Please bear with me. I hurt all over and I can't stop crying right now. I just found this site.

I discovered a text message from one of his students on Sat. I love my husband and have, since we were both 18. He lied. I cried. I called the student who is 1 yr. younger than our oldest son. I raged at her and the sweet young married thing raged right back. I demanded the affair end. I threatened to tell her husband. Her response? ************** He talked w/her on the phone with me beside him and apologetically said, "We can't see each other again." It was a heartbreaking weekend.

I made threats, I took off rings, I raged some more. He was genuinely consumed in guilt, but admitted the young woman into his office on Mon., because he didn't want to "cause a scene." He said it was over. She has 5 children (2 step) and is also married.

We talked all weekend and I went to a bar by myself for the first time in 30 yrs. We have had sex twice, since I found out. I felt so desperate to reconnect. I am so ashamed.

We are to retire. He leaves his job in 2 weeks. I will be done in 6. Last night, I just couldn't control it. I lost my temper and said ugly, ugly things. I feel as though I'm losing my mind, my world, my life. I read here that I was not to do any of the things that I have done. I am calm one minute and saying horrible things the next.

He said, "I will leave." He packed and went to his mom's, without another word. I cried all night and he hasn't called. I can't concentrate. I shake.

The most hurtful aspect? My 50th birthday was Sun. I found her picture on Myspace and she looks like a tighter and younger version of me.

Please. Please. I have read all that I can understand. I think I have blown past Plan A because I drove him away. This is his second time cheating. The last was 20 years ago.

We did go to counseling and it saved the marriage for ten more years.

I feel for you....

Try reading through this site..it might give you the perspective you need to begin working on your marriage. Remember, although you're feeling hateful things toward your H right now, it may have been a lack of meeting his emotional needs that led him to cheat...

I may not have met his sexual needs. That has been an ongoing problem for the entire marriage. I just can't focus. I feel so utterly and completely lost and alone.

Mfor30,

Please do read the information here. ONe of the big things in recovering a marriage is NC with the other person, OP. If your H is retiring and you are as well, then NC seem as if it will be something that is do able.

Have you disclosed the affair to the other woman's, OW, H? If not that should happen. The more light shined on this the more rapidly it will end.

As for your behavior...it is normal. But, to be effective you really do need to be calm cool and focussed. If you want to save your marriage and it sounds as if you do, then focus on the future. Use the past to learn from and focus on the future.

As for her being younger than you, well that is a plus AND a minus for her. You have experience, you have love, you don't have 4 kids to rear, unless you are suffering from something physical you can work that man into the ground, if you know what I mean. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Your emotional ups and downs are so common that they have a name around here, it is called the emotional "rollercoaster" so fasten your seatbelt. The ups and downs will level out in time, but it will be months although the first week is very hard.

Have you spoken with your H since he left? If not, consider doing that. Let him know YOUR goals and hopes for the future. You probably don't need to tell him you are hurt, the man probably has enough brain cells functioning to figure that one out. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Please do read the articles on this site. The needs section and the concept of the love bank are good places to start. Then move to the concept of radial honesty and the policy of joint agreement, POJA. Finally read Harley's 4 rules for a good marriage. Very common sense but somehow often overlooked.

Hang in there, this can be addressed and your marriage can be rebuilt.

God Bless,

JL

Just Learning, I thank you so much for responding to me. I feel...Well I threatened to call the husband, but haven't. I do not think this OW is of decent character and my suspicions are that the BH may be worse. My WH works at a university and will be vulnerable to any violence. I just wouldn't want that.

I haven't talked to him since he walked out last night. He has not had enough nerve or decency, I suppose. I will read more, but I really do think I've pushed him right out the door. I guess that he's at his mom's and he won't go there at all until it's late, so she won't worry. His mom is very ill.

Is it too late? I will try to make some sense of this, but I can't seem to function or think. Rollercoaster? I feel as though I'm in the midst of a hurricance.

He said it was over, so why did he leave? I thought at first it was because: 1..His shame 2. I couldn't stop screaming and hyperventilating.

I just need so much right now. I truly thought he loved me. It's what he'd said for 30 years.....

Hang in there. I'm sure he will be back soon. You didn't get any more upset or act any worse than anyone else that has gone through this.

I do think I would tell her husband, but you might as well wait until your husband is no longer working there.

Keep reading and posting here. When he wants to come home, let him know that you need to know the reason he cheated.

This is so hard. I called him and he came home immediately. Sleeping on his 80 year old mother's couch wasn't comfortable....the couch must be that old as well. We talked and I was able to remain calm as advised. This was such good advice, but I lost my temper and called him a dirty word, that has never come out of my mouth before.

He was angered, but stayed. He claims that the A is over and was repentant, but I still have doubts. He admitted that he told her he loves her and was told this in return. We had sex on the day before he walked out....But I wouldn't do this again and he was disappointed. Can you believe the gall?

I am still shaky. He promised to go to a counselor, but no appointments have been made. He's bogged down at work. He promised to make an appointment for std, but this hasn't been done yet either. There has been cuddling, etc. but nothing else. While lying in bed, I had mental images of harming him, this man that I truly love.

How? How? How can you tell someone that you love them with such abandon during a 4 month A? He says they both said it and that he doesn't believe it to be true for either of them. He has said it to me for over 30 years...I believed him.

He has been kind and solicitous, but he's always been very kind and loving. He repeatedly said he didn't want to lose me, so what can you do with the information?

He risked our marriage for young sex? I will admit that he is always juiced and I am:

Loving and attentive = Yes.
Sexually active/aggresive= No
Is sex alone enough for a 55 year old man to do this? I am just knocked to my knees by all of this.

Married for 30,

Have you taken the time to read the articles on this site? you may find that many of the feelings/doubts/thoughts you and your husband are experiencing have some universal themes amongst those that have been where you are right now. To me, that is comforting...the sentiment I get from your post is 1. He loves you 2. he does have regret 3. he does not want a divorce, and 4. He doesnt even know right now what to do or where to start.

Do you feel you have it in your heart to forgive? If you knew it is over, and that he has true remorse/guilt/shame/regret? If so, please...Continue to come here to vent, read, and read some more and learn about all that you are experiencing.

One more piece of advice. Just Learning..Take his advice to heart.

Dara

Marriedfor30,

You asked how someone can tell them they love them after only 4 month's it is easy. Here is the thing you are not really grasping yet, but you will in time because it is crucial to your recovery and that of your H.

When you took your vows 30 years ago you promised to "love" your H. He made the same promise. But, neither of you promised to feel "in-love". In fact, you did not promise anything about feelings. Your H stated a feeling to this OW and she to him.

What you two promised "till death do you part" was to love as in the verb "to love". It is an action, it is a powerful action and it is one that you will need to see from him, and one he will need to see from you for this marriage to be rebuilt.

Meeting needs or not meeting needs does not cause affairs. However, meeting needs and having yours met is an action of love and one each of you need to see from the other.

I think that his actions since D-day show that you have something to work with here. He does love you, he is probably in withdrawal from the "feelings' he experienced. And you surly don't "feel" love right now.

But, the point is to act with love, to receptive to actions of love, and to learn as much as you can about relationships from the information on this site.

You are right no intimacy until STD tests, but then if you feel like it and he does, by all means be intimate.

I think he came back because he wants to be with you and in his marriage. I think that with time and work on both of your parts, your marriage will recover and be rebuilt to a level it may not have seen for a few years.

Hang in there, learn as much as you can, and understand "feeling in-love" never lasts, being loving does.

God Bless,

JL

Just Learning, I so appreciate your kind and very patient words of wisdom. I think I understand your explanation of love and being "in love", but I'm so sad and confused, because I thought we had both. I feel so foolish.

I'm back after an all night marathon of snooping and crying. I went online and got phone records...WH has been after the sweet young thing like a dog in heat, according to the records, since Dec.

I dug in and he caught me making copies. He cried and said, "Please. No more." What? I blustered and told him I wouldn't stop until I uncovered all lies and secrets and he confessed to one extra A that has gone on for approx. 1 year.

He said he and OW#2 called each other only when they needed a sexual interlude. With both, he says it was only sex and that he couldn't stand the fact that we have sex every 6 weeks or so. He said that I make him beg and that's true.

He pleaded for forgiveness and said he wants to save the marriage. The NC was mailed to OW #1 and an appointment made for IC Mon and STD check on Sat.

OW#2 is 4 years older than we are(married) and he says she only contacts him every 3 mths. or so, or vice versa. I will not press until IC begins. He doesn't have an addy, but I will insist the call be made. I didn't know to do this, until I came here.

This is such a mess. Sex? Sex? Who knew it was that important? I'm working Plan A (I think) and I will see how this develops. I have a long way to go to stop the LB behavior. I love him and he says he loves me. I believe him...but then, I always have, so this means very little.

I am strangely numb. Right now, I feel like a mother who has caught a repentant middle grade child in a sex act. Yes, I feel strangely protective yet disappointed. Is this normal?????

I love him, but heavens to mergatroid!!!!! Can a lack of sex make a grown man destroy a marriage? I still think he may have more demons to exorcise and I pray that IC will aid in that journey. He says that he desires me and felt that I had put him on a sexual diet for the entire 30 yr. marriage.

This is true, but can my lack of effort in this one area penetrate all of the other loving acts? I have read here that it is his lack of a moral compass. Now that sounds more believable to me.

Please. Can anyone sign on and help me gain more clarity here? I am so grateful to have found this site. Am I proceeding correctly? Is this marriage doomed due to his behavior that resembles a sex addict's ????? I have no one else to turn to...my husband was my confidante.

I appreciate all responses?comments. It was enough to deal with the sweet young thing...now there's also a "cougar!!!!!" I am so confused now.

Can we really make this work? He hasn't expressed remorse at losing sight of OW# 1 and 2 that I can detect....but wouldn't he HAVE to be missing them?

My God. I can't believe I wrote that...I can't believe I care whethere he does or not. I think I'm going batty.

Just Learning....Are you out there?

Married,

Oh Boy! What am I going to tell you???? Ok, let's start with the fact that Harley lists sex as an EMOTIONAL NEED. Think about this very carefully. For most men, and I am one of them, physical intimacy IS THE WAY we bond emotionally and you not meeting that need nor realizing the importance of it does two things.

1. It causes great frustration on his part: physical and emotional.

2. It tells him that you don't regard his needs as important as YOUR needs and in fact you invalidate his very being which is at least one part sexual. Do you see the DJ in that?

How can you have a marriage and surely an equal marriage if he has to "beg" to have sex once every 6 weeks or so? He is not a dog, he is not your child, he is your HUSBAND. You really need to get this into your consciousness, you denying him sex and making him "beg" for it is and has been killing your marriage.

Would you like to "beg" to have money to go shopping? Would you like to "beg" to have him take you to dinner? Would you like to have him "beg" to tell you he loves you? I doubt it would last too long.

I am not saying he hasn't made a seriousl mistake. Frankly, before he decided to have affairs he should have divorced you. This is not about the topic you posted is it?
You see an "older" woman can meet his needs as can one "young enough to be our daughter".

I still recommend that you refrain from intimate contact until STD tests, but I would suggest you consider some counseling and thought concerning your view of sex and how you view him because he desires it.

As you can tell I think you have some work to do as well as he does in order to rebuild this marriage.

Consider how this thought has affected your marriage
You are NOT his mother, you are his WIFE.

I will close by repeating a comment you made and suggesting that you do some serious reading of Dr. Harley's thoughts on needs.
Most people do know it is important, and surely the male population for the most part does. However, if you want to see the opposite side of this go read Aphrodite's posts on Recovery. Her complaint???? Her H does not give her enough sex and in the variety she desires sooooooo, she has 5 or 6 affairs.

Please do some reading, and please remain calm. From all indications IF you get your act together, your H will in fact do his part to help rebuild this marriage. You should recognize how lucky you are.

God Bless,

JL

Married

I am so sorry for all the pain you are in at the moment. We have all been there. Please know IT WILL get better. Everything you are feeling is utterly normal and all part of a process. The best thing you can do at the moment is to read as much as you possibly can. Educate yourself so you will be better equipped to handle any emotions you may have. It will help you to be proactive v. reactive and avoid LB's. In addition to what you read here, another excellent resource is "after the affair" by Janis A Spring. If you and your H are able, read it together and see if you cant open a dialogue about what he felt, and hw that affects you. Remember that anger is really hurt. If you can get to a place where you are able to express your hurt *without* LBing - it will be easier for your H to respond in a way you need.

The choices your H has made are entirely his. HE owns them. You failed to meet an important emotional need of his , true. But, he could have chosen to deal with that in a healthier fashion.

JL is absolutely correct, however. You need to try to see things through your H's eyes at the moment. Sex is not an important need for you but it clearly is for him. Please try to understand that. Every day, people make poor decisions that jeopardize their relationships because emotional needs are not being met. Maybe it is sex, maybe it is affection or attention, perhaps something else. The point is, it doesnt matter WHAT the need is. What matters is identifiying them, discovering what the dynamic is between the 2 of you that creates an environment for you to be able to not meet it and fix it.

Now, on to the A. BOTH A's need to be exposed, period. By doing so, you are destroying the environment in which they thrive. NC needs to be established and any consequences of the A's are your H's. You want you protect your H from any violence and that is understandable. However, he needs to face the consequences of his actions. If he does not, then he isnt going to learn from his actions. There is ALWAYS a price to be paid. Dont protect him from that.

Your H needs to be completely transparent and on board with recovery. That means total honesty and understand that there is much he needs to do for you to get to a place where you can start to heal. Therapy , both IC and MC is critical and much introspection needs to take place. He needs to start asking some hard questions about him, his views on relationships.

Hang in there. The bottom line is , if you want your M - you can save it. But, first - you need to normalize your feelings and get both feet on the ground.

Married

Before you found out about both affairs, how was your H at meeting your needs?

The reason I ask is because for most women, the desire to have sex is wrapped up in emotions. It's about feeling cherished and loved and feeling like the most beautiful girl in the world outside of the bedroom.

So I wonder, if your low desire for sex was influenced by your emotional needs not being met or something else, like hormones, childhood issues, or past relationship issues.

Can a lack of sex make a grown man destroy his marriage? Yes.

I'm really sorry this is happening to you. I don't have the good advice to give like all of the others here, as I've never been in the situation of a cheating spouse, nor have I cheated. All I can give you is that I am a male, and males do some really wierd things when it comes to sex. That doesn't excuse his behavior. Mostly, I just wanted to let you know that I am thinking about you, and wish you the best.

OK,
Just Learning, rubydoo, JustKim and ReprobateMind, I hear you now...I hear you loud and clear. Quite a few issues have been succintly put into perspective for me now, and in plain English! I appreciate this so much, as my WH is not, and has never been a talker.

You have each opened my eyes to emotional needs issues, that I had merely glossed over. First of all, My WH and I were teen sweethearts.I have had no other sex partners. Rubydoo, I may have repressed sexual feelings, as I started fighting my husband off on prom night.

I have withheld sex and meted it out on my own terms and schedule. I can't deny that I made him beg. That was how our sex life began, and I swear to God, I never, ever thought of this before. That being said, our R is both romantic and erotic once we DID have sex.

Just Learning, I really am able to turn up the heat...the furnace just has a very low pilot light. I am only fearful that he has learned to seek out "new" pleasures that I may not be able to counteract. There seems to be some really steamy text messaging that went between my WH and the younger OW. I don't even know if I can keep up with that...I've never sent a darn text message in my life!

You guys all direct me to understand the EN sections and I must confess, I glossed over these. In my pain, I just wanted this A to be over. I just wanted the visions in my head to stop. I wanted my flawed "trophy" life back and I now see that I denied my WH an important aspect of marriage. Stupid. Smug. Naive. I was all of these.

Just Learning, you are so correct. My husband is not my child. In my desire to continue to nurture in the absence of my adult children, I have begun to "mother" my husband. It was truly becoming a scene from the movie, "Come Back Little Sheba."

We are going to get through this. I am learning, reading and praying...and not necessarily in that order. I love my husband deeply and he has said the same, repeatedly before the A and since DDay. I want to thank you all. I want to say thank you from the depth of my heart. We need a new start. I do so hope that it isn't too late. Yes, Just Learning, I do realize that I'm lucky. I just pray that the counseling will enable us to talk to one another in a more meaningful way. We have appointments in place for counseling and check-ups.

I am so very grateful for the guidance...I could kiss you all....I am now going to reserve that affection for my WH and go put my "freakin' dress" on.

Just Learning, thank you for the verbal butt kicking. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Married30,

Well, as butt kicking goes <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />, this wasn't much of one and you didn't need much of one. You did say something that I thought I would respond to. You said
Ok, let's get down to it shall we. I haven't met a single man, that isn't absolutely attracted to an "enthusiastic" partner in bed. And I can tell you right now, a man that has an "enthusiastic" WIFE in bed is a man to be envied. Those women have no chance to compare to you, if you view your sex life as something YOU enjoy, and you want. Enthusiasm is THE BEST sexual stimulant.

Isn't it time you and your H opened up about your desires, the things you like, the things you would like to try? Isn't time you wore that man out. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Trust me if you come to him with enthusiasm, you haven't a thing to worry about in this department. And here is a little secret that just might get me thrown out of the frat. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Be a little selfish in bed. Make sure You enjoy the experience and tell him what YOU need. You won't understand this, but men really enjoy it when their spouse is satisfied. It is part of our performance complex, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> You know, size, and that sort of thing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

You have history on your side, you have love on your side, and you have a remorseful spouse on your side. It won't be a walk in the park but all is in place to not only recover your marriage but take it to a new level. Heck, if you H can face this, what could he be afraid of talking about now? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> The same goes for you.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Married

Once again, JL is right. ( No big surprise there.) Not only do you need to be selfish, you also need to discover what your H can do for YOU that will make him irresistable to you. If he starts meeting YOUR needs, meeting his will be so easy.

Im always struck by the fact that I never really knew how be in a sucessful relationship until I came here and learned mb principles. It sure would have been great to learn all this without the pain of an A but Im so grateful I do know.

You and your H now have a chance to completely recreate your M. It can be better than it ever was. I have no doubt it will be.

All the best to you

That's wonderful married!

But remember, you aren't the only one who needs to learn how to meet emotional needs. Your H needs to learn to meet yours because if he is the only one getting his needs met, all this enthusiasm you have right now will burn out sooner or later.

He also needs to help you heal from his A and he needs to figure out why he told himself it was okay to have an A in the first place...lack of sex doesn't make it okay.

I hope your H is enthusiastic as you are!

Best Wishes!

AT least your husband is aware that your sexual rejection of him has something to do with his decision to begin these affairs. You don't know how many men and women take those kinds of actions without making the connections to the underlying feelings that compel them--in other words you have actually saved yourself time and money (on therapy). You have a pretty good idea what the problem or part of the problem might be.


You might as well save more time and money and cut to the chase: Ask your husband what it feels like to be with a woman who loves to be with him physically--what a difference that makes to him--and the way that makes him feel about himself and life in general. Ask him if he felt like he had to beg you for sex and if that humiliated him.

Being with someone who wants sex as much as he does--is he willing to give that up? You say he is--that must mean that he does truly love and want you, right? That is really something special around here! But will he still feel wildly conflicted? On the one hand he will probably ALWAYS feel entitled to a fullfilling sex life; on the other hand he doesn't want to leave his marriage. Is he going to have to give one or the other up? Or are you willing to admit that he is entitled to sexual fullfillment?

You are right that it is his own lack of moral compass--but I wonder, where you never worried about him being around all these students who were going to idolize him? It's like a person with a weight problem and no satisfying food at home who has to work in a bakery!

Hi Married, I know you are hurt right now....please don't ever forget that God knows too and promised to be your comforter and friend if you will let Him, an ever present help in times of trouble. Remember, No weapon formed against you will prosper! Put on a garment of praise for a spirit of heaviness. He will never leave you or forsake you. God loves marriage and loves you, God is able to do a mighty work here and be glorified in the outcome! I will continue to pray for you and your H. I'm glad you moved over to this part of the site, see how much great advice you get here! I'm going to chime in on the sex issue....to be blunt I'm a 48 year old woman with the sex drive of a 16 year old boy....I feed my H A LOT of vitamines, he calls me the energizer bunny! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> As cute as all that sounds, sex has definately been an issue in our M. When I'm interested and my H is not, that rejection feels like not just a decline of sex at that moment but of me completely, it makes me profoundly sad, jittery, angry, resentful, suspicious and thankful that I honor my commitments and fear God or who knows what might happen! I wonder (guys chime on in here) if men feel it that way too when their women say no. I would never have an affair but did tell my H once that he was putting me in a very precarious position by saying no. Sex is incredibly powerful, knowing you are desired is intoxicating....these things are not love but can be mistaken for it. From what you have written your H loves you. It sounds like you will have a stronger marriage on the other side of this. Perhaps if you make a decision to meet his needs it will teach him to better meet yours. Perhaps you may even discover an intimacy you never knew before by becoming his lover, not just his love. Take good care of you and take advantage of the collected wisdom of all the wonderful people here.

Going outside of a marriage for sex may, in the end have less to do with sex than than the quality of the spouse's emotional relationship.

It may seem obvious to some of us that when we feel angry or hurt that we might lose interest in sex or actively withhold it. And resentment and bitterness can certainly create a loss of passion.

The real issue is not the lack of sex or the difference in libidos or whatever--but the inability of the couple to resolve the emotional issues circumventing the withholding of sex--the capacity of the couple to solve the problem as a team rather than blaming the other.

People who stray are often shocked to discover (usually after alot of therapy) how much they have actually avoided acknowledging these feelings and working on the emotional disatisfaction that lead to the straying.

Jeeze, I hate to say this. We (the guys) talk about this at work a lot. Just suffice to say that men are real funny about sex. I will admit that emotional problems weigh into a man wanting to stray, but sometimes it is simpler than that. Sometimes a guy is just plain , well, you know. HORRIBLE thing to say, but men are like that.

The smart man will like women, especially his wife. The smart man will want to be with his wife more than anyone, but if his wife is not available, he will eventually take whoever bats goo-goo eyes at him. Some men can resist, some can't. Men stray a lot more than what is reported in polls. In this marriage, I have not. Honest. Have I thought about it? Yep. Am I glad I didn't? Oh, yeah. As horrible as it is to say, when my spouse was more passionate, I didn't even think about straying. When she was not, after so long you start to look around a bit. Its when you touch that the trouble comes.

I know. I make men sound like puppies humping legs. There is some truth to that. Some men are just pigs, at least when it comes to sex. It shouldn't be that way, but it is. To deny it is fighting hundreds of thousands of years of male evolution. (Thats an oxymoron if there ever was one. Kind of like a Senate Intelligence Committee)

Just Learning seems to have really hit close to home. I bet there is some experience in there somewhere.

Hang in there! We are pulling for you.

I completey get what you guys are saying, but a lot of time, or at least in my case, withholding SF isn't about punishment. It's about just not wanting it. I get very little if any emotional intimacy from my H. I need emotional intimacy/connection to want SF with my H. So right now in my marriage, I have no desire for it.

It isn't any form of punishment. There is just no desire for it.

I have tried to talk with my H about this. I have been very proactive. He isn't interested.

I think what gets my feathers in a ruffle about this and some of the comments made here, is the focus on the W not meeting her H's physical needs, therefore he goes looking some where else. Where is the acknowledgement that the H isn't meeting the W's emotional needs, therefore she has no desire for SF.

"but if his wife is not available, he will eventually take whoever bats goo-goo eyes at him."

Quotes like this, sorry don't mean to pick on you, have a "just put out" tone about it. If the wife would just put out, everybody would be happy.

I just firmly believe, in my case anyway, that lack of SF in a marriage isn't just because the wife doesn't make herself available. Sometimes, sometimes, the H can blame himself for lack of physical intimacy because he isn't avaible to his W for the emotional intimacy she needs, something many if not most women need to want/desire physical intimacy.

Rubydoo,

I think you are misunderstanding something. I and others are saying the things we are to Married because she is here, and this is the part that SHE can work on. If her H showed up, he would get a long list of things for him to work on, including NOT 'begging' for sex.

You state you need an emotional connection to your H and this is very common for women. Yet, you also indicate that somehow HE is the one that has to make that connection, when in reality you both do. And if you need the emotional connection much more, then you have to make the connection.

Please remember that Harley listes sexual fulfillment as an EMOTIONAL need for a reason. It is one of the primary ways men connect emotionally. Which is why a male should not take his bat and ball and go play elsewhere, if the W cuts him off. Perhaps he should divorce her though. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

You may feel that taking SF off of the table of marriage is not punishment, but I'll bet you good money your H does.

You are correct in saying that she is not the one at fault. However, Pieta really nailed it. The fact that she made him "beg" her own words says alot about how she viewed her marriage and her spouse. It suggests some other very deep issues in the marriage, and clearly a lack of respect. The fact that the topic was sex is somewhat irrelavent, except that she happened to choose a high need area of his.

Fact of the matter is that studies show that men have sexual thoughts about every 10 seconds. Think about that, can you imagine it? Sex drive is KNOWN to be hormonal as well. To some extent what drives people with high sex drives is beyond their control, with regard to the drive. Telling them to take a cold shower is not solving the problem, nor is telling them you have no desire.

I am not saying that you should just become your H's sex slave, I am saying that it is a more important issue than many think, and usually that many is female. Although in the years that I have been here, a surprising (to me at least) number of women have come to this site complaining that their H's don't have a high enough drive, hence they have sought other companions. So this is NOT just a male issue.

Just some thoughts. I wonder if Married will return, what do you think?

God Bless,

JL

I didn't mean to say that if the wife would just put out, everyone would be happy. I did go to great lengths to say that men are pigs and are like puppies humping legs, even though we know we are not supposed to be like that. NO, all the problems are not solved my merely having the female "put out". I wish it were that easy.

At least for me personally, merely having the wife "put out" would not be the solution for sex problems. I would much prefer her to enjoy it on at least some level. I won't go into gory details, but men talk about this, too. If the wife doesn't get into sex on some level, we refer to it as "sympathy sex" or a "mercy &^%!". It is absolutely horrible for me to write this, but just know that it is out there.

To Ruby and anyone else, please don't take this as justification for men screwing around. I know that there is a lot of pain involved in affairs, and there is no justification for that kind of pain. I'm just giving you an insight into the male mind, as ugly as it may be. By gaining insight into the male mind, then maybe problems can be put in context and worked on BEFORE an affair happens.Personally, I am VERY happy with the conclusions that our sad poster has made.

Well, I feel I have a humble and meager experience to offer. I've been married for 7 years. The story of Married is very similar to my marriage. For the first year we lived together and the next 7 years. We had virtually no sex life. I sacraficed my needs for the sake of the relationship. Hoping that she would someday change. There was some mercy and sympathy stuff in there or at least that's how I felt about it at times, but I could probably count on my hands and toes, how many times we had sex in 7 years. She was very similar to Married, absolutely no drive no libido whatsoever even if I did go to great lengths to meet her needs. We are just starting to work out the complex and intricate issues tied to this. And until about 6 months or a year ago, she didn't think sex was anything important. After all is just all about having a baby and that's all we need it for.

However, sex or no sex is no reason or justification to cheat on a relationship or have an A. I can't say what I would have done if the opportunity presented itself to me in the last 6 years. But, I held to my code of honor and moral codes with all my strength until I broke down and finally said, either this relationship is changing or I'm done. I was surprised to hear from her that she really didn't think anything was wrong with the relationship until I said something.

As a man with a very high sex drive, I couldn't believe that. I felt so rejected and so unimportant to my W for 7 years and she didn't think anything was wrong at all! Which made me in some ways, feel worse, because how could she possibily think there's not something wrong. Things have been improving in the last few months. Now that we understand each other and are voicing ourselves better to each other. We're working at getting better, I've been rejected and lost for so long that it's hard to open up now. But now that she's understanding our relationship better, this is something I need to work through too.

I just want to express what others have said here. Sex is possibly one of the most important needs to men. If a woman rejects that need, it would be the same as a man rejecting the need of emotional affection or romantic courtship a woman needs. It'd be the same as saying, who needs romance, you certainly don't. The woman would most likely feel unimportant, hurt, and well unimportant to the man saying that to her. So by saying no to sex the same exact thing is happening.

OK guys...I'm back and just as confused (well, not quite). WH and I shared a bottle of wine and his defensive walls just came tumbling down...He never could hold his liquor. It speaks the truth.

I took the advice on this forum and had him contact OW#2 and man oh man, was she wiley!

He cried more after I hung up and pleaded with me to stop the investigation. He continued to say that there had been one other OW#3 six months ago, but she grew weary of waiting for her turn. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

We spent the night drinking wine and I was feeling vindicated and powerful...until the wine took its effects on him. He revealed:

1. The younger woman was good

2 He gave OW#1 a gold necklace, because he wanted to "show off."

3. He admitted that he called her "baby." That was MY pet name for over 30 years.

5. He said repeatedly, "It was sex. Just sex. I expect her to just move on. The other woman OW#2 doesn't care about me...She likes her life....I keep telling you, BABY [b]BABY , it was just sex."

6. After I questioned if he'd be able to leave the sweet young thing alone (OW#2), and expressed my understanding of how hard it would be, he said, "Are you trying to sell her?"

7. He said he became angry and told himself, "Look at her...She's got all of that and won't give any of it to me, so I'm going to get some for myself."

So, the night ended with me writing a true "love buster" note and I ripped off my "freakin' dress" as the night ended with him snoring.

His truthful and wine induced comments cut me to the quick. JL and my fellow boardsters, my WH has never, ever talked to me in this manner. Other things were said as well, but the ones above curled my eyelashes.

I did not need to hear...I should never have pressed. The cougar called him at his office and said, "What were you two doing? Were you having testimonials and a 'Come to Jesus Minute?"

She further said, "Don't worry, I won't call or bother you."

No further contact from OW#1, as she should have rec'd. her NC letter today.

I really need to buy the entire book for this site, as the LB are coming out of my pores. Reprobateman and JL, I had not one clue about the sex thing....I am so intimidated and fearful.

No, I know he must keep the appt. for IC on Thurs....No, I don't think instant sex will repair this...Yes, I am praying fervently.....But I can't stop the voices in my head. I really want to slap him silly....then I want to love him with all my heart.

He has expressed remorse and it is very, very genuine. No, I know I didn't meet this need....But couldn't SOMETHING else have been done?

I feel so destroyed and humiliated. Yes, it was very much like being in a bakery without being able to sample....I was so foolish and naive. I love this man with all my heart and though he has broken our vows, I believe he loves me as has been repeatedly said.

But....I just don't know how to keep sane. The days are murder...the nights are a little better because we have reinstituted cuddling. I need to stop the LB comments, because I can see him take a deep breath each time.

SEX. My God. I swear...I just NEVER in a million years recognized the impact....He was ALWAYS hot...I used to be just as hot....******, that was well over 20 years ago and I thought he needed it less.

Lovelost65, You sound so much like the woman my WH would probably wish I had been! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> He takes every vitamin known to man too.

I do know what I like, but it will have to wait, the "Full Monty" must wait until the STD check this week-end. I know what has been said here and I do so pray you are right, JL. I just feel inadequate when I compare...Won't he compare...This one thought has been making me as insecure as I have EVER felt in my entire adult life!

The impact and the knowledge has been overwhelming...I continue to try Plan A and I pray.

Oh Married,

This is tough stuff, but you don't see it like those of us here do. I see a lot of promise and I think you will be just fine. However, it will take time and alot of recovery will hurt.

Let's start with the sex thing and move on from there. First, you can and will compare because you do love him. Second, the big love buster was not the frequency but the fact that he had to beg.
Third, intimacy will occur in its time and the time is not right now. So calm down OK?

Now for the things he said. He called the young one by your nick name. You may think that bad, but I think it is good. Here is why. Pardon this round about approach. Consider porn. Most women don't care for it. Most men are attracted even if they stay away. What attracts most men? It seems to be the images, but it is not the images one sees on paper. It often is the image that they (the men) are desired by a woman willing to put herself out there. It is a fantasy and more often than not the men are not comparing their spouse to them, but if push came to shove they might wish their spouse was a bit more adventurous. So where is this going. If he is calling her by YOUR nick name, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> then it is likely this was alot like a porn fantasy and you were part of it in a strange way. Suggests he is still connected to you. Now you could be insulted by this, but I think it shows the connection you need to rebuild this marriage.

The #2 woman, seems a bit like a predator, but meets the fantasy that he is desired. Again, the fantasy is now gone. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Now enough about sex. Let's get down to issues of rebuilding this marriage. Have you read the articles on this site? If not do so. I would also recommend Harley's book Surviving an Affair. There are patterns to this and as you become aware of them you will better understand the dynamics of his affair, and of the recovery process.

You are hurt, you are mad, and you are feeling awfully betrayed, right? Well, you should be feeling these things right now, so you are perfectly normal. He is feeling very ashamed, perhaps a bit angry that the fantasy is gone, and probably a bit lost. He definitely will feel guilt.

Now right now the guilt is sort of good, but eventually his guilt if it is not changed to remorse, and then acceptance of his failures, will cause problems for recovery. You don't want a "pet" for a husband, you don't want a scounderal for one either. You want a man sharing your life and you sharing his right?

So the idea in the next few weeks is for you to get through some of the pain, and then to start to work on a plan. Your H may have withdrawal from these affairs. He may not. But gradually he is going to need a way to work his way back into this marriage and your life. You will need to provide him this path. And oddly, the path does not include hoops for him to jump over, but boundaries and guidelines for the both of you.

You have heard the saying "the best revenge is a life well lived." Well, if you have a bit of ????? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> in you, then your best revenge is to love him and have him fall madly in love with your again. Trust me you won't have to punish him at all he will do more than enough.

So calm down, face your feelings, educate yourself, and realize you can and will work your way through this and YES, your H will help you once he gets his head in the light again <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

You are doing well, you are where you should be this early, it will get better, there are things to work on and overcome. You both need to heal, and it will come as a surprise to you, but your H may well need to heal more than you. He has done a lot of damage to himself, and his self-image.

Relax, read, learn, and then plan. I know it sounds ODD, I know it sounds counter intuitive, but it does work. Oh, and if you know of a good pro-marriage counselor seek him/her out and you and your H go.

Must go, but I hope this helps.

God Bless,

JL

In vino, veritas. If you don't know what that means, your homework assignment is to look it up.

You said you feel intimidated and fearful. Intimidation and fear comes from lack of knowledge and understanding, as well as the unknown. I've given you some insight into the abyss that is the male mind. JustLearning has not given you merely some insight, but the encyclopedia britannica. Whenever I read JustLearning's posts, I find that even if I try, I can't truly disagree with anything he says. Thus, please let your feelings of fear and intimidation melt away. You are now armed with knowledge, and you seem to have the will to use that weapon for your benefit.

I am more and more impressed with the obvious amount of time that JustLearning has taken to respond to you and think things through. If he was around, I would buy him a beer!

I can only get a limited feel for what is going on in your life through the written word. However, I am getting some good vibes about the future of your relationship. Why?

1. Your husband has royally screwed up using the ancient method known as "screwing around". He knows it, and feels bad about it. He hasn't run off for the greener grass, but is still hanging around. He seems to still love you.

2. While you are very understandably hurt and pissed, you haven't run off, and there seems to be no mention of any greener grass that you want to graze in. You still love him.

3. As to WHY he roamed around where he shouldn't have been roaming, you seem to know the reasons why. While you can't control what he does with his p*&^s, you have decided to take control of the normal excuses that men give when they decide to let their wagger get in the wind instead of in their pants.

4. Therefore, I see 2 things left:
-----A. Keep up the good work in discovering what was lovebusting behavior on your part, and don't do it anymore.
-----B. Here comes the hard part. Your husband has to wise up, modify his behavior and treat you nice, and stop putting things where they don't belong, and not give YOU a reason to lovebust.

5. I am so used to law school outlining that I need this 5th point because odd numbers seem to look better when you are outlining them. Therefore, this 5th bullet has no use but to waste bandwidth and your time. I will close by saying that Smithwick's beer is OK out of the bottle, but is much better on tap, however is more expensive.

Seriously. Keep it up! Make sure to let us know the latest. Listen to JustLearning, who has obviously stopped merely just learning and has graduated to teaching. He has switched from girlie drinks to single-malt cask strength scotch, WITHOUT the ice. A man's man.

I want to begin by thanking my fellow mb tutors. I could not be sitting in this house without the knowledge I have gained here.

Today was such a hard day...Rubydoo, you and pieta were so right, as my enthusiasm waned today. I made a very important discovery due to your posts regarding my own EN. I swear to you all here, that I didn't think I had needs that weren't being met....Sigh. I thought I was fine in that department, but of course, I'm not.

Reprobatemind, ahopefulone and of course, Justlearning, you have helped me so much. Just a tiny peek into the adult male's mind....Who knew you guys thought like that!!??? I don't have a brother, male cousin, etc. You guys were just such a mystery to me! I appreciate the outlines and homework, RM. Teachers like that stuff! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Justlearning, you are such a gift...A man's man gift!

What makes everyone here soooo smart? So knowing? I feel totally stupid. Of course I have unmet EN! Has my WH met them? Well, no. Did I meet his? We know that I didn't. Such a very simple, yet complex concept! I never knew. I keep saying it, because it is so true.

My WH does not seem unduly upset. He must be, but he is very adept at keeping it all under the radar. He does not have his cellphone and I keep worrying about what will happen when he must get another. Those visions of the text messages keep swirling around in my head.

He talked to OW#1 for 30 to 40 min. at a time. The total number of min. for me was 3 min. My calls amounted to , "Shall I pick up bread?" This man doesn't open up easily about feelings. Dear God...He kissed me good-bye and said he loved me. I wasn't out of the house 10 min. before he called her. I have NEVER gotten a morning loving call...never. I am angry. I am angry. I feel like I could punch someone. If I could line up OW#1, OW#2 and WH, I'd like to issue one resounding Three Stooges slap.

Today I resent him just sitting there at the dinner table with his patient smile, waiting for his Plan A.

He has said, "Just give me the opportunity to show you that I love you, Baby." (ugh, I hate that name now, JL, I don't care!)

I am trying so hard. He is too. I want to say that the cuddling and the extra curricular activities have been very enlightening! I learned things about myself in this instance too. Another shocker for me! As suggested, I was selfish and I have NEVER been selfish...it has always been about him! I didn't have a clue that I put him before myself in EVERYTHING!!!

I think I may be reacting to his STD tests, which are tomorrow..How dare he put me at risk? Where was his consideration for me? How could he allow his behavior to impact on my health?

I resisted the overwhelming urge today, to call and e-mail the OW and issue one "Let me just tell you one thing, you scandalous [email]B@@###!"[/email]

I wanted to so badly...I had to literally sit on my hands, squeeze my eyes shut and pray. Of course, the problem is within my R, not with these women. However, I still believe the H of the OW should be told...my reasons are vengeful...I don't want to do it so that their marriages can be salvaged and I'm ashamed.

I am venting here so that I may keep the LB at bay...I have not been successful today. I am so angry. Just hurt and angry.

My WH has done nothing but be nice, respectful of my feelings and the usual behavior. I keep wondering, "Where is that sexpot that everyone else saw?" Today is so hard. I can't say this enough.

Don't leave me just yet...There is still so much for me to do and learn. I am keeping ahopefulone's prayer in my bottom dresser drawer, because I am so low right now. I don't feel loved or lovable. I'm disappointed in myself today. I took a gigantic step backwards today.

I'm not that smart and knowing, but what I do know I can share with you. If you have any other questions about the dark chasm that is known as the male mind, ask away.

Vent, vent, and vent some more. That is why I started posting here, and it helped.

Hang in there.

Married,

I shouldn't be smiling at your last post but I must confess I am. Fasten your seatbelt you are on the "emotional rollercoaster" and the good news is you get a seasons pass...free! The bad news...you have a seasons pass...free!

You are doing fine really, although I know you are hurting. While he is sitting there smiling at you and wanting to help, why not asking what his plan is to rebuild this marriage? What is his plan to rebuild your trust? What procedures does he have in mind to easy your suspicions about him contacting these women again? Has he consider counseling so that you two can understand why this happened and what to do to prevent it?

Don't ask these with anger, ask them with the deep sadness that is in your heart right now. Just look at him and ask him what is the plan.

Oh! and if Baby doesn't work for you, please explain that since you AND his OW were his "Baby" you would prefer that he not use that name with you again. Sounds petty doesn't it? But, it does trigger you doesn't it. The point is tell him calmly and without anger.

This is part of "radical honesty" remember if you read up on "radical honesty" it is not supposed to be brutal honesty.

Keep talking, keep posting and asking questions, and please do some reading on this site. Once you have your feet on the ground and you have a better idea of the patterns involved with this stuff you will find you will be able to make good decisions and your marriage can recover. But, also realize that Harley claims as do other counselors that it takes two years for a marriage to fully recover, if not longer. Not to say things won't be better in a few months, but there will still be triggers, there will still be images, and there will still be the sadness and pain.

It takes time and patience MF30Y. You can do it though.

God Bless,

JL

Justlearning and Reprobatemind, and the rest of my new friends, I must confess, that "rollercoaster" is NOT an appropriate name for what I am going through. I definitely want to give back my free pass.

I took your adviceJL and talked to my WH again. With a few LB thrown in (I seemed to be unable to stop them) he said a few things that registered.

He steadfastly contends that he did not and does not love OW#2 or OW#1. When I reminded him that she shared parts of him that I hadn't he still stuck to his story. He has his IC Tues, with the male partner of a husband/wife team. After his initial visit, I am to attend IC with the wife.

He sat with his blood test bandaid on his arm from the STD tests and swore repeatedly, that "It was only sex." "If there is something more, then I don't know what it is."

I asked him for his plans to rebuild and this was done without anger on my part, but I will tell you one thing....the good professor is not able to address the issue with much clarity. He says that he will not contact these OW and that he has told OW#1 after she both called and came by his office before he retired.

I had no idea she'd done both. I asked why? What else? She had a NCletter, a call on DDay....and she STILL needed more closure? He said, she wanted to convince him that he was making a mistake...What the ####*?

I couldn't hold it! I smacked him! I told him all of the definitive things he should have told her. I told him all of the things that I felt HE should have been feeling. He sat there blinking. His response? "Well, YOU weren't there, so I said what I thought to say." "I don't talk like you, so I did the best I could."

Now guys, I ask you, isn't this a bit obtuse? My WH is not an unintelligent man...he is usually plain spoken and does not waste words. How!!!??! How!!!???!!! How can he be such putty in this girl's hands? I mean, is that the best he could do? It sounded soooo lame and I told him just that. I am only praying that they didn't have one last "good-bye."

I want to believe him when he said there was no last stab of intimacy. He has said he will get another phone in due time and that he does not want to lose me. He mentioned house projects to occupy his time (boring in comparison, I'm sure) and that he will take me to work many mornings. I just HATE driving to work and he knows this. He also said that I will just have to let him show me that he is making an effort.

I don't feel so special. I don't feel as though he will be able to fight for me, the way I am fighting for him. I can't believe that this entire slant on my world was created by someone who loves me. I vascilate back and forth over this one point.

We went to see a play and followed it with dancing...Dirty dancing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> WH and I are from the disco era....We dance VERY well together. I have never done THIS type of dancing though, in public. Well, to be honest, I have only done these moves in the mirror after a shower. After dancing, there was a very intimate session. I was greedy and impulsive, because the test results won't be back until Tues. or Wed.

I was angry with myself and angry with him as he lay there with that satisfied smile...I don't see how he can just receive such an outpouring from me and NOT show signs of ...........I don't know....SOMETHING!!!!!!! He had a VERY young OW show him this same attention. I was able to speak up and the results were astounding. But still, I imagine she was lithe and supple. The fact that he's admitted the sex was "good" makes me want to throw something. He admires my figure and always has....but I didn't know it was being stacked up against someone else's.

I know...You guys have said that it will be fine.....an attentive wife in bed......But you see, I don't FEEL fine. I keep thinking that he will long for that young, soft, and fluffy little sex kitten. I shared this with him, and he has assured me that he will be fine...we will be fine...he just wants his marriage to include a sex life. I'm fine one minute with this, and the next minute I feel like "closing the gate to the corral, and telling him the old mare has gone to the pasture."

I will be going to Walden's tomorrow to purchase my books. I've read here, but somehow, I just see my WH getting the perks, while I'm left trying to please the ****** out of him with my Plan A. I don't want to hit anyone today. Today, I just want a mini makeover. I wish I could turn off the voices in my head! I love my husband and he loves me, but...My God....the girl was 28!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hang. In. There...!

vent vent vent away....

I'm surprised that you still want to stay with him. If I did that to my wife, divorce would be guaranteed. No Plan A, B, XYZ or nothin'. I really admire you, honestly.

A mini-makeover? Sounds like a good plan! For yourself, not for him.

The jealousy will simmer for awhile, then taper off as time goes on. Just hang in there and let us know how you are doing. However...

This Bull&*%! about your husband, the OW, no contact letters, phone calls, etc. has got to &^%!ing STOP! Yes, I agree that his response to you was uber-lame. The new phone in due time? Looks like we're due!

Hang in there.

Married,

Now you have me laughing or at least laughing at part of what you said. You asked
After you
Putty in HER hands, I ask? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> He just sat there and let YOU abuse him. Would YOU have tolerated such behavior from him? I doubt it seriously. I find it interesting that you fail to see the obvious. The man WANTS to be your H badly or he would NOT have tolerated what you have done.

Given that if you keep it up, you will lose your H. Abuse is not an acceptable way to deal with this and YOU know it. If you don't want him, leave him, divorce him. You have the right, but you don't have the right to abuse him anymore than he has the right to abuse you. I hope I am making myself very very clear here.

You have great power over him and you are abusing it. Stop it!

You also said Of course not, that is why I suggested you ask him. First of all he does not have a plan, just hopes. Second of all he like many who come here fail to understand that like dieting and many other things a plan is necessary for one to meet their goals. He doesn't have a plan because he does not understand relationships. If he wants to develop a plan he either needs to come here, get good counseling, or do a lot of reading on the subject. You do as well.

He needs information he doesn't have, and you need to get a grip in your emotions. This stuff takes time, it takes baby steps, and it takes work. But, most of all it takes care from all concerned.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

i don't really have a lot of input on your sitch except for your feelings of inadequecy and the younger woman thing.

i was "traded in for a younger model" so to speak. and it does destroy your self esteem. and i am only 36! at the time i was 33-34 and ow was early 20's. it is hard. i am very sensitive to how this makes me feel. i started to feel like geez, why would any man my age want me when they can have an early 20something. even though i think i keep myself up and try to stay young, you know,all the high maintenance type stuff, there is no way i can compete with a 20something.

so i understand how you are feeling. BUT, i also came to this realization. I DON'T WANT A MAN WHO WANTS A YOUNG 20 SOMETHING. i am an attractive woman and i have a lot to offer a man. i should not have to even think of competing with a younger woman dammit, there is NOTHING wrong with me! i can be fun and flirty and very sexual. i am smart, i am funny, i am sexy.

i grew to learn that my ex is so enthralled with younger ow because she worships the ground he walks on. she is all "oooo and awwww" over the fact that he is older. she thinks he is tough and macho. she may be attractive on the outside but she is not the smartest crayon in the pack. those who know her have even said that. so, he likes em young and dumb so that he can be in control and be worshipped. good for him. i long for more than that out of a relationship.

you don't need to compete. you are hot and sexy and flirty and fun at your age. screw those younger women! they can't stand up to you or to me sweetheart!

mlhb

I am ashamed of myself, JustLearning and of course....You are right again. I had no right to smack my WH and this will never happen again...My anger just overwhelmed me. I'm usually a soft spoken person. I'm not violent in any way, nor has there been violence in our R. You are so right, as I never would have tolerated this from him, or anyone.

I did feel that he could have been more direct in his responses regarding the OW#1 and his plan for rebuilding our M. Again, you are correct....He doesn't have a plan. This is a man who has written course descriptions, exams, lesson plans ad nauseum.....But he has no plan for us.

I was outraged more than just a little, because the few details that I have regarding OW#1 and 2 are hurtful. I wish I didn't know....and I want to know more. It's confusing and making me weary.

You are also correct, JL, I am taking advantage of his guilt and remorse. He does need counseling...I do too, but it all seems to be moving in slow motion.

I will do better at keeping my outbursts and LB at bay..I will do as you have said and just "stop it." It's unseemly behavior and frankly, it really isn't the person that I am. If you guys knew me, you'd think I was a terrific person...really. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I will continue to take my baby steps. I will continue to make more attempts to understand the mb concepts. I think this is the key that is missing for me. I can't seem to grasp this new info for an age old problem. Reading it in bursts and spurts isn't working as well for me. I will as stated, have my mb materials tomorrow.

JustLearning, I don't know what it is that you do....but I bet you're not being paid nearly enough. Thank you again, for putting me back on solid ground. You are rough! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

mlhb, you DO get it! I know all of what you have shared is so true. My WH has not said that the OW#1 adores and looks up to him, but I'm sure that is the case. You are also right...no one wants a H who desires a broken Barbie that has a hole drilled into the top of her head. I'm just so taken aback, because my WH just didn't appear to be this type of man.

You are a young woman and to think....I don't understand men at all.

I am ok. You are ok. I guess I just needed to hear it again. I'm turning on the waterworks now!

You mb people are amazing. Thank you for taking the time to post. I appreciate it so much. Happy M Day.

mlhb,

Being a guy, I often am not certain I can address uncertainties such as you have had about younger women. Men have them as well, but it doesn't seem to be as a common occurance. However, having said this, let me assure you, that men's idea of beauty does not change. However, their idea of attractive and sexy really does. At least for most men.

You, young lady aren't even to your prime yet. Really, a truly attractive woman has: experience, some laugh lines on her face, a body she knows and respects, and a love of life. That comes with age mlhb and you are not really even there yet. Men do find women attractive at all ages and it is because we don't see what you see. We don't really notice the lines but can become facinated with them. We don't really notice the sags, but can become enamored with them. It is hard for me to explain what I see when I look at women and/or my W, but it is not what women see.

Your H's problem wasn't your age, but your intellect. He craved a bimbo. It wasn't your appearance either, because his issues of control and needing to feel important superceded issues of appearance. He was a fool, and will be a fool and a lonely one at that. Because HE is aging as well and he won't have as much to offer.

So you are right, you don't want a man that thinks 20 something bimbo's are the way to go. You don't have to worry about competing with younger women, you just need to pick a higher class of man. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />.

God Bless,

JL

Ok Married,

First let's agree on something . I agree <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> so does my W, and kids. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> But, alas, a scientist is NOT going to be Bill Gates. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

You do realize that your H is putty in your hands right? You do realize that you have enormous power and right now you are giving it to two OW's that don't deserve it nor should have control over your life? You do realize that if YOUR H has any brains at all he is feeling very very ashamed of himself?

Given that you come to realize this, it is time to calm down. You have power and control, use it wisely.

Married, it is unlikely he will say things as you want him to, although it does sound as if he did send her on her way. That is good. You need to realize neither of you can control the other, nor can you speak or think for one another. That does not mean you both don't need protection from this.

You also said I already do think you are. It was evident from your first post. Hence I and others are replying to you.

You also need to sit down and really examine what you need to know. Some people need ALL of the details, some think they do and then regret that, others KNOW they need just the parts that will guide them with minimum being the guide. There is no right level, it is your call so think about it. ANd then proceed from there.

The idea is to understand what has happened and why. But, your H needs to figure this out as well. It was not just you not being as enthusiastic in bed as perhaps you were in the past. The 'begging' was part of it, but I suspect it is NOT what you think.

Consider these women and how they treated them. Recall he was/is a professor used to and probably expecting people to respect him, it is a strong weakness of professors I might add. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> So then consider how "begging" might have affected him. Now I think HE needs to figure some of this out for himself, but if you understand it, then you will be able to better handle the ups and downs.

As for a plan, keep asking, pretty soon he will figure out that he must do something to get a plan together. Of course he has no idea, because marriage and relationships are NOT his area of expertise, but...they will be right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

This stuff does move in slow motion except when it is going down the drain. The good news is your situation is NOT going down the drain. So hang in there, and give this time. It does take patience as well.

God Bless,

JL

thank you just learning, you worded it perfectly. "a higher class of man" and you know what? i certainly have one of those now.

amen!

mlhb

((( M430 )))

So sorry you find yourself in the situation that you are in, but you certainly made a very smart choice in finding and posting on this mb...Just keep listening to the wise posters here and you will not only endure, but change and grow, along with your marriage in all probability.

Iced tea.......... about 30 cents
Computer.......... about 700 dollars
MB Posters ....... priceless

My husband too had an affair with a much younger woman... one that lasted for years and he still may be hanging on to it. I am a couple of years older than you are, so I know exactly how (well pretty close) you are feeling.

I am certainly, in no way, making light of your painful situaiton, but at least, from my POV, be thankful that your husband has admitted his failings and your's to you, and that you now have a place in which to build from.

My husbands affair was years long and he will not even ADMIT that it happened.. He is a conflict avoider in the highest degree !! Me - ahh... not so much...

I do see your marriage as not only repairable but one that is stronger and deeper for you both...

Don't you ??

Oh Carnation, I am so sorry....I get ill thinking of a younger woman lacking in moral character to cheat with a MM. Silly and outdated is my thinking, if I just sit in the teacher's lounge and listen. The strange thing is this: I was NOT EVER in tune to these conversations before.

Oh, I knew a few of the younger teachers were promiscuous. I knew a few of the male teachers vamped and glommed onto any new and fresh face that entered into the school arena...but I was so in love with my own secure and smug little world. I never let their conversations enter into my consciousness. I never thought it applied to my own R. How vain. How naive and prim I was.

Do I understand that you think your H is still involved with the OW? My God...I am so sorry. I'm sorry we are both here, but I do have hope for my M. Thank you for responding, offering an empathetic ear and knowing how this has affected me (from one er...slightly older woman to another). I wish for healing of your M too. God bless you.

JustLearning and Reprobatemind! MB friends!

I have my books!! It's like the first day of class. I spent the early part of the evening in the bookstore, sipping coffee and reading.

The hardest part was asking for the book, "Surviving An Affair." I put on my game face and tried to look as though I was just looking for an interesting little ditty to read. I really didn't have to bother, because the clerk just pulled it out of hiding and slapped it on the counter, with no further ado. (I might add that it was the last copy and I was so relieved to have it in my hands, at last).

I will admit that I feel empowered with this new tool. Somehow, it feels as though I have now "invested" in my future with my WH. It is strangely moving...I sat there with tears in my eyes, under my sunglasses reading the first case study. Dr. Harley's explanations and descriptions seem so much more poignant in the printed form, versus my reading on this site.

I felt so sad sitting there in the coffee section. I must also confess that the A came back in waves...no anger this time, just an overwhelming outpouring of misery and sadness.

I already recognize myself...I REALLY saw the words and truly heard them for the first time...Every marriage is vulnerable. EVERY MARRIAGE!! Who knew? I certainly thought my WH and I were insulated from this particular pain this time around.

It is apparent, that I didn't truly learn from the A twenty years ago. The problem of unmet EN's of my WH were addressed then. Mine were as well, but it seems that I forgot all about my own and distanced myself from his.

So, I am writing this evening with renewed hope and vigor. I guess I'm still on that darn rollercoaster. I was ambivalent when leaving for work this morning, as this is his first day of retirement. I envisioned him calling OW, but I put it out of my mind and said a quick prayer for us both. He goes for IC in the morning, and I am so anxious for communication. I crave it. I want us to begin anew.

My last point is this. I began to read last week on another site, which is also dedicated to infidelity, etc. It was not a good match for me, as the posters were much more bitter and well......I didn't register, because the "fit" just wasn't right. I would become angrier and angrier with my WH, OW#1 and OW#2.

I never got to read the information contained within the site, only the very depressed, sad and angry posters. The respondents were just as angry. Empathetic, yes, but angry to be sure. In the midst of my storm, I was finding it more and more difficult to pray. I was emerging from my little office more and more enraged, every time I visited the two different boards. It is a relief to have purchased my reading materials and to reconcile myself to the MB concepts.

I am very relieved to be here. I am very grateful to be here. I am extremely thankful to be given another chance to redeem myself, stop being verbally abusive <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> and reclaim my M, JustLearning.

Pssst, Married,

Want to have some fun???? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> Leave your Surviving an Affair lying about when you go to school. Don't say anything just leave it where your H "just might stumble" up on it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Don't say anything, don't question if he glanced at it, just leave it about when you are off doing something. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Now you know us guys, we don't do relationships and buying a relationship book....PULLEEEZE. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> The book will do him a lot of good, but only IF he reads it for himself. You will find a much better explanation of everything here in the books as well as His Needs Her Needs. Harley is basic, pragmatic, and right on.

We can offer you help because these things have a pattern...a strong pattern. So it doesn't take much to realize what the next step is.

You are doing well Married, much better than you realize, and I think that this whole experience will lead you and your H to some places in your marriage you have never been, good places. It will take some time, some tears, some "scar tissue on the tongue", that would be for you Married. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

But, this can be done. Hang in there.

God Bless,

JL

Yo, JustLearning. That's cold, dude. Thats just plain wrong. I mean, I would really hate it if she left that book, in, say, the teacher's lounge will all of the newly minted teachers who tramp around with the older married men and caused some commotion. And I would HATE to hear all of the jui..er...sad details about uncomfortable glances to each other around the room if a certain person were to do that. It would also be tragic if a certain poster's husband glanced at the book.

This would be horrible! It might cause hurt feelings and feelings of guilt to those who screw around in marriages, and we can't have and crises of conscious at an institute of higher learning can we?

Excuse me while I pry my tongue out of my cheek.

ReprobateMind, I am continually amused and amazed by JustLearning. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Don't worry, I would NEVER take my book to work, for fear my principal would think I was trying to entrap him.

My principal is an equal opportunity CHEATER. He gives everyone a chance...He's especially adept at ensnaring the young teachers, but has had trysts with at least two disgruntled older teachers who were willing to talk in private. We now have a young and attractive janitor who has a penchant for tight jeans...Her summer at the school will more than likely result in her becoming the latest "Clean Up Woman."

Now, JustLearning, your idea of leaving the book for my WH is very intriguing. While I always respected his privacy, aka secrecy, he is quite nosey. He won't be able to resist, so I'll leave it tomorrow. He will never mention it though, in any shape, form or fashion. That's just the way he is after he's snooped.

My WH's IC began today and he said he was able to talk openly during the session. He shared that he was asked what he would do if he saw the OW#1 out and about. He said, "Well, if she was with someone, I'd just walk right by, but if she was alone, I'd just say hello." "That's it." "Just hello." I'm thinking to myself, "Right...Just hello." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

At some point the counselor mentioned HIV testing (results came back negative today) and that he must observe NC ! My WH thinks this is something he can do. He insists that it was only sex. He also said the text messaging was thrilling, as it was sexual in content.

We were able to sit and talk calmly. Did you hear me, JustLearning? My tongue is just learning as well.

WH says that he disagrees with my assessment of his A when I mention that there may be more involved than sex. After all, he admitted that he purchased her a $150. gold necklace on Valentine's Day, after insisting he'd only purchased candy. He stonewalled for two entire days until he confessed.

You MB friends must understand...my WH does not like to spend money....he's a tiny bit cheap. For him to have spent this amount of money is equivalent to the diamond from the Titanic. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I reiterated that he must have a plan and today he was a bit more focused. He has said that he has begun the plan by deciding to have IC and the STD tests. He is still pretty vague, but he said he will try to restore my trust, by showing me in daily acts.

This is more than he was able to articulate in the past. SIGH. I used to think we were a good match in high school, because he was the strong and SILENT jock...I was the more mature, yet talkative cheerleader. Look at us now. He told me today, that I have said things about OW and the A that are untrue and that I am saying things according to what I would have done or thought. This may be very true. My goal tomorrow is to be a more attentive listener.

If you think I type a lot, you should hear me talk! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I'm sensitive too, though. I am the one at the party who will make you feel comfortable if you don't know anyone...I will be dying inside myself with shyness....but I will interact. I wish I had been more of a listener to my WH. I thought I was. I still admire him so much...He has such good qualites. You would like him. Most people do and would be shocked at his latest behavior. I'm just so disappointed in him now.

And so, my friends, I am going to read more tonight and say my prayers. Again, I thank you all, as my rollercoaster held steady today. No two days have been the same.....

married - I really enjoy your writing. And I think things are going to be just fine for you and your husband. It will take some work, but I expect you to have a better marriage than before.

So you are NOT going to take the book to work and let the "clean up woman" and all of the disgruntled wayward wives look at it? Darn, I mean, good, because that would be cold-blooded. :-( I mean :-)

Just Learning, please. I need you now.
Today, I encountered DDay2...My WH has been lying to me for the past two weeks. I finished a few chapters in SA and it made me wonder. Everything was right on the money, except one thing... My WH gave up OW#1 too quickly for it to have the ring of truth for me, in my heart.

I was right. He pleaded with me to come home.

When I returned, everything just unraveled, no matter what I had tried to do or say. When he became angry, it was then that I knew, and said to myself, "You just wouldn't listen...You had to do it your own way....You have pried and snooped and now, your husband has reached his point of no return." He continued to promise and plead, that he had NC.


As I said, my reading in the SA kicked in periodically and I was eerily calm. I had to be, because NOW my WH is telling me that I caused this matter to escalate out of control...He said I just had to keep digging and snooping until I "flipped him, flopped him and turned him inside out." He kept saying, "Why?" "Why didn't you just let me do it my way?" "You just wouldn't stop." "So now you know I'm a liar." "I'll get out of your life." "Just kick my *** out of here."

Sadly. Perhaps stupidly, I decided then and there, that if I could endure this much pain, then I would begin a Plan A that was not corrupt. You know, he is so right...I did instinctively know...I couldn't shake the doubt. I have loved and lived with this man for 30 years...I just didn't realize the depth of his involvement.

SA states that WH will lie and lie ever so vehemently, but this is one for the books...it's probably one for THAT book.

We called the phone co. and he got an even NEWER #, which he did NOT give to me.

He raged and cried himself to sleep. I sit here and type, while I quietly die inside. I just thought I was fearful before. This is now in another realm.

How do you stand it here? Don't you just hate the stupidity and naivity of a poster who'd plead for advice and support....and then fail to follow through?

He vacillated between pledging love for me, saying it was still "just sex" and cursing and vowing that I could never forget this episode in our marriage.

Now I yearn to return to yesterday. Isn't that just about the most ridiculous and sad story you have ever heard?

Sorry to hear the news. WSs can be so evil....


This was a mistake. You should never *threaten* exposure. You should just do it. The time between your threat and your action will be used by a WS to gaslight their spouse into thinking you're some sort of crazy woman, that you're uttering lies, that you set this all up yourself, etc.

Fortunately, it's a mistake that is easily fixed.

Hi Married:

Unfortunately, no, it's not the most ridiculous and sad story I've heard. It is very similar to many of the stories here. You are NOT ALONE in this.

I agree with MiM- please talk to OW's husband today. He really needs to know what's going on, and he can be a strong ally for you. Your husband is irrational right now. He will improve after "no contact" has been solidified.

Hang in there.
~Saturn

Married for 30,

I've been married for 33 next week. Check my sig line...I know what you're feeling, sort of. (EA not PA).

I feel for you but you've got great help.

Like the book title, YOU CAN SURVIVE. I endured what you're experiencing with no MB support....and survived to receive an absolute miracle...once the fog lifted from my WH.

Keep posting ..... we're here for you....well, others are....I can't post from work, but I can pray.

Ace

My W had online interactions just like Ace's H. online video, some phone contact, and email. At the same time avoiding anything physical with me for the last 7 years.

We are just now starting to figure out what went wrong. a year and a half after the last incident. There has been no additional contact other than one text message which she told me about and responded appropriately to.

I'm just glad we are figuring things out now instead of many more years down the road. Married, there's always hope for you no matter what path you have to take. One of the issues I had to deal with was finding my identity in myself and not in someone else. I Had the for the first time to realize I could live my life with or without my wife. Once I got to that point, I had to make a decision to want to live that life that I could live myself, with or without her. I chose to do it with her. But the power I have now is that I'm my own person independant of her and can stand up for that person now. You are your own person and can live life with or without your H. You sound like a great person and can be that person no matter what happens, that is who you are.

If you want to try to continue to save this, try to see a good marriage counselor asap with your H if possible, if not go by yourself. And start sweeping up the pieces one piece at a time, one day at a time.

BTW Married, my Wife did the same thing when I confronted her. The second time I confronted her, she flat out lied to me. I asked her if she's had contact with him and hinted I had proof, she wouldn't admit it until I showed her the proof then she was angry. Even though her's was online, it had similar reactions and outcomes. No one likes the bad things in life to be exposed!

Thank you. Thank you all. Please help me to pray my way through this, as I'm struggling.

I stayed home today and he did give me the new number. I love him. I just do. I'm not ashamed to say that, even though I know many would have done as my WH suggested and kick him out. He's contrite today. Last night he was a warrior for injustice.

I still don't know if he's sincere. This is so hard.

He's sincere for the moment, but he's an addict who is addicted to OW. If OW is married, contact her H today, and expose this to him. This is your best weapon against this affair. You will also have another set of eyes watching your spouses. Don't EVER be afraid of a WS. The just try to use your fear to manipulate you into getting what they want. They are just bullying you. The way to beat a bully is to stand up to them. Stand up to your WH.

Good afternoon Married, I don't post often but I check in to see how you are doing every day and pray for you often. There are some very wise and experienced folks here so just hold on and you will get through this. Also, and most important, remember that God knows you and knows what you are going through and more than anything else, He will never let you down. The battle is not yours, it's the Lords! So turn your husband over to Him and pray that God give you the wisdom, patience, love and sheer nerve to get through this. He absolutely, positively will! God is an ever present help in times of trouble. He will never leave you or forsake you. He will hold you in the palm of His hands. You hide in the shadow of His wings. Read Psalms, and enjoy the peace that is provided for you in this storm. I will continue to lift you and your husband up in prayer, I will pray as well for the OW and her husband, things are probably a little hot in their kitchen too. Take good care of yourself, you are going to be FINE!

(((((Married)))))

Married,

Sorry this has happened again. First lesson from this is to "trust your instincts", they are usually right. Now to some thoughts.

First the issue of NC is that of your H's not OW's. However, exposing her to her H will help and will surely help her H.

It is not uncommon for there to be multiple D-days, it is the nature of addiction as others have already said. Still it is a pain.

And THEN, and THEN, and THEN, the fog broke out. He said
This my dear lady is known as THE FOG around here. Do you see any logic to this or at least logic you would ascribe to a normal human being? Nope, just justification. Everything would be fine IF you did not find me lying and cheating...:D Don't you just love it? This all your fault and HE is the one doing it. If this stuff wasn't so serious the complete silliness of it would make you laugh.

It seems you are a good student Married. The book is helping you. Isn't amazing how you can almost predict what they are going to say and do. Keep reading you will then hear more.

You said
Can you hear the fog horn blowing its mournful sound? I can. Hang in there Married.


Nope, sorry this is pretty normal really. Sigh!!! But, are better armed to handle it and you will do well. I am certain of that.

Time and patience Married, this will pass.

God Bless,

JL

Oh, JustLearning. I am so shaky and tearful now. Part of it is due to the most recent ordeal.

WH and I just returned from an afternoon of bonding and shopping.








He was supposed to gaslight me and lull me into a comfort zone. I blew the cover when I showed up at her apt. and left that note.



I don't understand a few things...How in the world did OW convince her BS to go along for this outrageous ride? I imagine that she showed him all of the messages from WH, who continued to contact her even after the NC letter was mailed. I just don't get it!! He drove her to my house, so she could lambast me. WH My WH played us both! He was still trying to appease and please us both! This truly is an addiction. I get it completely now.

We talked more after the police left with a few more pointed remarks directed to WH. His parting remark, so WH could hear was, "Lady, I'm sorry this happened...but maybe you and the Mr. need to go talk to somebody....if you're still thinking of keeping him." His words ring in my ears, even now.

I think this does it for THIS particular OW. I can't take this kind of low and gutteral behavior. I told WH as much. He vowed all sorts of wondrous things. He repeatedly says he's sorry, but deep down? I think he blames me for initiating the house visits. Oh. This is just so low, gutteral and unlike anything I've done in my life. I must be careful going out and about now. So will WH. I keep thinking......Am I doing this right? Do I just let this aging lothario leave my life? I know. The decision is mine...I have decided to keep him.

Finally, tonight I believe that he wants me. Especially in light of the competition. I'm speaking tongue in cheek, but you know what I mean. He wants me, because she turned on him and ran into the arms of her BS. Life is so strange. I just want to love and live through this.

My MB friends, I thank you. I continue to say this. I have revealed most of this to my family...finally. I have to confess, that this was heartbreaking for me to do. I do know that the exposure should have come sooner. I just hadn't read enough and trusted the concepts. Thank you for still encouraging me to make sound decisions. I promise you, I am not "seedy", regardless of what has just happened in the past 24 hours. Somehow, I do want you to know that.

JustLearning...I just don't want you to be disappointed in me. I know it sounds really silly...but it's how I feel.

I am so out of my element in all of this. I am embarassed beyond words....and I still think there are more awful things that will occur with this OW and BS. The WH is numb.

You did just fine. Addictions die hard, but I would be willing to bet that the HUMILIATION of this latest episode, and your calmness will make your husband realize what a crazy mistake he has made.

And do be very careful. We did have one WW who attacked the BS and put her in the hospital when the BS exposed the affair. Keep vigilant.

We also had a BS who was attacked by the OW. Her name was Filly something or just Filly, it's been a while.

This OW is nuts. She also writes in double negatives. OK, that's petty but it bugs me.

Threadjack - Yes Dobie! That is the one I meant, Filly. She was attacked and put in the hospital by the OW. She was at K-Mart, and the OW attacked her with a pool cue as she was getting out of her car. Broke her jaw, and she also had to have plastic surgery. She and her WH got back together when he realized what a nut job he'd hooked up with.

I leave for 2 days, and come back to read this. I'm so, so sorry.

I've taken some time and thought about this for a bit. Possibly contacting someone at your husband's job should be considered if there is another episode. This might be the "nuclear option". It might put his job in jeopardy, then again, someone close to him might be able to knock some sense into him before his job IS on the line.

The sexual harassment suit by a student against your husband is something to think about.

I'm currently in the law enforcement field. Start taking notes if the OW or whoever starts messing with you again. Restraining orders a.k.a. ex partes are about impossible to come by without a threat of violence, but is something to also at least think about. They are also damn near worthless in reality.(Disclaimer, I have to do this. I am not a lawyer, I can't give you legal advice. Contact an attorney who is admitted to your state bar for legal advice.)

I feel like &^it. There I was stating that I had good vibes about your situation and now its like an episode out of Jerry Springer, except this isn't staged. I'm so, so sorry.

Just know that I am thinking about you, and I want you to keep on posting, because several of us here care about you.

Good morning Married, Oh my! I've been praying like crazy for you since my last post. Know that God is there in all of this. Regarding a restraining order, I'm not a legal expert, but I've had personal experience with a violent person. If you still have the note, hang on to it! Document the day and time that she brought it by your house, you can also back it up with the date you wrote here. If you can get the emails she sends to him, those can be used to show harassment, but only if they are not in response to his. From your first contact with her forward document EVERYTHING, time, date, location etc. I would let the police know about that note when they say that you need evidence of a threat. Granted, you contacted her first but I just went back and re-read your post and you simply threatened to expose the affair, she is the one who got violent. If it is any reassurance, I sincerely doubt your husband is going anywhere, if he was he would be gone already. You are in an extremely powerful position, use it wisely and you will get everything you want from the situation. Be careful not to attack OW to your WH, it will put him in the position of having to defend her, always position it so it is YOU he defends. I'll keep an eye out for your posts today. Please stay with us, we are all here to help. God bless you abundantly today with peace, wisdom and a serene spirit.

{{Married}} Hopefully that exchange will scare your WH sober. Hard to ignore what he's really gotten himself into now, huh? You are right that he has risked alot for that tart. I hope OW and her BS go away and leave you alone now.

See a lawyer familiar with teacher/student sexual harrassment issues.

Get your documentation in order.

Write everything down as you think of it......the trauma you're experiencing will inadventertantly block important details you will need (but amazingly may have no recollection of) later.

My H and I went through a teacher/student challenge (not like yours) but he was terminated b/c of it....and we chose not to prolong the lawsuit and settled. Our union appointed atty was no help but we had no way$ to change it.

(It was when H was supposedly looking for another job that he found OW online. Be glad you're not needing that other job.)

MF30Y, so sorry for your situation, but you can survive with everyone's help.

I'll keep praying.

Ace

Mfor30

Ive been following your posts and checking in to see how you are since the beginning of your ordeal and have been thinking of you.

I am so sorry to read all of this.

There is *nothing* pathetic about what has happened to you. As JL and others have said, it is utterly normal around here. The OW in our situation attempted suicide in my driveway, as a matter of fact. Police were called, drama ensued. Stalking went on for quite some time. Still does on some level, one year after, from time to time.

I hope you can see what I see. I see a woman who is getting stronger and more empowered. What happens now is completely up to you. I believe in you!

Oh Married...

I don't know if I should be laughing or crying. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'll laugh. As I was reading your latest post I could not help but think of the immortal line from the movie Arthur. Where Guilgood (sp), the butler describes Arthur's new girl friend.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

The OW surely meets the criterion, doesn't she? You have done fine, you wanting to remain married to your H is fine. Frankly other than the prospect of a suit, is going about as well as can be expected. Exposure, you confronting her has done what it is supposed to do...show the WS the true nature of things. I get the impression, your H is seeing life just a bit differently right now isn't he? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

He should be. THis is not his finest hour, and he is about to learn a hard lesson that professors often forget, he is not a GOD. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> He is at best a man, and will really be judged by how good a husband he was, is, and will become. For everyone else he is simply...retired. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

This will be a very humbling experience for him, and a learning experience for the both of you. Hang in there, you are doing well. Keep reading the book, and keep asking questions. There is much more for you to learn. Recovery is a hard narrow road, so save your strength and love. You will need it.

God Bless,

JL

Ahopefulone, I sincerely thank you for your prayers...I am feeling so bereft. I also thank RM, justkim,believer,familycf,Ace, and of course, JustLearning.

After the alley excursion , I demanded WH turn on the computer yesterday, to check on that secret email account. Well, lo and behold, a message from OW.

I was able to get through the day, and then suddenly, the mess I'm involved in would just HIT me. I managed to work and come home, to STILL ANOTHER email.

Now, I just read the email and I'm shaking with fury. There is no way this woman should know anything about me...My own WH gave her info, that she is now attempting to use. I ask you, what kind of woman DOES this? This seems like some sort of sick GAME to her. I am sick to my stomach, to know that the A wasn't enough. Now, I feel as though my WH has betrayed me.

The email entries hurt almost as much as the A. This young woman is immature, although she certainly doesn't LOOK like any 28 year old that I know!! I also think, she must be used to this type of chaos!! She sounds gleeful and venomous.

She is also very, very shrewd. Her mail indicates that I threatened her...This must be in reference to the letter, when I indicated I would contact her BS. Or, it may be in reference to our very first phone conversation, when SHE came out swinging, when I told her then, I would contact her husband.

She has artfully arranged her mail to read as though I sought to attack her...This is so untrue and not my character. My God...this must be the way this OW lives. If you feel wronged, then jump in the gutter and go for it!

My instincts told me to have WH change our bank accounts and close them. He did this. To think that all I wanted was my marriage and suddenly it appears, I have him now by DEFAULT.

WH does not know about this latest mail. I just want to crawl into a deep, dark cave, think this through and go on with my life. I really have led a very normal, calm and pretty dull life. I was loved by my family, respected by my co-workers and students. No one will understand any of this. Another very sad BETRAYAL? WH admitted to me, that HE was the one who told OW things that I had said. You are all so right...Who was it that said, WH will try to convince OW that YOU are crazy?

I think this is exactly what has happened here. I feel so darn betrayed. Did I say that already? I hate sitting here, waiting for him to return from his meeting. He led this woman to think I was like she apparently is....NUTS!

I revealed most to my family, but not the craziness of the e mail. It's just too sordid. As it is, they already think I'm crazy for not pressing for a separation...They have loved WH like a brother for 30 years.

JustLearning, and the rest of MB posters, thank you for hearing me. Thank you for believing I can do this..Today, WH is not looking like a prize to me. Of course, I will continue my Plan A, but it will definitely be a SHORT plan tonight, because when I look at him, he will see the disappointment in my eyes.

This is normal around here? How in the world do people come through this fire? This pain? This interuption of their lives? I look and speak calmly to WH. I am as angry as HE**, that he appears so mentally fragile now. The least litttle angry or snide remark from me, sends him almost into tears.

This is NOT the man I married. The man I married was strong. He was accomplished (No, JL, he certainly isn't God and he now knows it for certain!) The man I knew until D day was a man you could count on. This is why I know, the book is so correct... He became addicted. He is not resembling any characteristics of the man I knew.

I appreciate your prayers. I feel so very alone in addition to the one emotion I have not wanted to give voice to...I am frightened.

Married,

Keep the email, and consider, I said consider showing it to the authorities, especially if anything strange takes place. I would also consider seeing a lawyer and having the lawyer do any communications that needs to take place from now on.

This stuff is tough, and no your H doesn't look like the man you loved over the years. He can come back but it is going to take awhile. Further, he is going to have to face his betrayal of you by telling the OW this personal information.

You might show him the email and ask him HOW he is going to protect you, and how he is going to bring this to a close. Dump it in his lap.

Recovery is tough and it will take on order years. So hang in there. You are doing better than you realize, but take heart. The OW is showing you her "stature" as it were, and isn't very high is it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Keep reading the book, and then there are a few others out there that are also good to read.

God Bless,

JL

So sorry that the OW is acting like she is. Sounds kind of like my ex's OW. She wasn't happy just having my husband. She took special pleasure in demeaning me, throwing the affair in my face, etc. It is not pleasant. Just realize that she has some problems. Her actions are a reflection of HER, not you.

It would be interesting to know what she has been telling her husband about all of this. She may not have even told him about the affair, and thus her aggression towards you. I would be careful.

You are going through the normal feelings. Don't be surprised if you start wondering if you even want your husband when this is over.

That is what did my marriage in - I lost all respect for my husband. But it sounds like your husband is going to be one of the ones who "gets" it.

Married,

Although my H got emotionally (and virtual sexually) involved with a woman across the country who he never met because they got caught first, his affair tainted all his many other good qualities in my eyes until he 'got it' and the fog dissipated, slowly but surely.

I registered on MB to try to help rebuild my trust. Only 4 months later, we are well on our way to recovery...and I am trusting him more and more each day.

It can happen...just keep posting and keep a journal and notebook of all your evidence. It may seem disgusting and you may want to burn it, but since you might be facing legal issues, you'll need hard evidence.

As far as knowing how to cope with the depths of the violation in the midst of 'life goes on' commitments...just take one moment at a time. Breath by breath, step by step, you'll eventually be able to focus. It's taken time, but it is possible and will be worth the effort.

I am praying for you.

Ace

Thank you so much believer. You are so right. This betrayal of information is just about to suffocate me. That is the most excellent word for how I feel...I don't know why I couldn't articulate that before now. That is it exactly..I am suffocating.

Why are some of these OW so venomous? Isn't it enough to destroy my life? You are right about another thing...I feel as if she is flaunting their A in my face. It is demoralizing and demeaning at the most basic level.

JustLearning, I am just discussing seeking a lawyer with WH, while he reads SA. He is reading it very, very carefully and has pulled out his highlighter. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I wanted to laugh, but my face already hurts.

I told WH my feelings regarding his betrayal in the most calm manner. He still can't quite come to grips with what he has done to me. me He is now just starting to say, thank you for "pulling me out and bringing me back." Too little...too late. I don't want thanks, I just want him to be the man that he was.

JustLearning, remember my post about a hundred years ago? When I said, I felt like I had caught my middle aged child? You reprimanded me and stated very clearly, that this wasn't my child..but my husband.

Well, I am inwardly feeling like Big Moma again. He doesn't seem to be able to grasp these new developments. His contention? Well, I just won't answer her and she may send a few more messages and then it will stop. He is clueless....Doesn't he know how these messages knife me to my very core?

I handed him the book and said, "Here." "Read this." "What you are experiencing is not so special after all." "You, honey, are a textbook case."

I want this man and this marriage. He only said one thing while reading. I told him that this latest Bonnie and Clyde episode with the OW and BS, is just unbelievable. My question to him was this: You showed her love, attention and exchanged intimacies, why ? What has happened that she would want to hurt you like this? She was willing to see her BS beat you to a pulp, had you gotten out of the car.

He responded..."Maybe she knows that since she's told her H, and she knows we're through...Maybe she now wants to destroy our marriage." "She has told me that she can get any man she wants."

My God...shouldn't THAT have sent a flaming red flag for the professor?

I will be heading back to the bookstore in the morning. I still need to be forewarned and forearmed. This narrow road to recovery will be a steep one, indeed. One of us, either WS or I, will need drugs to get through this.

I'm hanging on. I am praying. I am still so hurt, betrayed and alone. My face hurts.

Thank you, Ace. I think this is hard enough and then a legality arises. This is just so, so hard. The most difficult thing that I have ever encountered, except death of loved ones.

I am happy for you, to know you are in recovery. That sounds like such a warm and good place to be...How I wish this was already next year or something in the distance, far awa;y from this present reality.

I still cry, but I haven't broken down. I cry in private. I cry as I sit here and perform my therapeutic typing.

Again, believer, JustLearning..Thank you. I thank everyone here. This is just so darn hard.

Married,

I get goose bumps when I read what your H appears to be doing.....he sounds like my H after D-Day #3. Of course, D-Day #4 was when he finally began to emerge from withdrawal.

Prepare yourself for the rollercoaster. If you want to scream, scream. It sounds like your H might take it like mine did. I even cussed, even dropped the F-bomb a few times in the ensuing days after D-Day #3 (never said much more than "dang" before and I stopped cussing about a week after D-Day 3 when H seemed genuinely remorseful).

But right after the 2nd and 3rd D-Days, I just let 'er rip....just pretended I was Jesus in the temple, driving out the bad guys (OW demons). I doubt if he dropped the F-bomb, but that's why He's perfect and we're not.

Married, when things seem utterly hopeless, start a little list of the things you are grateful for in your life. It may be hard to think of things at first, but as you get the ball rolling, you'll find out there are many things in the shadows of this violation that YOU can choose to bring to the forefront of your life. Journal them and meditate on them.

I'm still praying for you....we all are.

Ace

PS Writing is therapeutic actually.....of course it would have been easier if I had found these MB forums as soon as we started reading HNHN in the fall....took a few months for that.

Married,




I cried in private after D-Day #1. After D-Day #2 I held back but cried in front of him a little. After D-Day #3, I let her rip....screamed, cried, cussed, and revealed my pain, including nearly committing suicide by slamming my car into a bridge abutment. When I told him, that's what helped him finally start to 'get it'.

Even though D-Day #4 happened, it occurred just before we were supposed to leave on a 10 day vacation, which I almost cancelled in order to get the house ready to sell so I could start over (at 53) with the equity. I calmly agreed with him when he said he should go away and picked up his piddly little gym bag with a change of clothes (and his Bible) to leave in the wee morning hours. That's when the fog began to lift, Nov. 10, 2006. He turned at the door and begged me for another chance, a 5th strike....and I gave it to him....again.

Don't hide your pain, Married. Let it out if you need to. It will speed up the healing process and hopefully save you from having more D-Days.

Ace

oh, Ace,
I don't have the strength for that many darn D Days..I guess I shouldn't say that...I'm in uncharted waters these days!

You are remarkable...Truly! This is the thing....I just can't fathom people wanting to live this way.

You made me smile for only about the second time today. I envision your WH's "piddly" overnight bag. How? Just tell me how you were able to go through and make it to the other side, without the benefit of MB???

I feel like I need a straight jacket, except I'm mad enough to bite through the restraints.

I appreciate you. Someone who has made it work, just as many here have. Right now, that just seems so remarkable to me. I can't wrap my brain around it just yet.

I keep making what the book terms, __________judgements. I can't remember the exact deleted word, but I recognized myself immediately. Now if WH had only done this....Now if you had only said that...This is the way my conversations with him go, until I hear myself. I keep thinking, if I don't tell him to eat, sleep or breathe, he won't do it. I'm afraid the poor man is having some sort of delayed mental incapacity.

I guess this is normal too? Of course, as has been said repeatedly, he must figure this mess out for himself. I can't help him with his own anguish, except to make sure all conversations don't end with me using my arsenal of choice...my mouth. As a rule, Ace, I don't curse. My weapon of choice is my ability to talk the man to death.

Do you want to see a grown man cover his ears? I swear, I had never seen this done before in my life. It would have been comical, except by then, I knew he was holding his head to keep the lid on it.

Now, I'm being mean again...See what I mean? I am not usually like this at all. I've complained about how much HE has changed and now look at me.

I will do as you suggest...I will begin to keep a journal of the positives. I need to keep those in the forefront of my core. It's an excellent suggestion. I thank you...sincerely.

Married

It is all so bewildering, isnt it? It doesnt seem possible to experience this intense pain, such a roller coaster of emotions and have people tell you that it is utterly normal.
It seems anything BUT normal.

But, it is. Everything you are feeling is completely normal and no, you are NOT going crazy.

I remember not long after D-Day for us feeling like my heart had been rendered apart. I felt like I was going crazy. I could see no way that I could possibly get through this, never mind recover my marriage. Yet, Im still here. Still fighting and learning. I have discovered reserves of strength I never knew I possessed. I have been destroyed and rebuilt 100 times over.

I dont know where we will end up. Some days, I want to stay in this marriage more than ever. Other days, I forsee no way I can stay with a man who destroyed my life, my world and my belief. Like so many other people here, I roll with it and know that however I feel, whatever the day brings.. it is normal

My prayers to you.
JK

Hi Married,


Fantasies have no logical explanation. Even most WSs would not choose to live this way if it weren't for the fantasy fog of their addictions.



Regarding that night, we were packing for our vacation. When I showed him the evidence of his lies, he said he would go and I surprised him by agreeing. I LET HIM GO. I honestly decided then and there to cancel the vacation, get the house ready to sell and start over.

He looked pathetic as he slowly picked up his partially packed gym bag and started to go. I was surprised when he turned at the door.

He begged me to go on the vacation and give him one last chance to prove cold turkey (with no computer access and us together 24/7 for 10 days) that he could change.

I agreed for only one reason. I had already told an elderly family member I would visit for what might be the last time b/c she lives across the country. I had waited until that morning to call and couldn't bear the thought of cancelling that visit.

I'll link the details later if I can find them, but H proved to me he was sincere about changing. Strike 5 wielded a pretty hefty bat.



To be honest, Married, our sitch is much different from yours. My H and yours are teachers (as was/is the OW). But yours was physical, ours was only emotional.

Also, OW lives across the country, not nearby.

It's not much consolation, I know, but the emotional rollercoaster is much the same. Mine just does not include a PA, OW or lawsuit. The betrayal, violation and lies are what make recovery so difficult because they have obliterated trust. Multiple violations and repeated lies (when I thought I was building trust) are complicated by triggers....painful reminders that return to haunt you.

If H had not showed the signs of changing during our Nov. 06 vacation, we would NOT have made it. We'd be separated and on the road to a divorce.

MARRIED, I can only post on the weekends, not during weekdays so I am glad you inspired me to link all 7 chapters of our story. Have you seen them? (MR ROMANCE in the Romantic Experiences section of the IDEAS forum.) I will write more after I get the links done. (I enjoy your writing style in spite of your anguish and I'm glad I could make you smile.)

I'm tempted to comment on your "yapping H to death" but will wait for another post!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Hang in there and keep reading on this web site. Get the book on Lovebusters, too. If you haven't found it yet, the term is DJ, Disrespectful Judgements....I've done it for 50+ years! (We're both passive/aggressive....led to our 32 years detachment.)

More later. Still praying for you.

Ace

Married...one more thing,

Look for info on triggers....imprinted reminders of what your H did during the A.

Be careful what you ask. Write things down and wait before asking until you decide whether or not you really want to know.

I did not know this. If I had, I would have quit asking because every answer MIGHT create a new trigger that slows recovery.

For example, I asked how extensive their sexual fone-fornication was. Now I wish I didn't know they mutually fantacized about certain sexual acts. Over time I'm forgetting these images, but the vivid mind pictures made it very difficult for me in the beginning.

TAME YOUR TONGUE...it may come back to bite you.

Ace

P.S. If you haven't read it yet, please check out Longhorn's plan (top of Just Found Out forums) for a solid marriage plan you can develop. Longhorn's Plan

Edited to add: Got the MR. ROMANCE links done so you can read some of our sordid story in one thread.

It's completely not clear what the story to her husband was. I doubt very seriously that when threatened with exposure, she chose to confess to a consensual affair.

((Married))

You are going through the most horrific experience anyone can imagine. I know. I had a mastectomy 6 weeks after my XWH left us due to his affair. Even chemotherapy was a walk in the park compared to being betrayed.

It truly is a roller coaster ride, like so many on MB describe it. You will get through this. MB saved my sanity.
I had a place to go where there were others who understood what I was going through. They let me know that I wasn't crazy.Even now, as I deal with fall out of my XH's choices, I am still buoyed by the information on this site.

I don't have any wisdom for you except to take care of yourself. Read the information on this site. Keep posting. Most of all, take care of yourself.

In His Grip-

Married,

Will be out of the country next week. Just wanted to leave you a note to hang in there you can get through this.

God Bless,

JL

Just letting you know that I'm still here, and thinking about you. Take care. Hang in there. Keep venting. There has been some good advice the last few days.

MB friends,
I am still here...I must confess, that I have taken a few days to reflect, contemplate my next actions and to read. My life has been fairly uneventful, when I compare it to the Jerry Springer atmosphere of my previous posts.Johnstwin, I do thank you...I am trying very hard to take care of myself during these days.

JustLearning, I do hope you have a great time. It meant quite a lot to me to know you checked in to let me know you would be away. It was so thoughtful and I appreciate it greatly....I would have been so worried if you and Reprobatemind just dropped off the face of the earth, before I reagained my full sanity.

I felt WH had a very sincere breakthrough two days ago. For the first time since D Day, I felt he was being honest, open and sincere. He has expressed a willingness to rebuild this R, although he still doesn't quite know what to do. He just thinks he will shower me with various kindnesses.

I suppose this is rather a Plan A for the waywards. Even though he is doing all that he knows to do, the thoughts of this horrific intrusion still enter my mind. The A was bad enough, but his betrayal of me was the absolute worst. I have had one huge breakdown and I think the worst is over for a while. I have read and I understand that waywards lie and violate the NC, but I still just can't believe my WH did this. Even to my own ears, this sounds naive and arrogant.

WH told his uncle and sister of his A and they were not shocked or awed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> They both told my WH that I would "get over it." Can you believe that? Neither of them has been able to sustain a marriage and I guess I see why! We truly loved each other...we still do. How anyone can think that this type of pain should be gotten over, is beyond me. It has changed the person that I am. My tolerance for crap is at an all time low.

Ace, I have begun to read your story of Mr. Romance and I'm looking forward to finishing. I also appreciate hearing from those of you who have been in the trenches and dug your way out. I pray to be as successful. I am cancelling all plans for this week-end and WH and I are going for a week-end junket to reconnect. I am looking forward to it and on the other hand I am not.

I have a few questions that my reading does not adequately address for my needs:

1. Am I missing the point of this unconditional love and giving during Plan A? This is the man that has broken my heart, lied to me up one side of this relationship and down the other. I ask you all, why does HE get to feel so good, when I am the wronged party?

I know the reason given...but it is still a bitter pill to swallow.

2. When do I stop checking the email, phone records, etc.? Every time I check, it acts as a trigger for my anger. I enter the computer room calm enough, but I emerge like a simmering feret. It has gotten to the point that I think I am becoming obsessed with checking and looking for evidence of more lies.

We have changed the cell phone number, but not the email addy, in case we need evidence for police. This young OW is a nutcase and WH and I thought we should save any and all mail from this point on.

3. How will I know that I'm in recovery? It is starting to feel slightly better around here, but a few things will still act as triggers. I still have not put my rings back on and WH hasn't requested that I do so. I am more than a little ticked off about that one too!

4, WH had a variety of ways to contact the OW; email, text message, cell phone, instant message, and of course daily class. He demonstrated through breaking the NC, his tears and screams that he was soooo deep in the fog. He still contends that this was done only as a sexual R. Just tell me Reprobatemind, is that POSSIBLE??????????? Don't you have to at least THINK you're in love to have so many points of contact? I mean, we were being loving and intimate with a full blown Plan A!!!!!!!! Can he just be saying it was "only sex", because he thinks I will be more hurt by the truth ?

When he was still calling and texting that little tart (You MB folks have really good names for the OW), he tried to get me to put the rings on....but since he has become attentive, not one more word has been said about me wearing my rings.

I begin IC on Wed. I will be seeing the same counselor WH has been seeing....I am not going to continue if the guy is not competent. As I have said before, my tolerance is very low these days. I wish none of this had ever happened to me. I don't feel that I will ever be the same. Maybe that is the ticket...I shouldn't WANT to be the same and honestly I don't want to ignore my WH's EN's. I just know that my family will never feel the same about my WH or us as a couple. I know you guys have said that it can be better than it was before, but I just don't see how that can be.

That my friends makes me very, very sad indeed.

Sorry. You have to watch him and verify that he is being truthful until he proves he can be trusted. Also the BS has to do the heavy work of recovery at first. Not fair - but it is the way it is.

Your sense of specialness and innocense is gone forever. Kiss it goodbye. It will take at least 2 years to recover from this. You will NEVER be the same.

With that said, you CAN go on to have a much better marriage than before. Once you've overcome this together, you can have a better marriage than you ever dreamed of. You will know that you've been tested with the worse thing that can happen and made it through.

Married,
I am so glad to see your latest post!! I was worried about you!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> I have been reading and checking on your situation from day one and you are such a special person!! I am so sorry you are having to go through this and it breaks my heart to see you in so much pain. I am very new to MB and it makes my faith in people so much stronger to know that perfect strangers who have been through this same situation has shown you (and so many other hurting hearts) such helpful and caring words. Its hard for me to understand how someone we love so much can hurt us so bad. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> You are such a strong person and this situation will only make you that much stronger. Please know that you and your WH are in my thoughts and prayers every day.

dhd <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Married,

I posted to your other thread [click here] and I am praying for you, too.

What did you find out?

Ace

PS Have you retired yet? If it makes you feel any better, my H and I are of retirement age, but due to his history of lying which partially led to our financial devastation, we will not be able to retire for at least 20 more years.

I've been out of pocket with school for the last few days, and now I'm caught up again. Let me read once more and see if I can't figure something out. I'm REALLY sorry that you asked me a direct question and I wasn't around to answer. Be back in a sec...

You are going to reconnect this weekend. Good plan. I'm probably a little late to give advice for the weekend, but don't be pushy, as in, don't force yourself or him to have a good weekend. Know what I mean?

A little late for me to give you tech advice, per your message on the other forum about the OW email. Did you get that solved? I take it as good news that the email mentions something to the effect of "Why haven't you answered?"

As far as anger triggers, recovery time periods, feeling addicted to checking up on him...This is gonna take some time. All of this shi! has happened in just a couple of weeks. The anger will subside, but it will be awhile. Months. Maybe of couple of years. It will always be in the back of your mind. The checking up on him constantly is probably a good thing at the moment. His recent history for no contact doesn't seem to be spotless, so he will have to put up with it.

You will know that you are in recovery when you don't feel this situation hanging over your head every hour of every day. When a day or two passes when suddenly you realize, "Hey, I haven't thought about him screwing around on me since the day before yesterday.", then you know you are close to recovery.

Let me tell you something about men that is ugly. I believe in evolution. In fact, I'm a Richard Dawkins fan from way back. Anyways, men and that little thing between their legs get in trouble. They chase around from time to time, and are naturally that way. Think of little puppies that will hump anything. Thats the way some men can be. Now that puppy isn't in love with that plush toy anymore than your hubby might be in love with the student. All that puppy knows is that when he humps that toy, it feels good.

Of course, humans are much more complex than puppies, but you get the idea. Men are simple creatures. (Takes one to know one). We respond to goo-goo eyes like moths are to a flame. Take some naturally horny man that is a little deprived in that area, thrown in some middle-aged "I wonder if I still have it" attitude, and some young thing who gives him the time of day, mix, stir, introduce to heat, and you have ignition.

Now, not all men screw around. We may want to, but not all do. We like to look. ALL men do. "Not my husband," some woman reading this is thinking, "he respects me." Yes, ma'am, your husband, too. Fighting that is fighting hundreds of thousands of years of evolution. Its when we go beyond looking to touching that the trouble begins.

Think of the pornography industry. Us men like to look at pretty naked women. We are SUPPOSED to like to look at them. Its hard-wired into us. We don't fall in love with Ms. January anymore than your puppy is in love with that plush toy. We are in LOVE with you, the wife. 30 minutes after ogling Ms. January, the man won't even remember her name, or maybe even her eye color. What we remember is that she was pleasant to look at.

What I am leading to is this. Some men, not all, but a great many, well, they can separate love and sex. Its sad, but true. Your husband may really be telling you the truth when he says that he isn't in love with the other woman, that it was just sex. I bet he's right. She stroked his ego, and she also looked like a comfy place to hole up for a while. Thats all. Good men don't fall for the goo-goo eyes and the ego stroking, and can resist. Some good men have told me that they do NOT screw around, don't want to. They have said that no matter what, they won't be allow themselves to be put into that situation where they even get the chance. This is man-code for "Jeez, that would be nice. I really want to, sort of, but I got a wife and kids, love them dearly, and don't want to screw that up."

To sum it up, men can separate love and sex. Notice I said we CAN. That does NOT mean that we always do. For many men, if not the majority, the best sex comes with a loving relationship. We actually prefer to have good sex with the wife that we are in love with, and that loves us back. However, some men, for whatever reason, are not having sex with the loving wife. So, they will seek unloving sex to whatever bimbo strokes their ego and bats the goo-goo eyes at them.

I liked the late Anna Nicole Smith. I liked the way she looked. I liked the natural bimbo act. I liked her body. If this were a fantasy world, and I didn't have a wife, would I want to try her out for a bit? Sure! Now do I want to marry her, have her take care of me when I'm sick? Will I want to smell her morning breath, put up with her stealing my underwear during her period, hold her hair back when she is sick and on all fours puking in the toilet? Do I want her to raise my children? Share finances? Impress my bosses and co-workers when they come over? Do I want to tell her my deepest hopes and fears? Make a promise to take care of each other in our old age? ****** NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do you see now?

Your husband probably really doesn't love that other woman. He just liked the fact that the old man "still had it" and it made him feel studly. Combine that with not getting the lovin' he wanted at home, and there you have it. What men are SUPPOSED to do is work out those issues. Some men, unfortunately, screw around, destroying those who love them. And then when they get caught, they regret it.
A hard *&^! has no conscience. Most of the time, anyways.

Hang in there. I'm still pulling for you.

Hi Married,

I'm praying that your time over the weekend w/WH is being productive. Looking forward to your update, as many others are, too.

RM, thanks for your long description from the man's perspective.

Our MC elaborates on the same theme.....saying that not only are men hard-wired to want/need/have the physical act of copulation nearly 24/7, but they usually are naturally indiscriminate regarding with whom to fulfill that innate need.....like rabbits. (Most likely there's a limit with regards to your pug, though. LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />)

MC says that women, on the other hand, are hard-wired to be committed and faithful monogamously (obviously there are exceptions) but that women usully are like the animal/fowl that mates for life w/only one partner. In fact a poster who went on her 25th Anniversary celebration (complete with vow renewal), changed her name to Mates4Life because of this creature about the same time you registered on MB. (She referenced the species when she announced her name change but I'm not taking the time to look it up now. If you know, please enlighten me.)

Re: Married's sitch.....I think your post might help her glean an understanding of her H's bewilderment, hopefully expediting his fog-lifting. I am amused by her descriptions of her weapon of choice.....talking him to death while he curls in the fetal position, both hands over his ears with an agonizing grimace on his face while she badgers him into oblivion! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

At any rate, I appreciate your time to think and type your lengthy post to Married. I read your thread and some of your posts and it appears you have not yet experienced infidelity, but saw warning signs in your detachment and sought help. I applaud you. Wish I had done the same.

Such it is with hindsight, huh....

Marriedfor30....hindsight is useful for overcoming challenges that can be helpful in the future to avert infidelity or to help those involved heal from it. Let's take this (infidelity) bull by the horns and wrestle it to the ground (overcome WS withdrawal), come out victorious (recovery complete), shake the dust off our hands and go on.

Again, looking forward to your update, MF30. Regardless of what happened, we're all here for you.

Ace

P.S. I enjoy your sense of humor, RM. And Married, in spite of the usual "sorry you're here/glad you're here" MB greeting, your writing style and frankness is greatly appreciated. And JL, are you back in the country yet?

Yo, Ace, thanks. I was afraid that some visitors to the forum would think I was a little salty, but MF30 is a big girl, she can handle it.

Ditto for your marriage counselor's advice. Sounds like we are on the same page.

No, there have been no infidelity issues in our present marriage. I hope it stays that way.

MC30, keep us updated on the weekend and how it went.

Dear MB Friends, Lifesavers and Internet Angels,

I am still here. That is a very powerful statement for me. Yes, I am still here!

I say this in the smallest of whispers when I awake. I shout it in my car when I am alone and I even say it with triumph on some days. Our weekend getaway is over and I left it with regret. The very thought of returning to my very simple life was daunting, to say the least.

The beginning of the trip found me hurling LB's out of the car window into the air over the highway. My dear, practical and CHEAP WH looked at me benignly and said, "You know, I really don't need that other phone." "I have to pay as I go, and it's really too expensive." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Can you believe the audacity of this man? He was willing to lie about this phone, break the NC immediately and relate the cell number to OW. He!!, I didn't even KNOW he had another phone. Now that I have the number and SHE doesn't, It's TOO EXPENSIVE???!!!!!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Ok....I calmed down after silencing the "head monsters"....We arrived and were rewarded with a very nice suite. I was needy. I failed to mention that the trip was my idea and he really wasn't gung-ho. I honestly don't think it was totally due to the OW, but his need to "Be careful with the money, until we can see how this retirement cash flow evens out." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I sat in the suite thinking to myself...."This man spent money....$100 of OUR hard earned money, on earrings for his bimbo....a cell phone bill for OW....countless lunches and dinners for OW....and now he wants to be an alarmist AND a tightwad?" I wasn't having it and I told him so. I was not kind. I did not mince words.

I told him that as the mother of his children who shared Mother's Day wishes that he made to both me and OW...I deserved a weekend of his attention. He sighed and agreed. I went back into Plan A mode immediately, but I was ashamed of myself. This entire trip, I'm afraid, was not a JA.

Each night was special, complete with front row seats to a play, lobster dinner, steak dinner, flaming dessert and a waiter that just lived to please me! I can't say that I don't remember being treated this way in the past. WH and I always enjoyed this type of evening for anniversaries, but this was different in a very special way:

I was able to be loving, giving and fulfilled what I believe is his #1 EN. . It. Was.....New. It was both scary and new for me. If you had told me that this would have been possible two months ago, I would have deemed you a liar! This very basic level of EN has not been entered into since the honeymoon. Who knew? I just couldn't imagine....It has been once for Christmas, once for each of our birthdays, once for any "really happy time"....I think that brings the total to four.....A YEAR!! Maybe I'm missing a couple, but not many! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

When I tell you that I thought my/his life was completely fulfilled, I am NOT kidding or exaggerating. It was MY routine....I made it HIS routine. He was more than thrilled with the new turn of events, to say the least. I am a very upbeat and energetic person during my waking hours. WH is a quiet, weekend jock. I am a nestbuilder...I am a nurturer...I was happy when I thought HE was happy....How? How did I get these signals so darn screwed up???

The worst? I had our lives screwed up like this for approx. 30 years....JustLearning is right....He could really have asked for a divorce. I just NEVER, ever knew, my dear MB People.

My sadness enveloped me when our conversation returned to mundane events...We had to return home...the scene of the crime. I have told WH that I no longer want to live here. It feels as if the mailbox, front door and garage entrance should be sprayed down with holy water. I am praying that I get over this creepy feeling that OW knows where I live!

We have scheduled this evening to take the EN survey. My WH, the professor, likes questionnaires. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I will share the findings with the MC when I arrive for Wednesday's session...my first one.

In regard to the offline message...The sneaky little thing had it rigged, so that by the time I got back to save/move it, it had disappeared. She thought WH was still on board, but she wasn't entirely sure. Her second message? A winking face! I couldn't stand it!!!!!!!! So, WH and I just got rid of the entire mail program....So now, I guess she'll be sending snail mail.

I still hate her...I know....But right now, I don't seem to be able to recall my benevolent/forgiving nature. To think....She is the same age as one of my children! I'd love to be able to meet HER mother!

Ace, believer, dhd and my other MB friends, thank you...thank you so much for your prayers and believing that I can do this. (How in the world do I check back to thank everyone, when my message will disappear when I do?)

Reprobatemind...Your analogies are excellent! You get an A for descriptive analogies! I think you made it sooooo much clearer for me. I sure wish I had read your post and the others regarding triggers WHILE I was away!! RM, I can't help it.....You are SUCH a remarkably SMART young man for your 30 years....You are the type of student that I love.

I love the witty spunky ones! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I'm a nurturer too....Your mom, wherever she may be, must be so very proud of you. I thank you for helping to teach this old ______ (insert whatever you want, I can't say dog) new tricks and ways of looking at things.

JustLearning, wherever you are, please be safe. I do feel so very lucky and even blessed, that you heard my anguished cries almost thirty days ago. I know, I just know I would not be in this marriage, if it had not been for you and the initial responders. May God bless you abundantly.

Welcome back, Married,

You sound euphoric....hope your EN questionnaires experience is going well.

Be thankful for those and the other resources on MB. My H and I had none.....waited to go see MC who only suggested we read "Not 'Just Friends'" by Dr. Shirley Glass.

My H and I had SF nearly every day and night (too) after D-Day #1 b/c I took the week off from work to discuss what happened.

We saw the MC a week later and by the next day, H tried to set up another secret email account to that OW. He lied to MC, too.

Married....withdrawal is a bummer. I don't want to scare you but please do NOT let your guard down. Well, maybe I do want to scare you. (I wish someone had scared me.) I thought all was well, I forgave him, I basked in all the attention he was giving me, and he was thinking about her all that time. And the next time......and the next and final time. Yep, 4 strikes and the 5th will be the last. Fortunately, he knows it and he wants me to check up on him to keep him accountable.....says he has nothing to hide.

It's been 6 months so time will tell. It does get better and the triggers do diminish.....as long as you keep getting support on these boards.

Again, so glad to hear you've started down the road to recovery, but withdrawal could take a few weeks. Be on guard and keep avoiding the LBs and you'll do fine.

Keep us posted.

Ace

Oooh....remember in that post where I said that men are basically dumb cavemen, and we are suckers for women who stroke our egos? It works! Thanks!! Seriously, I'm really glad to have helped. Knowing that I have in some small way really made my day. Honest.

Mom IS proud of me. I chalk it up to my "mad writin' skillz" (patent pending), which are devastating when welded by those are are properly trained in the ways of the force. I think the FDA is in the process of regulating them in regards to marriage issues. Please remit payment to PO Box....

Serious again for a second...4 times a year? Wow. I'm glad that will change. Wow. Well, now he doesn't have that excuse.

Listen to Ace. Don't let your guard down. It WILL get bad again, for whatever reason. That is, you will feel like giving up again on the whole shebang, get really mad, fill in the blank. It WILL happen. When it does, you now know what it is, and now you know that the bad feeling will go away. Come on this board and vent. Go to your husband, and be loving and honest. Those bad feelings WILL go away, too. Eventually, it will get better with time.

I will leave you this note and a history lesson. Flash back to the 1980's, where the great, handsome, wise, knowledgeable and powerful Ronald Wilson Reagan was entering into a nuclear disarmament treaty with Mikhail Gorbachev. They were wanting to scrap some of the nuke missiles that were sitting in the silos, peace and love and all that jazz. Grandpa Ronnie went on national TV with Gorbie, and with everyone present stated that both countries should send inspection teams to the other sides' silos to make sure the nukes where actually in the process of becoming razor blades or whatever. (I bet the razors glowed in the dark, hehe). Anyways, Ronnie then flashed his famous smile and said,...............

"Trust, but verify."

End of sermon.

Married,

Back from the trip. I am glad things are progressing. I suspect that the smile on his face has to do with the number 4 don't you? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> May it be banished from your household. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

You are doing well, and it will get better as your H "gets it" and as you "get it". You both will. It is a painful journey, but it may turn out to be a healthy one for you.

Must go.

God Bless,

JL

Sooooo glad to hear from you Married!!!

It sounds like your weekend went well (except for the yelling out the window part) I will never understand why men are so thickheaded!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> When my H is in his neanderthal state I'll ask him "Exactly what color is the sky in your world??" They can be so smart and such an impressive species and then turn around and revert back to the knuckle draggin hairy sub-humans that we want to strangle!!
No offense RM, JL, etc., ect. I am sure your knuckles do not drag the ground....very often..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

4 times.....bless his bone(s)(pun intended <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />). This area will help you both with EN. I was a little stingy in that department too and since my H 'almost' EA in 05' that area has improved so much. I have come full circle and he now tells me he is to tired sometimes!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I dont really have words of wisdom to tell you because I havent been in your shoes but from the things I have read on these forums it is a long road. There is a light at the end of the tunnel though and you are such a strong and kind person with a WANT to save your marriage. That to me seems like a tremendous start. Please know we are here for you and will pick you up when you are down and help you in any way we can.

dhd <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

What did you say? I was busy putting neosporin on my fingers. They are awful scabby as of late...

Only call em like I see em. I just read your post on the woman scorn by porn (ha! I made a ryme) and she was mean to you. I guess it was all that neanderthal hair in your eyes.

he-he,
dhd

Hi to all, and especially my favorite, hairy, neosporin prone friends...

The above posts gave me much needed comic relief, as today was an absolutely disappointing day from ******....

WH and I took the EN questionnaire together and my guy just doesn't live in the same universe that I inhabit. His sexual needs are #3 and mine are #10!!!!

I think the questionnaire was skewed toward my desire to divide my emotions before D Day and after D Day. Does that make sense?? I had to keep saying, "Are we indicating what we feel NOW.....or should we indicate the revised needs?"

Why is this so relevant? I must have this cleared up for me, because I truly thought OW fulfilled more needs, such as the one for admiration. Well, wouldn't that also go along with the scenario? WH has family committment in the top 5, as well as financial-something-or-other. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Obviously, OW couldn't fulfill either of those! So, I thought WH selected "safe" needs, thereby throwing the accuracy of the questionnaire to the wind. Was I guilty of throwing in a few of my "newer EN's as well? Um....Yes.

My number one need was for honesty. Would I have said that 30 days ago? I don't know, but it really has been a trait that I have always deemed important. In retrospect, WH and I must take this questionnaire into account during our conversation tomorrow. Tonight, we discussed my IC and it was not very pretty. I sat in that counselor's office and cried and talked and cried and talked and ....You get the picture.

The poor counselor guy sat there in his natty green socks and sandals, looking concerned and nodded, as my session went 15 min. overtime. I apologized, because I knew that he was probably saying, "The poor shmuck that I met for the past two weeks can't keep up with the dialogue and MEMORY of this nutty lady." He asked me two direct questions:

1. What do you want to happen with your marriage?
2. Do you wish to continue with your sessions?

I never answered either question fully. I am usually very clear in my answers to direct questions, but not today. He said, "Well, Mrs. Marriedfor30yrs., your husband has expressed a desire to continue in his marriage." I sat there and looked him straight in the eyes and responded:

"Forgive me doctor, but wouldn't YOU wish to continue in this marriage too? After all, his home is comfortable and tastefully decorated, his children are adults, his car is brand new, his wife is attractive and has started to put out like a prom queen and he has the sweet affection and sexual tension from a 28 year old. Doctor.....what is there NOT to like, if I may ask?"

I may be wrong, but I have watched pen gestures from across the room for over 30 years.I have a teacher's ability to also read upside down.....He wrote one word: HOSTILE <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I left without making another appointment. He offered only one parcel of advice during the entire 75 minutes:


So, there you have most of it. There is more, but I've cried and cried today, like I just discovered this miserable chapter in my life. I just don't feel like I want to keep hurting like this. WH can't help....He cries too.

I asked WH after the IC, why he couldn't sustain NC with OW after I reved up my sexual engine? If it was a need for sex, why did you call to offer Mother's Day greetings to her?

His first HONEST answer in 30 days....."It was hard to give up having sex with her....It was just really hard." Now, that is true honesty...Somehow, it's not what I thought my #1 EN would be like.


I could make it if I thought for SURE that this wouldn't lead to D Day #3, but of course there are no guarantees.

I'm sorry that I learned to prepare all of those low cholesterol meals. I. Am. DARN. sorry, that I included tomatoes in his diet to guard against prostate problems. Today, I do not like my husband. Today, I think I should have tied him to the waving tip of a flag flying over west he**.

This does not feel like living.

Hi Married,

Another FINE day on the rollercoaster. Ok first things first. You two are NOT supposed to have the same needs. I hope you understand that part. And yes needs change so don't panic about that either.

The idea is to start a dialogue about what you two have found out about one another. This dialogue should include How am I doing meeting those needs? Am I meeting them in a good way? Are you meeting my needs? Are you doing it in an effective way?

The counselor is right, the OW is NOT your concern. She is your H's concern. She keeps popping up in his life and half of is retirement is going to vanish along with the house and alimony. Won't be pretty. So HE has a problem...not you with regard to OW.

Withdrawal from an affair situation is very very common and it is like drug withdrawal. Your H needs to know this, it involves brain chemistry and he needs to stay away from OW and any contact or he prolongs the withdrawal and ups the risk of losing you.

I love this
Darn right and keep up the good work. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But, realize he asked YOU if you wanted to be married not your H.

Hang in there Married, this is a phase of recovery and if your H can keep his head out of dark places <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> for awhile you will see improvement.

God Bless,

JL

Married,

[color:"red"]Withdrawal bites.[/color]

Ace

P.S. Plus 'what JL said'. (Except I choose not to try to figure out what his double entredre might mean by inserting the <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> in his last sentence!)

Good morning Married,

I haven't posted for sometime but I have not ceased to pray and check each day to see how you are doing. (BTW Married and ReprobateMind, you both have fabulous writing styles!) Married, I have never been in your 'shoes' but God is there with you right now! I will continue to pray and follow your posts. You are not alone, you WILL get through this!

Warmest regards. Keep your head up, you are going to be fine.

Married, sorry you are feeling bad. I literally have to go RIGHT NOW, but I will chat later. I'm here. But first....

ACE....hehehehehehehheLOLOLOLOL....chortle, snort. That was classic. Its the mental image that really made me belly laugh when I saw your post. I will never be able to look at a <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> EVER again without getting a mental image! Just look at the eyes! Oh my god, this is horrible. I'm going to sue for mental anguish.

Sorry. Married, I'll reply tonight.

Hi Folks,

The <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> was fully intended. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I'll leave it to your imagination. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

JL

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

hehehehehe <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Married,

JL started this dark humor <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> threadjack, but I apologize for encouraging it. (If I delete my post, however, RM and DHD's comments will look a bit detached.)

Married, please be assured that I/we are not laughing AT you and I pray that you will laugh WITH us....or at least forgive us. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

How are you?

Ace <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I agree ace...but I think married needs some chuckles now and again and that... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> was a good chuckle.

Married, we are thinking about you and hoping you are ok. Let us know how things are going......

dhd
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Hello to my MB Friends!

Of course, dhd is correct! I do enjoy a bit of levity. Heck! I NEED to be able to smile in the midst of all that has happened to me over the past few weeks. Whenever JL, RM, or Ace are able to interject humor, it always seems to occur when I need to "lighten up."

I have just spent the last evening reading in the General Discussion section and I had a few eye opening finds:

First of all, everyone seems to agree, that sexual relations of 4 times a year, is a bit.....odd/just plain ridiculous. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I admit this!

Secondly, it appears as if multiple D Days is not extraordinary in many of the experiences here.

Finally, and this is just what I THINK....my WH has probably had many more A's that just kind of "petered out" and went undetected, in our 30 years of marriage.

I was reading a post where the BS wanted to reconcile with a mate that had multiple A's and was forgiven and taken back each time. The posters urged for the BS to get out and save himself....save the children from having to witness this revolving door of infidelity. I thought about what they said and applied it to my own situation.....

Could I have a serial cheater here, who has gotten away with multiple affairs and who now feels entitled to satisfy himself, peeking his head in all the "dark places?" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I ask this, because we appeared to have a great marriage. I THOUGHT we had a great marriage. Oh, yes, I knew he wasn't fulfilled......but we were loving and attentive toward each other. I love him so much. And then! Then I made a horrible discovery!! Four times a year is woefully inadequate! (How very naive and stupid I was!) It has made me think long and hard:

Can my WH give up his wandering? Will this 55 year old chick be able to sustain the level of intimacy that will satisfy his EN? [b]Can he be truthful and openly tell me what else he needs? I'm not buying that faulty questionnaire that he rigged! If not, can I manage to endure another A or D Day?[/b]

Perhaps I am doing what I have done my entire adult life....Perhaps I am creating friction and angst where none exists. I just keep thinking about the situation of that other BS, who became an enabler. There was an admonishment given to the poster, that perhaps the WS was acting upon a pattern of cheating/DDay/Forgiveness.

I guess what I am thinking is that if my WH has to contact OW again and I discover this.....I think I will be done. Finished.....He said, "The sex with her was good." "It was just really hard to stop seeing her." Just think folks...It was my idea for honesty!

When I said, "Well, if I had a 28 year old guy in MY bed, do you think I could be satisfied with YOU after that?" He thought for a moment and replied, "I will.....I can....I think I can be strong....I don't want to sacrifice our marriage.....I don't ever want to lose you.....I'll go to IC....I'll go to MC with you.....I'll read your book......I'll read a million books....I want to be married to you."

Finally, he said earnestly....."I THINK I can do it."

I sat there with my oatmeal brain....I whispered to myself.... DAMM*T!!! You think??????

People....I believe my WH is a true caveman. I don't know what happened!!! This really used to be a very, very intelligent man! I can't go through this crap again, with another D Day in my future. Maybe I am like that other BS....multiple affairs....multiple D Days.....multiple Plan A's.




We have been down this road 20 years ago. What started out as a very benign day, ended with LB's swirling around in my head. I didn't let them form into words...

There were soooo many LB's that I had oozing around. I didn't....And so, I am here.

Ok, I'm back. Busy 2 days...anyhoo....

Toldyasotoldyasotoldyaso. But, thats OK. After the "high" from memorial day weekend came the inevitable crash. Just know that while I said that it will get bad again, just know that it WILL get better (so long as he doesn't screw around). In the meantime, you are doing the right thing, that is, coming here and venting.

I see that your very, very intelligent man is now the very un-intelligent caveman. I say that he is reverting to his true natural male state. Every morning before you wives wake up, us men sneak in from slaying mammoths, burping, farting, drinking beer, and all that other stuff. We then attempt to morph into some semblance of the homo-sapien species, but sometimes the neanderthal bleeds through.

On a serious note, I would say that if he does mess up another time, then yeah, maybe you have some decisions to make. I TOTALLY agree with you being severely pissed of about "I THINK" and all of that bullsh?!. Make sure to remind him that you are not going to be an enabler.

I'm really proud of you. Why? Well, you had all of these smartass remarks in your head, and you kept the voices in your head from becoming the spoken word. That, my friend, takes strength. Please keep it up. You can be firm, but you can be fair.

I think that you have the advantage that some others may not have had, that is, you have identified a major biggie. That biggie was the 4X per year lovin'.

I totally agree with your rants to the effect of "Why would he be unhappy, I treat him great and now he has a young tart too, so what does he have to lose". This pissed off your marriage counselor, but you can always rant to us, your fellow posters. I promise never to call you "sick" or put you down, so you can spew all of your love-busting thoughts here. (That is, I will never call you sick unless you drink light beer or listen to rap. Thats just plain wrong.)

I'm really glad that you can find some smiles among us with our innuendos. Personally, I laughed out loud in the car for at least 15 miles on the way to my volunteer shin-dig last night thinking about the eyes, the open mouth, and then it hit me. THE FACE IS BLUE! Man, this is horrible. To top it off, today at work I found a huge workplace safety/security catalog. In it are literally hundreds of signs that you can order. Since I still had buggy eyes, open mouths, and blue faces on the brain, I was given over to a "reprobate mind" and snickered at "Slippery when wet", "Man working above", "Stay clear when ram in use", "Man working in constricted area", and many, many others. I'm going to stop now before I offend someone again. Its not my fault! I blame JL and Ace for everything!

Hang in there <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Oh, yeah. I was going to tell you last night. On the "SF and radical honesty" forum in General Questions II, there is a link to a quite comprehensive sexual survey. This one will take about 45 minutes to complete. I did it for the heck of it. What is useful is that it gives results based on the scores of other test takers so you can see how you rank.

Check it out, and if it is something that helped you learn something about yourself, then maybe your husband can take it, too. Or not. In any case, I just wanted you to be aware.

I refuse to say what my results were on the grounds that my testimony may incriminate me, so I wish to assert my 5th Amendment privileges. I didn't know a survey could cuss at you.

Married,

My H and I had SF continuously, nearly every day/night between D-Day #1 and #3.

For us, it made no difference. Seeking that OW was an addiction, a faux high.....driven by the adventure of hiding it and getting away with it. It was fueled by the enemy and H even admitted that my Plan Aing was the best. And my Plan SF was even better.

Don't beat yourself up for your annual quota of 4. The fog has far deeper tentacles when you factor in the emotional addiction, too.

More later....DH is actually home tonight so I must go!

Ace

P.S. RM, thoughtful post....will comment later, maybe on your EN thread. Dhd, thanks for the laughs! JL...I used to respect you highly.....LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Egad,

My reputation is shot all because of <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> All I have to say is <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Married,

I was thinking about your post all day. I realize that what I am going to say you won't be able to do right now, but I think in time you will.

Well, maybe you can do this first thing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Enjoy the SF, I mean tell him what you want, how you want it, and enjoy the moment. Look forward to it. Change your perspective and consider it your new physical fitness plan, because in reality it is really good for your health and yes his, although I'm guessing his health isn't high on your concern list. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

The next thing I know will be hard for you to do but consider it. You must realize that what you are worrying about you cannot control. He will stray or he won't. You don't have to worry about it. You do all you can do to be a good W. You do all you can do to enjoy your time with him and your family. And the rest will take care of itself.

If he fails, you will survive. If he fails you can leave OR you can stay, it will be totally YOUR call. If he fails, you will know. You don't know it but your senses have been sharpened and you are much more aware than you were. Further, you are better educated about this stuff now. Trust your gut, and your newly acquired knowledge.

I know you hurt, I know you doubt, but don't doubt yourself.You have proven to be a strong woman and a loving one as well. You should be very proud of yourself. He has proven to be less than the success he has felt of himself and he knows it, worse for him YOU know it. He will either buckle down and get with it, or he will slink away into another dark place. You don't have to take any personal responsibility for that.

Do the SF thing, it is good for you. Make darned sure he satisfies you, and yes speak up in bed. Don't just lie there, speak up and act up. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

But, most of all don't worry, he is the one that has to worry and he knows it. Next time he says "I think", ask him where his priorities lie? Ask him to do more than "think", tell him what you require is that he "do". You are putting out the effort and you expect him to do it as well.

Tell him you don't expect this to be a life sentence for him, what you do expect that he join you in making the marriage better and safer. If he cannot, he knows where the door is.

You don't have to be mean, but you do have to be resolute. Give this time, your worries and concerns as you are finding out are normal, sadly very normal. But, realize he is the one that needs to be worried. He cannot be so stupid as to think a retired 50 something professor has much to offer a 20-30 something bimbo especially when his home and 1/2 of his retirement is gone. In ten years he will have even less, but that is not the case for you for many reasons. Not the least of which is it sounds as if you are a good person.

So think about what I said, and worry a bit less. As you come to realize these things you will worry a lot less.

God Bless,

JL

JL,


Thanks for your sense of humor. That actually boosts my regard for you higher. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> In fact, would you check out my Trials and Smiles thread....and you, too, RM...and anyone else who can help me deal with my H's lying again. I would especially appreciate a guy's perspective on this, which is our latest trial.

How ya doin, Married? In spite of how well we're doing six months after intact NC, you'll see that we're only a few cars ahead of you and the prof on this rollercoaster ride.

But the more bumps and turns, the more opportunity to tweak and smooth things out. To keep positive, I try to revel in the thoughts that 'ONE DAY WE'LL BE ABLE TO USE THIS TO HELP SOMEONE ELSE'....

....And we just keep rollin' along. (But it's better than the alternative.)

Ace

JL, you continue to amaze with your mad awesome teachin' skillz once again. Keep it up.

Ace, Yeah, I'll check it out. Gotta go be with family.

Hello to all MB Friends!

I am still here. I have not posted lately, because I have failed to adhere to the MB principles. I was both embarassed and ashamed to admit this, especially after everyone was so generous with their time and well wishes for my M.

JL, thank you for your very thought provoking and lengthy reply....I have done VERY well in the SF area. However.....

LB's have been oozing out of my pores. In fact they weren't love busters....more like _____busters. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I just started to look at the professor one evening and Sybil took over my body. I couldn't stand it!! He'd gone to IC and came home very quiet and never mentioned one word about the session, us, the moon....NOTHING!!!!

I had a list of questions that had been eating away at me and I fired up the list. He sat there blinking behind his paper. Now, let me tell you, thirty days ago, this was cute and made him look thoughtful and reflective. Today? NOT!!!

I asked him the questions regarding our lack of SF during various episodes and tragedies in our lives. He was honest and forthright....but his answers made me want to climb on top of the couch and jump off. I told him that I had a need for his admiration. I am not looking for worship, but just acknowledgement for effort. A struggling and sincere student can be pushed to the other side, with just the right words.

I have written, edited, reworked and tutored people in both of our families for over 30 years. I should have at least four doctorate degrees. I proofread, edited, tutored and cajoled the professor through every advanced degree....Not once has he said more than "Oh yeah....This IS better written like this." "Thanks baby." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

That's it. Three advanced degrees....That's it. I tutored his less than intelligent nieces, nephews, brothers and sister. I gave up many spring and summer vacations to "help me pass this big test that will change my life." I did it because I saw a need and I did it because I knew I could make a difference. WH was pleased at my efforts and THAT pleased me.

I asked the professor, why he had never given me a compliment, EVER!!!!!!!! My father used to do that, and I hadn't remembered until I took the EN survey. The professor replied, "Hmmmmmmmmmmm. I think I have told you you're smart.....Haven't I? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I bit my tongue. I bit my inner jaw.

While still asking questions, I asked him HOW could he talk to a 28 year old for 134 min. and barely have anything to say to me on the phone? "Do you need bread" is NOT what the OW got...It IS what I got! I asked if he was attracted to her admiration of HIM.

His response? "Well, she did rather look up to me." "Oh, I don't want you to think she was stupid....She was SMART <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

SHE...WAS....SMART????????????????????????

I couldn't help it. I launched a lamp.

This is not my husband. This monosyllabic nitwit has taken my husband.

I ask you...Is this fair? These OW get the sexy, hunky, text messaging guy, and I get THIS guy!!!

LOL, you are cracking me up. Sounds like things are going as expected. Hopefully he will step up his effort, so you won't have buyers remorse.

Welcome back Married! I've been checking back often and was worried about you. Buy a couple more lamps just in case.

I'm married to an alien right now too. Strange species aren't they.

Believer is wise! I'm learning so much here. But I also think it is not a linear path....(and I so like linear). These twists and turns make me seasick. At least your H will go to counseling. Mine is perfect, doesn't need it, it doesn't work, did that with his XW....yea, like she is me...sure darlin!

Keep up the good work, you'll be fine, then you can visit my thread and give me advice....I sure need it now!

Hi believer!

Thank you for checking on me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> It makes me feel worthwhile, during these days of perpetual low self esteem. I would NOT be able to walk and talk at the same time, had it not been for the internet angels here.

You guys warned me about the rollercoaster( JL and RM), but I am still so unprepared for the daily and hourly twists and turns. Sometimes I just sit and stare into space. I have more work to do, as I am discovering new things about myself. Some are so eye-opening that I am startled by the revelations. Others are the result of my naivete.

I am not only angry with my WH, I am angry with myself as well. How silly and proud I was! We were the envied couple! The golden coosome twosome. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

He cheated and I retreated. No more. I have told WH that I don't want to fix this M with the bandaids of the past MC. I was told by the MC twenty years ago, to "Suck it up." Can you imagine saying that to a client who was so destroyed and shattered? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I want this M renewed. I want it to be different and better. WH will no longer be my EVERYTHING. It was foolish, so foolish to expect this mortal to become my WORLD. Well, he wasn't really my entire world, but he certainly shaped my view of the universe. Utterly stupid.

I am currently searching for an IC, because I don't see how the green socks and sandals guy has done much to help WH. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> We need the MC that Bill and Hilary had. Through a little mental prodding, I am finding that my EN just weren't met because I viewed them as just plain Emotional Baggage that I didn't need to carry into this marriage. Isn't that ridiculous? Neither of us benefited from the arrangement in the true sense of bonding and protection of the marriage.

There is so much more that has happened, but I will stop now. The past week was so HEAVY and I'm exhausted.

Ahopefulone, I will check on your thread first. My goodness! I just glanced at your D Day! May God bless you.

MF30,

Finding the power that you have in yourself is going to be what sets you free from all of this.

Healthy mind, body, and spirit are the MB trifecta.

Any one of these that suffers causes the sufferance of the other.

Concentrate on yourself and your well being and everything else will fall into place when you work the MB plan.

Letting you know .... you have not done/said/thrown one single thing that has shocked me ... !

You are [color:"red"] EGG ZAK LEE[/color] where you should be .... given the circumstances.

you are not nutz
you are not wrong

this is a sh*t pile .... and you are shoveling as fast as you can

do not beat yourself up for errors/wrong turns

really
trust me
you're fine
you're better than fine
you're in better shape than the prof

get rid of the green-socks shrink
.... too creepy

So Married I have a few questions for you.

Did you go with the "heater" or "the hook" using the lamp? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Also, are you a "southpaw" or a "righty"? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />
Did you wave the catcher off and just go with what you felt was right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

You do know that aliens beamed down from the mothership COULD be considered an endangered species don't you? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

At least here on the "left" coast they probably are considered endangered. Midwest and south they are probably just considered varmits.

So sounds like everything is going well in the Married household: the alien is trying to figure out what planet he is on. The Earthling is try to decide if eradicating the alien is a good idea.

Hang in there you are doing JUST FINE. Seriously, you are. You are learning and growing and your perspective on things is changing. My guess is that when the Mothership beams down your H, he will start to get with the program as well. It takes time, the Mothership is probably out behind Jupiter right now.

Hang in there Girl, you are actually doing well. Now please read Harley's article on how to pick a good counselor. You clearly know what a bad counselor is: green socks and sandals, that should have been a clue. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> You will know better from now on.

God Bless,

JL

Still ROFLMAO, JL!

Married,

After D-Day #3, I only threw a few out-of-character F-Bombs at H, but the same rage came over me when I was driving and I nearly threw my car into a concrete bridge abutment.

When I told H about it, he called mental health, got an immediate appt. for him (or so I thought) but when I showed up to support him, I found out it was for me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Suicide attempts warrant immediate appts. Supposedly when he called for help with his compulsive lying (my idea) they said it would be a week, so he told them about my near-date-with-bridge and they said to get me there ASAP!....but he didn't tell me that part until I arrived. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

We got through it Married, and so will you.....especially since you have MB posters to help. Wish I had.

Ace

Hi Married, Thanks for the visit, perhaps next time you stop in I'll make some lemon cake and chai latte and we can chat.....about aliens and heavy weeks and how we are going to be so bright and beautiful on the other side of this because our Heavenly Father refines gold by burning out the impurities. We are His children. No weapon formed against us will prosper! Ever! Period! He will never give us more than we can handle (sometimes I wonder about that) He will never leave us or forsake us (our aliens could learn a lot from that, yes?)

I admire your writing style, so fluent and elegant. It gives me something to reach for, thank you.

I pray for you often and know that God is with you constantly. My mom told me something I will share with you, it helps me when I'm sad and lonely and hurt:

Imagine that you are sitting in your Heavely Fathers lap, he is big and strong and loves you like an only precious child.You are very safe and loved there. Now imagine that his arms are around you and his hands are cupped together in front of you like they are holding water. Now make your hands into the same cup above His. Place ALL of your concerns, hurts, fears, worries, anger, and sorrows one by one into your cupped hands. Are they all in there, good. Now, dear daughter, open your hands and let all of that fall into the hands of your Father.

Go in peace.

By the way Married and all of your fans, your thread has become a delighful place to be, thanks to all of you wild and wonderful MB postrs for the smiles through the tears! I really needed that today.

Married,

The lamp was a good one. Contact with the prof. head might have been messy but entertaining....mmmm did I say that?

You are, it seems, rediscovering yourself. Being forced into this life altering situation has forced you to step back and take a look at YOU, and this can ONLY be a good thing. When you are forced to look at yourself like that you see things you never saw before and discover things you have needed to discover for a long time.

The prof. is VERY lucky to have YOU, he should be putting you on a pedastal and treating you with admiration. It is a two way street. You will be(and already are) so much stronger from this. You will come out of this a new and improved WOMAN!! Whatever the outcome you will be forever changed for the better.

Keep posting here no matter what you think you did or are embarassed about. You know we love you and are rooting for you from all of our corners!!!!


P.S. to JL,
You are such an ispiration and have been blessed with so many words of wisdom...thank you!! (and you make me laugh!)

dhd

Hi Married,

You said:



I asked the same thing....in fact, I printed the emails to her and the emails to me, put them in a binder, took them to our previous MC and asked the same question as you. Emails to her were long, flowing, full of promises for the future....just what I had wanted him to write to me for years.

His emails to me were short, abrupt, perfunctory.

He had spent hours on the phone with her, fantasizing about their life together. He let my calls go into voice mail and seldom called me back to ask "Do you need bread?"

Previous MC told H to 'step it up a bit in the romance area'. Sounded good, but was impossible given what I learned later from MB.

....That the alien inhabitation that makes WS's do uncharacteristic things is very real but can be temporary.....

...that the fantasy is deeply rooted and perpetuated by the thrill of the adventure (in my H's case 'just getting away with it' was exhilarating),.....

..... and that the fog enshrouding the alien fantasy was not going to go away until withdrawal was complete......weeks or months after the WS decides to commit and recover the marriage.

Married, I wish I could refer you to a time-machine that would fast-forward you past this pain we've all had to endure.



The absolute worst thing you could do, short of manslaughter <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />, would be to quit posting because you felt that your thoughts/actions would be disappointing to those of us who care.

To the contrary, sharing your honest feelings, lamp-launching episodes and re-occuring frustrations will help you get through withdrawal intact.

YOU CAN DO THIS, Married. I would not have believed it, either, but the alien/fantasy/fog will dissapate with time. Be patient, post often, even if it's as short as: "AAAAargh!"

As others with far more experience than me have said, "Your time-line fits in with what is to be expected."

Hang in there and let us encourage you by sharing what's been happening when you can.

Ace

There you are! I was wondering where you went off to. Lamp launching. I thought I saw something shadowing the space shuttle went it launched the other day.

You want Bill and Hillary's MC? Here it is..."Well, Hillary, I got caught. Again. Hmm, damn."

Hil - "Yes, Bill, you SO owe me big time. I've kept with your fat [censored] while you were playing president, now its my turn, just like we talked about back in '92."

Bill- "Well, um, yeah. So what do you have in mind?"

Hil - "You are going to make a mint off of your speaking engagements and that book deal that you are having ghost written. You know, if we divorce, I will make a bundle, and get to tell MY side of the story."

Bill - (GULP!) "Hey, wait. That also means if we divorce, I get to tell MY side of the story as well, like that time that you and Vince...

Hil - "OK OK! Tell you what. We will live in separate houses, on your dime, of course. You live in the city, and you can just buy me a house somewhere quiet."

Bill - "Like Martha's Vinyard?"

Hil- "Hel.l no! I know who lives there! Don't you try an end run so you can be with that slut Carly! I know that that horse-faced Babs hangs out there, too! Just buy me a house in Westchester. I suppose that will do."

Bill - "Why live in New York?"

Hil - "There is a Senate slot opening up there. Some guy named Lazio is the GOP front-runner. Piece of cake."

B-ll - "But you have to actually be a resident of the state to run for Senate, you know this! You've lived in Arkansas most of your adult life! You've never lived in New York!"

Hil - "So? There are enough stupid people in New York that will vote for me. The city alone will give me the votes. Buy me a house in Westchester, I establish residency, New York votes me in, simple as that."

Bill - "Well, yeah, I can see that. What if Rudy runs against you, though?" He IS kind of popular there..."

Hil - "Well, Bill, then you might have to recall that party you had with Rudy while I was in Florida..."

Bill - "Enough. I think I can tell Rudy not to run this time, but when his wife finds out, thats it. Then I can't protect you anymore. I can keep in out in 2000, but if he wants to run in say, 2008, I can't stop him unless he gets caught with his pants down again."

Hil - "Sounds familiar. Just let me worry about 2008, OK?"

Bill - "Sigh. OK, but Jesse wants to run, too. He has enough stroke to try to get the Dem. nominee slot..."

Hil - "Already got that one covered. Check the papers in the next few weeks. Lets just say that he and Bill Cosby have a lot in common."

Bill - "Doh! I have taught you too much!"

Hil - "Well, he learned from you, Bill."




And that was the extent of the marriage counseling session of Bill and Hillary. Do you really want that?

Good to hear from you again. I can't give you any better advice than what you have already seen, but I hope that this post killed some time and made you smile. Cheers!

Seriously, please keep checking in, even if it is just to vent.

Hello MB Friends!

I want to sincerely thank you all...I am doing fine? If you all think this is so, then I will try my very best to believe it. For your information, JL, I am a southpaw by nature, but I have the ability to change it up. I am somewhat ambidextrous, which was truly a gift when playing sandlot "piggy." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Pepperband, I love the phrase, egg zack lee! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I hope I've spelled it correctly. It brought such a broad smile to my face. I seem to be starved for signposts of my competence lately.

My WH and I had a pleasnt-enough weekend...My retirement is looming and I have been weepy. There are at least five phone messages daily, cards and constant pop-visits from so many students from my past. I have been at this school for over 30 years! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> One of the reasons that I never transfered or "moved up" was because of my students.

Whenever a parent has died, I am called. When a new child is born, I get a visit or a picture. If a favorite student is incarcerated, I will see them before and after their jail stint. As a very young bride, I even had 3 students in my wedding to the professor, against my parents' wishes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

During my career, I have even sadly eulogized a few. I've helped write obituaries, attended countless weddings..........You guys get the picture.

My emotions are just running away with me this week. I guess what I am trying to convey is this: I have been a successful teacher...I am admired by faculty, staff, parents and students.... But I have failed to have the impact in my life in the area that I most desired...my marriage.

JL, what you said about WH is also so true of me! I will not be remembered for THE TEACHER that I was...I will just be retired. I will be remembered for the woman that I was...the mother....the wife.

I had NO IDEA that one of my EN's was admiration! Seriously! I hear it all day and every day during the course of a teaching day. Sadly, the one person who could have made all of the difference in the world, withheld this from me. I have asked myself repeatedly: "Am I being vain, silly or obviously fishing for compliments?"

Truthfully, my friends, I am not. I really am not. I grew up in a family where you were expected to "do your job and do it well." No compliments were given....EVER!!!!! You were not told of your attributes....there were no birthday presents or celebrations....a good report card was your duty. Special gifts were not given and you certainly weren't to expect them.

Was my childhood sad? Somewhat....But not anything like the news of today's child. My WH was a breath of fresh and decent air in high school. He was such a quiet, serious, athletic and attractive young man!

I am sad today. I still question my own attractiveness, intelligence and self worth as a result of this A. I have surmised that there were many. I have not pressed for additional information, because my WH needs to help discover who he actually is and stop trying to be who I thought he was.

His comments tonight made me lower my head and cry in private: Married, I am not perfect, but I tried to be perfect for you." "I thought about what you said...Maybe I was attracted to loose and trashy women, because they were easy to talk to." "They always approached me, so maybe that's just what I attract." "Married, I never felt that you would have married me, if we hadn't been so young."

"I always thought you could have done better....You could have married someone better than me." "So, I always tried to make you happy." "I asked God to make you love me in 1970 and he answered me." "I love you...I always loved you....I always will....But the sex thing has just ALWAYS been an issue with us."

JustLearning, Ace, Pepperband....He missed the point....I just wanted HIM....He was always enough for me.....The smiling, competent, perfect and prim little schoolteacher just wasn't enough for him.

This new information just broke my heart and makes me cry, even now. My heart aches for both of us. I looked at him sitting across from me and I wanted to hold him just like I used to do. I wanted to make him happy. I wanted him to be whole again. I wanted us to be 18 again. Finally, I wanted us to be a happy and healthy 55 again.

We need a very good counselor! The Green socks/sandals Guy is just woefully inadequate! It seems as if there are so many layers for us both to peel back to reveal our true selves....not our 18 year old selves...not our patched-up married selves.

How in the world did we move so far apart, and how did I fail to recognize it?

RM, We could say the same about you! Funny dialogue....still laughing, in fact. Hope you had a great time with your family last week.

Married,


The more important question to ask is "How do we bridge the gap now that we know it exists?"

Understanding 'how' it happened can't change it for now, but it can help it from re-occuring...but you/we may never know the entire answer ever.

Look forward, Married, and only look back long enough to glean enough to avoid the past.

What do we want and how do we get there? Finding a competent MC is the definite first step. You could call Steve or Jennifer if green socks is your only option.

Keep us posted on your progress.

Ace

Married,

Lots of things to say but before I run out of time I want to address something here that you need to really think about. OK?

You said
I was going to parse this set of statements but you last question is one YOU have to address. He said it was about the sex. I really don't think you understand how rejected men feel when their W shuts them out of the bedroom physically. I am not offering excuses for him, but you asked "how did I fail to recognize it?" and to me this is a truly profound question for which you need someone with sandals and green socks. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I mean how is it that you are married for 30 years, teach HS kids, are bombarded daily with the message that SEX sells, and is important to men, and not notice that 4 times a year is probably NOT getting the job done so to speak?

I am asking you this a very important reason. Your lack of interest in sex, reflects a lack of interest in your H in reality. Where was YOUR focus really? What brought YOU the most pleasure REALLY? How could you not know that admiration was a key need for you, when most people go into teaching for that very reason?

Your H has given you some deep clues about his thinking and the state of the marriage as he saw it.
Step back and assume that this statement is for real. I think it might be. What does it tell you? How did and does he see the marriage? Was he afriad to approach you more often for sex? Perhaps. Was he afraid of losing you by asking for more? Perhaps. Did he feel you didn't really need him or were not easy to talk to? That is what he says.

My point, it is not really the sex per se' that I am focusing on, but having sex 4 times a year and not knowing that it was/is most males very highest need suggests that YOU were not as involved in this marriage as you think you were.

Married, I am not trying to make you the "bad guy" in this marriage. I am trying to get you to see that there is a path by which YOU BOTH can rebuild this marriage and make it something it apparently has not been for a long time IF EVER. There is hope another words. There are things that can be done, that have not been done.

Your H was a fool, and a liar, and a cheat, no way to sugar coat that. And it is accepted by all. But, IF you want this marriage you need to understand what each of your roles were in the marriage and address those roles.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Well...As always, JustLearning....You have hit the nail squarely on the head. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

How do I begin? I am a teacher, because that is what I have always done...I began tutoring at the age of 11. I was hired to babysit and it just turned into tutoring. It was natural and the results were applauded by the parents in my neighborhood. How could I not have known one of my EN's was admiration? I was sought after for tutoring and that's just the way my life evolved. I don't think I ever gave it a second thought until MB.

I guess I just wasn't tuned in! I am from a long line of teachers...it's just what we do. How in the world I fell in love with a man who failed to offer admiration? This is still something I must think about.

The sex thing? Hmmm. It began in high school, I suppose. It was EXTREMELY important in my family to abstain from sex before marriage. EXTREMELY IMPORTANT! EXTREMELY !! I think I may have mentioned that I began the "sexual foxtrot" on prom night. At my high school, if you had a steady boyfriend, then you consumated the deal on prom night. We never discussed this beforehand.

The girls were supposed to wear a garter and the guy was supposed to slip it off seductively. It was supposed to signal the beginning of SF. Well, when WH asked about the garter later that evening....I took it out of my purse and HANDED IT TO HIM. I sat as close to the car door as I possibly could, without being on the outside of the car. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

WH accepted this, but never stopped trying. We continued to date and each date ended the same way: He would try to have SF and I would refuse. I was warm and affectionate, but I definitely wouldn't "go all the way." He would continue to try....then he would promise to honor my wishes and would stop trying for a day or so....then he would TRY AGAIN.

I finished college in three years. He never wanted to continue his education, but I was forbidden to date him if he wasn't enrolled in college. My parents were deeply embedded in the "unevenly yoked" speeches. So...WH went to college and we dated exclusively throughout.... And the foxtrot continued.

Let me interject a little ditty here. JustLearning, I am very robust and energetic once I get started. That has always been the case. I know that is one of the reasons that my WH continued to try all of those years ago. You see, once in a while, I might surrender. He never knew when that might happen, so he just kept trying. There were a few "breakthroughs" in college, but not many.

This pattern has been in our M since the very beginning. Birth control became abstinance. Even as I type this, I feel foolish. WH is a very sexual guy and always has been. What I have done to this M really is criminal and I fully realize this now. I didn't know HOW important this was, because we NEVER had a rational discussion.

Oh, he would periodically rage and I would temporarily succumb. I use this word, because that is what I did. Whatever I was angry about, I would place it on the back burner if I knew he was furious regarding SF. If I am to engage in honesty, then I will have to admit to the professor, that what he suspected has always been true: Witholding sex has always been my ideal weapon of choice.

My efforts, at the beginning of our relationship, were to be a "good girl." That's what I always heard in my home growing up. Well, I now understand that I was a good girl, but I failed to up the ante once I married. When I was angered or wronged in my M, it was easy to just turn my back in bed. Not only did I turn away...I put on mental earmuffs when he'd ask and ask and ask and.....

People! I was stupid! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> This part of our R has improved greatly. Yes, I realize what I have done repeatedly throughout this M and I am now taking steps to repair the damage. There hasn't been this much action since the honeymoon and WH is swooning. This is all fine and dandy, but if I let the "people in my head" get started, then I get angry all over again.

I am not foolish enough however, to think that this will solve all of our current problems, or end my anguish. WH has begun to look for MC and he has narrowed the search to two. I should know who we will see by Wednesday. Reprobatemind has helped me to determine that Bill and Hilary's MC technique will not work for us!

I have discovered a few things. It was not easy for WH to talk to me. It seems that his words would not be measured or filtered for these OW. I have a looooong list of do's, don'ts and various points of protocol. I can write my very own book of etiquette and manners.

WH felt that he "never measured up" and was always in violation of my "ethics code." I have been guilty of DJ that come out exponentially. Did I know that I engaged in DJ? Truthfully? Well....Yes. I just didn't know what they were called. I also didn't know their consequences.

My WH and I can put this M on better footing and on honest and solid ground. The man has lied and cheated for so long.....I just need him to be honest from this point on. During the headiest time of the fog, he looked at me and said, "Why are you asking me that...You KNOW now that I'm a liar."

That's what I need now...no more lies...no more. He made the decision to have multiple A's. I think he would have continued had he not picked the little wh*re from He!! this last time. I will bet he is still wondering how his sweet little admiring student "turned on him." After all, since "she was smart," I don't think he saw it coming. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> It was a real wake up siren. I am willing to stand up and claim what I want and need. I am also willing to lay down and....

He is willing to do the work and I am too. It must be a new beginning. I'm not sad today (God! I hate the rollercoaster!) Ace, you are so right! Today I am focused on the lesson plan.

People....Donna Reed IS DEAD. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Married,

You crack me up! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /><img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

If I wasn't on the same pathetic ride, I would almost want to jump aboard just to hear your ebullient descriptions!

I'm just a few cars ahead on the "Donna Reed is Dead" train but I have an idea.

Mark1952 lives in the Chicago area and I will seek his input on alternatives to green socks. (Your profile only says IL, but I'm sure he might still be able to help.)

Married, it seems that we teachers have an odd gene or chromosome or something others may perceive as a wire loose. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Many might call it a servant's heart which is usually a good thing. Except when we fail to focus inward because we seem hardwired to 'fix it' for others....maybe this is why we were oblivious to what is beginning to seem obvious now.

Our WH's did what any normal male would do. Your's sought sex and significance, mine sought significance and 'sorta' sex. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> (Just how intimate can one really get with a plastic phone or a plastic keyboard?)

Both (your H's PA and my H's EA) were strong enough to breach their vows to us and shroud it in secrecy.....for a long time.

What matters most now, however, is that we create the needed lesson plan, like you said, and focus inward to fix the outward 'owwwies' in our M's.

We can do this, Married. Finding our MC was the key for us. I hope your new options work out. If not, we'll see if Mark can help you find one.

Ace

Hi Married,

I haven't posted to you before because I am generally a lurker and am here more to learn for myself. I have been following your thread with interest for various reasons, primarily because of how articulate you are in your posts. Rarely have I seen in my life someone who is so willing to be in touch with their own feelings and to admit and work on their own issues as you have. You should be proud of this! You are human, and have no problem with that. Now that's cool.

M. Scott Peck in "People of the Lie" describes the inability to see one's own failings and weaknesses as the root of evil. You are clearly the opposite of that.

I also want to add something to your thread. I observed in your husband's words a deep admiration of you:

"Married, I never felt that you would have married me, if we hadn't been so young."

"I always thought you could have done better....You could have married someone better than me." "So, I always tried to make you happy." "I asked God to make you love me in 1970 and he answered me." "I love you...I always loved you....I always will...."

I also saw that he changed his educational plans to enable you two to stay together.

Despite what he did, which is a huge mistake, it is very clear to me that he loves you very much and always has.

Hang in there and keep up the good work!

Great insights, Ahnold.

Married, FH listed OTHER MC OPTIONS for you if WH's selections don't work out.

Ace

Married,

Again not a lot of time so I won't say all I want to about your last post.

I think you are starting to see a variety of things about your marriage, that need to change. Yes, the SF part, but what I see is dismisal of him. I see a school teacher in control of her class (him). He quit fighting and took the path of least resistance, which as you know is usually the path to perdition.

What I think you will find is that you BOTH will have resentments based on how you two have treated your marriage to date. And I would like to offer you a quote to consider and show your H.
Please, please both of you consider this carefully, and then give voice to your resentments and discuss them. BUT, remember there are MANY MANY good things about both of you. Don't lose sight of the good things.

What is clearer in your postings than in most but usually is equally true in most cases, is that when everyone steps back there is plenty of "blame" to go around. Soooo, the idea is to avoid the blaming thing and discuss what your future will be. What will make you happy? What will make him happy?

And here is where you can really help Married. Given what your H has said and what you know of his actions, what would a real, deep, meaningful marriage be like for you? Would you enjoy SF more than before? Would you open up and allow him in and let him feel freer to speak with you? Would you two laugh more? Would you two hold each other more? Would you two cease being each others teacher/professor and be more friends? Think about this carefully.

I know you are still in pain, and frankly your self-revelations don't ease that pain do they? However, your self-revelations can help your H, help you. Odd isn't it? He is going to have to help YOU with your role in this marriage. So given that nature loves symmetry, guess is going to have to help him? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> That would be you, of course.

You two have a lot of work and healing to do, BUT just remember it can be fun, it can be an adventure, and it can be rewarding. You both need to discuss how to make it such. I am sure he is enjoying your being more accessible to him physically, but what you may not realize is that what he really enjoys is being closer to you emotionally, which is what SF with a loving spouse does.

My feeling is that some of this will taper off as he comes to trust that you have his best interests at heart and you show it. As he shows you he can be honest and open, you will also draw comfort from that as well as a sense of closness.

Must go, keep up the good work, you two are doing better than you seem to realize. I look forward hearing the type of footware your counselor has when you two select one. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

God Bless,

JL

Hello again.

I want to tell you something, no jokes for a minute. I'm being 100% serious...

I admire you.



Yes, I do. I am really impressed with the way that you are trying to work things out with your husband. I think that is great. If I ever got caught screwing around, I figure my wife will divorce me flat out. On the other hand, I would do the same. You are not. Thats wonderful!


I admire the way that you still want to work out the marriage.

I admire the fact that you found this site and take the time to post.

I admire the fact that you listen to good advice on here.

I admire the fact that you read books and other literature about repairing marriages, in an attempt to get advice.

I admire the fact that you are seeing a marriage counselor.

I admire the fact that even though the counselor isn't all you wanted, you are still trying.

I admire the fact that you go into great detail with your self-analysis going back to high school and all through your marriage, however painful that may be.

I don't have any more advice for you today, your other friends on here are doing that better than I ever could. However, I can just let you know that if it is admiration that you want, well, there as at least one person on here that is reading about what you do, and thinks that it is pretty cool.

Married,

Ace asked me to assist you with a search for MCs because we are both in Illinois. The problem of course is that Illinois is almost 58000 square miles and about 390 miles from Winthrop Harbor to Cairo. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Since 90% of the population lives within 50 miles of Chicago, that is where the majority of MCs are located.

I am in the area around Joliet, so if I can be of any help, let me know.

When I was looking for MCs a year ago, I got a list from Focus On The Family and from New Life Ministries by asking for help and explaining my sitch. Not only did they reply with info on counselors in my area, they also promised to pray for us and even sent follow up emails a couple times just to find out how things were going.

FOTF is at www.family.org and www.focusonthefamily.com. They also have a sister site at www.troublewith.com.

New Life is at www.newlife.com. BTW, their radio program with live call in begins at 1pm CDT on Monday through Friday (right after Dr Harley's show ends- 10am CDT till 1 pm M-F)<end of plug> I think they have a list of stations that carry the show on their site.

Any MC you go to has to be someone that both of you are comfortable with. I would also suggest that he/she be questioned regarding whether or not they are familiar with Dr Harley's body of work. The MB way is proven and not based on the typical pop-psychobabble-Freudian-fallacy if-it-feels-good-do-it mentality of so many. A question I asked several people right up front was "How many marriages have you saved through your counseling methods?" If they didn't know, I didn't go. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

FWIW, anyone who wears green socks in public should attend counseling...or maybe they need a visit from What Not To Wear... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Mark

How's the MC search going, Married?

Ace

Thanks for the info and offer Mark.

Ace

Hello To All of My MB Angels!

I have only had a scant few minutes to lurk during the past few days. I am now officially retired!

My WH has been with me each and every day and we have definitely exceeded our 15 hours of companionship. I have found that I do enjoy his company so much. The "people in my head" speak to me at the oddest times. The voices are not as loud and the visual images are not as vibrant...and I have been able to cope.

Mark and Ace!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Thank you ever so much for the list of counselors. WH and I have an appointment for one of the religious counselors from the list on Mon. and another session with a recommended counselor on Wed. of this week. We are going to use this as an opportunity to combine the visit with a short sightseeing excursion. I feel very good about these upcoming sessions, because now I think I will be able to focus on rebuilding our M. The counselor was very positive during the phone interview and admonished me for a LB.

As my WH listened in, I told her I was interested in MC and this was my "last effort." She quickly told me that her practice was established on the concept of recovery. She told me that if my attitude was one of defeat and resignation, then I was approaching MC with a defeated attitude. WH just listened....He says very little during the phone interviews. I want to reach into the phone and just SQUEEZE his voicebox. It kills me, but I refuse to make the interview process easier for him. He will not say that we are entering MC because he had an A. He conducts the interview as if we were shopping for a new RV, or a television.

Ace! You are so vigilant! Thank you! Thank you! When I failed to respond, you were right there! You are my kind of human! I love manners and protocol! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

WH was my "date" at the flurry of retirement parties and receptions. I heard over and over :"You guys look so good together." "The two of you are so lucky to have each other...Just think, you're on another honeymoon now."

It was during these types of exchanges that the "people in my head" would begin to grumble! My WH looked so dashing and respectable. I would look at him and start to wonder "How can he stand there in that stupid dinner jacket and know that he was in a cheap motel with his student for more than five months?"

During all of the dancing and prancing, I kept wondering why he refused to go to any of his own retirement celebrations?

I have asked him about this. My WH walked away from his university carrying a little orange crate...Over 30 years of his memories and life were shoved into that little container. He left with only a few cursory good-byes and turning in his keys.

He was with me at my school during the surprise party thrown by students, parents, faculty and staff. I glanced over to see him smiling broadly and videotaping the gathering. He just waved and continued to man the camera.

I am focusing on this, because I truly don't understand how this man could function in this manner. I must read more regarding how a WS is able to compartmentalize. My WH must be able to do this very, very well. Each time a compliment was given, WH just grinned and accepted it... He does not look or act sheepish. Outwardly, he looks unscathed...He does not act like the man who broke my heart. I see no remnants of the crying professor who grabbed me by the shoulders and begged me to stop searching for evidence, while he cried buckets of tears. I squint at him privately, as I look for vestiges of that man who immediately broke the NC to call the OW. I do not see any part of that sexy, text messaging machine.

What I am not saying clearly is this: Can my WH still be pretending? Is he just waiting for the opportunity to contact his little sexpot? Is he sincere in his outward attepmts to meet my EN? Can he be happy with the little schoolteacher after all? Does he miss the OW? Wouldn't he HAVE to miss her? Does he have people in his head too?

During SF I stopped to ask my WH if he remembered where he was...Let's just say that he was...gleeful. He said that he remembered that it was me that he was with. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I now know that SF four times a year was wrong. I suppose that I just don't believe that he loves ME enough to give up his life of secrecy and infidelity. Yes, JL, I think my radar will detect this...but still...this A has rocked me to my very core. I can hardly believe that this nightmare was detected only this past April 29th.

I am still very insecure in this particular area of SF. After all, OW was 28 years old. I keep thinking that stuff may have changed since the last time I expressed myself sexually. I still have visions of her doing very MODERN....things. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

JustLearning, I really DID feel connected to this M. I really DID feel we had a great relationship. I honestly did. I NEVER felt the lack of SF was a problem for us. It just seems so silly of me now, as I look at this in hindsight....But during the course of my M, I really and truly thought we were connected. I go over your posts several times a day, because each time I see and feel something different there. You are such a wise man and I am so sorry that I'm a bit "thickheaded" at times.

I am very, very saddened to think of where we would be now, had I not found this site. Just think....before DDay in April, I had never used the computer to do more than play solitaire and to type a few tests. I had no one to turn to...I had no balm for that horrible pain. I will be forever grateful.

Reprobatemind,, I do appreciate you so! I can't imagine that you are 30 years old! Your list of admirations played over and over in my head during the week of celebrations. I sat there listening to all of the accolades and I had to smile to myself! I kept wanting to add: "Oh yes, there is one more thing that I would like to add, that my friend Reprobatemind has just mentioned to me!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

There were very few LB's this past week. My WH encountered two coworkers at a combined district-wide retirement celebration. He laughed and exchanged pleasant conversation and NEVER INTRODUCED ME. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I immediately told him that I was a person...I was his wife...I expect to be introduced....I am NOT your girlfriend for the night. He apologized, but for the life of me, I don't understand this guy! I reiterated that this is unacceptable behavior. His response? "Oh....I'm sorry." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I feel that I must continue to tell everyone here at MB over and over, that this really IS an intelligent man.

And so my friends, I am feeling so much calmer. I anticipate my session tomorrow. Ahopefulone, dhd, Pepperband, Plank and Ahnold, I want to thank you all for looking in on me and believing that I have the strength and courage for this adventure. I appreciate you all so very much.

take a look at the link I posted to Dr Harley's video message....

I think you'll gain some comfort there

MF30, I have been reading your thread and have marvelled at your sense of humour throughout, even so soon after d-day - you should write a book about this! When I first read your comment about SF 4 times a year, a grin crossed my face (as I've just about recovered my sense of humour after my nightmare year). My FWH would, I think, have been rather grateful if we'd had SF 4 times a year. Due to some gynaecological problems, which I know is a poor excuse and we should have sorted it, we didn't have any SF for 15 years! We're making up for lost time now, too.


Ditto for me on this one. Nothing was said, so I assumed it was OK.

Married,

So glad you appreciated the list. My seeking Mark's input led to ForeverHers, an MB veteran to post the list on the recovery thread just as he was leaving to celebrate his 30th anniversary, 5 years after his D-Day.

BTW, FH's list and Mark's musing have created an intriguing thread that you inspired on the recovery forum. Hope you can post your insight on "If you've been Married for 30 years, what's your MAGIC?" sometime.

For you both, Married and DH59, I am evidence that SF often does not deter a wandering spouse. Even when I left in the middle of the night to sleep in the guest room (because I got tired of being kicked for snoring), we were both sexually fulfilled....well so he says. When I was trying to be OW's friend, she claims he told her that, too. Didn't stop them from having phone sex and letting my calls go into voice mail, though.

Married, I am so proud of you and your progress. Glad you are retired and your WH is apparently desiring to recover your marriage, too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It is an interesting adventure, this infidelity rollercoaster of recovery. Hang on.....you can make it.

Ace

Married for 30 Years,

My name is Mr. Goodstuff; I am pleased to make your acquaintance. I have been observing your story from afar and noted that you have been assisted by some real talent. I had little more to offer you then that you were getting from the likes of Just Learning and the others so I just watched and read.

Like you, I too have been married for 30 years. That is a lot of investment to simply throw away to preserve a damaged ego. Certainly no one would blame you if decided that it just wasn’t worth it. My wife betrayed me just as your husband betrayed you. I was as blind to the deficiencies that were building in my marriage just as you were blind to the ones that were building in your marriage. Be that as it may, it is certainly refreshing for me to read that you have chosen to give this marriage “your best shot”. It is equally refreshing to know that your husband feels the same way. I think that is wonderful, really, really wonderful.

My wife and I are rapidly approaching the three-year mark. How did we reach this milestone? Simple really. We are here for three key reasons; 1.) We discovered this site along with some poster, ahhh what’s his name, oh yea, “Just Learning”, 2.) My wife wanted her husband more then she wanted other men, 3.) We BOTH wanted to save our marriage and indeed, wanted something even better.

Based on what I’ve read of your travels thus far, “I like your chances!”

Keep in mind that your husband and you are very early in this whole process. As the days turn to weeks and the weeks to months things WILL improve and you will begin to breathe easier. That is of course IF you both continue to consider some of the great advice that is here and KEEP YOUR EYES ON THE BALL. A good marriage takes work and a great marriage take “smart” work. So never again underestimate the pitfalls of raw complacency.

Nuff said. I pulled out several quotes from this tread that I thought were notable or just plain amusing:



Like you, the clerk just reached under the counter and handed it to me without a second glance, but I must tell you that I was completely MORTIFIED. It made me smile to read of your similar encounter.



You really need your partner to understand these Marriage Builder principles. As your recovery progresses it becomes more and more important that you travel this road as a “team”. He needs to know about the “love bank”, “giver and taker”, “radical honesty”, “transparency”, “emotional needs” and all the rest. Make sense, yes / no?



It took my wife 4 weeks to fully surface the depth of her betrayal and for no contact to be firmly established. So please, do not be too dismayed. Your reactions are normal, natural and expected by everyone here.



I see you have kept your humor intact. When you described your doc with “green socks and sandals,” the image was just too much for me to bear; I couldn’t help but laugh out load. Your sense of humor will serve you well. I can’t stress how important I think that really is.



And that last sentence is one you should NEVER forget.



Yeah, I suppose it’s true, we men are at the core, just a bunch of “cavemen”. Yeah, that’s it, “cavemen from Mars”, and don’t you forget it!



Most men romantically connect with women through SF. It is how men “love”. Most men will wither and die without it. Even more then that it is important that YOU like and enjoy SF with your husband. For me, a romantic sexual encounter with my wife is the pinnacle of intimacy and love. When she responds to my advances I just go “goo-goo”. When she takes what she wants from me to her own satisfaction I go, “goo-goo double plus”. It is a power that you women have, use it to build and grow your love with your husband.



Did he duck? Pricless!



It is not always easy to find the right fit. Perhaps wing-tips and shorts might work better for you.



You are at the cusp, he is at the cusp. Feel free to move from “Just Found Out” to the “In Recovery” forum, as that is where you have both arrived.



Me too!

Mr. G

Mr. G,

Good to see you around these parts. I think Married will be needing your services in a very short time as she and her H move into recovery. Please hang around and congrats to you and Mrs. G I am so glad for both of you. It is hard to believe it has been 3 years. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Married:

A few comments on your comments. Or should I say impressions based on your comments. I think you are reading a few things incorrectly with regard to your H. Permit me to offer you afew examples of what I sense. You said
Short answer...SHAME. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I suspect he feels he doesn't deserve any acknowledgements. You may take some solice in this, but in the long run it could hurt your marriage. What is hard for a BS to understand, is that they NEED their WS recovered or the marriage will suffer. Don't need to do anything just now, but put this in the back of your mind.


What did he say when you asked? Universities are different than K-12 schools in that the people in them don't often work together or share as much, but my guess is that feels he has brought dishonor upon himself and he deserves no acknowledgements. Sad when you think about it.


My bet...he is proud of you. He enjoys your success and the acknowledgements bestowed upon you. He feels you deserve them. Remember you were blind to a few things in your marriage, and I am betting so was he. Your blindness led to inaction, his led to poor decisions and actions. But given that, I am sure he enjoys seeing you in this fine moment in your life.

Next you stated and asked
Why would he be showing remorse at your retirement party? Why would he have to compartmentalize being their with you from something else? I don't see the line of questioning in your mind being very productive and probably not near what he is seeing or thinking. What I do think is you are very close to a disrespectful judgment, DJ, thinking along this line. This is not productive for you.




I don't know but the answer is yes he could be happy with the "little school teacher", because he does not have to remain married to her, but he has and he is facing the music. As for the OW, you are giving her too much power over you. She probably has more power of you, than she does over your H at this point. Let your H worry about her, you address recovery and your H. Remove her from having control over YOUR thinking.



Yikes, I'll bet that was fun for H. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
Of course it has rocked your world. I am fully convinced that if you knew beforehand that what you were doing would threaten your marriage you would have changed. I am sure your radar is working just fine. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Let me offer you something to consider, especially older men <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />. Your can easily give up the younger model for several reasons. One, he has a long history with you, and I think loves you more than you and perhaps he realized. Two, as men age beauty changes. Yes, when confonted with a stunningly beautiful young woman, men notice. However, what men want is to be noticed by their significant other. Men see form and shape, thus as we age our sense of beauty does as well. I am sure you are very attractive to him, and I am sure he would prefer you, an enthusiastic you, to anyone. Why? You know him, and have loved him for a long time. He knows that deep down even if he felt rejected by you over the years.

Married you have far more going for you than you realize, and frankly the OW is very likely the loser in any comparison. Will he go back to OW? I doubt it, but he could. You will know. Have some confidence in yourself.


Oh Man Married I want to just flat out answer this, but I cannot on a public forum. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Just let me say, that you sound like a teenager in reverse. Teenagers cannot conceive of the fact that their parents know ANYTHING about sex. Further, they feel they invented it. But, dear lady there is little new under the sun with regard to this topic. You have all of the tools, and I am betting you know how to use them. I would guess the only one you are not using well enough is your mind. You see it is YOUR job to see to it that your H satisfies you...tell him what you want, and when he does it well, thank him. You have no idea how that affects men. I will simply say it is powerful. This OW did not invent sex, she is not necessarily very skilled. All she offered was an enthusiastic partner. You can beat that hands down, because you love him as well. You have nothing to worry about Married.


What I think you are missing when focussing on the SF issue is that you failed to take your H's comments and requests seriously and discounted them because these things were not important to you. That level of rejection is soooooo powerful and you really need to learn to appreciate it and avoid it. Your H could of "taken things in hand" and probably did, but what really got to him was to be rejected by you.

You don't know the power you have in this relationship Married, and if you learn that your marriage will flourish.

Must go.

God Bless,

JL

Glad to see things are a bit better. That roller coaster goes down, but it goes up, too! Eventually, it will even out.

For what it worth, will it count for anything if I tell you I will turn 31 on July 2nd? Maybe I won't seem so wet behind the ears, then :-)

As far as "modern" technique, let me comment. You see, I am the voice of youth and vitality on this forum. I'm hip. I'm so modern, it hurts to look in the mirror. Ask me anything you want about modern techniques. I'm so modern, that the modern stuff now I call "old school". hehehehe.

Seriously, JustLearning hit the nail on the head (again). There is nothing new under the sun. Check out the frescos at Pompeii and Herculaneum. I have, for purely historical research purposes, of course. Don't worry about "modern" stuff. You know it all already. In case you don't, this is one area that old dogs can learn new tricks quite well.

Let us know how things are going. It made me feel good that I made you smile via DSL modem.

Well, I'm learning new tricks! 'Kama Sutra for 21st Century Lovers' is quite handy, if you're reasonably flexible!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Married,

Glad to see you are slowly but surely doing better. JL knows just what to say and he said all the right things!!

You are never, never, never too old for "modern" kinda love!! Be VERY open and honest with him in bed...for your sake and his. It is the best way to be!!

I do have a funny (and tramatic for me) story that will make you laugh. My grandmother heard something about oral s-e-x (OS) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> on the Dr. Phil show and told me about it but what she was telling me about was NOT OS <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />!! So I had to look into my 80 year old grandmothers eyes and politely tell her what OS was. She honest to God didnt have a clue. And after I told her all there was to know, she said (and I quote) "Well I am sure they DO NOT do that in North Carolina (which is where we live)". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I swear this is a true story. Hope this mad you laugh, and I hope you continue to do well!!!

DHD

Hello to My MB Friends!

I thank you all. I want to say this first, because I really have needed you in my life. I have a very small extended family and I felt as though I had no one to turn to. I had no confidants to help me navigate the infidelity minefields, until I came here.

If I were to inherit any money...Let's just say a few people here would have no financial worries. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

My WH and I have completed the first MC session and it went fairly well. The counselor does not follow MB principles, but I think it will still be fine. Our counselor did not allow me to heave, cry and ramble on and on.

She allowed me to express my disappointment, but I couldn't stay in that place. She kept me focused on the marriage at hand. She began by asking us each if we were there to save the M. She proceeded to inquire about our families.

As she made inquiries and notes, she presented us with a family tree of infidelity that would make a Kennedy blush. Of course we knew of the circumstances, but to see them all on paper! Unsettling! She STILL doesn't have the whole story either. WH forgot an uncle or two....and that roaming brother of his!

She briefly touched on EN's, but they weren't identified as such. This MC would not allow WH to stroke his beard thoughtfully and reply, "Hmmmm. I really don't know." She also shut down his most classic line of, "Well....Let me think a moment....No, I don't remember that, actually." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> My WH is not comfortable discussing what HE wanted, or what HE needed. I, on the other hand, have awakened! I know what I want, I know what I need and I definitely know what I didn't have.

I appreciated that the MC would not allow me to lob LB's across the marital net. Every time I attempted to revisit a particularly ugly memory, she would admonish me and say, "Married....Stay with us in the NOW." "You and the professor need a plan for this marriage. You both have a lot of work ahead of you."

I appreciated the focus, but I was bursting at the seams to "spill my guts." I think I tipped her off and let her know when a nasty LB was going to erupt. It seems that every time I'd recross my legs, a LB was about to fly. She "read" my body language. This is the thing. I hadn't felt the urge to use any LB for a week or so. The act of sitting in that office brought them back to the surface.

This MC was firm. She was gentle. She gave HOMEWORK!!!! I love homework! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> She gave us reading material excerpted from a text other than MB. WH and I are to discuss the text on EN's and open a dialogue. I have read my materials three times....the professor is STILL reading and HIGHLIGHTING his for the first time.

We are taking teeny, tiny steps in this. WH has ventured to say that he never thought to voice his other EN's. He said that if he'd had SF, then he felt everything else would have been "fine." At some point this week, the professor will eventually finish his reading....SIGH.

Did I mention that I frequently insert DJ's? I wasn't aware of this until MB. It is a trait that I must work on, because I seem to have a MILLION ways to insert them during the course of a day. I just thought they were opinions! It didn't matter if WH agreed or not. Since WH began reading "the little purple book", he has begun to point the DJ's out to me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Each day this week has been a good one. I haven't had the need to silence the "people in my head" quite as much. For me, this is so very difficult.

JustLearning and Mr. Good.....cerebrally, I know I must venture over to the Recovery Board...I think I'm afraid to leave here. Does that make sense at all? I want very much for my M to be in recovery... I think I'm afraid to leave here. Does that make sense at all?

I want very much to be in recovery...I'm a little weepy now at the prospect. Our graduates would often act out and sabotage their academic performance just before it was time to graduate...They had fears of the unknown. They didn't feel ready to make the next transitional step. They didn't feel confident that they had learned enough to succeed.

I was always the teacher that sat with them and let them voice their fears. I held their hands and gave them that final nudge...a little push....a gentle little "You can do this."

Now just look at me. It is my turn. I'm afraid to hope and move to the other side of this. I think I'm going to need a little push.

Hi Married,

Glad you found an MC who is firm but gentle. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Great first step....others will follow.

More to come. I've been up nearly 40 hours (almost) straight, but I'll check in later.

Ace

Hello All!

I just wanted to address a few comments made by my friends. I don't seem to be able to keep my posts short and I didn't want to bore anyone unnecessarily. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Pepperband, , thank you for the video reference! I watched it and I so agree! Infidelity should really be against the law! The casualties and repercussions can destroy families and ruin countless lives. The lies, the secrets.....Let me just say that I will order this video that I would never have discovered without your assistance!

Reprobatemind, I do so wish I had the opportunity to have had you in my class! You are so delightful and you make me smile (sometimes you even make me spit while drinking! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) I refuse to indulge in ageism anymore...You are wise beyond your years and I will not refer to your youth again...Such a scamp....Such a whippersnapper.... Is that the same as being the modern voice of youth and vitality? Thank you for your vote of confidence. I really have learned a few new tricks. The best part? I've incorporated these "tricks" into my private repertoire! Heck! Didn't George Foreman and Jane Fonda have a second shot?

DH59, I have read your story after you responded to my post. You sound so sincere...I'm sure we would have been friends. After I read that you had no SF for 15 years, I just sat here for a minute thinking. Have you met my dear friend, JustLearning? Boy, oh boy, would he have GIVEN IT TO YOU!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> No, maybe he would not have...You said you had medical problems, so maybe he would have let you off with a simple reprimand. After all, my case was different. I discounted my H's EN. I'm STILL stinging over JustLearning's comment that I would not like to beg to go shopping! Oh yes, he also told me my WH could have asked for a divorce! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Those few sentences from April still rumble around in my brain today, because I knew instinctively that JL was right.....AGAIN !

Your poor and dear grandmother...I find her absolutely charming and your story DID make me laugh out loud. Hmmm... Karma Sutra? Did I mention that I am VERY flexible? Years and years of dance and yoga! Thank you for the reference!

Ace! In real life, I think we would have been friends too. Thank you as always, for checking on me. You mention that you and WH enjoyed frequent SF? My! What the heck did he finally say his most necessary EN's were? He still had energy and enough imagination for the OW?? My WH had financial-something-or-other in his top needs, right after SF. I will tell you, that EN questionnaire was an eye opener for me. I will never really understand men. I STILL think my WH fudged on his questionnaire....Oops....Another DJ!

I am pleased to meet you, Mr. Goodstuff! Any graduate of JustLearning's teachings is just fine in my book! To be in recovery for three years is just so wonderful! This is a milestone that I want to secure for my M. I think...No, I know we can do it. I just doubt it from time to time. My WH is not as familiar with the MB principles as I think he could be. I am still trying my very best to learn them for myself. The professor is proving to be a very, very slow learner. He has said that he is willing to learn, but that it is not easy for him.

Mr. Goodstuff, I love your name and I too want my WH to be "double goo-goo." We are moving rapidly in some areas of recovery, but much more slowly in others. I would appreciate your input very much and I thank you from the depths of my heart, in advance.

JustLearning, I seem to always save my comments to you for the very last. I am so grateful. I think you know I am...My eyes well with tears now, for no particular reason and I really can't explain why.

JL, I am trying very hard to have confidence in myself. I am trying mightily to believe in my own "female force." Each day seems to improve...I don't improve by leaps and bounds. When I look in the mirror, I see...me. According to my "friends" and the friends of my children, I look "pretty good for 55." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

JL, it is true. I know this. I think I am saddened to recall all of those missed opportunities for a more meaningful marriage. All of those years of smiling and loving each other, but NOT meeting each other's needs. I used to be so vibrant and alive. The professor was a hunk!I watched my weight, exercised and kept up with fashion, without being ridiculous. We could have guarded our M so much better than this. I know the OW was a symptom of our problems....I suppose it's easier to look at her, than to look at WH or myself. I am trying so hard to kick her out of my head!

Before you clobber me, let me assure you that I know there is time to reflect and repair. We are ready to step it up and get this relationship in gear. I only thought of the passage of time just today.

If I had only known to put my tutu on earlier, I probably wouldn't be here at MB. It is much more complicated, I know this too. I am listening, reading, thinking and learning. There is so much to know. So much has changed in my life in such a short time.

JustLearning, before I leave JFO, I have just decided that I am going to buy you a car. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

You deserve it...I appreciate you so much.

Married!,

First, I, like many others, enjoy your writing so much that you never need to apologize for long posts. I always know that I'll probably laugh out loud WITH you at one time or another.

Just took a nap and it's good to see you post twice in one day and also on Pep's video thread. Haven't seen that video yet, but I will check it out. (I don't make internet purchases either....you're not alone.)

Gotta try to keep awake now so I don't get totally discombulated on my sleep cycle after my massive work project.



Many MBers have met, so it could happen one day. I would be honored to be your real life friend. I was a dance coach, too. Quit dancin' and gained 80 pounds though. Ironically it was after I lost 40 of those 80 that WH had his EA. Go figure! But we're gonna take dance lessons together soon. (And I've nearly lost all of the final 40 pounds since D-Day #1.)



Like most guys, his need for 'significance and dignity' (aka "admiration") was very high (#2) but I gave him the opposite while OW heaped both on him via their fantasy. The intriguing part is that our top two ENs (SF and Admiration)were switched. The difference led to his EA. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />



I think that the entire EN concept is the most unique component of the MB solution. It helped us begin to find reasons for our 32 year detachment.



My WH changed his ENs often.....as his fog dissapated they stabilized. Your WH was probably as honest as he could be 'for the moment' which, as we've seen, can change drastically and suddenly.



I saw the JFO as GTO (do they still make those kinds of cars) and laughed out loud doubly with this off the wall comment. You are too freakin' hilarious, Married. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Hope to see you on the Recovery board soon. Check out my "Trials and Smiles" recovery thread and the thread your name inspired that JL recently posted to. I've been so busy with my work project, I haven't even checked on my recovery thread lately so it might have slid off the pages somewhere. If you follow through with JL's car, I wanna go for a ride, too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> LOL

Ace

P.S. Thank you for the exclamation point after my name. Since Admiration is my top EN, whenever someone mentions something I've written it makes my heart soar. Not sure why, but that "!" means alot to me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

the sexiest thing a wife can bring to the marital bed is

enthusiasm and eye-contact

one of the most revealing marriage books I have ever read is Schnarch's book

Passionate Marriage

it is NOT a how-to-kama-sutra-positions manual

It will not be a comfortable easy read for you .... but you will find out how sex IS the crucible in marriage

which explains it's importance
and why

eyes-open enthusiasm is key

PS

I wholeheartedly recommend you read this book

buy your own copy

keep a highlighter nearby, you will need it

PS (again)

and, in Passionate Marriage you will read why "youthful sex" is nowhere as sexy-intimate as elder sex <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

and this will give you

hope
courage
and a challenge !!!!!!!!

Hi, I finally found a situation at least in age similar to mine. And this site has men responding explaining how they think and I need to hear that. I have had a relationship with Joe for over 22 yrs, 9 of those married. Second marriages for us both. He is 62, I am 58. Two years ago I left the town I had lived in for 35 yrs, a job I liked and moved an hour away because all we did was fight and I hated his drinking and did not want to look at him anymore or felt we were destroying each other.So instead of doing the same dance, I changed it. We had gone to counseling a few years prior and he quit, I followed rules by not being sarcastic or critical (which is a fault of mine) and we did well for 8 mos. It was great-then we stopped going (my fault-naive enough to think we were "cured") and fell back into our old pattern. My husband supported my move, we agreed to work on marriage from a distance, I naively thought once again that he would realize his loss, get his act together and rescue us. I sometimes think I live in a fantasy world. We had always had great sex, that part of our life was good, sometimes ED on his part because of fatigue, age, drinking but most of time great. I know this is going to be long but bear with me, I need the input. Anyway, so I move, hate my new job, miss friends, miss him and think what have I done, better to be with him drinking than alone. He continues to see me off and on, even suggests things I have always wanted him to do to come back but I could not move at the start of a new job (teaching) and probably really hurt his ego by saying "too little-too late kind of thing"- during this period he also loses a very good job and drinks even more and begins suffering PTSD from Vietnam 35 yrs ago. So I know he hit rock bottom and I really never understand how a drinker thinks. It seems like under the influence they speak the truth accorded to married for 30 yrs but yet Joe says it really isn't how you feel. So now getting to the point, after 2 mos of staying connected with me at a distance, he begins being angry and refuses to see me, hangs up, etc and I drive to his place to confront, avoids me, just ugly. Finally one time he does pay a visit and we have sex, says he is sorry for avoiding me and will work on marriage. Then by a phone call I find out 2 wks later he has been seeing someone for almost the two months he was avoiding me and she is 42 and a pretty easy target. I know her vaguely, we were from a very small town. He has know her since she was 12 and a good friend of her brother's. She is not all that attractive, I really was/am for my age now and so is he. I was totally devastated, thought I would die, yada, yada, as we all have. After I drive down and confront her and him, he ends it easily enough, said it never meant anything, had ED problems with her, only had sex twice, was lonely, drinking, angry at me for leaving and wanted to get even, never stopped loving me and still did. This was almost 2 yrs ago, he quit drinking, moved in with me and has been the man I always wanted him to be. My questions are- why could he have not done this before he decided to see this woman (he had hired her sons to work for him and would pick them up and drop off so had opportunity to hang around and visit-that is no big deal, they knew each already, but why does sex have to follow, especially if you are with a stranger and experience ED-is that not humiliating and if she was not all that into sex, just wham bam kind of girl, I really get into myself) I was also available anytime for sex if that was what he needed and I was disease free, he risked sleeping with something that slept around frequently. I have lost my thought, but why risk all that and that I might have divorced him as my friends advised instead of forgiving and trying to make it work. Other question-why am i still obsessing over it now, we also went to counseling again and she said "get over" move on, he loves you. I just feel like when the "****** hit the fan" so to speak, he had to make a choice and until that time he had his cake and eat it too thing and he realized I was the better deal, financially self sufficient, she had no money, he was out ofjob (now works very hard) and just cannot accept that he really loved/loves me or he would not have done this and he says if I really loved him I would not have moved and left him. To you men out there, do you understand what he went through, I don't want to make excuses for what he did, just want to understand it and accept it. thanks for taking the time to read.

Hello Lindysue,

I've taken a liberty to repost your questions on your very own thread. Here is the link:

Help for Lindysue

Good luck,

Mr. G

Thank you for the compliment. And I don't believe I have had the 'pleasure' of JL's wisdom in any of my posts. Reading his posts on other threads has been rather helpful, though. Perhaps he thought I was a lost cause, as I didn't really follow MB plan to the letter. Just muddled through really, with a few MB guidelines thrown in when I could, but we're getting there.


I'm afraid you've lost me now. I can't remember mentioning my grandmother anywhere!

I did mention the Kama Sutra though. And this brings me on to Pepperband's posts about the Schnarch book. I took a look at it - available from Amazon UK - and it looks like yet another one to add to the arsenal, methinks. Not that the KS book was the only one I was going to rely on. It was merely that, in relation to my medical issues (one of which is difficulty reaching the 'Big O'), I read that trying different positions would help. The menopause isn't helping here, either, but H is rather considerate in this matter. Shall we say he has never been a 'wham bam, thank you mam' type of lover. Probably why OW took such a shine to him. She had never met a man with such consideration, apparently.

Take care.

DH59,

I just noticed that your D-Days are similar to 2 of mine. Also, I saw you must have edited to Kama from Karma Sutra.....I dunno, maybe there's Karma involved with what could be called 'sex pretzelization' <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />.

Hey Married, How's it going?

Ace

Hi Married. I know you mentioned that you have children (a S18)...how does he feel about what is going on?

One of my friends just told his children recently (D21 and S19) about an A he was having and his plans to go into a DV with his XW (their mother). He wanted to come clean, but now his children refuse to take his calls and answer his IMs. The OW he is with is in her 30s (my friend is 53); I guess it doesn't make anyone feel any better --- least of all his kids.

I hope your S18 is getting as much support as you are (judging from the number of people who have responded to your plea for help)...or that he has been strong enough to be your beacon through this trying time. He needs you, too.

In the meantime...try not to be too hard on yourself...you've been a good W, and have only been reacting to the things that are happening to you. If you want the M to work, though, you'll have to try to keep your words in check...it's always harder to take very hurtful words back.

Lots of luck.

Married,

You said many things I thought I would discuss briefly.
Ah yes the DJ's you do realize that they are the most deadly of all love busters? Why? because we often don't realize we do them, and we often act on them. Your counselor sounds good.

I see you recoverying and healing, and I hope your H is as well.


Excellent, but remember they call this the "rollercoaster" for a reason. So hang on and keep doing as you are. You are doing very well. You have no idea how proud of yourself you will be in a year. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


I guess it makes sense, but if you think you are getting rid of us by going there, your NUTS Lady. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> You can run but you cannot hide. I do think that admitting you are in recovery is a hard thing to do, because it means you are setting aside your pain, and using forgiveness to guide you all the while not sure your H deserves it. His time is coming when he will have to help you as you have helped him and this marriage.

I will say that as you two recover YOUR biggest problem is very likely to be his guilt and remorse. The WS often to really starts to feel it as the marriage recovers and they realize what they almost tossed away with their foolishness.


Only have one thing to say: No guts, no glory. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You also said a few other things.
What you don't understand is the pleasure and joy I and others her get by seeing someone recover and rebuild their marriage. The gift is seeing you and your H become happy and successful.


Oh, trust me at 55 you are a powerful person and your H sees it and feels it. Heck you are just reaching your prime. You are both now retired, you can focus on each other, how to make a life together, the pleasures in life you both have earned. Young lady you should enjoy it, savor it, and go for it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Married, there is nothing as sexy as a mature woman that knows what she is doing, and how to do it. You are alive and you can be vibrant. I used to read a lot of poetry, but what I am going to say is based on things I learned 40 something years ago. There is a poem that was a favorite of mine because my father and his friends could quote it verbatim AFTER they had too much to drink...they were all combat pilots from WWII and beyond. It was the Rubyiat of Omar Kiam (sp). Basically, it said "eat, drink, and be marry for tomorrow it may well be over. There was a response by Tennyson I beleive called "Rabbi Benezzura (sp)" Which starts "Come along with me for the best of life is yet to see." or something close to that.

I always felt and still do that both poets got it right. And I think if you reflect on it, what you have before you an OPPORTUNITY to get it right and really enjoy your future.

I must go, but please think about these things and look up those poems and see how bad my memory is after all of these decades, not to mention my spelling.




Just remember you may only have tomorrow so make the best of it, but you may have another 30 or 40 years so plan on making them good ones as well.


"Regrets I have a few..." Sinatra

But, learning from them will make your life richer go for it.


Now we are talking! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />, but please note what I said earlier. You and your H making your marriage better, more rewarding, more fun, and more open will be reward enough, but what this will cost you is that you must come back and help others.

God Bless,

JL

I think it must have been the A season at that time!! It appears that wherever I look there are people mentioning A anniversaries around these dates.

I noticed my 'karmic' mistake when I picked up the book the other night, as I had a funny feeling I'd spelt it wrongly. After editing my post, I noticed that Pep had written it correctly.

'sex pretzelization' - I like that one.

Hello to My MB Friends!

I am checking in to report my progress....To quote Sinatra, as JL points out "mistakes, I've made a few......"

My WH and I have completed our first MC session with our religious counselor ( MC #2) and it didn't occur a moment too soon. My WH and I had a horrible two days, because of a DJ I had made.

Once again, I interpreted HIS affair through MY OWN eyes. Wrong! We were on a very crooked and treacherous path for a bit. I recognized the DJ, but I was gripped by them. I didn't seem to be able to "hear" what my WH was saying.

Well, I heard him just fine. He just wasn't saying what I wanted to hear! He wasn't using the language that I would have used. My WH is not a man that wastes words and he never has been. Me? I like the words, darn it!!!

I wanted to hear more than, "Married, I'm so sorry." "Married, I love you and I always have....You are STILL so beautiful to me."

I'm ashamed to admit this, but it just wasn't enough.... I heard the word STILL and I interpreted it to mean something LESS.

It was the message that I keep hearing when people say "You STILL look good for 55." I hate the word STILL, when it is used in this manner. I have always considered it to be a "backhanded compliment."

The MC sat there looking at me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Ever so gently he said, "Married.......?" "Are you saying that you take no comfort in those words?" The MC and my WH both looked at me as though I had three eyes and I was suddenly sheepish. I had to bite my tongue and lower my eyes, because I knew I was thinking:

"No....I don't just want to hear the words, I'm sorry. I want to hear something along the lines of: "What was I thinking ? I have destroyed you....I have ripped your heart to shreds....I had an absolutely wonderful wife and I never should have let those skanks invade our marriage."

My WH sat there in that little office and told the MC, "You see, she wants ME to talk like SHE does." "She wants me to crawl into HER brain and dredge up the exact same words that SHE would use....I just can't do that." "Everything I say to her just comes out wrong."

And so, this point was discussed and I recognized that I was guilty of wanting this man to abandon a portion of his essence. I used to love the fact that he was a man of few words. I loved him and every tiny nuance of his. I had loved the way he took his time to answer reflectively. I now think he's just stalling for time!

I have stopped trusting and believing in him. The MC assured me that this must take time and of course I know this. Many positive elements arose in that MC session. We had to stop at one point in the session to pray, because I just sat and sobbed for a minute or two. The MC asked my WH if he thought he could put his emotions on paper. He is not to mention the A, but to speak of his love for me. My WH is to write me a love letter!

I haven't had a love letter since he was away in college. He used to write and I haven't had a sweet missive from him in 30 years. I can't resist this last LB for today...He sent the little OW over 35 loving emails. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Today, my WH is working in his cubicle in the den. Michael McDonald's music is playing softly and he is writing my love letter! He came to the door to tell me that he is redrafting and I should get it by........NEXT WEEK....sigh.

Seriously, I can wait. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> And so, until I get my letter, I am posting the link to the poem that JL has brought to my attention.

http://www.okonlife.com/poems/

It is absolutely lovely. Thank you, JL. How did you know? How could you have known? You are such a wise, wise man.

Married,

And just prove that my age is catching up with me, here is "Browning's poem" Rabbi Ben Ezra. It was clearly getting late when I posted <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Browning

Enjoy,

JL

Married,

I'm thrilled to hear you are doing so well! I'll continue to pray, and to visit your thread. You have some lovely guests at this party! Well dear, I'm a poet so I just have to throw my .02 in and speak up for the contemporary bards. See this link to "if everything happens that can't be done" by ee cummings: http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/if-everything-happens-that-can-t-be-done/

ahopefulone,

Alright, now we are talking. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It is truly ashame that poetry is not taught more in school. In the hands of a skilled poet so many deep emotions can be adequately expressed and passed on. Sadly, I don't have that skill, but honor those that do.

I happen to like ee cummings as well, but really favor some of the older poets. However, I also really like Ogden Nash. My father carried one of his poems in his wallet most all of his life, through WWII, Korea, Nam, and on. It is really a depression poem but really holds to this day.

Now you know where I learned to appreciate poetry. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I hope that your situation is improving.

God Bless,

JL

JustLearning, Do you remember what poem he carried? That is an incredible story! I memorized poems for the same reason, so I can keep them with me. I love the older poets as well; Christina Rossetti, 'Remember Me' is a beautiful Italian sonnet, I think you might really enjoy that. Warmest regards to you.

Hey Married,

Today is my one year anniversary of D-Day #1.

We made it! (But I'm struggling.)

The recovery rollercoaster is a little less bumpy after a year but the bumps still smack vulnerable places.

One of the things that kept me busy while my teacher H and his teacher OW were carrying on their illicit contact, having phone sex, etc. was MY helping to care for HIS ailing mother. She died this week so things were a bit hectic, but have slowed a bit.....and I have a new void so I'm checking in with my MB friends.

How are things with you and the professor? Hope to hear from you soon.

Ace

Hey Married,

You said your MC session went well and that you and the professor have homework:



I know your misery. During our sessions with our first MC (that WH was lying to while we paid $150 hr. for that lovely privilege <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> ), I actually brought a 3-ring binder with hard copies of all the pages of loving 'soul-mateish' emails WH wrote to that OW.

Then I showed MC and WH the few short 2-3 line paragraphs WH struggled to write to me...even forced himself to write to me.....after D-Days 1 and 2.

Neither could explain why but MC said that WH should try to "kick it up a notch in the romance writing" dept. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Later I learned that the alien fog creates an extended personality, often doing things (long emails and long phone conversations and wired flowers, etc) that are out of character.

If I had my druthers, I'd rather have the alien-free version, even if it means he doesn't write long emails. (He says that he only logs on to do work related research now because writing emails reminds him of that OW and she is a 'nothing' to him now.)

I used to argue that they are not necessary because he tells me what he would write in person and on the phone. While this may be true, I would still love long messages and cards often. But I'll be patient <sigh> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

BTW. my 'long stem rose gallows' (where I hang them to dry) has been full since Valentines Day, so I can't complain. And we talk for hours on the phone without him putting the receiver down in boredom as he used to do with that OW. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> AND....he did write long letters of commitment and apologies after D-Days #3 and #4 without my asking him to. I treasure them, but still long for more....something to look forward to as we heal, I guess. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

How are things going with you and the professor?

Ace

To Ace, could you tell me about that "alien fog" I saw that referred to somewhere else, how did you learn about that, I have not read it anywhere else. It makes sense as my husband called HER morning, her lunch break, smoke break and when she got off, you could set your watch by it, never, ever called me during day in 9 yrs of marriage to just chat! Totally out of character and he usually does that kind of thing when drinking and he did not start drinking until 5 so the alien behavior makes sense, would just like to read more about that. Thanks, Lindy

Lindysue,

I posted on your GQII thread where you asked for Lousygolfer to shed some 'wayward' light on your sitch. He must be gone for the holiday.

If you have any other questions, email me. Click on my name and you will be linked to my profile where my email addy is.

Hope that helps,

Ace

P.S. Hey Married....how ya doin?

Well, here I am back from the grave. I've been busy lately prosecuting the innocent and defending the guilty, as well as updating my diary on the emotional needs thread, which some have (falsely) accused me of being homo-erotic. Bunk, I say.

While others can give much better advice than I can, It makes me very happy that I can make you smile. It really gave me a rather twisted, visceral thrill that I can make a 55-year-old-tutu-wearing-kama sutra-reading woman spit her drink out. This, surely, is one of my life's crowning achievements, so I think I can die happy now. Its the mental image that really tears me up! I like making people smile. I LOVE making you smile, because you need it. Just make sure that whatever drink you spit out isn't Glenmorangie 18-year single-malt. That's just wrong.

Keep up the updates in the marriage counseling. If you had me in mind for monetary distributions to any inheritance you might get, contact me. In fact, just send me the check. I'll take care of everything. You can trust me, I'm a (in-training) lawyer! :-)

You probably did have me in class at some point. I was the kid who sat in the back wearing his sunglasses, laptop open watching, um, stuff, and drinking out of a thermos. Coffee, of course. I think I remember you now. You used to get mad at me every time I would snicker when you talked about the Penal Code. Then you would get mad when I would snicker when you talked about a lawyer's taint following him/her around from firm to firm. hehehehe.

Per the post about adultery and how it should be illegal, check this out. Let me know if these two links don't work. NO, don't get your hopes up. There is no way in ****** a DA would ever prosecute on that. Even if he did, the judge would sit REAL uncomfortable in his chair. A police officer testifying would look kind of pale and sweaty in his uniform.

http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=69410

http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=69411

I have to say, I think you were all taken in by some mighty fine fiction writing -- but this made one heck of a story!

Hello To All MB Friends!

You should all have guessed that I had not been following MB principles, when you hadn't heard from me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Well, that is not entirely the case......The professor and I have been doing pretty good, actually!!!! We are seeing both counselors and it has been helpful. It seems the professor has found his voice.

As we sit with each counselor he seems to be able to "see" more clearly. I can't bury him in dialogue and he can't hide from me. I did share that the professor has some rotten branches in his family tree of infidelity. Of course, we both knew...but we didn't quite make the connection to our own marriage. I think the biggest disclosure was the revelation that our marriage and his parents' were both so similar. On some level, maybe I knew that too. Heck, three months ago, I thought it was a good thing!

I used to think this was a positive characteristic. Well, it isn't. My FIL was a devoutly religious, kind, sweet and gentle MUTE CHEATER too. He was reflective and wallowing in his own guilt. Both counselors have touched on this, but the religious counselor has not gone into depth on the subject. This will be very hard for my WH, because he both loved and idolized his dad.

The reading material that counselor #1 gave to us caused an argument (plenty of LB's before I MADE myself stop!) while we waited in the lobby. It seems our signals were crossed and the counselor thought we cancelled due to yesterday's holiday. I had burning questions for the professor that I had been "saving." This of course was a mistake!

The professor wasn't having it. I didn't pose the questions so that they didn't sound like the inquisition of D Day #1 and 2. I was wrong, but I haven't admitted this yet. We tabled the conversation, but I started back up as soon as we got into that tiny car. I finally shut up long enough for us to arrive home SAFELY....but I didn't get to continue, because my WH started to talk like the original "Chatty Cathy Doll."

I am still stuck on the betrayals (Telling the OW everything I had said and done...Leading her to our home). He doesn't have any answers, except to say that he was being "selfish." This was the first time that he's admitted this aloud. This may not seem like a grand admission to anyone else, but it is HUGE for him! I truly felt that this was the first time I had heard this. Now, don't get me wrong! I had plenty of other things that I thought he should have admitted as well....but that would involve a few DJ's wouldn't it?

I was finally able to table the conversation for the day. I didn't sulk and he didn't clam up. This is new behavior for both of us. I promise you, this is the only real heated discussion since my last post. I am doing better. We are doing better. Today, I was both optomistic and anxious for a new day.

My life is changing before my eyes and appearing to be someone else's. Does SF count if I believe it is a form of hysterical bonding? I shared this concern with the professor and he does not care. His exact wording escapes me, but it was something along the lines of "I don't care what you call it, just as long as I get to answer." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I realize that THIS pace can't continue, because one of us is sure to be dead one fine morning....Pepper, I did get the book, "A Passionate Marriage", but I must confess that it isn't a book I can breeze through. You warned me! I am also reading "Not Just Friends" for the second time. I'm trying to keep all of this information straight! We HAVE to get it right this time out, because I couldn't bear to be the only 85 year old woman on this site.

We are going to the Cape for a week to reconnect! I did receive my sweet love letter and our little trip is a direct result, I think. We had planned for the trip in advance, but now the focus has changed. I am actually looking forward to all of that lovey dovey action! I haven't been away from the MB site for an entire week before, but I think I will be fine.

Lindysue, I have not responded to you, but I do want to say that all is not lost...My WH sent his little OW over 35 emails and too many texts and calls to count. There are truly wise people here... This is where we should both be.

Ahopefulone, I have never told you thank you. You were so kind and encouraging to me when I was just trying to breathe and think. I thought I was actually dying. You guided me to JFO for more help, when I thought no one would, or could help me. You saved my life. You were my internet angel.

ACE!!!!!!!!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I'm so happy you got your letter too! I tried to read your entire smiles and Trials thread, but I must confess I'm behind. My goodness, woman! You have a million threads that you contribute to! I love that about you. You are the MB social chairperson and that is truly admirable to me.

Reprobatemind, you rascal! Happy Birthday Old Timer! Your post made me laugh out loud this time (my mouth was empty). You would not have gotten away with a thing in my class. Reading inappropriate material? Sitting at the back? Wearing sunglasses in MY classroom? I. Think. Not.

JustLearning, you know what is in my heart and head most of the time, so wish me well this week at the Cape! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> I thank you for starting the poetry phase of this saga. I never, ever saw this day coming. Never, ever. I do hope to see you on the Recovery portion of this site. I began to read there last week, but it is scary. There is still so much pain over there, isn't there? Still...I'll be checking in. Actually, I'm rather looking forward to it now.

Edited to add:Finetoapoint, I only wish the crap that has happened to me in the past three months had been a bad dream or fiction! I wouldn't want this much pain and utter stupidity to occur in anyone's actual life. I really wouldn't.:(

Hi Married,

So glad you posted. Finetoapoint had a point, which was accentuated when we hadn't heard from you for awhile.

A poster named Aph mentioned that there are stories of some people who fake recoveries on forums like these and no one but God would ever know. I guess that is the risk we all take with our time......we never know if we are helping someone or contributing to someone's weekly entertainment.


During my first week, Chrisner 'accused' me of being "the most upbeat person in Betrayedville". That gave me a reputation to uphold...well...uh....actually~~~~> the truth? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I have no clue what to say to help people most of the time, so I just encourage as best as I can to bump threads sliding into oblivion like my first thread did 5+ months ago.

Gotta go to work but I'll check back in over the weekend. Again, it's good to have your update. I needed a "laugh-out-loud" start to this day. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ace

P.S. I may have a million posts (actually only 1000+) but you have over 4000 views to your thread in only 3 months! Former posters are hearing about you through the grapevine and actually checking back in to MB just to read your thread. May I have your autograph? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

yes
it counts

hysterical bonding <~~~ pretty accurate

in the early days (daze) I had wild angry sex ... but it left us bonded nonetheless

Hi Ace!

I am going to bed! I have been up packing, doing laundry and pushing junk into the basement. I haven't capped your straight 40 hours without sleep, but I feel close to it!

My feelings were hurt by the above poster. So now you tell me that people make up recovery stories? He!!, recovery is hard enough to do...Who has time to make up stuff?

There are constant times during the day, when I just have to sit down and think about what has happened. Maybe my writing style makes it seem as though it has not been so bad for me, but that would be so, so untrue. I have tried my best to smile and be pleasant my entire life, to hide pain. I wouldn't suggest it. This will be examined in counseling too. This affair hurt me in many ways, more than the death of both of my parents and that's the honest and gut level truth.

I shake my head in disbelief at the completely silly way I conducted myself in this marriage. Naivete...Arrogance (I really THOUGHT I had a good marriage...I mean....People admired and envied us, didn't they)? No, it wasn't a good marriage. There were two people in it, who really were not taking care of each other. Such a simple concept that went COMPLETELY over my head. Even now, it's embarassing.

My struggle? I am somewhat stubborn. To a fault. I have heard from counselor #1 (the green socks and sandals guy), counselor #2 (regular mc) and #3 (the religious counselor), that I am not to concern myself with the OW at this point in recovery. I just can't get that Jessica Rabbit vision out of my head of the OW. She wasn't bad looking at all...she was rather tight and muscular....really just kind of steroidy in appearance. The problem for me still revolves around my esteem issues....

Everyone here has said the same thing....The OW was just the "fallout" and yes, I know it...But still. I will be having a pretty good day with my WH and I will think of that computer and those emails. My recovery is being hampered, because I keep going downstairs to read and reread her nasty message to me. No one has ever talked to me like that in my entire life. It's hard for me to read it, but I am drawn to that nasty little note of hers.

Another secret? I keep trying to recover, or undelete those 32 emails my WH wrote to her.. I have 3 that he didn't delete and they torture me. Why would I want to do this to myself? I just don't have the answer to that. It's just a little too ill.

Both counselors have told me in the presence of my WH to stop. They have both told me that I can't keep stepping back into that moment....but it's so hard for me to do! I seem to have an ocd situation with this piece of it. It's almost as if I think those deleted messages are going to tell me something that is going to make everything that has happened, crystal clear.

My questions to my WH are varied, but all roads lead back to the OW and my deep sense of betrayal. I never in a katillion years would have thought my husband would do such a thing. If you knew him, you would have doubted my truthfulness regarding this affair...not his.

This recovery is hard. Every day I must battle the LB's and DJ"S and for me, that is SO DIFFICULT!!!! I have spent most days with my WH, as we have sorted through over 30 years of teaching materials. I haven't figured out how to post a quick note, so there didn't seem to be enough time to do everything. I'm still logging in my 15+ hours with the professor! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Maybe it seems like we are riding off into the sunset. Maybe it seems so very much like a Lifetime Movie of the week....But it is my life. It is my life. If I had an opportunity to do things differently.....I am going to be here at MB. Who else would understand? It's happening to ME and even I don't understand it all!

I look at all of those numbers by my post and let me tell you Ace....It kind of creeps me out to know that there are so many of us that have been hurt. I searched and searched to find someone else who had a situation similar to mine. My depression grew after week 1, because there were a few teachers' stories, but no one's seemed to be as ugly as mine.

No one here seemed to have an OW that was as immature and evil as this one. No one here had the memory of their home violated. No one had an OW that had a house full of kids who left them to put a note in the wife's mailbox! No one seemed to have a WH like mine!

Only very recently did I realize that the professor's A wasn't so special and neither was my pain. This Affair World is full of skanks and horror stories. Mine is only one of them in the "Naked City."

I WANTED someone else to be able to see the "real picture" after a while. I needed to tell the truth. I needed to vent and air the sordid details. Was I still embarassed by it all? YES. Did I still need to come here? YES. This board was all that I had.

Understand : The man was almost "done"! He had a stellar career! And THEN you sleep with a student? It sounded nuts to me then and it still sounds nuts. I never expected to be here. I didn't even know such a place existed, but I am so grateful today. I'm trying so hard. If I could have clicked my heels and made any of this crap just disappear.....I still wish none of this had ever happened to us.

So, we're going to take our little vacation and try to reinvent something wonderful. My WH was never unkind or unloving toward me and that is still the case. Most of my days are pretty good and I really do need that in my life right now. I really, really do. I'll truly be able to relate to your Mr. Romance! I'll see you in R.

For you these letters and emails are in the present. I might suggest to you that, you are using them to help define “who your husband is”. They are terrifying and a horrible testament to a marriage you might have thought was indestructible. You are looking back into a recent past at those terrible events and attempting to make sense of a senseless act. Your introspections are very necessary to you as YOU must find the ways to rationalize how you can accept what has happened. But not any old rationalization will do, they must be powerful and grounded in truths that will last you a lifetime.

Where do you look for such things? There is only one place to look. You call on your life’s experiences, that body of knowledge that has shaped who you are and what you believe. In short, you are calling on your greatest teacher, the past. I might suggest to you that that is the source of your pain, i.e. the first thing you see as you look back is your husband who betrayed you. It is still fresh and new and most of all, it hurts and hurts bad, real bad.

You have both made the choice to attempt recovery. What happens as recovery progress, (as your husband and your recovery progresses)? One of the many things that happens is that loving exchanges begin to take place. They are mostly small things that may demonstrate that there is serious concern over the welfare of each. Perhaps your husband goes to extraordinary measures to insure that YOU know that he is acting to your benefit. Perhaps you hug him to let him know that you have confidence in him and the marriage. I imagine that there will be a great many promises, regrets and hope all in view of the betrayal that has taken place. The love bank was created to hold these items of love.

Here is the best part. Each deposit becomes an item of the past. And what is the past? “The past is our greatest teacher.” Each deposit is a layer that placed on top of the older layers. One of those layers includes “the betrayal”. Each day the betrayal is continually covered by new pages of history. When you look on to your body of knowledge to guide you, you will one day find that this body of knowledge tells you that your husband is an honorable man and devoted husband and you are no less. And when you ask yourself this question, “Who am I married to?” Your answer will make you grin with love.

That is what awaits you, if you have the courage to write new history. I suspect that your husband is waiting for you to join in writing that history. Oh yes, as for the “betrayal”, it is buried deep beneath volumes of love that you have each written until it has become “no longer relevant”.

Time and patience will serve you well.

Mr. G

I hate to interrupt but I think you and ParadiseBlue would get along well. Her H didn't stay, they ended up divorcing. BUT, she has the same eloquent way of expressing herself as you do. I believe you can find her thread just below yours.

Hi Married,

Hope you have/had a great little getaway.


Y'know Married, after reading about trolls, it crosses my mind that many may think I'm faking my Mr. Romance Saga. But many others have said it's inspired them, too. God knows it's true and I AM living it. So I understand your concern about the poster questioning your authenticity and sincerity, but it's really beside the 'point'. The fact that he/she appears to have registered just to make that 'point' decreases its impact, at least for me.


3 years ago when I turned 50, I actually sought info on 'how to separate legally' wishing that my H would do something to Biblically justify my getting out. I never told him that, of course, and obviously, I didn't need to. Even now, though, many would NOT believe me if I told them what my H has done. At times, he can't even believe it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />



That's only partially true in my view, Married. On the world's scale, it's very ordinary, but because it's happening to us, it's unique. At least for me.


How I wish I had found this board within the first 6 hours or even 6 weeks and not 6 months...or, as in princessmeggy's case...nearly 5-6 years. I had never been on any online social networking sources (chat rooms, games....etc) so I never thought to look online for help.

My H and I were reading "Not Just Friends" (refered by former MC) while H was secretly trying ----and succeeding---to 'just be friends' with that OW....for 6 more weeks. And she always asked him if he was sure I didn't know about their contact. That's ultimately how I think he saw her for what she was and that disdain for her eventually helped dissapate his fog.



I do, too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" /> But it did and now I am building towards being able to USE IT to help others.....somehow. Our MC says "don't be surprised if a year or 10 years from now, God sends someone to your doorstep who says 'I'm not sure why I'm here, but God told me you might know someone who may be able to help my spouse and me overcome our infidelity issues'." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

We've been rebuilding trust now for 4+ months....and that is not as farfetched a thought as it seemed when MC said it 2 months ago.

Married, Mr. Goodstuff hits the nail on the head, at least for me:


Let's re-write history. We both will survive with advice like this helping us limp up the recovery ladder.

Married, you mentioned you'll see me "in R". Your thread is one of the reasons I began reading the JFO forum and helping folks like Lindysue. Don't feel obligated to start a new one on the Recovery forum if you don't want to. In fact, having you stay here may bring more veteran posters back to JFO and remind them of the newbies who innocently post their first stories here.

You said that it's kinda creepy to realize how many may be reading....and it's intriguing to me how many obviously do not post for one reason or another. But I'll bet you'll be amazed at how many are inspired to keep seeking recovery based on what (and how) you share about your pain. Your writing style is definitely an asset here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Again, have a great vacation.

Ace

P.S. Feel free to write to me....anytime.....for any reason, even if it's just to vent. Addy is on my profile.

Ace,

To see how many have read a thread go to the main page of each section and you see how many have read the thread and how many have posted to the thread. The numbers can be staggering.

God Bless,

JL

Hi JL,

I searched my post to see what may have led you to share this:



All I could find was that you may have misinterpreted my sentence:



I can see how you might have thought I was asking HOW to find out HOW MANY were reading/posting. But I was commenting on the fact that over 4500 views means lots of readers are NOT posting a response for one reason or another. (Same thing happens on Marks Marriage/Fishing Thread on the Romantic Experiences forum.)

Thanks for your concern. BTW, your posts were some of the ones that impressed me when I was lurking (& contemplating registering) last January.

Ace

Hi Married, I just wanted you to know that you are not alone with the "obsessive crazies" of wanting to know what those emails contained. I have done the same only with cell phone, my husband did not have a computer or know how to use one. When I finally realized her home phone number and cell I looked them up on cingular online- had copies sent to me (as I had thrown old statements away never suspicious about them) highlighted all the calls, then even made a crude graph showing that he would call same time everyday and how often. I don't know what the calls said, it is probably better than being able to read emails. But seeing the calls made it "real" like I did not see you together but I see this and I could see when he started, when it got more serious and when it was winding down as he said it was pretty much over when I found out and the phone calls showed that pattern. So like Mr. G. said, we are still trying to make sense of why this happened and any clues we can uncover we will search for like bloodhounds.

The biggest eye opener for me and now I get confused with all these posts so can't remember if I wrote or not, is that my husband is passive-aggressive and is beginning to see it himself and I have been his enabler and made it worse (worse for me) and just reading and learning about that suddenly made sense why he did what he did. Know all are not PA so that might not help you at all but it did for me. I just could see the "big" pic and not all the little details like how big were her boobs, I was hung up on all that (and yes, I still dwell on it in my mind) but now I am finally beginning to see her my husband really was/is and who we are together, whether the MC can help us achieve a balance-time will tell or I accept things -but we both have a lot of changing to do. I do identify with your pain and obviously need to know all, I wrote down a list of about 75 questions for him to answer and he did, did it help, I guess, I know he did not care for her and that his passive behavior was let life happen to me, don't try to mend it with my wife -that would be too much effort and what she would have wanted, so just move on to someone less complicated and when he said he was going to end it, I doubt it, he was waiting for me to find out and "rescue" him as he knew I would. I have played the role of rescuer, victim, martyr for too long, that is how I have to change. I just hope I can. But this site has been a great resource. Thanks to you all.

I have not listed my info before
me-58
him-62
OW-42
affair lasted 2 mos
D Day Dec 16, 2005
We have grown children, none together

I wanted to add that I watched Dr. H's video on infidelity and the intensity of the pain, yes, I agree that it is more painful than when my dad died, I think because he was elderly and it is expected and that I had no control over it or it was not a betrayal of trust,etc. It was normal grief. I do disgree with Dr. about him saying one woman said it was worse than losing a child, I would much rather go through infidelity than lose a child. But the pain of infidelity is unbearable at first and the offender will never know. Kind of like trying to tell a man what it is like to have a baby, they will never know.

Lindysue,

Glad you're receiving the help you are seeking on MB. I have other "OW obsession horror" stories <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> but I don't want to list them here. Maybe we should start a new thread about that aspect.

How's it going, Married? Wondering about an update. Also, did you ever get your love letter your H was 'assigned' to write to you?

I just found the folder with ALL of mine that my H wrote from his heart. It's interesting that they seem to mean a lot more now since he has followed through for 6 months with what he promised. And it's getting better every day, week and month. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hope all's progressing and that you check in soon.

Ace

I just wanted to comment on one of Marrieds statements that she seems to almost have OCD at reviewing horrible emails, notes, etc.

I wanted to expresss that this is not something crazy or abnormal that you do. Recently, I've questioned what's brought me to this place in life. And I had to go back to my childhood and review the sexual abuse I was put through. I questioned did it really happen to me, was it really abuse? Was it something that should have as profound an affect on me as it has had? To this day I've recalled that old "Mental DVD" if you will and pressed play in my brain. The memories are still there, they don't go away. But why replay them, why review them? The same has happened to me with my wife's EA online. I review the chat logs in my brain, I no longer actually pull them up on my pc, but I review them on occasion.

I have found I do this because we innately want to just sweep these things into a bag called emotional baggage and forget them. But, we are designed the more we try to forget these horrible things the more we remember them.

Why? Why do we press that preverbial play button on horrible instances like this? Why do we have to relive 9/11/2001 every year? Why do we see the pictures of hurrican katrina every year? The truth is, in my opinion, that we don't believe it happened? In some ways, as we seek a life of normalcy, safety, security, and recovery from extreme hurts and pains, we want some type of affirmation that these things actually happened. They are so surreal and so horrible that it's almost to the point of this is too horrible to actually have happened. There's just no way that a trusted religious family member would force children that look up to them into sexual contact. There's no way someone you knew for 30 years would betray you for these horrible skanks. How could he? He would never do this. Yet, here we are, trying to fathom did they really do this?

It may be tied to the denial phase of our reality. We deny it happened, yet there's that play button, we hit it and relive it and realize once again that this is not just a figment of our imagination, it's not some Stephan King horror story, it's not some horrible news broadcast, it's actually our lives.

You're comment about your life being a Lifetime show really validates this. We see so much around us, but we have a really tough time believing that anything like that could happen to us.

When we get through the denial phase, then curiousity sets in, why did this happen, how did it happen. So we press the play button obsessively. Like searching a crime scene for clues. Why did someone I trusted and admired and was in the care of as a child use me for his twisted sexual perversion? We seek clues, understanding, and something to validate our feelings.

I normally just lurk and read until I have something to offer. I find it hard to come up with advice that's been better than anyone here. However, on this matter of OCD with our mental "Play" button, I have some insight.

I've taken it a step further as I've had time and years of counseling to assist in dealing with everything. The next step I took was tieing the abuse to how I ended up with the marrital issues I've had. With a WW, and none of my needs being met in the past.

I am just now figuring out how to set limits and bounderies. My bounderies and limits as a child were violated and never established. For most of my life I allowed people to walk all over me, bosses, coworkers, friends. I always wondered why most of my friends were egotistical, arrogant, and way smarter than me. Not somethhing someone with lowesteem needs. My entire life was filled with people that could treat me simularly to my abuser. It's what I was familiar with. I'm just learning now to stand up for myself, establish bounderies, express my opinions without fear. Express my emotional state without fear. Something I've never done in my entire life.

Anyways, what I'm trying to say is that a certain amount of playback is necessary for introspection. How do we define ourselves, as someone else mentioned, partially by our past, and partially by our core beliefs and values. When both may be in question about someone where do we go to define ourselves. We have to create new identities new lives for ourselves. That's what your H will be battling with. I know because that's what I'm battling with right now in my marriage. Who am I to my W. Who am I to myself?

Hi LL65,

Thank you for your insight into OW obsessive compulsive disorder behaviors. I think you raise valid identity issues:


I sent the packet of proof to the OW's H but kept the original cards, letters and email hard copies tucked away. My H knows I will keep them for at least 2 years but he does not want to know where they are. I even have audio and video tapes of D-Day #3 I pre-set near the computer before I typed in the email addy I had found 5 hours earlier. I have not listened to the 4 cassette tapes, but I did watch the 2 hour video, which amazingly clicked off into noisy auto-rewind immediately after I turned out the light when we left that room. (He had been surprised but had not complained when I flipped and switched the 30 minute tapes during the confrontation.)

I must admit, I obsess less as less as time goes on. Your insight helps me understand how and why this gripped me for so long. Being a typs A personality and with a bent for details, I figured my 'need to know' would help me. When I realized that I was inadventantly creating more triggers with my OCD, I forced myself to indentify WHY I want to know details that will only make our recovery more difficult. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I decided to focus on building faith and trust, not feeding my fears and paranoia. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

So far, I'm able to overcome my OW OCD......but I understand why it play(s/ed) a part in my reality introspection.

Thanks,

Ace

PS Hey Married, how ya doin?

Yo, married, where are you? Miss you!

Hi Ace, Reprobatemind and All MB Friends!

I’m in Recovery!

I’m on my way to MC with the professor in the next ten minutes. We met with our religious
counselor yesterday and I think I had a mini breakthrough in some vital areas. I hope to share
this when I return this evening.

Our trip to Cape Cod was both exhausting and relaxing, if that makes sense at all. I’m happy to
report that I didn’t execute one single LB or DJ during the entire week. That’s a phenomenal
record for me, as these have plagued my entire marriage....

Memories only began to stir during the flight home. They began to REALLY RAGE as we
turned the corner to reenter our neighborhood. I had vivid memories of that little OW vilifying
the home that I used to love. I have to really work toward erasing this memory from my disk,
because it returns to haunt me DAILY.

I’m out of here now. Hopefully, I’ll be able to post tonight, after our session. Your continued
thoughts and prayers for me and this marriage are so appreciated. Today, right at this minute,
I’m holding steady. I’ll see you in Recovery. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hi Married,

I have never posted to you before, but read this whole thread the other day and wanted to tell you that you are amazing.


I don't think I have seen anyone state that here before, but wanted you to know that for some reason, this always happens to me after my FWH and I travel somewhere. Especially in the early days, I was able to leave his A behind when we were away, but the thoughts always came rushing back as soon as we were on our way home.

I am so much like you, in the LB and DJ department that it is amusing to read your posts. I am slowly, you can see how long I have been at this based on my d-day, learning better self control.

I too think that my FWH had numerous A's during our M and maybe even before. I also don't believe that I will ever really know for sure. I think at this point, I would rather be at the point where I am fairly sure that he is done with that, but I also think that it will be a long time before I get there.

It's kind of odd how these realities seem to hit us when we are at a major turning point in our lives such as retirement. My d-day was 10 days following major surgery at a point where I was moving from a job I loved into the unknown of a new assignment.

I hope that you are enjoying retirement. I will be retiring 13 months from now and am really looking forward to it.

Best of luck to you.

Who

Hi, Whome?

I just saw your post yesterdaybut it was hard to get back to you!

In regard to the trigger of returning home.....Yes, it hits me whenever we turn the corner. I asked the professor if he ever felt a 'twinge or any bad memories" when we round the corner. His answer?

"Well.....I think about it now and then, but I'm not going to let it stay in the forefront and ruin the good time that we just had."

Well....good for him, but that just doesn't seem to work for me. I keep looking for the OW and the car...I keep remembering how tragic that day was for me....I keep remembering how very old the professor looked to me that day, when his "sweet young thing" stood behind our garage, ready to 'kick butt." He looked even older when talking to the police officers a bit later. If I hadn't been so angry with him, I would have felt sorry. The man was aging before my very eyes.

When we went away for a short week-end excursion shortly thereafter, I was able to store away the memory, but as soon as we prepared to return home, the triggering began anew.

I don't know what to do about it. It has lessened, but it returns nevertheless. I really hate the feeling that this OW and the professor have hoisted something upon me without my consent. The idea that the two of them conspired and left me with these mental scars is taking some getting used to.

I do think we can make it, but sometimes a simple song will trigger me. While riding along this week, the old song, "Me and Mrs. Jones", by Billy Paul, came on the radio.

Well I used to hear this song a million times back in the '70's and never thought about it for a second! Let me tell you, the professor threw his head back and began to belt out the chorus: "Me and Mrs. Jones, we've got a thing going on....We both know it's wrong, but it's too_______________________________________to let it go. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

He looked over at me once he felt the chill in the car. I bit my tongue to keep the LB's inside of my mouth and glared at him. He simply leaned over and mumbled something before turning to another station. See? It's that sort of crap that just zooms me. Wouldn't you think this guy would have the good commom sense and decency, not to sing this particular song, from the top of his darn lungs?

It used to be so popular, heck I loved it too....as a naive 19 year old.....but it is NOW, the unofficial anthem of infidelity. Jeez....Shouldn't that have occured to him? How obtuse and totally clueless can one man be??????? If THAT is a DJ, then darn it, I'm guilty!

I need to figure out what to do about the triggers and I haven't read anything yet that has helped me.

I do keep reading that triggers are lessened over time and I have to believe that. I do believe it actually...but it's the present that I'm trying to face on a daily basis.

So, you are going to be a retiree? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> So far, I am in hog heaven. I am looking forward to the next chapter of doing more of what I want. I wish the same for you. The next 10 months are going to sail by.....the last 3? Not so much! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I am praying that we both will make it through this stuff that A's have visited upon us.

Hi Married,

I am so proud of you. You really are handling this beautifully and still keeping your sense of humor. I can not tell you the advantage of having MB to help. I was 15 months past d-day when I finally found this site and was barely holding on at that point.

I am much better now.


This is a pretty common sentiment around here for BS's. My FWH actually said to me at one point, "I didn't think you would care." DUH! BTW, we had similar issues regarding SF. I knew he wanted and needed more frequent SF, but I listened to women at my office who all seemed to have sworn off SF, so I thought that the lack of desire on my part was just the way things changed in a relationship over time.


Again, this is normal. It is like once you have experienced infidelity, either as a BS or WS, the world takes on a completely different look and feel. You see and hear things that never affected you before. Affairs were something that happened to OTHER people, but never to US.

You now see, that infidelity is EVERYWHERE, in novels, in movies, in music, on TV. Rarely do any of these mediums succeed in accurately portraying the agony, unhappiness and life changing devastation caused by something that is often even the subject of comedy routines or jokes.

Recovery is so hard to achieve and the passage is narrow, with many twists and turns and rough patches. Please remember that when you are having a bad day, tomorrow will probably be better. Enjoy those good days and steel your inner strength for the bad ones, because you have to accept that they are always around the corner, especially in the early days.

Your whole world has been changed forever, and it takes a long, long time to learn to accept that. I still don't like the change, but I have learned to accept what I can not change and try to build a better future.

My FWH and I had a set back a couple of months ago where it appeared that he might be contemplating beginning a new inappropriate friendship.

The result is that we are in counseling with Jennifer now and I honestly think he understands that there won't be another opportunity to recover for us. It is now and forever, or never. That has been a hard point for me to reach, but one that I have to live by now.

Good luck to you Married, don't ever forget that you have a great sounding board available for those difficult days ahead on your personal recovery journey. The path is well worn.

Best,

Who

I follow this post and the one How did my husband and I fall victim to adultery? I just posted on that one earlier and follow this one. Memories/reminders/connections- it is all there all the time. My husband and I went to a wedding where we previously lived and he had his affair-the OW was someone he had known for years and he was a good friend to her brother and all her family. So there at the wedding is not the OW but her sister (who reportedly was angry at my H for "using" her sister while married to me) sitting at the table next to us-my H goes over and talks to her like nothing happened and the sister was cordial enough to him, but the sister and OW favor and I sat there looking at her and thinking of the OW and how could he be so friendly knowing that it is painful for me, he did not need to ignore her but did not have to go out of his way to speak, I know they would have embraced him in their family as the answer to their prayers for their little sister (OW) to have him if he had divorced me because they all liked him-he is a very likable guy. Oh well, there will always be a connection to this event and it is a different world now.

Hi Lindysue,

Glad things are progressing for you. Married has a new recovery thread Forgiveness going I thought I'd link for you and others. I'm getting ready to update my "Trials & Smiles" thread (at her request) soon.

Ace