize is that the MORE time they spend together right now the more quickly the adultery will end. They are both in selfish taker mode - neither is really interested in the sort of selfless giving that real love takes. He will gloat a little at having 'won' her away from her husband and he will enjoy the sex... BUT he will not care enough about your daughter to listen much to her talk about her missing her mother and husband. She will want and need him to start providing more emotional support, to help her feel safe and sane... but he was and still is only looking for some cheap thrills.

I think the fact that they went to a motel may mean that he doesn't want his parents to know he and she have increased their time together. Again, in spite of what his parents said to you, most likely they are putting some pressure on their son to end it. Of course, being that he's such a big baby they are choosing to believe that he is some sort of victim of a stalking female now... If/when your daughter catches on to that accusation she is going to want him to defend her to his parents. It's very doubtful he will. A logical response to his failing to do so would be to see him clearly for the spineless loser he is... BUT because your daughter won't be thinking clearly until she shakes clear of her addiction she will probably be angry at you and her husband for destroying the myth that this OM 'loves' her. She will tell you that 'everything was perfect' until you exposed the adultery and that 'you ruined everything'. Just more fog-babble. It will be a while after the fog clears before she will be able to see that it was all just fantasy that couldn't stand the light of day.

IMHO I don't know if I could Plan B my own daughter (have considered it a time or two - different circumstances). I do know that it is right for you to tell your daughter that you love her BUT that you can't condone the adultery. And I do know that the less cake-eating she gets away with and the less support she has for choosing to continue the adultery, the more likely she is to end the adultery.

I will warn you though that in my case when my WH had to end an adultery in order to keep me in his life he always interpreted that as being me 'forcing' him to give up the OW du jour AND 'forcing' him to stay married to me! He not only failed to take responsibility for his adulteries but also never took responsibility for his choice to end the adultery and stay with me. In his mind he really believed he was entitled to BOTH me and the OW. So by my exposing each adultery and telling him I would not just shut-up and put-up, and NO I would NOT continue to be his 'friend', he blamed me for not letting him get what he wanted. In my case this was a bitterness my WH never overcame and never 'forgave' me for... But IMHO my situation is different because my XWH was a serial adulterer. Most likely your daughter will someday thank you and her husband for standing up to her suggestion that she be allowed to keep her adultery partner AND her husband in her life. But for a while she will complain about people trying to 'control' her (um when they don't agree to the demeaning roles she tries to relegate them into to serve her immoral and selfish desires).

Is there anyone else you can expose to that your daughter might listen to? Who are the people that she would most certainly NOT want to know that she is committing adultery? I would exploit the fact that her OM is such an obvious loser - expose to people that she would be embarrassed to present him to.

Also, as long as your SIL is still in Plan A he should plan some fun events with family and friends, invite his wife (but of course OM is excluded). The she is free to choose to spend time with her husband, family and friends instead of with OM. Sure she'll complain that she should be allowed to bring her OM; in her addicted mind she not only will fail to see how wrong and hurtful that expectation is but will think YOU and her husband are being 'mean' by saying he's not invited! It is usually a very effective tactic to extend some social invitations to the wayward spouse at this point: If she accepts the invitation OM will not like it and they will fight over it; if she declines the invitation she will see what she's missing by choosing to be with OM.

OK, one more thing and then I promise I'm done:

Picture your daughter as she was when she was 2 years old. And she's throwing a temper tantrum for something she REALLY WANTS RIGHT NOW! Only the thing she wants is very wrong and very harmful to her. The only loving reaction is to tell her "NO". She will sob and may even say "I hate you", but you know you can't give in. (BTW, even IF the thing she wanted this badly was not a bad thing her extreme need for it would still signal an addictive problem which should be addressed and objected to.)

All those DUI's...

Is OM still on probation???

Maybe expose to his probation officer or the judge.

If he has any hearings scheduled you may show up.

************

Someday soon it's likely that DD will attempt to contact you and corner you to MAKE you speak to her. She will attempt to use the same old "unconditional love" thing and she will probably say SHE is going to disown you again. We have a thing on MB called Reverse Fog Babble. I think a good example of such for you would be:

DD: "I'm disowning you...you are no longer my mother"

You: "I'm your parent...only a parent can disown a child, children can't disown a parent...that makes no sense"

DD: "Who says"

You: "I say...I'm the parent"

DD: "uh...that makes no sense"

You: "yes it does...parents always set the rules...right?"

DD: "I can disown you if I want"

You: "But I'll always be your mom...how can you disown that"


You just keep them going in the circular silly argument and don't allow the words she is using in a deliberate attempt to hurt and manipulate you to get through. She's NOT going to disown you...she's going to be happy and proud of the you for SAVING her from the biggest mistake of her life one day.

SIL...stay strong. 6 week affairs never last. Focus on YOUR integrity. Put yourself 10 years into the future and imagine looking back at how you handled yourself in this difficult situation. No yelling and screaming...no begging or crying. Be her husband...try to protect her and fight for her. Do your best and whatever happens YOU will make it.

Mr. Wondering

Thanks all you are my strenght to get through this. Well D shows up at 6:00AM at SIL doorstep and said that the OM dumped her but then they sorta worked it all out. She has promised to not have any contact with her H, and H said well if that is what you want and need from me then we should have no contact. She says no thats not it I don't care about that it is almost over with him, and is this door still open for me to come home. H says for now I am here for you, but it is up to you.

She says I want to come home someday and I think it will be soon. He kissed her forhead and sent her off to work with call me if you need to talk.

SIL is playing the good guy and I am of course the bad guy. I explained to SIL that he might need to go to Plan B and maybe we should prepard for it.

He is going to see what happens this weekend and then make a decision.

Keep the prayers coming and thanks again.

Oooohhhh I LOVE Mr. W's idea regarding exposure to OM's probation officer and/or the judge...Get to work on that YMD...ANY extra exposure on OM's side of the fence right now would be the final nail in the coffin of this affair...Work on making your daughter FAR too much trouble for him...

Mrs. W

"She also said that everyone thinks I am patheic and should love her uncondinally."


This is nearly a quote from my own daughter.

I told her that love may be unconditional

but relationships ARE CONDITIONAL.


So I could love her, and protect my love for her - by keeping my distance. I told her it was like my fence, only the fence was at the very edge of my space; and I was at the other edge of my space. She couldn't come through the fence. And other people were tending the gate.

I was still there, in her life, but I wasn't available to her. So my love for her remained safe.


I think your SIL handled things well. And he should hang in there just a few weeks more. Her OM is selfish and weak. This "love" of his is more lust than anything, and it is growing less simple by the day. Sorry to say, but your D is getting too heavy for this guy to carry, and he doesn't want to do the work for what he's getting. She says it's almost over - she doesn't know how right she is.

SIL, if he has another conversation with her, should make sure she knows the door will not ALWAYS be open. She's just checked in with him that she has a nice soft place to land. She shouldn't be counting on him to still be waiting till she decides she is done with OM.

Well, last night D and OM broke up again. She ended up going to SIL and staying the night in the Martial Home. SIL couldn't take the sobbing and crying and her pleading with him to sign the Disolution Papers. SIL clamly told her that she needed some time so he would go and spend the night at his friends house.

I guess the OM said you wouldn't see her until after she was divorced. SIL did not talk about that he just kept changing the subject.

D and OM are running out of places to carry on the affair. Maybe his parents are putting on the pressure, but then again this has happened before. This thing has only been going on for 6 weeks.

Hopefully this will come to a conculsion soon and we can start picking up the pieces. I know this is all my SIL wants. SIL does have the conditions on rebuilding and also is ready for Plan B if needed.

i had a mother in law like you.
we no longer talk, we haven't in a year or two. not because of dislike i do not think, but because things have moved on.

she did all she could to help in my marriage. when i told her of all the affairs her son was having and all that was going on, she and her daughter flew here from alaska to talk to my now ex. and there were times before that she and my fil came to talk to him a few years earlier. she was on my side for probably 2-3 years of the ****** i went through. then my fil told her he didn't want her involved anymore. that she could listen to me if i needed to talk and she could do the same for my ex, but he said we needed to work things out on our own. i really wish he would not have done that. i don't think that was right. because after that point, i didn't really have her anymore.

my ex never stopped his behaviors and we not together today. i hung on as long as i could. i did all i could. and he wasn't stopping so i had to end it and move on.

i am not saying that will happen here i am just saying that i was thankful that, while it lasted, i had my mil trying to help me save my marriage.

don't ever stop doing what you are doing.

mlhb

Well need some help here, D called but of course I didn't answer the phone. She left a message on the recorded saying the she if fine, and her and the OM broke up and she is taking a few days to think about things. Says that her H is doing fine, and he is great but maybe it is seeing her being such a basket case. D said call me I want to ask you some things about what the OM said and what the OM's dad said.

I haven't called I think she needs to get her head cleared to think so that when we do talk about this I don't hear any more fog talk.

SIL said when he got home today she had left him a note, saying that she is missed up right now and when things get better she will be able to talk to him all about it.

Where to now folks?

YMD,

Well, the issue is one of context. A plan B is usually in place as long as the wayward spouse is running around with the other person. If your D has broken up with OM, then technically you can speak with her, if that was your condition for not talking with her.

It is your call, it is your plan B.

I think you need to warn SIL to remain in his house and have her leave if he cannot take her whinning and such. I would also warn you that it is possible that your SIL is going to tire of all this pretty soon and dump the W.

She is withdrawing deposits from his heart at a great rate, and she may well push this over the edge. In fact, right now I would bet a great deal of money that YOU are the person he respects and loves more than he does his own W. You have done an amazing job in this.

My recommendation is that if she goes back to OM again, and I suspect she will, that H go to plan B immediately. If he does not the damage may be so great that the marriage will end no matter what your D wants.

Those are my thoughts on the matter.

God Bless,

JL

YMD, JL is right, it is CRITICAL that your SIL DOES NOT LEAVE HIS home again!! He should NEVER DO THAT. We have had men locked out of their homes who had to get court orders to get back in for just spending a few nights away.


He needs to put a stop to this right now and tell her he will not be signing anything EVER. If she wants to divorce him she can go to court and get a divorce all by herself. He should make this very clear to her and not sign anything no matter what she says.

He needs to understand that everything she says right now is said under the intoxicating influence of an addictive affair. As soon as the OM is gone and she sobers up, this will ALL CHANGE. This is why he should not heed her words or do anything that will cause permanent change. Her state of mind is temporary, a divorce is permanent.

Also agree with JL that Plan B is close on the horizon. Her affair is crumbling from all the conflict and it is good that your son is there to make some deposits, but she will soon drain all of his love for her. But for the next few days, at least, your SIL can help himself immensely by being there while her affair implodes and look like the good guy. Your D, no doubt, is lovebusting the OM, and vice versa, which will contribute to its quick death. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

THAT was the primary purpose of her call. She needs information. She's still hopeful she can find a way to turn it around with OM and make him see her. If she only knew about the conversation with OM's father she might find a crack to get back through.

Give her nothing. If you tell her what was actually said...then she'll try to use that...if you elaborate thinking that telling her OM's father was great and felt exactly as you do and forbids their relationship...she'll STILL use that. She just needs details to call OM to "discuss" and try to manipulate with.

Here is a link to an article. It's from another website which is good since it won't attract DD/WW to this website. I strongly suggest printing it out two copies...one at your house and one for SIL to leave laying around his house. Don't hand it to her to read. Waywards don't take well to being educated. Instead leave it laying out where she will find it and read it out of curiousity to see what "garbage" you are reading.

Here's the link --->>>> 31 REASONS TO STOP AN AFFAIR

Good luck...and stay strong. I think you should step back and stay quiet for now. Allow her to RELY on SIL for support and the meeting of her emotional needs. Though...if SIL goes out of town again for work anytime soon DD/WW should be staying with you as a way to demonstrate to her husband she's not out contacting OM. It will be your daughter's obligation to rebuild trust...NOT SIL's responsibility to just hand it to her.

Mr. Wondering

SIL is in turmoil right now, D has told him that she needs a couple of days to think about things and she knows that the OM is not what is needs, but she doesn't think her marriage is either.

Of course since she moved out of the martial home SIL really doesn't know what she is doing. He thinks that he should just be there through this time when she reaches out to him. I told him what you have been saying about plan B and how this might hurt his love for her.

He thinks he needs to be here for D now and if he isn't that will push her back to the OM. We found out the the OM broke it off with her at his father request.

SIL has said he hopes she doesn't try to go back to the OM because if that is the case since she had promised the OM not to contact or see her H that would probably be the end and she will not contact him if D and OM get back.

YMD, your SIL does need to be there for her right now. He just needs to calm down and sit back while the affair crumbles. Tell him he is right to not interfere while the enemy [enemy=affair] is self destructing.

Your D is going to use the next couple of days to try and get the OM back and when that falls through, she will be back. Tell him not to despair, that the affair is in its death throes because of all the conflict wrought by both families.

It sounds as if your SIL is doing a fairly good job in response to your daughter's very typical agenda.

Apparently, in spite of saying otherwise, the OM's parents are telling their son to end the adultery and are objecting to him bringing your daughter to their home anymore. That's great news!

Be careful: In spite of whatever you daughter claims right now her agenda is still to soemhow find a way to keep both the OM and her husband in her life as long as possible. She had to tell the OM she would try to coerce her husband into signing the papers and stop having contact with her husband or else the OM is going to dump her. As Mr. Wondering warned: she wants to quiz you about what the OM's father said on the phone in the hopes of finding some way to twist it to her advantage.

THIS is the part of the adultery that REALLY hurts IMHO: the deceptive mind games the adulterer plays in their desparate attempt to perform cpr on the dying adultery. She has very inappropriate EXPECTATIONS of you and her husband and is not concerned with anyone's feelings. The ONLY thing she is concerned about right now is getting her next fix. And her drug dealer knows that too and will exploit it to his own advantage. But sooner than she realizes he will simply seek out another woman who is a lot less trouble. I've seen adulterers behave this cruelly to even their own children - acting as if they are simply excess baggage preventing them from being carefree and unattached enough to keep the OP's interest minus complications.

But take heart because in MOST cases this stage is temporary. The fact that your daughter hasn't even known this OM for more than two months and that exposure/objection to the adultery happened so soon in the process, is going to work against the adultery.

Also, be aware that sometimes the adulterers claim they have broken up for good several times before it's really over.

OMG, I am at my wits end with this whole thing. I am about ready to just give up. OM called D and accused her H was doing something to his truck. D calls her H and asked him if he did anything to the OM truck and H says no he has been home all day and wouldn't do something that childish.
D says well OM thinks you did.

Then Om shows up at SIL's house with the polic and accuse him of doing something to his truck. SIL says no I didn't and the OM says well your wife thinks you did, so SIL goes off and says man I'm pissed at both of you but mostly at my W since she is cheating and suppose to love me, and man you can have her shes crazy and I am done. The police says that maybe they both should just not talk to each other and leave this alone and told the OM to go home.

Then D calls H and tells him that she is getting an apartment with a friend of both of them who is also cheating and getting a divorce. SIL says how you paying for this since you still have to pay the mortgage and D says I don't know I will figure it out later.

SIL says to her look I have tried my damnest to be there for you but you continue to dig a deeper hole and I just need you out of my life. I don't want to speak or hear from you, I am done. D says you going to sign the disolution papers since you are the one holding this all up. SIL says you know the OM parents hate what you are doing and D says no the OM says his parents love me.

D asked again about the papers and SIL says I have to go and hung up the phone.

I know my D financial situation and she no more can afford an apartment. She has no money after she contributes to the household bills.

I think I have calmed SIL down, he leaves tomorrow for out of town and will be back Monday, and then he plans on going to Plan B.

Wow, you have a very difficult situation on your hands. I can't offer any advise, but keep your head up and tell your SIL that you support him. These situations are the most bizarre human behavior you will ever see.

Ryan.

"the OM broke it off with her at his father request"


I don't believe this is true - probably partly true.

I think OM is growing tired of the drama, and is repeatedly dumping your D. He is no longer in his fantasy world of easy sex, easy-going fun, and no responsibilities. She changed that when they got caught, and she upped the ante by demanding he be her rescuer and expecting him to commit to her.

He doesn't sound like the committing kind to me.

So, as usual, he's blaming someone else for his "having" to do something in his life - "having" to break up with your D.

He probably blames the bartender or friends for his DUIs (they forced him to drink, ya' know).

And blames the job market for his unemployment.

Soon enough, he will blame your D for this mess. And she won't like him for that.

Tell your SIL it's only a matter of time - just hang on, it's about to hit the fan in turdville.


SB

Agree with schoolbus, all the conflict is causing this affair to crumble. Tell your SIL to just kick back and be as polite as possible when your D calls. Affairland is crumbling fast!

OK, I partly agree with schoolbus:
"he's blaming someone else for his "having" to do something in his life - "having" to break up with your D."

I do think it's likely the OM's parents are telling him to break up with your daughter BUT I also think he's been trying to dump your daughter for a LOT of reasons: his parents' aren't supporting the adultery anymore, exposure has ruined the fun of sneaking around, your daughter needs emotional and financial support from him now which he never intended to give her.

My WXH's last OW tried to pretend that she was dumping my WH because she was supposedly afraid of me. She claimed that the fact I had contacted her by phone scared so much that they had to break up. As far as I know my WXH still believes that lie years later and still hates me for scaring her away in spite of the OW now telling everyone she only dated my WH because she felt sorry for him. It sounds as if this OM is using the same tactic - pretending your SIL is threatening him as an excuse to break up with your daughter. I guess it is an excuse for breaking up that the WS is more likely to believe since it lets them continue to pretend the OP was their soulmate but that their mean old BS scared them away. And it gives the WS an excuse to vent their hurt and anger at the BS during withdrawal. Since your daughter's adultery has been so brief and a first-time instead of serial adultery, she most likely will eventually stop blaming your SIL for scaring off the OM.

Advise your SIL to change the locks on his home before he leaves on his business trip and/or to have a trusted friend or relative housesit for him while he is away.

Sound advice ... your SIL won't stand for much more insults / humiliation if he hasn't crossed that line already.

YMD,

You've done a GREAT job, but frankly from my perspective as a BH, (and also a "good ole country boy") your SIL simply WON'T stand for having his "face rubbed in it" much longer. For this entire thread, I have felt a kinship with your SIL, as it seems from the tidbits of info that you and he have provided that he is just a younger version of myself.

Men like your SIL have a lot of PRIDE and your D's actions have torn at that pride and ripped it to its core. I hope not, but you may actually win the battle against the OM only to lose the war when your SIL simply won't be able to forget all of the humiliation she has rained down on him and turn to plan D for his own self-protection.

I know it has to be hard to fight this battle on two fronts, but your SIL probably needs some serious "atta-boys" to help prop up his pride and self-esteem. He seems like a great guy that doesn't deserve any of the BS he's been forced to deal with through no fault of his own.

If and when your D peaks out from the fog and starts to listen to you, she needs to understand just how much she's damaged her husband and she will need to work EXTRA hard and show true remorse early and often to help heal the wounds SHE inflicted.

IMHO, at this point, with the A crumbling but still breathing, your SIL needs you more now than your D. She is going to crash and burn, and there's nothing you can do to prevent that, but for her sake and your SIL, she will need a soft place to land once this is over. If your SIL has already said "F it" because of her A behavior, then your D's REAL problems will only be just beginning.

It's is time for your SIL to go to plan B. This will temporarily throw your WW in OM's arms, but we all know that relationship is crumbling, so going to plan B will only make it crumble faster. You can be his intermediary and collect money from her for bills. Other than that you can just plan B her as well.

Ok the marriage is pretty much over and my D needs prayers and so do I. I got an emercency call from my SIL this morning that my D had abortion yesterday and needed my help.

I have been with her all day and she is a basket case, which I am really trying to be there for her but I need some time to deal with this to.

She is just talking crazy amd begging her H to stay with her, and of course he can't do that. Which I totally understand since this boy has been through so mcuh and I think this was the final blow.

She thought that if she did this the OM would stay with her, trust me she wouldn't normally do this. I am wits end trying to undersatnd this type addiction and how she could let this happen. Even after this she says she still loves the OM and just wants to hate him. The kicker is this a-- made her pay for it.

I am trying to be strong for her, but I need soem time to uncerstand this myself. I keep asking how this all happened I mean come on this guy was't even man enought to stand by her side through this whole thing.

I gotta go now and take a hot bath a glass of wine and cry.

I will keep you posted, thanks I think of you all as friends and you have been so helful.

oh my gosh. you daughter needs some serious help. i would almost want to say that she needs to actually get some inpatient psychiatric treatment in a private facility. she is going to not only need help mentally for the abortion (which she will grieve doing for a very long time) but also to try and sort out why in the world she has been acting so wrecklessly and destroying the best thing she had: a marriage with your SIL.

as far as your SIL, i understand having had enough. it took me almost 4 years but the last straw was when the latest ow's husband, one of our town cops, came and told me not only of the affair my husband was having with his wife, but of all the women he had been with in the last year or two. i just suddenly snapped and said "i can't do this anymore". after your wife aborting another man's child i don't think anyone would blame your SIL for bolting. she has about sucked him dry.

but.... maybe if she gets help, deep intense help, and he has some time alone to heal, maybe one day they could start again.

get your daughter some help.....

mlhb

I am so sick about this, YMD, and so sorry for you and your SIL, and most especially your unborn grandchild. Your D is making such tragically evil choices that will haunt her for life. I will say a prayer for you all. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

YMD, I have been trying to follow your situation and praying for all of you. This is a sad turn of events. I think I've missed a piece of the story somewhere. I didn't realize your D was pregnant. Do you know if the baby belonged to her H or the OM?

I am sorry for you, your H and your SIL. Your daughter is showing herself to be an evil woman capable of anything.

Your SIL would do well to put a lot of distance between him and his "wife." You might do well to distance yourself from her too.

I hope you find your peace with what she has done to your whole family.

I hear what you are all saying and I am working on getting her all the help I can. I know my D and this was not her, but in a way I guess it was cause she chose the action she took.

I am also blaming myself because I went dark and I think that was the time she needed me the most. I don't know if she would have reached out or not, she tried to reach out to her H but backed away and did what she did. The baby would have been the OM's, but her H told her that if you would have just told me I would have been there through out the whole thing.

This OM is a jerk and just took her to the clinic, then after dropped her off at her car and then called her on his cell phone and broke it off with her.

We will get her all the help she needs, and also we will help SIL get past ths also.

Thanks for your support.

You are NOT to blame for your D's actions. She chose to have an A, she had unprotected s*x with another man, and we all know there are consequences of that alone.

She is an adult.

Yes, You are doing all you can do. Do not second guess yourself. Some WS have to hit rock bottom before they can lift themselves back up. It has to hurt THEM.

She's going to hurt, but it was her choice. Never prevent a person from feeling the consequences of their own actions. They will never learn from their mistakes.

All of you are going to need alot of support. My prayers to you.

Praying for you and your family.

Wow...........just wow. Im speechless.

Good Bless you for hanging in there and trying to help.

Is your daughter going to counseling? Does your community have any post-abortion counseling services? BTW, it is very typical for the biological father of an aborted baby to dump the woman as soon as she goes through with the abortion, despicable considering that sometimes the woman aborted in a vain attempt to keep the relationship with the man and then in a high percentage of cases the relationship ends anyway.

I'm so sorry that your innocent grandchild's life was taken.
Had she even told you or her husband that she was pregnant?
You are not to blame, she didn't want you to help her to end the adultery or to save the baby. Wayward's only care about extending the adultery. SHE decided that the her realtionship with OM meant more to her than her ealtionship with her own mother, her husband, and even her baby's life. You see how great a cost she was willing to pay to try to keep OM.

Maybe now she will finally see she is hitting rock bottom and who the people are who really love her. She is addicted to this OM. She needs to ask herself if he's even worth it. She needs to acknowledge that he's not.

She is but I don't think the counselor she is seeing is good for her. After all of this came out she informed me that her counselor told her to act like her marriage was over and pursue her relantionship with the OM. Her H knows all because she told him. D is still very foggy it hasn't even been a week since the OM dumped her.

She has told all family memebers but they are supportive of her decision saying she should not have the OM's baby, I seen to be the only one devasted that my D could do something like this. SIL is of course devasted also since he thinks the child might have been his.

Some days she is very remorseful other days I hear just get over it I made a mistake. D is very much crying all the time over the OM and I am just about to throw in the towel. I have told her she needs a new couselor since this one is leading her down the wrong path, but she won't do that either.

I really don't understand all of this and how someone can have that kind of effect to cause these reactions and deceions. I am sad that this has forever changed the course of D's life and my relantionship with her.

She is telling my SIL that they need to get a D so that she can start with a clean slate and he is now in couseling and doesn't want to do anything until he feels comfortable with any decision he makes. SIL certainly doesn't know if he wants to stay with D, but wants to make sure, but of course D is still ****** bent on destroying everything in her life right now.

I am giving lots of tough love, but then D turns away from me and calls her grandmother who babies her and that isn't helping D face reality or the decisions she has made to keep this OM in her life. I mean he even made her pay for the it since he says he had not money.

I just wish the clock could be turned back, I am so lost and don't know if I can continue to have a relantionship with my D at this point, it sickens me to hear D say how much she misses the OM and how she can't stay married and needs a clean slate. I mean just sweep it all under a rug like it never happened.

Thanks

I saw a sign in front of a church on the way to work last week. It helped me when considering just how I would be able to deal with my WW, especially since she might be pregnant with OM's child.

It's a lot for SIL to deal with.. but you know what, God can forgive us anything.. anything if we are truely repentant. I don't think SIL will be able to forgive her unless she finally is allowed to fully hit bottom and come back to this on her own.. and she might not.

But here's what the sign said: God has a big eraser.

While you can't take back what is in the past.. you can move past the past if you trust God to do the forgiving for the truely repentant.

Sounds like SIL and D really need God in their lives right now.

Amen

Fist of all, I wouldn't let your DD go to that counselor anymore. Just like there are ways to get her to end her affair, there are ways to get her to a different counselor. I would also do something to expose this counselor. A lot of times they have websites where people can post their comments on certain counselors. Go there and give her horrible reviews.

I am trying to find out the counselors name, so far haven't been successful. My SIL is also trying to find out the name.

I am trying to convince her that she needs to find a christian counselor and she also needs to find her christiam religion again and not just go through the motions.

I am as a mother trying my hardest to help her, but she isn't willing to listen at this time. She is saying that when she is with her H that she feels really bad and just can't be married right now. I have told her that her H will do what is right for him when it is time, that she is in no position to demand anything. She told me that she thinks if she can D now that the OM might be willing to take her back.

I'd say there is an excellent chance that (a) she isn't even seeing a couselor or (b) she's LYING about what the counselor told her. As you say, she's still very foggy and is likely still very much in denial about how bad she's screwed up.

You must still have some type of leverage over her, whatever it is, I think I'd use it to insist that you accompany her to her next counselling session and/or find out the counselors name and go see him/her yourself so he knows the REAL story, because if she is seeing a counselor, you can bet she's not telling him the same version as what you've experienced.

I am trying my best, but she is blocking all attempts from me and SIL. She is now mostly talking to her Grandmother and when I do have contact with her, all she does is spew anger for me calling the OM's father and calling the OM. She says that is why her broke off with her.

SIL is also receiving a lot of hate from her also. He is not taking her calls and last night she ended up at martial home yelling please sign the D papers and then this morning begging him by phone not to.

He is just trying to fix himself at this time, and not trying to worry about her. He will not take any action until his head is clear on what he wants to do. He still loves her but also doesn't want to look at her.

I am still trying to save my D if she will only let me.

Your SIL shouldn't sign anything. Period. No one should ever make irrevocable decisions in the highly emotional state he's in.

Your daughter thinks if she gets immediately divorced the OM will take her back. He won't. Your daughter will realize that soon enough.

So many things have happened to your family in such a short time. Everything needs to sloooooow down a little.

So your daughter completed a marathon while pregnant? How far along was she?

Good luck to you. My only advice is, again, do what you can to slow things down. Your daughter very much out of control right now. Do your best to make sure she's safe, but there is nothing you or anyone else can do to take away the pain she's feeling.

She was 8 weeks pregnant. I am trying to tell this whole family to slow down myself included. I haven't had time to sort out all of feelings so I know that they haven't either.

I am talking until I am blue in the face to her about letting her emotions adjust to all that happens. I think she is just looking for a quick fix and like I told her there isn't any.

Keep us in your prayers.

Seemed like your "Plan B" had some affect on her before...perhaps you should return to it with the instructions to her that you'll resume contact with her "when she grows up"?

My kids did kind of a 'reverse plan B' on their mom when she was still wayward thinking but after OM had told her not to come. She was sitting around in withdrawl, telling them that she hadn't decided to stay, or whatever...

The kids IGNORED her when she was acting like that. When she'd act human around them, they'd interact with her...but the minute the pity party started, they just acted like she wasn't in the room. This was all on THEIR choice...I had no part of that idea. Worked tho...

Well heres the update. D calld her H Friday to meet and talk, they went out to dinner just talking of anything but what has been happening. D asked H if she could just stay the night and he said yes. D takes a bath and while in the tub H checks her phone and of course she has been contact with the OM, but the OM has texted her that it is still over and he could never trust her again.

H lets D know in th morning and of course it leads to a fight, she is pleading she is sorry but she couldn't help herself and promises to not contact him again, but H knows it is because the OM doesn't want contact. She ends up locked in the bathroom so H rakes the leaves and then she leaves and then come back to martial home and tells H that she has signed a one year lease on an apartment with a friend and she needs some money. Can they sell some items in the house, and H says yes lets sell the wedding rings and she starts crying saying she loves her rings which H had takes them back and now are in a safety deposit box
H says no money from me.

WE all go to church today and she is happy go lucky almost like her old self. I am being reserved and she wants to know what is wrong with me. She states her and H are fine and they will be dating. H doesn't think this is the plan and never told her that. What is she up to now. Is this still fog or what.

H is going about life and is not ready to make any decision yets, but the texting OM did not do much to help the situation and the fact she signed a 1 year lease and has no money isn't helping either.

YMD, this affair is crumbling fast. Your SIL should not date her unless the purpose is to commit to the marriage before reconciliation. To ask him to COMPETE in a dating situation with other men is cruel and inappropriate. He shouldn't make himself available in such a way.

All he needs to do right now is step back and let his enemies [the affair] destroy themselves. They are in self destruct mode now and it will crumble fast.

"Closure contact" is very typical.

No contact rarely happens overnight.

That's why ML says SIL should step back and stay out of the way. It's crumbling and his discovery of contact merely hurts him more.

If her cell phone is on his plan...he should cancel it and good for him not offering her money. I predict you will be asked next and I presume you won't as well.

Mr. Wondering

Just recieve a phone call from D and she tells me she is going back to the OM and stay out of her life and not call her, the OM or SIL. She is a grown women and she can do what she wants and she wants the OM to put closure on things. What a bunch of crap, he took her to get an abortion.

She said she is done with me and will have my phone numbers blocked from her phone and she will not talk to me ever again.

I can't do this anymore, I am so sick I can't stand it. The tears are flowing she doesn't care who she hurts or how bad.
She said she tried to love her H yesterday and at church today and it didn't work.

Thanks for listening.

She knows what impact you had on OM and OMF when you called them. She doesn't want you to interfere again.


I'm so sorry.

I think you and SIL ought to go to Plan B now.



You're right, she doesn't care NOW.

But, she will once she regains her mind and heart again.

(((YMD))))

~ Marsh

Her state of mind is temporary. Please don't distress yourself with her fog. Please calm down.

When my DD was trying to be the OW, she told me that what she did was none of my business.

I told her that I was her MOTHER for LIFE, and that meant that it will ALWAYS be my job to try to teach/help her to live a decent life. I told her that I loved her enough to want what is BEST for her, and NOT just whatever she WANTS.

I told her that I loved her enough to do this, even though she might hate me for doing so.

I stood FIRM with her. I did not back down in any way, shape, or form. Not even when my WH (who still hasn't earned his "F" yet) sided with her against me.

Stand FIRM with your DD. Do whatever you have to do to bust up the affair. Tell your DD that you are her MOTHER and that you did NOT raise her to be some jerk's "Ho" that he could just drive to an abortion clinic and dump over the phone after she goes through such a traumatic experience as aborting her child.

Thanks all for the replies. I am strong and continue to be strong and will fight for her even if she isn't fighting for herself.

I just can't understand the attraction or addition and how it cause so much pain in everyone invloved. I do know that I am glad I found this site.

Everyone who comes to this site should post and then take the advice given by you all, we started out thinking ours was different but nope they are all the same. Once we put the light of day into the affair by telling everyone and contacting everyone this whole thing started to crumble fast. No matter how hard they tried to keep it up it just crubled and they couldn't lie anymore.

I even found out places they would go to and then I would go there and just sit and watch them, really just stare at them. I found out what hotels they went to and then I would go there to.

I have such respect for my SIL and sometimes wonder how you can go through this also, he is a very strong and loyal man that my D cant seem to see or understand.

Whenever she is down and in trouble she runs to him. We have both gone to plan B again tonight. SIL did not do a letter this time just a phone call, and she has been calling him non stop. He will not be staying at the martial home tonight but his parents are there so she can't go there.

Please anyone who is going through this please read and take everyone advice on how to break up the affair and trust me it will work. The fog talk is so true, I have some taped conversations for my D when and if she comes out of the fog.

Keep us in you prayers and hope she does salvage her marriage since she has found such a great man.

Based on what you wrote, it seems that your D doesn't deserve your SIL at all and that he should move on and find someone who's as royal as he is. The sad part is that, even you, the mother of your own daughter, think so too deep down.

*******************************************
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BestAdvisor1,

This is a MarriageBUILDERS SUPPORT forum!!!

Please familiarize yourself with the MarriageBuilders concepts & principles!

JustUss

YMD - Please ignore this troll bumadvisor. She/he isn't marriage friendly.

Where did I leave my can of Troll-B-Gone?

YMD: All I can add at this point is that you should think about encouraging your D to visit her psychiatrist. You mentioned earlier that she is on three different medications. Given her behavior and the trauma she's been through in the past week I think it would be a real good idea for her to talk to someone who can evaluate and adjust her medications.

The way she keeps going back and forth between OM and SIL, plus the abortion and getting dumped -- it could be more than she can take. Heck, that's more than just about anybody could take.

BUM advice, as usual.

YMD, in addition to Jethros' advice, I would suggest that your SIL go into a REAL Plan B. That means that he sends her a letter outlining her path back and ending all contact until she complies with his conditions. This will have 2 benefits: a) it will protect him from growing to hate her by keeping him out of this sick love triangle and b) it will force her affair to crumble even faster when she doesn't have him around to catch her falling.

See, your SIL is meeting 3-4 needs and the OM is meeting 1-2 TOP NEEDS. In essence she is getting her needs by 2 men right now and as long as your SIL remains in the picture, this can go on forever. But with him GONE, it will become clear very quickly that the OM will not/cannot meet all her needs. He will NOT be able to rise to the occasion because he is a low down scum who does not care about her. That will become crystal clear very quickly. But your DD can tolerate his lack of caring as long as she can come to your sil at will.

So, he needs to do a serious Plan B and resolve to STAY DARK until she has absolutely ended her affair and is committed to working on the marriage. I think she is close to that point, but as long as she can keep your SIL under her control [because he allows her to come back without conditions whenever she wants] she will have no motivation to end her affair.

He needs to STAY DARK, though, until ALL his conditions are met and to not allow her to contact him in any way while in Plan B. Otherwise, he will lose all his credibility and thusly, all his LEVERAGE.

The first thing is to send her a letter telling her what she must to come back. She must end her affair and recommit to the marriage. He must be convinced that her affair is over and she is ready to come back.

A good letter is right here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post1143897

And before he allows her back this time, he should COME HERE and talk to us. We can help him determine if she is really ready or not in order to prevent a very painful false recovery.

You and your SIL need to plan B your DD immediately. Tell your SIL that now. No financial support either. Giver her a taste of what life without you and your SIL will be like. She'll come crawling back in a few weeks. However, she probably will try and negotiate down some of the plan B letter conditions. Don't go for it. Let her stew by herself a little longer until she's completely broken. I'd give her two months TOPS before she is completely at rock bottom.

I've been following your situation and I agree with the others. As a mother going to Plan B, it's gonna hurt... but it'll be the most loving thing you can do for your daughter right now.

Any chance SIL can slap a "For Sale" sign in the front yard of the house. Even a "For Sale by Owner" sign.

He doesn't have to actually sell it (unless someone wants to pay him/them some outrageous price). I'm just interested in the shock DD may receive.

DD is running back and forth. Cake eating. IF SIL does a bang up Plan B, slaps up a For Sale Sign he just may convince DD that she can't cake eat anymore...she's GOT to make a choice and come home quick if SHE wants to save the marriage.

Crack addicts HATE crack...they just can't not do it. The pain of rock bottom eventually outweighs any and all benefits.

Mr. Wondering

Received a phone call last night from one of my D's friends and she is also concerned for the welfare of my D. She says that D is saying that she has no friends and all she wants is the OM since she has given up so much. The OM has made contact with asking D how is she doing, but then will say it is over since he would never be able to trust her since she slept with her H. Don;t understand why he keeps making contact then.

Friend said she is very weak now and is attempting contact but has not heard back from the OM. Told friend that she can't love her H like she loves the OM and her marriage will never work.

I have not spoken to my SIL since he is taking a few days away from all this just to think. He is staying some where my D doesn't know about and his parents are staying at the house.

Thanks

OUCH!!! I know that hurts. This is one of the many, many reasons IMHO adultery needs to be taken much more seriously by the courts, counselors, churches, etc. The addiction of adultery can motivate previously sane, compassionate people to say and do some downright crazy chit!

"Just recieve a phone call from D and she tells me she is going back to the OM and stay out of her life and not call her, the OM or SIL."

Well, the likelihood of THAT working out for very long is pretty darn small. She's trying to convince herself that the ONLY reason the OM has been trying to break up with her is because YOU were 'bothering' him and his parents. But the truth is that he has lots of other reasons he wants to end the adultery: reasons like never having planned on supporting your daughter in any way, emotionally or financially. And while it may be true that exposure to his parents caused lots of problems in the adultery, she will eventually have to face the truth that the OM never really planned on a committed future with her. He was just taking an opportunity to have some fun with her and now it's become anything but fun.

"She is a grown women and she can do what she wants and she wants the OM to put closure on things. What a bunch of crap, he took her to get an abortion."

IMHO the next time she asks her BH for anything: money, a place to crash for the night, a listening ear, she should be told she 'is a grown woman'. The OM can't possibly 'put closure' on anything? He's basically still a child himself who by now surely realizes this isn't fun for him anymore. He is most certainly going to continue to let her down.

"She said she is done with me and will have my phone numbers blocked from her phone and she will not talk to me ever again."

She is trying to white-knuckle herslef into pretending that all is going to be OK with OM in la-la-land. She KNOWS that you represent reality and sanity to her, which of course is a threat to her pretending that OM 'loves' her despite his despicable behavior. OK, so don't have any contact with her. The next time OM dumps her is will be more difficult for her to pretend that you caused OM to reject her. Maybe it will help her to see that OM is not planning on committment no matter what, that he was simply using your calling, exposing, objecting as a convenient excuse to blame you for his wanting to end the adultery.

"I can't do this anymore, I am so sick I can't stand it. The tears are flowing she doesn't care who she hurts or how bad."

Addictions are evil. But unlike other types of addiction, most adulteries do end even if the addict doesn't get special addiction-battling therapy. Because unlike other addictions to things like alcohol and drugs, the OP can and usually does choose to end it when the fun stops. It is obvious the fun has stopped in this adultery. Your daughter is in denial and wants desparately to return to the pre-exposure part of the adultery. She is blaming you and her husband for spoiling the adultery fun. But she will catch on that the OM is just not that interested in her anymore because he never really cared for her or loved her - he was just having some fun while it lasted.

"She said she tried to love her H yesterday and at church today and it didn't work."

She might really think she put in some major effort to do her part to save her marriage... or she may have been just going through the motions just so she could assure herself and others that she really tried, but her husband will never forgive and forget, that no matter how much she does he will never say it's good enough... That's a very common justification tactic.

All she is doing is dragging out the inevitable, giving this loser OM even more opportunity to do even greater harm, and alienating herself further from those who really do love her and care about her. This also is very typical adultery behavior. It's hard to watch but she apparently insists on making ALL the blunders before hitting rock bottom... sigh

What do her friends and other relatives say about all this?

"Received a phone call last night from one of my D's friends and she is also concerned for the welfare of my D. She says that D is saying that she has no friends and all she wants is the OM since she has given up so much."

OK this answers the question I just posted regarding how her friends are reacting to all this. It sounds as if she is not getting the 'support' for the adultery that she wants from her friends either. That's a good thing. Even folks who normally wouldn't object much to adultery might object if they saw that the WS is acting like an addict, want the adulteyr and OP TOO MUCH.

"The OM has made contact with asking D how is she doing, but then will say it is over since he would never be able to trust her since she slept with her H. Don;t understand why he keeps making contact then."

Maybe he really does feel some sense of guilt over what he's done? Maybe he is just toying with her and gets a real ego boost from knowing a woman is so 'in love' with him that she would humiliate herself so? Maybe he is undecided - sometimes wants to see her but at other times knows that it won't work out? Maybe he wants to keep stringing her along just in case he changes his mind? Maybe he wants to end it BUT wants to pretend he's a nice guy so he calls to show 'concern' for how she's doing? Maybe he's hoping she will come up with enough money and a place to live so the two of them can get back together with her being desparate enough for his 'love' that she will finance it all? Who knows. It has nothing to do with his claim that he can't trust her because she slept with her husband though. He knew all along that she was a married woman PLUS he knew all along that she was untrustworthy because she slept with OM behind her husband's back; he's just using that as an excuse for dumping her.

"Friend said she is very weak now and is attempting contact but has not heard back from the OM."

Good, this might scare off the OM even faster. If she keeps it up he (or his mommy & daddy) might even get a restraining order to stop her from contacting them.

"Told friend that she can't love her H like she loves the OM and her marriage will never work."

She is in no position to make such a judgement until the adultery has been over for some time.

"I have not spoken to my SIL since he is taking a few days away from all this just to think. He is staying some where my D doesn't know about and his parents are staying at the house."

This is a very good idea IMHO, especially with his parents staying at his home so she can't go crash there.

Sometimes the WS behaves like a rebellious child and drags it out even longer with a 'you're not the boss of me' attitude because the people who love them try to warn them the adultery is wrong and doomed to fail. Hopefully at some point their desire to save face, or be 'right', will mean less to them than the love and respect of their BS and real friends/family.

Daughter is in a very bad state. Hopefully she won't hurt herself.

Well, D saw her couselor this morning and called H's parents at the martial home to find out where H is. Parents didn't tell her but she told them that she was with her couselor and couselor told her that in order to move on with all the things she wants to do with her life that she needs to get a D and the sooner the better.

I do not like this counselor. SIL called and asked what he should do, D is on her way to attorney and will have H served with papers.

Told SIL parents that she does not love her H like he loves her, and he deserves better. She is moving into an apartment with SIL sons mother from a previous relansionship. Jake is only 5 and has know my D since he was 2 months old. She has always had a good relansionship with Jakes mom and now they will be living together.

SIL needs to know should he just ignore this talk of D and give more time, or should he just go along and get a D. He is not sure what he wants at this time, but he will have to protect Jake and get an order to keep D away from his son.

D thinks that SIL will be ok with having her be around Jake everyday and that Jake will be fine.

Boy oh Boy.

And the answer to this is....PLAN B!

I would also call up her counselor and tell him/her the TRUTH, and tell her to stop advising your DD to ruin her life.

Agree! The counselor is operating on what your D has told her. She may have painted her M and H in a terrible light.

The counselor may not speak with you. However, you could send her the same information you have shared here, in a letter. Remember, her conversations with the counselor come from her deep fog and wayward thinking. GF

Why would SIL's baby momma (for lack of a better term) take in your D???

Was she married to SIL when she got pregnant?

Did your D steal SIL from Jake's mom and now she can get even by providing her shelter?

Is Jake's mom have primary custody of Jake and now D will have more access to SIL's son than even SIL does???

If D files...SIL need do nothing but delay, delay, delay. IF the affair is over...she very likely will come around hopefully SIL will still be receptive to such when it happens.

Mr. Wondering

SIL babys mamma was a high school prom date accident. SIL and D and Jake's mom have always gotten along. D did not steal SIL that was long over. SIL has joint custody and they have always shared cost and stuff.

I do not know who the couselor is that my D is going to. She will not tell anyone since we have had an issue with her from the beginning.

One mintue she wants a D the next she does not. I know that SIL will have put in the divorce papers that D not be around Jake and then she will have to move out. Telling D that is one thing, she doesn't think her H will do that.

I spoke to her and she said this has nothing to do with OM he has been out of the picture a whole week and a half with contact between. She says that she can't love her H like he loves her. I said were you not happy being with your H this weekend and she said no she was still depressed. I told her that she needs to find a new counselor that with all she has been through in this week and half that she shouldn't be making any life changing decisions. She of course said she is old enough to make her own decisions and since I want her to stay M she won't listen to me.

I will tell SIL to stall which he won't sign disolution papers anyway because now Jake is involved. Jake's mom thought since D was with her H all the time that they were trying to fix things.

SIL told daughter before she even signed the papers for an apartment he would see to it that she has on contact with his son, since divorce is traumatic for any child and he will not understand this. D says Jake will be find.

Just 2 days again D says she wanted to work on the marriage.

She can't make a rational decision about wanted to stay married or trying until after several months of NC. If anything, I would continue to push NC and stall on the D. Also, call up the counselor and give him/her a piece of your mind. Give that counselor a bad review or and bad publicity you can if they ignore you or continue to advise your DD down this destructive path.

I still think there's an excellent chance that D has not even talked to a C ... or at least is not relating accurately what the C said. Sounds too much like "fog-babble" rationalization/justification to be real.

I agree with all of this. She just called me crying her eyes out because she spoke to her H. She went to the martial home and his parents had him come over. He told her that since she wanted a D that they could not talk after today and he would do what it takes to keep his son safe.
She wanted to know if they could at least be friends, she said I don't want to loose my best friend, he told her no that he couldn't stay friends that he had to move on with his life also.

I asked her if this was want to wanted and was she 100% sure and she said no. She also said he had only been changing the last 3 weeks and didn't think he could keep it up and she does not want to settle. I told her settle, she cheated with a looser and now she is settling for her H. I told her that her H would be fine and find somone who would be happy to settle for her H and then she cried and said did that to hurt her.

I spoke to SIL and he is not in a good place right now, he seems to think that maybe to much damage has been done, but he did say that he has to remember that mentally she is not stable, but he does have to protect his son and himself finacially.

I wish I could call this counselor but did not know who it is or where she is going. She said she has a list of things she wants to do and she can't do them married to H. I asked her what they were and she wouldn't tell me.

I told her that I am sure she is making a huge mistake and when it comes all crashing down on her that she will have no one to turn to because she is on a destruction path. She said that a year from now she knows she will deciede she had made a mistake.

Will this ever end. I give credit to all who have been through this because it is no walk in the park. I survived cancer with many chemo treatments and this is worse.

This is a spiritual issue. She is saying that she knows what she needs to do, the right thing to do not only for herself but her family she just doesn't want to do it because it has limitation, guidelines, restrictions. She wants to go out and act in whatever immoral or other irresponsible way she wants without consequence even though she knows there will be consequences. She is rebelling against God, against reality, against everyone and everything that would be considered normal or just. The only thing that is holding her back is she still has a little fear that the consequences may outweigh the temporary and short term elation, joy, happiness she may get from doing "what she wants to do".

I would suggest that the BH file for D, sole custody of the son, child support, use of the marital home, and go plan B and then let her see the consequences in advance of the D happening. It may be enough to shake her out of the fog she is in. I would suggest that you try and get her into a church, and IC (she may need medication for imbalance, mental disorder, etc).

I thought that was where this was going. Sometimes we endure too much to forgive and I think your SIL is there NOW. My guess is your SIL is a proud guy and your D just rubbed his face in it way too much and he just can't take it anymore ... he simply has to salvage his self respect.

Your daughter is basically killing all the love your SIL has for her. Your DD's affair will eventually end (sooner rather than later), she will get through withdrawal, and she will want to reconcile with your SIL, but at this rate he won't want anything to do with her. That it is why it is ESSENTIAL for him to go to plan B before your DD kills any chance at reconciliation. Plan B is as much about protecting the BS's feelings for the WS, as much as it is about killing the affair by starving the WS of ENs the BS was meeting. Please talk to your SIL, get him to this board, or get him talking to someone from this board, and get him into plan B with an intermediary before it is too late for your DD's marriage.

Thank you all for the replies. I will ontact SIL and see if he can get to a computer since he doesn't have one. He knows the name of this thread so he can check it out.

He is writing the plan B letter as we speak and will be going to Plan B. He is a very proud man and this is just to much for him, but he doesn't make decisions lighty either. My D seems to be the only one to do this. I told SIL about the fog and since she is still in contact that withdrawal can't happen.

My D has called me and I have spoken to her about her decision and she is now saying maybe it isn't the best one as of yet. She said the when she went up to the bedroom to get more of her clothes she saw a list that H had made and it was about her needs and making her happy and how he felt that if they could get through this how much happier and stronger their marriage would be. I let her know that this could not happen without her being a part of the repairing 100%.

She said that when she gets the papers she will not sign them and think this through. I think this a good sign. She is starting to come back to her oldself. I know you don't know her but this is totally out of charcter for her.

WE are trying to get her back to church and mean it, not just go through the motions.

SIL is hoping that being in Plan B will help him also, he is reading all the books you have suggested and also will be going to a christiam couselor since he believes that this is the only way to be true to his religion.

Hopefully this will end with them on the road to recovery but if not hopefully we can all heal.

Hi guys, I am the SIL and don't post often since computers aren't my thing. MIL has pretty much filled you in on what has been happening. I am not sure where I stand in this whole mess, on the one hand I want my marriage to survive but it isn't looking like W wants it to.

She will be moving to her new place on Monday, we had a 2 hour discussion last night and she showed me a list she had made for her couselor and most of it was stuff like make myself a better person, work on self confidence, get over feelings for OM. I was #8 on the list and all that was figue out if I should stay with my H. I told her I didn't see any reference to GOD in her list and church and doing the right thing.

I told her that all the things on her list could happen and work on the marriage at the same time. I showed her my list and it had 50 things on it the most important was going back to GOD. I told her how good she would feel if she worked on the marriage and we were happy.

We seem to get closer and then she pulls away, I asked her if she had any happy memories and she said no. We spent a wonderful Sunday together, just hung out raking leaves and jumping in them, cuddled watching TV and cuddled in bed all night. Then she see her couselor and she wants a D.

She now wants to just date and take it slowly coming back to the marriage, I don't know how much love she has in her love bank since she has no happy memories.

I am thinking to hold off on Plan B and see how the next month goes, and then go to Plan B if needed.

Any Advice.

SIL, I think you will grow to hate her if you wait much longer. I also think that your presence has an enabling influence on her and removes her motivation to make a choice. The OM meets 1-2 top needs, you meet 3-4. As long as she can keep you under her control, she can have her needs met in both places. If you went into Plan B and went DARK, the OM would never be able to fill the loss of your absence. That will kill the affair. Your W needs you badly and as long as she can keep you around she can continue her affair.

Her affair will crumble, it is just a matter of time. But if you continue to stay in contact with her, you will HATE HER GUTS by the time that happens and your marriage really will be over.

This has been so bad, SIL, that I don't think you should wait to go into Plan B. Your W is a cakeeater and allowing her that status is not in the best interest of your marriage. Staying in touch with her like this reduces the possibility of a future reconciliation.

I also think that you have a strategic advantage by going into Plan B just before the holidays. The absence of her family at holiday time will be a very rude awakening; perhaps the rude awakening she needs. Thanksgiving is 2 short weeks away. Can you imagine how creepy it would be to have to spend that holiday with the OM and his creepy family? People who don't care about her?

She is wavering..go to Plan B now. If you wait much longer your love bank will be empty.

She is obviously a cake-eating, fence-sitting, addict. She will continue to contact and try and start things up with the OM unless you make her hit rock bottom. Go to plan B. Your plan B conditions should include:

1) NC w/ OM for life.
2) MC and IC with a pro-marriage counselor of your choice.
3) Move back into the marital home.
4) Complete honesty, openness, and accounting for time.

Honestly, I would make her call Steve Harley before ending plan B to get her on the right track before she came back. Trust me, she is most likely going to come back to you. The only question is whether or not you still want her when she does. Plan B will only expedite the process and save you a lot of heartache in the meantime.

Thanks all I will be going to Plan B on Monday. That is the day my W will be moving out her stuff and I want to be there to make sure she doesn't take anything but her clothes.

We had a coversation last night and she seems to be coming around. She still contacted the OM for some closure, she wants him to tell her he doesn't love her anymore. OM is not responding.

She is started to take responsiblity but not quite all yet. I think Plan B will be benefical for me as well since I haven't sorted out all of my feelings yet. Sometimes I pull closer to my W and then others I pull away. She seems to pull closer and then away also.

I have couselors all ready to go if and when we start the recovery process, I will be going anyway. The couselor is a strong christian and believes in marriage unlike my W's counselor.

Thanks will keep you updated.

I agree with everyone who advised that now is a good time to go to Plan B. She has basically admitted she thinks she can put off making a decision for another year! She wants to spend that year acting out in all sorts of other ways inappropriate for a married woman (why she 'needs' the divorce NOW), and then she 'predicts' she will finally admit that she is making a mistake. IMHO she wants to: get a divorce ASAP, live as a single woman dating lots of guys for a year, then come back home to good old X-hubby...

It sounds as if the OM meeting her needs anymore might not even be an issue. It's more her memory of what the adultery was like pre-exposure that she is craving. She's starting to realize that returning to that stage with this particular OM is probably not going to happen. He's been lying to her about WHY he's ending the adultery because he doesn't want to admit to her that he was just using her for some fun... So for a while she will try to make all kinds of radical changes in a VAIN attempt to get/keep the OM in her life - based on the excuses OM claimed were the reason for dumping her. But she will eventually catch on that OM never intended to be there for her forever. However, she has figured out that she can get a similar high from a new OM, and IMHO that is a big part of her motivation to stay apart from BH for a year to try some things she can't do while married...

IF she is going to a counselor, she is lying to the counselor, or she is lying about what the counselor is telling her, or the counselor is an idiot. I would tell her that I don't believe she really is going to a counselor - see if that prompts her to provide the name of the counselor as 'proof'... IF she is going to a counselor AND she is telling the counselor the truth, then the counselor would at least be telling her not to make any major decisions in her current state of mind, especially since she is so undecided.

Moving in with the mother of your son-in-law's child is just plain desparate IMHO. She obviously has no plans to support herself completely anytime soon. She probably initially assumed she could stay living @ home while dating OM on the side, then when that didn't work out she thought she would be living with OM's parents, exposure helped ruin that plan, so now she's found somebody else to live with. BTW, would this woman condone your daughter bringing dates around her home and son? Oh yea, I forgot the OM's pretense that he was going to move to Florida and take her with him - LOL. I'm sure that sounded like a great, adventurous pick-up line but something he is not grown-up enough to pull off (because it would involve him moving away from his mommy & daddy and supporting himself).

Sorry you and your SIL are being put through this malarkey. It does appear that the OM is not very interested in your daughter anymore so that at least is good news. She most definitely is not receptive to anyone trying to tell her or teach her anything. She seems determined to keep up her rebellion, assuming those who really love her will take her back in a year.

Good, you've got a plan. Now you need to stick to it. It's going to be difficult, and she's going to try and reach out to break plan B, but do not let her back until she meets all your plan B conditions.

My SIL will be going to Plan B come Monday since that is the day my daughter will be moving. I had dinner with my D last night and she states it is over with the OM since she did meet him thursday night for closure and he told her that he could not be with her since she is married and she cheated on him with her H so he could never trust her. D said it lasted all of 15 minutes.

She talked about her M and I listened. She basically said that she thinks if the get a D and then start dating they can start over. She also said she doesn't love her H like she should and she needs to move on and quit going back to what is comfortable. She did say that H had made a lot of changes but she doesn;t think he can keep it up.

While at dinner OM set her a text message asking is she OK and of course she answered. I told her that the only way she can heal is NC, but of course that went over like a lead ballon. Then she goes to H's and asked him to go out dancing with her, H goes and of course he checks the cell phone and they fight, but end up spending the night together.

He thinks with all the things she is saying that the M is over, but he is willing to try Plan B come Monday and he is giving it until after Christmas.

Any thoughts.

he needs plan b, she is still in contact. i wouldn't do plan b for her, he needs to do it for HIM. a person can only take so much hurt ya know? he needs to protect himself.

mlhb

Well, D moved out last night and it did not go well. H stayed at the martial home to make sure she only took her stuff. He then gave her the plan b letter and locked all the doors and went to the bar. He is there for about an hour and D shows up, SIl then gets up and leaves without saying anything. D starts yelling it isn't over, I love you. SIl just keeps walking gets in his truck and leaves.

She calls and calls about 15 calls, he goes home and she follows him, he just goes in the house showers and goes to bed, she stays outside crying and calling for him.

She finally leaves, and then this morning he gets up and of course she is asleep in her car. He gets ready and leaves for work, without saying a word, she ask for a hug and kiss and says I love you. He doesn't say a word just goes to work.

i applaud his strength. i think he is doing a great job. good for him. maybe, just maybe now she will start to turn around. make sure he doesn't let her back in until she follows the terms of that letter...

mlhb

Wow... OK I had assumed that your daughter's dramatic emotions were mostly about the addiction to the adultery. But she apparently feels just as needy about keeping her husband in her life too. She sounds as if she is either hitting the bottom finally. Unfortunately some folks persist in wallowing around in the mud a LONG time before admitting they've bottomed out...

It sounds as if she belives these emotional displays (sort of like tantrums but with her playing the victim of people being mean to her by not allowing her cake-eat) will convince her husband (and you?) to just drop the Plan B conditions and allow her to continue contact with the OM.
It doesn't sound like your SIl will cave to that sort of emotional blackmail though.

Good for him. And in the long run - good for her too.

Does she have any history of using similar tactics in the past? What do other relatives and friends think of her emotional outbursts? Has she started hinting or threatening suicide if she doesn't get her way?

I can't remember, does she work? If so, how is all this affecting her ability to perform her job?

Also, is she still living with the mother of SIL's little boy?

Yes, she just moved in last night which is what started this. SIL gave her a Plan B letter when she moved last night.

She is a college graduate with at good job in the medical research field.

She has seen her couselor this morning and has texted her H that she is ready to put this marriage back together and will write the NC letter and also agrees to a Chritiam Marriage Couselor of her H's choice. However, she signed a years lease and doesn't want to move home just yet, she would like to go to a few couseling sessions first. H is not sure what to do at this point. He also needs to examine his feelings.

No...she shouldn't be living on her own. There's no accountability that way.

Perhaps if she had moved in with YOU there may be some leeway to these conditions but she needs to be somewhere where her stated words can be verified to insure her actions match her words.

In essence...she needs help breaking her addiction. Doing it on her own...cold turkey is NOT going to cut it.

She can always go bankrupt and get out of the lease. She may even still be in the recission period...meaning many states allow you several days to reconsider such contracts and back out. She must try now...it would be aweful to have her come back to SIL along with some huge debt that HE will be expected to help pay (whether directly or indirectly).

All conditions must be met. She's breaking. Negotiations merely make recovery harder. Blurr the outlined requirements at your own peril.

Mr. Wondering

WARNING******NON-MB SPECIFIC ADVICE BELOW******WARNING


It seems to me your SIL needs to give her an ultimatum. I know MB doesn't agree with them...but I know it worked in my case.

He needs to flat out tell her that if she's moved out, if she's seeing OM in ANY FASHION...she's not his wife, and she's no longer part of his life. PERIOD. No two ways about it, he will NOT accept less than her as his WIFE in his life.

PERIOD.

Again, MB doesn't support this advice...this is based off what worked in my situation. But I'd also like to point out, he's got to MEAN it. He can't waffle on that either. If he doesn't feel that way, then it won't work.

Just sharing my thoughts.

AGAIN...this was NOT MB based advice, so take it or leave it at your discretion.

I would have your SIL call up Steve Harley, explain his situation to him along with his plan B conditions, and then give your DD Steve Harley's number to begin the recovery process if she is truly ready to commit to the marriage again. Steve Harley will be able to talk to your DD sensibly, and he will be able to gauge whether she is actually ready to follow through with NC and recovery, or she needs to linger in plan B longer.

Do you see the power of plan B?

Plan B is still intact. D has contacted the OM as early as last night by text and telling him that she has moved to her new apartment. H checked the messages on her phone when they were talking about couseling and getting back together. She says she doesn't know why she keeps contacting him, but he still wants nothing to do with her.

H asked her about the NC contact letter which he feels will do no good at this point since she is contacting the OM, and can't really tell if the OM is contacting her. H told her that it would never work if she didn't fully commit and stop contcting the OM. H said look it would just be a waste of time, and I can't continue getting hurt.

She says she loves him and wants to work on their marriage and she thought he would be more excited, H told her you still don't get it.

He is back in Plan B.

Good foryour SiL.

You're right; your D DOESN'T get it. She doesn't get that words must be followed by actions. She thought she could tell her H that she would end contact with the OM and send the ND letter...blah, blah, blah, while still chasing the OM.

Your D has the letter. She can read it again to find out what to do. Your SiL probably shouldn't break Plan B again until she can PROVE that she is ALREADY doing the work.

Still in Plan B even though D has tried breaking it. She has been texting her H and yesterday she got a written warning at her job about her performance and missing work.

I am hoping something will wake this child up. The OM fianlly told her to not keep calling, texting or any contact with him, he is done and doesn't want to hear from her again. Don't know how true this is but what she is saying to me.

I asked her if all of this was worth it and told her she needed to commit to her marriage 100% and she said but what if I don't love my H. I said you have been with him all of last week and you said you had a great time and he was becomming the man you wanted. She said yes but I didn't love him.

SIL has scheduled an appt with Steve so we will see what advice he has.

Thanks

Excellent!

~ Marsh

This is where you say, "Of course you don't love him. You were cheating on him. It's up to you to rebuild your love for him. It can be done. All you need to do is call Steve Harley."

Just wanted to bump this back up again and say that I agree with Jim.

Your daughter will not feel in love with her betrayed husband again until she:

stops all contact with the OM

gets through withdrawal

allows her betrayed husband to make deposits into her love bank

AND makes some deposits into her husband's love bank

THEN the feelings will follow.

I also agree she should talk to Steve Harley (and stop going to that anti-marriage cousnelor she's been seeing).

NC has been only a week. The OM told D he was not interested in anything having to do with her. He is done and does not want to speak to her again. Called her a WH--e. Of course D is still mooning for the OM. SIL is still in Plan B.

D insist she does not love H and their marriage would never work. Her and I have been going to bible study and church. She is at least going to check into a christiam marriage couselor. D wants nothing to do with this site.

SIL has a phone conference with I think someone named Jennifer for this week, we will see what advice.

I have tried to tell her that she could love H and she would have to just try to get her marriage back. She said if she did that she would just be using him. I know that she is in withdrawal becuase she cries at a drop of a hat. I just wonder if she is still in contact.

Thanks

Hope everyone had a happy thanksgiving. I spent my with my D and spoke to SIL last night. He had his phone couseling session and he feels really pretty good after. SIL was advised to slowly break plan B when D reaches out to him, since his W has moved out and Plan A was not enough and not enough love deposits he nees to slowly build this up. SIL was advised to speak to D and no realantship talk just general stuff and then see how that goes and maybe a short date like breakfast or just spending some time together on something they both enjoy.

D did write her H a letter letting him know she found a christian marriage counselor and if he was willing to go to let her know and they could start. He was told this was a good idea and could be a way to break plan B and not look to weak, but the main goal is saving the marriage if that is in fact what he wants. I guess he has a whole list of stuff and he needs to get his head around it all, but he is very excited and has another cousleing session for next week.

In speaking to my D, she says things like the OM's arms fit her so much better than her H. She has in fact broken contact as early as this week, but Om called her H and told him, but said he is not contacting and that SIL needed to let his W go because she is turning into a stalker and is crazy. I know about the contact and the OM stated he did not want to see D but would be there if she ever needed to talk. He then sent a text message to her yesterday and stated she was to crazy for him and stop contacting him. She tried to call serveral times and he would not asnwer.

Thanks all.

YMD,

I have several thoughts. One it is good your SIL is counseling with Jennifer. She is good. Second, you need to warn him that counseling with your D will NOT go well for a simple reason. She is still in the affair with OM. OM is contacting her, and OM is contacting her H, and she is contacting OM. Given all of this one can hardly say that NC is in place. Counseling while the affair is going on is a waste of time and money.

Yet, perhaps it will help your SIL deposit in the love bank. I suspect however, it may hasten his willingness to leave her. Unless he realizes that counseling will be of no use until she really is in no contact, he will be so disappointed that he will finally call it quits.

Your D is still acting in a very "entitled" way, and shows NO respect for your SIL. My bet this is going to wear thin real soon especially if it continues in counseling as well.

Please give him a heads up about this.

God Bless,

JL

Thansk for your reply. I did in fact speak to my SIL about this and he understands. D and I spent yesterday together and went shopping for christmas decorations since this is her favorite time of year. She bought stuff for the martial home, she said that her and SIL will be shopping for a christmas tree this week and she wants this stuff for the house. I did not pry into the situation and she said that they will be having christmas at their house just like last year. She did say that it was over with the OM and when she feels like contact she will call me or her H.

I have not spoken to SIL so don't know where he stand in this whole thing, but when we went to the check out to pay she pulled a note out of her purse and it said your are beautiful and I miss you, it was from her H. Then later while at lunch she said if her and her H every have kids she doesn't want any Brat dolls for her little girls.

When we went out to the car she reached into her coat pocket and pulled out another note from her H and it said hope you are having a good day and I miss you. She said that was not important to her and she knows she loves him just not like the OM and maybe she is just trying to hard.

YMD,

I realize that her comments about OM right now are fog talk, but if they continue she really should be honest with him. He doesn't need a W that views him as "second" choice.

It seems he is trying but perhaps you might talk to him about the notes. I suspect right now they irate her more than anything. Just thoughts, but you have a unique position to observe and provide your SIL insights most here never get to have.

No matter how much you may want the marriage to work, you will need to be honest with him if in time she really is not getting on board but simply settling for him. He needs to know that, so that he can make his own decisions. He seems to have done an excellent job of hanging in there so far, and I must say I am impressed, please pass that on to him as well.

God Bless,

JL

H had his 2nd couseling session with Jennifer. So far Jennifer thinks things are progressing as they should. H and D are actually spending quailty time toghter. While they were together Wednesday night the OM called D and she did not take the call and her and H discussed the fact. She did then text the OM the next day. Her couselor has told her that the OM is not meeting her needs that is why she keeps going back to H.

I spoke to D and she is saying she doesn't think she loves her H but is willing to try. Said she prayed to god last night and he told her to be patient that it will come back. She was upset this morning because H was mad since she isn't loving him like she should. Later H called and they discussed what happened and he isn't mad anymore so D is happier. D says that she thinks the only way to save this marriage is through a marriage couselor but doesn't think this marriage can be saved. She said they will be going to marriage couseling however to save this marriage.

She is still re-writing marriage history and says H can only keep up the good behavior for a month. When they are discussing problems she considers this fighting and H considers it communication.

I hope this is still all fog and I keep telling SIL this but he just wants her to love him. She sometimes will say I love you and then back off from this. I do see that when H backs off she is the one who pursues him.

Thanks

I don't know how much of Plan A Jennifer has shared with BH, but during Plan A the BS cannot expect the WS to meet his ENs. It's all about meeting the WS's ENs and showing her through action that the changes he's making are permanent. BH should not be getting mad at WW for not 'loving him like she should.' That isn't going to help the situation.

And yes, the difference in opinion about fighting/communication is normal, IMO. I would talk with my WW in a very calm manner and avoid all the LBs and she would still qualify the discussions we had as fights or arguments.

Tell your DD if she wants to give the M a chance, she needs to cut off all contact w/ OM FOR LIFE! Any contact with OM is a dagger to the heart of her BS. Explain this to her until she gets it.

Well couseling session with SIL and Jennifer are going good. I am now in plan B with my D since she is turning so hateful and spiteful. She claims no contact with OM for a week now and every time we talk she throws out such hateful words to me and disrepectful to. She has been staying at her apartment and not with H, but calls him all the time.

She tells me that H is her best friend and she doesn't love him like a wife should, and she doesn't like to have sex with him and doesn't want him to touch her. We went to church last night and she was hugging him and holding his hand.

They will be starting marriage couseling on Monday, but she says that is where the marriage will end. She says the only thing that will hurt her anymore now is if her H finds someone else. She is wearing her wedding rings again. dont know what that means.

It seems that no matter how innocent something is she can bring up and re write the marriage. H feels like he can't do anything right, but Jennifer has told him not to do a Plan B yet. She is not helping with this marriage at all, anytime her H needs something or help with something at the martial home she is not willing.

I don't know anymore where her head is at and am wondering if she has any clue what is happening to her and her marriage. Her H says he is willing to hang on for a while longer but he also doesn't think she is coming back to the marriage. I have told my D to tell her H that she doesn't love him and that she doesn't want touched or to have sex with him and she says no marriage is hard sometimes and this is just hard right now. Then later she wants him to end the marriage so she will be forced to move on.

I am so stressed because of all the drama and not knowing what I should be doing or not doing that I haven't been sleeping or eating.

Thanks

If your DD has no contact w/ OM and your SIL works a good plan A, your DD's feelings of love for her H will come back. Right now she is in withdrawal, so her emotions are up and down. Maintaining NC w/ OM is the key because if they remain in contact your DD will stay in a state of perpetual withdrawal.

"I am so stressed because of all the drama and not knowing what I should be doing or not doing that I haven't been sleeping or eating."

I know it may seem impossible, but try to pamper yourself and detach right now. I know you must be worried about your daugter... But there's not much you can do right now to influence her anyway. And don't forget that the things she says are just fog-talk - don't take any of it seriously. Her feud is really with herself as it is with any addict. Eventually she will figure out that the longer goes without contact with the OM, the better she will feel. Unfortunately, each time she contacts him she will have to start withdrawal all over again. I remember hearing that the worst part of withdrawal lasts about 3 weeks. But even then if contact is made again, it's back to square one. Some people simply can't be told this and instead have to go through several withdrawals instead of just one. (I remember trying to tell my WXH he could spare himself a lot of suffering if he'd just stick to no contact and get it over with... instead he drug it out...)

I can't remember if you've said whether or not your daughter is taking an anti-depessant. Has she talked to her physician about her depression? I think I remember you saying she was having trouble at work too because of all this? It might help her get through withdrawal if she was prescribed an anti-depressent.

Just thought I would post an update and some words for those just starting this process. SIL and D are in recovery and going to Marriage Couseling with a Christian Couselor. Of course there are hills to climb and valleys to go through but I am seeing more of my D coming back and she is more loving towards her H than ever. Had a wonderful Christmas the first time both families have been together since this happened. I sometimes don't want to talk about how good it is going cause you know jinxing and all that.

I want to thank all of you on this board for the help and understanding through this. For those of you who are going through this please listen to the advice of these fine people they do know what they are talking about. My SIL and I followed the advice, no matter how hard it was to do
and these people were right on target as to what would happen. I know you think your situation is different but in fact it is not, cheating is cheating no matter the characters or the roles each plays. The fog talk is actually true, and I can't tell you how many times SIL and I heard fogtalk from my D and it was so funny because I read all the same words here.

If you read my story you know that we also went to ****** and back, but please reach out to the people on this board they will help pull you out and help you stand up and actually save your marriage. My D and her H are very early in this recovery process but from how my D was in the beginning to how she is now is totally a different person. I know with Gods help and the help from these people we were able to keep our emotions in check and know that there is light at the end of the tunnel even if you can't see it.

Please if you do nothing else, read and read more and remember these folks have walked the walk and know what they are doing and will help you through this minefield without loosing your self respect or your love for yourself which is so important. Even if you think it is hopeless please just read and let these people help you.

Thanks all and I will continue to be reading and now be prepared for the long road to recover and also hoping to once again be proud of the child I raised who is my daughter.

I have that t-shirt too! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

YMD, I posted this on another thread the other day. Your D and SIL are very fortunate you are here!

Quote:

many people are helped here who NEVER post. So when you post here, you ought to think about the hundreds of people you're going to touch. Are you going to help them? Or discourage them?



Had to quote you K. Very important point.

Plus those of us who read more than they write!

Oh, I'd like to add, my S and DIL had a baby girl Wednesday, December 19th. They are at 2-1/2 years recovered, thank goodness or I'd never had a chance to ever know Miss Claire, all 7lbs. 12oz. of her!

They've never posted here, just had a MB'er for M/MIL! [quote]

That's wonderful news. Just keep vigilant about NC and realize that there will be bumps in the road.