I am 1 month out of my wife having her last attempted contact with the OM. Life is pretty rough right now, and I only recently found MB while googling "How to recover from infidelity". The articles struck so close to home, it was good to make some sense out of my wife's infidelity, see the symptoms of hurt and recovery in myself. Strangely enough, I had followed much of the advice without anyone coaching me or having read anything. I essentially worked Plan A until contact was severed. My problem now is the post-mess - I am trying to process and work through things with my wife, I have a counselor, and dealing with my wife trying to break an alcohol addiction. Where we are at odds is what I think happened and how I felt closely track with what I think was an affair. She thinks it was unfaithfulness, but not an affair since there was no sex. My friends and counselor and things I've read validate me, but I don't know anyone who has survived an affair - emotional, physical, sexual - so I thought I'd share my story and get some validation or refuting opinions. My wife and I are trying to reconcile, but this is hampering the healing for me.

My wife has had a tough year. She has been in 8 rehabs over 3.5 months. She can't seem to kick the alcohol, partially because she believed it wasn't THE problem, instead it was the marriage issues, handling 4 kids, her childhood trauma, etc. In the second stint in rehab, she met the OM. I visited her daily, and when she talked about OM, it sent up flags, but I tucked it away, as I only cared about her recovery.

Between the next 4 rehabs, she was out for 10 days total. During this time, she talked about OM openly, and would be on the phone either texting incessantly or calling for sometimes hours. I continued to tell her how uncomfortable this was making me, but she told me I had nothing to worry about, OM was just a friend who understood her addiction. I wanted to believe her, and she had been faithful to me for 17 years. But my gut and everything I saw told me something was wrong.

In rehab, she had very little ability to contact OM except to write letters, and I'm not sure how many she sent, if any. Out of rehab, she went to meet OM in the evenings or during a weekend day on 5 different nights over those 10 days. No physical contact and no expression of feelings, according to her. I continued to express hurt and tell her what I was seeing, but to no avail. Our old relationship rule of not being alone with someone of the opposite sex was cancelled unilaterally by her. We always had said, "It just happened" isn't valid, as you need to keep yourself from the situations in the first place.

She entered rehab again for 2 weeks, no contact with OM. I picked her up after her time was complete, and on the 2nd day she was home, told me she was going to an AA meeting with OM. I again shared my feelings, but I could tell she was not listening. She looked like she was going on a date.

After 3.5 hours of her being gone, I decided to stalk her, not call her as I had done before when I found out she was out with OM. AA meetings don't last 3+ hours. I went to the place I was hoping she wouldn't be, and found them at a table having drinks - she had her arms around OM as if giving him a hug goodbye. I watched as that changed to her sitting on his lap, arms around him - I don't know why, but I was just paralyzed. I wanted to leave, or I wanted to confront, but I just sat there frozen. It was a long embrace - 15 minutes at least - and the thing that woke me up was when she ran her fingers through OM's hair. I jumped out, confronted them, and went back to my car.

She came to the car, and we ended up going somewhere to talk. I heard things about my marriage that needed to improve, and had open ears. She told me she realized that night that they both had feelings for each other, and realized that she needed to cut it off. This was the first hopeful thing I would hear over and over the next 6 weeks, but would not come true.

One of the things she told me disconnected her from me was my controlling behavior. It was not overt control, but "helpful" control, such as strongly recommending choices for her. As a result of her saying this, I swung the opposite direction, and didn't think I had the right to ask her never to have contact with OM again.

A couple days later, she requested a day away from the kids to study her bible, journal, and just spend some time thinking at the lake. I gladly did this for her, but as the day dragged on, and I couldn't contact her on the phone, I took my younger kids and went to see her at the lake. As I arrived, OM walked out of some trees, followed shortly by my wife. Furious, I asked her not to physically see him anymore. She agreed, but continued texting and calling him, often sacrificing time with me to do so, for the next 2 weeks. I saw some of the texts, and OM said things like "miss u so much", "you make me melt when I'm around you", "i think everything you say and do is so important", etc.

She continued to tell me she loved me, not OM, and would cut it off. She didn't want me to leave. She told me this and other things, that at first, sounded believable, but with the continued contact and lies, I had lost hope in.

After 2 weeks, she called me after having done some shopping, and said she wanted to read the book her counselor recommended for an hour or so. But, she sounded so weird - the questions she was asking me, how she was asking, so hesitant, sounding guilty. I said sure, but then had second thoughts after a little bit of time. I called her and asked her to come home. She did, but lied about where she was - based on her route home, it was obvious to me she had seen OM again. I confronted her, and after 10 minutes of continuous lies, she finally confessed that she wanted to meet OM's friend. I requested that she cut this off for good - she agreed to not contact OM for 30 days, but she couldn't cut it off for good. The 30 days didn't last - she kept falling off the wagon and contacting OM.

A couple days later, we were out eating dinner together, and something she said caught my ear. I started asking questions, and found out that she had met OM at the same restaurant a few days before I had caught her going to meet OM's friend. She had gone out that night with her best friend, and called OM to meet her. A couple other things she said got me thinking, so I asked, and found out that the day at the lake and subsequent 2 meetings, she had made out with OM several times.

We spent the next 3 weeks her trying to disconnect from OM, but she kept wanting to "return it to a friendship" since he was "such a good friend before I messed up". I knew for sure that would not be an option if her and I were to reconcile our marriage.

We were about to go on vacation, and while we were talking, a text from OM came in, and she went into ignore husband mode as she started interacting with OM. I got pretty emotional, and asked if OM was coming on vacation with us too. This shook her, and she seemed to hear my feelings for the first time since it started. She asked what I wanted, and I asked for her to make good on her promise to cut him out of her life. She sent him an email, not quite as direct as the one suggested on the MB site, but it got the point across. OM sent a scathing email back, about how he had lost all respect for me making an ultimatum, since obviously they were just friends.

Wife and I have been trying to rebuild things - I have been very attentive and open to fixing the wrongs I had been hurting her with. It has been hard being this way as she mourns the loss of OM, and it is difficult to keep doing the right thing.

We can talk a bit about the unfaithfulness, but where we are running into a snag is how we both rank it. After reading a lot on the internet (including MB), talking with friends, and talking with my counselor, I feel like I experienced what many feel with a "full" affair. I had so much anxiety and hurt - I sat at work for 2 weeks with a crushing sensation in my chest, and am surprised I got anything done - some days i didn't remember what I had done or meetings I participated in. I had nights where I couldn't sleep - a first for me. I cried more in 2 weeks than I think I have the rest of my life.

I want to go to an affair support group, and told her about it. She said that they wouldn't relate, as they had "real" affairs, not just a little "messing up" and hurting her marriage. It floored me. I asked her if she could choose me having a 1 night stand with someone I didn't love and never saw again or the same thing she did where I fell in love with someone else and dragged it on for weeks/months, what would she choose. She said she would prefer the non-sexual affair, because it wouldn't hurt as much.

I suppose I am happy that it didn't go sexual, or last months or years, but as I've processed and thought, I've realized her embracing and kissing OM are awful, but the fact that she has a heart connection with OM that is so hard to die, that is the hardest thing for me.

So, after all that, I just have a simple question - am I entitled to feel this is the worst thing that ever happened to me? Or do I need to move on quicker, because this wasn't sexual, so no harm no foul?

Hi KSummit, welcome to Marriage Builders. I would not get hung up on definitions. Why not define it as a baloney sandwich and call it good? In the meantime, you have been incredibly hurt by her baloney sandwich[bs] and need to make sure that no more bs takes place in the future. That means that your marriage needs to be bs proofed so you are protected in the future.

You don't need to go to an "affair support group;" you need to follow the steps for recovery that are outlined in Surviving an Affair. [you can download this on kindle for PCs tonight and read it]

However, that will be a waste of time if your wife doesn't stop drinking. If she won't stop drinking and do it in a way that does not jeopardize your marriage, this will never work. For example, did you know that co-ed AA meetings are PICK UP JOINTS? The meetings are crawling with what we call "13th steppers" who are there to pick up chicks. So you need to make it a condition that your wife only attend women's meetings OR open meetings that you can attend with her. However, you already know this about the meetings!! Your wife is just ending one affair and there will be more unless she stops doing this!!

Here are the steps for recovery after an affair:

From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.

These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.


Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____ Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.

Is this dirtbag OM married?

Thanks for the quick reply. The dirtbag you mention was not married. In my wife's words, OM was so respectful and gentlemanly, and understood her addiction and OCD. She often told me they would have never worked out long-term because of all OM's other incompatibilities with her, or lack of similar values. She takes all blame on herself for the affair, and gives him a clean bill of health.

One thing I struggle with is this affair was a bit in secret, but I got to watch it from beginning to end - at least the parts I perceived and what I actually experienced. It made it even more hurtful. I even told her I almost wish I hadn't found out, and it had gone to full conclusion - a conclusion that would have either meant us apart, or her blowing up the fantasy of what she feels/felt about who he was and how amazing he was.

As far as the drinking, yes, it is a problem. She has struggled the last 2 weeks saying she doesn't want to do it anymore, but every time she quits, she has physical withdrawal symptoms. We checked her into the 8th rehab a couple days ago, and she is so hopeful and ready to be without drinking.

I also think she wanted to be in rehab to avoid the "intense" conversations with me about the affair. I don't want to bring her down, so often just focus on how I can invest in the relationship and deposit in her LoveBank. But, I need to figure this stuff out, and I don't know how to talk about it without hurting her and having her withdraw. I don't do it angrily or judge her at all... and the times she has shared, I have given her feedback that I actually feel better knowing the truth, than letting the details fall to my dark imagination.

Also, thanks about the AA info... I'm a bit of a naive innocent sometimes, but that makes a lot of sense that guys troll AA meetings looking for vulnerable women. My wife is not a believer in AA, but I think she needs someone safe who can help her when she is in a bad place.

I have talked to her about what I have learned on MB site, and want her to read about the relationship builder concepts. I just haven't been in a place to do that with her sober yet.

Sir,
You cant believe anything your wife tells you.
They probably did sleep together.

Install spyware on everything and expose their affair

Do you have minor children?

I saw realtime texts, recovered many deleted texts, and saw emails and phone calls. I sometimes wonder if something else happened, but the times I know she was with OM, it is easy to reconstruct where she was, and she quickly came home. I know before she pursued OM, she told me how he bragged about how skilled he was at getting women - and then denied that when I saw the manipulations being applied to her.

I don't believe her yet - but, my suspicious intuition tells me it probably didn't happen. I won't say it didn't, because I don't know for sure, and can't until I trust her again and she validates. But, I have many clues and facts for believing she didn't go beyond kissing.

All that being said, yes, it would suck to find out that she did actually have a "full" affair with OM. But, it won't change the betrayal any more than I already feel. It will hurt all over again, and we will have to work through the rebuilding trust from square 1, but the depths of my despair were real, and overwhelming even believing that she didn't sleep with him.

I don't care about that, other than trying to figure out if it didn't happen, does that make my feelings any less valid?

That is so sad to read that she believes he "respected" her. Of course he didn't. He was using her and taking advantage of her. Any man who trifles with a married woman has essentially announced that he thinks she is of low morals. Tell your wife I feel sad that she allowed herself to be degraded in such a way.


I completely understand the feelings you express here and would suggest much of your pain comes from the fact that you abandoned your own boundaries and allowed it to happen. Lesson learned.


It is the #1 problem in your situation. It has to be resolved before you have any hope of recovering your marriage. When I say this, I do mean you should affair proof your marriage now so no further damage is caused. You won't be able to come back from much more damage here.


Her lovebank is closed as long as she is an active alcoholic. This is why it must be resolved FIRST.


Do you have all the details now? Once you get the full facts it should never be brought up again. If you don't have all the facts, ask her to do a final doc dump so you can both move on.


I so agree. I have been sober in AA for 29 years. She needs to a) get a strong female sponsor and b) attend female only meetings or OPEN meetings. You can attend open meetings. And you should drive her to meetings or agree that her sponsor pick her up at the house. Alcoholics will lie and sneak out to bars, etc.

Don't even trust her out of your sight. She is absolutely untrustworthy.


1. complete sobriety
2. affair proof the marriage NOW

Close the door on the affair asap before further damage is done to your marriage. If her damage continues, you will quickly reach a place where you give up. An alcoholic is no prize so it won't take long for your lovebank to bleed out to the level of hatred.

Yes - all 4 children are minor - 2 teens, an elementary kid, and a toddler. The drinking started after the last kid, as our family is in different stages of life - a very stressful situation for a stay-at-home mom.

One more bit of info - I drank with my wife at the beginning. I fought to give it up last year, and finally gave it up at the beginning of the year. I hurt my wife by telling her I did it, so she could too. Sometimes, it was encouraging. Many times it was condemning and not supportive. That is when she went from evening drunk to full-time drunk and rehab entered the picture.

KS, it would also help tremendously if you exposed her affair and her alcoholism. This will give you much needed support and others can hold her accountable. This is EXTREMELY therapeutic for an alcoholic/wayward. Your kids especially need to know because it is likely she has exposed them to some bad things. They have every right to know everything that is happening in their lives.

Also, be sure and save all your evidence of the affair in a safe place. You may need it someday.

Have you checked YOURSELF to see if the OM is married or single?

Thanks MelodyLane - your comments are helpful.

I agree about the "respected" thing. But I understand, because she felt controlled by me and felt unappreciated by me. Not who I am anymore.

I did abandon my own boundaries and allow the affair to blossom... I thought I was doing it to save my marriage. I know better know the difference between real control, and respect of my marriage commitment.

I am hopeful that this last (for me) rehab stay will actually help her. It is eye-opening to hear that her lovebank is closed while she is an active alcoholic - that makes sense. I feel like I have wasted the past 2 months, but have learned a lot and am resilient to do it right when she is sober.

I have asked her some details more than once - I think because if she says them 2 or 3 times the same way, it builds trust that she is telling me the actual truth. Is there a better way to approach it so I can hear the truth, and not keep rehashing details?

As far as affair proofing the marriage, I know I haven't done that yet. It is because she isn't sober yet. But, I know she has not contacted OM since I knew about it. She has been saying things and journaling things that are starting to align with my reality about the affair and my feelings. Still a long way to go though. I want her to go through the MB site/course and agree that is what she wants to do, but she is in rehab and I have to wait for her to get out and agree.

OP,
I am so sorry you are here, and I feel your pain.
It hurts me to say this, and I have tears right now, but I believe your W slept with the OM.
The fact that you saw her sitting in his lap points in that direction.
Maybe you should demand your W take a Polly.

I am not sure about exposing the affair at this point. I feel she is beyond it, and am concerned about spoiling her. I thought about this a lot today, because today is the first time I read about exposing. I feel like my wife is on the right path, and not happy about what happened. I am reluctant to expose it to my older kids & my family. The people that know are me, her, her best friend, and my 4 friends. Regardless, the exposing is something I am considering. The only thing holding me back, is I don't know that I agree that it would be helpful for my alcoholic mom understanding teens to know that their mom also was unfaithful.

The alcoholism thing is exposed - my 2 teens know about it - the church leadership knows, her friend knows, my friends know, multiple of her friends know. She is open about it to others, and wants to end it. She didn't feel like she wanted to end it 1 month ago, so I am hopeful.

I understand. I also felt very "controlled" by my "controlling husband" when he objected to my destructive behavior. If that is what you mean by "control" that is not control. Control is FORCING HER to do things against her will. It is *NOT* control to ask her to stop abusing you with her affair, lies, deceit and active alcoholism. Do you see the difference?


When she gets out, make her a deal. Ask her to answer all your remaining questions in one fell swoop so you can get it over and move on. Promise you won't get angry and promise you will drop it in the future. [unless something new comes up]


Does she have the same phone #? Email account? Can the OM contact her in rehab? If so, I would ask her to protect you NOW from this. Get her a new phone # and ask her ot close that email account and give you full access to her computer.

You need to be able to feel SAFE and that needs to start now before she causes any further damage.

The evidence is in a safe place. Someplace my wife does not have access to.

I have not been 100% honest to my wife either. I am waiting for her honesty. I have not told her I have her deleted texts and I know more than she thinks I do. I have not told her I looked at her phone records and know exactly how many hours she talked to him, and exactly how many texts she sent him. I have not told her I saw the emails she didn't intend for me to see - she gave me her password after she sent him the disconnect email, and I snooped after that.

What should I tell her about that?

Yes, the OM is single. He is living in an apartment with a friend, but not married. I validated.

I don't want to be in denial, and I am open to proving exactly what did happen. But, why does that mean she slept with him? I want to know the truth, and am willing to accept it. Why is Poly the only way to know for sure?

It is the best thing for all concerned, especially your wife. Exposure is therapeutic, secrecy about her affair is harmful to her. The more people who know, the more people to hold her accountable. Telling the kids lies about what really happened hurts them and just teaches them dishonesty. Children are not made happy or secure with lies and illusions. It just confuses them.

Also, exposure will motivate her to certainly end her affair and work on the marriage. Dr. Harley, the founder of Marriage Builders, is a clinical psychologist and here is what he recommends:

Dr. Harley on telling the children:

here



here

here

Don't ever tell her about your spy resources. Being radically honest will HARM you when there is an affair. You should continue to snoop and never tell her about your resources.

You SHOULD tell her you are watching her like a hawk and those methods will never be divulged. She can "trust" you to watch her like a hawk forever.

Sir,
Exposure is not what will hurt your children.
Their mother becoming drunk and having affairs is what is harming their family.
If she got drunk and drove into a tree, would you tell your kids or cover it up?

An affair is just as destructive

Thanks again, MelodyLane -

Yes, I now know the difference between overt control, the "good" control I applied on my wife, and the "control" I avoided by not demanding she end the affair. I have learned the difference, and am not afraid to assert a healthy demand.

I want to hear all the details, and not re-visit them. But, I admit that I am in a place that I don't trust her yet. I have asked about some details, and they have become more detailed the 2nd time I have asked about them. Unlike some of the posts I have read, I have not digressed to square 1, but I anticipated the lies, and accepted the new details, and continued from that point. Huge revelations would probably send me to square 1, but minor additions or changes to the story are ok, as I want to understand and hear 100% truth.

On the day she sent him an email disconnecting from him, with her permission, I added him to a blocked number for texting and calling, and I changed her email. She does not have access to her old email. But, as I discovered on our vacation after she disconnected, she memorized his phone number. I feel safe with her phone, as records show he and she haven't called or texted since 1 month ago. but, now that she is in rehab, I can't say for sure she hasn't contacted him with her memorized number.

She has proven trustworthy for 1 month. Should I still insist she change her phone number?

I have felt safe for a week... for more than that actually, except for her remaining feelings for OM. I have read all the stuff on MB site... what point am I missing?

And you shouldn't trust her. I hope you learn to accept that for a very long time. Trust has to be earned. It is too much trust that leads to affairs.


I would strongly suggest you skip the minor details and just ask her about any major revelations. If there are none, just drop it and never bring it up again.


She cannot be trusted UNLESS you change the phone # because that is a wide open avenue the OM can exploit. These types of risks have to removed. The OM should not be ABLE to have a way to contact her. Looking at the records won't prevent him from calling. I would bring her a new phone and cancel the old #.

Have you looked around for a burner phone? Many cheaters carry pre-paid secret affair phones.


The part you are missing are extraordinary precautions. You shouldn't feel safe until that happens.

I have told her I am watching her deeply. She told me she knows that I know where she is physically. It is true. She has not tried to change that knowledge. But, I have not divulged 100% what I know.

I am still not sure how exposure about the affair will help my kids. They are recovering from the alcoholism, and accepting that their mom needs help, but not truly understanding what that means. Adding the element of emotional and partial physical affair might help me, but will add an element of confusion to them that only my oldest might understand.

I feel like my wife is moving past the affair. I agree that I should add some deep openings to make sure it sticks, but I am mixed about why I should expose my kids to this. I don't see the upside.

Is she going in and out of rehabs because its easier for her to carry on her affair? I find it astonishing that an alcoholic would do that!! How do you explain that none of this rehab business has WORKED???

As I have said before, the older children are included in understanding that their mom is addicted and depending on alcohol. I am struggling with the affair details and how it will help them or her to know. I am at a point that I think they will not have any understanding, only judgement, that their mom abandoned their dad.

There is no reason to lie to your kids about her affair. That harms her and it harms them. Don't lie to your children, Sir. That is sick and dysfunctional. Kids are not made happy or secure by lies and illusions.


She has not moved past anything. Of course you should be honest with your kids. This is vital information about their lives that they have a right and a need to know. It is very likely that some of them already know. Telling them gives you an opportunity to discuss it with them and give them moral guidance.

Don't cover this up for your wife. That is not fair to her or your kids.

Children over the age of 4 "understand" infidelity very well. They know what it means. And of course, they can "judge" that adultery is wrong if you have taught them right from wrong, which I am sure you have.

Thanks again, MelodyLane, for your insights -

I get that I can't trust my wife. I do when it makes sense to my suspicious soul, but not otherwise. I am a very suspicious and snoopy husband.

So, you are saying I shouldn't ask for the details about the affair, only the major heart-changing moments? I care about the details too... should I not? Is that counterproductive to reconciliation?

OM cannot exploit her existing #. It is blocked permanently, in a way she can't change without me knowing. But, she knows his #... I can't change that without giving her a lobotomy. How do I fix that without trusting her? My wife is not resourceful enough to understand prepaid phones vs postpaid phones. I have validated this assumption. I am a sneaky and distrustful person.

The extraordinary precautions thing I have linked to her agreeing to the MB concepts. Is that something I should not be thinking? I want my wife to agree to these things, and come in line with my thinking, not be compelled or controlled to these conclusions.

No, that is not what I mean. You need the details, but don't keep re-hashing known events and trying to milk more details about events you already know about.

[quotee]OM cannot exploit her existing #. It is blocked permanently, in a way she can't change without me knowing.[/quote]

Gotcha! Now what about facebook? What other ways could he reach her?


trusting her does not fix that! The way you fix that is to eliminate any opportunities she has to contact him.


I find that impossible to believe especially since she hangs out with alcoholics!! Even wetbrains know how to do this!!


I would insist she comply and strongly COMPEL her to comply if she wants to stay married. Why not?? Let her know this is what it will take to recover your marriage. Your marriage is hopeless otherwise.

Agreed... the rehab thing hasn't worked the multiple times she has been in. But, it has not been conducive to increase an affair. Her affair escalated after the 7th rehab, and that didn't change until a couple of days ago. She denied being an alcoholic for so long. She is an expert of rehab... she enjoyed being away from the stresses and reality, and is a very impulsive person who doesn't think about decisions to their conclusion/result.

I confided in her before her current rehab assignment that it hasn't worked at all. I endured a lot of verbal abuse after that, but I think she heard what my concern was. 3+ months of rehab that results in instant alcoholism, is not valuable. I feel the current rehab is different... that she is trying to break the physical manifestations of addiction. I am hopeful, but skeptical. I do not believe that there is any relation to the affair, based on the pattern I have seen. But, I am steadfast in thinking this is the moment she will finally embrace sobriety. I will believe this until she has her first drink.

Let me put it this way. If your wife does not comply, you will have more affairs in your future. Are you willing to live like this? Most people ARE NOT, but I assure you that if you don't implement EP's, this will be your future and you will be back here with repeat affairs.

I am very skeptical about the rehab deal. Honestly, I have never heard of someone who went to rehab 8 times in 3 months. How do you know she is not going there to troll for men? Or hook up with the OM?

She does not have his Facebook account. But, that doesn't mean much, I guess... she abandoned her Facebook account almost 2 years ago. I am still connected, and she hasn't had activity in those 2 years.

I thought I eliminated her contact opportunities... we changed her email, and I have full access to the new one. They have not connected via her phone. I have GPS tracking enabled, and she doesn't know it... and she has not once approached his apartment complex since she said she disconnected. She is saying things she never said before, without my behest, which helps soothe my concern.

I have been talking about MB, but again, until she is sober, it won't mean anything.

She doesn't hang with rehab-ites or alcoholics... OM was the only one she connected to. She doesn't go to AA. I am very tuned to my wife, and despite my denial about what things she said and does, I am very distrustful right now. The only thing she has done in the past month is get drunk daily, and all the time. Sadly, that reassures me that she isn't doing things I don't know about. That is why she is in rehab now. She is not with OM, as she is asking me to pick her up tomorrow, as she misses the family and me. The beginning of the affair is when she asked him to pick her up from one of the rehabs instead of me. She knows I will pick her up despite my misgivings about her alcoholism - I've realized it has to be her choice. That is a codependent thing I am working on. I realize that I won't take her to rehab again - I can't be a part of it, as I can't keep enabling her.

I have gotten some nuggets from this thread - I value my marriage. I have been hurt. I have not gotten an answer to my original question, but it doesn't matter. I have a right to insist on marriage protectors for both of us, as they are not controlling impediments. I am not willing to live through multiple affairs. I want the best for us both, not lies and hidden relationships undermining our marriage.

Awesome!


Agree.


Is she DONE with rehab? Has she completed the program or is she just using this as a hotel getaway? how long has she been there?


But it is your choice if you pick her up. Is that a good thing? Has she completed her rehab program? If not, then it is not a good idea to pick her up.


Great! And I agree it doesn't matter. Your feelings are your feelings. And the hurt will go away if you affair proof your marriage and stop the blood letting.

What is your plan if she comes home and gets drunk tomorrow?

MelodyLane - thank you for challenging my responses and defenses.

She called me this evening about rehab, and said she is done... she has heard all the lectures repeatedly over the past rehab internments. I will defend her this last time, and set the boundaries for the future. She thinks she needs outpatient treatment... something I suggested, but did not control her decision a week ago. she and I know she needs help, but only she can choose to pursue it... and I can tell her what my needs are to continue a blessed marriage.

If she comes home and gets drunk tomorrow, I am not sure what to do. I am ready to set boundaries with her, and tell her what I will and won't do for her any more. I am on the brink, and she needs to understand that I won't go to the ends of the earth for her if she wills it.

I am not willing to continue the bloodletting... i want us both to push forward. I know that I am ready... waiting to be sure she is too.

Whom have you exposed to on OM's side?

Have you been tested for STD/I?

Are you in AlAnon? If not, you and your teenage children should go.

When will you be telling your children about her affair?

Please read this and listen to the clips.
Exposing to Children

I have looked up AlAnon meetings, earlier this week, and have them booked on my calendar, but haven't had the chance to go yet.

I have read the threads on exposing A to kids, but still am hesitant. What does it accomplish at this point in recovery?

Let me ask you something. Are your kids intelligent and good? Most are.

Your kids are going to bowl you over with their reaction to exposure. They are going to show their mother so much love, so much moral outrage, so much caring - it will really make you proud to see what good people they are and how well they respond to the truth.

There're also going to be a lot of Aha! moments where they are so grateful to have an explanation. Kids see so much that you haven't seen. She will have let things slip around them.

They aren't idiots. They know when they have a parent who is less than honest with them. In times of trouble that is very scary for kids.

The truth isn't scary though.

We've also never seen anyone become un-wayward without full exposure (including children). So if you plan on hiding it from them, there are a lot of affairs to come. So that means them not only finding out for themselves but also discovering you lied to them the whole time.

I would honestly not be very surprised if they already knew and think they are protecting YOU. That is very common. So is an OM abusing the kids, or planning to, when the WW is very vulnerable.

Children's reactions to exposure tend to be more sensible and naturally just than adults who get all freaked. So many times I have seen a BS say 'they can't handle it' only for their bright little buttons of kids to handle it far, far better than they do.

Sir, how are you "defending" her when she wants to leave rehab because she us tired of it?
The correct word is "enabling" the alcoholism.

You've been married for 17 years and likely enabled this disease the entire marriage.
If you go to AlAnon, they can teach you how to stop enabling her drinking.

As for Dr. Harley's position, he would probably tell you that the "boundary" to have is that if she takes 1 drink, you and the kids leave until she has completed rehab. No exceptions.

You know Dr Harley is not just an infidelity expert - he also ran the largest chain of addiction clinics in his state. He understands the addict mind very well and it's uncannily similar to the wayward mind. His advice is always exposure, exposure, exposure. It's the only thing that busts up that foggy, lazy mindset when you are just running after temptation to the cost of all else.

Do you think you are the first H to be told he is "controlling" for setting healthy boundary as to acceptable behaviour and refusing to cover up her abuse? If I had a penny on these forums for every time a woman running around with other men, dabbling in addictions claims she is being controlled! What on earth would she be like UNCONTROLLED I always think?!

For some reason this fear of being called controlling is a male issue. Men would raher take a dart to the eye than bear these three little syllables on their broad shoulders. Women don't fall for that 'controlling' nonsense when they are being cheated on. However men are wired to make their wives happy and avoid hurting her - women are much happier to be tough when need be.

Did you know you can also contact him for free yourself? He answers questions on the radio and would talk to you if you gave him your number.

What does telling them lies about your wife accomplish? Does giving kids false explanations about the source of problems in your achieve? It only causes your kids confusion and gives your wife the opportunity to bring the OM around your home.

I never exposed to my 6yo nephew because he wasn't on the exposure list, but he is such a clever one and he despises being patronised and brushed off. So he just sat beneath the dining room table and eavesdropped.

As soon as he had a good handle on what was happening, he jumped up and came over to comfort me. He told me straight off the bat that he couldn't see his best friends any more (OW's children), he told me that the APs 'were really stupid' and he approved highly of my plans to change the locks as he felt that would get through to his adored uncle.

It was a far better reaction than most adults. It also seems to have made him very particular about honesty and being a gentleman.

It really angers me when people talk about lying to their kids as though they have the right to give them confusing and deceptive explanations as though they really are stupid.

There's another angle you should check into also:
Run a criminal background check on OM.

When my wife was having her affair, I did a background check and discovered that he was a dangerous felon!

Thanks - good points by everyone.

Kids are aware of the drinking. They think that is the only problem. My wife has been drinking for 20 months - right after the birth of our last child. I drank along with her until early this year. We did not drink much at all (less than 10 drinks a year) before that. I know I'm enabling her, and it won't happen any more. I was burned by not picking her up from one of her rehabs, and OM swooped in to save the day - before the A began. I definitely have baggage over that.

I am struggling with the exposure action, but hear your points, and don't want a serial-cheating spouse. The part that is difficult for me is not that they won't accept it and do everything right, but the fact that they really don't know what's going on. But, other points you've made point to the fact that they see us trying to rebuild our marriage, and probably attribute it all to the alcohol.

I definitely need to go to an Alanon meeting - I didn't even look them up until last week, but there is a meeting just a couple miles from my house every Monday night.

And you're definitely right about the controlling thing, not wanting to hurt my wife. I did understand eventually that it was perfectly healthy to not want OM in our marriage, and expect OM completely cut out.

Also, quite a scary thought - her bringing OM around my house and kids.

Yes that happens rather a lot. People also get worse the longer they stay wayward, they 'harden'.

As an alcoholic, too, the chances of her bringing an abuser round your kids are pretty high. You have to have a very honest relationship with them to protect them.

And keep in mind that they have probably seen or heard things that have made them wonder about an affair, if they haven't already been introduced to the OM. That is usually the case. Your wife is a practicing alcoholic and she wouldn't hesitate to bring him around if she knew she could get away with it. You can't keep it a secret forever and it is much better that they hear it from you. Telling them the truth also prepares for them for eventuality that the OM tries to come back into her life. They will be extra eyes and ears if they know.

There is just no reason not to tell them and many reasons to tell them. Kids can deal with the truth, they can't deal with lies.

Talked some with my wife last night, and she wants to lick the addiction. She's been working overtime to find the solution that will detox her and give her the support to keep dry.

When she was not in throes of being drunk, we talked some about the affair. Regardless of what I want to call it, the truth is that it killed me to find out what happened, and the emotional link was the worst. We keep talking around and around with it. Though OM is cut out, she still has that connection flame, much reduced from where it was, but it still exists. She thinks fondly of what happened, other than how she made me feel. She still insists that it was a great friendship that became inappropriate, and thus working through standard "affair recovery" is not valuable. She also insists that we move past this quickly, and I know that's typical, but won't be possible for me.

I guess my question is if the way to get past this disagreement in our personal realities of what happened can only be helped with a marriage counselor? I thought just sharing how this made me feel would allow us start to heal. Just like it took her 6 weeks to hear how her actions were hurting me, and cut it off with OM, I am waiting for that light to go off in her head so we can be on the same page and begin moving forward.

Has she sobered up yet and begun her plan of recovery or is she still playing head games with you? Because nothing can happen until that occurs. So far she is playing games with you about sobering up and will milk this as long as you continue to enable her.

If she has gone through withdrawal then the next obvious step is to stop drinking and go to AA. Otherwise this is all hopeless and you don't have a marriage, a babysitting position for a selfish, self centered drunk.

"I guess my question is if the way to get past this disagreement in our personal realities of what happened can only be helped with a marriage counselor? "

What if the "counselor" agrees with her and actually encourages her supportive "friendship" with the OM? Because many will! Many will tell you to suck it up and "stop being so controlling." And hint at how "controlling" and "abusive" you are. Very few marriage counselors understand the dynamics of infidelity and even less understand alcoholism. I can't tell you the times a well meaning "counselor" has actually validated marriage wrecking behavior such as affairs, opposite sex friendships and very often a "trial separation." When that happens it becomes almost impossible to persuade the wayward spouse to change.

We can help get your marriage back on track if you will address and RESOLVE the drinking problem first.

I have been sober for 29 years because my caring husband gave me a choice: stop drinking today or get on the bus to your mothers in Texas. I knew he meant it. He had a list of AA meetings in his hand and he drove me to AA meetings every night for 2 weeks. He and my 2 little boys, age 3 and 4 sat out in the parking lot and waited for me.

If my husband had not put his foot down, there is no telling where I would be today. He saved my life.

You need to take a more serious approach to this. She is not going to get serious until you do.

She is trying to sober up, and trying to figure out her recovery. The physical withdrawal is still there, but has been getting better. I don't believe she is playing games with me, but I have been a sucker for her explanations before. She is wanting to go to AA, so perhaps the best course of action for me is to look up the meetings and go with her for the time being. Get her into a pattern of sobering up and keeping her sober.

Are you suggesting I put all the marriage repair on hold until I'm convinced she has sobered up? Obviously continue with the intel and doing the things I should be to reduce the chance of affair relapse... but keep out of talking to her about what happened and how it made me feel?

Ks, yes, your marriage recovery has to wait until she stops drinking. As far as "figuring out recovery" that is your job. She is the drunk here and has absolutely no judgement. She is a sick addict. She needs your assistance. The only thing she is figuring out is how to keep drinking.

I would insist she stop drinking today or find new digs. Otherwise this will go on until she kills herself or ends up in jail.

And she doesn't even have to admit she had an affair, but she does have to agree to abide by all the extraordinary precautions that would protect you from future affairs.

Alright - thanks for the advice. I guess I go into the bunker for awhile on getting my relationship repaired. It has worn on me doing the Plan A with limited, if any, good results (other than OM out of her life).

Let me add that someone who is serious about sobering up, sobers up. She is not serious. And a big reason is because you are not serious. Alcoholics quit drinking when they have no other choice. She knows it is optional so sha can play the system forever.

Exactly. Plan a does not work with an alcoholic. It just wears you down until you hate her.

Thanks for all the input. I know what I need to do to make sure the alcohol is gone forever. Time for some tough love.

You got it! You could be saving her life. That is what a caring spouse does.

Ksummit,

If you attend AlAnon meetings you will meet other spouses of alcoholics and the AlAnon program will help you understand alcoholism and how to stop enabling her behavior

I thought what I was doing was loving my wife and not judging her. But, that obviously didn't work. My wife has been out of rehab for a couple days. The drinks she had were to deal with the physical withdrawal, as she had been on a Librium schedule. And then yesterday, no surprise, she drank so much she was out at 3:00. As I was making the kids dinner around 6:00, I heard a crash upstairs. I found her trying to get up from the bathroom floor. This morning, she has a shiner on her left eye.

What's sad is that I wanted to attend an AlAnon meeting yesterday at 7:00... but couldn't, as I was watching her yet again, and taking care of our toddler.

I realized yesterday before any of this happened that I was not doing the right thing, and what I was doing was enabling her. I needed to be a strong, loving husband and set the boundary for myself and my family. We talked this morning, and her choices are pick a rehab and don't leave till the program is complete, or find another place to live until you do. I realize this is best for the drinking, but am still afraid after the events I started this thread with.

Anyway - I hope to come back here in a few weeks and report that things are improving. Thanks for everyone's advice.

I would get her into rehab TODAY and not take her back until she completes the program. Just let her know she has to sober up now and can't live there if she drinks. You need to do this before she kills herself. Taking lithium and drinking alcohol is a dangerous combination and she needs to be stopped.

When a person goes in to rehab, the purpose is to withdraw from alcohol. She never stays long enough to do that.

Sorry you have to deal with this. And please don't go away. Keep posting and get support here, ok?

I would make sure everyone who knows and cares about your family hears about how falling down drunk she gets.

Especially, make sure everyone knows how she got her black eye.

She could turn that around to say that you hit her and attempt to be enabled for the "Poor Me" abused little wife syndrome. Let the rehab intake counselor be aware too. If she runs into the OM at an AA meeting, she will probably spin a story about how Benedetti and abusive you are and her 13th Stepping White Knight can eagerly come to her rescue.

LTL

Please tell me you're documenting all of this somewhere.
DOCUMENT DOCUMENT DOCUMENT

Those in our circle know how drunk she is getting.

It was literally so bad, that I was not allowed to check her into rehab last Tuesday. They advised we go to the hospital before they could take her. I called a couple other rehabs and they said the same thing. It didn't happen yesterday either - too drunk. I made sure I had time off work in the morning after she slept it off, and got her checked in this morning. I am not happy with myself that I didn't just kick her out when she missed my deadline, though it would have been dragging her blacked out and locking her outside.

I know she is killing herself - from my last post to this one, she probably had less than 500 calories of food - plenty of calories from alcohol. Her hair is starting to fall out, and she is having other physical problems too. All things she knows are related to the drinking.

She wasn't taking lithium and drinking - I was saying she had detox drugs in her system after she checked out of rehab early, and as they wore off, she felt she needed alcohol (surprise!) to deal with the physical reactions.

And, she is offering up honestly to anyone who will listen that her eye is one of the reasons she needs rehab. My daughter and I were downstairs when we heard it happen. I have my alibi.

Back to OM - she has had no direct contact with him since June 20, and 1 failed attempted contact on June 27. However, I learned while talking with my wife yesterday night, as she was slowly sobering up, that her best friend is still in contact with OM, at least a few times since June 20. Her friend revealed a couple days ago to my wife that OM has called very drunk a couple times, is so depressed, suicidal, and just needs to keep in contact with friend so he can be sure and hear that my wife is doing well. I am NOT ok with this, and am going to discuss with her friend, but any strategies for what works? Friend is not my wife, all I think I can do is describe the damage it is doing and ask her not to relay info to my wife related to OM - but can I ask her to cut off communication with OM too? Also, she is married, and having her own marital struggles - I would hate for her to become OM's next victim.

Friend is not sharing the communication to enable my wife - she was surprised about my wife's affair with him too, and thought they were "just friends". But, she is a very naive person. I know she will be upset that she just gave "communication" about OM, and didn't think how it could impact wife and me. I also am afraid she might blindly tell OM about where my wife is in rehab, opening lots of bad possibilities, maybe even a visit to the onsite AA meeting. Maybe I'm underestimating the friend, but I don't want to leave that to chance.

As far as documenting, I have documented a lot, primarily in relation to the contact with OM and things my wife said or did during the time she was seeing him. Should I continue that now? When something comes up in conversation, I do document, but haven't been keeping a daily diary.

Sir,

You really need to visit Alanon.

Sir,

This (highlighted in bold) happened to me. OM became suicidal and "needed" to talk to my ww and tell her goodbye (before he killed himself) and that just re-established contact.

As for your wife's friend, of course you cant ask her to cut off contact with OM. She is a grown up free to do what she wants.

As for documentation, you need to be documenting her behavior with alcohol.
At this point, you may need to soon seek custody of your children through the courts because she is a train wreck and the last thing you need is for her to kill one of your children.

Also, you can bring your kids to the Alanon meeting.
Some of the meetings actually offer childcare; however, they will let you bring your kids in.

When will you be going to AlAnon?

Why hasn't she changed all her contact information? He will continue to call drunk.

Thanks Jedi_Knight -

I have scoped out the AlAnon meetings near me and put them on my calendar. With all the stupidity that has happened in the past 1.5 weeks, I still haven't gotten a chance to attend one. I will as soon as I am able - it will be an easier possibility now.

I certainly can share with friend and ask her not to pass on messages, though? And, reading through some other threads, I can't be positive if WW has sent proxy messages through my friend to OM. Need to do more recon.

Friend is the one getting the calls, not my wife. He has not called or texted her directly since my wife sent him a no contact email. I am reasonably sure there has been no physical contact since then too, as my wife covered her A fog with a drinking fog.

I want to go to the AlAnon meeting that is occurring tonight, but have a potentially late night at work. If I get off at a regular time, I will go tonight.

This friend doesn't sound like a friend of your marriage if she's trying to help reignite the affair. I would cut this friend out if she's going to help destroy your marriage.

I've known her for a long time, and I don't think friend is trying to reignite the affair. I do intend to discuss friends interactions with OM and why she passed on the information she did. I want to understand her explanations and see if I change my mind about her motivations.

Her motivations don't matter. What matters is that your wife CANNOT have any contact with the OM, including hearing updates about him from her friend. You can tell the friend this, and tell her that if it happens again you will cutting off contact with her. That you value the friendship but you value your wife and marriage more.

I agree that my wife cannot have proxy contact with him in any way - no different than direct contact. I am going to talk to friend tonight, and ask that she not share anything she knows of him to her, and find out if there were any messages passed on to him. I will remind her that hearing anything real about OM will trigger feelings in my wife, something detrimental to our recovery.

Went to AlAnon last night... heard a lot of relatable things. It seems the point of AlAnon is to get you to stop enabling, look at your own life & motivations, and set boundaries. I want to learn as much as I can, and see how this could help.

It was a little unnerving being in a room with 17 women and being the only man!

How'd it go with talking to the friend?

She was very open to sharing what was going on. She said that OM is calling her weekly asking for updates and asking her to pass on that he misses my wife. Friend has only talked to wife about it once, as she felt overwhelmed carrying his depression, suicidal thoughts, etc, and thought the insight that OM "didn't get the concept of marriage" would be helpful to my wife.

I told her I couldn't tell her not to contact OM, but I needed her NOT to pass any info about OM to my wife, and equally protect my wife with info she passed to OM - like that she is in rehab now, and where she is. Any time she passes on info like she did, she is triggering the emotions again, making withdrawal/recovery harder. I told her I wanted to tell her and her husband my full story of what happened Saturday and what I know about A, and they were open to it. I think she is in the dark about a lot of details, and I think she can help if she knows more.

She told me some of the details of what OM and her have discussed, and one thing set of flags for me for her own relationship - OM is now starting to invite friend to meet him and have drinks, and is talking about things with her on the phone that I know that she is having troubles with her husband. She has rebuffed him so far.

Good job on going to AlAnon. Can you find an all male group?

Did you warn your friend about how predatory OM are?

Wow, you are right to be concerned on behalf of your friend. OM has demonstrated predatory behaviours and motives...

Can you get friend and her hubby a copy of Surviving an Affair?

I talked to the AlAnon leader, and she said the groups are predominantly female, but there were 3-4 men who did come regularly - just not last night.

I do plan on painting the OM predatory picture - with friends husband in the room, so he knows and can discuss with his wife.

I'm not sure they would read the book if I gave it to them. I was hoping my story and what my friend heard from my wife would help them understand what happened and what could happen in an amazingly short amount of time.

Huge, huge red flags about this "friend." She does not sound like a "friend" but an enemy to your marriage, an enabler. I don't see how it is an act of "friendship" for her to consort with an OM and facilitate an affair. When/if your wife ever sobers up, she will not remember this "friend" fondly. And you should view her as your enemy.

The fact that she is "friends" with the dirtbag OM tells me she is a lowlife too.

Is your wife still in rehab? Is she asking you to pick her up again?

Thanks for your raw truth, MelodyLane.

I think friend is naive... I have talked to her about 2 things, and she seems compliant that what she has done is not a good thing for my wife. She doesn't know as much as I though she did, based on things I've asked her. I am talking to her and her husband tomorrow morning and telling them my experience. I have known her for 13 years, and know she has been my defender more than she has tried to enable my wife.... but she has enabled my wife, and it needs to stop with OM. I have friend in a microscope, and will not have a problem making sure she is not a part of our lives if I believe she can have anything to do with continuing the A.

Can you detail some of the red flags... I don't want to be blindsided by my own wrong perceptions.

My wife is still in rehab... I visited her tonight, and she was pretty out of it on the detox drugs. But, unlike the other times, she is saying the right things and seems to be committed to sticking it out and getting better. And, if she isn't, I am resolute in not letting her back into the home if she doesn't follow through on the boundaries I have set. It hurts and is hard, but I know it is the right thing to do.

KS, there should no boundaries less than completion of the rehab program, a plan for recovery, and an agreement to NEVER drink again. She should not be picked up until she is completely finished with the rehab program and dried out for several weeks. She is a very sick woman.

The red flags I see with the friend are her enabling behaviors. I am shocked she would have even have a friend such as the OM or your wife. That speaks to her character and judgment. She needs to be judged by her actions and they bespeak an enabler, not a friend. That is poison to your marriage.

Alcoholics can ALWAYS say the right thing. We are practiced liars in getting our way. Even a wetbrain knows how to manipulate people.

You will see how serious she really is if she tries to break out early. If she starts asking you to come get her you will know this is another scam.

Ok, weird confession. I was really angry that OM was contacting friend, so I sent a text to OM telling him to stop. He is now texing me back, and I am at a loss at what to do next. Tell him to stop contacting friend, and realize wife is gone forever? Meet him and punch him in the face and threaten lawsuits? I am surprised he responded to me.

The problem is that friend accepts his contact and is facilitating the affair. You can't force him to stay away from the "friend" unfortunately.

Again, thanks for the truths, MelodyLane... I have an alcoholic mother, and recovering alcoholic father, but they can't share these truths with me.

My wife seems to be committed to getting better... but, given the multiple rehabs, I am very skeptical, and planning a relapse. She has not asked me to take her home... and if she does, I am prepared to tell her she needs to find someone else to pick her up, and find another place to stay. It is huge that I am at this point, but I know I can't keep being a drunk babysitter. I am also trying to help friend not be an enabler too... both with the A and with the drinking or picking wife up from rehab.

KS, this is the perfect approach. I will just state again, that talk is meaningless with an alcoholic. Commitment is demonstrated by action, not talk. Only time will tell if she is really serious.


"Friends" don't help friends destroy themselves. Please tell this "friend" that when your wife sobers up and gets all the alcohol out of her system she will not remember her fondly. She will remember that this so called "friend" helped her destroy herself and her marriage. With "friends" like that, who needs enemies? Your wife will dump this loser friend if she ever gets sober, mark my words.

True, I can't force friend to give up contact with OM. When I visited wife tonight, she had a sticky note that had a note to "Contact OM about contacting friend". I confronted her, but she was a little druggy... she said she was going to write him a snail-mail letter to tell him to lay off friend, as they weren't supposed to have any sort of contact. I reminded her, that NC email was one of the important things to our recovery, and she apologized. Made me realize that I need to install more protections and make sure she can't contact OM. But, that is part of the reason I contacted OM, to tell him that although he hadn't contacted my wife directly, he was still indirectly contacting her, and that was not ok. I also was going to talk to friend and husband, and make sure husband was aware of what was going on.

Should I be doing something else at this point, while wife is in rehab?

Sir, I have been to AlAnon meetings and one of the groups was all elderly women! They were a very kind group of ladies.

Let's not forget the old proverb, Birds of a feather flock together.

Friend initially tries to encourage wife away from either drinking or contacting OM. But, after continual pressure or manipulation from my wife, she has on a few occasions given up. I do believe friend is in a similar place to where I was a few weeks/months ago, in thinking she is trying to do the "right" thing, without "controlling" my wife. I am trying to help friend realize there are some times it is ok to not give in to my wife's demands, and restrict her from alcohol or information about OM.

One point worth repeating... my wife lied to friend even more than she lied to me. Friend knew less than I did about A.

Again, I am observing "friend" to see if this is truly naivete, or a wanton enabling of an affair/addiction.

Yes... one woman was elderly... and she came up to me and talked to me after the meeting. Very nice, and not threatening at all.

I am a little on my guard after what happened to my wife... I don't want to get in a vulnerable position and repeat what she did to me.

Dr. Harley generally encourages betrayed spouses to confront the affair partner.
Obviously, this needs to be done in a safe and legal manner.
Something along the lines of: "I love my wife and stay away from her" is pretty clear.

Unfortunately, you can't do the horse head scene from the Godfather because he would just call the police and have you arrested.

One thing you CAN do is post him on www.playerblock.com and post evidence of what a scumbag he is on there also. Playerblock will even send him a text letting him know he is registered as a scumbag!

I would make it a condition that your wife lose this toxic friend. She is bad news for your wife and for you. It is unbelievable that she would consort with the OM and even more astonishing that she would befriend a chronic alcoholic like your wife. Your wife can't afford "friends" like this.

Ksummit,

What concerns me is the prospect of your wife getting out of rehab and running off with OM and your kids.
Is this a possibility?

I think friend is doing what she is doing because she thinks she is helping keep track of OM "safety" for my wife. When I talked to her yesterday, she told me how wife wants to make sure OM doesn't end up killing himself for her. I reminded friend that is not up to my wife, and she has no control over that, and it is likely a manipulation to continue A with wife. She seemed to reluctantly agree.

Again, I want to gauge friend and friend's husband's reaction when I share all the details of what happened... they know about 30%.

Does she believe the OM is your wife's dentist? Does she not know about the affair?

Again, I truly believe friend is living in denial about what my wife did... and actually had/has very little insight into my wife's alcoholism. I have been open and truthful with her/her husband for about a month now. I don't think she is a bad person, just not a solid person who can help my wife see where she has fallen off the track.

Yes, this is a possibility. Wife has shared that OM always shuts down emotions and connection when she talks about our kids. Frightening to think that they could end up with him as their "guardian".

Wife is struggling with staying disconnected, but has since late June. I am checking almost daily to make sure it remains. I even told her I wasn't going to visit her at rehab tonight, and then arrived late to make sure no one else was there to see her. It feels a little dirty, but I know it is necessary right now.

These types of people, that refuse to acknowledge reality, are very dangerous to be around.
She is the kind that would give your wife the car keys after a night of drinking if your wife told her she is "fine"

There is a difference between being a friend and an enabler of self destruction. She is no more a friend than your neighborhood bartender is a friend to your wife

So she doesn't know your wife is an alcoholic even though she has been in rehab 8'times and is drunk every day and has been passing on messages from your wife's creepy scumbag boyfriend. And this is just a person with "little insight?"

NO SIr.

You are in denial here when you can see that the actions of this woman are toxic and destructive to your wife, you and your children. You are to judge her by her intent when you should be judging her by her actions.

This is a dangerous person who should be eliminated from your lives.

Friend is very naive - she accepts what my wife says 99% of the time as 100% fact. I will share my story and experience, as she and husband are also very responsive to my thoughts... I will only tell them my truth/reality, and what I think needs to happen for wife/my reconciliation. I will gauge how they react, and watch what their actions are.

After telling friend all of these things, if I see her enabling re-contact with OM, that will be a violation of my wife and I reconciling, and I will do whatever is necessary to make sure she does not enable wife with A again.

She is the kind of "friend" who would give a loaded gun to a suicidal person.

Jedi - you might be right. I feel bad when I bar my wife from driving after she has been drinking... but know it is the right thing, and hold onto that despite the verbal abuse.

What is her completion/ release date from rehab?

I hear you, MelodyLane - friend has passed on 1 message to wife, after about 10 phone calls from OM. That was not acceptable. I told her as much. Friend knows about rehab, but is lost in her own troubles.

I appreciate your reality-checks... but, I am also at that same place... looking for a reason to think friend is not a good influence, and an enabler. I have learned so much this year, and have moved past so much to realize the truth... and realize that I still have so much to learn. I am trying to believe that friend needs that grace to get to the same place I am.

Completion is minimum 2 weeks from admit, followed by 2 weeks of outpatient/AA. Thus, rehab checkout before Aug 21 is grounds for "you can't come home". And, even if checkout at Aug 21, if no followup with outpatient/AA, then also grounds for "you can't come home".

I re-read this, and realize how real it is what you are saying. It doesn't matter what friend is "trying" to do, rather what her reality is and what she is capable of letting my wife do because of enabling.

I encourage you to email Dr. Harley @ (mbradio@marriagebuilders.com) and ask him if you should seek some type of legal custody if she refuses to complete rehab or end her affair; you can phrase the letter something like this (make sure he gats all the essential facts and if you include your phone number he may call you) You can phrase it anyway you like, I just noted some facts below:

Dear Dr. Harley,

I have been on your forum for the past couple weeks.
I have been married 17 years and have 4 children.
My wife is having an affair with a man she met in a rehab center.

She is an alcoholic and has been in and out of rehab for the past several months; in the past she has refused to complete the program and I sign her out and take her home.

I was advised by members of your Forum to attend AlAnon and I attended my first meeting a couple days ago.

She recently entered rehab again and is scheduled to be released on August 21.

Meanwhile, her affair partner continues efforts to keep the affair active by sending text messages to my wife's friend.

How do you recommend I treat my wife when she is released from rehab?

If she refuses to complete rehab should I seek legal counsel for custody of my children?

Should I request she end her affair (write a No Contact Letter) and agree to your program in SAA book prior to bringing her home from rehab?

My number is: -----------

Good deal. And I would make it mandatory that she has to move out immediately if she drinks again. A big mistake that spouses make is to insist the alcoholic go to meetings but not make it a boundary that they stop drinking. Hold her feet to the fire on that one.

Thanks to both of you... you are helping me see what it means to keep loving my wife, but in a tough and boundaried way.

Maybe I do need to connect with Dr. Harley and see what his advice is about my situation... I do know that I won't accept relapse and drinking again. I am fed up with that, and know what I have been doing is not protecting myself or my kids.

You need to email him ASAP so you have guidance from him and a plan on how to move forward.

MelodyLane - I re-read your sample letter that you wrote above. Didn't my wife already send a no contact letter with the email she sent in late June stating do not contact?

Talked with friend and husband today, and gave them all the details about what happened. Her friend knew some, but not all of what I shared. I believe she is not trying to enable her friend, and do think she is being naive. Her husband doesn't want her contacted by OM, but doesn't seem to want to tell his wife that. Friend doesn't seem to want to stay connected either, so I'm not sure why she is. I repeated that it was not ok to pass on info to my wife or to OM about my wife.

She agreed, but asked what to do if/when wife asks to pass on a message, or asks for OM's contact info. She doesn't want to be "controlling". I repeated that no contact was the only way my marriage is restored, and that it was ok for friend to not pass on the info, as that was more about setting boundaries than being controlling.

Not sure I got through to her, and wanted to ask if you guys think there was a better way to frame that? Or encourage husband to be a man and ask his wife to dump the OM information and contact? I think if I can help her and her husband see the potential danger to them + my wife having an A relapse, they would follow through and destroy contact info and refuse to accept contact from OM.

Ks, I would cut off these people entirely and make that a condition with your wife. The woman is dangerously ignorant. Would she consider it "controlling" to refuse to give a suicidal person a gun? Because that is what she is doing to you and your wife. She is too stupid to be in your lives and has already caused enough damage.

That seems pretty harsh for someone who is ignorant. I think they are teachable, and they want the best for my wife too. I was very ignorant about all sorts of A actions, and believed my wife too. Friend has been manipulated by my wife just like I have. I am waking up, because I have been working hard at figuring this out. I believe friend can be redeemed too and learn to not be codependent, and learn to help be a GOOD support for my wife.

Am I completely mad to believe that?

Yes, you are mad. Your lives are in a state of crisis and you don't have the energy or time to educate a dangerously ignorant person. This woman has been toxic to your wife and your marriage. You can't afford that.

You should judge her by her actions not her stated intentions. She HAS NOT been supportive in the least. She has been poison.

Any adult who has to be "educated" to not facilitate an affair with a married person is beyond hope. She doesn't know right from wrong and as such, is a dangerous person who can't be trusted. The fact that you can't see this scares me.

"That seems pretty harsh for someone who is ignorant"

I am applying the "friends" principles to suicide. She believes it would be 'controlling" not to facilitate your wife's self destructive behavior, ie: her affair. That is about as crazy as it gets. Your wife needs to be around women who have common sense and practice principles of right and wrong. That is the exact opposite of this "friend."

Sir, it isnt your job to teach the friend how to be redeemed and not be codependent.
Instead of focusing on her, I suggest you focus on yourself and work on fixing your codependency issues before teaching others.

The affair aside, you have obviously been an enabler of your wife's drinking. Instead of becoming a teacher, first become a student of AlAnon principles.

Maybe it isn't my job to educate, but I can see so much in friend that was the same person I was 6 months ago in regards to my wife. Friend was not aware of alcoholism, as until January, it never occurred during the day, only after the kids had been put to bed. Wife was very secretive about it, and friend has her own problems.

I am also trying to see how this plays out - cutting out OM is obvious for me and wife. How would I convince her friend is no longer a part of her life...

I sincerely hope you focus on your marriage and your alcoholic wife instead of this "friend." Tell your wife that in addition to stopping drinking and having contact with the OM, she needs to find a new "friend." It is disturbing to me that we have discussed this "friend" for 2 pages of your thread instead of your real problems.

KS, when I sobered up in AA, I had a hard time navigating life for the first few years, because I was so out of touch with reality that I had to learn to think a new way. It is doubly hard for a spouse of an alcoholic because they have on the receiving end of crazy behavior for so long. I think the fact that we have been discussing whether a person who has knowingly facilitated an affair because she "didn't want to be controlling" should remain in your wife's life is a demonstration of this dynamic. I am sure there is some good in this friend, but the bad parts are so destructive, I hope you can rethink your feelings about her.

I hear what you are saying - just acknowledging that it is very hard to follow through with that action. I don't know how I get my wife on the same page with dumping best friend, unlike disconnecting from OM. Friend was not enabling with A while it occurred - she has been in a bad place since wife and OM stopped connecting. But, like me, friend has been manipulated and learning how to navigate dealing with wife in a healthy manner. You see how I've struggled just with the alcoholism, and just a few days ago finally set myself to do the right thing with wife.

And yes, I need to deal with my own problems and have learned a lot here. My wife is now in rehab, and I'm in a holding pattern for trying to repair my marriage once she returns. What should I be doing now to prepare for resumption of rebuilding my marriage in a couple weeks?

But the friend is a friend of the OM, passed on messages to your wife from the OM and just told you yesterday that she felt it would be "controlling" to do otherwise. How can we get past this because I am exhausted trying to show you how toxic this friend is.

KSummit, how can this be true? Did she ask your opinion before she had an affair? Did she copy you in on the email announcing that she was revoking your marriage vows?

Yes - passed on one message. Foolish and stupid and enabling. But, you're also asking me to blow up her support structure, something I don't know how to do without pushing wife away too. How do I get my wife to agree with cutting ties with best friend too?

Nononono!! I don't want to blow up her support structure at all. I want you to eliminate a resource that is NOT supportive in the least. She is not "foolish," she is dangerous.

I would encourage your wife to call AA and get matched up with a female sponsor. Most AA hotlines will assign a temp sponsor and they choose women who have some good sobriety under their belts. Can you suggest this to her?

From that perspective, I did not have a part to play - but based on the MB principles, I did. I was not meeting some needs of my wife, not protecting the marriage from A opportunities... so maybe I phrased it wrong, but I now know more about how to protect my marriage.

Yes, I will suggest getting an AA sponsor. I was planning on going with her every night for 2 weeks after she gets out of rehab, and encouraging this.

Sir, I hope you start attending AlAnon meetings because you are not thinking clearly.
Blow up her support structure?
She doesnt have a "support structure." Her friend is a support structure as much as the friendly man behind the counter at the liquor store who converses with her.
Having am smile and talking to someone does not a "friend" make.

So tonight, while talking to my wife, I find out she is trying to get friend to give her OM contact info so wife can "write a mail to cuss him out". I express displeasure and remind her of No Contact email. She rails me, that this is what she needs for closure, but friend has deleted contact info.... wife accuses me of colluding with friend to delete OM info. I did almost exactly that - told friend it was not healthy or ok to continue to contact affair partner. She agreed and deleted contact info, despite wife manipulating and asking for it.

I am at a loss... I know rehabs are hard, but I have been living in Plan A for almost 3 months now... it is hard to continue. I want to run away. I am getting tired of unrequited love while being married.

Did you email Dr. Harley as I suggested?
Have you been attending AlAnon meetings?

Also, did you get any ADs to help you through this tough time?

No one said Plan A was easy, and unrequited love is the hardest part of it. But knowing that you are giving 100% best effort to recover your marriage will make you a better person and a better husband down the road. That and faithfully following the steps of the MB program.

Many of us have been in the trenches of Plan A and it is not fun. Worst memories of my life, that's for sure. But those who make it through are glad that they took the hard road.

When my wife left me for another man, I was convinced she would never fall back in love with me and that the destruction wrought on our marriage by the affair was too much to overcome. Today we are as much in love with each other as when we met as teenagers.

Put faith in the process. Whatever the outcome, you come out better for it.

I did send an email to Dr Harley. Waiting to hear back.

I haven't had another scheduled AlAnon meeting yet - Thursday.

I did get ADs early on, but don't feel the need anymore. Initially, I almost couldn't function, living with the crushing anxiety and realization about what had happened/what was continuing to happen. They helped during that time, but had side effects I didn't like. I've been off for awhile, and think I am thinking clearly again. The one thing I'm struggling with is turning off my mind at night, and have suffered with sleeping issues. I just got a sleeping pill prescription yesterday, so I hope that's not an issue anymore.

I started doing Plan A almost immediately after my D-Day, as it seemed obvious I wanted to win her back 100%. It has been hard because this has dragged on almost 3 months now, and I'm just now hearing some of the detachment hurts from her now, at an intensity I would have expected them in the first couple weeks, but not now. I know the alcohol was her way of hiding from dealing with it, and she's drying out now, so perhaps that was just a pause button on the disconnect phase.

And I know it will make me a better husband, and all the positive things. It has just gotten harder to do than it was in the first couple weeks. It would feel better if I started seeing some changes coming from her, but I haven't yet. I guess I need to remain patient and trust this will work.

Is, plan a is not appropriate with an alcoholic because they do not have normal emotions. Dr H does not recommend his program with an alcoholic until their alcoholism has been arrested. When that happens, it is either plan recovery or a separation.

Were you on the show today? What did you think?

KS, I heard your call today. It sounds like it went very well. One thing I didn't hear addressed on the air was exposure of the affair to your children? Did Dr Harley address this with you?

Yes, I was on the show today. I thought a lot of what he said was very helpful. I want to listen to it again and take some notes, but it seems the current posting was cut off somewhere in the middle. Any idea if there is another way to get a hold of the recording?

He didn't address the exposure - I forgot that piece when I sent the email. Definitely shocking to get a call the day after I sent the email!

The rebroadcast is cut off?


He is pretty adamant about exposure to your children, so if you still don't believe me, I would urge you to write him. That is an important step for your kids and your wife.

I have it on my list and will post it as soon as it is available.

Another benefit of exposing the affair to your children is that your 13 year old daughter will hold her accountable. Teenage girls are HOLY HELL on affairs!

Did you base your letter to Dr. Harley on the sample I posted to you earlier?
I didnt include the topic of exposure in that post because Dr. Harley is very clear about exposure. "Expose it far and wide," is what is repeatedly said on his radio show.

Here's your show. Radio Clip of KSummit's Show

Sad and pathetic update.

One day after talking with Dr. Harley, my wife started bugging me to bring her home. She said she was still withdrawing, but the rehab wouldn't give her any detox meds since her blood perssure was low. I resisted all the manipulations and horrible things she said. I reminded her that she committed to 2 weeks, or leave. She hung up, and called me a few hours later saying she had checked herself out AMA. I validated by calling the rehab that she had checked out. I left her there a couple hours until it got dark, then went to the rehab and found her there. I ended up taking her home. That's the pathetic part - I couldn't hold to my own boundaries.

She went to our doctor the next morning and admitted about the drinking and asked if she could safely detox at home. The doctor gave her detox drugs, and we tried that night, and it worked. The next day, Friday, she went without a drink until I got home. I gave her the detox drugs in the evening. Several hours later, she said they weren't working, and she needed alcohol instead. I refused to get any. She said she was going to leave, and I didn't stop her, except to grab all the car keys since she was on detox drugs. She walked out the front door... no idea where she was headed, but I didn't lock the door. My son came home from work, and then left for a lock-in, and locked the door. I eventually went to sleep.

My wife apparently had only hidden in the back yard, and was upset the door was locked. Assumed I did it on purpose. She rang the doorbell, threw things at our bedroom window, but I didn't hear her over the white noise machine. She then broke my office window downstairs and broke into the house - cutting herself in the process. I didn't hear her come in the room and grab my phone - she later claimed she did it so she could read my texts to her friend about my wife. I had nothing to hide. I later realized she was probably searching for OM contact information, since I told her I had it... I had deleted it a week earlier. She packed her bags, and left in her car.

She went to the local convenience mart, but they told her she couldn't buy alcohol in Texas after midnight. So, logically, she decided to drive to OM's bar, and get a drink there. She drove there, and OM wasn't there, to her disappointment. This was the 4th time in a little over a week she had tried to contact OM. While there, wife wrote OM a love letter - one I discovered after she came home the next day. How could she do that after 2 weeks of no contact - is that explained by the alcoholism?

Anyway, the next couple days, she did good with the detox drugs, and I was naively hopeful. On Monday, she was very busy, and I thought things were going well. I needed her to pick me up at the train station at 5:15, so I called her at 4:45. She sounded good. Then she didn't show up... and I waited. I called her at 5:30, and she didn't answer. Shortly after that, my 13 year old called me and said her mom was acting weird. I told her to tell mom to call me. My wife called me, and I asked how she was. She sounded completely plastered, and she then realized she forgot to pick me up, so said she was on her way - I told her no way, I had another ride and didn't need her. She didn't listen, and began driving to the train station - she called me multiple times en route, and I could tell she was way beyond sober.

She ended up in a parking lot 2 miles away, and I told her to stay put. I walked to her location, and arrived just as a police officer arrived. I protected her from getting a DWI, but I still had to take her to the emergency room - 0.36 BAC, over 4X the legal limit.

That cemented my resolve... I took the next day off work to make sure she found a rehab. My requirements, out of Dallas, and for as long as Insurance covered or 28 days. So, she flew out on Wednesday, and has been in rehab for 3 full days. Her release date is 9/17, and I am finally at a place I can leave her where she is. The older kids and I are all in the same place. She can't get home in a few hours or via taxi, as she has no money to head home, and is 3.5 hours away. I have talked to her and supported her, and thankfully have not heard anything from her about ending rehab early.

All that being said, I have realized some things about my marriage... I have given a lot, even in her sober times, and I am the giver, and she is the taker. I have had amazing resiliency to keep our relationship alive, but now after the addiction and the A, I am not sure I want to keep going. We have been together for half of my life, and have 4 beautiful children, but I find myself fantasizing about someone who might actually respond positively to my love. I have to wait out the next 25 days to see if my wife is willing to do what is necessary, but I'm afraid even after she returns, I will finally see her for what she really is, vs what I have made her to be over the past 5-6 years.

Just wanted to share my experience with everyone... I am near the bottom, and still willing to do whatever it takes to save my marriage, but not sure I want to do that anymore either.

KS, so sorry to hear this latest news. But very proud of your smart, quick action by socking her into treatment again. Your marriage won't make it if she doesn't sober up. I am sorry to say that that does not look hopeful. In your position, I would start looking at divorce.

I think it is a longshot that your marriage will ever make it. It will take a HUGE SHOCK to ever wake her up, such as jail, divorce, etc. I am sorry you covered up for her when the police came. I know that sounds very harsh, but jail has saved the life of many alcoholics because it was the ONLY THING that woke them up.

I would encourage you to file for divorce and start making plans to protect yourself financially and legally before she ruins your life.

As far as being a taker and giver, you probably know that can't be applied here. In this situation, you have been the enabler [FORMER] and she is the sick alcoholic.

It is truly amazing how far you have come since you first arrived, my friend...

Most alcoholics don't make it. Your wife's situation does not look hopeful.

Yes... amazingly, it has been my minor children, 16 and 13 who have helped me see reality. I have heard their teenage complaining, but have heard truth in their reality, and know that they have been hurt immensely by their mom, and they are willing to do more than me to make things right... which resets my codependent reality, and makes me realize that I need to cut bait and move to a healthy reality. I am holding on to a last grasp - a sliver of hopefulness that is my wife's 10th time in rehab. I have learned so much, and am hopeful for the healing, but am realistic, and am looking for the tell-tale signs of failure to heal.

Like I said before, I have 25 days to see her do "her best". I am still connected to her emotionally, which will be really hard to break. But, I have 4 lives in the balance, and can't keep enabling. Thanks for keeping it real from the beginning, Melody. It's been hard, but I need to hear it.

.36????

After six years in the field I've only seen one person approach a near .40 and that was a severe lifelong alcoholic.

This woman will drink herself to death very soon.

I'm sorry this is happening to you. Honestly, I'd recommend divorce. She is so sick that she must face the REALITY of losing her family. Not the threat, the reality.

I dealt with multiple impaireds nightly and never a female that high of a BAC I am speechless she is still alive. The average woman is falling down at .06-0.08.

Yes, I know I protected her... I was protecting the family too, since I know how expensive a DWI is. What happened resolved me, and I am ok that I protected the family from that financial black hole.

I am not hopeful she will be resolved, after this 10th rehab... I have a sliver of hope, mainly because I love my wife. But, I am finally to a point that I am ready to do what is right for my family, and push her out, as sad as that sounds.

I would suggest you didn't protect her or the family by doing that. If she is ordered by a judge to stay sober she would have to either stay sober or go to jail. The lives of many alcoholics have been saved by going to JAIL. It has also protected the lives of innocent bystanders who might be killed by the drunk.

If this happens again, please don't enable her. She desperately needs to go to jail.

Yes, I know I shouldn't protect her... but, I now by protecting her, I am protecting my family's finances... I am not even sure jail would convince her she is at the bottom.

I will not enable her again. I am emboldened to let her tie her own noose around her own neck.

I have my own crap where I have been to jail... I know it saved my life, because that was a huge wakeup call. I have to believe it would do the same for my wife.

I agree that .36 is a huge statement... though late May she was at over .4, and blamed me for taking her to the ER... I should have learned sooner.

Someone who achieves those intense and Life Threatening B.A.C. Levels has, for a Long Time developed a significant tolerance level.

Jail would have been so kind of an option for her.

No, DUI's do not have to be excessively expenssve. They only get costly when trying to avoid the legal repercussions of their harmful behavior and want to minimize the punitive actions as much as possible.

Firstly, she most likely Will NOT make it through the next 25 Days.

The best predictor of future behavior is past relevant behavior.

You are viewing her recovery potential through hopeful filled rose colored glasses. SHE is NOT Serious about sobriety..... Yet.

What is your plan if, (When), she relapses again?

LTL

This is no exaggeration. My younger brother died this way. He so badly damaged his liver that he developed esophageal varices that hemmorrhaged and he bled to death at the age of 45.

Have you priced out funerals? Your average funeral runs about $10,000. That is where this is headed. Jail would be a walk in the park compared to that.

Another likely thing to happen is that she will kill one of your kids or another driver while drunk driving. I know a woman in AA who backed over and killed a little toddler while drunk. I met her 20 years later and her eyes were dead with grief.

Jail is great medicine for an alcoholic. Sometimes better than treatment centers.

Are you attending regular Alanon Meetings?

You are sucked in So Deep as her enabler and barely have scratched the surface recognizing how deeply that affects you And Your Children.

Sometimes too, no matter how entrenched in the relationship you feel you are, you just have to realize that the other spouse is a lost cause and Completely detach or they will drown you for clinging on with hope till it's too late.

She WILL cause further serious Emotional AND Financial upheaval in you and your childrens live.

I have been involved in AA for over 20 years and still attend regular meetings. My wife relapsed after 10 years of sobriety and as of today, she hasn't even made as much as one phone call to our 11 year old son in over 560 days because she is living contently with her drinking current affair POSOM.

I previously had an enmeshed relationship with another woman, who supposedly had 7 years sobriety and relapsed after several months of us going out regularly and she routinely had B.A.C. levels as High as .48

Yes, you read that correctly. .48

When someone drinks to that excess..... Run!!!

LTL

I am hopeful because of the change of what my wife is saying... until recently, she said she wanted to drink, and now says she doesn't, and is an alcoholic. The hope is tempered, because I've been hopeful for a very long time, and had that trampled over and over again.

As a nice reminder, the day my wife drove to pick me up at the train station, she hit the neighbors fence and the edge of our garage, damaging her car. Probably about $2500 worth of damage to her car - but I got to enjoy 4 hours of work yesterday repairing the neighbors fence, thinking the whole time how this was not something I did, but I had to fix it anyway - not something I want to keep doing, especially if it ends up as legal issues or somebody dying.

I have thought about all the questions you have mentioned - wife in jail, someone dying, leaving rehab early, etc. The older kids and I continue to talk and are all on the same page. Wife's friend is in a similar place of disconnect. Until what happened to me recently, my own state of disconnect was not real - I am holding on to her by a thread, but don't think I can deal with another fall off the wagon, alcohol or A. But, I have started pushing my emotions off and trying to do what is right for myself and my family.

I have not been able to attend AlAnon the last 2 weeks, as both days involved dealing with my wife. I found another meeting closer to home that meets on Monday, and my wife's friend and I will both be attending.

Since February, I know for a fact my wife has had 2 incidents of BAC at .36 and .41. Those were ER stays. She has been in the ER 2 other times when I was not in the state, and I assume they were at similar levels. By my count, she has been around this point probably 10-12 times in 2014.

Anyway, as hard as it is to take care of my kids solo, it is harder to do that while babysitting a drunk wife or tracking down a cheating wife. The idea of divorce seemed far fetched until the past week, but it's become real. My trigger point to move on that will be what happens with this rehab. Is that a bad idea?

Talk is meaningless with an alcoholic. Only actions count. Months of sobriety would give me hope. Anything less than that is nothing.

I am sorry, but nothing has changed here. You must go by what she DOES and not by what she says.

Sir, I caution you about spending this time with your wifes friend.
There is too much potential for loose boundaries and this woman has already demonstrated that she has very loose boundaries by texting with the OM regularly instead of guarding her marriage.
Dont spend any time alone with her and give the list of alanon meetings to HER HUSBAND

Sir, that is complete BS.
STOP making excuses for your choices to enable and protect your wifes drinking!

You all are right. The huge financial burden that has hit me this year has sometimes caused the wrong focus. And it is hard to let her live with such a harsh result, but understand it might have been the right wake up call.

And I realize that talk is meaningless unless backed up by actions... all I am saying is that Feb-July, my wife didn't think anything was wrong with her drinking... And in the past month or so, she has been saying she is tired of being drunk, and hurting everyone and herself. The tone has changed. Yes, it still needs to be backed by an extended period of sobriety. I am less hopeful now than I was months ago, but think what she is saying may be her ticket out.

And yes, I am VERY careful around her friend. I have been even years ago when I thought I had a good relationship with my wife. I have no intention of following in my wife's footsteps - and make sure friends husband is very aware of what is going on. I have never been alone with friend - always an older kid or adult around. That's a rule I have held to with all women.

Alcoholics are really good at saying stuff like this and never following through. You were "hopeful" based on her "talk" the last time too, remember? And she just got out and got drunk. So please don't get distracted by her talk. It means nothing.

Yes, you're right MelodyLane. I'm at a point that I want to be hopeful, but have too many things that have happened to be blind about what the likely outcome is. When my view changes from hopeful to not, that is the beginning of the end...

I think that hope is good, but it needs to be realistic. False hope just leads to disappointment. False hope causes people to make bad decisions because they don't face the facts. Good decisions are based on facts and a realistic approach to the situation.

Do your kids attend AlAnon with you? I also caution you on going to a meeting alone with your wife's friend.

I am not really going "alone" with the friend - we are both arriving at a group meeting separately. The other AlAnon location is a little farther away, and this one is just a couple minutes from my house. I do want to bring my 13 year old daughter, but have only been to 1 meeting so far. Next one is this Monday.

Good, I think it's smart to have your children attend so they can understand the effects of alcoholism.

Sir,
I would bring your 13 year old daughter.
They also have "AlaTeen" meetings she can attend; one of my local high schools has them during the lunch hour at school.

Also, you should NOT be meeting with this woman at AlAnon (unless her husband comes with her)
There are red flags all over this woman and your closeness to her.

I don't think I have false hope. It's hope that this will work, but a keen focus on what I will need to do if/when this fails like the other rehabs did. I have seen a side of my wife that I don't want to continue, and I can't live with.

All this, and I still get to deal with the A and try to move past that too.

Sir, your problem is that you keep trying to think that you can control her drinking and the consequences from her drinking and the fact is you have NO control.
Until you learn that, it will continue to be a vicious cycle

I cannot find any AlaTeens within 30 minutes of our house. I do want to brink her to AlAnon and will.

I appreciate the concern for wife's friend and my "closeness" with her. What red flags are you seeing? I truly can't stomach the idea of having any emotional or other inappropriate connection with friend... not my cup of tea.

I don't think I'm trying to control her drinking - just because I'm hopeful she will help herself with this rehab? I know I have no control, which is why I'm at a point that I will disconnect from her, and likely have to separate/divorce, as I can't live with her continuing what she has been doing.

Sir, these meetings are breeding grounds for affairs.
There are numerous red flags and the fact you dont recognize any shows your lack of boundaries

Sir, you've been protecting her from the consequences of her drinking for a long time.
That's called damage control.
Your latest excuse was to be noble and protect the family finances.

Ok, so if I'm not spending alone time with her, and being up-front with her husband when I am the same place as her (only the AlAnon meeting), I'm not understanding how I am not being careful with boundaries? I am very careful with friend and very vigilant to not get in a sticky situation.

I also understand these meetings contain many vulnerable people, creating opportunity for affairs. I was uncomfortable with my first AlAnon meeting because I was the only man. The only woman that talked to me that day that I let my guard down a little was a 75 year old. I actually want to bring my daughter both for her sake, and as a protection for myself.

Yes, I had been. And yes, I may have been the reason the cop didn't haul her in. I can't deny anything you're saying, only to state that's not what I want to do anymore.

I am feeling such a loss of hope right now. I love my wife... I don't want to divorce her, but am afraid that will be my only choice soon. I am having trouble being there for my kids... I appreciate the honesty I am hearing, but this is really hard.

I am sorry you are feeling down, my friend. But please know that your future is brighter today than it was 3 months ago. Your life has been hell. You have a chance to get out of this nightmare, whether it is with your wife or without her. I think it is a great thing that she is gone for a month because this gives you the chance to detach emotionally so you can make good decisions about you and your children.

Sir,
This is how affairs start.
Two people complain to each other about their spouses. You even bring (or meet) a woman at the meeting to help fix your spouse.

The woman you are meeting was texting the OM.
Most married women who guard their marriages would not be texting this type of guy, or any single guy.

There are red flags all over this relationship.

Cut it off and end it.

Focus on going to Alanon with your daughter

Well then STOP doing it!

Tonight, OM sent a group text to me, wife's friend, and wife. He stated his love for wife, and how he would do anything to end her suffering, and how he did not want to communicate with anyone but wife directly - messages from me or wife's friend were "tearing him apart - and we deserve better".

Not sure why he texted out of the blue - friend and I have not been in any contact with him at all, and I know wife hasn't.

Message did not get to wife - like I said before, the number is blocked. Friend got it and was very angry, and her husband wanted to go with me to find the guy and "rough him up".

I did respond and told him I'm sorry he decided to have an affair with a married woman and then expect that to work out. I told him wife is ashamed and knows her relationship with him was wrong. I told him to never contact her again.

Why won't this guy quit?

Because he is a selfish, entitled, loser [censored]. Can you block this dirtbag?

I should block him too? It doesn't hurt me getting texts like that. It reeks of desperation, and actually helps me to see him suffering. I know that makes me bad.

You were very polite and perhaps a little too polite.
Remind me...was this man exposed? Did you expose him on www.cheaterville.com for all of his friends and family to see?

My suggestion to you is to watch The Godfather movie and then consider just how polite you need to be to this worthless POS

Winning a war does not make you "bad."
It would be evil for you to wish him to conquer.

I said a few more things, I just paraphrased. I was very truthful, and a lot of the facts were very cutting. Yes, I thought about the Cheaterville thing, but can't find a picture of him anywhere. My wife didn't have one that I could find on her phone, and googling and facebooking didn't turn up anything. If I could find one, i would post the story. I know 3 people by his name in our town of 40,000.

Thanks Jedi. I am happy to be winning, and want him to suffer more than I have. But, I am not a vindictive person. I know when my wife has a clear head, I will be able to woo her with my love - my Plan A. And it feels good to do those things for her. I know I can overwhelm his lacking personality/morals.

Ok, so it's beginning with my wife again. I found a women's only Christian facility 5 hours from home, in the middle of the Texas Hill Country. Unfortunately, they only do the program, no medical detox. My understanding while talking with the intake counselor was they would do medical detox at a hospital-type facility. What ended up happening is they sent her to a different rehab that does medical detox - so, she is having to partake in the 12-step program, etc, while she is on doctor-supervised medication. The women's facility won't take her in until 24 hours after her last medication. That last medication was last night, and they told my wife she would be transported first thing in the morning tomorrow.

Well, wife hates the non-christian program so much, she has been calling and complaining, crying, hanging up on me, etc. I have been supportive and understanding over the phone, but have not encouraged or said anything to make her think I would be ok with her checking out.

My last phone call with her a couple hours ago was how if the women's facility was anything like where she is now, she will check out and figure out what to do next, since she knows she is not welcome home. She then hung up on me before I could save a word.

It feels like manipulation and guilt trips, and I have no intention of taking her home til she fulfills her commitment to 28 full days in the program. I will not be a party to her killing herself or someone else, or worse, hurting my kids. That's what I'm prepared to do. If she checks out, she has her cell, some small amount of cash, and a few credit cards... I'm prepared to shut them all down.

But, talking with Dr Harley, it sounded like he felt I should keep being patient and loving, and just keep insisting on rehab for her own good until she finished. It didn't sound like he thought we were ready for separation or Plan B. So, I'm confused as to what I should do if she does check out early. I don't want to enable her or return to the crappy pattern of daily drinking, but I don't want to hear about her dead or assaulted on the side of some highway either. I'm thinking sending her to a lock-up rehab would have been the safest route.

I re-listened to the radio program, and I'm still a little confused. Dr Harley suggested seeing how things work out if she checks out early, but demand no more drinking and no more OM contact, or choice will be return to rehab or you lose me (Plan B). Sound right?

Were you on today's show?

Never mind you're talking about your show a couple of weeks ago, correct?

Radio Clip of KSummit's Show
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4

Yes, correct. Sorry I didn't qualify that it was my call-in. I am anticipating that my wife may take a drastic action, and want to make sure I do the right thing for me and my family, and do the right thing for her. What I re-listened to about the call I made to Dr Harley is a little confusing as to what I should do next.

What you should do is nothing. Dr Harley did not EVER tell you to check her out before her program is done. If she wants to check out, that is her prerogative. Wish her well.

I know he didn't say check her out, but if she checks out on her own, just say "Good Luck!"? Cancel all credit cards and cell phone service?

Sure. Just tell her good luck. He told you to check her right back into a treatment center if she starts drinking again, so if she checks out early, you already KNOW that is her plan.

I wouldn't cancel her phone service and maybe leave her one credit card with a few hundred on it. Cancel the others.

Well, I asked her big sister to call her if she could, and wife's reaction to her was better than to me or wife's friend. She heard more what her sister said as encouragement, and changed her tune when I talked to her next. She is still very sad and homesick, and nervous about going to yet another rehab (transfer to women's rehab Tuesday morning), but I am glad she got past this bump. No doubt there will be more... I do think a women's-only (as suggested by Dr Harley) Christian program will be better for her than other places.

I also just got LoveBusters and His Needs, Her Needs in the mail. Reading a bit, but waiting for SAA tomorrow.

Really wish you would stop the enabling. There was no need to react to your wife's call today. As long as she believes you will panic when she presses your buttons, she will continue playing head games with you.

I dont know what is better.
My MIL went to a womens only (court ordered: complete the rehab or go to jail offer) and she celebrated her release by getting drunk and evicted from her county owned apartment.

As an outsider looking in, reading your thread, all I can offer is advice to ATTEND AL-ANON MEETINGS AND HAVE YOUR DAUGHTER ATTEND WITH YOU. GET HER INTO ALATEEN ALSO.

Sir,

When you go to the AlAnon meeting ask the group for a book titled "One Day At A Time in AlAnon."
I think it would help you during these times.

Womens only is always better for women, because so many affairs start in co-ed groups. As he has found out the hard way!

Even so, I doubt his wife will ever get sober.

Also, keep a daily journal of when she is in rehab, out of the home, drinking, etc. --Out of reach and without her knowledge.

Attended my second AlAnon tonight... couldn't bring my 13 year old, as she had a conflict. Again, only man in the room. But, heard some more good stories and insights... words of experience. I do have a lot to learn and focus on myself and my choices.

Thanks, I have been since D-Day. It works as both a log of what has happened, and a way for me to vent/process/figure stuff out.

Have you received a list of other AlAnon meetings during the week?
I could attend one daily if I wanted to in my area.

How is that enabling? She doesn't know that sis-in-law called and asked about her, and I thought it would be encouraging for wife to hear from her. I didn't tell her what to say, and SIL was wanting to call anyway, both to encourage and give her a dose of truth if need be. I know I shouldn't react - but I'm making baby-step progress... even to the point that I'm planning a non-enabling response if she fails to complete the 28 days. I do still have a lot to learn.

FYI: As a general rule, AlAnon typically recommends that you attend 2-3 meetings weekly as you become introduced to the program

Well, you are trying to CONTROL the situation caused by alcoholism.
The First Step is to admit that you have NO CONTROL.

Your attempts to do damage control, while appearing to be good natured can often be enabling of the drinking

I know of the 4 AlAnon meetings that are within 15 minutes from my house. One is 5 minutes away. I have attended 2 different groups, and liked the first one better, but think I can learn from both.

I cannot find any AlaTeen within 25-30 minutes, so will bring my daughter to a regular session.

AA on the other hand has daily meetings, and 5-6 choices within 15 minutes of my house.

I would just focus on the AlAnon meetings.
As you attend them, you will sometimes hear from guest speakers of AA; but AlAnon is the group you should be focusing on.

I encourage you to attend at least 2-3 meetings weekly.
You need to find one with a few men, as you can ask for someone to be a sponsor down the road.

\

You are trying to control the situation. IF your wife wants to leave rehab, then leave her be. She is not a child.

Don't take baby steps, just stop it. You are not a baby and neither is your wife. Your wife desperately needs the freedom to hit her bottom if that is her choice. You have protected her from her bottom endless times and it has hurt her terribly. So please, no more baby steps. Just stop enabling her.

She should not be allowed back into your home if she doesn't complete the 28 days. Is that your plan?

Yes, that is the plan.

And I hear you on "just stop the enabling". I have made progress. It can be hard when things are getting thrown at me, but I understand I have to stay strong and let her make her own decisions. It's especially difficult with some decisions because she is not rational right now.

You need to be mentally prepared for the worse case scenerios.
Once, my wife finally stood up and REFUSED to allow her mother into our home (after a night of binge drinking), and met her on the porch to tell her she cant stay here until she is on the path of sobriety.

My MIL then proceeded to just go drink more and ended up living homeless under a bridge for several weeks, UNTIL my wife gave in and allowed her back into the home (where she continued her self destructive behavior).

My wife told me, I cant let her be homeless. She could die out there. Her intentions were good natured, but it was no excuse to enable the drinking.

Yes, that's what I've been using my apart time from my wife to prepare for. I don't want to be surprised by anything my wife might throw my way. I also don't want to I'm talking with my older kids too as a way to ensure our solidarity and support for my decisions.

I am of the same mind. I don't want her to die under a bridge or on the road somewhere separated from me and the family. But, that is better than enabling and allowing an opportunity to hurt my kids or me or someone else while I support her behavior in my own home.

Well, what you will eventually learn is that you really have NO control over her her life anyway.
My wife thought she could control her mothers drinking...but guess what? She is still drinking and using drugs!
All my wife did was allow this GARBAGE to occupy her mind; contrast that with her sister, you went NO CONTACT with her mother and isnt involved in the daily drama an alcoholic and addict has.

Her sister went to AlAnon and had to retrain her thinking process to learn how not to allow her mother to rent space in her head.

That's what you need to be focusing on; attending as many AlAnon meetings as possible

Have you spoken with an attorney?
On your radio call, Dr. Harley said you should have spoken with one.

Talked to my wife as she arrived at the new facility and was checking in. Said she couldn't do it, and needed to be with her babies. I told her I loved her and knew she would do great in the program. She said "No you don't", and hung up on me. So, I guess she's in the program!

I also attended another AlAnon tonight - and GASP! - there were a couple men there. Nice to see I'm not the only one.

Did you speak to these men?
Did you get the book I recommended: One day At A Time In Al-Anon?

Bravo to you!!!

When she pulls this again, ask her "isn't this better than jail? I barely kept you out of jail this time, I won't do that again. So when you think about how you don't like that place, ask yourself if you like it better than JAIL."

Starting putting that idea in her head. Talk to her about JAIL. She is a very, very high risk for JAIL since she is a drunk driver.

"I love ya, but I won't keep you out of jail the next time!"

Update - all I can say is this sucks. Less than 24 hours at the women's facility, and wife has signed AMA to leave the facility. She signed papers when she checked in that give them 24 hours to convince her to stay, and she can't get her luggage, phone, or wallet before then. She called me and told me she was willing to come closer to home to the rehab she checked out of twice (co-ed), but I don't see how that solves anything. And, she can't keep being in control - she has to let that go to admit she has a problem!

I repeated that I loved her, and wanted to see her finish her commitment - something that would show love for the family and show that she's willing to do whatever it takes to get well and get home. She read me a list of apologies since the beginning of the year, and I repeated that I loved her and wanted to see her well, but she could choose whatever she wanted, and I couldn't stop her. I would prefer she choose rehab, as I would love to see her in 21 more days. She said she had made her choice, and then said goodbye.

She has several CC's, and I can't really limit how much she spends, as they even let us go over the credit limit, which means she could run it up thousands of dollars. Phone can be disabled remotely (iPhone iCloud or carrier "lost" mode).

Very sad that I may be witnessing the end of my 19 year relationship. Happy I can stand up for myself and my kids, and hopefully have learned something to move forward with. I still hope that it is a bluff, or she will figure stuff out very quickly and return, but I don't think that is the case anymore.

What is your plan when she shows up at the door and hasn't finished the 28 days?

I would cancel the credit cards.

Sir, can you make it to an AlAnon meeting tonight or tomorrow?

My plan is to not give her $$ so she can't make it from Hill Country to Dallas to be able to show up at my door. But, if she does, I will have to not let her in and put bars on the windows so she doesn't break any more!

I plan on going to AlAnon again tomorrow.

If you are also on the credit cards, you can call and report them lost, or even explain the circumstances and have them then open up new cards, just with different numbers, but the same limits.

Don't finance her destruction, drinking and affairs.

She is not serious about recovery..... yet.

LTL

It doesn't seem like she will ever be serious about recovery, like MelodyLane has suggested. Sad. But, I have to protect myself and my kids.

I have already requested new cards on all the cards I can. I cannot do it on the bank ATM card for some reason - they will only respond directly to her. I am planning on emptying the account and moving to a different bank if necessary. I have one card open but suspended, and phone currently open, but ready to lock.

I do not wish to be the benefactor who funds the depths of my wife's ruin.

One question I have, that again I was a little confused by Dr Harley's radio advice... I can tell my wife not to return home until she completes the 28 days. But does that mean I move to Plan B, or keep with the Plan A with the one caveat of no drinking - just don't let her come home without rehab follow-thru and insist on rehab again every time she takes a drink? Dr Harley seemed to think she would need to return to rehab several times before I start playing hardball.

What was the drug your doctor prescribed her?

Hi KS, no plan A here. What you do is not allow her to drink again in your home. If she shows up, you have to let her in. I would suggest you give her this deal:

She agrees to take antabuse every morning. You administer yourself and keep the drug on you. She must agree to go to AA meetings every day. [you will have to drive her and stay in the parking lot] If she drinks again, you will have her committed to the rehab where she can't check out.

I would make sure all your credit cards are cancelled and your money in your main account is moved out. Additionally, there should be no alcohol in the house and no car keys.

Do you have someone to watch your kids all day?

How fast can you get antabuse from her doctor?

And I want to add that if she goes drunk driving again, you MUST CALL THE POLICE ON HER and have her thrown in jail. She is a danger to society.

I will be honest when I say I don't have much hope for your situation and would strongly recommend you file for divorce. I think that your wife is so bad that she would be in jail or living under a bridge if you had not propped her up all this time.

So, if she checks herself out and heads home, despite our agreement, let her in the house, just with the agreement of AA and antabuse - and no driving freedom or access to money? And one drink requires a return to rehab - but what teeth does that have if I let her come home after just 7 of 28 days where she is at now?

Are you also suggesting I keep someone watching my kids while she goes through this 30 day sobering-up? There is only one to watch, since the rest are in school. Friend is watching her now, but I was looking for an in-home daycare while my wife was at the women's facility.

Isn't this unhealthy? I would be the only reason she is keeping to these things and avoiding drink. Isn't this the same as pouring out alcohol in the house, etc?

I think I can get it within a day.

And, I know about the drinking and driving... it might be the thing that saves her life...

Sir,

Your biggest challenge with the housing is that you legally cant kick her out of her home.
If she called the police, they would force you to let her in.

Now, she may not be aware of her rights. Let's hope she's not aware.

Did she check herself out?
If so she probably called OM to come pick her up.

I am starting to feel the same way, which was why I am prepared to not let her back home til she finishes her commitment. You're giving me doubts though about what I should do!

Actually, Dr. Harley addressed calling the police on a drunk driving spouse on the radio show a few months ago. It may have involved a poster here, I cant remember.
The husband had called the police and his wife was arrested for drunk driving.
Now, Harley said the man should NOT have done it because it was a huge love buster and that the husband is not to assume the role of a police officer.

Understand - unless her name is not on the title, right? Or, because we are married, it doesn't matter?

She signed the papers to check out, but she can't get her possessions until 24 hours have passed, which is around 10:30 am Thursday.

She can't call OM - doesn't have his contact info. But I believe that fear is one of the reasons I made dumb decisions about her drinking for so long. I can't control her drinking or trying to get back with him without her making a decision to put her life and our marriage above those addictions.

If she drinks again, you get her committed against her will. And you need to tell her this. She needs to know NOW that she will never drink again and live with you.

Do you have the list of AA meetings? Are you prepared to do this?


Your wife is not a fit parent. Until she sobers up she can't be trusted to watch your dog.


You are joking, right? The reason that most alcoholics stop drinking is because some caring person, a judge, employer, spouse held a gun to her head.

The ONLY reason I sobered up and stayed that way [long enough to want it myself] is because my XH told me I would be kicked out and not be able to see my kids if I EVER DRANK AGAIN. It has worked so far for 29 years!!

Personally, I would file for divorce and seek full custody of the children.
But, it's not my life and a decision only you can make.

Sir, you THINK she doesnt have his contact info!
That's another attempt to control the situation. You have no way of knowing if she has his contact info or not.

I was in communication with Dr Harley TODAY and he agreed that Ksummit should call the police on her if she goes drunk driving. He was disappointed that he protected her from being arrested last week.

Are we on board here? Did you have any questions?

Is there alcohol in your house?

Rubbing alcohol and GermX - nothing consumable though.

ok, thanks. Have you discussed the antabuse with your wife? Is she drunk yet?

This includes no mouthwash, cooking wine, vanilla syrup for coffee, cold syrup etc.

My MIL would also take a bottle of any OTC medicine she could get her hands on. Do you need to get rid of pills too?

Though you may be right, why would she be so vehement to get OM contact info from her friend, angry when friend didn't pass to wife and deleted info, try to break into her old email, angry when I deleted the OM email info, and then go look for OM one night at his bar, writing a love note saying she wished she had his # memorized, and sad she can't contact him. I can't prove anything without being God, but all the hard evidence I have collected and keep tabs on makes me believe that they have had no direct contact since mid-June.

That doesn't make it any better that she was TRYING to contact him recently, and part of my resolve for her to finish her commitment.

Aren't the extraordinary precautions controls to ensure an affair is not incubated/hidden? We haven't gotten very far because of the alcoholism, but there is a marked difference when my wife was in contact with OM and when she has not been in contact with OM.

NyQuil needs to go - good point. I already keep the pills hidden, as when she would drink, she had times where she would take too many of something.

No, she's still in the rehab - til at least 10:15-10:30 tomorrow. They have a 24 hour cooling off period before they release her belongings. She could leave now, but would only have what she was wearing and whatever she had in her room, no luggage, money, or cell phone.

And, the rehab is 7 miles from a small town that is about 45 minutes from a major city in Texas... but many hours from our city. She won't make it home quickly without me getting her, or her figuring out how to make it to the airport and buy a ticket. The rehab does not offer rides if a patient checks out AMA.

Out of curiosity, since these are all private clinics are you paying for these?
My MIL would apply for grants to go to them (she refused to go to AA), because she had no means to pay by herself.

I see. I didn't realize she was not home. How does she plan to get home?

Not sure... part of me thinks the whole thing is a bluff. But, she is very impulsive and doesn't think things through, so I wouldn't be surprised if she follows through and sits on the side of a rural Texas highway just as a protest.

If I leave the one credit card active, she could get a ride to an airport and buy a ticket.

Insurance covers it - after I had to pay a huge portion of the first couple stays. We are at out-of-pocket max for the year, but the financial damage has already been done.

OM convinced her that AA was garbage, and that she could "drink moderately". She spouted this until about mid-July. OM did not drink moderately - bragged several times to her that he could have 20 shots without major ordeal.

Was it antabuse?

That's nice.
A real good quality for him to brag about.

No, the detox drug was adavan/valium. But, apparently it wasn't as much as my wife "wanted". It's more of a substitute while the alcoholic gets the alcohol out of their system.

Antabuse creates unpleasant affects when one drinks, correct?

Amazingly, it seemed to be one of his better qualities.

Yes and that's why you need to administer it to her and make sure it's in liquid form and not pills. If it's in pill form she can act like she took it and spit it out.

Antabuse makes one deathly ill when they drink! It comes in liquid form and you can give it to her every morning.

Can you call her doctor today and get this?

What a stud!

Is there a difference between what I did (play interference with police when questioning her) vs actively calling when she drives? She had never done this before the past 2 weeks, always very aware that it was not something that was safe.

I put it on my calendar for after my first morning meeting!

Called the doctor who had prescribed the detox drugs. Told the nurse that approach failed. Told her wife has been in rehab for 8 days, but has signed to be released AMA, and I want to be prepared with antabuse if she knocks on my door. Waiting for a call back from the doctor if she is willing to prescribe.

And she is so safety conscious and has such great judgement! you should call the police on her if she goes drunk driving.

Doctor is very open to prescribing antabuse for my wife, but wants her to come in to fully understand what the effects are if she does drink while taking it. I told them, no problem - I am going to be honest with her about it, but it will be a requirement if she comes knocking at my door.

Gotcha - I wasn't trying to say that she has her head on straight... only that it never happened before the extreme craziness set in for the past couple weeks.

x 2

If that doesn't motivate her to stop drinking, nothing will.

Welcome to MB. Sorry you find yourself here. Jedi asked if you had spoken to an attorney yet and I did not see an answer? Have you? Do you live in TX?

Did you get the prescription? Have you spoken to your wife? What is going on now?

And I very much agree you need to file for divorce. You don't want your wife to file on you first and get you kicked out of the house. I don't think she will ever sober up so you need to prepare for that eventuality.

Alcoholism is a progressive disease.

Yes - I've observed that.

No, I don't have the prescription yet, since it needs to be prescribed to my wife, and doctor wants to meet her first.

Update - it took me most of the day to get a hold of the rehab counselor - I left messages every hour starting at 8:00, and finally got a hold of the counselor at 1:15 pm. She told me my wife was onsite, and that was all she could confirm.

Later, my wife called me and apologized for the drama. She said after we had talked last and I had held to my convictions, she hung up feeling hurt and abandoned. She said she spent a lot of the night praying, and felt that it was revealed to her that I was doing exactly what I should be doing, and showing her great love, not abandonment. First thing this morning, she revoked her request to check out, and began attending all the group sessions.

She says she knows that the physical detox was just the first step - now she needs the spiritual/behavioral shift so she can get used to life sober and maintain her sobriety. We didn't get to talk a long time, but this is the first time she has sounded peaceful and focused on getting better since the beginning of the year.

OF COURSE, I have paper-thin hope, and am still preparing for a shift in tone, or to hear from the rehab that she's checking out again, or find her at my door, etc.

I have gotten a family lawyer contact from a friend who was divorced. I left a message yesterday asking for a consultation, and haven't received a call back yet. What you're recommending is getting on the ball and filing as a way to ensure my terms and set a potential wake-up call? Obviously, if things don't improve, then work to get it completed.

How many more days until she hits 28?

She checked in on 8/20, so her checkout date is 9/16. Any checking out and getting drunk resets the 28/30 day requirement.

I forgot to mention - I passed on to my wife that when she finishes her 28 days and comes home, that I would insist on AA or Celebrate Recovery, and would like her to take antabuse to ensure if she did drink, it would not be a pleasant experience for her. She claimed that she had heard about that, and really liked the idea as an insurance policy. I would make sure I did it myself, liquid as you all recommended. And, the day she gets deathly sick is the day she has to go back into rehab.

That is great! Do you see how your actions convey true compassion? Even though her brain is anesthetized, she recognizes true compassion when she sees it. I will be forever grateful to my XH for forcing me - at the point of a gun - to stop drinking.


I would file for divorce so you are legally protected. You don't want to find yourself in a position where you have to leave your home and leave the kids in her care. Once you file for divorce and get legal protection in place, you can drag out the divorce while you see if she is going to sober up or not. If she straightens out for several months and takes the recovery program seriously, you can drop the divorce. It will give her something to work for.

As I recall your phone call with Dr. Harley, he felt that filing court actions to secure custody of your children was "too early" at this point.
However, he later said that he expected you had at a minimum "spoken with an attorney."

Since Harley is familiar with your case, I encourage you to email him prior to any court action.
Give him an update since your last phone call, tell him: My wife has stayed off the wagon and is in rehab again," Should I now file for custody of the children? I am concerned that she could leave rehab and run off with the kids or work to get me thrown out of the home."

One advantage you have is the older kids; they are able to see she is insane (hopefully) and not be as fragile as your youngest child.

Yes

You should speak to a attorney while she is away so you consider all the decisions you need to make while things are relatively calm and don't make decisions in haste...too much room for error. The attorney should be made aware of your wife's alcoholism and infidelity. Right now she is an unfit parent and your children need protection from her as much as you do.

Since you mentioned Dallas and that the rehab is in TX...that is why I asked if you live in TX. I live in TX and divorced in TX. There is no such thing as legal separation in TX. You can also cite adultery as fault in TX as well...and you have enough circumstantial evidence to likely support that claim.

Yes, we live in Texas. I have a photocopy of her love letter, I have the phone records showing 40+ hours of calls and ~2000 texts over 3-4 weeks, I have GPS records showing her visiting his bar, I have some recovered deleted texts, I have a direct text to me and her from OM, I have her confessions to her sister and friend, and I have my eyewitness account of seeing them together 2 times. Not sure if her counselor can testify too, as my wife told her everything before she told me.

Get to an attorney ASAP. You are in a position of strength so don't be quick to give that away.
WOW, you have a powerful case in your favor.
I am not advocating divorce, but some folks going through divorce would love to be in your position.

And you can also bring in evidence of her chronic alcoholism. That will be very relevant news in deciding child custody. You just need to make sure that you are out ahead of this and you and your children have full protection. She is very unpredictable and you don't want to get yourself in a defensive position with her.

Most (if not all) counties have a Standing Order that is issued upon filing a divorce petition...and it is a AWESOME thing to have. Both parties are put on notice to IMMEDIATELY act right. I have yet to see such Orders immediately issued in other states. Here is an example of the Standing Order (for Denton County):

http://dentoncounty.com/~/media/Corporate/DentonCounty/DCA/PDFs/DCSORCPCP.pdf

You will need to ask for exclusive use of the marital home to prevent her from entry...without that she could come and go as she pleases. There is also the option to get a Temporary Restraining Order (TRO) when divorce is filed. I believe the TRO last for 14 days. If you think she may act crazy, you may want to speak to the attorney about this...for you and the children. Because of the language of the Standing Order, any funds that need to be moved for preservation should be moved before filing.

My attorney told me fault should always be cited for Day 1 of the Petition...he did not need to convince me of this lol . That was a ten second conversation. Fault does make a difference in divorce in TX. Seeking supervised visitation (assuming she will have some) is suggested in cases like yours. WW can not be trusted to act appropriately while the children are in her care. It is always easier/better to relax an order than it is to shore up an order once the initial orders are given so have what you need in there from the get go.

I will ck back later but also...in my decree my exWH is ORDERED to never allow any form of contact between two named OW and my children. So if your attorney tells you that can not happen...yes it can.

Sir,

How is everything going?

Update - wife left rehab early and found a way back home. I let her in on the grounds that she didn't drink, accept the house as a lockdown rehab for the rest of her prescribed time, attend AA, and be prescribed antabuse. She agreed to all terms. Lockdown home meant all cash, coins, checks, and credit cards were locked in a safe.

She made excuses for not making it to AA. She did go to the doctor to discuss antabuse, but the doctor did not feel comfortable prescribing, thinking my wife still had a strong chance of drinking - and too much drinking on antabuse could result in death - I validated this opinion by talking to the doctor.

My wife did good with the no drinking thing for about a week. Then, last week Thursday & Friday I noticed she was a little off, but she lied and I couldn't tell for sure. Saturday morning she admitted to having drank the previous 2 days - claiming 2x50ml singles each day. I asked her where she found the money, and she said she found some change in one of her purses. Saturday ended up the same way - and I saw a Redbox DVD rental, so figured out she had found a credit card. She fessed up on Sunday, and committed to check herself into rehab again. So, about 3 weeks sober, followed by 4 days drinking.

So, back to square 1... she has been in a lockdown detox place since Sunday, with likely release either tomorrow or Monday.

I went to visit on Monday, and had a list of commitments for her to agree to upon release:
1 - no alcohol, attend AA, take an anti-alcohol drug, and back to rehab on any slip up
2 - no more attempts to contact OM - and change cell # since OM was attempting contact again (blocked, but on the phone records)
3 - rebuild relationship following MB principles

She only read through #1, tossed the pages on a table, and went back to her room. She called me later and said she couldn't believe how controlling I was being. It was easy to see I was right in what I was asking her to commit to, so her outburst didn't affect me too much - just validated the fog is thick.

When she gets released, I will set the boundaries explained in the letter for her to return to the family. I am nearly done with this whole situation, and don't have much hope.

Here is #1 in my "controlling" letter:

1. Alcohol
There won't be any more drinking in our home. The worst moments in our marriage happened this year, and alcohol is a big reason. You have hurt yourself, me, our children, our friends.

After you are out of rehab, and physically detoxed, I want you to commit to 4 things:
- 2 weeks of nightly AA meetings - I will go with you - the Christ Church half a mile from home has meetings every night
- Get a temporary sponsor ASAP
- 2 months of Antabuse liquid administered by me every morning
- If you have even 1 drink during this time, you commit to go back to rehab and finish a 30 day program

I think you also need to file for divorce. You have become the babysitter for a chronic alcoholic and there is very little hope here. You need to file sooner rather than later because you are headed to divorce and as she sees you getting firmer in your boundaries, she will find new and creative ways to plunder your family money and ruin you financailly. She is also dangerous to your children. With her record of chronic alcoholism, you can easily get full custody with only supervised visitation.

How will you make her do this?

I can't make her go... I wanted her to commit to going if she screws up again. But, that will just be another nail in the coffin to our relationship, and I think I've already used too many nails.

Her commitment means nothing.... I agree you have already used too many nails. I am sorry, but you need to file for divorce. Protect yourself legally in every way.

Yes, this is the place I am at the moment. She didn't get fall-down drunk those days like before, but I am not trying to convince myself with blinding "silver linings" any more. I have had a consultation, but haven't started the divorce process yet.

Filing for divorce may be the only thing that wakes her up but you need to get a good fathers attorney so you maintain full custody of the children and possession of the home. And even if it doesn't wake her up, you will win, because you will be divorced. Filing for divorce is win/win.

So far, she still believes you will be available for her use and abuse. She only views you as a personal "resource" not a husband. It will shock the princess to learn that you aren't interested in staying married to a falling down drunk. It was the shock of my life and I have been sober for 29 years! Alcoholic women believe they are princesses whose husbands love and adore them too much to want to end the marriage. It is a huge shock to find out otherwise.

That is a good thing, becuase it is not the 20th drink that is the problem, BUT THE FIRST DRINK. The first drink is the engine, the last one is the caboose. When you are sitting on the railroad tracks it is the engine that kills you.

YOU MADE A MISTAKE IN LETTING HER BACK IN WITHOUT COMPLETING REHAB.
Have you been to Alanon meetings weekly? There is a saying there that you NEVER make a threat to an alcoholic that you are not willing to carry through with.

You are correct that you cant make her go and your actions prove to her that she can check out of rehab and always come home to you.

I really doubt that you have been attending AlAnon meetings and sharing this with them because I think they would call you out on your methods.

The first step is to admit that you are powerless over alcohol yet you attempted to turn your home into a lockdown rehab center, which I doubt Dr. Harley would approve of.

But your lockdown rehab center wasn't too secure...you couldn't keep the booze out (but don't feel bad...even the government prisons cant keep all the booze and drugs out)...so you then insist again that she go to a regular rehab facility.

I hope you have good insurance because these facilities can be very expensive. What's your co-pay? If its around $5000 a year or so just think of the money you could set aside for a childs college fund!

Your wife will bring financial ruin upon you and your family.
I know that when you last spoke with Dr. Harley, he said that it was too early for court action.

I think you should update him on what has happened since you phone call with him.

Personally, I would file for divorce and full custody.

x 2

Sorry

How's it going?

I wonder how it's going also.

Why do I have this sinking feeling that his WW is back and still drinking?

Long time to update... sorry to all who have invested in helping me.

Everyone knew what would happen before I did... though I knew too in my heart. Wife is in a better place now, but not sure it is where I am happy that she be. She is still drinking, but no longer getting piss drunk every night. Like before, and what MelodyLane has validated, that doesn't mean much at all. I am fighting for my wife, as we have a long history, and I know her well and love her. I have called lawyers too, and not sure I'm ready for divorce yet - I see too much to give up.

She has been in rehab again... and even called OM again when sober @ rehab in September. Claims it is what finally made her see the light about his intentions, and see I was the one for her... I have been torn about what to do. Our kids have my back, but I feel so guilty that I am throwing my wife away... she is devoted to me again... and still stuck in her addiction. I am confused about what will help her.

How long has she been in rehab?
Did she write a No Contact letter to OM?

In addition to these, have you verified NC?

She was in detox rehab twice since mid-September, for a total of 3 weeks. She has been in daily outpatient for 3.5 weeks - tomorrow is her last day. Claims she will be going to AA daily for 90 days when the outpatient is complete.

She did not write another NC letter. OM has no means to contact her. She no longer has his number, and I've seen a positive change in her since she called him 2 months ago, but it's confusing and still hurts that she contacted at all, 3 months after sending him a NC letter.

I have verified NC to the best of my ability - she has not called him from her cell, she has not driven by his apartment. Only way I think she could contact him at this point is to go to the bar he frequents and wait for him to show up - and he travels during the week, so weekend is the only time they could meet up - and her and I are joined at the hip on weekends. Almost all of her time is easily accountable.

Thanks for the update, KSummit. Oh wow. Just wow. My mouth is gaping at the nightmare you have been through.

A couple of questions. How far away does the OM live? Are these AA meetings co-ed or female only? AA meetings are hot beds for pick ups so going to co-ed meetings will be a disaster for your marriage.

When was the last time she drank? Is the willingness there this time or is this yet another ruse to get you off her butt? What is different this time?

Also, there is a difference in AA between Open Meetings and Closed Meetings.

Closed Meetings are only for Alcoholics. Open Meetings can be attended by anyone. In my area, typically Open Meetings are an Individual Speaker Meeting, with one person sharing their Hope, Strength and Experiences or Workshops or Conferences. Closed Meetings are typically grouppdiscussion meetings on a particular topic.

LTL

This is a good point. You can attend open meetings with her and I would encourage you to do that. And find female only meetings for her closed meetings. Does she have a sponsor yet? If not, she can call the local AA office and assign her a female sponsor. Hopefully it will be someone with some maturity.

He lives way too close - about 5 miles down the road. It's in an area my wife never frequents... anymore. I cross over the road his apartment/bar is on every day on my way to and from work - not a nice trigger. We have talked about moving in the past, and now have another reason as a way to start fresh. Currently fixing up our house in preparation for selling.

Not sure on the AA meetings yet, since she's been in rehab mode for awhile, and hasn't been attending AA - but you alerted me to the 13th steppers a few months ago. At this point, I have joined her at every AA meeting except one - one that was women-only and seemed to really reach my wife. She has a sponsor.

Some things have changed with the drinking - some have stayed the same. Good - she hasn't been drunk in a long time, and no new crazy stories to share with you all. Bad - she still tries to justify the continued 1-3 she has most nights. She had 2 last night. Since she isn't overdrinking, the older kids have no idea that she is still drinking at all. She even had a "good excuse" to drink heavily when her dad died this last week, but did not. I do believe she wants to give it up, but she's struggling.

However, it takes more than words - I'm not sure how long this will last, and am just tolerating while I try to figure out what I want to do if/when I don't see her actually work on getting dry. Awhile back, when I saw she couldn't be trusted with the kids safety, I put our 2 year old in preschool - and I pick up and drop off my other ones to school. My wife is only home with the kids without me when one or both of my older children (13, 17) are around to make sure nothing happens. I've told her I will cancel preschool once she shows extended sobriety, as I can't chance anything happening to our kids.

I'm not sure anything is permanently different, yet. I feel our relationship is better and keeps getting better. I'm still not sure why she backslid on the NC after we were getting along great for months. I feel the drinking has gotten better, but I need complete sobriety.

She is not even remotely serious about sobriety yet if she even has 1 drink once in a while, let alone 1-3 (That Yoo Know Of), every single day.

She hasn't hit the bottom that she needs to hit yet.

Why are you allowing her to be home while still in the throes of her addictive behavior?

When you enable an addict, it is Not Love, it is just prolonging their disease.

LTL

If you NEED Complete Sobriety from her, then don't let her drink at home.

What kind of example are you Showing by your actions in that regard?

LTL

Good deal.


That sounds good.


This is a deal breaker!! It is not the 10th drink that is the problem, but the first drink. She is not serious about sobriety, so this should be a deal breaker.

And of course, there is no point in going to AA since she has not stopped drinking.

Sigh.. You just need to plan to separate and file for divorce.

NOTHING has changed here.

I agree with the others. In addition to her needing to completely stop drinking what spyware do you have on her devices?

If she is home alone all day because the baby is in preschool then how can you possible verify NC with OM?

Dr Harley told you to sock her right back into treatment if she drinks again. Why is she even there?

KSummit, what in the world are you thinking??

What in the WORLD would she go to an AA meeting for?? She drinks!!!

Extended sobriety?? She has to first GET SOBER. She has not even stopped drinking!!


You are joking right? How is the drinking "better" if she still drinks?? You don't have a relationship with her. It is impossible to have a relationship with a PRACTICING ALCOHOLIC because of their obsession.

Sir, you are under a serious delusion and this is a big part of the reason this has gone on for so long. Your wife DRINKS in your home and you do nothing?

You are delusional if you think the craziness is over. YOUR WIFE IS STILL DRINKING.


Yes, your delusion is amazing if you believe your marriage is going in a positive direction. Your enabling is a bigger problem than your wife's alcoholism. She is a chronic alcoholic and you are propping her up and supporting her DISEASE. Your actions are harmful to her.

Sir, you are in serious and dangerous denial.

Sir,

How many AlAnon meetings did you attend last week?

Wow, an avalanche of truth. I am trying to see things positively given the past craziness of ER's, driving drunk, breaking windows, etc - but know the things you all are saying are true, and know with drinking how quickly the craziness can return. I am not in denial, I am tolerating because of another piece of information I had not passed on yet.

She has been seeing a psychiatrist every day as part of her outpatient therapy. He told me in October that my wife is suffering psychiatric issues that he's attempting to medicate to balance out whatever is wrong, but it takes some time to get it right. He's less concerned with the drinking than the hormone test results and the physiological symptoms they are seeing. Yesterday evening, he said she needs to be back in inpatient so they can monitor her closely while they are changing medications. She is checking in today.

I have been adamant that my wife needs no alcohol if things are going to work out between us. I was working towards ending our relationship because of it, since she was showing no signs of seriously trying to work on getting sober. The psychiatrist made me put a pause on that, to at least temporarily support her while they try to even her out.

She is not home all day alone - she has been in outpatient therapy for almost a month now. I verify her location multiple times per day - if I commute home before she is done, I do a drive by.

He obviously can't "even her out" if she is drinking. You need to stop enabling her. I would also write Dr Harley TODAY and tell him this.

Drinking CAUSES psychiatric problems. Allowing your wife to continue to drink is the opposite of being ADAMANT about her quitting.

Who cares about any of this if she is still drinking? This is just a disaster.

Not that this is the #1 problem, but what is to stop the OM from coming to your house? What stops her from going there?

And is she DRIVING? A practicing alcoholic is DRIVING? How does she get to therapy?

This is laughable. The psychiatrist is "evening her out" while she sits home and drinks? I would like to know how that is done. Is that how he keeps her coming to him?

I have always heard (from Dr. Harley and elsewhere) that you can't take antidepressant/antianxiety/etc meds while drinking alcohol - that you absolutely MUST NOT and CAN NOT consume alcohol when you are taking drugs for mental problems. I can't believe this psychiatrist thinks it's not a problem that she's drinking.

It's worth noting that psychiatrists do not know how to keep people sober.
Poeple can spend thousands of dollars for professional therapy when they can receive a better program for no cost through AA and Alanon

Th reason why I keep asking you about Alanon meetings is because I think they will help you set boundaries with your wife and stop enabling her.

Do you realize that you enable her drinking?

What medications have been prescribed for her and is she taking them as required?

What does the drug manufacturer state on the Warning Label?

LTL

Psychiatrists come to AA to get help for their drinking problems....

Everyone - thanks for the outpouring of frustration with me and good questions. I know I deserve it. I've had a weekend without the wife and have done a lot of thinking.

The psychiatric condition put a pause on what I was going forward with to protect myself and the family - things you would have all told me "good job" for, as I was serious about letting her hit rock bottom. The pause was likely not a good idea given the year I've had, but one I thought made sense at the time. And, I know my recent previous posts I am making a lot of excuses for something I'm not ok with.

Since getting out of the last rehab, wife was seriously depressed, having suicidal thoughts (pre-plan), and was self-harming. All this was happening under the care of a psychiatrist who at first thought the new meds would help while in outpatient, but then wanted to pull her back into inpatient to get her meds right, get her support structure right, and yes, sober her up. I may have mischaracterized how he classified her drinking... since it was light, compared to the heavy drinking of the past (I and they test her daily), he WAS concerned, and did state it could affect the meds, but he didn't think it was the cause of the symptoms and behaviors he was seeing.

I did not feel that was a good time for me to kick her out of the house solely for the drinking. I don't know if what I did was right or wrong, but it was the only decision I felt I could make at the time. She has been in the lock-down rehab eval since Friday. They will not release her this time once she is sober - but additionally once they think she is psychiatrically stabilized.

She has been cogent the last few times I have talked with her, and she is scared of her mental state... but she is also upset at the toll alcohol has had in her life, especially this year. I have heard variations of this before, so I'm not doing a victory dance. She has asked her psychiatrist for Antabuse once she is released. To me that is the sign that she is serious... if she is released, shows up with the prescription, and is ready and willing to take it every day.

This is another GroundHog Day. I don't see anything different happening here except that you have garnered more excuses for enabling. There is MORE enabling going on because of supposed "psychiatric" problems. Yes, practicing alcoholics have psychiatric problems, it makes us INSANE. The solution is to stop drinking.


You didn't mischaracterize her drinking at all. Alcohol is poison to your wife so saying that the poisoning was "light" tells me you don't understand what you are dealing with . It is not the 10th drink that is the problem, but the 1st drink. The first drink is the engine train. The first drink triggers the craving.


Your feelings have led you wrong in the past and they are leading you wrong here. Dr Harley told you if she had ONE DRINK, to kick her out. "Solely" for drinking? Are you kidding me? Your wife is a chronic alcoholic and alcohol has wrecked all of your lives and now you are minimizing it as "solely for drinking?"

There should be ZERO TOLERANCE for drinking. She cannot drink EVER. Your wife can NEVER be a social drinker. NEVER. And you should NEVER have alcohol in your home.

I am shocked and disappointed that you are allowing this to happen. I can understand that a psychiatrist doesn't know any better, but you know better. There is no excuse.

ALL CAUSED BY DRINKING!!! If she is suicidal, she should be in the hospital, not sitting home drinking while her husband watches!

The best medicine for your wife is to hit bottom. It is the ONLY THING that can possibly wake her up and motivate her to change. When the pain of staying drunk exceeds the pain of sobering up, she will sober up. By enabling her you protect her from the pain of staying drunk.

You are withholding that from her. I hope she can survive your enabling. Hitting bottom is her only hope. She knows you will run around like a chicken with your head cut off taking her back and forth to rehab so she can just come home and drink freely. She has no damn reason to quit.

KSummit, the best therapy for your wife is to hit bottom. Let her hit bottom. Don't let her come back until and unless she is sober for months. She has no intention of sobering up so there is no reason to bring her back.

I do know better. I know what I need to do. I made a decision because I was confused about what to do given the newer behaviors and symptoms. I know you are right... I know I can't use any excuses. I wouldn't come back if I was convinced I am right and don't need help with healthy convictions.

What can you do to put an end to this? I would make her live somewhere else until she can demonstrate sobriety for at least a year. She will either sink or she will swim. But at least you and your kids won't go down with her if she goes down. I predict she won't choose to sink and will come to her own rescue if you aren't there to save her.

How can you make this happen?

Are you calling the "newer behavior" her "light drinking?" That is the oldest con in the book. It is a trick to fool someone into thinking she can drink socially and control her drinking. People in AA laugh about that trick.

Hello everyone - long time - I saw a shortcut on my PC desktop to this site, and decided to drop in and give everyone an update.

Life went from bad to worse by focusing on the wrong things and enabling my wife. 2014 was emotionally crippling. 2015 was insanity in my home. 2016 was a slow road to recovery. 2017 is a new day.

The affair hurt me - but that was not the core of the problem. MelodyLane tried to beat it into me, but I couldn't listen.

I tried to "protect" my wife in 2015 and hurt myself and my family. I filed for divorce in late 2015. I kicked her out. I caught her in bed with cheating partner while kicked out, when she had asked for my help. I completed divorce in early 2016. Ex never recovered from her alcoholism - she lasted a year after our divorce, almost to the day. She died in early Feb of this year. Regardless of the previous trauma, 20+ years of a relationship and mother to our 4 kids meant a lot of sadness.

I am better now than I have been since 2012 or 2013 - and now have the experience, understanding, and compassion for those who have gone through what I have.

Seems callous to say, but having "lost her" well before her actual death was actually helpful to make the loss just a tiny bit less intense.

I'm not sure if anything that was recommended to me about the affair would have helped or not. It was a situation complicated by severe alcoholism, and that aspect was treated heavily to no avail. I do wish I could go back and try what was recommended, and suggest those coming here take a shot at the recommendations of Dr Harley and those who frequent the forum. Best of luck to all who have experienced infidelity - fight for your marriage, and if it doesn't work, walk away knowing you did everything you could.

Oh wow, I am so sorry to hear about your wife. What a tragic life she led. How are your kids doing?

Thanks for your update and sorry for your loss.