I am finding the path to recovery very hard.....mainly because I feel insecure in my relationship....even though my husband is with us still as says he loves me, he has admitted to still having feelings for the OW. Is this acceptable? What kind of feelings are acceptable 5 months in? I pick holes in her the whole time....saying how bad she is. It is ugly and I know I shouldn't do it but I want to discredit her to him - is this fair/understandble? It winds him up and then he becomes defensive of her again leading me to think he still cares for her. Should I ask him to leave and only come back when he has exorcised her from his mind?

A better strategy is STOP nitpicking that skank to him, because it just keeps her top of mind and makes him feel defensive. If he too busy defending her, he won't realize what a mistake she is.

Your job is to create a romantic relationship that makes his affair with her PALE in comparison. That is how you fix that ho.

Be strategic, rather than REACTIONARY, my friend, and you will win this battle.

If you want to bash that ho, come here and do it where it won't harm you. Bringing her up to your H harms you.

I agree.
I concur.
DITTO

Is it ok for him to have feelings for her?

AEK, when you bash POSOW to your WH, you lower yourself to her level. Be above her! You want your WH to see how much better you are than her, not see you wallowing unattractively while you spout off about her.

I suspect you're trying to force him to see her for the skank that she is. But you're going about it the wrong way.

Let him see you at your sweetest. You'd be surprised by what that will do for both of you.

Come here to vent. We're good listeners that way.

He does have feelings for her. That is the truth. That is why he had an affair. The goal is to diminish those feelings by creating MORE LOVE for you.

Thank you.....but being sweet isn't how I am feeling. How can I be charm personified if I feel like killing her???? I guess I will have to try out my acting skills. But again, I ask, is it ok for him to have feelings for her. yesterday he said he missed her physically.....

Melodylane I see where you are coming from. Should he know I am even trying to implement Plan A or should I just try my best to be amazing......shouldn't it be him begging me for forgiveness and being very nice to me? This all seems the wrong way around....

Should he stop telling you the truth?

I wouldn't do Plan A. That is for an active affair. I would start on recovery. He needs to start EARNING your forgiveness and leading the way in a program of recovery. What has he done to EARN your forgiveness?

Check this out -------------------> Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?


Set the bar VERY HIGH, Aek, and make him live up to your standards. If you lower the bar, he will just live down to your expectations and then you will have no marriage.

Melodylane I see where you are coming from. Should he know I am even trying to implement Plan A or should I just try my best to be amazing......shouldn't it be him begging me for forgiveness and being very nice to me? This all seems the wrong way around....

Once you have all the details about the affair, it shouldn't be brought up again. Bringing it up KEEPS HIM AND YOU TRIGGERED and makes your relationship seem very unpleasant in contrast to his stinky affair. When you are unpleasant, you just prop the affair up and make it look more attractive than it is.

That is a very reactionary approach that will hurt your marriage and cause more grief and pain.

A more strategic approach is to stop mentioning that skank and start working on making your marriage such a romantic PLEASANT experience that skanky will pale in comparison. See what I mean?

He has done little to earn my forgiveness. He is here and not with her as she is still with her H. He has bought me the odd bunch of flowers and he helps around the house. But he sent her love texts and letters and bought her gifts of jewels etc...

Forget Plan A. Get his full committment to a plan of RECOVERY.

Read the article I just posted.

Are you reading any of my posts?

Yes I see what you mean MelodyLane. I will really try. I guess if I felt more secure I would not feel the need to mention her quite so often. We never used to argue or have any conflict but this has made us both quite angry and cold. what is a Skank - we do;t use this word in the UK?!!!

You have one of the BEST MBers interested in helping you.

PAY ATTENTION !!!

Oh, sister, you don't know the half of what I wanted to do to OW. And I won't lie to you and say I was a southern belle from Day 1. Boy, did I have my moments! But it didn't serve me, and it won't serve you, either. So yank on your acting skills and get yourself pulled together:

Here's what you do. Every time you feel like going off about OW, grab a nice, sturdy pillow, go to the garage and just start whaling that pillow against the ground. Call that pillow every name in the book. Work yourself up into a frenzy and pound the [censored] out of that pillow until the rage subsides.

Try not to let the neighbors see you do this.

Catch your breath. Smooth your hair. Put a smile on your face and go back inside.

FWIW, I found that door frames were handy for slamming pillows against.

It's no cure-all, but blowing off some of that anger and frustration was therapeutic for me. Maybe it will help you.

Stop this. Stop saying this and thinking it. You are keeping yourself enraged by continually telling yourself this stuff. This is working against you and harming your ability to create a romantic relationship.

Go read the article I posted and start thinking about what it will take to create a romantic relationship in your marriage. We can help you devise a plan that you can take to your husband.

you will be ok, AEK, if you can set aside your emotions. I know it is very hard, but your emotions are keeping you in state of despair. A better approach is to focus on a PLAN OF RECOVERY. Can you change your focus?

thanks, Pep.

Mentioning her to your H is not making you more secure, it is making you LESS secure. It keeps you triggered and fuels the conflict in your marriage. This is another example of your emotions working against you in a negative reactionary approach.

If you want to feel more secure, you need a more strategic approach. Your approach is not working.

Just finished article. makes sense. it all does. You do. Just hard. Need to work really really hard on this.

S-K-A-N-K ===== SLAG

Is there a template for a plan of recovery?

yes, I read all the posts and I wish I good turn in to a domestic and sexual goddess and for all the anger to disappear - I really do. Everything you all say makes SO much sense. Very tough going to school every day, the school my H and I built up to be brilliant and is no longer ours, seeing OW with kids everyday, blah blah.

I really want to change my focus. I am desperate to have my happy family back. There are many levels and may be that's why I am finding it tough....I have to see her every take at school drop off for example....

But yes, with your help, I think I can change, I think I can focus forward. I don't really know where to start with a plan though....I have read the article. I read whatever is recommended to be honest as I want to feel better and start living again.

AEK, first of all, listen to Mel. She KNOWS what she is talking about.

Secondly, part of the problem also is that you are still seeing OW regularly. I can't stress enough how dangerous this is to your R. If I were you, I would do whatever I could to get the he-- out of dodge and move away from the OW ASAP.

I had to go into the hospital where my H's OW works about 6 mos ago (did not see her) but it triggered me and it was very very unhealthy. Even though I have pretty much recovered from my H's A, I was angry about it all over again and withdrew from my H for a couple of weeks.

But no matter what, you have to stop talking about her and the A. Dr Harley is adamant about this. It is an enemy of conversation and just depletes LB$ units.

MEL sounds completely amazing......I know all your advice is 100% right but i am scared I have pushed him too far. I will really try very very hard over the coming days and hopefully this will lift the dark cloud. I am desperate for this to work.My kids leave school in 40 days so then we will not see her but we will still live in the same town and we have some mutual friends in common too - should we ditch these people?

Agree 100% it just drains both of us. Should we avoid talking about the A all together?

Just a suggestion:

Begin a journal.
Try not to enter all your angry thoughts/feelings.

Instead, enter what you learn on a daily basis.

There are lessons everywhere at the stage you're in.

Pay attention.
Be mindful.

"Today I learned ....."

You will amaze yourself.

The article was about forgivenss....I have read this one. Is there one on creating a romantic relationship?

Yes, after it has been discussed and all of the BS's questions answered in the beginning of R, it needs to be dropped.

This is part of having a solid plan for recovery.

I want a solid plan for recovery and I am so grateful to you folk for helping me change my focus. I will work hard and will always appreciate your help and advice.

The first article that Mel posted for you involves your H taking EPs (extraordinary precautions) to avoid contact with OW, including a plan for what to do if he should happen to hear from her or bump into her (ie, end the contact immediately and let you know and take steps to avoid the same thing from happening into the future) and then EPs to avoid another affair, including no opposite sex friendships, no discussing personal problems with women, etc. This is a good time for me to say that part of your EP plan should include your H not going anywhere near the school or any other place he may bump into the OW.

That's the first phase of recovery. Do you think your H would be on board with that? It's important to get this step completed as soon as you can so that you can move forward...

Next, it is vital that you two start spending at least 20 hrs a week UA time together without the kids, doing things you both enjoy and meeting the top four ENs (conversation, affection, SF and recreation) so that you can fall back in love with each other.

Hang in there!

Susie is exactly right. The UA time will get you the biggest bang for your buck. Just be sure and make it very pleasant. STOP talking about the affair. Focus on the top 4 intimate emotional needs. Sit down and actually schedule this time out.

The second thing is to get the book Lovebusters and follow the program in there. Do the lessons together and STOP lovebusters NOW. Take the lovebusters questionaires so you will know where your biggest problem spots are. [you can get the questionaire free on this forum, but you can also get the workbook, Five Steps to Romantic Love that has all the worksheets in it = they sell it cheap on this website]

In addition to Susie's excellent advice about taking extraordinary precautions to avoid the OW [even if you have to move] I would make arrangements for YOU to avoid her too. When you go to school and especially when you see her, you are triggered. Get someone else to take the kids to school. It will be inconvenient but it is preferable to being triggered every day when you see that slag.

You can start by completing the emotional needs questionnaire available in the "questionnaires" tab at the top of this website. Both you and your husband should complete separate forms and then discuss your answers.

I would also suggest that you read the book " His Needs Her Needs." My WH and I have found that book very helpful in creating a romantic loving relationship again.

I too thought my husband should beg, scrape, and grovel for my smallest bit of forgiveness .....

I hate to tell you but it wont happen while he is in the fog and still in withdrawl. I was very mad that Ihad to be the one that did all the work but one day the fog will lift and your husband will be back. He most likely will act then how you want him to now.

By that time for me, we were so much. "In love" again that I didn't need for him to do that. I was very supprised that I could feel that way but I did.

Trust the vets. They understand you are hurting and they have been there and done that and even though you are doing the work you are the one to reep the rewards also.

A good morning so far. No cross words or sarcastic comments.

Going for some NLP therapy - hope this will help.

Booked more counseling for next week; we will do this together.

Did the q'nnaire last night - very useful to get head straight. will discuss later once he has completed it.

AEK1,
My FWH and I are just 5 months in from D-Day, and it's still hard, BUT there are more good days in a week now than bad. I still get sad, and sometimes I'm angry about it, even as recently as last week, but each day I wake up, I tell myself that I will do all I can to be the best wife/person I can be that day. I still do often think of the affair, but I don't always bring it up anymore. H says the only time he ever thinks of OW is when I bring it up.

It takes great mental effort, especially while your H still harbors pleasant thoughts of OW. Maddening! But in our case, my H no longer thinks of her pleasantly at all, he says. She was standing ready to destroy our family and take away all we had built, and he sees that much more clearly now than at the beginning of recovery. Your H is likely still clinging to the fantasy.

Work out your recovery plan, starting with the Extraordinary Precautions. Then find out each other's emotional needs and start working daily to meet them. We worked through HNHN and Love Busters together.

It would drive me crazy to think of either of us ever seeing OW again; I would move move MOVE! Start over in a fresh place and make new memories for your family.

Be careful about counseling. Marriage counseling is often very destructive to marriages. Marriage counselors don't have the slightest idea how to save marriages and have a higher divorce rate than the general population. They have an 84% failure rate in the US.

What is "NLP counseling" and what is that about?

Neurolinguist Re-Programming....(I think!) Spelling will be wrong. Re programming your brain to think differently. Went to see him about getting rid of some of my anger and negative feeling. It was a good 2.5 hours I think. Wasn't really marriage stuff to be honest...more about me and how I get out of the black hole I am in. I need to get myself out of the pit. I need to grown tall again and stop hiding away and drowning in my own self pity. That's not good for recovery or self esteem! We have down some marriage stuff with an author who wrote 'How ca I ever trust you again' which is a good read.

I feel very safe in 'your' hands - I am so glad that I came across this site.....a community of people that understand at last.

AEK1,
This was very hard for me personally. I kept trying to figure out how DH and OW (who I thought was my friend) could look me in the eye and do such a thing. How do you just flip that moral switch and start living a lie? I just cannot get my head around it.

Trying to figure this out was wasting my time. You will never understand the "how".

I believe that it is okay and is part of the healing process to allow yourself to really feel the sadness and the anger of the betrayal. To just let yourself go with the emotion ... and then there comes the time to start focusing on the "now".

You are on the right path. Try to focus on what you can do to make yourself someone that you respect and can feel good about. Live your life with style and grace. Someone that your H will want to be around.

Anyone can get knocked down, but how you pick yourself back up is a measure of your strength and character. This was my meditation.

I worry about you having to see OW on a regular basis. I can personally tell you that it can drag you down - way down. Don't let that happen. Stay strong. Stay in control. Come here to vent.

Give some serious thought to moving. OK?

I did not have the ability to do that the first year. Instead what worked for me (similar though) was writing poetry. I am not good at it, but it worked. One thing I benefited from was that it captured the heart and soul of my feelings, and I was able to learn from it in that way. For more specific things i made lists, lists and more lists... That said, I encourage writing and journaling. It is healthy and therapeutic and it educates us.

CV

You are all simply amazing trying to help me. I feel stronger knowing there are some decent people listening.

Moving is so hard because of his job although I know it's the best idea. The children are going to the school where he will be working....

Moving is your best chance for a good recovery. If you don't move, your recovery will be very long and painful. Every time you come in contact with the POSOW you will be going backwards in recovery. Think of moving as a fresh start for you and your family...leave all the pain behind.

The advice is good.....I know it is....I can see it is the best thing to do.....but why cant she move????? My husband has a job starting in Spet where the children will go to school. Trying to find another job now in another county seems impossible. The children will then feel even more unstable not knowing where they are going.
Moving is the right option but then I worry that moving away from my friends and my support network could be a disaster. I am now sure I even want to be with him.
I am slowly coming to the conclusion that I would be ok alone, may be even happier....
How are you meant to fall in love with somebody who has betrayed you.
I get the be nice routine and don't slag off the OW routine....I can do that.....but when I look at him I see somebody I no longer respect or love.....does this come back?
I want to try and make things work for the children as I know this is the best solution for them and I can see us muddling through but if neither of us is happy we are very vunerable to having affairs - both of us.
Please help.

The advice is good.....I know it is....I can see it is the best thing to do.....but why cant she move????? My husband has a job starting in Spet where the children will go to school. Trying to find another job now in another county seems impossible. The children will then feel even more unstable not knowing where they are going.
Moving is the right option but then I worry that moving away from my friends and my support network could be a disaster. I am now sure I even want to be with him.
I am slowly coming to the conclusion that I would be ok alone, may be even happier....
How are you meant to fall in love with somebody who has betrayed you.
I get the be nice routine and don't slag off the OW routine....I can do that.....but when I look at him I see somebody I no longer respect or love.....does this come back?
I want to try and make things work for the children as I know this is the best solution for them and I can see us muddling through but if neither of us is happy we are very vunerable to having affairs - both of us.
Please help.

I played tennis with my girlfriends today. I want to get out and have some fun. I find it so hard though as they were/are friendly with the OW and their children still go to the school where my H worked and where I put in so much effort to make it a special place. I find the thought of cutting off this life and these friends so hard. They are important to me but if I listen to the advice, I think you are telling me to walk away and create a new life.

Please make plans to get out of that community. If you are triggered DAILY by this associations, I assure you that your H is triggered daily. If you stay there your life will be a life of hell. No job or school is worth that. Don't sacrifice your marriage and your children's family and your mental health over a job.

You know the thing that totally stinks about affairs, AEK? Innocent people get screwed. It's the nature of the beast. Families have to move, jobs have to be quit, children have to be uprooted from their school and their friends - through nothing these innocent people have done. All as a result of two selfish people and their poor decisions.

If there was another way to protect these innocent people, I'd be jumping on it in a heartbeat.

Think about it this way. Stay where you are because you need the support of your "friends" who are also friendly with OW. You divorce H because you are constantly reminded of the betrayal and therefore, cannot get past it. But even though you are now divorced, you will still be constantly reminded of the betrayal because you are still running in the same circles as OW. It is a lose / lose outcome.

Ditto.

I don't think you two have a shot of recovering your M unless you move, the sooner the better.

{{{{AEK}}}}

I agree with you.....but it's tough....no house, no job, no school, moving away from my business - but i hear what you say.....whay can't the OW move?
A

You could surely ask them to move, but I wouldn't expect them to. Honestly AEK1, I understand the comfort level, but is personal comfort worth the price of your marriage and family?

cv

Dear Melody Lane
I totally agree.....I just need to work out how to do this - it will not happen over night. Our social life, love life everything is knackered here so we have nothing to loose.

ALSO, how do I fall for him again? I am not in love with him - how could I be? To show tenderness and loving right now is beyond me!

Is staying together for the kids a good enough reason?
I don't think either of us love each other in the right way anymore. Should we try for the kids? If you have fallen out of love can you fall back in? How?

You may realise that I am feeling very down today. I am very scared about the future. I understand that the best thing to do is to move that that's not that easy....do you think an hour away is far enough for the memories to fade and the likelihood of us bumping in to the OW to be minimal?
I am scared about loosing my friends here and feeling very lonely in a new area. Surely this will make me resent my H even more...
I feel stronger and know that I can cope alone. I think we are only together for the kids. Should we try for a year for example and see where we are then. We are not fulfilling each others EN's so I guess we are both now vunerbale to having an affair. He has a job starting in Sept and the kids are going to school there.....I know you all say that moving is the only option but what if he doesn't get a new job - the kids will then not have a school to go to......

My advice stop being fearful and take each day as it comes, have a plan in place, actively work on the marriage and relationship, rebuilding the trust in a marriage takes a long time. Keep your mind clear, keep healthy and be with friends who help you laugh and smile.

It takes a minimum of two years for a marriage to recover from adultery. Staying together for the sake of the children is a good reason to give it all you have and then some. And you have a good opportunity here for you and your husband to fall in love with each other again if you follow MB principles. Start out doing little things. My H enjoys games and music. So I started with that. He loves sharing his knowledge of music, so I asked questions and listened to him. As far as SF goes, well, I guess we were sort of lucky that we had some major hysterical bonding going on. We still don't understand how that works, but we both think it helped a lot. Give it time...

About moving--I have moved many times in my life, due to a career military father and a husband who works for the government. I have found a new life and new friends in each place and thrived. Moving is stressful, but after a year in the new place and especially without the anxiety of seeing the OW, you are likely to find your family building new memories and a new and better marriage. I had no idea of my FWH's adultery when we first moved to this new place after his long deployment. But now that we are here, I am glad we have this opportunity to make new memories that belong only to us. It is impossible to run into OW here and no geographic triggers for either of us. Your children will most likely do just fine in a new place, especially as your marriage strengthens. They will find new friends, just like I did all throughout my childhood.

It is too soon for you to be thinking about this. (Although every betrayed spouse probably has at this stage.) Yes, you can fall back in love. Follow the MB plan.

I am still waiting for the book. What's the plan in the meantime. I cannot get her and him out of my head. I want her to suffer and hope she is really unhappy. Is this normal? How can I forgive the 15 months of sex and lies?

Your plan in the meantime is to do things with your husband that make you happy. What are they? Brainstorm. Dinner out? A walk in the park?

Yes, AEK, what you're going through is very normal. I know you want her to suffer. You wouldn't believe the thoughts in MY head about what I wanted to do to my OW. Another thing: treat yourself to things. Get that outfit you like. Buy the ingredients for a fancy meal and serve it by candlelight for just you and your WH. Do anything like that to make yourself feel better right now. Remember: when your WH was in his affair it was all about him. It's all about you, for now. That's how your marriage will heal.

Yeah unfortunately this needs to be less about justice and more about, what gets the job done? What you need to do is fall back in love with your husband.... having a strong marriage is good Justice against the OW anyway.... be sure to read His Needs Her Needs too

AEK1 - IMVHO, the kids are a good enough reason to TRY! You'll have to both work at it, but you can fall in love with each other again. Be honest, you did it before; right? If YOU feel you can't or it's so far gone that you don't want to try, then you're done. Don't stay in a dysfunctional marriage for the 'kids'. That doesn't make any sense - you'd be miserable, he'd be miserable and the kids would be miserable. What's the point of that? As another poster put in a different thread - this isn't marriage at all costs!

She can but she won't will she? Life isn't fair is it?

Your Husband will probably always have feelings for the OW - that is a flat out consequence of the love bank and how it works. You must build a romantic relationship with your husband so he is then in love with you but always know that the reason No Contact for life is so important is because if he has contact with OW, the affair can be rekindled in an instant of time. This is why you are being told to move away from OW. No Contact is vital for recovery from an affair.

I also have one other piece of bad news for you - in the book "Surviving an affair" the woman Sue never did apologise for the affair yet their marriage still recovered. You expect him to be grovelling his way back to you but unfortunately, as I said above life is not fair. Hopefully when he falls back in love with you again he will apologise.

I find it so hard to take that he will always have feelings for her. He loved her and I think continues to love her. Even though it was her who started the affair and her (through telling her cleaner) who ended it. There is somebody who has destroyed his life, brought his downfall but he cannot see any bad.
I understand he is angry that he ever got caught and is in a loveless marriage. I can see why he found me annoying during the affair... It made him feel justified in what he was doing. What's hard is some of the things he found irriatating about me he loved about her. I don't know how to get beyond this.
I am still waiting for the MB book as I can't get it in the Uk. I am desperate for the answers.
It seems like an impossible challenge to me and I have even written farewell letters to the children as some days i cant see a way forward and would prefer to give up.
I feel all the pressure is on me to make it work and know that if I mention her the day gets off on the wrong foot.

Thank you for good advice. Hard to do nice things with WH when you despise him. How do you do nice things together when neither of you are in love with each other.

Hugs to you AEK1, many, many hugs. This is so difficult, isn't it?
I don't know the answers because I'm in a similar spot. My H still has feelings for the OW too and I am finding it really difficult not to have a wall up to him. He's here though and I'm trying.

You sound as if you're depressed. Are you actually suicidal? Do you have a hotline you could call? A counselor? A friend/family member?

I started antidepressants and, while they take time to kick in, they do seem to help. You have to take care of yourself mentally and physically to be able to deal with this in any sort of healthy way. I really feel for you and me both.

On the how...I think we simply make ourselves do the MB suggestions...actions and feelings might follow. We hope they follow..given kids it would be a risk worth taking, right? That's what I'm telling myself.

Finally, we're in a mess too in terms of needing to move out of a shared town. I think it would help my H's recovery and so we're looking into making those changes now as difficult as they are financially and relationally.

I wanted you to know someone out here is online and reading what you wrote and cares...it's really late here and I'm heading to bed...but I wanted you to know you're heard and I "get it" if that helps.

Thank you for caring - it does help. Really it does. I am trying to be nice but then I remember how evil his behviour has been and how cruel they both were. It is clear that he no longer loves me a visa versa. Love Busters book arrived today so I will plough through this. The first few pages definitely make a whole load of sense and it makes me sad that we are even in this position. I just never knew he was even unhappy. I could feel him pushing me away and I suspected things but never an affair for 1.5 years......I do not want to be a doormat to him.....

I see you got Love Busters today. Have you also ordered His Needs Her Needs, the 2011 edition? I got both those books from Amazon this week in two days.

I'm in London. Where are you? (Be vague if you like: north, south? Not England?)

There are just so many books to read....I am going round in circles. I have LB and can see that it could really help prevent further damage and hopefully the Love Bank will start to refill. I have ordered Surviving and Affair but this has not arrived yet. Some like you have suggested that I read His Needs Her Needs but I am slightly overwhelmed but the pile of books by my bed. Which is the best. I need to start one and finish it rather than flit from one book to another.

Sugarcane - I am in the South East about an hour and a half from London. How are you coping? Have you survived the mess? IS the marriage really better? Did you have to move away or did he move job?

Dear MelodyLane
I want to make a plan. I want recovery. Please can you help me?

You can do fun things together, or you can do un-fun things together. Which do you think would be better? You've got to do something together. It might as well be the fun stuff, yes?

AEK1,

Hi just wanted to send my support and I want you to know there is and end to all this, you just need a plan to focus on....
Many marriages have turned around from very difficult positions.....
Try not to worry to much, you can't make sense of someone else's decisions, don't try, the only thing you can do is focus on the changes you need to make and then he will need to decide which life is going to chose.
Just go slowly change little things every day. I know it will be hard but you have to keep your eye on the future and know that all the steps you take today will get your there, there will be a lot of moments you think you can't do it, but do them anyway the feelings will follow........
You will feel a lot of rejection and hurt by words that are spoken, don't let that affect your plan, something you have to endure right now......
Slowly you will see his reactions change towards you.........be a safe place for him to land............always look good, smell good.........make him wonder if he is giving up the wrong person............
And lastly keep coming her, the vets are wonderful here, they will keep you on track..........
You will come out of this stronger and a better person. If your husband doesn't come back in the end you will be alright........
It is a long, slow process, but you will learn so much about yourself, what kept me going was the fact that I am not a quitter and that no one was going to steal my life............the thing is that my husband and his OW underestimated was ME.
I went in full combat mode.................
jessi

AEK,

I have been reading your thread. You seem to be at a crossroads with yourself.

On the one hand, you want to save your marriage.

On the other hand, you are stuggling with what you are "feeling" and what you know you have to "do" to get your marriage back on the tracks.


I have been there. Most betrayed spouses have been there!

Feelings can really set us on the wrong course of action. Fear of what "might" happen can cause us to make decisions that we might not otherwise make. When we "do" things that set us on a course of action, however, we are more likely to make better decisions, and we are much better prepared for most events that actually may come along.

This is because when we sit ourselves down and think things through in order to make a plan, we begin to look at true "probabilities"

instead of thinking about "possibilities".


Here is the difference:

It is altogether "possible" that a comet could hit my barn today at noon.
But!!!! What is the "probability" of that?


So, when we sit down and make our plans, we look at "probable" events. Do we sit down and plan for comets hitting the barn? NO!

Now, if you look at the MB layout, it plans for the probable events, and the lesser probabilities as well. It covers most bases in marriages, because it lays things out so that you can be very certain that you are covered. If you work this plan, if you give your effort, and if you establish no-contact, you have a reasonable chance of recovering your marriage and finding love between the two of you again.

I cannot, however, guarantee that a comet will not hit your barn.


As far as your anger goes, come here. Vent. Don't vent to your husband.

Don't vent to the dog, either. He won't understand, and he might bark a bit.


Schoolbus

I will tell you about my marriage another time, but for now:

Can you afford the Harley telephone coaching? It costs something like $200 per hour. Just one coaching session will give you a clear plan. If your H is willing to speak to a coach, the hour could be split between you but if not, you would have the whole session to yourself. You would not be on the phone at the same time as your H as this just leads to arguments.

The coaching sessions are held with either Dr Harley's son Steve, or his daughter, Dr Jennifer Chalmers, not with Dr Harley himself.

For an overview of the plan that Dr Harley sets out for all marriages recovering from an affair, read this article. It is a reprint of chapter 13 of His Needs Her Needs.

Listen to as many of the Marriage Builders' radio programmes as you can. There is a link to the radio archive at the top of every page on this site (in the red area).

Watch the free video by Dr Harley on infidelity here. Try and get your H to watch it too.

Do NOT, though, on any account, let your H discover this forum or your posts here. You will be advised by us to spy on your H, and you do not want him reading this advice, to you or to another poster in the same boat.

Yes. Additionally, the best revenge you can get on the OW is to do everything you can to MAKE it work. Want to get the other person back? Show them you care so much more for your spouse that you are willing to lay your own life down for them even when they didn't do it for you. Love has no greater gift than this: That a man/woman lay his life down for their friend.

Not easy, but rewarding. It is in the fire of the forges that true love is crafted, relationships that stand the test of time are built and true marriages are formed.

Be comforted. Your feelings are normal, and expect them to fluctuate. Keep in mind that the opposite of love is not hate, it's apathy. If you didn't love your husband, you wouldn't be hurt, confused or angry. you simply wouldn't care. It's not a matter of determining whether or not you love your husband anymore, but rather, how much, and can you (do you) want to build off that.

CV

thank you thank you thank you
Positive day today. have been model wife. No nasty comments although I have been tempted. talked about moving away. really believe he is trying and that there is def NC but still battling with being so *loody nice to someone who has *crewed my best friend. will try as hard as possible to win the BAFTA.

What is your answer to my question about the coaching?

Have you read the article? Have you looked at the video and listened to a programme?

I doubt very much that you have done all those things, so set aside a time to do them. Are you at home while your kids are at school? Can you watch the video tomorrow morning? Can you listen to the radio show while you tidy up in the kitchen after everyone leaves the house tomorrow?

I have started LB - it is very good.

I have watched the video too and ordered another booking from the MB website.

I have read the article.

coaching - I would love this and don;t care about the money - would just like my marriage to be back on track and thriving....not sure they would coach us in the UK though.

xx

Of course they would! They coach people all over the world! They have definitely coached people from the UK during my time on this site.That is what telephones are for; to allow us to speak to anybody anywhere in the world!

They are something like 5 hours behind us, so it would simply be a matter of booking a call that took place in the morning or early afternoon for them and in the afternoon or evening for you.

You can use a conferencing facility that allows you to call a UK number to speak to them, so you will not be racking up an international phone bill. I don't know how this is done, but I believe the Harleys know.

There is a link to the "counseling center" at the top of every page in the red area, and to the "coaching center" at the bottom. I don't know why the links have two different names; they are to the same place. Click and book yourself a call!

Thank you for the advice.
Had counseling today. It was quite useful.
Did the emotional needs q'naire and went through it before we went; it helped focus us I think. Sadly there was some pretty fundamental information that may prove problematic. He doesn't need affection and is happy to have it once per week (although loved it from OW and gave it loads); I rate affection as a 5!!!! He has told me that he doesn't like my affection and feels it suffocates him. I always thought that he would want the affection, attention and admiration but it seems that this is not important to him. However me ensuring that I am waxed regularly have make up on is important to him.....
He also says that sex is 5/6 for him and is only 3 for me. What I need him to understand is that if I do not get the affection, I will not want sex. Trying to find a route forward but his revelations are making me like him even less.

Hi AEK,

It is perfectly NORMAL for you and your spouse to have opposing emotional needs. This is what the book His Needs Her Needs (HNHN) is all about. It explains that men and women have opposing emotional needs and that is why marriage is so difficult... because we each have different needs and do not understand why our spouse does not like the same things we like. I would suggest that you order the book HNHN and at least read the first few chapters, which are all about women's need for affection and men's need for sexual fulfillment and how those two things are intertwined. It was very enlightening for me and my WH...worked wonders for our sex life too.

You may also find this link helpful:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html

As stated by Dr. Harley in the link above, whenever couples list their needs according to what they needed most, men and women always listed their needs the opposite way..."Of the 10 emotional needs, the five listed as most important by men were usually the five least important for women, and vice-versa."

That's useful and encouraging to know!!!!!

OWH has spread a rummour that my H has had an A before.....how do I found out if this is true. He has denied it like crazy but how do I know for SURE?

Schedule a lie detector test for your H. Tell him a day or two before the test that you scheduled it and expect him to pass. Tell him the questions that will be asked. He will likely spill his guts before the test.

But surely I am meant to being the perfect wife and trusting him totally.

He swears on the kids lives that nothing has happened before. I do believe him.

Trust has nothing to do with being a perfect wife. He has to earn your trust.

No-one on this site every said anything to you about trusting him at all, and in fact Dr Harley says the opposite.

He says that spouses should not trust each other. They need to see good barriers against affairs, and openness and transparency in their lives all the times, even in very happy marriages. Dr Harley writes that he does not totally trust his wife Joyce, nor she him. They trust each other as far as they can see each other behaving in a trustworthy, open fashion.

Why would you trust someone who had just shown himself to be untrustworthy over a period of more than a year? Nobody would ask you to do that! That would be madness!

My H swore on our daughters lives that he did not have sex with OW (read my thread: "Betrayed Again"), but when I scheduled the lie detector test he finally admitted that they DID have sex. Waywards will lie lie lie.

Not sure what to do...think suggesting a lie detector test would blow all the good work over the last few days up. Scared that my instincts could be wrong. They have to stop lying one day - why wouldn't it be about this?

Yes, it might cause some friction, but your H needs to understand that you cannot believe a word he says right now because HE lied to you. This is on him, not you.

On the other hand, you have to decide how much you want to know. Will knowing this information be too overwhelming for you right now? If so, then put off the lie detector until you are a little stronger. Whether you know about other affairs now or later doesn't really change the situation very much IMO. Your H is still a wayward and the recovery plan would still be the same.

You need to make it clear to your WH that there will be some heavy lifting required to recover from this. Don't make the mistake of getting back to 'business as usual' with your marriage. If you need to require a poly in order to know you've got the truth and in order to feel safe, tell your WH that.

It's just another thing he's going to have to deal with in the course of rebuilding the marriage he damaged.

Dear AEK:



That day can be a long time in coming.

It took me 22 years to find out the truth about my husband's first affair, 15 years to find out about a ONS I never knew about or suspected and 5 years to find out the truth about his second affair.

We counseled with Jennifer after his last affair. (At the time, I thought it was an EA when it was actually a PA). He lied to her and she believed him.

I believed him, too, and even went to therapy for over a year to work on "my" issues with trust.

I wish I had gotten a polygraph immediately.

There is still one in our future.

BV

A polygraph won't undo any good work, it will bring the truth out. If that upsets your H then his reaction should tell you something is very wrong. Your H should be willing to do whatever it takes to establish his truthfulness and give you some peace of mind.

I would schedule the polygraph and then tell him 2 days ahead of time. When you tell him hand him a list of questions and tell him he has one last chance to come clean but that he had better pass the test.

He won't stop lying unless you press him on this. Like Brokenvase pointed out, we have had waywards who lied for YEARS and YEARS. They would look their BS in the eye and swear on a Bible they were telling the truth. And they were lying. Help your H get over his lying habit by scheduling a polygraph. It will help restore the trust in your marriage.

That would be crazy to trust an untrustworthy person. That makes no sense and is not a part of Marriage Builders.

AEK1

Look at my signature and ask yourself how could her WH be sneaking around with the neighbor and family friend for 12 mo and she didn't know? It is because I trusted him. It was because I ignored my gut feeling and decided not to be one of those jealous wives. It was because I wanted to trust my DH.

Then ask yourself how the A could continue for ANOTHER 3 mo and once again I didn't know. It was because I thought I should trust him or we would never recover.

Trusting him only prolonged our recovery. He continued to lie because he was still in the fog and because he could (I trusted him). It had become easy for him to lie. He loved to turn it around on me and act offended when I didn't trust HIM. But really, why should I have trusted him? Because he said so?

I am not saying that you will never trust again but right now is way too early to be talking about trust. Is he being transparent with you and trying to earn your trust? If he is not doing this, it would be a red flag to me.

Big hugs.

I have told him I am considering the lie test. He is fine with that. A little surprised as this is not common in the Uk bit ok about it. Its sad isn't it that I still trust that he is not seeing her, that he loves me and that there has been no other affair. A better day yesterday... Trying not to mention the ow. The en ensure was interesting but I found some of his thing petty; he thinks I should always wear make up... How shallow is that? Ax

It just means he has a high need for an attractive spouse. That is a normal need.

I will put your WH affair(s?) aside for a moment and say that "petty" and "shallow" are strong disrespectful judgments. Belittling the needs of your spouse is an insult in marriage. How to fulfill your spouses need is a subject of POJA of course but to call your spouses need for attractive spouse shallow is something similar as to call your needs for affection childish/insecure or something.

Ok so he said he would do the test but then that would be that; marriage over. He would prove he I'd telling the truth but the. The marriage is over. I tried to explain that due to all the lies even though I wNted to believe him that the proof would help.
He does not get that.
He said he would prefer not to be treated like a prisoner! I don't ask him where he is going, I don't keep tabs on him much as he does really go out and is out of work. I would be more than happy for him to go out with the lads cycling fishing etc; it's him that makes himself the prisoner not me.
I feel low today as I feel he is clammy g me for the affair. I did things that annouyed him, he fell out of love because he did try or want to communicate. So I now feel it's all my fault. I was content he was the unhappy one.
He says the biggest issue beyond trust is falling in love again. Although he says he still loves me it's obvious that there isn't a lot left in the bank!
Not sure what to do. I am not going to beg, that's ugly. If he doesn't love my character and who I am then where do we go from here?
I have emailed mb about counselling but haven't heard back yet.
Please help.
Should we separate for a bit?
I am confused. Yesterday he said he wanted to grow old with me but today I'm not sure. Because I mentioned the lie detector test the mood has been set for the day.
He is pissed off his fun has been ruined.

Hm. Let's see, now. He was unfaithful and damaged his marriage. You want to make sure there isn't anything else you need to know, so you want to do a poly.

And HE'S saying the M is over?? He's bullying you. Either there is more that he isn't telling you, or he's trying to gain control of the recovery process. You don't want your wayward driving the recovery bus.

I am pretty sure that "after poly our marriage is over" plot is a last, desperate effort to keep you away from truth.

Even if he does not have anything more to hide (which I highly doubt), this plot means that he does not get it (what the A meant to you) at all and to continue the recovery is questionable effort anyway.

I do suggest you to follow through with the poly.

He says he is telling the truth. He has td me things that have hurt but says at least at that point he has been truthful. He is in control totally.

I have been following this thread for a few days now. AEK, my husband told me over and over that he was telling the ALL the truth. But he lied for more than a year and a half, initiated contact with OW more than 16 months after ending the A. It was only after we attended an MB weekend and started the program in earnest that he finally "got it", recognized the extent of the damage he had done with the A and the exacerbation of damage with his dishonesty following the A. He is not telling the truth. I agree he is bullyinng or gaslighting you by telling you that the M is over if you insist on a polygraph.

Also, your H's ambivelence about the marriage and his feelings for you suggest either contact of triggers. This is not the time for trust.

Finally, recon is right about the disrespectful judgments. As a BS, it is very difficult to keep our own side of the street clean. My problem was with angry outbursts. I was very resentful of my H's behavior and let him know it often. I had to control my mouth for real recovery to begin.

Bottom line: it takes two people to recover a marriage, avoid love busters and meet the spouse's emotional needs. I think counseling with the Harley's would be great for you and your H.

AM

It's not shallow at all!! It is not any more shallow than women's need for affection. He is telling you what it takes for him to fall in love. That is good!

The marriage is over anyway if you don't get the full truth. And you are not getting the full truth. He is still hiding alot, I would wager.


You must be kidding me? Being accountable to his wife makes him feel like a prisoner? What a very childish comment. Of course you should be keeping tabs on him. He is untrustworthy. I wouldn't let him out of my sight. He needs to be doing everything in his power to EARN your trust and he is doing NOTHING.

That will not work, AEK. I would let him know that if this is going to go forward you have to have the full truth and he has to account for ALL his time away. And frankly, he shouldn't be doing much of anything without you. I wouldn't agree to him going off with his friends.

AEK1

It strikes me that your H stated appearance as high on his EN since you have said that OW is overweight and very unattractive. Is he being honest with his EN or is he just "rewriting" history.

Does this seem off to anyone else ... maybe I am just reading too much into it?

I am going round in circles here. Strange but I do not believe he is hiding anything. But his comment re the lie detector has upset me. He is trying a little - he is here isn't he? He has promised no contact and I would doubt very much if he has broken this promise. But you are the VETS and I hear and trust what you say more than I do him right now.......The OW was fat but he thought she was pretty. He said he would care if I were fat if we were in love. But he has stated that I need to take even more care over my appearance. I love to send you a photo of us both - that comment makes me really angry. But I am doing everything in my power to make him fall back in love with me; not speaking about OW, not questioning about the A. Being as pleasant as possible. But I just get the feeling that he is not in love with me anymore although he said to the counselor yesterday that he was!

Why do you all think he is still hiding a lot???

Unfortunately waywards seem to follow a script, not telling the whole truth at one time is one of them, telling lies whilst in the start of recovery is another. For you it's the whole package that counts, his threats to divorce you if you insist on a polygraph are a huge red flag. What more is he not telling you?

May be a breakthrough. He has agreed to lie detector (very unusual thing to do in the UK). He has opened up a lot this evening saying he has been unhappy for 4 years. He talks to nobody. He has told nobody he was unhappy and it is hard for him - Dad died when 11 and not allowed to funeral etc. he has repeatedly shown my affection this evening and is trying really hard. I so want to believe him.....

I challenged him on this as I know he would have an issue if I was 16 stone.

Now he has agreed to the polygraph ensure you keep it handy, do some research where to have this done but do not book the session yet.

Buy him "His need her needs" and set aside a couple of hours each day for adult conversation, you decide what days are reserved for him to answer any questions you ask regarding the affair or outstanding items you wish to cover, let him know the schedule in advance.

Set a time limit as to how long you wish to question him then decide if you need to book the polygraph or if you can move forward with trust.

Maybe it is nothing ... I don't know. This just caught my attention because it sounds like he is protecting OW. My FWH did this when there was still contact with OW.

It sounds like he is moving in the right direction. Keep up the great work in your Plan A. Stand your ground on your conditions required for recovery.

Good night last night. He took me in his arms and said how very sorry he was. He said that he had been unhappy for 4 years.... Oh that hurt but atleadt he is talking. He doesn't talk so this was a good move forward. We made love and it felt right/better. He hopefully will see from that that when he shows affection his en are met!
Hoping for a good day today!

Will you follow through with the poly? I've heard that many waywards will hope that they have escaped the trap by agreeing poly but secretly hoping that the suspecting spouse will not follow through.

One poster here described that her husband finally made a confession just before the poly, when they were sitting outside in a car...

I will follow through with the poly. Not sure when I should do this. Any advice?

I don't agree with this advice. It goes against everything I have seen recommended here.

NEVER proceed on the basis of trust, especially after your H had an affair. Remember, this was a long, deep PA which has affected your H profoundly.

On this site, people are always advised to proceed with a polygraph and NEVER to abandon it. Even though the WS will start to confess days or minutes before the test, you must still go through with it.

Some confess only some of the details hoping that you will call off the test and not find out the rest of the details.

You need to tell him that the test is booked - perhaps a week in advance - and give him the chance to confess. Tell him that this is his chance to come clean, and if it is discovered in the test that he withheld anything or lied to you, there will be consequences (e.g. Plan B, if that is the next appropriate step).

However much he confesses, do NOT back down from the test. Trust is entirely inappropriate in your marriage.

AEK1,

Definitely follow through with the polygraph soon. My H and I had great hysterical bonding after D-day (the name for intense and frequent SF after D-day). My H was still not telling the truth. The day before the poly was scheduled a huge amount of information came out.

Also, I believe that one of your questions should be about the last time your H and OW were in contact. Your H's behavior sounds like continuing contact to me. Edit because I just read that OW is in the school area and you end up seeing her frequently. Move.


AM

Reading too much into it. Waywards tend to go for a class well below their spouse in many aspects.

He wanted to rut in the mud, and got himself another pig to rut with.

Get that poly scheduled and don't let his words appease you into inaction. I suspect he is trying to gaslight you and distract from proceeding with the poly.

It's so unusual to get polys in the UK. I don't know anyone who has done it.

We have had a good day and he has cuddled me a lot. We have listened to hours of MB radio too.....and I think he gets it. I am so nervous about the poly.......

Yes, that is my understanding. But it can be done. We have posters on here from the UK, and I'm hoping they'll be able to help you with the process.

Thanks for that. Certainly true in my situation. WH and pig snorting around in the slop.

AEK1,

This is what it is all about!

But don't let it fool you into thinking that all is now well. I made that mistake. See the two D-Days in my sig?

Stay strong. You will make it through.

I have no experience of this, AEK, except from watching the Jeremy Kyle show.

Don't let the UK factor or anything else put you off. There are polygraphers here and you will have to find one near to where you live. Try the Yellow Pages! And how about logging on to the website of Kyle, or Tricia, or others who run these confessional talk shows? There might be help lines attached, and there might be advertisers on the sites. You have to make a start somewhere instead of agonising. The first stept is research.

Going through with a test will give you power and knowledge that you do not currently have. Stop being frightened of acting on this.

Wow, mind power! I was thinking "Where's SugarCane" during my last post, and then lo and behold!

It confuses me, I always thought pure cane sugar was from Hawaii...

Better day - think he gets it now......

Naw. She's from England.

More like he thinks he can con you and stop you talking about polygraphs.

If you think this will be this easy you are setting yourself up for a huge let down and compounded hurt.

AEK1,

Yesterday he was threatening divorce over the poly and you were saying that you felt that he just didn't love you anymore.

Then poof overnight he agrees to lie detector, shows some remorse and does something to make you think he gets it.

Maybe he does get it ... but normally it is a more gradual process.

You must admit that it appears suspect.

Easy? You have got to be joking. My heart is in pieces. But I am doing everything I possibly can to fix my marriage. Reading books, listening to advice, doing exercises, in counselling..... Not sure I could try much harder. I have stopped being cruel about her, I am being positive and trying to indestNf and meet his emotional needs. I have really tried and having been abused and raped in my past I can confirm that this is way harder.
This is not a quick fix. I know that. I still plan to do the poky... It's just so alien here the Uk to do that....

The "alien" factor is irrelevant. Dealing with an affair is "alien" to everyone who is married and now faces recovery from an affair. We all have to do things that we have never experienced and never thought we would have to do, like exposure or changing jobs. These are a big shock and they are not easy to carry out, but they have to be done if an affair is to end (completely) and if (real, as opposed to false) recovery is to be undertaken.

Have you done any research into polygraphers?

Have you heard anything from the MB coaching centre?

Not a word from mb sadly. They are probay over run!

Yes I have found somewhere to do poly. Any advice on questions?

The problem is your husband throws you a crumb and you suddenly are brimming over with optimism - and that is just not realistic. Any crumb from him right now is manipulation. Pay ZERO attention to anything he says - it is only what he DOES that is important.

See him agreeing to a polygraph is not the same thing as him actually doing one.

You have a better day and you think he gets it..

He took you in his arms, said he loves you and was unhappy for years and you had sex with him - nice payback for him really!

You need to be watchful about everything he does because you are ascribing motives to his actions that are not realistic at this point. I'd say realistically it will be at least 6 months till he really 'gets it' and he will only get it if he is in NC with the OW.

You should be trying to meet his needs of course but be cautious in how you interpret this because it will cause more pain later when you come in here and say how you thought he was getting it and you were doing well but you have just discovered it's all a big lie. Protect yourself and don't expect too much right now. I know from personal experience how easy it is to grasp onto any little thing your WS says or does because of your overwhelming desire to turn back the clock to before your life as you knew it was destroyed. I know what it's like and I had a model FWW! I am really not trying to dishearten you but merely trying to instill some reality so that when you hit the inevitable downs it won't come as a shock and you will be able to bounce back.

We are 5 years out from my wife's affair and in all honesty I can really only now say that it is well behind us. People say it's 2 years minimum to recover and I actually now believe it's more like 5. I thought we were recovered at 6 months and we were mostly - but the affair still preoccupied my mind for years - it was the first thing I thought of in the morning and the last thing I thought of at night as I was going to sleep - and as I said, I had the ultimate remorseful wife and her affair wasn't even 'that bad' in comparison to many I have seen here.

This takes bucket loads of time and 'talking it up' won't help - although it's always good to be optimistic, remember quantum leaps in recovery are rare - it's slow and steady.

First you have to decide what you are trying to discover. Is is about the allegations of a prior affair? Or is it about continued contact?

If it is about continued contact, have you tried a keylogger yet? This will easily reveal secret e-mail accounts etc.

Are you monitoring his phone and texts? Have you read the snooping forum?

The thing with a poly is that it is a one shot deal. It may confirm no contact now ... but that does not mean contact won't pick up.

Remember that you are still in the same circles and town as OW. For your H this is like being a recovering alcoholic and having to look at that whiskey bottle sitting over there. It is hard not to give in.

Ask yourself what you really want to know. Then find the best way to get that info. If it is a poly, then do some research on google. I found several good articles when I googled polygragh infidelity.

I am trying to be positive and hopeful but I am reistuc too... It could all come crumbling down or I may just feel I don't want him anymore. However I have tried to meet his needs and not talk about her/the affair.
He doesnt use a computer now he is at work so key logger no good. Have checked phone; no messages. So not sure what other snooping I should do....
I don't want a big fall but I am trying to follow your advice so that he g
Falls back in love with me.

That's the ultimate goal for sure and a worthy one. (((AEK1)))

Do you think that he should write her a letter with me approving it - there has been NC for 5 months but a letter was never written.

AEK1,

I did not find not find MB until about 2 years into recovery. Therefore, I made many mistakes. One of them is that a NC letter was not written. This is something that I regret as I think it would have helped my own personal recovery to have seen him do this.

If I was back at the point where you are now, I would have him write one. The wording is important and there is a recommended NC letter on this site that you can use as a guide. Sorry I don't know how to get it into my post. Let me work on that.

Also, looking back, I think I would have made him write an apology to OW H. Sorry I was lying and pretending to be your friend while boinking your wife behind our families back.

Just for the record, I did get an apology letter from OW and it was full of "I'm sorry but ... It was insincere and she took zero responsibility. I burned it.

He needs to take full responsibility and address the hurt and devastation he has caused.

Keep taking steps forward.

Yes, the letter should still be written. Your husband should hand write the letter, but you should deliver it to OW yourself (or you should mail it yourself). In the letter, your husband should express his regret about the affair, how much it hurt you, and how he never wants to see or speak to OW again.

I also think you should install a GPS (such as zoombak) and a VAR (voice activated recorder) in his car. You can get these at any electonics store. This will not only provide answers to the question of contact, but it will also make you feel relief if he isn't in contact with her.

These measures (letter, GPS, and VAR) will protect you from a fake recovery. In addition, if your husband is truly not contacting OW, these measures will help you recover more quickly by putting your mind at ease.

As far as the lie detector...YOU need to decide how much about his past indiscretions you really want to know. It seems like you are not ready to hear any additional information at this time and I think that is just fine. If you truly want to know about possible other affairs, then go through with the lie detector. However, if you only want to know if he is no longer in contact with OW and committed to recovery, then you can use other measures (GPS and VAR) for that information IMO.

Once I found out that my WH had sex with OW I decided I didn't want to know anything more about the affair or past indiscretions. The pictures already in my head were too much for me to handle. The only thing I REALLY wanted to know (or could handle knowing) was if my WH was committed to NC and recovering our marriage. As a result, I didn't go through with the lie detector. Insead, I used other measures (see the Operation Investigate forum) to ensure that he was not in contact with OW. If there is NC with OW, then I know he is committed to me and our marriage. Does that make sense?

Drop in at his new job "unannounced" with a nice framed picture of you and the kids as a present for his desk.

Sit down at his computer and look at the history log. I have noticed that different user log ins will have a different URL. So if he has a secret account you will see hotmail with different bay numbers. If that makes sense. Try it on your own computer to see what I mean.

If he "gets" it he will understand that you are doing this for your own peace of mind.

Make sure to meet his colleagues and let them see that you are a real person who loves her H.

I am worried that owh will get fired up by a letter to his wife.

He has calmed down and I worry that correspondence from
H could blow it all up.

This was my concern also. I still regret not having H write that letter. It is part of taking ownership, dealing with consequences and showing you that he will do what it takes to protect the M.

He should write it believing that you will deliver it. Once you have it, it is your decision whether you deliver or not. You let him believe that it was delivered. You could opt to personally deliver to OWH yourself.

Not sure what the vets would recommend. I hadn't found them yet.

FWH and I just discussed the issue of the NC letter this morning. He had only told the OW by email that he was "going to do the right thing," and that she should no longer contact him. Then I found MB, but it took a while to get to the part about the actual NC letter. She was still emailing him through work, and he told her he would write her a special letter with the request of no contact and that she must respect his wishes. She replied "Don't bother." I saw that email. And that was the last contact I have seen.

But I always felt like I was kind of left hanging without that proper NC. It's been six months since they were last in contact. I would have liked him to tell her all the great stuff in the official NC letter, not that he was "going to the right thing," making me feel like a last, disagreeable option. Ultimately we decided that we really didn't want to open anything again. We didn't want any reply emails or word of any sort, so our decision was, "well why do it now?" So we aren't sending one at this point. Don't know if this will help, but FWIW...

I personally would not send a NC letter after 5 months of NC - that doesn't make any sense to me.

I agree. Why kick that hornet's nest especially if NO CONTACT is confirmed?

So no nc letter. Do poly. Should I ever write to ow!

I don't know how this jives at all with MB protocol....

One thing I did was have my wife write letters of apology to everyone that knew about the A. She wrote a letter to the family apologizing for breaking them up, she wrote letters to her former friends apologizing to them for involving them in sin. She wrote others that knew apologizing for her part in it as well...

We never heard anything back, except from the OMW... She was furious, but we needed to send it for us. We sent ours after several months of NC.

CV

What would be your goal? I don't see that it would serve a purpose.

My wife did write to OM's W actually - I think her basic sense of decency made her appologise for wronging her however there is not a lot of point in you contacting OW - what purpose would that serve apart from allowing you to vent at her? See after 5 months of NC, WHY open that door again? It could lead to contact which is the last thing you want. My wife also apologised to my parents.

You MUST get the polygraph because quite frankly your husband is a liar and that is the only way you are likely to get to the bottom of the rabbit hole.

Outside that, you need to concentrate on working the program to restore your romantic relationship and always make sure your husbane is utterly transparent with you in all things.

Still reading love busters. No sign of his needs her needs.

Is there an actual plan I can download anywhere or is it following the principles in these books?

I had to wait for my books to get to me, too, and reading what's right here on the website was of great help. There is a link on the right side "The most important emotional needs." There is also an emotional needs questionnaire. Both would be a good start. Lots of stuff linked from the homepage on surviving an affair as well as all the basic policies of Marriage Builders. I would start with the emotional needs, along with reading about Love Busters.

My books took over two weeks to get to me. By the time they arrived, my husband was coming out of the fog a bit and we could read the EN and LB books together, a chapter at a time each night. We read SAA individually. I read it first. He read it about a month or so later, when he could better understand.

The "actual plan" is written in the Surviving an Affair article that I linked for you a few days ago.

The first step is complete NC. Remind me: are you the poster whose WH works at a school that keeps him and OW connected? If so, you cannot take the first step until and unless he changes his job.

He resigned back in dec. They have had no contact for 5 months.

I am sure of that.

We have read love busters and done the emotional needs qnaire which was very interesting.

I have read everything that I have been sent.

Well then, you know that the second step is transparency. Are you and your H transparent about your daily lives? Is there scope for him to have a secret second life?

The third step is to build a new marriage, spending over 15 hours per week focusing on each other. There are 4 specific ENs that you should be meeting during this time. Have you established a schedule for spending this time together? What does it look like?

You say that your H has read the book LB too. That should mean that he is on board with MB. MB is an entire programe that requires you to work through specific exercises. You need the books LB and HNHN to see what these are, and you need the workbook that goes with them.

If you haven't heard from the coaching centre by tomorrow evening, you should contact them again.

Also have a look at the MB online programme. With that, you re assigned a coach who will work with you as you do the exercises from HNHN and LB. You will be given a schedule for you to complete the exercises and you will be required to give your answers to the coach. The programme is supervised by Dr Harley, which is the best help you can get.

Did you order HNHN from Amazon? Can you check the progress of your order? I got my copy 3 days after placing the order. I can't understand what has happened to yours.

How near to you does OW live? What are your chances of bumping into her?

Also, what is the deal about the school? I can't make out from reading the beginning of this thread whether your kids and hers go to the same school, but there is still some connection through the school. What is it?

You must break this connection. You have baulked at the idea of moving house, but your recovery will not start if you have a school or residential link to OW.

Her kids are at same school as mine. Boys are best friends a d sit next to each other!!!
My great friend is still in touch with ow which is hard for me.

Don't see her often but have potential to see her every day.

Will check amazon tomorrow.

Not getting much remorse from h. He seems so laid back about the whole thing. It's not just a marriage disaster; we lost our house our job some friends and our kids have lost all of that as well as moving school.

Well you must be able to appreciate that these are not the conditions under which recovery can start.

How did you lose your house? Forgive me as I know you have posted this before, but I can't piece this together very well.

I suspect that your H is not showing remorse because there is contact. He is still in the high of the affair and he has no reason to feel remorse towards you. My husband was the same.

Does he ever go to school to collect your kids? Does he ever bump into her, there or anywhere around town? Is he at home all day having lost his job? How do you know what he is doing all day?

I just don't see how you can be sure there is NC. It's a miserable position to be in and I sympathise because I too have never been in a position to be sure. I can only reiterate strongly to you that if there is the possibility of contact, then there is probably contact.

You may need to sever contact with your best friend for your own well being. Also - I agree with Sugarcane - no remorse after 5 months of NC is IMO a sign that he is in contact with her.

He doesn't express his feelings or emotions which is why this all started!

I don't think he is in contact at all as I am with him all day; he resigned as headmaster and never goes to school. I am confident about this.

I haver seen her a few times but do not speak; seeing her is hard enough!

He is sorry but I don't think he get how hurt I am. It is like a bulldozer. Not only the adultery but the loss of everything else. Hideous is not the word.

We both want to make it work and are trying but there are triggers that make the past seem so fresh.

Sometimes I don't like person I see. How could he do this to me and his good friend? Surely he is no worthy!??

When will I know if I actually wNt to be with him? We are working hard but the betrayal still dominates.

I can see where I went wring and how u need to change but this will never go away.

Well the only way it goes away is when you go through it. The betrayal will affect you for years - at least 2, probably 5.

AEK1 - I don't trust him and I don't believe him. 5 months of NC would result in him having a better attitude. You MUST schedule that polygraph and ask a question regarding if he has had any contact (phone, text, internet..... you get the idea)

The fact he threatened to end your marriage if yu pushed for this is a red light.

He is doing NOTHING to put your mind at ease and rebuild trust and love.

When will I know if I actually wNt to be with him? We are working hard but the betrayal still dominates.

I can see where I went wrong and how u need to change but this will never go away.

He is trying but it doesnt come naturally.

bigkahuna has been trying to tell you that for some people, this takes at least two years.

Some of us know from D Day that we want to be with our WS, even though the betrayal dominates. We feel just as strong love for the WS as we always did, even in the midst of our hurt.

Some of us know with our heads that we want to be with them, but we do not feel that in our hearts for over a year, and only then if the WS puts in a lot of effort at recovery. When I say "in our heads", I mean that we work out that a long marriage with children is worth recovering, and we do not want to throw all we have away. Our hearts, though, are broken, and we do not feel love for a long time.

Some people know that they do not want to stay with the WS, regardless of feelings of love, or perhaps because knowledge of the affair kills the existing love. Those people leave soon after D Day, or they stay for a while but never really re-enter the marriage.

We vary in how we feel although there are common patterns.

Change is not very natural for most people. Relearning good habits is hard and takes time. As time progresses, it will become natural.... Think of riding a bike... You have to learn to balance, pedal and steer at the same time. the more you do it, the better you become.

As it becomes more natural for him, I think you will see the change as more genuine and be able to accept it better. It may help with dealing with the hurt and bitter feelings.

CV

Thank you, your words are so wise.

Saw my friend who is still friends with ow today. Brings everything flooding back. She is one of my greatest friends; it seems so wrong that I cannot be friendly with her anymore. But I need to protect mysf from the pain...

Question... Does she consider you one of her greatest friends?

If so, you may want to ask her how she can be friends with a person who is so reckless and dangerous as to put other families in danger....

Thanks, BTW, Big Kahuna's suggestion of a polygraph is a good one. It may settle things in your mind as well. If you are worried about the money, look at it this way....

His A is making you sick. This is a visit to the physician that will help you heal. It is a medical necessity for you to get better.

My friend says she is supporting ow husband as we were all good friends. She will not choose.

If your friend is married, she needs to be very careful maintaining that friendship. Your husband wasn't 'special' to OW. She'll be looking around for another man to fill her needs and the next one could be that friend's husband.

AEK1, moving was discussed earlier, any more thoughts about that?

If you are unsure this would be necessary for your situation, I would recommend you write into the radio show to see what Dr Harley tells you. My guess is that he tells you you need to move inorder to R...

Ifthe ow would do it again, why wouldn't my h? Surely my friends h is safe if they have a good marriage. Maybe ow and get husband are sorting their en out and are on the road to recovery?

We will move. No question. It won't be long now. I would still like to see my friends though... It's so tough.

they can visit after you move! :-)

Are these friends also friends of OW? If so after you move, you may want to think about giving them up....

You are in a place where you are constantly reminded of the A & OW because of your proximity, but once you get to a good where you don't trigger anymore (most of the time), you will see how just one bad trigger will set you back and you will understand the importance of avoiding it...

There is no guarantee that your H won't do it again. BUT, if your H is on board with MB principles and has set up EP and you are meeting each others EN then chances are better that he will not go outside the marriage.

You can never know for sure about OW and her BH. All you really know for sure about OW is that she had no problem stepping into your marriage and causing total destruction.

You don't know that they're working on things, and you don't know how successful they will be, even if they are. And you truly don't know how safe your friend's marriage is. I wish I had a nickel for every BS on this site who posted here, thinking they had a 'good marriage'.

One thing you do know for sure: OW had an affair with a married man (your husband). That makes her dangerous to any marriage.

Your H won't do it again because you're going to use MB tools on this site to affair-proof your M.

Yep - what MB said!

If your friend is so unwise as to 'support' OW's H, there is indeed a good chance that will end badly for her marriage. That is how affairs start and it makes no difference if her marriage is solid or not. Discussing personal issues with anyone you are not married to is a fasttracked recipe for an affair. And you said this friend will not choose? So her moral compass isn't working so good either is it?

As MB said, if you build a romantic relationship with your husband and implement extraordinary precautions (to ensure no OW meets his EN's again) he won't stray again.

Oh this is sooo sooo true. placing space helps avoid triggering so much its not even funny.

CV

My friend and her h were also friend with ow and owh. Her view is she has to support both couples. If she supports me and my h she feels she needs to do the same for them. I get her point but it hurts seeing her as I can no longer have the same relationship with her; she has clearly said she doesn't want to talk about ow or the a. Thereforey friendship is a bit false as those things are the my biggest problems right now. Do I explain this to her or just walk away?

Dump her and go silent , as a thinking person she has a choice to fraternise with those who commit wrong or keep her distance. Her contact with them implies she supports them and by this association is willing to hurt you.

Step away from the hurt.

AEK1,

Your DF did not ask to be put into this awkward situation any more than you did. My guess is that your friend is a good person who is misguided and misinformed about affairs and how to truly recover from them.

The reality is that you need to remove all the triggers holding back your recovery. This means that you now need to make new friends and remove yourself from the drama. I would explain to your friend as best you can what you need to recover. This means being around people who can support you and who are not connected to OW.

I know affairs suck. If she is truly your friend, she will understand.

This is one of the most devastating aspects of A's... They don't just destroy friendships, but extended family relationships, friendships, work... there is nothing left untouched. A's are all encompassing in their damage...

Cv

I am playing tennis with her tomorrow. Not sure of to explain or just withdraw!!!

Things are improving with h. Changing bad habits is so hard though.

Moving from school in a few weeks; I think this will really help.

Seriously, if she is that good a friend, and if she cares that much, she will understand why you are protecting yourself. Make yourself notes. points you can make when you talk.

She understands but says that she is being fair to both couples who were good buddies.
She understands that seeing her triggers me but is not willing to cut ties with ow.
I feel I have lost everything. Why is it the innocent suffer so much?

This is going to sound hard - but how are you feeling after spending time with your friend? Has it brought you any happiness?

No it is not fair and is not something that you signed up for. But it is how it is.

I remember how sad and alone I felt standing at the school watching OW joke and laugh with the other mothers who were also "my" friends and neighbors. It was not fair and there was nothing I could do about it.

Moving house and removing myself from that environment lifted a "HUGE" weight off my shoulders. I then started to truly recover and move forward.

I felt sad because it brought back memories.

I felt happy because we had a hug and I think she understood.

However she is still going to see ow and I don't think she will change that.

It's hard to drop a great friend but I have to move away from her.

H has read his needs her needs and seems like a different person.....

A friend who *has to* support the OW is no friend worth keeping.

{{{aek}}}

A friend who would support posow in any way isn't a friend. WHO WERE THE VICTIMS HERE? You support THEM.

I know your friend is trying to be politically correct here and feels in the middle, but I'd hand to my bff a copy of the latest gossip mag and have her read it (one with sadly Maria and Ah-nold on the cover) and ask her which team would she be on? Team Maria or the posow (I call that ow "brownbagger" b/c of the obvious reason). Tell her what would she do if she read about your situation? Who would she hurt for exactly?

If she didn't change sides, I'd tell her that the hurt and pain inflicted on YOU by your WH and other so called friend is why you can't be around her. And I'd tell her that SHE caused it. The onus is NOT ON YOU, it is on the friend, the posow, and your wh right now. You're innocent and you'd wish to have supporters, not detractors and esp not have a friend secretly stab you in the back by being friends w/ow.

Is OW's H not also a victim though? It would seem, then, that the only reasonable recourse is for the friend to dump both couples, since partners in each have demonstrated moral depravity.

Exactly. But in my situation, I found that the neighborhood was not willing to do this and wanted to remain loyal to both BS. Which basically meant that they still socialized with not only the BS but also the WS.

This did not work for me so I removed myself from the neighborhood.

When is the polygraph scheduled for AEK1?

(Pokerface - can't tell you how similar your situation is to mine)

She was good friends with owh. How can I expect her to drop him for me. She is trying to be fair...

Think I will have to drop her. I don't think that they socialise but their kids are in the same class and will be for the coming years whereas we are leaving in 6 weeks. I have tried to warn her about this woman but she feels she needs to be fair.

It's so unfair isn't it. May be our friendship will survive or can be revisited once we are recovered. How long does full recovery take? I am feeling so much more confident now.
He wants to make this work.

I have drafted a letter to the ow. Not sure if it's a good idea. It made me feel better writing it though. I want to hurt her; is that normal. I know if I send it it may back fire and it could get messy/open the wounds again.
However I want her know in black and White that my h didn't love her ... She was just a sexual addiction.
My h has read hnhn and is keen for me to catch up... He says it's a great read and it has helped him see the A for what it was and that our M is far more valuable. He is following all the rules.

NC is for both of you! Definitely don't send her a letter!

Great to hear your H is reading...

It's hard as his job dictates where we live. He is committed to us; I can feel it. I believe we will be ok. The hnhn book has really helped both of us. He is quoting segments at ne and has taken it on board.

Hate Monday's as threat of seeing her but each Monday is better...

Aek! This is sooooo unhealthy for you and your R! NC is #1 step of recovery for both of you.

You need to brainstorm and figure out a solution so that you won't have to see the OW anymore.

Here are some ideas: Do you have a friend or family member that can help you drop the kids off? Can you go to the school 15 minutes early? I don't know how old your children are but can you drop them off down the street and have them walk a bit so that you don't have to pull into the school??

I am avoiding her most days. Sometimes I see her car but that's about it. Thankfully. The joint friends is more of an issue...
We are def getting there with the help of marriage builders.
Still a long journey but seems more achievable.
It will help when the kids leave the school.

Things continue to go in the right direction. I havent' see OW at school for ages now which is good. Sadly when the news first broke people accused me of harassing her....and stalking her - all complete lies. Somebody even heard a story about me breaking in to her house....what rubbish. I guess she was spreading the rumours to make her look better - and it worked. This hurt me a lot. She has told many people that she really loved my H which also hurts - she's almost using it as an excuse to gain support......when will she get her downfall? I know I should want that but I seem to have been punished from all directions yet she still has her house, job and her kids are still at the wonderful school my H created....all so wrong. Do you believe in what comes around goes around?

I don't believe "what goes around comes around," not in this life anyway. If it actually worked that way, there wouldn't be so many innocent people hurt by creeps. Rain falls on the just and unjust alike. I would LOVE to hear that the OW in our case was hurt in some way (yes, there it is, I said it) but it's not necessarily likely to happen. More than likely, she will continue to live her life without consequences of the pain she helped to contribute to my life. I can only take comfort in the fact that I have my husband back and that she didn't "win."

I can't imagine the constant threat of having to run into her, though. I'm glad we live nowhere near her. Yuck.

(((AEK1)))

I know exactly what you are saying. I was painted as the psycho jealous wife. And people believed it because she was soooo good at lying and playing the victim. She basically got off scott free with her life intact. While my life (and my family's) was devastated and will never be the same.

I DO believe that she will get what is coming to her (both your OW and mine) because they have not accepted any blame or faced any consequences. OW has not changed and continues with her self serving behavior because she can. It is just business as usual.

It is only a matter of time until she hurts someone else and then people will begin to see her true colors. It may take awhile - but it is coming.

Someone once told me "Whenever you think of revenge...think of digging TWO graves". This is so true. AEK1, the OW will dig her own grave all by herself. You do not have to help her.

bigkahuna,

I like your name. I tried unsuccessfully to find your thread but I guess it was lost in the big crash that I keep reading about.

It is disturbing how often this story plays out and how often it is exactly the same.

It is great that we all found each other here for support.

Another indication that she has not changed and is not cleaning up her side of the street. Destroying a family is NOT love. She is dangerous and remains a threat to your M and others.

It is unlikely that this happened, because bk has been here for about 5 years, and the crash was in 2009.

Click on his name, then "view posts", then "topics created'. His thread, if he had one, is likely to be there.

Not everyone has a thread, though. I'm one of the annoying people who never started one. My story is scattered all over other people's threads!

Thanks SugarCane.

I guess I am one of those annoying people also. My tiny thread was started well into recovery and deals only with the part about OW using her kids to interject herself back into my life (take note AEK1... I did not move far enough).

Why can't people see through the OW. Why do the victims get all the blame. OW has painted her to be the remorseful person that wears no make up and looks like she has been crying all the time. Why are people flocking around her and being her friend....I dont get it! I have be blamed for all sorts - harassment, bullying, you name it...and I have done nothing except had my life ruined. I hope one day she suffers....sorry but I do.

Well that would last about one nanosecond with me around. If I saw her out in public and she was going around with the "po po ho me" look, I'd call her out in public.

I'd say to her, D*MN STRAIGHT YOU BETTER CRY, because you almost ruined my family, you and my husband broke MY heart and broke the heart of MY children, and you go around crying? You should be bloody too right now, from being down on your knees begging me to forgive you.

But people believe her. She tells them I harass her, they believe her. She even told people I broke in to her house....She is such a liar. Thankfully my H now sees that and I believe he is committed to MB and working things out. He has read more of the books than me.....and I have a stack of them beside my bed. We have had a positive 10 days - I still wake up thinking about the A - when does this stop - please don't say 'never!'

I hope she is unhappy but I really don;t think she is - people are nice to her. Her H has so much money that she gets everything she wants. He seems to be just getting on with it and it's business as usual.

I don;t think people can do this without the help of MB - I have already shared the word with many friends who are having trouble.

Pray for these stupid lost disillusioned souls that they do not become her next target. These people are idiots if they cannot figure out for themselves to question the word of a woman who would sleep with her own friend's husband for 15 months. I mean come on ... really?

You will only stop thinking about it when you remove yourself from the drama. Then it will slowly start to fade. It is normal for the anger to continue and to pop up totally unexpected. Find ways to positively deal with it. I think it was mentioned that you to start a journal. That sounds like a good idea.

Don't take it out on H who sounds like he is trying. But he needs to find a job away from that area. He needs to be willing to do whatever it takes to protect his family.

Oh and when you do move, that vindictive OW will find someone else to be the enemy and to keep herself entertained. It won't be fun anymore when you are not around.

Yeah - I never had it all in one place either - only posted bits and pieces. The affair was over by the time I found MB and we were into recovery so there never seemed any need to post it or to ask for advice. I did everything pretty much correctly intuitively.

About 5 years actually - and that's if you get the full truth and recover your marriage.

Speaking of 'full truth' you are ignoring my questions about the polygraph.

Should my girlfriends also be weary of my H then? Will he approach them or are WW more dangerous?

Polygraph is booked for next week....def nor ignoring anyone on here... Your advice is invaluable.

Sugarcane.... You did it all alone with no advice.... How on earth did you do this?

Moving in July... Thank goodness. Cutting ties with friends here will hurt as it will feel as though she has won.. But atleadt she hasn't got my H.

Frustrated that people have previously believe her silly stories... ESP the senior people at school who seemed to protect her... Quite twisted. Is the scorned woman always the one that is poorly treated by others? I guess others are a little scared of OW and in my case all my friends/patents know that she is staying at the school and we are leaving,.. I dislike people who are that shallow.

I don't understand the question. - members of the opposite sex must always be careful that they don't meet intimate EN's of the other person else they can fall in love with them. One of the major ways you affair proof your marriage is by having boundaries aroung opposite sex interactions. - extraordinary precautions.

So your husband is only a danger to them and their marriages if he is for instance talking to them about your marriage problems or theirs.

I think a part of it is that they see you as defective because you weren't a good enough wife to keep your husband from straying. I know that I experienced this as well. I often wonder how OM'sW was ever able to have a relationship with OM after all their friends supported him in his affair with my wife. It's a really weird dynamic. Mind you OM'sW got together with OM after they both had an affair on their first marriages.

AEK1 - people in the wider community just don't understand anything about adultery. Look at Arnie and Maria Schriver - unfortunately there will be many people in the community that will say she deserved it or she wasn't a good wife.... It's just the way it is. Even your best friend thinks she has to be 'fair' to both sides. The fact that OW was a home wrecking whore who tried to destroy you and your family isn't really a consideration. I don't get it either.

One thing that bk did wholeheartedly was MOVE AWAY from the neighbour/OM. He let his house and moved right away, and only went back when the neighbour/OM eventually moved away.

I did it badly. I am not recommending my path to anyone.

I lived through about 6 D Days in 3.5 years. Only when I began browsing Dr Harley's articles was I able to get my H to give up his travelling job (at 3.5 years). it was only 6 months after that, though, that I actually began reading the advice on the forums, and saw how hard people here pushed exposure to the other BS. I had had the other BS's personal details in my possession (from the Internet) for nearly two years and had never dared to use them. I told myself that I would be breaking up a marriage and I could not do that.

Having read (but not posted) here, I exposed to OWH at nearly 4 years (in 2007). The EA was dealt a blow, but again contact resumed after many months, entirely at my H's workplace, which I could not monitor. I found out about that contact last month. My H has left his job altogether now, and we signed up for the MB online course just last week. I only NOW feel that we are doing things properly and not winging it.

I re-exposed to OWH and also to our extended family, who have rallied round with the most amazing love. I had never told them before. I had told my kids, but not about how serious things were. Telling them properly this time, and making my H speak to each of them and apologise and promise to work to keep our family together, has built in an extra layer of accountability that will be hard for him to escape from.

I did a lot of this all alone with no advice, but with great cost to my emotional health, and to the marriage. The levels and amount of deception that my H engaged in have made it hard for me to gather enthusiasm for yet another attempt at recovery, but using the MB programme properly for the first time, with him on board, is making all the difference.

Got really upset today as heard that OW is playing tennis regularly with people who I still consider friends. Their excuse is they like playing tennis, they feel sorry for her as she is lonely and because they are giving my H a 2nd chance they feel they should also extend this forgiveness to her. I find it SO hard as I am lonely. I hate the thought of dropping all my friends....she wins again. But I guess they have a point.

I have tried to explain to my friends that I find it hard and that it triggers feelings and hampers my recovery but they don't get it......aching.

Don't expect them to understand and you won't be disappointed. You need to move in different circles to OW even if it means you have to get new friends and hobbies. Your husband is just as guilty for the affair as the OW. If your friends care more about OW than you there's nothing you can do about it.

This is why you need to move away. The only people who get it are those who have been in it.

How do I stop them thinking I am a nutter???? They think I am making an unreasonable demand...so I loose my house, my jobs and my friends....

(((AEK1)))

Not much you can do except hold your head high and look them in the eye.

Trying trying......it's hard as it makes me feel lonely. I am surprised that so many people want to be her friend......strange really - they must see what she has done to me. My H seems fully on board with the MB programme and has read HNHN and LB - he thinks that they are amazing. I would consider flying to the US for a MB weekend but I never heard back from the team.

AEK, I would drop the friends and not look back. If they are going to support her, they are not worth your time. Seriously. You need to focus most of your attention on your R right now anyway...

Re the MB weekend, they are not held anymore. Instead they offer it online seminar with a past weekend on video. Like the weekend program, you will get year of follow up/guidance with an MB accountability coach who works directly with Dr Harley. You will also have lifetime access to the private forum where Dr Harley posts.

You mentioned feeling lonely, how much UA time are you and your H spending together?

Soooo frustrating! People are terrified to stick up for what is right. They don't want to ruffle feathers. Cowards....

ITA with Susie, AEK. Look at it like this: you have survived a life-altering event. As such, you have gained a completely different outlook and perspective now. Those friends from your 'old' life don't have that. You have outgrown them.

A friend has just called to say that the OW thought that my H was going to leave me for her....shes telling everyone that?

I know it's not true but that's what she thought - that's how she is justifying her behaviour to everyone and now they feel sorry for her!!!!!

It's her attempt at saving face.
Lame-o.

Sometimes I'm a little slow. Is this in the present or past tense?

Sorry past tense. She had coffee with a friend a month ago and said "I thought X and I would be together now".........I cannot believe that she really thought that - why is her H still with her....I don;t get that. And I don't get people being her friend....

Bigger question: and they still don't realize what a skanky friend they're running with?? Silly wayward. Silly friends.

The friend that told me 'gets' it totally and can see her for what she is.....but others cannot and are telling me to move on......they don;t understand that contact with them triggers me.

AEK, you're going to have to go NC with these people. Do it and don't look back.

They were living in a fantasy world. This is typical wayward babble and from how you have described the OW it seems completely in character. It's all about her with no regard for your family or her own.

I will say to you what was posted to me ... "Can you see that you need to get out of there?"

For the past few days you seem to have gone into a backward tail spin and it is all related to issues with the OW. She is pulling you down and you will never get out as long as you remain in her circle. She is manipulative and vindictive.

July is not soon enough to move. Take control of your life and start to take those steps forward again. As maritailbliss said, you have outgrown your old life. She is very wise.

You people are so wise....not sure what I would do without you.....have suggested this site to many of my unhappy friends. NC is the only option.....it's just very lonely. In reality there are 3/4 people that see her and I can do without them in my life. I am fine with everyone else; it's just those that continue to see her that trigger me.....shame that one of them was my local BFF.

One thing I struggle with is why I should expect my friend to choose between us. She and her H are friendly with OW and OWH as they are with me and my H - how can I expect her to choose...? I guess I am the one that has to....sad.

Aek, can we get back to your R? How much UA time are you and your H spending together a week? Are you scheduling it and what types of things are you doing?

AEK1 you're going round and round in circles here trying to make sense ot the unsensible. See for me, I don't like to associate with home wrecking whores - but that's just me. You aren't asking her to choose - it's just her moral compass is not aligned with decency - not your fault and nothing you can do about it. I personally don't associate with people who try and wreck marriages and families.

Yes. She has waaayyy to much power over you. Take that power back. She doesn't exist in your world and anyone who chooses to befriend her shouldn't exist either. They are not friends to your marriage.

We are def spending 15 hours together per week as he is not working and I am doing Pt. We are plating golf, walking , chatting, looking at houses. Does that sound ok?

I suggest adding in to those 15 hours meeting the top two ENs for both of you. For most men it's SF and RC and for women, it's Intimate Conversation and Affection. Adjust it to your specific situation. Playing golf is great since it's both RC and probably conversation.

And 15 hours is the minimum. Dr. Harley recommends more UA for those in crisis-type situations. Definitely in our case, we needed more than 15 hours meeting each others needs. Over time, this has really helped us.

As to your "friends" who side with OW or who won't take a stand, I think much of society is this way, sadly. Too cowardly to "rock the boat" or make anyone mad at them. We need more folks to stand up for what's right.

You will make new friends in your new location. I know moving is hard, but for you and your family, it is a much needed new beginning.

Bumped into OW this morning - first time for MONTHS - hideous. But nobody understands - they think I should be 'over it' now......argh!

I hear she is getting on with her life, off to the Monaco Grand Prix this weekend and having a pool built.....so throwing money at the problem I guess. How come her H has taken her back so willingly and she seems to have got off scott free - I don;t get it. Need to get her and everyone associated out of my wretched life. Not a good day.

I really need a new beginning - this is driving me nuts and not helping recovery to be honest.....which is what you have all been saying.....

H happy to write NC letter but I have said that this will stir things up - at a time when everything is calm I really don't want a mud slinging exercise!
Have found out that my alleged friend who is still seeing OW has had a fling before and the H doesn't know. Do I tell him? I think this would seem like revenge and isn't the right thing to do.....but now I have this knowledge I feel very uncomfortable. Or should I speak to my friend and say that I have heard this....but then I get the person who told me in to trouble. My instinct is to take this information to the grave.

Well if it was you what would you want? Would you have wanted your 'friend' to keep quiet about your husband's affair?

You can say something to her H, but without proof you'll appear to be vindictive. He already knows he's living with a cheater - he should know if she's a serial cheater, though.

Can you influence your friend to disclose this to her H? It may be received faster coming from someone other than you.

I don't think she's talking about the OW - she's talking about her friend..

I would want a friend to have told me about my husband.....

The information I have is not about OW it is about my friend who is still friendly with the OW. It is not on going and happened a while ago I think......

Oops - reading too fast without enough coffee in my system Thanks, bk.

Hello AEK1,

In the affair that my ex-brother and Mrs.Flint had my sister in law did not seem nearly as affected by it as I was...

Over time I have realized that it is because she did not lose nearly as much as I did...

My ex-brother had cheated on her, beat her, been a worthless husband and father for years and treated her horribly...

When the affair occured she had emotionally withdrawn from him years ago.

There was no longer an emotional attachement between them.

Finding out he was having an affair with his own sister in law really did not mean that much because...

She really didn't care anymore.

Mrs.Flint and I did.

The affair did not change the dynamics between them...

It did with Mrs.Flint and I.

That is why it hurt so much...

Mrs.Flint and I lost something...

She didn't.

The good news is...

You have something left to build on.

Your marriage isn't dead inside like your OW's is.

God bless.

Jim

Why do you think OW's marriage is dead. From what I hear he has forgiven her!

She has been forgiven!

AEK1,

People SAY a lot of things and toss around words like forgiveness, love etc.

My sister in law tells everyone how she has forgiven my ex-brother.

She told me in private that when she finishes nursing school and can support herself she will probably leave him.

We'll see.

I personally think she will just use him for his money and NEVER emotionally invest in him again...

Which I think is what your OW's BH is doing.

It's called EXISTING in the relationship..

NOT recovering the relationship.

I am leary of ANYONE saying they have FORGIVEN someone of such a soul destroying event so early in the recovery period.

Forgiveness takes a LOT of time and frankly of seeing that you can feel SAFE in the relationship.

A VERY LONG TIME.

Jim

That's not the same as healing, and it's definitely NOT recovery. But I wouldn't waste time worrying about her marital situation.

The karma bus always comes. Sometimes right away, sometimes later. Rest assured. It always comes.

I hope so.....I am determined to have a better day tomorrow. Sadly I saw her this afternoon too - she drove past me. She has a large "look at me' car so it is hard to miss her.

Make sure you carefully label your moving boxes, so you don't accidentally put the china in the spare bedroom. In other words, look forward. You won't have this to deal with much longer.

I also believe you reap what you sow. The Karma bus is coming for her.

Time wounds all heels (although not nearly fast enough

I also agree with Jim.

OW'sH may not be that invested in his marriage. He may also still be so hurt he's trying to move forward and claims he has forgiven her. But forgiveness in this is a long process and it depends a lot on the recovery of the marriage. He may even think he has forgiven her but talk is cheap.

Girlfriend ... you really need to make some new friends.

From the sound of it, they would most likely use it against you.

Personally, I would have H write it and let him believe that I was going to send it. Then once I had it, I would file it away with my other love letters from him. At this stage, I would view it as a gesture of love and commitment.

Its almost like getting married and not buying a ring. No it is not necessary ... but it is a symbol and a gesture that is important to me.

ITA. You don't know what's going on behind their closed doors. It may be nothing close to forgiveness or recovery. Not your problem, though

AEK1,

I can't help but wonder if maybe he has his own thing going on the side.

Now THAT would be the Karma bus.

OK enough about OW.

And maybe it is with your alleged friend !! That would explain a lot things.

Sadly this would mean that another family now gets hurt.

OK I really mean it this time. No more about the OW. We are done with her.

Def not my problem but it eats me up a little....I know it is bad but I want her to suffer. Must get over that as my H is as bad as she is and they deserve and 2nd chance too.

AEK1,

I believe that you have to EARN a second chance. It should not be an automatic given in life.

You know better than I, but it sounds like your H is doing the work he needs to earn his. And that is the big difference
here.

Help please.

H doing well and trying really hard. I feel guilty as I am still not having sex with him as much as he would like which means I'm not meeting his EN.

How do you get to a point when you are both willingly and naturally meeting each others needs? I can't just forget the A and say ok let's do it, this fed great!

I mentioned the A this morning trying to explain that although we understNd how to recover, there is a big elephant in the way.

He really is trying his best. MB has made us both open our eyes however in the back of my mind I still feel having an affair was unacceptable. Just because you are unhappy doesn't mean you get a green card to sleep with someone else..

Progress being made. Each day feels better and easier. I know there is no excuse for an affair but I can now accept it. I love him and we are better connected now that we have been in a long time. I can't bear the smug people who keep saying you must be over it by now. It's just not that easy!! Thank you MB for all your help.

Something is bugging me. When I accused OW of affair over a year ago now, I wrote to her afterwards apologising. I wrote because it had really upset her. My H was aware of this and now I just feel so used and abused. Want to get past this stuff but it's hard as they were so cruel. Is it normal to feel like this?

aek1,

let it go they make you feel crazy my hubby did that too, he actually accused me of being a jealous crazy woman ........they lie and do what they have to you are the collateral damage in this part........anything to put you off the trail........
don't beat yourself up for the cruelty, what did you do wrong? nothing.
jessi

AEK1,

Although you were aware or least suspicious over a yr ago, you did not register on MB or begin posting until May 2011.

Until that time in May when you found MB, you were limping along with no plan or idea on how to recover your M or if you even wanted to. You cannot start the clock back at a year ago ... it starts when you begin to do the things required to R. That was a short time ago.

You suffered an incomprehensible betrayal by your H and someone you believed was a friend. Your feelings are NORMAL at this stage.

To be honest with you, I am still haunted by this from time to time (2+yrs). But it happens less over time. As you rebuild the love, the anger starts to go away. Things start to fall into place (that includes the sex part).

What is he doing to make you feel safe? This was crucial to me.

Have you considered the online program?

Not such a great night.
So much to deal with. Loss of job got to me tonight. Feel I put so much in to the school and now wonder why I bothered.

He is reassuring me about us and our future but I am anxious about his new job. Our kids will go there and it isn't such a good school. I find it hard not to interfere which is what began the problems before. I don't seem to know when to hold my Tongue.

Why would you think that it was all for nothing? You are passing the improved school forward to others. Be proud of your efforts there.

Have you read the policy of joint agreement (POJA)? It is one of the principles here that is instrumental in a healthy relationship.

Yes we have read it and agree with it - sometimes it is too easy to break the rules....

Better day. When I don't think if the A it is Breyer; it's just training myself to not think about it. No sittings of OW for a while. Kids invited to same parties which is tough.

Doing better here. H really trying hard. Things clearer. You were so right about nc and moving away. Only way to recover.

glad to hear it, keep it up.....

Well only a few weeks til kids quit school which is great.... It has been very tough and extremely hard for me. I believe I can start to repair and recover once I am out of that school and moved away.

Things are getter much better. We are more patient, listen better and are understanding of each others needs. We wish we hard found marriage builders a long time ago.... It would have saved us.

I wish I had found MB a long time ago also... but I am here now. One of the hardest things is to not let yourself get too comfortable and slip back to old habits.

That's why I keep reading here.

Glad to hear things are going so well!

Yes I can see how hard it is to break habits as well as stick to them.
My WH wants sex 3 times a week; I think that's quite a lot but I am scared about what will happen if I don't meet these needs.

AEK1,

Three times per week for SF is not a surprise. Quite often, some hysterical bonding takes place for a period of time during the recovery from infidelity. A couple may make love many times per week, even a couple of times per day at times, as an instinctive way to reconnect and form an emotional bond with each other.

However, even if three times per week is your H's normal, look at it as a great opportunity for you to deposit love units in your husband's love bank. And it's pretty nice for you, too. The more I meet my H's need for SF, the more affectionate he is with me. It's a way to rebuild your romantic love for each other. Take joy in it.

POJA honey, if thats too much for you then offer what you think you can manage, besides there are other ways, a HJ, a massage, a sexy striptease....be creative but POJA!

O&H too, talk to him, explain how you feel. He has a responsibility too.

Hugs

I should have asked....is SF mutually satisfying? We've been married a long while, and I had to learn what it took for my husband to please me. Then I had to share that information with him. We experiment, play, and enjoy. If I did not enjoy SF with my H, hmmm....well, we'd have to work on that, for sure. And perhaps it's something you two might consider.

Tanam has some great ideas to include in SF.

My WW and the OM finally had a nasty "break-up" after 6 months of hell. They did break it off once, but it was done "gently" so the OM could work on his marriage. Then 2 months later after the OM had struggles with his marriage, he gave up and met up with my WW again. She told me she just had to see if it would work out. The next day he bailed and left to go be with his wife again (she wants nothing to do with him now). My wife hit rock bottom but is now trying to be nice to me. She said she still needs to work on herself because she's too stressed and depressed with the affair, loss of friends, and losing her job. She's leaving to see her cousin for 3 weeks ( I confirmed this). But I'm still not confident she's over the OM. How will I know?

Still, please post this on your own thread so AEK's doesn't get t/j'ed.

Have you always felt this way or is it something you are struggling with post A?

I felt this way too when I first found out how much SF my H needs, But once I started being open and honest about the kind of SF I like (and my H started doing those things) I started wanting it even more than him.

This is a time to have fun and be creative with each other. Don't be afraid to tell him what you really like, no matter how kinky or weird or boring it may seem. You may be surprised how much you can enjoy it.

and besides he should be doing all the things to satisfy YOU, not him, after all, ladies first hunny!!

Make sure you talk about what you like, find out what he likes, it may be quite a surprise to him that you actually want to talk about it, especially if it's never been very high on the agenda.

Have a bath/shower together, all that slippy soap........

It's also important that he waits till you are 'ready'..... bit of lube is invaluable too!!

How come nobody is replying? Where have you all gone? Things are so my h better....

3 Times a week used to be a dream to me. However, part of that was driven by the fact that SF was one of the few needs I could depend on being met... However, the S was occurring without the F.

Why? Because FWW did not recognize it as an EN (her words). It was compartmentalized.

Early in recovery, I did a lot of searching for ways to build more intimacy in SF. Though I had seen it performed and read the book, I ended up watching The Vagina Monologues again. Particularly, "Because he liked to look at it."

The segment is on Youtube. That was my guide for one night, one moment which allowed, for once, my wife to see herself through my eyes. Since then, the F is fully present in SF, and it's not me keeping 3+ times a week going. In fact, I'm so satisfied with how things are, she reminds me if we go more than 2 days without; "There WILL be SF tonight!"

Just food for thought.

AEK1,

I hope that didn't sound sarcastic or insincere...but it was an honest question. Are mind games of the A holding you back? Is there something H is or is not doing that is holding you back? Are you feeling safe?

This is an important part of bonding with your H.

For me personally, just having DH do nice affectionate things like waiting for me to catch up so that he can hold my hand is a huge turn on.

What do you think is missing in your situation?

Nothing missing but I just don't need sex 3 times a week... Is there something wrong with me?
He is trying really hard which is great. The A still bothers me. I get flashbacks although I know he is committed. I just don't want sex 3 times a week but this is his need. I am worried that if I don't meet this need I will loose him.

I want to make love but then i think how bad he has been to me, how much he has lied and how he slept with my best friend... It's a bit of a turn off.... How do I keep focused forward? When will I feel more sexy? When we have sex it's good; I just don't want it as often as him?

Is he being affectionate towards you? You may need more affection from him in order to feel more sexual. Tell him what you need or would like to try.

The Memories of the A will continue for a long time. try to refocus your thoughts on something else when they pop into your mind. I usually picture a stop sign and then try to think of a good recent memory of my H.

Hi AEK1!!

I think 3 times a week is pretty much par for the course for a man. He should be making sure it is enjoyable for you as well. If he is meeting your needs, 3 times a week won't seem such a big deal. When you are in love it's natural. The goal of MB is for you to build romantic love in your marriage. As you do this, the bad memories fade and meeting needs is easier.

But you must remember this takes a lot of time - your feelings right now are to be expected.

Have you considered the online program to help you both rebuild romantic love?

AEK1 if you don't keep posting, don't be asking why no one is giving you any attention OK!

Have considered flying to US as well as on line programme. Things are heading in the right direction. Your advice and help has bee
Invaluable. Count down til end of school year. Thank god.

How did the Polygraph go?

All clear.... Wouldn't still be with him otherwise.
The OW is still creeping in to my thoughts. I hate that.

AEK, the online programme replaced the "flying to US" programme.

I would have flown there too, but the face-to-face weekend seminar has been discontinued and replaced with online video presentations.

Hey.....who out there has tried the on line programme? I am hooked to MB and therefore would give it a try if overseas people had tried it and it had been successful.

I'm in London, and we've just started it. We are only viewing the video presentations so far. After that comes the workbooks and exercises set by your coach.

It surely does not make any difference if you are overseas. Everybody does the programme online these days. There is no "overseas" online!

Is it helping? Are you in a better place? I love my H but we still haven't resumed a full sex life... That worries me.

AEK1 you need to breathe a little. It will take years to be fully recovered. Years not a few weeks/months. Your expectations need adjustment a little

My wife and I did do the home st,udy course which is effectively the online study course without the accountability program. It's great.

I think, AEK, that bigkahuna did the same course that I am doing, but without the seminar presentations (watched online) - is that right, bk? And without having a personal coach who sets the tasks and gives feedback on your progress. The coach is the "accountability" part of the programme. With the online course, you can also post questions to Dr Harley in his private forum. We haven't got that far yet.

Yes, it is helping. Would you agree with me, AEK, that we in Britain are not keen on "therapy"? While I think it is getting more popular for depression and abuse of various kinds, I would say that people here still do not seek help with their marriage problems most of the time.

My H was always reluctant about marriage counselling. He was very pleased for me to see an IC when he was entrenched in his affair, but when I suggested we both go, he was dragged his feet until it was clear that he was never going to agree. This was just as well when I was offering traditional marriage counselling, which as you probably know does not have a good record in Britain. People are often counselled to follow their hearts, which means they leave their marriages if that is how they feel.

However, he was just as scathing when I told him about MB, although I think this had a lot to do with the fact that there was still intermittent contact between him and OW. He was still in the affair fog.

When I found out just a couple of months ago that intermittent contact had continued for 4 years since exposure (va his workplace, which I could not monitor), I issued an ultimatum about MB. I would not consider reconciliation unless he first, spoke to a Harley coach by phone, and then signed up for the course.

A combination of factors have led to our dramatic improvement since April. Talking to a Harley was one. Another significant factor was my husband's retiring 3 weeks later, and his not being able to contact OW woman from home. Full exposure to our kids and H's family was one of the best things I could ever have done, and was long overdue. Re-exposure to OWH also seemed to help. My H's reading HNHN and some of LB also opened his eyes to the strength of Dr Harley's model, and finally, the online presentations are very compelling.

We have easily met the 20 hours UA time each week, as my H is retired, I work from home most of the time and we only have one child, aged 15, at home. We have had no trouble making the 20 hours pleasant and intimate.

However, AEK, you are not yet in my position, and wont be a for a long time. I have worked through a lot of resentment over the past 6 years and let it go. It helped that the contact has been phone calls every six months or so; it would have been much harder to recover from physical contact, although that was imminent. (I intercepted an email where they planned to meet for the first time in 5 years.) My posting here has given me confidence and knowledge so that I am nothing like as destroyed as I was 6 years ago when I realised how far and deep the affair had gone.

I am able to give a lot to this, my last attempt at recovery, because I no longer have the justified resentment that you have, but it has taken me many years to get here, and several D Days that I would not wish on anybody.

You cannot hurry this process, but you can do your best to meet your H's ENs. If you can create feelings of love in him (so that he falls back in love with you), he will gladly and vigorously meet your ENs, so that you begin to fall back in love with him. For now, focus on spending 20+ hours of enjoyable UA time per week and avoiding lovebusters. And do the online course! It will motivate your husband and you will see an improvement in his efforts to try and make you happy.

He is making SO much effort...He has read LB and HNHN's - he thought they were fantastic and has recommended them to other friends who are in happy marriages. He really is trying and believe him - it is not fake. there has been NC now for 7 months. I know that now and I trust him. He is meeting my needs but I am worried that I am not responding enough for him. I still see her occasionally and this sets me back but the kids finish school soon and then NC with me will be a reality. At times I feel like calling her - to remind her what a cow she is and how she nearly ruined my kids lives - is it normal to feel like this? Her life has hardly changed - in fact I hear she has just had a swimming pool put in. Life is tough when you are a rich *itch. There is a lot of change in our life right now - may the residual anger will east once these changes are made and our future more certain....school move, house move, jobs move.....
I like the sound of the on-line course. I have mentioned it to my H and he seems happy that we are on the right track but if it can help more, then I would like to do it. I want a long lasting and happy marriage.

Struggling today to get OW out of my mind. My H has suffered through job loss etc, her H has suffered through betrayal but she hasn't suffered at all. I don;t want revenge but I do want justice.

Wait for the Karma bus hun, it will come.

In the meantime try seeing your feelings about her as energy....is she really worth all that energy that you could use better elsewhere.

I know exactly how you feel, felt that way for a long long time, I lost everything, she lost nothing and gained too (last time I saw her she had also gained lots of weight, that was refreshing) but ultimately she lost out big time. After exposure (final) when I told her BH everything, he walked, she is left with nothing and a ruined reputation too.........and I didn't have a hand to play in that.

Justice will come. In the meantime, focus on you, do stuff you used to do or take up a new challenge, maybe something you and H can do togther.

Just don't waste any more energy on her. She is not worth it. Invest that energy in your future.

Tips that worked for me:

Smile .... it does something to your brain chemistry
Find something every day to say thank you for
Do excersize
Get a massage.........something about being stroked and rubbed does good things in your brain too.
Sing......the louder the better, in the car so no one can hear you
Journal but as well as journalling the bad stuff find 3 good things every day to write

Hang on, breathe, eat well and get some sleep

Hugs

Thank you so much for your advice. One thing I am finding so hard is still seeing my friend who is still seeing ow. We were all best friends. Cant really understand why she still is friendly with her although she says she is being fair to both couples. Doesn't want to choose. Says she is supporting owh. It hurts but I don't want to let her go as she is lovely.

Hmm AEK1 - Pretty sure we have covered all this before with your friend and consequences for OW haven't we?????

Sugarcane is right abut the course we did.

She is still friendly with her because the OW did not try to steal HER husband...

Human nature is that we respond either favorably or unfavorably to someone based on how that person treats US...

It used to drive me INSANE that some family and friends did not see my ex-brother the way I did for what he had done to me and my family...

The reason, of course, is because he did not do that to THEIR families so they do not see him for what he truly is...

and there is the decision point for you...

Does the friend who supports the OW's BH bring more joy or does she bring more pain into your life?

I have pretty much lost my own father because of his outspoken support of my ex-brother (who he just helped pay a trip for him and his wife to Germany) causes me more pain than joy to see...

It's a hard decison and the only one who can make it is you.

God bless.

Jim

Yes we have covered this off and I have failed. I have not cut contact with my friend who is now going on holiday with OW and OWH.....because she is a friend and I a scared about loosing her. She says she is being fair to both couples....giving them both a chance...which I can see. I know I know....I need to turn my back on my friend as it hurts SO much.

It's really not so much turning your back on your friend, it's more about choosing to move on from the hurty stuff.

While you still see her, you are likely to be triggered all over again........and again.............and again.

Sometimes you need to back off in order to heal.

join something, make some new friends, I know thats not easy but it's a better way as you will also find yourself fishing for information about OW...the way I understand MB is that NC means NC...........for both of you.

Let it go hun, focus on the important stuff, you and Mr AEK!!!

Why would you want to be a friend to someone who is not acting friendly towards you? You know what they say about the friends you have being a reflection on you? I no longer have any communication with people that I KNOW to be wayward. If they are FWS's and have done what was necessary to earn that F, then I communicate, otherwise, CRICKETS. And there is a man, whom I went to HS with, who is FB friends with OW. I unfriended him.

You would be doing this to help you recover. I think that's worth more than any friendship.

No you haven't failed at all. Just remember a definition of insanity is doing the same things and expecting a different result.

It's like the patient who goes in to see the doctor and says "it hurts when I do this" and the dr says "don't do this" and the patient says but I like it....

Just don't expect the solution to change OK??

Oh and Scotty reminded me - the BF is or was actually an OW correct? Why do you expect more of such?

Lower your expectations of people and raise your expectations of God.

I will lower my expectations.....hard seeing an old friend being friendly with OW who has been so destructive in my life. She is trying to treat us fairly but I cannot handle that so I am out. OUT. OVER. NEW FRIENDS and NEW HOBBIES.

AEK1,

I know you have heard this a million times before.. but really you can't control how other people live their lives.

You can only control yourself and who you surround yourself with. Choose your friends wisely.

Get rid of those last triggers in your life. You have come a long way!

Thank you. It looks as though your h also had an affair with your best friend... How have you coped.

Being sweet is next to impossible when you are feeling so angry and betrayed. The fact that he tells you he's missing her in any way is not acceptable. I do agree, however, that you can't keep bashing her to him. It's no different with kids...right? They want what they can't/shouldn't have.

I'm guilty of doing the same thing, but the difference is my WH realizes what a loser she is. I'm still obsessed...I googled her again and wouldn't you know there is some justice, and it wasn't mine? She was arrested for a DUI the other day. Beautiful! Unfortunately, she was released the same day, but still, it felt good to see what comes around goes around. That alone pulled me out of my funk a bit.

Invest the time. When we are good, it's because we spend the time together, focusing on each other, without kids and the day to day nonsense. That 15+ hours a week is sooooo important at rebuilding...

Still don't know the shorthand--

OW was not really my best friend but she was someone who I believed was my friend. Our families spent a lot of time together (almost every day) and our kids were best friends. I feel like she used my kids to get in with my DH and he let her.

He let her come into my home and stand by his side while they both looked me in the eye and deceived me. They gas lighted me big time! I knew in my gut something didn't seem right but they were so good at the deception. I started to believe myself that I was just a crazy jealous wife.

How have I coped? Still trying to get past how someone can present themselves as your friend while knowingly stabbing you in the back and destroying your family (and that's what my DH was also doing to OW husband).

What kind of person does that? It still haunts me and it has been almost 3 years.

Despite that... DH and I are in a good place now. We try to follow the MB principles here and so far it is working well. I don't want my kids to come from a broken home...so I am hanging in there and doing my best to have a strong M.

Moving was the best thing we did. AEK1, get rid of those triggers that you can control. Get out of OW circle. That was your old life. Time to make a new life with new memories.

It gets better ... it takes time... a lot of time.

Best.

He does not miss her anymore. He thinks she is a loser thank goodness.

Gosh it sounds so similar me....

Sorry to T/J but thanks pokerface............my situation also similar, ex closest friend just friends, PA etc etc and went on for a lonf time.

It helps just knowing someone else has walked this path too.

Maybe we can start a special club, women betrayed by women!!

My WH does still have strong feelings for Ginge but does also accept that she was poison to our marriage, which in turn allows him to still feel entitled and poor me.

Still we are both working at it!

How do you cope with him still having feelings??

Hi AEK, sorry for the delay.

I have been thinking about that question all morning.

The best I can come up with is that I cope by thinking of it as a relationship, which clearly as it lasted 6 years, it was, it's not like it was a ONS!!

That relationship is now over to all intents and purposes. I am 99% sure there is no contact.

I have people in my life who I don't have a relationship with any more, but it doesn't stop me thinking fondly of them or remembering good times we had as well as bad times.

I have friends who have died who I still care for.

Yes I know that Ginge was different but the quality of the relationship, was what it was. Me not liking it, doesn't change it.

So he has times when he misses her, when it's her birthday, when it's Xmas and he used to take them both to a show, when it's her daughters birthday and he cant even send a card. For me it would make him less human if he didn't feel like that at times.

So I call on my generosity of spirit, acknowledge that he is a good guy under all the other stuff, hug him and say he can talk to me if he wants.

I guess it's about changing what you can, accepting what you can't and developing the smarts to tell the difference!!

Yes I get angry at times, yes I get down and lost and the rollercoaster is a challenge, but I do love him, love my life and there are all sorts of things I don't like but can't change, it doesn't mean it's a reason to beat myself up or him.

Some things just are. Fighting them is a bit of a waste of energy so I practice noticing it and letting it go , a bit like I do withthe triggers. I also remember that she was my friend too for a long time, we worked together, and I remember what I liked about her, how much fun she was and that helps me understand better without the filter of the affair.

Hope that kinda helps

Blessings

Tanam,

That's why it is so hard to comprehend... because DH is a good guy and always was. I understand the boundary and EN thing but what about the moral compass thing?

I try not to think about that because I don't think I will ever get it.

Thanks for that Tanam.

Yes I think for a long time my overriding sadness was the hardest thing. I really have really never been angry, just sad that these two people who I cared for who, I thought cared for me, could behave in such a way.

She even described it to me once as an addiction.

Just that moral compass thing, neither set out to hurt me, that was a by product.

If you were so close to her, don't you miss her too?

yes honey, I did for a long time, but over the years.....she just got nastier and nastier. So now.....no but I do remember some of the fun we had and some of the good work we did together.

But it's gone now and so has much of the bitterness.

Thats the real problem when the affair is so close to home.....so many ripples in the pond, other stuff gets lost too.

The double betrayal is hard.

But you find you and you get strong hun, keep posting, I follow!!

Blessings

The ripples are enormous. Friends who have chosen sides, reduced social life, moving school and job.... The list goes on and on. I miss her sometimes and winder what she is doing but then I have to remind myself what she dud and how she did it. Then I think well my h did that too; why forgive him such behaviour???? Surely he is lying evil man who has ruined our life.

Yes, gradually you will begin to blame your H more for it all which is only right. Forgiveness is very much linked to 'just compensation' when you are in love with him again the pain will fade and you won't always feel like this. But it takes plenty of time.

AEK!,

I understand how your are feeling. I have been there ...for a few years.

Yes, H was a lying evil man... but he is not like that now. He has changed, been remorseful, and taken the steps to protect his M and family.

The OW has NOT done this. That is the difference.

Just compensation.

Hang in there.

AEK,

Yes I know, they managed to destroy so much with their sordid little affairs.

More than just you hurt, in my case there is a 7 year old little girl who my WH adored and who adored him. He can't even send her a birthday card, it upsets him, me and I am sure she doesn't understand why Monkey has not even sent a card to her. (Monkey was her name for him)

Yes he was a spineless wimp, not sure I ever saw him as evil, just selfish and spineless.

She on the other hand set out to get my life. She nearly got it, but he decided he knew where his bread was buttered and eventually kicked her to the curb.

Currently, he's trying very hard, still areas he needs to work on, still areas I need to work on, I don't feel in love with him, but I do love him. Other stuff will come.

One of my saddest things was loosing her as a friend, but really, do I need friends that badly that I would want someone who could do that to me to be a friend?

It was when I realised I didn't need to be married that badly either that things round here really started to change.

Then he realised that she was more trouble than she was worth.

Like BK said, it takes time, lots of time and patience and looking after you and making sure your side of the fence is clean. Look at the stuff that went wrong before skanky, fix your stuff.

Breathe and love yourself, listen to the vets, other things will follow.

Blessings

Tanam and AEK,

I have been following this board for a long time and I have just now seen your stories. I feel like I am reading my own. My BFF at the time my marriage fell apart about a year ago has now become the OW. I am so hurt and betrayed by both of them and I am not sure how to let the pain go. I have recently decided to start fighting dirty, since she has been, and reclaim my marriage and my H. I know that they are still sleeping together and according to him, he is only using her for sex and he needs some time to get it out of his system before he can move forward with me. Exposure does no good as everyone already knows and we are separated with divorce paperwork having been filed. Please tell me that I am doing the right thing. I am so tired of having her be an issue and I don't want to hold onto the hate and anger anymore. How do you do it???

Hi Raindancer

It's funny isn't it, when I arrived here I kept being told that all WS were the same, and A's were the same and mine didn't feel like others but.....hang around a while and you will find that there are others with similar stories.

How do I do it:

1. I got myself strong

2. I got myself to a point where I didn't need to be married that badly

3. I decided that I wasn't going to put any more energy into her, and I had for years, all that brooding and hurt. I decided that energy could be better spent.

4. I used a number of techniques, some ritual burning of photos and bits she had given me, I wrote a letter telling her exactly what I thought of her, really let rip, very nasty stuff and then burned that too and sent the ashes off in a local river.

I use visualisation, so every time I flushed the toilet or emptied dirty water down the drain I saw her stupid face.

I also began to understand how destructive to my H she was and saw him in a place he was too weak willed and spineless to get out of.

I did similar to you, not as far as divorce papers but did say I was off. That woke him up!!

It's a long process but I worked on me to get to a point where whatever happens, I will be fine. My boundaries are rock solid and any contact he initiates.....I go.

Get good things in your life, get powerful, wake up the wild woman in you.

My H is trying in his own way, but I know I am a goddess and he is the luckiest man alive.

I don't waste energy on her
I don't waste energy on her

repeat as necessary!!

(My thread is over in Recovery)

Why thank you Pep!!

That means a lot from a vet!!!

Thanks for the reply, Tanam! Thanks for the advice, especially the visualization. That's awesome! I have just this weekend decided that my best plan is an amazing Plan A until October, which is our wedding anniversary, and if things remain as they are move onto Plan B.

We just went on a date this past Saturday and had a great time and he spent the night at the house with me in our bed. It was the first time in almost a year that we felt close again.

He is planning on spending the night with her this coming Friday and I know about it. It kills me, but I am being strong about it and I keep telling myself that she is irrelevant. I am being nice (Plan A). I am going to send some beer to his room (that I know will impede his performace, lol) with a note signed "Love, your wife!" My plan is to make her so uncomfortable and angry that she doesn't want to deal with it anymore! Who knows if it will work, but I know that I'm not letting her have him without a fight!!!

As for your H, he sounds much like mine! Men can be so dumb sometimes! Don't they know that we are amazing????

October is much, much, much too long. As many months as this has already been going on, I think you should wrap this up by the end of July.

Your mental health is more important than a marathon Plan A to make a certain goal. Make it good, and get it done. Plan B awaits you.

Oh hun you will go mad, thats too long for you to deal with him sleeping with both of you.

At least we had the pretence that he wasn't sleeping with her. It was never openly admitted till Dec when the world blew up here.

Then it was my way or the highway.

If you can hold it together this weekend, write the plan B letter, change the locks and go dark.

There are others who will go through the details with you. I don't do that kind of help, leave it to the vets.

There is no way I could have done that, respect lady.

Thoughts are with you and I send you good energy.

Oh my I cannot believe how many people seem to have such similar stories. I also cannot believe how many best friends are involved. It's sick.

No doll, it's not sick, it's actually very understandable if you think about it.

You choose a partner you love for a million reasons, you choose friends you care for for a million reasons,

of course they are going to have points of connection. If it's your BF then they will likely see a lot of each other.

It's poor boundaries that make the rest happen. A lack of respect for you and for themselves.

Opportunity + time + justification = affair.

Stop beating yourself up, it's not your fault hun, it is however an opportunity for you to learn.

Read lots here and in terms of healing yourself, have a look at anything by Deepak Chopra. He made a difference to me and the way I saw things.

Remember, you can only change you. You can't change him. But maybe when you change and get to access the powerful woman inside......he will have to run to keep up.

I am a goddess and he is lucky to have me in his life ....... make it your mantra.

Stick it on a mirror and read it every morning.

Be good to yourself and listen to the vets!

Thinkin of you today

Thanks for the advice. I have decided that Friday is it. If he can't fully commit to saving our marriage after Friday, I am done and I will proceed to Plan B.

I am cautiously optimistic at this point, but I will not let him continue to disrespect me. I am also requesting a sit down with the three of us to settle once and for all that she is nothing more than the OW to him and that she is NEVER to contact him again and vice versa.

It is my time to be strong!! Also, is there a schedule somewhere for the MB weekends?? I want to make that a requirement for me to stay as well.

You ladies are amazing!!!

OK well done Dancer.

Now instead of keep T/Jing AEK's thread, do you have one of your own??

If you do plan to sit down with WH and OW then can I suggest that you have someone there for you. Otherwise you risk it being 2 against one. Even up those odds.

Otherwise you may run into nightmare territory when you have to manage them telling you how much they lurve each other while you vomit into the sink.

(err yes that was one of my nightmares.....bad memory that one)

He needs to commit or walk away and then a Plan B from you.

I think the MB weekends are now online, Mel is the best source of info for that one.

And yes the women are amazonians here. No one should disrespect us............ever!!

I will let the vets chime in here, as I havent done NC myself. But I think sitting down with her is a bad idea (did I understand right that's what you meant?)

Goes against the message of no contact, to sit down and have contact with her - its almost like letting them say 'farewell'. It sort of gives the affair - sorry adultery - the status of a relationship. As I understand it no contact has to be more swift and brutal. He has to agree to send her a no contact letter, one he writes saying he no longer wants to have anything to do with her. You must approve the wording and I think you also ensure it is delivered to her. Vets will advise you on the content etc,

If he refuses NC go into Plan B. Stay in Plan B until he tells your IM he will do NC

Dr Harley has written about the no contact letter think its called 'how the affair should end' - have a look while people take their time replying here....

It's not just a bad idea, it's a CATASTROPHICALLY bad idea!!!!!!!!

No sit-downs. No farewells. Just NC or nothing.

Thanks and Sorry about the T/J!

I do have my own thread but I can't remember what it is called.

Dont worry about using my thread.... I am interested and learning all the time. I would say a 3 way meeting would be hideous NC all the way...

I have become friendly with a friends husband. He has helped me through a tough time at school. I admire him but love him as a friend. However he wife us getting little tetchy about our friendship. Never want to offend her as I would never do what has been done to me. Never. Should I cut contact with this guy? I think so.

think you answered your own question honey!

Heading towards dirty waters there, keep your side of the road clean.

"Love him as a friend"? You should not be capable of saying this!

This closeness should never have happened. As a married woman, you should have barriers that prevent friendships with men from ever developing. Workplace friendships are a very common route to affairs.

I am upset for that wife. She should never have been put in a position where she is bothered by another woman's friendship with her H. You and I know what a horrible feeling it is to realise that our Hs have a relationship with a woman that is private to them.

Even if you were a single woman you should not have done that to a married woman. As you are married yourself, you also should have had higher standards for yourself.

What did your friendship consist of? Did you go for coffee or lunch alone with him? Did you talk to him alone about your work issues? Did you email or text him privately?

I am glad you brought this up here. Please don't be put off being honest by my comments. I am trying to get you to see that even though this relationship was probably a long way from an affair, it was very wrong.

SEk, please read the first post from this thread: Anatomy of an affair: how it starts . You will see that it is actually a very short step, for married people, from a friendship over a common interest with a member of the opposite sex, to an affair.

Many people on this site have had affairs in their marriages that started with a friendship at work, at a leisure activity such as a book club or at church.

Don't do this. Don't start such friendships. It is very difficult for a married person to see the boundary between a friendship and an EA until well after she has crossed it. After that it is easier to adjust the morality than to change the behaviour.

We tend to think that because we are married we would never do such a thing as have an EA - silly! And because the other person is married, this doubly applies. If we have been victims of an affair, this triply applies; we would NEVER get caught up in one ourselves because we have personally experienced the pain that an affair causes. Therefore we are safe to have friendships with members of the opposite sex.

That rationalisation is the first big mistake. If anything, BSs are more at risk from friendships, not less. We are VERY needy and susceptible, because our needs have not been met in our marriages, we have been dealt the biggest love buster possible by the affair, and our still wayward spouses are not stepping up to the mark of filling the gaping hole caused by unmet needs.

AEK1,

Wow. You are the last person I would expect to hear this from. You know first hand the pain and devastation it causes to have a third person in your marriage. Whilst, I believe that you are not someone who would do this to another ... you have.

Your post sounds like you and your friend's husband have discussed your friends displeasure over your relationship. Good grief, AEK1.

I think it illustrates just how important those boundaries really are and just how easy it is to cross them when we let someone else meet our ENs.

What is missing in your recovery. Talk to us.

Absolutely. You are allowing a married man to meet your needs and you are meeting his. Neither one of you have appropriate boundaries. This is how affairs begin. As Dr Harley states, as soon as one need is met outside of marriage, the others are soon to follow. If you care about this person at all, you will end all contact with him before you fall in love with each other and wreck his marriage.

Indeed, as this is Dr Harley's site, I should do him the courtesy of using his own example.

"Next morning as Alex caught the 7:30 commuter train he greeted Harriet and Fred, who also worked for his firm. As Alex opened his morning paper he remembered his empty noon schedule. "Hey, you two," he called out. "My lunch partner's out of town today. Either of you free?"

"Sorry," Fred told him. "I have to be across town." Alex looked at Harriet, a tall, willowy woman, studious and plain. "I'd love to go to lunch with you," she answered brightly.

I haven't seen her in a while, Alex thought. Harriet had gone to his high school, and they'd lost track of each other for a few years, until they started working for the same company. Their friendship rekindled several months before, when they began working on the same team, installing a new computer system. Once they'd completed that, though, Alex's responsibilities took him to the fifth floor, while she stayed on the seventh.

"You know," Alex told her that day at lunch, "I'm kind of glad Charlie had to go out of town today."

"Me, too," she agreed, smiling. "I've missed you since you went downstairs. We should have done this sooner."

"Yeah. Working on that project was the most fun I've had in a long time."

"The system's really proving itself, too. Float time on orders has been reduced to almost nothing."

"That doesn't surprise me." Alex chuckled. "Why, with you and me on that job, it couldn't fail."

As they left Alex and Harriet made plans to meet again next week. Soon the midweek luncheon had become a regular part of their schedules. Once Harriet gave Alex a book on computer programming, and a few weeks later he responded with a modest but lovely bracelet. As he gave it to her at lunch her face lit up. Leaning over the table, she kissed him gently on the cheek.

"Harriet, I have to be honest," he told her awkwardly. "I'm getting awfully attached to you. It's . . . well, it's more than friendship."

"Alex," she responded, her voice low, "I feel that way, too."

"I've never told you how I feel about Elaine. . . ."

"And you never need to," she reassured him.

"But I want to. I've never been able to talk to anyone about it before. I'd like to now."

"Then go ahead. It's okay."

"When I married her, I didn't realize what I was letting myself in for. I thought we shared a lot of interests, would spend a lot of time together, but all that dried up within a year or so. Now she does her thing, and I do mine. She doesn't like me to talk to her about work, and she complains I don't earn enough money. Half the time, when I get home at night, its like walking into a madhouse. . . ."

Harriet listened in sympathetic silence; afterwards he stopped in at her place, "to talk."

The next morning, when Alex awakened in Harriet's bed, he thought how pretty she looked. He kissed her bare shoulder and smiled as she opened her eyes. "Hi, handsome," she whispered.

"Hello, beautiful.""

How to Survive an Affair

Dear sweet Lord AEK what the h#ll were you thinking?

Of course this male "friend's" wife is upset. Her antannae are up and she senses something wrong because WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS WRONG. That is how just about every dang affair starts.

You "love" him as a friend? Um..the use of the world love is a bit precarious to me imho. You are clandestinely meeting this "friend" and he is confiding in you and you in him, he is MEETING SOME EN'S in you and that is definitely WRONG.

Look, I have guy friends too. But they ALL KNOW MY DH AND HE KNOWS THEM AND HAS NO PROBLEM. There is also no secrets at all. And I keep good boundaries. No personal talkey talkey really. If their wives know me, they like and trust me. If I am friends with a guy, then I am FRIENDS WITH HIS WIFE TOO.

If he's having lunches w/you, long talks, it is definitely headed in the direction of affairsville. If you secretly long to talk to him about "something" at the end of the day it's headed to affairsville. If you just find yourself wanting to hear his voice or talk out some problem, then it's headed to affairsville. If you find yourself being "judgemental" or even the teeniest bit nasty about his wife finding displeasure in you being around her husband, then Houston, YOU have a problem.

You are skating on thin ice.

APOLOGIZE to his wife, and stop this insanity at once. YOU know what it feels like to be betrayed right? It totally sucks. Don't make her hurt too. And don't fall into the fog of a revenge affair. NO amount of pain is worth hurting somebody else. And you only have your good name and reputation in life, so don't screw it up.

His wife has EVERY REASON to be wary of you. Unless she is a mutual friend and is INVITED ALONG to the lunches or she is already a friend, then of course she has good reason.

I'm gonna be honest here. If you tried this with my dh, I'd do more than be "techy" (your word). I'd be knocking on YOUR door and having a serious talk with you. YOu wouldn't like it either.

If you even care only about yourself, you will go NC at once. If you care at all about him, you've gone NC already.

Brava for having the courage to bring this here.

I agree, shows you can be honest with yourself

I'm not surprised his wife is getting tetchy - she rightly sees you as a thread. End the friendship AEK1 and apologise immediately!!

His wife has not mentioned anything to me; I just feel it is not right and wouldn't like it if it were my husband. I have gone no contact. Def wouldn't ruin someone else's life.

Smart girl. Bullet dodged. Well done.

Struggling today. Met up with friend who saw OW in early days. She told me that OW was saying that it was me that was always arranging things for our families to do, that I was always nasty to her and that it was me always speaking work with her husband; she said this drover her and my H together. What utter rubbish. Why does she lie? She is still trying to discredit me and shift some of the blame. The sadness is I don't know who she has said this to and I have no idea who believes her. It made me angry which meant I took it out on my husband. It made me want revenge. I made me wonder what I could do to discredit her. Now I had to rebuild with my H as we have taken several steps back. He is trying so hard, really he is. But I lost it and I am not doing well at meeting his needs. It's not that I dont want it to work but it's hard so hard to get what he did out of my head. Does he deserve me? He ruined my life. Destroyed everything. May be I would be better alone?

Geez, what kind of friend repeats mindless stupid drivel of any sort back to someone? Much less the garbage spoken from the mouth of a scorned skanky woman? Didn't your friend remember her lessons from childhood cartoons? For example: if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all!

If someone starts to say something to you about the woman who helped your H almost destroy your life, put your hand up and stop them immediately. Say that you don't want to hear anything about her. Eventually people will get the point.

Don't try and discredit her. That will just make you look bad. If you have "friends" who still think well of her in spite of her adultery with your husband, they aren't friends, and who the bl**dy h7ll cares about them.

Weren't you and your family going to be moving away?

We haved moved away from the school and we will eventually move but it's not practical right now. I know you are all right though. We have been invited to old friends tomorrow who are still friends with ow and her h. Dreading it but see it as a closure BBQ. There will be no contact after that.

I advise your family not to go. You don't need closure with people who are friends of adultery; you need NC.

As friends of adultery, they will take no care to help your husband avoid triggers, mention of OW, etc. It's not a risk I would be willing to take.

AEK1,

These questions are all normal. The triggers are certainly NOT helping you to get over this hurdle.

I honestly did not stop asking myself this until fairly recently. I think reading the other threads here has helped me to put things in perspective. I think I am lucky DH became willing to face his issues and do the work to redeem himself and to protect his family from further harm. I think I now feel safer with DH than I would with someone brand new. Who knows what that would bring?

Why do you keep the "friends" who do not make you feel good. Really, would a true friend keep twisting that knife in your back? Why tell you that?

I think you will come away from that BBQ feeling much like you are feeling now after seeing that other "friend". Maybe this will finally drive the nail home and get you to realize how toxic these relationships are to you.

Surround yourself with people that make you feel good.

Wow, did I really just say that? I love MB. I don't think I could have gotten to this point without finding this place.

Aek1, learn to turn TOWARD your H when you start to have the down moments. Let him fill your need.

AEK1,


Like Pokerface, I asked the same questions hundreds of times too.

No my WH doesn't deserve me, what he did was appalling, 5 years telling me they were just friends, lying and cheating, creating a mess of unbelievable proportions.

So no he doesn't deserve me, he is very lucky he isn't living with Ginge and her own particular madness.

And he knows it, he doesn't say much but he knows.

He didn't destroy my life, I wouldn't allow that but he did radically change it. I don't think I would be anything like the woman I am today without the kick in the pants it gave me.

I would be fine on my own and my boundaries are rock solid any contact he makes then I go, and I know I will be fine.

But.....

I also know that we can be good, are often good and getting better and better.

So I stay, I decided not to make a decision for 12 months.

Give it some time, cut both of you some slack, use your UA time to create some good memories and fun times.

You can't change the past, only the future

Blesisngs

Ow has asked to meet for the sake of the kids. I have drafted a response; thoughts please!

It's not a good idea to meet. I cannot let you back in my life after you tried to destroy it. Your approach was too pre meditated and that scares me. Things from our meeting would be distorted as they already have been.

I am still being told from various Oakwood people that you lied to them about me so much; saying I was horrid and rude to you, harassed you, dominated Keith and forced you two together and that I always arranged for us to get together.

You know this is wrong.

I was always kind, I always defended you when people were you nasty about you, I never harassed however heartbroken I was and as for arranging all the gatherings.......that was you.... You would turn up at least twice a week (on the pretence about talking about FOO) and even invite yourself for breakfast some weekends.... I still have some of the messages! I certainly didn't book and pay for your hotel... You did. The affair happened because you wanted it to. Fact.

Even if what I am told is false it's still hurtful to think you are lying about me to make you look better. Enough damage has been done. It's sad you are hiding behind these lies.

I think we should have a clean break. I am sure the children will see each other at times and we will too... We will just have to be grown up.�

I have copied this to Anna so that she is aware if the communication and cannot misinterpret it. You have been rather clever not lying to Anna as I don't think she'd believe it. There are others however you have seen right through you.�

Such a great shame.

Don't listen to me, but I don't think you need to explain or justify yourself. How about a cute little 'Thank You' note and with a red big marker put 'NO' in front of it. Polite and to the point.

Let them spin in circles and get dizzy, you, to the general public, are leading a wonderful life, they need to know NOTHING of your anguish. Let them envy you! It will destroy them that you are happy. Then come here and cry on our shoulders, we'll keep your secret safe and dry your tears!

AEK1,

I totally agree with MFJ1974. Matter of fact, I don't even think I would respond. No contact means no contact for life. That skank didn't care about your kids when she was doing their father.

But if you and your FWH feel a need to respond, just a simple "No, thanks" will suffice. No explanations necessary.

For some reason I have never asked my h when his first slept with the OW. This is now bugging me.... Should I ask? Or will this set us back? I guess it doesn't matter but it's getting to me hence I'm posting to my Helpers at MB!

When I found out about my FWH affair, I wanted to know those kinds of details, too. I sensed the difference in him, and getting those answers helped me confirm it. I wanted to know exactly what I was dealing with. I think it's a worthwhile question.]

I don't know that not asking versus asking helps set the recovery back or not. I only know that for me, it was important, and recovery is a tough road in any case.

I think that you need the details you need.

For me, I had enough of the mind movies and enough information that spoiled other memories, I really didn't need more.

But if it is bugging you, then maybe make a note in a notebook, along with other questions that pop up.

Make some time in advance, maybe 2 weeks, tell WH you want to talk and then if the questions are still bugging you you can ask for the answers in a calm way without AO's and tears (never attractive!!)

It doesn't matter why you need the answers, you just do.

Blessings

AEK1,

THIS IS ABSURD AND RIDICULOUS !!!!!!!!


My blood is starting to boil. This is just another lame ploy to once again make herself (OW) look good and to paint you as the bad guy. "I tried to reach out but they turned me down." Just for the record my DH OW did the same exact thing.

She has just opened the door for your H to write that NC letter. Write a really good one. Post it here for feedback.
Send it.

AEK1,

Your kids will make new friends at their new school. They will end up being so very much happier not having to face these people anymore.

They must be a huge trigger for your kids. Get them out of the drama.

FWIW, I also sent my own letter (similar to yours) to OW. I didn't get any satisfaction from her - but it gave ME satisfaction. Inside she knew it was the truth. After I sent my letter, I have ignored anything and everything from her. I no longer let her take up any more time in my life. She does not exist to me.


The important thing here is NC letter from your H.



As for the details about the A. Your H should answer all your questions. Once you have everything you need to know ... you don't bring it up anymore.

Don't blame your H for the vindictive ways of the OW. He sounds like he is really trying.

Don't meet her. Don't send a long, self-justifying response.

If no NC letter has been sent, I agree, this is the time. If a letter has been sent, completely ignore her and close the door she used to send this message.

Get serious about blocking all avenues she might use to communicate. If you have not already done so, change phone numbers, email addresses, etc. If you're on social networking sites, you will need to set your privacy to maximum, and possibly leave altogether if you have mutual friends who might pull information into your news stream (even by accident).

Neglect of the details can set you up for a bunch of unavoidable pain, perhaps even a FR. Get them taken care of and save yourself the heartache.

A nc letter was never sent. It was too late by the time I found MB.

So send the nite/email or don't send the email????

It's a factual email that hopefully will make her feel bad but I dont want her to twist hence my suggestion to send to our close mutual friend....

AEK1,

The letter needs to come from your H. It needs to be handwritten and needs to address the hurt and disrespect that he and OW have caused you (his DW) and your family. It needs to state that he wants no further contact for life. The letter should be approved by you. You then send it or hand to OW / or OW H.

There are sample letters on this forum.

Your own letter will have no effect on the OW. She already knows what she did and that it was wrong. You also already know that she has complete disregard for you. Your letter will do nothing...except maybe give you some personal satisfaction. But even that is a far reach.

How do you know that OW wants a meeting? Did this come out at that BBQ?

Send an NC letter now, nothing more.

No matter how you try to express your pain, an OW will just see it as whiny and pathetic. It will give her ammo to use against you. Far, far better to say nothing from you.

An NC letter from your FWH is all she should receive, and again close ALL avenues of communication she might use.

Don't communicate w/her. She will only try to make things worse. It is like negotiating with a terrorist. A MARRIAGE terrorist who is out to blow up your marriage.

I spoke to ow1 2x in 2yrs. And I got confirmation on 1 thing once, and that was sf with my then wh. Second time was to let her know her married bf (my husband) was leaving my house after begging me back. (I am devious like that).

But it did'nt do a thing except she did break up with him a few weeks after that...crybaby ho only found out that he lied to her!!! Waaah waaah!

They simply CANNOT be trusted and there is nothing really good that could ever come from communication with a stinking ho.

All she should receive is the NC letter (approved by you) and sent by your wh. If you want to make sure the ho gets it, then have it with a return address slip delivered to her rutting lair.

I say do that. After all, you'll know she got it and that she'll know it was an important letter giving her ho-tice that her days as a skank with your husband and terrorizing your marriage and family is OVAH!!!

I think it's too late to send a NC letter.. It was 7 months ago and there has been no contact with my h and ow.

I think if my h sends a no contact letter now her h would go mad and he is a nasty piece of work at the best of times. If she sends another email asking to meet I will simply not reply. Thoughts?

NC is for both of you, so IMHO I would indeed send a letter, get him to write it, you approve it, you send it.

It will underline it for the skank.

Then pretend like she is dead, you can't contact dead people.

She broke NC herself. If a letter had already been sent, you would simply ignore it. Since no letter has been sent, she opened the door for you to do so.

Feeling down today. 2 years since my father died when ow was planning her attack.

Feel depressed today and questioning why I am with such a cheat.

Why did he never try and stop it. See the destruction. Realise what he was going to loose.

I have no security, no sense of future.

Help....

Hi Hun,

Anniversaries are always hard, and you got a double whammy.

Why did he never try and stop it. See the destruction. Realise what he was going to loose.

BECAUSE IT WAS ALL ABOUT HIM!!

Come on, you know this, you didn't feature in his thoughts at this time.

You have to get tough honey, with yourself. If you have decided to stay, have done all the stuff about details and exposure, have made a plan to recover, then you have to focus on here and now.

You can't change the past. You can change the future.

The pity parties are admittedly comforting but there comes a time when you have to loose the resentment and look at what you have. If you look at what you have and it's not right, then you have the choice to leave.

You know my story, you know what a plonker her is, but by fixing me, so I was that strong feisty woman again, he has to run to keep up. He knows how lucky he is, but we don't talk about it, we focus on what we have and what next.

Looking backwards all the time helps no one and also means you might just miss whats in front of you.

Blessings

AEK1

I'm sorry you are hurting.

I did make a decision to try and make this work but I don't think he deserves me.

Why should I forgive him?

AEK1,

Trust and respect he will have to earn - totally up to him. The forgiveness is more for you. When we forgive we release that person to be redeemed and we can begin the work of our own healing, whether we stay or go. When we hang on to all they've done we run the risk of growing a root of bitterness that can color every aspect of our lives and becomes so big we lose sight of the purpose in all of this. Just remember that forgiveness is a process, not just a one-time decision. You may have to remind yourself every five minutes you've forgiven him and eventually it will be ten, then 15... You get the drift!

You made a decision to stay and work and no matter what happens, you have chosen to do the hard work. When we do this (I chose to stay also)we grow no matter what the other party chooses.

Why? Because 1)you did choose to forgive and spiritually 2) EACH DAY we are forgiven and we don't deserve it, but somehow God thinks we are.

Hugs.

Keep on keepin' on.

Like Iga3 said, respect is not now. THAT IS EARNED thru time and with him working daily to re-earn that respect in your eyes.

It's hard b/c truthfully, the bs usually does all the hard work and it seems unfair too. I mean, THEY got to have all this wild affair and live on the dark side and pretend they weren't grownups OR married. They got to live and behave as a 16 year old again (a very BAD BAD BAD 16 year old).

They got to lie, cheat and steal, and many of them came kicking and screaming to the confessional phase, not really wanting to tell you of their affair and maybe not even wanting to end it.

But many wake up, see the horrific actions they did and are disgusted, and WANT AND TRY to change.

But by that point, you've done so much heavy lifting it can seem almost too much.

FOCUS instead on where you want it to be. Think of the new marriage which is building and the fact your kids will be in a loving family, and not one torn up by divorce.

All good things will come in time, IF HE WORKS now as hard as you do. But know he has to begin the hard work himself.

Hugs to you.

AEK1,

My Dad is still is still around but I know how devastated I would be if he was not. I have seen others around me hurting on the anniversary of a parents death. I even know a few who cannot even make it into work the sorrow is so strong. Try to remember the good times with him. Celebrate what his life was.

AEK1 I am wondering if you are doing the same thing that I used to do. I noticed that whenever I felt down or whenever something bad happened to me I would shift my bad thoughts to WH who in reality had nothing to do with why I was feeling down...but I would start to resent him and wonder why I was with him. Once I realized what was happening, I was able to control my thoughts better and to feel bad about what I really felt bad about. Did that make sense?

You have had TWO major triggers. OW contacted you and the anniversary of your Dad's death. Of course you are feeling really down right now. That is the normal reaction.

Do you really want to throw it all away? Give it a few days and see how you feel. Allow yourself to mourn for your Dad.

Recovery is a roller coaster. You're on a downhill slope right now, but it is a temporary place. I don't recommend making decisions while on the low sections.

Expect that you will feel better, and then worse again, and then better after that. Over time, the slopes get more and more gentle, till you're finally off the ride.

Only you have the answer to that one honey.

Indeed he doesn't deserve you, you didn't deserve this mess, but it's what's on your plate.

You don't have to forgive him, thats not even in the equation yet, he has to do the do.

Is he walkin the walk? Is he doing things to show you he is sorry?

Plonker doesn't say much but his actions speak volumes. He doesn't do words, but he does do the stuff.

Does yours? Is he doing the things that make you smile and show you he is trying to fix things?

Let go some of the resentment, it's a waste of energy when you could be doing productive things.

Blessings

Long journey in car today. Gave h a hard time for so much lying and calling me a [censored]. Backwards step!

How do I embrace my h again after sleeping with a fat hairy woman who is twice my size? He is trying hard but it's not working, I don't respect him or fancy him anymore.... It's gone. What shall I do?

It just shows how down and broken he was. Would you respect or fancy him more if OW was knock out gorgeous?

I know your anger and resentment are telling you to kick him to the curb. What is your heart telling you? You do know that we told you that you would not recover if you continued to run in same circles as OW. The triggers will pull you down forever. The anger and resentment will be with you always.

Even if you kick him to the curb.

AEK1 - here it is - you have reached the next stage! Congratulations.

It is very common at around 6 months into recovery that the BS gets very, very angry with the WS because the BS now knows that the marriage is not at risk from the affair anyomer.

A funny thing happens when the BS knows the marriage is no longer likely to end and the WS won't be leaving for the OP - the BS gets MAD.

But this too will pass. Hopefully your H is being sweet and understanding about all this. My advice to you is to continue meeting each other's EN's and you will soon enough start feeling better. and SENT THE NC LETTER ALREADY!!!!

Being angry and resentful are totally understandable.

Does it make things any better at home?

Does it bring you and H closer together?

Does it make you happy?

Is it what you want?

Is there ever enough time to really pound it into him he has been a plonker?

You see, in my journey I have made many decisions. Bear in mind I was in a weird position where I knew about most of it for most of the time so I think I rode the roller coaster for a long long time.

I had to find a way to manage it.

I decided on Dday 1 to stay, and I worked on me, in retrospect I was way to clingy and needy but I still worked on me.

I decided that I didn't want to be depressed any more so fought my way out of that by learning more about me and working on me.

I found out who I was and realised I was pretty amazing. I got strong and when I was finally ready i made him decide just what it was he wanted.

He also made a decision and after a while things are good or at least the good things outweigh the bad ones.

Thats my journey in a nutshell, it took 5 years.

Throughout I reminded myself I decided to stay.

Is your mind set making you happy?

Can you see a light at the end of the tunnel that might not be an oncoming train?

Can I suggest that you find somewhere and some time in your day to spend in silence. 10 mins to start with. Total silence.

Listen to your inner goddess/god/whatever you call it.

Keep listening.

What would he have to do to make you happy, and he's not Dr Who. He doesn't have a time machine.

Blessings

Try reading this thread about forgiveness:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...in=160280&Number=2519892#Post2519892

It's fine for you to be angry - terrific, even - because it means you're going through the stages of healing. What is not ok is to allow your feelings to lead you to AO's or DJ's. So the more angry you are, the more you need to be on guard against lovebusters. Your anger can be expressed respectfully and constructively.

Make an effort to focus on the positive things in your life. Allow FWH to meet your needs, even if you have to tell him very specifically what you want him to do for you.

Get your 20+ hours of UA time in without fail, and the new memories you form will serve as ballast against losing your balance.

He is trying but is still at times defensive. I don't feel the marriage is at risk anymore; you are right. I am stronger than before.

Def Not meeting h en as not in mood to make love quite frankly.... I wonder when that desire will return....

feelings follow actions.

Read the forgiveness link. Makes so much sense. I was abused by my baby sitter when I was young and dare raped when I was 15. I have forgiven those people so I sure hope I find forgiveness for WH and ow.

Do any of you VETS follow the Secret or The Key? Gratitude is my new mantra.

Did I swear? No replies.....??!

Where have you all gone?

AEK, I was able to achieve forgiveness by doing one key thing; not striving for it. Not thinking about it.

It happened through time and action from FWW.

By not allowing your current lack of forgiveness to control your thoughts and actions, you can move toward the point in which you will achieve it.

Feeling down today. Feel angry today. Sense apathy from FWH. Think he thinks he needs to try but not sure je really wants to. If he lived me he would never have risked EVERYTHING.

AEK1, Are you and H getting your minimum 15 hours a week UA time? During this important time of recovery, you should be putting it even more time. Are you making sure you are meeting each others most important emotional needs?

Your H had committed adultery because of poor boundaries, not because he didn't love you. Once the adultery started, the fog sets in and they say fog-babble things like ILYBINILWY. I know the logic SHOULD say that if he loved me, he would NOT have done this, but it's easier for a man to engage in a secret second life. There is no logic to adultery.

Ask him how he is feeling rather than assuming he is feeling particular way. It will give him a chance to be open and honest. And it gives you the opportunity as well.

AEK1,

I found that when I feel like that it is usually because something triggered me.

I have also found that when I feel like that and become distant toward DH - he is completely baffled by why I am suddenly distant. He then starts to distance himself from me. It turns into a road to ruin.

I have found that if I turn to him and explain what I am feeling - he then turns toward me and tries to fix it. But I have to open the door for him and give him a chance. Otherwise he is just baffled and confused.

UA time is crucial. It's all about rebuilding the romantic love.

Pokerface....I cannot believe that we have a similar story re: friend/neighbour and kids friends.....

You guys are so strong and wise. I hope I get there one day.

Most of the time I am looking forward but it's tough.

Today I feel I am over whelmed with work - I am a photographer. I haven't stopped since all this silliness started.....yet he has been out of work for months. He has a job starting in Sept but why hasn't he gone out and earned some money....he got us in to this mess. He says that he wanted us to be together and try and get our marriage on track...I say he was just being lazy quite frankly. I have a huge pile of new school uniform to label and pay for and I am so worried about the children settling in to their new school and him in to his new job.

I do love him but I think he is very selfish. He doesn't understand me if I have an off day or if I am a bit short with him.

I hope the days will get easier and the memories will fade. As you all said it would have been easier to move away from the area as when we come back it triggers me off.....need to address that in time but need to get kids settled first - think we will move north of school which will mean a good hour away from 'trouble'.

Thank you for everything.

No I don;t think we are getting enough me and him time. We are together a huge amount of the time but it's the school holidays and the kids are here too. Pre July, we were getting enough hours together but everything was pretty raw then.

Sometimes I just wonder why I am doing this. Wouldn't I be better alone? I know I would be ok and then I could meet a decent man who would never do this....as I now I know how to avoid it.

That's the big question, isn't it? I have asked myself that question every day. As the BW, you absolutely have the right to end things if you feel it is what is best for you.

For me, I chose to work it out because I love my H and I knew it would be best for my kids. Is it harder than separating? Yes. Is it worth it? For me, yes.

This sounds like the perfect dream to me.

Do you think it's realistic?

It might just bring a whole new different set of issues to your life. For instance,the kids might hate your new dream man ...this is often the case.

Think real hard about this ... before you do anything.

Give more UA a try. It is crucial.

What is your DH doing with his time?

I think this is a pretty normal thing for a BS to wonder. I know I did. It helped me, to know that I had choices in recovery. I would consider the choice of ending the M, but I always came back to the same thing: I loved my H. If I left him, I would be leaving the man I loved, but I'd still have the hurt. I realized that it wasn't the man I wanted to leave - I wanted the pain to leave. So I continued to make the choice to remain in my M and work through recovery. As we continued to recover and rebuild I considered leaving the M less and less, until it was no longer an option I considered at all.

AEK1, One thing to keep in mind about second marriages, especially those with children, is that they have an even higher divorce rate than first marriages. Sad, isn't it? It's hard to keep a great fantasy going with depressing statistics.

Being alone is always an option, but think of all you and your FWH have built these years together.

My H and I have been married for 31 years, and after D-Day, I remember thinking all that week that if that skanky ho of an OW thought I was going to slink away quietly and hand over everything I had helped to build with my H, she was WRONG.

After we started the road to recovery, even up to just a couple of weeks ago, I also thought of leaving, just to be on my own. Forget about a second marriage! Just to have some peace from the awful thoughts. I had to remind myself that the affair would NOT win.

Your H is completely back to you, right? And completely in love with you again and has his EPs in place? Do you really want to throw out all the history you have as a couple and the dreams, now that POSOW is out of your lives? You and your H are parents to children and have a really good shot at a rewarding marriage if you live out the MB principles.

Keep working at building a romantic relationship. It might be a good idea to sign up for the Online Class. That's been very helpful for us.

But absolutely can't stress enough the importance of getting that UA time every week. That's going to the be key. And the UA time must be enjoyable.

Can you handle your DH finding HIS new dream woman and then having to share your kids with this wonderful woman? They might love her too and come home and tell you all about the great things they did together.

That would kill me... I just want my family.

Hi AEK

Been away playing with Plonker for a week with no internet access and on my return thought I would look in on you!

You never say much about you H, is he doing all the right stuff? are you still checking up on him?

I know well the feeling of wanting to walk away. But like someone else said, then I would be miserable on my own and I do love the Plonker. So I chose to stay. As far as I know he has kicked her to the kerb, he's lovely with me, attentive, affectionate, kind.

I haven't mentioned Ginge in about 8 weeks, she gets more insignificant to me all the time. He hasn't mentioned her, we stopped all the A talk and focus on here and now.

I ALSO GOT MYSELF TOUGH ENOUGH THAT I KNEW I WOULD BE FINE ON MY OWN.

That made it a real choice.

So I stay, we wok at it without discussing it. We just had 7 days together 24/7, and not a single cross word. I can't ever remember doing that pre DDay2. We enjoyed each others company and did great stuff.

Of course it's still there in the back of everything, but then so are lots of other problems. I just didn't want to end 23 years together without giving it a last real try.

Hang on in there honey, try reading Deepak Chopra 7 secrets of success (Or something similar)it helped me focus on what was important.

Blesisngs

I have read the secret and the key. I found these quite useful. H is ok I think although his mistake has severy affected his career, our income and people has lost respect for him. Don't really know how to help him because I have similar feelings and have very little respect for him.

We don't talk about the A much anymore. I have days when it's in my mind but these are getting much less.

I will be relieved when sept is over and hopefully the kids will be settled at school.

I think a move is essential.

Ditto on that move.

I've never read them.

Dittoes, many dittoes on needing to get enough UA time. You will not have loving feelings return when you're not getting enough $LB deposits, and the same for him.

As to finding someone else, so much depends on where FWH ends up. For example, I know for myself that if I was to go out and find someone new, who had never cheated, he would be far more likely to cheat on me than AJ. AJ has been through it and come out the other side, and is able to recognize the first hint of potential danger.

As good of a man as he has always been, he just wasn't that sensitive or aware before.

So I would trust him more now than someone who hasn't been through it. His actions show that he is trustworthy.

This is my draft reply to OW who wants to meet. I do not want to meet her - she does not deserve my company.......




I have thought long and hard about meeting with you.

It is not a good idea. I don't have anything to say to you and every time we have seen each other the content has been twisted. You were willing to take my husband and children away from me; that was your intention.

Thankfully, Johnnie and I are in a better place (and may be we have you to thank for this); he has realised that it was all about physical gratification (which was on a plate 24/7 - you were always in our house) and that he had no true feelings towards you....you started it, made the first move, suggested meetings, made it happen....he just took part. Guilty but not manipulative.

Good luck.

OW darft - redone...thoughts please.

I have thought long and hard about meeting with you.

It is not a good idea. I don't have anything to say to you and every time we have seen each other the content has been twisted. You were willing to take my husband and children away from me; I am clear that this was your intention.

Thankfully, Johnnie and I are in a better place (and may be we have you to thank for this); he has realised that it was all about physical gratification (which was on a plate 24/7 - you were always in our house) and he knows now that he had no feelings towards you....you started it, made the first move, bought the first gift, suggested meetings, made him feel guilty if he didn't want to see you, made it happen....he just took part as it was on tap and was very weak. Guilty but not manipulative.

Good luck with your future We all deserve happiness.

FWIW honey, I think thats very fair.

I think it would be different if you hadn't known her, but as she was a friend I think that is dignified and kinder that she deserves.

It's what I would send to Ginge should she ever have the bottle to contact me.

Others will probably have a different view, but it is clear your story is similar to mine and I think that letter shows who is the bigger woman.

Well done.

Probably shouldn't send this....it will open wounds even further. Just don't know how to get rid of my anger some days. She knew what she was doing. He was weak and thinking with his **** I guess they are both as bad as each other. Help.

Of course he was thinking with his d!ck, it's what they do.

Anger: my solutions :-

I have a riding crop, I whip the bed, makes a good noise and I can picture Ginge, also gets you hot and sweaty, so a good work out too!

Power walk

clean stuff, very thoroughly

Go up to the moors and yell

write it out and then burn it. Send the ashes into running water.

Do a round up of all the good things in my life.

Offer to muck out at the stables I ride at!

Physical stuff works well for me, gets it all out and no damage done.

Seems you need to learn to let go a bit honey, focus on what you have now.....that new marriage eh??

Thank you. I need to do more exercise and focus on the future. The future could be bright but I am not letting it be that way right now. I have lost 2 good friends and feel lonely. I need to get out there and make new friends.......

Ok AEK1,

I know that it is not recommended to send the letter. But I understand that need to address this person who was presenting herself as your friend while assaulting your marriage behind your back. Who does that and HOW?

Since your letter is in response to a request from OW on the pretense to "help" the kids. I would consider adding something to address that:

Please have the decency to let us rebuild our family and restore the kids sense of security. Any further contact with you is inappropriate and embarrassing to us all including our children.

Good luck AEK1.

No, no, no, no, NO!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry, just walking out the door and don't have time to beat around the bush.

First of all, she should have no reply. Zero.

Second of all, if you are driven to reply, do not hand her so much weaponry to use against you, and above all, DO NOT THANK HER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you choose to disregard Piece of Advice #1 and send something to her, at least send something like this:

I know and also know how hard that is too.

Is there something you did as a child and always enjoyed, for me it was riding and I started doing that weekly, when I look back I can see how much making that one decision changed things.

The year I found out about Plonker and Ginge, I also lost other friends, some linked, others who moved away, lost my fav gay mate as he couldn't cope with my distress and then my dog was killed by a car. It was the worst year ever, I didn't think I would get through it.

I did, I grew and I got tough. I made new and better friends and changed my job too.

Counselling helped me too, it did great things for my self esteem which as you can imagine was rock bottom.

Thinkin of you

Have any of you vets tried nlp? I have booked some counselling to see if it can help.

As a Christian, I avoid NLP and other New Age-based practices.

There are many ways to retrack your thoughts, and keep on a mentally healthy course. Take care of you. Do things that you enjoy. Read good books. Listen to good music.

Whenever your thoughts are negative, make a choice to dwell on positive things.

Interesting. I've never looked much at NLP, but knew a few atheists who condemned it as pseudoscientific. So it sounds like almost every perspective condemns it.

That's very interesting...I never knew that.

I use NLP in my work with people and animals, I am not a Christian and therefore don't make judgements about things without evidence or on a purely dogmatic basis.

Try it, it might be good for you, it might not be but different things work for different people.

I will try it and see. I am committed to trying everything to see what works.

A good long weekend away but feeling triggers as we approach home. I know why. We have to move. I have to cut ties with peole who are still seeing OW.
How do I do this? Do I tell my GF that I can't be friends with her anymore? I tried before and she gave me the impression that she was not prepared to choose. She says she doesn't see much of OW anymore and may be she doesn't but I know they are in contact.... Please tell me what to do. I don't want to loose my GF but it hurts too much to know she is friends with Ow

Hi hun

you have choices, you can carry on being friends with your GF, kmow that she is still in touch with OW but ask her to refrain from mentioning her to you or you to her......big ask....

Or you simply move away and let the friendship die.....make a new group of friends.....you will anyway

Or suck it up, stay her friend and hurt with what you are feeling today, every time you see her cos you know she is still friendly with OW and you will spend forever in your head doing the 'why' question. Not healthy. The hurt will get less but it's a long road....

Choices

Blessings

OK so I give my H another chance. But why are people giving ow a 2nd chance? Surely women in affairs are so much worse? Why is her husband still with her? She started it with my H. She made it happen. Why oh why are people wanting to be friends with her? I find it so hurtf. I guess if they think my H deserves a 2nd chance then so does she.

Thank you as ever... How long does this take? It's so painful.

Really struggling today....this anger comes in waves. May be because it is the start of the new school and H job. I am nervous. I am annoyed that he changed the path of our life. My kids didn't want to leave school but he forced it due to his selfish behaviour. I just don;t know how I get over this. I have had to move house, move job, move life, leave friends and she is still with her H is her mansion, her kids are at the same school and their life has hardly changed. When do I move on? When will I get over this? when will i stop feeling angry?

AEK1, recovery takes time. A lot of time. Minimum is 2 - 5 years, I read.

I'm 9 months into recovery with a fully on-board, very remorseful FWH, and it still takes time. I'm only just now beginning to think that there is hope. I also swung back and forth in emotions--hating him one moment, apathy the next, and then wishing our M could somehow go back to what it once was...but it can't.

The past cannot be changed. Keeping working the program. Meet each others emotional needs, spend time alone together, do some enjoyable things, and build new memories.

I also think of the OW. But guess what, my H has put her completely away in his mind, preferring the present to the recent past. He hates what he did and has put in place his EPs to protect our marriage.

Just keep doing what you know is right. Feelings will follow the actions in time.

I want to add that the "new" marriage we have been building post-A truly is richer than the fine marriage we had before.

It's little things, like now we sit together on the couch when we watch a movie and munch our popcorn from one bowl. In the past, we always sat separately with separate bowls. Nothing wrong with separate seating, but we are definitely more affectionate now.

In the past, we made love when we had the time. Now we make the time and SF is better than ever. H feels very comfortable calling me from work to say that's what he'd love to do when he comes home. And guess what? I'm in bed when he walks through the door. Granted, we are empty-nesters and have that kind of freedom, but still, we are pretty thrilled with where our marriage is heading.

My H has committed himself to losing the weight that bugged me and he allows nothing to stand in the way. He is looking really handsome and I love looking at him when he's undressing. I never did before.

I look at our marriage the way I look at our old place where we used to live, a wonderful quirky old 1926 bungalow in Southern California. We rented it for 4 years. When we found out H had orders to a new location, we tried to buy the bungalow, but the owner didn't want to sell.

So we bought a modern townhouse just down the street. It's not as cute as the bungalow. It doesn't have the same funny little amenities I loved about the bungalow, but it does have some nice features, because it's only a few years old. More electrical outlets, bigger and more closets, an attached garage, 2.5 bathrooms instead of just one.

I loved my old bungalow but we could not keep it. I'm sure we will love our new town house (it's being rented out now while we're away.) I found this to be like our marriage. I loved our marriage pre-A. I really did. It had its pitfalls, but there were many wonderful things about our marriage that I loved. That marriage, like our bungalow, is no longer mine/ours. But like our new town house, there will be many good things about our new marriage. Some things will be much better than our 1926 bungalow and there are some things we will miss.

{{{AEK1}}} You and your family have had to make some major changes because of your H's selfishness. I can't blame you for feeling some anger about that. But you will adjust. You will eventually make peace with that. Because it's in your best interest to do so.

Try making a new memory today. Maybe take the kids out for dinner tonight to celebrate the start of a new school year.

Try not to let OW own any more of your thoughts than you have to. And when the thought of her does intrude, switch it away from feeling that she got out of the A unscathed. Because you don't know that. There could be a lot of negative things happening in her world. The karma bus can be slow, but it's pretty reliable.

Things will settle in for you - soon, I hope!

Thank you everyone. Just hard. isn't it? You wonder if you deserved this and if he deserves you. Things will be better once the children have started school and he is back at work......fingers crossed.

Just want to toss in here that....

No, you didn't deserve it. Betrayal is a horrible experience.

And guess what? After my two hopefully encouraging posts to you yesterday, I am very upset with myself for bringing up the A last night for no darn good reason, with the ridiculous expectation and vain hope that there is some guarantee out there for me. And there isn't....

I read the posts on other threads that although there is no guarantee, what we do have is the opportunity to rebuild and recover our marriages, with EPs in place and working non-stop. That's a really good start for all of us. It's what we should always have had in our marriages.

Recovery IS hard, but we must always remind ourselves that our marriage could have been completely unrecoverable with our spouses still foggy. And that is what we have to keep reminding ourselves. Fingers pointing back at me.

Keep working it, AEK1. You are a much better woman than OW, and your H is home with you and wants a great marriage.

Another grumpy day. Pissed off with him. He made me look folkish, he let the kids down, our whole life is in tatters. I don't respect him anymore. What do I do?

AEK1,

I remember when I hit that road block and just couldn't get past it. My wise colleague at work told me that I needed to learn to let things pass or I would end up old and bitter.

That really hit home for me because I could see that it was where I was headed. I want to be happy...not old and bitter.

Your WH cannot change the choices he made in the past but can only go forward. Is he remorseful and has he changed?

Do you ever read any of the other threads?

It helped me to find peace when I started to read the other threads and found my own story to be quite common. Frightening how the affair part always plays out the same. My story was not any more shameful or embarrassing than any of the other thousands of stories. Quite common actually.

Many of the stories gave me hope and courage to keep fighting for my marriage and my family. They were an inspiration to me.

Thank you for this. I will read some other threads. Yes sadly my story is common but on some days this doesn't help. You were all right we need to move away from this town. I hope things will get better once the child and WH are at school. I need some time to look after me. I don't want to be old and bitter but sometimes are not sure how to avoid that. X

As soon as you conquer one emotion (anger) the next one sets in (resentment). It is a process. Give yourself time. Focus on rebuilding your love and affair proofing the M. Those are the biggest healers.

When I got stuck in the resentment, I used to look around at my life and be grateful for what I had. There is a lot of pain in this world.

Really AEK1, take some time everyday to follow the stories here. These are real people. It will help you to put things in perspective.

Hi Hun,

I think Pokerface is right, I spent so much time stuck in the resentment and anger and poor me, it's not fair process and after a while (a long while) I began to start saying thank you. I also got angry with myself for being stuck.

Thank you for a sunset, thank you for a glimpse of a fox or an owl, I looked at the stuff I did have and how good that was and tried to visualise it like scales or percentages. I worked out that 60% was good, 20% manageable and 20% was pants. That did kind of help.

It passes is the bottom line, but you have to put work in to make it pass, it doesn't do it alone. You have to make some moves.

Reading other threads did help me see I wasn't alone too. Neak helped, as did Jess, they both had scarily similar stories or entrenched stuff and both had similar reaction to me.

Try it......

Blessings

Thank you so much. I have been down today. heard that my friend is now on holiday with the OW......also heard that OW lied so much about me....made me out to be really horrible and was the cause of me being banned from school as she said I was harassing her.....why did people believe her? Why do people continue to feel sorry for her and give her the benefit of the doubt? I feel so hurt that post and during the A that she lied and said so many horrid things about me.....why? why did people believe her? Why has she won.....I have lost a good friend because she continues to believe her. I am very sad.

Call up the "lost friends" one by one.
Maybe one a week.
Call to ask each friend out to lunch.
One on one.

Then, do something amazing.
Do not talk about WH/OW/ the A ... or your marriage.

Ask about the friend and her life.
Keep the topic off of yourself and off your woes.
Keep the topic on her.
Smile.
Show empathy.
Be a listener.

See what transpires.

And, furthermore, if the friend tries to bring up the OW/WH/etc ..... you stop her and laugh ... "Let's just have fun today. OK? I just want to enjoy your company."

See what transpires.

One friend a week.

Great advice.

Good plan. Tough but a good plan. I don't want to be the moaner. I want to be the person I was ...happy, fun and helpful.

Just an update. Had some good NLP - it seems to have helped with my anxiety - anything to help. The kids and H went to new school today. They all looked happy. I must learn that as long as they are happy and learning I should relax. I have tried to block out the other school/old friends and I am confident I can do this 99% of the time (as long as my lot are happy!!!!).
My old friend didn't even send me a good luck message whereas others have sent messages/flowers and all sorts.....
Thank you for helping me so much. We are on a better path and I will try and stick to it...onwards and upwards!

AEK1. That's great. You will find that you have more and more UP days as you take control of your life.

You know you did the right thing when you look at your family and see everyone together and happy. Keep stepping forward and upward.

Cheers.

Welcome to the roller coaster!!

You will have good days, make time to register them, the odd thing is that the minute you start doing that you also notice more of them.

Those days when you know you made the right choices?

They are useful on the other days!!

Smile, it does things to your brain chemistry, breathe, eat well, do something for you.

Blessings