Post your story here and ask the vets to help!

Could someone help me find and post a link to the Carrot and Stick of Plan A post? Thank you!

I was just looking for it, I will if I find it. Big bad storm here so I don't know how long I will have a connection.

Here it is...
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1518204#Post1518204

On May 24th I received a phone call from my husband's secretary's boyfriend stating that she had left her computer on and found e-mails between her and my husband and it was obvious that they were having an affair. He forwarded me all the e-mails. On several friends advise I went and saw 3 different lawyers before confronting him.

When I confronted him he acted like it was no big deal. Then he was surprised when I told him to leave that night. He came home the following night and we talked - he told me that he was confused and didn't know what he wanted - I told him that we have to go to marriage counseling - I admitted to my faults and told him that I wanted to work on those and get back to a happy us.

Since finding out my world is spinning. We have 2 small kids (under the age of 5)I found myself throwing myself at him and showing him how much I wanted this to work. That backed fire and it was overwhelming to him. Since then I have been working on the items I was going to work on (mostly for myself and then for our marriage).

He has told me that he doesn't want to do stuff with me, only the kids and that he doesn't find me attractive. I am emotionally drained. I have no idea if the affair is over, even though he tells me it is. We have gone to see a marriage counselor once and go back tomorrow.

I just want him to be a man and tell me that either he is 100% committed to working on this marriage (and show me in some small way) or just leave so I can move on with my life.

Can anyone help me or offer some advice?

Thanks

Fantie,
Glad you made it! Start reading at this link and post some of the answers to the questions in the first post.
Scottie's thread for the newly betrayed

Welcome to MB! Chrysalis is a true friend to bring you here. Your best chance at saving your marriage is by using Dr. H's methods. Is the OW still working for your H? Have you exposed the affair and if so to whom?

Welcome, Fanti. I am so sorry for your pain. You have a good friend in Chrysalis. She has been a friend to me when I felt like I had none. You have found absolutely the best chance of saving your M in MBs.

Traditional MC is worthless as long as your WH is involved in an active A. You have already begun the carrot of the carrot and stick but you need to use the stick now to try to break up the A. Exposure is sure best bet of accomplishing that.

Read all of the most popular links to the right and everything else that you can til you can't read anymore. Then order the books. Come here with any questions and to vent. You are not alone anymore.

God's Blessings,

Say

Fantie, bumping you to page 1!

The A is still going! If they still see each other it's still going on, sorry to say.

If you really want to save your marriage you need to start doing plan A, and KEEP Snooping, never confronting him about anything you find, just put it in a file where you know your husband wont find.

Also you need to EXPOSE this to EVERYONE! Family, friends, co-workers, the OW's family and friends, etc.

Sorry you are here, there are a lot of vet's who can help you just listen and DO what they say to do!

I encourage you to expose. To family, friends, co workers, everyone. The OW's boyfriend obviously already knows; what is he doing about it?

I also encourage you to be tested for STDs. You can go to your gyn and ask for it; this is what I did. It is such a relief to get the letter saying you are clean! Also my doctor prescribed meds because I sobbed through the whole thing and told her the story. The meds helped me. She told me that about half the women in her practice have gone through or are going through this. HALF! UGH!

Well you were all right - it is still going on. I worked at the hospital on Sat. night and he took the kids (on father's day) to the movies - I woke up early that afternoon and went on his computer - the dumb [censored] - left it up so I started copying all the stuff between them - then he must have known because while he is at the movies - he deletes them all and goes into my account (all from his blackberry from the movie theater) and deletes them as well - luckily I had saved some to my new e-mail account that he doesn't know about - I have 19 pages of e-mails from the week of 6/14 up until 6/21 at 2pm.

I called his mom and told her and she was shocked - she called him that night and he told her that the affair had been over since I first found out on 5/24 - however I have proof that it's still going on (one of thier text's was - hi beautiful - standing outside the movie's waiting to see toy story 3 with the kids - can't wait until we can go to the movies)

I left the house so fast tonight (as I had picked up an extra shift at the hospital) I didn't even want to see him - I am so digusted - I am not sure even if I want to make it work- he can have her - I deserve better

I am afraid to tell his workers - he is the boss and I need him to have his job so he can support us - I am a stay at home mom and I work prn at the hospital to keep my license active -

What should I do now? Help!!!!

I need help with all this lingo on here?

DH?
DS?
OW?
BW?
FWH?

How or where do I go to put my information (like stay at home mom, day I found out, my kids ages?)

Thanks

DH = Dear husband
DS = Dear son
OW = Other woman
BW = Betrayed wife, you
FWH = former wayward husband (as in a wayward husband who is no longer wayward)

Thanks.

Also my concern is we have no money - I work prn (1 shift a week) to pay for the kids fun activites - i also found when looking at his computer that he had pulled up apartments - I guess he was going to get one - have no idea how he is suppose to pay for that since we have no money and the lawyer i consulted told me that he has to continue to pay the mortgage and support me and the kids.

decisions decisions. Any advice?

If he moves out, have your lawyer (if you can) get emergency support. Too many BWs just think that he will continue to pay for things. He won't. He will try to short you.

You should also try to pick up more shifts.

What about

WS?
BS?
Op?
SF?

WS = Wayward spouse (a generic term, rather than WH or WW, the latter of which is wayward wife)
BS = Betrayed spouse (generic term)
OP = other person (generic term)
SF = S Fulfillment (You can figure it out from there. What your WH should be doing with you)

Thanks - if you don't mind me asking - did this MB work for you and your situation? Am I just wasting my time?

I haven't had to use the MB program--I am an unmarried young woman who seeks to be sure that she doesn't have to seek advice here later on.

However, there are many people who have done this to success, most of the vets included, one of which I am not.

It's just so early in the day that most of the vets are not awake yet. Either that or they're busy (as we have MB people all over the globe).

fanti, welcome to Marriage Builders, sorry you are here. The most impactful thing you can do to save your marriage is expose this affair. It should be done in a wide spread, strategic manner all on the same day. Doing it on the same day ensures a tsunami effect that is hard for the affairees to recoup from.

Exposure is the most powerful weapon because it is like turning on the lights in a crack house and bringing in a crowd of people. It is no fun getting high when everyone is watching. Dr Harley, the founder of Marriage Builders, and clinical psychologist, says this about exposure:

here

Exposure works immediately in some cases, in others it hastens the death of the affair. There are no guarantees, but it is your best weapon.

Best practices that we have found around here are doing it all in one day. Make up a COMPREHENSIVE LIST of exposure targets and start exposing by making phone calls, sending emails, sending overnight letters.

Exposure targets are :

1. parents of ALL - yours, his, the OW's - call them up and tell them about the affair and tell them you are trying to save your marriage. Ask for their advice. Ask the OW's parents to use their influence to persuade their daughter to quit her job and leave your H alone

2. close friends and family - call them up and tell them about the affair and tell them you are trying to save your marriage. Ask for their advice.

3. employer, if a workplace affair [we have a letter that should be sent to Human Resources]

4. facebook exposure of the OW and your H. This has proven to be a very powerful exposure tool. you would make a copy of all their contacts and save in a Word doc. Send them a private email asking them to use their influence to persuade the adulterers to end their affair. Space the emails out so that facebook doesn;t shut you down. Enlist one of your friends to help you in this. [I will post some sample letters below]

This is your most powerful weapon against the affair, fanti. Additionally, I would stay in constant contact with the OW's BF so you can compare notes and cause as much conflict in the affair as possible.

Do you have the book Surviving an Affair? I would get that ASAP so the things we are tellng you make some sense.

p.s. And please don't go to counseling. That is the worst thing you can do with a wayward. Marriage counselors give advice based on current feelings and desires and most MC's don't understand the fog of a wayward. They are likely to tell him to take action based on current feelings and then you are screwed because he now has the blessing of a counselor.

Another thing you can do that has proven to be one of the most powerful weapons against an affair is exposure on facebook to the OM�s friends. Facebook is a collection of the person�s closest and most important friends, all in one spot! We have had numerous affairs killed in the SAME DAY after a facebook exposure. They are DEADLY. What we did was make a copy of all the names of all the OP�s friends FIRST. [this is important because once the OP gets wind you are sending out messages to his friends, he will close his page] You will have to send out an email, one by one to his facebook friends. It should go something like this:

Facebook exposure letters

Dear friend of Joe Scumbag,

It grieves me to write this letter but I believe all of his friends should know the kind of person he really is. Joe had an affair with my wife, Sally, from Aug until September. I believe that his friends should know this, so you can protect your marriage from him. My wife and I have 2 small daughters and this affair has almost wrecked our marriage.

I would be happy to provide the evidence to anyone who asks.

I would appreciate it if someone would notify his parents and ask them to call me at xxx-www-xxxx.

Thank you, BH

Dear friend of Skankyhola,

It grieves me to write this letter but I believe all of her friends should be aware that Skanky is having an affair with my husband, Joe. We have been married for 5 years. They have been having this affair since October according to the evidence.
I would be happy to provide the evidence to anyone who asks.

I would ask that you use your influence with Skanky to persuade her to leave my husband alone. You should also watch your own husbands around her because she is no friend to marriage.

I would appreciate it if someone would notify her parents and ask them to call me at xxx-www-xxxx.
Thank you, BW

Hi fantie (I feel like I'm saying fannie and that just seems so wrong, LOL)...

Mel is right, nuclear exposure is crucial right now. My H's affair died the day I exposed and we have been in recovery ever since.

Please don't wait; get your list together and expose this affair today. It's your best chance at saving your M.

I'm sorry you are here but this is the place to be if you want to recover from this.

Fantie,

I am so sorry to hear that things are still going on. And I am very glad that you came here for help and that people are taking the time to post to you.

Until the affair is ended, including complete, verifiable no contact (NC) between your husband (H) and his OW, nothing will fix your marriage. However, the plans and tools of MB will go a very long way towards helping and healing YOU and if implemented carefully, giving your marriage (M) the best chance of healing.

I told you about my experiences and that there were things I did not do that were recommended to me. I truly believe that in your case, you should do as you are being advised here.

There is a saying around here that waywards all read from the same script. There is no originality in anything a cheating spouse does. Their moves are really quite predictable.

I do want you to understand that your H is not in his right mind right now. He is under the influence of the same powerful brain chemicals that operate in addictions. Do not take anything he says at face value. He is "under the influence." When he is no longer under the influence, you will begin to see the return of the man you married.

Right now, for the sake of your children, you are going to have to be the grown up. Your H certainly isn't. Do NOT look to your husband to make an informed or rational choice about keeping the marriage.

They ALL say they don't love you any more. It is textbook fog-speak. That is why traditional marriage counseling will not be useful right now.

Please do not make a snap decision about keeping the marriage. Step back, put together a plan with the help of the people here, and give it some time. You will get the help you need here to heal yourself and to discover what is the best path for you.

I am really sorry you have to be here. You are stuck on a rollercoaster of emotions and nobody consulted you about whether you even wanted to be there. But even a quick divorce will not get you off the rollercoaster and heal you. You are going to have to ride it out, so please please take care and comfort and advice of the people who have lived through it.

Hugs to you!

You asked about where to post the answers to the questions about your situation. Easy. Just do it right here in your thread, in your next post! It really helps others to help you when you have all of your info together in one thread.

MF's Exposure Thread

You can see what a good, kick*ss exposure looks like ~ the A ended the day I did this.

Like your H, my FWH had been saying the A was over...for 10 months I believed him. I did not expose the first time I found out because I did not know about MB.

Please don't let this happen to you ~ expose NOW. It's torture when it goes on for 10 months.

Thanks for everyone's advise - it's been a hard day today - I am trying to absorb what you all say - when I got home from work this morning I confronted him (with out saying too much to him) I was able to get a few things off my chest (as he has been putting the blame on me for this)

Question: If I expose the A - won't he hate me and just tell me that it's over and leave (he has told me not to contact the OW because he needs to protect his job and told me that he would get a restraining order against me inorder to protect his job)

HELP!!

Yes, he will be furious, he will hate you, he will threaten to leave and maybe will. Think of it as a child in the store who does not get his way and lays on the floor screaming and yelling.

He is expecting you to "protect his A". He is going to get a restraining order against you??? This is called fog babble.

You don't contact the OW -- you contact their jobs by way of the HR department explaining that their is an A going on during working hours and company trips. I would have rather had my XH lose his job 10x than being D.

Please listen to these MB vets.

Question - what is D-day?

D-day is discovery day - the day you discover what's really going on.



Think about this? What will he tell the Judge? Your honor, I need a restraining order against my WIFE for telling everyone that I'm having an affair.

Really? What is wrong with that? You're telling the truth and fighting for your marriage. Just empty threats IMO (in my opinion).

I am not the best person to give you advice about exposure, which is why I wanted you here! However, from having read a lot of other people's stories here, after exposure there is a predictable tantrum by the wayward. They will say:

"I was going to work on the marriage, but you ruined that."
"I can't believe you would do such an immature thing!"

And similar nonsense. None of it is real. The saying is, your marriage can survive anger, but it cannot survive a continuing affair.

Your response? "That's nice, dear. Want a potato chip?"

After 2-3 weeks they calm down.

I can never figure out why wayward spouses think it's "threatening" or "dangerous" for their betrayed spouse to expose the affair. It's not like you're going out threatening violence or anything.

If he truly was worried about his job he wouldnt have had the A.

How is he going to stop you anyways? The damage has been done at that point after he finds out.

You gotta get over the he will leave me part. Hes already gone. Hes checked out. He might pay the bills a while longer but emotionally hes DONE.

If you want to save your M you HAVE to expose. Go big or go home. Since he said DO NOT inform his work you HAVE to do that. Your going to get the best bag for buck there.

He can get another job. Will have to anyways. You gotta remember if he doesnt want to put the work into the M R is going to be impossible.

So keep on the path and expose. Go big. Otherwise the OW is gonna thank you when she has your man with the fine job.

Fantie, please don't do this. It is real important to not get into fights with him. It is about as fruitful as trying to reason with a falling down drunk.


Oh yes!! He will say all of this. Just imagine what a falling down drunk says when you take the booze away! They are furious!! But don't let it bother you one bit. Your marriage can survive some temporary anger, it can't survive this affair.

When he lambasts you, just say "I am so sorry you are upset, but I felt everyone should share in the good news! Would you like a potato chip!?" Smile sweetly and then leave the room!

Whatever you do, don't BURST OUT LAUGHING when he spews his fogbabble at you. That is a lovebuster.

They all get FURIOUS! But remember what the goal is here. The goal is to SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE, not to avoid his anger at all costs. If your H doesn't get mad then you not doing enough to save your marriage.

Thanks everyone - being up my confidence and I am going to work on the list tonight - my time is very limited with a 3 and 5 year old at home.!

Keep the advice and words of wisdom coming.

THEN, after you expose the affair wide and far, CALL the OW and tell her that hell is coming. Tell her that you are still married and that you will fight for your marriage. [be sure and expose the affair to her parents and facebook friends]

THE REASON your H doesn't want you to contact her is because he has been LYING to her about something. Probably telling her you are leaving him and there is a chance for her in the future. HE IS AFRAID YOU WILL UNCOVER HIS LIES.

But that is what you must do.

First, give me your WORD that you can control your laughter when he goes hog wild at the discovery of your exposure. If you feel like you are going to BURST OUT LAUGHING at the stupid, inane things he says, then you must leave the room. And that includes smirking and giggling.

Waywards are so hilarious when you take their crackpipes away from them!

Once you expose, you will feel like the KING OF THE MOUNTAIN instead of a powerless little shivering mouse. Standing up to this abuse will give you great confidence. The key will be to not let a wacked out, addicted wayward scare you. When you interfere with the addiction of a wayward, they go nuts and try to scare you into submission. YOU MUST RESIST AT ALL COST!

you can do this, Fantie!!

Ok I will give you my word that I will leave the room.

Markos,

Because it IS "threatening" and "dangerous" the AFFAIR......God forbid if anything or anyone does something to ruin "their only chance of happiness".....

especially the betrayed spouse. So the wayward will say ANYTHING to keep exposure from happening......including stupid remarks like "getting a restaining order"....

and honestly if he would do ANYTHING to protect his job then he SHOULD have done so by not whoring around the back alleys.......

Not

WH called and asked what I told the kids - told them that he was working late - he told me that he got a hotel room - I said ok - said good night to the kids - This gives me a chance to form my list and plan into the action - I am glad that he is getting his space but i am at home taking care of the kids.

so he is with the OW tonight?

fantie, since he is with the OW tonight, I would do all your exposures tonight and in the morning. Including calling the OW's BF and telling him. This way they infidels have something to face tomorrow when they return to work.

I agree with the exposure! Don't warn him, and do it all at once. When he gets mad, say you are saving your marriage. He can get another job, trust me. You can't save the M if they work together.

Fantie, when you get a chance, look at the thread MelodyLane started, "do not burst out laughing."

I hope some others will come along and post some links to fogbabble threads. It is so incredibly predictable. And nothing he says right now is true or right.


Right now, he is insane.

Oh what a day. Well that last time I spoke with him was last night at 6pm when he told me that he got a hotel room and said goodnight to the kids. I had been up for 32 hours - so last night I just crashed.

Today I woke up and said ok this is it - the sad part is that he didn't even call the kids this morning (like he usually does on a business trip) to say good morning to them. So sad esp. when he says he has the kids best interest - ha ha. I never heard from him all day until 6:34pm he called but didn't leave a message (the kids and I were out for dinner anyway) - Came home and I had the kids call him - he didn't answer so they just said good night as a message.

Besides all that it's been a busy day. I called his mom first thing this morning and told her that the affair was not over and that he has been lieing. I encouraged her to talk to him and come to his senses. Then I called the OW's Dad and he said he was not aware of it - and I encouraged him to tell his daughter to find another job. He said he was sorry and he would see what he could do. Then I called her mother and I just got ahold of the number and she said that she didn't know that OW - which I dont' belive because the ex-boyrfirend gave me the number so I dind't say anything as I am sure she was expecting the phone call since maybe the father informed them all.

Then it was onto his 2 employees - they did they suspected it but dint' have proof - they basically said that they had lost all respect for him as a boss - and that the OW (his secretary) was running the show there - I told them that they needed to confront him to make him aware and that it would make it uncomfortable - which I knew one guy would (because he has a big mouth) -

My parents and my sister already knew - now his parents know (the full story) - her dad knows and 2 of his employees know (I didn't call of them because I dont' know them and some just started) but I told the important 2

It was interesting because they told me that they already suspected it. ANd that he had been covering up for her (I guess she calls in sick alot and he doesn't report it and still pays her for the day - which they are really pissed about) They said they didn't even know him anymore - that he's a changed guy. And of course he's been lieing - the trips that he went on for work - he was with her - and the one guy that he's been telling me that he's been doing stuff with - said he hasn't done anything with him. OH ya they all agreed that the OW saw my WH

I totally agree with you all - I have no idea who he is. It is all starting to make sense. But knowing who he was I know he will leave and want a divorce.

So now what? I have no idea if he knows if the affair was exposed - where he is - he did remove his bank account (from a side job) so I can no longer see it.

WHat is my next step????

OH ya they all agreed that the OW saw my WH
as a meal ticket.

fantie, you did great!! I would call the boyfriend tonight and bring him up to speed. Your H and the OW probably spent the night together last night didn't they?

what about a facebook exposure tonight? Did you see my post about that?

I am concerned about your bank account, though. Has your H hidden your money?

How old is the OW?

Why do I need to bring the ex-boyfriend up to speed - he has been out of the picture since he found out and has told me that he has not spoke with her.

I dind't do any FB exposures because I called his best friend (well the wife b/c we are friends) from back home - he honestly doesn't have any friends here (besides his co-workers - and I told them and they have told me that they have not done anything with him since it became uncomfortable around the office)

SO tonight at 8:34pm he called and KABOOM!! He said what the f--k are you doing? I have the MC calling me (because I called her to tell her and faxed her all the e-mails that I had found and she wanted to see him - kind of just a back up plan and since we were just there on Thursday I exposured her to it too), and he said you called her parents and told her to find another job - he said what the F--K are you doing - are you crazy? I replied that I was trying to save my marriage - he said that is not how you do it - then someone on this site told me to offer him a potatoe chip and walk out of the room to laugh - but he told me he was sitting in a F--king hotel room so I just told him when he calmed down to call me - said I love you and hung up. Then I was laughing so hard just like you all told me I would.

The guys at his work plan on confronting him tomorrow - so that will be another KABOOM!! Someone said I would feel like the King of the Mountain and I do!

The OW is his age (both 35 and have birthday either a week apart) and I am 4 years older than my WH - 39 going to be 40 n Sept.

What now????

Get some sleep. if you have exposed to everyone then there really isnt much you can do atm.

He is going to be REALLY pissed for a while. Maybe a few days. maybe 2 weeks. it varies.

Make sure you have a copy of your evidence in a safe place outside the home. If he tries to take ALL the money go to a lawyer immediatly. Especially if you are a stay at home mom. He might try to starve you into submission.

If he does come home just cook him a nice meal and let him play with the kids. Chit chat about whatever your kids do.
Just keep it simple at first. If he refers to the OM refer to her as an ADULTERESS and their friendship as and Adulterous relationship.

If he has the nads to call her in front of you dont let him.

She most likely wont leave the work you know. No reason for her too. As long as she is there working for him she is going to be an issue. Just being honest with you. If he owns the company nothing you can do. Sucks though I know.

YEEHAW!!! Great job all around. You are a dang pro at this, Fantie! And bravo to you for not bursting out laughing!!

I had thought the boyfriend was still dating her, but I guess not?

Ok, now move onto the OW's facebook page! Do you have the letter I posted?

Fantie, another thing you can do is visit the workplace tomorrow and say HELLO to the OW. The more you go up there, the more the rats will SQUIRM.

Fantie, Well done!

Once exposure is complete, Plan A your socks off. Plan A is where for a period of time you demonstrate just how fabulously you and you alone can meet your H's most important emotional needs.

There is a link to the Carrot and Stick of Plan A earlier on your thread. Study up.

And protect your finances. However it is you have to do so.

Does someone have a link to the reverse fogbabble thread handy? I think it would really help here.

The thread has been bumped for you.

Thanks everyone. Believe it or not but she is not on facebook. I have tried and tried to find her on there and on my WH's FB but she is just not on FB.

Got a good night sleep last night.

I have an idea - I also am a cake decorator - and I usually do all of the cakes for the employees at the office - and one of the guys at his office who has been very supportive and who we have had over several times for holidays (he is 50 and single - been divorced twice - both times his ex wifes cheated on him so he has been very supportive and really admired us/our family and our marriage well at one point and had been a good friend to my WH) said that he thought it was wierd that I didn't make him a cake for his b-day on 6/10 so maybe I will bake him a cake and bring it up to the office and say sorry I missed your b-day here you go and then watch them squirm.

The guys at work even told me that she started parking her car in back of the office building. That's wierd.

I plan on going to the bank this morning and removing the money that my paycheck goes into for the kids - and putting it inot the bank account that I had opened up for myself at another bank.

Thanks again - feeling stronger every minute.

Ok - thought of some questions

I read through the reverse fogbabble - awesome stuff

Therefore I should keep things to a min. Don't tell him much - like the fact that I knew he didn't go to Houston and that he was in town (found that out from the guys at work) I would just love to call him a LIAR!!

You are doing just great, Fantie. Just keep up the pressure on the affair!

And you don't need an excuse to go up there. You have a right to visit your own husband whenever you choose. I would march right up to the OW's desk and ask her "how is your affair with my husband?" Say it right out loud so everyone can hear. I would be going up there every day and and visiting her desk.

Where is your H spending the night? With the OW?

Let him know everything you know and about everyone you exposed to. Don't call him names, but just let him know you know.

And where is he sleeping? He is at her house, right? If so, I would verify he is there, take a picture of his car and then start calling people from the driveway.

Fantie, cause as much trouble as possible in their affair!

Another question - I am suppose to work at the hospital on Sat. night - do I need to find someone to watch the kids if he is still not home? or tell him he has to come home to watch the kids when I go to work?

I emailed the old boyfriend and he told me that he wanted to stay away from this [censored] mess - so that is my clue to cut him out.

A friend came to pick up our son for a playdate and while I was outside he called - so I called him back at the office phone number (I usually just call his cell) and when she (the OW) answered I just said my I please speak wiht my husband? Then when he came on I said I told him that we were outside as our son went on a playdate - so he tried to talk to our 3 yo daughter and she didn't want to talk to him. He asked when would our son be home and I said not sure, asked about daughter's camp - told him I gotta go - then he said call me on my cell phone - and I replied - I will see what I can do.

He told me he was at a hotel - probably with OW I am assuming as I know they went out to lunch together yesterday. My friend drove by her house last night - her car was in the driveway, his truck wasn't there or on any side streets - doesn't mean to say it wasn't in her garage.

Fantie, why is he not coming home? What happened here? Did I miss that part? How is he explaining this?

I wouldn't be surprised if she picks him up somewhere and then takes him to her home.

I would call the landline EVERY TIME so that skankho hears your voice.


I would ask for the evidence. Ask him for reciepts and if he pulls this tonight ask for the hotel name and address so you can call and verify this.

As his wife, you have every right to know where he is at all times.

If you have an extra key to WH's truck, have your friend drive by and hit the panic button. If the truck is in the garage, she will hear it and might get to see WH run thru the house turning on lights to see who is messing with his truck. GF

Try this site.. www.pipl.com
Put the OW name in and it will tell you what social network sites she might belong and it is free.

Good luck you are doing well in trying to save your M

He is not at the home because he said when I confronted him on MOnday morning that he needed his space - I replied ok - then he left for work and then he made the decision to get a hotel room the last 2 nights and we haven't talked much.

Gotcha! Needing "space" means "needs space" to carry on his affair. He is not staying at a hotel, he is staying with the OW. I would tell him you know this is a bullcrap story and let the OW know too.

Additionally, I would call her father again and tell him that your H is staying at her place. I am not even guessing about this, fantie. I ASSURE you this is where he is staying and EVERYONE SHOULD KNOW.

Fantie, from a strategic standpoint, I would focus all of your attention TODAY on causing as much conflict as possible in the affair. Do more exposures telling EVERYONE he is sleeping at her place and has abandoned his family for his adultery, go to the office, confront the OW, do whatever you have to do inflict blows on the affair.

You need to do this TODAY while you have the affair on the ropes. If you let up, they will simply regroup and regain power.

Your goal for the week is to get your H home and to get the OW out of that office. If you keep up the pressure you might be able to do that.

In all of this, DO NOT FIGHT WITH YOUR HUSBAND. Just be sweet and loving. Tell him you will do what it takes to save your marriage and will let every one know about his affair. No fighting, no trying to reason with a falling down drunk.

If you can get him back home and get her out of the office, then you have a chance to save this.

I would then call up Marriage Builders and get phone coaching with one of their coaches. They might be able to talk some sense into him.,

It's also possible that she has "blocked" you on FB which means that it would appear that she doesn't not exist on FB. The only other way around that is to sign up for a new account using a different name and address and friending someone who you think she may be friends with on FB. If you find her that way, immediately make a list of all of her friends and save it for exposure.

Ok so I just talked to my WH - he told me the name of the hotel he was/is staying at - he told me that he wants to see the kids -and that he has been calling them - I said that he never called at all yesterday - he told me he has the phone records - I told him to show me them - then i tried to listen - I asked him if he had asked me first if it was ok that he put me through hell before he started the affair.

He brought up the fact that I called her parents - he said they think I am some psycho - that she is a grown adult -I said well if that is the case then I know where she got her morals from. I said you have known me for 15 years and you have know her for <2 years and you are going to believe that. He kept asking me why I called her parents and I replied I am saving my marriage - he said well that is not how you do it - I replied well continuing the affair is?

He told me that when I first confronted him about the affair that he asked for his space (like his own apartment) and I said no - that isn't a way to work on our marriage - he is asking for his space again - I think he wants to get his own apartment. He told me that he hates coming home.


I also asked him if he actually went to Houston for one specific trip (while we were in MC) and he said yes - I asked him for the receipt. He said he would show me - but I doubt he will - he's says what;s the point afterwards.

I feel good that I exposed it but I also feel that everything is backfiring - He is angry as hell - I am a very direct and honest person - I don't know how I feel right now - if I want to save it or just move on - I need to know from him what his plans are?

I seem more confused then ever. Do I need to have him tell me the truth and tell him that I called his co-workers and know all the lies? I did tell him that I didn't know who he was anymore.

How should I handle this?

Fantie,

The emotional ups and downs are part of the territory. I am sorry.

His plans are to enjoy both the benefits of marriage to you and the benefits of an affair. He will not give you a direct and honest anything right now. He is not going to be the grown up here.

His anger is temporary. He wants an apartment because he wants space for his affair.

I would stop badgering him for the truth. The big truth is that he is in an affair and it is harmful to you and the children. Badgering him is a love buster.

Did you read the carrot and stick thread?

You need the RECEIPT. Tell him you will be up to his office to get the reciept. Don't allow yourself to get gaslighted, Fantie, he is lying his [censored] off. He did not stay at a hotel.
Don't let up here.



Again, another lie. I would call the parents AGAIN and ask the father to use his influence to end the affair. Offer him the evidence of the affair.


means nothing. Your H is the LAST person who can tell you how to kill an affair.



Tell him you can't stop him from getting his "space" but you know that it is really an excuse to carry on his affair.


Fantie, did you read my post above with a PLAN? You are allowing his fogbabble to distract you from your plan. He is high on the addiction of an affair and will say or do anything to make you leave him alone so he can conduct his affair.


Go down to the office and ask for the hotel receipts. Tell him there that all the employees know about the affair and the OW needs to go.

Fantie, don't let up while you have the affair on the ropes. Your H is angry for the right reasons, because you are interfering with his affair. If you want to save your marriage, you had better keep their feet to the fire!

p.s. he needs to know TODAY who has been told of the affair. If he doesn't know he has been exposed, then is was all for naught.

Nothing is backfiring.
Stop being reactive.
By that I mean, when WH gets upset, you automatically seem to become upset.
Do NOT base your PLAN A on his responses.

He is a whack-o-wayward, and thus, he is acting per script.
You must get ahold of YOURSELF, today.

WH has no plans.
He is flying by emotion-control.
Up/down/back/forth.

Have you read THE ART OF WAR thread?
I'll bump it for you.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1704953#Post1704953

One more thought, as an honest and direct person, you need to muzzle your mouth a little.
Do not relay YOUR plans, at all!
Instead, of speaking your mind right now, ask open-ended questions that might provoke WH to slip up and reveal some stuff.

And your "just move on" comment.... You are still so emotionally invested in your marriage at this time ... You have SO MUCH unfinished business .... You cannot "JUST move on".
So, drop it. It's not happening for you at this stage.

BINGO! Fantie, you need to view his rantings the same as you would the rantings of a falling down drunk. It is all meaningless. You have the upper hand in the dilemma if you will just use it.

Ignore his rantings and go forward. Cause as much trouble in the affair as possible TODAY while you have it on the ropes. He is trying to SCARE you into silence by telling you lies about the OW's parents.

They are trying desperately to regroup and shut you down.

YOU CANNOT LET THAT HAPPEN. Don't back down now.

SO he e-mails me this:
Per our conversation. Please call me when you know when the kids will be at the house. I would not like them to be babysat by anyone if I don't know. I would like the option of watching them.

My response:
I am going to pick up Caitlyn now and then we have a bunch of people coming over to swim. Why don't you come home for dinner and bring your phone log records, the receipt from the current hotel that you staying at and the receipt from your trip to Houston from 6/10.

Ha!
Love your response!

priceless -- perfect response. Love his concern for the kids wellbeing when he has been the absentee father. He will be very very angry but just smile and be pleasant. It will confuse him.

Hmmm, his request sounds almost legalistic. In Texas there is what we call the "first right of refusal" when it comes to babysitting the children of parents going through a divorce. He may have spoken with someone who advised him to set a precedent now for custody issues on down the road.

Still a good response.

That is what I was thinking - I thought he saw a lawyer himself because he also texted me saying - I need to know who is wathcing the kids while I am doing my other things.

He is coming home at 5:30 per his response from my e-mail. He said he wanted to talk.

What do I say. I tell him who I have exposed the affair too (his co-workers) and what else? What if he tells me that he wants his space - like getting an apartment? Do I tell him that I know all the lies (like it was her earring in the car that I found in March), that he didn't go to Houston, like his co-workers are uncomfortable at teh office - how do I handle our talk tonight.

Do I say come home or file for a divorce.

NEED HELP!!

Just tell him you know all about his lies and will not cooperate with any scheme to "get space." Tell him that you know he just wants space to conduct his adultery. Tell him that you have told everyone about his adultery and will continue to do so.

Bluff him about the "hotel" thing and just say, "wow, I had the OW's watched last night and heard something very different." do you have your hotel receipt to prove this?

Tell him that if this goes to divorce that you will not be "his friend" but that you will sue on grounds of adultery and have the OW subpoenaed to give oath about her adultery.

Don't ASK him if he is lying. Tell him you know he is lying. Tell him you know he lied about Houston and he lied about staying a hotel last night. He was with the OW.

If he is still talking about wanting an apartment, I suggest you take action right away to secure your finances. You said you talked to three attorneys already. It will make the affair very uncomfortable once he realizes he cannot afford an apartment.

He probably wants to talk to get a commitment from you for less support than you are entitled to. Do not go along with this.

And if he wants to talk divorce, say, "I only talk marriage with you , not divorce. If you want a divorce you will have to do that on your own."

He is going to try to get you to be "reasonable"-- in other words to compromise what is in your and your children's best interests in order to make his affair easier and more comfortable. You do not need to along with this.

Well he is here right now - he came home and I had made a lovely pB&jelly sandwich for dinner (ran late b/c we had friends over swimming) He has been civil - really cuddling up to the kids - helped me with some stuff around the house (repairs)

I am not sure how or what to do- I know he is not staying because he is still wearing his dress clothes from work - and his shoes are on. the kids are going to bed in 15 minutes and then I am assuming we'll talk.

Goal is not to say too much - let him know who I have exposed the affair too- and just be nice and polite - I feel sick to my stomach. I'll let you know how it goes?

funny, just about the time you wrote this you crossed my mind while I was driving and I sent up a little prayer on your behalf.... let us know.

Well talked - I asked him if he brought home the recipts that I requested and of course he forgot them on his desk - then we started talking - he told me that he was going to fly up to his parents house (Cape Cod) on Sunday so that he can clear his head - he kept asking me about if I was working Sat. night - I told him I have't even thought about Sat. I was just trying to get through each day -

Then he told me he wanted to get an apt. and I said that I would not support that so that he could carry on his affair. He was so all over the map - I just smiled and tried to listen.

He was very upset when I told him that I spoke with his employees - he said we are done at that point.

He told me that he was seeing a lawyer tomorrow - so that he knew what his rights were. I said good idea - knowing that he was the cheater that he is the one who will have to pay.

My head is spining - I am heading to bed.

Be prepared for fake-making-nice.

Once he finds out he is sc****d, he will attempt to make nice and get you to agree to things.

I would put on a pretty dress and go pick them up at his office. Say hi to OW!! I would also verify his whereabouts on Sunday and enlist his parents to help your cause.

You are doing great, Fantie!

I can easily find out where he is going because he is using air miles to fly up there. I feel like if I call his parents that I am pushing them - they has told them that he can't work on his marriage while involved with another women - and that marriage has it's up and down's and you have to work through them and he would lose alot.

I am also going to call his best friend (who I exposed it to) and have him talk to him while he is up there.

I also told him that I would rather him lose his job and work at Home Depot then to lose his family.

Then why not expose him to his employer? Best way to get one of them out of the situation.

You said he was the boss but dont know if he was the owner. If there is an owner most likely they will toss out the secretary rather than the money maker. Especially if he is a good worker.

YEG is right on that one. Besides it is far easier to hire a new assistant, and there are liability issues and sexual harassment issues in allowing them to continue working together.

Expose to the employer. Trust me, BTDT. To recover the marriage, he is going to have to leave that job anyway. The OW is there, and the staff knows what he did - no respect.

He called the kids to say good morning to them at 8:29am - haven't talked to him since - I know that he had an appt. this morning with a lawyer - so I am hoping that woke some sense into him - all that he will lose - He e-mailed me about our airlines miles at 4pm - then he called at 6:30pm to say good night to the kids.

He asked if he could come and see the kids on Friday - I told him that that i was concerned. FOr example he saw them last night but then he wasn't here when they woke up (which they are used to)- I said that even though they are young (ages 3 1/2 & 5 - only 18 months apart) they know something is up - mom's crying - dad is not here in the morning and my son was very aggressive today. He aggreed. I said what your going to come see them, then leave, then come back for t-ball on Sat. then watch them that night while I go to work - then leave on Sunday for your parents for a week. He said that he thought it would be better if we told them - Daddy has to go back to work tonight but will be back in time for t-ball. Then he will tell the kids he is off on a business trip.

I think it is really good that he is going up to his parents house. His best friend up there can't believe what he has done and I am hoping that they (his parents and BF) will pull him out of the fog.

When he returns I want to hear what he has to say. I think he has a lot of thinking to do esp. since he met with a lawyer and hopefully realized he is screwed. What if he wants to get his own place (which I do not know how we can afford) - he mentioned it to me last night and I told him that I would not support that beacuse I know that it would only be to carry on his affair. If he does then what - I can't stop him from doing that - do I file for divorce? I don't want to be left in limbo while he has his own place.

What is the next step once he returns?

I would find out where he is going this weekend. He is doing alot of lying about his whereabouts.

He is at a hotel - which I called last night and spoke to him - not sure about tomorrow night - Sat. night he will be at the house - which I informed him of that it will be watched (to make sure the OW doesn't come over) and Sunday he leaves.

What if he wants to get his own place (which I do not know how we can afford) - he mentioned it to me last night and I told him that I would not support that beacuse I know that it would only be to carry on his affair. If he does then what - I can't stop him from doing that - do I file for divorce? I don't want to be left in limbo while he has his own place.

What is the next step once he returns?

Fantie, I assure you he is spending his nights with the OW. If you don't believe me, drive to the hotel.

fant, he is seeing the OW but now they are just hiding it better. Don't be surprised and this is regular script behavior for the wayward.

If your H still talks about getting an apartment (code for living out his fantasy), tell him that it will be too expensive for him. Offer (but not follow through) for YOU to rent an inexpensive room or you live with a family member and he can stay with the kids. You will make arrangements to see the children a few nights a week but need to find a job so he will be with them mostly. This will be your own reverse fog babble. Say it will give both of you time apart to see what you BOTH want.

Let him stew that over for a day or so.

Fantie,

I wonder if OW is going to travel with him this weekend-- take her to meet the family as a ploy to try to normalize the affair in their minds. Pretty typical wayward to try to get the family to believe the affair is making them happy, so it must be ok; after all, who doesn't want their child to be happy?

Has best friend or parents confirmed that your H is actually going?

Uh, why would she EVER leave the house?

Fanti, Dr. Harley strongly recommends telling the children the truth in an age-appropriate way. They KNOW something is up and they are probably confused. Lying to them that Daddy is going on a business trip, etc. is the worst thing you can do.

The BEST thing you can do is to tell them that Daddy has a girlfriend and married people aren't supposed to have girlfriends or boyfriends and that Mommy is sad because of what is going on. Don't sugarcoat it and whatever you do, don't agree to sit down together and spin some story to your children. They already KNOW.

Hopefully, ML will copy you with the relevant articles about this.

Fantie, PM is right. It just teaches kids dishonesty to lie for parents and whitewash the truth. The 5 yr old is old enough to understand the concept of adultery so I would tell him. He will be more screwed up by telling him lies and poison.

Hi Karma, I said just say she will move out (but not follow through) to dampen the idea of being free from all responsibility and his kids.

These waywards just want to be "free", and it will throw cold water on his plan to heat up the A.

tj, Melody, I hope you don't mind, I stole some of your awesome exposure posts from this thread and posted them to another poster ~ obr. /tj

Hope you are doing OK today, Fanti ~ I am following your story along. The only thing I think I was wondering was if you ended up confronting OW or going into the workplace ~ I would definitely follow through on that advice. It was very effective on my sister's OW. Maybe bring a friend or family member along with you for support and to give her some dirty looks (that's what we did).

Update - I am assumng he saw lawyer on 6/24 - he didn't come home that night or didn't call much - Friday he called the the kids in the morning. I talked to him a couple of times throughout the day (told him I signed up the kids for camp - the week that we were suppose to go on vacation and that I took out $120 to pay for it) I also started a file and left it on the counter so I could put all the reciepts in it (so that if his lawyer told him anything about money - so he knows that I am not spending the money any other way than allocating it as we had budgeted (groceries etc)

He forwarded me his interary of his flight back home.He came home that Friday night had supper - we put the kids to bed - I asked him if he was going alone and he said yes (but I can take that as a lie) I can easily visit or call the office next week and see if she is working. Or call one of the guys that I informed. Knowing his parents I know that they would not allow him to bring her up there.

He did tell me that he spoke with one of the guys I told at his office. I called that guy up (because we were all friends outside of his work) after he left - he told me that my WH apolgized for what happened and that it would be strictly business at the office. But what about after work right?

He is coming home this morning - to spend the day with the kids - I have to work tongiht at the hospital - so he will stay here and I have informed him that the house will be watched. Then he will watch the kids while I sleep in the morning and then he will leave on his trip back home.

I also typed him a letter to send to him while he is on the plane - this is what I wrote - WHat are your thoughts or suggestons?


I am really glad that you are getting away to clear your head. It�s been a roller coaster ride for us. I am writing to you from my heart and with sincere honesty in hopes to save our marriage and our family.

I have known you for 15 years and we will have been married for 9 years next month. It saddens me that we are in this situation. I never dreamed that we would be. Everything that I have done recently is in effort to save our marriage. I love you with all my heart and know that you are my soul mate. It's not just the family I want, but I want us back and I want us to be happy again like we once were. Marriage has it's ups and downs and hopefully we will be able to work through this, which is what I want. We both have our faults, and no marriage is perfect. We have been through so much together over the years and have gone through so much to create our family that it is worth every effort to save it and I would hate to see it end.

This said, after all that has happened, I am sure that you understand the need for some parameters. There are two things that I feel are critical to our recovery. First of all, you can not be in a situation that involves seeing her every day. One of you needs to make a change. Secondly, you need to live at home. Living in two different places does not bring us closer and does not help us earn each other's trust again. Even though I am making these requirements, I want you to know that I will relocate anywhere to save our marriage. Maybe it is time for us to move closer to friends and family?


Thanks for listening. I just wanted to lay everything on the table so that you can really sort things out this week.

Fantie, This almost sounds like a plan B letter. Is that what you intend? Plan B is when, after a short period of plan A, you no longer allow the wayward access to you in order to protect your emotions.

If it is just a "here's where I stand" letter, I think you might want to tighten up your language about seeing the other woman. He needs to completely end all contact with her for the rest of his life and return home. And you are more than ready and willing to move anywhere in order to make that happen.

Can someone summarize plan A and plan B. Maybe I am getting them mixed up.

Thanks

Here is the article from this website:

What Are Plan A and Plan B?

by Willard F. Harley, Jr., Ph.D.


Dear Dr. Harley,

My husband and I have separated and are trying to work our way back together again. We have found the information in your web site to be very helpful in reaching that goal. But some of the letters in your forum comment about "Plan A" and "Plan B" regarding marital separation. We have searched your site and don't find an explanation of what those plans are. Could you refer me to material that would give me that information?

C.H.

Dear C.H.,

I suggest plan A and plan B to couples who are struggling with infidelity. From your letter, it's not clear to me that infidelity is the issue that led to your separation, and so these two plans may not be relevant to your situation. But I will explain plan A and plan B to you anyway, and then also address the pros and cons of marital separation when infidelity is not the issue.

Infidelity is one of the most thoughtless, dishonest and cruel acts of self-indulgence imaginable. And yet, for over 30 years betrayed spouses have told me they are willing to reconcile if I can help them find a way to restore love to their marriage, help them overcome the resentment they feel, and provide assurance that it won't happen again. With these conditions in mind, I have created a strategy that has helped thousands of couples reconcile.

My overall plan for marital recovery after an affair has three basic stages. The first stage separates the unfaithful spouse and the lover; the second stage maintains that separation through the period of emotional withdrawal experienced by the unfaithful spouse who is addicted to the lover; and the third stage recovers love between spouses, eliminates resentment of the betrayed spouse, and protects the marriage against future affairs. The goals of the third stage are achieved by following Four Rules for a Successful Marriage: Care, Protection, Honesty and Time).

With this background, we're ready to talk about Plan A and plan B. These two plans are used in the first stage of marital recovery to separate the unfaithful spouse from the lover. They are alternative ways to deal with this objective and are both described in my book, "Surviving an Affair" (pages 75-83).

My experience helping couples recover from infidelity has taught me that any contact between the unfaithful spouse and the lover ruins reconciliation. Even casual contact prevents completion of withdrawal from the addiction of an affair. Since an affair is usually an addiction, the only way to fully recover is to permanently separate the unfaithful spouse (the addict) from the lover (the source of the addiction). But even in the very few cases when an affair is not an addiction, total separation of the spouse and lover is a necessary act of consideration for the feelings of the betrayed spouse. It's the very least a wayward spouse can do to compensate for the suffering caused by the affair. Continued contact with a lover simply perpetuates the suffering of the betrayed spouse indefinitely.

It's been my experience that without total separation, mutual love cannot be restored, resentment cannot be overcome and protection from the threat of another affair cannot be guaranteed. So when I counsel couples who want to reconcile after an affair, I insist on total separation of the unfaithful spouse and the lover with extraordinary precautions to guarantee that they never see or talk to each other again.

But what can a betrayed spouse do when the unfaithful spouse refuses to totally separate from the lover? That's where plan A and plan B come to the rescue.

Let me quote from "Surviving an Affair:"

You may think that after a spouse willfully chooses a lover (over the betrayed spouse), there would be no hope for marital reconciliation, but that's not true. While there is no hope for reconciliation when the affair is underway, as soon as the affair is ended, reconciliation is definitely possible. And almost all affairs end sooner than most people think they will.

But for the betrayed spouse, waiting for the affair to end seems like an eternity. The wayward spouse can't seem to make up his or her mind -- one moment committing to the marriage and the next moment committing to the lover. To help a betrayed spouse survive that painful period of vacillation -- the time it takes for an affair to die a natural death -- I recommend two plans. If the first plan (plan A) is unsuccessful in separating the wayward spouse from the lover, the second plan (plan B) is followed until the affair is ended. This sequence -- plan A followed by plan B -- represents the most sensible approach to handling a wayward spouse's inability to decide between the lover and the betrayed spouse.

So, then, what is plan A and plan B?

Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespect, and demands. These three Love Busters not only ruin any effort to reach a negotiated settlement, but they also make the betrayed spouse much less attractive to the wayward spouse. Instead of encouraging total separation from the lover, the anger, disrespect and demands of the betrayed spouse make the lover appear to be the only one who truly cares about the wayward spouse. They literally throw the wayward spouse into the arms of the lover.

On the other hand, if the betrayed spouse approaches the wayward spouse with respect and thoughtfulness, the cruelty and self-indulgence of the affair is much easier for the wayward spouse to understand. And once the wayward spouse's mistake is acknowledged, it's much easier for him or her to take the first step toward recovery by agreeing to never see or talk to the lover again.

In these negotiations for total separation, the causes of the affair should be addressed. Since one of these causes is usually unfulfilled emotional needs, the betrayed spouse should express a willingness to meet those needs after the affair has ended. Another common cause is a wayward spouse's failure to take the betrayed spouse's feelings into account. The betrayed spouse's inconsiderate behavior sometimes leads the wayward spouse to believe that he or she has the right to return thoughtlessness with thoughtlessness by having an affair. Willingness of the betrayed spouse to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement goes a long way toward resolving the issue of thoughtlessness.

A third possible cause of an affair is a lifestyle where spouses spend much of their leisure time apart from each other, and form leisure-time friendships with those of the opposite sex. A plan to avoid being away from each other overnight and making each other favorite leisure-time companions goes a long way toward creating a passionate marriage that is essentially affair-proof.

In general, a betrayed spouse's effort to encourage the wayward spouse to end the affair should address all the root causes of the affair, and offer a solid plan for marital recovery. It should not be one-sided, however. The plan should make the wayward spouse and the betrayed spouse equally responsible for following the overall plan.

But plan A, an effort to end the affair with thoughtfulness and care, doesn't always work. In many cases a wayward spouse is so trapped by the addiction that he or she does not have the will-power to do the right thing. Once in a while the fog lifts and the cruelty and tragedy of the affair hits the wayward spouse right between the eyes. In a moment of grief and guilt, he or she promises to end it. But then the pain of withdrawal symptoms often brings back the fog with all its excuses and rationalization, and the affair is on again.

Sometimes a wayward spouse settles into a routine of having his or her cake and eating it too. In an effort to win the wayward spouse back, the betrayed spouse meets emotional needs that the lover cannot meet, while the lover meets emotional needs that the betrayed spouse has not learned to meet. While this competition is excruciatingly painful to the betrayed spouse, and the lover as well, the wayward spouse basks in the warmth of being loved and cared for by two people, with no real motivation to choose one over the other.

So, to avoid an indefinite period of suffering while a wayward spouse vacillates between spouse and lover, and to avoid rewarding the selfish behavior of having needs met by both spouse and lover, if plan A does not work within a reasonable period of time, I recommend plan B.

Plan B is for the betrayed spouse to avoid all contact with the wayward spouse until the affair has completely ended and the wayward spouse has agreed to my plan for recovery. In many cases, once an affair has ended, a betrayed spouse makes the mistake of taking the wayward spouse back before an agreement is made regarding marital recovery. This leads to a return to all the conditions that made the affair possible -- love is not restored, resentment is not overcome, and there is a very great risk for another affair. Without agreement and subsequent implementation of a plan for recovery, the betrayed spouse is better off continuing with plan B.

Since plan B (and plan A, for that matter), is extremely stressful for the betrayed spouse, I usually recommend that he or she ask a physician to prescribe anti-depressant medication to be taken throughout the crisis. This not only greatly reduces the suffering of the betrayed spouse, but it also helps keep a clear head at a time when patience and wise decisions are crucial. Anti-depressant medication does not numb the betrayed spouse to the crisis, it actually helps raise him or her above emotional reactions that would otherwise prevent clear-headed thinking. Why suffer and and make poor choices when anti-depressant medication can help ease your pain and improve your concentration in this time of unprecedented crisis?

While I have seen remarkable success by people using plan A and plan B, success is by no means guaranteed. The problem with Plan B is that the unfaithful spouse may not return, nor agree to the plan for recovery, even after the affair has ended. Separation in marriage is always risky because, "out of sight, out of mind." Unless plan A leaves the wayward s pouse with the impression that returning home is an attractive choice, separation can become permanent. So before implementing plan B, you want to be sure that the last thing your spouse remembers about you is the care and thoughtfulness you offered in plan A. That way, the separation can help create, "absence makes the heart grow fonder."

As it turns out, most affairs end within six months of their seeing the light of day (being revealed to their family and friends), and almost all affairs end without leading to marriage. Even those few that end in marriage have only a 25% rate of success. That's because affairs are based on dishonesty and thoughtlessness for the feelings of others. That same dishonesty and thoughtlessness eventually turns on the lovers themselves, and the affair is destroyed by those same flaws that made it possible in the first place. What drives affairs is passion, not commitment, and once the passion wanes, there is nothing to help the lovers restore their passion. Marriage, on the other hand, especially with children, has many factors that motivate couples to restore their passion for each other after passion has waned. So when passion is gone from an affair, a wayward spouse is usually motivated to return to the betrayed spouse by all of these other factors. For most, it's a logical choice.

But what about marital separation when an affair is not the issue. In your letter, you did not indicate why you had separated. It may have been for reasons other than infidelity.

In general, I recommend separation when at least one spouse cannot control destructive behavior. An ongoing affair, of course, is one of those situations. Hence, plan B. But other situations such as physical and verbal abuse, where one spouse's mental or physical safety is as risk, are also grounds for separation. As in the case of infidelity, if one spouse is abusive, I often recommend plan A first, where, through negotiation (without anger, disrespect or demands), an attempt is made to overcome the abuse without separating.

But in some cases, the safety risks are so great that plan B should be implemented immediately, with no time for plan A. In these cases, treatment for the abusive habit must take place during separation, and some evidence must exist that the risk has been greatly reduced, or completely eliminated, before the spouses should return to each other. Then, after being together again, the formerly abusive spouse should be held accountable by others for his or her behavior to assure the other spouse's safety.

In other cases, such as annoying behavior or failure to meet important emotional needs, where thoughtlessness does not reach the level of physical or mental abuse, plan A should be given quite a bit of time and effort before resorting to plan B. Remember, plan A is negotiating (without anger, disrespect or demands) to eliminate the annoying behavior or improve the meeting of emotional needs. A blanket agreement between spouses to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement goes a long way toward eliminating these thoughtless acts, and can also help couples learn to meet each other's needs with enthusiasm. But without that policy, couples often find that they cannot get anywhere with each other through negotiation, and sometimes separation can eventually lead to mutual recognition that they need the Policy of Joint Agreement to help them resolve conflicts.

But, as I mentioned earlier, the risks of separation are great. It should be used only as a last resort to help resolve a fatal flaw in marriage. Once separated, couples often never do reconcile, remaining separated for life, or they eventually divorce. A fact unknown to many is that fifteen to twenty percent of all married couples end their lives permanently separated. These, who are not included in divorce statistics, usually feel that they should not legally divorce for religious reasons. But for most practical purposes, they are as divorced as those legally divorced. Their separation did not create the opportunity for reconciliation, but rather, created an even higher barrier between spouses.

So whenever spouses separate, I usually encourage a plan that moves them toward eventual reconciliation. From your letter, it sounds as if you are moving in that direction, and you simply need to know when it would be the right time to move back together. And you may want to know more about full marital recovery after you have ended your separation.

The four rules to recovery that I recommend after an affair are marital rules that every couple should be following. So they should form the basis for any plan for recovery after a separation. Since the four rules cover every conceivable problem that married couples face, they would address the issue that led to your separation. If you were to follow these four rules as part of your plan for recovery, I guarantee you that you will not only eliminate the problems that led you to separate, but you will also resolve many other conflicts that have prevented you from having a successful marriage.

I encourage you and your husband to make a commitment to follow the Four Rules for a Successful Marriage: Care, Protection, Honesty and Time, and once the commitment is made, end your separation and begin a marriage that will last a lifetime.

Thanks

Update - he came home on Sat. morning and was here until 2pm on Sunday. He was very nice, and polie and even laughed with us. I went to work Sat. night and he even called me to say goodnight that night. My neighbor looked throughout the night (up and down the street) and no unusal car was on our street.

A friend of mine sent him an e-mail saying stuff she wanted to say to him about how her hubby could write a list a mile long on reasons to leave her and how he had such family valuves - I never in a million years thought that he would answer her back and he did.

It seems like he is somewhat back to his old self but I have no idea if he is just buttery me up or did he pull his head out of his a-s? He is at his parents, and i drove by the office today and her car was there. Took down her license plate number.

i did found something out that was distrubing. I found her on my space and her user name which I googled and found out that 4 years ago she posted something on a site that said she was bi-polar and had borderline personality disorder. This freaked me out - no way is my kids ever coming near her. I wonder if he knows this - but I sent the link to our friends up there and I know that they will do the job to tell him.

He gets back on Thrusday evening.

Fantie, How are you feeling?

Confused - apprehensive, a friend pointed out to me maybe why he is being so polite is because the OW broke it off with him, because her daddy pays the bills and the father confronted her and the father told her to break it off.

He is going out with our mutual friends in his home town tonight. they know about the affair and were appealed what he has done and they plan to confront him and report back to me. He did tell me that he was going out with them tonight - was he in his fog and didn't remember that I told him that I told them.

How do i know if she broke it off with him, and that is the reason why he is being so nice?

You might not know immediately. Just continue to watch and listen and it will soon be clear. Trust nothing from your H.

Oh man, I am tired - where's my break? He was at a hotel last week and this week he is up at his parents house in the North East (confirmed that the OW is not with him). When he called tonight to say goodnight to the kids he asked if I worked Sat. night because he wanted to change his flight from Thursday to Sat. I am thinking, well I am sure glad that you got to get away - I am here, have been here taking care of the kids, the house, the laundry etc. Where is my break?

He went out last night with his BF up there. His wife reported back to me today that they were out for 6 hours and talked - my WH told his friend that it was a mistake to have the affair and he should have handled our problems differently. The OW was not talked about much - and he didn't tell his friend what his plans were for the future. THe wife of my WH friend tells me all - they are all going to get together and the other wife (my friend) will find out what is really going on. As we know men don't talk - when she asked what was said her hubby was like yes he told me about the affair - and she was like you were with him for 6 hours - what else - but men can't chat or repeat like women can.

I feel like the time apart is making me grow distant from him. I could easily go out and if a guy payed attention to me it would make my night - I am loney and wanting/needing that connection.

I feel like he is running away from the problems and doesn't want to deal with it.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

The obliviousness to you exhaustion is part of the package. It is all about him right now.

What did you tell him about changing his flight? If you haven't responded this might be the time for some gentle honesty.

"I am exhausted from the last two weeks and you are needed at home with your children. Take Friday off from work and spend the weekend with your family. This time apart is putting me in a bad place."

And Do NOT under any circumstance give in to the temptation to go out and find some attention for yourself.

Thanks. That is a good suggestion. When he calls this morning I will mention that.

Well he is going to stay until Sat. now. When does it stop being about him and about our marriage? Things were not that bad and I was not that bad of a wife/person for all of this to happen.

Do I just sit patiently and wait? That is really hard for me to do. I am starting to feel resentment towards them that he has tripled my workload and I have been with the kids for the past 2 weeks (probably longer since he has been so wrapped up in the affair)

((((Fantie)))

Hi Fantie,
welcome to MB, so sorry you have to be here, but I can say you are in the right place. I've just read thru your thread for the first time and have some thoughts, they are a bit out of order, but possibly helpful

First of all for your exposure! It was beautiful Isnt it funny how almost 100% of waywards get so angry about the BS sharing the news about their new found love. If it was so lovely, forged in the stars, blessed by God..well them wouldnt they just love to have the whole world share in their joy??? Nope, just rage and tantrums.

My DH moved out for about 6 months, so do not be too concerned about that right now. Also please note a WH is well known for turning on a dime. He might be wonderful today, and hell on earth tommorrow. No matter what Fantie stays the same. Warm, loving and caring. You see, in his mind he will have made you out to be some heartless, cold monster, in order to justify to himself his 'right' to his affair By doing a solid plan A you cause conflict because you are not reacting the way his cold monster would, your actually someone very nice that he wants to be with.

I am wondering, could you specify a bit what your plan A is? Common top EN's for men are Admiration, physically attractive spouse, sexual fulfilment and domestic support.
Generally our recommendation for a BW in plan A is to always look gorgeous and goddess like when around the WH (and the OP too, it gives you a bit of a boost) make the home a warm and welcoming place, tidy with his favourite foods either cooking or ready to go. Flirt a little but be subtle, and try to find things you can complement him on. You can look into the marital history if he isnt doing anything nice now -waywards dont seem to notice that its old stuff your saying.

Well my plan A was showing him all the changes I said I would do and was doing. I was e-mailing him and at the end saying I love you - giving him a hug here and there - made nice dinners - changed my shift at the hospital from Sat. nights to Wed. nights - But he told me that all of that was over kill for him -

So how did you handle your husband leaving for 6 months? I really don't want that option because I would feel like he is carrying on the affair still and leaving me wondering what is going on.

Today's been a hard day - I have so many emotions - up and down - he never called the kids last night but I found out that he was golfing with his buddy - I feel like he is running away and not dealing with this. I hear bits and pieces from friends and I analyze everything (I am a Virgo) - I feel like my heart is going to break.

One thing I am struggling with is why is it so hard - you have a BS telling you that she wants to make us and the family work - and that she loves you and wants that connection back with the WH - I want him to be jumping through hoops and say YES!

Any advice or suggestions would be awesome!

Hi Fantie,

You've done a great job so far and you've been guided with really good advice.

It is all so very frustrating isn't it. The more that we expect, the more frustrating it is.
The trick to squashing frustration, is realizing that you can't control what your WH does.

You CAN influence the A environment and make is as difficult as humanly possible for this A to carry on.

As was already suggested by Mel and I think SusieQ, make a visit to this POSOW (piece of sh*te OW),
and tell her that you are not going anywhere and that you intend to stay M'd.
There is no reason that you should not do this. Let her know where you stand.
Be sure to look smokin' hot when you do this. Don't sit, stand above her if she is sitting.

The up and down emotions ....... yup, all part of this horrific mess. It does get better, really.
You'll find too, that your emotions change minute by minute.
You'll question yourself, remember that WH's decision to have an A, is not your doing.
It was his choice to cross that line. There are always other options when dealing with a weak M, other than adultery.

So, this time while he is gone, get yourself together, as best you can with 2 little ones.

Keep reading here, know Plan A off by heart.
Scotland's thread, Installed a keylogger, comes to mind as a good one to read.
She managed a pretty good Plan A.

Remember that one of the goals of Plan A,

is to make WH see that returning to his M and family,

is a better choice than staying with POSOW.

Good luck, and hang in there, it's not over yet, not by a long shot.

You can do this, you really can.

Another thought,

he is with his parents and friends right now, so they likely are keeping a good eye on him.

Send him some sweet text messages ...... nothing over the top that would make him question your sincerity of the message.

The goal is for you to be in his head, not OW.

I would prolly not do the hugging thing. While your coming from a intimacy point of view, to him your an annoying person he doesn't like very much and we all know how unpleasant it is to be hugged by someone we don't like.

How did I handle the being left? Weeelll, I went a bit insane at first, MB helped a lot there, as did having an actual PLAN instead of just constantly wondering what to do!

I was fortunately in a position that I had some very good people who were willing to just be with me and listen in my bad moments. I started IC, which for me was a literal life saver, but YMMV.
I also LISTENED to what Flick had to say about what he didn't like about me. I think it was Believer who told me to really listen, and to not just disregard everything he said as being untrue, to look and see if there was a kernel of true in his words. At that time Flick was saying I was 'unfriendly' and 'not fun'

I really reached out to people and made an enormous effort to be friendly. Funny thing is that now he complains about how I have a ton of mates in comparison to him

I also took somebody else's advice and worked on ME. What could I offer that made me more fun and attractive to be with than PQ (his OW).

I took up a few new interests including learning to ride a motorcycle and I still love my LilHonda.I got a SCUBA license (love it, love it, love it!)I got more involved with my church. I did some thing's I had always wanted to do like getting my ears pierced and a tattoo that I hadn't been able to do when Flick was at home, after all I have total freedom to do as I choose as a single person, right?

I coloured my hair, had some laser hair removal, bought some new clothes (well had to do that, I lost so much weight) bought some very sexy underwear, and generally spoilt myself.
Basically I built myself a life that even if it didn't attract Flick home, would make me someone interesting should a time come when I would want or need to look for a new partner. Fortunately I didn't have to.

Oh yes, I also took Flick overseas on a family holiday and messed with PQ while we were there

thanks everyone for all your help. On Thursday I asked him on the phone if he had time to think and if he came to any conclusions. He said yes, that we would talk when he came home. I asked him what his plans were - he said he was planning on coming to the house - and then I said then what - he said where was he suppose to go we had no money.

Then I came home from work yesterday to find out that he became friends with her on facebook. I was like stick the knife further into my heart. She must have just signed up on FB. So I called him and said that I need to know what his plans were before he came home. I have been so sick to my stomach over this. Then he told me that he was going to get his own place - I lost it (my mistake) then I told him that I found out that she was bi-polar and had borderline personality disorder and that I will make sure that our kids were protected - he keeps telling me that it isn't about the affair - then he was telling me that I am putting demands on him - which he hates - then he told me that he became friends with her on facebook to see how closely I was watching him - which I do not believe for one second - he is all over the map - he told me that while he was back home he had been looking at houses because I said I would relocate - but then I heard that he told his friend that he couldn't move back home due to jobs - he is all bouncy all over the place.

He is suppose to fly back today and I told him not to come to the house - by the time his flight arrived back the kids would be in bed already - told him to call on Sunday -

He won't tell me that he wants a divorce n

I guess am I missing something? What is my plan suppose to be? I tried showing him how much I love him - showering him with nice meals, trying to listen, looking good -

Could someone help me with a plan.

It's hard for me to get on this site and read all the other links/posts because I have 2 little ones (5 and 3) who demand alot/ALL of my attention.

Thanks

Could someone tell me if there is a way to find out if he is spying on my computer?

If he is determined to get his own apartment - how do I go about him wanting to see the kids - do I let him come over whenever he wants? What are the rules? Our kids are ages 3 and 5.

He just got back into town and asked if he could come over first thing in the morning and I told him that we had to talk first - he got mad and hung up on me.

NEED HELP.

Until you are in Plan B, you will do the best you can to keep up your Plan A. That means that he will see the kids as often as possible. Not necessarily on HIS timetable though. You make plans.

NO RELATIONSHIP TALK IN PLAN A. You need to not do that. You will tell him that you will not accept a marriage where he has a girlfriend. You WILL tell him that you will NOT be with him forever while he is with someone else. But what you have to do right now is focus on your Plan A. BE the BEST wife and mother YOU can be.

So, meet his ENs and don't commit any LBs. Everything else is in accordance with your PLAN.

Ok so let him come over and play happy wife - show him I can meet his emotional needs. He did send me this e-mail

you cannot hold the kids as a leverage. its not fair to them. You are continuing to dictate what will happen. i will be by the house in the morning. i will do things around the house as well and spend the day with them. if you want to go somewhere, by all means you can. if you want to go somewhere together with them that is fine as well. we will find some time to discuss what we are going to do even if it is after they go to bed tomorrow night. i am tired and am going to bed early tonight. i will see you in the morning.

How should I respond?

Fantie, do you want him to move back home? I am confused about why you told him not to come to the house. It is hard to do a good plan A when he is not at home. JMHO, but I think you would be better off with him back at home while you plan A.

There is a spying 101 thread. If he is spying on your computer he is likely doing it with a keylogger, which are tricky to detect.

It usually (not always) takes some time to bust up an affair. The wayward is going to lie. About everything. Plan A is to convince him that you are a more attractive option than the affair.

After a few weeks of this, you may need to think about Plan B. But Pepperband's words to you above were very wise, I think. I am concerned for you, responsible for those young children 24/7 with such turmoil going on in your marriage.

Someone posted on this thread that we/I should tell the kids - that daddy has a girlfriend and that is not allowed when you are married - should I let him know that - he is so concerned about what I have told the kids - because last night my 3 year old told him Mommy was sad.

You let him come over and you be your most spectacular self. You really need to bite your tongue off all day long until you get some time to talk, and then you need to try really really hard to keep the conversation focused.

We all know how hurt and angry you are, how hard it is to sleep and eat properly, how much emotional pain there is. This is a terrible time. But you are going to have to ride the rollercoaster for a while.

You do not need his permission to tell your children the truth. I think it is a mistake to agree to lie to them or to negotiate with a wayward what you should tell them. You are the sane one right now.

Of course I would love him to come home - I was just so mad yesterday - I plan on telling him to come home and sleep in our spare room -

Well he came over at 7:45am and of course he came in as the Disneyland Dad - gave the kids t-shirts and Toy Story 3 dolls and the kids were all over that.

I am looking good and trying to bit my tongue - it's going to be a long day.

When the kids go to bed how or what should I say? I know to tell him that I will only talk him marriage with you and not divorce - should I just sit and listen -

Need advice on what to talk about.

Thanks

I think it is a good idea to let him talk and you mostly listen. Don't try to "negotiate" anything, he is not a rational negotiator right now.

This is just ONE DAY. There are many more days in your life. You will not likely resolve or fix anything in this one day. Your best use of the day is to be as fabulous as you would try to be if you were newly dating this guy.

Fantie, I don't think anyone has talked to you yet about withdrawal. If and when he actually breaks it off and no longer has contact with OW, he is going to go through at least a few weeks of withdrawal and be angry, mean and nasty. It will pass. It is just like drug withdrawal.

This is going to be a long ride, no matter what happens to your marriage. It is going to be at least a couple of years before you truly feel healed and back to normal.

It is a marathon, not a sprint. Our job here is to help you get through this in as healthy a way as possible.

Thanks - we have chatted a few times when the kids have been busy doing other stuff- he told me that he hasn't had any contact with her (other than work) and he told me that he loves her - ugh! and he is getting his own place - he's been nice and civil today which puts my guard up - he feels like he needs his own place because we need to learn how to talk and treat each other - and then maybe we can work on our marriage - he said we should move forwarded with selling the house etc.

my heart is sinking! It hurts so much. What am I to do now?

HELP!!!!!!!

Fence-sitting. Cake-eating.

"WE need to learn how to talk and treat each other"

That is what you do under ONE ROOF! He wants to have the best of both worlds.

Fantie, don't agree to sell the house.

" I love this house, this is where my family is staying. Wasn't it great weather today, oh sheesh, look at those windows, must get at them tomorrow ........"

Fantie, don't make it easy for him to financially move out and shack up with OW.

He is still in contact with her. The A is active.

Everything he is saying is hogwash, treat it as such.

I'm not familiar with the threads over here, posters who have Plan A'd then gone to Plan B. Like I said, Scotland's is the one that I'm most familiar with.

Please read that thread.

She Plan A'd and I believe is still in Plan B. ???
Point being, there is great advice on that thread, that you can use toward your own sitch.

It sounds like you are likely heading towards Plan B. Even if you aren't, you should be making plans for Plan B.
You will find this info on Scotland's thread also.
Plan A must be spectacular prior to Plan B. (Plan B means NC between you and WH, therefore his last impression of you
needs to be of the BEST you)

Not only am I rusty, my Plan B was not exactly the MB way, so I'm weak at that.

Well we talked for about 2 hours - feel like I got alot accomplished - earlier today he told me to go see a lawyer and to put the house on the market - and after our conversation I was like lets' give it 3 months - before we decide anything. I tried my best to convince him to stay at the house and live upstairs in our space room.

He told me that he called his boss and told him about the affair and that he was getting away - his boss told him to quit the affair (to end it or his job will be at risk which I really think scared him because he needs to support those kids)

I made him show me that his gmail account (the one he used with her) was closed - is there a way of checking out - I did create a fake name and send him an e-mail but before it was bounced back to me but it was really still open (I think he rejected e-mails from anyone)

He's off tomorrow and said he will come by in the afternoon after the kids get out of camp. We had a great day today - with a few exception - had fun doing fireworks with the kids.

I told him that he needed to go get tested for STD"s and he said get the paperwork and he'll go (not that it has happened since finding out)

He says that he has lost himself and wants to find himself again and that we need to start out as friends and build from there.

How am I doing. Definately going to read Scottie's thread.

As always thanks for all your help - and I'll take all the advice!!!

You are doing fine but you need to make sure that there is no relationship talk.

So have you identified your WH's top ENs? And figured out what the LBs you were guilty of committing and how to avoid them? THis is where your focus needs to be right now. Your Plan A is where you have to be focused right now. Can you do it?

Fantie, the 3 month thing was great, I totally forgot that I did that with my H. No decisions for 3 months. Very good. (within that 3 months my H was saying things like "we HAVE to stay married" and it started a move back to sanity, though in my sad story there ware 4 years of false recoveries.)

You have to be clear on what YOU want (and YOUR Plans, A and B) and act accordingly. No more reacting to the rantings of an insane wayward.

Hi Fantie, hows those plans going?

I thought I might suggest you read cherryanns thread, shes at about the same place as you are, but starting a great plan A. cherryann's thread

FWIW worth I was in plan A for 3 months, and I was so ready for plan B when it came. The normal recommendation for a woman is for a few weeks, unfortunately I had some mitigating circumstances preventing it. After the first week or so of plan B I actually felt better about a lot of things, and frankly it becomes an enormous relief to just get away from the WH madness.

Thats pretty much what plan A is about, doing the things (EN's) that attracted you to your spouse when you were first dating. Your back to courting and if it works out right, you'll be courting each other forever which is very lovely

If WH says or does anything which makes you want to AO, just hold it and wait until you can unless the fury here were it's safe

what is ENs and LBs?

ENs=Emotional needs LBs=Love busters.

Here is a thread that you may find useful. It links a lot of threads and other info that will help you through your journey.

So if he gets his own place (which he is going to look for today but told me he wouldn't sign a lease today without talking to me and only wanted to get a lease for 3 months) this is ok - I mentioned to him to get an studio apt. and that when I work at the hospital at night then he could come here - keep the kids in their own enviroment. then he talked about making it a fun place for the kids to go to - he said he feels like he isn't a good Dad when I am around (I make him too uptight) and that I could come over and hang out -


Our 9 year anniversary is coming up in a few weeks - should I ask him out for dinner or should I wait until he asks me out on a date?

One thing that is hard is my friends tell me to go to the lawyer that he has done enough damage to me? How do I handle that?
Ok what does AO mean?

Thanks - great advice and support - keep it coming.

DO NOT TELL HIM IT IS OKAY TO MOVE INTO HIS OWN PLACE. Moving into his own place is his way of making it easier for him to carry on his affair.

Also, I don't know about putting a time limit onto your attempt at recovering. Are you going to Plan A until the 3 months are up? WHat if you decide before that to go into Plan B(which you most likely WILL have to do before 3 months, since DrH suggests only 3-4 weeks of Plan A for women).

AO=Angry outburst. Read the acronyms thread I linked in the newly betrayed thread. There are a LOT of acronyms out there, this thread will help.

There is no time line to recovery as I know it will be a long road. However, I just said let's not talk about divorce for 3 months.

Plan A - is where I wine and dine him and be my best and show him I can meet his emotional needs

Plan B? is what?

scotland - you said "DO NOT TELL HIM IT IS OKAY TO MOVE INTO HIS OWN PLACE" - how can I convince him to stay at home? I thought I tried everything.

Thanks

You cannot convince him.
What you can do is articulate how his plans/behaviors/decisions make you feel.
In a non-love busting way, of course.

"If you decide to move out, it will be very painful for me."
"This adulterous affair is breaking my heart. Moving out will deepen the hurt."

Just facts.
No accusations.
No pleading or whining.

Fantie, you asked about what to tell your friends who tell you to head to the lawyer.

Part of Plan A is to secure your finances. I think you might need to go back to see the lawyer you liked the best, tell them H wants to move out, you want to try to save the M, and find out how to protect your finances and the kids from his insanity.

That does not mean start divorce proceedings, although some people do end up needing to do that. It means find out what strategic moves you need to make to protect yourself and those children.

And tell your friends that you are giving the process some time, that he is not in his right mind and you are going to be hurt anyway, so why not try to save things if it can be done?

I have no idea if these numbers are true, I learned them from another site which shall remain nameless. It was that an affair takes 2 years to recover from when you recover the marriage in a healthy way, but a divorce takes 5 years to recover from.

This is what I meant. You can NOT control anyone's actions except your own.

I made sure that I told my friends and family that this is what I wanted to do and although I understood that they thought differently than they did, that I would appreciate the support in this way. It seems to get better when people see how much better you are dealing with things.

Have you ordered the book Surviving an Affair? I think you would get A LOT of helpful information from that. Also, you could start reading the links on the right hand side titled "How to survive infidelity."

Well how things can change in a flash - he went to look at apartments this morning and I even suggested a few for him to look at. our son has been acting up and so I called him this morning so he could talk to our son. just a little hint for him to see how all of this is affected our children.

He called a few times telling me about each apt. I told him that there was always a room upstairs in our house - and that the rent is really cheap. He told me that was in his mind also.

He decided to pick up our son from camp and take him bike riding afterwards and talk to him about how he's been acting. then they came home and I was having a tea party with our daughter and he joined in.

Then he was on his computer and called me over to show me a house nearby where he grew up - I was baffled - he even told me that he asked our son if he wanted to live near Grannie and Grandpa and Grandma and Grandpa - I was shocked because this is the first I had heard of it. I did mention about moving closer to family and friends in a letter - I am Canadian and he is from south of Boston so we have no family down here which is hard on the both of us.

then he shows me some jobs that he is going to inquire about up in MA - and starts getting really excited about moving and how we will have so much help. He asked me if I was open to going back to work part time - I am just like what the heck is going on - did I miss something - did he come out of the fog?

Then we were suppose to go on a trip to the Cape (where he is from) and then he asks me if I was open to go still (even though I canceled all of our plans and flights) he said we could look at houses and jobs and just get a feel of what town we wanted to move to -

I start making supper and he actually helps me out in the kitchen. He tells me that he will come stay at the house - and not get an apt. I ask him that before we move forward with a vacation and a big move (from Texas to MA)that I need to know that he is willing to work on the marriage - he said I am trying to say that and wouldn't talk about all of this if I wasn't - we are going to take it slow -

He even called his parents and told them that we were coming up there and told me to rebook our flights

He went to his hotel tonight because I could tell that he is stressed about going into work tomorrow and seeing the OW. He was going to the hotel to work on his resume -

I think someone punched me - is this a dream? I know that this will be a long road to recovery but we are moving in the right direction.

I plan to move ahead with caution - and keep in plan A.

Any other suggestions?

Plan A for now and see what happens tomorrow. Hopefully, the contact with OW won't change his mind again. Keep up with YOUR plans and work on your side of the fence.

fant, read everything on this site. Waywards go up and down like yoyos.

If he is in NC with OW the fog might lift, but if he sees her he will get thrown back into the A.

Buy the books, look at all the articles here. MB knowledge is the key to having a good M.

The OW is still his secretary - and she doesn't plan on leaving and he can't fire her (but the big boss told him to quit the affair or his job would be at risk)

I know he had a busy rough day at work yesterday after having a week off to clear his head. I went out last night for a few hours once he got home - I dind't want him to feel the pressure of me there. I got home at 8pm and we chatted a bit about going to his home town for a vacation and we worked on airline tickets - he started to become frazzled and I just say let's work on this another time -

He slept upstairs in our spare room - I laid in bed downstairs wondering if he was on the computer or his blackberry with her. I guess this is where the hard work starts to start to repair your marriage.

When he left for work this morning he came to find me and say goodbye (which before he would just leave) I just replied thanks and have a good day.

I am in Plan A and tying to keep it all together. Any other tips, advice or suggestions to help start heal this marriage?

Oh man, as long as they work together the A will most likely never end and your M will never recover. One of them has to go.

If your WH wants to heal this M, he is going to have to get another job. I know that you are going to say that he can't afford to quit, but ask me I know, quitting and finding another job will be a whole lot cheaper than a divorce. On that note, I am an expert.

She is right. The best way to look at this is as long as they work together they are still involved. No ifs ands or butts about it.

There is no way to go NC if they work together.

Like Chai I am an expert on this too. My XH still works with PP (even though he is no longer her boss) and it has been 2 years and the affairage is in October.

I know that XH had guilt at the beginning but going into work with the OW, he was drawn in and now he thinks he is entitled to do whatever he wants with no accountability.

The OW will tell your H everything he wants to hear and even if he wants to restore the M she will put up daily roadblocks.

In most cases it is the boss that gets fired instead of the direct report because they are the ones that should know better.

Fantie, I agree with the others, one of them has to leave that job. ASAP. Divorce is more expensive than unemployment.

My H also continued to work with his AP and that didn't stop until the day I announced that I would be showing up whenever I felt like it to his work place. She transferred the same day. (even that didn't kill the affair but it made it harder.)

I agree with that too - he is looking into other jobs and we are looking into moving from Texas to MA to be closer to family and friends. I have been in contact with the employees I told and they are keeping an eye on things for me.

We are going to go away next week up to MA to look at houses and jobs.

I know the evil person that she is and I am sure she is trying to lure him and do everything possible.

This part sucks!!!

fantie, the marriage will never heal as long as they work together. Recovery will be impossible. If he won't end contact after 3 to 4 weeks of Plan A, then the next step is PLAN B, a completely dark separation.

You are about at the place where you would go into Plan B NOW. I would plan on separating from him until he ends all contact. If you continue to remain in contact with your H while he sees his lover every day at work, then you are probably headed for a nervous breakdown. When that happens, your marriage is really over.

So, if you are serious about saving your marriage, I would explain to him that the only way for this to work is for him to leave the job. Then if he refuses, you should get a legal separation/file for divorce and go very dark in a Plan B.

Watching the lovers in contact does not solve the problem. The problem is that they SEE each other and until that STOPS, there will be no withdrawal and no recovery. They are both triggered every day they see each other at work. Other employees "watching" does not prevent that and it does not prevent from meeting away from work.

This is not a solution, fantie. And I would prepare to get a legal separation until he ends that job. Plan A is supposed to be a very short term plan for women, about 3-4 weeks. You are already past that.

The problem is that he CAN BE LURED.


Fantie, I suggested to this you, too, and you didn't take my advice. If you would go to the office every day and see her, she would get out of there quick enough. Why arent you doing that?

Fantie, the affair is not over. He is still hiding his contact with her. And that will continue until he leaves the job.

You have been in Plan A long enough. I would prepare for Plan B.

I agreed with this advice...and Vittoria also threw in her 2cents to do this. We did this to my sister's OW and I cannot stress how much SHE HATED BEING CONFRONTED.

There is nothing in the no contact policy that says:

"No contact after a suitable replacement job can be arranged."

It is no contact, now. Find a replacement job later, if that is an issue.

Have no tolerance for any reason for delaying this, no matter how rational.

Sorry I have been gone for a few days - both kids have been really sick and have been taking care of them.

update- he has been at home since Tuesday - he has been sleeping upstairs - he has been nice and has been doing kind things at home (for example I fell asleep and he came in to remove the pillow behind my head because my neck was all crooked), he bought me a new toner for my printer without me asking -

last time we had talked was about moving - when I asked him yesterday if that was still the plan he said no - of course not because he went back to work and has seen her -

It's like he is pulling at my strings - does nice things but then says he still hates coming home - and has no feelings towards me

can someone summarize plan B for me - I literally have no time to myself as the kids are always at my heels since they are so young.

Is plan B my next step?

Thanks

Yes, fantie. I would ask him to move out. Once he moves out, I would change the locks and send him a Plan B letter. In the Plan B letter, you would include a visitation schedule for him and the kids and specify that you expect him to continue paying the bills as usual.

Plan B means complete and total no contact. Any contact should be through and intermediary and it should only be pertinent information about finances and children.

Use the letter in Surviving an Affair and alter it to fit your situation. I would write it and then post it and let us give you feedback.

But the first step is asking him to leave. I would start off with a conversation that goes something like this:

"Dear, here is what it will take to recover our marriage, an end to contact with the OW and a committment to recover our marriage. That means we sleep together every night, open up our lives to each other and get into counseling [use Marriage Builders] I am willing to stay in this marriage on those conditions. If you can't agree to that then I would ask that you move out today. Your continued contact with OW and your lack of committment to this marriage are too painful for me.

You had offered to leave, and I am now taking you up on that offer."

I have been busy working on my plan B for the past few days. There is an opportunity for me to go back to work full time and I have been looking into daycare for my 3 year old and afterschool care for my son.

Monday was our 9 year anniversary - he brought me roses. We spoke last night - he told me his focus has been on making enough money to support us because he knows he has to pay child support, and keeping our son in the same school. Blah blah. Again he is all over the map and contradicts himself all the time. I told him that he can't live upstairs and we can't continue to live like this - that if he decides to work on our marriage then we can discuss that - but if not then he needs to move out. When I bring up the OW he gets very defensive - which indicates that the A is still going on.

He said we would talk again tonight - I told him I wanted an answer as to if he was willing to work on our marriage. In the meantime I have my plan B letter to send to him.

Do you have your Plan B letter ready then? You need to post it so you can get it edited by the vets. Looks like TODAY is the start of your Plan B. I am sorry, but he is going to continue his affair and you will need to show him that you ARE serious.

Get that Plan B figured out today in these last few hours and prepare yourself. Are you going to pack up all of his stuff? Or are you going to let him do it himself? Do you have somewhere your kids could stay while you are having the "talk" with your WH.

Well i wrote that early this morning - he decided to call in sick so we could talk today (however he did not know that I was having a mom's club pool party today) we talked a bit today and he said to me so you think we can really save this marriage? I told him yes - it will take time but I know we can love each other again.

He wants to sit down today and get a plan on the things we are going to change in our marriage - and work on them. The kids are home so we haven't had time to talk much.

Any advice?

if he decides to stay and work on the marriage - how do I suggest MB counseling to him without him finding out about this discussion board etc.

Would your user name be a give away? If not, then you can just show him the main website without pointing out the discussion board.

** CAKE-EATING ALERT**

Be prepared for him to try to negotiate a way out of this. He may even try to just buy a little time, wanting to keep both you and OW in the picture until he can figure out his next step.

If he isn't ready to meet your conditions of NC, working w/Harleys, etc, move to Plan B. Be confident. Don't waver

Fan --

Where is your voice?

In your last 2 posts you keep talking about what HE wants.
He's not capable of driving this bus, fanti!

If you keep listening to him, he's going to have you up and down, round and round -- because what he WANTS is going to change whimiscally on how he FEELS.

Somebody with a PLAN and some LOGIC needs to be in charge here.
That should be YOU fanti!

He doesn't get to "decide" anything.
Here is your side of that discussion:

End the affair. Right now.

or

Leave

There is no "working" on a marriage when one of the married people has a girlfriend.

The sirens are going off here. I've been there and see it plain as day. Besides, as long as he works with her in any cpacity there is no point going to the next step.

Everyone is right, I just posted a response real quick before catching up on your thread. There can be no working on the marriage until he agrees to meet ALL the conditions.

In his wayward mind he is running around in circles.

You are being tested and so is OW and he is trying to see what eggs to put in what basket. He is looking for the "better deal" to meet his needs.

This is the time to be strong and firm and not lose it. He is on the fence and trying not to fall in either direction.

Time to take the hoe out and knock him down and pray he falls in your direction. Have a good plan. Listen to these vets that have recovered their M.

Blessings.

we have talked and then he called in sick to work on Wed. What a roller coaster ride this is. On Wed. he suggested we each come up with a plan that we need to work on to save our marriage. I thought this was a great idea. I went to work right away on my plan. Took a lot of time and effort to make mine. I sent him an e-mail on Friday stating that my plan was done and that I wanted to talk this weekend. I even told him on Friday night, and we agreed to talk on Sat. night. Well that never happened of course. He said he didn't have his plan done but would and we would talk on Sunday. And of course that never happened either. So my plan B letter goes out to him tomorrow.

I will post my letter so you all can help me edit it if need be.

thanks

Plan B letter

Dear,_________


I really liked your idea of each of us coming up with a plan on what we would work on to save this marriage. Unfortunately, even though your idea, it did not have as much of an importance for you as it did for me. I think I made it very clear to you that I wanted to talk about it this weekend. When I approached you about talking, it was clear that you made no attempt to make your plan, and even though we agreed to talk on Sunday, each with our plans, it was clear that you had no intentions to do so.


With that said, I do truly love you. The last few months I have been through a lot. I understand that some of my behaviors led us to this point in our relationship. I apologize to you for my part in creating the environment that helped make your affair with Leslie possible. Although I've ALWAYS loved you with my heart and soul, I made you feel that EVERYTHING was more important to me than you and our marriage. It never was the case, but that is how I made you feel and for that I am sorry. I said and did many things in anger that I never meant. I know I hurt you. I wish I never did them, but can't change that now. If I had known what I know now, it never would have happened.


I foolishly put the kids first and our marriage on the back burner
without understanding my responsibility to meet your most important
emotional needs. I was not there for you when you needed me the most and we
are now both suffering for my mistake. I am willing to avoid the mistakes I
have made in the past and create a NEW life for us that will meet your
needs. I truly believe that it is possible. But I cannot do that until you end your relationship with Leslie once and for all.


Since you seem to have an emotional connection with Leslie and do not wish to try and repair our marriage, you must know how much this is hurting me. I cannot go on like this. Until you make a decision to quit the affair, I will not be able to have any contact with you. I'm not doing this to "punish" or "get back" at you. It is solely for my well being.


Please know I do still love you and I want nothing more than to get back together and repair our marriage. When you decide you want to give us a chance, then I will be ready to discuss our future, but NOT until your affair and emotional connection to Leslie is over and you no longer have any contact with her. Your continued contact with Leslie and your lack of commitment to this marriage are too painful for me. You must know about the suffering I have endured because of this. I simply cannot be with you any longer, knowing you with are still in contact with her. I can't fight for our
marriage alone anymore. As soon as you are willing to permanently separate from Leslie I will be willing to talk about our future, and the future of our family.


I want to be able to rebuild our Marriage someday. I want us to be able
to meet each other's emotional needs and to avoid doing anything to hurt
each other. We need to build a new lifestyle in which everything we do
makes us both happy. Then, there will never be a need for us to separate or
to have "friends" other than each other again. I want to be your best
friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you
as my best friend. I have spent the last 15 years loving you. I loved you the first night that 6th street first brought us together as I love you right up to this day. I just cannot
be with you or help you anymore as long as you are connected to her.


You had offered to leave, and I am now taking you up on that offer. You may see the children and we will work out visitation per our work schedules.

Now our Marriage is in your hands.


With all my love,

That is a good first draft. PLEASE DO NOT SEND THAT OUT. There is a lot of tweeking that needs to be done and I don't trust myself to be your only editor.

Where is the parts about your IM? You know that Plan B means going NO CONTACT with your WH. You CAN NOT talk/IM/Text/email.

I will look over this some more and I hope others will have a chance to as well. Plan B should not be entered into out of a purely emotional reaction to something you WH did or said. It should be done as part of your plan. HOLD OFF FOR A MINUTE okay?

what is IM?

Thanks and will hold off until some editing is done with the help of all of you.

Thanks

Unfortunately waywards have the attention span of a squirrel named "Hammy". Your letter has quite a bit of repetition and more detail than he needs or can comprehend right now. Let this be sufficient for now. Others will come along and improve on content, but I just edited out the redundancy and focused on the content most important for him to understand.

This is what I have come up with so far. Didn't want to leave you hanging.

IM=Intermediary. This is a person whom you choose to filter messages from your WH to you, about children and finances ONLY.

I have one problem here - I can find a friend who will can filter messages but we have absolutely no family here to help with the kids.

I picked up a lot of shifts at the hospital in August which means I have to be at work for 5:30am and have to leave the house at 5am (I will be working Monday, Tuesday and Friday from 5;30 to 2pm and on Wed. nights from 6pm-6am) The plan was that he would then take the kids to the babysitters on his way into work and I would pick them up when I got off of work.

With that said, how can i do this without family around and him gone. Do I ask him to be at the house each morning for 4:45am and when the kids (ages 3 and 5) wake up feed them breakfast
and then take them to the babysitters. This means I would have to see him. and on Wed. nights he will have to stay at the house (unless he has an apartment to stay at by then).

HELP. I could always wake the kids up at 4:30am and see if the babysitter is willing to take them that early but she has her own family and I am not sure if she would do that.

Thanks

I picked up a lot of shifts at the hospital in August which means I have to be at work for 5:30am and have to leave the house at 5am (I will be working Monday, Tuesday and Friday from 5;30 to 2pm and on Wed. nights from 6pm-6am) The plan was that he would then take the kids to the babysitters on his way into work and I would pick them up when I got off of work.

With that said, how can i do this without family around and him gone. Do I ask him to be at the house each morning for 4:45am and when the kids (ages 3 and 5) wake up feed them breakfast
and then take them to the babysitters. This means I would have to see him. and on Wed. nights he will have to stay at the house (unless he has an apartment to stay at by then).

HELP. I could always wake the kids up at 4:30am and see if the babysitter is willing to take them that early but she has her own family and I am not sure if she would do that.

Thanks

This is the things that need to figured out BEFORE Plan B. Brainstorm them. Ask the babysitter if she would be willing to take them earlier. I know this is really going to be a hard thing to figure out. That's why you can't go into Plan B without a Plan or else it turns into Plan C, Plan CONFUSION. Your WH can NOT come into your house once you are in Plan B. He can NOT come in for ANY reason.

I am sorry that you have to figure these things out but it must be done. Is there any way that the sitter can have the kiddos sleep over? You need to get some ideas flowing and get this figured out. I don't know if you think you would be able to keep up a spectacular Plan A until the end of August. Only you know that for sure.

So, get the ideas out there.

Well we sat down tonight to talk about our plan (the plan that he suggested we do to work/save our marriage) - it didn't start off too good or end good.

I asked him if he had his plan and he said no - I said do you know what you want to do - he said yes - I don't want this anymore - nothing will change - I want a divorce - then we talked about selling the house, me going back to work - we tried to talk about the kids - but that didn't go over so well - things got heated and we both said things in anger- I asked him to leave the house - and he asked if he could stay here (I was laughing at that one) he left for his hotel room (he called to tell me where he was and i called the hotel and asked for his room)

I know that they are still involved because after he left I checked her my space page and it said "HAAAA HAAAA!!!! IT'S NOT WORKING AND IT NEVER WILL!!!!!!!!!" even though he swears nothing is going on.

After he left I sent him my plan B letter even though I have not worked out all the details of visitation.

What do I do now? I am so sick to my stomach - i never thought it would go like this - what if he goes to his lawyer and files for divorce - how can this work?

HELP!!

Aren't you in Texas, sue for adultery.

Fantie, get thee to your choice of lawyer, now, to protect support for the kids and yourself.
He is insane and addicted and may or may not come to his senses. You have got to act NOW to protect your children. Because he does not care about protecting the children.
I am so sorry this is so hard and that he is such an idiot. I know, from when we talked, how hard you work with those kids. This is not going to be easy. But you are strong and good.You can make it.

Get legal advice. It is free for first consulation (ask first)
If you are in Texas, like me, I charged XH with adultery.

Nothing like seeing the OW name in legal document.

Do not beg him, do not put guilt on him. He is a wayward right now and he does not want anything to stand in his way of his A.

Yes he is in an A still. Do a screen shot of her space page. Keep all documentation for legal purposes in case.

Is she on FB or My space. If she is on MY space there are programs that she can have installed showing when you view her page. Do not let her know. Go to a site called Hidemya@@ so you can check out her site without her knowing.

Breathe.

You can do this.

I am going to see a lawyer today. I have to file for divorce inorder to get a restraining order on the OW - I feel that is important because she is bi-polar and I am fearful of what she might or would do due to her recent actions.

I confronted my WH about her recent posts on her my space page - he had no idea that she was doing that - and said that when he asked her about it she said that she felt threatened by me - she thinks that I am out to get her fired (because back on exposure day I called her parents and encouraged them to tel her to seek new employment) so she was posting all of them to taunt me. they are both stupid that it only hurt her in the long run. I told him that she risked her own job the day she started the affair with her boss. And so did he.

He texted me at 4pm yesterday so say he was coming by the house - I said we will not be here - he replied "where are you going? - then he called because I didn't answer him - he said he needed to come by to get some clothes - I was like you packed a huge suitcase and you don't have clothes for tomorrow - I said tell me what you need and I will leave it out on the driveway for you. Then he said I will make do with what I have. He never said that he wanted to see the kids - it happened to be our 9 year anniversary yesterday (I had a small glimmer of hope he wanted to bring me flowers and was just finding an excuse - I know it was a long shot)

He called this morning to talk to the kids - he asked if we could talk later today. Should I hold off seeing the lawyer? Even if I file for divorce can this marriage still be saved?
You can sue your WH for adultery in texas? Can you sue the OW in texas?

Still have not told the kids anything. Any advice on what to say to them?

Don't know about the legal questions but yes, even if you file for divorce the marriage can be saved. The conditions are the same-- end all contact with OW forever, move home and agree to a plan of working on the marriage.
I think you should not hold off seeing the lawyer. You can still talk to your H if you have not started a plan B yet. Don't be a doormat and don't lovebust.
I think you are doing well. I know it is all really hard.
One line you can use with your H after you have lawyered up is "I only talk about marriage. The lawyers handle the divorce stuff." it is almost guaranteed he will try to get you to take less support than you and kids are entitled to, or make some other concessions. When you talk with him, it is not about divorce details.

Yes, you can allege adultery in Texas but most of the time it's only purpose is when it comes to the division of the property. You cannot bring in OW though except to name her in your claim or by asking your attorney to depose her. (i.e., Petitioner alleges that Respondent has committed adultery with _______.) You CAN get a Protective Order from the police department but only IF she threatens you and you can prove it. A restraining order against the other person in the lawsuit (you or your husband) is issued through the Court IF you ask for it when you file for divorce. It is usually issued regarding harassment. It is called a "TRO" which is different from "temporary orders".

If YOU file for divorce then you become Petitioner and basically control the case, unless your WH files a cross-petition and then he becomes cross-petitioner. That's unusual though. As Petitioner, you can nonsuit at any time - but if he files a cross-claim, a nonsuit would only nonsuit YOUR claims and his would still be "live".

Fantie, How are you today? Any updates?

Well it's been awhile since I been on here. WH moved out on July 20th - he has rented a duplex - it has taken me some time to realize all what's been going on - This week he has the kids all week except for 1 day/night - it is a good taste of my daily routine - on the first day he was calling with questions (too bad I was busy and coudln't answer)

I am taking this time to put myself first and work on me. I started seeing a counselor to work on some personal things for me. It has helped a great deal. I never dreamed that this would happen to me/ us. I am trying to cope and do the best for me and the kids. I am trying to take it day by day and try not to focus too far into the future because I realize I can't control the future.

Any words of advice or wisdom during this time would be greatly appreciated.

What plan are you in now? Are you going to go to Plan B soon? Did you get everything figured out?

in plan B - there are some times I have to see him due to child care and scheudles - but I have left him alone and haven't said a word - he did pay all the bills