I haven't really seen much discussion related to the impact of menopause on a marriage. My wife is in peri-menopause and we think she's just about to menopause. The last 3-4 years has been extremely difficult on both of us. I believe that menopause has played a part but I don't blame it on our difficulties. In a nutshell, we've been married for 30 years, 4 kids, one still at home. 3 yrs ago my wife told me that she didn't love me anymore and thought that we should get a divorce. After 3 years of groundhog day, we still have not moved forward at all. I've read His Needs Her Needs and understand the concepts and believe in them. My wife has not read the book though I have inserted ideas from the concepts into our discussions.
My main problem is that I've neglected our marriage. There has been no infidelity by either of us but we've never bonded either. Honesty has been a big problem with me. I don't share everything about a subject; I leave out important parts for fear of getting in trouble or ending up in a fight. My wife has angry outbursts frequently now and has over the years. I believe that these have been so frequent that even when things are peaceful, I fear sharing anything difficult because I believe that there will be an angry outburst. We've discussed this together but my wife feels that she needs to express her anger because that is honest. We've talked about how the angry outbursts are a result of me not being open and I believe that but it doesn't mean that I can just get over my insecurities overnight. When my wife has an angry outburst, I freeze up. I don't know what to say, I just go silent. I believe that the combination of the angry outbursts and my fear of opening up are destroying our marriage. I feel paralyzed by this situation and am heartbroken to see the damage that is being inflicted on us.
I have also destroyed trust in a huge way with some things that I have done. The biggest trust destroyer is that I took a job with another company that included taking a 50% paycut with the promise of bonuses that would make up that 50%. I didn't discuss this in the sort of detail that I should have with my wife and I went ahead and accepted the job. The bonuses never came through as expected and now we are struggling financially as well. I've been working consulting opportunities as they come along to try to make up some of the difference but there is just not enough opportunity at this point to help enough. Every day is difficult and I dread going home at night or even picking up the phone to call my wife because I have nothing to say to her and I literally fear speaking with her. I am paralyzed and not sure how to proceed or even where to start. This all seemed to really come to a head when peri-menopause started but I don't feel that its right to blame this condition; it is in my opinion just a contributor to the difficulties. Looking for some insight into the menopause topic as well as dealing with the angry outburst situation...
Often when a wife say's she's not in love anymore, its is because she is comparing her husband to another man.
Does she spend time alone out of the home?
Any opposite sex friends?
No, there is no evidence of any relationship outside of our marriage. She is a stay-at-home mom and typically only leaves home when I am with her. She doesn't have any male friends. I've snoopped emails and website browsing history and there is nothing there...
If I were you, I would sign up for the MB online program because the problem is not menopause but poor marriage habits. Menopause might have magnified her lovebusters, but the basic problem is her bad habit of "expressing" her anger. You and your wife need a complete paradigm shift in your thinking about marriage. A bad marriage affects everything, your career, everything.
Many of us went through the MB program and it completely changed our marriages. The great thing about the program is that you have a coach and Dr Harley to help you get over the bumps. For example, my husband used to have angry outbursts [so did I] and Dr Harley addressed this with him. He STOPPED! And I also stopped my independent behavior. That has resulted in a happy, passionate, romantic marriage where we are both in love.
The program now is around $1000 and is worth every penny if you can swing it and IF you can persuade her to do it with you. It really does work.
You can also get free advice from Dr Harley by writing him on his radio show. He might even help you get your wife on board. If you can get your wife on board we could help you go through the program just using the books.
That is a wonderful idea but with our financial situation as it is right now, that is not possible. My wife goes through days/weeks of emotional withdrawal and then there will be a ray of sunshine for a few days and then back into the withdrawal again. She has no interest in any sort of counseling with me at this point. I need to begin somewhere and actually DO something but I'm so overwhelmed by everything that we're dealing with that I just tend to lose hope and revert to my default ways of ignoring things and hoping that they will just go away. This just tends to magnify things and cause them to spiral out of control over and over again. I believe that I need to start showing some signs of dedication to growing personally or it will be over...
I'm not confident that she would have any interest to fill out this questionnaire at this point. She views my reading books on marriage in a negative light. She believes that we've already uncovered the source of our problems and that I just won't commit to taking action and facing my fears. I believe that she is correct.
"Growing personally" in what way? That seems like a distraction.
What are her main complaints about you?
She believes that we've already uncovered the source of our problems and that I just won't commit to taking action and facing my fears. I believe that she is correct.
What are the actions she wants you to take?
There have been some events over our marriage that have never really been resolved. She has asked that I talk with her about these events until I understand the damage that I have done. My "talking" is so robotic that I feel it does no good. My wife accuses me of skipping the steps of repentance by always trying to get to forgiveness before I've gone through the fire of facing what I've done first. Here is a quick synopsis of what I would call the "bigger" events:
1) Took a job with a 50% paycut without discussing in enough detail with my wife and coming to an agreement together...i acted independently
2) Our family dog was very sick and we thought that she was going to die. My wife was also very sick on the same day and I ended up spending most of my time tending to the dog instead of to my wife.
3) My wife needed to have some major dental work done shortly after I had taken the new job. This was very expensive and when we met with the dentist's staff to discuss the cost of the work to be done, I went silent and my wife dealt with the whole thing. I didn't lend any comfort to her as a husband should and just let her deal with it alone.
4) I have focused heavily on making a living and the responsibility for the family has been on her shoulders. I viewed this for many years as my responsibility and the mere fact that I was working and supporting the family financially should have been enough to justify that I was supporting my family. Now I see that this was a huge mistake but now its too late and the kids are grown up.
Those are a handful of the events that have become very difficult to deal with. They all tend to be centered around independent behavior on my part. My wife is looking for me to show some personal growth in facing these difficulties and "owning" them.
Does your wife want to have a happy, romantic marriage?
I don't have any doubts that she wants to have a happy and romantic relationship and marriage. I believe that she thinks that I'm not capable of doing what it takes to create such a relationship. At this point, I would have to agree with her. I've not shown any consistency in my work to repair our marriage and we are constantly starting over. Its all extremely frustrating...
Ok, we can help you both with this because many of us have gone through this ourselves and transformed our own marriages. If she would come here and work with us, we can help you both. You could get the benefit of those of us who have gone through the program.
Can you ask her to come here and start a thread? Tell her I am inviting her and will help her get the kind of marriage she wants. I will recruit others on the board to help too.
I would like him to print that up and give it to her.
I have to think about that. I believe that what you say is true but I'm not sure that I'm capable at this point of asking my wife to do this...
No I've not seen this...I will take a look at it
I have to think about that. I believe that what you say is true but I'm not sure that I'm capable at this point of asking my wife to do this...
Well you dont know until you ask. You have nothing to loose
Hey! Welcome to MB dividejim!
First off I applaud you for beginning the heavy lifting of repairing your marriage. The first step in this is admitting you got a problem (or two) you have done that. Excellent! Check!
The next step is to identify the problems. You have began to do that. That's a good start. Your still at home so you got one up on many. Know that you can't change your wifes behaviour, only your own. As you change the things you need to be a better man for your wife your wife will slowly take notice and her feelings will change. You might not notice overnight but feelings follow actions. Her love bank balance is far in the negative. Your overdrawn and its time to start paying back that overdraft.
Don't worry for now if your wife is on board or not. She's not feeling safe with you as of yet because she has yet to see some consistency in your changes. Getting your wife to fill out the emotional needs questionair would be extremely helpful, but if she is unwilling then you could take some educated guesses and begin to work on the top 5 anyways.
I am going to assume intimate conversation is her top need as it is with 90% of most women make sure conversation is light and fun. Maybe plan a date that reminds you of the "good days" and have conversations about good times you had before. Lead the conversations in a way that it brings the good things she remembers about you to the for front of her global mindset and watch her feelings change. Women are emotional creatures so they need the horomone oxyocin (bonding chemical produced when hugging or after love making etc). If your conversations are always negative it just continues to feed that negative loop in her head and reinforces her lack of love feeling. Good conversation will deposit many love untits. So will a good date focused on her.
MNG
No I've not seen this...I will take a look at it
Fantastic and I think MelodyLane's suggestion about printing it up and have your wife look at it is an excellent idea.
I just emailed the article entitled "How to Create Your Own Plan to Resolve Conflicts
and Restore Love to Your Marriage". I don't know if she'll be open to this or not but I'm giving it a shot. I will let you know what happens...thank you
Ok, we can help you both with this because many of us have gone through this ourselves and transformed our own marriages. If she would come here and work with us, we can help you both. You could get the benefit of those of us who have gone through the program.
Can you ask her to come here and start a thread? Tell her I am inviting her and will help her get the kind of marriage she wants. I will recruit others on the board to help too.
I highly recommend you do this.
Tell her you have found a program that is going to help you change, and that you are going to become the husband she needs. Give her the chance to participate.
If she refuses, that's ok. You still have hope. There are men here who have won their wives back without their wives initially participating. You have a very good chance of doing the same.
I just emailed the article entitled "How to Create Your Own Plan to Resolve Conflicts
and Restore Love to Your Marriage". I don't know if she'll be open to this or not but I'm giving it a shot. I will let you know what happens...thank you
Great!
I have to think about that. I believe that what you say is true but I'm not sure that I'm capable at this point of asking my wife to do this...
"Wife, I know I have made you unhappy in this marriage and I am committed to never doing anything to make you unhappy again. You have also told me that you want to have a romantic, passionate marriage. I want this too. I am willing to do what it takes to change my behavior to make you happy. How would you feel about going through this program with me to help us achieve our goals?"
You know that one of the biggest struggles that I have is in having intimate conversations with my wife. I can have an intimate conversation much easier with a stranger than I can with my wife. I've always thought that its because there are no emotional ties to a stranger but there are to my wife. Any suggestions on strategies for overcoming the fear of having an intimate conversation with someone that is important to you?...
Pick topics that interest her. ASK more questions of her. Talk about yourself if she asks, but focus on her interests, dreams, desires.
Then, LISTEN, digest the info, and ask more, related questions.
I guess that what I struggle with is how a woman can seem to talk for hours on end about many many things. I start talking about something and I'm done after a few minutes. I'm not sure if thats just being male or if it is me. I have had the kind of relationship when I was a young man where I was comfortable talking about anything and I could talk for hours on end to a girlfriend of mine at the time that I was in love with. I've always struggled with that sort of conversation with my wife and I don't understand why.
Hi, Jim. Welcome to Marriage Builders - I believe we can help you. In fact I've seen people in situations very similar to yours helped.
First off, I want to assure you that it is very typical for only one spouse to be on board with following this program, at first. That is the normal situation. If both husband and wife were on board, they usually wouldn't be here, because they'd just follow the recommendations and have a great marriage, and we'd never hear from them.
Dr. Harley has commented many times that if it is the husband who is on board and the wife is reluctant, the marriage has a great chance of being turned around. I personally found myself in that situation when I came here, and I had to really stick it out and get extremely well-educated in the ins and outs of the Marriage Builders plan, but I was able to turn my marriage around, and my wife is today very enthusiastic about all of this because it saved our marriage and made her life and marriage wonderful.
Hopefully it will take less time and effort for you, but if not, I want to encourage you to persevere.
See if your wife is willing to get started based on the article that was suggested for you to show her. If she is, that is fantastic! But if not, don't despair - keep posting to us, and we will help you with Dr. Harley's recommendations for how to win your wife back.
I strongly encourage you to get the book Love Busters and the book Five Steps to Romantic Love. And I also strongly encourage you (even more strongly!) to start listening to Dr. Harley's daily radio show, Marriage Builders Radio:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com//graphic/mbi4200_radio.htmlThat show will teach you more than you can possibly imagine about how to turn your marital situation around. Even if your wife tells you to your face it's hopeless.
You know that one of the biggest struggles that I have is in having intimate conversations with my wife. I can have an intimate conversation much easier with a stranger than I can with my wife. I've always thought that its because there are no emotional ties to a stranger but there are to my wife. Any suggestions on strategies for overcoming the fear of having an intimate conversation with someone that is important to you?...
One problem that couples face in conversation is that they want to be able to talk about their problems in life - but after a while, their biggest problems are usually each other! It is important to develop interest in topics of conversation that you both like and save discussions over conflicts for specific times if possible. This may be part of the problem you are facing. You may also need to learn to resolve the conflicts so that they aren't on her mind all the time.
Beyond that, Dr. Harley has an article with his recommendations for conversation, and it was so helpful to me that I suggest that you read and reread it, and in fact review it daily until you have the skills mastered.
The Friends and Enemies of Good ConversationDr. Harley lists four "friends" of good conversation to practice, and four "enemies" of good conversation to avoid. (This material has been slightly updated in the latest revision of His Needs, Her Needs.) If you can spend fifteen hours a week with your wife practicing these, you will become a fantastic conversation partner for her, and save your marriage.
The four friends of good conversation are:
* (Content) Using conversation to investigate, inform, and understand your spouse.
* (Content) Developing interest in each other's favorite topics of conversation
* (Etiquette) Balancing the conversation (Each of you should spend about equal time talking)
* (Etiquette) Giving each other your undivided attention (look at each other while talking - don't be reading the newspaper, watching sports or other TV, or reading or sending messages on your phone or computer.)
The four enemies of good conversation are:
* Making selfish demands (using conversation to try to get your way at your spouse's expense - when they are not enthusiastic about what it is you are wanting to be done)
* Using conversation to force agreement to your way of thinking (disrespectful judgments)
* Using conversation to punish your spouse (angry outbursts)
* Dwelling on mistakes of the past or present
If you incorporate any of those "enemies" into the conversation, it will ruin it for your wife. Meanwhile, the friends are what will make it enjoyable for both of you. Pay special attention to the need to find topics you both like to talk about. It needs to be enjoyable for you so that you will be motivated to participate. It will get easier as you discover new and better topics together.
One thing my wife and I like to talk about is current events. I've seen other people suggest talking about movies or shows you both like, books, projects you want to do together. The possibilities really are endless. Whatever gets you excited and animated.
Dr. Harley has said that when he brings a man into his office that is not a great conversationalist, he is usually able to get him to talk quite energetically when he starts asking him about his job or whatever is interesting to him. There is a difference between introverted and extroverted people, but if you can get them on the right topic and make sure you don't interrupt them, introverts actually like to talk quite a bit. I should know - my wife is an introvert and I had to learn how to have great conversation with her.
markos, thank you for reminding me about the friends of good conversation. I have read these in the past but I like your idea of focusing on this daily until it becomes habit...I will start to do this...
markos, thank you for reminding me about the friends of good conversation. I have read these in the past but I like your idea of focusing on this daily until it becomes habit...I will start to do this...
Here's something that really impressed me: in 2010 my wife and I started here at Marriage Builders and paid for a few sessions with Steve Harley (Dr. Harley's son, and an accomplished marriage counselor as well). I asked Steve specifically about conversation - were there any good books he recommend that I read to develop my conversation skills. Steve didn't recommend any books. Instead, he told me to just focus on the friends and enemies of good conversation.
I was a little bit frustrated at the time, but in retrospect, he was right! Those tips are the recipe for making good conversation with your wife.
Now we are getting somewhere. Good job dividejim. Its not easy to be a conversationalist. In fact its quite difficult at first. Its tough when you don't feel that much of what your thinking about to talk about may or not be a safe topic. Especially if your fearing your wifes emotional reactions. But by now I'm sure you know her well enough to understand what topics boil her over and. Possibly even some topics that put a smile on her face. Ask her open ended questions about herself. Women LOVE to talk about themselves. Lift her up during those conversations. Take interest in her favorite topics. Research on it if ya need to so you can contribute.
That's a GREAT step forward. Steer clear of negative undertones and topics that will reignite her negatvie feelings. Lead her and steer the conversations in positive light. Add in some situational humor when ever you can. Compliment her. Notice when she's done her hair or things of similar nature. It will feel contrived at first but eventually it will come naturally.
MNG
All of our conversations are focused on mistakes that I've made and how I'm going to repent of those mistakes and change myself. I don't think that we've had a happy, fun, interesting conversation in months. The mood gets so heavy when we start to talk and its typically my wife that initiates the talking because I want to run for the door when the topic of talking intimately comes up. I also seem to live in a reactionary mode rather than a leadership mode. I'm typically in a defensive position and not really taking any proactive steps to work through our situation. I'm a chicken! I really do fear that things will spiral out of control and turn ugly whenever we start to talk about our stuff. Have any of you felt the same way about facing the truth? If so, what helped you to overcome those feelings?
My wife has angry outbursts frequently now and has over the years.
Jim, angry outbursts are a big problem in marriage. Dr. Harley usually doesn't recommend that men separate over their wife's angry outbursts, but if the genders were reversed, he would actually go so far as to recommend that a wife separate from her husband until he agrees to eliminate his angry outbursts.
I would suggest that you need to complain to your wife about her angry outbursts. Tell her that you want to address her complaints, but you don't want either one of you to be punished for mistakes, and you don't want either one of you to be subjected to angry outbursts. In the future, when she becomes angry toward you, I would end the conversation and come back to her after she has calmed down.
Angry outbursts make it impossible to solve problems in marriage. From the book Love Busters you'll learn that they erode the love you feel for one another. You'll also learn that they can be completely eliminated. I should know - I had to eliminate my angry outbursts in order to have a good marriage. And my wife followed through on that separation advice that Dr. Harley gives wives in such a situation - I spent some time living in a hotel due to my angry outbursts. I am glad she adopted that no tolerance policy, though, because our marriage is so much better!
We've discussed this together but my wife feels that she needs to express her anger because that is honest.
Honesty is this: "I don't like it when you X. I would like it if you would Y." An angry outburst is more than honesty: it is punishment.
We've talked about how the angry outbursts are a result of me not being open
This is not correct. An angry outburst is a person's own choice. It is one possible way to respond to frustration. She (and you, if necessary) need to learn a different response. This is both an instinct and a habit that needs to be overcome.
and I believe that but it doesn't mean that I can just get over my insecurities overnight.
Can you be specific about what you are insecure about?
When my wife has an angry outburst, I freeze up. I don't know what to say, I just go silent.
That is very understandable. Nobody reacts well to an angry outburst. It's best not to say anything - there's nothing you can say, because a person who is having an angry outburst is experiencing temporary insanity. They can't be reasoned with. That is why it's best to end the conversation as soon as possible.
All of our conversations are focused on mistakes that I've made and how I'm going to repent of those mistakes and change myself.
Jim, don't keep talking about mistakes over and over again with her. Notice that one of the enemies of good conversation is "dwelling on mistakes of the past or present." This enemy is ruining conversation for both of you.
When she has a complaint, you need to get the information from her as to what you did that bothered her or what she would like you to do, and then move on to another topic. If she brings up a mistake of the past, decline to discuss it with her. Let her know that you don't want to dwell on either of your mistakes and that you want to hear and address her complaints but that you don't want either of you to be punished for your mistakes.
Of course, make sure that the mistakes of the past are truly mistakes of the PAST. For example, follow the policy of joint agreement - never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your wife. Don't do things that she is unenthusiastic about, and if she lets you know that she's not enthusiastic about something you DID do, apologize to her, assure her that you don't want to do anything she's not enthusiastic about, and try to undo the mistake as much as possible. (For example, if you bought a car without talking to her, return the car.)
Jim, follow Dr. Harley's Policy of Undivided Attention: take your wife out for fifteen hours a week and don't talk about your complaints about each other during that time.
The Policy of Undivided AttentionThe Critical Importance of Undivided Attention
The angry outbursts are a tool that my wife uses in order to get me to open up. I will tend to not say anything until things escalate to the point where I can't hold it in any longer. what usually happens is that we will go for a few days with me not really saying much and holding things in. My wife will start to get frustrated and eventually will have an angry outburst. Once it escalates to a certain point, I will typically open up and say what I'm thinking. Once we get through the angry outburst, things calm down again and then we're back in the same cycle. I believe that my problem is that I am afraid of the angry outbursts and the last thing that I want to do is to say something that is very personal to me and to have it thrown back at me in anger. This has happened so often that I believe that this is my reason for not really wanting to talk intimately. If I initiate the talking, we can typically get through a difficult discussion without any sort of angry outbursts. If my wife has to initiate the discussion then it typically does lead to an angry outburst. I think that I have just convinced myself that if I bring anything up that is difficult or hurtful to discuss that it will automatically lead to an angry outburst and I avoid these situations like the plague. I used to fight my wife tooth and nail but then I realized that I didn't have to choose to use anger so i stopped that a long time ago. My wife feels that she can't get me to open up unless she gets angry and takes me to the edge. Its a really difficult thing for me and if I can find a way to deal with my wife's anger, I think that things will really improve.
What does she mean by "open up"? What things are you holding in?
It's important to complain to your wife about the angry outbursts. Let her know that you don't want either of you to be punished for your mistakes or be subjected to angry outbursts from the other. Then, stop hanging around when she has an angry outburst at you. Open up about this.
Don't try to deal with your wife's anger. Instead, stop tolerating it. She will have to learn to stop having angry outbursts if she wants to talk with you about a problem.
The book Love Busters and the radio show both have a lot of material your wife can use to learn to eliminate angry outbursts. Question: have you listened to the radio show yet? (I mentioned it in a post above, and I am serious that this is the best support tool a husband can get to rebuild his marriage. Sit in class with Dr. Harley every day!)
Has your wife replied to the article you emailed to her, yet?
No, my wife has not responded to my email yet.
As far as what am I holding in; I am just not feeling like I'm in a safe environment so I hesitate to speak. I'm just fearful of the anger so I clam up. When she does get angry, I clam up even more until she escalates it to a point that I have to say something.
I do listen to the radio program almost every day. I've listened off and on now for a few years but pretty much every day for the last few weeks. I agree, the radio show is amazing.
No, my wife has not responded to my email yet.
As far as what am I holding in; I am just not feeling like I'm in a safe environment so I hesitate to speak.
To speak about what?
I hesitate to speak about subjects that are intimate to us. Errors that I have made, my weaknesses, things that I know bother her.
When your conversation escelates to the point of anger or better yet before it does and you hear your wifes tone change into contempt. As soon as you feel anxiety kick in that's your que to tell your wife. "Honey, listen. Your tone of voice is giving me anxiety. I don't feel safe in this conversation anylonger and feel it will only escelate. If you would like to continue this conversation please come talk to me when you have calmed down."
Then disengage and take a break or go for a walk or something. Don't engage with her when it escelates. You need a chance for the adrenaline to leave your body so you can gain your cognitive thinking back.
MNG
dividejim,
A few things to think about, did your W keep in touch through the years with old boy friends? I assume you are correct about no affair, but getting serious with an old boyfriend is so common that it has to be considered.
Also are there any males at your church she is close to, I know many feel church is a safe place, but there always seems to be floating males hanging around.
God Bless
Gamma
I hesitate to speak about subjects that are intimate to us. Errors that I have made, my weaknesses, things that I know bother her.
Then don't
Talk about other things. I have made several suggestions.
MNG
Gamma, I've kept very close tabs on things and I see nothing that would lead me to believe that she is talking to anyone (old boyfriend, neighbor, church members) but me about our marriage.
I hesitate to speak about subjects that are intimate to us. Errors that I have made, my weaknesses, things that I know bother her.
What kinds of errors and weaknesses? Are these things that are an issue in the present?
As an example, let's say you view pornography and it bothers her. The solution is to stop viewing pornography. There's not much to talk about other than to do it.
These are mistakes that I've made primarily over the past few years. One of the biggest ones was taking a job with a company that I really wanted to work for and agreeing to a 50% paycut in return with the promise of bonuses that would leave me at the same level I was when I left the old company. I pretty much made a unilateral decision to take the job and discussed it with my wife but not in the depth that I would now that I know better. I have tended to not be totally honest with my wife. I don't out and out lie but I also don't always share everything and give total context so that she has the same information that I do. This has created a huge trust issue between us and we are struggling financially now because of my decision which means that this issue is before us every day of our lives.
I believe that the weaknesses that I have are as follows:
1) Independent behavior
2) Honesty
3) Confronting and facing problems
Dividejim,
You have gotten outstanding advice on this thread. Kudos to all have chimed in. Those who post here give better advice than you will find by paying for most marriage counselors.
My two cents:
1) The angry outbursts and honesty are a reciprocal problem. They feed each other. If you can be radically honest and she can stop her AO's then the problem will be solved. But both of you have to commit, and it takes someone to start. That's you. This issue is one where counseling from the Harley's would help. Under no circumstances should you lie or lie by omission, and she must end her angry outbursts. They are death to a marriage.
2) The concepts of conversation and undivided attention that Marcos has introduced here go hand in hand. Undivided Attention is the spirit (drink) that frees up the conversation. In other words, spend time together doing things that are fun and that take you out of the home environment. I can't stress this enough. If your wife will agree, go on a vacation. Get away for a solid 7 to 10 days. I know money is tight, but use credit or ask a parent or a rich uncle to help you out financially since it could save your marriage. Also schedule dates each week. Don't just do a movie. Do dinner and a movie so that there is room for conversation.
3) Romance her. Shower her with caring gifts as you try and win her affections. This will not come fast. It will take time. To get an idea of the struggle you are in, watch the movie Fireproof. The husband's attempts to recover his marriage in that film show remarkable fortitude and perseverance, and that is what it is going to require.
4) Look for a new job to boost your income. Even if it takes time, seeing you working toward that goal should register with your wife that you are respecting her feelings about this and you are looking to be a better provider.
Okay, I just had a lengthy discussion with my wife and was told to "...take my marriage builders crap and shove it".
I need some help understanding Dr. Harley's angry outburst topic. The discussion that I had with my wife centered around anger and the destruction that it causes in a relationship. Her point to me is that if I've done something terribly wrong that hurt her that she is going to get angry. Its a natural consequence of my actions. Why should I expect her to not get angry. This is where I'm confused; is being angry at someone for hurt that they have caused the same as having an angry outburst? It seems to me that they're different but I'm not really putting 2 an 2 together here. It seems to me that if I expect my wife not to get angry with me even though I deserve it that I'm just exercising control over her and now allowing her to feel what she needs to feel. Help me out here!
. Her point to me is that if I've done something terribly wrong that hurt her that she is going to get angry.
Anger makes it impossible to resolve the problem so getting angry doesn't get the job done. The "cause" of her angry outburst is HER.
She chooses that destructive behavior and it is up to you to NOT tolerate it anymore.
Not only should you not tolerate it, but you certainly should not reward her for it. There should never be a payoff for her tyrant act.
MelodyLane/others, I'm really struggling with the angry outburst thing. If I had an affair and my wife found out about it, she is going to be angry. That is a natural reaction to a horrible situation. You're suggesting that she is suppose to stifle/bury her anger and not react out of anger but instead react in some other way. Isn't that the same thing as ignoring the situation or sweeping it under the rug? If that is the case then why do we even have the emotion of anger? Its a real emotion and in my situation, I have a huge problem with trying to control everything. Wouldn't my suggesting to my wife that she cannot be angry, ever be a huge control issue? I really do see how anger destroys things but there must be a place for anger as well or it wouldn't exist as a real emotion.
Bottom line is that you're telling me that I have to ask my wife to not get angry even if I've done something that is so troubling and upsetting to her that it causes feelings of anger. That seems extremely controlling to me and I don't know how I can do that. And, by the way, I have asked her not to be angry and believe me there is nothing more that I would like than for her to not get angry with me but aren't there situations where its a natural consequence of what you've done and you should expect that someone will be angry with you?
Bottom line is that you're telling me that I have to ask my wife to not get angry even if I've done something that is so troubling and upsetting to her that it causes feelings of anger. That seems extremely controlling to me and I don't know how I can do that. And, by the way, I have asked her not to be angry and believe me there is nothing more that I would like than for her to not get angry with me but aren't there situations where its a natural consequence of what you've done and you should expect that someone will be angry with you?
It is completely normal to feel upset. This is healthy. Nobody is suggesting otherwise. However the way that you demonstrate that feeling and how you resolve the problem are the issue here.
When you were a two year old child and felt frustrated you had a tantrum. Hopefully you were not rewarded.
By the time you were a teenager, that should have morphed into sulking. Still immature but less so.
As an adult you should have learned to say 'I am feeling upset because of xyz'. Let's discuss it when I feel calmer and negotiate a way that works for both of us that means this does not happen again.
Angry outbursts are completely unacceptable in an adult at any time. Stop having them and she should stop too.
MelodyLane/others, I'm really struggling with the angry outburst thing. If I had an affair and my wife found out about it, she is going to be angry. That is a natural reaction to a horrible situation.
No, not really. When I first found out about my wife's affair, I was terribly upset and hurt, but I didn't react in an angry outburst. Your wife has chosen to allow frustration, even minor frustration, to manifest itself as anger. You have been conditioned into accepting this as normal. Lots of people don't get angry every time they are frustrated. Anger management is all about conditioning yourself into breaking this connection between frustration and anger. We have some prime examples right here of people who have done this. Dr. Harley is one. So is Markos. For your part, you need to realize that there is no such thing as excusable angry outbursts in marriage.
Bottom line is that you're telling me that I have to ask my wife to not get angry even if I've done something that is so troubling and upsetting to her that it causes feelings of anger. That seems extremely controlling to me and I don't know how I can do that. And, by the way, I have asked her not to be angry and believe me there is nothing more that I would like than for her to not get angry with me but aren't there situations where its a natural consequence of what you've done and you should expect that someone will be angry with you?
Angry outbursts are an instinctive and habitual response to frustration. But for those of us in good marriages, we have learned to not punish our spouses for their mistakes. My wife and I do sometimes do things that make each other feel frustrated. But instead of punishing each other (which is what an angry outburst is), the one who is bothered by the other communicates that fact, and the other stops the behavior and takes steps to make sure it will never happen again.
Anger is a normal reaction, but having an angry outburst is not a healthy or good way to react to frustration. The problem with having an angry outburst is that it doesn't ever solve the problem.
I understand your wife's anger. Sure, and I had a tremendous amount of anger toward my H a few months into our recovery. It threatened to consume me and destroy our chance at recovery. In order to actually create a better marriage, I HAD to learn to control my anger and stop it in its tracks.
Anger is an emotion that is instinctive in a lot of us, but just because something is instinctive doesn't mean it's a GOOD thing. What Dr. Harley recommends for anger is to learn how to calm down. Calming down trains the brain to respond to frustrating situations calmly, which helps us solve the problems at hand more effectively.
Keep respectfully complaining about her anger and disengaging from the discussion when it becomes emotional. That's what my H had to do with me for a while. He was always respectful about it and even said it in a loving manner, but he would let me know when the discussion was becoming unpleasant. Then I had a choice. I could keep on being angry and drive away my H or I could take a break, calm down, and actually solve the problem.
Okay, I just had a lengthy discussion with my wife and was told to "...take my marriage builders crap and shove it".
I would react to that by continuing to practice Marriage Builders without using the name. For example, I would continue to complain about her angry outbursts. Like this:
"I don't want either of us to punish the other for our mistakes."
"Take your Marriage Builders crap and shove it!"
"Okay, but I don't want either of us to be subjected to angry outbursts by the other."
"Shut up you stupid jerk. You have been so horrible to me that you deserve to hear me out. Now, I want you to know ---"
And at this point you leave. She hollers after you:
"Get back here - I'm not done with what I have to say."
You let her know you'll be happy to listen to her when she can talk to you without having an angry outburst, and you continue on your way out.
Jim, there's nothing wrong with feeling frustrated about frustrating things. However, how you respond, you are responsible for. My wife and I used to have yelling, screaming matches and I would throw things and punch the walls. Behaving like this is not acceptable anywhere. So why would it be okay at home? If I yelled at my boss or punched a wall at work, I would get fired. Or if I did that at a friend's house, my friendship would be terminated quickly.
It's time for you to start being honest and stop fearing the response you'll get. It's also okay to tell your wife that you will not tolerate being yelled at. When I stopped responding angrily at my wife, validating her feelings, but also telling her "I will not continue this discussion until you stop raising your voice and cussing at me" it got so much better.
Did it happen immediately? No. But it didn't take very long (as long as I was role modeling what I was talking about) before she stopped screaming, yelling, and cussing. At this point, it's been years since we've raised our voices at each other or said something disrespectful.
I need some help understanding Dr. Harley's angry outburst topic. The discussion that I had with my wife centered around anger and the destruction that it causes in a relationship. Her point to me is that if I've done something terribly wrong that hurt her that she is going to get angry. Its a natural consequence of my actions. Why should I expect her to not get angry. This is where I'm confused; is being angry at someone for hurt that they have caused the same as having an angry outburst? It seems to me that they're different but I'm not really putting 2 an 2 together here. It seems to me that if I expect my wife not to get angry with me even though I deserve it that I'm just exercising control over her and now allowing her to feel what she needs to feel. Help me out here!
If you do something that upsets your wife, you should of course apologize for it and change your behavior so that it doesn't happen again.
Your job change is a prime example. Your message to her about that should stay on the point that you were wrong to make the change without her enthusiastic approval, and that you feel it was a terrible mistake and you know that you've offended her greatly. You should accompany that by working earnestly EVERY DAY to get into a new job situation that meets with her enthusiastic approval. You should also accompany it by, from now on, running all of your decisions by her during the consideration phase and rejecting any option that doesn't have her enthusiastic approval.
It's imperative that you solve the problem - the specific problem of the job (which is rightly making her unhappy every day) and the more general problem of making unilateral decisions. In one of his articles, Dr. Harley tells a man "You should probably not even go so far as to brush your teeth without her enthusiastic consent." He is probably being a little bit hyperbolic - but maybe only slightly!
We can rightly emphasize with your wife in her situation. It is as if she is strapped to you and cannot get away and you are taking her all kinds of places she does not want to go. She is a bit like a prisoner or someone tied to the front of a runaway locomotive driven by an engineer who is not listening to her. I can understand why this problem is tearing her apart, and let me assure you (and her) that we are on her side in this! This problem needs to be resolved ASAP or it is going to make her miserable for life, and wreck your marriage as well. Dr. Harley would go so far as to tell your wife to separate from you and eventually divorce you if you do not solve this problem diligently and quickly.
That said, if she chooses to punish you, it does nothing to help the situation. It only makes the problem worse. It adds to the problems that must be solved. That is why Dr. Harley advocates eliminating angry outbursts. It doesn't help a child to throw a fit about their problems (I have six children and see fits every day! I can promise you they never help the problems my children are facing.) And it does nothing to help the problems an adult faces, either.
Your independent behavior is a terrible problem for your wife. You need to become her partner in solving it, and that means most of the effort is going to be on you to reverse the effects of your independent behavior and eliminate it from this day forward. Meanwhile, she needs to solve the problem of her angry outbursts, because they are a terrible problem for you (and for her, whether she realizes it yet or not).
You may feel like you deserve to be yelled at for your mistake in selecting a new job that hurts your wife. And perhaps you do.
But if you sit there and let her yell at you, it doesn't bring you any closer to getting a new job that she likes.
You would be better off leaving and going out job hunting.
Whether your wife likes Marriage Builders or not, it is still a bad idea for her to be angry or disrespectful toward you - even for your mistakes - and you should complain about it. (Make the complaint reciprocal: stand for the principle that neither of you should be punished for mistakes. I'm sure she has made mistakes as well and can appreciate the value of not being punished for them. In all of these principles, present them in a way that shows her what she has to gain if the two of you follow the principle.)
And, whether your wife likes Marriage Builders or not, it is still a bad idea for you to practice independent behavior. Again, you should stand for the principle that neither of you should do anything without the other's enthusiastic consent, and that you want to live by this rule and change your job and all other life circumstances, one by one, into a situation that she is enthusiastic about. You have a lot to gain by making sure all of your decisions are made with her enthusiastic consent: she has wisdom to add to yours, leading to better decisions. (You can already see how much better off you would have been if you had asked her opinion on the job change.)
One of the very few exceptions that Dr. Harley makes to this policy of joint agreement is abuse: so as long as she is abusing you and having angry outbursts, I would continue to post here to get help to resolve your marital problems. Even if she is not enthusiastic about it. As long as she is going to punish you for your mistakes, you are going to need support. Anyone who is in such a situation deserves help and support. But don't wave Marriage Builders in her face. Right now she is not enthusiastic about it and doesn't see what she has to gain from it. That is likely to change when you can stop the love bank withdrawals and make a habit of making massive love bank deposits every day - her feelings toward you will change, and she will begin to see the benefit that she has realized from you following these principles.
Wow, I sure seemed to stir up the hornet's nest this morning with my comments about anger! I appreciate all of the comments that each of you have offered to me and I will think through them all and take a stand based on what I think is right. I do appreciate your support and your input. As you are all aware, this is probably the most difficult thing that I've ever had to deal with in my life and I don't want to screw it up anymore than I already have. I've never been in the habit of poking a stick at an angry bear and it seems that much of the Marriage Builder's approaches do just that; they force you to face up to life. Please bear with me as I go through this process and keep your comments coming. They are definitely helpful to me...DJ
I've never been in the habit of poking a stick at an angry bear and it seems that much of the Marriage Builder's approaches do just that; they force you to face up to life.
Your approach of conflict avoidance has made the problem worse, not better. Your marital problems can never be resolved if your wife gets angry. Have you noticed that? It resolves nothing. Taking perpetual punishment does not make your marriage better; it makes it a miserable place where problems never get solved.
Avoiding the problem of your wife's anger and acting as if it is normal has made you a miserable, unhappy man.
Many of us who are posting to you are in happy, romantic marriages TODAY because we did not tolerate the angry outbursts. We stopped the behavior that made our spouse angry but our spouses also had to stop the angry outbursts.
Did you read Markos' suggestion about finding a new job? Are you working every day on finding a job that would make you both happy?
Jim, still listening to the radio show? Did you listen yesterday?
I was going to ask today if you'd ever asked your wife to listen with you. It's one of the most helpful things my wife and I have done.
I would love to hear Dr. Harley comment directly on your situation, if you are interested in writing him. I've been helping a man in a marital situation similar to yours and would love to hear Dr. Harley address it directly.
Have you listened to any of the old archived shows? There are some great links to archived shows on this thread:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2603602
Did you get to read the link about Conflict Avoidance that I posted yesterday?
Wow, I sure seemed to stir up the hornet's nest this morning with my comments about anger!
Not at all.
Please read through my responses carefully - there's a lot of suggestions in there for you. You stand a good chance of turning this around if you will:
* Fix the problem with your job and your independent behavior
* Complain about her anger
Keep these problems on the front burner until they are solved. Your instinct will be to run away from them and put your head in the sand, but then they will only get worse.
I've got another suggestion for you, Jim. When your wife comes to you to complain about a problem, tell her you want to address the problem and ask her for her ideas about what to do. For example, the problem of your job - it is making her unhappy. What is her preferred solution? How would you feel about trying it? What other ideas does she have?
Get her involved as a partner in solving these problems with you.
Dr. Harley has a whole new book out on marital problem solving - it is called He Wins, She Wins. For now, check out the Four Guidelines to Successful Negotiaton:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3350_guide.htmlYou will also find this subject covered a lot in Love Busters. Love Busters teaches you how NOT to solve your problems. He Wins, She Wins teaches you how to solve them.
Here's a good thread on He Wins She Wins. There are some good clips in the thread also.
He Wins She Wins
Well, my wife and I discussed together how to approach my employment situation and what to do. We agreed jointly to give it a few months to see how things shape up and then make a decision as to what to do. That was positive.
Well, my wife and I discussed together how to approach my employment situation and what to do. We agreed jointly to give it a few months to see how things shape up and then make a decision as to what to do. That was positive.
That is a good first step. Do you see how important it is to address her complaints? And what about her anger? How did she behave?
Well, my wife and I discussed together how to approach my employment situation and what to do. We agreed jointly to give it a few months to see how things shape up and then make a decision as to what to do. That was positive.
Fantastic. You might also start a list of job ideas and opportunities with her. Brainstorming is an important step in negotiation. Did you read the article on four guidelines to successful negotiation?
Jim, still listening to the radio show? Did you listen yesterday?
I was going to ask today if you'd ever asked your wife to listen with you. It's one of the most helpful things my wife and I have done.
I would love to hear Dr. Harley comment directly on your situation, if you are interested in writing him. I've been helping a man in a marital situation similar to yours and would love to hear Dr. Harley address it directly.
Have you listened to any of the old archived shows? There are some great links to archived shows on this thread:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2603602Jim, why are you ignoring my questions? If you will answer the questions and follow up on the suggestions we are pointing you to, your marriage will recover very well - and possibly rapidly. We know the directions to point you to - some of us have dedicated many hundreds or thousands of hours to learning and teaching this program.
My questions aren't rhetorical.
markos, I'm not ignoring your questions; there have just been so many fired at me that I've been answering as I can. I'm working during the day and can't stay on top of this except on occasion throughout the day. I spent last night with my wife and wasn't able to read much from the forum.
Yes, I listen to the radio program every day and no I haven't yet read the guidelines to successful negotiations.
Yes, dealing with her complaints is very important. She did get angry again when I was trying to talk to her about why I have a difficult time dealing with her when she gets angry. That ended the evening on a sour note.
Markos, my wife is not currently big on marriage builders so I'm not in a place where I feel like I can ask her to listen to the radio program yet. I will when the time is right though because I think that the radio show is excellent.
As far as emailing Dr. Harley goes, I'm comfortable doing that. Maybe I can do that this weekend. Thanks for the idea...DJ
Email your questions to Joyce Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. When your email question is chosen to be answered on the radio show, you will be notified by email directing you to listen to the rebroadcast. If you would like to consider being a caller, include your telephone number. You will be called by us to explain the procedure to you. Every caller will receive a complementary book by Dr. Harley that addresses their question.
I just emailed my question/history to Joyce. I hope that I get a response. Thank you to all of you for suggesting that I do this...DJ
You know, I feel so overwhelmed that I really don't know where to start with a recovery plan. I've read so much from His Needs, Her Needs and Lovebusters that its just all in front of me overwhelming me to the point where I do nothing. Where is a good place to start?...DJ
Hi Prisca, I did read it. I also just ordered the Five Steps to Romantic Love workbook. I'll be working this alone until I can get my wife to be receptive to it. I'm a structured person and I need something that I can look to as my plan to work. I'm no good just shooting from the hip so I'm hoping that this will help...DJ
Dr. Harley has the mind of an engineer, and this program is very structured. A lot of men like it because of that.
Five Steps to Romantic Love workbook.
Do you have Lovebusters and His Needs Her Needs to go along with that?
Will your wife go out on a date with you? How much time alone are you getting together? Doing what?
How is the job situation going?
How have you been doing with Independant behavior?
I do have both His Needs/Her Needs and Lovebusters and I've read both of them. I've read His Needs/Her Needs probably 3 times now. We do go on a weekly date and have our whole marriage but I wouldn't really say that I've put much thought into them. We go to dinner and then go shopping. We haven't done anything different in a very long time.
As far as our time together, we're mostly just attempting to talk through our troubles at night. My wife usually gets very upset and goes off to bed without me. I'm not sleeping in the bedroom now. Its been about 3 months of this.
My independent behavior is still there. I'm afraid that we don't really have a lot to talk about. I usually start to talk about work and that goes nowhere. Then we talk about the problems we are having and my wife has a lot of anger that needs to come out. Its very difficult to just talk about fun things because neither of us are very happy. I'm really beginning to understand how facing your problems brings you closer.
I was raised in a family where there was never any arguing, yelling, disagreements, discussion...my dad was the king and everyone did as he said. I don't remember my parents really ever fighting with each other. They divorced after about 30 years of marriage. My dad had an affair and left my mom.
My wife was raised in a family where there was always yelling, arguing, etc. but they got things out and dealt with them. I always thought that her home was so dysfunctional but I'm finding out that mine was really the dysfunctional home. My siblings and I never really learned how to deal with difficulty and face problems. We just learned to sweep them under the rug. My wife definitely learned to face things and deal with them. I just don't like the method that she uses to deal with things. Angry outbursts and disrespectful judgments. It does make it very hard for me...DJ
I just want to throw out another face to the negative feedback loop you are living in.
My husbands style is avoidance also. I'm all about cooperation. My attempts to 'bring him out' or to educate him about the things he does/did to upset or disappoint me lead no where or worse.
We each had our side that was played out. It only takes one person to tweak things just a little to either set the negative in motion or to finally change it into a positive for the benefit of the marriage unit.
If you decide to set in motion a new action step for the benefit of your marriage you have to "be all in" and show confidence even in the face of diversity. This is because if you make that one little tweak you will likely receive resistance and teased back into an old response. For you apparently its withdrawal, victimhood, confusion, and so on.
It helps to step back and observe yourselves carefully. Think about the one thing you could do differently next time your wife goes into a shaming diatribe. Its been suggested you complain. since you already know you tend to dread these encounters or freeze when the occur---have ready a script of words to use. In fact you could write them up and bring them here for us to review with you. Act these words out in a mirror over and over to help build your confidence levels.
Personally when I would make a straight forward non-emotive complaint to my husband he would shut down. I typically did not have a AO. He had been used to independent behavior and grew up in a family that reinforced this 'self made man' or 'strong silent type' approach to living. So addressing a complaint of mine could be interpreted as a threat to his IB.
But his shutting down reinforced feelings of hopelessness. Sometimes my husband would sense these feelings and inquire. But here is the twist: He'd inquire about how I was feeling if he sensed I was upset about something, I'd poor my heart out and he'd listen as a trusted doctor listens to his patients complaints. I would trust he cared but my complaints were dismissed if they were a threat to his IB. He'd withdrawal for these reasons. I consider this stealth emotional abuse. Look at yourself. Are you protecting your IB way of life?
These days I am less gullible. There is a time and a place to complain. When I am stirred up and he asks me 'what's wrong' I remind him this form of interaction seems to trigger poor outcomes. He is only recently learning to follow POJA. Its only safe for me to express how I feel with this agreement in force.
Graceful, there are some things that I've done independently that have really hurt my wife. I was raised similar to your husband as well; to be independent. I now realize the difficulty that I've caused and the trust that I've eroded over the years. My wife has asked me to talk to her about the things that I've done. Being open about these things is part of the repentance process and I'm really struggling with what to say. We've talked about each "event" to the point where I understand what I've done and I've apologized profusely but she still needs me to talk about these things I've told her that I'm not really sure what more I can say and that never goes over well. Can you shed any insight into what it is that she's looking for from me? I really am stuck and not sure how to move forward.
I'm at work now but I write you back later.
I just emailed my question/history to Joyce. I hope that I get a response. Thank you to all of you for suggesting that I do this...DJ
Have you heard back from the Harleys? They usually respond in a couple of days. If you haven't heard from them email them again and notify the MODS.
I did get a response and was asked to consider being a caller. I've kind of been on the fence and not sure about it at this point so I haven't called to speak with Joyce or whoever takes those calls.
I did get a response and was asked to consider being a caller. I've kind of been on the fence and not sure about it at this point so I haven't called to speak with Joyce or whoever takes those calls.
I've been on the show twice. Go ahead and give her a call back. You will speak to Joyce directly. You're not committed to anything at that point and she is very knowledgeable and friendly. You won't regret talking to Dr Harley directly. You don't even have to use your real name if you don't want to.
I did get a response and was asked to consider being a caller. I've kind of been on the fence and not sure about it at this point so I haven't called to speak with Joyce or whoever takes those calls.
I've been on the show twice. Go ahead and give her a call back. You will speak to Joyce directly. You're not committed to anything at that point and she is very knowledgeable and friendly. You won't regret talking to Dr Harley directly. You don't even have to use your real name if you don't want to.
I totally agree.
The Harleys are so easy to talk to and you don't even realize you're on the radio.
Would you like me to post some clips so you can hear how it sounds? Or just hit the Listen Now button.
Brainhurts, I listen to the radio program every day so I'm very familiar with how they speak with callers. You're motivating me to make the call based on your comments...I'll think on this over the weekend and decide on Monday morning...thanks so much...DJ
My independent behavior is still there.
You can't really expect any improvement in your marriage until you stop this, and the other Love Busters.
Then we talk about the problems we are having and my wife has a lot of anger that needs to come out.
Anger doesn't need to "come out." That is a flawed therapeutic approach. Love Busters explains how to eliminate angry outbursts, as well as how to negotiate your problems without having angry outbursts. You might also look into getting the book He Wins, She Wins, which expands on the material in Love Busters to focus on negotiation.
Of course, you should stop the independent behavior, because that will help her feelings immensely right there! She will have a lot less to be angry about. Most fights in marriage are about somebody's independent behavior. There are no excuses for angry outbursts, but there are reasons, and independent behavior is usually at the top of the list.
The best approach to Independent Behavior is to knock it off.
I did get a response and was asked to consider being a caller. I've kind of been on the fence and not sure about it at this point so I haven't called to speak with Joyce or whoever takes those calls.
I've been on the show twice. Go ahead and give her a call back. You will speak to Joyce directly. You're not committed to anything at that point and she is very knowledgeable and friendly. You won't regret talking to Dr Harley directly. You don't even have to use your real name if you don't want to.
Tell her that BrainHurts, FightTheFight, and markos sent you.
Graceful, there are some things that I've done independently that have really hurt my wife. I was raised similar to your husband as well; to be independent. I now realize the difficulty that I've caused and the trust that I've eroded over the years. My wife has asked me to talk to her about the things that I've done. Being open about these things is part of the repentance process and I'm really struggling with what to say. We've talked about each "event" to the point where I understand what I've done and I've apologized profusely but she still needs me to talk about these things I've told her that I'm not really sure what more I can say and that never goes over well. Can you shed any insight into what it is that she's looking for from me? I really am stuck and not sure how to move forward.
She is probably looking for your assurance that it will not happen again.
If you spend months or years "working on" your independent behavior instead of actually stopping it, and if you don't hold to the principled approach that you want to avoid independent behavior entirely because it hurts your wife, she will never feel better and will probably want to talk about it forever.
Here's some information from Dr. Harley about what to do about your wife's complaints:
The correct way for your husband to respond to your complaint is to express an understanding of the problem, apologize for his role in the problem, and then introduce a proactive plan to solve the problem in the future. While discussion of that plan may include information as to what motivates him to do something that bothers you, it should be in the context of a solution, and not as a defense.
So with these tactics in mind, lets imagine a conflict, and how both of you should and shouldn't respond.
Your husband is watching TV and the children are running around the house screaming. He orders the children to play outside. You are upset that he didn't discuss the problem of the children's behavior with you before he made his pronouncement.
He violated the POJA by making a decision that didn't take your feelings into account. Most arguments in marriage are initiated by such independent behavior, and I'm certain that your arguments are no exception.
So you want to bring to his attention the fact that he did something that bothered you. From the Marriage Builders point of view, he made a Love Bank withdrawal.
The correct way for you to introduce the problem is to express it in cause-effect terms. He ordered the children out of the house without your enthusiastic agreement, and the effect of that order was for you to feel bad.
"Ordering the children out of the house made me feel bad," is probably the most straightforward way to express your complaint without being demanding, disrespectful or angry.
Once the problem is introduced, the ball is in your husband's court, and he should practice the correct response whenever you have a complaint. First, he should acknowledge your complaint, apologize for doing something that made you feel bad, and inquire as to why it would have made you feel bad.
"I can understand why you would be upset with me. I didn't ask you how you'd feel about my solution to the problem. Next time, I'll try to remember to ask you how you'd feel about a decision before I implement it. And I won't do anything until we agree enthusiastically."
If he can't honestly make that statement because he really can't understand why you would have been upset, he should continue to ask you sincere questions to help him come to that understanding. And that's where any defensive reaction on his part would ruin everything.
Granted, that response may seem unnatural to you right now, but with practice, it will become second nature to both of you. And this approach to the problems you face will communicate your care for each other.
So in summary, when your husband does something that bothers you, you should tell him that what he did bothered you, without being demanding, disrespectful or angry. Then, he should apologize, express his understanding of your reaction, and offer to avoid that mistake in the future.
What should your husband do the next time the children are running and screaming? He knows what he shouldn't do, order them out of the house, because that would bother you. But what should he do. That's a decision that both of you should make together. And since that exact situation is likely to repeat itself many times in the future, there's no time like the present to decide how to handle it.
In the beginning of this post, I said there were two general steps in marital problem-solving. The first is to introduce the problem without demands, disrespect, or anger. And the second is to address the problem with mutual respect and creativity, solving it with enthusiastic agreement.
I'm sure that you have a host of unsolved problems to address, and sometimes the sheer number of them can lead to feeling overwhelmed. But each problem that you tackle the right way is one less cause of Love Bank withdrawals. So when a complaint is made, after the expression of understanding and the apology, get right to work searching for a solution that will deal effectively with the problem when it comes up again in the future
(The original is here:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1967144#Post1967144)
Brainhurts, I listen to the radio program every day so I'm very familiar with how they speak with callers. You're motivating me to make the call based on your comments...I'll think on this over the weekend and decide on Monday morning...thanks so much...DJ
Glad to hear it, friend.
Like markos said
Tell her BrainHurts, FightTheFight and markos sent you there.
Help her know the new rules YOU will be following in order to improve yourself and your marriage.
POJA--you are going to close the loop holes on IB.
YOU are going to practice win/win negotiations with her.
If a conversation is spiraling out of control, you are going to XYZ ie "I'm going to pull weeds in the garden" "I'm going to take a shower and come back in 30 minutes when we are both feeling calm."
When she points out a mistake you have made you are going to thank her. You are going to repeat what she has said and check in with her to make sure you understand her feelings. ie "When XYZ happens you feel unappreciated and invalidated." Then make sure you know what you need to do or not do in the future. IB can drain your love bank fast.
At this point, much like myself after over three decades of IB, its likely her normal diffuse emotional pain level that is getting her down and hard for her to classify and simply state to you what it is that is so awful in a succinct fashion and get her point across to you. Thus she is blasting away.
Yes, IB makes you feel you are constantly being blasted and undermined. She's now developed this horrible AO habit in defense of your IB.
So the obvious answer as others have pointed out is to stop the IB madness. Its a really tough habit to break. My Dad grew up on a homestead in the bleak prairie country of Eastern Montana. HE lived his life out as a IBer. HE recently died while sitting in his old duck taped together recliner. He rarely talked. My parents had been mostly withdrawn from one another for years or else bickering about stupid stuff. When they celebrated their 60th anniversary, people asked my Dad his secret. He'd mubble--"I keep everything to myself" I was sorry to witness my parents living out their elder years this way. Freaked me out when I noted the same pattern was coming to fruition in my own marriage!
So Markos, I'm going to be on the radio show next week. Joyce was very gracious and I'm looking forward to speaking with them. I am a little apprehensive about discussing such private things on something that can be heard by many people. I'll let you know how it goes...DJ
So Markos, I'm going to be on the radio show next week. Joyce was very gracious and I'm looking forward to speaking with them. I am a little apprehensive about discussing such private things on something that can be heard by many people. I'll let you know how it goes...DJ
Good for you, DivideJim!!
I have been on the radio show a few times, and I am always impressed by how compassionate and empathetic Dr. Harley and Joyce are. And Dr. H has an amazing way of getting to the meat of the matter.
I am sure you will find it inspirational.
So, I've discussed the topic of anger with my wife in great detail and we are at a stalemate on the topic. Because of the neglect that I've done to my wife over the past 30 years, she has a lot of anger. She feels that she needs to express that anger and that this is an honest expression of her feelings and doesn't understand why this is bad in a marriage. I can explain why its bad because when the anger is pointed at me, I don't want anything to do with her and want to just get away from the anger. I can see how this destroys any love that you have for the other person. I think that my wife has some good points about anger being honest and that she needs to communicate that anger to me and not hide it. How do I deal with this?...DJ
The problem with anger, no matter how honest it is or how we justify it, is that it's a love buster.
It's one thing to say that when you XXXX, that really bothers me. It's another thing to keep bringing it up and being angry about it.
She needs to be honest without being angry.
I understand where she's coming from. I also had a lot of anger after my H's affair and his neglect of my ENs over the years. I had a lot of angry outbursts. No matter that my H believed he "deserved" them, they were still a love buster. And each one withdrew love units from his love bank for me, even though he kind of "got" why I was angry.
Neither of us has had an angry outburst, for any reason, in a couple of years. We each feel so much safer with each other.
Have you stopped your independent behavior? Are you putting your wife first by always practicing the POJA?
LWFH, what did your husband do that influenced you to not need to express any anger? I think that in my case its probably my independent behavior that is at the root of the anger problem. I just wondered what made it so that you didn't feel the need to get angry anymore...DJ
My H's independent behavior was the root of many of our problems throughout our marriage. The best thing he ever did for us was to start putting me first and involving me in every decision, in every room of his life.
But I had to learn to control my own anger. There wasn't much my H could do for me about that. If I started to talk about old hurts, he would tell me that was unpleasant and that he didn't want to talk about the mistakes of the past. I guess he repeated that quite a lot the first year.
Once I refrained from talking about the past, it was easier to avoid the anger. But the best thing was to avoid ever dwelling on the mistakes in my own mind. And the way to do that was to build a much better present.
Once the present is better, the resentment over the past mistakes fades away.
There were a few times my H told me, always gently, that he was sorry he had hurt me and that my anger was hurting him and to please stop being angry. If I did not stop, then he was to tell me that he needed to leave the room until I calmed down. Neither spouse should tolerate the anger of the other.
I used the worksheet "Friends and Enemies of Good Conversation" from the Five Steps workbook to help me control what I brought up in conversation. I worked on this with my coach in the Online Program.
My wife has expressed to me that she has so much resentment and anger at some of my independent behavior that she has to get that out somehow. That makes sense to me. I've talked to her about being able to be angry but not to have angry outbursts but I'm not sure that is possible. She told me that expecting that would be like if she went and charged $10,000 to the credit card without telling me and then tied my hands behind my back and taped my mouth shut and then told me. That is how it feels to her. She feels that I'm trying to control her reaction to my independent behavior. I'm not sure that I understand how to reconcile that because what she says does make sense...DJ
But the best way to recompense your wife for your previous independent behavior is to change the present and make it much much better. In time, if you continue to put her first by using the POJA and PORH, she would begin to trust that you have her back.
The best way to control one's anger is to learn to relax in the face of frustration. She is using anger to punish you and that's not helpful for restoring your marriage. Sure, it's understandable that your wife wants to act out in anger. But it's not moving the marriage forward. It's hurting you, and it's turning her into someone you dread being with. It's also probably turning her into someone she doesn't like either.
Don't argue with her about her anger. Tell her that you are sorry you hurt her and that you are going to put her first for the rest of your life. Then tell her that her anger is hurting you. Then calmly leave the room if she continues raging at you and talking about it.
Is she willing to move forward on the marriage and build it something much much better with you?
My husband was an entrenched IB-er. A easy yet tough habit to break.
I spent so much time writing about how I felt in a journal. I'd poor out my feelings. After awhile these writing were like a prayer method as I appreciated how helpless I was to change him or another person.
But this action helped me control me. It was my outlet. This form of prayer was my outlet. Every morning before I did anything I'd start to write about anything. This also connected me to myself and my own heart and my sense of creativity. I believe this connection to my own creativity is direct from my creator. I believe all this 'work' has helped me stop the cycle of getting upset that lead to AO with my husband over his IB.