Hi everyone
Im new to this forum and would love to get some help regarding my situation.
Have been married with no problems for 10 years, Have 4 beautiful boys and was getting on with life until husband destroyed it all by having an affair. We are still together and the affair was stopped as soon as i discovered it but the total devastation and after effects of the affair are ongoing daily.
Here is our story.
I was 18 and he was 19 when we got married, we were both eachothers firsts in every sense and despite having 4 kids and being bogged down with the chaos that a big family brings I can honestly say we were happy.
Then after 10 years of total trust and care I was shocked to discover my husband was having an affair, I cant explain how I knew but I just did, he was acting cruel towards me (something he has never ever done before) and I have always beleived that instincts are there for an essential reason so when my instincts told me to start snooping on his internet activity I did and discovered that he had been googling hotels and activities that i knew he had no intention of doing with me (like bowiling and eating out). So immediately I confronted him and he immediately confessed all. He had been having an affair with a coworker for the past 2 months, they had slept together twice and he was planning to leave me in January because he resented me because he couldnt go out and play football with his friends when i had a newborn baby (baby number 4) and needed his help around the house etc. Pathetic right? but being a mum I swallowed that one and just set off trying to sort out the devastation he had just unleashed on me. First I had a total meltdown of crying screaming and basically didnt eat or drink anything for days, second I asked him if he wanted the other woman, he immediately said no and ended things with her, then I asked him if he was prepared for the immense amount of hard work it was going to take to repair the damage he said yes, he never apologised, grovelled or anything like that, no tears no remorse as if what he did was a blip nothing more.
Its been a year since the affair but the next few things I remember are the things that will haunt me for ever.
In order for me to escape the immense pain i was in i concentrated on helping him deal with his shame and his thoughts, I sat there for days hearing every single devastating detail of the affair, I sat there as his friend and not his wife and I listened to all his insecurities about sleeping with the other woman as he has not had previous experience a part from me, i sat there and listened as he described where he touched her and how he kissed her neck and if his performance was any good etc. I just listened and i just listened and just listened. I really wish i hadnt but I did. Now im left with graphic images and its devastating.
Once this initial phase was over I became obsessed with discovering who this other woman was (i dont mean who in the sense of her name appearance etc cause I knew who she was but i mean in the sense of her character). I discovered that she knew he was married and didnt care, I dicovered that she was trying to ruin his carreer by telling everyone where they worked what they had done (my husband called in sick to look after me when i discovered the affair and was in a catatonic state and she got him in trouble with work by telling people he was not ill he was looking after me cause they had been having an affair and i discovered it this led to him having to go through a disciplinary procedure with work that led to him not having a full paycheck which added insult to injury as our kids missed out on xmas in every sense). I was so angry with her for not only sleeping with my husband but also for her actions afterwards so I thought it would only be fair to tell everyone my side of the story and wrote to everyone she was friends with on Facebook telling them the truth of what happened and thats when I discovered who she really was, I got innondated by emails from her friends (people who didnt know me and i had never met) telling me how my husband was not the first guy she did this with, that she specialised in going after married men, that in the past 5 years alone she has broken 6 homes, that they were surprised to hear that a decent person like my husband (whom they knwo because they work with him) would have fallen for someone who everyone knew as a homewrecker.
You have to understand that up until that point my husband thought the other woman was a nice sweet girl and that he had duped her etc, he was always protective of her in conversations and wanted to take the blame fully so when i showed him the unbias information i had gathered he finally started to realise that the sweet little innocent woman he betrayed his family for knew exactly what she was doing and in fact he was the person who had been duped used and pretty much played.
Ok so once again here we are im helping him find out things and work through his issues yet it all comes at a price, because i now look at him as a pure Idiot, he got played and he fell for it. so on one hand i help him see the light cause i cant bare for him to take on the blame but on the other hand its devastating to out recovery because its yet another blow in the sense that it highlits his stupidity and naivness.
Im sorry I know this is really long to read but the details are really importaint in this situation because thats what makes this affair impossible to get over and i need help because i need to keep my family together.
Anyway to cut this saga short the affair happened a year ago and here are the things that are totally becoming impossible to overcome.
1)As i have detailed knowledge of the sexual contact during the affair it i have images that haunt me and dont know how to get rid of them.
2)They did not use protection and I ended up catching things from the other woman i feel violated as i had no idea he was bringing that filth to my body and im finding it really hard to forgive him for that.
3)He has not reacted the way I would expect a person to react (as seen in movied heard about from friends stories etc) he has not grovelled begged or even apologised crying for the affair.
4)He says he loves me and want to be here and no where else, and to be fair he has taken alot of verbal abuse over the past year yet he has not made any progress or attempt to repair the marriage simply cause he says he doesent know how ( i dont know how either but atleast i try)
5)I have this immense obsession with wanting him to hate her with every ounce of his soul, not only for having had an affair with her but for her being such a vile human specimen. (he says he simply doesent care about her enough to hate her)
6)We can and do talk about anything but he is emotionally shut down towards the affair so i feel isolated in dealing with it alone.
7)Im so angry all the time, im so deeply sad all the time and i just miss the loving trusting person i used to be before the affair but dont know how to be that person again.
8)I dont know how to get him to understand the immensity of my sadness, we have tryed councelling but he is just incapable of connecting with my pain.
9)He still works with he other woman and although they dont talk or have any contact at work its making my life a misery as everytime he goes to work i just fall apart knowing he is in the same space as that vile being.
10) Although i know he has suffered enough due to this mistake that he wont be repeating it again anytime soon i cant shrug off the feeling that he hasnt learned enough or been humiliated enough that he wont do this to me again.

If there is anyone out there that has any suggestions please let me know as I really want to keep my family together but i cant do it under these conditions.
Thanks

Hi brutallyhonest,

I'm sorry that you find your self here.

This thread started by Mark may help you with the images
Managing Memories

ST

Hey Staytogther thanks for that link i thinks it makes alot of sense and will be showing it to my husband both in hope to bring him understanding that i dont just sit there remembering things just for the pure fun of torturing myself and also so he can understand what i mean when i say (and i always say this) that the only way to squash the bad memories is to replace them with good ones so he better hurry up and start creating good ones.

Hey there, I'm a newbie and still very much just trying to get through my WWs recent affair but from your story, it sounds like a lot of the work may be on your side.

A few thoughts:

- #8 says you tried counseling. For how long? Sounds like it has stopped. Who stopped it, him or you? Have you tried just going on your own?

- Have you read SAA? It's a great book and one of the lines I remember explicitly is "don't expect your WS to show remorse or regret". No doubt your WS feels an intense amount of guilt over this but he's not going to tell you. You need to accept that.

- Yeah, those images. They are haunting. I stopped asking my WW for specifics after the first few times. I still have the problem so I don't know what to say.

- You say he still works with the OW. That needs to end pronto! Tell him he needs to get a new job right away. That might diffuse some of the feelings you are having. Are you still worried about a new affair?

- Are your kids OK? What are the ages? Do they know at all? Do others know? Doesn't sound like affair is on-going but you never know. From what I've heard, intense exposure helps diffuse any further thoughts of As by the WS.

- If you are religously inclined - pray, a lot. Some days its all I've got...

Hi Bh28,

I'm in London too. staytogether is elsewhere in England. There are a few more of us Brits here in this club that we'd rather not be members of. Welcome to MB.

What type of counselling did you have? Was it with Relate? Was it with a specialist in infidelity? I went to a counsellor for 4 sessions. I responded to a flyer in my Dr's surgery. This counsellor was trained to look into the childhood causes of the problems the client now faces. My talking about my childhood did nothing to help me either stop the affair (which I suspected, but could not prove, was continuing) or deal with my obsessing and unhappiness. I had a great deal do be unhappy about, and stopping the affair and starting a programme of recovery would have helped with that, but the counsellor knew nothing about how to recover from infidelity. Was this your experience with counselling?

If you can possibly afford it, contact the MB coaching centre and make an appointment for telephone coaching. There is a poster, TravelMonkey, who had used the coaching centre from the UK. I'll give her a shout and ask her to tell you her experiences. Each hour-long consultation costs about $200 (plus the cost of the call). The coaches do not counsel couples together at first, so it will not matter if you do not get your H involved yet.

Your recovery does not stand a chance while H and OW still work together. Please read this advice from Dr Harley. In it he says

Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through hell. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.

Dr Harley's response to this letter deals with a work place affair and he says the same thing; the husband has to move away from where the OW works.

It is unlikely that your husband will be able to establish a meaningful relationship with you until his lover is no longer available to him. While she may be in a new location at work, I doubt that they will be able to avoid making contact with each other. So the first thing you and he need to discuss is moving to a place where he cannot make contact with her.

To provide an environment free of temptation to your husband, I usually recommend the drastic step of moving to another state. While that may sound impossible, or at least impractical, at first, moves are not all that unusual in America. In fact, it may give your marriage a whole new breath of fresh air. It will help you form a lifestyle that you both enjoy much more than the one you have now (using my Policy of Joint Agreement). And it will certainly make it difficult for your husband to keep his relationship with his lover alive. He can still do it, of course, but most addicts don't want to be addicted, and lack of easy availability is usually all it takes to break the habit.

Bh, have you read ALL Dr Harley's advice in the How to Survive Infidelity columns on this website? There is a link on the right hand side of this page. Please read all the letters about dealing with a wayward husband AND dealing with a wayward wife. You will see that Dr Harley is adamant about some things, and the affair partners not working together is one of them.

You are putting the cart before the horse by focusing on your inability to recover while your H still works with OW. It is very likely that they are continuing their affair on some level, and that might be why he is unemotional and unremorseful towards you. I had no idea how normal it was for affairs to continue after D Day until I found MB. My own H's affair continued after 3 discoveries by me, and when I came here I saw how normal that was.

We have lost a great thread on affair partners working together in the recent meltdown (several months of posts were lost this month in a technical glitch at MB). However, I think a thread on false recovery will have survived. I will bump it onto the front page of this forum. Please look out for it.

Please don't make the mistake of demonising OW and blaming her for the affair. Just remember that everything you say about her needs to be said about your H. He might not make a make a habit of having affairs, much less with married people, but he was the one who was married to you, and the father of four children whose lives he should have protected. He was not tricked into bed; he knew that he was committing adultery. It would not have mattered whether she was the Ho of Babylon or Mother Teresa on her first outing; your H was unfaithful to you and he needs to recognise how wrong that was.

Bh28,

I have bumped the False Recovery thread.

I am sorry to note that one of the last posts recorded on it (more recent ones were lost) was from stillstanding2, who, as you can see from her signature line, thought that she was in recovery when she posted then.

It turned out over the summer that she was not, and her H was still involved in an affair in some way. They are now divorcing because he refuses to end his affairs. However, she had no idea of this when she posted for many months.

It is staggeringly easy to be fooled because you do not want to believe that your once loving husband could repeatedly destroy you like this. Your H is still working with OW and you and your children are not safe until this stops.

Hey Indarkenss
thanks for your advice, as far as the councelling goes, we have had marital councelling and we have both had individual councelling separately, he has even tryed hypnotherapy to help him understand my pain. I lost hope in the marital councelling because after the 3rd session he made a comment that just infuiated me to the point i just didnt want to go to councelling again, he admitted that he was going to councelling as a challenge to see if anyone can "Crack him" becaus in his stupid way of thinking he is not emotional and therefore cannot be cracked, that infuriated me and made me loose hope in councelling, i do give him one brownie poing though, he is the one who found this site and told me about it (allbeit after several threats that if he didnt start working on the marriage he is gonna loose me) so i know on some level he wants to do the right thing he just doesent have a clue where to start, so in all honesty it was me who stopped the marital councelling not him.
As far as the images go i would say that the above link sent by staytogether might help you too as it makes alot of sense.
Job wise is so suffocating its unbarable, as mentioned above the other woman ensured that my husbands position at work was put at risk. When the affair was exposed he put in for a transfer to a different store but due to her revealing the affair and him having disciplinary action put on his record due to him calling in sick when was looking after me (and that was seen as a break in procedure because he wasnt sick i was and he should have taken carers leave not sickness leave and other stupid company policies) his record was ruined and this made the transfer fall through so he is stuck in his job at the store he is at until his record clears. He wont look for another job as he is extreamly well paid for what he does and cannot find a matching vacancy especially in this financial climate and the recession, he is truly stuck working with that vile thing. Also to be honest there is a part of me that gets some sort of security that as long as he works with her he has to be reminded of what he did, he is a laughing stock of his colleagues because he fell for the store homewrecking slut, everyone knows what he did where he works and they wont hesitate to contact me should he do anything like that again, but this also brings its own problems like the company christmas party that she will be at and im going to, i have become obsessed with loosing weight and looking my best in time for the party, i go gym 3 times a week restrict what i eat to 1000 calories and jog run and swim at every opportunity i feel that if i look my best at the christmas party ill be making a statement but its exhausting and i have just spent 10 days in bed ill after having over done it and havent been there for my kids and feel ashamed but i cant help it i need to be my best at that christmas party i dont know why.
Kids know and kids really have suffered, they are all boys aged 8, 5, 3, and 1. I have no bond with the baby as the affair happened shortly after he was born and i couldnt breast feed him afrer the affair as my body went into shock and i could no longer produce milk, that devestated me as i breastfed all the other chidren and in a way i dont feel that im good enough to be their mum right now so i let him take over their care. I do love my babies so much but i went through such a difficult abusive childhood myself that i kept thinking i rather not be here than be here in this shell of a state, and i hate to admit this but i did attempt suicide 2wice when i discovered the affair, im not proud of that fact but it was so devastating finding the only person on this plantet that i trusted take that trust and throw it away. As my name says it i am brutally honest and as i really do want help i will share what has happened however much i am ashamed of my own actions.

Sugarcane tanks for all the information, money is not an issue and if it means i can get help for my marriage ill work extra shifts and raise the funds needed for the councelling, we tryed relate but the waiting list was too long, we have both had individual councelling (mine oging his was only a 6 week course) and we have had family councelling (in england this seems to be the equivalent to marriage councelling) but as the name suggests i found it unhelpful and foudn the thereapist really inexperienced. I would love to try councelling with organisation/person. It really sounds like we both have had the same experience with councelling in the UK, i also had one concentrate on my childhood etc with the same results as you.
As far as them working together the situations is impossible to change as stated above however i did ensure that her job was monitored so if she has any further relationships within the store she will be sacked for bringing the company into disrepute, i achieved this by putting together all the evidence i had collected regarding her previous conduct with married men in the store (she has a 3year old child who's father is a unknown due to its being possibly belonging to 3 married men who work in the store, seriousely this womans antics are beyond beleif), i gave this unbias evidence to the store manager who has put it in her HR file as everytime she sleeps with a married manager they end up having to leave the store and managment are getting fed up with that but couldnt do anything about it without evidence so i gave them that and feel proud.
Im no angel i have ensured that her life is exposed and that she has had maximum humiliation that she wont even look in my husbands direction never mind have any contact. since the affair was exposed a year ago they have had contact 3 times and all those times were due to store procrdure where he had to hand her the store keys or something similar otherwise they stay well away from eachother and thats one this i am sure of. I made sure she hates his guts but thats my line of defence under these circumstances, i just cant help it if he has to work with her then its gonna be my way.
As far as demonising OW a part from the fact she truly deserves it i also feel that if i blame her then i can deal with it if i truly had to sit here and think of all the horror he put me through and to think he done it with his full senses uncurrupted then there would be no marriage cause i cant even put into words without crying my eyes out what horrible things his did to me after the affair.
And another importaint piece of information that i havent shared yet that will clarify how truly horrid this woman was is that when they slept together the first time it went horribly wrong, and my husband came to his senses and attempted to end the affair, she told him that the reason she was and i quote "as lively as a corpse in bed" was because she had been raped, he felt guilty and they were intimate again a second and final time with the same results as the first time but whats horrifying about this is that she admitted she had never been raped and used that because she was sensing she was loosing him, WHAT KIND OF PERSON DOES THAT? how can i not demonise her?

oh forgot to say sugarcane if you or anyone else can reccomend any literature/ councelling organisations that i can access from the uk please forward the details. I am desperate for appropriate intensive marriage/affair councelling.
Any books etc that me and hubby can use together would be great too,

Bh28, your H still working with OW is a problem partly because it is a form of contact and it easily allows the affair to resume. You might think that management is watching them both, but I am sure there is a lot they can do both during work hours and before or after work. People have had sex in car parks and toilets at work before. He might be meeting her on the way to work - even just to talk to her and be alone for a few minutes each day - and no-one would ever know.

But work is also a problem because while they are together, your mind cannot be at peace and you cannot start your personal recovery. Even if you are correct about management keeping them apart (and I doubt that they can do this completely), you are unhappy that he sees her every day. Your unhappiness will not stop while this situation continues.

The problem is that the above is the truth. He did horrible things to you after the affair, but also DURING the affair; by having the affair.

However, I do see what you mean about demonising OW as a way of coping. I think we all do that at some time. I just don't want you to ignore his complete responsibility for where you are now. If you do that, he will not have any incentive to change his own hard-headedness. He ignored the fact that he was a married father of four to get into bed with her in the first place. It is incredible that she should have pulled the rape stunt, but while that says a lot about her, his doing anything with her at all says a great deal about him. Don't blame her for his weaknesses. He has to understand how lowering his boundaries allowed him to get anywhere near to having a relationship with her. If he does not see how he got close enough to her to have sex with her, he will not see when it starts to happen again with someone else. Believe me, you will not feel one bit better if he gets involved with a saintly virgin next time.

You did not tell me whether you had read all the free materials on this site. You must do so and really understand the Harley method. Meanwhile, the most important book you can get is Surviving an Affair, by Dr Harley and his daughter, Dr Jennifer Harley Chalmers. I have not seen this book on sale in a UK bookshop (and I have searched widely for it; I bought mine in the USA) but you can order it online from this site, at a discount I believe. You can probably also get it at Amazon.com.

You should go to the Harley coaching centre and leave all other marriage counselling alone for now. I have not used the coaching service myself, but many posters who have tried conventional counselling as well as the Harleys say that the Harleys are by far the most effective.

I was shocked to hear about your H giving you an STD. Have you both had full medical treatment and has it all cleared up? Have you had repeat HIV tests? I do hope so, given this woman's history.

Is your H reading this forum? Does he know you have begun posting here?

I don't think the company has dealt with this correctly. By refusing him a transfer they have ensured that the affair partners continue to work together, which is not good management.

It should not matter that your H was disciplined for staying off work. It is in the company's interest to transfer him so that the affair no longer hovers over the workplace. He or you need to put this to them. Companies these days do not want to be implicated in harassment or other personal problems between employees. Tell them that if he is denied a transfer he might leave and claim constructive dismissal. He is trying to save his marriage and they are making this impossible.

You need to make sure that any move ends contact entirely. There would be no point his moving if the different branches are in contact with each other, e.g. through management meetings. Her name needs to disappear from his life altogether. No group emails, no office parties. If that cannot happen with a transfer then he needs to find a new job.

Please read the thread "She still works with him" in this forum if you need further convincing.

Have you read the "false recovery" thread yet?

I cant deny that your right in the above comments regarding them working together after all the managed the affair for 2 months undetected meeting in the carpark after etc. And i do hate so much that they work together, i dont worry that the affair is ongoing hoever after reading a few posts i am concerned it might resume if enough time passes and he lets his guard down again and she gets over hating him so much, she might just do it for the fun of it to be honest after all i have put her through hell.
And yes i cant start my personal recovery infact im self distructing by being in a virtual competition with her in my head. I constantly ask has she put on lost weight how is she looking today and give him the 3rd degree about her when he gets in from work so i feel like im pushing him to notice her at work for my own benefits when all he wants to do is forget he ever went there.
Demonising her yeah your right again but for now it gets me through the day its easy to hate someone you dont know than someone you loved and trusted so much, i have so much anger and maybe the best place for it to be directed is at her as when i get angry at him he looks like a lost kid doesent knwo what to say or how to react just sits there quietly and takes it, i dont find that helpful it feels like banging your head against a brick wall.
I havent started reading the free material on this site as i wanted to see if it was genuine and from the people in this forum i see that it has helped and i will start reading it but i dont want to do it alone i want him to participate, He doesent know i post on here however he is the one who told me about the site, i dont think he is aware of the forum side of the site and to be honest i rather keep it that way just because i can be more honest if he isnt reading it.
Lastly he passed on stds and as i was breasfeeding my baby i insited he got tested for everything immediately, thats including hiv and we have both received the appropriate treatment so i have got on top of that issue, Infact it was my priority as i said he is the only person i have ever been intimate with and i value my "clenliness" therefore him bringing that home to me was devastating and on this issue he gets full blame i dont demonise her for that, shes a slut and thats it but he is a complete moron for violating my body like that and i dont know if ill ever forgive him for that.

My heart goes out to you, Bh.

While you should indeed get your H to read, surely there is no reason for you not to read as soon as you can? You need to understand why we tell you what we do about the workplace and other things. It is because Dr Harley has learned, through trial and error, how to help couples end affairs and recover from them. He gives us this advice based on 30 years' experience. He does not see any point in raking up childhoods and talking about traumas from years ago, because therapists who do this have a dismal record in infidelity success. Dr Harley focuses on stopping the affair, making sure another one never starts, and rebuilding romantic love thereafter. His method is very practical and focused on specific, measurable outcomes.

Some of Dr Harley's columns are written for couples, where both spouses have recommitted to the marriage. However, some are written for the BS who has a WS who doesn't "get it" (i.e. how much work they have to do to recover) or is still wayward. There is no reason for you to wait for your H - who doesn't get it - to get it before reading yourself. Help yourself now; if you cannot sleep or think about anything else, reading Dr Harley now will help your anxiety a great deal.

You are correct about the affair resuming after the fuss has died down. PLEASE read the "False recovery" thread right now. You have no idea how normal renewed contact is. It is almost guaranteed if the parties work together.

Please keep your H away from this forum. If we give you advice on spying, for example, that will all be wasted if he can see what we are telling you to do.

Have a look in his internet history and see if he has already browsed here.

Sugarcane your opening a can of worms i thought i had shut the lid on. I totally agree with the work situation and if he tryed hard enough he would have made a transfer happen by now and saved me the horrendous pain i go through now do to them still working together. Ouch that hurt i cryed my eyes out reading Dr H advise on the cutting contact and being adamant of them not working together. My WS should be sparing of my feelings atleast if as he says he wouldnt go near her again still doesent help ease my insecurity. As mentioned before im in total army mode getting ready for that stupid party and im going to put myself through hell, and what for??

PS im ordering book now but so scared of all the things its gonna open up that i thought i had squashed by making excuses, i cryed just reading the phrase "Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through he11" it makes me feel so uncared about and disregarded, How can he just go to work everyday and let me go through hell? how did you deal with the revelations taht werent so easy to swallow that you found in the book?

Is that last question to me, about my reactions, or is it still part of your conversation with your absent H?!

I did not react as you are doing now. My reaction was more of smacking my own forehead and wondering how I could have been such a fool. I was so glad to read the materials because they gave me a real course of action and a plan. Other affair advice that I had found in books or on the internet was of the "look after yourself; cry when you need to; ask your H to hold you; take a warm bath" kind of claptrap. Absolutely no help with the nagging fear that the affair had continued and simply gone further underground. Dr Harley tells you to snoop to find out more, and people on this forum tell you how to do that. Dr Harley says to expose the affair, and people on this forum tell you how you might do that. They help you write exposure letters to the other spouse.

I did not post here until long after my H had changed jobs, but as soon as I read advice to expose to OWH I did so, by email. That put an end to the lingering phone-based EA that continued for 6 months after H gave up travelling.

I ate and drank up Dr Harley's and this forum's advice because I had been suffering badly in false recovery and not finding any concrete help (and not having any common sense!). Finding the columns was like removing my head from under the hammer that was hitting it.

Please stop being afraid Bh. You have nothing to be afraid of from reading and learning and eventually acting. Killing this affair will lift a huge weight from you. Your thread asks "It's been a year. When will things get better?" and the answer is "when you kill the affair". Only then can you begin recovery. You have been swirling around in this mess for a year and you have not started out of the blocks - just like me, one year after D Day.

Those worms are better opened up and dealt with than infesting your marriage. Don't be scared any more.

I might not get time to post until tomorrow evening, but I will look in on you then. In the meantime, please read every article on this site, and the thread that I bumped.

PS, don't go to the stupid party, and he must not go either. What are you thinking?? I take it this party is not compulsory? If he goes, that is yet another contact with her (even if you are there too) and if you go, you will be dying inside. Why are you even considering putting yourself through this?

Both of you need to never see this woman again. You might make a temporary exception for work while he finds a new job, but there is no need to volunteer for this misery.

hi sugarcane
had conversation with WH regarding job and he admitted that he feels that he cant change jobs mainly because he feels with the current situation he faces at home he cannot take a senior position within a new company as he will not be able to do a good job as he is too distracted with this post affair conflict that we are having DAILY, one day im angry and lashing out the next im sad and miserable and not coping so he has often been late for work etc due to ongoing fights. I told him that the problem was his job and thats why these things are happening when he is about to go to work and I reminded him that I have put up with him working with OW for a year now because our kids need food etc so i would be sensible should he move jobs and not pull any stunts as i understand how delicate a new start at a new job can be and how first impressions are vital. Its really frustrating me when i think that when he wanted to get in bed with OW his job, family etc didnt matter but now he can do something positive all of a sudden things bog him down and insecurities arise, where the heck were these insecurities as he was taking his pants off to get into bed with OW?
How would you advise i handle job situation? issue ultimatum? or carry on having nervous breakdown everytime he leaves fof work and hope the message gets through?
I also hate the company he works for because as you spotted in previous conversation they did not make things easy for post affair recovery, they stopped his transfer because he was too valuable for them to loose and didnt care about family situation because as far as they are concerned he brought it on himself, i even attempted to have meeting with company director to plead with him regarding transfer but was turned down as he advised he has to put business first (luckily that direcortor has since been fired due to bad managment decisions regarding other issue and i cant say im disappointed infact Karma is doing a pretty good job all round).
Regarding Christmas party i figured that i have to go to show everyone how strong we are and hopefully stop any further affairs, and although i will go through hell and back that night i have to do it, i want to ruin the xmas party for OW, she is so scared of me (due to information i have on her) that the pure fact of me being present at xmas party will send her into a nervous brakedown and i cant help but really look forward to that. She has no social life outside of work all her friends/ family work at the same store so me ruining her only social outing of the year its something im not sure how to give up. I dont intend on causing any trouble, talking about or to her, just the fact that i will be there will be enough to brake her as she will be expecting me to start something and i simply wont.
Lastly I have found letter WH has written and sent to OW, its really brutal and i dont know if i should share it on here in order to demonstrate what he thinks of her and affair etc. Its a very strong letter and will make you squirm but its what he did all on his own and without my interfering so wanted to get advice on weather letter is good or bad sign.

Hi Brutallyhonest28,

Sugarcane asked me to pop over to relay my experience of coaching with Steve Harley.

Sessions are $195 dollars and start at midday our time, right through to midnight. They are supposed to be 45-50 mins but frequently go over. The first one is giving a summary of the situation and Steve immediately sussed WS out. He wanted to know about OW as well.

I felt very at ease talking with Steve. It was wonderful to talk to someone real who didn't judge me for wanting to save my marriage.

He gave me phrases to use and asked me to persuade WS to call him. Luckily, my knowledge of WS helped me do this and they had a session, which by all accounts didn't go too well. Steve, in my next session, gave me a recap of what they had discussed.

I had three other sessions where he gave me advice on how to continue, how to handle situations and phrases to use with WS. At all times, Steve was concerned with my own strength and well being before he asked me to continue. He wanted to know that I had a support system and was doing ok.

I haven't scheduled any more sessions because I don't feel that there is much more advice we can get from Steve until WS and I move onto the next stage.

Reading your situation, I think that you both would benefit enormously from calling Steve. You have a lot to get to grips with and Steve will be able to sift through it and give you both a plan that will get you on track.

Good luck!

thanks TM really good to hear from someone who used the coaching, I definitley plan on booking an appointment, i have also bought Dr H book surviving the affiar and it will be delivered november 2nd so i have taken steps now to hopefully stop this mess.

I have a few questions regarding the coaching if thats ok

1) can steve coach both of us together or do we have to have separate consultations, what i mean by that is do we always have to talk to him separately?

2) What happens if steve advises us that there is no hope of a successful marriage could that happen and where would i go from a revelation like that?

3) WS would be more than willing to talk to steve so there is no persuading needed im just scared that i will be blamed for things as i have been ragingly angry at WS since A.

Another note that I have to tell everyone about is this morning i discovered WH has posted on forum. I havent asked if he knows that im posting. He is the one who discovered site first and told me about it so i dont know what to do. Would it work if we are both getting separate advice? or will things get messy. Has it ever happened before on here where WS and BS are both posting. What problems can i expect from that, his post is called struggling to save marriage as i am WH .

Does anyone have any idea if i should publish on here the goodbye letter from WS to OW? i need to know what you guys think of the letter as it reading it makes me feel safe but is it a false sense of security as they still work together, also its so cruel i hate the OW but have never seen this hateful side of my husband.
Help!

Bh,

I'm going to read your H's thread and have a think about what you have said today. May I ask you not to post the letter until you get some more responses from me and other people? I really do not know what is best just now.

Responses are slow at the weekend because people are spending time with their families. Things really pick up on Monday evenings (our time). Please do not be discouraged and I'm sure more support is on its way.

Hi BH28

You are getting some great advice. I often find it hard to post on BS threads being FWW but he really really does need to change his job for exactly the reasons stated. And the night out thing is certainly a no.

I haven't seen your Hs thread yet, might try and find it

I'll be here, I'm quite often about at the w/e in the evening

ST

t/j ST - HI!! How are you and J?
replied on the thread you started for me....
W

I am not posting letter until im sure its the right thing i dont want to do stupid things that will cause harm, the idea of the letter is to understand further and if a future reconciliation is even possible as there is no sign WH will listen and change jobs right now so having read other posts of women who turned a blind eye to WH working with OW and got stung i dont want to find myself in that boat. Cant make him change jobs, or atleast dont know how to do that. He has no confidence in himself and it will take alot of ego stroking and me jobsearching for him before he will get off his butt and leave his current job, to be honest i dont have the energy to sort out his life for him again. Regards him posting on here the gig is up he knows i posted here and he knows i know he posts so we both know its all out in the open, i am making an effort not to read/interfere in his post as i dont think me sticking my nose in will help us. I think that if he can express himself on here honestly then thats the only way he will get help same way I have been honest on here as there is no point sugarcoating the situation and lying about this because no one gets help that way. I have sent him the following text (he is at work) clarifying my position

"Im not angry at u i was just saying that if you want to get help you need to reply to all the comments on your post honestly, including the ones u think are not relevant or stupid (he said he thinks some of the replyes he got were stupid) and say what you think even if it is that you think they are not relevant etc. The only way your going to get help is by being totally honest and not give replyes to please me or censure yourself because your scared im going to get angry"

So i made my position clear and told him i wont be reading his posts unless he comes to me for advice about something in post.
I dont care if he reads my posts as i dont hide anything what i feel is very clearly communicated to him regularly so its not a big deal. I dont know if my outlook on this is idealistic or stupid but saving my marriage and family is my priority and if this means that he has to get help too then so be it, really not having negative feelings about that. Am i being Dumb?

I have bought the saving your marriage book via Amazon as it will be delivered quicker, the book will be here by the 2nd of November and im going to start with it straight away.

U guys have to understand i have been in this position for a year and have not had any clear direction until i came accross this site so im grabbing this help/advise with both hands as i have tryed everything else so far. Also raising funds right now to get telephone councelling, have booked extra shifts with work so im deadly serious about moving on from issues and would like to thank you all for helping me despite my newbie status.

i think it is very wise to stay clear of each other threads.

IF you both want to and you certainly both seem to want to - you will be able to turn it around with the MB principles.

There is another couple of brits about who are doing a fab job at recovery - Serendipitous is ever hopeful that OW is going to move very soon - she lives next doorish and has been declared. If your H shows commitment to changing his work position then maybe Sere may be able to give you some help in coping with close proximity of OW in the meantime. (she's on her hols at the mo) . Her H is Billy Basset.

Once H changes jobs there will be no issue as OW works and lives in different town one hour drive away so no issue with bumping into her etc. Husband works in the store in that town so he commutes 1 hour each way everyday to work and back and it makes it hard for me to pop in at his job and monitor situation as so far away. He also works from 4pm till 1am, I work from 6am till 2pm but have driven myself to exhaustion waiting up for him everynight (with the hour drive he gets home at 2am) to make sure nothing is going on, then get 4 hours sleep and go to my own job. its mentally and phisically exhausting especially as when i get in from work the kids and housework begin and there is just no time to recover any sleep, this is been going on for a year so im exhausted. The only proximity issue is that they work together once thats over then no issue.

When your hubs' copy of Surviving An Affair" arrives, please go through it with him (or take turns reading the chapters & discussing them). The first part is a lot about "typical" affairs, while the second part is lots of practical advice for both the betrayed & wayward spouses. Our marriage counselor had us work through this ... I think it helped both of us immensely, not only in coming to terms with what I'd done, but in getting us both to change the way in which we relate to each other, to minimze the chances that this would ever happen again.

I think my good friend st means "has been declared bankrupt".

Or "declared insane", maybe.

BH, this is a really bad idea. You are feeding on the drama of the affair by thinking and acting like this. You are still caught up in thoughts about OW. I know thoughts about her are inevitable, but you must not act in ways that involve actual, practical, focusing on her. You and H need to cut this woman out of your lives completely. You, especially, need to do that for your mental health. And don't you see that it will be contact for your H? Contact sets his withdrawal back a good deal. How will you know if he sees her and thinks of what they had together? Why do you want to risk putting that in the forefront of his mind again?

You do not need to ruin the party for OW. It is a stretch that you will do that, and not without ruining the next few weeks for you in preparation, and having a miserable time at the party. You cannot imagine that you are going to be happy there, surely. You will watch every move that she makes, and spend every second hoping that she is watching your carefree abandon (you wish). Everyone else in the room will be watching both of you. This affair is just intrigue to many of your H's colleagues, and they can watch EastEnders for that. Are you sure you won't end up in the loo, in tears? Are you sure you won't ask our H to take you home early, or do anything else to be the subject of gossip on the Monday morning? Don't treat your life and marriage like a soap opera.

You do not need to show the world how strong you are as a couple. You need to become strong, which you are nowhere near now, and then live your lives together well.

Your priority now is to end all contact. Next is to spend more than 15 hours a week alone together. You need to read Dr Harley. You need to do the coaching. You have a lot of work to do, together. Spend that particular evening going out or staying in and being close. Don't waste your time and set your personal recovery back by putting yourself through a pointless ordeal. The party is entirely pointless, Bh.

1) I am sure that there is no reason why you can't coach together. I would imagine that Steve would want to speak to you separately first but after that...

2) I don't see why Steve would do that. He never said it to me and WS is living on a different continent. You two are both wanting to make it work.

3) Don't worry. Steve has heard it all before and will instinctively know what is the truth, I am sure.

Incidentally, you may not get Steve. The admin girls may assign you to Jennifer but I am sure that the advice will be equally valuable.

Hello everyone
Just an update, last night WH got in from work was in a good mood i was in a strange mood, i dont know why but i was feeling extreamley strong and non tolerant of any C@@p he was going to throw my way. He read and replyed to his own thread on downstairs PC while i was in bed with laptop looking at site help like the coaching etc. He came upstairs once he was done and we started to catch up on our own thought regarding MB and help both getting there. Conversation soon turned into an argument as he was sitting there making crappy excuses about job, his lack of visible emotions etc so I just stood up and said the following to him and this is word for word
"I dont understand how you can sit here and still think its acceptable to give me excuses, i have been suffering for a year and have devised my own fantasy coping mechanisms all on my own with no help or support from you, I have had enough, so im going to say this once and i really mean it. Im no longer interested in your excuses, i am no longer interested in your self justifications or empty promises because by making me listen to all of the above means that your getting me involved in sorting your ***edit*** out and im no longet prepared to do that. I want action and i want you to take responsibility for your actions and own them. End of, this is not negotiable, you are so close to killing the little love i have left for you and loosing your family and no exuses you can come up with will help you when your alone and unloved, I am sitting here in pain and your just making excuses, what action do you think you need to take to help me? do you think that excuses and justifications are going to make me feel better or make you feel better?"
Following this he shut the hell up and just looked at the floor, I told him thats how i feel that i was going to go have an apple then smoke a cigarette then i was going to go to sleep watching TV, i was calm i wanst crying and i want shouting. So after no reaction while i did all the above tasks as soon as i settled to watch TV he took remote from me and told me he was sorry (trust me getting that man to say sorry is equivalent to getting blood out of a stone) he said he should have cuddled me when i was crying earlier and that he wanted to but again didnt just do it and got bogged down with excuses. I told him what i needed from him when i am in pain and i explained to him in a way he says he can understand and he thanked me for that. I told him when im in pain i needed him to share my pain (my exact example was get on your knees and grovel, thats a way to show pain and humiliation that i understand) I told him it wasnt about having power over him or humiliating him but when im sitting there crying/ feeling ugly (I think i look ugly when i cry) and humiliated the simple gesture of him getting on his knees and sayning sorry it makes me that he acknowledges that im in pain and puts him in pain receptive mode etc as opposed to sitting oppesite me not knowing what to do or say and when he finally says something is just full of excuses.
I dont think you will all agree with my approach but thats what i feel i need to see from him its really not about humiliating him.
Regarding him changing jobs i am adamant that he has to do that under his own steam, because if i get involved im going to end up sorting it out for him nad im not his carer he needs to stand up on his own and sort out his carreer. In the past year I have looked up and given him details of jobs that would be still well paid and fit in with our family life and he didnt even bother looking into them so im not doing the hard work for him again he needs to do this on his own as a sign of committment to making our marriage work.
Over the next 2 days we have come up with a plan that gives him time us time off work together so we can catch up with all the changes happening to us. Its like we have been in hybernation for the year and now its time to wake up and go get the nurishment and excercise we need to survive.
His mum came by this morning showed her site, she was so supportive and caring because although his family is old fashioned in the sense that they do not show emotions they do have a heart of gold and his mum revealed that she has been concerned about the family but didnt want to interfere and is glad we are finally doing something about situation (I thought exposure of help would spur WH to stick to plans promised).
Im struggling with the 15 hours a week concept, we have 4 kids under 8 and a house full of pets (2 dogs, 8 puppies, 3 cats, fish, 2 hampsters, a turtle etc) so we spend all our time caring for kids and animals plus both work opposite shifts with only 1-2 hours to communicate see eachother a day. When we do get the occasional day off together its all about catching up with chores, bills, food and household shop. Its a total nightmare to try and get some space, we dont have anyone that helps with kids no one to babysit so we can go out socially together. WH told me that he wants to read Dr H book together he says he will be upset if i read it on my own so we are trying to work out an hour of peace and quiet together where we can read and discuss book when it arrives and i have promised not to read any of it without him.
When we do spend time together i think that we have a level of intimacy thats really amazing and that i am proud of, he is my best friend as well as my husband and i can talk to him about anything (womens issues icky embarassing stuff etc, he used to help me shave my legs when i was pregnant and couldnt reach them due to bump and happily cut his toenails because they get on my nerves when they scratch me during the night in bed (not in an icky sense in a tender confortable sense like monkeys grooming eachother in the jungle type of thing lol). Being Italian i was brought up in a way that a woman has to keep up appearances, never let her man see her without make up and this is a direct quote from my mother "if you dont paint your toenails how do you expect your husband to know hes in bed with a woman", i do look after myself and i do take care of the way i look and dress but i do it because i want to not because i have to please my man! infact when WH was having A i was the in the best shape i had been in years, was wearing suits to work and having my hair professionally done on a weekly basis, I had lost the baby weight etc, (OW short, very fat, spotty chin and face and brasts that reached her belly button with a wide gap between them so wide you can park a bus).
About Xmas party thats still something I have to do, its like a compulsinon, i wont cry in front of her no matter what happens, I have been fantasising about xmas party for a year and i dont know how to let go of that, I want to see her i want to be near her and destroy her like she has destroyed my family, and as far as him being near her, he has taken me to his work place when she has been on shift several times and the poor things was all over me as he was so concerned about what i was going through that he didt look her for a second, infact shes the one who run off crying into another male staff member acting like shes hurt at seeing me and WH together. Stupid attention seeking moron! I read in somewhere that in the olden days women used to be branded with a scarlet A and have their hair shaved off when they had A with married men, whos bright idea was to stop that tradition?

PS telephone coaching discussed and will be booked next week, im giving up smoking ( i smoke 2 packs a day now) and putting money saved towards coaching, so this is immediate way of releasing funds that i thinks is fair and healthy rather than dong extra shifts and not seeing kids/WH for days at at time.

OOPS sorry moderator didnt mean to use profanity, was quoting discussion, will not happen again

UPDATE/RANT

ArgHHHHH, its 3:30 am here and im sitting here soooo angry!!!!
WS was at work all day i was looking after kids, no communication while he was at work as was to busy doing a good job for the moronic company he works for.
Spent day with kids and just recovering from last nights argument. Nothing bad happened specifically, infact was happy to have some space from him and thinking about A. Was really enjoying catching up on other MB users stories and getting to know the history of members etc.

I have looked at the replyes WS has been getting on his thread and was very impressed with advise he has been getting etc, dont have any urges to interefere in his thread although not too happy with his level of honesty
"will start looking for job straight away" utter claptrap not even looked for a sec, been to work with OW 3 times since he supposedly realised that he has to have NC in order to save marriage.

Im so angry !!!!!! Then read his replyes to posts and his general MORONIC attitude, and just feel like exploding, THE MAN HAS NO BRAIN USEFUL CELLS OR DEPTH, he appears so soul-less!!!

Every time i see that i loose another bit of Love for him and trust me there isnt much love left to loose!!

Please someone help me cause i dont want to loose my family but I refuse to go on like this i really do.

Tonight as i sit here next to him sleeping like a baby all i can think about is that i want a Divorce and i want it now, I havent got anymore fight in me, I cant turn him into a human and i cant make him have a heart end of.

My kids DESERVE MUCH BETTER !!!!!!!!

Hi BH,

I understand everything you are saying about your love draining away. I agree with TA, who suggested that your H is choosing to put up walls around his feelings. I think he would feel something very quickly if you left him. I hope it does not have to get to that.

I don't think that your feelings will change until the job situation changes, and the ball is in his court on that. I do not think he should depend on a transfer when his record becomes clean in January. Surely it would take at least a month for something to come up. That means that you would be waiting a minimum of 3 months to see any movement. That is not good enough for you.

One of the finest posters here, tst, has posted to your H. He is a FWH who put his wife through false recoveries and eventually left her and their 5 kids. She went to Plan B (no contact at all with spouse while separated) and after a short time he went home. She imposed stiff conditions on his return, including a post-nuptual agreement to give her almost all their assets if they divorced because of his repeat adultery, and MB coaching. Later, they went to a MB residential weekend. He has had so much direct assistance from Dr Harley that he really understands the programme and can give very specific Harley advice. He is very good with WHs. He will stick with your H closely and give him strong talks and encouragement if your H keeps posting. However, your H's rather flippant attitude might make many people think he is not serious. Let's hope not.

Have you clicked the link to the coaching centre yet? It is on the welcome page to the forum. Please do this today.

It's one of the reasons why we have recommended you don't read his threads. Trust me - with people like Melody Lane and TST, he won't get by with slacking off. Reading his thread at this point is like cutting open your own wounds. He didn't do that to you - you did. He's still a wayward git. And will be until he gets that new job. You have to focus on you and what you can do to fix your side of the marital fence - reading his thread won't help you do that - it gets you caught up in all of the things HE'S done wrong and is doing wrong.

I agree with your comment and WH ha openly said that during the whole post A mess he has never felt that he is loosing me therefore and has blamed that on his lack of emotional awakening. He knows me very well as i have been hurt in the past by friend/family once i cut someone off emotionally there is no going back, he has witnessed this over the years so understands i have very effective cut off mechanism and therefore when i threaten separation he gets scared and does attemt to sort things out however this is always short lived and full of empty comments with no actions to back them up.

Im trying to learn the quote oprion in forum so will need to carry on reply on separate post

Continued....

I have read and now finally understand the plan A/B concept, exposure, LB's and the concepts of MB. I have literally been glued to PC reading other members posts and trying to learn as much as i can from them (one in particular that had me up all night compelled to read was Not2fun, that woman is my idol cant beleive her rollercoaster).

I have a few comments re Plan A /B etc:

I am proud do say although i wasnt aware of plan A or this site at the time of A discovery i did follow plan A exactly (give or take a few LB's along the way on angry days) I comforted, wasnt needy, met his EN fully, listened to WS while he was in total fog and much more, thats what helped him stay in the mariatal home despite him being a runner in every single other aspect of life.

I am thinking about plan B but need to really understand it can anyone summarise it for me? Link on side of page ok but not clear enough for me.

Exposure- Im well on top of that one i think even our postman knows lol, Exposure of A in my case was immediate to all and this really did help wake up WH from fantasy of A , basically in short when i asked how he was going to explain OW to his parent when he was in fog he actually beleived that they would welcome her with open arms if he introduced her 6 months after we Divorced etc. with exposure he got told by parents the what would ACTUALLY happen had he brought OW home to them etc (basically they would never accept her etc), so i am great beleiver in exposure and in my case the above was just the tip of the icebergh as far as the amount of wake up calls it gave WS when exposure happened. LOVE EXPOSURE, it was a marriage saver for me and cant reccomend it enough.

OK so thats where I stand regarding MB principals. And have clicked read and discussed with WH telephone coaching with Steve, any idea how long the wait is for appointments? havent requested appointment yet as waiting for finances to come through to pay for session.
SAA book ordered saturday and awaiting delivery.

Job wise I WILL NOT TOLERATE IT TILl JANUARY!! No way! he has to search and find job Now!

Regardig WS posts / thread....

Ok so I was a good girl and did not look interfere with WH recovery until WH told me he was being totally floored by MB members and their comments and he was getting overwhealmed by amount of questioning so yes curiosity got the best of me and i looked. I didnt interfere despite ovelwhealming urge to shout abuse at him in his thread page so im gonna give myself pat on back for not doing that (and beleive me people im an emotional person with no control over myself when hurt/ angry so restraining myself is a big deal.


I DO trust MB members on here as read enough to know they mean business so despite me being chronic control freack i have seen enough to know that WS will be getting appropriate comments guidance on here and will do my best from today to avoid interfering with that.

Udate on today.......

Had little sleep and woke up in tears after nightmare (dreamt WH A was ongoing with OW). WH woke up with me, told him was fed up as he isnt taking MB seriousely enough and that replyes closed and very flippant so either sort that out or give up on MB and just get on with separation. WH expalined he was overwhealmed by replyes at 2am and with lack of sleep etc. Reminded him i not interested in excuses as i havent exactly slept much lately but im answering/communicating on here appropriately etc. WH said will try review his comments/thread once he has had some sleep and see if that helps him absorb informaion on there. I went back to sleep as exhausted i beleive WS went back on MB.
Woke up 6 hours later and here i am.

Emotionally - Recharged follwing decent sleep
Patience - Recharged following decent sleep
Communicaton with WS - Minimal so far due to decent sleep
Thoughts on Divorce - havent had many yet.
Anger - Ongoing (no amount of decent sleep tackles that one)
Overall Summary - Feeling ok so far but then i have only been awake an hour.

Pretty typical...Are you feeling like divorce would relieve the pain/anger? Are you in an at fault state? DUDE

Having been stuck in this a year with little or no progress i feel that Divorce would offer the beginnign of the end for the suffering.

Whats an at fault state dude?

Its a state where the Betrayed Spouse, gets a lot more of the chips if adultery is involved. I'm in Texas, its 50-50, no matter what happened! (WAH!) DUDE

Dude, BH28 lives in the UK, as you can see from her location data.

I can honeslty say i dont know much about divorce laws in the UK, howver i do know they are alot simpler and cheaper than in the US.
We dont have any great assets (we rent, dont have major savings etc) so financially im not worried, Hes the one who will get the brunt due to Child support here being very strict and due to his good wage he will loose alot. He will have to move in with parents as wont be able to afford to rent etc.
I on the other hand will be alot better off financially if we were D as would get alot of help from state benefits (not that i want that at all as i work but good to know there is help should i need it, i would never end up homeless or hungry).
Come to think of it I cant beleive how easy D is in UK compared to USA, un UK it makes no difference divorcing on the grounds of A or just cause you dont love eachother anymore the only time it matters if there is a Prenup and even those seem to be only used by the ritch and famous. There is no alimony etc only concern of couts here is children welfare. I cant decide if this system is good or bad. Just to give you an idea Divorces will not cost you more than 2000 usd here!

Doh - this is Bruitallyhonest28 by the way, on downstairs pc WH didnt log out so accidentally replyed using his ID. I usually use laptop and my WB ID is automatically saved on there. I wasnt snooping, promise!

Bh, this is not true for a lot of people. I think it will be true for you because you do not have major assets to divide, but a complication for you is the time factor.

To get a "no fault" divorce in England and Wales, there must be no objection from either spouse. If both spouses want the divorce, they must separate for 2 years. That alone causes delay.

If one spouse objects then they must separate for 5 years. That obviously causes a major delay.

The only way that the two or five years can be overriden is to cite something like adultery or abuse. However, you can only cite adultery for up to six months from first learning about it. If the act is repeated the clock starts again from zero, but I don't think you said that the affair continued within the last 6 months. As I understand it, that six month window has passed for you so now it would be a case of two years' separation - if your H does not contest the petition. If he does, it would be five.

I don't know what "abuse" might mean, apart from physical abuse. It might be that emotional abuse could be recognised by a court, but I have never researched that. I only researched adultery because of my own situation.

Even with the relatively quick case of adultery, the division of assets and the consideration of the children's best interests - which might mean speaking to them - can slow things down so that the outcome is a two-year wait anyway. For children to be spoken to, a date must be set for a visit and then a report must go back to the judge...that stage could take a few months.

I also think you are wrong on cost; if a couple are trying to protect their assets they will retain bulldog lawyers who spend a lot of time making legal arguments and charging hundreds for each hour's work, before they ever get in front of a judge. Then you must factor in the other losses, such as having to give half your assets to someone who leaves you for an OP, and perhaps having maintenance if a wife can convince a judge that she is not living with OP.

I don't know where you get the idea that there is no maintenance here? We do not call it alimony, but it exists. Many people pay a lot more than $2000 when all is taken into account..

Finally, you might think you cannot lose financially, but if your aunt in Italy dies before the settlement and leaves you her house, that becomes a marital asset and your H might be entitled to half its value, adultery or not. That happened to a friend of mine (with her mother in England dying) and she now will not divorce her walk-away WH because he will be entitled to some of the money her mother left her, or so she has been advised by a solicitor.

WOW SC
Really had no idea it was that complicated only case i got reference from was my close friends who her WH repeatedly cheated, one day she kicked him out (more than 6 months had passed since his latest affair) because she had just snapped out of caring about him. They were both working and had no major assets like us and he contested the divorce very very hard, even using the fact that he was not mentally fit (has bi polar) and therefore was not in compus mentus state to agree to divorce. They had 2 children and court date was set to sort out childrens best interest. Divorce came through no problems within a year despite his valid reasons for contesting it, she named O Women as reason for divorce and their name is actually printed in her divorce papers! the whole process cost her �150 as she was on low income (thats about 300 USD). However I will point out they did not use any lawyers in any of this process so that might be why this case is different.
Now it has been 2 years since her divorce, she is in new relationship happy and settled her WS is literally living on streets in rags, walking around mumbling, he stops by our house sometimes and he is literally a homless person. He has been institutionalised many many times and has no contact with kids as he really is not aware of the world around him, he is a shell of the person he used to be and i have know him 10 years so that just goes to show what happens to some WS when they think the grass will be greaner on the other side. Maybe i should tell her about site so she can tell you her story herself. It really is amazing.

The six-month limit for divorcing on the grounds of adultery in the UK is actually quite flexible as to reason, as I found when I was pursuing my own divorce application. It doesn't necessarily have to be based on an outright act of adultery; any act on yllan's part that is connected to the adulterous behaviour and causes unbearable trauma to BH28 can be used as a basis for the six month period. The fact that yllang still works with OW and has contact with her might well be enough. I was able to start proceedings based on an action by FWH that had nothing to do with the OW.

Ps My grandmother passed away and left me substantial inheritance, the paperwork for this is going through as we speak and money will arrive by April 2010, I hadnt even considered this!!! how can i protect my inheritance?

Oh dear! could it be that he is acting all "im committing, etc" just cause of inheritance?

IM IN MEGA PARANOIED MODE NOW. thanks !

I think you'd have to consult a solicitor on that, BH, but I suspect it will all be part of the communal property pot, which will include division of your H's pension. If it's a substantial amount, it might also rule you out of receiving Legal Aid, if you were hoping for that.

no i wouldnt be entitled to legal aid so thats not issue, my inheritance is very substantial, we have never had that kind of money ever!
I know i sound naive but he has never ever been financially selfish so i cant see why he would be waiting for inheritance to file for D.
Its just a shock when i realised about it, i hadnt even considered and it sent me into mega paranoied mode.
If he isnt being genuine it will soon show up so let wait and see.

That's good to know. TA. What you say might explain the speed of Bh's friend's divorce.

I read a solicitors' website, and it did not go into any details of that flexibility. I could see that the firm was touting for business, but I did not mind that; the legal facts seemed to be quite clearly stated. The site kept saying that you should contact them for individual advice - which is only fair - but it was very detailed and explained certain concepts very well.

I thought it tried to put plaintiffs off citing adultery. It said clearly that you get no extra money for it, and it seemed to be saying that you cannot compel the OP to answer the charge. It said that bad feeling was caused for the kids. The only value to the BS was to salve her pride, and it was not worth the fight to get that. It said that in many cases, because of assets, the decree might not come through much more quickly than a two-year deal.

However, I can see that many people on MB would not take advice from a solicitor on how important it was to get the fact of adultery on record.

The site pointed out that the six months referred to the BS's knowledge of the event, not the event itself. If a BS found out about an affair from 20 years ago, they had six months to file for adultery. After that it is the longer route.

Bh, you really must see what can be done legally to protect your inheritance. In many states in the US a post-nuptual agreement could be made binding. A document could be drawn up to say that if further adultery by WS leads to divorce, the BS gets practically all the assets. tst has an agreement like this. I don't know that such an agreement would be respected by an English judge.

I think that there are problems with post-nups. The poster Niitse and her H recently asked what would happen if there were an affair and the WS hid it; the post-nup could not be brought into play, obviously, and there is no incentive for an active WS to be honest about the reason for leaving. What could the BS do if months after the "no fault" divorce, the FWS moved in with someone? Nothing could be proved.

If the post-nup is drawn up to protect the original BS, what happens if the BS becomes a WS? There probably would not be a clause to cover that, because the BS would not have wanted at the time of reconciliation; it gives no security. The point of the post-nup is to give the BS financial security as compensation for the risk they are taking by going back with the FWS.

Divorce is no picnic, it seems.

Wow and i thought that keeping a marriage together was hard, maybe i dont want D i want legal separation first. Im in no hurry to meet anyone and remarry so what are the ACTUAL benefits of D in my case a part from finilaising marriage brake up.

As far as inheritance goes, discussed with WS and he is adamant that he would not touch it and is prepared to go to solicitor to draw up docs to secure inheritance is mine and kids and he has nothing to do with it.

I do feel a bit bad for thinking badly of WS as he has never ever been selfish with money infact i have to force him to spend money on himself and even then he struggles. For some reason he just doesent like spending money on himself, he has been like this since we married (10 years) so I dont see why this would change now. When we have spare money it goes on kids/house first then if i drag him shopping he might get himself something and even then its a struggle to explain to him that he works hard and the spare money is his as much as ours. I really cant fault him on that point.

Marriage update

Ws gone to shops to get items for dinner, im in really histerical state i cant stop laughing at everything, it feels like the tension of the past couple of days is all coming out in histerical giggling! (weird i know). Feeling relaxed as WS home and not at work with OW, i cant beleive how much difference that makes to my overall mood, i feel relaxed and calm i dont know why i didnt notice this fact for a year!

I dont know what we are doing after dinner maybe more talking, maybe more laughing i really dont know right now.

Little ickle problem, WS want phisical contact, im just not sure, im scared of letting my guards down and hamper his current status of working hard to sort out marriage. I dont want him to get complacent etc. But at the same time i cant hold intimacy as a bargaining tool especially when for the past year my mind set had been along the lines of i have to give him what he wants when he wants it or he might go elswere for it etc. This led to many incidents of me having vivid thoughts of A during Intimacy, and just gritting my teeth and getting on with it when all i wanted to do was get him off me. Deed over i wait for him to fall asleep and then cry myself to sleep. The above status has improved over the year and there are some really good times when i want to be close to him and i forget about A during intimacy but tonight im just torn. Any ideas??

Document his emotional needs.

Sexual Fulfillment (SF) is typically very high on a man's list (and often on a woman's).

It's my #1 need... and for me, my WW filling it helps fill the love bank when the fallout from her emotional affair keeps draining it.

Bh,

That seems to me like an improper, inappropriate, intrusive question and I suggest you do not answer it.

THE INAPPROPRIATE QUESTION IS STILL THERE.

@SugarCane: Assuming you felt it was my question that was inappropriate, I re-worded it to be rhetorical for Brutallyhonest28 to ask herself rather than answer on the boards.

Barnboy, what do you not get about this? You have twice changed the wording but the question is still there.

It is distasteful for you to ask this detail of another person's sex life on a public discussion board. You are a man, she is a woman and it looks perverted. Please remove it altogether.

@SugarCane I disagree with your assessment; if someone opens the door to intimacy issues on the board, it's appropriate to address them. However, out of respect for your contribution to the thread I've removed the passage to which you took offense.

You may wish to do likewise.

It is appropriate to address the issue she raised, Barnboy, not to raise your prurient one.

Why would she need to ask herself that question, Barnboy? She knows the answer!

I'm disturbed that YOU wanted to know the answer!

Not further responding to SugarCane's TJ; as you were.

From the quote in SC's post, I have to agree with her. Barnboy, that this was inappropriate comment from a male poster to a female on a public board. BH was clearly talking about the painful emotions she experiences over intimacy, not her level of sexual satisfaction. Your post did come over as perverted.

It's clear what's important to YOU in your own relationship in terms of SF. However, I would respectfully point out that males and females have a very different attitude to sex. Women DO enjoy having sex, but they usually need to feel relaxed, safe and trusting of their partner before the enjoyment kicks in. I doubt very much that candles and chocolate would do it for BH, yes?

Maybe some people are on here to "hook up"? DUDE

HEllO Whats going on?? i get off forum for a little while to have dinner and this happens!!
I cant see what question was asked of me and to be honest i dont want to know at this stage as seems to have offended people so i dont want to put myself through that.

I opened intimacy issue because its an issue for me EMOTIONALLY. not phisically and WS has never had any complaints re frequency enjoyment etc so im not interested in hearing about how i should learn to satisfy WS etc cause thats a load of unecessary claptrap!! THAT HAS NEVER BEEN AN ISSUE FOR US.

I want to feel safe that i can discuss what is bothering me etc without having to censor myself. Is that really too much to ask? Are there subjects i just have to avoid?? cause if there are somebody needs to tell me about that. I speack my mind and dont censor myself well.

Sorry its BH28 here not her WS! this logging in and logging out thing getting too much. Forgot to log out WS page! i got to stop doing that lol

BH, I think you're struggling because you don't have a plan. You don't know whether you're in Plan A or Recovery or what (in MB terms). I think you'll feel a lot better when you've got your plan in place and are working it.

Firstly, you're not in Recovery, because yllan is still working with the OW. Recovery can't even begin till you get clear water between you and the OW. So I think you need to form a timeline in your mind, and get your boundaries set out. For example, say yllan is still in the same job by end December. Or February, or whatever. Whether he's tried or not, let's say he's still in the same job with OW. What will you do at that point? (Hint: the answer is not 'Drift on the same way'!) This is where you have to be tough and self-disciplined. It would be useful to have spoken to a lawyer so you know what your options are. But if you decided that you can't go on while he's still working with OW (which is perfectly reasonable), then you need to have that time limit in place in your mind, and be prepared to take action as you need to.

If he moves out to stay with his parents or whoever, you need to be prepared for how you will deal with that. You can only let him back to attempt recovery if he meets your conditions (new job, NC with OW).

If you get to that stage, you'll need a new plan, but there's plenty of time to sort that out.

Right now, your marriage is leaking fuel at a dangerous rate, while his contact with the OW is constantly re-wounding you. He needs to leave that job. I don't think he'll try very hard unless he thinks you mean business about it. Mean business.

TA

Bh, how long would you say he has held that status? I think that, at most, it has been two days since he expressed willingness to change his job. I would not give him too much credit yet.

If you read Dr Harley's Q & A letters, you will see that he adapts his advice depending on whether the WS is a wife or a husband.

In this Letter: Unfaithful Husband he uses the terms "first step" and "second step" rather than "Plan A" and "Plan B":

As you know from having read my book, I advise your husband to never see his lover again. He must move to another job and possibly to another state before he can reconcile with you. Otherwise, he will continue to love her and be unable to resist seeing her from time to time. Even if your marriage improves, he may never be able to overcome his feeling of love for this other woman unless he stops seeing her.

But, from your description, he is unlikely to accept my advice -- at least at this time. All of his talk about the way he "feels" proves that he is addicted to his lover. So I recommend a three step plan to you.

The first step is to be the very best wife you can possibly be. Do everything you can to meet his needs, and don't do anything to upset him. Set a period of time that you think you can do this without getting too upset, say, six months. Once in a while, tell him that you think both of you need a fresh start somewhere else.

If he does not respond to your kindness and respectful suggestions within that period of time you're ready for the second step: pack up yourself and your children and move near your family and friends for their support. It should be far away from his lover -- another city or even another state. Have absolutely nothing to do with him. Don't talk to him, don't see him.

However, in what appears to be a later column that gives a more precise definition of the plans, he says

Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespect, and demands. These three Love Busters not only ruin any effort to reach a negotiated settlement, but they also make the betrayed spouse much less attractive to the wayward spouse. Instead of encouraging total separation from the lover, the anger, disrespect and demands of the betrayed spouse make the lover appear to be the only one who truly cares about the wayward spouse. They literally throw the wayward spouse into the arms of the lover.

On the other hand, if the betrayed spouse approaches the wayward spouse with respect and thoughtfulness, the cruelty and self-indulgence of the affair is much easier for the wayward spouse to understand. And once the wayward spouse's mistake is acknowledged, it's much easier for him or her to take the first step toward recovery by agreeing to never see or talk to the lover again.

In these negotiations for total separation, the causes of the affair should be addressed. Since one of these causes is usually unfulfilled emotional needs, the betrayed spouse should express a willingness to meet those needs after the affair has ended.

What are Plan A and Plan B?

"Express a willingness to meet those needs after the affair has ended". Dr Harley does not say that you should meet those needs now. On the face of it, that means that you should not participate in SF unless it is one of YOUR needs on a particular day. Of course, that could mean no SF for weeks, which will have an effect on your H's experience of Plan A.

You do not know if your H is communicating with OW. He says that he is not, and that he has seen her 3 times at work this year, always in front of other people. However, their continued working together represents a continuation of the affair for you. Your H's total inaction in searching for a new job is also a gross neglect of your most important emotional need, and it seems perverse for you to be expected to meet his need for SF when he has been completely unwilling to meet yours for safety.

My wife and I had the problem of posting under each others name as well. You can change the screen view by going to;
"My Stuff"
*
"Edit Preferences"
*
"Your Preferred Stylesheet"
*
change it to -Dark-

It is a reverse view that one of you can use and you will know just by looking at the screen who is logged in...... we find there is less chance of accidental postings.

Just a suggestion that might help. Good Luck!

Thanks for tip Tst somtimes i get so eager to answer a post i forget what PC im on lol. I will reply to intimacy issue tomorrow if thats ok as too tiered to explain much further now.

GREAT UPDATE!

Couldnt reveal plan on here before as WH might see it but when i posted regarding my friend who's WS is now homless etc it got me thinking and devised sneaky plan.
Here is what happened, for easyness im going to refer to my friend as JJ. I called JJ as she works for a great company and loves her job, its well paid and very family friendly etc, basically ideal job for WH. Told her dilemma and she told me her company are recruiting right now. She came over this evening as if she was just passing by and as we were all chatting she mentioned job, WH asked about job role pay etc and completely lit up (Basically job is IDEAL, working from home most the time, more pay, company car and suitable hours, job role involves monitoring criminals with Tags). JJ told WH to have his resume ready in the morning and email it to her, she will pass it onto relevant department and they will definitley be in contact as like to employ reccomended people by staff.
WH has not stopped talking about new job and he is exited about it so all signs looking good, will see if he follows through with resume in the morning as application window is very very short.
How good is that!! Me not so stupid today!

You deserve a gold star, Bh. You are a brilliant wife and your H should tell you so hourly.

Please keep us updated - and remember to follow through with the coaching centre appointment.

Thanks SC thinking of buying one of those reward charts you get chidren to monitor my behaviour and put gold star on it LOL

OK so plan wise i think im in tail end of plan A. I have done most of the hard work of plan A by meeting spouse ENs for the past year. I have exposed, broken fog regarding OW (although this one was way too easy once her history was discovered lol), WS has done missing OW, pining, fog etc letter of NC to OW done months ago sent successfully. now appears to immensly dislike OW so i feel that side is accomplished well.
We are no way near recovery, I think recovery only starts when NC established and WS shows active committment to marriage not just verbal committment.

Plan to move forward as follows:

1)continue to make progress regaring NC and new job (my timeline on this is new year no job change by New Year = immediate Plan B and NC with me etc.

2) Read SAA book together once it arrives.

3)Learn about LB's and implement avoiding them immediately (i have a big issue with LB comments directed at WS daily)

4)Work out some time and space to work on WB principals together, and make effort to achieve 15 hours week contact

5)Book phone councelling with steve.

thats as far as i got with plans any thoughts/ suggestions?


PS need to clarify something else


No way and i hope WS has not given the above impression cause he is in for a telling off if he has, WS sees OW DAILY at work (a part from when she or he are on holiday or opposite weekends rota), he has only (and i use the term only very loosely here) SPOKEN to her directly 3 times in past year even if it was presence of customer managment etc. She is tills suprevisor he is part of stock managment, they both work at a DIY store. We arent talking about a super big store here, so they do see eachother every day at work and have close phisical proximity.

Fantastic news, keeping everything crossed for you both over in the west.

Stunning work!

Yey thats two gold stars for my chart lol! Resume accomplished this morning and sent - took WS 6 hours to do it and took me sitting him down like a baby and proofreading and breacking it down for him section by section to achieve this lol. It baffles me to think he managed to run and conduct full blown deceptive (hiding clothes in car, erasing phone cell history etc) affair yet cant sit down and do simple resume unaided! Frustrated but trying to avoid LB's!

PS wanted to thank People praying for us in forum, I was a Christian however lost my faith a long time ago (following child born with heart defect and witnessing many innocent children loose their lives to medical conditions while in hospital with son). I do hope one day i will have the streangth go get back to God and im grateful for your prayers at a time when i cant pray for myself.

PS in case you havent figured it out this Is BH not WS, having another "stupid" moment today and not checking username before i post. This really got to stop. once mistake, 2wice still mistake but 3 times im starting to look really dumb!

Good luck in your recovery; sounds like the two of you are making steps in the right direction now after a year of difficulty!

Thanks Barnboy but im afraid what everyone says on here is totally true there is no way we can start heading in right direction until WH leaves job.
I see the way he is behaving regarding job situation right now as a test of how much he cares. Lets face it the man has a lot of issues (im being sarcastic here)

He cant tell me he loves me cause he doesent have the experience or the words to express how he feels
He cant show me he loves me cause he doesent know how
He cant do alot of things but then i never thought i could tolerate a cheater for this long, i never thought i could stand there and listen to the details, excuses etc.

Im not asking him to have psychic powers and just figure out what my needs are and how he can make me happy etc. Im telling him daily what he NEEDS to do and yet here i am waiting for him to do even the smallest of my requests.

want an example of the daily moronic comments i have to endure, heres one that will really make you laugh.
As mentioned earlyer my friend JJ came over yesterday regarding job etc, she stayed quite a while and we all got on well chatting then conversation turned to MB and A, JJ ask WS

JJ "so would you fight for W if she walked away"
WS "i dont think i would have the willpower to fight for her"

Me= Dumstruck, humiliated incredibly hurt and embarassed add extra humilation bonus as this conversation taking place in front of my friend.

Cheers hun! thanks for making me feel worthless!! thumbs up to you (not!).

Thinking of starting thread called WH inaproptiate comment of the day lol ( i really got to laugh at this point as im done crying)

BH, after reading your WH's letter to the OW skank on his thread, I TOTALLY see why you're not in recovery. They are in a love-hate relationship, and that's a continued A. Even if he doesn't want to admit it, he's capable of feeling love. Only someone who was in love, then scorned would write the way he did. Sorry! Hope he starts to own it and then leaves that toxic situation.

Hey Im,
i really make an effort not to read WH thread as to be honest he hurts me in real life everyday with stupid actions/comments i dont need to read about it as well. I do know he posted NC letter as he told me and i suspect this was as a result of frustration on his part that NO ONE beleives he has no feelings for OW and working together is acceptable. Im sure he will soon be told otherwise by wise MB members. I do feel sorry for the guy sometimes, not easy living in la la land.
I was happy with NC letter as it was sweet revenge for me and gave me great satisfaction OW was humiliated however this was shrort lives as she did not react to letter in any way. She acted like she never got it and the joke was on him. I mean she never cared about him one bit he was a challenge for her and she knows what she is so didnt particularly care about his opinion.
The NC letter gave me security that no matter how much of a horrid person she was she wouldnt try to resume affair after getting letter like that and there was no way he had the guts to approach her after a letter like that, It has intimate details that only the two of them would have know about.

I have never for one second beleived that we have been in recovery however my feelings were sedated for 6 months of that year due to AD's and i guess that helped him get away with alot. Now im off the AD's its all biting him in the backside as im can think clearly again and i am acting on issues rather than sitting on my bottom expecting it all to go away etc

Right everyone

here is whats happening

THIS IS IT I cant stress this enough, I HAVE HAD ENOUGH.

Massive fight tonight, cried and still crying, realising im chasing a dream here by expecting WS to care about me or any of my EM's. I can honestly say NONE of my EM's have been met in a year and im starting to see im naive stupid and deluded to think this is going to change. I nearly lost my life and my children nearly lost their mother because of this situation and i just cant do this anymore.
One comment too far, read GloveOil present to his wife poem with WS, his comments just broke me. Excuses why he isnt a great writer etc when all i needed to hear that he wants to feel taht way about me etc.

The penny has dropped im just an unlovable and thats it no matter what plan i follow im never going to be good enough for WS im done trying chasing this dream.

I told WS that i would gladly swap the 10 years together we shared for the 2 months he shared with OW because in those two months he showed her more love and devotion that he has shown me in our whole marriage.

WS paniking, sent request for coaching centre appointmet, i on the other hand give up! i give up on trying to make him a better human being steve isnt a miracle worker.

Picture this right now im in bed crying like a baby as im typing this, WS sitting opposite me scratching his head not saying a word of comfort, what have i ever done to him to make him hate me so?
I got to go as getting too hard to type and sob at the same time. sorry for bothering you folks and thanks for your help so far.

Eternally grateful

Bh,

I'm so sorry you were feeling that way in the early hours of this morning. It's quite likely that the worst of your anger has subsided now. I know I used to feel as you did and then change my mind several times a day.

Please do not either give up on the marriage or go away from this board yet.

It is not a bad idea for you to let your H do the work now, and for you only to return emotionally to the marriage when you see effort and change in him. You have done every scrap of the work so far, up to and including thinking of your friend JJ as a source of work, talking to her about it and pushing your H uphill to write his CV. I do think that enough is more than enough and H needs to be active now in saving his marriage.

I hope you will give Steve Harley a chance, now that a coaching session seems likely to materialise. Don't take the attitude that he is not a miracle worker. You have nothing to lose and potentially much to gain from listening to him, and especially, from seeing what your H does after listening to him.

You are quite right that you cannot make H a better human being, and you should not try. It is up to him now to move your marriage to the beginning of recovery. Please wait and see whether he does anything concrete towards that and take care of yourself and the kids for now. Please post and tell us how you are today.

Thanks SC,

Its now mornign, i fell asleep crying no progress from WS after scratching his head and saying nothing, he just walked away downstairs and lef me to rot as usual.
Little communication this morning and im still feeling exactly the same as i did last night, no change.

For those of you concerned about my preious self harm history please let me assure you that i havent had any thoughts that will lead to me selfharming, I am safe and the children are well.

I have asked WS to leave, he hasnt acted on my request, What do i do now, pack his stuff for him or make him pack them?

Bh, I don't think you should ask him to leave now. You are making decisions when you are very upset, and that is not a good idea. I think you should grit your teeth, engage in no more marriage or affair talk for now with your H (come to this board, though) and wait until you each have your session with Steve.

Very few people here would say that a marriage should be preserved at all costs, but I think most would say that you should wait for your emotions to settle down, and see whether you have the resolve to work at this after a few months, not days or weeks, of concerted MB efforts. Your children will be affected by separation and divorce, and if they can have happy parents and a stable family life they will be much better off in every way. You should be able to speak to Steve in no more than a week, so very little would be lost by waiting, and there might be much gain.

I know you have been battling this affair for a year, but, because you only came here a few days ago and began to see what is needed for recovery, it feels as if D Day was only last week. Your H might get the new job he is after, and that alone will make you feel different and not in fear every time he goes to work. Please at least wait to speak to Steve, and to find out about the job, if you can.

The problem is that your WH's affair is ongoing, as he sees the OW daily. The letter he wrote was NOT a NC letter. NC stands for NO CONTACT. That letter was a "I hate your guts but I'll see you every day" letter. Your marriage experiences a DDay every day for a year, so of course you're not in recovery.
Try establishing TRUE NC for a few weeks and see if things improve in terms of your own self esteem.

WH has not been to work since Sunday, we both took time off to talk sort things out so for the last 3 days ateast contact with OW has not been an issue. Job update is that he has sent resume and covering letter with my friend JJ who came over again last night to personally collect them and prsonally hand them into her HR department and her words are she would happily put her job reputation on line to guarantee WS as she has know us 10 years and know that he is not work shy and committed to doing good job when he is at work (ironic cant do that at home).

I dont know if i can live in same house as him and see his lack of care daily. I got myself out of bed going to spend some time on me and doing my hair/nails etc just cause im done moping. Need to get on with my life with or without him and that starts today he is still clearly not on board as downstairs doing his own thing even though he knows that when kids go to bed tonight he needs to pack his stuff.

Guys lets face facts here the man just doesent care about me, or his kids. So why should i care about him anymore?

Im not happy and im not glad this is happening but im at peace that i have personally tryed everything in my power to make things work and will be able to look my children in the face and say to them that i have tryed so my conscience is clear (wonder if he will be able to say the same).

Yes being on this site has brought up dormant feelings and made D-day feel like it was only yesterday and i think thats a good thing as we all agree living in fog never helped anyone.


I feel so sorry for him, he will have nothing and no one once he looses me and he just wont realise that in time to help himself. Sad sad man.

I'm not sure of the wisdom of having WH pack up and leave like a coward in the middle of the night. Then what will the kids think? You need to sit down with the four of them TOGETHER and explain what you're about to do.
Too hard?
Then maybe you're not ready to do it yet.
If you let him slink away in the middle of the night, the boys will never forgive either of you. You will have uprooted their confidence. You really CAN'T do that.
Sit down with a counselor and figure out how to break this to the boys if you really plan to D. Don't wreck their future just because you're mad.
Take a deep breath. None of this has to happen tonight. It's not like you're in immediate physical danger. Relax and figure this out. You waited a year. You can wait a little longer.

BH, you had a plan, remember? The plan was made when you were feeling calm and unemotional. Stick to the plan.

TA

OK picture this, im sitting at home running around doing housework hat he couldnt get done this morning because supposedly he was thinking about us (no evidence to support that statement by the way, He is over at his parents house with the kids sorting out his fathers computer issues. Has been there 3 hours now. Calld his mum (as he wouldnt answer cell phone) and kindly advised her that kids need bathing/dinner and WS needs to bring kids home (i end up looking like evil person cause im saying something WS should be saying to his mum not me!) Feel horrible as mum shocked i was firm in my request when normally i put his familys needs about my own family an would have let him stay there as long as he needed to sort out PC without complaint (but to be honest state of house right now really getting to me im a cleaning freack and house is a tip, kids have school in the morning and need to be bathed and fed and go to bed at reasonable time.

So any minute now WS should be home and im left to do everything while dealing with A issues and breack up too.

Thank God you guys are here or i would be feeling so on my own right now.

Regarding moving in the night i dont want kids to see daddy packing his stuff, he will be living with his parent (10 mins away) and will be here in the morning to take them to school etc so they wont notice he has gone straight away. I dont know how to sit them down yet but ill discuss with WS once anger subides as now he risks getting phisically maimed if he comes anywhere near me unless he is approaching me to do something positive.

PS there has never been violence in our relationship and im not violent person at all (otherwise OW would have been 6ft under by now) so above statement was made to demonstrate level of anger not to be taken literally

BH - I am so sorry you are going through this. You seemed so strong a few days ago. I am feeling at the end of my rope today as well. But... maybe this is the wake up call he needs? I don't know. I hate that we are all going through these difficult times. Pray. Sometimes it is the only thing that gets me through.

I'm sorry you are feeling done. I do agree with others advice. You should not make decisions when you are so emotional. It is easy for me to say, not as easy to take my own advice. I am counting days until plan B.

Bh,

If you do go through with separating tonight (which I hope you do not), please go through with the telephone coaching when an appointment comes through.

Bh,

TogetherAlone has a bit of a gift for helping buffoons like me & your husband see ourselves as we are. She's weighed in with him, I hope he takes it to heart. Stand your ground as you are, but don't give up.

Gloveoil im glad your posting on here cause i have yet to read a single one of your posts without crying my eyes out, you have got it spot on with what WS should do TONIGHT when you postd on his forum. You seem to be one of the few people that does get to WS (especially after reading gift to wife poem) so please carry on helping him for my sake. YOU ARE getting to him and thats good PLEASE PLSEASE PLSEASE keep helping him

BH

Don't give up yet. MBers is new to him too and he needs a bit of time to think this through and do the right thing. He certainly has potential and for now is still foggy.

You need to keep him with you and keep him close.

Put your emotional head to one side and think this through logically.

I really think you have lots of chance- him moving out will not improve the situation at all.

COncentrate on you for sure - make sure you are looking after yourself,

I'm trying to discover faith at the mo - praying sure helps me chose the right path - give it another go.

ST

PS WS mother just called asking me to reconsider kicking him out, said he was paniking etc but was feeling too tiered to think clearly.
Im impressed as i didnt tell ayone a part from you guys and him about him leaving tonight (mostly because most of my firends will gladly help throw his clothes out the window if i let them as they witnessed my pain and lack of progress with him) I wanted this to be my decision so didnt tell anyone a part from you guys and WS. So WS must have told his own mother however Annoyed to the Max as she is making excuses for him as he has made excuses for him that strangely resounded excuses he has been making on here and been told to OWN (clearly he hasnt owned a thing yet then)

WTF he had MOMMY call for him...because he's "tired"?

What about YOU?

The nerve.

I've kept quiet, but I read his thread, then I read here and I can't be silent.

He needs to seriously grow a set and DO instead of sitting around scratching his head and wondering why you're not magically okay.

ARGH!

You're not going to make any progress with him over at Mommie's house. Get him to spend the night, screw the mom/dad's computer. They can hire someone. Give him a list of things that have to happen TODAY for you to consider working on recovery. Then give him a list of things that will need to happen SOON (like this month) for continued work. His decision. He either does them or he's out. Actions speak. I'm only listening to his "I'm so emotionally dead" babble for a week now, and I'm sick of hearing it. I can only imagine how aggravated you must be.
Tell him to SHOW what he wants the M to be, not tell you. That shouldn't take too much emotion on his part. Own your mistakes yllanoitomE. Stop being a coward.

Hey everyone, Housework done, kids in bed and finally managed to have shower, do hair and basically just catch up on some girly bits, feeling better (WS sitting downstairs on MB, progress made by him 0, attempt at making progress by him 0 chances of him being asked to leave today too high to put into numbers)

So im taking time to reply to posts

First thank you so much for caring, its so amazing to find people in like you guys who despite having the urge to run a mile from A and hide head in the sand you go on here and help others, it amazes me and makes me have faith in the human race.

Claygal sorry to hear your having tough day i have been rubbish helper today and promise to catch up with whats going on with you today i promise.

SugarCane, I wont allow him to stay in this house tonight unless he gets off his bottom an actually do something to help himself and me. I just cant take anymore stupid comments and daily humiliations just cause he conviniantly convinced himself he is a freack of nature that has no emotions. Im not expecting him to climb mount everest tonight but i do want to see him atleast putting one foot in front of another and starting to take steps towards it. Obviously too much to ask!
Telephone coaching appointment requested awaiting reply from coaching centre, cant do anything else about that.

to be continued WS wants to Talk again
more talk talk talk and NO ACTIONS for me, yipeeee (not)

I've asked him what ACTIONS he's made to meet your ENs at least 3 times.

Instead of answering me and telling me what he is actively doing for you, he's focused on his stupid arsed letter to the OW and everyone's response to that.

I do not think he "gets" that it's is inaction - his lack of actions to back up words - that has pushed you this far.

I think he's calling your bluff. I don't think he "gets" how far he's pushed you and how empty your Love Bank is. Not only that, I get the feeling that he thinks this is YOUR problem and not his.

Good job on sorting you.

I hope he comes to you with some good talk and shows that he has been taking something in. He's certainly heard enough of the same thing over and over - some of it should have sunk in.

If there is any glimmer - fly with it for now, more will start to come and then when emotions are slighty more even you will then be able to reflect on any changes in him more effectively

THinking of you

Please refer to post i just put on his thread, he is now trying to negotiate way to put things on hold until steve call. I stand by what i want, IM NOT WAITING FOR STEVE CALL until he shows that he has some little piece of humanity (that theres hope Steve can pull it out of him etc) cause right now all i see is empty negotiation, no begging no pleading and no way near saying how much he wants to be here and why he wants to be here and that i mean anything to him.
I have spent a year doing things his way and compromising, he got to show me even an ounce of progress, or he can go keep his pride warm tonight at his parents house.

WS gone to have thinking time again, im calm cool and collected, no shouting patronising or threats, reiterated need him to go or DO no more excuses his options are clear so im continuing my interrupted thread that i started above replying to earlyer threads (got to keep busy so not to panik and take less than what i have asked for).

GloveOil - i know staytogether and everyone been amazing but apparently he is right and we are all wrong so hey, isnt it nice how he thinks that the world revolves around himself.
Have you noticed that WS has not replyed to your comments, he knows he cant make excuses to you as your A time line is same as his and yet u made progress he hasnt, your the biggest threat he has on this forum because of this.

Staytogether- "Don't give up yet. MBers is new to him too and he needs a bit of time to think this through and do the right thing. He certainly has potential and for now is still foggy."
Agree with you however he CANNOT see that i will tolerate anymore complaicency from him, hes the one who said "I guess the reason why i never got off my basckside and done anything to repair Marriage was because i have never felt i truly lost you throughout this" when someone says something like that to you what choice does it leave you but to show him what loosing me is like!

Ill have to clarify this cause however angry i get im always fair, his mum called to say kids and WS on their way back home. i apologised about earlyer conversation and told her i was stressed because housework didnt get done etc she said "and why do you think housework didnt get done?". I knew at that point WS had spoken to her and me and MIL got into converstion about what was going on, i can honestly say she didnt phone on his behalf etc but im annoyed because he used the same excuses he supposedly is now owning with his mum. Shes a sweet lady and still finds it hard to beleive WS did that to his family having brought him up with good morals etc, she is along the same lines as him (OW evil duped her little son into affair etc), i dont want to hurt her by revealing extent of manipulation WS did during affair so let her think what she wants. She also feels guilty because affair started to get serious when WS was staying with her after we had two weeks apart because he was having inapopriate contact with other women on net.
to be continued ...

maybe you should asking him what actions hes made to meet my NEEDS not EMOTIONAL NEEDS. As every time anyone mentions E word off we go on the same "im not emotional" rollercoaster, he doesent get that we are talking about my EMOTIONAL needs not HIS.

Can you beleive this guy had a full blown affair yet he s playing dumb cause of wordings being used on post! now you can appreciate my shock at Affair.

Quick update, i have now received a half decent list of things WS is owning up to pre- post and during A. (WS composed list unaided by me and without me suggesting/hinting at is so give yoursleves a gold star for breacking through to him, i was on here when he did it and i didnt even know he was doing it as was really hoping and concentrating on grovelling first)

Glad about progress but still hurt as the list was about HIM and HIS owning and it will stay that way until he shows owning in action, behaviour and future communications.

Problem is (and i know im a nightmare cause i nitpick at things) but he hasnt done anything to ACTUALLY meet my EM's the owning list as i said is just about him and him recognising what he did wrong. Did get short sharp apology after we went through the list but thats, it. Am i wrong not be satisfied with that?

Need him to DO not just say, promise etc cause i have heard that for a year.

NOPE!

thanks John, needed the sanity check.

BH - Your WH sounds like mine. He is still in fog. Has said he wants to come home, but has done NOTHING to facilitate return. He is such a chicken that he doesn't even really talk to girls. Maybe one phone call per week. They just continue to get more and more angry with him. I know the feeling of it not being enough.

I do think that the list is progress, though not enough. Baby steps? Was he raised in a way that he didn't have to be acountable for things? Just wondering... Mine was.

I know the feeling of being done. I have felt it before, but then it subsides. My heart is breaking for you. Wish I could be there to hug you and kick him in the ******! What is with these men and their stupid behavior!!!???

I'm praying for you.

Just call me "JT". That's what everyone else here calls me

Thanks clay just posted on your thread and caught up with WH, men/women that are wayward are hard to deal with but one day they will appreciate what BS do for them and i truly beleive that. Just think of the possiblity that one day your WS will appreciate all your hard work and fall in love with you all over again in a better deeper way (im not saying that he doesent love you now, im sure he does under that silly fog).

My WS had great upbringing, only child (i think thats why hes so selfish) and had pleanty of love and care. but regardless of upringing there are always people who excel expectations (Ie child of drunk parents might not actually turn out to be drunk himself like statistics suggest but might turn into a brilliant human who uses his experience to excel not to hold him back) We both want the best for the people we love and thats not a crime so forget about WS upbringing, he can excel if he wants to no matter how much he was facilitated into not being made accountable for things by his parents as a child.

Thanks for hug and sending one back right to you. Keep up the good work.

Your husband is developmentally stunted - on purpose because it serves his purpose as "excusable" behavior because of .... fill in the blank.

What he really lacks is empathy - and the ability to "get" the impact of his behavior on others.

If you do decide to stay with him, you're going to need to have him work with Steve on a regular basis because Steve won't take his b.s. excuses about "I don't feel" crap.

One thing to develop empathy, he needs constant and consistent feedback on how his actions and behaviors impact others.

Have you "overcompensated" in this marriage to make things smooth and easy for him by not telling him when he's "ouched" you?

If I'd had time last night, I was going to ask you if he was an only child. I could smell it.

I'm an only child too. I recognise the symptoms.

He's spoiled.

TA

Yep. Only children often believe the world revolves around them. They feel ENTITLED. Your WH fits that bill.

Hey Everyone

Quick update as need some sleep today, got to be up at 5am to got to work so going to keep it short tonight.

Overall day was ok no big issues, WS is at work right now with OW so feeling a bit blue plus I know that this isnt relevant to my marital issues but hate today as its the date of when my son stopped breathing in the night and was resussitated. In england its fireworks night and he really hates fireworks (he was 9 months old when incident happened so logically he cant have memory of that night however he has been acting very different to his usual self today so im convinced he feels something that cant be explained). That was the worst night of my life, and although he is 5 now and he is healthy I still struggle on the anniversary of that day. I have been spending the day with him, cuddling up and just appreciating the fact that i didnt loose him that night, he is such a beautiful and gentle child and I love him so much. Each of my babies has their on special trait and Im feeling so blessed to have them.

Marriage wise things are ok, im still not happy and having feelings that im worried about (not wanting WS near me, not wanting his cuddles or kisses and just generally glad he is a work so i can have some space from him).
On the good news side of things I have booked double appointment for Thursday morning with Steve H for telephone coaching. The appointment has been confirmed and looking forward to getting help. Booked a double first appointment as think we need it for first appointment so each of us can speack to steve together and alone.

Book SAA not here yet (supid british postal strikes) so havent started reading it.
WS did attempt to get on knees and read off a piece of paper some robotic jargon, so he finally is DOING something even if he isnt getting it right brounie points for trying.

It was really painful going through the owned things list with him last night and did cross off things he thought he owned but when I interrogated further he clearly didnt so agreed to keep off list until he soulsearches further and owns.

That list is useless until he starts to DO and not just SAY.

One thing that is getting really clear is that WS is understanding things more easly since being on MB. I almost feel like his head is literally opening up and he is taking in all the inforation, and he is interested in the information not just doing it for appearances sake. Everytime i mention reading certain threads (like the images of affair one) he asks about it, he wants to know the answers etc not just glazed expression i have gotten used to seeing for months. I feel he has finally let go of wishing the situaion would just disappear attitude.

So good progress overall. Thanks again to everyone for your continued care and help for my family its so appreciated Its not possible to put into words.

Hey BH - it does sound like your WH is making some progress. Wish mine would. Starting to wonder if there is any hope for my marriage.

You sound better today, and I am glad for that. Don't give up yet. At least yours is open and hopefully listening. What I would give for that right now...

Things here pretty much the same. getting ready to post on my thread.

Going to plan B next week if I can wait that long

Clay, although I didnt know about MB I did instinctivly follow plan A (give or take a few LB's along the way) after D-day and it was the hardest thing i ever did, I mean who in their right mind sleeps with WS 12 hours after discovering A? Plan A is great and even though my WS is mostly an oaf, he has thanked me for helping him find his way back to me when A was over.
I used to have to listen to phraises like "i didnt have an affair, i had a relationship within a relationship", I actually had to get the dictionary out and make him read the definition of what an affair was before he finally started referring to his actions as an A. Its funny when I remember it now but at the time I was ready to jump off a cliff the situation seamed so hopeless. There are pleanty of good signs you have to hold on to. And you still have a card up your sleaves to play (plan B) so please try not to feel so hopeless about situation. I promise you one way or the other there is an end in sight for all this mess and pain.

yes. you are right. He does keep calling or stopping by. I guess that is a good sign. I'm hoping plan B will be a rude awakening for him.

If getting that letter gets no reaction out of him then I will be lost for words and as you can see from my thread that doesent happen often.

Hey BH

You know your mind and your wants and needs as a betrayed wife really well. You seem very strong and determined.

You are doing a great job. Keep up the good work and I am pleased that your WH is beginning to piece things together too.

Nothing more to add really.

There have been other complications in my M too but it took me months to reconnect emotionally with my H - I blocked him out from me after my A. Once he starts working with the material, he'll see what he is missing.

I see from his thread that SAA has arrived. Hope you have a good weekend.

Thanks so much for your kind words staytogether, im sorry i have been too wrapped up with my stupid situation and havent read your thread yet and promise to do so tonight.
I am scared by the strength of my repulsed feelings that i have for WS. I used to miss him and miss being near him, now i really dont care. I used to feel love when i look at him now i really dont, i really hope i havent shut down beyond repair and looking forward to coaching with steve on Thursday to get further help on that one. Im unfortunate in the sense that when i am hurt i have developed a really good survival tactic of shutting other persons out of my heart.

Quick update on today...(this is beginning to sound like a daily journal lol)

Woke up at 5am to get ready for work, as i was walking around the house getting ready found 8 notes in total stating "you are beautiful because ...." and stating reasong why WS thought i was beautiful.
Nice gesture and had he done that 6 months ago i would have been swooning at his feet, but however horrible you think im being by saying this, i just didnt care why he thought i was beautiful (i know im being a horrid woman but I promised to be honest on here so im doing so).
Was at work till 2pm, during my break called WS to ask regarding list of things i had left for him to do housework wise that needed urgent attention, got into argument as WS complaining he isnt getting much time to read MB and work on M. He does have a poing but im really feeling exhausted, been sick in bed vomiting with feover and shivers for 2 weeks, today was first day back at work and still not feeling 100% so just wanted to get home catch up on my share of housework and go bed.
Got home and went straight back out to pick up kids from school, WS left for work at 2:45 so only had contact for 30 mins and even then we were mostly discussing his work situation as he is scared he might get sacked today for having taken time off at the beginning of this week to sort out latest M chrisis resulting from A.
WS did manage to show me notebook he bought to keep thoughts ideas and progress regarding making marriage work, so he is definitley on board now. Only thing i dont know how long his journey will last this time. He may get off at the next stop or carry on travelling until the final destingation (better marriage).
Right now WS at work, kids asleep and im starting to nod off in front of PC as exhausted. Dont feel sad/bad today, and overall good day.

Thanks again for all your continued interest and help for my horrid situation. Bless you all.

Continue to journal here. As long as we don't have another system crash, it will be a great source of reference for you later. I look back at my old posts all the time. I actually wish I had written MORE so I could remember some of the foggy specifics. You'd be surprised at how much you'll forget due to the stress.

I have just been trying to catch up on your thread, read the one about meeting up for England users, Didnt realise some of you are so close by, im in London! Its so scary to to realise there are people going through this in the same area as me.

Hey everyone,

Im here again for the daily update, hope your not getting to annoyed with me for posting daily but hopefully this journal will help me and eventually someone else if it works out ok.


Day was ok overall, not much got done marriage wise as we literally live in a circus, between kids and puppies right now its tough to get a chance to have a proper meal never mind a conversation. Managed to grab an hour this afternoon I had urge to read my diary. I tryed to keep a diary in February this year due to the ovelwhelming feelings i had but i only managed it for a month but beleive me reading just a month of entries was enough for me, It was a bad month because it was the month i took the overdose so it really highlited the time i was at my worse. Read diary to WS and got the usual silence so gave up on working with him today, he is annoyed because he wanted to read SAA with me and im just too drained to invest anymore emotions into this situation today. LB is truly empty for now.

Second significant thought of day happened when i was thinking about the way i dont like WS right now, I might love him at some level but i really dont like him, and am not at all sad when he is away from me. This led to me going back to one of the posts on here that is starting to ring very true. Finding MB has sort of catapulted me back to D-Day (that and coming off antidepressant), when D-Day occurred one of the first thing that happened to me was that i missed, grieved and pined for my husband and who i thought he was. I even went to the spot where he first told me he loved me (on my own) and said goodbye to him, i said goodbye to the man i thought i knew for 10 years, the sweet loving man who had never hurt me, the sweet shy guy i had married and most of all the sweet loving guy i had trusted so much. I came back home and was listening to songs about loosing your best friend and soumate for days, although WS was still living at home I just kept sobbing and saying " I just want my husband back, who are you? i dont want you Please give me my husband back".

I still look at the pictures of us before the affair and feel so much love for the man in those pictures, i miss him and would give anything to have him back. But then i turn around and see my WS standing there and I feel the same as i did on D-Day, who is this monster and where is my loving H?

Am I stopping any chance of recovery by pining for something im never going to have? if I am how do i snap out of it?

How do you get over it?

You don't. You just keep living with it day by day until one day you realize you don't mind carrying it around with you anymore.

A few nights ago, I said to my FWW in bed, "I love you so much. I never want to lose you again."

"You never lost me, honey. I never left you."

That wasn't what I meant... but I doubt she'll ever understand. I had lost her heart to another man, and the fact that she physically lived in our house the whole time was no consolation.

Some of you have had to endure their presence during withdrawal and false recoveries...they never left the home so you never had a reprieve from seeing them. On the other hand,when they leave, you miss the sound of their voice and the noise caused by their presence in the home. There's a trade off either way.
In my case, H is in his own place for 11 months now. I miss the heck out of him and the house is empty without him. However, when I do see him, I feel a distance between us because he's so foggy and when I leave, I feel relieved. I think the prospect of recovery in my case is protracted, but perhaps more tolerable. Not sure.
I miss the man I married too. Even though we reminisce and talk to each other daily, it feels platonic and friendly, but nothing more. He's like a friend to me. There's no romance because the fog hasn't lifted.
Such sloooowwww progress. Sometimes so slow that it feels like the slight movement of a techtonic plate. Eventually things are going to shake up. No one can stay in this state of limbo/inertia indefinitely.
It's hard to say who has it easier or better. I haven't yet had the chance to process my anger with him because I don't feel the marriage is strong enough to endure it. With time...
W

Hi BH,

I think what Barnboy said is something for you to think on.

But as well...

Many realise that once they start working MB there M wasn't wuite as good as they thought it was.

When both of you start pulling together at the same time to work on the M - if you decide you want to - which i think you must do, otherwise you wouldn't be asking the questions you do. Then you can decide to work on a new, better M. Both my H and I have changed so much since we have been working this plan that the new M will be different too and so much better.

Hey Barnboy, warioresse and Staytogether,
I appreciate your thought and contribution to my clatest dilemma and barnboy I really cant immagine thinking that i had lost my H love at any point, he has always shown me love in one way or another even during A, he may have said he didnt love me in anger but i could still see he did in his actions.
Warioresse your braver than i would ever be in your situation, had WS left home i would have cut him off emotionally within the first few months as no matter how much I love him im not patient and most of all I have a strong cut off system that i have had to develop since childhood, I havent had room for people that hurt me in my life and I have discarded good friends and family before when they have hurt me and never looked back. I know it may sound strange to you and may make you question weather i love my H but having been tortured in childhood (basically my mother shot my father when i was 2 after discovering he was having yet another A he survived but my mother had to serve a prison term so my grandparents brought me up and i was told they were my parents until my mother showed up one day when i was eight and took me away from them and revealed that my nan was not my mother but she was my mother, i was so distressed that i had to shut my nan off because i wanted to be with her so much and blamed her for handing me back to my mother, my mother was so selfish by nature that put me in danger repeatedly). I cant help but not want nor welcome pain and react to it in the extreme by cutting people off, I dont like this trait in myself and wish i was more forgiving and less self-protecting but this instinct has been imbedded in me for such a long time now.

Regarding missing my husband i guess what im trying to say is that i miss who i thought he was, up util the affair he was pure and sweet (I was the only woman he had ever slept with and he was the only man i had slept with), He was shy and so so caring, he was innocent and almost childlike. Now I have had to realise he is a man, im no longer the only one he has been intimate with, he is capable of making horrific decisions etc.

I dont know how else do desribe it really, hes just not the man i married and all i can do is get to know him all over again, say goodbye to the love of my life and start again with someone who looks like him but is not him.

I understand exactly what you are going through emotionally. My husband and I were the first and only for each other and after 28 years together, married 25 I can honestly say I never wanted anyone else. I told my WH husband a while ago that i was hurt and devestated to realize that I was now the first woman he ever wanted in his bed, not the only. That realization literally shook me to the bone, made me sick to my stomach. I guess I never realized what a gift I took for granted. Never having to worry about anyone else, never trying to measure up to anyone else physically or emotionally. Now all that is gone, everything I do I wonder, did she? My story as far as I know did not prgress past the EA however, i still wonder about what he thought, felt, fantisized about regarding her. He has said he wanted her physiclly, there were thoughts and desires just not the opportunity. They shared favorite songs, jokes, thoughts...she invaded every private area of my life with my husband. He too, is only in the pictures of the past, he is different, i am trying to learn who this man is so that i can love him the way he needs it. my hope is that we can oneday look at the people in the photos and realize we are better, stronger, happier and more in love then we could have ever imagined. Hope........it is the thread that holds me together

barnboy, you have literally brought me to tears, that is exactly how i feel, what has and did happen. knowing someone else has/had his heart, mind, eyes crippled me. I use to be able to see myself in his eyes, I think that was the hardest thing to walk through. When we were working this out, i told him that and as the months progressed with plan a he use to ask me if i could see me in his eyes yet. i don't think he will ever understand that pain. I do see myself there most of the time, but I'm not sure that i recognize his eyes anymore. how sad, when does this stop being so so so sad.....

Blindsidebetty you have described exactly how i feel about WS PA, and unfortunately not many people understand that type of hurt as normally both partners would each have had intinate experiances with previous partners before marriage therefore the loss of being the only one etc is not present. In my case it wasnt planned and it wasnt a religious reason why my WS ended up being my one and only, but as we had got together at 18 and 19 there simply hadnt been anyone who i had been serious enough about to share myself with before WS. In his case he has always been shy with girls and although he had a girlfriend before me (who is now a great family friend and Godmother to our children) it never developed into a phisical relationship as they were both too young. This special bond that we shared became more importaint as our marriage developed, we both loved the fact that neither of us had previous sexual partners and really appreciated it. Now thats gone, and it kills me when i think about it. He used the same methods that he had developed with me in bed on her and that really upsets me, for example when she was unresponsive to him in bed he kissed her neck which is something he knew to do because thats something i liked, now i wont allow him near my neck, it makes me phisically sick him even talking about it, that was something i enjoyed that now he has destroyed.
However I do feel lucky as he never loved OW, even though he told her he did, this is something that WS has maintained even through the majorly foggy state, he explained that he told her he loved her because he wanted to make her feel special after she had shared herself with him phisically (little did he know at the time that she was an easy so and so and has had more sexual encounters than a professional prostitute).


PS daily update, we read first chapter of SAA and I can honestly say WS is absorbing information incedibly well, he is interested and learning from the book in a way that has exceeded my expectations. Looking forward to coaching on thursday as if the book is getting through to him then God only knows what Steve is going to do with him.

Only worrying thing about WS (and i mean this lightly) is that he has taken to making lists of stuff to do obsessivly, he has a list of things he wants to empathise with, a list of things he wants to do to show owning etc, its quite funny watching him being enlightened by MB is like he has discovered a treasure island and cant wait to start digging for treasure so making lists of all the things he need to start digging, the places he needs to start digging etc. Im getting really exited this might work after all, but then it could just be delerium as read SAA till 330 am had 2 hours sleep got up went to work, got home at 2pm and after housework/kids etc this is the first chance im getting to sit down and im past being tiered.

my WS and i were 16 and 18, we grew up together, i know how you feel about learningn each others wants, needs, desires and fulfilling them. Even though, for now this looks like an EA just the knowledge that he thought about what he wanted to do to her, that he master........to thoughts of her that he had songs that made him think of her, how could all this happen so quickly, how could 28 years of being the only one be thrown away so fast without a second thought.

i try to keep the thoughts out of my head when we make love, he also said now and then that he didn't, doesn't love her, he did not know her that well, which always cracks me up, he knew her well enough to start all this crap! but i hold tightly to the fact that he might be telling me the truth, i hope he doesn't love her, never did and never will

Blindsbetty, I dont beleive for one minute that any WS love the OW they get involved with because Loving someone means not duping them (telling them they are single etc when infact they are married) Loving someone doesent involve getting them involved in your own mess of family situation, marriage wrecking and most of all truly Loving someone does not involve the incredible cake eating selfishness WS take part in when having an A.
I think that WS are not capable of loving in any true sense when they are involved in wayward bubble.

Let me put it this way, if i was unahappy in my marriage and was unfortunate enough to meet someone else and start caring about them, i would make an effort to end my marriage first, i would then give myself time to recover from ending my marriage and make sure of my feelings towards marriage (a year would be the minimum time) and end contact with other person while i was doing this, then if a year or so on i have sorted my thoughts out i would start considering getting involved etc, thats the only way i would truly be able to show love for another human, not by dragging them in my mess, not by letting people think they are responsible for my marriage brakedown, not by giving people the chance to hate that person and let that person bear the guilt of the end of my marriage.

So in summary rest assured your WS never loved her and certainly doesent love her now as he is with you. Could you live with someone else if the person you loved was available to you?

Update of the day,

Hey everyone,
Things are getting better by the day, WS committing (a bit too much sometimes) to reading SAA, learinig about himself and even working on empathy, got home from work yesterday and didnt even get a chance to take my coat off before i was presented with massive list of empathy items that he feels when he tryes to put himself in my shoes. Was a nice thing for him to do and to put himself through although i would have appreciated apology following empathy as he now seems to have a tiny glimpse into my pain and apologising for what he did to me would have been perfect.

Reading SAA, have got past first chapters, last time we read it WS revealed another crushing intimate detail of A (basically one night OW and WS met at her parents house, they were out so she got covers downstairs and they spend 15-20 mins kissing under the covers, this was their first sexual contact so it really burned when i found out about it, at some stage she reached down and unzipped his pants and touched him, but when she realised he didnt have an erection she stopped and just cuddled) this took me by surprise and i literally jumped out of bed saying ewww ewww ewwww, i was really repulsed by that detail and as i thought i knew everything this latest detail catapulted me into horrid images of them two doing the nasty again. WS was good though because instead of sitting there like a lemon he helped me process images and get rid of them (this is MASSIVE progress).

Feeling more relaxed overall, however getting scared of coaching on thursday. Now that WS is cooperating with the MB principals its clouding my emotions and im unsure of what to tackle first.

Great thing happened yesterday and today and this is all about feeding my vindictive side but hey i got to get my kicks somewhere, its been a tough road and im finally smiling again. Basically WS manager from a store he used to work at just transferred to my WS store and is now in senior managment (basically above WS and OW), as my WS and this manager (lets refer to him as GG) have always been great friends as he also has an italian wife and lots of children and my WS used to get his advise on family life etc all the time. WS decided that as GG is a good friend he should tell him about A before he starts at the store so he wount feel betrayed when he hears about it from other members of staff rather than his friend my WS. GG was totally shocked and wanted to talk to me on the phone so I filled him in on the details of this OW carachter and behaviour has been etc and he was pleased that my WS and I had stuck together (I made a point of telling GG how strong me and WS are now because i didnt want him to think WS would still be dealing with A backlash at work therefore he is still a good employee and however much of a friend GG is he is still a senior manager.
GG told me that he will be keeping close eye on WS and OW for me and to rest assured he would phone me the minute he suspects anything as his W (that i have met a few times) would kill him if he didnt. GG then got back on the phone with WS and said "you lucky lucky Bast....., this was in the sense that he has a strong woman at home etc. I am pleased about this whole thing for two reasons, although WS is still changing jobs (waiting for interview to come through) i am assured that when he goes to work a person whom he respects etc is keeping eye on him, secondly when ws leaves job new managment will be aware of OW caracter and should she appoach another married man in store now she will get done big time. Today saw text from GG to WS saying "just met your OW, WTF? nevermind your wife, I would have slapped you if i had seen you with THAT!" Im still ROFL about that text. It took me 6 months to convince WS OW was really guly and no matter how many people told him she was he was adamant taht she wasnt pretty but not as ugly as i thought she was, now he is getting independant opinion , i rest my case, WS tect me from work 20 mins ago saying he saw her walk past today and finally dawned on him how ugly she is. Yipeeeee he has seen the light!!!!

All the good news over now for the depressing bit, im still not happy with what WS is doing, he seems to be working on himself all the time (HIS empathy, HIS owned list, HIS realisations) this is starting to get on my nerves, cause what about my EN's?? Hello its all good and well WS is working on being better person for us but this doesent help me right now!!! its a future thing, i want EA's met NOW!! I know i sound like a spoilt brat but the whole A was about him, the whole recovery is still about him, i just want something to be obviously about me.

Anyway thats where im at now,kids house and pets all in order again and work..... well thats a post for a different day (basically went from working in powerful company earning lots to cleaning floors at Macdonalds due to nervous brakedown post affair, where was his owning that one in his list??, I plan to train as a paramedic in December so please pray i get into the training program as its what i have always wanted to do and now i finally feel confident enough to apply)

brutally honest thank you for your response and in answer to your question, i am hoping to still be in love with this WH when he becomes available to me. he says he is now and in some ways he is. he is a different man, i hope better man as i hope i am a better woman, i hope we can be better together for each other. i can't ever imagine surviving this again. i know in my heart he didn't love/doesn't love her like he loves me, how could he. could 28 years really be that easy to erase with about 2 months? i would hope not and that is my hope. he says he's chosen to stay i just hope i can quit questioning why he is staying and how did all this happen. is it unrealistic to expect answeres?

Hey Betty, I wouldnt expect you to stop questioning anything, its your self protection mode. Have you read SAA with im. Its working wonders for us because it really explains alot.
Before SAA i though A happened to people who wanted to end their marriage but were too cowardly to tell their spouse so have A in order to make BS make the hard decision of splitting up. After SAA you realise that its actually very simple and basic, you and him both have emotional needs, if they arent met somehow you or him are likely to grab hold of someone who meets them. The EN's listed in the MB questionaire are simple and well set out, try printing out the Questionaire and doing it together, see what he is looking for and show him what you are looking for in order to achieve a better marriage. There is no such thing as crossing your fingers and hoping for the best take control of whats happening to you by understanding it.

we are waiting for our books as I type. We have done the EN questionairre, also the LB. So I am hoping that the book will give us some more direction, better defined direction to grow and recover this marriage. My whole story is on my thread, i'm swimming....but taking in water. i tell you, everytime i think i've found a harbor to float in a tsunami wave comes in and wipes me out. I guess after 7 months i want a little more remorse, apologies, heartfelt. even after reading all the threads that outline that these emotions are almost never there i still can't hope that maybe he will show some of these, like you said empathy alone just doesn't always cut it. he's willing to let me put in the hard work, don't know if he has even considered what his part in all this will be. dont get me wrong, he has come along way in meeting my needs, fessing up to what he did wrong and trying to make amends somewhat. but when the going gets tough or uncomfortable he backs off.aka NC Letter, he promises he will do it tonight after big blow-up last night. we will see, i've been waiting for this for 7 months.

Hey betty

You and me think so alike its scary. I wanted the apology groveling and just total surrender from him, and i still do but its just one of those things that the less i harp on about the more likely he might just do on his own one day.

The book surprised me so much, it just strips out all the stupid jargon that really gets you nowhere and gets you talking and communicating clearly with no room for misundertanding, Im never been the one to get self help books and was totally sceptical about this one but decided that it wouldnt hurt to try it and its been great, it explains things in a way even my "emotionally dead" WS can understand.

Have you tried getting WS to write an owned list like my WS did, that was the start of his personal recovery, just writing down the things he truly owns about the A, this means he has no way to justify etc. Maybe get him to read my WS thread to give him hope that he can do something to better the situation for both of you after all i do feel somewhat sorry for WS, it must be so hard being so much in the wrong, where do you start to fix it? The owned list gave my WS direction and has since made many lists stemming from that one that included the empathy one.

Regarding NC letter as im such a cow i would guilt him into it, ie you owe me this, if you do this i promise not to bring up A for 2 days etc. Bargain, guilt and trick if you have to, its not your fault he doesent get the importaince of NC letter, however he should understand by now that if it means so much to you he has to priorotise it. Do NC letter or sleep on the sofa tonight!

Hey brutallyhonest28
i do agree we seem to think alot alike, meybe that is why i feel so comfortable on your thread,however; i don't want to "thread jack" so forgive me if that is what this is. I haven't read your WS thread, when i realized you both were on here i guess i did't want or care what the WS had to say . having a problem caring about what mine says.

i consider myself a "self help" expert, always been the one to see the problem, find all i can find about it and decide which direction to take to fix it. that's how i tackled this whammy, went to my dr. went on anti-anxiety med, started seeing a therapist in hopes i could keep myself focused on the healthy aspects of coming out of this storm alive. found this site after therapist recommended it and really stayed silent for a long time, just soaking in all the comments and experience others had had. finally decided to post as an outlet for myself. i haven't told anyone about this except one real good friend in another state. so i started feeling overwhelmed with all this pent up emotion. also feeling guilty that others were going through what seemed to be so much worse, my story really doesn't compare, but then i thought well, its still my story, its still happening to me, it still hurts.

it does help to hear others say how their WS reacted and to see mine is following suit in alot of ways. I don't know what i'll do if he doesn't follow through with NC tonight, i know i will be hurt, and i worry that now after all this time, i am kind of weary of Plan A, but does he deserve Plan B? are we really there?

Hey BH, I can't work out exactly how much time you 2 have together at the mo and yes your husband should be doing lots to help you heal and telling GG was a fantastic step for both of you.

I found that I couldn't really begin to give my H time until I worked on me - I tried but he couldn't see that I was trying, which actually made me angry and resentful. Once I had done some work on me I was able to think more about his needs

He has done you a huge injustice and you are wanting to be compensated. He does have to work on himself though, other wise any fixes on the M will be superficial and fall apart very quickly.

However he should not use working on himself as an excuse not to spend time with you. I'm not sure what your ENs are but I know by reading the Harley books we were able to cover Conversation, affection, admiration and Oand H, I bet some of those are up there for you?

And I know that your time together is severely limited so you need to make the most of every second, plan out your time together carefully - play a game, get out a mail order catalogue and dream up a new room or decoration scheme and select you accessories or plan for Xmas together. (and reserve 1/2 hour to go through SaA

These will help to bring you together and he will begin to understand your needs more. Try to get some UA time in which doesn't involve working on M - just having fun or being productive together ( sad to say but me and my H actually enjoyed clearting out our airing cupboard together the other night).

ST

Hey Staytogether thanks for your thoughts,

Telling GG was really good because i now have an ally in that wretched store, i am still insiting he moves jobs and he is still going ahead with that however it is taking time and therefore having someone watching him was the best solution, this has just landed in my lap, i had no idea GG was moving to store until 2 days before he did. Met GG today again as had to pick him up from station because he was going to get lift to work with WS and WS was still eating lunch when GG arrived at the station so i offered to pick him up. This gave me golden opportunity to talk to GG about A without WS present however i behaved and just asked about his family etc.

As far as time together, thats just impossible to get ILawys not helpful due to WS grandmother having stroke shortly after A and this is keeping them busy with helping her out so i dont feel i am in a postition to ask them for help with childcare, infact i have been running around translating horpital lingo to them whenever H grandmother gets admitted, they were very scared because they are simple people and have not been in hospital situation in a long time so it helped that i went with them to talk to the doctors and make sure WH greandmother getting the right treatment. This has been very sweetly appreciated by inlaws as they have been extra supportive of our marriage. I have always got on well with them however MIL hurt me badly when she agreed With WS when he told her he didnt love me and she went as far as telling him that in her opinion he never did, he was with me because he was just attracted to "sad cases" (referring to my bad childhood). This conversation took place when he went to stay with them just before A started properely (however his mothers words only encoraged him to spend time with OW and this led to A intensifying later on during his stay at his parents) during a separation that i instigated frollowing the disovery of an EA on facebook with some other woman.

Oh this is getting tangled let me give you timeline maybe that will make more sense.

September 08- I discover Ws having massive EA with a woman in australia on Facebook, i aks him to send NC letter, he does. EA ends. Then a few days later discover WS has broken NC because he wanted to check she was ok (never mind the fact that i was literally on the bathroom floor sobbing during this contact). A week later he confessess to broken NC, I freack as i really couldnt understand his need to check that this stranger is ok yet not give two monkeys about my state of devastation. I ask him to go stay at his parents for 2 weeks to sort my thoughts out, i ask him to decide what he wanted, the family life i could offer him or be on his own. Gave him our love letters and family pictured accumulated during M and asked him to read them and try and see if this will help him make a decent decision (something he never did becaue he was building a friendship with OW and taking time to get to know her)

October 08 - Ws moves in with parents, he tells them he doesent love me anymore, they are aware of EA and support me in their own way by banning WS from using their PC while he is staying with them. At this stage EA on Facebook is truly over however OW starts to talk to WS at work, and then escalates this to text and phone calls asking regarding stuff to do with work. So instead of thinking about Family WS gets involved with OW and while he is at his parents house uses the opportunity to take her out for drinks as he is not made accountable for his whereabouts by them. Parents IL not aware of any of this going on and MIL has above mentioned chat with WS, only convincing him further that he shouldnt come home. MIL comes over for visit with children and "lets slip" that WS will be persuing permanent separation. I freack, however keep my calm around her and have panik attack while picking up children from nursery, nursery staff call WS tell him to come from work to see to the situation, (WS tells work im not coping because we have separated, this information gets to OW and she intensifies persuit of my H), Ws arrives at nursery i have left there and gone to a friends house with the children as she lived nearby and basically couldnt breathe properely was feeling incredibly embarassed by nursery staff witnessing my panik attack and just wanted to get out of there, Ws arrives at my friends house and shouts abuse at me telling me he doesent love me etc. Friend is shocked by his behaviour tell him to take me home. I got home first (we were driving separate cars). Ws arrives and decided that due to the fact im not emotionally coping he will move back in to look after kids etc. I agree.

October 08- D Day.

I spend night after night crying about Ws not loving me anymore however go into mega plan A, I arrange dates for us, candlelight surprises when he gets in from work and much more however WS still adamant he doesent love me (despite mega tearful eyes after one date when i asked him to look at me and tell me he didnt love me and he couldnt, he also has major jelouse fit at poor 19 year old supermarket check out guy just for talking to me) We both agree to work on M and not separate. At this stage i am totally not aware of A and WS and OW are in full A mode, having PA and making plans for the future, OW told me in email that these plans included her looking after my children (something WS denies to this day).

D-Day, i look into what WS has been looking up on google and discover hotel search and bowiling ally search ask him about it WS confesses to having become "good friends" with someone at work and wanted to spend time with her, I advise him that I would not accpet that under my roof and if she was just friends why hide it from me? (he explains hotel as he was researching venues for Work xmas party i dont really think about that side of it any further). Ws admits thats wrong swears on kids lives they have never had any phisical contact and that it was purely a friendship. Tells me that when he gets to work that evening he will meet with OW and tell her that they cannot be friends anymore. I ask over and over again, if you are just friends why do you need to end it etc?? dont get much of a reply to that one. While WS is at work i get friends round for moral support they all agree something is fishy about this situation, I persue WS for details of OW, then remember that a few weeks back we had raw about an email OW sent him that i thought was inappropriate, thank goodness i saved the email in a secret directory, took email out and got all her details, emailed her the following the next day. Ws aware of me emailing her but still keeping poker faced because he thought she wouldnt reply

................................................
Hi >>>>>
you probably can figure out who i am and why ia m writing to you but please understand that i do not wish you any harm or malice i just think that its only right you hear things from my side too in order for me to move on and hopefully help you too.
I know that you have been seeing my husband and the heartbreaking bit about that is that he has told me that he has told we were separated when in fact we werent, he was here under the agreement that we were working on things and that we were trying to rebuild our life thats why this situation has devestated me.
He is still sleeping with me, he was still taking me out, he was still making an effort to spend time together and got very gelouse if i even looked at another guy so how on earth was i to psychically figure out he wanted a separation plus he was still planning a future with me.
I dont know all the details of what happened between you two but he has promised that nothing phisycal ever took plance and that is the only reason why i am looking to try and get over what he just did.
I dont blame you however i do think that maybe you should have thought a bit harder about beeing with someone who is still iving at home with his wife and kids despite the fact that he has led you to beleive he was separated.
WS has just shown me the text you sent him and i do really feel sorry for you but please give us the space and time to be able to sort out the mess you and him created. He has now wholeheartedly chosen me and the kids and although i dont know how long this choice will last i know that i have 4 little innocent children to think of so you see i have no choice but to beleive that he wants to be here and wants to make it work this time.
I am truly sorry that you got hurt in this process however its not my fault so please dont hate me , i have been begging WS for3 days to call you and explain how he lied but he is petrified that you will cause a sene and cost him his job but i still think that he is being a total coward and thats the one thing i really cant get over, i cant get over that he has supposedly risked our marriage over someone he doesent even think is worth some honesty and thats for you to sort out with him as it has nothing to do with me, i have done my bit ihave made my self known and told you my side its up to you to do what you need to do with it.
In the meantime this is my number xxxxx should you have any questions that need answers as i doubt your going to get a reply from the coward.
Please respect the choice he has made however wrong you think it is adn stop harassing him about how heartbroken you are when in fact you got yourself in this situation.
Ill ensure that he moves stores as soon as possible to minimise damage and next time you want to get together with a married man just give his wife a thought for a change reather than just think of yourself. thats the only bit i am angry with you about and im sorry if it sounds rude but lets face it you and him hurt me beyond beleif.
I dont know if i should expect a reply or even any acknowledgement but either way take care of yourself.
.....................................................


OW replyes ... continued on next post hold on

OW replyes the following



.........................................

i wouldn't worry, i won't be talking to him ever again, if someone who supposedly loved me, and believe me he did tell me that, can put me and you through this, they don't deserve a hello from me, i'm not some crazed lady who stirs up trouble for nothing, the feeling was there, on both sides! Why else would i care!? We've both been lied to, obviously, don't feel sorry for me, i'm resiliant i'll bounce back nicely, i feel sorry for you cos he's still lying to you, even now, if you feel better for believing different, thats your choice and i hope your happy together, i truly do. trust me, there's no way i'd even spit on him in a fire, please feel free to ask me anything you feel you need to know, i'm an honest person and you'll get the absolute truth, i didn't do this to hurt anyone if he'd have been honest and said you was living together all this time this wouldn't have happened, believe me!



...................................



Please note at this stage I had no idea at to this stupid cows character and i had no knowledge of the many married men she had been with before my WS so I was still being nice and sent the following





.............................................................

Firstly thank you sooo much for replying because all this time he has been saying that nothing ever got that far, he said you never discussed the future, he said the only reason you agreed to see him was becasue he told you he was living with me because i was unstable and he needed to look after me which i total bull crap, i go to work look aftrer the kids and yeas i did bloody go mad at him when he pulled something this similar a few months ago when he was had to go home from work and meet me to discuss it as i had kicked his sorry [censored] out for2 weeks. then he came back and decided to stay together and work at our marriage.

I didnt think that this is your fault i just didnt understand how he could supposedly tell you he was living with me and you agree to see him which i can see now thats not the case and thank you so much for clarifying this.

obviousely not i have a few questions and please please do me a favour and try to answer them as i now trust you will be honest with me as i will be with you.

1) how long has it been going on? he says 4-5 weeks

2) have you had any phisicall contact a part from a cuddle when you have had a cigarette which is what he said.

3)what exactly did he tell you about me? cause he says he just told you that i wasnt coping which is crap.

4)what future plans you had cause he says there where none, he said it was a just lets see where this goes once he offiically leaves me (something apparently he was trying to do but never really gave me any idea as explained in my previous email)

5) did you ever go out together he says jsut once to the pub, and otherwise he just came over to your house breafly. he said otherwise you met aftrer work just for 20 -0-30 mins a total of 7 times.



Im so xxxx off cause i gave him chance afrer chance to come clean and all he does is make me feel that i am in the wrong.

thank you so much for replying xxxx i really appreciate it. i really do.

.................................................



And as this email was being sent WS was literally pacing up and down the living room so i knew there wasnt any good news to come of it, as kids were present advised we go to bedroom to talk, there he fessed up to having Sex with her, i react as described in my first post





this is the crushing email i got back from her



.............................................

no problem, i didn't want to cause you heartache, i feel for you trust me, we went to a hotel, twice, each time i had to pay on my card and he gave me the cash so you wouldn't see where the money had been spent, we slept together both times, i'm so sorry to tell you that, but i don't do lying as he full well knows, he told me he loved me nearly everytime we've spoken which was every day for the last 2 weeks or so, i still have messages to that effect, he always said that i WAS his future, hence my lack of knowledge he was never actually planning to leave you, he even asked if i was able to cope with 5 kids, as i have one myself, we went for a meal both times we stayed at the hotel and then cinema after this time, never has it only been 30 minutes or so after work, more like a couple of hours, and there was definately more then hugging going on, i'm so so sorry to tell you like this i really am, but you deserve the truth and thats what i'm telling you, i swear on my daughters life all of this is true.

And, its been going on for a couple of months now, that night he left work he rang me and told me its cos you weren't coping with separation, and to wait for him to contact me, which he did the next day and just so you know, if i'd have known any of what your saying about you working things out, i'd have stayed well away, i have more self respect then that, and certainly have been bought up with the morals not to wreck a home.

........................................................



And here it is folks yes that was the moment my heart totally broke and this is why im not moving on from A, I needed him to hate her and needed him to get his revenge for the both of us.



I know i started this post replying to Staytogether and now its escalated to details of A but I think that some of you might be judging me for being moody and not lapping up WS attempts at marriage building, All i can say for myself is that i was betrayed and lied too so much (even by inlaws that I loved so much) im not prepared to let my guards down until this WS gets off his backside and show me he is no longer the manipulative idiot who caused me the unbarable pain.



Ps also note how OW catches herself in a lie in emails first saying she didnt know he was living at home then changing it to she didnt know we were working at M. She knew full well and that�s why she never ever asked WS about the state of our M, she never asked what he got up to at home etc, she just took her pound of flesh and enjoyed the attention she was getting from any man nevermind his family or kids. I truly dispise her.



After this contact with her i did go and meet up with her and gave her cuddle as thought she had been duped by my WS and felt sorry for her and thought as both been duped by same man we could support eachother, but then i discoverd her past and her manipulations and all hell broke loose, This is why i am adamant about going to the Xmas party, its about getting revenge for her making a total fool out of me and i cant tell you what i have planned all i can say is watch this space, don�t worry I wont physically hurt her in any way but the psychological games I have planned for her that evening will have her crying for mercy.



Today I feel hate, I feel anger and I feel resentment for OW and WS. So I guess that�s my update.



Staytogether ill reply to your post when im in better frame of mind.

Was in the middle of posing this when site went down last night lucy i had saved my post on words phew.

Hi BH,

I'm trying to read the emails, but I want to wish you the best when you talk to Steve today. You are doing the very best thing by coaching with him. Please come back as soon as you can to tell us how things went.

When are you likely to hear whether H has been shortlisted for the job?

Appointment with Steve coaching in 10 mins, im having a melt down, went to the gym this morning to burn off anger only worked a bit, so now angry and tiered, great!!!!

Please keep your fingers corssed for us as if this coaching doesent make WS wake up and smell the coffee then nothing will and i will be jumping ship.

Hi BH28,

Good luck with the coaching.

What's this about, Bh? Here I've beem ragging on your H re: "no contact" and this idea of going to the Christmas party hasn't been put in the trash bin? Why would either of you go? Why be an accomplice in renewing contact with her? The best revenge is in taking back the man she wanted, assuming he works hard to become again the man you want.

Praying for the both of you.

Thanks everyone

WS on phone to steve right now, i have to keep myself busy, dying to listen in but been very good and behaving. WHY IS IT TAKING SO LONG, i want to talk to steve!!!!

GloveOil,
I appreciate what you are saying about xmas party and i know im not doing the right thing but trust me i cant help it, now that WS is moving jobs i need to get my payback on that POSOW. I need to see for myself that he has no feelings for her I need to confirm that they are no longer together, If im there and he is affectionate as hell in her presence then that will prove to me that he has truly cut her off emotionally. Its going to be hard and its going to get messy as her Wayward friends will be there but im strong and i have a plan to cover all eventualities (apart from being phisically attacked by her friends in that case i dont have much of a plan but to call police). I wouldnt expect any of you wise lot to condone what im about to put myself through by going to party but its just something i cant let go of.

(((((((((((BH))))))))))))

I was lied to by a sneak theif OW, too. She's ugly old linoleum - beneath your shoes AND your notice.

I'm hoping and praying for you.

I'm trying not to get discouraged myself. I am beginning to feel my situation is hopeless because of WH intense feelings for OW. And I don't think he is strong enough to get past them. Has told himself for a long time that she is the one he missed out on. Has said so many ugly things to me in this regard.

It would be so much easier if he had just hooked up with some cow ( actually, he did!) But this one, I don't think he has the fortitude to move on from.

Delan-de ((((Delan))) thanks for the support, im sorry the OW in your situation was the same type as my OW. Its hateful to thing these women are behaving like that, whats so wrong with them that they cant get their own man???

Claygal-- I like you lots but listen to me. take your phone and put it where you cant read the flipping text messages, i just read your thread, NC with WS means NC!!! i appreciate you must be scared, read my post when i talk about kicking WS out for 2 weeks, i had to have NC with him (yeah i know in my case it bit me in teh backside big time but your WS is at a better stage than mine was) so i know how your feeling and its horrible but you need to let go of him so he can make his own realisations.
Remember your WS feelings for OW might be intense because he is major cake eating, these feelings he is having WILL be threatened by the thought of permanently loosing you. Give him the chance to loose you so you can end these games once and for all.

update on Steve coaching session coming up

Ok people first of all I want to give huge cuddle/thanks/gratitude to all of you who suggested the coaching with Steve I owe you so much I dont know how to start repaying your kindness.

So here is what happened and ill try to summarise as i know im a fan of writing huge essays.

First Steve spoke to both of us getting small details like our ages, jobs childrens aged etc. Then he asked to talk to WS first then he would talk to me.

WS and Steve chatted for an hour and ill let him tell you about his conversation on his thread.

I then got on the phone with Steve for the second hour and boy did he have me pegged down, he knew what type of person I was and what my needs were without me having to tell him about it. He told me about the plan he has set WS, the way he explained it is that at the moment there is no point in doing plan A, B or anything like that or even recovery because the fact that i have a bleeding injury (metaphorically speaking) is going to stop me from absorbing love or healing with WS. So he has set out a four step plan for WS to do and asked me to protect WS from myself (my anger, chriticism etc) wich is a fair request also i am no longer able to "do steves job" with WS as according to Steve i have been councelling WS regarding his affair issues.
Steve was very transparent and easy to trust as he knew exactly what I was feeling and what stage i was at from just a few details that I gave him.

I am very impressed people, the man really does know what he is talking about and is amazing at explaining things to both me and WS in a way that targets us at our separate levels of undertainding.

We have booked our next double session for next Thursday to see how the plan is going (this plan is an instaint plan so im well happy with it, its not one of those wait and wait and talk and wait kind of things) so i will be able to see some progress in a short space of time etc.

This is all good and well but it still enforces my view that if Steve cant get through to WS then im jumping ship. There are no excuses for WS this time. the therapist is eccellent, the timing is good and im cooperating so if he cant meet what Steve has set him out to do i officially give up.

BH, I agree. I spoke w/ Steve last March and was completely impressed. Steve gave me a list of things to do and I did them. Unfortunately, I couldn't complete the list since the last item on it was to have H call him. And that never happened. Not for lack of trying on my part though...

Still, it was a valuable hour.

HI BH First I want to say I read your whole thread so I am happy for you and WS{more for you} about the counseling with Steve Good Luck, and may I say many heartfelt prayers go up to the Almighty Savior for you!

Now, please let me caution you in love about this X-mas party. First I want to say, how amazed and humbled I am by your courage, and your mindset. You have been vulnerable by allowing us all to view your pain and experiencing it once is hard enough. I have to say from the top of my head to the tips of my toes, that this is a very bad idea. You are dealing with a creature who has no self-worth, morals and absolutly no respect for herself let alone anyone else. She is not even worthy to lick the spit off of a crumb of bread that you have touched. Do not give your power away to her. Do not give her one ounce of the gifts that God has empowered you with. Your greatest revenge (other than killing her in your fantasy world) is living the best life the God has to offer you. Recovering your marriage with the father of your children and keeping intact the family unit as a whole. Just as others have told you they can see her for who she truly is, let those that love you hold you up and share the glories of who you are with everyone, home and at work. You can not convinse crap that it is not crap. That is the only thing that it has ever known, the ability to stink up everything it touches and is around and the only thing healthy people do with crap is throw it away. It is time for you to bag her up and toss her in the garbage, for that is where she belongs. You on the other hand deserve to be treated like a rare heirloom. Treasured and put in a place of respect and honor for all to see. Do not cast your pearls before swine, and trust me she is a pig.

With all that being said, I know how you feel, in your heart of hearts. I died my hair, tried to look as young as I could, and act it as well(OW is 24) started trying to get a clue about jargon and current pop music, tried to act like I didn't know what my 47 years had taught me. all it did for me was help me to hate myself, to see all that I was not and did not have to offer him. I could never be her, I could not turn the clock back, the mirror still showed the lines, wrinkles and grey hair that age and up to this point life and wisdom had given me. Through counselling I realized as long as I was trying to be someone else, I could never love him back to me, there was no me as long as she was co-habitating with me. I made a decision that day, she was already getting him, I'll be damned if she was getting me too. that was the day I started to try to love me and how I looked and value what I had to give and to try and start showing him everything he was missing out on. Hopefully, prayfully, it will be enough. He says it is me he wants, needs, desires, we'll see. Either way, when I look in the mirror, I want to see me, I am his wife, mother of his children, an honerable woman who has never tried to carry on with a married man, never broken up a family, never caused another woman to question my intentions. This person I am at peace with.

Although revenge is sweet at first it turn bitter in the end. give your husband a gift he does not deserve.....give him you

Thanks Betty/ourhouse for your support

In so sorry OH to hear that your WS was not brave enough to talk to steve and hopefully try and resolve the mess he created. Its sad when i hear about these types of WS because they really dont realise all the good they could gain from not being ignorant about who they are and what they do. If your WS wants to figure out things on his own then thats his loss atleast you have choosen the right path and will be better off with it.

Betty, again thanks for the kind words, i dont mind sharing the details with you guys simply in the hope that they will one day help someone when they find themselves in a similar position. there is nothing like reading about a tried and tested thing rather than entering into something blindly and hoping for the best. It does hurt me to read that POSOW's emails but at the same time just because they are hidden in my Facebook indbox file does not mean they are gone, they are in my thoughts no matter how far i try to push them.

The problem that I have regarding OW is that i have received many emails in reply to my exposure email from her friends telling me about the other families she has destroyed, All those BS have gone away into the night without a peep and some may even have got a better marriage etc but this i beleive led to OW carring on with her destructive path, how do i justify it to myself if in a few months time i hear that she has gone after another married man and destroyed another family while i just sat back and was selfishly just concentrating on repairing my marriage, thats no consolation to the future BS's. This woman needs to be taught a lesson and im almost glad she chose me to mess with because i can take her on.

Look at these emails from HER friends, people i dont know people that owe me nothing yet they tell me their pain

-------------------------------------------
i totally agree with what you have done, why anyone believes that you should get anykind of abuse from them, even if they think they are doing it for there friend are mad. What they need to do is stand back and realise that you and your children are the innocent party in all this and should have nothing but support.
At the end of the day you have done nothing but prove yourself to be a much better person than any of them by getting your point across in the constructive manner they are lacking.
the reason why i felt compelled to messag you back was when i worked with xxxx 5ish years ago she was my best friend, i was then with my ex and after we split up he admitted he cheated on me with gemma, so i totally know what she is capable of, and support you totally.
PP�
--------------------------------------------------
Hi Noor I'm an very deeply shocked by this and thought xxxx had changed her ways. I can honestly say now I was friends with xxxx when we were 16 and thought she would have changed by now, haivng a child and all. But obviously I was wrong.
She did this to me when I was about 17 or 18 just before I met my husband. There were no children involved and no one was married but I was seeing a guy and Gemma slept with him behind my back. She has lost many friends over the years and I wish to have nothing more to do with her. I also have no knowledge of her being raped at 16.

I hope you and your husband have the strength to get through this.�

----------------------------------------------------

This next email is from an ex colleague that worked with OW and gives names of all married men she has been with in the workplace
.........................................................

Where does your husband work, or for that matter where does xxxx work now. I knew her when she worked in xxxxxx. Suffice to say she knew a fair few fellas then, if you get my drift. Without wanting to be rude or forward in anyway, has your husband been along and got his equipment tested for any extras, ie HIV or any other STD's.
Might be worth telling him he needs to get tested.
Im sure you are aware xxxx has a child, quite a cute little thing I seem to remember, however, at the time there was a book running on who the father was. rumour was that xxxx wasnt overly sure, and that it was between 3 married fellas, all of whom worked at xxxxx at the time. Their names I wont go into, as it wouldnt be right to embarass them for their indiscretions / mistakes / errors of judgment, call it what you will.

I wish you the best of luck with your man, in whatever way you choose to go. For me infidelity is a cardinal sin, with no way back. Please do make sure that he gets tested for any diseases before you go anywhere near him.
--------------------------------------

Then the same person above sent me the following email

-----------------------------------------
�December 9 at 6:45am
Good luck
You could ask how the following are:
xxxxx - one of the possible fathers
xxxxx - one of the possible fathers
xxxx (cant remember his surname, used to work in building)
xxxxx - One of the possible fathers - my money was here!!!
there are manay more, she was quite a promiscuous little thing when I was a manager there.
What I would say, is that xxxx is a very tight nit community, and the amount of time that people spend together, it is quite common place for staff to end up dating each other. Having said that it is up to the individuals to know the difference between right and wrong. My wife now used to work in the warehouse, as I was a manager, that said I was not married nor going out with anyone at the time. This all said dating a married man is really not the done thing, particulalry when she knows he is taken.

I now work in xxxx �

Hope you manage to sort things out for the sake of your family, and yourself, for they are the most important things in the world. Everyone and everything else is unimportant

_---------------------------------------

SEE WHAT I MEAN PEOPLE SHES A ROYAL XXXXX and if i dont expose her fully who will?? these people are obviousely gutless because instead of standing up to her they become her friends on Facebook and expect me to do the hard work, cheers guys like i didnt have enough XXXX to deal with already. How can i have all this information and do NOTHING with it??

Bh, I'm so glad that to hear how the sessions with Steve went. I also want to tell you how much I admire your strength and your progress. However, you are wrong to go to the party. You both need to be NC with this woman.

Arguably, you are temporarily stuck with the work situation because of the economic realities of having children, but H must work vigourously to end that situation quickly. But you are NOT stuck with going to a Christmas party.

What do you really think you will achieve by setting you and H up to put on a show of emotion in front of OW?

Do you think she (and her friends) won't know that it is a show, and will be hurt? Might she not instead think that your show is pitiful?

Do you think that YOU won't know that your H's behaviour is a show, and will find the whole experience of play-acting for a worthless ho traumatic?

Don't you think your H will know he must step up to the mark, and will act however you expect him to? If it is carefully managed behaviour then what will you gain from that?

Don't you think several people there will be thrilled at the drama?

Don't you think several people there will pity YOU for needing the drama?

The only dignified, classy behaviour that you can engage in is to both stay away from the party and treat it as insignificant. Save the babysitters for a night out when you want one and ignore the party altogether.

I think that putting both you and H in deliberate contact with OW will harm your personal and marital recovery. Ask Steve what to do about this.

Dear BH I would'nt expect you to just slink away licking your wounds. Not asking you to. By those e-mails, it seems that everyone who knows her knows how she is. So expose, expose,expose to everyone everywhere every chance you get. Every one at work already knows how she is. so x-mas party i still have my doubts about. however, corporate environment, management local and national everyone at the higher ups. Everyone in the town she lives in... Facebook, My Space, You Tube....wonderful tools to shed light on any ugly, nasty parasite that needs to go away. Just do it with honor, grace, and integrity, things she obviously does not possess.

Betty and SC,
I have thought about all the possiblities SC, and have come up with plans etc.
Her friends are measly low grade workers, she is a suprevisor but hangs around with 16-19 year old kids (she is 26) so im not bothered by what they think and intend to spend my time with managment (GG and his wife for example are going and supportive). As far as the drama trust me there will be none. I have agreed with WS that if any of her little pathetic friends was to approach us i would simply say to WS "this is your issue you deal with it" and walk away to get a fizzy drink etc, therefore not biting.
I dont want WS to be overly affectionate as it will seem an act therefore we are not dancing etc, we are just going to mingle with other respectful members of staff occasionally hold hands and he tends to be very affectionate when he is worried about me and he will be worried about my feelings on that evening. I plan to do several trips to the store before Xmas party to get used to the idea of being in the same space as OW and assess situation with how staff members react to me being around, getting to know a few of them, if i feel uncomfortable then xmas party is off. You have to bear in mind its been a year since Facebook exposure and nothing has kicked off since so im expecting people to have gotten over what happened as now the main item of store gossip is OW best friend is dating a married man. As far as the tricks i have up my sleaves they are subtle but hard hitting, i really cant tell you about them just yet.

Betty, as far as exposing this horrid human i have every intention of doing a flyer detailing her behaviour and posting it in her town once WS leaves job as dont want him to get into trouble with work. I plan to post this flyer containing her disgusting behaviour everywhere she has been, work, around her childs school (her child is too young to understand 4 years old but the parents at that school will get the message) then in the works car park etc. I wont shut up until she crawls back under whatever rock she has come out of. Also the company promotes its reputation as very large DIY chain so if any negative press reaches them (and this has happened in the past) they do sack their employees for bringing the company into disrepute. My biggest aim is to get her sacked, she has no life outside of her job, she lives 2mins walk from work and all her social life is spent with the kids she works with so getting her sacked will be the biggest result for me.

ps also forgot to mention that above emails along with other damning ones have been given to store manager and now there is a copy of this in her HR file, this means that if she does behave inappropriately towards married men again she is to be sacked and this is a guarantee. She is clever in the sense that the managment turnover in taht store is high (GM changes every 2 years) so no one has been in that company long enough to keep track of her behavior, she is unaware of record in her HR file and WS had GG have checked this is still there. Copy of letter in her HR file will post below

11 December 2008


Dear Mr xxxxx


Im writing to thank you and confirm that there will be no more distruptions to xxxx work due to this unfortunate situation.
I would like to offer my sincere apologies for the way this situation has affected your store and would like to thank you for helping my family find a way to move forward.
I am aware that right now you may have reservations about what might happen next but I can assure you that neither myself or xxxx wish any harm or malice, we just want to get through the next 3 weeks as peacefully and with the least distruption to his job as possible, I know xxxx has already stated this to you and I just wanted you to hear it from me too as I am the person who has found the situation hard to cope with and therefore led to the distruptions.
I am a mother to 4 children and therefore will be doing my best to secure their fathers future and Job and appreciate your part in this.
I understand that xxxx has done something wrong and is rightfully paying for it but it is hard for me to cope, when I see that the third party has been hailed as professional when in fact the behaviour that led to this problem has been ongoing for a few years. She is able to be professional as this is not the first time she has had a relationship with members of staff especially the ones who have had families and partners at your store, this has led to many leaving over the years and I know this because I have been contacted by many previous employees of your store who are disgusted by her repeated actions and the fact that this carries on being disregarded.

I appreciate this cannot be dealt with as it was in the past and I am not asking you to take any action as you rightfully said she has turned up to her job and her performance carried on being of standard, and to be honest xxxx is leaving so really its not about him either, its about knowing the full situation that will and has affected your store and hopefully preventing this in the future.

I feel the need to pass on to you the comments of your previous employees as I really cant say much more without sounding like I am acting out of spite and seeking revenge when this is done to give you and other management the opportunity to avoid this situation happening again with other members of staff and xxxx xxxx, as I hope xxxx takes pride in employing genuine people with high morals.


�December 9 at 1:02am
Where does your husband work, or for that matter where does Gemma work now. I knew her when she worked in xxx in xxxx. Suffice to say she knew a fair few fellas then, if you get my drift. Without wanting to be rude or forward in anyway, has your husband been along and got his equipment tested for any extras, ie HIV or any other STD's.
Might be worth telling him he needs to get tested.
Im sure you are aware xxxx has a child, quite a cute little thing I seem to remember, however, at the time there was a book running on who the father was. rumour was that xxx wasnt overly sure, and that it was between 3 married fellas, all of whom worked at xxx at the time. Their names I wont go into, as it wouldnt be right to embarass them for their indiscretions / mistakes / errors of judgment, call it what you will.

I wish you the best of luck with your man, in whatever way you choose to go. For me infidelity is a cardinal sin, with no way back. Please do make sure that he gets tested for any diseases before you go anywhere near him.

Best Wishes,
Current xxxx xxxx Manager�


�December 9 at 6:45am
Good luck Noor!
You could ask how the following are:
xxxx - one of the possible fathers
xxxxx - one of the possible fathers
xxxxx (cant remember his surname, used to work in building)
xxxxt - One of the possible fathers - my money was here!!!
there are manay more, she was quite a promiscuous little thing when I was a manager there.
What I would say, is that B&Q is a very tight nit community, and the amount of time that people spend together, it is quite common place for staff to end up dating each other. Having said that it is up to the individuals to know the difference between right and wrong. My wife now used to work in the warehouse, as I was a manager, that said I was not married nor going out with anyone at the time. This all said dating a married man is really not the done thing, particulalry when she knows he is taken.

xxxxxxxxxxxx

Hope you manage to sort things out for the sake of your family, and yourself, for they are the most important things in the world. Everyone and everything else is unimportant

Best Wishes,
Current xxx xxxx Manager�

� Today at 08:50

its a sad life but things happ it it that we love or hate. as i have left xxx over a year a go i dont know your hus but just to let u know working there is a marrige wecker. i was there 4 5 years so i see lots going on. just try to put things behind u for the x mass time as u have kids just have some luck
Stephen�

�09 December at 22:23

i totally agree with what you have done, why anyone believes that you should get anykind of abuse from them, even if they think they are doing it for there friend are mad. What they need to do is stand back and realise that you and your children are the innocent party in all this and should have nothing but support.
At the end of the day you have done nothing but prove yourself to be a much better person than any of them by getting your point across in the constructive manner they are lacking.
the reason why i felt compelled to messag you back was when i worked with xxxx 5ish years ago she was my best friend, i was then with my ex and after we split up he admitted he cheated on me with gemma, so i totally know what she is capable of, and support you totally.
Paula�

�09 December at 12:15
Hi Noor I'm an very deeply shocked by this and thought Gemma had changed her ways. I can honestly say now I was friends with xxxx when we were 16 and thought she would have changed by now, haivng a child and all. But obviously I was wrong.
She did this to me when I was about 17 or 18 just before I met my husband. There were no children involved and no one was married but I was seeing a guy and xxxx slept with him behind my back. She has lost many friends over the years and I wish to have nothing more to do with her. I also have no knowledge of her being raped at 16.

I hope you and your husband have the strength to get through this.�

�09 December at 12:38

You stand strong and get through this. All that wrote in you're first message brings back alot of memories about her. I think we've both gone our separate ways in lots of ways. I am married to a soldier with two beautiful children and have matured and it seems our so called friend has remained in the past. She can be very persuasive around men and she also too begged me for forgiveness a couple of times over her deceitful ways with boyfriends of mine. I'm removing her from my list and I hope you can get through this.�


I know that you will be inclined to believe that this letter is designed to hurt xxxx but I am genuine in the fact that I just want to make you aware of what is actually affecting your store and staff and as xxxx is professional and in the wrong too he did not feel that he has been given the opportunity to justify or defend himself.

Once again thank you for your support so far and would like to reiterate that there will be no further actions taken from our side regarding this situation.

Kind Regards


xxxxxxxxx


_----------------------------------------------------------

After this it transpired that this particular GM was never going to let WS transfer as he needed him too much but the letter still stands in her HR file still to this day.

Bh,

I know you are a really clever person and I know you are not missing my point about the party. You are deliberately avoiding my point, and you are better than this behaviour:


This is, all of it, completely unnecessary. You just need to stay away from this social event.

You have every right to drop in unannounced at H's work. Checking up on them both is good. Putting on a show at a Christmas party is avoidable contact, and drama, and degrading to you. YOU ARE BETTER THAN THAT.


Bh, just think about this. OW could retaliate by publishing the truth about your WH for everybody to read, and make them look at you and the kids with pity.

Your H went willingly with this woman. His behaviour was every bit as bad as hers, and he deserves the same public condemnation as she does. It does not matter that she was a particularly trampy tramp. It would have been the same had she been a first-time fallen saint. If you are prepared to publicise her behaviour, you must be prepared for her to publicise your H's. He was every bit as bad as her.

And be careful. There are libel laws in this country. Get a single fact wrong and she could be enjoying a slice of your inheritance.

This is not helping your recovery. Focus on what Steve has told you to do, and ask him before you do anything outside his guidance.

Ok SC Im not saying that you are wrong for one minute. Im saying that i cant just drop party, been planning for it for 6 fracking moths (going to the gym religiously, loosing weight like a maniac. day dreaming about the perfect outfit and practicing hairstyles till early hours of the morning) this is not to say that I will definitley go, I am trying to take on board what you are all saying and its very very true in many senses but this is purely become and obsession for me.

As far as exposure she has already exposed WS to anyone who would listen, her town is 1 hour away so no one there knows anything about us, she can go ahead and try to retailiate she has no idea where we live (ws made kept it from her during A for fear of discovery)

Tell me what can i do that is sensible and above her that does not involve me letting this total homewrecker go on unpunished and unexposed to destroy antoher family? Im really open to suggestions.

My WS deserves 70% of the blame for what happened, he was married he made vowes to me not her but he is dealing with the mess he has created, she isnt , she gets off scott free, and thats just not fair.

BH,

No it's not fair. I doubt you will not find one BS on here that would disagree with you.

BUT.,,,,.,.,

you really need to heed SC's words. NOTHING, and I mean nothing, GOOD can come of this. With any of it.

Listen, we all talk about revenge, even imagine what we would do.....well last spring a member took that route. Beat the crappola out of OM. He walked away with an arrest, conviction, probation, and $10,000 poorer because of it. This COULD be you.....

It is just not worth it..... SHE is not worth it.......

Not2fun

Don't do it.

This plan feeds her insatiable need for attention. By taking this direction there is an unspoken invitation for her to continue to engage with you at some level.

She is smart,sly and manipulative It could easily backfire in ways that you haven't imagined. NC simultaneously on both sides is essential.

After D day I was burning with rage I wrote letters and planned retribution on an hourly basis. Now 8 yrs later I am so glad that I did not take action on any of my revengeful thoughts.

Although I have to admit that even now after all this time I do not wish her well.The karma bus can take care of that.

BEST WISHES

PS
You might notice that not one poster here recommends the party idea and in fact so far all are strongly against it.

Listen up BH (as they say in the US)

I am Downunder in Australia (should it be listen down)

Point being that wherever we are in the world we are all saying the same thing

Ok people baby steps here, you know i have taken and acted on every single piece of advice you guys have given me, i trst you know better and i will take it into consideration but this is a OBSESSION/FANTASY and the only way its going to sink in thats a bad idea is by me going to that store before xmas party and seeing OW at work surrounded by her gang, this might shock me out of it. However this will address only part of the reasons i want to go to that party, the other GREAT side is preventing her from doing this to yet another family. How can i achieve this target/goal?? and still maintain grace??? yes there is alot to do with revenge, she stole something thats mine and hasnt been punished for it but i can live with that and maybe get over that one day, but what about the other families?? How can i let her do this to other people???

so xmas party aside here is my update regarding M adn WS.

WS still working his socks on himself (why he had affair, his character weaknesses setting himself boundries so A will not reaccur etc). Glad he is doing something about situation however WHAT ABOUT ME??????????????????????? where do i fit into all of this??? Yeah i get his working on himsel will lead to the greater good one day but right now im frustrated!! I have been put in position to give give and give some more and i cant take it any longer, the man needs to think about me for a sec here cause i feel like im being left outside in the cold again, waiting for him to figure out how to use the key to let me back in, yeah its nice to see him actually try different keys and search for the right lock combination rather than standing there like a lemon watching me freeze but it doesent change the fact im freezing standing outside alone.

Task set by Steve for WS fails miserably as WS starts sentances with "STEVE told me that A happened because......
NOT

"Steve helped me realise that A happened because ......

One step forward two steps back!

BH,

Here's the thing, you can't. You cannot control her, you can't control her actions, you can't control her future. You aren't that powerful....

I mean in all seriousness, let's say you go to this party and warn all the people. She gets embarressed and quits. Then you go to her town and post fliers and hand out information door to door. She gets embarressed and moves. So you go to her next town and start everything all over.....now who's in control??

You??.....nope, now your fixation/obsession has taken over. And it rules all aspects of your life.....

Let me ask you this.....all those people on FB who told you stories, do you hold them responsible for not letting you or your H know about this woman?...think on that answer.....

I understand the need/want/desire to do this, I truly do. BUT the very best revenge you can get on this woman is to work on the marriage and be the best YOU you can be......

Not2fun

Not2Fun yours was the first thread i read on this site (and was so angry that all the posts from you busting WS have gone missing and having spent 3 hours reading the thread and cheering you on etc i missed the good part where things really turned around with you and your WS) you are one of the people i admire on the site and respect but i would hope you really dont think im that dumb as to go to xmas party to tell everyone what she is about, thats way too stupid an approach even for me.

The best thing i can do is not to mention anything about her or A at xmas party that way all those not so lovely people who justified her actions and had doubts about my exposure email will see im not the crazy one. Im not BITING thats it. She is a drinker so im only going to be there to give her enough rope to hang herself. and beleive me with her attention seeking behaviour it wont take long before she hits that bottle and make a fool of herself, has been doing so regularly abandoning her kid with her parents on a weekly basis but xmas party shell actually have a reason to drink.

You have seen my email exchanges with her, she thought i was a mouse then it bit her in the backside when i exposed to all FB friends! She has an ability to look like innocent ickle OW and when your THAT ugly people dont see the possibility of her seducing all those men...... beleive me now people have changed towards her at work after exposure email, if she calls in sick there is no sympathy (she is now on a final warning one more sickness and shes out), if she makes a work mistake people are snappy at her,she went from being hailed as professional to incompetent (ws got me copy of her work appraisal her work performance is now a joke) its great! WS behaving well in store has also gone a long way and alot of people who boycutted him and stopped talking to him after A exposure are now on his side because he has proven he is still a nice genuine guy that made a mistake. She has been exposed. I just need to push that final nail in her work coffin so to speack. I have tortured her enough now that she IS scared of me and she will spend the evening wondering when im going to make my move. I wont make any move because i wont need to she will be paniking enough already. Last time i went to the store she hid, actually hid in the office the whole time, so please dont underestimate what i have done to her so far as... you only know a little bit about it. Try immagining getting my friends to call her telling her they are (any of the men she has slept with) girlfriends and they have just discovered STD so got number from current boyfriend of all women he had unprotected sex with because they need to get treated. LOL you should have heard her literally poop herself with worry (also confirming that she has regular unprotected sex ewwww).

I have retreatted from the fight with her for WS job sake but why cant i have some fun?? they had fun at my expense. its only right i have some fun at hers at the xmas party.

Hi Brutallyhonest28,

Give the guy a chance! At least he is with you and working on it. Even if his wording isn't pc, at least it shows he is listening to Steve and if he realises his own errors in all this he will work on those and the consequences will be beneficial for you. When he has got himself in order, then he can focus on you. Have you another session set up with Steve? Ask him if you should set a deadline in your own mind as to when WS should start working on your needs.

In the meantime, get those Extraordinary Precautions in place and implement your boundaries. Try to have fun times together, even if at home.

Reading my last post does make me think that i am immature and i dont disagree with that but i have been sensible for a long time and not had much fun doing that yet they actually had fun. he did with her what i had beeb dying for him to do with me for 10 years so im frustrated as anything and feeling down made xmas paty my wayward night. I have been miserable for so long is it really that hard to immagine that i would fantasise about party as day to let go of some of that misery??

For 10 years i waited for WS to take me out on a date he never did, yet he took her out alot
for 10 years i waited for WS to show me that he cared about me in some way that i understood he didnt, yet he showed her the greatest care by willing to abandon his family for her (he set date to end our marriage so they can be together).
All i want is a fraction of the fun they had together and yet when it comes to me WS is suddently stumped for ideas and is up his own backside working on himself. Does anyone out there get what im saying??

Bh,

First off, I thin you have me confused with NotSure.....
No biggie deal to me as I admire her as well, but I've been around a bit longer than that.......

Anywho, you are better than this. Revenge is a face not well worn........or as another wise VET around here taught me....."Revenge is like drinking a cup of poison and waiting for the other person to die..."

not2fun

I DONT KNOW HOW TO HAVE FUN WITH ALIEN WS. I knew how to have fun with loving sweet H i married but not this monster im stuck with. When he is here all i he reminds me of is the pain he caused, until he starts turning things round for me (not just himself) then i dont know what to do... ill say it again, HE broke my heart HE should be fixing it, i tryed my best to fix it myself but all i managed was to put a plaster on it.

Hey BH
I'm all for having fun! Just make sure the fun you have won't leave you with a horrible headache, or heartache in the end. Like I stated earlier, she is hardly worth the effort to ruin as it seems she is doing a fine job of that herself. Make sure that all the energy put into this doesn't keep you from having the energy you need for your self, your family and yes, your WS. People in her "class" rarely look back to see the devestation they have caused. Trust me when I tell you, if this woman (term used loosly) doesn't own up to who and what she is, she will pay a price to high for even her to pay. History seems to repeat itself if the path doesn't change direction. She does have a daughter who has and will continue to be an innocent victim in this wretched person's pursuit of evil. Whereas your precious children will be the recipients of a healthy, intelligent, strong vital woman and mother and soon to be parents, marriage and family.

Trust me when I say this to you. When I first found out about my WS and OW, I was just as scared for her as I was for him and our family. Then fear turned into empathy and sympathy for the predicament we all found ourselve in. After all she is only 2
years older than our daughter(ewwwww). Now, that has turned into anger and disgust, for her and him. So I find myself moving through the stages of grief and loss. I can only hope I keep moving. I don't like this part of the journey and look forward to the day where it is a distent memory. Until that time; however, I muddle through the mud and muck and hope that I can believe whole heartedly the things I am telling you.

As for WS thinking of you and your needs, remembering you are outside freezing....just yell at him to get a clue and throw you a coat...If he's anything like mine, it'll take a while. Let's try to find hope in the fact that they are trying...miserably I might add but still trying.

Not2fun it was definitley your thread i was referring to in my post the "Mr not takes a stand" you finding her stuff in his bathroom (i think it was perfume), the snooping in his car and really hating the snooping, I promise you i sat glued to the thread for hour reading all of it, cheering you on, laughing at your sense of humor and crying when you were hurt. I really admire you so dont sell yourself short

Betty i HATE myself, i dont like the way I look, i dont like who i am so no i rather spend my energy on her as wasting energy on me is hopeless, felt like this for years about myself and if anyone even dared tell me how beautiful i was i would literally cringe with yukkiness, so people have learned to leave that alone. As far as my family goes i feel guilty whenever i am near the children, i feel like i let them down badly by letting this affair have the effect it has had on me. And WS well right now i dont have a H, i have alien so not much to say about redirecting my energy towards him.

HEY BH
I do want to say I get it when it comes to WS, mine pursued her, bantered with her all day long, sought her out to have lunches, drinks with friends after work. Talked and or texted all day every day except on week-ends(home with me then)on Mondays am first thing all day all over again sharing all his wants, needs, desires, concerns, fears, all the emotional stuff I have begged for for years. that is what has broken my heart into a million pieces. the very thing i had wanted and been waiting for and hoping for and working for he gave willingly to a 24 yr old baby. who not only doesn't know what to do with it will never value what she was given. now, i find myself pushing myself to listen to all of it , trying not to gag on the leftovers, trying to be thankful for what he is sharing now. talk about feeling like your second best....how about not even on the list.

yes BH I GET IT

I totally get what you are saying here. This past six months WS has paid for OW to go to Las Vegas twice, the Colorado river once, Mexico all inclusive once, London all inclusive once, Jewellery, family meal at swanky hotel and birthday party at his apartment. Plus weekend outings, all bar and restaurant bills.

He never organised a single thing when we were together and never offered to pay for anything. My reasoning is that he took me for granted. Knew I would be there. But has to pay for these things with OW to impress her and keep her around. May or may not be true but makes me feel better.

TM, ouch... that hurt me just reading it and its not even my WS so im really sorry he has taken you for granted and only wish one day he will wake up and realise what he has lost.
Financially we are on the breadline (despite both of us working) so we have never had spare cash for anything but i have never cared about that while WS does. Money wise I only care that he spent the family money that was meant to go on food and petrol for the week on the hotel room he betrayed me in. I just wanted him to take me out occasionally, dont care where and about the expenses, im a simple girl, love carnations, love silver (hate gold) dont like diamonds (ethical reasons). Love the sea, love the outdoors, so its not like im such a complicated girl in need of money items etc..
Even the upcoming inheritance i have we were planning to buy family car to accommodate 7 seats, going on holiday to butlins and considered renewing our vowes by having the wedding we never had so its just a simple life idont want the world i just want to be part of his world.

I suppose that's the thing. We didn't want much so never got much. When you get to Butlins with the vow renewal, extend the invite to me! I have heard Bognor is quite good.

BH
I think that is what all BS have in common, we want to be part of WS world, I guess most of us thought we were. I gave mine a card the other day that loosly stated that once my heart was given to him, 28 years ago it is not mine to take back. I then wrote in the card something to this effect:

The gift I gave him he never fully unwrapped, he set it down commented on the pretty packaging and once in a while picked it up, shook it, maybe even lifted some of the tape to peek inside, then lost interest and set it aside. every once in a while he would blow the dust off and move it from place to place until finally putting it somewhere out of site. Somewhere down the road he decided he didn't need or want what was inside, so carelessly he tossed it into the garbage. The garbage was then carted away and dumped into a land fill. There it was covered by all kinds of lifes leftovers and cast aways. Now, after deciding he might really need or desire what was in that package he has to find the land fill, dig through tons and tons of life's leftovers until he finds the package that has now been ripped, squashed and flattened, most likely what was inside is broken at the very least. After finding package he has to clean it off, bring it home and try to lovingly clean the pieces that are left, find a glue that will be strong and hold and stand up to the test of time to piece it back together. After opening he will then realize that what was inside was a living, beating heart. He will then have to do CPR violent in it's delivery but necessary for life. Then if it starts to beat, he will have to lovingly, tenderly nurture it, care for it and hope that under his watchful eye it will once again start to grow. Only after it starts to grow and accept the nourishment will it again regain it's strength, the strength it will need to be vulnerable to the very hands that threatened it's very exsistence in the first place. So, is this a task he is willing to undertake, because if it is, the task at hand is almost insurmountable, not impossible, but it will take all of everything he thought he had to offer. so unless he was willing to dive into the garbage, the gift is better left undisturbed, left to die. Yet if he can see himself capable of recognizing the gift among the garbage, cleaning it and himself off and if he was willing to take the time to do the necessary work and care, the gift would be forever grateful and find peace and solace in the hands that once cost it it's very life. The gift would then spend the rest of it's life giving him what it had waited so long to give....itself.

LOL ofcourse and your WS so he can see if he puts effort in and gets his head straight he could be going to his own wedding renewal it makes me sad to think that he has given up on himelf. OW not welcome unless she enjoys mudcake in face.

Not going to renew vowes until marriage is in better shape, Butlins Bogna sounds good but still not like somewhere sunny. Im missing some sunshine!! not fan of british summers. Not having vow renewal in butlins by the way lol they were two separate plans.

betty i got goosebumps and teary eyes, how can someone not appreciate and totally cherish someone who can write things like that!

Dear BH
I guess that is why we both find ourselve here? Thank you for the compliment. I think we can both agree that we are married to and desire to stay married to .....BIG DUMB STUPID HEADS!

how's that for grown-up literary verbage! lol

Bh,

Yup, that's ME!!!.... ....yep I HATED every moment of snooping. Exposure wasn't the problem, snooping was.....

Well since you read my thread, you know I feel your pain and desire to make her life miserable. I too was obsessed in my thinking. You know what though, every time I got the chance to do something or say something ( like on C-day) I always went back and thought of something better I could have said or done. Heck, on Cday I had the chance to beat the crappola outta COW. She even tried to egg me into it, and you know what? I didn't do it. And I'm glad because she will ALWAYS know that in the end I held my grace and dignity in my own hands. And that makes me a better person today......

Now look, your WH knows he's in a no-win situation with this party. No matter what he says or does that night, you will second guess his actions. You are setting him up for failure. And since he is trying to do the MB methods, you need to support him anyway you can.....and that means NO CONTACT. I truly urge you to stop insisiting on going to this party. Keep your babysitter, get all dolled up and let your H give you a night to remember instead.....one that doesn't include OW.

I'll be back later to talk about your attitude and "stinkin thinking" on yourself.......(if you glean anything about my thread, know that my journey to LOVE myself was the hardest of all......)

not2fun

Whoa, not to T/J, but how did my name come up?

BrutallyHonest, I'm just catching up on your thread. I don't know what to say about the party, but I just wanted to let you know I understand how you feel. I've been dreaming about cracking open some eggs and leaving them in her mailbox when she's at work, posting a big sign saying "Fugly Skank", going to her work and confronting her there, etc etc, all the ways I can possibly get revenge on her. I'm just filled with hate for her and I want to act on it so bad. Yet I know if I do I will just lower myself to her level... dilemma, dilemma

I also feel anger towards my H because my sitch is, he actually had two OWs, not one. So I will just refer to them as OW1 (the EA/PA one) and OW2 (EA only). With OW2, he was texting her for about two years, and going over her condo quite often, and eating out with her. Things he should have been doing with me but NOT Like you, I literally begged him to take me out, do things with me, etc etc etc and he just either put it off or didn't want to do it. With OW1 he initiated/planned most of their activities together.

Per my discussion with Steve, I have not asked him any "why" questions related to this but it burns away at me. Why them? Why not me? Why wasn't I WORTH IT??? WHY WERE THEY WORTH IT? I'm like worth 1,000x of them combined, you know??

Anyway, sorry if I totally went off point or whatever, but I really do admire you (SusieQ, my sister, forwarded me your FB exposure email and I literally like, whoaaa... Now I wish mine had been more like that!) and reading some of your posts struck a chord with me.

Bh and NotS,

I too had those same thoughts. god knows how I thought for MONTHS those same things....."why hadn't I received those kinds of love letters?"...."why wasn't I good enough to hear how important I was to him?"......"why had I received that jewerly?"......"why her and not me?".....

The thing is it really didn't have anything to do with me. The affair wasn't about me. It was about him and his sense of entitlement, selfishness and lack of boundaries and protection. It was all about how she made him feel. And really when it comes down to it, when you think how they sell their souls to do those things in order to get the fix, it's really quite sad. This is why Steve is wanting your H's to work on them.....

Which is really hard for you all this point. Your ENs have been neglected for so long, your Takers are running rampant. And rightly so......BUT you do need to keep that Taker reigned in because no good Recovered marriage on here made it with their Taker in charge.....

Now, it's even harder for the both of you since your WH's are still I'm contact due to work. I truly wish I had some advice on how to handle that. It was a boundary I firmly put into place, BUT my circumstances were different than yours. And true recovery cannot start until NC is in place. I do know that a member here, Schoolbus, went thought her H working with OW for 8 months following the affair, yet they recovered. You might want to look up her old threads.

Lastly, I want to let you know that these feelings won't last forever. It's been a year since the last contact with COW. Those feelings of revenge and intense hatred are gone. I firmly believe NC and time have a lot to do with that. Also, throw in my acceptance that the affair wasn't about me and that I know now what I do deserve and what I capable of enduring and nobody can take that from me.....not H and certainly not COW or any other OW for that matter.

(((((Bh and NotS))))))......the ride is bumpy girls, but some days it is worth it.....

Not2fun

Can someone repost her exposure email? I would love to see it!!

Hi Melody just a quick reply that i never posted my exposure email, i have emailed it to those interested when they contacted me at my below email address, the reason being is that 1) Its too graphic to post on here, 2)It has vindictive remarks taht i wouldnt want BS get influenced by when sending their exposure eamils. I just dont want it on my thread, i have it stored on my PC for future reasons but having it on here it would remind me of it too much so happy to eamil it to those interested in the sake of learning etc

BH, would you mind sending it to me at ohmelodylane@aol.com?

thanks!

Not2 and NotS,
Glad you guys get what im saying and im so sorry you feel that way because it does hurt, we do the bulk of care and love for WS's and we get to deal with the aftermath while COWs walk away with the pleasures. Not Fair!!

I dont know if you read my earlyer threads about my friend JJ the one sorting out job for WS, after A number 4 she still did plan A and stuck at her marriage for a while but one day when the storm had passed her WS went over to one of our mutual friends houses (refer to as AA) and while there bought Pizza delivery, our mutual friend is a very nice girl and therefore nothing ontoward was going on but JJ's WS was grwoing attached to her so when he came home JJ asked him what he had been up to, he told her went to AA's house and bought pizza delivery, JJ asked him why dont you ever do that with me and her WS replyed "because she deserves it and you dont" that was it, that was the straw that broke the camels back, that was the day their marriage ended, she kicked him out and never looked back. he is now literally a bum on the streets, so this leads me to think that the feelings we are having WHY her not me are somewhat importaint for WS to address.
I feel that this is an area where we build huge resentment for WS's so how do we deal with that??

You say that one way is to understand tha A is not about us well that hurts in its own way, why wasnt it about us?? (for example why didnt affair happen because while we were busy with work childcare etc WSs missed us so much they looked for care elswere). Beleiving that the A is not about us is killing me. I wish it was about me then i can do something to stop it happening again but this way i have to trust a person who totally betrayed and lied to me to do the work to stop it happenign again, thats just a difficult position to be in..

OK ML sent

BH - while your WH is working his way into recovery, you will also have to work on your personal recovery.

I can't stop OW from "collecting" relationships with other women's husbands. First of all, that would make my world revolve around her, and frankly, in the big picture scheme of things, she just isn't that significant.

But for a time I couldn't let go, and she was always on my mind, how she'd sneak into "recovery" meetings online stalking my husband - to see if she could keep up on what he was doing and thinking... sick! How she'd quote scripture and tell me that I was following an "uninspired" path to not "reconcile" the friendship with her we once had. I let her abuse me through making her my focus.

So you want to go to a party, to make a statement. But there's the statement you want to convey, and the statement that is reality.

You can't show up to any place YOU KNOW she will be without making this piece of gum under your shoe "significant".

Scrape her off; you don't have to go to a company party where you will be "twitching" with thoughts of vengeance and NOT having fun - instead, let that husband of yours attempting to recover, show you a good time that he has planned out far away from that atmosphere. These are people he's not going to be working with anymore anyway. And she has a nice addendum to her employment file, and her new boss is watching her. You've done all the damage you can, and maintain your dignity.

So think of it this way - she's stolen so much from you. But from this moment on, any attention or thought or action you do is voluntarily giving this piece of worthless carp your golden time and stealing from yourself and your own personal recovery.

That's why you SHOULD NOT GO to the party!

There is not one good outcome possible by going. Not one. Your personal gratification will not be realized because she's still significant to you. You have to find your indifferent place for her. The same attachment you have to what you flush down the toilet - no hatred, no love.

KylaA

cant argue with you cause have nothing left to say that can actually justify me going to the party, its still a fantasy and the reasons are still many that compel me to go but as you have pointed out I cant take her on by myself, if the people who emailed me had the backbone then we could have easely crushed her but they simply choose to tell me about it and get me to do their work for them. I have to beleive what comes round goes around so Karma might just catch up with her.
Its one thing her sleeping with my WS but its another for her to hurt the hell out me with her detailed information emails above, I wasnt being nasty to her and at that point i beleived WS was fully responsible for hurting her and wanted to help her out but then to go find out what she is crushed me, she made a fool of me and thats something unsettled between me and her and i guess i got to stop regretting what i didnt do to her and concentrate on what i actually did. ill see if that approach works.

On a separate note would love advice comments on things i have made a note to speak to Steve about on wednesdays appointment. Basically WS decided that for the next 3 days he needs to concentrate on filling LB back up. Steve set WS task to sit me down and tell me why he had A, Steve said i cant do his job with WS and have to stop going into therapist mode with WS just listen to what WS had to say. So here is what happened when WS attempted task set by steve. WS sat me down and literally said "Steve told me i had A because....." WTF?? Steve told you why u had A?? NOPE TRY AGAIN "Steve helped me realise why i had affair...." even "Steve told me this is why i had A and it got me thinking and i agree..." would have been acceptable but what he said was just arghhhhh

so i had a choice, be therapist and explain to WS that if he is going to start like that there is no hope in hell im gonna beleive he actually realises why he had A and that what Steve actually said to him was this is why people have affair go think about it come up with how you agree with that and tell your BS in a way that helps her understand its not her fault etc.

Or go through path 2 wich basically involves shutting up and just telling Steve what happened so he can sort it out.

I choose the inbetween, told WS about the fact he does not convince me one bit that he is genuine when he says he now understands why he had A and then made notes to speack to Steve direcly about regarding situation, cannot progress with the WHY task until we speack to steve so for now WS goning to concentrate efforts on LB filling. I think this is sensible as he cant try to do the WHY thing again just yet as to obvious he is just following what i told him rather than thinking on his own.

Below are the notes for your consideration too.

General questions and comments for Steve

1) I cant get understanding of how WS can get into the frame of mind of "out of sight out of mind" thing that he does. Why wasnt the love and care i had given him during M not a factor in his thoughts when he had A. Up until this day WS confirms he never once thought about me or kids while with OW, he explains it as when he was here he thought about us and never thought about her, when he was with her he only thought about her. Is this even possible??

2) Ws talked himself out of our marriage, he gave up on us without a single little ounce of fight in him before and during A. If he is so great at talking himself out of things why did he not manage to talk himself out of A and i had to bust him before he broke it off (lets face it the A wasnt exavly going well for them now was it. Sex- not good, communication- not good, love - not there, u get my drift if you ever read NC letter from WS to OW posted on his thread)

3)I know I criticise WS alot on here but with him i try to encourage progress and hold onto every little baby step he makes in the right direction. Getting frustrated with WS negativity about his own progress, like for example the other day while i was at work he was trying to figure out how OW managed to make him feel comfortable enough around her in order for him to let his guard down around her (he was doing this in order to aid him set boundries to stop a happening agin). He came up with something that even I hadnt considered or thought about much (basically OW introduces WS to her 3 year old girl giving WS false sense of being special and meaning somethign to her, now he sees it as her using her little girl to get him to drop his guard because she knew he is a father and his kids mattered to him) and this is how he behaved when i got home

Me- hey hun what have you been up to today
WS- didnt do any major work on M because i had housework, DS doctors appointment today etc
Me- dont worry I know you have had alot on today i want asking about M specifically.
(WS grabbing his M notebook)
Me- ok tell me what you thought about then
WS- as i said its not great, not enough ....
ME- doesent matter just get it over with and tell me
WS tells me about his realisation mentioned above

I feel great because its something we had not discussed its something he actually tought of on his own and as far as i see it its GREAT progress. I tell WS this but frustrated by hearing about what WS cant do, didnt do, didnt think, didnt have time to do. I dont care about what he cant do i want to hear about what he has done and he needs to stop second guessing me because actually i was very happy with progress only ruined by his constaint negativity bibes.


4) Will talk to Steve about Xmas party u all know about that so not gonna say much more.

then i will talk to him about the way the WHY task went and go from there.

Todays update.

Well lets start on the good note, was so proud of DS aged 8 that it brought tears to my eyes. He has taken to wanting to go to the local shops (2 minute walk) by himself to spend his pocket money that he earns by helping out with chores (helping feed the pets, helping his brothers tidy up their room etc), I got home from work and he was acting really exited, so i went upstairs and foound a note he had written and next to them were chocolates. WS told me that he let DS go to the shops and was just as surprised as me when he got home as he had gotten himself a small treat, got his brothers treats and got WS a treat then he set on working on writing me the note and leaving my treat on the bed for me to find, all of this was done out of his own pocket money, we have never asked him to spend it on his brothers so we are really proud that he has been so generous and caring for them and us. He spent more of his pocket money on his brothers than he did on himself. oh no here come the teary eyes again...Im a very proud mamma!!

Not so good note

Im just so frustrated that it appears as if nobody gets me! WS told me that he has been posting for ideas on MB and was getting replyes to things he already does on a regular basis and does not understand why its not enough for me.
Well here is the situation, as you sussed out already i am a strong character and therefore since we have been married we have both equally shared the housework and the childcare, the kids help out too as i want to bring them up not relying on their future w to do all the housework etc. Kids are involved in housework at their own level, DS 8 has his own room and is responsible for keeping it tidy and feeding his hampsters etc, he also helps with the evening chores by feeding the dogs and cats, before dinner time we all bundle in the kitchen and the kids literally fight for the best chores (emptying the dishwasher, helping me load/unload washing machine just simple things) some days we have so much fun by getting a cloth each and just wiping cupboards together (even DS 1 has fun doing this) its just my way of fitting in time with kids and achieving the housework. I dont like the idea of ignoring them for an hour while i get on with it alone, that way we all have fun and even if the housework hey do is not exactly up to the best standards its still getting done. So i guess what i am trying to say that we are all active in the household, to me WS helping with kids and house is not really seen as extraordinary as some people seem to make out.

These are ieas of what makes me happy,

WS organising something for family to do, most of the time I am pushing him to go along to a day out, hes the negative one "no i dont think taking the kids to the beach is going to work because DS 1 is going to run off and we end up chasing him, then we have to find somewhere to chainge his nappy, the kids will get messy etc and i wont be able to relax enough to have fun etc". I push him we end up going and the kids are so grateful to be out they behave well.

WS taking me out, on his own just cause he wants to not because im whining my head off at him about an event i want to go to or because its a special occasion/task set. We both enjoy the same things (comedy clubs, cinema, concerts, trying out different foods/restaurants etc, im not that selfish as i wouldnt enjoy something that i knew he doesent like, and im lucky that we have the same interests.

WS looking at me with a spark in his eyes, he always has maintained that he loves my sense of style, everything i buy clothes wise etc. I find that hard to beleive, I would love for him to choose something for me to wear as then I would know that because he has chosen it then he must like it and would feel great wearing it (if money is tight for example he could go through my wardrobe and find an outfit he likes best, lay it out for me and when i get in from work says go get dressed i have choosen something i really like on you as im taking you out). Am I still sounding like a demanding freack??

I value and seek his opinion on the way I dress, do my hair and make up and although its always positive i always have to go seek it, its not volontered. He just seems to think that I accept he finds me attractive and he is happy with the way I look etc, I do sometimes but he cant keep on assuming that I know he likes me therefore he never has to tell me/ remind me.
This is most problematic in the bedroom, i have spent alot of effort in buying nice bedwear and no matter what i get he still reacts the same weather im naked or put on a corsett. I dont know how to get any actual exitement out of him!! its frustrating its not that he dosent get exited its just no matter what i wear the level of exitement is at the same level, can i really be getting it right every single time we have SC?? Really even after 10 years?? is this normal??

If i were to choose something completely selfish that would make me happy it would be to get a make over by the local department store where they show you how to use a certain make up range and custom taylor colors and methods of application to your specific look, I have been doing my make up the same way for ever and just wanted a fresh look at my approach to it.

Again another selfish thing I would have loved is for WS to be my forever sought after "gay best friend" character that will come with me clothes shopping and advise me on what looks good and what doesent, be brutally honest lol, i do this for WS all the time when we go shopping for clothes for him together and i wait by the changing rooms while he tryes things on etc.

AM I REALLY THAT UNREALISTIC WHEN I THINK ABOUT THINGS THAT MAKE ME HAPPY??? how come no one gets it??

I love the songs for the day thread so decided to add my own song of the day on my own thread. This song is driving me mad, i keep putting it on, I really like it, sums up my situation really well.

Way to go Black eyed peas - can you meet me half way

Hi BH28,

I don't think you are asking too much. It almost sounds as if you have the same WS as me - I hope not!

WS never organised anything for us and never told me I looked nice. If I asked he would always say "fine".

Reading the things you would like, they are all quite romantic. I think you are missing the romance and the feeling that gives one of being special.

You are special. You wouldn't be here otherwise.

Thanks TM for understanding and putting it so clarly, i never thought of it as "missing the Romance" now that i think of it your statement is spot on. I have still been following your thread and im so sorry you are having such a terrible time, Im just refraining from posting because i dont think MB's will agree with my view that your situations is difficult also because your WS is in USA and you are in UK. You have stated that he wants to stay there regardless of A and you want to stay in UK. This leads me to beleive a future is not possible for you two. I think alot of MB ers are totally pro marriage but then they got to be realistic, how can you have a marriage on different continents never mind the obsticals addedd by WS character flaw. I would say your doing the right thing by setting a target of January. After that i would try to move on from M.

Butting in to defend MBers, Bh:

Every thread that I have ever read on long-distance (inter-country, inter-continental) living arrangements has pointed out that these make MBing very difficult. If one spouse is still in an affair and the two spouses are not together, the impossibility of the situation is always stressed.

TM's original posts seem to have disappeared in the meltdown, but I remember reading about her situation before. She counselled with Steve Harley, whom I believe also focused on the long-distance issue. I think TM says somewhere on your thread that she is no longer counselling, because Steve has said that there is no more that he can do until H makes a move. I took that to mean an emotional move, to re-engage in the marriage and commit to living together.

MBers are pro-marriage but they give advice based on Dr Harley's rules. One of these is the rule of time, which means spending a minimum of 15 hours a week together. He recommends more if possible in the immediate rebuilding period after an affair. When a separation is temporary and unavoidable, he works with couples to find ways of staying close, such as phone calls and IMs for long periods each day. He recommends that the travelling spouse stays in his room and talks to his wife, rather than go out with friends when not working. You have to go to extraordinary lengths to make LB deposits if you are apart, and that is when both are willing. When one declares that he is finished with the marriage and is in an affair, then it is almost impossible for the other to apply Plan A effectively.

TM, would you back me in my impression of the advice you have received, here and from Steve?

SC I never questioned the advice as it has helped many but in this case REGARDLESS of A, WS want so permanently live in USA and TM wants ot permanently live in UK, her WS told her he wanted to live in USA before A even happened. I think that when two people dont live in the same continet regardless of A the situation becomes impossible. I will go back and find TM's quote that i am referring to for clarification. With or without A I am getting the impression that TM and her WS want completely different lives so how can you build a marriage around that?? do you get TM to give up her life here for WS, or do you get WS to give up on the life he wants in USA (again im not referring to A here) and come back to a place he no longer wants to live causing possible resentment?

the above quotes are what led me to beleive that this situation is more complicated than the average and Plan B will not work so its either plan A (no longer feesable) or plan D. Thats just my opinion, i am totally pro marriage but wouldnt encourage someone to hope for something that is still clearly very difficult to achieve. TM should try to move on with her life the best way she can or can stay hoping this man will not only give up A (something which he will be likely to do soon on his own accord anyway) but give up his new lifestyle and the new life he has built for himself in the place where he wants to be.

Hi SugarCane and Brutallyhonest28,

Just to clarify before this thread is completely jacked! WS has always expressed an interest in living in US and I am not fussed either way. I really wouldn't mind a change of scenery so if WS wanted to re-commit to marriage I would be happy to move to US. However, he is on long term assignment with a UK company and the possibility of him getting permanent employment with a US company is very low, given the current economic climate and the strict laws in the US with regard to employing non-Americans.

Counselling with Steve, I got the feeling that he could give me no more additional advice other than to continue what I was doing and to let WS know in a variety of ways how much he is hurting me. He said Plan B would not work for us and I had to maintain the connection that WS and I have however I can. What I was / am doing is to send jokes, news links, e-cards, little gifts in the post. Try to meet admiration need when we speak etc. Don't talk about the future but to somehow convey the potential in a future with me. In all honesty, I felt that Steve didn't hold out much hope for us.

TM

Thanks for clarifying things TM, i dont know why i got the impression that you dont want to live in USA. My mistake.

how about this fair resolution.

Contact WS by email tell him that you were hurt by the email that was sent to by him and OW tell him that if he really wants you to accept marriage is over and he no longer wants you (and that its not just a temporary phase due to OW) then he has to do one last thing for you out of respect for your 22 years of marriage, ask him if he is so sure its over then he wont mind doing the follwing for your sake

Ask WS to contact Steve for one coaching session, ask him to do this without OW present (and even if she was Steve can handle her). If at the end of the session he is still absolutely sure that he is doing the right thing and no longer wants to be in a M with you then you will accept that and not get in his way anymore. you will set him free to make his own mistakes and you will start divorce proceedings to show him that you mean that.

worst case scenario he wants to stay with OW and you can move on. If not effective there is nothing to say you have to keep your promise to him but at the same time you are closer to getting an answer and just think of what position your putting OW in, she has to agree to your WS doing this in order to get rid of you, if he wont agree then there will be arguments between them etc.

what do you think?? is this even plausable solution??

Hey everyone

Really bad bad bad day. HUGE fight, got phisical so not feeling great, kids were out of the house thank goodness. Pictures shattered, glass everywhere adn me me pinned against the wall by my throat. Dont have the energy to update much more than this. Now finally alone at home and just broken.

BH

I'm so sorry.

Have your arguments turned physical before? Are you both physical?

Do you have a plan?

What do you expect will happen when you next see H?

ST no our arguments have NEVER ever turned physical before, we are not that type of couple, shouting is as far as it gets, and as far as it has ever gotten (D-day exeption when WS had to pin me down as I was trying to get out of the room via the window)

I dont have a plan but I no longer feel safe around him. Thats not to say he will hurt me but in the sense that it all got so out of control so fast it was scary.

WS is at work, i really wish i had a friend that can come over help me pack his stuff i just dont have the energy to do it, he wants to stay but its no longer safe for both of us to live here. Kids where at school/nursery this time. what happens if they are home?? DS 8 saw broken home furniture and gass on floor asking questions. I have faint fingermarks on my throat so not looking forward to questions from people.

BH28,

I'm so sorry. (((((BH))))I hope you are ok now.

Do you know what triggered it off?

It was triggered by alot of things

lack of sleep for both of us (been getting 3 hours a night for the past week)
tierdness i had been at work from 5am to 2pm and had a very busy day (work and housework taking its toll, DS 18 months being a total nightmare etc)

WS angry that i am asking for romance when according to him what he does already is enough (referring to suggestions that he already does given on MB)

Im angry because 2 days into filling LB nothing happened, not a kind word never mind a love note. I have been taking the lions share of housework so WS can concentrate on finding ways to fill LB only to be told he wont. Felt duped and miffed at having had to do everything around the house and kids while he has been sitting around effectively doing nothing.

Lots more to it but as i said im feeling really really down.

BH - I am so sorry. He seemed to be trying (at least a little) too. Wish there were something I could do from here. I will keep you in my prayers. Keep us posted on how you are doing

BH:

I'm sorry it was rough.

Your marriage didn't get this way overnight.

It's not going to "unget" this way overnight either.

Do what they tell us in Alanon and give yourself permission to start over. Start this evening anew--rewind, if you will. Allow yourselves the latitude to make mistakes.

Dear BH
Emergency counselling session with Steve needed! You need to tell him what happened. Physical fighting is a deal breaker, get out of that house or get him out of that house until the two of you can both diffuse this situation.

You are not being unreasonable with your "romantic" wants and needs, however; in the words of my WS " I can't love you completely until I love myself and I hate myself right now, for what I did to you and for what I am not."

As much as you want, he can not give. the goal is to figure out what can he give and chooses not to so that you can call him out on those things then he can begin to learn to give the rest. Really BH protect yourself and your children, what happened is absolutely not acceptable. You get out or get him out

I think at this point i need to clarify i never laid a finger on him so the fact he would go as far as he did is not acceptable. How much damage am i supposed to pit up with?

Bh, nobody is telling you to put up with a physical attack!

What was he saying at the time he attacked you? He must have said something, such as "nothing I do is good enough for you" or "you think this is all my fault or something. What was he saying?

while in i was in the middle of the "you gave OW so much more than he has given me and that by him not doing anything special with me i feel that he is effectivly saying she was worth and im not , biggest compliment he paid OW was to leave his family for her and I got a family picture off the wall and smashed it on the floor saying this is what you did to your family when you had A. I didn throw it at him or near him, it was on floor. He grabbed me by the arm pinned me to the wall and grabbed me by the throat and said "stop acting so psycotic". I didnt reataliate as was in shock, he took a while to let me go. but when he did i said i needed to get out of house to get cigarettes, took car keys with intention to get somewhere safe, couldnt thik of anywhere to go as didnt want anyone to know what had just happened. came back home. WS apologised on his knees, im too hurt, to think clearly, keep thinking about Xmas alone as kids would be better off with him as they go to his family. I guess im still in shock.

BH you don't put up with physcial attacks at all. Both of you had a choice. This escalated due to unresolved anger. Both of you take responsibility for that. with that being said, no no no no no no no physical abuse is acceptable. now, does that mean he is gone from the house forever? only you decide that, but until a safe environment can be secured in your home with WS you have to protect yourself and your children. So what he is on bended kness, he bent his arm first! physical attack even if it was used to subdue you, should never be accepted. no hand on your throat is ever necessary. Get Steve involved now. put protection in place for you and your children now, there can not be reconcilliation if one or both of you are dead.

im the outwardly fiery one, he holds his anger in so when he lets i out its more drastic, I can shout, rant and rave but I dont ever get the urge to attack as I simply dont feel the need to, i am able to express myself verbally, he cant on any level, he seamed frustrated that i didnt beleive what he had with her was rubbish etc but then he forgets he has told me every single detail of what they did together, so i seem to remember better than him what happened when and when i confront him with this information he seems to loose it. No i dont think of what happened as him Attacking me but its still a situation that could have escalated because when you loose control like that its unpredictible. Still glad kid were out, im very confused as to what to do, he has never done this before but once is still enogh to be a problem DS 8 seems to sense what happned and been really cuddly but im just numb. Coaching with Steve is in 2 days time but i dont want to talk to him about what happened, i just want to get back on the program. then there is a part of me that just feels so dejected i want to give up on the whole thing. Although i have only had 3 hours sleep last night i cant seem to settle and get some sleep now. Keep touching the sore bits on my neck to check that this really happened. feel so unsettled.

There is no good reason for him to even restrain you like that. So what if you throw things. He should have just stood back and let you do it, or just walk away. I think you do need to talk about this with Steve, you can't just sweep it under the rug like it never happened.

I may be out of line here, but it seems to me you both need to take a break. Even if you let him stay in the house, just take a few days to recover. Don't talk affair or marriage. Just take a time out. Maybe I'm wrong, others may have different advise - feel free to contradict me.

I have been reading yours and your husband's threads from the outset. While this may be quite controversial and I may take a tongue lashing from many here, these are my observations....

First, and let me make this perfectly clear, NO ONE SHOULD EVER TOUCH ANOTHER PERSON IN ANGER and you need to ask yourself whether this was a one time event or whether he will ever do this again? (If you suspect he is capable of physical violence toward you or your children ever again, you need to run, not walk, run to a safe house and stay away from him). I do not condone your husband's holding you by the throat against the wall. It must have been quite scary for you and I would bet he is appalled at his own behavior. That being said, what will we hear from his perspective with regard to what happened? The way you describe your behavior taking pictures of the wall and smashing them on the floor and some type of broken furniture does sound like the situation was quite a bit out of control. Did he feel you were throwing the picture at him (whether you actually were or not)? Was he afraid for his own safety and trying to bring the situation under control?

What I see in your situation is a husband who is trying very hard to recover your marriage - granted, he may not be doing it the way you would like, but he is trying. He is making the effort, which is a lot more than many here. There are those of us who wish our former spouses would have even tried half as much as our husband is. In you, I see a wife who keeps rubbing his affair in his face every day ad nauseum. You are so focused on his affair and the things he is NOT doing - not being romantic and doing all the window dressing to prove he loves you, instead of looking at what he is doing. First of all, there is no indication he is still in affair mode. Secondly, after learning, here, why it is so imperative if he wants to recover his marriage, he is looking for another job. The man comes home to you every day - he is sober and clean and brings home all his money to support the household. He helps you around the house, he is a father to his children.

Yes, your husband made a HUGE mistake that rocked the very foundation of your marriage, but he is trying to rebuild. He is counseling with Steve Harley - the best there is (I know because I counseled with Steve - notice I said "I" and not "we" because my XH refused). Recovery is not for whimps. It takes a long time. It is not going to happen over night simply because you've had one session with Steve. You need to be patient and you need to give it a chance. Most of all, though, you need to try as hard as possible not to keep rubbing his face in his A. Do you realize that by bringing it up every day, day in and day out, it is YOU who is keeping his A alive. YOU are reminding him of OW and keeping her fresh in his mind instead of allowing him to replace her stinky presence with beautiful, loving thoughts of you. I read your posts and think, "Good Lord, she has GOT to back off some because she is on over load."

My XH and I had multiple D-days and multiple false recoveries. He would call me and text me many times a day, send me e-cards and leave me little notes, he bought me a gorgeous 3 karat tennis bracelet, brought me flowers and took me out to candlelight dinners with champagne, he would romance me of the charts, tell me how beautiful I was and smart and successful - all the romantic window dressing your saying your FWH isn't giving you, only for me to discover he was telling OW every little thing I did wrong and what an awful wife and mother I was AND doing the same for her. (He even lied and told her I left our infant son unattended on the bed and he rolled off and was in hospital having all kinds of tests done to determine the damage "I" caused - never happened)! Not only that, he was an alcoholic. More often than not, my XH would leave for work at 7 a.m. and return at 9 or 10 at night, drunker than Cooter Brown. If he didn't pass out shortly after coming home, it would mean my being yelled at for sometimes hours. (I learned to turn all the lights out because then he couldn't see my face and I would sleep through his yelling). I would have things that were sentimental to me thrown and broken. I never saw his pay check and often found that he had taken parts of mine and spent it on all kinds of selfish pursuits. He spent $1000 of his severance pay from a job and spent it at a dancer bar. Our son was 2 months old when my XH started his A. He never once got up during the night with our son. I worked all day long, came home, took care of the house, the bills, our son, listen to him go off on me and then get up with our son multiple times a night. (Our son had colic/acid reflux until he was almost 3 and would wake every hour or so). My XH left us the first time to go back to the UK to live with OW when our son was 18 months old. He came back 6 months later for 6 months and, when son was 2 1/2, left again for 3 years. Both times that he left us, he used money from my bank account to pay his airfare. BH, that's what an active affair looks like. That's what a WH who is not trying looks like.

IF you truly and honestly can say this physical violence is a one time thing resulting from a situation that both of you contributed to that escalated out of control, slow down and look at what your FWH IS doing - he's trying to learn. That's the key. Give him time, he's a man... Leave things to Steve....don't try to do more than what Steve specifically instructs you to do.....don't try to do your husband's homework and don't let him do yours. Your trying to rush to the finish line of a Marathon when you've just crossed the starting line.....

Hey Brits thanks for the feedback its just what i needed to get some clarity of this situation. I doubt very much WS will volontarily discuss what happened today on his thread unless he reads mine then decides to comment etc..

Steve has pointed out that my WS has a great need for admiration from anyone who isnt in his family circle, this greately contributed to EA's on facebook, you can see this in his thread alot at the beginning, i dont read his thread now unless he wants to show me something specific so i dont know if thats still the case.

I didnt discuss what he did to me with him, i was just in shock. And didnt start feeling pain until the adrenaline of the situation died down, he wasnt apologising about incident when he was on his knees, he was apologising about A (and even then he was cracking jokes while i was in tears).

As far as the pictures and furniture go i only smashed one picture and it was no where near his direction, and while screaming "you had your fun, you got some exitement in your life, when is it going to be my turn to have fun, my life is just and endless rota of work, childcare and work, i have no life, i have had enough of housework and slaving away for nothing i cant take it anymore" i pushed over clothes airer full of laundry, i felt angry at the chores, i felt angry and trapped in a mondane exsistance with no sign of improvement.

As i said he has never done this before but he has lashed out at objects before, he never hits the kids because i beleive if you get to the hitting (however slight like a smack on bottom or hand) it is a sign that you are loosing control and me being a control freak i simply dont do it. He has learned his lesson on that one when DS now 8 was little and was talking to him when he was on pc, WS didnt warn him, didnt even tell him that he was unavaliable he just smacked his hand, i was upset because although it was slight smack he hadnt warned DS first, it gutted me how he just snapped this happened many years ago and has not happened since as i kicked off at him big time about it and he learned the boundries.

So in conclusion i think this is a one time thing if the situation at home was looking like it could improve even a little but unfortunately for me WS is getting wrong conforts from MB, he is thinking like most of you are (and i dont belame you for this) he is thinking he is atleast trying and is no where near as bad as the other WSes on here. This really doesent help me because the situation upsets me because its my situation and im living with it, if another member was having lesser difficulties than me then i wouldnt dream of saying to her what im here on here which is, "I understand your devastation but atleast your situation is not as bad as mine", this statement is unfair because we are all dealing with different things that have similar traits and no one should judge another persons situation as better or worse. its simply bad because each individual is having a hard time with dealing with their own devastation and there is no room for comparison in that.

I have stated many times i am no angel, i have never stated i am perfect in my behaviour in M but there is a reason for this,
as my thread says its been a year and during this year i have heard the following over and over again

I need to work on me before i can help you (this was at time of ws trying hypnotherapy)

I need to work on me before i can help us (this was at the time of his individual councelling)

I need time to work on me before i can help you (this is whenever WS wants to get out of housework)

I need you to back off A and then ill be able to help you (this was one of the reason i choose to numb my braincells for months on anti depressants and i did back off A big time)

none of the above prooved to be any help or lead WS to help me at any point so can u understand why asking me to stand outside in the cold again waiting for WS to supposedly try something else might really be pushing my limits.

I DO NOT expect overnight results however i do expect measurable progress in a way i understand it however small, if you refer to my post about his negativity you will see that. I have been neglected emotionally for a year so I dont feel that asking him to put some points in LB as a wicked request. I truly need it, I am scared of how my feelings for him are dying away and scared that by the time he catches up to the progress he is attempting to make my heart would be too shut off for it to matter if i knew i had time i would give it to him but i truly dont think i do, i have started looking at OMen and wondering about what life would be like with them etc, I would never cheat on WS but these thoughts are a bad sign none the less.

The reason why i throw A in his face daily is because he constaintly maintains hat he has out of sight out of mind attitude, this scares the hell out of me because i beleive that the day i dont bring A up is the day he will forget about all that has happened and jumps into another A. He also says that his memory is really bad so this forces me to hold the memory bank for him and its frustrating for me. Like his lack of care for OW, i care about what she is/does enogh for the both of us so he doesent have to.

another thing that i forgot to mention is that the application form for new job arrived on friday, have sat down with WS and helped him fill out as much forms but there was information that he needed to locate from his files, left him to do this, not done, on sunday attempted to get the forms ready for WS again, i got envelope stamps got info he needed off PC so all he had to do was transfer info onto form as has to be in his handwriting and post it. Form not done, uses excuse that he is working on M and had no time to do that so can you immagine my anger at having seen nothing concrete to supprt his claims so far, i have been at work sunday and today (monday) so really getting the feeling im being played hence the argument. WS says if i do all chores then he can have more time to work on M, if i get kids stuff ready for school the night before he can get them to school on time and work on M. If im giving all this are you all still saying that is should give a manipulative cheater the benefit of the doubt and wait as long as it takes for him to show progress? All i want is a sign however little that this is genuine and not done on MB to gain much sought after admiration or done at home to get away with leaving all the work to me.

Well well, just the response i expected from WS on his thread, the same old "admire me! ill tell you what happened but ill skim over the moderate bit ignore the bad lot".
Humm regarding him confronting OW, this was done to see if he would agree to it, as he is here tring to convince me OW meant nothing yet he peed all over his family for her, he is there telling me he doesent care about her yet he protected her mid fight so my natural reaction is if you cant give me security by showing me you care about me then why dont you do tell OW you never loved her, prove that you never loved her. I dont give a mokeys about OW this morning because it wasnt about her it was about him disgarding her for his family like he dumped us for her.

Other big issue that WS DOES NOT UNDERSTAND my pain, he never apologises ever for anything unless i tell him what to do, I TOLD HIM you can either apologise or just get the hell out during fight and guess what he apologised on demand, yeah thats supposed to make me feel better.


really H? go back and read your thread and get the heck away from mine go count how many excuses you made there. Biggest one that your using is translaed as "I PUT MY JOB ABOVE FAMILY".


Another convinently forgotten detail WS PLANNED ARRANGED AND BOOKED HOTEL where they had sex all of his own accord OW did not ask, hint, demand or even think of it herself, when asked about this mid fight WS admits it was all his idea and still maintains he cant remember why he did that. Yeah OW may try to convince me she planned the little outings (and even then thats a load of bull, remember that i found out about A because i looked up your googled history and it was full of you researching activities to do with OW) but he did all the thinking and planning for the BIG one, the one that involved him sleeping with someone he supposedly wasnt attracted to, really?? how dumb am i supposed to be? Why was his left out of his thead?? it was a big part of our fights and remembering it is what prompted me to freak out at the clthes airer the first time. second time was about the housework dull life.

really are you because the only reasong you are incorporating this on your thread is to look good, here are a few facts H that you seem to be forgetting about that have happened in the past, i wont go into detail but we both know what really happened, you havent text called or apologised for "attack" have you?? infact you didnt even check if i was ok after it, yeah thats a sign of someone ashamed!! you went to work and hid as usual then came home paniked about post and thught "these people think im a nice guy, i get my kick of admiration from them so got to save face, how can i edit situation to make it less grave and totally her fault" bingo well done hun you managed it but im not protecting your backside anymore if you wont be honest then i will do it for you.

Did you know that rage is contagious?

When will you start taking responsibility for your own behavior here? You're blame-shifting for inappropriate behavior and because it escalated to the legal definition of domestic violence you feel vindicated???

You started it; you were the flash point. He didn't strike you; he restrained you; considering the rage you were pumping into the situation, consider this could have gotten a lot worse; and acknowledge your hand in it.

My husband and I went through a domestic violence incident AFTER we'd been introduced to the Harleys.

My husband raged and raged all the way home from a visit to my parents; he said some very ugly things. I remember practically trying to put my fist through a car window - have no idea what I was thinking now - I look back on my actions and am embarrassed. My actions were entirely MY RESPONSIBILITY. My husband's actions were entirely his. But when things snapped and crossed the line, MY ACTIONS were the ones held under legal scrutiny.

We fanned each other's rage flames until those flames doubled back on us both and led to a six month separation.

By far, you are the angriest betrayed spouse I have seen here on MB. By far. And you are the most out of control with your words and your actions.

Your actions are very destructive. You do the very thing you accuse your husband of doing. Seeking validation for wrong actions - making excuses for your behavior. And you want to do some very personally destructive and maritally destructive things to have assurance of what? What assurance will you have once he destroys himself personally and professionally for you?

Get to a therapist today; don't walk - RUN.

Because the path you insist on taking is self-destructive and soul destructive.

I remember feeling dead for a week after our blow-up. It took months to put me back together. Rage is incredibly destructive to that internal energy that makes us do healthy things. Self-nurturing things.

Just for today, hold back on the affair catharsis behaviors - they're not doing you any good. Instead, have a day where you eat healthy, exercise and if you can't sleep, listen to instrumental calming music - classical like Bach, or new age like Kurt Bestor's Evening Angels or "Secret Garden".

Then start examining what you want out of life, personally. What kind of a person you want to be. Inventory who you are independent of him.

Life isn't fair. The balance of who does the heavy lifting in recovery after an affair is usually heaviest on the one least deserving of the burden. But if you don't do some heavy lifting, and instead keep piling on to your husband, YOU will not survive - not because I think he would hurt you, but because your actions are soul destroying. You will look back on this time and your lack of self-control and self-containment and lack of dignity with shame ten years from now. You will cringe at your own actions. Well - maybe you won't. But I guarantee if that if you can't cringe at what you are doing - if you can't feel shame, then perhaps you both should reconsider trying to recover the marriage. Because if you don't cringe ten years from now, you will still be in the grip of this hatred of him; which won't make for a healthy place for your children to grow up.

Being wounded - even mortally as you have been by this affair, does not give you license to behave less than yourself.

I hope you understand, I am trying to shine a light on a more dignified and healing path than the one you are on; but you have to see clearly that the path you have chosen so far in this recovery is dangerous and destructive for you and your children - all in a quest to destroy your husband.

Your husband, if he were a lessor man, would walk away from you right now, get a divorce and not look back. But he hasn't. He has picked up the impossible demands you have made on him; he has called and consulted with the best marriage recovery doc in the business and is doing more than he's used to doing. Picture a 350 pound man (emotionally), who's been on the couch all his married life, who all of a sudden, gets a clue and tries to run marathons. He's incapable of doing what you ask, so you scream and demean yourself by throwing things and destroying things - shocking your children when they see the carnage later.

You need time to get in recovery shape yourself. I wish I were there and could give you a hug and take you for a head-clearing walk and help you refocus on you; who you want to be, and how you want to behave, not because of him but because you are sick and tired of behaving "less than" because something yanks your chain. You want to determine your destiny rather than have it chosen for you.

I hope this makes sense.

Hi BH28,

I have to agree with KaylaAndy. Let me tell you where I am now compared with 7 months ago.

I know now that it is no-one's responsibility to make me happy. I need to be happy within myself and with who I am as a person.
I choose how I react to other people's actions and re-actions and I get to choose whether to get upset or shrug things off.

I know that I will be a happier person with DH then without DH but I have to live with the choices he makes and I choose how I deal with those choices.
If WS decides to divorce me, I know that I would be happier with a new boyfriend than without one. But I can't rely on anyone else to make me happy in the first instance. They can only make me more happy.

Neither you nor your WS are in this place yet. You are still reacting to his affair and choosing now to not be happy with any efforts that he is making. His physical re-action to your anger was his choice and not a good one. But now, you get to choose how you re-act to that.

Take a deep breath. Try to control your anger when you are around him and the children and communicate in a more calm manner. Things will get better but you have to be patient.

BH, you know that I've posted a lot on your WH's thread in the past and many posts defend you. With that said, here's my take on your latest developments:
1. You H never, ever, ever has the right to lay a hand on you. This is a serious breach of any marital guidelines. You both need to deal with this assault.
2. However, when I read about your outburst, both in your words and in his, I could see my mother. She would often go into rages and throw things, break things that were precious to me, screaming and yelling. Yep, there were times when she and my dad got physical with each other as well.
As a child watching this, I never could understand why she had these outbursts, yet it became normal to me growing up. It was not until I was in my relationship with the man I would eventually marry, that I started to realize these outbursts were unacceptable.
You see, I had started to do exactly what my mom did. When I was mad, I would trash the room and break things. I thought that's what normal people did. After a lot of counseling, I had an "ah-ha" moment and realized that this was NOT the way a grown woman behaves. I'm happy to say, I haven't had that kind of outburst in more than a decade.
But with you, I hear my mom's voice. "I was tired." "He wasn't doing what he was supposed to do." "He did this and that..."
YOUR reactions are NOT about what HE did. They are YOURS. You must own them, just as I told your WH that he must own that he gave you an STD.
No one is blameless in this situation. Yes, your H chose to have an A, and that is indefensible. But it is NOT OK for a grown woman to have a temper tantrum like a 3-year-old.
You both need anger management counseling. At the very least, read up on the subject, for your childen's sake.
By the way, my mom? She's 70. Married to her second husband. To this day, she STILL has those kind of temper tantrums and thinks it's OK. You need to break this cycle NOW.

Positively BRILLIANT response from KaylaAndy! I spent last night and this morning, while I was dressing, thinking about how to respond to your post from yesterday and KaylaAndy said it much better than I could have ever hoped to. The only thing I would add is that, while you want your FWH to meet your EN's NOW, what are you doing to make it a welcome/receptive environment so that he will WANT to meet those EN's. Perhaps, your Angry (and possibly, verbally abusive) Outbursts and Disrespectful Judgments (in MB lingo, LoveBusters) are breaking him to the point where he doesn't know how to meet your EN's or is afraid that no matter what he tries, you'll just continue attacking him for his A.
I did not intend to minimize your experience or your pain. I have been around MB for many years, I usually only post when I can offer legal advice or suggetions on how to best navigate the corporate work environment to expose an A, as those are my only areas of expertise....certainly, I am not an expert on how to recover a marriage, because I was not successful in doing that.

I posted to you, though, because in reading your posts, I see a lot of the "old" me in you. I, too, was very controlling. I was stuck in victim mode. I have learned, too, that I was hyper-critical of everything my XH said or did. That is why I posted to you, because I felt an affinity toward you.

After my marriage ended, I had what I call an "epiphany relationship" that opened my eyes to how I treated XH. It was an epiphany because, this time, I was on the receiving end. The man I dated was very controlling and verbally abusive. Nothing I did was ever good enough for him. If I did exactly what he told/me asked me to do, it still wasn't good enough. The bar was every changing. I call it an epiphany because I had the good fortune to read a book called The Emotionally Abusive Relationship. It not only caused me to run as fast as I could from that loser, but it also caused me to do a lot of soul searching. It caused me to apologize to my XH for the way I treated him. Certainly, my behavior was not a justification for his A or his drinking (he is now sober for 6 months), but I can now see how it made him feel and how little he wanted to be around be becuase I constantly made him feel like a failure. The loser I dated eroded my self esteem with his constant haranging about what I did or didn't do. I can now see where I did the same to my XH.

Right this is the last time im going to read W thread but Im not going without making something very clear.

This is the FIRST time ever that my W has lost control and started phyically lashing out (throwing things) and as yesterday was the first reference to this incident i dont understand where everybody is getting the idea that she is an abusive partner.

It is not possible to give every angle and every detail within posts on this forum. Each post would be essays. The fact is each and every one of us has to select the most appropriate material at that time and try to express it the best we can to cover the point we are trying to get across to a wide range of users.

Obviously my W as the BS is going to be angry and heartbroken, you can ALL relate to that im sure. The fact is that she has had to deal with so much of my s**t over the last year that she is totally and utterly emotionally shattered. Look at it from her point of view. She is very good at analysing and offering advice. Our friends and family are always seeking advice as they value her brutally honest side and also her progressive thinking in situations.

Throughtout the year she has told me what she needs me to do to meet her EN but I have chosen not to do it for some reason or another. You can only imagine her frustration when I come on here day after day asking 'what do I do?'

I believe this situation isnt getting across to everyone fully, it looks as though we are still living together, im making a little effort at last and shes just being very unreasonable with all her requests and efforts I make.

The truth is she has suffered frustration at the highest level with me for a full year now, and when I do finally make an effort its pitiful and I dont get how to personalise it. You imagine living with someone for 10years and them knowing so little about you. Yes some uers WS may not be at home and other terrible circumstances, but if they were at home they would more often than not know what to do, no???

However the sid eof my W that WE havent got across is that she is so loving that when someone (anyone) shows care to her they get it back 10 fold. Anything Ive ever done for her, she has instantly repayed me with such love. This side of her has been lost in her posts as shes come to you at her most desperate and vunerable time.

You should be focusing on kicking my sorry [censored] and not focusing on someone who already feels guilty for her actions, and it getting continuely let down by her supposidly loving H. She should not be made to feel guilty for her actions, she is a loving person and posts like the couple above ARE NOT NEEDED OR ACCEPTABLE.

She constantly gives herself time to read other threads and wants to help anyone she can offer good adviec to, whether thats supporting the marriage or admiting its over. You will always get honesty with her, but sometimes you just need to look through the anger and remember where she is personally.

I am shocked that as WS or BS you all turned on my W so viciously, you of all people on this forum should be able to empathise and sympathise with the most difficult circumstances????

Im going back to my own thread now, wonder if i'll get needlessly criticised for speaking my mind too??

Sorry for hi-jacking your thread babe, but im getting angry on your behalf.... love you x

Emptionally,

your wife WAS not mishandled by anyone here. You are way out of line. NONE of the good and caring VETS on here are going to let bad behavior slide, EVEN when that behavior was done by the BS.

It is not acceptable to throw items around, it is not acceptable to make demands, it is not acceptable to curse and scream. She had CHOICES.......

Not2fun

ps.....Kayla, as always my friend you advice is dead one.....I LOVE you!!!
Brit, good to see you and your post was amazing as well

yllanoitomE-
Howz about you stick to your own thread. Your wife doesn't need you to defend her. She needs you to work on your own demons. I find your entire post patronizing.
Why don't you spend your time getting your resume out there rather than reading what we're discussing with your wife? Or, beter yet, why don't you do some reading of your own?

Slight TJ for yllan
It is great to see you defending your wife like that, however, I think replies have been made based on your wifes comments and the way she talks about you and because of the way you have been asking for help on your thread.

I, for sure, although wanting to help your wife have felt very uncomfortable doing so because of the tone of her posts - they put me on edge - I have to agree - like no other BS Ihave seen on here before.

I can empathise with your W, having too been on the recieving end of physical behaviour from my H.

J moved out for a couple of months and has made incredible progress - reading about anger, passive aggression, attended an Emotional Coping skills course and goes on an angermanagement one this w/e (all on the NHS).

Whilst he was moved out I was able to work out how my behaviour and attitude caused such triggers for him. Like you, he would mosey along and then bam all of a sudden lose control (only physical 3 times in 12 years).


You have punishing work schedules and home commitments, you both need to make more time for your M if you are serious about it.

BH,

Make a plan. Do not accept this again. For me just finding out about the local refuge and giving them a ring, working out what would happen with finances and finding out abou benefits; gave me the confidence to know that I would be fine alone and sent a very clear message to J that I wouldn't tolerate it again.

Ok this is really getting ugly and its got to stop now. Im here to get help not to be judged. I am shocked that WS has decided to stick up for me but saw me crying declaring i dont want to post anymore as had enough, im having hard time already without the need to be kicked while i am down. He read the posts while i was on the school run and decided he has had enough. What he feels about you and site is his to deal with i have my own mind and here is what i have to say for myself for the below highlited comments.

1) Since day one i have followed and complied with every single piece of advise that has come my way, I have got off my backside and got WS job opportunity, I have bought and read SAA, I have started coaching with Steve, and most of all i have been honest about the way i feel on here, yes i dont sugarcoat it but thats just the way i am. some people like my bluntness some dont, i cant please everybody no matter what i do. the only subject i struggle with is xmas party but then im working on that just because i dont instantly get the fact taht i shouldnt go does not mean that im not working on it. I am clearly not someone who comes on here to vent, be miserable then not try to help themselves one bit.

2)I dont like follwoing the heard so to speack, if i go on a thread where everyone is being postitive about a couple getting back together i try and give advise that is not the same as everyone else, I FULLY Read the thread by that person, GET MY FACTS straight then i would give them the more negative POV. If i got on a thread and everyone is being negative i do the opposite (refer to TM and Claygal threads for verfications of this) I am never going to be the type of person that follows in with everyone because whats the point of repeating the same thing as other have said. If i am not helping then i will gracefully retreat (refer to TM thread on that one), i am not scared to admit when im wrong and happy to help people not just sit here taking and not giving back. However I am getting frustrated with site because there are people who DONT read all the facts before offering advise, they just post on as many threads as they can in a day not choose a few that they can help with and do it fully. For the above reasons now i will not be posting on anyone elses thread if i can help it because im sick and tiered of getting slammed just because i have a different POV (a POV that is still within Harley teaching but different from others), this isnt a competition its real life and people on here need eachothers care and attention. I am sorry to say i am not the only member who feels this way i have had email contact from members who feel afraid to say things on here for fear of being slammed. I will not divulge who those people are for obvious reasons suffice to say i am not alone in this.


Now in respnse to specific comments

see below

I dont understand or maybe see where i have NOT taken responsibility for my own actions, i have stated several times that i am no angel. Yesterday when i posted i was still in shock and i was too caught up in relaying the details of what happened. Did i once deny i threw things, did i once say i was good he was evil?? no i didnt, i dont think what i did was right but i do understand why i did it this doesent excuse it but it does help me because when i understand why i do things (thanks to 3 years of thereapy that i am still in) it helps me prevent them from happening again rather than just sit there going "i did this cause im scum and thats the end of the matter". I did express i did not feel safe after what happened NOT because i thought WS was going to harm me but because WE BOTH lost control quickly and i didnt like that hence why i was prepared for him to leave until we can get to a safe place again.
Still there is alot of good avice and i really appreciated the overview at a point where I really needed it.

I use the site to express my views so that i am less critical of him in person, this was my venting space, this does not mean that i put him down, discourage him and call him a faliure when he tryes to do things please refer to below post for clarification, I do appreciate small steps he takes most of all i do want my M so I grab on to little rays of hope that can get me through tough days.


With him I try to encourage as much as i can but i need a safe place to vent express the other side and used this site to do this, i have now learned my lesson that this is not what to do and if i do carry on posting i will bear that in mind.

I am truly sorry that my behaviour has reminded you of your mothers as this is also a common behaviour trait my mother had and i strive to live my life being as different from my mother as i can, i am stil in thereapy to address the damage she has caused me. I am too much of a control freack to do this on a regular basis, i dont drink, never have done drugs because I DONT LIKE loosing control of myself. I do not find it acceptable and will rather walk away than do that. As WS pointed out this was the first time this has happened, I do not throw temper tantrums and the last time i lost control of myself was when giving birth to DS 5 who has heart issues, i didnt know if he would survive the birth and when i went into premature labour i was screaming in fear in the delivery room telling staff that I didnt want to push him out but he was coming out regardless. I would like to think MB members can make exeption for my loss of control on that one. I am patient with the children, i dont shout or smack them, and they have benefited from this a great deal, they are patient and loving with eachother and us.

I dont want WS to meet my EN now as Steve put it so clarly this would not work, He says i have wound on leg and until thats attended to there is no point meeting EN at this point, I respect his opinion however I want some proof that this attempt at mariage is not fake or taken as an opportunity for WS to cake eat in the sense i do all the work and he pretends to do his share of M building as this has happened so many times before. I am scared that im falling out of love with im as stated many times on this thread, and want something i can hold on to to get me through the bad days. I dont want to loose my family and if i do fall out of love with WS there wont be a family, this is not a threat made to him to get him off his backside, this is the reality of how i feel.

As far as chriticising WS he is the one doing that enough for the both of us and as highlited in above post this is clouding good moments. Its something we discussed and its something he is addressing well now.

The sentance that hits me where it hurts is when you refer to being stuck in victim mode. this is something my therapist (who helps me with childhood issues not A) has pointed out and i hated to think of myself like that but its true. I will keep that in check but the other side of not feeling like a victim in this situation is what?? I would genuinley like to know

I'll back off.
To those of us on the board, the abbreviated version of what was described was that you "tore up the house," and then your H "grabbed you by the throat."
Those are the words the two of you used to describe each other.
Obviously, BOTH of those descriptions gives us cause for alarm.
Good luck.

BH - I don't want to discourage you from posting and venting here - it's just that we can't seem to keep your husband from reading your thread - so there's a distinct possibility that the zingers you feel and you vent about here, are going to be delivered anyway. You can't shield him from what's real.

My intention in responding to you is not to judge you. You are not bad or good in my eyes. My heart goes out to you because I've been there.

I'm posting to encourage you to look more deeply at your own behaviors and thoughts. When I say you are more angry than I've experienced other betrayed spouses here, consider that it's not throwing things or destroying things alone that give me that information. It's your desire to crush OW and your attention on "saving" other couples from this predator is a rage reaction. It demonstrates an inability to think past the present pain into the what-ifs of certain situations. It also demonstrates that you are giving her way too much power to hurt you now.

I'm posting to encourage you to get a little Scarlett O Hara Attitude going - one thing about it - when Scarlett was faced with things beyond her control, she'd "think about it tomorrow" and she'd intentionally focus on what she had the power to fix right now. That focus will help you.

That's why I recommended making the list of attributes you want to be able to claim for yourself that are not part of your present character. Those qualities that you've surrendered to the hurt and the anger and fatigue of this last year.

Someone once used the visual of "tanks" connected by pipes as representing our connections to other people. The pipes can be disconnected at any time. But while the pipes are connected by emotion, there is a free-flow of love or toxic emotions flowing. If OW is represented by pure poison in her tank, is there any reason to maintain any connection to her by having ANY feelings about her whatsoever? You can't make poison anymore poisonous. So disconnect.

One last thought - healing from trauma like you've been through in the last few days can be painfully slow, or it can be fast, depending on your focus. Sometimes people NEED the painful path because they believe if they get over it quickly, it removes responsibility on the other party for the harm they've done.

You have to make that decision.

If you want to go the faster healing path, it will require a change in your focus from what it has been, but I'd be happy to provide support, if you choose to go that route. It's tougher at first, but oh so much better because the healing is more thorough, and the burden becomes very light with a change of heart and mind that comes through the process.

Let me know - the moderators have my email if you'd like to take it off line.

Staytogether you have been a great support to both of us however i am concerned that you feel uncomfortable in reading my posts and this is not said out of anger but i would please ask you not to read anymore because i dont want people to be uncomfortable but at the same time I really dont feel its fair for me to censure myself. I accept that the way i feel isnt for everyone to stomach and appreciate the honesty. I have 3 choises here

1)quit posting due to making people uncomfortable because i am unlike any BS that has been on here before (yes totally feeling like a freack now).

2) carry on posting being myself and accept i am different

3) post only when good things happen as that way no one can get offended but dont know how much help im going to get in that scenario.

someone please tell me what to do cause im really stuck on this one.

And ST please dont be offended by this its nothing against you infact i get the feeling alot of people feel the same as you and for the sake of MB harmony i want to address this.

BH: WOW Talk about a blow up

We all need to back off! Everyone take a breather! This site is a safe haven for EVERYONE. If that is the case then BS/WS alike are going to benefit.

BH: I am new to the site, so I don't know if you're "unlike any BS ever". You are not unlike me. I want to know that everything I am feeling, going through, dealing with no matter big or small can be thrown out here discussed, hashed out, shaken out and positive reinforcemnts achieved. Let's let the dust settle a little, you have been dealing with this a very long time. I don't know if your WH posting on your site is healthy or not, but it was nice to see him come to your aid.

Don't stop posting on my thread, i value your opinion. You had a most unsettling and horrific night, I don't condone the physical aspect of what all took place, I just want you to make sure your kids and you are safe. Put bounderies in place for both of you so that this will never escalate to his again. It just throws a big old monkey wrench in recovery. It sounds like you both put together "The Perfect Storm" scenerio and the boat was ripped to shreds. that's ok, hang on and jump in the life rafts and float until you see dry land.

I am so sorry for all the pain you are feeling. Take a couple days off from this site if needed, then come back refreshed and ready to swim. Talk openly and honestly with Steve, let him help with guiding you both to a safer way of working through the ugliest, hardest most horrible part of this A, the truth of both of your failures. Please know that when I say that that I too have had to face the ugly side of me, the ugly gut wrenching choices I made in my marriage that made the environment condusive to his choices. I don't take responsibility for his choice, I just know that I played a part in the dysfunction of my marriage.

Please know that my heart is with you, and your pain is not goin unnoticed or brushed away. Just take some deep breaths and go into a healthy holding pattern for a couple of days. Give yourself permission to push this out of your mind as hard as that will be, just for a moment. You are in this for the long haul, whatever that might be and whereever that leads you, conserve your energy.

Ask Steve about this tomorrow.

It might be best for you to both to continue coaching with Steve and not post here at all (neither of you). You are paying for expert advice, after all, so why not follow that to the letter, without the less-than-expert advice from us? We are well-meaning, and some of us have been through what you are now, but we are not MB professionals.

Hey imnot and Kyla

I am sorry really am that i made you feel like your views arent welcome. they are, i think both me and WS think the situation was incredibly violent because we compare it to a non violent exsistance that we have lived for 10 years, in prospective of actual violence that you hear about on tv etc this incident appears minor and insignificant, so i am really sorry that you appear to have been misled but it was scary for me because its new and dont have experience of personal violence to compare it to (well my mum throws stuff around all the time but i was just used to her beeing that way i didnt make the connection). As stated my mum actually shot my father because he was in an A, this has led me to be extra cautious with violence during and after D-day, yes i felt like slapping him but i didnt, i think of the legacy i have grown up with as a resul of her actions and its the last thing i want to pass on to my kids. I was the kid caught in the crossfire so i know what they would feel if i became my mother.

kayla

WS husband reading my thread is an issue and i have now asked him again not to do that, i am happy to give him fair feedback if he asks for it myself because i can explain it to him in less of a hurtful way. So far he has agreed to this but until i verify this i will refrain from total venting, i will try to be more fair. (yes the phrase Steve taught me "trust but verify" is now forever ingrained in my brain).

The issue with OW is that i am hoping once WS moves jobs i will be able to shrug her off, right now its like she is rubbed in my face everytime WS goes to work. I have stopped looking at her FB profile etc but still have an urge to see karma catch up with her and want to know about every single misfortune that hits her but I am trying to think "shes not my problem to solve" whenever i get carried away with helping/hating her. Part of me wants to rach out to her so much and just help her be a better person, part of me wants her to disappear, its hard but im really working on shes not my problem to solve thoughts.

I started going to a thereapy group 3 years ago to work on me, childhood issues and selfdistructive bevaior that i have about myself, as i said before i dont like myself one bit but got fed up at being 25 a mum and spending so much energy hating myself i joined this therapy group, I have come a long way there and worked so hard to get well all round but unfortunately A happened towards the end of my group attendance and it kicked up alot of issues that had been sorted. I havent been to group in weeks because simply cant face turning up there feeling like the faliure i have become but i will make an effort to turn up next week and start my own personal recovery.

Beleive it or not i am trying so hard to hold onto the postitives that have come out of this mess. for example i used to work for a big insurance company earning well and after A I had brakedown didnt want to go back there (as it was an hour away and everyone knew what had happened and i just wanted to be closer to home, i wanted to be where i felt safe and near the kids), they tried to keep me by throwing money at me but i still walked away, i felt so worthless i got a job at the local Macdonalds, claning etc, because it was local and felt thats what i was worth, I am now being made manager but dont want that, i am focusing on what i have always wanted to be and that is being a paramedic, i am due to apply in december and only hope i get in, so i am trying to be positive everytime i go to work and think hold on this is just a temporary thing its perfect stopgap to my dream job, i do resent WS on the days i am elbow deep in cleaning the toilets but then i have to take my share of responsibility for not coping after A and choises i made.

this is just one example of how i have tryed and trying to make the best of a horrible situation. I keep thinking that if we get through this we will have such a great marriage that one day we may even be greateful for A. The only way A will go away is if we build a fort together and thats why i work so hard at getting it out of the way.

As far as what happened yesterday i am still so in shock i cant describe it more accurately than that, i dont knwo how to feel about it (and this is coming from someone who knows themselves well) im confused, im not angry at all (very strange for me) im almost sedated by what happened so would welcome all the insight and help you can give me. Have spent the day really sedated, sleepy and just not being able to think clerly about mundane tasks, i dont recall many details of what happened anymore (blocking out?) and WS has been very supportive loving so confused.

Hey BH - You seem to be in a better place today. It is very hard to get past the pain and anger. I am having a hard time with that myself right now.

Just wanted you to know that I have been thinking about you and praying for you. I will also say a prayer for your new job as a paramedic!!

Blindsbetty and SC,

thanks for your input, I dont think i am at a place where i am able to come onto the site and talk about whats happening in M right now, things have been very nice today but it just makes the whole thing more surreal so i do think it is wise to take a few days off and get advise from steve.
BS you are more mature than me because you are a grown up and i feel like i am still a kid in so many ways playing at being a grownup. I do admire the way you handle your WS and wish i had more grace like you. You understand the well what has been lost for us as you and WS were your one and onlys for a very long time and unfortunately there are very few people i know who can understand that side of the loss. Your WS reminds me of mine so much that i feel real sympathy and care for him, he loves you he just doesent know how to deal with the mess, because he has lived a long time in a sheltered position where he hasnt had to deal with other women often. Just take care of eachother and remember nothing can breack the years of love and care you have given eachother if you both want to hold onto it.

Thanks Clay i think about your situation alot too, really really hope from the bottom of my heart that your WS can see the light soon. Today has been good but i am still sedated mode, im not happy or sad just numb, the fight took so much energy out of me but then that seems to be normal according to some posts i read on here. The fight was building up for weeks now its out the way im almost glad of the release of tension, built up anxt and resentment. Im not saying the fight was good i really am not im just trying to hold onto something positive. Maybe now the outburts is done we can refocus on things without all the attached bagage and prevent the bagage from building up as we both know where it can lead and thats not good. will talk with steve tomorrow and see what he says.

Bh,

The answer is A SURVIVOR....all Betrayed Spouses are victims of their spouses infidelity, but not everyone necessarily always survives....not completely anyway.....

Your personal healing from this travesty is something only YOU can do. It is not something Emo can do for you. Lots of people have been through an affair where their marriage didn't survive. And the still survived and THRIVED without one ounce of help from their Ex's.

I know its not fair......yeah it sucks, but anyone who has every been a victim, whether it be physical abuse in childhood, Sexual abuse, emotional abuse, all of them have to heal on their own and that is usually done without any help from the perpetrator.

Also, as far as getting "angry" or "hurt" by what people post to you here, take a step back.....re-read what those posters tell you. Figure out "WHY" you are angry or hurt. Figure out specifically what was said that hurt you. Then go over it and over it......

For me, I used to get really angry and upset with Mimi when she posted to me. Man, she used to pack me a whollup. And good gosh, I would get so mad. BUT,,,,,,when I took the time to re-read what she was saying, more times than not, she was RIGHT. My behavior, re-action, whatever was going on, usually was a wrong, that needed to be corrected on my part.....


((((((BH)))))))

not2fun


ps....you need to stay off H's thread as well....I am of total agreement that this should be a "safe" place for BOTH of you......

I have read your entire post, and believe me you are not different. I have offered no advice b/c i seem to be, much like you, hopeless in my situation. I think many of the same thoughts, have many of the same arguments, etc. Have never been physical but have had some knock down dragouts. All I know is keep trying. If someone says something that you don't like, ignore it. I just feel like I don't have any advice to offer you. Keep trying, it can't hurt.

Not2fun
Thanks again for the hugs and input, i can see the logic in what you are saying but not sure i can call myself a survivor yet, I survived the first punch now just trying to heal from the injury, can i be a survivor while healing.

As far as posts go i wasnt angry at anyone i was really frustrated because i thought i could communicate my feelings well only to discover i really cant and was really disappointed in myself for not being able to convey situation in a way that was better understood. I make a point to reply to everyone so that eliminates my running away from difficult posts (however it does make my thread rather lengthy). Hopefully ill learn from this that i need to communicate what im feeling better and in a priority mode, yes i feel lots everyday but what part is relevant and can i get help with on here etc. Just venting on here is not productive.

I totally agree we need to stay off eachothers threads thats why i moved his post on here from earler on today to his own thread so he doesent have an excuse to look at mine and people can discuss things with him directly on his thread. I didnt read any of his post just moved thread.

Hurtandshocked

thanks for your support too im sorry your feeling bad too, i hope i can catch up with your site when i get back on MB sometime next week. I will keep trying and will try to learn from previous errors, I am new to this site and i am definitley no expert dont sell yourself short i am sure you have advise to offer when you are ready to do so.

As far as trying goes i want to get 2 things out of this site and if i feel that i cant get them then its only fair i retreat,

1) i want to get the help and advise from varied people who are in SAA position.

2) I want to help (directly or indirectly) people who are in SAA position.

I have got a great deal of love and care from members here and they are my sanity line in this mess, but i have also overstepped the mark in direct advise i have given and i am ashamed of that, there is one post in particular i want to apologise for but feel too ashamed to even bring it up so i will refrain from posting for a while unless i feel that i can be fair in a situation without anger being able to transfer onto the person i am trying to help people on here are in vulnerable positions and having experienced one or two bad posts i now know how bad this can feel so will be careful with others.

Well hey BH
Don't know about mature(unless you're harrassing me about my age)lol. Feel like an immature schoolgirl asking if her boyfriend likes her most of the time lately, but thank you for the compliment. WS - don't know how sheltered-yes he is physically speaking unless the EA went further than I know and he is admitting to, but he has always been the life of the party, a big flirt. Not one that made you feel uncomfortable, just a real nice guy that always made you feel good about yourself. In fact, that is something I always loved about him. Easy to talk to, kept everything light and funny. I just hope I can value that again. I hope he hangs on with all his might to me and our many years together, our family unit and I really hope I can hold on until he comes back full force. You and I we're hoping for the same things. Apologies, honesty, remorse, explanations....restitution, valued for who we are and what we have been through, loved without a shadow of doubt, convinsed that we are first and only choice, forever chosen because we give their life hope, peace and they are better men because they love us! Well to much to ask for?

Nope not too much to ask for but too much to ask for in one go. Priority of what you need most right now and try and discuss with your H, see if you can tackle one at a time. Hoever as i have found out the hard way apology wont happen fast that one takes forever, if you explain once why you need it and leave it at that it will then have been communicated to H and he can think about it and get back to you in his own time. Beleive me it will mean more done this way, I pushed instrustions of how i want apology down WS throat so much that when he did it was like i was apologising to myself the poor guy had no idea what he was saying. Now i dont expect the full blown up shebang, I am happy with little and often i really am. Today for example i didnt even need to tell him what i was sad about when we drove to the spot where he first told me he loved me, he knew just knew and volontarely said im sorry without explanation. It meants sooo much more. So my advise will be just break it down for him one need at a time. too much might overwhealm him

BH,

Just checking in on you....don't you have your session with Steve, today? I hope it goes well for you both. Listen to him closely and follow everything he tells you to a "t".

BB

Hey Brits councelling at 8:30pm our time and 2:30 Central time so in a couple of hours. However i did say i would not post on here for a couple of days something has happened and i need help

WS is going through investigation at work and is likely to now get sacked, this is due to COW framing him by basically leaving a store gate open on monday during her shift, WS does not work near that department so he was unaware of this gate, when managment arrived the next morning they advised WS that he should have checked all gates locked (he usually does this with the help of the store sensor, there are door sensors on every gate and if one gate is open it would allert WS before lockdown) this gate in question is the only gate that has had the sensor removed because it is broken and therefore its permanently shut. No one entered the store and stole anything overnight but WS is being done for miscunduct and not following procedure of phisically checking all gates locked. I am happy that he may not be working there any longer but upset as no job means no money for Xmas. COW did this soo on purpose and i am really miffed at situation because once again its the kids that suffer the most. How do i overcome urge to retailiate?? please help me, i am trying to be more serene but COW is really making it difficult. The new job application was sent today will be hearing back soon but as of the nature of the job it requires a CRB check (criminal records check) this is not a problem because WS does not have criminal record but its an issue because a CRB check takes minimum of a month to come through as its very detailed check.

M has been put on the back burner while we try to figure out what to do and how to survive bills etc with xmas coming up, I am gutted really didnt need this right now (or ever really) and the fact that COW has a hand in it, it makes me so upset. I dont understand why she has kicked off, there has been NC between her and my family for atleast 9 months now so i just dont get it, maybe she was wating for the first opportunity or maybe she was ok until JJ started work there and saw how friendly WS and new manager are and got threatened.

Hi BH28

I'm sorry about the look of the job. Not great timing. It's easy for me to say "look at it as an opportunity."


I was made redundant in the summer and then reinstated for fewer hours. We were gutted about the loss in money but it did give me time to focuson my M and family.

You guys maybe finacially poorer at Xmas, but wouldn't it be fab for those kiddies if there Xmas was soooo rich because there parents had had more opportunity to work on a loving relationship with each other. Worth so much more than them than bucket loads of plastic crap that gets stuck in everyone's feet and creates yet more housework.

I love the smile my DD has when she catches me and H in a hug. If work does dry up for your H - take advantage.

Thank OW for giving you the opportunity to spend more time on each other.

I am now pleased that I lost hours and financially we got a bit lucky with coming out of a fixed deal on our mortgage and DS flooding the house so that insurers gave us a �30 a day meals allowance while we styed 24 nights in a hotel whilst work was going on. We didn't spend the money because friends and family cooked for us. We have since returned the favour by cooking for them.

Quite often these things are never as bad as they first seem. There willbe a silverlining to this.

Hope your counselling session is succesful

SOS call, my appointment with steve was 30 mins ago keep calling but getting his answerphone is this normal?? i assume these appointments can run over time but getting worried as 30 mins so just need to check with the pople who have used coaching, is this normal, i have left message as directed

Dear BH

So sorry to hear about the job, can your friend JJ help in this situation at all. Can it be proved that COW left the gate open? If not be carefull about involving corporate in all this mess.

I like what staytogether had to say, you and your husband together forever, wonderful loving x-mass priceless. Hang in there and breath....this to will pass.

Ok panic over, got through to steve had coaching (hes just as stubbon as you lot) and now been given some home truths about party (i really thought i could talk him round to letting me go! nope the man is stubbon and really got my character down to a tee).

WS talking to Steve now so i have taken chance to jump on here and hijack PC. The quick version of advise by steve is tell WS he is attractive to me when he does something right (doh why didnt i think of that one, really?? why didnt I? feelind really dumb) it makes perfect sense to appeal to his admiration side to help him progress! He has been feeling really down because he hasnt had many cuddles from me but i have been so self involved that i havent really noticed his pain. Thanks Steve its frustrating to when something so simple makes so much sense yet i just didnt see it.

As far as WS job, yeah i can definitley see the silver lining but gutted and i mean gutted for the bull we are going to have to deal with when no paycheck comes in next month. Yes I can stil be there for the kids but my first instinct is to pick up every extra shift available at work to make sure the bills get paid. Ill rather hell freezes over before i allow the kids to have another miserable christmas because of COW, I see it now as a challenge to make sure they have the best time ever. I can ask my mum and his parents for a loan and they would happily help so i can work something out but still really weirded out by OW sudden attack. WTF? where did all that come from i literally havent been near her in over 9 months, JJ is trying to help WS by pointing out that the company should have had working equipment on that gate etc and giving him ammunition to fight with but i dont know if the investigation next week will go well and although we CAN prove COW left gate open, it wont change the fact that WS didnt check it before leaving the store, the responsibility ultimately lies with him, she know this and she would have been caught on camera opening the gate but nothing can be done to her as she didnt do anything to brake procedure as far as company concerned. I really wanted to retaliate when i found out about this but I really feel like I would be giving her what she wants (more drama) if i did and to be honest i have better things to be getting on with, if she is so sad as to do something so cruel then she is beyond help. She is truly not worth it and for once im starting to see that i dont think shes vile anymore i just think she is a very very sad and lonley person that needs to get a life before her daughter gets old enough to learn form her behaviour as her 18 year old sister is alrady coping her and is now in A with married security guard in store.

BH, I can see that it has been very painful to have yllan working with the OW for all these months.

However, what do you think you will do with all that anger when OW is no longer present in your lives as a target to hate?

From what I've read, she occupies a huge area of your life and sucks up much of your mental energy. She seems to have become the focus of your emotions, and you also seem unable to 'see' yllan without seeing her.

BH, feeling anger is understandable, but constantly feeding that anger is a choice. You may not feel that you are 'choosing' to feed the rage, but the blunt fact is that you could 'choose' not to put her centre-stage in your mind and keep her there. Punishing yllan by keeping her alive in your marriage as a reminder of how much he hurt you, is also punishing you. Can you see that?

If yllan is 'let go' next week, then the OW will no longer be a problem in your life. What then?

TA

Hey TA, i dont think my attempt at a better attitude is coming through but ill try to give it another go, i have stated that i feel sorry for her, i have stated the she is no longer my problem. i was hoping that those attitude changed (as oppoed to got to teach her a lessong, and shes going down or even i really want to help her be a better person thoughts) would have come accross as slight improvements, i have hated her for so long its not going to change overnight and to be honest why waste engergy on trying not to hate her or even thinking about ways not to hate her, so maybe just maybe thinking "shes not my problem anymore" can go some way in addressing me feeding that anger, TA i could have done alot of things to retaliate but im not even going to waste anymore time to list them because it simply isnt worth it all I need to hold onto is that i didnt retaliate (and beleive me i have been waiting for her to give me a reason to floor her for a while now).
Thats what matters here I didnt retaliate = I have learned something new.

As far as where my anger wil be directed now im concerned about that too, i dont think it will go to WS, i care about him too much (hence why i used her as anger focus in the first place) i think there is a chance it will be directed at myself as i am the only person left to take it. Dont know how this will manifest itself but know its very probable and will just have to ride it out.
Please beleive me when i say I AM TRYING TO CHOOSE NOT TO FEED THE ANGER but got to find a way to do that fully.
The thing that has struck me the most is what MBers told me at the beginning that when you get on here no matter how long it has been since A when you are not in recovery it will make D-Day seem like only yesterday and it will awaken all the emotions back. For 6 months I have been sedated, i was on autopilot so now i have woken up i am getting bitten in the backside by all the stuff that i missed, It does feel like D-Day was only yesterday and i dont know what state of mind you guys where when D-Day happened but i guarantee if you try to remember you werent all that wise and logical infact im sure everyone would have gone through anger etc. You all learned how to disperse it appropriately not please teach me.

The anger goes a long way back to childhood.That is what, I think, Steve was talking about when he mentioned the sore leg If you are carrying unhealed emotional wounds from childhood the A is an added extra which fuses with unresolved residual anger from previous events.It tears away the scar tissue and exposes and reactivates the old sore.

My D day not only brought its own devastation but reactivated a betrayal by my parents.I suddenly realised that I carried a lot of anger which had been projected onto me by my BH father . His method of dealing with my mothers a was to to lose his temper with me. A far more effective way of revenging himself on her because she was always very upset when that occured.

The net result of all this emotional turmoil which filled the house with tension was to cause me to believe that my bad behaviour was to blame.

Children are egocentrically set up to take responsibility when there is a problem.

I think your best course of action is to get the most out of your other counselling sessions to figure out where your anger really originates.

BEST WISHES

When I was 28, more than 60% of my life had been in less than desirable environments. I had no role-models for "containing" my emotions. And I was terrified of others' emotional reactions, in particular "anger" or "rage". In contrast, my husband's response to "conflict" was to "engage". So I'd withdraw, and he'd pursue. I found myself in that same emotional trap that I had with all my heart had tried to avoid. I grew up with violence. While I admire the fictional "Scarlett OHara" for her strong will and how she set aside her own desires in order to do the necessary things in caring for her family - she was a tough woman. But she was also prone to tantrums. She'd revert back to the "spoiled brat" behavior sometimes. She epitomized my mother.

I hated that cycle - the temper, the loss of self control, then the damage control, then the reconciliation and recovery - I saw fewer and fewer completions to reconciliation and recovery than I saw the process stop at damage control - barely.

My parents had no clue the impact their violence and lack of self-control had on me.

But when my relationship with my husband started breaking down, the first 12 years of our marriage were mostly sweet, because we managed to get through to reconciliation and recovery. But then at the 12th year, just before our 12th anniversary, it all blew apart.

At that point, I started learning my personal path to recovery.

I still hate conflict and confrontation. But I hate the consequences of not speaking up and of not having boundaries more. So I do those necessary tough minded things.

I think the thing that helped me the most was the book - Seven Habits of Highly Effective People - and the process of working through the maturation process from dependence to independence to synergy. Dependence is that place we start - where our behaviors are conditional upon the behaviors of others - we live in reaction instead of action. The process of thinking instead of reacting is a tough habit to develop.

The next book I studied in my quest to become the kind of woman I wanted to be, regardless of what happened to me was "The Four Agreements". This one taught me how to not take anyone personally - which again, helped me choose to "respond" instead of "react".

Harley's books saved my marriage. But these other two books saved "me".

Hey Miopia and Kyla

Thanks for sharing your wisdom and experiences with me I do understand what you are referring to and i am sorry you had those experiences. I think that i have to give you a breaf summary of events that have made me what i am today in order to hopefully help myself.

1981 = I was born out of an A between my mother and a married family man and father of 3 girls, my mother loved my father more than life itself, my father saw my mother as the latest conquest in a string of A he has had. She has fallen pregnant by him before and after me yet she terminated those pregnancies and kept me because i was concieved at a time when she felt she needed something to keep him when he was loosing interest.

1983 = While present in the house my mother shoots my father in the abdomen twice, she had caught him in bed with an 18 year old kid and completely flips at him as she feels she had given up her family and everything for him. i was only two so has no memory of this, she then turns the gun onto herself but is interrupted by police. I am sent to live with my grandparents my mother only serves a minimal sentance because my father figuers that if he doesent support her claim of self defence in court he would be stuck with me.

1983-1989 I am raised by my grandparents in the most loving evironment, i am spoilt and surrounded by love and although my mother only served 9 months in prison she has now disappeared to party for 6 years leaving me with my granparents. I am legally adopted by my granparents and brought up to beleive they are my mum and dad and my mother is my sister.

1989 my mother decided she wants to chase my father yet again, they been having on/off relationship since the shooting but my father has met someone that threatens my mother so she uses me as a weapong to try and get him back to her, I am literally yanked from my parents (grandparents) and taken accross the world i was never told my mother was my bioligical mother, no one explained anything to me i just felt so much sadness and still remember the pain of missing my parents.

1989 - 1995 really six years of hell, my mother is determined to get my father she publicly attacks him (in court she literally takes her shoed off and tries to hit him with them), she turns up at his and his new womans appartment and makes me stand in the street in rags while she shouts how he should help look after me. She looses it a few times and i end up taking the brunt of her anger, still have scars from those days. I have gone from a loving environment with my grandparents to living in squallor, being beaen and used as bait on a regular basis, lets not even mention my mothers numerous male friends who would see me as an easy plaything to mess with. None of them actually managed to Rape me but a few got close.

1995 My father decides to bring up the shooting court case again (legally he could ask for a retrial in his own country if he felt that there was a mistrial in the country where original trial took place) he truly has had enough of the screaming, broken car windows and my mothers constaint chasing him. My mother finally gives up on him meet a man in the UK and once again Yanks me from any security i had built myself in Italy (friends, school, support sistem no matter how small). I arrive here aged 14 not speaking english and was an easy target for bullies at school, spent years hiding in the school toilets to avoid being made to get on my knees and kiss yet another bullys shoes to avoid a beeting.

1997- my mother has twins with my stepfather (he is a lovely person and was good to me) she has depression after the birth and leaves me to look after the children, at this point i have joined the church and my circle of friends were all christian teens so i wasnt a wayward kid, my mother bans me from going out and have to be in from school straight away or will get a beating and i have the sole responsibility for my brothers, I snap and take an overdose the overdose is so serious that i am admitted to a volontary psychiatric hospital for 9 months, there i am finally free to be a teenager. I am able to be normal amongst other teens in same life circumstances and do alot of healing.

1997 - 2000 i finally reach 18, I move out, i go to school, work in a supermarket then onto a pizza place to support myself, i am still not free of my mother as i am still in the same town. While i was in hospital i meet WS via letters, we become friends and penpals he lives an hour away so when our feelings become stronger for eachother over a period of a year i move to be near him, quit school get a room in a girly flat share and a good job with a travel insurance assistance company. I still have contact with my mother ( i couldnt just abandon the babies i had raised for her). I fall pregnant at 18 with DS and mother insists WH marries me, I dont have the strenght to argue, we get have a pitiful wedding in a registry office (i wanted him to marry me because he wanted to not because my mother was forcing him and as any little girl had dreams of a nice wedding).

2000 - 2004 Unlike other teens in this country WH and i decide not to go onto benefits and work hard to get a mortgage and buy our own house, we struggle financially but feel proud we are achieving something, 2003 i fall pregnant with DS number 2, i am happy as he was planned however this is short lived because when i get to my 23 weeks scan i am told he has major heart problems and offered a termination, at this stage i still have my christian faith, i refuse and pray and pray he survives, i have to quit work due to the stress of the pregnancy and we loose our house.

2004 - DS is born, his heart problems are not as severe as originally seen on scan, however he is born 6 weeks early only at only 3lb in weight, he has to undergo a heart operation due to mistakes at the hospital and having been given a medication that alters the blood flow to his heart becaus of the original misdiagnosis he is in critical condition for 10 days, at 10 days old he has emergency surgeory for another mistake hospital makes, they insert a drip in his neck using a needle too big for him and this causes the fluid to burst out of the vain flooding his heart and lungs, again he is in critical condition for weeks. I am still praying at this time, t 6 weeks he has swollen abdomen, i get told that he has blocked bowel, i insist he has not as not throwing up and pooping ok so didint understand where they get the blocked bowel idea from (at this point i am very untrusting of hospital) they insist, they stave him for 7 days while awaiting for a slot in theater, i cant hold him because the minute he smells my milk he starts crying for food again. DS goes into theater and is operated on surgeon wont face me he is hiding, i catch up with him and i am told i was right there is no blocked bowel so all that suffering was unecessary. by then DS has has so many operations and has caught so many infections in hospital his lungs are shot to pieces he is put on oxygen for 9 months. He comes home briefly on oxygen therapy, he stops brathing one night and WS resussitates him while I stand in shock, he is diagnosed with menemgitis and spends another 9 months in hospital. during all this time WS is living with first DS in hostel and i am living in hospital with baby. We get offered housing by government just before baby leaves the hospital the first time.

2005 WH and me are in huge court case against hospital wanting to do another operation on son, we disagree with yet another unecessary operation without proof that he needs it (they basically wanted to close off his stonach and feed him via a direct tube in his abdomen becaue they thought his food was getting into his lungs, numerous scans showed that no food was entering the lungs so we were opposing this drastic step) Hopsital gets child protective service involved we fight to keep our kids for 18 moths in the process i am accused of being a bad parent because i had a bad upbringing therefore will not know how to be a good mother, First DS is not even looked at by childrens services as he was doing well and therefore prooved their case wrong. We win the fight we clear our neame only to have a gag order issued by judge that we cannot discuss what happened to us with anyone, two child services workers resign due to the way our family was treated. I loose faith in people and God.

2006 Just recovering from all the above get pregnant with DS 3 no breathing space or recovery time from above trauma. He is healthy and beautiful.

2007 i fall pregnant with DS 4 again he is healthy but i am in shock as was done having babies ( I have poly cystic ovarian syindrome i dont get periods and was declared clinically infertile) I am happy but by now overwhealmed by kids. I love them but there is only one of me and 4 of them all 3 under five and in nappies, busy busy life.

2008 - After 5 years brake i decided its time to go back to work its time to start being a person again not just a mum, to the shock of everyone i land the insurance job with huge company, there were 23 people fighting for the position and i got it, I felt so proud and my confidence was soaring, I started to buy nice clothes (not the joggers and tshirts i lived in daily), loosing weight and getting hair and nails done regularly. Kids happy, I am happy. WS has A.

2008-now Struggling with A, struggling with this latest punch life has thrown at me and yes i have anger but i also have sadness and when anger subsides all that is left is the immense sadness. WS reminds me of my dad who has abandoned me, I remind myself of my mother who wrecked her life chasing my father, this situation is bringing out alot of unwanted and buried issues.

So thats me guys thats what happened in my 28 years of life so far and all i am concentrating on is a future where this bull will stop.

Wow! You are an incredible survivor.

I have a friend who's mother shot his father - he's an incredible artist, but still struggles with his relationships because of abuse and abandonment.

I know you may not feel much like a survivor right now. But start counting every day you stood up for yourself and your family as a victory. You'll find that you've done that a lot over the last few years.

It's hard to see God in the pain and suffering; sometimes it seems like He just left you to fend for yourself. But here are a few things to help you see His hand in your life. You had a number of years with loving grandparents so you know what a loving home is like. You prevailed in court, against a predatory medical system (we had an incident like that happen in Utah a few years ago, where the medical system tried to force chemo onto a healthy kid they had mis-diagnosed as having a particularly bad kind of cancer and wouldn't give the parents a chance to get a second opinion. They said the boy would be dead within six months if they didn't start treatment immediately - turns out the doctor in question was running trial for a pharma company and needed data). You have Marriage Builders and Steve Harley helping you through an extremely difficult time where you're feeling the effects of infidelity.

How are your brothers now? They must be in their teens?

Hey Kyla,
Thanks but i wish i was a better person so i can snap out of Victim mode in this situation. I gave you guys the lowdown of my life in the hope of explaining that the affair was the last straw at the end of lots of bull adn the reason why I have a blunt personality. I dont mind my life , I dont feel sorry for myself anymore, It was only when i had kids myself that things hit me on how a parent should feel about their kids and that made me revisit how my parents didnt feel about me up until that point i didnt know anything else now i know how much i love my kids and would protect adn prepare them form the horrors of the world for as long as i can i am sad my perents didnt feel this way about me.

My brothers oh dear thats a real mess they are now 12 and a year ago i felt i had no choice but to report my mother to childrens services (social services in UK) because i had witnessed one too many incidents when she stood there shouting at my stepdad in front of them telling him she doesent love him and they are the only reason she is there, it was such a tantrum and lots of other things were said that the kids didnt need to hear. In the middle of this fight (also happened in front of WH) I looked over at one of the twins and he looked so so sad, I told my mum calmly to just stop a second and look at him, she shrugged me off i then took the kids out for lunch to get them out of the house. She has also exposed them to explicit sexual material via posters and objects left around the house, one of my brothers then went on to act inappropriately with a girl at shcool (he was only 10 at that time) so i made a note of all of this and reported her, but when they investigated they saw that my mother and stepfather were well off and they had just got back from a holiday in USA so they thought that kids cant really be in bad situation and closed the file (its as if they think only poor kids can be abused). I dont know how else to protect the twins from my mother. She is very intimidating (yes even for the outspoken blunt me) I do try to have them over at my house on school holidays and they go home telling her why cant she be more like me, she then gets resentful and bans them from coming over for a while.
My stepdad is no help he is now involved in A himself (my mother knows and doesent care as long as he keeps paying the bills she married him for his money and out of desperation to get away from the courtcase being reopened in Italy) so stepdad is away quite a bit with the OW.

Ps social services were also so moronic that they forwarded my letter (written by me and my therapist reporting my mother and requested to be anonimous) to my mother by clerical error. So i cant contact them again or she will know its me and all hell will break loose and i wont be able to keep an eye on my brothers. for an organisation desined to protect children their incompetency baffles me.

Whew BH, you've been to hell in back in your short life. But you know, you can take that madness and turn it into something GREAT. What an inspiration you can be to your own children, how you've gone through all of that and are still standing. You can SHOW them what true forgiveness looks like.

I can see where your anger comes from and unfortunately your husband is the target, as is the OW-- two more people that have betrayed you in your life. The difference now, is that you have help to deal-- this isn't something you have to fight alone. You can let go. It's okay. Let someone take care of you for a change and you don't have to fight other people's battles for them.

I recognize myself in you to a degree. For a long time, I could go from zero to sixty in seconds when someone crossed me. That gets old sooner or later and it takes so much out of you physically, emotionally and spirtually.

Give those babies a hug and thank GOD for the gift of them. Your FWH can do what he will but your job for now is to work on your own healing.

See the triangle at the top of the page? That's really symbolic for a GOOD marriage. As long as your both looking UP towards Him, the closer you'll get to each other. I'm going to pray for you and your family, that God sends an unnatural peace and calm, and that you experience JOY and HAPPINESS like you never have before. There's a purpose for your life, and all your life experiences have been leading up to now --- for such a time as this.

(((BH)))

Thanks Princess,

I do understand what you are saying and at the risk of blowing my own trumpte i am constaintly helping my friends get through things, and my phone is always going off with them asking for advice etc right now one of my close friends is 32 weeks pregnant and the baby she is carrying will die at birth as has no kidneys and underdeveloping lungs, I am with her when she goes to the scans and try to explain to her whats going on as she isnt very medically inclined and still in shock mode, I went to the funeral directors and helped her pick out baby coffins, it was hard i wanted to run a mile and cry for ever but i was able to stand by her and put my feelings aside. I am dreading that in a few weeks ill be attending yet another childs funeral but its not about me its about helping her and thats all i have ever wanted to do is help people, so i dont understand why when this happened to me there is no one in sight to help me, to hold my hand. All my friends have disappeared, unless ofcourse they need some advice or help with childcare then im once again there for them. I have so much love to give anyone who cares about me but there seem to be so few that do. I am so scared to see that the world is filling with selfish people who only see themselves. I feel invisible.

I want to turn the negative into a positive, i want the A to become almost a good thing in the end, the thing that made our marriage strong, the thing that brings us closer. Thats the best outcome ever and i want it soo much, I want the wisdom that can come out of this situation so we can hopefully help our kids one day should they land themselves in a similar unfortunate mess.

As far as God goes there isnt a day that i drive past a church and dont want to go in, but I feel so unworthy of his care, I was so angry at him when DS was ill because i saw other children in the hospital not make it and i just didnt understand how the God i loved would allow such horrors to happen. He was present with me every step when DS was ill because he has been a miracle child, one day im sitting ther in the scan department being told the baby should be terminated becaus of severe heart issues, i pray with the pastor of my church, the next thing the baby is born with minor heart issue, if that wasnt God helping i dont know what is. So i know i really know how good and powerful he can be but dont understand how the bad things get past him. I heard a sermon called "blessed is he who is not offended in me" it was so good but i dont know how not to be offended. Im not angry at God for the things i have been through because I dont see them as that bad as i dont know anything else people are baffled when i say "my mother shot my father" with a stright normal face, im just used to that fact and have dealt with it. I also want my children to know God and to be part of a church, i got so much safety and love when i was part of a church as a teenager i so want them to have that.

I think that Mark could help you out here. He is so wise in his theology. My heart goes out to you and I understand where you are coming from. You whould try getting ahold of 'The Case for Christ' and 'The Case for Faith' by Lee Strobel. He has a very unique way of explaining things.

I only know that the things we endure make us stronger. I also sometimes wonder, as in the case of children or babies who don't survive illnesses, if it is God's way of ending the suffering. It is hard for us on earth to understand, especially when the pain is so great, but knowing they are in heaven with our Lord should provide us some comfort.

Everyone has one subject they cant handle and mine is kids/babies not surviving, it really really drives me to tears. I can handle adults passing, i can handle pets passing i can handle war crimes, i can handle poverty videos and almost anything (A excluded obviously) but babies, thats just my sore spot.
I dont like abortions either but dont push my views on those who have them its just something i hate to think about. So anything to do with new life and kids just hits my heart. I still want to become a paramedic and the way i have prepared myself for cot death etc is to try and concentrate on helping the parents on the worse day of their lives because that little soul is with God and in the best hands, so i see what you are referring to Clay.

Here is a quick update on M

Things are ok, chat to Steve has given us both alot to work with, WS is was really down today (my normal respose would be get your head out of your backside what have you got to be down about) but as of Steves advice I listened to WS tell me what was wrong (feeling low about work, his appearace and the fact that he is so thin), we were both due to go gym together but he was too low to go so instead of leaving him at home alone to get even more miserable I encouraged him to come to the gym with me, and when we were at the gym i made an effort to give him cuddles inbetween excersise sets. On a huge uplifting note for me got weighed at the gym and i have lost 18lb so far in 8 weeks, i have 20 lbs to go before i reach the ideal weight for my height so nearly half way. Feeling proud that I am doing it gradually and it feels like this is the first thing i have been patient with for a while.
I asked WS to just keep me updated on his plans for the week so i dont end up messing anything up by double booking things, he sees now that having a plan is a way for me to be more patient, for example if he says i plan to do something nice with you in two week i dont care about how long its going to take just like to know whats happening it stops me from being on edge.
I did ask Steve about posting on MB and he has advised to carry on however gave WS stern talking to about reading my threads. i genuinley dont read WS threads because as long as he keeps me updated and keeps the lines of communications open i dont feel the need to. All i ask you guys is not to refer to either of our posts on eather of our threads to help us keep this pact.

Hi BH! Who is your WH?

yllanoitomE is his MB ID (its supposed to be Emotionally spelled backwards)

Good day, making progress that I am comfortable and relaxed. WH (or should i start referting to him as FWH?) worked on a plan for the week while i was at work, he told me what he was planning to do everyday and this included two days off from working on A in order for us to just get back to normal and have a break catch up on TV and do Xmas shopping.

WH has week off from work (booked holiday last year to allow for xmas shopping) so feel realxed and at ease that this week we can both relax together so when working on M it wont be such a rush between jobs and kids. The plan he gave me for the week was great and even if he does not manage to follow the plan due to unforseen circumstances (that constantly happen in our lives) i am still alot more relaxed knowing whats going to happen over the next week i feel that i am not putting my faith in him blindly. Dont get me wrong he didnt tell me what he was going to do step by step he just gave me outline of next week (for example saturday is day for us etc, not said what we are doing).

The letting him know he is attractive to me when he gets it right task is going well too. He is getting more confident with actions and i am genuinley happy to see him happy with what he is doing rather than doubt himself.

Only little downside of today is that i am finding myself slightly irritated by something Steve said, when i asked Steve about how do i cope with the knowledge that WS (by his own words) never thought about me once during A or while he was with OW Steves reply was simple and straightforwars, WS did think about me because he was making effort to hide A from me. Yeah it does make sense but i cant figure out if i am annoyed by this revalation because its so simple and straighforward that i am irritated with myself for wasting so much time on being hurt angry and generally baffled by WS lack of thought or is it just that it doesent sit right with me because its not the point i was trying to make (Why did WS not feel guilt during A and if he is able to block guilt so well then whats my security of him not repeating A). Still pondering that one. Any insight??

Dear BH

Of course he felt guilt! He hid the affair didn't he? Went out of his way to cover his tracks did'nt he? From my experience with my WH, he was so caught up in his A, the "high", the excitment, the "newness" of the whole sordid thing, "the fix" that everything else, every moral code, fiber of their being is pushed aside, they don't even allow themselves to entertain their guilt. Of course that is only my opinion, me being a BS may not be the one to answer this question. Maybe a few of the WS on this site could chime in.

I am so glad to hear that things have taken steps forward, the reference to you WH as FWH made me smile. I am so glad to see the hopefullness in your post. Maybe mine is on it's way!

Some random thoughts, to take or leave:

Bravo! When TWC & I were early post D-Day, it seemed that the A. dominated all of our interactions, conversations & thoughts. It had to be done, but we both hated it. It involves rehashing lots of pain & guilt, and it's no fun, and if you allow it to consume too-large a chunk of your relational time together, then that time can become something to dread. While there's a need to be retrospective, to do your best to understand what happened to the both of you in your pre-A. relationship & communication that abetted the A., and for your H to understand how he shifted his boundaries to condone his A. as he got into it & continued it, there comes a point when you're burning too much mental fuel on looking back, and so you both need to make sure to devote an increasing amount of your time together & mental energy toward the prospective wotk of meeting each others' ENs. So I think it's salutary for you both to take some time off from analyzing the A., and keep up with the prospective business of R.

Cheaters are masters of compartmentalization, some of it chemically-enhanced. I wasn't raised in the jungle; I'd had a sound upbringing, a strong moral compass, and had always held the view that adultery was unambiguously wrong. It's not the case that I felt no guilt. BUT I had discovered this OW, who was suddenly interested & attentive to me & giving me affirmations small & large, and with all of this I experienced the infatuating thrill of being pursued, which I hadn't really felt in two decades, and it was a huge rush, in the truest sense of an addiction. (Research has actually shown that affairs, and infatuations more broadly, act chemically on the brain in the same way as cocaine.) Now, a coke addict isn't always high ... he has moments of lucidity; but he also has moments when he's feeling cravings for a fix, and that fix crowds out all else in his mind. And so it was: I had my lucid moments where I was fully aware of my wife, and how I was deceiving her & dishonoring my promises to her, and at those moments I was wracked with guilt, and feeling that I had to find some way to end the A. soon. But then I'd find a voice-mail from OW on my cellphone, or I'd see her in church, and the cravings would take over again, and I chose to fill the cravings. Thus, I was able to set aside my sense of guilt & my conscience, because it stood between me and the fix I was craving ... not merely the SF, but the conversation, the compliments, the hanging-on-my-every-word attention that I was getting from OW during the time we spent together. So, I wouldn't be too sure that your H felt no guilt. More likely, he was compartmentalizing it away, and not allowing the guilt to stand in his way of getting his fix of OW.

As to your question of how you can have any sense of security that he won't repeat his A with the same or a different OW, it's a huge question for any BS. My wife and I were discussing this very question the other night, and the scary truth is, there is no guarantee, there is no perfect assurance. A junkie who has graduated from rehab CAN go back on drugs, and a recovering alcoholic CAN fall off the wagon and start drinking again. And I know that if I don't mind my boundaries, I am capable of cheating again. It's an area where my wife still needs reassurance from me. However, one thing in our favor is that the addiction has been broken. The cravings aren't there any longer. If I wanted to get into an affair, I'd have to do it "from scratch", as it were. And another thing in our favor is that we are more congnizant of each others' ENs. For instance, my wife does little things from time to time to make me feel as though she's pursuing me. I thus get attention & affirmation from her, and get needs met, in ways that weren't happening much before my A. And I'd like to think I'm similarly more attentive to her needs as well. Another thing in our favor is that she's aware of things I did during my affair to conceal it, for example, how I fooled her about how I was spending my time; and so it's less likely that I could get off-track in such a way that she'd be as easily fooled again. And there's NC between me and my ex-OW. None of this is a guarantee, but it helps gradually to restore some of the trust that I'd squandered.

I think the fight scared both of us out of our stupid state of tag a war. I dont condone the fight but it just once you explode like that you seem to get a grace period before things build up again, I am truly hoping that the way i feel now is permanent and that the build up wont start again. I think ill keep calling WH as WH until he leaves job and NC is in place, thats only fair, then ill refer to him as FWH because then we will be able to start true recovery. Glad to see you agree with Steve and i figure that my irritation at myself for not seeing such a simple equasion.

How are you doing??

Glove Oil and here in your answer i find myself confused again.
I do understand the compartmentalizing, i really get the whole exitement, something new and feeling wanted. What i dont understand is clarly highlighted by this section in your post


WH has repeatedly stated he never had any of those moments of guilt or lucidity, even when I nearly discoverd A one day by looking at his phone (he took it away said it was crashing and managed to delete texts from OW, he laughs at how close i got to discovery not talks about lucid moment however brief when realsation hits of exsistance of wife and kids and consequences of A, I find his repeated statments to the effect that he never thought about me or kids while in A really worrying. I can live with " you flashed through my mind for a sec but i was so fogged i didnt take notice, or i was so far into A that i excused my behavior etc" but i cant take i never once considered you or the kids. I self soothed out of this insecurity by thinking that it wasnt because he didnt love me because he loves his kids and never considered them either, so i did try to analize his actions and try to be understanding and help myself but there is this voice at the back of my head that keeps referring to the fact that he admits that he felt no guilt, never not even for one second.

I think also at this point i need to confess something about myself, I was a constaint cheater before i met WH, before him i had many relationships and not once did i stay faithful so i do understand the POV of WS i really do but however insignifacant the relationship i was involved in when i had my cheating episodes i always felt guilt. Yes admittedly it didnt stop me from carrying on cheating on the next relationship but non the less i felt guilt.

As far as my sense of securty i thing by reading Pilots thread it seems that it has to be a joint responsibility between me and WS. He has come so far in the past few weeks from understanding why he had A to owing actions in A and most significant setting his own personal boundries to avoid future A's. they all go a long long way to achieve security, i have to do some personal healing in order to gain confidence that I cannot control what happens in WS brain, he has a brain all of his own and i cant assume he thinks the same way i do.

I was scared at the beginning of this process because it was my last ditch attempt at saving M, and was scared of it being a false temporary improvement or even fake emprovement from WS in order to shut me up for a couple of weeks but with time i have come to see that he is committing to this and that makes me feel more at ease and patient therefore i am now happy to have days off from working on M and just do things that we both enjoy like christmas shopping for kids, we both get exited at what their face will look like when they open presents, we walk around the shops holding hands and just being soppy in eachothers presence this has always happened, before during and after A so im looking forward to that this week.

Ps also forgot to say that WS was shocked by A as much as i was because he has been brought up with good values and never once did he see himself capable of A. Now he has finally realised he is capable of A (regardless of the excuses he made for himself before owned list) he is finally on a straight road to avoid this happening again. He was in denial that he is capable of A now he has ralised he is and therefore working hard towards secure future.

Well... as I think about it, does it really even matter now that your H says he felt no guilt during his A.? Does it matter that I did feel guilt during mine? Because either way, we both still had As. My intermittent sense of guilt then, such as it was then, wasn't enough to improve my lousy conduct, so I don't think I should get much credit for that guilt. (Remember, I didn't break off my A until my OW got snooped-out by her H.) Is there any BS who'd feel significantly better to hear her WH say "Well, gee, honey, on the bright side, I felt really guilty on the days in-between, when I wasn't sneaking off behind your back to see OW for coffee or a relaxing screw" ? I think perhaps not!

So I think it might be more important to ask yourself, does your H feel guilt now? There's no way he can go back and re-do his feelings or actions of a year ago, to ever make them right or honorable. How he feels & acts today may matter more.

Very valid points GloveOil, i guess i am just trying to undertand and drown out the niggly thoughts in my brain so i can process and file them away. I have had such a rough time i guess i get scared to let myself get happy about something and his recovery right now although is genuine it still strikes me as too good to be true on the bad days. I am really putting in some effort now i really am. when i started MB i was set on sitting on my backside and making WS do ALL the work for a change but as you have seen i didnt manage that for too long (ie saying getting a new job has to be his sole responsibility and i wont help him one bit then calling my friend JJ and arranging for her to pitch her job as a possiblity etc) I found that i wanted to help despite trying to talk myseld into the opposite attitude. Now with you guys and Steves councelling i feel that i can allow myself to help WS work on M and do my part in it, it feels more natural to me and i feel better for it.

Hey everyone, i have been advised that sexymamabear is a good source of help and advise in my situation so im putting a shout out for her to read my thread and tell me help if she can.

If you know of sexymamabear please let her know I am seeking her advise. thanks

BH....change your thread title calling for her. Just hit the "notify" button at the bottom and tell the MODS you want to change it to "Calling SMB.....I could use your advice" or whatever you want it to say......this method works wonders on when you need help ASAP....

not2fun

That was some GREAT stuff GO. Even for ME to read....very good questions and points....


BH,

Have you ever heard of the "Five Stages of Grieving"?.....
Here's the link....

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=34&t=002494

There are five stages of grieving (and yes, these stages apply to anyone who has been through a tramatic experience, not just death....). Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, Acceptance. You will facilitate back and forth between the middle one's till you get to acceptance. You are in this process on many points of the A. Which is GOOD that you are doing this. It is also good that you are asking questions that arise in you until you get the ANSWERS you seek. Sometimes, though, there is no good answer, no "right" answer", no "acceptable" answer, which is sometimes the only answer to ACCEPT.

Truthfully, I understand how it concerns you that he didn't feel any guilt. I also understand how its hard to ACCEPT that he wasn't thinking of you. I struggled with the same thing. The only thing I can tell you what worked for me is that he NOW does think of me and what his actions may or not do to me.....and its taking a LONG time to get there. Heck, we are STILL working on that.

I also see you seem to have "shifted" in your thinking. This is AWESOME!!!!!!....

I am very proud of you missy.......

While I know it sucks about the possibility of losing the job, but it could turn into a blessing.....by that I mean, his not working with OW any more, which has been the BIGGEST obstacle you have been faced with at this point. It feeds into your fears, insecurities, anger, ect. and who could blame you?....Certainly not me....

Anyway, keep up with your counseling, doing each and every thi ng Steve assigns you, and before you know it things will fall into place.

not2fun

ps....I about died at the image I was getting of you trying to "talk Steve around" about that Christmas party........

was that some "wishful" thinking on your part that he would agree with you??.... .....you crack me up....

Not2fun
thanks for the laughs yep I honestly thought i could get Steve to agree to the party but the man is BRUTAL lol, I tryed every excuse under the sun only to be told i would go to show off lol I dont like to think of myself as showing off so Xmas party may well be off the cards ,

Steve is a man of few words but when he says something it hits the target.

the way he explains things reminds me of a joke I read somewhere that says the only reason men and woment dont understand eachother is because women cant accept how simple and uncomplicated mens thinking process is. I overcomplicate Steve simplyfies. It really annoys me but its also very effective


Job wise WS has week off as holiday booked a year ago so investigations into the gate are prostponed until december this means he will get christmas paycheck (wich include large xmas bonus) and gives time for the new job to come along so all is looking better now. Worse case scenario no january paycheck but by then this wont effect childrens xmas so it feels less urgent/tragic.

Attitude wise realised that being a beast wasnt getting me anywhere this way i feel more natural and not going against myself at the end of the day i do love WS so why was i fighting that so hard. Now he is commiting to MB i feel safe and relaxed this attempt at R is not temporary and has good chance of success.

Yep,,,,UNDERSTATEMENT of the year!!!..It is very hard to give this one up....(I STILL struggle with this one...... )


as if you don't have enough to deal with without having to "fight" yourself.....(and that would be your Giver and Taker duking it out....)


indeed!!!!!!


not2fun

Arghhh infuriating day, went to work and got home to WS having a friend over. We had plans for today and now ruined just cause WS couldnt say NO to friend when he phoned saying he wanted to come over, This guy is sweet but a drinker and basically just comes over to chill while i run around making dinner, bathing kids etc. I do like this WS friend but right now we need some space and family time, i have clearly told my friends i am not available this week so put a stop to "Help me phonecalls" it was hard because I am always there for my friends but right now the family unit is my priority.

Had an argument because some guy at work asked for my number, in the spirit of honesty i called WS and told him about it immediately. He wasnt happy i didnt verbally attack this guy for asking for my number. Here is what happened, ill leave you lot to disect the situation.

R is a mexican guy who works in the kitchen, he has a long time partner and has always been easy to talk to in a workplace full of kids and bitchy women. I dont find him at all attractive and i take whatever he says with a pinch of salt, he is aware of A as everyone at work knows from the amount of times i have walked in there red eyed from a sleepless night crying my eyes out over A. The only time that has ever been any phisical contact was when i literally fell flat on my face due to wet floor and he helped me up even then I recoiled from him very quickly.
Every customer that oversteps the mark gets my wedding ring shoved in his face with "thanks but im happily married" comment. And i do get asked out on dates weekly by customers yet I have never even been tempted to go there.
R as i will call him has been making comments about my weight loss for weeks and we discuss his excercise regime and the gym rutine we both do (at separate gyms) he is into cross country running and I told him about a secluded wood that was local and very nice to run in, he asked for my number in the contest taht i would show him these woods so he can go running there for a change (not with me on his own as i dont run there). I told him i didnt feel comfortable giving him my number but i would point out to him where these woods were one day after work. He then did try again to get to me by saying that he has seen my WS in the restaurant and asked if he was rich, i said no why, he said because he couldnt understand what i was doing with someone so unatractive etc. I put him in his place and told him that i find my WS very attractive and dont care how others see him. What else should i have said or done?? I told WS straight away about this conversation, i also told him about the new indian manager who has started at the store who wont leave me the hell alone. I do put him in his place on a regular basis and snap at him tell him to go away etc he sees that as a challenge. I wear a uniform at work, i rarely put make up on at work because i end up running around so much i sweat it off. This behaviour from the opposite sex towards me is also new territory, im not used to men leering. R is silly and has been there for me on days where work was just a mad house or on days i was a wreck, like when i was showing a fellow colleague the picture of OW and he walked in and said "gees i would rather masturbate than go near that thing" now he didnt know whos picture it was and once i explained he was in shock making statements like "If i had you on my arm i would feel so lucky how could your H do that to you". Yes allarm bells went off in my head too but i was so desperate for an independant opinion on this OW at the time R hit my weak spot that i was so happy with his opinion i didnt have the chance to get mad at him etc. WS is aware of all these conversation as I tell him everything. WS also makes comments like (this particular one was yesterdays gem) "you and OW have the same body type you are just marginally thinner than her" when aked if OW has lost or put on weight since i last saw her. Yes I did ask but did he really need to be honest?? After his reply i got into a sulk and just stuffed my face as i feel no matter how many times i go to the gym etc i will always be MARGINALLY better than that COW. So when independant people react so instaintly to her pic i feel instaint gratification as WS not helping me feel better about myself one iota. Yes R is dangerous in that sense as he is complimentary and notices my weight loss and gym effort and is repulsed by OW. can anyone really blame me for not snapping his head off at his comments??

I also get a twinge of "stalker" behavior in R - so your own caution flags could be a lot higher.

You may find him doing his cross-country running on your route...

Your guard needs to go way up.

Bh,

I think you should start further back and tell us about all close friendships with men that you have had whilst married.

KA yes the flags are up as I never thought he would go as far as asking for my number yet he did, i didnt divulge where i live or where i take dogs for a walk, but I will keep an eye on him if he starts appearing in my vicinity. I really didnt think twice about his behaviour because it was just done in such an unexpected way, i see as someone making a move to act more like my indian moronic manager who is just so full on i have come close to slapping him a few times (the idiot has taken to calling me tigress at work in the presence of customers, i mean how demented can you get??), seriousey ewww. R gave me false sense of security becaue he appears to be so loved up with is partner, he wants to marry her and settle down while she isnt in that frame of mind yet, so i tell him to get her flowers and what to say to her to make her feel better etc, I didnt take his interest in my life as anything untoward hence why the red fag doesent go as far as it should. I am aware of how unmet EN's can land you in A's so i feel wiser for that.

SugarCane, I have no problem in divulging my Wayward past on here as unfortunately so far there hasnt been much chance for me to discuss them and I do want to as i do OWN my behaviour and it was not undisclosed out of malice but lack of opportunity to discuss.

History before I met WH

Had many many relationships (remember i was a teen thogh so none of them were sexual), i was never ever faithful in any of my relationships, i would kiss someone behind my boyfriends back on a regular basis no matter how much or little i liked that boyfriend at the time. I thought it was justifiction for when they eventually dumped me. Yes crappy behaviour and way of thinking but i was a teen at that time and the kiss chase exitement was all the rage.

When I met WS I was hospitalised as explained above, all the other patients went home at the weekend but i didnt as of mothers behaiour state in this thread, it was lonley so my room mate (call her TT) suggested i have a penpal and suggester her ex boyfriend (now my H) as a possibility, she had dated him a year previousely and they had remained friends, I wrote to him and we became good friends, we met a few months later and i instaintly liked him he didnt feel the same way as he was still hooked on TT, he knew i liked him but as he didnt make a move we became really good friends and he would call me to talk about TT and i would tell him about my latest fling, this carried on for a year and I had genuinly given up on a Relationship with him and settled into friendship. One day we both went to a leaving hospital party at TT house, there were alot of young men making moves that night (all of whom were H friends) I was in a relationship with someone and trying to behave so spent the evening talking to H thinking he was safe as we were just friends. The next morning i get a call from TT telling me H has called her asking what where his chances of a Relationship with me as he now realised he liked me alot, I was shocked but realised i had still liked him all along so ended relationsip i was in and the rest is history. However over the years i have kept in contact with that particular boyfriend that i dumped for H (lets call him MM) he was nasty to me when we were together but the minute i left him he began intense chase (hes not used to getting dumped and wanted to reclaim what he thought belongs to him), for the first 6 years of our relationship i kept in contact with MM, he would make me feel wanted when i gained 50lb, he was the only link i had to who i was before the kids etc, and he constaintly found me when i tryed to NC (i moved house but as he was a policeman he managed to find me). He did turn up at my house several times and i tryed to have WH present when MM turned up but they truly dispised eachother, When i was feeling weak and agree to MM coming over i did try to have someone in the house with me so nothing would happen however i was incredibly immature and played MM and WS against eachother to get maximum attention, it was a nasty thing to do but i was feeling so insecure, thats why after DS happened and all the hospital dramas i found that i was growing up fast, played MM at his own game and got rid of him for good, I stalked him for a change and found out he was married etc (for 6 years he maintained he had not gotten into any other relationship since me because i was all he wanted). I did kiss MM while married to WS, i did seriously consider sleeping with MM while married, but i didnt, i didnt find him attractive i didnt want him i just wanted the way he made me feel (special).

Two more men to go bare with me please

Another wayward incident happened with a coworker (refer to as DD) me and H had been dating 6 months I was so scared of the feelings i was having for him, that together with my usual way of life (cheating and more cheating) led to me getting involved with DD, again please remember i was just 18 at the time. DD was a manager at 21 and so wayward i found him attractive yet not in a long term type of thing, we sneaked around the office and i slept over at his house one night, we did have sexual contact but i did not sleep with him, we were just about to when H flashed through my mind and i simply ran a mile, I wanted H and i wanted to be with him and i was in love with him and was willing to take the risk of having my hear broken so from that day I behaved and never cheated like that again (yes i did kiss MM but that was out of familiarity rather than thrill and by kissing MM i mean peck on the lips nothing ever went futher than that although i did consider it).

Last man was WS best friend, NOTHING ever happened from my side he was married and he came onto me several times, i told WS every time and WS forgave him every time. I dont like him and think of him as an [censored] for doing that to my H but my H loved him too much to care about what he was trying to do so i gave up being angry at this firend and let them just get on with it, he has backed off because i keep telling WS when he oversteps the mark (most vile act was him saying why dont we go upstairs and do something something at a new years eve party we had a few years back that WS ended up missing due to drinking too much and falling asleep before midnight at wich point this vile friend approached me, my answer by the way was "f,,,,,Off").

so here it is all my past exposed to you guys and think of me what you will i have always said im no angel, however i am a mum and a wife and if you are still interested in helping me become a better person im here willing to help myself. I have told WS about everything as it happend and even now will talk to him about any of the above without hesitation. I have grown up since then otherwise i would be in bed with R right now rather than sit here hurting like hell and trying to pick up the pieces of my M.

I have only ever had sex with my H no one else before during or after meeting him and I would swear to that on anything.

BS: I think it's safe to say here that you have been anything but Brutally Honest in all of this. Kissing someone else and "seriously considering" sleeping with them while married constitutes an A. How do you expect people to help you if you aren't open and honest about your story?

I expect the anger writer and not going to tell you how you should feel but I am still adamant that I did not HIDE nor did I LIE about anything on this thread, I have been a member for what? 4 weeks if that and im supposed to trust and talk about all of that? at the FIRST opportunity that I had to tell you I DID.

You can say I had A with MM but the reality was that in 5 years I saw him a total of maybe 4 times and spoke to him maybe 3 times a year if that, so in prospective I never considered it A until MB.

I expect the anger writer and not going to tell you how you should feel but I am still adamant that I did not HIDE nor did I LIE about anything on this thread, I have been a member for what? 4 weeks if that and im supposed to trust and talk about all of that? at the FIRST opportunity that I had to tell you I DID.

You can say I had A with MM but the reality was that in 5 years I saw him a total of maybe 4 times and spoke to him maybe 3 times a year if that, so in prospective I never considered it A until MB.

Bh, you need to consider with honesty and humility how these facts would have affected our advice about your marriage.

You found the time to talk about your H's 4 internet EAs. Why was it so hard to find the time to talk about your own?

I'm not angry. I just don't think people on here can really help you if you aren't honest. In the past 4 weeks, you've been comfortable enough with the people on this site to share every aspect of your H's A, but not your own? That doesn't make much sense.

It doesn't really matter how often you saw MM or how many instances there were. Kissing someone else while you're married and thinking about sleeping with them is in the very least an EA. Obviously, this is pertinent information if you expect people here to help you.

Ill go back and reread my thread and see if you are right if i genuinley had a chance and i missed it. Someone emailed me from this site about something just a few days ago and i immediately told them about my past behaviour as i had chance to do so, this is what leads me to beleive i havent had a chance to disclose above infromation, I could have put it in my initial statement at the beginning of this thread but i did not consider (and a big part of me still doesent consider) contact with MM as an A. as far as DD goes yes i CHEATED on WS but it was early on in the relationship and i was so young and stupid ( do you remember how you were at 18?) and saw the fact that i ran away from him the night i nearly slept with him as validation of my good intentions in the end so didnt see it as severe as WS having sex with OW 10 years into marriage and then treating me like s... t afterwards, i never treated him like that. There is so much i could say about what WS put me through but out of avoiding a mud slinging match i will refrain. Im not here to make him look bad im here to get the full picture accross and get help.

The marriage needs to be looked at as a whole, Bh. It now seems that you both had an unclear view of fidelity for years, with his 4 internet affairs and this one lasting 5 years from you. You and H's understandings of marriage seem to have led you both to disregard your marriage when it suited you. Your long-term affair, and his, were factors that made it favourable for him to have a PA one day. I am astonished you never saw the relevance of BOTH your previous affairs before.

You spent a long time writing posts about your upbringing and your son's illness, and showing how the affair was a last straw after all the events. However, you never found a moment to reveal the additional detail of your affair.

Simple fact is that I have learned and dealt with my behaviour, I got myself councelling and did alot of soulsearching so didnt thin that getting MB help for me was and instant priority while WS is still displaying Wayward behaviour making helping him an instant priority. I have PAID MY DUES for what i did way before his A.

BH
in response to guy at work, keep your guard up, way way up, build a big wall. He is a predetor, if he had any morals at all and cared about this partner you would not even get a second look. You are in a position to be preyed upon. Ripe for your own A, EA at the least. He knows this. He is meeting all of your needs. Even enemys agree with each other when there is a common goal, and you are that goal. Be careful. As far as everything you have shared up to this point. Keep sharing, I don't feel you have been dishonest, just tunnel visioned. When we are hurt and recoiling we strike out with the obvious. Since those discretions were in your past, you might not have realized their importance. Now that you have been made aware of the different opinions here, take them into consideration. As I said, my opinion is different, take it for what it is worth. Keep dialogue open with WS that is why communication is so hard. It cannot be controlled, it's messy emotions run high and low but keep going. Let him express his views and emotions and you keep reiterating that he has nothing to worry about and that you can see where this conversation could lead down the wrong path, it is that easy. That is why people get cought before they even know what has happened. That is why bounderies and affair proofing is so important. Being nice is one thing, nieve another. You have been through to much to be nieve. This is how you fall down the rabbit hole. Jump over baby, not in

What is your opinion different from, bb? Where do you differ on what has been said so far?

Bh, a fellow who knows you're married, but who makes disparaging comments about your H's appearance and who asks you for your phone number, is patently toxic to your marriage. Did you happen to break a spare picture-frame at HIS feet? You should've shut kitchen-guy down unequivocally, and hard, by (1) making clear that his comments are most unwelcome, and (2) informing management that they've hired a staffer who makes passes at the married female staff. I gather you did neither. Why not? Because you enjoyed, however slightly, his attention & empathy?

Don't go there, ma'am. Don't go where I went.

You want H to take your marriage seriously. So you both need to take it equally seriously, and stop the one-upmanship, or else we're all just wasting our time. Please review Harley's Rule of Protection, both of you.

In the spirit of being honest the situation just flipping escalated as i was in mid discussion with WS reassuring R seems to be harmless my phone beeps and guess what i get a text from R!! WTF where did he get my number??? I suspect that he got it from the staff book as its left open for everyone and its used to call staff for overtime. Me feeling stupid, point proven and really WTF? WS says i got to deal with it. yep he is right so going to think careflly about my next step. Text was innocent asking if i managed to go to the gym tomight but regardless, only 5 hours ago i told him i didnt want to give him my number.
Plan to talk to managment about it tomorrow and ignore text from R. I dont want to have confrontation with someone that weird.

Bh,

Most importantly, does Steve know this information??? If not, I suggest you tell him straightaway.....this is VITAL information that he needs to help you H to have a successful M. It will serve you no good not to tell him at this point. Yes, you will probably have to go through the same excercises H is going through, but it will HELP you to be the wife you want to be and that your M needs......

That being said, you need to shut this man down NOW. For whatever reason, us BS have this aura about us when we have been betrayed. We become easy prey. Our esteems are shot, we doubt everything we've known, and have had our trust instinct destroyed. As our EN's are not being met by our WS's, we get some met by outside sources, we know we don't want to go there BUT if we aren't careful, it is EXACTLY where we end up......happens all the time.......

So, it is up to YOU to shore up YOUR boundaries, both personally and marriage wise. What kind of marriage do you want?

What is it you consider a SAFE marriage?

Ask yourself the HARD questions, put down a plan of action to follow, and then put into practice......

not2fun

ps....to me it is irrelavent at this point whether you were open with the boards, BUT it is totally relevant that Steve gets this information ASAP.......

Dear Sugarcane: I don't feel she has been dishonest, like I said on purpose or otherwise. From reading her thread, I truly feel she was pooring out all of her emotions, venting what was and had happened to her, between her and her husband, the most recent past. Now, that time and healing is happening, more of thier personal past is coming out that of course probably at the very least is effecting them both emotionally.

That is what I meant.

Dear BH:

Gloveoil is right, right, right, shut this man down, let your WH know exactly what steps you are taking and do not, do not, do not feel guilty about R's feelings. he absolutly knows what he is doing. and as far as this manager, go over his head to corporate and get his A** fired!

Do you think it is possible that H is feeling like you are doing this NOW with the R??

Can you see WHY he would feel this way??



Yes it was a nasty thing to do, but can you see why WE here see history repeating itself somewhat???

Think long and hard BH.......this is not a "beating" you up session, this is a look at H's view on this.....

not2fun


[/quote]

I don t feel that anyone is Beating me in any way i do feel that people are listening to both of us and no im not expecting anyone to say well done BH you had A but they are insignificant because your H had one too. Its silly two wrongs dont make a right othriserwise i would be in bed with someone at risk of being linched on here im exposing myslef by confessing to this after D-Day i seriousely considered sleeping with a male escort the aim being getting back at WS for a and suggesting i go sleep with someone too to make him feel better about his betrayal, I wanted a male escort because i didnt want anyone that anything a part from sex could happen with and i wanted reassurance that my skills in the bedroom werent the reason WS cheated so paying someone to assess me so to peack made sense in my stupid brain, now how messed up is that?? would i tell you this intimate detail if im on here to look good or if im covering up who i am?? I didnt go through with it simply because i dont want to. I dont need to pay someone to tell me if i am any good, its a confidence i got to get to on my own otherwise it will never be a valid one.
Betty I am grateful that you are giving me the benefit of the doubt. I dont know how many masty things i can tell you guys about myself in order to prove im here to get help fully disclosing everything you need me to disclose not sitting here wanting just sympathy.

as far as R I am gutted really gutted he is such a weirdo, he was someone i could talk to at work about grown up things like travelling, gym and politics, i am forever surrownded by teenagers however i will resume taking my brake in my car or going home during my brake ( i live 2 mins drive from work) so to avoid him. I will try the direct approach with him, ie R im married and yes we have issues as u know but i have no intention of leaving, cheating, dishonoring H please delete my number, if you use it again i ill have no choice but to involve managment as you took my number out of private employee book. I can t be a Beast and get him sacked without warning, I have been too soft in my approach but the text has fraked me out, I dont understand where i said no means yes to him.

No, it wasn't innocent.

BH
I am soon realizing in the WW brain, no always mean yes, wrong is always right, up is always down and night is always day!

Maybe NC letter to R, might go along way to show WS you are not encouraging this behavior at all.

ok will look into NC letter but feeling stupid because i dont want him to think im up myself and think everyone wants me etc, he has never said bluntly "i want you" but will discuss with WS and see if that will work for him. Before anyone starts telling me to leave my job as said before I want to be a paramedic so please please pray that i get into the paramedic program in December.

BH
What you have described does not constitute any kind of A, so leaving your job should not be necessary. Now, if he doesn't stop and the idiot manager doesn't stop, and you go above thier heads and nothing is done, then you might want to consider leaving your job. However, hopefully by then your dream job will have come in to fruition.

Good luck!!!!!

p.s. if all else fails have WH beat their A** lol

Bh,

I apologise for posting about your situation on another thread. I did not think of how inappropriate and hurtful this would be before I did this. I will immediately delete my posts from that thread.

However, what did you mean by this?

I did get on to you about the party. Was that hurtful? And when did I subtly encourage you to leave the site?

For some reason I am not being allowed to delete. I will keep trying.

"the direct approach with him, ie R im married and yes we have issues as u know but i have no intention of leaving, cheating, dishonoring H"

Stop right there. This is encouragement to a predator. Telling OM that you have problems in your marriage.

Revealing weakness' only give OM the angle he seeks to work on you to wear you down.

"What you have described does not constitute any kind of A, so leaving your job should not be necessary. Now, if he doesn't stop and the idiot manager doesn't stop, and you go above thier heads and nothing is done, then you might want to consider leaving your job."

No, you want to then get a lawyer and sue for harrassment at work.

Bh, if you would just clarify what you said about my hurtful posts, and subtly encouraging you to leave the site, I will apologise and leave your and your H's threads alone. I don't think you should be getting well-meaning but non-professional advice that conflicts or competes with Steve's. I will stop contributing to that problem.

the road:

yessss you are right! lawyer time!

brtualyhonest28,
you sound a lot like me ( i admit I only read your first post, but it really struck a chord with me and I wanted to reply right away).

I know what you mean about the "not seeming sorry". My husband never really said he was sorry, and he certainly never seemed too upset about it either. That makes it worse, as if he is here with me, why? If I understood that, maybe I could feel better. Is that what it is like for you too?

My husband is in the army, and he can't just switch jobs to be away from her- if I go to his boss at work, it could be pretty serious. So I'm stuck here.

I hope that you have found some peace of mind, and I plan to read the rest of your posts, as I have a feeling I might learn a lot from them.

Thank you so much for sharing.

SC this was the post that hurt, i did try not to take it the wrong way but it stayed with me for days. I am here to get advise from VARIED people i really am and I do like you and considered you as a fair person and took your adivse on but I couldnt help but feel that the above post was a shove off and passive agressive one at that. I do not want you to stop posting but I do want you to please give me a chance, i am learning as i go and i have only been her 4 weeks. I will make mistakes and accept the chriticism is well deserved at times. I do agree with the xmas party, i do agree with MB principals and I do agree that not everyone thinks the same. thats why i overpost to try and explain things but this ends up looking like justifying my horrid actions. So here i am saying sorry to you if i have hurt your feelings and letting you know that i see you as a valued member of this comunity.
I am 28 i have been a wife and mother for all my adult life, I have rebelled, been immature and stupid at times but i am not a lost cause. I refuse to be a lost cause because of something that happened 4 years ago. I did deal with it and this R thing is hurting me because I am still so insecure that I refuse to beleive anyone would find me attractive, so Rs advances arent taken seriousely and now i will go there talking about how he should back off when im not even convnced he is trying anything on despite the overwhelming evidence, what i really want to do is to just ignore him at work and by text i just want to pretend this never happened but accept i have to deal with it. Even when customers ask me out i think they are after the free food. If i walk down the street an i get leered at i check that i dont have a stain on my shirt, then to go from being dumped for a car (one of the many things happening at time of MM) because WS though that me and kids were holding him back from getting his dream car, he thought if he moved in with his parents he would be able to work longer hours and not provide for family save all his money and buy this car. I literally got a letter saying he wanted the car more than me and the kids, MM was offering to take me on and the kids cant anyone understand why this was a tempting option for a young mum? havin MM involved helped wake WS up but it came at a price that i have paid for already. I feel that i am 28 wasted my life being with someone incapable of loving anyone but himself and have no way out. Whos going to want a single mum of 4 with my demented history?? But there is also the side that i love this man and can see so much good in him especially towards others im just waiting my turn till he decides that it is now ok to show me that goodness. I want my family, i want all the future xmases and all the future plans we made together (travelling, seeing the world etc) i put up with giving up so much to raise a family that its those future plans that keep me going. Can you be part of my future and not give up on me SC?

The road, R knows about WS A and other issues as everyone at work knows about A. Especially when I had stroke after A never mind all the blood shot eyes look that i had on several shifts.

"The road, R knows about WS A and other issues as everyone at work knows about A. Especially when I had stroke after A never mind all the blood shot eyes look that i had on several shifts."

More fog babble

The OM knowing and you telling the OM that you are having problems now are not the same. A predator looks for weakness in his prey. Your confirming what he knows is sending the message that you are ripe to be picked.

Whether you are or not is not important. What is important is that you are giving off such signals.

There is no reason for you to justify anything to the OM.

No is no.

I'm really sorry that I made you feel hurt and that this post stayed with you for days.

I posted that when the physical incident had just broken out between you and H. You were still at the point where you wanted him to leave. You seemed very shocked at what at happened, and I was worried about the atmosphere at home with little children to consider. Some of the posts you were getting seemed to upset you. I thought that, since you had a phone call booked (for the next day, I think it was), you should hold off getting advice from amateurs for just half a day more, and get Steve's expertise. It was just so lucky that you were booked to speak to him so soon.

I'm sorry that my words implied that I would like to see you leave the site. I was not suggesting that at all, passive-aggressively or otherwise. I wanted you to stick with the professional advice that Steve was offering, that I thought was better for you than our differing advice that might be hard for you to choose between. I know that, in your situation, I would find it hard to know whose advice was best, with everybody speaking from their experience, all of it relevant, but some of it conflicting. Most of Dr Harley's writings do not directly address an issue such as yours the other day, when a sudden flare-up of violence took place after a long period of unhappiness. There was no clear, published Harley advice for us to go to (or at least, no so far as I have found), so we were speaking from our own viewpoints, not the MB standpoint. However, you had a direct line to Steve and I thought that was a blessing at that crucial moment.

I still don't know what you mean by "repeated hurtful remarks" but I don't need you to search for them. It must be that my words do not properly convey my intentions, which are not to hurt someone who is in your situation. Since I am not good at getting my meaning across to you I won't risk hurting your feelings any more. It is not a case of giving up on you, but the recognition that I have not been helping. I don't think I can change my style enough to be of use.

bh,

SC will be a huge loss to your thread if she leaves. I have not seen anything remotely hurtful in a single thing she has said to you, and I sincerely hope that she can reconsider her decision because she is offering you sound counsel, and is one of the best people here in offering clear and explicit MB advice.

As a fellow brit, I have followed your thread but have been reluctant to post, even after ST recommended that I may be able to help you. The reason for my reluctance is your aggressive and angry style of writing, which appears to be indicative of your overall personality.

I don't mean to criticise you by saying that, I know some people do have anger issues, but I personally find it very difficult to deal with such people as I can sometimes be overly sensitive, and as such I didn't think would be the right person to offer you help and advice. We're just very, very different, and I didn't think I could offer anything constructive from my perspective of recovering from an A given the very different dynamics in our recoveries.

As I said, it's not a criticism of you, merely an acknowledgement of my own limitations.

However, upon reading of the recent developments, I had a thought that I wanted to put to you.

Dr H says that R is almost impossible in a relationship where addictions are present. The addiction must be addressed before true R can begin.

It appears to me from reading your story that there has been A LOT of drama in your life. A crisis situation produces a physical response in us; adrenaline and cortisol are released amongst other hormones. Many studies suggest that this adrenaline rush can be addictive. You'll have heard of adrenaline junkies?

Is it possible that you are somehow addicted to having drama in your life?

This is a genuine question asked in the spirit of trying to help. It's just that in your story, it seems that since childhood, you have had drama after drama and crisis after crisis, and when something dreadful isn't happening, you appear to create or get involved in another drama or crisis.

I wonder if Dr H would consider this to be some type of addiction that would hinder recovery?

Feel free to ignore this post if you think I'm totally off base, but it may be something you can sit quietly and ponder.

Good luck

I really need time off from MB, so please dont think that i am ignoring you, however as an insecure person I feel that the balance of negative vs positive comments on here has become overwhelming for me. I am not saying MBers are wrong or unfair, im just saying that right now I dont feel very positive about who I seem to be and what is going on on here. I need to get my strength back and build up a bit of a thicker skin for me to be able to hear all that information about myself and be proactive with it. I am feeling very down, like I lost I friend but I really cant carry on hearing about all the bad traits that I have and do any actual personal healing as no matter how far i have come and how much I want to improve I cant find a way forward because I feel like who I am is the problem that everything can be related back to. WS will get a pat on the back for trying as he is trying, I get a character assassination (however deserved I just wish people can be constructive, as in tell their negarive view but balance it by also telling the positive one that to me is constructive chriticism). I am my biggest chritic and enemy and I so wish you could have read inbetween the anger and aggression and see that I insecure and super chritical of myself. I do have peace in the knowledge that my friends who know me and see me and talk to me on a regular basis are all aware of my past behaviour and none of them belame me or chriticise me for my actions as they know the full story with regards to WS selfish self obsessed and cowardly behaviour at time of MM. They also know and have seen all the disasters that have stricken my family uninvited MIL especially as she has seen all the unexpected messes that have happened as I confide in her alot. I am getting drained defending myself. I have one last thing I am willing to share and that is I am happy to email anyone interested a picture of my family so you can see for yourself if we are all what you have come to picture in your mind (good or bad).

To Clay and BlindsBetty I am sorry I wont be able to participate in your posts for a while, I will be thinking of you both as I really care about what you are going through. Keep posting and keep getting advice on here please as you then have the best chance to recover. xx

I reach that point periodically. It's the point at which I realize yeah, there is SO MUCH WRONG that it's overwhelming; I can't work on everything at once. And I also often feel as if people take an entirely wrong read on my relationship, so I need to take some time to process the advice, figure out what's relevant and what I should ignore.

Sturgeon's Law applies here as in just about everywhere else in life: "Nothing is always absolutely so," and "90% of everything is crud".

I'll chuck my advice into the bit-bucket before wishing you a good time off.

Your on-again, off-again relationship with another man means you've mutually betrayed one another in varying degrees. That often makes recovery harder, but not impossible. It just means you're both following similar plans toward marital recovery. Go knuckle down for a little while working on your marriage rather than talking about it on this board. See you when you get back.

Bh, this is you running and hiding.......when things get tough, the common thing to do is either fight or fly....you are CHOOSING to flee....


This is total crap BH.....you may be insecure, but you are using that as an excuse to hide your faults......(which EVERYONE has....)


You shouldn't feel positive about yourself at the moment. There is nothing positive about adultery......we are not always here to coddle you. If you want to save your marriage, and be successful at it, it takes GROWTH...from both partners....and you know what? If you keep waiting until you "feel" something in order to change, then it won't happen..



You can do anything you put your mind to....you just don't WANT to.....very different



this is you reverting back into a "victim" status. Nobody said the whole marriage is your fault. Nobody said WH having an A was okay, or that you two were now even, or that he was entitled because of your past actions. That chit don't fly around here. No matter what you had done, it does not EXCUSE his behavior one bit.......




We have seen that, and we have also congradulated you when you have done well HOWEVER....it does not mean we are going to cheer you on when you have chosen or thinking on choosing poorly......would you not tell your son to get away from the hot stove when he puts his hand near the burner???......we tell you the hard things BECAUSE we care. We want you to succeed, we want your marriage to succeed......


This is nothing more than RATIONALIZATION of your affair. Plain and simple. It is the same crap we all heard from our spouse's when they were wayward.......

Nothing your H did DESERVES the betrayal. Just as nothing you did DESERVED his betrayal.......





You cannot defend the undefendable......that is why you are drained......OWN up to what you did, and how horrible it was and then learn and GROW from it.......We are seeing a repeated pattern in YOUR behavior. That behavior will destroy you, your family, and your children.

Look, I have no doubt you are a beautiful woman. I have no doubt you are a great friend. I have no doubt you are a good mum.

BUT if you do not look at where you can CHANGE, where you are vunerable, where you need help, then how do you expect that change to happen??....because unfortunately, there is no magic pill for that....

I wish you well my friend.......I am very sadden to hear you won't be around to get the support and help you needed...

not2fun

bh,

I hope you're still lurking, even if you are having a break from posting. I'm sorry that you believe you have received more negative responses than positive in recent days.

Sometimes the posts which we first see as negative and/or unfair are the best at getting to the real issues. We often find that the posts which immediately get our backs up and cause us indignation are the ones that we need to read again because there is some grain of truth in them that may be of great help to us.

We all come here initially for marital recovery. In the end though, we only have real control over our own personal recoveries. It's hard to accept that we cannot control what our spouses think and do when many of us have lived with the illusion that our marriages were entirely in our control.

A valuable lesson I have learned here is that the way to influence my M is to be the best me I can be. I avoid LB'ers because I do not particularly like myself when I am angry, or sulking, or disrespectful. I meet the EN's of my FWH because I like making him happy and seeing him happy. I enjoy being a good wife and mother.

I'm so much happier in myself when I am the best me I can be and the great thing is that when I'm doing these things, it grows the love that my FWH feels for me and he then wants to meet my EN's and avoid LB'ing me. We then want to spend more time together (UA) and we want to POJA all our decisions because we're each enthusiastic about making each other happy. That's marriage building; it starts with one spouse making an effort be the best person they can be.

When I posted, I wanted to encourage you to look at YOU because your story tells us that you have issues that you can work on.

Believe me, I had issues too. If sulking were an Olympic sport, I could have been a gold medal contender. It was a huge LB'er for my FWH, and I knew it but wasn't motivated to change because I too had my fair share of resentments about his LB'ers.

After D-Day, I knew I had to address this as part of becoming the best me.

I can tell you that I have not had a single sulking incident since, and I am much much happier. My sulking wasn't making me happy and I cannot understand now why I let it get so out of hand.

Anyway, I'll stop rambling. I hope you read this and understand that all those posts you saw as being negative were ony trying to get you to look in the mirror and were only asking you to look at you to see what it is you can change.

They weren't attacks, and I hope you can come back and see that.

BH:

I've been posting here for about a year and have received a lot of advice, all of it well-intentioned and much of it sound.

However...

Your head can start to spin after a bit because it's nearly impossible for those of us giving you advice to separate our own issues from coloring the advice we give you. That's not a bad thing in and of itself but there comes a point when you need to step back and realize that putting stock in the advice you get on the forum can really lead you astray if you're not careful.

I've spoken with Steve only twice. Both times, his message to me was very clear and consistent. And much of it is in direct contradiction with the advice I continually get thrown at me on this forum.

Dear BH

I like what ourhouse had to say, we all are colored by what we are going through. vulnerable, hurt, angry, our world has been turned upside down. Everything we thought was true and real is now being questioned. Everything we held as precious and protected now becomes tainted and harmed. Harmed by an unseen aggressor, our most trusted love, now is seen as a traitor.

So, while our mind and heart tries to wrap itself around these facts, we struggle. We struggle to see ourselves and our lives for what they really are. So it is only reasonable to suggest that we would struggle to see someone elses pain. to see the reality of the situation and to respond in a totally objective manner.

I hope when the dust settles a bit on your thread, you will see that even though we all differe in our approach, most of us trully want the same thing. a safe place to bare our hearts adn souls, a safe place to vent our fears and frustrations. a place of healing, understanding to a path of recovery.

Dear BH........don't give up on us. We will not give up on you.

BH,

I'm curious who suggested to you that you call me out?

Sexymamabear I dont know the MB username for the person that suggested you as a useful sorce of advice as this was done by email. She advised that you would be able to help and that i should put a call out for you and i did do hope
you can help when u get the chance.

BB I will be back on here when things settle as right now the issues keep mounting up, WS got letter from the new job saying no vacancy at the moment for people in his area. I am gutted. R situation dealt with appropriately and no further problems. WS has had a week at home on holiday from work and everything that can go wrong has gone wrong so feeling low. I will be back soon just cant talk about anything on here as i know i will get slammed and rightly so, but need the time to compose myself and prepare for the backlash

BH, I can guess who the email was from. But I won't even indulge the troll/stalker by naming him here.

I've read bits and pieces of your thread. I'm not sure I can add anything further. You've gotten great advice. I highly respect Sugarcane, Sere, Not2Fun, PM, KA, and Melody; and would have nothing better to offer than what they've already given. Your insistance to attend this party tells me you are more concerned about seeing OW pay than you are about saving your marriage. That's too bad. In the end, you'll do yourself more harm than OW.

Hey SMB Im sorry i must be missing something, i dont know if the person was a man or woman but they were nothing but complementary of you, I didnt realise there was a problem sorry.

Here is the copy of the email for your reference

"Hey,

I have read your thread on MB and I am so sorry for what you're going through. You have got some nice advice as well as some bad one. I think one poster can really help you out. Her screen name is sexymamabear. Make a new post ask her to read your and your H's threads and see what insight she might have for you. I promise that she will be tremendous help to you. Furthermore, she has 5 kids and was a betrayed spouse who's now "fully recovered," if there is such a thing. This could be one of the best step you can take to recover your marriage. Yes, she is that good."

Hope that helps and again sorry for getting you involved had no idea it was aproblem.

As far as the xmas party that issue has been discussed with steve during coaching and has been put to rest.

BH, you really need to learn to accept what people say to you without first worrying if you are being criticized. First, no one has really criticized you yet. They have made observations that you COULD have used to look more honestly at yourself to find solutions. But no one has said you are a bad person, that you are not worthy of happiness.

That is YOU talking.

Second, if you can't get past your own self-hate to stop and really think about what the people are saying, how are you ever going to achieve happiness? There's a really good book I read recently that might help you. It's called Healing the Shame That Binds You, by Bradford. I think it's really going to hit home with you. PLEASE go to your library or book store and get it asap.

Third, if you back off every time you hear stuff you don't like, here, what are you going to do in your real life? What are you teaching your kids? Believe me, this REALLY manifests itself in your kids, watching you do it. My D19 is amazing, but because of how she saw her parents deal with conflict, she has a meltdown at least once a month, on things that shouldn't even matter. This is now PART of her. It won't go away. And I caused it, by not being stronger myself while I raised her. Your kids NEED you to stay here and do the hard work. Will you cry? Yes. Will you feel worthless? Probably. But if you stick with us, and do some honest soul searching, and the hard work to fix your problems, your kids will benefit.

btw, what was said about staying off here and listening to the Harleys was because they ARE professionals, they HAVE heard your real story, not just what you write, and if their advice differs from us, you're better off listening to them. That in no way has any negative connotation on you, does it? It's things like this instance that we're asking you to look at, to stop being so defensive. It's doing you no good.

In a quiet place, you might want to spend some time reading "The Four Agreements" and also "The Art of War" thread.

It's tough to not feel pummeled in your situation.

Since you've been through "labor" a few times, perhaps this word-picture will help you understand what has to happen.

My first and only full term pregnancy wrapped up with two days of constant contractions. The second day, they sent me home, because I was "no where close to delivering". They gave me a strong sleeping pill, which got me all of two hours of sleep before contractions amped up to 2 minutes apart and strong. I went back to the hospital where they were about to send me home again when my water broke, right there on the table. Guess that ended that idea.

How hard was it to get my head back into my Lamaze training after 60 hours with two hours of sleep? Pretty doggone tough. And I'm guessing you feel like that right now - but babies don't wait for us to recover our strength. And neither do trials like the one you're going through now.

Mental toughness doesn't come during easy times. It comes during times of extremity like you're going through now. So, just like Lamaze, find your focal point - what is your desired outcome? and then breathe through everything else, for as long as it takes. Setting a deadline for the "end of the pain" will kill you and your marriage.

This is how I bought myself some time with my marriage.

I knew and faced the fact that my husband had weaknesses - some of them intolerable weaknesses. And there was a history, some of it really bad. But I forced myself to remember the good times and acknowledge that my husband had value. I didn't want to at my most angry times. I actually filled out the paperwork for a divorce. I didn't have the money to file. But I served him with the notice to divorcing parents our state required for parents before they could complete the divorce process.

I then started looking at the men around me. My father-in-law - a good man, but flawed. My brother-in-law - good but flawed. My oldest brother - good but flawed. My 2nd brother - flawed flawed flawed. My younger brother - good but flawed.

And then I thought through the process - if every man I know has weaknesses and the only reason I would see those weaknesses is because I've lived around them long enough to take off the rosey glasses and see EVERYTHING there - not just the frosting, then it would stand to reason that ANY man I met and married could have flaws.

I determined that since alternative men had unknown flaws and some of those flaws were way beyond tolerance, then I had just as good of odds sticking it out with the man I already knew his weaknesses.

Better the devil you know?

Perhaps.

Because Kasey was willing to work on himself, I gave him some time. Not unlimited time, and I never gave him a deadline. That way, I didn't have to prolong my own agony if I ran out of patience and I still had a month to go on my promise.

Starfish used to post here a lot - I loved a quote she had in her signature line for a while:

I can get divorced anytime. But I only have now to be married.

The quote said mountains to me - that I didn't want to exit a marriage prematurely.

You might be tired, worn out and sick of feeling hurt, ashamed, embarrassed and abandoned. But you don't want to add to that "Regret" for bailing on a guy trying to become Mr. Wonderful before the miracle... because if he truly succeeds, you will definitely regret divorcing him someday.

one more thought...

How much self-care are you doing? Are you exercising? Eating right? Drinking plenty of water? eliminating sugar and caffeine out of your diet? Reading good stuff - not relationship stuff, but stuff the gives you hope and builds your faith? Listening to good music - the kind that makes you think about being a better person?

When someone is depressed, the hardest thing for them to do is get off the couch and get moving. They tend to do things that feed the depression because that's all they have energy to do.

No matter what the outcome of your marriage is, right now you are married. You are a mother. You are a human being. And you need to find your mojo - your place of strength.

Let that be your focus for a while. I promise - absolutely can guarantee that if you will do this, life will improve much faster than the way things have been going.

Not to t/j, but KaylaAndy, your write some really great things...really great!


BH, I know you are going through a storm of emotions and fears and tentativeness, and anger. It's part of the horrible affair package. Even with negative posts, I see hope for the two of you. I believe you both have it in your to make a new marriage. It can happen. DH and I did it.

lurioosi im gald someone can see hope for us but we are officially over as of today,things are that bad that even MIL is supporting me because she has said that she has seen that i have tryed everything to make M work and she has so much respect for me and is ashamed of her son and blames herself for not bringing him up better. He has decided to quit on Harley and MB because he confirms that in 6 weeks on here he has made no progress, what am i supposed to say to that? yeah oh lets try something else?? no i havent got the energy or willpower anymore. He used this site to further his point and now is my fault for not being more receptive like other MB women rahter than his faul for just not caring enough. I am sad and disappointed and cant look at my kids for the overwhealming guilt of "could i have done better" he is playful and content no guilt at all.

HI BH28,

I'm sorry about today. I quite understand that uyou haven't got the energy or willpower anymore - although I detect that you are not quite so certain whether you have or not.

Do you think he really means it? Has he packed his bags? Is he discussing maintenance?

I remember being in a postition where neither of us was sure we wanted to carry on and we were both egging the other one on to end the relationship, because netiher of us really wanted to do it.

Is this the break you really need, to reain that cnfidence you had when you found that new job?

And of course the children - you 2 seem to be able to communicate fairly sensibly at the mo, maybe this could be opportunity to go your seperate ways civilly...

OR

Could it be that your H is actually foggy - to be expected as he is constantly triggered at work. MAybe what you need to do now is the full MB and a tiptop plan A followed by a well planned plan B.


((((BH28)))

Thanks ST,

bags packed communication civil. Havent discussed finances yet as im still upset to think about the details. His parent will not have him stay with them as they are angry at his lack of effort family wise and they have seen all the effort i have made in the past year they keep saying how much they admire and support me although i have made it clear i will not be upset if they support their son too as i am a mother and can understand where they are coming from however they are adamant that he has deceived them too and he has been lying to them while they know where they stand with me as they feel i have always been honest through good and bad (they are aware of MK DD and my past).
They have stated repeatedly that they think i have done all i can and that they think its time i started looking after me and letting WS fend for himself as he is in lala land when he thinks of what life will be like on his own. I dont have the energy to tell him the trooth of what he will face on his own as I will not be there to support him (as wife or friend) any longer and he will have to get used to being part time parent. He has always had 2 parents and does not realise what the separation will do to the kids even in the best case scenario. All he had to do was to fully commit to working on M and family he chooses not to. What can i do??

As he is a member of MB plan B will not work as he knows all about it. Plan A done to death and cannot do it anymore. Coaching was going ok but then he says he understand things when steve tells him yet within a day he forgets all about it and is confused again. Next coaching is on monday suggested he coaches alone with Steve, dont hold out much hope though.

I don't think him knowing about plan B necessarily means it will not work.

What do you want at this point? Are you relieved it is over? or are you at the bottom of your heart hopeful that you can still do it? Do you want to do it?

What does your H want out of the coaching session? Surely if he is going to have it then he must think that there is a possibility that the M can be salvaged. Why is he telling you it's over and then having Marriage Counselling? IS he just trying to keep you of kilter?


Would it be of more benefit for you to have it? If he takes this one, will you book another one for yourself?

Hey ST,
Really I thought plan be was not possible if he knows about it and also i dont know if i have the stamina for plan B.

What I want is simply to work on M in a fair manner that does not involve anymore asking me to take over things so he can work on M only to find out he wasnt and was using his time to do other things while me in good faith trusted him to be doing what he said he was doing. I want my family and i want my M but i dont know where to go from here. He sat down telling me that 6 weeks into MB has made no difference to him and he has made no progress, does anyone understand the amount of sacrifices i have made during these 6 weeks to give him the chance to concentrate on MB? he deflects the situation onto my previous past and since then i doubt anyone has given him any help on the current situation rather concentrated on my past, this is fair but not a good time for it when right now priority is to sort out the mess that he is still causing. I can offer him every ounce of me the minute he actually commits to this wholeheartedly i just need to see this isnt just another stunt he is pulling to buy himself kids free time and leave me with all the housework.
WS wants the coaching because he realises that his supposed naivity will not help him in life with or without me. His pride has been hurt by falling for COW and therefore he wants to make sure that he has built up enough strenght to be less naive.

I dont really know what to say to Steve at this point. He is a Coach not a councellor and right now i need to stabilise my suicidal tendencies as im feeling dangerously low but wont talk to WS about it as dont want him to stay in M out of pity, I need to look out professional help as the ending it thoughts are becoming overwhelming at this time and i recognise the downward pattern. I wish i could be the one to pack her bags and go somewhere safe for a while to get myself together as when men leave your not only left with the devastain of the abandonment but have to still keep house and kids running and right now i am overwhelmed by that.

I really dont know what to do. WS is not fighting for M, he is running and I cant bear to stop him again only to find myself here a few months from now. I originally set a target of January but after the disasters of this week it had to come forward.

Suicidal thoughts are nothing to play with. Is there anyone you can talk to? Some people play them off (obviously they havenever really experienced them) bu they are one of your brain's warning sides. Please take care of yourself.

Are you feeling that now that your past actions are out, your H is feeling more jusitified in his own affair? Because that is bunk. Nothing - not even another possible affair - justifies cheating. And 6 weeks on MB isn't very long. This is a life change, not a short term program just to get over something. Your H should be thinking long term.

I am so sorry you are going through all of this.

thanks luri

I know what u are saying about the thoughts and im trying to assess best way to get help, i feel like i should walk into a hospital and get them to help, i feel that desperate but until you actually harm yourself no one takes you seriousely. I dont want to harm myself i dont want to have these thought and i dont want to be at risk but dont know who to turn to before i would talk to WS who would know what to do now i feel that i cant because he is leaving and if i say anything he will stay out of fear, thats no way to live for him or me. I dont want to go to any friends as they will tell WS. My therapist has been on personal leave since octovber and is not due back until january who can i go to that will take me seriousely. The thought of dealing with breakup aftermath is literally overwhealming my brain and its going to easy exit mode.

Yes i feel that WS used my past actions as a get out of jail card when things were getting real for him on MB. I cant justify my actions because they are unjustifiable but I did not feel ready to talk about them due to the delicate state of WS R. He effectively cut me off MB when he told my past and having no where to turn i just switched off again. WS is not thinking long term he really does not understand the concept of ongoing recovery he has always wanted A just to go away.

Plan B isn't about 'working.' It's about you retaining your sanity by not having to deal with him every day. It makes no difference how it affects HIM.

Plan B is for YOU. Write your letter and hand it to him as he leaves.

I agree with lurioosi, if you are having suicidal thoughts, you need to find someone to talk to now. Do you have any family or close friends nearby that could help you out with the kids for awhile and give you a break? Looking at the ages of your kids, I can certainly understand why you are feeling overwhelmed, and having to deal with M problems on top of that would be enough to push anyone over the edge. You really do need to get some help and start taking care of yourself.

BH,

I have not been active on your H's thread. I'm usually very quick to spend time with a new wayward here. Something has not set right with me from the beginning of his postings here. My thought at this point is that your H has taken his A underground or he is involved in a new A.

From reading your post today, my concern is that you are dangerously close to a nervous breakdown. I would recommend that you call your family doctor immediately and talk to him about your situation (possibly anti-depressants if you aren't already on them).

One of the best ways to overcome the stress and anxiety is to enter into Plan B. You are a perfect candidate for Plan B. I would recommend you keep the appointment with Steve Harley and talk to him about how to go into Plan B. BTW, Steve IS a counselor. They just choose to call themselves coaches.

Whatever you do, please take care of your immediate needs. Make sure you eat, drink plenty of fluids, and contact some people who can help you and ask them for their assistance with your children and with your home. My wife contacted our church, and they were willing to bring meals. Some of her close friends agreed to contact her everyday to make sure she was eating and to see if she needed help with the kids that day.

Break your day into small portions of time and only focus on that small time chunk. Eliminate commitments that aren't absolutely necessary. We only have today to worry about.

{{{{{{{BH}}}}}}}

BH28

What about MIL? you said she is supportive of you - she knows the deal. If you're worried that WH will stay out of pity or sense of duty or fear then let him for just those reasons and know that that is why he is staying.

You can then make a plan to build yourself up and get the help you need and then let him go. Make good use of him while you are feeling like this.

This is a fallacy:
He did NOTHING to keep you from MB. YOU did that. YOU can do anything you want. You can't control him, of course, but you CAN control you.

So...time to stop the stinkin' thinkin'.

Go to www.unitedway.org and find the center closest to you. Call them and ask for help. That's what they are there for. Millions of Americans pay billions of dollars each year, just so United Way can help people in spots like yours. Make good use of my donation!

I know it isn't the same as talking, but I have been down the suicidal road before - I don't talk about details on boards much. If you want to get my email from the mods it would be fine. In the meantime, look at those childrn. Mak a list of all the friends and family who care about you. They would be so devastated if you ever hurt yourself. And suicide attempts fail more often than not - they are horrible and painful. This isn't an option!

I have prayed for you and will continue to do so. You are a valuable person.

BH28 - you have mail. I guess your littlies will be off to bed soonish?

Hi Everyone,

I am in the UK so no centers that accessible, MIL will tell WS and has enough on her plate as her mother was admitted to hospital yesterday and she has asked that i assist with the doctors etc she is so distressed. I dont have any other family my mother lives far away and WILL NOT help, she is unaware of my suicide attempts following D day as she would have made situation worse by making it about her somehow, i feel safer is she was not involved. At the moment I am having intense thoughts, planning and fantasising about not being here anymore to escape realty of being left to care for 4 kids under 8 when i cant even look after myself properely, i havent washed in 8 days, i havent eaten in 2 days and have been in tears constantly, I know im not right, i dont feel right, i feel that i need to be somewhere safe and i dont feel safe here right now. cant even watch TV, read a book feel in a daze and only comofrt is the end of it all. I am telling you this not to scare you please dont think I am the kind of person who would make you all worry and then go do it. What i am trying to say is that i need to talk about the way i feel so i dont act on it.

WS is not aware of this as i go underground just before i harm myself, i almost act too normal because the exit option in my brain keeps me comfortable that I have a way out of this. Its very weak way to be i know, i even talk myself round to thinking kids will be better off, no one would notice etc. I havent got to that stage but i am heading into catatonic state and need to get help before it gets that way.

Kids in bed WS still packing up the rest of his things, im in bed writing on here.

jo@samaritans.org

use this email address or call this number right now: 08457 90 90 90

Please got to hospital and tell them of your previous attempts. Do you have friends who can looks after your kids? If the hospital or doctors won't help after knowing you have been down this road before, shame on them is what I say. Take a good shower. Did your counselor give you anyone to call while he/she was gone?

YOur H is there at the mo. He can stay with the kids.

A hospital would take you seriously.

thanks staytogether,
as soon as WS leaves house will conact them, thats when thing will get at the worse point. I would not do anything with kids at home. But then i can easely call friend as her to look after kids for 5 mins while i go to the shop and not come back so i have to find a way to get through tonight for a start and they may be able to talk to me enough to distract me.

I was stable on anti depressants when councellor went on leave so not given me any emergency plans, there is a womens service house that i tryed to contact last year around D Day but they practically laughed at me as to them me feeling suicidal due to WS having A was ridiculous, I took my car and bought hose pipe and attempted suicide the next day.

BH, no one on this forum is equipped to help you deal with suicidial thoughts or actions.

Please click on this link and call the number in the UK;

LINK

Ok thanks tst and I agree with you on that point but have no where else to turn, I will call the number above as soon as WS is out of the house. I will promise you all that I will try my hardest to stay safe. Thank you all for the concern.

Please tell your MIL about this. It would kill her to have something happen to you, and her not know about it or not be able to do anything. Don't do that to her.

Dear BH

I HAVE E-MAILED YOU PLEASE E MAIL ME BACK. YOU HAVE PEOPLE WHO LOVE AND CARE ABOUT YOU ON THIS SITE. I AM ONE OF THEM. YOU HAVE MEANT THE WORLD TO ME IN MY TIME OF NEED AND DISTRESS. PLEASE LISTEN, AND GET SOME HELP TONIGHT. PLEASE CALL YOUR FRIENDS, PLEASE CALL YOUR MIL, PLEASE CALL ME. IN MY E MAIL I HAVE GIVEN YOU MY NAME AND NUMBER. PLEASE KNOW THAT YOU MATTER IN THIS WORLD, YOU HAVE A PLACE IN THE LIVES OF YOUR CHILDREN, AND YOU HAVE A PLACE IN THE LIVES OF YOUR FRIENDS.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE REACH OUT AND KEEP REACHING WE ARE REACHING FOR YOU IN EVERY WAY WE CAN.

PLEASE SEEK A SAFE PLACE, KNOW THAT I AM WITH YOU IN MY HEART AND SPIRIT, YOU ARE NOT ALONE

BB I am safe got throught the night please dont panic I am helping myself because if i was too far gone i wouldnt have told you guys about the thoughts as wouldnt put you through that. I got through the nights its 5:30 am and im on my way to work so will be areound people. I am trying to stay safe please beleive me when i say that I never told anyone the last 2 times i planned to hurt myself me telling you guys is a way to help me keep safe. Please dont worry BB i got the samaritains number and I have a busy distracting day ahead.

Good. Hope you have a good day.

Dear BH

So, so glad to see you this morning. So glad you you made it through the night. I was so worried, concerned about you. Check in through out the day if you feel like it. Use that number and use my number, also we can skype, I'm on there just look for me. i gave you my real name. look for me on facebook or e-mail, or let's talk here.

if you want to talk, vent I'm here....well I guess we're all here, right fellow MB'ers?

Hey BB and ST,
Got back from work and WS is still here he stayed the night as had no where to go as his parents wont have him i made him swear to me that he would not read my thread and he has shown no signs of knowing about my thoughts last night. Things were still separate last night, he was doing his own thing and i was on here. He has made a list of all the negatives of splitting up and has asked that i give him until Steves session on monday so he can decide for sure what he wants to do. I feel calmer and although not sure chat with Steve will go well I am hoping that by him not leaving this is a good sign that he was trying me to see if i would back off him working on M and go back to the horrible life we had before, he soon realised that i rather be alone and struggle than be in a relationship based on me giving more of myself and not getting anything back.
He does this once in a while when he want out of something that is getting to him like working on himself, I have always begged him to stay offering to back off not mention A ever again etc but as you guessed by my nature im not good at holding things in and the subject of A will rear its ugly head within weeks of promise.
Its like everytime he tryes something he purposely fails and says "there you go i tryed that and it didnt work now will you just get over it?" and as much as i want to we all know it doesent work that way.
I am feeling ok today havent had much chance to think of self harm as work was manic, kids are out seeing raindeer display with MIL and FIL so dont feel very overwhelmed, have slight upset as WS goes back to work with OW tomorrow after a weeks holiday so can see the daily anxiety coming back but what can i do about that? I have learned to distract myself but when you feel low you cant concentrate on much like TV or reading so will try and go to sleep early.

I am so sorry that i have scared BB and made you so worried i really am, please let me reassure you again that by me telling someone about what i am thinking regarding self harm is a preventative for me and im sorry you got scared. I really care about member on MB to me they arent just words on the screen they are people who are loving and giving and even when they are being tough its never done out of malice so I would not do this to you or anyone on here just so i go self harm and leave you feeling horrible.

BH,

My advice to you is to take the stuff he already packed up and throw it out the front door. It's not YOUR problem if he has no place to sleep. He's a big boy and can figure it out. Let him sleep in his car and wash up at work.

If he has to make a list, make sure he has all the facts. Let him find out what it's like to be without his family.

Boot his hiney out the door.

Then...

change the locks.

Give him the Plan B letter that you post here first for feedback, and be done with his a$$ until he is ready to be a husband. That would include no longer being employed where OW works.

This is going to wear you down emotionally even further.

I packed tst's stuff up and told him to pick it up within three days or Goodwill would come pick it up. You don't deserve to continually be treated like this.

Tell him to keep his appointment with Steve if he's interested in saving his family.

In the Plan B letter, specify that he can no longer work with OW AND he must present a recovery plan that he has worked through with Steve Harley. Until those two things have been completed, you do not want to hear from him in any way.

BH, Plan B is about protecting yourself emotionally. Now you are beginning to understand WHY it is so important. A BS can completely break down after dealing with a wayward for so long.

Your husband's attitude has been wayward the entire time he has been here on this board. He hasn't "tried for 6 weeks". He reminds me of my FWH during our false recovery. We went to counseling together for a few sessions. It was all so he could say he tried, but it's not going to work. That's what your husband has done here.

tst also mentioned in an earlier post to you yesterday that your WH is either still in his affair or in a new one. Everytime that tst has said this on the board, it has later come out that he was correct.

Your husband had not been "working on recovery."

I'm sorry. I know you are in a dark place right now. We've all been there...and we've all survived. You will, too.

Pull yourself out of the pit and take control of your life. Your WH is unsafe and has no place in your life right now. Protect yourself. Protect your children.

Excellent advice, SMB

One thing to add:

NO MAN is worth depriving your children of a mother. NO MAN!

If WH is driving you to lose your grip, he needs to go. NOW. Yesterday. Gone. Done. He'll have to earn his way back from outside the home.

Next time you start down the self-destructive thoughts and you want some kind of cold water to dash on that fire, consider him and OW raising your children...

Then wash your face, put on a clean conscience and get down to finding your mojo again. But get the poison out of your space.

No one can love your babies like you can.

Dear BH:

I second, third, fourth, fifith, sixth, seventh .....well you get the picture, everything that smb and kalaAndy say. It is time. I didn't want to say this before but I will now. when your WH posted on my sight it made me very uncomfortable. After reading his thread and "hearing and seeing" his excuses for EA and then PA, I really felt he had no business posting on any woman's site. But, I am nor can I be objective about this. It is really difficult in most instances for me to get advise from WS, because I kind of think all of them are jerks right now, mine being the biggest of course.

I think you are being given excellent advise, let him experience life without his family, no more cake eating. You are a survivor, you will come out on the better end of this. Either a better more committed husband and marriage or a woman on her own living life to its fullest with the ability to offer any man worthy of her gifts, the best life has to offer.

Hang in there BH...you can survive this.

I agree with everything they say, too. NO man is worth your kids losing you. NO MAN.

I just spent 6 days with my D19 at her college dorm (her job wouldn't let her off work to come home, so I went there). It reinforced for me how important I am to her. I've almost 'let go' several times, just to get away from my H. But the only real loser in that situation would have been my daughter. And it's not fair to her to have to deal with that.

Same for you and your kids. NO MAN is worth that.

Listen to them. Protect yourself your worth it.

HI Bh28


What's your plan? I think we're unanimous here

Hey Everyone thank you so much for the support sorry i havent had a chance to respond till now, went to bed early last night as was exhausted after a day of "being normal" at work despite really wanting to just be in curled up in bed.
I agree with everything you guys are saying and I have survived worse things than a separation and thinking and agreeing with you as my own mother called me yesterday and said the same as you guys (she is unaware of thoughts) she called and caught me unaware so i blabbed as to situation with WS and his fantasy land where he actually thinks that life wont be that bad on his own. She loves adores and worships WS and has never ever ever been on my side and I have kept my mouth shut about the way things have been since A she is aware of A and was the one to tell me i got to suck it up men do these things just get on with being a wife and mother, however yesterday she told me to let him go to get rid of him as he seems to beleive that living in his car for a year so he can save up is a good thing he actually answered me seriousely when i asked where will you shower what will you do about needing the toilet how will you save money when you have to eat takeaways as no place to cook ets. he had the answer to all of that. He is in la la land and my mother is actually getting him an inflatable pillow for xmas so he can use in his car. My mother has never been on my side ever and for her to be in favour of kicking him out is a total shock to my system.

As far as him being worth me harming myself over, its not actually about him, i have no faith in my parenting skills i am scared to the core of how the kids will turn out without both parents, he says he will always be there for them but he forgets that i know him better than he knows hiself and can see him disappearing within months of separation, leaving kids devastated. He doesnt know how to put his family first now that he is with us how the heck will he be when he is on his own i can see alot of noshows to visits with kids etc and the thought of coping with all of this stunts me. If i could leave him with the kids and go i would because then they would be left with the better parent. There is no community no family help no respite help where I live each person thinks only about themselves, we live in a council estate and its full of disfunctional families its full of crimes and drugs, how can I protect the kids on my own how can i steer them away from all this badness around here on my own when i dont even have the streanght to look after myself. If I had someone to help me get through the first week of separation i think i would be ok but i have to do it all on my own and its OVERWHEALMING. Plus and this is a big plus Xmas is around the corner its such a horrible time to do this to the kids. I have been with this man my entire adult life I dont know how to be me again. I depend on him more than i should, because he is here he makes me think i am cared about, when he goes the hopeless/unlovable feelings kick in and then the self destruction follows.
My plan right now is to get through today with Steve coaching then him going to work, the rest i dont know i really dont, I am taking each day as it comes. I know thats not the way to do it but I am thinking of going back on the anti depressants to help me thought the separation and they take 3 weeks to kick in so January is my D Day. How does that plan sound to you guys am i still being a [censored]? First priority is to feel safe and drown the overwhealming feelings then numb with Antidepressants then do what I need to do whatever that may involve, kicking WS out or letting him try at home.

HI BH28

I think it is a good idea for you to have a plan. I was encouraged here to go my separate ways immediately with H after his last abusive bout, but I decided to cling on for a bit longer so that we could go on holiday together as a family rahter than spoil that for the kids. I was confident that he wouldn't be violent again in the near future. And Iknew the verbal and emotional abuse would be low level.

We were able to plan the moving out bit together so that it was a smooth transaction fo the children, which worked well for us. I really think he has to go. Make it your plan to be independant.

Now then as for no support where you are - I bet there is. Look up Sure start and get involved with your local sure start centre. You sound like you are in just the area to have such a thing. They will provide you with parenting support and provide activities for you to go to wiht your children, they will also provide info on avaiability of local childcare if you need to explore that. Where I am they occaionally advertise for volunteers to "befriend" people with young families, gte our self one of them too.

If you want to email me your location I wil investigate what your local service offers.

This is a terrific new service that the government are offering to help families keep stable and to build communities. The one where I am has really taken off.

GEt to the docs and get those anti-ds, and then then you can make a list here of each point on your plan to work towards giving you confidence for when H moves out. OR in private in case he reads here.

You can provide the right environment for your children and if it is the way it is meant to be, you can do this w/o your H.

Positive thinking


You are the best mother for your children. IS that doc appt booked?

Dear BH

I second what staytogether has said, and yes you do have a working plan. Dr.'s for medical intervention, seek out a therepist or stay with steve for personal counseling, we're alright, but not professional. Then check into community services, and see a lawyer, make him pay every way you can. Absolutly sleep in the car, lucky if you let him keep it.

How can a mother, a parent be the worst one when you are the one to already be concerned with the well being of your children? Tackle one day at a time. If he doesn't show up for the kids, then deal with that as it comes. Right now, those boys need a parent, mother who puts herself in a healthy place, loves herself enough to stay safe and keep them safe. WH gets to fend for himself. all that effort you've been putting in to meet his needs and get yours met now just got cut in half. Now you're first, boys second. you have to be there to be "there " for them.

You are a strong, beautiful, intelligent, sensitive woman. When you are ready, WS will either come running home or you will find yourself running into a bright, new future. One that involves the people you want in it.

Thinking of you and holding you in my heart.

Hi BH-

Check with the Salvation Army in your area for resources. They're international, and may have a center near you. They have all kinds of support for moms and kids. They can help with the Christmas stuff too.


Please don't be so hard on yourself. It seems to me that you are questioning your parenting skills based on your WH's choices. His choices have nothing to do with you. And he is most definitely NOT "the better parent". The better parent is the one who is there-no matter what.

When I was going through the worst of it, I was very worried about my YS (then 14). I was separated, going through chemo and my then WH was set on D. To top it off, my DD had just gotten married and my OS had just started college 300 miles away so my YS had to deal with them "leaving" as well. I was so worried about him and all he was keeping bottled in so I took him to my IC. Although the IC didn't share with me what he and my YS talked about, the IC did say something that helped me to not worry so much. He said "Your YS knows that he is deeply loved. We can survive a lot if we know that we are deeply loved." Your sons will be able to do the same.

You aren't much older than my DD, so I do feel a bit "protective" of you. I wish I could reach out and hug you to let you know that I'm here for you, just like others on this site. So, consider this a "cyber" hug from one mama bear to another. We are here when you need us.

(((BH28))

I commented earlier on not being to hard on yourself also. I can assure you that spending time in healthy relationships with your children and with people who seek love will bring positive change. I have not read enough to see if you have a faith or a personal faith in God. I am sure that you will find the strength and integrity that you are exhibiting here to line up with his heart. Keep seeking and asking for help and don't be ashamed that you need hope. We all do.
Your plan looks good to me and I see how you are afraid but get the meds and hold on. It seems like it will never end but there is a light at the end of this dark tunnel. A Child needs his mother. You might not feel like you can do this but you are able. Somewhere I read that a mother is where a boy learns about how to treat women. We all have heard that you can tell a lot about a man by how he treats his mother. You have four boys and it must be a handful. You probably need to appeal to thier sense of fairness but just stand your ground and stand for love. I can't really give you counsel on them because I am a Dad. I am sure that there are resources out there with people that are strong enough to admit love is the answer and can show your sons the measure of a Man. Keep your head up you will get thru this. It will take time so take life one day at a time.

Hey everyone just thougth i would check in quickly, Im so sorry i havent been around the past couple of days, nothing new has happened but i have been super bogged down with work and house and kids and organising xmas and settling Pups in their new homes i have been falling asleep by 9pm every evening.

I will post the full update tomorrow as i finally have a day off work.

I am safe, I think I am ok and got meds prescription from the GP although not started taking them yet. Hope you are all ok and i am really missing chatting to you.

Glad you checked in.

BH,

When I commented to you about not going to the Christmas party, you said you spoke to Steve about it and it is a closed matter.

What exactly does that mean?

Hey SMB

I said I was working on it with Steve. Its not as easy as a closed matter. Me and Steve have come up with a plan WS needs to help make it happen, then xmas party subject WILL be closed. I have been plannig for this party for a year and its not going to go away just like that. I have discussed it with Steve at every coaching session including the one last monday the 30th. WS took me to the store the previous week and it helped alot to burst the bubble but its still not gone away. I know what you will all think of this but I got to be honest here, Its just not going to disappear all on its own overnight. Im sorry about the way I am obsessed with it but in a way i cant help it and i am seeking the right path to resolve the issue thats all i can offer right now.

The plan Steve set out is to go on our own soclial event on the night of the party instead, not go out just me and WS as I will be thinking about party all night but going out with other couples in a social group will help immensly. WS has to arrange evening and ofcourse WS has done no arranging so far.

Have you filled your prescription yet?

yes got meds cat but not started taking them yet. Had appointment with the family homeopath yesterday and he has given me some homeopathic remedy to try out first, if that doesent help then i have the antidepressants as backup.

Hey everyone just forwarding an email I wrote steve today to give you an update on whats going on with us right now. WS is as usual making excuses and hiding, Im so bogged down with extra shifts at work (to pay for Steve sessions that WS is wasting, battling my own demons, kids and house that I am totally drained.



"Hey Steve
Hope you are well, as instructed I am contacting you in order to get help in difficult situations that have arisen. Its now 4 Days since our last appointment with you and unfortunately due to time and finance issues we were not able to book a session until the 10th of December, in the mean time the following problem is causing huge arguments and I need your guidence to resolve it.

Monday and Tuesday night xxxxx worked extra hours for his company, this meant that he was not able to start thinking about the plan/task you have set him or do any jobhunting. I am increasingly distressed by the amount of extra unpaid hours he is putting into a job he will be leaving in the near future however he maintains that he has to do these extra shifts/hours, Am I really that wrong to point out that he needs to put the family first, as long as he works the hours he is being paid for he IS doing his job, he argues this as "eveyone in retail managment does extra hours" so i have to accept this. I point out that "everyone else" is either single or with grown kids and not having marital problems (an after he considers his colleagues circumstances agrees with my statement). I am getting really fed up of being the bottom of the pile in his priorities, i have full backed off let him do his own thing not made any demands but just simply requested that he concentrates on what you have set him to do and think about, thats all i have asked of him and his excuse is that this is the first time he has not priorotised your plan (like its ok not to because its the first time).

Steve help me i am getting so stressed upset and totally loosing faith. I cant keep explaining to him that our marriage and family should come above working extra hours for a company that has royally hurt us so much. Why cant he see that we matter too?? why does he not understand that working his 39 hours a week and doing a good job in those hours is what he is getting paid for. Im not asking him to cut back on his scheduled hours im asking for him to refrain from giving this company anymore of our scarce family time and to add insult to injury he does this for nothing but the constaint need for admiration from work.

Let me know what you think and where i should go from here.

Thanks
Mrs xxxxxx

Which homeopathic remedy?

Hey SMB my homeopath has given me CARC (carcinosin) 30c tot take once a day everyday. Is that what you were asking as in what homeopathic remedy or did you want to know what homeopathy is?

Oh, I know homeopathy. We've been under a homeopathic DO for 15 years.

I used Ignatia during the months following D-day because I was dealing with so much shock and grief (used the Rescue Remedy, too, on D-days). I know there are many remedies that deal with depression, so I was curious which one your dr. prescribed.

Cool we have been trying homeopathy for 3 years, my homeopath originally came reccomended for my son's reflux. Then he progressed to treating all of us when thigs came up. He is a really good guy and he did give me Ignatia and Arnica (hight potency one) for the shock of D Day. I have tryed other things since and see him once every 8 weeks as you know there are alot of different emotions that we go through after D day and he has tryed to help when some of them came up. Now im onto Carc and waiting to see if any help.

Have you done a constitutional treatment with your Dr. in the past?

SMB I have no idea what consitutional treatment means. What is it and what doctor, homeopath or General doctor?

If you are under the care of a homeopath, I am surprised you are not familiar with constitutional treatment (no offense intended).

Here's a link that explains constitutional homeopathy

Constitutional Homeopathy


Here is a simpler explanation. Go to #2 What are the Three Levels of Homeopathic Treatment.

3 Levels of Homeopathy


Constitutional treatment can be incredibly effective at curing chronic health issues, but I would suggest you confirm that you are under the care of a true homeopath (again no offense intended) before attempting constitutional treatment, and not just someone who practices a variety of "alternative" approaches, but is not a licensed DOCTOR.

In the book, Homeopathic Medicine at Home, by Dr. Panos and Dr. Heimlich, it explains...

Many are uncertain about a homeopath's training. A homeopathic physician undergoes the same training as any other doctor of medicine; he or she is a graduate of an accredited medical college, receives an M.D. degree, and is licensed by the state. To learn the specialty of homeopathy, sometimes called homeotherapeutics, the doctor takes a postgraduate course in the subject, then a preceptorship with a prescribing homeopathic physician.

hey SMB I can totally say that i am getting the constitutional treatment. I never knew there was any other way thats why i was confused. Alistair (my homeopath) comes over once every 8 weeks we have a good discussion about my overall state emotionally and phisically, he will only prescribe one remedy at a time and he takes into consideration my whole being not just phisical ailment. There are times when he will give me emergency treatment if i fall ill like Arnica etc but generally the aim is a long term gradual healing with one remedy at a time. I tend not to look up the remedy he gives me because i trust he is doing the right thing since homeopathy is the sole reason my son stopped continousely vomiting from reflyx when he was younger. For example he gave my son a remedy for his reflux but also to treat the emotional traumas he suffered in hospital. This has changed him from being a withdrawn child to an affectionate one.

Hi BH

Just wondering how counselling with Steve went and if you WH is still in the home or if he did leave. How are you and what has been happening? So glad to see that you are taking care of yourself physically and emotionally. Hoping that the news is good.

Hey BB
Sorry that I havent been around, been hectic all week with extra shifts at work, xmas preparation and gym. Have not had response from Steve after I sent the email I shared with the forum, next coaching session is Thursday the 10th of December. In the mean time I have been so run off my feet that nothing much has happened. Dont feel as down as I did last week and WS working on Steve task well so havent got anything to complain about right now. He was asked by Steve to do a list of boundries related to his emotional needs being met by OWen etc and email them to him, WS finally started doing this list Firday (4 days after he was supposed to have started) but following stern discussion finally gets the fact that i have backed off and if he wants me to trust him to do what he has been asked to do then he needs to start doing it before it gets to the point of arguments and discussions. This weekends he has been very caring and affectionate and i can honestly say i am happy with the way things are at the moment. Still my stpid head plays the "this is too good to be true and remember what he did card" but i have it under control. the scary thing is that when things are going too well i almost feel uncomfortable because i forget what happened for a few minutes and my brain takes it upon itself to remind me by throwing a few nasty images in the way so it feels like being kicked in the tummy everytime a memory related to the time of A comes up. I am conciousley trying to control this and im happy to say WS has picked up a sixth sense of when this happens and has stepped up when needed by just giving me a cuddle without the need to say anything like a reassuring "its allright now, im here" kind of thing.
Even work issue has been solved, Creepy manager got sacked and R is on good behaviour after being shamed by me in front of colleagues regarding him persuing married woman. Feel bad for him but at the end of the day he deserved to be put back in his place after coming onto a married person.

Pleased to hear you are feeling more positive. Remember he has to fix this. It's very hard not to interfere and end up more or less doing everything for them. And then he'll have learnt nothing from the process - if you keep reminding him and being his mum he won't take responsibility for himself and you'll be resentful because he's only done these things because you kept going on at him to do it.

Anyway - that may not be the case with you. Just don't be frustrated at what he is or isn't doing and you focus on your plan and what you are doing and be proud of what you are achieving.

ST

PS Don't forget the managing memories thread onthe discovery forum if you keep having problems with images.

Hey ST

I agree with your point completely regarding him doing things out of nagging not out of understanding, however I have reached a stage where I have to trust Steve, he is working well with WS and I am seeing changes daily, The cake eating WS was doing (my version of cake eating not MB version, ie telling me he needs space to work on things therefore wont be helping with kids and house then end up not actually working on anything) has stopped, this is a major improvement in my resentment. WS has figured out that he doesent need 6 hours a day to work on his many lists as it was getting him nowhere, just working with Steve and spending maybe 1 hour a day doing so still leaves time for kids and house then when he has had extra time he has been reading SAA constaintly without prompring or remindingany pressure, i think he is really enjoying reading and understanding. If he finds something in there he wants to communicate to me he will leave a pagemarker for me and i will read it when i get the chance. I want to read SAA but these days i fall asleep standing up im so overworked so reading is out of the question, I cant even watch a movie all the way through without falling asleep at the opening credits lol.

I think Steves method with him is good as he seems to plant the seed in his head regarding a certain aspect of A and WS has to nourish and grow it out and eventually the behaviour changes are obvious to me too. What I hate seeing is WS not nourishing the seed so to speak WS is a tomorrow kid of guy (ie if a job needs doing it can be done tomorrow) im more of a today kind of girl (if a job needs doing better get it done today as this leaves time for things that can go wrong etc) so when WS was taking 4 days to start Steves task I got irritated but this was soon sorted with one conversation and WS appears to understand my "today" theory. Now he has set time aside each day to do task and still be husband and father wich is ideal for me and this has been great so far, as WS is happier within himself, life is no longer consumed by A its a work in progress that gets tackled a bit each day.
I just hope that i can sort my end of the issue out and stop getting these images or being set off by triggers everywhere.

I'm so glad things have gotten better. I was glad to see that he was still at home, and trying to work through this with you. Why do they always think we and our family would be better off without them. Do they really think that or is it just their way of trying to run away from the pain. Run away from the work it will take to make things not just right, better than what they were before. Either way I am so glad for you and your family.

Things are looking up right now for us too. I am doing my best to put those same memories out of my mind. I am purposefully not asking questions that come to my mind. I am trying to give both of us a break. With the wedding right around the corner, my mind is racing. I let him read what you wrote about the vows and he just kind of shook his head. I told him then that I expected him to do his best and protect me from the hurt that might come up, the sorrow. I told him I want him to be holding my hand, possible arms around me and make sure as best he can, that I know and realize that the vows still mean something to him, hopefully more than they ever have.

So, we'll see. I am trying not to prepare for anything. I don't want to be disappointed or hurt. I just want to enjoy my daughter's wedding as best as I can. I'm sure it will be bittersweet, but I'm hoping for more sweet than bitter.

So....here's hoping for the best during the holiday season.

hey BB

I dont think that supressing your questions is ideal either and im saying this because when i did this it bit me in the backside big time when i supress it gets to a point when it all comes out in a big resentful fight, dont hold back so much but be constructive with it, maybe write down the questions as and when they come up and let WS know you are doing this, ask him to let you know when he is ready to answer things, wait for him to come to you as he will see you are making an effort to meet half way, a healthy marraige to me means compromise, im sure he isnt happy to be bombarded with questions all day everyday but you wont be happy holding it all in so half way is you writing questions down then let him set day and time when he will be happy to sit down and answer, Make sure you write the answers down as over the months I asked the same questions over and over again because i forgot the answers, having it all on paper for you to go back to refer to might help unless your genuinley not satisfied with the answer or think the answer will have changed (also good way to catch someone in a lie if he is lying about things). What do you think is this a possibility for you?

i am glad that now you are aware of the possible problem with the wedding day you will hopefully be able to tackle it before and it wont just sneack up on you. Dont tell him what he should be doing like cuddling you etc just tell him what you are worried about and give him a chance to act the way he should on his own as this will mean more than being told what to do.

Quick update. Things are still hectic but harmonious in the household, no fights no LBs and no big issues, all going well, lets hope it lasts. Looking forward to seeing kids face on xmas day as last year was horrific as was shortly after D Day and things were very Low, this year im determined kids will have fun no matter what. Finding it easier to laugh these days which is great feeling like my old self a little bit and just loving the peace and harmony. WS seems really appreciative of the good days we have been having and still working on Steves task as saw email he sent to Steve today regarding his set task. I didnt even to worry about him slipping back into ignorant comfort of doing nothing as he has been compling with MB well. Please please remind me of these good times if the bad days return as need days like the past week to hold onto in order to get through the bad. Even got a spontaneous bunch of roses Saturday, it was nice as not done due to being forced to care, he is caring all on his own accord, this is my idea of heaven.

That's the rollercoaster!! You get used to it and once you know there will be another up it's easier to get to it.

Yep and I need you lot to remind me of the up when it goes down.
Things had been so dark for ages I forgot that letting go and being just a little bit less controlling can be so freeing and helpful. WS told me that a simple text message i sent him spurred him on. I mean all the stupid stern talks and hour snd hours of yelling did nothing one text message saying I still loved him made all the difference, go figure!

Hey everyone,
Ok everything is still going well i am being bombarded with soppy text messages and cuddles and care, nothing to complain about so why o why does my stupid demented brain wont let me be??
The more he is affectionate, caring , loving and considerate the more images and more triggers i get. Is this normal??
Today for example driving around minding my own blimming business and guess what, there it is bold as anything the sign for the hotel they shared a bed in during A. Major trigger looks cheap and nasty and dirty. I cant help but get a kick in the gut feeling. Why cant i be normal?? The hotel started a seried of ewww memoried and thoughts during of A. Especially the hand down the trousers yukky bit and now im getting soppy text but dont want to reply. Help!

Hon, this is all normal. Is there someone you can talk to, get a hug from? You need some IRL people to comfort you. But it IS normal. But time will ease your pain; know that.

Thanks Cat WS is got very good at picking up trigger moments for me so he is very good with the cuddles but when i saw hotel i wasnt expecting it i was following the satnav to drop off friends and was finding my way home so was alone. Turned music up to drown brain and guess what stupid song was on! the new stupid one that has " da da da dada meet me in the hotel room" lyrics dont know who sings it but it seems like its always on the radio.. its like the forces that may be are conspiring against me. Atleast i can see the funny side through the pain its a laugh or cry situation. WS at work with OW now so feeling the force of being left to my own thoughts. Dont really want to talk to friends as ill hear the usual Divorce him speech, and i just dont want to go there right now. My best fried told me that as we are so similar and she knows me so well she reckons ill never get over this and my marriage is doomed. thats the level of support i get. I love her to bits but dont want to hear from people who dont support my marriage.

Hi BH
Triggers----they are a b****. Seems like every great,loving, awwwww moment comes with them. It's hardly fair, but nothing about this is.
The one thing that helps me, not all the time but most of the time, is to live in the moment. What is he saying right now? What is he doing right now? How does he feel about me right now? The other thing is: I call or text and tell him what i need right then, not why i need it so as not to dredge up guilt, but what i need. Then if he asks why, most of the time i say this,"because i need to hear from the one person that i love the most in this entire world", or "you are the only one that can touch me in this most private way". usually, that ends the why do you need this question. if it doesn't, and i think i can trust him with how i'm feeling and why, i tell him.

WH has often said to me that he knows me and that i am never going to get over this or be able to let it go. when he does this i just tell him that i am not that same person, just as the old him is gone, so is the old me and that i deserve the chance and it is my right as his wife to get over this and get what i need to let it go. only he can make this go away, make this better and that is his job if he choses to stay. i know it's not the same as a friend saying it. our friends say things based on the theory "if it happened to me", the only thing wrong with that theory is that it didn't.

here's to the hope we can all be better friends to those who need our understanding and support. you have mine, my dear friend. i am sorry the triggers are coming fast and hard. Keep moving forward don't stop. you deserve these good times, good feelings, peaceful moments of hope and love. you deserve this success you have worked hard toward this moment. give yourself the right and permission to enjoy your husband. It's about you enjoying him, not the other way around. Don't feel guilty, don't let yourself question it, fight your brain and let your heart win today. Tomorrow is another day......

Another good busy hectic day and yet still managed to have a few unwanted memories, this time tryed to get some reassurance from WS. I aske him if he truly regretted the A. he gave me short sharp answers like im supposed to know the answer is yes. And although i do i still like to hear it from him from time to time. Its weird becase he is working with Steve and im not really included in this. Wondering what tomorrows coaching session will bring. WS working a full night at work tonight so feeling vulnerable because when A was happening both sexual encounters happened on Wednesday nights, he had told me he was working a night shift when infact he was in hotel room with OW. So him working a full night is really hard for me. Any advice on how to emotionally survive the night?? tryed to watch cartoons with the kids in my bed hoping one of them would fall asleep with me so i can cuddle them to sleep but they are too used to their own beds so went back to their own room after cartoons. So now really want to get to sleep but cant. WS usually works from 4pm to 1am. A full night is from 8pm to 7am he does not do these often at all and they are not part of his contract.

Bh,
Can you & he steal a few mins to trade text messages or mobile phone calls, or is the nature of his job such that there's no way for him to do that while at work? It can't provide you with perfect peace-of-mind re: what he's up to at all times, but it's a step that could help him to demonstrate that he's at least thinking about you from time to time. Even if it's merely texts in the midle of the night when you're sound asleep, you'll see them in the morning &m ay even find yourself looking forward to them.

One of my big regrets (among many) is that in the years before my A, I got out of the habit of touching base with my W during the workday (unless it was for some decidedly unglamorous, unstimulating, utilitarian purpose like coordinating with her on calendar obligations, such as deciding which one of us would drive son to his baseball practice, or which of us would buy some groceries, etc.) But as it turned out, and as I don't think I even concsiously recognized until I was reading SAA after the whole Disaster had unfolded, I needed that human contact (of a non-utilitarian variety) in some deep way -- it was my EN for conversation. So when OW started feeling bold enough to call me at the office, and we'd talk (at first) merely about music, or exercise, or [believe it or not!] theological matters, I got myself hooked.

Since early-on in our recovery, Trust_Will_Come & I have made it a point to stay in touch daily in this way when we're apart, as best we can. And as a hospital nurse, she works lots of nightshifts too, and has to sleep during daytime as a consequence; so we've found that this type of contact, even if not lengthy or profound, has been helpful in keeping us better focused on one another.

apologies for typos -- just had shoulder surgery today so typing isn't too good right now...

IDK. If I was in your shoes, I'd be packing the kids in the car, packing him a snack, and going to visit him at work, bar or not. With the kids. So everyone sees he has a family. Beautiful kids he'd be hurting. All that jazz.

I grew up at bars, with my mom. My H did, too. So what?

hey Cat I think you posted on the wrong thread my WS does not work in a bar, neither do I.

Glove we are definitly doing what you suggested, WS has been texting me from work regularly since D day as he used to text OW contstantly (600+ text per month showing on his phonebill from time of A) so his idea of texting me instead is bitter sweet because I feel that he has simply subsituted me for OW and it burns, he doesent text anything intersting its just stupid chit chat that just gets on my nerves like kids in bed yet? or OW is not working today or something like I what are the plans for tomorrow. Its so mundane and irritating it feels like its adding insult to injury when the OW got " I love you" etc. But hey i get the message that its an improvement for him to be contacting me rather than another woman from work.

Right update time.....

Had coaching with Steve yesterday, didnt go as i would have liked as still stuck in same spot and now im really suffering financially and had to book double session for next week so money is incredibly tight which is adding even more stress to life to put it into prospective one session with steve equal 1 weeks wages for me. I cant phisically fit in anymore shifts at work right now im exhausted.

Steve asked me 4 questions to clarify where we are now basically the theory was to "treat the injury" then go onto recovery. The treating the injury is getting problematic because it involves 4 elements and there are issues with those already leading to huge bust up today but ill get to that later.
The first element is WHY basically does WS understand why he had A do i understand its not my fault etc. That one went smoothly as Steve took no prisoners with WS and explained the protect your weaknessess part of the program and so far so good, WS understands admits and works on his weaknesses that led to A.

The second element is WHAT this is as in do i know the details of what happened during the A. I do know what happened in excrutiating detail so we didnt need to spend much time on that one although i did tell WS this is your last chance to tell me if you have witheld any information as if i do discover any nasty surprises after this you will have lost the trust i am trying to build and there will be no way forward. WS took time to think and agreed that he has disclosed everything. I agree with him 99% as you can never be totally sure of these things afte the betrayal of the A.

The next section was Validation, does WS understand the injury that he has cause and that he pain is excrutiating? Steve told him about rape comparison etc and on the surface WS fought this because he said he couldnt understand because he has never been though it, Steve explained that a DR does not have to have had the illnesses of his patients to be able to treat them and finally WS started to see that he can make an effort to understand the injury. Unfortunately this is where we are stuck he only understands about 10% of the pain to the fact that he is daily making inappropriate decisions that show me that he has no clue as to the amount of pain i am in. He still works with OW he does not reassure me on any level on anything, this is starting to grate as when confronted with the lack of reassurance side WS advised that he does not reassure because he does not want to bring up A during a good period of time. this to me shows how little he understands about how I feel, THE A IS ALWAYS WITH ME in good and in bad times so reassurance like "im so glad im here i made such a terrible mistake risking our M" are never out of place. But i dont have the money to keep revisiting this issue with Steve, no matter how many times i tryed to kill myself no matter how many times i get triggered or get upset or cry nothing gets the message through to WS that the pain he has caused is not a simple bump that will disappear its a deep deep deep injury. If anyone here can help me on this one ill be grateful.

Lat pert is to ensure A never happens again and this involved WS taking his EA questionaire and setting boundried on each EA to stop it from being met outside of marriage. This task went well and as its a wait and see kind of thing i have no idea if these boundried will actually be put in place the next time some sad floozy sets her sights on him. So although on paper it looks good i cant say anything about it in actions as nothing to validate the boundries have come up yet.


Next session im supposed to send Steve my EA questionarie and the LB questionaire in order to work through the next stage of building a better marriage. I got to say I just dont feel right about this, how can i build a better marriage when there is still contact with OW?? the jobhunting is happening but at a snails pace and im seriousely fed up of the evenings at home getting skitzo about OW and WS working toghther. WS still puts work ahead of family as shown in letter i sent Steve and published on here.

Todays fight

A disabled lady who works with WS and OW came over to my house today to pick up her puppy from us. She was talking about how her H will be upset at first because she is getting a pet but then he will soften as soon as he sees the pup. I told her my WS is like that when i got the kitten he was annoyed but now he loves the cat more than anything, she told me well atleast you can get round him because he owes you (owes me as in he had A so he has no say as to what pet i get) this led to her saying that although OW has been helpful to her when she gets into difficulty at work and she has nothing against OW she also considers her to be the "Store Bike" this means the one who every male member of staff gets to ride, I said that i was aware OW had been intimate with other men in the store a part from my WS and this lady went on to give me a few more names of people this OW has slept with. I felt sick. although i know this OW history it makes me feel dirty that my WS has brough home part of her and inflicted it onto my body without my knowlede, so when this lady left i asked WS how do you feel when you hear that OW has had so many sexual partners and they are men you work with on a daily basis and does not use contraceptions etc. WS response, i dont really care about that much it doesent bother me. Rightfully or not this led to HUGE fight i mean what kind of person does not care about having stuck their intimate bits in the sewer?? or even forgetting about that what kind of person feels nothing towards a homewrecking COW?? Or how can he not feel anything towards the fact that he VIOLATED my body by not using protection and bringing me her disgusting deaseases??? I just dont get it, Is he Braindead?? He claims he cant get angry at OW as he was responsible for the sex too so i put it to him this way , no problem hun if you want me to concentrate on just your part of the A then be prepared to deal with my anger towards you, can you do that?? the answer is no.

Where do i go from here??

Bh,

I recall your history & H's, and I don't mean to underplay the complexities & the baggage, but as I read your latest post, it just seems to all boil down once again to something that most people advised from very early-on in your & H's threads: He needs to get out of that job so that he's no longer working in proximity to OW.

As long as he's there, you can't help but being triggered, he can't help but being triggered, he can never demonstrate enough rage against OW to suit you (without appearing to be blameshifting, or without winding up in jail or otherwise with a record that'll make him unemployable & useless as a breadwinner), and thus the two of you can never move forward. All else seems peripheral to this problem for the both of you right now.

That's how I see it, anyway, from my admittedly distant & imperfect vantage point. I think I've exhausted all I can say... I really am rooting for the two of you. I hope this Christmas goes well & shows you each & your little ones something new & better together as you look to the new year. God bless. //

Sorry, BH. I've done that a couple times this week! Too much stuff going on.

I think that, for me, him continuing to work with OW would be a dealbreaker. He can't possibly understand what you're going through, if he can't even see how that would hurt.

Is he doing other EPs to reassure you?

If not, I have to ask you why you would stay. It would prove to me that he has learned nothing, cares nothing, and suffered nothing. Therefore, he'll keep on having affairs. Sorry, but that's how I see it.

Can you help him with the jobhunting? Just decide that you focus on nothing else for the next month, to get him away ASAP? And if you see him NOT doing the work, that may tell you if he is even serious about leaving her/the job.

Glove and Cat,
I cant help but agree with you about the job siuation, its just NOT working. I have not had any contact with the people he works with (with exeption to the exposure email)until the past couple of months due to the puppy thing and his old manager transferring to the new store he is at, a part from that i had been very separate from his work now I have personally met a few people he works with i thought it would make things better not worse but it has had an adverse affect as they see OW as slut and although i am aware of that fact being reminded of it just brings out the dirty feeling of having shared a man with someone like that, it creeps me out so much i just want to get in the shower and scrub myself over and over again, U see even men who have A with prostitutes have the decency to wear condoms thats a protective layer between the two people this never happened with my WS its disgusting and makes me feel disgusting, he slept with me 12 hours after having unprotected sex with her he says he washed his private part but how can a little bit of water wash away all of her traces??

WS has been jobhunting more than he has ever done before but still no new job to go to and im sad because he is finally doing something about it but during an impossible period of time (xmas).

I do agree that with the exeption of being totally transparent (i have access to everything phone computer etc) and i do get texts while he is at work, WS has done nothing to reassure me while im at home. He is a poor communicator and expects me to realise that just because he is still here he does love me. What about the times he walked out?? what about the numerous times he shouted at me that he didnt love me anymore am i just supposed to have a frontal labotomy and forget about that??

I am going to give Steve one last chance to sort this out I cant afford anymore coaching in order to move though this at a snails pace, he needs to be firmer with WS, i am surprised at him as he has NOT been encouraging WS to change jobs. He has also not read emergency email regarding job, hes the one who told me to email if there was a problem but when i did just once despite 5 coaching sessions so far and i got no response 7 days later when i actually had coaching told Steve i had sent him email and he opened and read it right there and then for the first time. I know Steve is busy and i appreciate that but dont ask me to do smething if he isnt going to have the time to help. Am i being harsh? I feel like im being a horrid person but i cant help feeling disappointed that even Steve is concentrating on WS future boundries when right now if he carries on working with OW there will be no future. Am i wrong to think that if he sees that WS has no choice but to stay at his job that he should be giving him a plan as to how to reassure me when he goes to work or giving both of us ideas on how to cope when WS is in contact with OW. I feel like poop for saying the above but i cant help the way i feel, i am trying to trust Steve but his plan for us is just not meeting my needs, what do i do carry on paying for something i cant afford or speack up?

The bottom line is your H cannot stay in the job. There is nothing that can be done to alay your fears and triggers while he is there.

This is the message that you keep giving us. You could take control of this and give yourself a timeline: if he isn't in a different job by x date I will move to a plan B to protect me.

You will then deal better with the work situation because you know there is an end in sight.

Steve cannot make your H doing anything. There is no point toughing up on him. Your H has to do it because he wants to. If he is forced into something he will be resentful.

Slowly he will begin to understand, once he understands the actions will follow OR not.

You certainly seem to express that working with OM is a deal breaker. If so, firm up your boundaries and do something to protect you.

Wishing you peace and light

ST

I guess I would tell my H that, for the time being and until he changes jobs he can help me avoid a nervous breakdown by taking extraordinary measures to reassure me WHILE he is at work. Sending me a text pixture of himself at least once an hour, inviting me to work at odd times, welcoming me when I DO show up at my own decision, telling the people at work what he did so that they can help keep OW away from him...

Hi BH

you need to speak up, tell steave just what you shared on your post. those requests are not unreasonable, not at all. you have mentioned two very good and doable options re: OW and WS working together. one thing i have seen on this site is that just about everyone agrees working with the OW never works. However, relife does invade, if he can't leave yet, then what you have asked for is very reasonable.

if my WS still sat across the aisle of OW i know for a fact we would be over, one of the very things that gave us a chance was that she was let go 2 weeks after DD. even with that they continued a phone, text, e-mail relationship. so if they had been in physical proximity it would have progress to PA very quickley(thats assuming i believe what he tells me when he says it didn't)

and the other about no condoms, thats just stupid, especially in this day and age. he needs to apologize just for that alone.

are all WS stupid(mine included) when it comes to A, is it really that mind blowing, addictive and exciting?

Evening all I will respond to the above posts but for now i have huge confession about today, yes i have considered not sharing this on MB as i am aware of the huge disappointment you guys will have in me and i am risking loosing the friendships on here but i got to be honest as to what happened today and take my 2x4 as they come because the one thing i wont do is lie or hide things despite some of you thinking i did that alrady by not disclosing my past and i still maintain that was not done with intent, this however i have to tell you about no matter what and I hope that you can see past the anger you will have towads me and carry on being here for me.

Ok here it goes. Today was followup from yesterays fight as to why WS does not get angry disgusted at the above facts regarding OW and what he did with someone like her. WS spent all night reading literature confirming OW past and character (that was hidden from him during A) in the hope of unlocking some hidden anger or disgust (his idea not mine) so woke up this morning in the aim of resolving this but he admits he doesent care and my last resort has always been making WS confront OW regarding her character, you see some of you have got satisfaction from the NC letter, i never had an NC letter and NC is still not in place, WS never told OW he never loved her, he never told her he regrets being with her he has not spoken to her since he broke up with her and even then it was under the pretence that he cares about her but has to be there for his kids (not that he thinks what he was doing was wrong or that he cares about me one bit) This has always hurt me, the fact that they work together under the possible beleif that he loves her yet has to be there for the kids just kills me. So for those of you that have read his thread you are aware of horrid letter he sent her but this again can be justified by her as me writing it and just getting him to send it, i wanted a face to face confrontation, i wanted him to see what people are saying that she is a heartless homewrecking so and so and that she never cared about him in the hope that he would wake up and stop thinking for one minute that what he did was ok and to question his choices in the future, to allow him to feel the humiliation of being so stupid as to fall for the act that she put on and a million other reasons, I just want him to WAKE UP and appreciate what he has.

Anywya my warped way of thinking led to me asking him to immediately turn up at OW house and confront her, tell her he never loved her and show her he cares about me and not her and see her lack of care. So WS thought that best way was to approach her under the pretences that he is warning her to behave at the xmas party as i will be there. I got WS to tape the conversation for proof and protection in case she says he was phisically threatening her so he took secret recorder and this is the conversation that took place.

he knocks on her door and she answers

OW can you please come outside as i need to talk to you and i dont want your little girl to hear this, it wont take a minute.
OW goes outside and WS says. Right weather you are aware of this or not me and my wife are going to the xmas party, its nothing to do with you as we are entitled to be there however having experienced the disgusting stunts you and your friend have pulled the past year i am here to tell you that i will do anything to protect my wife, you and your friends will stay away from her you wont smirk snigger or even look in her direction, i love her very much and am prepared to retaliate should any of you hurt her in any way as she does not deserve it. I would like to confirm that you have received the email i sent you earlyer this year (copy of this email on WS thread) she says yes, then you are aware of how i feel about you, you are aware that i know what a wxxx you are and that you are so dirty you dont use condoms with anyone (WS says she looks at the floor at this point), I am aware of your past and who you really are and in the past i have kept quiet for the sake of my job but if you put one foot wrong at the Xmas party then i will expose you i will make your life hell i will make you loose your frinends and job as i have all the information you have told me about them when we were involved, I also beleive that you are aware by now that there where no feelings involved between us and i never loved you i love my wife very much and as stated before will protect her with all my might she is worth a million of you and deserves all the love and respect i have for her. do you understand? she replyed yes i had no intention of causing any trouble. WS walks away.

So have i lost my mind completely?? am i wrong to feel better for that?? WS told me that during this whole conversation OW had non care look on her face and the only time she reacted was when he mentioned her dirty habit of not using condoms with any of the men she sleeps with. I feel such releif that finally she has been told he does not love her, finally he is showing her he will protect his family and most of all he has betrayed her, she thought he was this sweet guy that she can play with and now she sees he will be brutal for the sake of his family and he does not care for her. WS is at work so will discuss this event when he comes home tonight. I dont know what else to say i cant be sorry about this as i have wanted this for the longest time. I wanted to hurt, humiliate and shame her and WS has achieved this.

Why would you be wrong to feel better for that? He basically did a NC letter, in person. You should be glad!

I think you should feel good about this. Not, "successfully recovered" good, but "another step" good.

Don't feel shame for honest feelings of progress. Don't feel too elated for steps along the way. Feel good, not great.

Remember, radical honesty means being radically honest with yourself and your own feelings as well.

Keep up the good work.

Very well said mfoss

Thanks cat moss and myop I dont feel elated at all i feel releif that more than anything that finally WS has done something i have been asking him to do from day one. Tell OW he never loved her and confirm what they did was a mistake, hes at home because he loves his family not out of duty.

I just don't get this at all. Are you saying that time that could have been spent productively on building your M was spent reading about OW? That seems like absolute madness to me. Did Steve OK this? Is this part of the homework assignment set for your H?





The following quotes are from yllanoitome's NC letter to OW.


Whilst I think this is one of the worst NC letters ever written - way too full of emotion and drama -, it was sent 3 months after D-day and was so full of intimate detail that she couldn't possibly have thought you wrote it alone. It also says a lot of the things that you now say you are so desperate to hear that you are willing to inititate contact with OW.

Your H did say that..


So are you still so hung up about it because you DID write the letter and therefore your H hasn't said the things quoted above?


Why would you want this when his contact with her at work hurts you so much? I don't understand why you would want to keep OW so central in your lives when she should by now be of complete insignificance?

You should be building your M and working on the homework Steve has set. Not dragging the skanky OW back into the drama of your M.

What you have done is dangerous to your M as you have potentially opened dialogue between your H and OW. It doesn't matter the content of the conversation, it matters that the conversation took place at all. It matters that the OW may now seek to say what she needs to say to you H at some point.

The contact keeps her as part of your M and she shouldn't have any place in your M 13 months out from D-Day.

I'm sorry but I just don't get the dynamic here. Us BS's have to want to move on from the trauam of our WS's A's in order to begin R. I don't see you wanting to move forward, I just see you being stuck and I know that the fact that your H still works with OW has something to do with you being stuck, so address that issue as a matter of urgency and don't add to it by initiating more contact yourself.

You ask a good question in your thread title "It's been a year. When will things get better?" The answer is when all contact ends and when you both commit to moving forward and applying MB principles in your M.

Good luck but I'm outta here.

Thanks SD, I dont expect everyone to understand, the letter WS sent was meant to be done in person but he lied to me told me he had confronted OW so i asked him to send his draft NC dialogue to OW under the title of "In case you didnt understand what i said to you in person" then 2 months later WS confesses that he never told WS face to face contents of letter as he is petrified of her turning around and dissing his manhood i was rightfully angry as OW could now see that letter could have possibly come from me when it didnt. Thats the reason why face to face information to her by WS is essential to me. Shortly after D Day WS sent OW text telling her to call her friends off FB and to leave me alone or he will retaliate, she took this text to the polie and told them it was from me when it came from his phone nothing to do with me so she keeps putting everything back on me when sometimes i havent been involved again this means that if WS tells her things in person she will have no doubt he means it and to back the hell off with the sunts in store that she has pulled with her gang of demented teenage friends.
The last thing i wanted was contact between them and i was phisically sick when i knew he was talking to her, i was 2 hours away at my mothers and he was over at her house doing the confrontation it wasnt easy, I needed HIM to eject her out of my head, he put her there by telling her he loved her, making love to her and betraying his family for her was i really so wrong to want to claim some of that back? as i first said i dont expect everyone to agree with me the best i can do is explain why i feel the way i feel.

I am stuck and thats because of the job situation and WS slow moving progress, I have done my end i have backed off calmed down cut out the LBs and worked on meeting his EN's, coaching with the harleys and reading SAA, if you have any suggestions as to anything else i can do please feel free to tell me.

"Good luck but I'm outta here." I am sorry you feel this way but at the end of the day i need people who care enough to stick with me through thick and thin so thanks for the support so far and good luck for your future i am sorry I couldnt fit into your idea of how I should behave.