Married 20 yrs
1 son - 14 yr
Very small town.
DD was Sept. 09.
Very public. Made the local news.
3 months of hell, 3 months of trying to reconcile.
Living as roomates, WW has feelings for OM.
"Can't be the wife you deserve"

WW affair was with her former Boss. He is former because when I found out I had a physical confrontation with him at his very public job. He was quickly fired.

WW has sworn to me there has been no contact since Sept. Last night I put a voice activated recorder in her car. Next Day, conversation with her talking to him on the phone. "I miss you"....."I wish I was with you".

Confronted WW....after a few denials and lies she confessed they have talked a few times since Dec. I know its a lie. She says she loves him, but loves me too.

So I told her to leave today. Pack every pair of socks, every hairbrush and be gone when I get home.

What do I do now? I have consulted a lawyer so I am ready to pull the trigger and file.

Do I contact OMW? Do I play the tape to my WW employer?....she says some nasty stuff about her new boss who took over from the OM when he was fired.

Do I tell family? Friends?

Do I just file for Divorce, divide 50/50 and let their sorry asses have each other?

Thanks

RTQ, I would tell everyone about the affair, starting with the OMW and your son. Your son especially needs to be informed and given moral guidance.. I don't know taht I would play the tape for her boss, that is not really relevant to the situation at hand.

What was her reaction to your request to move out?
Will she move out?

She said "ok".

She has called, texted and repeatedly says she is sorry for hurting me. That she wasnt happy and instead of talking to me about it she went out and found someone who makes her happy.

She has been a solid christain, ss teacher, involved in church. The perfect mother and wife for 20 yrs.

You made it easy for her to walk out.
Is that what you wanted?

Now she can say you kicked her out. Instead of it being her choice to leave.

Did you do Plan A?

Since there was public fallout was the A exposed back then or was this limited to your confrontation with OM and his firing? Expose to family and OMW.

The A was exposed to OMW to the whole town. OM admitted it to his bosses made of board of citizens....who quickly fired him.

Also exposed to Family.

Have you ever spoken to OMW? If not do so ASAP. She may do a lot of ball busting on her side but you have to tell her the latest. I assume your son knows due to the publicity.

I did a very poor plan A. I tried to make everything ok but her coldness and distance and not meeting me halfway made it very difficult. We didnt fight but we had alot of relationship talks that she hated. Said she just needed time...and once confessed needed time to see if OM would leave his wife.

Last week I wrote her a loving letter that bascically said I was regaiining my self respect, if she wanted him she should leave, that I would not tolerate her having any relationship with him, and I wish her happiness if she leaves.

I plan on calling the OMW in a few minutes.

Make the call and let us know what she says.

\

Do they all know the affair has not ended? I would get the news out and make sure the OMW and your son know. I would also strongly advise you to meet with the OM and let him know that you will fight for your marriage. You have to cause as much conflict as possible.

Additionally, you should DEMAND that your wife end contact if she is going to stay in your home. Otherswise, she needs to know that you will be filing for divorce.

One piece of advice you were repeatedly given on the other thread was to call the Harley coaching centre. You never answered that or indicated whether you could afford, or were willing, to try their specialist, professional coaching.

I know I should have. I just was at the end of my rope...hence the name....Ready2Quit

I get the name, but what do you WANT?

Do you want your marriage, or do you want out?

I want my marriage.

Okie dokie.

Step 1 is to make a plan and re-tell everyone that nothing has stopped.

Step 2 is to read everything here about Plan A and Love Busters...

Step 3 is to put a leash on your giver for a while...and it might be a long while.

Might I suggest getting your hot little hands on a copy of Surviving an Affair? It's a must read right now. If you can't get it toot-sweet, try looking at your local library. I know I found it at the one in the town we were living when my DDay occurred.

Have you called the OMW yet? You need to know what the real deal is. Just because there was publicity doesn't mean the woman is not clueless about what EXACTLY is going on.

In the process of number 1.

Already done number 2

Will do number 3

Tried about 30 minutes ago. She was in a meeting, will try back in about 15 minutes.

Please read the Carrot & the Stick of Plan A by Pepperband. It is most helpful.

Well be compassionate to her but be direct and stress the urgency of the situation. I would not hestitate to tell BW that your WW is waiting for her WH to dump her either...light the fire.

I have scheduled a counseling appointment tonight with Harleys.

That rocks, Ready.

RTQ,

Send Steve an email NOW detailing your story, yrs married, Dday, kids, etc,,,,your history and what has occurred to date.

It'll save precious & expensive time if he already has this info infront of him while he talks to you.

Re expose and the new boss as well.

I should expose to the new boss as well?

There is a very real chance they will fire WW, even though the old boss has been fired and gone since Sept.

I would not expose to the new boss.

RTQ,

Ask Steve this evening re exposing to new boss.

Since OM no longer works there, I bet Steve will say it's not necessary,,,,,

But-- ask him.
He's the professional.

Well I talked to the OMW. Wonderful christian woman. She knew her husband and my wife were still talking. She stays in constant prayer for her family and mine and has turned her husband over to God.
A few things she said:
- she had no idea until DDay and he was fired
- not sure if her husband loves my wife
- he has always been a kind christian man
- not sure if he will leave for my wife

A Godly woman who is praying her husband returns to God, even if he leaves her.

Send her here! Just be sure to tell her to keep it from her WH until they are in recovery.

I did. I strongly suggested this site to her several times.

I'm get a doormat vibe from this one. I hope I'm wrong.

Don't do that. You will hinder your own plans if she comes here and recognizes you.

Unfortunately, a godly woman without a plan. Turning her husband over to god is hope, it's not a plan. If she wants to save her family she needs to take concrete steps to do so. Prayer can be a part of that of course but it cannot be the whole plan.

Did you talk to her about snooping and verifying NC on her end?

She said she asked her husband if they are talking and he said yes. That was all she shared.

How will she do that? We're talking about OMW.

This is the very reason she ought to come here.

I know we are talking about OMW here but he really knows nothing about this woman. Last thing he needs is a doormat BW who might get scared and blab to OM who blabs to WW about MB. I would not jeopardize a plan with the unknown at this point. OMW is still a wildcard.

Ahhh, ok. I see your point.

Just talked to wife. Remember I told her to be out of house today. She said she call OM. Told him we were getting divorce. He said he didn't know what he would do about his marriage.

WW said she loves him. And has to have him in her life, even if its just to talk.
WW said loves me, doesnt want divorce but has begged me for months for time to sort out her feelings.

Will she be moving out, then, to "sort out her feelings?"

She is moving out because I told her to. I told her to move out because I can't live with a wife who lies to me, seeing another man and is in love with another man.

She has begged you for time to "CARRY ON HER AFFAIR." That is all she wants.

good! A good strategy is to wait about 2 weeks and then shut the door in an air tight PLAN B. In 2 weeks the novelty will have worn off and she will be missing you. That is the best time to deliver a Plan B letter.

Exaclty. So did I do the right thing by making her leave. She said she has tried for 6 months to reconnect with me, and stop loving him but she can't. Says I love you and don't want a divorce but I have to have him in my life right now. Love him. Need to talk to him.

She talked to OM today and told him she was not asking him to leave his wife, that was up to him.

Remind me what you mean by wait 2 weeks and shut the door on airtight plan b. What should the letter say?

This is because she is staying in contact with OM!!! Of course she can't get past it and reconnect with you!! Any fool can see that!! That is why NC is so critical to having any chance to save a marriage.

What if the OM leaves his wife? All hope lost?

No. Most A's fail.

If you protect yourself w/ a dark Plan B, you can protect your love for her and can recover your M, once this A unravels.

And it will.

Their A has already been stung by exposure and loss of OM's job.

Does OM have children?

Yes 23 yr old son.

What do I do for the next two weeks?

I told her that exact thing for months and repeated it today in our phone call.

She said she just has to have him in her life somehow.

You need to write a Plan B letter. There are several examples around here.

It is a short love letter to WW that includes a path back to you and a recovered M. It says that she must agree to NO contact FOR LIFE w/ OM, that she must write a letter stating so that you must approve of and send to OM. And that she will agree to M counseling, and whatever else you need to recover your M.

I wrote her a similar letter 2 weeks ago. Stating my desire to make the marriage work but only if 1. There is absolutely no relationship or contact between them. 2. She return to me and be a faithful loving wife she was for 18 yrs.

Told her if she cant do that she should leave.

R2Q,
I'm in no real position to advise you, but to the question above I would say Absolutely Not. The affair is doomed. It's a "relationship" based on lies and secrecy. It will not withstand the light of day.
Per Surviving An Affair (haven't read your background- not sure what you've had a chance to read), if HE leaves, a rough estimate is 6 month of being together before the reality of the fact that they've both been cake-eating sets in and destroys their little fantasy. [vets will correct me if I'm off-base here]
Do you understand the term cake-eating? They are both meeting each other's most important EN's while their actual spouses meet the other EN's. Once they're exclusive with each other they have to show the rest of themselves and their union is not quite so "romantic" anymore.

Either way, you have a long road ahead of you so buckle your seat belt, if you want the marriage you're about to see just what you are capable of to save it, and you ARE capable.
Implementing the plan as you're being advised (here and with Steve) and sticking to it is your best chance.

good luck,
optimism

We are telling our 14 yr old tonight that WW is leaving. I know she will sugar coat it like "just cant make each other happy"

Should I go that route or reveal everything about her affair, she says she loves him, waiting for him to leave his wife?

Read everything you can on here. And read Surviving an A.

Hopefully someone will post an example of a good Plan B letter. You write yours and post it here so others can tweek it for you.

Get all your ducks in a row so that you do not have to contact her about anything after you give her your PB letter. You need to find someone who can pass messages to her and from her about your son and visitations. That way that person can filter out the hurtful things she will say. And just give you the necessary info.

A dark Plan B means you cannot talk to her, see her, write to her....nothing. Waywards HATE Plan B. She will challange it. Try to get you to break it.

You must be ready for it.

Once OM has to meet ALL of her ENs. Even the ones YOU met for her....the A will crumble even faster.

Do I do plan b letter now or after about 2 weeks seperation?

You MUST tell your son THE TRUTH!!!!

He must know that what his mother is doing is WRONG!

Otherwise he will be morally confused. You taught him that adultery is wrong. DO NOT ALLOW her to say it is OK sometimes.

Tell him that she is hoping to break up OM's M too.

Lay it ALL out there.

Do not protect her at the expense of your son.

He deserves to know the truth. He NEEDS to know the truth.

This decision effects him too!!!!

Many will be praying for you tonight..

Tell your DS the truth. Do not lie or cover for WW. Does your son know about the affair? If not, tell him the truth about it. If he already knows about the affair then tell him that mom is still talking to OM on a regular basis and that is not how married people behave.

Thank you so much. All hell is about to break loose. I have revealed everything to WW mother, my friends, OM wife, and will do more tonight.

Also have session with Hartley tonight.

WW will say I am trying to turn son and mother against her.

Build a tube chassis rock crawler.

Tell your kids the truth, before WW has a chance to lie to them.

Start working on the letter...get everything in order and then after 2 weeks separation give her the letter. And go very dark.

Do not withhold the truth from your son.

I won't. I have taught him there is right and there is wrong and no in between....saying is now a joke between us.

AL HELL IS ABOUT TO BREAK LOOSE.

NO! It's very important to your son's development that you handle this correctly (NOT allowing the lies your ww is willing to tell). Again, I'm not even going to try to advise you but please get a clear answer from a vet before having this 3-way conversation. --good advice came while I was constructing this post--

FWIW, my ww insisted I was "screwing up" my 13 yo by exposing him to the truth. But time and again you read here that kids are not destroyed by the truth, they are damaged by lies and deception.

~opt

Yes, she will.

You are revealing the TRUTH about her BEHAVIOR.

You are under no obligation to keep her filthy secrets from your son or anyone else.

But, you are obligated to tell the truth.

Your son will need the truth so that he can know what to pray for and about....(keep repeating that to your WW).

Good man, you've taught your son well.

All hell IS about to break loose, but only for your ww. You stand on a firm rock of integrity. Don't forget that. Her head will spin like she's possessed. We can all predict what she will say. "I was going to try to work on the marriage but you just blew it," "You're just being vindictive" "How could you ruin my reputation to my family?" etc. etc. She'll try to make the whole thing your fault.
Expect it and don't react. You're doing the right thing no matter what she says.

Remember that as we all learned in Kindergarten: "you can choose your actions but you can't choose the consequences" --ww is going to be reminded of that tonight.

--and I will be among those praying for you tonight.

~opt

My parents went through this once I was grown up. Don't hold back the truth with sugar coated garbage. Be honest with your son and tell him the truth.

"Your mother is having an affair and is leaving because she wants to be with this other man."

End of story.

Telling your son the truth isn't a bad thing and it is more damaging to him to not tell him.

To he77 with her anger. She doesn't understand that she is betraying her son as well.

I'm sure he'll let her know.

RTQ, you should tell your DD the full and complete truth about your wifes adulterous affair and who it is with.

here

Dr. Harley on telling the children:

I knew ML would come through for you - that's the actual info I was talking about; read up prior to your "conversation" tonight

--
If you're not clear on this, I think you're going to plan A your butt off for a couple of weeks; show her what a nice home she has to come home to if she eer pulls her head out of her a$$. Then you hit her with the plan B letter and "see you when you think can act like a wife, but not before"

You're getting a lot of info here - digest it the best you can and try to take steps one at a time. For now, I think you have the "talk" to get ready for (mentally), and then more exposure as you mentioned (this is important). Then, if she's really out of the house, you can relax a little tonight, and then start reading up on plan B and letters - you have a couple weeks to prepare for this phase of the operation. (Read Scotland's post).
You CAN plan A while she's not living with you, it's just a little harder, but it's important to set up a good plan B. Get advice as you go along with that. Remember, plan B is to make sure she doesn't use up all of what's left in the emotional love bank and push you to the point that you forget you were once in love with her - if you let that happen you'll be where I'm at now, plan D. MB principles can work; you have support here so rock on.

good luck.
optimism

bingo! Thanks optimism....

A good Plan B letter:

*************
Dearest WW,
It is with the heaviest of hearts that I write you this letter. I am saddened by what has become of us, our friendship, our marriage. This letter is written to you as a necessity. Allow me to explain.

The eight years that we have been together were filled with an endless number of hugs, smiles, tears and laughs. I have loved you every minute of every day that we have spent together.

I realize that I have not been a perfect husband to you. I see now that both my attitude and financial irresponsibility drove a wedge into our marriage. I apologize to you. You must know that I never intended to hurt you or push you away from me.

The pain that your relationship with OM3 and the relationships that you have had during our marriage has been unimaginable. Continued contact with you has the potential of destroying my love for you and I don't want that to happen.

It is because of this that I must insist that we no longer contact each other, until you are no longer involved with OM3 or anyone else. I ask that you respect my decision. In the event of an emergency, or any necessary financial matters, please contact your mom, and she will contact me. Once you have ended your relationship with OM3 completely, please contact me, and I will be willing to discuss restoring our friendship and marriage.

I am committed to our marriage. I believe that we can build a marriage that is stronger and more beautiful than we have experienced. Beginning today, I walk forward in life, and I want you to walk with me. I love you with all of my heart.

Your loving husband,
Ethan
here

the strategy that Mel is mentioning - wait 2 weeks before Plan B are two reasons:

1.) WW is in a state of euphoric freedom - its all out in the open and she is just waiting for her beau to leave his wife and to be carried off like Cinderella. Once this feeling is past or OM shows his true colours by not leaving his wife or the living together bliss wears off, normal routine will settle in and she will start to realize the family she is missing. Plan B letter will have more impact.

2.) you want to give the best effort Plan A performance just before going dark in Plan B. The sudden change from getting all her needs met and then taking yourself out of loop gives a much larger impact of Plan B.

Sending a Plan B letter now will just allow her to justify why left in the first place.

how's that Mel? miss anything?

I would also call OM and tell him to stay the **** away from your wife and that you are NOT getting divorced, but that you told her you didn't want her staying at home and still be fooling around with you at the same time. She just called you to keep her options open. Tell him it is NOT okay that he continues to contact your wife and try to destroy your family. Let him know that if your WW does break up the family it is 100% on him, not that you and your WW were going to get divorced anyway. You are still trying to fight for your family against the evil of his affair.

I would cut your WW off at this point financially and get a separate account for the family money. Also you need to sit down your son and tell him what's been going on.

you got it! Thanks...

YES!!


YES!! Do not finance her affair. Don't pay her rent, her utilities, ANYTHING to do with her living outside of the marital home. Don't pay her cellphone, either. Let her get a real taste of how rosy life without you is going to be.

And of course tell your son.
Try to do all this without DJs or AOs. Just calm, soft, loving assertiveness. Your son is going to be devastated.

Your WW may not move out. Have you thought about what you'll do if she says she does not want to move out?

Well I did it. Help me know I made the right decision. WW wanted to wait until the weekend to tell son, I said no. She suggested a seperation to give us time, I said no. Told him we were getting a divorce and why.

I said if you love him, lie to me, cheat you cannot be married to me and you need to leave.

We told our son. She wanted to leave it at "we cant make each other happy"

I told him everything. She loves him, can't live without him in her life, and doesn't want to be married to me. She was mad as hell. Vindictive, turning him against me, using him to get revenge.....stopmed out and left.

She talked to OM today and he said he didn't know if he would leave his wife or not.

Am I doing the right thing? Do I talk to her at all now? Do I write a plan b letter?

Help me know this will save my marriage.

Read the previous 10 posts. Besides exposing to your kids, did you re-expose to your WW's family. Call up OM and tell him your intentions (i.e. you are not wanting to divorce) and expose to his parents and siblings. His BW sounds like a doormat that hasn't used exposure to make things hell on her WH for continuing the affair. Make your WW no longer worth OM's effort.

What state do you live in? There are states that have AOA on the books and you can sue him.

You seem to be running around half-cocked on emotion. Get a plan.

But we said we are getting a divorce. She has left, we told son we are getting a divorce. Did I screw up, should I have said seperation instead?

How do you plan A when she is not living with me?

How do you plan A after agreeing to a divorce and telling son of divorce?

You absolutely did the right thing, RTQ. This is the best strategy to kill the affair and save your marriage. When there are not 2 men meeting her needs, her affair will crumble much quicker.

When is she leaving?


And have you finished exposing the affair wide and far?

Yes, the affair was exposed 6 months ago, far and wide. But after learning they are still involved I have kicked her out, telling OMW, relatives everybody she is still involved with OM....and told our son.

Also told son and we agreed to get a divorce. Was that a mistake or should it have been a seperation?

You avoid lovebusters and tell her that she needs to end her affair. Plan only means a) avoiding lovebusters and b) conveying the message that you will meet her needs if she ends the affair in the future. It also means opening up a can of WHOOPASS on the affair and causing as much conflict as possible for the affairees.

Did you see our comments about 2 more weeks of Plan A and then Plan B?

You did good. Did you tell him the name of the OM? He has to know who the enemy is.

Also, have you ever had a discussion with the OM face to face? This can be very effective, because most OM are WIMPS who cannot stand any kind of conflict. It might help if you meet with the OM and tell him there is no future with your wife because he will be eternally hated by your son and the in-laws. I would also tell him he will be hauled into court in any divroce action to give testimony about his adultery. Scare the hell out him. Every time you know of contact, you should be calling him up.

Yes I am just afraid I screwed up by saying I wanted a divorce, she agreed, and we even told our son.

Does that ruin the Plan A and B thing?

Do I suggest to her we have a seperation first before filing divorce?

RTQ, you are doing GREAT. I am so sorry for your little boy tonight. It is heartbreaking this is happening to his family. But he will be better equipped to deal with his mothers destructive behavior if he knows the truth.

I am so sorry for you and your boy, RTQ. But I have seen worse than this come back from the dead.

NOPE! Don't even give it a second thought. It makes no difference in the scheme of things. You did not screw up, my friend.

This is classic.

You did just fine R2Q. You are not your wife's jailer. Let reality smack her in the face. WW stomping off is typical. She may be back especially since OM said he may not leave his wife.

I would try one more time to light a fire under BW and let her know WW has declared she is moving out and even embellish a little bit. Let her know that if she wants to salvage her marriage she better wake up NOW because your WW is going to go all out to get WH to dump her.

RTQ, even if you actually file for divorce, it's a long process and can be stopped at any time. Don't worry too much about giving your son wrong information. You have sent him a strong message about morals. His mother can not live in the house and be a fake wife and mother while she's got a boyfriend on the side.

Unimportant at this stage.

Call OM's wife, ASAP!!!!

All I would change is to tell your son that you didn't "agree" to get a divorce, you just told her she needed to stop her affair w/ OM or you would file, and she didn't stop, so now you are moving forward with it. You wanted and still do want to keep the family together, but not if your WW continues to see OM.

"son, just so you understand, I love your mother and want more than anything for us to be family. I don't want a divorce and will give her a chance to end her affair and come back to the family. If she doesn't do that, then I will have no choice but to get a divorce."

It will be enough for him to know that you will not divorce her if she ends her affair. But will be forced to do so if she doesn't. <-----that is the message he needs to hear.

A message of a willingness to forgive but an unwillingness to tolerate her flagrant abuse. That is how a MAN handles his problems.

R2q, I just wanted to quickly reinforce that you did AWESOME!!
I know you're probably scared as hell. And I know you wonder if you did the right thing. Even with all of us encouraging you, it's hard to hear your wife, the one you've loved for so long, say "That's it! I'm out of here! I'm calling my lawyer tomorrow!!" "blah, blah, blah, and so on and so forth..." [Did her head spin around like in the exorcist???]

Deep breath pal. They ALL say this.
It's an idol threat and here's why (Someone had to beat this into me):
She is basking in the pampering of two men right now. Of course she doesn't want to let one of them go by getting a divorce. She's trying to scare you into changing your mind. She's trying to get you to cave on your own morals. It's simply the first thing that comes to their confused little entitled wayward mind.

Relax. You have taken a stand against infidelity. You have taught your son that adults have to live with their choices. And by not doing what you did (exposing and inviting her to leave the premises), you would be CONDONING it! Would that be a lesson you want to teach your kid? Would you want him to think it would be okay for him to smoke pot everyday as long as he simply didn't bring it up in conversation? No, you've taught him that the TRUTH eventually catches up to everyone, even Mom, and it will catch up to him eventually too when he screws up (which he will), but that you'll be there to support him lovingly back onto the right track.

Stay the course. Try to rest. know we are praying for you. Know you'll ALWAYS be able to say you've fought for your marriage.

~opt

ps you should probably prepare for some more outlandish crap from your ww. You've begun to shatter the illusion of the affair, and she's not going to be happy about it. just take it in stride, it's normal. it's called fog-babble. believe ONLY her actions and disregard about 90% of what she says, maybe more.

my disclaimer: as usual, since I'm no expert, VETS please correct anything above that might be out of kilter, I realize the tenuous place that r2 is in.

And at the end of it, R2Q, you should remember:

Do you want this kind of marriage?

Do you want this kind of wife?

You want a wife who is faithful and a happy fulfilling marriage. So it's either take a stand and force the issue and if that doesn't work...well you don't want half a marriage, right?

Thank you.

Exactly. I told her I deserve a faithful loving wife who wants me.

Thank you so much for this posts. It is a huge help. I was afraid I messed up by forcing the divorce decision instead of separation.

She was actually backstepping, suggesting separation or wait a few days but I forced the issue.

I counseled with Hartleys tonight and will draft a plan b letter and avoid all contact until she makes an honest move back.

WOW!! I feel so much better. That is almost word for word what I told him AFTER she left and AFTER we had told him we were divorcing.

I told him no promises but I wanted to stay married and would do all I can to stay together as long as she ends the affair.

He completely understood.

We talked today. She is a godly woman who is praying desperately for her husband to return to her.

OM told his wife that me and WW were divorcing. OMW said "what does that mean for us" and OM said "I don;t know".

All the more reason you should have a heart to heart w/ OM.

He may feel obligated to leave his M now.

But, if YOU tell him that you would still be willing to forgive WW and recover your M, if they agreed to end all contact....he may be relieved. And encourge her to go back to you...since he very likely doesn't want to end his M for her.

RTQ, here is my favorite Plan B letter:


I would write your letter and post it here so we can give you feedback. You would also need to find an intermediary who will pass on any pertinent information and screen out any of her bullcrap. It is best to set up finances, visitation beforehand so there should be little reason for contact. Get your bank accounts separated and get her names of any credit cards or lines of credit. Act as if you are divorced and proceed accordingly, including planning on changing your locks the day you DROP OFF the Plan B letter. You don�t even want her barging into the house unannounced.

RTQ, do you have the book Surviving an Affair? I would get that. one of the reasons is because it demonstrates very aptly what happens when affairees separate from their spouses and get together with each other. It destroys the affair very quickly because once it is out in the light of day and there is no more sneaking around, the fantasy quickly erodes.

Her affair is doomed. And what you did today has greatly contributed to that death. Reality is now pouring on the affair. The OM will be forced now to do something he has never wanted to do: leave his wife. And when he doesn't leave his wife, it will cause huge conflict and resentment in the affair. Your wife will feel that she has "sacrificed" everything for him. And when he does not make a similar sacrifice, then the punishment and the demands will start. Thats if he doesn't leave his wife.

If he does leave her, then the affair will crumble even faster because the very things that made the affair possible, deceit, thoughtlessness and selfishness will destroy the affair without the protection of the fantasy. The fantasy will no longer be there to offer up protection.

There are no guarantees, RTQ, but your situation is more hopeful today than it has been in a very long time.

THANK YOU FOR TELLING HIM THIS! Kids understand justice, RTQ. They mourn injustice. And watching his own father take abuse without defending himself is heartbreaking. You are a good dad. He knows he can count on you.

My concern now is that OM will leave his wife. That WW love for OM is real and they will be together.

Especially with no contact from me, it seems that will make it easier for WW to leave for good.

That will be perfect! The affair will die faster. Although it will be painful, it will kill the affair faster. And yes, your wife's feelings for the OM are "real." Feelings in affairs are always real, but they are not sustainable in the light of the day.

If the OM does leave, it won't be for long, i predict, becaus he doesn't want to leave his wife. I bet your wife will pressure him to do it, though, wchch will cause more conflict in the affair.


The affair has a 95% chance of crumbling and your marriage has a 65% chance of reconcilation. I am putting my money on you!

Do you have Surviving an Affair? There is a case study in there about a couple in the same situation as you. Moving in together killed the affair quicker than anything.

Please just focus on your Plan A and with sticking with your resolve to stand firm and go to Plan B.

OM will NOT be able to meet all of her needs. YOU were meeting many of them. HE will fail. Write the plan B letter giving her a choice STILL. Then go dark.

You can't control them. You've established your boundaries and given her a choice. This A will crumble and you're helping it along. Good job.

I will post the plan b letter today and for review before I give it to her.

OK RTQ,,, take a deep breath!
You've got several BIGGG steps completed!

Exposed & told your child! Good job!

Now START reading!! Read this site from page ONE to the end. Start on the HOME page & take the "are you new here?" tour! Home Page

Check your local library for Dr Harley's books or order from the MB Book store!

RTQ, you're going to learn about affairs, about relationships, and marriages,,what makes them successful,,why they sometimes fail. You'll learn how YOU can become a PERSONAL success even if your marriage doesn't make it. The more you know, the better plan you develop,,, the more YOU are in control and the less you feel victimized.

Read, RTQ,,,READ!!

I have been using this site for months. Ive read almost every article by Dr. Harley and His Needs Her Needs. I just hope there hasn't been to much hurt and pain to recover from.....assuming OM doesn't leave his BW and assuming WW wants to try again.

We have had many marriages that recovered when the affairees actually left their spouses and moved in together. It makes the affair die FASTER.

Actually, because OM "doesn't know" what he's going to do, I'm thinking your wife will begin LBing all over the place at him. I think it's great that he's sitting on the fence right now.

He can sit on there till the dern thing pokes outta his mouth for all I care...As it is, his indecision is going to begin eating away at your wayward.

Do you know if OMW is going to stay with him? Does she want her marriage? If she does, double bonus!

Good, you've become familiar with the material. And you've begun a dailogue with Steve. Nothing is like the real thing though, and so here you are, and you're doing great.
Just try to throttle back on the "assuming" this and assuming that. You can only control yourself and your actions.

I like the above poster:


This describes me to a tee. MB has taught me so much about myself and the potential of a true real love marriage. Even though my current M is failing, I and my children (and with any luck my ww) will ultimately be in a better place than we would hvae beenwithout everything we've gone through together in the last year or so.

Keep reading and posting - you have good advice here and lots of support.
opt

Well, from where I'm sitting, it looks for all the world like OM is starting to defog and is backpedalling. Or there would have been no hesitation when your WW told him you two were going to D. He would have been house-hunting for the two of them. Even better that OMW is praying for their M - she's doing a great Plan A herself!

This is very, very good, R2Q! :::rubbing hands together gleefully::: Now just try to maintain and be good to yourself. If POSOM is beginning to face the cold light of day, WW will start defogging as well. Be the H she would want. You're doing great!

Another thing, when the A was brought to light in Sept. OM cut all ties with WW. He did not try to contact her at all. WW contacted him in Dec. and they have been talking on phone since.

OM only answer is "I don't now what I am going to do"

Yes OMW wants marriage to work. OMW has told OM its up to you. I am praying for you to return to our marriage and to God.

She is working Plan A and doesn't know it!

Let me translate: "I don't know what I am going to do" = "I don't want to change what I'm doing! I want to have my cake and eat it, too! I don't want to have to make a decision! I don't want to have to take responsibility for my actions!"

I've got to believe that your WW's little fantasy world is going to start tilting on its axis. And I also believe that OM is going to run right back to his BW with his tail between his legs.

R2Q,

You need to get in touch with this POSOM immediatly and make it VERY clear to him the lengths you will go to get him out of your life and restore your marriage.

He needs to believe that you are about to be his worst lifetime nightmare. You have to make it clear to him that the loss of your wife and family will come at a much higher price to him than he ever wants to pay.

Do this today.

No...she is actually working plan doormat... That's a real shame...

It's a shame, but it could also work in our guy's favor.

If OMW isn't MAKING OM do anything, he's more likely to do nothing. It's already clear he wants to take the path of least resistance from his lack of action when WW told him that she and BH were d'ing.

"She talked to OM today and he said he didn't know if he would leave his wife or not."

This is how exposure works. Good job. WW was pushed off the fence. OM now is singing a new tune. OM went from I can't wait til we both get D and live happily ever after to I don't think so any more.

This OM is like many OM. No intention of leaving his BW. He was just looking for extra on the side.

WW has to face this now. It will take time to sink in that she just was being used by the OM.

I have had that conversation with a few punches in the face to go along with it. He was fired from his job 4 days after it.

Or...she knows exactly what will work for the moment. In the short-term, I think OM is going to run home to escape R2Q's wrath. Waywards are notoriously non-confrontational. However, he'll probably do it to his BW again with someone else because of her doormat tendency. Hey, R2Q, maybe direct her to this site at some point. Not sure if now is the time, though.

Did you tell the kids the OM's name, identity?

Nothing like a helpful reminder. He seems to have forgotten.

Just a quick call. Not emotional. More like a cold combination of Bill Hickok and Hannibal Lector. He needs to see the light.

Please tell me if this is a good Plan B letter:

WW,

I want to apologize to you for creating an environment in our marriage that lead to you seeking happiness with another man. The decision to have another child should have been made together, not by just me. My inability to talk a lot about the loss of our other son failed to comfort you, but I was simply dealing with death the way I did in the past, by leaving it in the past. My disconnecting socially and my couch potato lifestyle contributed to your unhappiness and I believe these are the reasons this has happened to us. I am sorry for my part.

I also want to apologize for the hurtful things I have said and the anger I have shown the past 6 months. I have not been the best husband but I hope you know I never intended to hurt you or push you away. I was desperately trying to save our marriage but in reality I was hurting it. I am sorry.

Despite the past 2 years, we have had a good life together full of fun, tears, laughter, growth and joy. I would not want to have shared it with anyone but you.

The pain I feel from your relationship with him is unimaginable. Being around you while you are involved with him will only lead to more angry outburst from me and will only hurt me again, so I am asking you to respect my request that we have no further contact with each other as long as you are pursuing him, waiting on him, or involved with him. I am doing this to protect the remaining love I have for you and I know you have for me. If we need to talk about our son, finances or other business matters please email me or text me.

I am still committed to making our marriage better. I am offering us a chance at a new life, not the same old one we had. This new life will include both of us doing the necessary things to make each other happy. I firmly believe if we follow the correct path and do the right things we can recreate our love and restore our marriage that will not include the things that led to this situation.

In order for that to happen you have to firmly and completely end all involvement with him. It must be 100% and it must be permanent. When you are confident you are ready to do this, call me and we can discuss the next steps and the things required for both of us to do for a new life together as friends and as a Godly family.

I have hope of a much happier marriage together because I know there is history, love, family, and friendship on our side.

BH

Would you read and comment on my plan b letter below?

thanks

Yes. He knows him and told WW last night he hates his guts.

Don't start out by apologizing for anything. You didn't make her have an A.

This is not a good plan B letter.

Can you give me an outline and I can fill in the sentences?

my beloved WW,

I want to apologize to you for creating an environment in our marriage that lead to you seeking happiness with another man. The decision to have another child should have been made together, not by just me. My inability to talk a lot about the loss of our other son failed to comfort you, but I was simply dealing with death the way I did in the past, by leaving it in the past. My disconnecting socially and my couch potato lifestyle contributed to your unhappiness and I believe these are the reasons this has happened to us. I am sorry for my part.

I also want to apologize for the hurtful things I have said and the anger I have shown the past 6 months. I have not been the best husband but I hope you know I never intended to hurt you or push you away. I was desperately trying to save our marriage but in reality I was hurting it. I am sorry.

I have been in love with you since (insert date or event).

Despite the past 2 years, we have had a good life together full of fun, tears, laughter, growth and joy. I would not want to have shared it with anyone but you.

The pain I feel from your relationship with him your adultery partner (insert name) is unimaginable. Being around you while you are involved with him will only lead to more angry outburst from me and will only hurt me again, so I am asking you to respect my request that we have no further contact with each other as long as you are pursuing him, waiting on him, or involved with him. I am doing this to protect the remaining love I have for you and I know you have for me. If we need to talk exchange information about our son, finances or other business matters please email me or text me contact (insert intermediary's name) and he/she will relay important information.

I am still committed to making our marriage better. I am offering us a chance at a new life, not the same old one we had. This new life will include both of us doing the necessary things to make each other happy. I firmly believe if we follow the correct path and do the right things we can recreate our love and restore our marriage that will not include the things that led to this situation.

In order for that to happen you have to firmly and completely end all involvement with him, for the rest of our marriage . It must be 100% and it must be permanent. When you are confident you are ready to do this, call me contact my IM and we can discuss I will relay the next steps and the things required requirements for both of us to do commit for to a new life together as friends in love with each other. and as We can become a Godly family.

I have hope of am certain we can work toward a much happier marriage together because I know there is history, love, family, and friendship on our side.

BH

It still needs tweaking.
Get input from others, before you make your final draft.

Best of luck !

I love the editing. It always amazes me how much can and should be cut out of a BS's first draft of a PBL.

Awesome!

Just curious, how did you avoid assault charges? One of our favorite old former posters here lilsis ended up in jail for a weekend eating bologna sandwiches because she confronted and slapped her OW.

The OM is a wussy. He curled up in a ball and waited for a coworker to pull me off him.

Not sure why he didn't press charges. Just didn't.

Damn that co-worker!

Great image though.

I think I damaged some knuckles. 6 months later two still hurt and have small bumps on them.

WOW R2Q and Pep. I like the editing. I wish I had that letter to give to WH when I went to Plan B. That one is AMAZING.

Sounds like a good old fashioned whoopin!

I remember one night after D-Day telling my WxW that I could not picture a better way to spend a long Saturday afternoon than peeling Gollum's face off with a butter knife.

She knew I meant it.

Love you, man!! I broke my 5th metcarpal in a similar incident during my wife's first A (long time ago). Best pain I ever felt.
[just had to throw that in- now go back to work, :)]

~opt

He she working a plan to return OM to there marriage?

Or is she one of those "If god wants it to be, it will be" and then does nothing type of people?

The good lord helps those who help themselves.

She has put it in Gods hands and told her husband he is free to leave if that is what he wants.

RTQ, take out this comment entirely. Replace it with: please contact ____[designate an intermediary]___with any pertinent information. Otherwise,

Email and text messages are contact, and that will not work.

Also, I would suggest having another face to face with weasel boy if you think you can control yourself from punching him. Even though he DESERVES a beat down, it would harm you legally. CAn you do that?

RTQ, are the parents of the OM living? If so, do they know what he is doing? Does the OM have a facebook page?

Im not sure what another face to face would accomplish? I have talked to him 3-4 times with the last being physical.

The goal is to cause as much trouble as possible. Dr Harley has advised BH's to contact the OM every time he has evidence of contact. To make his life a living, unmitigated hell.

Does she just not care anymore, or is she in Plan-Hope?

If it is Plan-Hope, do you think you could convince her to do an actual plan?

I think parents have passed away. He has no FB page.

OK, should I also delete the asking for forgiveness part at the begining?

I am going to modify Pep's great edit a bit. As it will get confusing I will simply take out what she lined out so that you can see it better.
I was going to add someting but decided that Pep's edit really stands on its own, so I will just repost is to that you can see it without line outs.

God Bless,

JL

PS: You have done a fine job handling this so far. Oddly, I think in the end you will be the one having a problem coming back to this marriage and your W will be the one wanting it more. OM is NOT committed to her. He was just committed to the fun part.

Wow, I can't thank you enough for your words and help. You and others here are an answered prayer....literally.

Honestly I have wondered if I can truly return to this if WW is willing. I hope and pray I can.

You are very perceptive. Why do you say that about me having the hard time?

R2Q,

You asked Because you are going to be learning alot of things on this site. YOu have already learned alot of things and most of all you have learned what a real and good relationship/marriage is. You know what you need now. YOu know what you can give. You know what you cannot do, principle among those is change your W. You know she will have to do a lot of hard work. AND YOU will have doubts because frankly she doesn't know what a good marriage is or can be.

Most BS's have a hard time, but your W is still in the A and as time goes on, you will learn you can live without her. You will also learn what you cannot live without, and if she cannot provide what you cannot live without, you will have a hard time accepting less.

I'm not saying that your marriage won't survive. I am saying that she is really going to have to make a compele 180 and some WS's do. But, the longer she continues the A the less margin of error there is. Harley states that recovery is a very very narrow path and that is why he doesn't tolerate people "doing it themselves and ignoring his advice."

You have done well. There is hope, but I can sense you growing as you learn and endure. Hence my comments to you. Whether it is this marriage or your next, you WILL BE a much better husband, friend and companion and you will require more from your partner.

Just thoughts.

God Bless,

JL

Hell yes!

Disrupt, disrupt, disrupt the affair.
Make it all not worth it for this piece of garbage.

opt

JL, this one's for you.

Pep,

Where did you find this???? I gotsta know. I have a whole mailing list I need to send this to.

Thanks,

JL

WOW!! I just got off the phone with WW. Remember I forced her to leave yesterday. WW in love with OM. I Told her we were divorcing, she immediately tells OM the "good news".

Yesterday OM told WW he didn't know if he could leave his wife.
I talked to OMW and she confirmed OM doesn't know what he is going to do.
WW told me she would call him today and find out what he was going to do. She seemed confident of what the answer would be.

Well I just talked to her and said, I think I have the right to know if you have talked to him and if he is leaving his wife so I hear it from you and not the garbage man.

Well she broke down. Said he called her this morning, OM said he hated himself for ruining WW life, was very short and "panicked tone". OM said I just dont think I can leave my wife.....and then hung up on WW.

Well I turned on the kind heart and said I know that had to hurt you and I am sorry that you are hurting, regardless of the unpleasant reason.

WW asked me "do you think he used me". I said I have told you that he was a player for months and when crunch time comes he will not leave his wife. Said this has forced him to decide and he is willing to play and have fun as long as he can be a cake eater and have both. LOL......LOL

R2Q,

Some things just never change. I actually feel sorry for your W, but then again, she did the same thing to you didn't she?

She made a promise/vow to you and then she "changed" her mind. Didn't bother her much, won't bother him much, and you???? Heck ya, but you are seeing things clearer now aren't you?

As her fog clears she will as well. Perhaps she will want to come back, and perhaps she will not. Even if she wants to come back, she is going to have to make some decisions and the LARGE one will be can and will she change her perspective on marriage and you.


Hang in there.

JL

RTQ, I am not surprised, and the reason I am not is because if he had wanted to be with your wife, he would have left his own wife a long time ago. But what they want is to have their marriage AND the affair.

And believe me, they will try their best to finagle it back to that status if you give her a chance. I would leave her out there for a few weeks and make sure the affair is ended before you even consider taking her back. Lest you find yourself back in the same boat next week.

If this has any chance of working, she will have to end all contact with the OM and commit to recovering your marriage. To protect yourself, I would ask her to send him a no contact letter [written by her approved by you and mailed together] and then get her to agree to go to a Marriage Builders weekend. This is a months long program that is launched by the weekend and they assign you a COACH who assesses your situation and gives you weekly lessons until the goal of ROMANTIC LOVE is achieved. That will ensure that your marriage is saved from this very long affair.

If I were you, that is the ONLY WAY I would take her back. And I would not take her back until she has gone a few weeks without contact. Taking her back now will just put you back in the same position you were in last Monday. I assure you they will be striving to get back to the status quo ASAP.

RTQ, the weasel has probably been telling your wife that he "doesn't love his wife, hasn't loved her in years, blah, blah, they haven't had sex in 20 years, blah, blah, blah...." and it is all lies. Has your wife mentioned anything like that?

If so, I would tell the OMW and get the truth so you can pass that onto your wife. Your typical OM will lie like a rug to his OP.

If you see any opportunity to use such information, do it, because it will greatly damage the affair even more.

Because WW is going to say "T2Q kicked me out; he is filing for D, he no longer wants me" and YOU will say "I want my M to work more than anything in the world. Stay away from my WW."

OM needs to hear the truth from your mouth.

I'm not surprised either.

Please listen to the excellent advice, Mel gave you about not taking her back right away.

I have seen too many rush this VERY important stage. You have to understand that there has been a power shift in your R. You need to raise the bar in terms of what kind of M you want to have.

So take your time here. Don't be in a rush to move her back in. Her head is still completely fogged up.

Did you ever see the movie The Painted Veil? It's a great movie about an immature, spoiled, wealthy woman who married a scientist to get away from her mother. He was in love w/ her, and knew she didn't love him, but hoped she would grow to. She had an affair. When her BH found out about it, he told her she must go w/ him to an area in China where there was an epidemic of Cholera....hoping that she would catch it and die.

I won't give the rest of the story away, but it is REALLY good.

There was one point in the movie where she didn't understand why this beautiful young Chinese woman was in love w/ an older unattractive man. And it was told to her that the young woman loved him b/c he was "a good man". The WW laughed and said,"Women don't love men for their virtue."

She had so much to learn.

And so does your WW.

So be patient.

That was a great movie, marshmallow

Ditto what Mel and Marsh said about not taking WW back right away. She needs to earn her way back.

This is another reason you need to talk directly to OM and OM's W -- so they know you are not abandoning the marriage. So they won't believe WW when she says you have dumped her. OM will quickly tire of her neediness and lies -- but he can only know she is lying if you have told him the truth.

Since your WW got dumped again and looks like she'll be saying with you, I have a suggestions:

FIND A WAY TO MOVE TO A DIFFERENT TOWN!

Get OM out of the picture for good. If you stay in town, there will always be this wavering back and forth. OM will dump your WW, you'll work on your M for a few months, and then your WW will contact OM again to try and start things up again. This may be a never ending cycle as long as OM is in close proximity. I would find a way to get out of Dodge if you know what I mean.

So it only took about 48 hours from the time I kicked WW out, she told OM we were divorcing, then he tell WW he can't leave his BW......for their relationship to crumble. It may not be completely dead but for the first time their is stress, negativity, mistrust between them.

WW still thinks we are divorcing. Has not asked to come back. I have not asked her to come back.

Do I plan A right now even though we are not living together? When the opportunity presents?

I have written a Plan B letter but was going to wait a week or two to give it to her. Should I still do that even though OM has said he will not leave his wife?

I do not plan on letting her come back without some concrete committments in place about how things will be from now on. I don't know exactly what those are but I hope everyone here will help me define them.

Thanks everyone.

OM has told WW those things.

I have a question. I counseled with Jennifer Harley Friday night and it was great.

I think I should ask my WW to counsel with Steve H.? I think he would be fantastic for her to talk to him on the phone, explain her situation and just listen to him. I honestly think she would be open to the idea.

Is that a wise move? Is there a danger in WW coming to this website? Or should I just leave her alone for now?

Confused.

ummm, hold you're horses.
Slow down and don't be referring your WAYWARD wife to anything just yet. She is WAYWARD and will be WAYWARD for some time. Even if her relationship is totally over, her head is still in the clouds ("foggy").

Talking to Steve is never a bad idea if she'll do it, but I don't think you want her lurking around here. Remember you still have the Plan B letter to make these types of "demands/suggestions/requests" (not sure the right word for them - I never made it that far...).

I'm no pro and a vet will advise you better, but the w/e's are sometimes slow so I thought I'd get in on this before you get carried away. I'm thinking you have to stick with your plan (Plan A for now and preparing for Plan B). Stick with it real hard friend, although one battle may be going in your favor here, I think the fun is just beginning.

Bottom line is that you really want to do everything to guard against a "false recovery" - perhaps the second most pervasive subject on this board. [e.g. my ww literally went from one busted up affair (due to a nasty exposure) to another inappropriate 'friendship' [with a possible little undercover episode in between]]

The wayward mind is nothing to try and figure. I'd leave her alone until you get more experienced advice - just plan a, let her know there will be a good place to return to when she decides to respect you and your son.

~opt

RTQ, I would stick with your plan and give her the Plan B letter in 2 weeks. Then if she agrees to the things in the letter, she can speak to Dr Chalmers. I would stick with the same coach since she knows your situation.

Just stick with the plan and do your best Plan A in the next 2 weeks. And keep in mind that Plan A does not stand for [censored] kissing or appeasement. It means avoiding lovebusters and ensuring your spouse that you would be willing to forgive her and work on having a happy marriage in the future if she ends her affair. Don�t tell her you will forgive her no matter what, that leads to unrealistic expectations of entitlement.

So, just stick to your plan. You are doing just great, my friend!

optimism is right, don't bring her to this forum now!! You will lose it as a resource.

Ok, but its hard to do Plan A (assure her she has a safe home to come back to, and I am willing to work on marriage) when the situation right now is we are getting a divorce. WW has found a place to stay. I can easily avoid the love busters but hard to practice plan A when we are planning a divorce.

Remember I have not delivered plan b letter which lets her know I am willing to work on marriage. Right now she thinks I want a divorce.

I Will not refer her to this site, but I hope she can eventually counsel with Jennifer or Steve.

slow down big fella. relax. Divorce takes A LONG TIME. ( I know, I'm in the middle of it and am trying expedite it, and it's still like an eternity.)
A lot can happen and usually does during these trying and tense times. Right NOW you're getting a D, three days from now the tide could be starting to turn.
stick to the plan.

opt

RTQ, you can do Plan A just fine. Just stick to the plan. Avoid lovebusters, be as attractive as possible and then let your Plan B letter explain everything when you go dark.

If she expresses a desire to reconcile, you can make counseling with Steve or Jennifer a condition.

Thanks so much.....whew.

Thank you so much for taking the time to help.

God Bless all of you for the work you are doing.

Talked with WW this morning. She called in a tizzy saying I had done something to her cell phone sim card in order to spy on her. I hadn't. I calmly explained I didn't and then the conversation went like this:

WW: You are trying to destroy me by telling my friends and family that I am involved again with OM. This should be private between us.
Me: I don't think so, I am trying to reveal to your friends what you are doing so they can talk with you and be your friend.

WW: Well I don't know what OM is going to do. I haven't talked to him. No matter what he does our marriage is broken after all the things I have done and all the things you have done (major love busters) since D day 6 months ago.
Me: We both made alot of mistakes and it will take alot of patience and forgiveness to get past those.

WW: It wasn't just an affair, it was real love.
Me: I'm sure it was, but feelings can change under the right circumstances and I am willing to work through that but not as long as you are involved with OM.

Me: It appears he is willing to say he loves you, show he loves you as long as it is secret. Both times it has gone public he runs. He has a chance right now to live up to all the love things he said to you but instead he calls you and says he is staying with BW and hangs up on you.

Me: Just so we are clear, why did I make you leave and ask for divorce?
WW: Because you can't be married to a wife who loves another man.

Me: No, I can tolerate that for a while as long as we are doing the right things to change that. We are in this position because I will not be married to a wife who is involved with another man.

Me: I know you have alot of girlfriends to talk to but if you need a friend I will listen and talk. I hope you a good day today.

I never lost my cool, stayed very calm.

Did I do ok?

BRAVO!!!

The reason you did so good is because you didn't try to REASON with her, but you just stated your position calmly and respectfully. The mistake that BS' make is that they try to REASON with their WS; that is the same as trying to reason with a falling down drunk.


I am especially impressed with this. It is dangerous to put down an OP to a WS [because they will go into defense mode] but this was just enough by reminding her of the truth without trashing the OM.

You did good! Keep up the good work!

Backbone. I am impressed.

Larry

Very well done R2Q!

Just stop with the divorce talk now. If she wants one, let her go get it. Your mantra will be that there is a way to fix this.

"wouldn't the best outcome be for you and I to be in love and happy and keep our family together? there is a way for that to happen...."

If she wants to start talking divorce logistics tell her "I am willing to talk about fixing our marriage, have your attorney talk to my attorney about divorce."

And now is the time to start letting her no that divorce is not going to be friendly or pleasant. You will not be best friends afterwards. You will not be friends AT ALL.

Agree with Lexxxy.
Don't mention D or even talk about the M unless she brings it up. If *she* brings up D, just say "I don't feel like talking about that right now... hey, did you hear about (something the kids did, something a neighbor did, a movie that just opened up, something she'd be interested in).


Focus on a killer Plan A for the next couple of weeks.

You can meet her needs for conversation via telephone, text, email, and cards/letters.

What are her top 3 ENs? Post them here and you'll get ideas on how to meet those ENs while living apart.

You know, the D isn't going to happen unless you file and push it through. Just forgeddaboudit.

I asked her several months ago to take EN questionnaire and she wouldn't. I believe her top three are.

1. Conversation
2. Admiration
3. Affection

R2Q- I am really impressed by the way you handled yourself.

Don't be alarmed if you post something like that and some posters tell you what you need to improve. It is not that you did things wrong, it it just that there is a lot to learn and the more input you get the better equipped you will be. GREAT JOB.

WW came over to pick up son and out of the blue:

WW: Why would you even want to still be married to me?
ME: Because we can be happy if we make the right changes.

WW: Do you think his feelings for me are not real?
Me: Im sure they are to some degree, but I have told you before you seemed way more involved in this than him.

Me: He has had plenty of chances to make yall a legitimate couple and has never done it, but is more than willing to love you in secret.

WW: I think he is just overwhelmed with the guilt and can;t hurt anybody, especially his wife anymore.
ME; Just judge him by his actions not his words. His actions say you are not as important to him as his words.

ME: If he loved you more than anything,more than his wife, more than his family yall would be moving together instead of you moving alone.

I wouldn't have been so kind to him. I would have said he wants to stay married to his wife and sneak around with you for fun on the side. He's just using you for sex. Besides, if OM was willing to cheat on his wife with you, what makes you think that he would ever be faithful to you?

Then I would have transitioned into just because you have strong feeling for him right now doesn't mean that you should pursue this relationship. We shouldn't always do just what "feels good" without regard for others. What kind of message is that teaching our children. These emotions are just the result of the excitement of a new relationship. We could feel the exact same way about each other if we just worked on our relationship more instead of taking each other for granted, and we wouldn't have to wreck two families in the process. I'm willing to work to get that back, but only if OM is completely out of the picture for good. In the long run, I promise you'll be happier with me. I'm willing to stick by you when the going gets tough. What has OM done with you when the going got tough?

Alot has happened Since Friday. Want proof exposure to OMBW works?

OM told WW he had told his wife he was leaving her. This is BEFORE I talked to OMBW who tells me OM said he was staying.

I unknowingly tell WW OM said he was staying. WW knew I talked to OMBW and found out this info.

WW shocked. OM had told her he had already told his wife and his parents he was leaving. He had not, FIRST LIE WW has caught him in.

Then out of the blue OM tells WW he can't do it, packs bags and him and his BW wife go out of town for 3 days.

WW is really hurt. CAn't believe OM was playing her. She still thinks OM will leave....but she is really hurt.

WW is opening up to me about all this and I am just trying to be her friend and tell her he used her, she is begining to think so but is in denial.

What do I do? conitnue to be there as a friend for or just back off and let it play out?

Fulfill her needs, and find an anger outlet while she talks about how much she misses him, and loves him, etc. Since I know it will upset you.

You should Plan A. Maybe you need to come up with some pocket responses and some reverse fog babble so you don't love bust her by trying to educate her and make her see that POSOM was just using her.

Other than that I think I have to say you are doing AMAZING.

It sounds good so far, but don't let her get into 'victim' mode to the point where she doesn't own what she did. OM didn't 'make' her decide to have an A. She did that on her own. Relieving her from any ownership of the A may create a problem of addressing what needs to be done to repair your M.

Yes, you just continue to be her friend for the next week. And around Friday night get the Plan B letter to her and go dark as night. This will be perfect timing because the OM will be with his wife so she will not be able to contact him. She will spend the weekend all alone with out you and without the OM.

When you do this, I strongly suspect she will try to get you to break your silence and will test your resolve. So it will be critical that you don�t let her through. She will initially try to get you to stay in contact with her by making �promises� to �try� etc, etc, blah, blah. But with no real commitment to end her affair for life and commit to fixing the marriage. RESIST those kind of offers because they will lead to a very painful false recovery.

Do you have an intermediary? A good IM will SCREEN out these kind of offers. If your IM needs help in that regard, you can refer him/her to me at ohmelodylane@aol.com

And in the still of the night, without contact with either you or the OM, she will have to face her demons. She may call family or friends. Hopefully they will support the right path. From Plan B letter, she should have a road map for the non negotiable route to you.

Larry

R2Q, the stars are lining up in your favor. Not many are as fortunate as you. If you listen to ML and Larry and the other veterans here, this could be a crucial point in your marital recovery.

They have great guidance. DO NOT DEVIATE FROM THEIR ADVICE.

More power to you.

A couple questions:

What if she wants to come back before the Plan B letter is given to her? Should I agree provided the concrete plans are in place to permanently end her relationship with him and commit to the steps from Marriage Builder?

Are you suggesting I deliver Plan B this Friday or next Friday?

Should I do anything special for Plan A right now or just avoid love busters and meet needs?

Thanks so much.

If that happens, I take your time to see if she is really sincere. Ask her to send a no contact letter to the OM and to commit to a recovery program. But take your time and date for a couple of weeks to test her sincerity.


I am thinking this Friday. What do you think?

In Plan A, just be nice and avoid lovebusters.

I'm having a hard time pulling the trigger on delivering the plan b letttr. Here is why.
Remember:
Caught WW on phone with OM whom she confessed affair 6 months ago.
Kicked her out, exposed to everyone.
OM promised he was leaving his BW. Didn't. Called WW and said he couldn't and then left for 3 day weekend with his BW.
WW says she has not talked to him since. Week and half.
I have been doing killer plan A, consulted with Harleys and just being nice.
WW has been very nice, we talk, a couple of hugs, a few I love yous.
We are not living together.

My problem is everything is going ok. A plan B letter just may ruin the progress?
Also, out of sight out of mind.

WW has told me she understands she needs to be the one to ask to come home and that if I agreed it would be under very specific conditions.

Do I give it another week and see if she comes around on her own or go to Plan B now?

Personally, I'd do a couple week plan A now that it seems like OM dumped your WW for good, so that plan B will hit her harder if it gets to that point.

If you are able to work Plan A w/o it wearing on you, then I would continue working it for a bit.



Plan A is not meant to continue forever. At some point your W will have to get on board w/ recovery. If she continues to move towards you and recovery, you may not need to Plan B her.

Larry;

What do you think about my concerns of delivering the Plan B letter now vs waiting another week of more Plan A.

We are not living together but talk and see each other for a minute or two every day.

I almost have her convinced to counsel with the Harleys. I am shooting for Monday if she will agree.

Thanks,

Also, I almost have her convinced to counsel with Harleys.

Our son has his first baseball game this weekend and I suspect she will ask or I will suggest we go together as a family instead of separate...since we are living apart.

Sounds good on all fronts!

Keep us posted on how things are going.

RTQ, I agree with your thinking. With things going so well, there is no reason you can't put this off for a couple more weeks. You just don't want her to get too comfortable in her new digs, because once that happens you will have lost an advantage.

HOWEVER, if things are going good and she don't think the OM is going to allow her to get through, you have hope.

You have nothing to lose by waiting a while longer, RTQ.

RTQ

Steve did a beautiful job talking to my WW .....

I think it would be to your advantage If you can hold off on Plan-B until he talks to her .....

It's not a magic bullet but it's close.... He'll put things in her head to think about on those cold nights alone...... and you'll be looking better buy the minute to her.....

I agree with ML nothing to loose by waiting a while longer....

I have one other question. We are living apart but she has been dropping by to pick up our son when I am not at home. She uses the computer to check her email, maybe watch a little DVR, wash our clothes (not hers).....

just wondering if that is ok. Should I gently stop it and say we have separate houses now....I can't go hang out at your place for an hour watching TV.

I have avoided that in order to stick with PLAN A.

I my mind your not in Plan-B yet......

So I think it's more than ok.... sounds like she's trying to reconnect to you ......gets comfort from being home......

Anything to help her reevaluate leaving her marriage.....

When you get to plan-b all that changes.....

I would let her keep coming to your house. The more time she spends there and the more comfort she gets the better. I would recommend keylogging the computer though so you can check her activity. If she spends her time on the computer trying to connect with OM or anyone else, then I would pull the plug.

This is good! She is missing her home. See, when the OM comes back she will try and get him back on the farm. She may chase him for a while longer. After a couple of weeks of that, you should go dark and shut her out. That will yank her off the fence.

I asked her last night if she was still "waiting on him" to have a change of heart and leave his BW. Her answer:

"No.....I am really curious why he changed his mind after he told me he was leaving.....I think he will call or send me a letter to explain.....but right now I am waiting on ME.....I am trying to know in my heart if I want to stay in this marriage regardless of what he does".

Also said this separation has been good for her to take the pressure off day to day and allow her time.

You aren't supporting her financially still are you?

When you cut her loose for Plan B, she needs to be set totally adrift. Not even a single oar.

No, we are splitting the costs of our main house that I live in and expenses related to our son.....she is paying all expenses related to her house she is living in.

I don't think her expenses are very much, she is staying at an empty house owned by a friend.

There's a sad statistic in SAA book....

Most WW's won't return to their marriage until their dumped by the OM.....

Looks like your hitting on all 8 cylinders !!!!


Your still getting to Plan-A her and She's getting a nothing from the OM .....

It's just hard to take that the only reason the WW comes back is because she got dumped.......

I'm with ML ....I see alot of hope here.... even odds you won't have to pull the trigger on Plan-B

BINGO!

Sounds very familiar to me...

This is a lie. She is waiting to see if she can get him to leave his wife. That is what she is waiting on. When she sees that he won't leave is when she will come back.

RTQ, asking a liar for the truth is a little unrealistic.

I am pulling for you, Ready...I really hope your WW comes around.

The above quoted truism is a cold fact that many BHs (myself included in the past) have a hard time with. Yes, there are outlying exceptions of course but they are very rare. The vast majority of WWs:

Do not leave their affair/OM voluntarily (a BH isn�t going to successfully �out-romance� or convince her out of it)
Only reconsider their marriage if/after the OM dumps them
Are considerably more difficult and less likely to recover a marriage with than WHs

Personally, I think Plan B (other than its important individual benefits) is far less effective as a recovery-tool in the BH/WW scenario. Nuclear exposure�focused esp. on the OM, cuz she ain�t gonna dump him�is the best hope for getting him to leave a WW. That is the only way the affair is likely to end, at least in time for it to be meaningful for the marriage. If the OM hangs on to the WW through Plan A and well into Plan B, the BH has very little chance to avoid divorce.

WWs simply don�t cake-eat nearly as much and nearly as long as WHs do. It�s far less likely for the marriage/BH to �out-last� a WW-affair. Unless the OM dumps her fairly early on, she usually vigorously pursues divorce even if the BH does not.

Right on the money.

She is keeping you "on the side" as a backup while waiting to see if the OM will leave his wife to be with her.

If he does, she will be gone like a rocket to be with him.

RTQ, I guarantee this is true. Prepare yourself because that is exactly what happened to me. Unfair as it is, your marriage prospects depend almost exclusively upon OM/OMW right now. Your WW has one toe in your marraige and the other 99% of herself with the OM emotionally right now.

I hope for your sake that the OM is permanently done with her; then you 2 can recover. God Bless

can you give some more info about this voice activated recorder?