My husband and I have had our share of issues. He is on the verge of leaving me and has been sleeping in another room or at a friends house for nearly a month.

We have been married for 2 1/2 years and lived together a little over 6.

I will tell the whole story but my big issue right now is he is unwilling to try and work things out. He will hardly communicate with me and any time I try to communicate he is short and say there is nothing else to say. Yet it seems like everytime we talk I get more information about what is really bothering him. He tends to not like to explain things or talk things over in depth. I know this about him, it is his personality. It is possible that he has told me things before but did not explain it fully and, in the heat of the moment, I was lost in translation, if you will. And once he's said something he is the type that hates repeating it.

So this has been going on nearly a month we have been having problems for maybe 3-4 months and they have continually gotten worse. Now he says he is leaving, which he has said before. I obviously don't want him to leave and I am willing to work on the problems that we have. But he is very insistent that he is not willing to read any books or go to counseling. I know that there is still hope. He has said that he misses me when he is gone and that he would be unhappy without me. But that he is unhappy now and by leaving he believes there is "an end in sight"

Yet he is unwilling to put forth effort. I know he still loves me. I can tell. He is keeping a really good guard up when he is around me but Sometimes he let's it slip.

I can't force him to work things out. I know that won't work. And I have to admit I have tried and I'm not proud of some of the mistakes I have made in trying to win him back.

I know you probably want more info and I will get there it is a fairly long story and a lot to tell but is there anything to get him interested on trying.

What to Do, welcome to MB! I'm sorry to hear about the situation that brings you here. If he is feeling "done," for whatever reason, then it makes sense that he's not interested in books or counseling for the time being. Has he said to you what the "straw that broke the camel's back" was? What do you think it is? Are you making amends, rebuilding that bridge?

There is a great movie called Fireproof, about a spouse's journey to win the other's heart back. Beautiful, and it gives hope, knowing that families come back form this every day.

Do you have folks in your life together with strong decades-long marriages? Would you be willing to call these folks, and ask them to speak with your H? Sometimes talking things through with a friend that can share their experience, strength, and hope will give him the safety and security to really reason things, through, instead of react.

On a gut level, do you think it's another woman?

Have you read the Basic Concepts here on the site yet? They can help you formulate a plan, and we can support you in that.

Is he having an affair?

Are you?

Advice for affair situations are a little different from your everyday withdrawn spouse.

He just told me yesterday that he feels I have pressured him to be someonehe isn't. I am a planner I want to plan out my life. He is not. But he knew this before we got married. And like I said he just told me this yesterday. If it was bothering him why didn't he speak up. He's not ready to have kids and because I have a time in mind that I would like kids even though it is several years from now he doesn't like it. He started to go to the bar after work more and more. Mostly due to stress at work I believe. He often would invite me but then he slowly stopped inviting me as much. And I would get upset and feel left out. I told him straight up I wanted some attention. He still came home but I felt like we never talked. There were so many times that I forgot to tell himnor ask him things because we hardly had anytime together.

Both our parents have stayed together. We have plenty of older couple friends who have as well. I wish he would be open to talking to someone. He will hardly talk to me. He hasn't told his best friend who lives far away but was actualy in town this weekend to see us. The only people who know is the one person who he has stayed with a few times and a couple other people know that he has been staying away from the house but only because they have seen clothes in his car.

No other woman. I am fairly sure about that.

No. I'm not either. And I don't think that's the problem.

Going to the bar without you and spending nights away from home sound pretty suspicious to me. Have you snooped to be certain? Phone records, internet, voice recorder?

Thanks for filling us in, I feel like I understand better. He sounds like he thinks now that maybe he wasn't ready to get married, to merge his life with another. Like maybe he thought being married was going to be more like living together, he'd spend time when he felt like it, but it didn't feel like a commitment.

Do you think your H is marriage material, and worth fighting for? I think you are here because you do think this is a marriage worth fighting for.

Have you read the Basic Concepts? There is a lot you can do, introduce your favorite activities together back in a light, fun way. It sounds like he's feeling work stress, how do you two like to unwind? Maybe a fun, light dinner, and a nice walk? Exercise is great for stress, and you sound young, do you two like to bike or swim together? Then, since you're getting your time in together, you can also take some quiet time, maybe you two like to read or some other thing where you're in the same room, but not interacting so much?

I'm just trowing ideas out there, they may be totally off, to get you thinking, what do you all like to do?

Hiya Whattodo,

How old are you guys? I agree that you should rule out the possibility of an affair.



Both of these are red flags to me.

However, there is a strong possibility that there is no affair. What is more likely, in my mind, is that you married someone who isn't really marriage material, someone who is not ready, willing, or able to actually SHARE their life with someone else.

This mistake was compounded when you decided to live together. Living together, despite common beliefs, actually makes your marriage LESS successful. It makes it LESS likely that you will have a good marriage.


BUYERS, RENTERS AND FREELOADERS:

Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.

Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.

Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accomodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carpet, replacing the roof, and even doing some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.

Renters believe Our relationship is temporary. You may be right for me today and wrong for me tomorrow.

Buyers believe We are together for life.

Renters believe Our relationship should be fair. What I get should balance what I give.

Buyers believe We both contribute whatever it takes to make our relationship successful.

Renters believe As needs change, the relationship may end if needs are difficult to meet.

Buyers believe As needs change, we will make adjustments to meet new needs.

Renters believe Criticism may prompt me to change if it's worthwhile for me to do so.

Buyers believe Criticism indicates a need for change.

Renters believe Sacrifice is reasonable as long as it's fair.

Buyers believe Sacrifice is dangerous and to be avoided.

Renters believe Short-term fixes are fine.

Buyers believe long-term solutions are necessary.

Living together is a 'renter' like mentality. The first 6 months a couple lives together tends to establish the pattern by which they negotiate and live their lives for the rest of their lives. A couple who is living together will establish a set of ground rules and behaviors that work for living together but are detrimental to actually sharing a LIFE together. Marriage requires a BUYER'S mentality, rather than a renter's.

It sounds like your husband is a renter, and you were a renter, but now want to become a buyer.

You need to sit him down and let him know that THIS is what you want out of marriage: a buyer's relationship. But realize, that he married you under the RENTER'S agreement. He will be (and is) resistant to becoming a buyer and may decide the buyer's relationship isn't what he wants.

I would suggest you get the book Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders from the bookstore here, to identify the mistakes you made at the outset of this relationship.

I would look at the Emotional Needs Questionnaire and identify his ENs and work to fill them. Try to SHOW him the kind of marriage you want through your behavior.

Realize, however, that you cannot MAKE your husband become a buyer. You cannot FORCE it on him, you can only lay out your wants, and respectfully persuade him to join you.

Then you have to decide what you will do if he chooses NOT to join you. If he doesn't I HIGHLY recommend you DON'T bring children into this union. Children will only compound and exponentially exacerbate your problems, and then you will have to endure THEIR pain as well as your own.

I will look into renters buyers. Definitely sounds like the situation we are in. I always believed living together was a good thing for us. But maybe not. If I could get him to read that stuff it would be wonderful.

I actually have done the emotional needs questionaire. I have an idea of his but I kinda want him to verify it for me. I feel like I have met his needs. I am not the perfect wife by any means but I think I do a pretty good job. I mean until all this went down.

No children don't worry I wouldn't think about bringing kids into this. And I am quote glad we don't already have kids. If this does work out and we commit to each other I will make sure we are stable before thinking of kids. I am a long way from that anyway. He was bothered by the fact that I said well I want to have kids at a certain age or by a certain age. But it's not set in stone for me. I think he has noticed as more of our friends have kids I have gotten more into it. But how could I not? I like kids always have and he knew this about me. It doesn't mean I want to take care of one. I have alot to do in my life before I want kids. That's the downfall of a planner. My mom thinks I will never have kids because there will always be something else for me to do before I can have a child. And you're never ready to have children. As much of a planner as I am I know this. Both my siblings had kids young. 18 and 23. I'm 26 and feel it's still a long way off.

I do wonder if he is second guessing marrying me. But I don't know. Maybe he feels like there should be more and because there is not he is just ready to give up??

I am going to look at basic concepts. Is that on this website?

I just wonder if it is too late. How can I get him involved if he has already given up? He's not the type who would come back. I think once he leaves that means he's made up his mind. He's not going to change it.

Nope - not too late.

The Basic Concepts are linked at the top of the page.

Read through them. They will lay out how you can become a better wife.

Become the best possible wife you can and demonstrate you are able and willing to meet his needs. But also let him know that you expect reciprocity.

You get him to be in love with you and then see if you can get him on board with the MB program.

Do the Love Busters Q's, too.

Started reading the basic concepts. I think he has completely given up. It's weird that he hasn't told anyone yet. I haven't told anyone because I believe we can work things out.

And yes I am sure of no affair. It isn't like he all of the sudden started going to the bar or stopped inviting me. It was because we had the issues.

Readin basic concepts now. I will looks into the love busters questionnaire too.

If it's not too late is there anything I can to do to get him to come home I can't show him how good of a wife I can be if he is not here.

So. I am certain that he does not want to work on anything it hurts me pretty badly but I can't sit around and wait for him to decide he wants to leave me. I can't change his mind he has to do it.

He hasn't been home the past two nights and will hardly talk to me. I tried to make small talk with him over email at work yesterday and he responded I can't do this anymore. I didn't get the email bc of email issues and a few hours later he sent another saying we have to talk and I can't ignore him. When I saw it I explained the email issues and responded basically telling him how much I want to work things out and that I see our relationship getting better because we could both figure out what we want and fix the issues we had.

Despite his ignoring statement, he ignored me. Didn't talk to me the rest of the night and didn't return my phone calls. Finally about 9 I tried to text him and he answered I tried to talk but he obviously didn't have anything to say and didn't seem to care that he had ignored me even though he was annoyed that I had ignored him.

So after sleeping on it and mulling over it today I sent him an email. Said that if he is available I would like him to come home tonight. I said I was going to make dinner for us and I would like to talk. In onenof our fights he said that he would like to keep the house and since I have no desire to live in a house we had together I agreed even though he can't afford it on his own. He swears he can but I do the finances and that's his own problem anyway. So in the email I sent I said if you are insistent on separating it may be better that I get an apt if you are wanting to keep the house. I don't like being there without him anyway. It's too big for one person.

All he responded was ok. So I guess that means he's coming.

I really don't want to do this but I can't force him to be with me. And I can't make things better if he doesn't want to be with me.

I still believe we can make it work and I plan to tell him that tonight. And I am going to say that I am willing to work for it but if he is not than it won't work. I can't do all the work and expect everything to be ok. He has to be 100% commited to fixing things too. And right now he's not.

Any advice? I dont want to lose him I feel like this is my only choice.

WTD - I think you're right on target. Be totally open and honest with your husband regarding your feelings. Make a list of what you love and what you'd like to improve about your marriage and share it with him. Ask him for feedback on your feelings and as him to share his own.

The biggest challenge you face is that your husband is unwilling to communicate. Nothing will ever improve if you're the only one putting in the effort. You need to let him know that you're committed to creating a beautiful life together but he has to be willing to learn and listen and contribute to the growth of your marriage as well.

If it were me, and he refused to be an active part in my marriage, I would begin the divorce process. As emotionally challenging this would be, you are still so young and have no children in this relationship. There is no reason whatsoever you cannot move forward with your life and find someone better suited to take the journey with you. Remember all you've learned from this relationship when consider it when entering into new ones.

I'm so sorry for all the stress and unhappiness you are feeling, but this evening with your husband will be YOUR "light at the end of the tunnel" because you will know what direction to start moving in.

Remember we're all here to support you, so keep us updated and let us know how we can help you through this.

Whattodo, sorry I've only got a moment to type but just finished reading your post. I have to ask you something real quick, when y'all were dating and falling in love did you ever tell him "I am willing to work for it but if he is not than it won't work. I can't do all the work and expect everything to be ok. He has to be 100% commited to fixing things too. And right now he's not."? I'm quite sure that you didn't. For the sake of arguement, let's say that he's honest and there is no one else. Darling you are not going to get him back by begging, argueing, demanding, throwing down ultimatims, etc.... You say you're a planner, then make a plan to save your marriage, honestly at this point he doesn't have to be on board. Make a plan to meet his emotional needs. Make a plan to eliminate ALL love busters. Make a plan to become as attractive/safe as possible to your husband. Make those kinds of plans. I know with your personality that this is going to absolutely be difficult because you want answers and structure. Well having those answers and structure have gotten you to this place so it's time for a different plan.....

If he is not willing how can I meet his emotional needs? He doesn't even come home. And when he does he doesn't want to be around me.

His emotional needs are(I think)
Sexual fulfillment, for sure
When I go through the others I think I could eliminate all the others because I've never felt that he really cared but I will leave a couple in because I suspect he does care about them on some level.
Attractive spouse. He would never admit it to me but I think this is important, to some extent. And maybe not only in the physical sense
Financial support. Again he wouldn't admit it but he likes the fact that I have a good job and am able to contribute and that we are able to afford things most couples our age can only dream about and it's because we both work high paying(although stressful) jobs
Domestic support.
Admiration.

I would love the chance to try and meet these needs. In fact the little time we have had I have tried. Its hard though. Because I feel like I'm working hard to meet his needs and I'm getting nothing in return. My biggest is affection. He's not worried about meeting my needs right now.

Doing love busters now. I think maybe we are more at that stage.

I suspect that he is either having an affair or there is a woman that he likes to hang out with at the bar (Emotional Affair).

I really don't think it's an affair. I know everyone is quick to jump on affairs but I really don't think so.
If he was having an affair he would have no reason to stay. He would just leave. If he was having an emotional affair he would come home. He would probably put on a good show.

He's not there, though. He's not staying. He won't even come home. No amount of anything you do will do any good until you 1)find out FOR CERTAIN if there's an affair and 2)kill it.

Last night went ok.

We talked briefly. But it was calm and there was no anger so that was good.

He slept in another room but just him being there made me feel better.
Than this morning I was in the kitchen making some breakfast and he comes out of the guest room we exchanged goodmornings and I asked if he'd like some toast. Then he comes up behind me and hugs me. Doesn't say anything. It felt really nice. I'm trying not to get my hopes up. I didn't say anything I just hugged him back. Then we went on with the rest of the morning.

One thing I asked him to do last night was to let me know what he is doing. For the past month I have had no idea if he was coming home staying out or whatever. And I didn't want to be a nag by asking. But I think it made things worse because I didn't know. He seemed ok with this arangement. I can't force him to come home but if he atleast tells me that he isn't coming I know.

We have a long way to go and I dont know for sure that the path we are on is one that leads to a happy life together. But for now I feel a little better and maybe I can start meeting his emotional needs when he is around. At the sane time though I think I should leave him alone and give him space.

What would you hope to accomplish with this? Create more distance? That whole 'absence makes the heart grow fonder' quip is a bunch of baloney. Have you finished the LBQ?

Have you made a plan for eliminating LBs?

What is your ultimate goal? If it is to have a loving, intimate marriage, then I'd like to warn you about setting up a 'married single' situation. There is no reason to tolerate not knowing if or when your husband is going to return home. Be cautious of falling into the 'this marriage at any cost' trap that people can get into when they are so desperate to save the relationship.

Your husband may simply not be marriage material, as has been mentioned.

What's your plan?

Many people here (myself included) have had success with a plan like this:

1. Eliminate LBs.
2. Meet ENs.
3. Refuse to settle for less than a loving, intimate marriage.

Telling your spouse, "Hey, you know, that doesn't work for me," is not nagging. It's giving them vital information. Be very very wary of giving false information ('I'm okay with you staying out all night if you'd just let me know'---if you're truly not, and who would be???) in a desperate attempt to lure him home. Be nice, be alluring, but be HONEST. If he's hurting you, it's okay to let him know that.

Space is what got you in to this mess.

He doesn't need space.

He needs to know:
That you can be a good wife who will meet his needs.
That you won't try to hurt him by love busting.
What your expectations are for your marriage (a buyer's agreement).

So - you demonstrate that you can be a good wife to him, and let him know what marriage looks like to you - and invite him to join you.

You make yourself pleasant to be around, and loving. You don't NAG - you just inform him of your wants and desires. It isn't a Love Buster to tell him the truth of your hopes and desires for the future - that's marriage.

I get the feeling he has no clue what marriage is.

At the same time - you MUST be snooping. Look into his cell records, if he gets on your computer at all a keylogger would be a good idea. It is VERY probably he is seeing one, if not more, girls on the side - that's what a Secret Second Life enables him to do. Staying at friends house, not contacting you, not coming home - that is a Secret Second Life and it is VERY dangerous, not just to your marriage, but to your health.

I would recommend caution if you decide to sleep with him. He is not acting in a trustworthy way, and you trust him with your health at your own risk. He could be sleeping around and bringing who knows what to you. I know you love him and want to trust him - but he ISN'T trustworthy.

I don't know what to do anymore.

Yesterday I asked him if he wanted me to pick something up for him. It was a beer I knew he would like that you can't get everywhere and they had it at a place by my work. He said yes he wanted it and then said that he wasn't sure when he would be home. This is typical lately so I figured he was meeting his wok friends for drinks and would be home after. Well I picked it up and went home. Before I started getting myself dinner I texted him he didn't say he was eating dinner so I thought I would see if he wanted something to eat. You know trying to meet an emotional need of fixing dinner. He said he was eating out. I was a little upset. I'm trying not to let it get to me. I know you all are thinking affair. He did come home last night but not till I was already in bed. I heard him come in as I wasn't asleep yet. I went downstairs and talked to him briefly. He was pleasant then I went to bed.
This morning he had light conversation agian. We are supposed to be going somewhere tomorrow with my family and some friends. I asked him what time he wanted to leave. I assumed we were still going since he hasn't told me otherwise. He said I don't care. But it was weird. I said well I'll just say noon and left it at that. He didn't say anything else. He left for work and so did I.

I Don't know if I should confront him agian. Or continue to meet his needs and try to be a good wife. I still don't think it's an affair but I am confused by the way he is acting.

Oh, I'm sure it is an affair. I'd snoop, and hire a PI if necessary.


An emotional need is something that creates feelings of love within you for someone else. An emotional need is something that makes him fall in love with you. Fixing dinner is probably NOT an EN unless DS is at the tippy top of his list.

Focus on his REAL emotional needs - what it was that caused him to fall in love with you in the first place.

If Sexual Fulfillment and Attractive Spouse are high on his list, make sure you always look your best and flirt with him when you can (I'd be VERY careful if you have sex with him). Recreational Companionship is probably up there, too. Why can't you offer to join him next time he goes for a drink? Let him know you miss spending time with him.


He is your husband. His actions affect you. That is how marriage works. You have to get over this fear of being honest with him because you think it will chase him away. THIS is what I was talking about when a living together situation creates a Renter's agreement which in turn damages your marriage.

You're still thinking like a Renter: "don't tell him he hurt me so that he doesn't get upset and leave"

The buyer attitude realizes "his independent behavior will erode my love for him, so I MUST tell him how this hurt me, so he knows what he is doing."

You should TELL him when he's hurt you.

A simply - "Oh, I was looking forward to dinner with you. Kind of disappointed I'm missing out. Miss you."

If you want a marriage to work you have to realize your silence HURTS your marriage. Your silence has CREATED part of this mess you are now in. Time to open up and be honest about your thoughts, feelings, and expectations.


I would work to make this outing as pleasant and enjoyable as possible. Look your best, flirt with your hubby, be fun and caring. This is a great Plan A opportunity.


Confront him with what - don't confront him if you think he's in an affair. It's pointless. Snoop and gather evidence, then expose his behavior - not to him, to everyone else.

Try to be a good wife, and at the same time be honest about your needs and feelings. I'd avoid serious conversation talk, just state what you feel, when you feel it.

Honestly - you feel confused because you are drifting without a plan. I'd seriously move this thread to the Surviving an Affair board, Read up on Plan A and snoop to find out who he's having an affair with then create a Plan to save your marriage.

Yeah, you don't confront over suspicion of an affair. You get evidence, and then just state it--to everyone in his life.

Please at least let us know that you've snooped his phone. Can you get a hold of the phone, or the records?

I have told him he has hurt me. He knows it. He told me he needed space to work thing out. I've been giving him space. But I'm at the point now I feel like things should start getting better. Or atleast he should want to be at home with me not out.

I mean to confront him about my feelings not an affair. I still don't think it's an affair. But since you all seemed convinced I am starting to wonder.

I cant get to his phone its locked but I can see the records.

Problem is I don't want to snoop. And I don't think I'll find anything.

Do you want to save your marriage or not?

Do you only want to do the things you really want to do, are you only willing to go 'so far' to save your marriage? Then say so! Say it: I only want to save my marriage if it means I only have to do the things I am already comfortable with. I am not willing to go beyond my comfort zone for my marriage.

Why would you bother with



if



this is true? I mean why waste the breath?

He KNOWS he's hurting you. He DOESN'T CARE. He doesn't care to change his life enough to STOP hurting you. YOU are not important to him. This marriage isn't important to him.

This is the result of marrying someone under a renter's agreement.

You CAN try to fix this, but it will be tough and take a large toll on you emotionally.

It will REQUIRE snooping and EXPOSING.

You up for that?


Well then, sign the divorce papers and move on.

Seriously.

You have one vision of marriage - your 'husband' has a completely different one - one that's more like casual dating.

He lives a completely separate life independent from you, one you have enabled and are scared of demanding end - and it MUST end if you actually want to have a Marriage.

But this second life enables him to be out with as many women as he pleases. If SF is high on his list of needs, and he isn't getting it regularly from you AND he's out partying at bars and sleeping who knows where - yeah...he's cheating.

You cannot FIX this marriage, you can't even BEGIN until you rule out the possibility of other women.

Fix yourself all you want, there's no point. As long as he's getting needs met on the side he will never willingly commit to acting like a married man.

What is the point of being married if you won't do what it takes to fix it?

I suggest that rather than continue to torture yourself with this man, and since you have no desire to do the actual hard work marriage takes - you file for divorce and spend a few years figuring out what marriage actually IS before you decide to go and shack up with someone else.

I want to save my marriage and I am willing to do whatever it takes but he would be mad if he found out. It may be a step I have to take anyway but what if I don't find anything?

He didn't used to go out every night without me. This has only been since things got bad between us.

What if I simply ask him. What is marriage to you? I thought I knew what he thought but I can get his opinion and use that to build a plan. If he doesn't want to be married than Like you said what's the point in being married.

I want to be married to someone who wants to be married to me and yes right now that is not the case. But a couple months ago he wanted to be married we had some issues but he still came home he invited me to go out with him every time. We spent most of our time together. And 6 months ago we were a happy couple.

So what if he's mad.

Hon - right now you don't even have the shadow of a marriage. Really you are limping along on your last legs - and you can limp like this for YEARS wasting your life on his neglect.

You need a CHANGE.

The pattern you two have established for your marriage has nearly destroyed it.

Honestly, the way you describe the relationship, if he IS cheating, I'd advise you to walk away and sort yourself out. There is VERY VERY little to keep him in this marriage. There are no children - and you've only been married 2 1/2 years.

Children and a long history together provide incentive to remain in the marriage. You have neither of those.

You've married someone who doesn't believe he should have to put forth any effort in maintaining your marriage, and your behavior has REINFORCED that belief.

Recovery from an affair - IF the incentive you provide is good enough to convince him it is WORTH staying with no kids and not much history and a low level of commitment to begin with - will take 2-5 years and will require him to RADICALLY change his lifestyle. No more goin' to bars, no more nights away, no more partying without you.

2-5 YEARS - more than the time you've been married.

All that being said - if you think it worth it, the path to fix this is VERY narrow.

Step 1 is remove the possibility of other women - and I would bet you there ARE other women. You SNOOP to find out. You are his WIFE, not an acquaintance or girlfriend - his WIFE. EVERY act of his affects you and as such, you have a RIGHT to know if he's playing Russian Roulette with your life and health. So he'll be angry - so what! If your marriage has the foundation to survive this - it will get over his anger. His having OW will ensure the DEATH of your marriage as you will NEVER be able to have a good marriage while he has an OW. So SNOOP if you're really willing to 'do whatever it takes'

Step 2 - when you find evidence of an affair, plan on EXPOSING it to EVERYONE: his parents, siblings, friends, YOUR parents, siblings, friends, the OWS parents, sibling and friends. EVERY DARN PERSON UNDER THE SUN must know what it is he is doing - to provide accountability and ensure his behavior stops. Exposure, like snooping, is non-negotiable.

Step 3 - this is done in conjunction with the above: PLAN A. This demonstrates a willingness and ability to meet your husband's needs and be an ideal wife. This will take its toll on you emotionally. A prolonged Plan A can cause you to develop Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Plan A should last a few weeks MAXIMUM.

Step 4 - Plan B. If Plan A doesn't shock him back to you - you go Plan B for your own protection. This involves COMPLETE no contact with your husband. No speaking, no texting, no emails NOTHING. You cut him off completely.

This may not make a lot of sense to you - but these are tried and true tools to END an affair. Realize that you stand a good chance of losing your husband DESPITE all this because there is little that hold him in this marriage.

So - you ready to start? You ready to do what it takes?

THIS is what makes me think he's found someone else. There is a new, better, funner, less stressful point of comparison. Someone who's bed head is still cute - someone who's laundry and dishes he doesn't have to clean up - someone that doesn't bring with it the baggage of every day life.

Whatever plan you make - whatever words he says in this conversation are MEANINGLESS if he has another woman. He may tell you he wants to work on it - and he may REALLY mean it - your efforts will FAIL if there is another woman.

A conversation isn't going to fix this.

ACTION will fix this.

This question is, imho, for good times, not bad. In our worst times, my H said that marriage is where each of us pursue our own interests and have separate friends, and oh btw, the mom (ME) also has to take care of the kids and home (24hr job) while the dad (HE) takes care of the finances (8-12hr job). Sounds fair and FUN, eh?

It took a major smackdown on my part and a willingness to BE LEFT to turn my marriage around, and you don't have the leverage I did. My leverage was, "You want out? Fine, go, but you're getting physical custody of the children. You want a divorce? Fine, get it, you're getting custody of the children." Takes a whole lot of fun out of the 'single life' dream when you realize that you're WILLINGLY SINGLE for NO DANG REASON with FOUR KIDS.

You don't have that leverage. I do think you should cut and run.

So he just said he's going out to dinner and won't be back till late. What do I do now? I can't force him to come home. And I have an opportunity to spend time with him tomorrow. I don't want to blow that. I don't want to fight either. Or take some extreme measure like following him.

You won't take extreme measures for your marriage?

Well - I laid out pretty clearly what you need to do to save this marriage.

You're pretty clear (for someone who'll 'do anything') about what you WON'T do. What will you do?

Honestly - I'd look into his cell phone. If you have a girlfriend he doesn't know - I'd see if she'd be willing to go to wherever he's going and see who he meets. I'd look into Voice Activated Recorders and buy one today at Best Buy or Radio Shack and then put it in his car while he's asleep. I'd see if I could get into his email. I'd look at the accounts for any unusual spending.


Extreme measures are what this is going to take.

Really, you don't seem to have the desire to commit to extreme measures.

So - what are you WILLING to do? Are you willing to do the steps I outlined above?

Because if you aren't there really isn't much more advice I can give you but to leave.

What - you seem, at best, a Renter.

You are married to someone who is probably a Renter, but more likely a Freeloader.

You need to become a Buyer if you want this to work.

I don't want to be manipulative. I have actually threatened to do extreme things before and it's made things worse. He doesn't want to be threatened to come come back to me. Nor do I want to threaten him to come back to me. I want him to choose to do so on his own.

I asked him to call me when he got a moment. He was still at work and was going to help a friend after work. So he may be busy right now.

I wrote down what I want to say so I don't forget. I'm going to tell him that I am hurt and that I was hoping to spend some time with him and that we hadn't been able to spend anytime together. But that I didn't want to force him or manipulate him into coming home to be with me.

Snooping and exposure is not manipulative. It is telling the truth. It is honesty.

Very few waywards have the strength to end their affairs on their own. Usually, when it does happen, the fear of destroying a family is what sparks the confession.

Your husband has a great life right now - a single, bachelor's life with a wife for whenever he feels like 'playing' family. He will not chose to end that. Instead he will keep you on a line, feeding you just enough slack to keep you from leaving.

He will probably NOT do the right thing and chose you.

Snooping and Exposure give you a chance to recover this marriage. But a slim chance at best.

I can tell you that the recovered Former Wayward spouses here who were exposed are GLAD they were exposed though they were pissed at the time.

Really - the more and more I come to this thread, the more and more I think you just need to end this.

You don't threaten. You say and you do.

Frankly, I think you should go ahead and file. No kids, short marriage, H who won't put you on his priority list or even come home (!!!)...you don't threaten to divorce him if he doesn't pay attention...you divorce him.

What you are doing right now is going to get you more of the same. He comes home and stays home or the locks get changed and you go back to Ms Maiden Name. No threat. Just say. Then do.

You are worth more than this. I wish you believed this.

Yes.

If you wont do the 'extreme measures' to save this marriage, then you must act to end this limbo.

And this - this isn't manipulation. This is growing a spine.

Okay. So I didn't want to say this before because I knew everyone would jump to conclusions but here it goes. Background first.

This is not the problem in our marriage but it's what brought everything to head. I totally and completely trust my husband and always have. But about six months ago we made a new friend in our circle. A woman. She was nice and I kinda liked her and she got along really well with my husband. They have similar personalities. Itbothered me and my husband knew it did and even offered to not be friends with her but I said it was okay because I thought I could deal with it. Bad idea bc I couldn't. And by the time I decided I didn't want him to hang out with her things had gotten really bad between us. It has nothing to do with her but it exaggerated things.

The problem is and always has been that I was trying to make him something he is not. Or rather someone he was not ready for yet maybe. I have assured him I don't want him to change who he is. I married him knowing who he was. But somewhere along the way we stopped meeting each others emotional needs and things just went downhill. Then when she came around and he seemed to enjoy spending time with her it made me jealous which made me be more controlling and clingy which he didn't like and it wasn't who I was or wanted to be either.

So then he stops being home and sometimes was not home at night. I know he was staying at another friends house. But I also know that he on occasion stayed at this womans house. Slept on the couch. I know thus for sure. Well as things got worse and the distance between us got greater and my thoughts started to move toward affair I began to look at the facts. And from an outsider and I'm sure you all think this he is sleeping with her.

Well I wasn't the smartest and without knowing for sure kinda hinted to him that I thought maybe there was something going on. I didn't ask straight up but he knew what I was hinting and denied.

A few days and thing were getting worse. He said he was going to find another place to live. He didn't want to stay at the house and he was tired of living out of his car and sleeping on couches. I somewhat agreed. I wasn't happy about it but I've done a lot of reading and sometimes a separation can be beneficial to repairing a marriage. So I said we needed to talk about logistics of the separation. He agreed to meeting me for lunch. We talked about financial and that we would continue to communicate and spend some time together and he agreed to do these things. Not that i was happy but the idea of the separation as a way to repair our marriage was growing on me. And I saw some positives in it.

Then we were sitting in the car after lunch and he gave me the tickets to the game we were supposed to go to. He said I could use them if I wanted. I was stupidly holding out hope he would go with me and asked him to. He said no. He was still going but he would find other tickets and would transfer the hotel reservation to my name if I so wished. I declined and said I didn't want to go without him and he should just use the tickets instead of wasting more money on more hotels and tickets. He knows I wanted to go and I didn't want to give up my chance to go but I really only wanted to go with him. I asked him what his plans were he said he was going alone but he was going to meet up with some friends and then maybe... Her of course. I knew this was a possibility but hadn't really thought about it. He agreed to meet for lunch again after this weekend.

Later I was thinking about our conversation and sent him an email. I asked if he would reflect and write down what he wants in the separation. I read that it is important to set these things up if you are hoping to use the separation as a rebuilding tool. And I asked straight up if he was spending the weekend with her. He was mad. He said our issues have nothing to do with her and I should trust him. And that the weekend is not going to be spent with her. I said okay I just needed the truth. And I believe him. He basically said because I asked him that there was no hope and he wasn't going to answer my other question and we might as well sell the house and find permanent living situations apart. We left it at that and I asked to talk to him later he agreed.

Later he called and asked if I had sent a couple friend of ours to confront him. I hadn't sent her and I told him so. I don't think he totally believed me but he said he did. Apparantly she confronted him in front of other people who have no idea there is anything going on with us. And we have pretty much kept it to ourselves haven't told many people. I think she was kinda nasty to him. When he called he had left and was driving aimlessly. I told him he could come home and I promised I would not speak to him If he wished. I said I wasn't happy about it either. I want happy with her confronting him in public like that and I know my husband will likely be mad at her husband who is a very good friend of his. He wouldn't tell me exactly what she said and hasn't come home but I don't know what to think or where to go from here.

Any adivce on separation? And dint tell me he's having an affair. I know it's a possibility I don't need to hear it again. I trust him and It is not the problem.

Sorry for the long post.

Would you please go read some stories on SAA?


YES.

I'll go take a look at SAA.

Do people really make their marriage better with a separation? Can it happen or will it just drive us apart.

No, not really.

Separation is divorce practice.

Too little time together has CREATED this problem, more time apart will make it WORSE.

I would advise you to NOT separate.

I would advise you to snoop because he is in an affair:


Sorry, but this has GUILTY written all over it. He is your husband, he doesn't get to keep secrets from you.

Seriously - go post in the Surviving an Affair forum if you want the slightest chance of saving this marriage. Going it on your own is making this WORSE.

Marriages are made WORSE by a separation. You can't fix the marriage if you are not there. Separation only increases the risk of divorce.

The problem is that your husband is having an affair, Whattodo, and until you face it, this ship is going nowhere. You can't save your marriage until you address that first. I can see you don't want to believe that so I would suggest that you hire a PI and get the proof.

But I assure you that your husband is having an affair and your "trust" is misplaced.

Until you accept this and take steps to KILL the affair, your marriage situation is hopeless. Sweeping this under the rug and pretending it is not happening only serves to ENABLE the affair. Every day you allow this to go on, his affair gets more and more entrenched.

p.s. I would click on "notify" and ask the mods to move this to Surviving an Affair.

Do you really want to save your marriage, whattodo? There are no guarantees, but we can tell you the best way to make that happen.

Kill the affair. Unless the affair is ended, your marriage is done. The most effective way to kill the affair is to a) get evidence and b) expose the hell out of the affair to everyone. And I do mean everyone.

Affairs thrive on secrecy so exposing will be ruinous to the affair.

Keeping the affair a secret only serves to FUEL it at the expense of your marriage. While no guarantee, exposure has ruined many affairs. Here is a thread with a radio link where Dr Harley discusses the value of exposure here

Problem is if this isn't an affair, and I have reason to believe it is not, I will ruin everything. He told me he is trying to decide if he wants to change for me. He is convinced that I want him to be someone he is not. Which is not the case. Yes I someday hope for him to be a father but I'm not asking him that now. I made that clear to him. He said he needed time to think about it.

I guess I need to find out for sure if it is an affair but I am out of options. I have considered going to her and asking her. There is no evidence that it is an affair. He's not texting or calling her excessively or hardly at all.

I Do want to save this marriage. And I agree if it is an affair it needs to be exposed. But I don't know if it is.

Yes - you DO want him to be someone he is not.

You want him to be and act like a husband.

That requires certain things: a willingness to live interdependently, a willingness to meet your needs, a willingness to share his life with you, a willingness to COME HOME AT NIGHT for crying out loud.

You are so terrified of actually expecting him to act like what he has committed to be (your husband) that you have enabled him to be nothing more than a glorified boyfriend.

Right now - he isn't acting like a husband. He may have been in the past, when things were good - but look: things got a little bad and he's acting like a single kid.

Who he is right now is NOT someone you should be married to or planning a family with.

You DO need to find out if there is an affair (I am certain there is) and you need to end it. You're wasting your time asking her. Why on EARTH would she tell you the truth?

You keep expecting people who are acting suspicious to be trustworthy.

Trust is earned, it is fragile and easily destroyed. You don't give trust out of love, you give it because someone is proven trustworthy and you remove it when someone is not trustworthy. Your husband is entitled to your love and care, but not your trust.

Hire a PI. Find out for SURE.

What, no you won't ruin anything if this isn't an affair. Because you wont' confront unless you have evidence. That has to be your first step. Get the goods and then we will help you with next steps.

He is having an affair. I am not guessing; I am telling you. So please get the goods and do not let onto him or his lover that you suspect. Get the goods and we can help you save this marriage.


This is just wayward fogbabble designed to keep you distracted from the real problem. This means nothing.

Your husband is already acting in an untrustworthy manner. Nothing YOU do can make that any worse than it already is.

What you can do is let him know you will not tolerate a marriage where he carries on or insists on having an environment where he could carry on.

Either way, you will make things better for you, not worse. Follow the advice these folks are giving you. They will give you your best possible shot to turn this situation around.

Ok any advice on snooping. My husband is very smart. It won't be hard for him to find out if I am snooping. I don't have access to his email or anything. Only phone records. I know where she lives.

I have already confronted him about it. This morning he asked me why I was so hung up on "things that are not the issue" I just replied I didn't know than said I needed to know the truth.

I think he is confused.

Should I talk to his friends? He says none of them know we are having issues. Well except the woman go confronted him last night. Her husband found out somehow and my husband had told me he thought I had said something to them. I haven't. He doesn't know how they found out. I was thinking of talking to her if he found out without anyone telling her maybe she has some insight.

A little lost here I don't like snooping one bit.

I'd talk to the friend and her husband. Also get a Voice Activated Recorder and hide it in his car. Hire a PI to follow him when he goes out.

I printed a wedding picture of us. I've been carrying it around in my car with plans to leave it taped to her door. I know I shouldn't but it might make her remember he is married.

You don't understand how a wayward thinks, which explains your confusion. See, what a wayward wants is BOTH the spouse and the lover. That is exactly what he is doing. The perfect set up for him is to have his needs met in both places and keep you hanging on by throwing you the occasional crumb. And yes, they all put on a good show.

We aer quick to jump to affairs only when there IS ONE. And we are almost always right. Keep in mind you are the least objective person on this thread. We can objectively see that this is an affair.

Anyway, there is a real easy way to find out: hire a PI!

Snooping is a good thing in that it can help you save your marriage when your spouse is withholding the truth. Snooping is a VIRTUE.

Please don't do that. She knows he is married. She doesn't care. And don't confront your H anymore. Get evidence of the affair FIRST and then come back here.

This is some of that manipulative behavior you said you detested so much.

This wont help you.

Snooping will.

I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to confront him anymore either. I will try and talk to the friend though.

What, the very most important thing you can do to save your marriage is to hire a PI. You MUST get evidence of the affair in order to move forward.

I have just skimmed through your thread.

100% agreed this is an A.

You know that Dr Harley has said in his professional experience EVERY single time one spouse wants "space" or to move out, it has been because of an A. I think he has said only one time in 30+yrs it was not due to an A.

You are in a BS fog. WAKE UP!

I am not saying to be mean but because you have a shot of turning this around if you focus on the AFFAIR instead of all the other stuff you have been writing about. But you need to get busy and get the proof. THe more time you waste, the more entrenched he gets in the A.

STOP WASTING TIME!

My sister came to me with a similar story to yours. She would not believe me that it was an A. I implored her to post here. She did. Because every single poster told her it was an A and to snoop, she finally did. She got her proof w/n about a week or so.

Do you have access to his email/FB account/credit records? Do you have the $$ for a PI?? If not, can you plant a GPS & VAR in his car? Get moving...

Facebook yes
Phone records yes
Email no
Credit cards yes, I pretty much know where he goes except he has gotten cash a few times lately

Don't really want to spend money on pi

I know where she lives. She is a friend of his. I can't prove it's an affair just because he shows up at her house or calls and texts her.

In fact there's no real way for me to prove. They aren't going to act like more than friends in public. A PI wouldn't be able to help. I've thought of knocking on her neighbors doors. It wouldn't be prove but ask what they think the relationship is. He sleeps on her couch so they would say he's her bf probably. The one friend of hers that I know hates me and of o ask her she would just turn around and tell my husband I asked.

I can ask the other friends of ours. It's really my only option but I don't think they actually know anything concrete they just suspected something was wrong. And when I asked my husband what she said to him he said he didn't want to talkl about it because he was mad about it because she came and talked to him in front of a bunch of people. But I don't know if she accused him of an affair or if what she said to him. I wasn't there obviously.

Ok in the meantime. I should do plan A right. Regardless of if it's an affair this would be good I would think.

I also asked if it would be possible to plant a VAR/GPS in his car which you did not answer.

You can establish that he is spending nights with OW or you could capture a conversation in which he admits the A. I have seen many people get their proof via VAR here.

BTW have you checked his cell records? Whose name is the phone in and what service do you have? I believe for instance if the phone is in your name under Sprint, you can fill out a form and get access to TMs.

What - for someone who is willing to do 'whatever it takes' to save her marriage, you don't really seem willing to do much.

Divorce is expensive. The expense is nothing compared to a PI.

Recovering your marriage is TOUGH WORK. It's gonna put you through the wringer. There's nothing nice and easy about this. You are going to have to do some very DIFFICULT things, things that will seem like they will destroy your marriage (they wont, the affair will).

If you can't even muster up the ability to do what it takes to snoop are you going to be willing to expose? Are you going to have what it takes to do a GOOD plan A (both carrot AND stick). Will you be capable of a Plan B?

What you gotta roll up your sleeves here. This isn't for the light hearted.

This is gonna be a war.

Do you have what it takes?

I predict you aren't going to make it with this attitude. Asking people will avail you nothing other than alerting your H to the fact that you suspect. A PI can probably get evidence of the affair in one day.


That is silly. He does not sleep on the couch. I am sure you know better.

Whattodo, you have been given all the tools necessary to save your marriage. If you refuse to use them you only have yourself to blame.

moving on......

I already know he has slept at her house on the couch. I don't need a gps to tell me where he is going.

Phone records show nothing.

I guess I could do VAR but might be tricky.

I realize divorce is expensive. But what is a PI going to tell me that i don't already know? That's why i don't want to get one. I know who she is what she does where she works where she lives. I know when he sleeps there. Sometimes he sleeps at home too. I don't know specifically the places he goes out all the time but I do know some of them and it wouldn't be that hard to find him if I wanted.

I do have what it takes.

I've already confronted him remember. Based on what I know. But bc she was a friend he has that to fall on. And without putting a video camera in her house how could I know? I'm sure if they go out to eat they are making sure it looks just like friends incase they run into someone they know.

I could just say I want him to go NC regardless.

I DO want our marriage to work and I do want to do what it takes.

Plan A involves uncovering the affair, so yes, you should do Plan A by uncovering the affair.

Yes a PI can give you the intel you need by taking pictures of them together. However, you already have the evidence of the affair since they are sleeping together. You don't need more than that.

You have the evidence of an affair to be able to expose it right now.

You already know that your H spends the night at OW's house? Huh?

I am wondering why it took five pages for this to come out...and why you have been trying to convince us this wasn't an A.

We can't help you if you can't face what is happening...

Except sleeping at someones house and sleeping with them are two different things. He may be having an affair with her but he could also just be sleeping on her couch.

He is really confused. We were able to talk today. It was good, there was no crying or angry or anything just talk. Both let our feelings be known. He's not sure what he wants. Yes it could be because he is having an affair.

He packed a bag and left but said he may come back. He then emailed me later and asked what I was doing. He seems to want to come home but doesn't. I basically told him the basic concepts and how I felt we had let our marriage get in the state it was in and how we could fix it. He is not sure about it but he listened to what I had to say and really thought about it I think.

I know I need to be checking for signs of an affair still but the way he was acting today was not what I would have expected if he was having an affair.

It is a lie that he is sleeping on her couch, What. You have plenty of evidence right now of an affair. There isn't much we can do to help you if you deny reality.

Yes but I have already confronted him. And I have no more evidence. It is possible he is simply sleeping on her couch. You can say I'm denying reality but it is a possibility.

I know everyone thinks it is an affair but I dont have any solid proof yet and hiring a PI would just be a waste of money.

One last shot...

Do you agree that you can use reasoning & circumstantial evidence to determine things?

If you go outside and the sky is cloudy, the ground looks wet, people are carrying umbrellas or wearing raincoats, you can conclude that it had rained without actually having seen the rain, can't you?

Any ONE of these things that you have described that are flaming red flags of an affair:

~ moving out, wanting "space", sleeping in another room
~ looking back you can identify a threat, someone who "clicked" with your spouse or popped up on your radar screen
~ WS acts cold, distant, confused or avoids communicating with you
~ WS identifies numerous "issues" in the M but when the BS tries to work on WS's complaints, nothing improves.

Not only do you have all of these things, but your H is sleeping at the suspected OW home!!!

The only thing I can see that has convinced you this is not an A is that your H denied it. Guess what? Most of them do deny it! I wouldn't be surprised if your H also gaslighted you and made you feel if you kept pushing him about OW/an A, then it would really be over.

If you do ask him about this again, I would suggest bluffing him and telling him you already have proof of the A, but I think he knows that he can manipulate you so I dunno if that's going to work.

Good luck!

I agree all the evidence leads to an affair.

He is very confused. He doesn't know what he wants. The simplest decisions are hard for him to make. This may be a sign of the affair also. As I read more on the SAA I learn more about it. I agree he is not going to admit to an affair. I would like to expose but I feel we have made some positive steps these last two days.

I made the choice to stop confronting him or accusing him. I have been hinting at it quite a but. I also made the choice to stop getting upset. I calmly told him that I was very hurt and did not want to separate but I didn't want to push him either and if a separation was what he needed I would agree. I said we would need to sit down and decide what we wanted out of the separation and set ground rules and decide how long we want it to last. I said none of it needs to be set in stone but we need to make decisions and then we could change them if we wanted.

It looks like we will be separating. Forcing him to stay will make things worse. I will be continuing to look into the possibility of an affair. And once we do separate it may be worth it to hire a PI. If he is still spending the night or she is spending the night with him it is obviously more than a couch to sleep on and I will have my answer.

And in the meantime I will go on saving the marriage the best I can.

I know you don't believe in separation but I can't force him to stay either.

He asked me today about a family member who separated for years from her husband. He asked why they separated. The situation was different there was a child involved and they were too young when they married. I told him. He said that everyone he knows who has divorced or separated it was because there was infidelity or abuse involved. He was trying to say that because the problem is that he is unhappy he doesn't understand. I told him I think people who are unhappy try to figure out why they are unhappy and fix it rather than just separate. But that I was sure there were people who simply weren't happy. I wanted to say unhappiness leads to infedelity but I kept my mouth shut. I will bring that up at another time when he is ready to hear it.

I am going to say one of my conditions of the separation is no dating. If he can't agree to that than that will be a very telling sign. I have a good reason too. If he is truly unhappy and he thinks that he should date to find someone he can be happy with I will say. You will be happy with someone else. I'll say you were happy with me for all these years so happy that we got married. It's easy to be happy in the beginning.

I want to fix this. Trust me. But accusing him of an affair if I am not positive is not the right way. But believe me I am still looking for the signs.

Actually you will be enabling the A and supporting your H's cake-eating so you will be doing the opposite of saving your M. If you would like information on how to stop the A, I suggest you move this over to SAA and get information on your next steps.

But you're not doing the best to save your marriage, in fact, you're not doing much at all.

Maybe you'd best stop "planning" and start doing - doing things like hiring a PI who can get the photographic proof that you need of an affair. You say you have a well paying job, why not spend some of that cash on a PI, look at it as an investment on your marriage. You already know he sleeps at another woman's house, but for some strange reason think he's sleeping on the couch. Who told you that? Your husband? And you believed him?

A truism - married men do not stay at a woman's house overnight to play tiddlywinks and then sleep on the couch.

My point is that until I find concrete evidence and I am going to be looking for it, I am not going to confront him or expose him. And I will be looking and I may hire a PI but I will be doing my own investigation first.

And in the meantime I will be the best wife and try to meet all his EN. He has stayed at the house now and even had dinner with me and we had some fun conversation. Even when he has been staying at thehousehe hasn't been here during the day much and he was. He also did not pack a bag this morning which means he most likely is coming home tonight.

I am not going to approach him, I will let him approach me. I told him I want to discuss the separation but until he comes to me to talk I will say nothing and simply observe. And try and meet his EN at th same time.

Any advice is appreciated. I know I need to expose the affair before things can get better but right now he's staying at home so I'm not going to push that one yet.

I've been reading on SAA.

I am beginning to believe you guys. I need your help. How do I convince him separation is the wrong idea now. How do I expose with no evidence. He has shut down every means of evident I can collect. He doesn't talk to her on the phone or text her bc I can see phone records.

I still think PI will do nothing because he will justify that they are friends every step of the way. Am looking at voice activated recorders for his car any good links? And how do I hide it so I am sure he doesn't find it. I am not sure I will get anything from it since I have his cell phone records and he's not talking to anyone unusual.

Should I confront her? I know you guys already said not to but a stay away from my husband and stop letting him "sleep on your couch"?

Should I go to the friend who came to my husband. My husband wouldn't tell me what she said. I have no idea if she was accusing him of an affair or simply talking to him about the fact that we've been having issues. I want to expose especially her. I know she would be really embarrassed if I exposed it to people and I want to. I also know for a fact they are not right for each other. I know that is not how affairs work but I know my husband and I have talked to her several times in the past. They are not compatible as lovers. He would not be able to fill her EN like at all. I talked to her once about her ex and she told me some things.

Anyway. I could use some help and input here.

Thanks.

I would talk to the friend that confronted your husband. I would AVOID confronting the OW. You don't want to tip them off as to what is going on.

VARs on Amazon

There's a quick list of available VARs - honestly they're all probably about the same. You could use some velcro to stick it underneath his seat.

Is there any way you can get into his email? Or take a look at his phone?

Honestly - you have enough as of right now. You know he's asking for a separation - you know he's sleeping over at another woman's house. Where there is smoke, there is fire.

Thanks.

I doubt that I can get to email. I used to know the password but it changed and I don't anymore. And I have no access to his work email without stealing his phone which is locked (work policy) and I also don't know that without watching him.

I do have a lot of evidence(I took some time to write it all down) but nothing concrete and he can deny all of it. I don't want to pretend I have evidence either. He would just find a way to make it sound like i didnt know what I was talking about.

A couple things.
He has become very "private" saying things like that was a private conversation and blah blah. I know this is just another sign of the infidelity. But how can I convience him I deserve to look at his emails and know the truth. Especially when he is so close to simply walking out the door. He doesn't need thy extra push.

He hasn't been wanting to spend time with me. I know I need to expose the affair first. But If he doesn't want to spend time with me I don't know how plan A will work. Does he have to be on board with this for it to work? Right now he's not willing or wanting to make positive steps to a happy future together because he "needs to decide if he wants to be with me" AKA wants to decide if he can give up OW. How do I make him realize that it's not going to get better until he decided he wants to. I can try an meet his emotional needs but if he doesn't want me to I feel like it will only make things worse.

I am still waiting for him to come to me right now but I think he still is in separate mode. Even though we spent a pleasant evening together.

So I don't think I have mentioned this yet but here's something that happened the other day.
Husband came to me sat morn and asked if I would like to go with him to a football game. One we were supposed to go to together before things fell apart. I felt so happy but he made it clear that it did not mean we were getting back together. I agreed. So as we were about to leave. He starts acting really weird, now I had already made arrangements to stay home. I did not plannon going until that morning. When he started acting wowed I inquired. He said "it doesn't feel right" then tells me how ow just chastised him for not making a decision. And he said and it is understandable because I've been sleeping on her couch while I was looking for an apt. At the time I was somewhat distraught and trying to stay strong while also not stooping to the level she did. I had lots of time to think about this after he left and this is kinda how I came to the conclusion that it is at least an EA. Anyway I would like to confront him about it but am unsure how. I was thinking about saying something you said bothered me. That she has no right to chastise you over a decision you make just because you are sleeping on her couch. But I am afraid it will backfire.
When he left for the trip he called me and we had a long discussion while he was driving. Then he talked to me several times during the day. And then came home and spent a pleaant evening together. Do I don't want to bring it up out of the blue if this is his attempt to reconcile. I realize the affair will need to be exposed but what if he is planning on going NC on his own. This incident may have been a taste of how she is? And because I was so calm and considerate about the situation. I don't know. I am trying to work things out.

Thanks for the help!!

WTD, I encourage you to hit Notify and ask the moderators to move your thread to Surviving An Affair. From way out here, it looks like your H would want to protect his affair at all costs, and so wouldn't be open to convincing. You have enough evidence for you to know. I think Plan A is supposed to be very short, because it is so hard. So, this short Plan A where you demonstrate the willingness to meet his needs, and then Plan B, to preserve the love you still have for him. Because as I've read it here Plan A alone works only like 15% of the time. Have you read the articles, are you familiar with these?

Thanks.
I think he does want to protect it. This morning everything was fine then he pulled out his wallet and started counting money. I asked why he had so much cash, he never carries cash. He said he had to get money out of the ATM for something. I said I'd noticed a few ATM trips(I take care of finances in the household so I track the bank accounts and credit cards spending) and he was like yeah because my wife is probably tracking my credit cards just like she tracks my phone in real time. WTF? He was angry. I have been like so nice to him. He's actually had dinner with me two nights at the house and we watched some tv. I don't know what to do anymore.

He came back home. I tried to apologize for my outburst. I then got a little upset on the phone with him. He ready to just give up. He says all his married friends tell him he needs to just come back to me and all his single friends tell him he should leave. I don't want to accuse him. He doesn't want to be accused. It says I should Not accuse or judge when I expose the affair. I still don't have any concrete evidence. I know that we can't make any steps to recovery till she is out of the way but I don't know how. He is going to keep everything a secret as much as he can.

I think he's going to find a place to live today. And he's not even willing to talk about the separation anymore. He just wants out. He doesn't care how long and painful divorce is.

Maybe I should move on to plan B. Any thoughts anyone. Is it ok to move to plan b before the affair is exposed? He is going to be super careful now. If there was any proof surely it is gone. He thinks I should trust him. I told him I wanted to trust him but how could I when he didn't even want me to know where he was going? Or spending our money.

My opinion is you should go to plan B. It doesn't matter if your H is having an affair or not (although I think it is obvious he is and you aren't willing to believe it yet). He is screwing with your emotions and your head big time. He is making you crazy...he's totally unable to make any decisions. How long are you willing to spend to save a 2.5 year marriage? You are young. You want a family. At what should be one of the most wonderful times of your life (young, recently married, gaga in love with each other) you've got a guy who is unwilling to commit to anything, who's sleeping with an OW, who does what he wants and hides the truth from you, blaming you for being controling and trying to change him. Honey, get out and build a new life and find someone who's a stable candidate for marriage and fatherhood.

Thanks.
I still want to make it work with my husband though. He is confused too. And the fact that he's letting his single friends tell him what to do is ridiculous. Yes he is most likely having an affair. I will agree to that now. I don't want to believe it but it is the only thing that makes sense. It just sucks that I didnt end it when I had the chance. I really want to expose it right now but I don't want my husband to lose credibility at work. I wish he could just see past all this. He refuses to realize that we can be a happy couple. And he's totally against the ideas I think. I was trying to be really calm and nice and talk this morning and he was like this isn't you. It was like he wanted me to get mad and yell. I said I thought there was a better way to discuss issues and that we didn't have to do it with anger. He was like I don't care what your books say. Blah blah. He admits that we had stopped meeting each others emotional needs but think that because of that we should just separate. Because obviously that means we don't love each other. I tried to explain the love bank concept to him(without actually calling it that bc I don't think he would be very receptive) but he didn't want to hear it. He thinks I am trying to make him be someone. I tried to explain that's not what I want. That I just want to be happy and make him happy.

How exactly does Plan B work? I've been focusing so much on plan A. Any pointers on plan B is appreciated.

You can't reason with a wayward spouse. You really can't.

I know exposure is scary. You may lose your marriage, but in reality you lose your marriage if you don't expose.

You need to sit down and list your exposure targets. Call them all and say "My marriage is in trouble. DH has been not coming home nights, instead he goes to XXs home. I believe he is having an affair. He is very confused and receiving bad advice. Please, help us and our marriage by encouraging him to end his affair."

When your husband blows his gasket, stay calm and tell him you will fight for your marriage because you believe it is worth it, then move the conversation on.

He WILL get upset.

That's ok.

Plan B is done after a STELLAR Plan A of carrot (meeting needs) and stick (exposure).

In Plan B you go complete NC from your husband. It's like you fell off the face of the earth for him.

Plan B is risky because it can lead to divorce. Especially in your situation with a short marriage and no children, but it CAN work to bring a spouse around. Know that it takes time, because usually you will have to wait out the natural death of the affair, which can take years. The average life of an affair is 2 years. Some end in months, and others go on indefinitely (26 years so far, but hers is one of the longest I've ever heard of so I doubt it likely for your situation).

You have to STOP trying to talk to your H about marriagebuilding. It is a lovebuster and it WON'T work!

He is in a FOG and part of the FOG is when the WS has turned everything around on the BS in order to justify the A... So every time you LB him, you are just giving him more ammunition, in HIS mind, for the A.

I would focus your energies into getting your exposure ready = your best shot at ending the A. You really only have once chance to do it and you want to do it right.
Affairs thrive on secrecy and shining a public light on them helps to remove the fantasy aspect of it...

After you have exposed it, you continue your Plan A while you get your Plan B lined up. This may take a couple of weeks. You are going to need some time getting an IM, your PB letter written and getting everything ready so that you can go dark and STAY dark.

Your Plan A will consist of avoiding lovebusters, making the house a nice place to be, trying to plan things you know your H would enjoy and inviting him along, etc., doing things to make you feel good about you such as exercise and getting some new makeup or clothing. Keep the R talk to a minimum. I would also add to try not to be so focused on his reaction as doing the best job you can to follow your plan. I had a Plan A sheet that I had to refer to all through the day to keep my head straight and to STOP reacting to my H's waywardly behavior!

Once you go dark, the OW will have to meet all of his ENs herself. Everything is in motion for the A to crumble.

Please let us know if you intend to expose so that we can help you get that lined up.

Who should I start off with. His best friend? Who lives in a different state. His parents? Who he hasn't spoken with in a month though I'm not sure why. He hasn't told many people he's been having problems. A couple people have found out from his the way he's been acting.

I really want to tell ow to back off but I know I can't. That's like the number one thing I feel like doing right now though.

I do believe this has taken it's toll on him as well. He's been extra stressed. I hate to see him like that.

you need to do a massive explosive exposure in order for this to work...I am talking about

You family/friends
WH family/friends
co-workers
Boss
Neighbors
pastor
OW's Friends/family
ETC

Doesn't matter if they haven't talked for a while exposure will KILL this affair.

Sweetie he is the one that is making his life miserable not you, so don't feel sorry for him at all.

Is it ok to expose without concrete evidence?

I mean he will just deny it. And I don't see him being open to coming home once I do expose. So how can I do Plan A? He will just be mad at me. I know it's the only way to save the marriage. When I expose what do I need to say.

WTD --

Why oh why can't you hire a PI?
Seriously -- it would probably take one day to get the evidence you need.

You so badly need to study the information here -- you tend to buy into all of his justifications and gaslighting, and you need to get stronger at recognizing his attempts to deflect the blame for the situation at YOU. You haven't done anything wrong here!

You said you are a planner. So PLAN THIS.
Get your plan A in order and perfected. Work on collecting the evidence and snooping. Plan out your exposure targets and strategy. Set a schedule for Plan B.

Of course he is going to be MAD at you. He wants BOTH of you, he doesn't want to be forced to make a choice. He doesn't want to make a commitment either way. He wants his cake.

Exposure = telling friends and family about the affair. And asking for their help and support for the marriage.

Confrontation = talking to your wayward husband and the other woman with your evidence and your expectations and boundries (ie, that they cease all contact and end the affair)

Exposure makes continuing the affair unattractive to BOTH of them. They should feel embarressed and remorseful about their behavior. You will be exposing OW just as much as you are exposing your husband. Affairs are only fun when they are secret.

DITTO!

But he doesn't want me. He wants to leave.

What evidence do I need to get from a PI? I will look into some local PIs.

I have a list of all the reasons I think it's an affair.

That's why I was asking if I could expose based on what I already have. I think I've posted everything here.

He spends the night with this woman! NOBODY who believes in marriage will think this is okay. Anyone who does think that your H spending the night with another woman is just fine needs to be placed in your trash bin. Your exposure will expose these people so you can rid your life of them.

If he wasn't getting some needs met by you, he wouldn't have contacted you at all once he started the A and he wouldn't have come home at all. Stop listening to his words...

I agree that you have enough evidence.

Who is on your exposure list??

He doesn't know what he wants. If he wanted to leave, he would be gone and you'd never see him again. But that isn't the case. He calls you - he comes by sometimes. He runs hot and cold - because he DOESN'T know what he wants.

His best friend is #1 he cares about me hes my friend too and husband has told him very little. I've already spoken to him once. Not about affair though. He knows my husband best out of anyone but he's also not the best relationship marriage advice person. Although waaaay better than my husbands single friends hes been going to. Atleast he's in a stable relationship tho not married.

His parents. They will be very mad at him but they are his parents so. He has no siblings.

I really hate this one but my family. I really don't want to bring this one up to my family. I haven't even had the guts to tell my sisters let alone my mother or father.

His co worker/friend. The one who's wife came to him. I may go to her for help since she knows something. But she went to him without coming to me first. And I think she somewhat convinced him to come home.

Another coworker of his who he works closely with. She and her bf have always been very nice to me and although my husband finds her annoying at times she can really get on his nerves not sure that will be a good thing but her.

I don't really know any of her friends except the ones she knows through my husband or met through him. But she will be embarrassed with some of these people. Shes not a co worker but works with his company so the co workers know her or have worked with her in some manner before.

There are some others I have in mind too.

This is by far the worst thing I have ever done. It sucks.

There is nothing wrong or bad with you doing this.

The wrongness is in your husband actions, not in your exposure. Exposure gives you the BEST chance for recovery.

You have nothing to be ashamed of, because you've done nothing wrong.

Get on her facebook account and target her family and friends, there is a really good template you can use to send FB messages regarding her affairs to your husband.

And I want him there. I invited him to dinner several times. I asked him to go places with me. I continued to make our home as inviting as possible. And it was like he didn't care. He might come home for a while. I wasn't going to bring anything up until he decided he wanted to talk but then this morning he said something to me that set me off I said one wrong comment and it was all over in his eyes. He said he was leaving. Does plan A mean I have to be perfect and set aside my own feelings at all costs.

He brought something up that happened before he stopped coming home every night. And then said It's running all together.

It continues to get worse. And he says if I had given him space to begin with maybe this would be over by now. Meaning he'd have made a decision.

For a short time, yes. Not at all costs - when you feel your emotional stability slipping, when your love for him starts dying, then you plan B

Plan A is only for about 3 weeks. But Plan A is incomplete without Exposure.

This ISN'T YOUR FAULT. NONE of this is your fault.

His confusion isn't your fault. This limbo isn't your fault.

The marriage got rough, you might take some fault there - but HIS AFFAIR ISN'T YOUR FAULT.

You are not to blame here.

You are not guilty.

You've done nothing that justifies this abuse.

You are letting yourself get derailed by his fogbabble.

Plan A is only intended to work ON ITS OWN about 15% of the time. It is also intended to lay the foundation for Plan B, so that your H will be left with some good memories of the M when the OW doesn't live up his expectations.

Just continue on your path and do your best to kill the A. Hopefully it's not too late...

She doesn't have facebook. Weird for an under 30 I know.

Plan A starts after exposure.

I was trying to do plan a before I got to exposure. As I was gathering evidence and making a plan. I seriously doubt I will be seeing him tonight although he did not pack a bag that I know of. And unless he left work early. But I doubt I will be seeing him and I'm not going to call him either.

What is going on with your exposure? Are you going to do it today or tomorrow?

BTW, you can possibly find out who OW's parents are by going to intelius.com and putting in her name and the state. The relatives pop up in the right hand column. OW's parents would be GREAT exposure targets!

Not tonight.

I think tomorrow night. I want to be ready. This is a big deal for me. And I Really don't want to do it. I know I need to but I am scared.

I doubt I will find her parents that way. She's from a big city and has a common name. Will try though.

What do I do if he comes home tonight? If he doesn't come home tonight?

Good luck on the exposure, that is the first step on saving your marriage, with out it you have NO hope

We know you can do it!

When do I confront him and her? Before or after? I am going to expose tonight.

Also he's gong to be mad. He's going to think I'm mad. Which I am but not so mad I want to end the marriage over it. How to I make him understand I still want to be together. He's not going to want to be around me I'm sure. Thiis may give him his push to get an apt.if he didn't do that already. Haven't talked to him since he didn't come home last night.

Okay, just got caught up. My, my, my. I don't believe I've ever seen such a resistent betrayed spouse in my time on this board. Okay, wait - there was the BS who finally, after going through about three months of denial, put a recording device under his marital bed and caught his wife having sex with her lover. Is that what you're waiting for?

What, you've been told for weeks now that your H is having an A. You've insisted that couldn't possibly be the case. Come ON - sleeping on her couch??? That's one of the older ones in the book!


You've been told how to get intel you need to expose and kill the A and you've refused.

Then you whip out an OW that you should have mentioned in the FIRST POST. Help us help you!

Your H is a typical wayward. They all speak the same language. You have got to expose and kill this A if you have any hope of saving your M. Please listen to the posters and do what we say!

This morning I let him know how hurt I was that he is staying at another womans house. A warning maybe of what is going to come tonight. I'm not going to expose to people he is having an affair I am simply going to tell them the facts and let them come to those own conclusion. Which everyone will make the same conclusion you all do. This way I am not accusing.
He is insisting that he needs space. He is blaming me. I know these are all signs. He says I "won't let him get his own place" and "coming home is not an option because won't give him space" and that's why he needs to sleep on her couch.

Any ideas on the exposure?

I do want to listen to you all. He has been careful though. He's not going to let on that he's having an affair. Or show it in public. I would imagine even if I had his phone he has deleted and evidence. And deleted any emails. He's not stupid. And he will continue with his that was the only place I could stay on her couch story. But if I expose that he has been sleeping at someone elses house and then people can make thier judgements.

I would avoid confronting him or his OW. That is for sure. They know they are having an affair, confrontation gets you nothing. When they come to YOU just state that "you know they are having an affair, you have enough proof to confirm that" don't give up how or what you know. Just state that "I will do what it takes to save my marriage. Would you like a cookie?"

Be a broken record.

You don't need to Justify anything.

Do you have your exposure list ready?

If you don't say "my husband is having an affair and is sleeping over her house." Then your exposure will not be affected, and your main goal is for it TO BE affected, because if you don't say "he is having an affair" your husband will lie and manipulate those you have told.

Good luck on the exposure, how are you working on getting her parents info?

I think I have my initial list together. Meaning those closest to us. Then I will branch out with more.

No luck with her parents. Not sure how I will get thier info. The only person who knows her as well as my h does is most definitely on their side. It's possible they are even encouraging it, I wouldn't be suprised atleast.

Have a lunch date with friend who confronted him tomorrow. She couldn't go today unfortunately so I think I will put off exposure one more day. Plus Thursday seems like a good day to do it.

Over the past six weeks since things got really bad the weekends have been better for the most part. He seems to be willing to come home on Thursday and then Monday or tuesday he leaves agian. His back an forth behavior.

By the way I think I can pin exactly when it became an affair. Or atleast when he realized it. It was probably an EA before that and he didn't realize it. But the distance continued to get worse an I could feel him slipping. I really don't think it was an PA before.

The more you put it off the more you are enabling his affair. Procrastinating in this situation would probably be the biggest mistake you can do in your life.

You have already set up that tonight you will expose, I suggest you do it tonight. You should have exposed like last week! Any longer will only damage your marriage, not make it better.

It doesn't matter if he's not "stupid". Waywards make a lot of mistakes because they are so addicted to contact and that occupies most of their thoughts.

So you keep thinking he is too smart to leave behind evidence and you keep telling him you are suspicious of OW. You keep doing the opposite of what posters have been telling you to do!

Oh, and I agree with Sapphire...I don't think your exposure is going to work if you don't use the word affair. Good luck!

I am just so confused.

Sometimes when I talk to him he seems like he wants to just come back to me. I know it's because he's in affair fog but why can't he realize it.

It's so frustrating.

I guess I should expose today but I just don't know. Im not ready to tell my parents this. Or his parents for that matter.

www.intelius.com

Type in her name and click on search. That will bring up her name and some associated names - you may luck out and her parents' names will come up. Especially if she's not married.

You can also try
www.pipl.com
www.spokeo.com

Goodluck Whattodo

These guys really know what there talking about - please just belt up and get stuck in. Your head will throb and your mind will whir but at some point things will calm down and make sense.

Just do it.

Good luck

Hitch

To whom are you going to expose? This needs to be done in a very methodical way, with NO WARNING TO THE AFFAIREES BEFOREHAND.
Exposure Targets:
Siblings of WH/OW
Parents of same
Employers if they are co-workers
Pastor
Aunts/Uncles/Cousins
All FB friends
Email address book
Any contacts in his cell phone

Bottom line: Expose to anyone you think will put pressure on the adulterers to end the A. You do it all at once, not one person this day, another person that day.

You need to have a set 'spiel,' be it in letter or spoken, to the effect of:
I have horrible news - WH is having an A with POSOW. I have gathered evidence of the A. I love my H and I need your help in ending this awful affair. They have been together since X date. I have evidence of the affair if you wish to see it.

I know some other posters have samples of written exposure letters to fit the audience, whether it is for FB, family or work. Hopefully they can jump in here and show you some examples of what to say.

Do not trickle the exposure out - word will leak out to the infidels and they will have time to spin the story, to-wit: "Mom, I've got to tell you - remember that guy I met not too long ago? Well, his wife has been going off the deep end lately and I've been trying to be a supportive friend to him. Now she's found out that he's been talking to me, and she's running around like a lunatic, telling everyone we're having an affair! Can you imagine!?"

Nuclear exposure. All at once, before they know what hit them.

Yea I couldn't find her on any websites. Unforetunately.

Did you try the three I listed?

I have a short list of those closest to us. I don't have any proof to show them. That's part of my problem. That and I'm just not like this. I am having a really hard time finding the courage. I know it sounds so lame but and I have to do this to save my marriage but its going to be really hard for me.

That's why I want to meet my friend and talk to her first tomorrow. Meanwhile maybe it would help if I write out exactly what I want to say. Can this be a mass email? Or should I call certain people?

I will definitely call my parents.

Yea no luck.

I wouldn't expose without proof. Why have you refused to snoop as we advised?

Before you will take any advice from your friend, ask yourself, what kind of experience does she have in the area of infidelity? How many situations like yours has she solved?

I will say that because I got very bad advice from other people although the intentions were good. Usually they do have not even slightest idea how to actually kill the affairs.

What makes MB so powerful is that people here have in real life experience and can tell you what will work based on their personal experience.

Please, please - do not take some "you shouldnt make WS mad, it'll drive him further away" advice, it is absolute crap and it won't help you. I took it and it cost me many months of false recovery.

I want to talk to her because she confronted husband last week. He wouldn't tell me what she said. All he has told me is "all my married friends tell me to suck it up and be with my wife" and all my single friends tell me to leave. I don't know if he is referring to her as a married friend. But after she talked to him he had a slight change of heart somewhat. So I want to find out what she said and what she knows.

When we were talking this weekend he said I dont want to end up like (insert name of coworker who is much older divorced and has been by himself ever since) so in some ways he knows he has no future with ow.

I actually think he is doing worse than me. He is really stressed and miserable and never happy. And since this friends husband works closely with my husband I am hoping she might have some insight. And I will bring up to her that he has been sleeping at OW house on occasion and see what she thinks.

I also have some of his Coworkers who I have become friends with who I want to try and meet with because they hate OW long before any of this happened. I'm sure they would help me out too.

Obviously I didn't expose yesterday. But he actually came home. We had dinner together than I left him alone the rest of the evening. He says he wants space. I will give him space for now.

Please tell me you will still expose no matter what this "Friend" say's?

Yea I will still be exposing. I'm just talking to her because I feel like she knows something more than I do about the situation.

She knew a little more. And her and her husband had kinda come to the same conclusion. But like me they don't have any proof. She said that OW got an earful when she confronted him. OW was there along with other friends of his who didn't know or hear anything only OW did. She said she thought that maybe he had been sleeping at OW house but she didnt know for sure til I told her. I told her where OW lives too. Shes going to be on the look out for me for any info.

She said she told my husband that no one else would put up with him and he said I know.

She said it doesn't matter whether it's an affair or not but he's giving the allusion of an affair either way. Which is just as bad.

She asked if her husband could do anything.

Anyway. I feel better.

Now for exposure.

I think this is enough. You have a ally with this woman. Expose.

for exposing!! Good LUCK!

I need some help with exposure. I didn't have the guts last night and I don't want to wimp out agian.

k lets do the pre-exposure checklist:

__Exposure list with contact info
__Notes of what you will say
__Telephone
__Email
__Several hour block of time to do this in uninterrupted.

Now, sit down breathe, and start at the top, and work your way down.

Do not answer any calls from your husband or OW.

When your husband eventually confronts you just say "I know you are having an affair. I will do what it takes to save my marriage because I love you. Would you like some cookies?"

That's it.

You are a broken record.

You can do this!

When they ask you how you know, what are you going to say?

I ended up having a great conversation with some friends and let them all know what's on my mind. These were people on the list who are all with me. I'm not giving up on exposure but I feel all better tonight.

The longer you wait on exposing the longer you are enabling the affair.

Do you want your husband back or not? If you do then finish with the exposing do not trickle exposure that will not be so affective, you have to hit EVERYONE all in ONE day! My husband exposed my affair on FACEBOOK if you have to do that then do so.

Please just remember that you are doing this to save your family.

Exposure was VERY hard for me... It was the BEST thing I could have EVERY done. I wish I had done it sooner and I wish I had done it better even now. I did not finish the exposure to EVERYONE on OW FB page like I should have... But I know now.

NO mater what is said you are doing the right thing. No matter what is said EXPOSE to everyone on their lists, everyone you know dont leave a soul out that has influence and knows them it makes a difference.

This one's not going to make it. Good luck.

The people I talked with are going to be the people who can influence him. I "exposed" to everyone on my list that would actually have some sort of influence on him. He has completely shut down to these people. Despite many attempts to talk to them he has refused to talk to them. I think he is miserable. But he is also the type that is not going to listen to people or even do the opposite if they tell him what to do. But they will be putting pressure on him. Now I need to figure out how to convince him of NC. He is of course going to stick with the were just friends deal. I am beginning to think it might only be an EA but not sure. The big thing that needs to happen is no contact. I realize that maybe I have not done exposure to the fullest but I am not going to go on his facebook and tell every one of his friends. I have no access to her friends or family. I actually was thinkg of contacting her myself or having another friend do so and let her know that everyone knows.

Even if she is 'just a friend' (if he choses to use that excuse) she is not a friend to your marriage. You should not tolerate any friend of his that isn't a friend to your marriage.

If he is willing to destroy his marriage for a friendship, then they are not 'just friends'.

Marriage>friendship.

Any other equation means death for your marriage.

He may rant and rave about it being unfair and them being just friends. Tell him you will not stay in a marriage where someone who is just a friend can threaten it, and you see her as a threat.

Fwiw, I hired a PI and found out everything I needed to know in a matter of about five hours.

Exposure without any concrete proof imho isn't good. Please get some proof. Real proof.

VRE's are good. How about installing a keylogger? You have to do something.

If it smells like a pig, oinks like a pig, it's a pig.
And a ws pig stinks! But you have to remain in charge. That means proof, a plan, and tact.

What plan exactly are you using? Do you know carrot and stick of plan A/B? I mean, if my H were spending the night with some chick "on the couch" I'd be sure he wasn't on the couch. Who do you think this guy is confiding in? The ow that's who. Please wake up.

Yes this is where I am at.

He has one foot out the door though. And I think he has this fear that now I get to choose who he's friends with. And that he's not allowed to have friends that I don't approve of. But I should come first. And he's not putting me first.

I don't want to lose him.

That's right - you do get to chose who he is friends with. He should not have friends you don't approve of.

That is marriage.

He isn't marriage material.

You don't want to keep him at the expense of your marriage, because eventually you will hate him.

Either he becomes marriage material or you have to cut your losses. Staying in a marriage with an adulterer who feels entitled to his Independent Behavior is no way to raise children.

I think he wants to come home and work things out. Some of his actions show me that he does. But he says he is trying to decide if he wants to work things out. It's like he agrees that we were happy in the past.

And he needs to figure out how he feels. And I havent given him enough space to make the decision. And he has to not be at the house because he can't make a decision with me there pressuring him. So leaving the house is his only option. Only I feel like his "friend" is influencing his decision also. Which of course she is. But with him with a foot out the door already i am afraid if I force no contact it will only make things worse.

I just don't know what to do anymore. He is a very difficult person to deal with sometimes but I love him and I want to work through that.

We've told you what to do. Put a VAR in his car, try to get access to his phone, hire a PI. Get hard evidence of his affair. You don't KNOW what the results of snooping will be. You think you're not going to get anything but you wont even bother to try. If you don't try you FOR SURE won't get anywhere, but if you try you have a CHANCE of getting something.

He CAN'T 'figure out how he feels'. He is physically incapable of doing so while he is in his affair.

He can't make decisions WHILE HAVING AN AFFAIR. It has nothing to do with your pressure and everything to do with the fact that he wants 2 women meeting his needs and will do everything he can to string you along.

You got to stop being governed by your fear. Your fear is going to end your marriage.

You force NC and you get 2 possible results:
Your husband goes NC, you have a chance to rebuild.
Your husband doesn't go NC.

Now here you can either stay in the marriage or leave. If you leave, the marriage is over. If you stay without NC, the marriage is ALSO over because a marriage isn't 2 people + your husbands girlfriend.

There is only one option that leads to a CHANCE to have a happy marriage.

You're scared to move because you want a guarantee. Sorry, hon, there are no guarantees. Sometimes you gotta leap and hope. But I can promise you this - what you are doing right now is the BEST way to ensure the end of your marriage. You are enabling a cake-eating adulterer.

You can't work through it if you won't even take the first steps.

He is having an affair. He is incapable of making choices, and you're sitting around hoping he'll do the right thing, afraid to make a move certain that you'll push him over the edge.

If this marriage ends, it won't be because you pushed him over the edge, it will be because he decided to leave it and party with his OW.

What, do you realize that only a few people are posting trying to help you? It's starting to get frustrating trying to help someone who just sits in a puddle bemoaning the fact that they don't know what to do. It's starting to feel like a waste of time.

I want your marriage to succeed, but there's only so many times I can repeat the same advice. YOU are the one that has to act. You know what to do but you let your fear drown out your conviction to act.

Really there's not much else I can tell you.

Snoop.
Do a full exposure with hard evidence.
Plan A.
Demand your husband end his affair.
If he doesn't Plan B.

That is the path, that's what you've been told to do from Day 1. Your circumstance isn't special or different, the advice given to everyone else applies to you.

Your future is in YOUR hands if you'd have the courage to act.

IF he does not go NC with her you will be in a false recover and there is no point for him to come home and work on the marriage.

Sorry its either NC or end the marriage.

The beauty of MB is that it gives YOU, the BS, a plan...so that you don't have to respond/react to the waffling WS's antics...

Have you told him that you exposed his A to everyone? Have you asked him for NC? <-----If not, these are two things that I would do today.

When your H spews fogbabble such as "You need to give me more space to make a decision", you say, "No, I need you to end your A and tell me if you intend to come back home and agree not to see OW anymore. I expect a yes/no answer by the end of the day." And then you leave the room.

This is all part of Plan A. If he refuses to do this, I would move to Plan B. Make OW meet all of his needs and remove yourself from the dynamic.

Are you ready to start putting the MB plans to work for you? If you keep following your cake-eating H's plans, we can't help you.

He was pretty mad when I told him I had told people. Said it was none of their business. Then I asked NC. And he went pretty ballistic. I also told her that everyone knew. He's keeping up the friends thing and that she was the one of two people nice enough to let him stay at their house despite several people told me they had offered him. And now I have ruined his friendship with her. I said you could have never been friends with her and been with me because your "friendship" was getting in the way of our marriage. We talked for a while but most of it he was pissed during. Said he was leaving and had found an apartment. During all this he told me he loved me for the first time in how long. Also said he was trying to make his decision because sometimes love is not enough. Before he had said he didn't love me anymore. Then said he was going to drink his self into oblivion. He didn't come home of course. I have no idea where he's staying. I sent him an email explaining everything calmy how I felt. The talk was pretty emotional. I didn't get angry really just upset. So I sent the calm email and he said it was unfair for me to get upset and irrational and then send a calm logical email. Then he was like where am I supposed to stay now blah blah. I said the house is always here. Yet he didn't come home.

He is very angry and it is probably over but like everyone said it was over anyway.

He tried to tell me he was deciding if he should leave me or be miserable with me. He couldn't see himself ever being happy with me but he was trying to decide if he would stay with me anyway. And he was trying to make a logical decision and not let his emotions get in the way.

I just re read my post from last night. Sorry if it did not make sense. I was a little emotional. Still am but better today.

He asked me this morning. What am I supposed to do now.

I am confused...asked you what?

blessing

Tell him to go NC and get his family back. That is the only thing he can do. Unless he wants to live his life a miserable old man.

Sorry he asked what he is supposed to do now this morning. He is very angry.

What you're not making much sense.

Of course he's angry, you're growing a spine and working to end his affair.

He'll get over it.

Your marriage can survive his anger, it cant survive a continuing affair.

If he is asking what you want him to do, insist on NC, no more sleepovers and he comes home to work on the relationship.

I asked him for NC. And I spoke to OW. He said I ruined his friendship with OW by going to talk to her. He didnt agree to NC just said that she wasn't going to talk to him anymore which is ridiculous of course she will still be "friends" with him.

But he did not exactly agree to NC.

You're right on the miserable old man thing. He knows it too. He won't ever find anyone else.

Great, have him write a NC letter. Then YOU send it to OW. Block her number from your phones.

From what I understand here he is NOT willing to go NC is that right?
blessing

Exactly he did not agree to NC.

Block her FB, and phone numbers on all of the phones, even block her email. Do you have a keylogger already installed just in case he creates another FB/email to contact her? If not I would do so before he comes home.

If contact is still there after he comes home, I suggest you go to plan B.

I need to bone up on my reading comprehension.

Regardless, he'll get over his anger.

No I need to think before I post. I'm not making sense. I'm a little bit of a wreck and trying to work at the same time.

He did not agree to NC.

He was sarcastically asking what he should do. He knows I want him to come home and work things out I've made that very clear even this morning.

He is angry and confused. But I hope that he does realize that NC is crucial.

He did some name calling last night. Said I wasn't worth it. That kind of stuff. I told him I wasn't going to call him names or anything.

It doesn't seem like he will ever get over it but it hasn't been that long.

He just told me he didn't go to work. I guess he is really upset. But I doubt he wants me around. I think I will ask anyway.

What,
Are you still looking for advice/help or are you just venting here? I can't tell...

Both

He was very upset. Not angry but upset. He said he didn't think he could do this. I tried to stay calm I got a little emotional. We both just sat there and talked. For almost two hours. Than finally he quit talking and I just tried to comfort him. He didn't tell me to leave or shrug me away. We just sat there in silence. Then I left. I said I will stay if you want but he didn't respond so I left. Things seem really bad. I don't know if I will be able to do plan A. I feel like he may still be trying to get space.

Any advice on plan A. I didn't bring up NC because it seems like he is going to do it. And he thinks everyone hates him. I assured him that I do not hate him and that I love him and I want to make our relationship better.

Hes afraid that if he comes back. It will eventually go bad agian and we will be back where we are.
I tried to tell him that we would come out stronger but he doesn't want to believe. He still thinks I want tochange him.

So any advice on plan A when partner is so closed off. I think forcing him makes things worse. Even if I'm doing nice things for him he says he appreciates them but doesn't want me to do it. That he just wants space. It may be to late to give him space but I guess I should.

Well, you do need him to change. He isn't marriage material right now. He's a renter at best. You have an uphill battle before you.

Why do you keep insisting on giving him space?

Have you learned nothing here? Have you read nothing? If you've read threads around here, what has given you the idea that space will fix this? After countless posts telling you space is a bad idea why do you keep clinging to it as your salvation?

How do you Plan A when he's closed off? You make a plan.

What are his needs? List them. Make a list of how you can meet them. EVERY day do something off of that list. Whenever you are with him, speak pleasantly and lovingly.

When he talks about the relationship you say "I know you are having an affair, our marriage will not survive with 3 people involved. I cannot discuss our relationship until you go NC with OW. Would you like a cookie?"

Quit with the space talk, that is not your solution.

Te reason I keep going to that is he says that's what he needs.

But I will be doing plan A as much as possible anyway.

Only because he can do what ever he wants with out seeing you suffer.

Separated + WS = VERY BAD FOR A MARRIAGE

Together + NC = VERY GOOD FOR A MARRIAGE

He needs to be in the home while you are in Plan A.

Right now you have no plan you are in Plan C (compromise) and that plan will lead to a divorce.

He'll also say he needs a second lover, right? Would you give him that?

SPACE is not one of the emotional needs that requires being met in order to be in love. SPACE is an anti-EN. I'd say it guarantees a result of NOT being in love. If that is what you want, then by all means...give him space.

No, he's saying that because it is what he WANTS. He wants to be able to come home to you and play husband and then go to OW and get some from her too.

Space gives him the opportunity to get 2 women meeting his needs.

You need to stop listening to the crazy coming from his lips. Stop letting your actions be governed by him, because he doesn't have your best interest or the interest of your marriage at heart.

YOU take control.

Plan A gives you control.

Read this thread

Scotty is amazing. You could learn from her.

Ditto!!! Plan B and D. R is extremely difficult and is a long road to walk. No kids, short marriage...don't waste more years on this guy.

What -

Either follow the advice here or file for divorce. If you keep doing plan "C" (Compromise with your WH), you'll just end up divorced anyway. You don't really have much left to lose at this point.

aBetterMe

I'm going to do plan A. When I got home I had planned on making dinner something he likes. But he wasn't here. He had just left though. Not long before I got home. And he didn't take a bag from what I can tell. I think I will have some cookies in the oven when he gets here. And a revealing nightgown.

Since he is sleeping in another room already and is very cold shoulder when I attempt to plan A is there any advice you can give me. I want to save this.

1. Hope you are ready to be exposed to HIV, STD's of all kinds. Your H is having an affair with another woman who may have given him any number of nasty sexually transmitted diseases. Are you willing to risk your health to keep him?

2. You are reinforcing his bad behavior.....he can cheat on you and you bake cookies and try to seduce him. Says loud and clear "I need you so much you can treat me horribly and I'll come back for more and even do it while you cheat on me." Doesn't bode well for how he thinks he can treat you in the future.

Why, why why are you so willing to settle for so little? This is not the best nor the last man on earth.

1. I seriously doubt it will end in sex. But SF is on top of his EN and looking good for him can't hurt.

2. Itold him to go NC. I thought the point of Plan A was to show him how wonderful I am regardless of if he agrees to NC. And during that time o set up Plan B. Am I missing something here?

So he called me wondering where I was he had gone to my office. I had stayed a little later than usual not that he knows what usual is anymore since he's usually not home when I get home. But I said I was home. Not sure why he went to my office but when i asked of he wanted dinner he said hed heat something up when he gor home and he would be home later.

No relationship talk when he gets home right? Just confirm that he needs NC and Plan A.

WTD, I think your exposure has interfered with the affair. So that's good news. If you want to continue Plan A while you give him a little bit of time to decide on NC, I think that's OK.

But I would make it very clear that you aren't going to tolerate the "affair" any longer and tell him that you are willing to forgive him and work on the M but that he must commit to NC and move back home.

Don't argue it with him. Tell him that's what you are offering to him and he needs to give you a yes/no answer (no wiggle room).

If he continues to deny it and/or won't agree to NC, I am going to strongly recommend you swiftly move to Plan B.

Susie, that's kinda where I'm at right now. And my thoughts too. Yes the exposure shook it up. And me going and telling her to her face that I had exposed shook it up even more. I wish I could have exposed to her family but didn't have any info for them.

He wasn't definitely in a bad emotional state today. Not sure if it was because of losing OW or what. He made is seem like he was upset because it was over between us but he has been saying it's over several times and never reacted like this. Then when he said everyone hates me. He said I have been trying to figure out what I want you won't give me space and now everyone hates me. And I reassured him I didn't hate him.

But on with Plan A...

Then if no change Plan B.

Good girl. Don't feed into his fogbabble. Become a broken record. "I have hope for our M but you need to end the affair and move back home."

Don't argue. Stand your ground. Remember, you are the cool collected one with a plan and a whole forum of people on your side. He is the confused one, grasping for straws.

He is going to try really hard to keep BOTH of you (this is what he means when he talks about "space").

WS: I need more space, you keep trying to control me.
WhatToDO: You having more space doesn't work for me anymore. It was a mistake for me to agree to that. I've told you what I need for this to work. Let me know your decision by the end of the night.

Hang in there.

I think I can be a broken record.
He came home. I gave him his cookies. And was super nice.

GREAT!

Now, don't expect that Plan A will change his mind. It probably won't. The goal of Plan A is to show him you can be a good wife. It will wear you down quick so only do this for a few weeks.

Make sure you do something for yourself each day. Something to lift your spirits.

Eventually you will have to start planning a Plan B. You have to accept this may not work. Plan B may not work, but either way your marriage wont work if he's having an affair and this process will make YOU a better person.

In Marriage Builders terminology, an Emotional Need is not "something you say you need." It is a craving that, when met, makes you feel in love with the person meeting it. It is not something you need in order to be happy or something you need in order to live or something you need in order to be a whole person or whatever. It is something you need in order to be in love with the person providing it.

I guess Plan A is just hard. I feel like all I get is cold shoulder. Do I continue to do it even if he doesn't respond. It's all about making him remember me in a good way right?

Yes, continue even if you get no response. In fact DEPEND on getting no response. DEPEND on the fact that there will be little impact.

Plan A is abusive to you, which is why you can only do it for a few short weeks before you go to Plan B to protect yourself.

Have you read Scotty's thread?

Yes I read a lot of it. It was helpful.

I don't have kids of course. If I had kids it would be so much easier. I do have something on my side. He loves me and cares for me. I know it. I can feel it. He also does not want people knowing our personal business. This is all guilt of course and wanting his cake. And I exposed now. Atleast to people who will pressure him. I know exposure is really important.

I guess I should start thinking about Plan B. I know Plan A is short term. I think I could handle Plan A for a while as long as I was getting some support I may need to use the board to vent though.

Any ideas on good Plan A stuff.

I am wondering should I act like everything is ok. What I mean is we have hardly even had a meal together in weeks. If I cook dinner for him I have no idea if he will show up. If I invite him he will likely say no or I have other plans. If I make a special dinner and say dinners at 8:00 I'm cooking blank. He might be inclined to show up. But he also may be peeved that I assumed he would join me for dinner.

We have always spent our evenings together watching tv. Since he's wanted "space" he says the reason he doesnt come home is because I don't leave him alone. Should I watch tv with him? Or be glad he is home and not at OW and leave him alone. I know you all say I shouldn't give him space. But I feel if I don't give him space at home he will just leave to get his "space."

I will walk around the house though looking good I think. If SF what he wants I will dress to attract him.

We are supposed to be having friends staying at our house this weekend. He said he would tell them they could stay but he wouldn't be there. I am going to contact friends myself I think as he hasn't told me if they are or not and he seems to not have plans of moving out yet. Unless he's keeping it from me somehow. He would have to come to me about the money issue of deposit on apt if he was moving out. I handle finances so.

But I need to keep telling myself No relationship talk. That will be very hard for me. Any ideas on how to remind myself to shut it.

So we are still having everyone stay at our house. I talked with the friend let him know exactly what was going on. I had already told him some about sleeping at her house and all. But WH will be forced to sleep in our bed. Or the floor. And we will have a bunch of people staying at the house.

He is so mad at me that I have talked to people. I know this is par for the course but I feel like it's making things worse. But I do know it had to be done.

He tried to tell me that OW is not the bad person. And that she thinks we should go to counseling. This is all a lie right?

I tried to steer the conversation away from relationship talk. And I didn't give in to his angry outburst last night. I stayed calm told him how much I love him and that I want to work things out an make things better.

Then this morning he wasn't up yet and I knew he was running late so I very nicely went to wake him up and he seemed more at ease. I think deep down he REALLY wants to get our marriage back to good. We talked briefly and unlike his anger and outburst last night it was quite nice. Kinda like a what are we doing to ourselves let's just fix this type thing.

He said he was still mad and doesn't understand why I feel like I need to tell the world. Remember he is still putting up the friend front. He's way more confused and conflicted than me. It's all really wearing on him.

I have hope though. Plan A seems to be working. I was so nice to him when he was angry with me. He couldn't help but notice. I think he was trying to push my buttons and I didn't give in I didn't get angry or upset. No crying or anything. A huge step for me. I think that this weekend will be a huge opportunity for me to plan A. He won't be able to run off and I will be able to implement Plan A. Even though there will be other people there it is people I trust.

Well, any woman who climbs into bed with a married man is a skank. They try to alleviate their guilt by encouraging their Married Man to get help. Makes them feel better. It's about par for the course.

Sounds like you're doing great on Plan A. Hard to fight with someone who won't fight back. Stay loving and work to meet his needs. It will get better. Either he will improve, or eventually you will go Plan B.

You just tell him when he asks why "Our marriage is important to me and I will do what it takes to save my marriage". That's all the answer he needs.

His affair is what is confusing and conflicting him. He needs to go NC.

The amazing thing about Plan A. It puts YOU in control of your life. It is empowering.

You've bade a good start. Now just keep it up.

Remember, part of Plan A is taking care of yourself as well. What are you doing for yourself right now?

She probably does feel guilty. And H was like she's not the enemy and all this stuff. I didn't argue though. He knows how I feel about her I made it very clear. But telling him to go to counseling is the exact opposite of her getting mad at him for not making a decision or allowing him to stay at her house.

Yes NC for sure. But he has not, yet.

I have been a broken record. Our marriage is important, I love you, I want to work things out, I want to be in love with you agian, I want to be the way we were. I say all of these things when he asks why.

Plan A is so much better than getting upset everytime he gets angry. Ive tried to ignored the outbursts somewhat. I know he doesn't mean it it's just his anger. So I turn it around and am super nice.

Um. I have been focusing on meeting his needs mostly. I have done pretty good the last couple days I think. He even came home straight from work yesterday. But I already had plans(plans that I had invited him to and he declined) so I did my thing which was fun. I did something FUN for myself not him.

I do plan on trying to go shopping for myself. I have a gift card that I got a while back and haven't used.

Also with our friends coming in it will be a good time to just have fun. No thinking about what's wrong or how to fix it. That will be a good thing for us both I think. I can show him why we fell in love in the first place.

She might have said that, but her intentions is only for her selfishness, knowing she is sleeping around with a married man and now people know (the guilt is hitting her). My OM kept saying "go to counseling, if it doesn't work out you can always come back to me" or "Do it for the kids, I don't want you to leave you husband for me, I want you to know for sure that you can't fix it." BLA BLA BLA BLA

It is only for them knowing they are not breaking up a family (GUILT), they will say "try to fix your marriage" but there is always an "AND" or a "BUT" like.."And if things don't work out my door is always open" ..."but if your feelings doesn't change in 5 months then my door is always open." etc..

It doesn't surprise me that your husband is mad about you exposing that is actually a really good sign, if you wanted to see how I acted when wheels exposed you'd think your husband was a saint.

Ok Question.

So last night since I wasn't home H decided to go out to eat for dinner. I have no idea with I can only assume it was OW and/or other friend. But said he would be home not too late. But when I called and talked to his friend he wasn't very happy with me. So I guess he decided to stay out longer. When I got to be late I worried. His phone was dead which he had told me it was almost dead. So I call OW phone to see if he's with her. She didn't answer. I tried twice and nothing. He ended up coming home soon after. So I guess she told him I had called today and he was kinda pissed. I said I was worried bc I didn't know where you were.

Is it ok for me to contact her on Plan A? I think I am going to tellhim he needs to let me know where he is going and when he'll be back to prevent me calling her. But I shouldn't have to tell him this and I know my nagging gets on his nerves. I was concerned and I had no idea if he was coming home or not.

That is not what plan A is about at all.

NO LB
Meeting his needs
Being the wife he wants

AND

here is the big one..

Having NO expectations!

Ok so no calling her. Got it. No expectations one is hard. He's pretty much treating me like I don't exist. Will hardly acknowledge my presence.

I need to vent a little so I don't go crazy...

So we went out with our friends who are in town. We are in the bar and some reps from a liquor come in giving away free stuff if you buy shots. We had a single guy with us. The other guys, WH and friend, encourage single guy to flirt with girls to get free stuff and he buys a shot and gets some free junk.

Then they were giving away some small stuff keychains and stuff and WH snags one. Then WH was about to buy a shot to get something else when his friends gf runs over to them, rather all of the sudden, they had been there for a few minutes trying to buy the shot so they could get their goodies, and starts getting pissed at her bf for flirting with girls.

Now let me say, I was watching the whole thing. The only one flirting by any means was single guy. WH and friend were just trying to get free stuff. It was obvious.

So I go up to friend and he knows what's going on he is best friend of my husband. He was kinda upset so I tried to cheer him up. I wanted so badly to say even if it was flirting its way better than sleeping at another womans house but it was not the right time or place. Then I notice WH talking to the gf and after she looked not nearly as pissed. I asked WH what he said and he said don't worry about it. I assume he just explained that he wasn't flirting at all. I offered to go buy a shot to get them their goody but apparently all the fun was gone we left the bar and found somewhere else. We ended up having a good time over all the whole night.

I wanted really badly to be closer to H the entire time but I tried to just hang out as a group and have fun. I tank it's important for me to have fun and show him I'm having a good time with him. And he was definitely having fun. So that was good.

Oh and we were in the car with friend. Somehow laundry mat came up and WH was talking about going one time. And his friend who used to be his roommate was like 'you never did your laundry' or something and then was saying how WH always went to his parents house to get laundry done. Than I said something like yeah I think WH has done laundry like 3 times since I've known him and we were all laughing and joking then WH was like well I'll just find someone else to do my laundry then. I think it was a joke but it was hard to tell. I mean what I said really was a joke. We are always poking fun at each other among our friends. But anyway friend was uncomfortable then and changed the subject luckily.

It will be interesting to see how the weekend unfolds. I hope that H will have fun and OW won't be around at all and he won't be able to sneak off to her so that's good.

Anyway. Time for bed I should have gone to sleep instead of writing this but I needed to get it out because it annoyed me.

Plan A is not forever if he doesn't change while you are doing a GOOD plan A for about 6 weeks then plan B is the next plan of action

I am not very good at this Plan A stuff.

He just doesn't want me around him. He does everything he can to avoid me. I broke and stomped off yesterday. I didn't think he even noticed then he pulled me aside and was like what was that all about. I explained and he was mad of course. I forgot no expectations part.

I can't seem to keep it together. I will try and get the plan A back in order.

He said he is so pissed that I told people at his work that he may never want to be with me because of it. That he's thnking of finding a new job and he doesn't see how we could ever hang out with the people again. Is this all WH talk?

I need to make myself some kind of reminder to stay on plan A. Anyone have any suggestions for things they have done?

Ahhhhh

Why does he have to be such an idiot. This is not the man I married.

He had to go in to the office today. He calls me about 15 min after he left and said there was a problem but that he was going to go out and do something because he didn't want to be at the house, of course.

So I call him an hour or so later. I had something to ask him and I figured if I heard background noise I know hes somewhere public and don't really give a flip if she's there. No answer so I go to her house for a drive by he's there of course I get a picture. Sometime while driving he texted me to find out what I wanted when I called. I answered and we texted back and forth and I asked what he was doing and was going to ask if he wanted dinner. He answered drinking a beer but not where of course and I didn't ask. He said he wasn't going to work and he'd be home soon. I just replied I'd start making something for dinner. So here I am sitting at home doing his laundry for him and cooking his dinner while he's off with OW. I'm hoping to catch him in a lie so I can document that he lied to me.

He has to go out of town tomorrow and he hasn't seen her since wed night since we had friends in town. So he probably was taking his opportunity to see her before he left.

K I just needed to get that off my chest so I didn't blow up at him when he got home.

Plan A. No expectations. I need to keep reminding myself.

Not only do you need to keep calm and cool right now, you need to get your ducks lined up for Plan B. I know how hard it is to pull off a spectacular Plan A while you KNOW that your WS is with OP. It KILLS.

I am sorry, I haven't read all of your thread, I am assuming that you have exposed to everyone already right? Have you figured out what the top ENs are of your WH. You need to know what the top 2-3 are so you can meet those, meeting the lower ones would be ineffective without meeting the higher ones first.

What you need to remember about being in Plan A is that you are doing things to become the spouse you have always wanted to be. You are focusing on meeting needs of your spouse, but also being the best you that is possible.

What "no expectations" means in Plan A, is that the things that you do don't hang on the things your wayward does. You do things because it is what YOU would do being a great spouse.

So what do you think his top 2 ENs are? What do you do to meet those? What LBs have you been guilty of committing in the past and how have you tried to not commit those again? It takes a lot of work, but it is so worth it.

Yes I exposed. And he is very unhappy about it.

I never had hard evidence so he is still keeping up his just friends cover. And Whether it is a PA or not it doesn't matter He's crossed a line and he put her before me. He's very un willing to do anything to make it work. I've tried.

I think his top EN are 1. SF and probably would put domestic support but maybe admiration too. I have tried to meet his needs as best I can right now. He seems like he doesn't want me to be trying sometimes but I know deep down he's glad. For instance he will make note that he needs so and so washed for whatever and I will say I'll go start a load of laundry then. He'll saying something like no don't worry about it I will do it. One time I was in the middle of something else when this happened. I expected him to go start a load of wash. He didn't and I ended up doing it later. I know he doesn't want to do laundry or anything.

As far as LBs I have tried to not be angry. He's noticed it too. He has asked why I am being so calm. He said one time this isn't you this isn't how you are. I trod to explain to him that I was trying to stay calm and not get angry.

I feel like the one I am having a hard time with is judgment. I know that this is a big one for him. I am trying to not be judgmental.

Just do plan A as long as you can, and once you get to the point where you can't handle it anymore then that is when you go to plan B.

I suggest you start preparing yourself for it.

Of course he is pissed. You turned over a rock and exposed his affair. He knows that he isn't doing the right thing or he would of told everybody already.

The old timers can explain Exposure better than I can, but my take on it is that it does two things. The first thing that it does is tell the WS that there is a boundary that WS has crossed and you won't tolerate it. The second thing your telling WS, is that you will do anything to protect your marriage.

For myself whenever I hear this FogBabble, I say "I love you. I'm protecting our relationship. I Love you." You might want to give that mantra a try. BTW, after saying above several times it stopped the babble. Instead I got new babble. "How that protecting working out." So I responded with silence.

I think that this does two things. It doesn't feed their anger and it focuses them to thinking about the US part. What you're doing is deflecting there thought to where they need to be, on what your doing to save your marriage. That is what the Plan A is all about.


You need to catch yourself before this happens. Remember Plan A is for your Giver to be forefront for all your time you spend with your WS. Your Taker needs to be here talking about your needs. Vent here. Not at your WS. Don't talk to him about why you stomped off. Little white lie never hurt. You're fighting for your marriage. If you let your Taker be in charge, all it will do is stomp off.

Yes I was not in control. I have done a pretty good job of controlling my taker most of the time but not the other day. I did get it back together though after that. We will see what happens when he gets back.

I talked with wife of who he is taking his bus trip with this week last night. She said her husband is pissed when he found out he was over at OWs house the night before they were leaving. Hopefully he finds a way to bring it up and tell him what an idiot he is being.

He tried to tell me how we will never be able to hang out with all the people I exposed to agian. Which is just stupid fog babble. The people I have talked to care about both of us and want to see our marriage succeed. He is just embarrassed by what he is doing I think.

Oh and he told me I need to stop calling his best friend. Apparently his best friend said something to him about not wanting to be involved in our problems. So whatever.

I just don't understand. He has to know what he is doing is wrong.

I guess I need to start thinking about Plan B...

Yes, you do. Start Planning your Plan B. It will help give you focus. It will help to know where your finish line is.

You can do this, hon. Just a little longer.

Yes. I can do this. I think this weekend was good for me. Other than my one little mistake. I made dinner for the 6 men staying in my house (WH included) It felt good for others to actually be appreciative since WH isn't. Since he will be gone I plan to do some pampering of myself. I am going to get back on my workout schedule which I have let slide the past few weeks. Also I found a bottle of wine while I was looking for something this weekend. I think I will open that up tonight and take a nice bubble bath and just relax. Then I will get started on Plan B planning. I need to come up with some more ideas for a really good Plan A too. I want to do this right and the best I possibly can.

good! Part of Plan A is to take care of yourself as much as possible, precisely because it is so draining.

There is a good thread by schoolbus on body language. I'll see if I can bump it for you.

Maybe this can help

Thanks for that. I think I unintentionally do alot of that stuff too.

I was thinking maybe I should send him a picture of myself. Sine he is going to be gone. It's not something I have done in the past Really. A few times when he's been out of town maybe. But just a thinking of you and sexy photo of me.

Don't know if he would think that was manipulative or not.

Does he pack a suitcase? Is there a way you can put the photo of you IN the suitcase? Maybe sprayed with your perfume. Maybe write a little note on the back.

It isn't manipulative for you to be a loving wife.

You're trying to show him that you are capable of meeting his needs.

If he feels manipulated, it's because of the guilt at treating his wife this way while having a girlfriend.

He already has his suitcase. It's in his car. This would hVe been good to think of before he left I guess. Will it be ok to email it later tonight? I might have to wait till I know he's in the hotel.

I was thinking of trying to leave a note on his car too but he will be leaving pretty soon so that might not work.

I need to take the picture and I dont think taking the picture at work would be very appropriate so when I get home and get my bath and wine going I'll take the picture and send it.

Sure thing! Sounds like a good idea.

I am so excited I can't wait to do this. I just hope it is received well.

None of that.

You do this as an opportunity to show your love for him. Success is measured by sending the message, not in his reception of it.

THIS is what no expectations means.

You're sending this because you love him, NOT to get him to come back to you and NOT to get him to change. In the end that is your goal, but THIS isn't going to do that.

Send it.

Do it for you.

As an expression of your love.

Do it so he knows that you're willing to care for him.

Don't do it expecting him to 'receive it well'.

Because he probably won't.

That's ok.

Do it anyways.

Ok. Thanks for setting me straight. I keep forgetting that part. I am still excited to do it though!!!

Just remember, you're doing this because it's right, not to change his mind. Say that again and again.

Have at it lady!

How about: I'm doing this because I love him and I don't expect ANYTHING in return. This is the wife I want to be.

Well... In Plan A - you can't expect anything in return, because he is wayward.

For your future, in this relationship when it is recovered, or any others that may occur, you meet needs because it is the right thing to do and you want to show love, but your needs must also be met for the same reason.

Plan A with no expectations isn't a way of life. It is abusive to you. That is why you are struggling so much. You can only do it for a few weeks, TOPS before you emotionally wear down.

Hence, the need for Plan B.

When recovery begins, then you will have needs you HAVE to have met for the health of the marriage.

So the wife you want to be: One who meets the needs of her spouse out of love and a desire to care, and one who gets her needs met because she is loved for and cared for.

Yea. I understand. The thing I've read though, and maybe I misinterpreted, that if I am meeting my spouses needs unconditionally he will be wanting to meet mine as well. This is of course not the case with a wayward spouse but I mean if I wasn't dealing with a WS. And maybe I should have found this place 6 months ago... I may have stopped the A from happening all together.

I am making plans to do a workout plan with my sister. We are going to lean on each other for support. I'm in pretty good shape. I've actually lost about 10 lbs in the last 2 months but that's because I've cut down on beer and I've been eating cereal for dinner. I am going to stop that now. I am going to start making dinner as I would if he were coming home to eat. Then I will say we are having blank for dinner it should be ready at x time. Than if he says I have other plans I can just save his portion and have it for lunch the next day. Plan B will be different of course but this is what I am going to do now.

When he sees that I am making fantastic dinners for myself and working out every morning and that I am taking care of myself. I want to look good for him and cook dinner for him.

The affair didn't happen just because you and your WH weren't meeting eachothers ENs. It happened because your WH has WEAK boundaries when it comes to members of the opposite sex.

If your WH doesn't come home for dinner because he is with his skank, the food does not get eaten by HIM.

You need to do a superb Plan A where you do both the carrot AND stick. Meet ENs, avoid LBs and put pressure on the affair.

What I think you misunderstood about meeting ENs is that when you are getting your ENs met, you tend to want to meet the other persons ENs as well. That happens in a healthy relationship. You are dealing with a wayward. You need to get a solid Plan A in for a few weeks and then go into Plan B.

Unconditional should not be in the marriage vocabulary.

Unconditional is a recipe for abuse. You meet his needs with love and care because you vowed to.

This typically encourages your spouse to reciprocate.

When it doesn't it becomes painful, and our Taker emerges to protect us.

Continuing to meet needs unconditionally leads to neglect and abuse and the death of the marriage.

There is nothing wrong with thoughtfully requesting your needs be met. You are not obligated to stay in a neglectful, abusive marriage.

You want to meet your husband's needs, and you want your needs to be met in an ideal marriage situation. There is a perfect balance of Giver and Taker.

That is why Plan A is short - because for a short while it is unconditional. But you can't sustain that. After a while you request that your needs are met, i.e. ending the affair and recommitting to marriage and recovery.

You can't do unconditional forever.

Yea I will eventually need my needs met also.

I know it is rare but what if he comes to his senses before Plan B and decides he is ready to commit to the marriage and recovery. Do I then ask that my needs are met also? I feel like if he were to come home from this trip and be like I've been an idiot I will go NC and I am commited to you. Then maybe I should continue plan A and very politely ask though maybe not right away but ease into my needs and ask that he meets them. Start with an easy one. I know he will not be open to reading books or going to therapy so I will need to find my own way of doing it.

Ok maybe that was expectations. Sorry. I will put that aside. Tonight I relax. Tomorrow I get to work. I think I might try and organize the house while yes gone clean up some crap that's been piling up. And make sure it's super awesome clean when he gets home.

Message delivered.

That was fun

.

Now go relax

I did relax. A bunch. Now I'm going to sleep. No response from my message yet but it doesn't really matter. He got it that's the important part. I'm going to sleep now. Getting up early. Can't let my sis down, gotta work out. And two glasses of wine affect me way more than they used to.

I feel pretty good tonight atleast.

So. He triedto tell me I was using sex to to cover up the issues. Then said that I have never done anything like that before. I just explained I thought it would cheer him up after a long day at work an that I was thinking about him. And just because I've never done it before doesn't mean I can't do it now. And I told the truth that I thought it was fun. He didn't respond after that. Now I have to deicide if I should do something tonight or not. Hmmm.

Also I think I will get started today on Plan B stuff. I needto get my letter nailed down.

Good for you!

Just told him the truth. You love him and want to make your marriage work. Hard to argue with that.

No need to fight.

Post your rough draft Plan B letter when you're done.

Will do. Going out after work with some friends but I am going to try an start drafting the letter during lunch. I think planning for Plan B will help me keep sain during Plan A. Plus I am actually finding that I like doing things for him. I want to make him happy. I really do. Yes I want something in return but that's not going to happen right now so I will reward myself for my efforts. I think I need to come up with a reward system for myself. Like if I have a good plan A day I get x amount of money to spend or if im good all week I get to go to the mall. And if I slip up maybe make a punishment.

That is the thing about having a plan - it empowers you. Dunno about the reward/punishment thing, but if it helps, then go for it. Knowing your end date for Plan A/start date for Plan B will help.

It is very empowering!!

Maybe the punishment is a bad idea but I should be rewarding anyway I think. I just want to come up with something.

I haven't decided on a specific date yet for Plan B. I want to Make sure I do a really good Plan A. I know some stuff says no more than 6 weeks. I don't know if I will be ready then. I really want Plan A to just work. I know I know it probably won't. But I have hope.

Any thoughts on something to do tonight. I could just send another picture but thinking I should do something different. Maybe this time do something not sex related. I could send a funny picture of the dogs If I can catch them in the act. Or a nice email.

Nice email.... or a picture of your dinner with a caption "This would taste so much better if you were here to share it with"... or maybe a little love poem.

Is there something you can link to from your past that is pleasant? A favorite restaurant, date, event? Something fun only you two shared together? Maybe incorporate that into it.

He told me I am trying to be someone I'm not because I think it is what he wants and that I won't be like that long term and he doesn't want me to change. Does this even make sense? Ahhhhh. Babble.

Babble. Ignore it and stick to your plan. You're changing to be a better you- that better you will be a better wife. This is as much for you as him.

You're doing good

Alright I'll just keep at it. He's coming home tonight. I think I am going to make some dessert and have it sitting there when he gets home. And the house will be completely clean. Then I'll slip into something comfortable and strut around the house.

lol, sounds like a plan.

I can't remember, what are his top needs?

SF domestic support and probably admiration too.

I just have a bad feeling he is going to go to her house first. Ughhh.

When I talked to him last night briefly he was telling me how it was so unlike me and he thought I was changing myself to make him happy blah blah. I just said. I wanted to do something nice for you because I love you very much I am not changing who i am. It was like he wanted to get mad but he had nothing to get mad at. We talked for a few minutes about random stuff and when he had to go I said I love you very very much. He sighed and was like "ok whattodo"

I will just show him that I love him by my actions.

So new development...

Last night he said his flight was getting in late.

Today I asked him his flight number. (I always do when he is traveling) and he said he didn't know it yet because they switched flights. I said ok let me know when you know or atleast what time.

So I've had this bad feeling all morning. Intuition if you will.

Then something on his facebook makes me think he is already at airport so I start thinking if he's already at airport his flight is not getting in "late"

So I text his Coworkers wife and ask if she knows flight times. She says she thinks she knows and that there was a flight change and tells ne the new time. Which is not late. And in fact he would be home in time for dinner. So now I don't know what to do. I know his flight so I will know when he gets into town. But he is still trying to tell me he has a late flight. I guess assuming I'm not going to figure it out?

Ahhh waywards!!!!

Any ideas of what to do?

What airline? What cities? You can find out all flight information online, not which flight he is on, but which flights are at least offered. Did he say how late, what time? If there is no flight then...

BTW, do not mean for you to answer my questions here, but for yourself.

Yea I know. She told me the time and I found the real flight I think. I have her on my side and she knows what's going on.

Point is I know when he's actually coming home. He hasn't lied because I think his flight really did get changed. But he hasn't told me the actual flight time even when I asked.
And I can only assume it is so he can do whatever he likes tonight and get home late acting like his flight just got in. Should I go along with him or catch him in the act. Or jot it down keep my mouth shut but remember for later so I can bring up the lie.

I am trying to keep a journal of all the things that happen. With the dates.

I would send him a nice text saying something like "Sweetie since you weren't sure when your flight would be in and I wanted to be certain dinner was ready and warm, I called X's wife and confirmed with her. Hope you like_________for dinner. C u soon.
xxxooo

Can you be at the airport? Is that more trouble than it's worth? Watch him exit the plane, snap a photo, text it to him? I know liars hate this kind of stuff, but hey, they're the liars, if they liked it they'd admit to this stuff.

I like Sunny's response.

Lacking that, if/when he does get home late pretending to have just arrived be honest. Something like:

"I talked to xxx and she let me know your flight came in at X:XX. I'm sorry you felt you had to lie to me. That really hurt me. I was looking forward to spending my evening with you. Would you like me to warm you up some dinner?"

I could be at the airport CWMI but I'm not sure that is a Plan A type of thing to do. I don't know I'm no Plan A expert.

I'm thinking of texting agian. Just simply asking will you be home for dinner or is your flight getting in late. Would you like me to make you dinner. Leave out that I contacted the wife.

Or maybe do nothing. And just give him the chance to make it right. Then when I know his planes landed and he's not home in a timely fashion go find his car at her house. Or park my car in walking distance to her house and wait to see him come there. Than I can get pictures of them possibly.

No you need to let him know that you KNOW when his flight is coming in, if not then he will lie to you. But when you tell him you know because you talked to so and so then he can't lie to you.

Just text him.."Hey babe, just found out when your flight is coming into town, I'm so sorry they changed it on you, but that's ok I'll be home waiting for you with dinner warm and ready love ya can't wait to see you!!"

Hmm. Ok I'll do that.

K that's what I did now I just wait to see if he replys or ignores. I know he's going to be pissed at friend for telling me. And mad at me for asking.


Yes it doesn't make sense for me to ignore it. Him lying to me is painful for me. I should do what I can to not be hurt by him.

But he doesn't like me pretending that everything is okay. But I'm not. I'm trying to show him what a good wife I can be.

Oh well... his problem if he's mad.

Just a bit longer.

How go the Plan B plans?

Let us know what he say's

Hasn't landed yet. Was in air when I sent it. I have a feeling he's going to say I'm not coming home for dinner. But we will see.

Actually he will say I need space.

Course he will! He's wayward. Stick to your plan

I am. He finally responded. Almost an hour after his plane landed. Said I'm not coming home going to have a beer. Then I said ok well I have dinner in the oven for you it wilbe ready at x time. Then he said I don't want to come home and "talk." And I responded. I don't want to talk either I just want to have a nice dinner with my husband and maybe watch some tv. But I haveto go to bed early so I don't want to be up late.

Ok dinner is done. I slipped into my comfortable clothes except it's a little too cold for them so I got a robe on too. But I was thinking thy could come off as I was getting food out of the oven. It's just way too hot ya know.

But he's not home yet.

I really liked the idea of being AT the airport. I think I would have been there waiting for my WH with a silly sign that read, "Mr So and so, sexiest man alive." And I would have been dressed smoking hott. THAT would have been a GREAT Plan A moment. Probably would have PIZZED off mr WH, but it wouldn't matter, NO EXPECTATIONS.

You are veering closely to Plan Doormat. I would caution against this. Have you read other people's threads to see what you could do in your own sitch?

I've read your thread. Or some of it. It's really long. And some others.

How do I keep from being a doormat.

Update. He asked what was for dinner an why I cooked it. I told him and Sao because I love you and wanted you to have a nice meal. After he didn't respond for 20 minutes after that I fixed my plate and started eating. Almost done now.

When he gets home. I will say you can heat some up if you'd like.

I'm pretty toasty right now...

And now he's not sure if he's coming home.

He is obviously conflicted. As waywards are I guess. I don't even know how to respond.

When I was in Plan A, I figured out that DS was an EN that I had been lacking in pre-A. I would make dinner and have it in the oven. No word said, it was where it was. At first, WH would come home and ask where it was, I told him. After that, it made me laff, he would just look in the oven everyday to find himself his dinner. Now, I KNEW that he was with OW that day, they work together, but I also had a time limit. If he would have come home late, his dinner would have been in the garbage. I was cooking for him because that is something that I as a wife would do for my husband. It is something that I would do again if he were to come back to the marriage.

Stay away from the ILY's right now. It will annoy him. He KNOWS that you love him.

Have you read Schoolbus's body language thread? You should make sure that you touch him everyday. Brush his cheek with your hand. Look into his eyes as often as possible. Become super flirty.

You will show your WH that you are willing to meet his ENs by actually doing things to meet them. You will not waiver on your actions due to his reactions. You just become the wife and woman you want to be. BUT you need to let him know that the affair is NOT okay. You will do it in a non-LB way. My fav was, "I can not accept a marriage where you have a girlfriend, would you like a cookie?" Said while I was looking in his eyes(well attempting, since he didn't want to look at me) and holding onto his arm slightly squeezing.

You CAN do this. You just need to realize that you are going to have a short time pf Plan A before you are in Plan B and you don't want to look back thinking that you could have done more. BTW, when is the end of your Plan A? When are you starting Plan B? It is supposed to be only for 3-4 weeks for women. Do you have your letter ready? Requirements for recovery figured out? IM in place that knows what to do? This is part of Plan A too.

DON'T RESPOND.

Don't let him think that you are there for his every whim. You just live for you because soon enough, you may be doing just that.

While you are waiting start getting ready for your plan B

He said he found an apartment and he's trying to decide if he wants it or not. He has till tomorrow to decide. Thing is the apartment is a month to month deal If it is the one I think it is.

I have read the body language thing. It's funny I was doing so many of those things already. And didn't realize it. Still am when he's home.

He so caught up on this whole this isn't who you are this isn't who you've been this isn't who you will be thing. It's so annoying.

I can only assume he's not coming home at this point.

Don't discuss any separate living arrangements with him. Let him know that you will only talk about MARRIAGE. You need to let him know about your feelings in a non-LBing way.

Sorry to press you on this, but have you made any preparations for Plan B? You will not be able to carry on like this indefinitely without committing some HUGE LBs. You don't want to look back at your Plan A and think, "What if?" You will most likely do that anyways so why not make this PLan A the best?

Scotty- I'm glad you're on this thread. I've always admired your story and think you are a plan A / plan B queen!

You're awesome! Want, listen to Scotty.

Thanks.

I am working on Plan B. I have started think about it atleast. But I was also trying to focus on Plan A. And trying to spend some time to myself everyday. Werei didn't have to think about work or him for just a little while.

He's so conflicted. He acted like he wasn't coming home then just now says agian I don't know what to do. Haha I guess he's like me.

He didn't come home last night. I've been making a journal of events and trying to include pictures. So I am going to get a picture of his car there on my way to work.

He does a lot of lying. Alot of not telling the truth too.

About plan B. I might need to start sooner than I wanted too. I was actually going to try and do it for a while. But anyway.

What is said about me moving out instead of him I really don't have much desire to be in this home without him. And I think it would be good for him to take care of the house on his own. He says he wants to keep the house. And I have no desire to have it. So thinking him keeping it might be a good thing.

I have been busy all day. I talked to him very briefly throughout the day. Like nothing was wrong. He sent me an email about something that affects our future. I don't understand. He is looking at getting an apartment!

Anyway I have no idea.

His car wasn't at he house this morning. But he may have hidden it elsewhere. So I have no idea where he was last night.

How are the Plan B plans coming?

What2, Just FYI, once you move to Plan B, you need to be prepared to STAY DARK until your WH meets the conditions of your Plan B letter. It will be hard at first but every poster I have read who has done a good Plan B says they feel better after they go thru the initial withdrawal period.

I will get you a good Plan B reading link so you can make sure you know what you are getting into. Hang in there.

Getting Ready For Plan B

Dear husband,

This is a difficult letter for me to write, one that I have been mentally working on for weeks now. I have written this letter with the true love that only a wife can have for a husband. Please read every word I have written, for it is from the heart.

I would like to acknowledge and apologize for my part in the demise of our marriage. I neglected your needs, and failed to give you what you needed many times. I'm sure this helped create a voice in our marriage that allowed your affair to happen. I have said this before, and I want to say it again: I want to do whatever I can to put our marriage back together in a mutually satisfying way. I feel that I have been learning ways to be the type of woman that I hope you would be proud to call your wife, as I have so many times felt pride in calling you my husband. I so want to be able to put the past behind us, and build a better life together for us and the children.

The past five months have been a difficult passage of time for me, the most emotionally traumatic in my life. We seemed to start recovery in the beginning, only to slip and fail again. I am still feeling the hurt and pain when I don't know where you are, or when you'll be home. We have somehow misplaced our foundation of trust and respect. But lately God has given me a strength that I never knew I possessed. I have grown and matured more as a Christian than I have in my entire lifetime. Whereas in the past I endured the hurt and pain, I now see that it is soon to drain my love for you. Until you can truthfully and honestly return home and work with me on rebuilding our marriage, I will be having no communication with you, except regarding the children, and I will avoid seeing you. This is not to punish you, it is to protect my feelings for you and our chances at reconciliation. If we continue as we are now, there would be nothing left.

I ask that you please respect my decision to separate in this way. Please feel free to call the kids at any time and set up visits. If you need to contact me, please do so through email or my pager voicemail.

I will be seeking counsel on how to best protect the kids financially, specifically child support and how to set that up.

I want us to be a team, and restore our marriage together. I want you to know that no matter how bad the past was, no matter how ugly, we can get past it. With God's help, our true healing can begin. Look inside yourself and find the strength we will need to do this.

I want to grow old with you. I loved you more than life itself while we were together, and I continue to do so as I write this. When you find yourself ready and willing to truly and fully commit to our family, willing to work on a plan for our recovery, and go to counseling, I will be ready and willing to discuss our future.

God be with you, my love.

Your loving wife,
KK


This one really hit home. Thanks for the link. Very helpful. I think I will use this letter as a base for my letter. I already have lots of ideas written down for me to use too. I wil post my draft when I finish. Probably won't be until this afternoon.

He actually came home last night. He is miserable. He didn't get the apartment as far as I can tell. I've been in contact with an employee at his work and she says he's been miserable there. This is taking it's toll on him. I just wish he would realize I don't want to be miserable anymore. I want to be happy.

Any thoughts on me moving out for plan B? I don't know if that's normally done or not.

You don't move out.

You stay in the family home.

You ask HIM to move out. If he wants to live the single lifestyle he doesn't get to do it from the family home.

What are your finances like? Can you support yourself financially? Can you separate your finances so none of your money goes to him?

I can't pay for our house on my own but could easily get my own place on my own. He would have a hard time paying for our house on his own but he could. The apt he was looking at was a furnished month to month it was on the high side but there was no lease. I would almost rather him stay at the house in some ways but I don't want to leave obviously. But I just feel that if he's at the house by himself he may start to miss me. When his laundry piles up and he has to do it himself and the dishes never get done. And he has to feed the dog and make sure he takes care of it. If he moves to an apt he will basically live out of a bag and it woould seem less like he was missing me and more like a long work trip or something.

DO not contact threw emails or anything else STAY DARK that means...

No emails
No texts
No msgs on FB
No calls
No pix
Not wondering what your husband is doing

NOTHING!

Find someone you know that can be an IM that way if he needs to contact you regarding the kids he needs to call that person then have that person call you. OK??

STAY DARK

What2, it is HIGHLY recommended that the BS stay in the home.

One of the problems is that he may bring OW into the home and then if you were to reconcile, it may be too difficult for you to ever return there.

Secondly, it should be a natural consequence of his straying.

I think many WHs don't resist continuing to chip in $$ when the BS moves to plan B, but you may want to talk to a lawyer to see what your rights are in a separation.

Some serious Plan A in the works this weekend. OW is not in town. Cooked an awesome dinner last night and breakfast this morning. I will go into more detail later. I guess he's going to stay here since his getaway is gone. He doesn't want to spend the weekend alone.

Just focusing on meeting his top ENs. Also make sure that you let him know that you are willing to reconcile when he chooses to end the affair. Let him know that his affair is harmful to you. As long as you did it in a non-LBing way and you don't dwell on it or get into an argument, you will be sticking to Plan A.

Have you made any strides in planning for Plan B?

I started doing some plan B planning but was trying to enjoy the weekend with him.

We had some good steps and bad steps this weekend. Saturday was really bad.

Then yesterday we spent some time together. He doesn't want me to Plan A. I still am going to to some extent but he feels like it's not real. I think it makes him more uncomfortable. I explained to him that I wanted to be a good wife and I wanted to do these things for him. Then we talked about how I used to cook for him and I used to do these things. He tried to tell me that he didn't need me to meet his EN. He didn't use those words of course but that's basically what he said. But then when I told him that I wanted to meet his ENs and told him what they were he didn't disagree. I didn't say emotional needs or anything but I got the point across.

So then last night he comes in my room and we talk. We both agree that we want a loving marriage. We have both seen our parents especially his live thier lives as I love you but I'm not in love with you. He says hes not in love with me. We talked about several things andit was good. He is still unsure about what he wants to do. But he says he feels weird staying in the house and thathe used to be really happy in the house. I made it clear agian that I want us to be happy. He admits that he is not happy when he leaves. I tried to get out of him whatwould make him happy. But he says he doesnt know. He admits that he thinks he could love me agian but doesn't know how to. And even admits that when he's home there are moments when he is happy. Which I know because I feel those moments. And he still cares for me tremendously. But he doesn't want the life his parents have. Together but not really in love.

Anyway. I know alot of what he said has affair fog written all over it but it seems like maybe he is breaking through the fog a little. He even apologized for being so indecisive. Unforetunately she will be back in town today. He tried agian to claim that she is not the enemy. I made it clear to him that I don't trust her and don't want her around. He is battling in his mind and is having a hard time. Anyway I think I will continue plan A for two more weeks then move into plan B. However I am going to not be quite so obvious in my plan A I think he thinks I am trying too hard.

My Plan B letter. First draft:

This is very difficult for me, I have gone over the words I have written here a million times in my head. �Please read what I have written and remember that everything I have written is heartfelt, I have so much love for you and I want you to remember that as we go through this difficult time in our lives.�

I would like to acknowledge and apologize for my part in the demise of our marriage. I neglected your needs, and failed to give you what you needed many times. I know that this is the root of your problems and the reason you no longer have the same feelings for me. �I have said this before, and I want to say it again: I want to do whatever I can to put our marriage back together in a mutually satisfying way. I feel that I have learned from my mistakes and have found ways to be the type of woman that I hope you would be proud to call your wife, as I have so many times felt pride in calling you my husband. I want to be able to put the past behind us, and build a better life together one that will truly be filled with love and happiness.�

The past few months have been a difficult passage of time for me, and I know it has been for you as well. There were times when I felt that we were making strides in the right direction and then suddenly we would take another step back. I am constantly feeling the hurt and pain when I don't know where you are, or when/if you'll be home. We have somehow misplaced our foundation of trust and respect and I want it back. Lately I have been trying to find the strength I need to get through this and I believe I have made positive steps with myself. However, in the past I tried (and failed) to endure the hurt and pain, I now see that it is soon to drain my love for you. Until you can truthfully and honestly return home and work with me on rebuilding our marriage, I will avoid seeing you. This is to protect my feelings for you and our chances at reconciliation. If we continue as we are now, there would be nothing left.�

I want us to be a team, and restore our marriage together. I want you to know that no matter how bad the past was, no matter how ugly, we can get past it. Look inside yourself and find the strength we will need to do this.�

I want to grow old with you. I loved you more than life itself while we were together, and I continue to do so as I write this. When you find yourself ready and willing to truly and fully commit to our marriage, I will be ready and willing to discuss our future. I truly believe we can be happy and have a better relationship than we had before one that will last a lifetime.�

Comments?

Thanks.

Remember to add "and until you end all contact with OW" let him know that their will be some things he will need to do before he comes home. Such as...

NC letter
Transparency
Lie detector test
Counsel with the Harleys
15 hours of UA time
ETC...

I thought I saw somewhere that you should have a second conditions to be met letter to give WH when he does decide he wants to recover.

But I do need to add the NC with OW part in the letter probably.

Of course you will need to state that the affair hurt you badly. You should include some happy memories. Remember, this is possibly the last love letter you will write to your H.

I did have an addendum about finances and children and then another one with some basic requirements that my WH would need to meet for me to break PLan B.

Take another stab at it. I am sure there will be others who will comment on here as well.

Here is my Plan B letter, it is pretty much from SAA.


I also made sure I sent a copy to OW's email with the added line This way, there was no way he could spin it to say that he was leaving me to finally be with her. And she knew that I would still be sticking around. HEY, I think I just figured out why she always comes with him when he drops off and picks up our children. HAHAHAHAHAHA

I know this a hard time, but it really will get better.

He is still insisting that there is nothing going on with OW. So I don't know how much I want to put it there. I stated my case saying that it is the only conclusion I can draw and that I know that when he is leaving he is at her house an it eats me up inside. He ended up there the other night and I triedto just ignore it but ended up calling him late when I couldn't sleep. Which was stupid but he answered I asked him one question why he didn't come home. Instead of answering he just got in the car and came home. Then told me that he has been asking for space and I wasn't giving it to him. And he would stay at the house if I would give him space. He insisted there was nothing going on with OW. I want to believe him and trust him but I can't. I told him that he is sure making it look like there is something going on and that all his actions point to it. Probably LB but he needed to understand my point.

So anyway I swore to leave him alone and he actually came home last night at a decent hour. I didn't even see him or talk to him. And just now saw him for the first time this morning. I talked to him once yesterday and it was a need to know. If this is what he wants is me giving him space I will. I know it goes agianst MB but Plan A wasn't working even when I was doing good and not LB. I think this will be a modified Plan B. He still is living in the house. I think I will do a as long as you come home I will give you space if you leave I am going to come find you and call you and you won't get space. But I do know he is still looking at apartments. He swears the separation is what he needs that "the reading he's done" says that if one partner is unsure of the marriage they should separate themselves and see how they feel.

I think I going to go as far as not doing his laundry or dishes. He will notice eventually and when he asks which I doubt he will I'll just say in the nicest way possible I am giving you space. By the way I wouldn't be doing this except for te thing he got mad at was me cooking him dinner. He didn't want me to cook him dinner the other day.

I'm sure you all are going to bombard me with you shouldn't do that and blah blah but Plan A was making it worse. Anyway I am getting Plan B in order still. If the space seems to work over the next two weeks I may try adding in some plan A stuff little by little. I did do the touching thing the other night and I think I am going to this morning. I am gong to touch him arm and thank him for coming home last night.

I will let the vets give you the 2X4's

Need to vent...
This morning he wakes me up and says he needs a ride to his car. It was pretty early and he was not very nice. So I get up and get some clothes on and he is basically tapping his foot waiting on me. Then we get in the car and he actually talks to me a little. When I drop him off he says nothing no bye no thanks. Not that I expected him to.

So I have always been clear that I don't mind driving him and picking him up if he's drinking. Of course I was usually there to just bring him home before. What's really weird was where I took him was not exactly a drinking establishment. It was a restaurant. I just don't see him getting drunk at this particular place.

Anway point is I think he was trying to make me mad. But it didn't work. I'm a little annoyed hence the venting but I'm really not even that mad. I know OW takes him to his car probably on a regular basis. So he was hoping I would get mad. But what happens when he's living by himself? I guess he just has to not get drunk. I wonder if he has thought about that.

Anyway in the car was the most I have talked to him in two days and that was a two mile drive so not exactly a conversation.

So. He has not stayed at OW agian. Which is good. He has agreed to dinner with me once a week. I plan to use this time to Plan A big time. Other than that we talk a little here and there about small stuff. He is mostly nice. He has barely seen OW in a couple weeks.

I believe he is in this state of doesn't want to leave but doesn't want to stay. Right now things are okay. We actually have had some fun together a couple times. I need to continue Plan A a little longer. For my sake. But I am going to sit him down a some point soon and say I'm not going to live like this. I want a husband not a roomate. I have thought about what I want to say and some of it is a little plan b letter like. I am under a lot of stress this week with work but after Friday that will be better. After that I am going to plan carefully what to say and maybe just go straight into plan b and do a letter. I want to do this carefully. I think he still wants to be married to me. But I need to get rid of OW of course. I have tried to make that clear but I'm not sure he fully understands it. He is keeping up the there is nothing going on thing going. But I am carefully and secretly keeping track of his whereabouts and have a few people on my side doing so as well. I pretty much know when he is with her which that time has decreased big time.

I'm keeping track of everything. It's weird. I read all this stuff about cake eaters. I don't feel like hes cake eating. He doesn't have me and doesn't want me (but doesn't want to leave) and he's not really getting his needs met at all hardly. I try but he refuses most of my attempts. And he is probably getting few met by OW but hes not really spending time with her either. And there's no missing time. He's in the limbo. Which isn't good for either of us. Which is why I plan on laying it all out I guess in a plan B.

So I realize that nobody here wants to help me anymore but here it goes...

So I have been plan A as much as possible. I slip sometimes though. Well a couple weeks ago things started to escalate. Somedays he seems happy and like he wants to be with me and others he hates my guts. I am trying to Plan A until he finds his own place then I will start to plan B.

He is very upset that I have told people. And one day I was upset and sent something to OW. He was upset when he found out and left the house for 3 days. When he came back he refused to tell me where he was and said he had been so mad when he left he was going to leave me. I asked him why he came back and he couldn't answer me. Than he said he was tired of the accusations and that there was nothing going on between him and OW(I still don't have hard evidence) I do t believe him. I want more than anything to be wrong but I know he is. He said that OW was very upset because its not true and she called a friend who then called him and yelled at him for what I did. I said why didn't she yell at me? He didn't answer.

So anyway we did not spend the holiday together. He went to his parents and I to mine. Our parents still don't know anything. I planned on telling my parents the truth if they asked but they didn't. And obviously he didn't tell his parents either because his dad invited himself to our house for the remainder of the weekend. Friday night and last night he slept in our bed because his dad was here. He said he was not looking forward to pretending around his dad yet he pretended. He had told me before he doesn't care what his parents think but that obviously not true.

If he is so miserable with me why hasn't he left yet?

So he messed up. He has been very careful not to call her on his phone very often. He uses skype. The only way I know this is I saw a payment for skype and why else would he be buying skype minutes? But I saw a strange number on His phone bill a quick google search of the number revealed a couple with the last name of OW who are obviously her parents. Luckily her parents are very involved in different things because their number is everywhere on the Internet. I have the name number and address and more (no email though) I also was able to find her brother on facebook by finding some college info on him related to their parents.

I know everyone says you have to expose to everyone and leave no one out. I just can't make myself tell my parents or his parents. He has already said that my going and "talking to people at his work" is the biggest thing he was mad at. I can't imagine how mad he will be if I contact his family.

I know you all are frustrated with me. But what do I do. I think things are worse because of the exposure I have done. And he keeps repeating that his problem is with me. He said that I was making him unhappy. He refuses to do any kind of counseling or anything that might help us reconnect. Even our night together once a week he ignores me as much as possible. He doesn't want anything to do with me but he doesnt want to leave either.

Sorry for the babble I just don't know what to do any more.

The only thing that is missing is you have not exposed. Why don't you expose then people will help you otherwise we can not help you if you have not exposed yet, because that is the first step on repairing your marriage.

But the exposure I have done has made things so much worse. I am so afraid of what will happen. But am finally at a place where I think I can handle anything that is going to happen. He keeps putting it all on me. And refuses to just admit what is going on. If I mean as little to him as he says why won't he just fess up.

Ok I guess I need to breath in and just do the exposure. Any tips on telling family? I don't want my family to hate him and I don't want his family to be dissapooitned. I feel that the people I told ended up pushing him away and he went straight to guess who and his one other friend. There are a number of people he says he's spent time with who know everything who have tried talking to him but he refuses to talk. I also found out that before I exposed he was pretending like everything was okay.

WTD,

"So I realize that nobody here wants to help me anymore but here it goes..."

Don't get down on yourself! It appears to me that you are trying your hardest to survive this. It is normal for you to be scared if not terrified but, it does seem time to move forward. In my humble opinion you need to dig even deeper and own your life. Empower yourself, take control of what you can control and no matter what happens you will feel whole knowing you have done your best. Show yourself, your God and this world that you have faith enough to try.

WTD - as long as you allow him to bully you into silence, he will go right on having both a wife and a girlfriend. He's not trying to choose between you - he wants BOTH. And that's what he's got right now.

Your marriage CAN survive his temporary anger at having his dirty little secret exposed.

Your marriage CANNOT survive his dating and sleeping with another woman.

That's why everyone here is pushing hard for you to stop protecting a pair cheaters and be honest with everyone about what's really going on.

The cheaters are relying on you being too embarrased and too scared of your husband's anger to say anything. Please stop helping them and help your marriage instead.

whattodo, typically posters will stop advising when it becomes evident that their advice will not be followed.

You've got thirty pages here, dating back a few months. Can you bring us up to speed on what, if anything, you have done?

I know you exposed him at work. I'm not sure why you did that, when you didn't (and still don't) have solid evidence of an affair.

What snooping have you done to confirm an affair?

I have kept a log of when he is not home and when I find his car at her house. I know he has talked to her on the phone Because I have the phone records. no access to email but even if I did he would delete any emails from her. He is being very careful. He spent several nights at her house which he claims were because he had nowhere else to stay. He lied to me on one(at least) that he was at something for work and I found him with her.

No I don't have any solid proof of a physical affair. But I do have proof that the relationship is something he does not want me or others knowing about. It is my opinion that if he feels he needs to keep anything a secret from me (and his other friends parents coworkers) that there is something inappropriate about it.

He of course will disagree and say he shouldn't have to tell me. He may be still living at the house but he has no feelings for me or so he says.

You do not need any further "proof" of your H's inappropriate relationship with OW.....he has repeatedly for months placed his "friendship" with her above your marriage. He has twisted you in the wind, blaming you, making you crazy with his his indecision, back and forth, home and not home. You have placed no significant boundaries on what you will tolerate, so he continues to treat you any way he wants to and you continue to twist yourself into a prezel trying to figure out how to best deal with the constant craziness he's bringing into your life.

Until you are ready to say "no more" "I deserve better" and "I can't be around you, talk to you or have any contact unless she is out of your life completely and you commit to serious steps to recover our marriage", you will be at his mercy and he will make no serious efforts to be a husband to you.

For some reason you have let his "she's just a friend" and "you're trying to control me and who I can be friends with" totally intimidate you. I'd bet half the betrayed spouses on this site have gotten the "just a friend" excuse. You have so much proof that he's involved with OW....but apparently only catching them sleeping together will totally convince you....but really....it's not the only thing that makes his behavior wrong. You are crossing into the realm of him emotionally abusing you by things he says and how he treats you. At some point you have to summon the self-love and respect for your own dignity to cut him out of your life unless and until he totally reverses his behavior towards you and his totally ends any contact with OW.

The ball is not in his court alone. You have power. You just won't use it.

I agree I have not been treated right. He has said things to me(during fights) that were completely uncalled for, such as "you're not worth it"

Goths reason I came back here after a month was because today he got mad when he found I had gone to dinner with a wife of his friend. when he found the credit card charge he asked and I told the truth. I could have lied I could have made sometng up about why I had gone to that restaurant I could have paid with cash in the first place but I told the truth. I had told him that day I was no longer talking to people about our problems. I caused some issues for him at work.
He got mad. He was gone all day. I assume he was with her but when he came home he had picked up fast food so he didn't eat dinner with her. I didn't feel like snooping. As you say I have enough evidence seeing him with her only hurts me at this point. I will continue to monitor but I'm not going crazy over it anymore.

So after he came home he was angry and asked why I did it. I explained. He didn't really care and what was said is not important. Than he said that was the final straw and he was done. I just said okay and that I wasn't going to force him. Than I started to say something and said nevermind it doesn't matter. He kept pushing and wanted to know what i was thinking. Finally I asked do you see any hope, he of course said know because he is angry right now. I said okay well before this afternoon did you still think there was a chance for us. He said yes but I go back and forth with how I feel(I already knew this but felt good to hear it straight from his mouth) then I said well you know I want to make this work and blah blah. Then I said but as long as you are friends with OW it will not work. Whether it is or isn't anything going on and whether or not you realize it the relationship has crossed a line. I said more than that but you get the idea. He responded you think an ultimatum is going to he the situation. I reminded him that he pushed me to tell him what was on my mind to which he didn't have anything to say. After that he walked away. He obviously sees no hope now.

Point is unless he is will to recommit and take steps to improve our marriage I will not push him anymore. I was resistant to him leaving or even the thought of a separation at first now I have put the ball in his court. I made it very clear to him that I want to reconcile and that it is he who has the decision to make. He wants to be able to tell people it just didnt work out. He wants it not to be his fault. He is trying extremely hard to make it either my decision or mutual.

I am willing to do what it takes. Before I was scarred embarrassed and everything else that goes along with it. Yes I was not meeting his needs and I have put a lot of blame on myself for that. But I also know that it takes two to break it and he is just as much to blame (before the affair) but now I am read to work through our problems and he is not. And yes I have told him this.

I really appreciate everything everyone here says. I know I should have listened before but I was and still am scared of what is goi to happen. I guess now maybe I realize this is real and if I don't do something about it I will never get past it. Ugh sorry for the long post

PS he is convinced I don't care about him. Background story may be long:

So back when things were not bad we had OW and another friend over for dinner/ drinking. I am pretty sure I have told is story already but I will agian just incase. So somehow OW and I ended up alone. She started asking me about how I knew it was true love and whatnot. At this point I wanted to try and be friends with her. I was stupid and ignored my own feelings that there was a spark and tried to be friends with her. Which actually she did the same to me. We actually could get along in an other circumstance. So anyway I told her how I just knew that H was meant for me and I knew I loved him. So then she asked if he was ever sweet (H not exactly most romantic person and it is obvious to any outsider) I told her he was mist of the time not sweet but I was okay with that because it's not like I didn't know it and I didn't really want an overlly sweet or romantic. And that I loved him for who he was and that he had his moments and that the way things were for us worked, for us. She went on to say how she didn't think she could deal with that that she needed someone to sweep her off her feet I guess. I went on to say (I know youre all thinking WTD shut the f*** up) how I didn't need someone to be all romantic and that I liked the way he was and that he had his moments which I went on to tell her one of these moments. I was not exactly sober during this conversation and didn't realize till the next day the weirdness of the conversation.
This stuck in my head. Well the other day he told me the icing on the cake was when OW told him that I had said "it's a good thing I didnt want a someone who was sweet"
So she went and told him that I had said this (completely out of context) so I asked him if she also told him that I had said he had his moments and that it worked for us. He said no of courier but then said it didn't matter because it was the" icing on the cake."

Anyway really annoying that he doesn't see that she manipulated him.

So I also said something to him about how I understood what was going through his head. Not that I agreed with it but I understood why he would be unfaithful. Because I do I am pretty logical it makes sense to me. Yes wrong but still makes sense. But I dont understand why she would be with a married man. I told him this. I said I just don't understand the thought. What's in it for her. H took this to mean no one would want to be with him and that I don't think anyone would want to be with him beside me. So frustrating.

Sorry for long posts...

I have know you a long time. Hon! You need to get off the pot and expose this. Your going to lose your love if you don't. You have tried everything your way. Ignored the advise of others and it isn't working. Why not try the marriagebuilders way. Expose and get a letter of exposure out to everyone.

I want to find a way to make a new start. We have been together for 35 years -- maybe ho-hum for some. He wants to find a new love. We have both made numerous mistakes but we still love each other. How do we do this?

What...I feel very strongly that you need to get into individual counseling and try to find yourself. You are so entwined in this constant uproar in your marriage that you cannot guide yourself to do what's best for you.

How long are you willing to live with a man who is totally rejecting you? It is long past when you should go to Plan B and totally cut off contact with him. Yes, you may lose him totally, but what do you really have now except hurt, uproar, rejection, constant discussions that get no where. He has shown he will not make any decisions....just threatens to leave you all the time, says hurtful things to you. So what if you did some things wrong in the past that helped make your marriage vulnerable. All of us do....you have tried everything to appease him and get him back.

You are not protecting yourself. You are becoming a victim. Go to Plan B. Totally cut contact with him. If he misses you, if he has any regard for your marriage, it might have an impact on him. Right now he just goes back and forth between you and OW whenever he pleases.....sets up arguements to justify being gone from home so he can be with her. You're actually helping him keep that relationship going.

Please get some backbone and go to Plan B....the pros here can help you do this. You're caught in a trap of repeating the same things over and over again now and its doing nothing.

hearts,

Did you post this to the wrong thread?

I would suggest the same thing. If you are totally unable to confirm a physical affair, you know there is at least an emotional one. This has dragged on long enough.

I knew a woman who was in the same spot. She did what you're doing, and her H eventually lived in two households - he would spend Christmas morning with BW and the kids, then leave and spend Christmas evening with OW and her kids. For decades. Every holiday. Every weekend - all of their married life was split between their home and the home of OW.

You don't want that, do you?

Wow no I do not want that.

He thinks that nothing is going change that the problems we have/had will always exist and that we can't fix them.

So any advice on moving into plan B then. I guess I need to get a letter started. I want him to know that I am willing to work things out but he needs to be willing and he needs to never talk to OW ever agian.

I can't afford to pay for our house on my own. How do I do finances?

He has already been looking at apartments but hasn't made that move yet. I guess I have to kick him out? Not sure I can do that. He has already made comments about him having to be in a crappy apt while I live in our house. To which I have responded that he is welcome to stay and we can work on our marriage.

I have to go complete no contact. Ahhh that's going to be hard.

I have already looked into individual counseling but I haven't made the move yet. I guess I could get started on that. I'm not really sure how I feel about going to counseling but I guess maybe I really need to.

You gotta love those waywards - they are so good at finalizing their marriages when it suits them. Ignore this drivel. It's from the Wayward-speak Handbook.

Thanks. It's hard to ignore but I will try. One of the things that led to problems is he thinks I want kids. He still brings it up even after I have told him all the reasons I don't want to have kids yet.
Then he will be like I think we could work it out but I'm afraid that 5 years from now we will be looming at the same situation only we will have spent 5 more years of our lives and there will be a kid involved.
That doesn't even make sense. You think were gonna go an have a kid in the next 5 years without making sure we are ready? When he swears now he doesn't want kids ever but didnt feel that way before we were married.

I always wanted kids but I was always clear that I wasn't going to be ready for a long time. Anyway he says alot of things like this. They don't make sense and I have tried to make sense of them.

FYI so you don't have to go back and look I'm 26 and hes 28. By the way OW is 30.

Why do you think you should go for individual counseling?

He's just as confused as me. He even has said there are alot of times he wants to stay and others he just feels like leaving. And even though he won't admit to anything he knows the relationship is wrong. And now he's asking me things.

I said that because ladylonglegs suggested it. I have thought seriously about because it may help. I don't know if it would or not. I haven't gone yet because I'm not sure that it would make me feel any better other than having someone to talk to face to face.

Please don't fall for this. He is not "confused". He wants what every cheater wants - he wants both a wife *and* a girlfriend, and he will tell you anything to keep you dangling and waiting and hoping while he enjoys going back and forth between both.

It's working. Don't let him do this to you.

And have you seen this thread?

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2279757&page=1

If you feel there are personal issues that you have and counseling would help you, maybe it's something to consider. If you think it will help you regarding the affair, skip it.

Well H believe that is my personal issues that led to the falling out but I can't really believe anything he says.

Thanks for the link didn't even make it through the first post and was thinking this is what's happening. No lids of course so we don't have that but he specifically told me one time I still want to be friends. I thought how could we possibly be just friends after a divorce.

There you go, whattodo - I fixed the last part of your post for you.

Pay no heed to WH when he attempts to dump the responsibility for his affair on you. Waywards don't like to take responsibility for their bad decisions.

Thanks! I just wish he would admit to the affair now. He still refuses. He knows I know.

So yesterday he emailed me(he is out of town for work) he asked if he should be looking at apartments. And that he feels like there I no chance for us because all I want to do is continually talk bad about him to people(specifically the two people he is really mad that I exposed the affair to and I have talked to them several times since)
I responded: I do not sit around and talk bad about you to them I talk to them and they offer advice. And we do have a chance but I can't force you to want to be with me. If you are willing to really and truly try I am here and want to make it work.

I specifically didn't mention that there needed to be NC with OW but since I told him the other day he knows it. I will mention it agian for sure.
he never responded to this but later he emailed me to ask me a question about ordering something for us online. Like everything was normal.

I need to get plan B planned out agian. When he gets back I'm going to put my foot down and say either we work on this and the includes saying bye bye to OW or you move out.

I have my letter I started before I will pull that back out and rewrite it as needed.

He wants you to be the bad guy and throw him out, so he can blame you for ending the marriage.


Exposure is working. That's why he's trying to bully you into backing down by making threats about "no chance for us".

As long as you are in Plan A, the only response to his wayward babble should be, "I would like my husband to stop seeing other women, and come home." Repeat like a broken record.

Please do not engage in conversations like this with him, even via email. They will not serve you. Here's what you said: I do not sit around and talk bad about you to them I talk to them and they offer advice. And here's what he heard, through his fog: I talk to people and they think bad things about you because of me. You deserve to be with someone who doesn't say bad things to people about you.

You gotta love the editing powers of a wayward.

He was looking for a conversation that he could spin and he got one. The next time he tries to engage you like this, recognize it for what it is and only respond: "I love you and want us to be together in a loving marriage."

I mean, think about it. Do you think he really wanted your input on an apartment? No. He was baiting you to get that entitled feeling that he needs in order to keep going the way he's going.

He does want me to be the bad guy. I am giving him the choice not kicking him out.

I guess first things first. I need to expose to everyone. That's gonna be hard I don't want our families to know but guess I have to. I'm not sure what my parents and siblings will think. I am afraid his parents will practically disown him. Any advice on telling family members who will not approve? Obviously my family wants to see me happy but I don't think they will agree with me trying to work things out with him I think they will want me to just leave him.

Hmm ok. Thank you I didn't think of it this way. For now on I will just be a broken record. "I love you an want to be in a loving marriage with you"(and you only)

He has asked me several times what to do.

He also has told me how scared he is. And how hurt he is by all this too. But then he goes on to say he is miserable and can't live life this way.

Tell them. Tell them all and let the consequences fall freely on WH's head. Trying to protect him only enables his cheating. Consequences are the only things that ever get through to a wayward.

And don't let him blame you for telling people the truth. He's the one who chose to cheat and he's the one who brought those consequences straight on himself.

whattodo, if you knew how powerful a proper exposure can be, we'd be holding you back and telling you to get all of your ducks in a row.

Don't speculate on what others will do or think. That's not under your control. Your job is to expose this nasty affair and enlist their aid/advice/support in killing it.

Ok email phone calls? What's the best way?

What about his family do I just tell his parents? I don't know anyone else well enough (no siblings)

And her family what do I say to them?

Well I've been busy and haven't done much the last couple days. I need to get back on track.
Exposure in the works. He hasn't seen OW in days. I don't know if he has talked to her or not though.

Tell them exactly what is going on do not sugar coat it

Ahhhhhh

I need to vent so I dont do something stupid

Background I was stupid a couple weeks ago and sent an anonymous email to OW(I used a greeting card thing online with a fake email) the message said something about how affairs never work out and gave some statistics
Anyway...
Got an email using same greeting card and fake email but there was no message. So I emailed her directly and said is there a message or you just sending it for fun. Then WH emails me and says that was me why is OW calling friend saying you sent her more stuff.

I said I hadn't and forwarded the response I had sent to OW saying that's all I had sent. Then I called him and asked why he sent that. He said why did you send it. I said I think you know why I sent it but why did you send it he said because I'm bitter. Then he was like you really want to do this now? All pissy like. I was like no you were the one that decided to send the email. Then he turned off his phone.

He told me he was going to dinner with friend and said that OW wasn't there but I'm pretty sure she was.

Sorry for the rant. I'm pretty sure he wanted me to blow up which I started to but I'm calmer now that I wrote it down. Thanks

I should have just ignored it but I couldn't.

So exposure time. No sugar coating got it. Too bad I don't have evidence of physical but what I do know I will have to say it is an inappropriate relationship or something.

I'm sure she had to be there. You can't trust a lasik delivery boy.

Welcome, SuperDodge! Want to tell us your story?