I, like many, have been lurking for a few months. I am 45 and my WH is 43. We have 2 daughters; ages 23 and 16. To summarize: WH left me in May of 2011. Same speech, not happy, haven't been for a while, blah, blah, blah... It was 8 months after our youngest daughter had suffered a traumatic brain injury, so I naively thought that the stress of that, coupled with the financial burden of the added medical bills was what drove him over the edge. Unbeknownst to me, he was having an affair. I seriously had no idea. I actually kind of did a plan A for 5 months by doing The Love Dare. In October of that year, after our daughter was hospitalized for suicidal thoughts stemming from her injury, he came back and wanted to "try to work things out." Apparently, this was his cake eating/fence sitting time, though I still didn't have a CLUE that there was someone else. He was here until March of 2012, when I told him it felt like things were slipping back into the same old patterns and he replied, "Oh, you've noticed?" Now, I was a model wife during the time he was home. Okay, maybe more of a doormat... He has always had problems with Independent behavior and I let him. He came back in April, after I implemented a kind of Plan B (without knowing what it was, since I hadn't found this website.) I wouldn't speak to him, answer his texts, etc... Our oldest daughter handled all vital communication. After 2 weeks, he came back crying and telling me that "God opened his eyes." So, of course, I let him come back once again. 2 weeks later, I received an anonymous letter that read, "FYI your husband is only 'playing' family man. He has someone on the side." Of course, he denied it and got angry that I could think such a thing. The following week, I got a phone call from a payphone. A man asked for a woman by name. When I told him he had the wrong number, he said "_'Hoskank doesn't live there? Well, does WH?" When I said yes, he hung up. I confronted WH when he got home, he denied for several minutes and then came clean and told me that he broke it off. Crying and telling me how ashamed his deceased mother would be, blah blah... I was in shock. He begged me to let him stay. He'd "do whatever it takes" - counseling, anything. Weeks of trickle truths, etc.. His family, friends and co workers all knew and didn't tell me (that hurt!)I exposed to our friends, children, POSOW's ex husband, our pastor, my family.

We have done some counseling with our pastor, but WH has decided that he doesn't want to anymore. He has agreed to work the MB program, but not "enthusiastically." He won't put in the effort. i.e.- I have to read aloud, never suggests we read, doesn't want to talk about things. He just wants to "move on." I guess what I'm asking is how should I proceed? He thinks reading Surviving an Affair and His Needs Her Needs is a huge "Love Buster." Help!

Welcome to MB, FE. I am sorry to hear of these events in your marriage.

No, you shouldn't "move on" and accept him back. Dr Harley is clear that a WH who does not come back on his knees, cap in hand, grovelling that he is sorry and regrets hurting his wife is not serious and should be shown the door. Your H's lack of interest and remorse is a false recovery in the making - in fact one is probably under way, right now. Dr Harley's expectations for an unfaithful man are different from those for a woman, so please be aware of this.

I cannot find a reference for you now as I must leave, but there are several wonderful helpers here and somebody will show you where Dr H has written this.

It's very early for this board and that is why you have had no responses for a few hours. The USA will wake up soon and you'll have much more help shortly. Hang in there.

Welcome to MB and sorry that you are here.

How did your WH meet OW? Do you have snooping techniques in place to ensure NC(is there NC)? Who have YOU told about your WH's affair? Do your children know? What is their relationship like with their father?

Have you read SAA? Have you read all of the information on this site? If you click on the Newly Betrayed link i my siggy, it will help guide you through the site.

Your WH seems to want to use MB to put you in your place. Having an affair is one of the biggest Love Busters he can commit, and he is going to say that reading DrH's books are an LB? He is obviously NOT serious. DrH suggests that a BW not attempt recovery with a WH that is not 100% remorseful. Your WH doesn't sound that way to me.

Have you thought about calling the coaching center? Which of DrH's books have you read?

Have you exposed this? Is OW married?

Here's some good reading.
Can't we just Forgive and Forget #1
Steps to Recover From An Affair

Hi FE, welcome to Marriage Builders. Has your husband ended his affair? Who is the OW and is she married?

Nothing that you do will be of any effect until the affair is over. It doesn't sound like it is over, hence your husbands reluctance to do anything.

Has he ended ALL contact with the OW? ARe you snooping to see what he is doing?

From reading this, it sounds like you have set the bar very low, which is why your husband is not taking this seriously.

Thank you all for your responses.

Scotland - They met because they both worked at the same marina, just not for the same company. She no longer works there, but it is a couple of miles from where she lives. This marina is in the town that my WH grew up in, where his father still lives, etc... He has never really cleaved from that area or his father. His father has had several affairs with married women. He says he ended it when he came back the last time. This has been confirmed by several people in the area. He apparently tried to end it when he came back in Oct, but they "remained friends." I didn't know about it at the time. He did tell me this. I am going to look into a PI today. I may have a friend that will help me financially with that, since we are in financial dire straights due to his affair and the huge pile of medical bills. I have no income right now. I have read SAA and HNHN for parents. I have read most everything on this site, and realize that I didn't go about this the right way. DDAy happened before I found this site.

BrainHurts- I have exposed this to all of our friends and family, our children, pastor and the OW's ex(?) husband. She left her husband for my husband. WH confirmed this. I have read the links you provided, but I'm going to go back and read them again.

MelodyLane- I have snooped to the best of my ability. WH is a mechanic and found the GPS that son in law installed on his car. He has a work vehicle that he drives during the day. It is a company vehicle and I have no access to it. He doesn't bring it home. We have pay as you go phones- not smart phones. I go through his phone any chance I get, but he had a prepaid "affair phone" when he was with her, that he supposedly smashed (according to FIL) in front of her when he broke it off. I am going to look into a PI, hopefully today. In the beginning, he was willing to do "whatever it took to be forgiven and work on our marriage." But, honestly, he doesn't "get it" yet. It has just been the last few weeks that he has been resistant to doing any of the work, even though the other night, I told him, "Either you are all in or you are out," to which he immediately replied, "Oh, I'm in!" I appreciate your input,MelodyLane, because I feel that you don't mess around, and I need to be pushed. Even though, I have done everything wrong so far, I will do anything that you advise.

Melody, I visited the PI site that you recommended on Operate Investigate and am waiting for quotes.

And you all were right!!He left me tonight.....Again! Tried to tell me that he couldn't live with the "dark cloud" hanging over his head. When I told him that I knew that he was back in contact with her, he did admit to me that they have been talking. He called her from a payphone... What a peach. But, he still insisted that he wasn't leaving for her. PLEASE! I told him to stop fooling himself because he wasn't fooling me. I was calm, but firm, and preceded to tell him that he will be giving up everything. Then got his suitcase and told him to pack what he needed and that someone would contact him and let him know when and where he could pick up the rest of his stuff. I opened the door for him and said, "Take one last look, because once you walk out that door, you will never see or hear from me again." Both of my daughters texted him and told him they no longer want contact either. Guess it's time to find an attorney....

Yes.
File for divorce since he is refusing to end his affair and be a good husband.

File for child support Monday morning. Call your local child support enforcement agency to do so. Tell them he has abandoned the family.

Close any joint credit cards. NOW

Call all pension funds. Tell them divorce is in progress.

Call your bank. Place a hold on joint accounts.

Prepare a plan B letter
Find an intermediary (as detailed in SAA book)

Thank you for the list. I REALLY appreciate it. I know what I need to do, but the bank stuff, I didn't think about. I don't know who to use as an intermediary. I can't use my oldest daughter this time. She refuses to talk to him. I was thinking that maybe I could get a court appointed mediator? I'm upset and not thinking too clearly right now, but I did expect it.

The court mediator will not be an IM.
They don't do that.

It is inappropriate to use your daughter as an IM, as it can damage the father daughter relationship

I would call all of the joint credit card companies tonight and report the card stolen.
And ATM accounts.
Spouses sometimes empty accounts when they leave Don't become a victim

We don't have any credit cards, just a bank/ATM card. Should I report his stolen? Or put a hold on it?

The Love Dare you did basically is plan A.
The problem with The Love Dare is that it won't kill an affair. And marital recovery cannot begin until an active affair is dead and the wayward is no longer in withdrawal from the affair.

I also did the Love Dare in my marriage, prior to Reading SAA book. I immediately change course after reading SAA. I encourage you to stick strictly to MB during this time. The Fireproof movie has a great ending and shows many basic concepts but the people that made it don't understand how affairs work. Dr Harley is a national expert in this field.

I assume you have read Surviving An Affair? So you understand how affairs work.

Finding an IM needs to be your priority now. Can you ask someone (perhaps an elder in your church ) to be an IM?

Yes you should place a hold/ report stolen any JOINT ATM account cards

Yes, I have just read SAA. I know how it works. The problem that I have with killing the affair is exposure. I have exposed to all family and friends, pastor, and POSOW's husband. (He just contacted me and thanked me for the info and told me that he was going to tell their kids). ALL of WH's family and friends KNEW about the affair and didn't have any influence on him. His father admitted to me that "the few times she spent the night, I didn't like it." Yes, his words. WH does not have a facebook account, and she has blocked my daughters and I. Isn't that the way you kill the affair? Exposure?

Please forgive my ignorance, but if I put a hold on our joint ATM cards, does that mean that I can't use it either?

I will ask someone from my church to act as an intermediary. Good idea. Thank you.

Oh and his employer and co workers knew as well. Interestingly enough, none of them can stand her. She is trash, but he told me that he didn't care...

I did Love Dare, too, for 4 months sfter D-day. Did not know about MB principles at that time, but plan A was my life.

Exposure needs to include all of OW's family and friends, not just your WH's and OWH's.

Have you reported OW/WH to their bosses for sexual harrassment, since this is an affair that started in the workplace?

It's worth a shot. Your marriage is more important than his job in the long run.

Welcome to MB
Lots of help here and stick around and read, your not alone
Will read what you have posted tomorrow.
Is this your main thread ?

IAINTREADYTOQUIT- I am hoping to get info to expose to POSOW's parents and friends from her BH. WH works for a small company It's just him, his boss and 2 other employees. They all knew about the affair. While none of them actually condoned it, they did nothing to stop it.

ConstantProcess- Thank you. Yes this is my main thread.

Yes. If you report the ATM cards stolen and place an account hold you will be unable to use them also. Some spouses choose to withdraw as much money as they can because the account will be empty anyway. It's usually a race to see who gets to the bank first.

It sounds like you've exposed good. Unfortunately, some families don't care. When I exposed to OM family and friends I received some support, and even more attacks on me in reply messages! Just take it with a grain of salt.

You don't want to freeze the accounts. Take out all the money except for just enough to keep those accounts open. Put the money in another bank in an account that is in only your name.

See my previous post.

I have blocked his ATM card. Not mine. I will be at the bank first thing Monday AM to withdraw the little bit of money we have left.

I spoke to her husband at length this morning. The POSOW is a thief and has a proven track record as a gold digger. She left her first husband crying domestic abuse for this one. She has been cheating on him with MANY men over the past 18 years, but he never had concrete evidence. She has sucked him dry. To the tune of $250,000. He is broke and has 2 kids to raise. I filled in the blanks for him. He is going to expose to her friends and family. She has claimed domestic abuse against him, too, yet she LEFT her 2 kids with him... Blows my mind the crap that waywards believe.

I am getting references for a good Pit Bull attorney. I will get that ball rolling tomorrow AM, too.

The charges for domestic abuse were apparently dropped. He was investigated by social services and they found him to be a good, competent father...

FE, can your WH just call the bank and have his card "un"blocked? I'm curious about this and would like to know, for advising posters in the future.

Also can you send OWH here? We can help him also.

Good job on exposure.

Where is your WH staying right now? Tell your DDs good job on telling their wayward father how they felt.

MB- He can't have it unblocked because they are issuing a new one and it's being sent to my house in 7 days.

I will put a hold on the mail for a week. He doesn't know how to retrieve mail from the PO...

BrainHurts- I will tell OWH about the website the next time we talk.

Thank you. I tried.

I thought he was staying with his father, but about 45 minutes ago, WH and POSOW pulled into the driveway to pick up his classic car. They thought that I would be at church. When they saw my car in the driveway, they turned around and are probably staking out the house. Or, they went back to the pig sty (she rents a room from an old man near WH's work.)

Oh, and I will tell my daughters good job. They are amazing young women.

So how was your Plan A?

Do you have this? How to Plan B Correctly

Will you be able to get another IM other than your DD?

Do you have a lawyer yet?

Very common false allegation made during divorce.
My ex wife accused me of rape, abuse etc and they were all unfounded

No. Once a card is reported stolen a new card is issued.
The old one is gone

My plan A went on for WAYYYY too long. The past year. It was stellar, as far as the way I acted toward him. I was anyone's dream spouse, but honestly, I was always too good of a spouse.

I do know how to Plan B correctly. I do not have an attorney, but my brother is getting me the name of a good one and helping me with the fees. I haven't written the Plan B letter yet or the addendum with a list of my requirements. It is most important for my daughter and I to be protected financially, right now. He is a complete alien right now.

I do have another IM.

Any other suggestions?

Write your plan B letter today and post for review.
Copy the one in SAA book

Here is my Plan B letter. I basically used the one posted on the sample letter thread, but tweaked things pertinent to our situation. Any suggestions? Going to work on my addendum containing my list of requirements. Will post that when I'm done.




Dear Husband,

This is a difficult letter for me to write, one that I have been mentally working on for weeks now. I have written this letter with the true love that only a wife can have for a husband. Please read every word I have written, for it is from the heart.

I would like to acknowledge and apologize for my part in the demise of our marriage. I neglected your needs, and failed to give you what you needed many times. I'm sure this helped create a voice in our marriage that allowed your affair to happen. I have said this before, and I want to say it again: I want to do whatever I can to put our marriage back together in a mutually satisfying way. I feel that I have been learning ways to be the type of woman that I hope you would be proud to call your wife, as I have so many times felt pride in calling you my husband. I so want to be able to put the past behind us, and build a better life together for us and the children.

The past four months have been a difficult passage of time for me, the most emotionally traumatic in my life. We seemed to start recovery in the beginning, only to slip and fail again. I am still feeling the hurt and pain when I didn't know where you were, or when you'd be home. We have somehow misplaced our foundation of trust and respect. But lately God has given me a strength that I never knew I possessed. I have grown and matured more as a Christian than I have in my entire lifetime. Whereas in the past I endured the hurt and pain, I now see that it is soon to drain my love for you. Until you can truthfully and honestly return home and work with me on rebuilding our marriage, I will be having no communication with you, and I will not be seeing you. This is not to punish you, it is to protect my feelings for you and our chances at reconciliation. If we continue as we are now, there would be nothing left.

I ask that you please respect my decision to separate in this way. Please feel free to call the kids at any time and set up visits. Marjon has agreed to act as an intermediary between us. She will handle any pertinent information that you need to know.

I will be seeking counsel on how to best protect the Emilee financially, specifically child support and how to set that up.

I want us to be a team, and restore our marriage together. I want you to know that no matter how bad the past was, no matter how ugly, we can get past it. With God's help, our true healing can begin. Look inside yourself and find the strength we will need to do this.

I want to grow old with you. I loved you more than life itself while we were together, and I continue to do so as I write this. When you find yourself ready and willing to truly and fully commit to our family, willing to work on a plan for our recovery, and agree to follow my list of requirements for returning home, I will be ready and willing to discuss our future.

God be with you, my love.

Your loving wife,
Me

Okay Here's my list of requirements: (borrowed from SexyMamaBear with a few changes.) Thoughts?


REQUIREMENTS TO COMING HOME
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Humility

Remorse

Surrender emotionally before me and spiritually before God

Godly sorrow (not fleshly sorrow) (Godly: sorry that I ever had the A & did this to our family. Fleshly: sorry I hurt you)

Authentic repentance

Own your choices and the consequences they caused (to yourself, me, children, extended family, friends, etc.)

Apology for the A and your hurtful actions before and after

Confession & apology to children

Confession to extended family & certain close friends that have confronted him

Change jobs

Accountability forever to 2 men that I choose

Attend church again

No Contact Letter

Agree to work the Marriage Builders Program

Complete radical honesty about our entire history together

15+ hours together weekly

Pray with me daily

Agree to never go back to the Deale/Shadyside area without me.

I think your plan b letter contains too much irrelevant info.
Do you have a copy of SAA?
I would copy the letter in that book and change the names

And the conditions from sexy momma bear I don't know anything about.
Dr Harley doesn't tell waywards to spiritually surrender to God.

A person relationship with God is between them and doesn't involve you.

I would encourage you to stick to the SAA book and the recovery in there.

Okay. I will adapt it from the book. Thanks. Should my IM contact him with her contact info before he gets it?

Regarding the classic car, that is very likely half yours and you don't want him selling it (yet). I'd put the keys up somewhere safe--a relative's house, a safe deposit box, whatever you can think of.

For your letter, here are my thoughts--their value being what you paid for them

No. Give the IM contact info in the letter and let him figure out how to contact her.

[quote=Northwood8900]Regarding the classic car, that is very likely half yours and you don't want him selling it (yet). I'd put the keys up somewhere safe--a relative's house, a safe deposit box, whatever you can think of.



Too late. He came to get it last night. He had the only set of keys....

Thank you for the recommendations. I like them. Will do. Should I mail it?

He's been planning this... I just went to get the boat keys, so that he wouldn't take the boat, and they are gone. Can't even get an appointment with an attorney until next Monday... What should I be doing until then. Starting to stress...

Have you documented everything?

Read this.
DOCUMENT DOCUMENT DOCUMENT

While it'd have been nice to have the keys, the property still exists so you're probably fine. Hell, it's kind of hard to hide a car and a boat. They'll show up.

An attorney can advise on what to do when your WH tries to hide assets. I'm sure they've seen all the tricks, so try not to stress out too much. I imagine you'll feel a little better once you get a plan together legally/financially.

Either mail the letter or give it to him on his way out the door.

Did you get the bank finances squared away...any direct deposits sent to a new account in a new bank? Passwords changed for any banking/IRA/401(k) online logins? A new account at a different bank is important. There's a thread here where a BW opened a separate account at a bank, only to have them withdraw from it to fund the joint account that her WH bounced.

ah, FE, i'm sorry to read your most recent post. the best thing you can do, as recommended above, is protect yourself legally and financially. document everything, and use a paper/pen book to do it (with dates, etc).

don't panic too much. your lawyer will be able to work out the finances; you'd be surprised (or maybe not) how often that kinda thing happens.

get going on your to-do list, starting with the pb letter & im.

and most importantly, take care of yourself. the biggest battle of your life is coming up (and if you think the very long plan a was hard [i did that too], wait for what comes next! keep your eyes on the prize. you can only battle when you are kept well.

hang in there lady. give us a post soon w/an update where you are with your list.

You can post it here

And yes, the relationship with God is personal, unless you enjoyed being hung on the cross?

Many of us have experienced that, and it stinks

Yes I have been documenting everything. Thank you.

I have documented everything. I have written my plan b letter. A friend will hand deliver it to him today at work. I do have a new IM in place. Bank business is taken care of. (Withdrew the little amount of money left and opened an account at another bank). Spoke to my daughters Principal and counselor today to make them aware of the situation. (She has been a complete mess and has learning issues stemming from her brain injury.)

How horrible is "what's to come," Letty? I have lost so much weight already.

Thank you for your response.

A best practice, recommended for property insurance is to videotape every valuable in your house in case of loss. That way you have everything documented.
This could also be used in divorce. Walk around with a video recorder and record everything of value.

ConstantProcess- Thank you for the reminder. It is personal, but I do know that I am not strong enough to handle this without my Lord.

Got a text message from WH's brother last night. He wants to call me today. Apparently, he is really upset at the turn of events. He wanted to make sure that I know that he was unable to influence WH, and let me know what he knows. Should I speak with him? Or should I tell him that I can't hear anything that would add to the pain that I am already enduring?

Thank you. I will have my SIL do that today, since I don't have a video recorder.

I would speak to the brother in law.
Tell him you want to save your marriage and ask if he can help persuade your husband to end his affair.

I don't see anything wrong with talking to him, but if you want to sidestep it for a bit you could always just text back "Thanks so much for your continued support. It means a lot and we appreciate your getting involved for us. Got to run, I'll catch up with you later."

FE, I just read your thtread and wanted to tell you how incredibly awesome you are! You listened to the posters, you executed quickly and you are in control of the situation. I can't believe how refreshing it is to see a poster that isn't butt-dragging and making excuses.

Way to go, girl!

~RQ

Yes. She is doing a great job.

Thank you Rocketqueen and HDW. I appreciate the kind words and all of the advice.

Perhaps you can go "na na na na" to some of the boys here

No kidding! It usually takes dozens of pages in a thread to get a betrayed spouse to expose and say enough is enough.

Great job!

.....maybe.

Thank you.

Maritalbliss, I'm not sure about a bank card, but my WXW and I had joint credit cards. I called the bank and put hers on hold. A few days later she charged $5,000 for her lawyer's retainer fee to the card.

I called the bank when I found out and they said, "What, you didn't cut the card up?"

We call it the adultery diet/divorce diet. 20 lbs in a month is not uncommon. In fact, it's par for the course.

I would still cancel any joint bank accounts or get your name removed from them asap. My XH quit his job, went into hiding w/his GF in our new motorhome and withdrew thousands of dollars from the bank that we didn't even have in there! (I hadn't known you could do that but apparently if you have overdraft protection you can). It all happened so fast! I got stuck paying all of our joint debts and never saw our motorhome or car or motorcycle again.

It all depends on how ruthless he is...you wouldn't think it of your husband, but they can sure surprise you! My lawyer seemed to be naive...to this day I still don't have a mailing address for XH and it's been four years!

BTW, stellar job so far!

Yeah I get you, and within myself there has always been that presence also, that need to look up beyond my humanity for answers to life's questions and guidance.

Its not very popular either, but I have found that conscience to be more dependable than people and all the philosophy that the wisest can muster in their education. Im sure you know what I mean.

At the end of the day That authority from above is the only one I can draw peace from.

Yes in its purest form it is a gut punch..I remember it when my first wife left me when we had been together 4 years at 22, had a son who was 2, and she just had to "party, you work to hard!!" I was also not a cruel and abusive young man, and even her kind and gentle Mom thought i was doing everything I could and was upset with her

I remember the feeling and the emptiness of my stomach as I lost that wieght also in 30 days. Went from muscular 200 lbs down to 170 lbs in about 4 weeks as I also was working two jobs..

It truly is an epidemic that has been around for ages, that we think we are immune too. You are not alone in this.

I never lost weight. But I lost sleep.
I encourage you to visit your family doctor and explain what is going on. They can help prescribe medication for any sleep or anxiety problems

Thank you all for your responses. I definitely get the loss of weight and loss of sleep thing. I did go to my doctor and he prescribed sleeping pills, but I don't like the way they make me feel.

As far as eating goes, it's hard to eat when you feel like you have a huge pit in your stomach all of the time, but I have been making myself get down what I can manage- My DD16 is having difficulty with eating and sleeping, so I have to lead by example. We have an appointment for her to see the doctor tomorrow.

I DO want to say that as scary as it is to expose, it is DEFINITELY the right thing to do. I have heard from several of family members (his side) that are blown away by this, and have thrown there support behind me. I also heard from one of his co- workers last night. It felt really good sharing the truth with him. He was just shocked at the depths of deceit. This is the co-worker whose wedding WH brought POSOW to back in November, when I thought he "couldn't bring anyone to the wedding" because he had already responded to say one person would be attending.

Exposure is the very best thing that you can do. I knew that everyone at WH's work and in that area knew about the affair. What I didn't realize when I first posted, is that they only knew his side of the story- the one where he vilified me and our kids and made them think we were separated, etc... The naked truth is always better than the best dressed lie.

*their* support. Sorry, too early to think straight...

To whomever posted the "Midlife for Dummies" post- Thank you. It was spot on. I printed it out and showed several family members and friends. They thought I was the one who wrote that...

Also, WH had bought himself a Harley with the money from his 401k back in June. He has been keeping it at his father's house since he doesn't have his motorcycle license. I thought that he had taken the keys and title, but I found them yesterday! *happy dance!* I put them in a safety deposit box that is in my name only.

Absolutely!

Have you delivered your plan b letter to him?

Yes. It was delivered today.

FE, send a copy of it to the OW as well with a note that you are fighting for your marriage. This is mentioned in the SAA book.

Will do that today! Thank you Rocketqueen!

Besides letting OW know that you aren't just going to fade away, it may also be something that they can argue and get in a fight over.

I just want to say thank you so much to all of you for the advice! It's amazing to me that a bunch of people that don't know you, but are connected by a common thread, are willing to take the time to help others.

Thank you all from the bottom of my heart!


Marriage Builders rocks!

You don't know how refreshing it is to actually see someone stand up for what's right in their marriage.

You see the other threads where it's like pulling teeth to get someone to do something that seems so obvious. People get paralyzed and sit in shock, but once they stand up they, inevitably, come back and say it was the best thing they ever did.

Been there, done that, got the lousy t-shirt.

You're giving your kids someone to be proud of, that's for sure.

x2

Well, I just want to say that WH contacted my IM yesterday and has agreed to my requirements for coming home. He wanted to set up a time to come talk to me. He came over last night. He has already put in his 2 weeks notice at work and has made arrangements with a friend of ours from church to work with him those last two weeks (for accountability).

He also wrote the No contact letter, which I approved and will mail today.

He was definitely "on his knees with his hat in his hands" - very sincerely apologizing and sobbing like never before. He apologized to both daughters, SIL, and IM. He told me that he wants to apologize to our pastor and everyone that has been affected by his actions.

He asked to move back home. He WANTS to tell me everything about the affair. We have scheduled a night this weekend, so that we can be alone.

He is excited to start working the MB program with me and has offered to read SAA to me. (This has never happened- he hates to read.)

I know that we have a long road yet, but He is 100% on board. He even agreed to a polygraph...

Will update more later.

This is GREAT news, FE! I'm so happy for you. Keep us updated.

~RQ

WOW!! What a beautiful change of heart! Yeah, you have a long road, BUT, the great thing is that it can't be walked together if it is only you, and he wants to go on this journey with you to recover your marriage!!! Wonderful news!!

What were the conditions you gave him in your PBL? Has he met them all?

If possible Dr Harley recommends a vacation following an affair.
Can you and your husband go on a week vacation?

Once again, Exposure, followed by Plan A, and followed by Plan B, if necessary, works. Excellent work, FE!

I second HDW's suggestion to take a vacation. After the two weeks he has left at his job are up, he should be over his post-affair depression.

Well depression can last up to 6 months

How long is normal for the phase of sleeping all day, not eating, etc.? I was under the impression 3 days to a week.

In SAA, Dr Harley states that a sudden reappearance of depression is usually a sign of continued contact with the OP.

Great news FE, just be aware of a possible bouncing ball effect, where he second guesses himself again.

But by no means let that take away from the joy you must be feeling right now, and his coming home where he belongs

Its a long road back but it is worth it for both of you together. Its doable

[quote

What were the conditions you gave him in your PBL? Has he met them all?[/quote]

REQUIREMENTS TO COMING HOME
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Humility

Remorse

Surrender emotionally before me and spiritually before God

Godly sorrow (not fleshly sorrow) (Godly: sorry that I ever had the A & did this to our family. Fleshly: sorry I hurt you)

Authentic repentance

Own your choices and the consequences they caused (to yourself, me, children, extended family, friends, etc.)

Apology for the A and your hurtful actions before and after

Confession & apology to children

Confession to extended family & certain close friends that have confronted him

Change jobs

Accountability forever to 2 men that I choose

Attend church again

No Contact Letter

Agree to work the Marriage Builders Program

Complete radical honesty about our entire history together

15+ hours together weekly

Pray with me daily

Agree to never go back to the Deale/Shadyside area without me.


Yes, he has.
_________________________

Now you need to follow the Recovery section in SAA book.
Dr Harley recommends a vacation after an affair.
Can you go on a vacation?

Thank you CP. I will. It is different this time. I am sure you have heard that a 100 times before. He is acting completely out of character for him. Last time, I could tell that he was only telling me what he thought I wanted to hear. This time, it's his words. I don't know how to explain it. He even wants to come on here and talk to you all. He doesn't use computers- doesn't know how.


I heard everything this weekend (full disclosure) It was hard to hear, but I am going to be okay. I knew I didn"t know the whole truth before, but now I do.




Thank you all for the suggestion to go away. We may be going to the mountains next week.


I have much more to tell you all, but I have an 80th birthday party to attend.

Will update you on POSOW's latest despicable act, and FIL and BIL's reaction to all of this.

Oh posow will try everything now to wrangle him.


Have a great time at the party and hope to hear from you soon

HDW- We are leaving today for the mountains until Sunday. Thank you for all of your help so far.

CP- The party was very nice. Thank you.

The POSOW sent our older daughter a very nasty FB message about all of the places that they had sex in our house (luckily for me, WH disclosed all of the info to me prior to this). That was only some of it. She got very ugly in the message. It was very upsetting for our DD to read. This upset WH beyond words that she's trying to go through our kids. He is disgusted with her. She has been calling FIL daily, making stuff up about me... She has been driving through the marina where WH works looking for him each day. Do they ever go away?

Will let you know how the week goes when we get back.

Wow, she is a piece of work! Glad you are getting away for a bit. I would consider filing a restraining order against her based on her harassment.

~RQ

Keep the email ;
I would send her a No Trespass letter. Have the Sheriff Steve her with it. It may scare her off

Ditto, get the legal beagles advice, and if H has issued a NC letter, bring a copy to the lawyers attention also, that she has been personally served already, and what her response has been is harassment

She needs to get a life and move on too, you will be doing her a favor with a swift kick in the behind, via the law if nessesary, and it seems it is nessesary

Yeah, I wouldn't waste any time hoping she'll go away.

A swift (legal) response would be in order.

File a restraining order.

HDW- Is a no trespass letter the same thing as a restraining order?

It might be different from state to state. Here in NY, there has to be a police complaint and a charge filed in order to get an order of protection. The aggravated harassment (repeated contact) is something the police will investigate.With proof they can charge with AH and then you can get the OOP.

No. A No Trespass letter is served on the individual and is kept on file. Retail stores often do this with shoplifters. That way if the shoplifter returns store security can show the police the individual was duly served and notified future trespass will result in arrest.

You can have the County Sheriff serve the letter of No Trespass and that may be enough to scare her off with no cost to you.

Here is a sample no trespass letter from a polie department :

http://www.wpd.org/images/Tresspass_notice.doc

Thanks for the advice everyone. We are going to file a retraining order. She is getting ugly and we don't need her crap right now.

Our trip was really nice. We were able to spend a lot of quality time together. My brother and his wife have a beautiful stone house in the mountains of WV. It's like a very private mountain resort. We were able to just hang out, relax and spend lots of time outdoors without life getting in the way. It was much needed.

WH went back to work today to start his last 2 weeks. Unfortunately, the friend from church who was going to be working with him had a death in his family and won't be able to start until Wednesday. This has made me have a nervous stomach. I wanted to go (and he wanted me there, too), but our DD16 had doctor's appointments this morning for ongoing problems stemming from her TBI. Then she has a half day tomorrow because of parent - teacher conferences. So, today and tomorrow are going to be hard on me.

We plan on starting SAA again tonight. He is excited about reading it and starting the program. I'm hoping that a few of the guys on here that are FWHs will get on his thread and advise him when he starts one.

I am a little overwhelmed by all of the things that we need to do in addition to all of the normal life things. Such as: selling the boat, antique car, and getting the house ready to put on the market. Any advice on handling everything without losing your mind?

Thank you. I will check out that link now.

Try to stay organized.
Reach out to your church family for support.

Okay. Thank you HDW.

I have another question. How do I handle all of this with DD16? She is the one that suffered the TBI and had total memory loss. She has had a hard time trusting anyone since her injury. She is really upset about all of this. This is the 3rd time that he left and came back (but the first time since I knew of the A).

I have tried to explain to her that we are starting the MB program, and that things are different this time around. She thinks that I am just being a doormat again and that things will go back to the way they were before. She said that she is mad at me because I look at WH "all googly-eyed," and that I shouldn't be in love with him. Well, I can't help the fact that I am in love with him. I am not letting him walk all over me, but I am nurturing by nature. He doesn't expect it, I just do it.

WH told her (and me) that he knows he has to prove himself to her, and that he knows it has to be actions, not words. Which considering she WON'T talk to him about anything that isn't benign chit chat, is good, right?

It is just hard on me because she lets me know how she feels, and it all falls on me.

My oldest is seven and believes in the Tooth Fairy so my "advice" is probably worth what you paid for it, but have they (DD16 and H) talked about this? I'd almost say she just needs to get it all out, in whatever form that may be--crying, yelling, screaming, whatever--and have him just sit there, listen and take it in.

Yes, he needs to not only acknowledge but apologize to her...it hurts kids' faith too.

Talk is...talk. Your DD knows that. She's looking for action. Show her. Don't tell her.

Thank you Rocketqueen. I will check the procedure for my state.

Northwood, kaycstamper and maritalbliss-

Thank you for your responses.

He has confessed and apologized to both DDs. DD23 has no problem expressing herself and has told him her feelings about everything. DD16, on the other hand, just started sobbing and flew into his arms, hugging him and telling him that she loved him. WH has tried to talk to her a few times since - he can sense her anger, but she clams up.

MB- are there any specific actions that you suggest we try? I know I sound like an idiot, but I am still quite overwhelmed by it all...

Someone already told you.
Words are words.
Actions are actions.

They will be watching for a change in behavior.
That's up to him, not you

I understand that and so does WH. I guess what I am asking is how should I respond with actions? When she starts "venting" to me about WH, I usually respond, "You need to talk to your father about this. This is between you and him." or something along those lines. She is angry with me, because I took him back.

Well then she is addressing your actions. So she deserves an answer why you took him back.
You may want to explain that you are following an Affair Recovery Program. This can be an important life lesson for her

You might try, instead, "Let's go talk with your father about this." With the three of you in the room, you can "start" the meeting, so to speak, by announcing that DD has a concern, but leave it up to him to conduct it.

NW, great idea! She needs to know you care, you are listening to her, but it will be up to him to produce the actions. You can tell her you have a plan for your marriage, and agree that you too do not want the old marriage and understand her concerns.

I have told her exactly that. I guess she will be frustrated with me until HE proves to her that he is serious, through his actions. She is typically not disrespectful, but this has turned her into a real eye-roller...

Thank you all for the advice.

NW and kaycstamper- I will try that approach when she vents. I have tried something similar, but have stayed in the room. That just makes her mad. Even though WH is the one trying to talk to her, she just glares at me and tells him, "I'm fine."

"I'm fine". That statement is made by children of alcoholics. It's probably the most common statement they make.
The truth is your husband has behaved like a jerk. An inconsiderate selfish jerk and the daughter is mad.

I didn't realize that was a common statement... wow. And you are correct, WH did behave like an inconsiderate, selfish jerk. DD has always had difficulty sharing her feelings. Especially with him. He's always been "fun dad" to her. Whenever she had something serious on her mind, she would come to me.

Just last night, for instance, she said that she was "still mad." When I asked her if she was mad at me, she said she was mad at both of us. When I asked her why she was mad at me, she replied, "because." I told her that was not a reason, and that I couldn't talk with or listen to her about what's bothering her if she didn't tell me what it was. She said that she couldn't tell me, because I would, "tell dad, since you tell each other everything now." I told her that if it was an issue between her and I, that it can stay between us, but if it involved WH that she needed to address that with him, and that I would help her relate to him the things that were bothering her if she wanted me to. I explained to her that when she doesn't share how she is feeling, it's like me grounding her, and when she asked why, I would just tell her, "because." It wouldn't be fair, since she would have no idea what she'd done to be grounded. Not sure if that was a good analogy or not... She never did talk to us, because we were invited to DD23's house for dinner, and she fell asleep on the way home.

Oh and I did reiterate that we were doing an Affair Recovery program, and the response I got was, "yeah, yeah, I know."

She may have reasons for not wanting him around.
Typically children want their parents to be together.
It is very common for children of divorce to have reunion fantasies well into adulthood.

Dr Harley addresses a call with a similar situation on his Radio Show. He encouraged the mother to ask the child why she didnt like the father.

Thank you. I will ask her that. I have to pick her up early from school today for a doctor's appointment. This will give us some time alone in the car to talk. Hopefully, she will open up to me.

Well, that went over like a led balloon...

The only thing she said was that she would be happier if we were divorced. I just don't even know what to do or say anymore. I'm so stressed.

I'm also stressed because my FIL keeps talking to the POSOW, and then telling me and WH what she has said to him. He is a stubborn, selfish man that you CANNOT reason with. Both WH and I have told him that we don't want to know ANYTHING POSOW has to say, and that if she is bothering him so much, he should file a restraining order against her. Thoughts on this?

I'd tell him that, while you understand his frustration and really appreciate his support during all of this, hearing any news on POSOW is not helping your situation and to please refrain from even speaking of the subject with you. Add that y'all will have to quit talking to him completely if he continues to report on her comings and goings. Since none of you want that to happen, you're sure that he understands how painful this is and will no longer speak of her to you or your husband.

You and H should be the one saying that, by the way. Not just you.

She needs time to process these feelings and learn to trust your H again. It's not going to happen overnight, that's for sure.

You will need to cut off contact with your FIL, although before doing so, explain he can either lose all contact with you (and presumably DD16), or he can choose to stop talking to you about POSOW.

You are both right. I just hope FIL will listen. I know that this will be hard for WH. FIL is the only parent that we have left between us. Unfortunately, he has a bit if a big mouth. He thinks he's being helpful, but he divulges info to POSOW about us, as well... I just wish we could move out of state.

It is difficult to establish personal boundaries with relatives but important

I refuse to talk to my brother about my marriage or my wife at this point in time, other than "surface" stuff.

For a while, I could not talk to my mother about it.

I don't talk to my in-laws about any of this either.

None of them are professionals or experts anyway.

Thank you for your responses HDW and Qoheleth.

I understand this. I think WH does, too. I think that it will be harder on him than on me, since it is his father.

Are there any FWHs out there that have had to do this with a parent? Just wondering if there are any who could give WH some advice on it.

Is it normal, as a BS, to occasionally feel that you may not want to work on recovering your marriage even when you are following the MB program? We are reading SAA together and discussing it, avoiding Love Busters, spending 15-20 hours of UA time per week, have done the EN questionnaire, and plan on doing the RA Inventory tonight.

Sometimes, I just feel like there is so much hurt, that I don't know if I want to live the rest of my life with it. And that I am so tired of trying so hard for so long. Do these feelings ever go away?

Yes, your feelings are normal, and yes they can go away as you work on recovery and your needs begin to be met. The fulfilling life begins to replace the hurt.

Dr Harley has said that he has callers that have been through great horrors in life - but they felt adultery to be the worst of all.

It's the worst act a person can do in a marriage.

And even God, who designed marriage for life, allowed divorce in cases of adultery.

Thank you for your responses kaycstamper and HDW.

I have been reading some of the other threads on resentment. I can relate. I have been very angry lately. I do not express this anger to WH, as I know it is a huge LB. But, when I start getting the images, etc.., I have an extremely hard time redirecting them. Then I start feeling like I don't need this in my life. This almost always happens when WH is at work, although there are occasionally dreams that I have, which just make me wake up angry. When WH is with me, I do okay at handling thoughts and images.

Also, as a Christian, I am having a really hard time dealing with the utter hatred that I feel towards the OW. I do realize that I am letting her live in my head rent free, but I cannot seem to kick her out. I want to hurt her for hurting me. I know that WH was to blame as well- it's not as if she kidnapped and drugged him- but I have a harder time dealing with my feelings towards her.

Any advice on this?

I have read the thread about dealing with thoughts and images, and some of those tactics work some of the time, but I have a hard time remembering to implement them when they happen.

As someone said recently, if there was a pill that I could take to make them go away, I would.

Occupy your mind with other more positive thoughts and images

I don't care if it's recovery or not, those images hurt.

So take action, any action that is positive, and repeat it over and over and realize it's over, in the past, and now it's a new time, and the sky's the limit.

It really is up to you to make your life right, and up to the couple to make a marriage right. Take charge and be sure you are clear. No more Bull

A saying I remembered last night, "Climbing the highest mountain is still done one step at a time"

Our lives are like that too Keep going forward and thinking of the little victories you have, and visualization of good things to come.

Peace and prosperity to you

Thanks CP. Your words hit home. I will just take it one day at a time (or hour at a time). I will try to look for the little victories every day. It's all I can do. Well, that and pray without ceasing...

Try to remember that she only occupied his mind with a temporary insanity, it's you that have him for the duration/now. It's you he wants to be with. Banish those thoughts when they come!

Thank you, kaycstamper, for that reminder.

Hi Kay thought about you today lol. About your wisdom and good word too.

Yes FE, praying without ceasing, I remember hearing that a lot , and also how that is an attitude of expectation, from the Father, that goes beyond words, but at times that's all we have, to let our heart be known, and of course, our father has given his word to us, as we understand it as well as we can.

But you know inside what the Father wants for you, and you can trust that for peace also, above and beyond the things that happen in this messed up world. Yes the imagination is a gift from God, but not outside the kingdom of the mind. The strongholds of what is our enemy also in our minds, is where God does his best work. The work that brings results, before you even see them.

" Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not yet seen"

It's real , it's substance...
It's evidence.. Proof

But it happens first in the mind. May I say the imagination, of which God is king and ruler of, as he protects us all from those foolish sins against ourselves, and thus Himself also

Thanks CP. I've been having awful thoughts about "getting even" with the POSOW. I KNOW that is wrong, but sometimes, I can't help them. I would not act on these thoughts, as I know that 2 wrongs don't make a right. I guess I just want to see her get what's coming to her...

I think that I've been struggling because WH has not been able to leave his job yet. That whole area is where the affair took place. It's where POSOW lives. He does have a friend of ours from our old church working with him for accountability. - His idea. I realize it's difficult to find another job in this economy, but it's so hard for me to deal with, even with this friend working with him.

I am much more action-based (take charge) than WH. When I start something, I will do it to the best of my ability, and finish it. WH waffles on things that are unknown. - Always has... Hence the finding another job issue.

We are going to be tested for STD's this afternoon. Your prayers on this are appreciated.

Here's a radio clip about contacting the OW after the affair is over and sending her nastygrams.
Radio clip about contacting OW after affair is over at 5:00 min mark

Hope it helps.

Thanks for the link, BH. I can't get it to play, though...

I was able to get the link to work on the other computer. Thank you. It was what I needed to hear.

I am smart enough not to write anything that would be considered a threat. Unfortunately, my mind has been devising more devious ways to get back at her. I don't think that I would do that, as it is quite childish. But, I think about it none the less.

Well, I've no real advice other than to say that, like everyone else, I've pondered violent actions against an affair partner. Trouble is, I don't think making license plates for the State would suit me that much.

It'll fade as your life takes a more positive turn. That's not to say that you'll ever have happy thoughts about the skank, but that it just won't occupy your thoughts as much.

Take care, it sounds as though you are on the right track.

Thanks Northwood. I don't have violent thoughts, just childish ones. Like writing her number on a bathroom wall and adding "for a good time call..."

I want her to change her number since WH knows it by heart...

Plus her BH told me not to expect her to let this go. She is nuts.

Next time you happen by a truck stop, make sure you have a marker with you should you decide to write something in the bathroom!

If she keeps bugging you guys, then just call the police each time. I wouldn't even bother trying to handle it on your own--involve the authorities to send the message that you aren't going to fool around with this.

Oh, I always carry a sharpie.

I will definitely call the cops. I have no problem with that! Wh was a bit hesitant on filing a RO, as it might "ruffle feathers" and make things worse, but I told him that snakes don't have feathers...

Oh those poor snakes!!

No feathers?

Those poor things!

I KNOW!



You are funny CP!

It's amazing what people with the generous and compassionate point of view and approach in life will put up with for the sake of the poor snakes in this life

I speak from the point of view and experience of being such a fool myself, and with the same protective male ego as any man, ( or course operating from the mammal part of my brain), I really bought the snake line hook and sinker, and swallowed it all. The foolish male ego. Even believed the impossible.

Does he see how he was fooled? By himself mostly? If you are both following the program as laid out here by DR H, in time he will have to face his own humanity and weakness too

It's part of growing up

Well, FathersEyes, you know where to find me.
For when he wants a lil' hand in getting cleaned up...

Yes, CP, it is amazing what people will put up with for the sake of the snakes... I guess that you can't necessarily "love" someone through it, so to speak.

I do believe that he sees how he was fooled. Time will tell if he continues to see it. We are both following the MB program. So far, it has been a positive learning experience.

Thank you for all of your wise words so far.

Thanks GloveOil!

Great pic! And great movie!

I think he will be posting tonight.

We are working on eliminating triggers, but some of them take time, such as selling the house, boat(which I refuse to go on now), and Antique car (which I also refuse to go in), and the biggest one- WH's job.

But what if you can't completely eliminate triggers?

Ex: Our DD16 shares her first name with the POSOW. That is a huge trigger for me. I don't even like calling DD by her name. When speaking of her to WH, I refer to her as, "our girl." I would guess that it's a trigger for WH, as well. What can we do about that short of changing DD's name?

Use her middle name? Both first and middle name? First and middle name initials? Nickname? Princess? What about asking DD?

Her first and middle initial spell out her nickname, which was the same nickname as POSOW. She doesn't like her middle name. Need to come up with a nickname for her that will stick, I suppose. Thanks for the suggestions.

Thats a tough one for sure FE
" A rose bt any other name, still smells as sweet"

Of course, skank stinks to high heaven, but that is skank, because she is a skank

I have allways told my children, and myself first, that I have a name, but it is up to me alone what that name becomes or means. So we make a name for ourselves, and it then defines us, not we are defined by our name.

As time passes, and you all realize our actions speak louder than words, the triggers that names bring will be put behind, as the character shows through and drowns out the negative connotations of the names.

Yeah I will do what it takes to make my name mean something positive and strong, because my actions dictate who I am, not my name

Someday after recovering for a while, the strength of the individual and thier actions will dictate what the name means to you, and it will not trigger like it does, because they will be long gone, in the past, part of a bad mistake long past.
You guys will make the names mean what they mean, not the other way around.

Thank you for that, CP.

I can always count on you to put things in perspective for me. You are correct, of course. DD is a remarkable, beautiful, young lady with a growing faith and a heart of gold. And some where down the line, those are a few of the qualities that will be associated with her name. They will surely overshadow the bad.

A rose by any other name is still a rose. Thanks again.

~FE

Your welcome glad I could be of help

So, I was listening to the MB radio program yesterday, and Dr. Harley addressed a woman who was having trouble triggering. I can completely relate to her. I, unfortunately have an extremely good memory for details. Therefore, I can/do trigger daily- easily. I understand what Dr. Harley says about not thinking about the affair and not talking about the affair. However, the caller said that she felt like she would have no outlet if she couldn't express these triggers or the feelings that they brought up. I agree with her. It just feels like it would eventually eat you up inside. Dr Harley did say that one would most certainly NOT go insane from not mentioning it. I'm not suggesting that I would go insane, but I have noticed that I have a lot more stomach troubles. To be honest, WH's affair put so much stress on me physically, that I have a laundry list of health issues that I am dealing with now.

On top of the triggers, which are almost too many to list without sounding like I have OCD, I have lately been troubled with the thought that I don't know if I want to be married to someone who loves someone else, also.

Do they ever stop loving them? What if the OP doesn't drain their love bank account completely? Will the wayward always have a love balance for them? How does one deal with that?

Any thoughts on this are appreciated.

FE,

Is your husband listening to the program?

Markos,

No. He hasn't listened. He has no way to listen at work, and we really don't have time in the evenings to sit in front of the computer to listen. We need to get something that we can download the app on- we are VERY low tech at this house...

Regarding your daughters, Dr. Harley's advice is not to push them, but to let them make up their own minds:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=2550

I recommend subscribing to the program archives and buying a cheap MP3 player, and he can listen in his car. You can get an MP3 player for $20-$25.

I think time he spends listening to the program will be time well spent, and it would be worth making time in the evenings for.

I am looking for signs that he is doing the work. I'm not seeing them yet.

Thank you for the link and the recommendation to subscribing to the program and buying an mp3 player. Will an IPOD work? WH has one that I gave him a couple of years ago, but we haven't set it up yet.

As far as him doing the work- He does not take the initiative in anything- ever. He willingly participates in reading, doing the worksheets, and discussing and implementing MB concepts.

Does he ever suggest we do any of the work? No.
Has he looked into ordering any other materials from MB? No.
Do I think he ever will? Honestly, I don't know.
That is one of the reasons that I was surprised that he even wanted to post here. He is not good on a computer and not very good with words, but I think that he feels like he "gets it," so that makes him a pro. Not that I think that he is cocky about it, but I am so thankful that he has you, GloveOil and HerPapaBear to help hold him accountable.

Thank you for that.

YES...the ipod will work. I bought a month subscription. I spent that month downloading TONS of stuff on my computer and moving it over through Itunes to my IPOD. I have gotten it down to about 10 different segments I want him to listen to. You can also burn your playlists from itunes to a cd if it would be easier as well. Just let me know and I'll help you. I am the world's worst at technology, but I can do this!!!

If the reality of the tremendous mistake he has done does not motivate him to take the initiative in this, then I do not hold out much hope here.

If he got really serious about listening to Dr. Harley daily, perhaps Dr. Harley would be able to motivate him.

I am watching to see if reading articles and listening to the radio translates into doing things. What is he doing for recovery, at this point?

Marriage Builders as a program does not usually work well when the wife has to shoulder most of the weight.

FathersEyes,

My FWH didn't take much of the initiative either when it came to MB; mostly at first it was me pulling out the books and questionnaires. He was okay with that, though, and fully is on board with implementing all the principles.

As long as your H is willingly implementing the MB principles, your marriage will be on its way to getting better.

My H didn't post at all. I did ask him to at first, but he was reluctant. He's not into posting much on any forum and wanted what time we had together to directly funnel into building us up. What we needed (and still need) to know comes directly from the materials.

He also doesn't initiate listening to MB radio, but anytime I want to listen together, he willingly does so and then we'll talk about it.

The key point is that you say your H is implementing what he's learning. We signed up for the MB Online Seminar and read through the materials together, aloud, each night. We would read just a couple of pages, sometimes only a page, if it was from LB, because it was so painful. We talked about that one page or so and did the questionnaires together. If I had waited for H, we would likely still be way back, but we did it together, even though I usually was the one to initiate. It was okay, because he was always enthusiastic about doing the program with me and then using it.

As long as your H is implementing, that's what matters...at least, in my own very humble opinion.

Edited to add: OOOPS! I see that this directly conflicts with the opinion of Markos.

So I want to add: The heavy lifting my H did during recovery was in dealing with the damage he had inflicted on me and on our marriage. When the fog lifted, he was very very remorseful and became almost a different man. This "new" man is loving and considerate, gives our marriage the UA time needed, and is compassionate toward me. He treats me with great care now. I am still the one who initiates anything having to do with MB, but since he is always willing and enthusiastic, I am okay with this.

Hope this makes sense.

What is he implementing?

Forgive me my cynicism. I have just seen so many guys come here in the last year and post but not do anything. So the first thing I want to know is, what's changed, and what's he doing? And I want to know from the wife. Are her complaints about the marriage being addressed. Is he taking care to stay away from opposite sex friendships. Is he spending time with her, is he talking to her respectfully?

If he's implementing the program -- then yes, the marriage will do fine, even if she's initiating each lesson.

Markos,

I just listened to that link. WOW. Dr. Harley seems to express every feeling that DD16 has, but has a hard time putting into words. I wonder if I should let her listen to the link. Your thoughts on that? She does not act unkind to him. I would say that she treats him like a "pal." - Not like a friend, so to speak. The difference being that you can share your inner most thoughts and feelings with a friend, but you just kind of "hang out" or "chill" with a "pal."

I will definitely let WH listen to it.

I also thought that it was interesting that they brought up the question of whether or not the DD was biological, because it makes a difference. DD23 is not WH's biological child. He adopted her, though. What difference do you think Dr. Harley is referring to?

My personal thinking is that letting your daughter listen to it would be fine.

I'm afraid I didn't hear them mention the question of if the child is biological or not.

My own personal opinion is that in the end, children are people who have to be free to make their own decisions in life. I will tell you that I have hardly seen my own wayward mother in twenty years! But she did not make an attempt to reconcile. If she had, I think things would have been different.

Alienated children are very often the consequence of infidelity. And the betrayed spouse should not attempt to shield the wayward spouse from the consequences of infidelity. Instead, the former wayward needs to do the hard work of repairing the broken relationships.

Thank you for your response, LWH.

That's exactly where we are. My WH treats me with extreme care and thoughtfulness. He is very loving to me and works hard at trying to make me feel safe in our marriage now. He is a different man than he was before. He has told me that he wants to be and is working on being the husband that I deserve.

Yes, the "heavy lifting" is up to me, but he is all the way on board with doing the work and practicing the principles.

Thank you for the words of encouragement.

When I say heavy lifting, I mean pulling the marriage along with the wayward spouse kind of dragging unwillingly behind. I did initiate MB, but he was always enthusiastic. I had many many very dark days with lots of emotion: anger, sadness, regret, hatred, indecision about whether to stay or go, and that's where he did the heavy lifting.

He held me and comforted me, expressed deep and real sorrow at what he had done, instituted EPs (with a few hiccups along the way, but it's good now) and meets my ENs in a way he had never ever before done, in our entire marriage. And he says he loves doing it, too. So when I feel sadness, which I still do sometimes, I always have to remind myself to look at the man he has become, thanks to implementing MB. We both look at the marriage we have now, and wish, so much we WISH, that we had known all this long ago.

As long as your H is fully on board and implements all the MB requirements, your marriage has hope.

Cynicism forgiven.

What has changed:

He is no longer the selfish man that I was married to. He always considers my feelings.

He has been practicing the rule of care- trying very hard not to cause me anymore unhappiness.

He has been radically honest with me- even though sometimes it hurts to hear. (he's not insensitive, I'm just very sensitive).

He makes certain that we get at least 15hours of UA time together each week.

He brings me on side jobs with him.- His idea.

He brings a mutual friend of ours from our old church with him to work each day for accountability. -His idea, too.

He takes extra precautions not to speak to anyone of the opposite sex, unless it's unavoidable. (i.e. -paying for gas, etc. and then it's only what he has to say.)

He speaks to me respectfully- always.

He calls me throughout the day to check on me and to tell me that he loves me.

We are working on our negotiating skills. That is something that will take practice for both of us.

My issues that haven't been resolved are:

Selling the house- we are getting it ready to put on the market.

Selling the boat- he needs to do some engine repairs before we can list it. He really hasn't had time.

Selling the antique car- he said he would do this- I didn't ask, but after I found out that POSOW had been in it, I want it gone. He now says, she only rode in it once. (I think FIL, who is extremely selfish, is pushing for him to keep it).

Changing jobs- He hasn't looked much for another job. He wants to go out on his own, but winter is not a good time for that. I can help that by taking real estate classes and getting my license. I have no income right now, but need to be able to have a job with flexibility so I can continue to care for DD16 and her medical issues.


To be fair, though, I am an instant gratification kind of gal. If you read my thread, you noticed that when I put my mind to something, I don't mess around.

I knew what you meant. I'm a bit scatter-brained today, so I am probably not expressing myself correctly.

Yes, I am the one to order the materials, but he will say, "are we reading tonight?" Then we read, discuss, do a worksheet or read an article/ watch a video on the website.

He is learning how to do the heavy lifting when I have bad days. By that, I mean that he doesn't always have the words, but he does hug me and offer comfort in many ways.

He does tell me that he realizes how lucky he is that I want to work on our marriage, and that I even still have love for him after everything that he put me through. We are still at the beginning of recovery, but we are moving forward. He did tell me that he wishes he knew of Marriage Builders long ago, too.

Thank you for your input. I will let her listen to it.

You are correct. It is up to WH to repair broken relationships.

Forgot to add that he has apologized for his actions and owned up to the affair to all of our family (including DD's), our pastor and all of our friends. - He did take the initiative on that.

I would sit down with him and figure out a schedule for accomplishing the above items.

1. Set a deadline for finishing "getting ready" to put the house on the market. Any major repairs should be done before listing, but minor ones could probably get done even if it's listed. Ask an agent for their opinion.

2. Make the time to prep the boat for sale, sell it as-is, or get someone else to do the work. Set a deadline.

3. Let FIL buy the car if he wants it that bad. Otherwise, what's the hold-up?

I agree--piddling around with things gets old fast. Having a deadline tends to make you accomplish things in a more timely fashion.

Thank you, tired. I may have to ask for your help if I can't get DD23 over here to help me!

Yeah DD 16 is old enough to be aware of the depth of human emotion and the heart

I would let her listen to it

Thank you Northwood. I like the deadline idea! As it stands now, we have a plan without a deadline date set. I will feel better about that.

Thanks CP! We're going to listen together now.

Yeah this post might be away from the subject matter at the moment, but please forgive me because it just came to my mind as to the subject in the post just quoted..

You probably have heard of what they call, "The slingshot effect". Where someone is so sheltered and disciplined that when they finally get free reign, they go wild.. Most commonly this happens in colledge when mom and Dad aren't around to watch them anymore, or protect them from consequences either.

Then they are free, lol, yeah to do all the things they wanted to do and finally have fun!

Well I was blessed enough to have a wife who when the kids were small, not only taught them that all actions, and even inaction, had consequences, and I used to tell them, along with my emotionally somewhat stable wife, that what they think and become, was up to them and whatever source of strength, ( At the young ages God and Christ, until they became old enough to recognize truth and light somewhat within themselves. Yes we are allways growing and learning, all our life)
They grew up fast and able to handle many emotional trials

My kids have had the opposite of the slingshot, having to grow up faster than many, and yet, they take on the challenges of life very well, and became the go-to friends to many others, because of thier maturity

I don't take all the credit, I consider myself blessed, and also give credit to their good freinds who were strong and mature, and from planet earth. The church they listened to the word at also had an effect, because of the word being amplified and concentrated on, not the individual speaking it.

The word was first

So growing up is a privilege and taking part of that privilege to make this a better life for all, far outweighs hiding in ignorance, and hiding our heads in the sand, waiting for it all to go away.

Forewarned is forearmed, and this has been something that has effected your whole family, and you can all be stronger for it

My kids know my mistakes also, and I expect them to be better than I have been, make better descisions, and I give them no excuse either.

You aren't alone, FathersEyes. One thing my wife said to me that hit me like a ton of bricks, very early-on during our recovery, as we were both reading through SAA & learning about affairs, was (pretty much a verbatim quote): "The thing I have the hardest time with is the thought of you actually loving her! I would almost have preferred the idea of a prostitute to this!"

Well, I can honestly tell you that I feel no love for the OW. Four years out, and if I saw her name in the obituaries in tomorrow morning's Washington Post, the most I might be able to muster is "Too bad for her kid." Not that I hate her; rather, it's just that she's so out of my life -- my wife & I have worked so hard to ensure that she is out of our lives -- that after almost 4 years, there's scarecely ever any occasion for her memory to pop to the surface.

The thing is, to get to that stage, several things are necessary:
--#1, #2 and #3 are, there can't be contact with the affair-partner.
--#4 is, he needs to be focused on & busy with his relationship with you & meeting your needs.
--#5 is, he needs to wrestle with & come to understand the making a list of the differences. He can make his own list as he ponders this stuff.

Re: the "love bank" balance, I feel like what OW put in my "love bank" --what I allowed her to put in there-- is as devalued as the marks that Germans used to haul around in wheelbarrows after World War I (because they were so worthless that it took a wheelbarrow full of them to buy a loaf of bread). Hell, as far as I'm concerned, they're counterfeit & worthless. I'd have to be an idiot to want, to accept, or to waste a second's thought thinking about anything so worthless. It almost cost me everything that's worth anything to me.

So it's possible.

But that's me. Your husband needs time. He needs to stick with his EPs.

I will tell you this: I'm wary of WHs who show up here and say they understand where they went wrong, but who don't proactivey get engaged in the discussion or who sidestep questions, or who beg off by telling me my vocabulary is too big because of something they might've read on a message I posted 3 years ago about a note I wrote to my wife. I've seen most of those WHs turn out to be too lazy to do what's needed to recover. They stick around for a short while, to put up a facade for their BWs who post here, but then when they can't handle getting called out on the inconsistencies in their conduct, they check out. (Folks who are turned off or intimidated because I throw in a college word every once in awhile -- all I can say about that is, four years ago, I myself was the dumbest man on the whole planet, and so there's not a man alive today who can tell me that I'm too smart, erudite or high-falutin' for him to talk to.

I realize, this may be just a limitation of an internet forum -- I can only go by what he types, and if typing's not his thing, then I'm out of his loop. It'd be easier for some folks if they could talk live, face-to-face, over a cup o'coffee or an honest mug of beer. (It'd be easier for me, too.) For all I know, he's making great effort & great strides, so my point here isn't to cast doubts on that. Ultimately you're the only one who'll really know the truth. The main thing isn't whether he posts here; but in real life he darned sure needs to be on top of his EPs -- as HerPapaBear cautioned him, not as a "checklist" of stuff that's "one-&-done", but as a new, permanent lifestyle, day-in, day-out.

Anyway, if he wants my take on things, he's got to bounce stuff off me, and I'll always give him a straight answer.

Yes FE, the thought that he actually was "In Lurve" with her. Is definatly a bad feeling to deal with.

Im with Glove oil on the dealing with yourself and coming clean to all the BS that the affair really was, and proving that you are straightened out, even to yourself, as a man. Many of the things he said ring true, and its a lifestyle change, for the better of course, not something to sweep under the rug ASAP.

As you both grow and understand what happens in these affairs, the fragility and nessesary EPs and commitment will become more clear and acually a priveldge.

It takes time to recover, and time for the triggers to dissapate, and lose strength, and he has work to do.

Praying for the best for you guys

Sorry, the MB "edit clock" ran out on me, and I couldn't fix my previous post where I accidentally deleted a chunk of text.

I meant to say,
The thing is, to get to that stage, several things are necessary:
--#1, #2 and #3 are, there can't be contact with the affair-partner.
--#4 is, he needs to be focused on & busy with his relationship with you & meeting your needs.
--#5 is, he needs to wrestle with & come to understand the difference between love and infatuation. I'm not gonna be doing his work by making a list of the differences. He can make his own list as he ponders this stuff.

Thanks, once again, for the reminder. I do believe in not keeping my children so sheltered from the world that they would become overwhelmed. All you can do is teach them in the way they should go, to know and love the Lord, and help them learn from mistakes. Well, that and pray for them.

We did listen to the clip together. I think she was surprised that Dr. Harley knew pretty much how she felt.

I'm having problems with my dinosaur of a computer. This took me 35 minutes to type...

I will reply to yours and GloveOil's post when I get this problem fixed.

Was this the show about triggers?
Radio clip on Triggers
Segment #2

BH- Yes that was the show.

GloveOil,

Thank you for the post. My computer is still having problems, so I will try to respond the best that I can.

First of all, it gives me a bit of hope to hear that you no longer have feelings for the OW. In my situation, I have such hatred for the OW, that it consumes me. I know this is wrong. Not only is it un-Christian, it is unhealthy. I want to make her life a living hell. I do not share this with WH, as I know that it would keep her memory alive for him.


As far as WH posting here, it was his idea, which surprised me. He doesn't get on computers- ever. Doesn't even know how to log on, let alone how a forum works. I did read his thread. And honestly, that was pretty good for him. The vocabulary thing- I know that what he meant was that you are very eloquent. He told me that you have a good way with words and that every man wishes he could word things like that.

WH does not have confidence in anything but his job skills. I think that is why he lets me lead things. He is enthusiastic about the MB program, praying together and reading the Bible together. He is the one who suggests it, but I'm the one who leads it. These are huge steps for him, albeit baby steps to me.

He does try very hard to meet my needs every day. He also is working hard at keeping EP's in place.

He claims that he has had no withdraw from her, which I find hard to believe. He hasn't been depressed, though.

If I didn't address something, please accept my apologies. My computer is making it difficult and slow to type. It keeps changing my words to random symbols... This took 40 minutes to type.

I see this line of thinking often.....

I look at God's word and it's very clear that hate is not wrong nor is it un-healthy. There is a season for everything under the sun.


Ecc. 3:1 There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under the heavens:
2 a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
6 a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,
8 a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.


It would be unhealthy to love the OW. Even as a Christian, it's perfectly normal, and IMO, healthy, to have hate. Please allow yourself to have the seasons that your grief requires... You've had a vicious event perpetrated upon you and healing will take a great deal of time.

There are some beautiful Psalms that cry out for vengeance, and they were inspired by the Holy Spirit, and it is perfectly appropriate to pray them. Vengeance belongs to God and He does promise to repay, while requiring that we leave that determination up to Him.

And here is an amazing thought:

http://bible.cc/2_thessalonians/1-6.htm
"after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,"

Wow!

In my case, healing from the people who afflicted me primarily involves forgetting them, not thinking about them, recovering to the point where I no longer dwell on what they did to me. It did not involve reconciliation, because those people would have continued to torment me. Some would say that means there was no forgiveness. Dr. Harley would say that forgiveness is not required when there is no repentance, and I agree. But there is still a "letting go" possible (down the road -- not right after the fact!), and some call that forgiveness.

Im with HerPapaBear and Markos..

I'm finally back on line after the storm.

Thank you for that HPB. It's funny that you should quote Ecclesiastes. That was the book that I was moved to study when WH first left me in May of 2011.- That exact chapter, as a matter of fact. I must have forgotten it.

I am trying to give myself time to grieve. Some days are easier than others. Recently, I've had some hard days. I finally went to my doctor yesterday and conceded to being put on AD's. I hope they help.

I truly feel that once we are able to completely move our life away from all of this, that it will be easier on me. I still waffle on whether or not I want to remain in this marriage. I'm just so tired of trying so hard for so long...

Thanks again for the reminder.

~FE

Markos,

Thank you for the verse from 2Thessalonians. I had forgotten this one, as well. It is an amazing and very comforting thought. I have been reading the Psalms. I know that it is okay to cry out to the Lord. - And I do.

To address about what you said about "letting go" (or what some people refer to as forgiveness):

I read something very similar in The Love Dare when I did it. It basically stated that to forgive someone was to stop dwelling on the wrong that they have caused you and turn it over to God to handle. It's not excusing them, but trusting God to handle the punishment. I can't wait to get to the point... Right now, I want to be around to see it. I do understand Dr. Harley's thoughts on forgiveness. I love that smart, smart man.

Thanks for the encouragement.

~FE

Thanks for always checking on me and for the prayers, CP.

The issue of forgiveness when discussed in Biblical context is clear:

"Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us" is part of the Lords Prayer. This doesn't mean forget. It doesn't mean to not have boundaries. But the Bible says that All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. There is none righteous, no not one.

When I was a teenager we had a family friend that did a couple tours of service in Vietnam. He spoke with hatred about Vietnamese people and used horrible words to describe them. This was in the 1990s, years after the war had ended. He refused to forgive them for the pain that the war caused in his life.

My grandmother, in contrast, lost her son in Cambodia. He was executed by the Khymer Rouge shortly after the war ended. The government found his remains a few years ago and she was finally able to bury her oldest son. I have never heard her say anything hateful or show any lack of care for the Cambodian people. She desires world peace and an end to hunger. She gives to help create self sustaining businesses in third world countries.

When my wife had her affair and later left, my mother told me my wife was evil. Very unforgiving.
Yet my grandmother still prays for my ex wife. And I do too.

Vengeance belongs to God. I struggle with forgiving the OM. I hate him. But Christ, our true role model, as they beat him and tortured Him cried out, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."

And this is precisely why I struggle with the hatred. How can you forgive, but still hate? Also, doesn't Paul say in the Bible that we don't have to forgive, UNLESS we are asked forgiveness by the offending party, and only IF the offending party is a believer?

On yesterday's MB Radio program, Dr. Harley spoke about this. He said something about forgiveness being given only when one repents. OW has not repented.

Also, when I spoke to my pastor about this, he told me that I could pray for God to convict OW of her sins, and for God's judgement on her. He said that I didn't have to pray for blessings- that she is evil...

That is what I pray for my ex wife.
The truth is we are all sinners. The Epistle to the Hebrews says "The heart of man is desperately wicked. " and "There are none that seek after me , no not one"

It is on her to ask for your forgiveness. But it is not our place, as betrayed spouses to hold hatred towards another person created in the image of God.
My friend that hated the Vietnamese saw them as less than human. He did not have the love of God in his heart. He did not see that they are also created in the image of God.

Christ did say that if we do not forgive others then He will not forgive us.
I think of all the lies, all the adultery, the lust of the flesh, all of my sins (Christ said if we even DESIRE or look at another with lust we have commited adultery by Gods standards) and I ask myself: Who am I to hold hatred against my wife? I better take the board out of my own eye before I judge the splinter in hers.

Now, at the same time I feel anger and hatred towards her for all the pain she has caused.

Ephesians tells us that our battle is not against flesh and blood but against spiritual forces in high places. Satan comes to rob, kill and destroy. The OW in your case, the OM in mine, are pawns In a spiritual battle. When you struggle with this issue, think of the Holy Cross, and Christ suffers immensely for OUR sins, and cries out Father forgive them! For they know not what they do!

Wow, that is really beautiful HDW. Thank you so much for taking the time to write it all.

Thank you HDW. I know that you are right. It is just so hard. It's a bit ironic that I don't feel the hatred toward WH, but I do toward the OW. They were both involved... Do you feel the same toward OM as you do your exW?

I know that it is a spiritual battle. I have had this discussion with my pastor, and with my brother and his wife. I know that God loves the sinner (as we are all sinners), but not the sin, but how do I know that OW "knows not what she is doing?" (I think she does know. She saw my WH and wanted him. She wanted to replace me and have my life.) I'm not making a judgement, just wondering.

Righteous anger is allowed in this situation, I believe. Even Christ showed righteous anger in the temple when He overturned the moneychangers tables.

I just think that this is something that is really going to take time for me. I don't like feeling like this about another person. I just wonder if I leave, will it be easier for me to get passed this or not?

Yes. I think it would be much easier to leave and divorce than recover.
I don't know about true recovery. I only had a false one for a short time. Others can speak about true recovery.

I have not seen or spoken to my wife since divorce a few months ago. I think that's easier because I don't have to be her parole officer.
And that's really what some betrayed spouses become. They have to move, change jobs, constantly hold the spouse accountable.

I was sitting in an AlAnon meeting one day listening to a story and I realized. I was like the wife telling her story. She was worried about not being able to control her husbands drinking. I realized that I was like some poor neglected wife, driving from bar to bar looking for her husbands vehicle. Only in my case I was looking or my wife with her affair partner. I learned that my self worth is not based on wether or not my wife loves me;

That's a personal decision you have to make. I can say that I had instant peace after divorce. There are times when I am sad and miss her but I am so happy to be away from that chaos. My wife also had some mental health issues so that's part of the reason I mention chaos. It can be similar to livin with an alcoholic.

Dr Harley says that recovery is hard and if his program isn't followed to the T then it often fails. The good thing is that your husband is on board. But you do have the right to leave due to his infidelity. That is a choice you should carefully and prayerfully consider before making any decision.

As for other woman not knowing what she is doing, who can say? My ex wife did so many bizarre actions I could spend a lifetime trying to find reasons. AlAnon taught me that we focus on our own actions. Obviously If people start undressing and placing lips and bottoms in certain places they know what they are doing.

As for righteous anger, we are absolutely entitled to it. Forgiveness does not mean forgetting or being a doormat. You can have personal boundaries.

HDW,

Thank you for taking the time to respond with so much thought.

You have given me much to think about. I have quite a bit to pray about, huh?

I don't know your story, except what you have told me, but I respect your advice and help with Marriage Builders steps and concepts. So, thank you for that.

The story about the lady worrying about controlling her husband's drinking is a great analogy. That is how I feel. Not as much as before, but I do think to myself, "will I feel like this forever?"

Sometimes I feel as though I am making sacrifices (and I do resent that), and I know that Dr. Harley says that you should never do that. I just have made sacrifices for so long, that it's a hard habit to break. Perhaps, as we get better at negotiating, this will be rectified.

I guess that over the past couple of years, I've lost my sense of self. I don't know my purpose anymore, but it takes so much of my time meeting Wh's needs and caring for our house, finances, etc... and family that I have no time to find out what my purpose is. (He works, and I do EVERYTHING else.) Does that make sense?

Anyway, thanks again for your wisdom.

~FE

FE,

When we look at forgiveness, we must remember it's not that we do it to "get something".

I get so irritated when the Lords Prayer is quoted, as if we "get forgiveness" only when we give it. How very mechanical.

Forgiveness is not about getting something, it�s about letting someone off the hook. It is a the path to restore relationship with another. Which is why you are abble to forgive WH. You're interested in restoring relationship with him. You will NEVER be interested in restoring anything with OW.

Jesus had no problem "Judging" and "Condeming" either.. Just look at the generation of Isreal that received his wrath. We need only look at Matthew 23. Calling them, Snakes, Whitewashed Tombs, Brood of Vipers, Sons of Hell', it goes on and on...... He condemned them...... That generation!
And, He carried out this condemnation in A.D.70 when all of Isreal was destryed... over 1 million inhabitants of Jerusalem died and and many taken to Rome as slaves.. This left the city empty for several centuries....


IMO, Your minister is correct. We are to turn away and seperate ourselves from sinners until they are repentant. Otherwise we are no more than enablers that surround waywards and tell them, it's not their fault, they were just victims too....

You have no obligation to pray for or even forgive the OW.


on a different note,

Where did your H go? He showed up and then dissappeared?

Has he left his job yet?

Papabear is exactly right. Forgiveness is not some cheap candy we force on people against their will. God doesn't forgive unless we repent, so we shouldn't imagine that we have a higher standard than God. Dr. Harley has several clips on this subject that I posted here

Then why does Saint Paul say that we are saved by the grace of God, and not of our works? You state that Gods forgiveness is dependent upon OUR act of repentance. That We bring about our salvation through our repentance. If that was the case how could a retarded individual repent? Or how could a child repent?

Nelson Mandela was Imlrisoned and beaten. After release he did not have hatred towards his prison guards.

I'm a betrayed spouse. I don't advocate being a doormat or beating post.
But Gods love is NOT dependent on our actions.

Children and mentally retarded people don't need forgiveness. They aren't accountable in the same way adults are.

I think you are confusing two concepts. Love and Forgiveness. Yes God loves us all the time, even in the midst of our sin. But He doesn't forgive us until we are sorry and ask for it. Two different issues.

Long before God made the heavens and the earth He elected those whom He would save to salvation. In fact the Bible describes Christ as the lamb slain before the foundations of the world.

The Epistle to the Hebrews declares that there is none righteous, no not one. It further declares that the heart of man is desperately wicked, and there is none that seek after me; no not one.

Before a person becomes saved they are like Lazarus, spiritually dead. Only when they are saved by God do they repent. Because after being baptized with the Holy Spirit we receive a new resurrected soul. We repent because our old life is contrary to our new will.

Our good works, mean nothin to God. We can show penance and wear sackcloth but that does NOT save us. His forgiveness is soveirgn and entirely unconditional.

Well... (where's Celtic Voyager when we need him?) ... I guess a Calvinist might resolve this by saying that God leads people (or not) to a place of repentance -- people being totally depraved & thus unable to get to that place on their own.

But, FathersEyes, maybe to steer this subthread back into what I think was its orignal lane, of course you're not confronted with (or empowered to address anyhow) the question of whether to grant OW salvation. We're only talking about you forgiving her or not.

In that regard... maybe you don't need to forgive her just yet. Maybe you can, or maybe you're not there yet. Maybe you won't ever be there, or maybe you will. As HPB suggested, there's a time & place for that, but it might not be today, or 2013...

People have sometimes suggested to me that I need to forgive myself. I don't think I even have any right or standing to do so, so it's easy for me to rebuff those suggestions; but although our situations are obviously not equal, one thought that I've had might equally apply:

I don't think forgiving myself ought to be anywhere near the top of my priorities. I have too much to do to make things better for my wife. Too much to do to be better all-around. Perhaps in the same way, forgiving OW -- while it maybe something that you come around to, or not -- probably needn't be anywhere on your "Top 200" list of things you need to do in order to make your life & your marriage better.

So, provided that your husband is attending to his EPs and provided you're being vigilant to ensure that she remains the heck out of your lives, then maybe OW isn't worth, and doesn't deserve, very much of your brainspace, time, focus or energy right now. As long as the affair is dead, then this 'forgiveness' bit is, I think, a can that you can kick down the road for some other time.

I know... easy for me to say, right?

I think you are into a theological discussion that belong on the "other Topics forum"....

My discussion with FE had to do with "Her" forgiving OW.

My point only was about my irritation of using the Lord Prayer as a tool to guilt someone into forgiving another...

I could never worship a God that tells me how well I forgive a person that would murder my child, or rape my wife, or betray me, is the same measure of forgiveness God will use upon me.

Lets stay on topic and do our best to avoid thread jacking FE's thread with theological debates. I believe she will be best served here by allowing her the seasons necessary for true recovery. And I beleive we can all agree that Gods Word proclaims there is a time for everything under the sun, even a time to hate.

Well put!

God does not forgive anyone against their will. He does not force anyone into heaven at the point of a gun.. The bible clearly states that some will go to hell. One does not need to impart fake forgiveness to release "hate." A retarded person does not sin because he is not aware of the concept of right and wrong; it is the same principle that is applied to a child who is not held accountable before the age of awareness.

Even so, this was not intended to be a biblical debate but a response to this poster about why she does not owe forgiveness to the OW.

I understand FathersEyes issue with forgiveness. I struggle with it too. I am soooo hurt, angry, resentful. I have good days, and then I have bad days. I forgive my H as a mere human being, a soul in torment. It is very difficult to forgive him because of his choices to repeat those actions over and over. I try to think of it as forgive him because he is sick. I don't have to like it, and I don't have to put up with it. I don't want to let the anger and hatred, and the negativity that comes with it define me or ruin my days.

The point of forgiveness is two-fold. One, we are supposed to forgive those who "tresspass against us." Jesus didn't die on the cross for us for us to hold grudges and retaliate by being angry, becoming heard-hearted and treating others badly. We are supposed to rise above that and treat each other with love and kindness. Remember, love your enemies, turn the other cheek, and all of that. We are supposed to live and love as Christ loved us, let the light of Christ shine from us. That is just do darn difficult when you get your heart ripped out by your spouse over and over again by his/her most hurtful devastating choices.

Two, forgiveness is more for us than for the other person. If we hold it in as anger and hatred, that just eats us alive. It changes us into hard-hearted, less caring people. That anger and hatred will be the guiding force for our lives, and we will not ever achieve true peace and happiness. It wastes energy that we could be putting into ourselves and our children creating a loving, peaceful, happy environment for our whole family. Living in non-forgiveness is a prison for us. It is freeing to forgive. We can become who we were meant to be when we forgive and let it go.

I believe that is a healthy way to look at it. So all that said, when you believe that forgiveness is part of your path to salvation, it is a very important thing to discuss. I, for 1, am glad it was brought up. I really struggle with trying to not let my anger and hatred direct how I am going to respond or, who I am going to be as a person, and I never want it to be the thing that takes me away from my path to salvation.

Littlebit, please listen to Dr Harleys radio clips on forgiveness. We don't need to "forgive" in order to release anger or bitterness. Giving someone a fake, unwanted forgiveness is not biblical and is not appropriate. Living in non forgiveness is not a prison, nor is forgiveness intended to be used as a selfish one sided, feel good measure. Forgiveness requires a forgiver and a forgivee in order to have any meaning.

A person can "release anger" without forgiving the OP. What you are talking about is some feel good fake forgiveness and not real forgiveness. Dr Harley discussed this on his radio show recently:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=2864

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=2865

Thank you ML. I will listen to these links you posted. I think it depends on how you look at it or maybe the words used to describe it. I am not talking about fake forgiveness. I am also not saying that I would forget. I am definately not saying that forgiveness means that I have to let that person even remain in my life. For me, I believe that for that person not to have any hold or control over me, I want to see them as flawed, forgive them for their horrible choices and move on. This has always worked for me in my life. It is now an issue b/c it is my spouse, covenant, marriage, etc... If I can get the clips to work, I will listen to them and respond. It is great to learn other ways to deal with things.

IMO, there are two levels of forgiveness. The first is where the wronged person releases their anger and bitterness, and gives vengeance into God's hands. When Jesus prayed for forgiveness for His tormentors, He was quite literally asking for God to not hold that sin against them. Basically, "Please don't let their sin stand in the way of You working in their lives and bringing them to repentance." They hadn't yet confessed their sins to receive the type of cleansing which is promised to a believer (1 John 1:9) and yet this level of forgiveness is important or Jesus wouldn't have taken the time while He was dying to establish it.

The second level is two-sided, where there is not only a release of anger by the wronged person, but repentance on the side of the "wronger", and often restoration, as well. The apostle Paul would be a good example of this, where he went in the space of a few minutes from a fire-breathing murderer to a sorrowful, forgiven sinner who was taken in and sheltered by the very people he was trying to destroy. Doubtless many of them had lost friends or family because of his sins, and yet when God told them that it was safe to accept him, they did.

Due to the addiction factor, I can't recommend getting all buddy buddy with an OW, no matter how repentant, but if all other steps are carried out, there will be plenty of time in the perfection of heaven to sort the rest out. Cause you'll both be there.

Thank you all for your input. You all have given me a lot to think about. Sorry if I started a heated debate. That was certainly not my intention.

I have not had the opportunity until now to get on the forum.

There have been a few developments since I have last been on.

First, the POSOW showed up at WH's work last Wednesday. (Yes, he is still at the same job.)She cornered him on a dock between his truck and the boat that he and his partner were working on. The owner of the boat was also there. She asked WH for a minute of his time, but he just walked passed her. She asked him if he had the spare key to her car and the book to her car. He said no. She asked if they could still be friends and talk every once in a while and he said, "No. I hurt a lot of people and I wont do that again." He threatened her with a RO, to which she said, "That's not necessary." He started to walk back to the boat and she asked for a hug. He said no and kept walking. WH told me about this when he got home that night. He was proud of the way he handled the situation. It upset me, but I didn't use any LB's. I just told him that I wished that he would've called me immediately.

Second, my FIL is really trying to undermine our recovery. He complains to WH about how I have too short of a leash on him and that he feels, "victimized." He also tries to discourage WH from changing jobs, selling house and moving away. He complains that he never gets to see him "alone" anymore, even though WH explained that is one of the extraordinary precautions that we have in place. FIL still talks to POSOW for crying out loud!! And lies to me about it.

I emailed the radio program about the FIL situation, and Joyce called me today. I am going to be on the program on Monday.


Any thoughts on this are appreciated.

In yesterday's program Dr Harley said it is sometimes necessary to cut out in laws.
In your father in law in poison to your marriage, do you drink poison?

Regarding the crazy woman, te issue of a restraining order has been brought up in the past. I would pursue it.

I thought she lived far away (or am I wrong)?

She lives about 2 miles from WH's job.

I have no problem cutting out my FIL, but my husband is a different story.

If she lives 2 miles away then you need to move.
Dr Harley stresses this is extremely important.

She lives 2 miles away from WH's job, which is about 35 miles from where we live.

You cannot demand that your H do anything. You can make requests though.

I'd help with this if your H would ever decide to post on his thread and ask, otherwise, the best I can do is suggest you negotiate the most favorable position you can with your H that allows YOU to feel safest.

I'd suggest you continue to complain though, carefully. Reminding your H that it may withdraw some love units when you complain, but it's withdrawing more from your bank knowing that FIL is still willing to talk to OW and is willing to lie about it to you. H needs to know there is still a hole in your love bank, draining it, because of contact with FIL & FIL's thoughtlessness.

Will your H listen to Dr. Harleys show with you when this topic airs?

Just common sense is it not?

Its totally highly personal, and a gift not to be thrown around either

HPB,

Thanks for your reply. I know that I cannot demand this of WH. I appreciate your willingness to help with this. I wish that he would get back on here, too.

I did tell him that I would be on the show, and he thought that was great. He told me that he wanted to hear what Dr. Harley had to say, so I know that he will listen to it.

The thing is, when I talk to FIL, he acts like everything is fine and that we are doing the right things, but when WH talks to him, it's a different story...

You are right! Thanks, once again, for your wisdom, CP.

And ML!

Well, I was on the radio program yesterday. Unfortunately, my husband and I missed the first 15 minutes or so of the program, as we didn't get home until after midnight. I must say that it did not go over very well with WH. We came in around the part where Dr. Harley was talking about divorcing your parents. WH got defensive and told me that he would NOT not talk to his father again. Which makes me feel like he has chosen his father over me... We did have a few tense words about the situation.

We did calm down and talk about it for about an hour. WH said that his father was only doing what he (WH) told him to do. And that basically he was the one who put his father in that position.

I really hope that WH will email Dr. Harley, but I won't hold my breath.

Can anyone post the link to that part of the radio program, so that WH can listen to the whole thing? Or tell me how to do it?

Click on the "listen now" link on the right side. Yesterday's radio program will be replayed until today's program is posted at 2PM Eastern time.

AM

Thank you Armymama. I can listen now, but WH is at work, so is there a way to save it?

No, there is not a way to save it unless you have special software.

If you email the Radio Show they may send it to you?

I heard you on the show and I think you composed yourself well and communicated the situation very clearly.

Dr Harley agreed that your husband comes from a "culture of affairs."

God's wisdom is for a man to leave his mother and father and cleave unto his wife. Your husbands father is just toxic; I can relate to toxic inlaws. My wifes alcoholic mother lived with us a third of our marriage. Despite all the damage and how toxic her mother was, she could not kick her out. She placed her sick relationship with her mother above the welfare of her own family.

Thank you Jedi. The Harley's are very easy to talk to.

I will email them and see if I can get a copy.

I will post it to your thread as soon as they post it.

Thank you BrainHurts! I really appreciate it!

Sorry to hear that, Jedi. I guess it is just too difficult for some people to cleave...

As long as WH is a WH, don't be surprised about him choosing anything and everything above the family. Of course it hurts, but expect it and don't let it weigh you down more than you can help.

Honestly, a WS who picks their family first on ANYTHING probably did so by accident.

Once he's ready to be a FORMER WS it'll be time to talk turkey and establish firm boundaries. For now, your future boundaries are only expressed verbally, whether they're concerning the OW or the IL's. Positive statements are always better than telling what you won't do.

"I am only willing to be part of a M that contains 2 people."
"It is important to me to have a husband that puts his family first."
"The life I am going to lead does not have room in it for [insert any bad behavior - adultery, alcoholism, drama - whatever the case may be]."

Boundaries are not enforced until Plan B and beyond, but repeated verbal expression of them establishes them as familiar concepts.

Thank you, Neak. I appreciate the advice- especially the part about the repeated verbal expression. I will definitely do that. WH is trying, but he has a lifetime of habits to overcome, as do I (I'm a bit of a quicker learner, though).