My W is planning on moving out soon (signing a lease on 04 May), reasons = "I'm not happy" and "I don't love you". I have been doing Plan A without the stick and not knowing it for over a month now, I think I have a stick but I'm not sure how to swing it. She was in a PA with a former good friend before our marriage. I found out about an EA a few months after we married and the birth of our only son (5 years ago). The EA was with a co-worker and she said that it was over when she found out she was prego. It resurfaced three years later in the form of a very sexually themed mucic CD, (it was all the OM, she had no intest in him). Now she wants to leave and has no interest in any counseling. Thoughs?

Is she a serial cheater? When you say she was in a PA with a former friend before your marriage, what do you mean? Was she married? Was the friend married?

Does she still work with her OM?

No, neither of the two were married but we were dating at the time. She told me that the OM did not work there anymore. I suspect that either he was replaced by another co-worker or it still active. I can't proove this, I think she has gotten good at hiding things after the CD came up.

I suspect that the OM was replaced because she talks about another man at work like she did with the previous OM, and there has been oportunity for a PA.
I went away for a year for military duty about 5 months after the discovery of the CD. It has been 6 months since I returned.
She is not receptive to hardly any of my Emotional support, they are either ignored or viewed as though I am making up for lost time. Too little too late type of thing.

NW:

Heres a thread to read that might be helpful:>> TB's struggle

There is also a thread by SickofLimbo>>> SoL's thread who is a military guy fighting for his marraige. That has some good stuff.

Sorry you have to be here. Your in the right place to fight for your marriage.

Thank you for your service. We can't say that enough.....

LG

Thank you, I owe SoL more than I can imagine right now.

I have a few questions.

1. Can I use the previous A's as ammo for a reveal? I would have to reveal over email and I'm hoping that her other co-workers may chime in with more ammo. If there is current evidence I think it would be on her work email/cpu, I have no access to that.
2. If she leaves, can she take the kid and household goods from the house with my approval? I know every state has differant laws. No legal paperwork has been filed and neither of us has seen a lawyer to my knowledge, (I know...I will).

I'm ready for action, I started looking inward two years ago and I am a much better person now than I was then. I only wish that I knew of MB then.

If she has moved on with her emotions more than once, it is going to be really tough to get her back. See a Lawyer ASAP, please.

How old is your child. You are absolutely sure it is yours?

She sounds hooked on infatuation brain chemicals.

Larry

He is 5 years old. It's funny you ask if he's mine. I first found out about the EA about 4yrs and 9mos ago. I got a call out of the blue from a female asking me if I knew who my child's father was. I thought, "What is this crazy person asking me?", of course I know who the father of my son is. She went on to say that I was lucky that my child wasn't black and hung up. Then the shock hit me. When I pushed the issue w/WW she admitted that she was guilty of "flirty emails" with this co-worker and that was it. She appologized and said that she stoped the emails when she found out she was prego. Fast forward three years and I find the CD. I confronted her and I think I really caught her off guard bcause she had no idea what to say and she knew that I noticed her reaction. She told me that the OM made the CD for her and she did nothing to encourage the gift. I kind of feel sick about this but after I confronted her about the CD, I was the one who was feeling guilty. Like I was a bad person for snooping and not trusting her and she feels like she's in a cage. Short of DNA testing I am sure I am the father, to be honest I would not want to do that. Ignorance is bliss on this issue.

I'm assuming this was a hint someone was sending you about who she was cheating with and not some racist remark by your friend.

That being said:

You're in massive danger of losing your rights as a father if you don't take immediate action to protect them. If you let her move out with your kid, then you will be fighting a losing custody battle to get a scrap of visitation time.

What do you do?

You don't let her take your son. You warn her that any such move will result in immediate action on your part and that you will get a lawyer if necessary. If she wants out, then she can leave. You and your son are a family that won't be separated willingly.

If you let her leave with your son, then you will be setting yourself up for visitation and weekend dad status.

This is a time to fight. It's counterintuitive, but ticking off your WW is the way to save your marriage. Not making anything easy on her is the road to saving things, as far as your rights as a father go, but appeasing her will only have you end up divorced and with scraps of time with your son.

Trust me, I speak from experience. I was so afraid of my WW's anger that I gave in to all her demands "to give us a chance down the road" (her words) and "to make things amicable" (pure fantasy).

You are in a fight. The fight is for your marriage first, your rights as a father second.

Others can weigh in on the marriage front. I can help on the legal one (since I fought a grueling one for rights to my kids).

Your greatest mistakes are made up front when you're in a state of weakness emotionally.

DONT LET HER MOVE OUT WITH YOUR SON!

And CALL A LAWYER tomorrow morning. Make an appointment. See if there is someone in town who specializes in Dad's rights. Get tough and stay tough. Otherwise, you will be hung out to dry, just like Help said.

Larry

Now_what...listen to whats being said regarding your child. You WILL get stuck with "daddy minimum" if you let her take your son out of the primary residence.

Its hard enough for dads to get a fair shake when it comes to visitation. Let her leave, but fight for your son. I hope you can reconcile your marriage, but do for your child right now.

Yes, the caller wanted me to know who my WW was having an affiar with. She told me his name also. I think that is the only reason why my WW admitted to it. I ended up emailing the OM after the discovery of his gift. His reply was very threatening and he told me to never, never email him again. So I didn't.
Sharing this has brought up many bad feeling towards my WW and how I handled the A. It was two years ago this happened and until yesterday I was in denial. I know that I am very emotional right now and I don't want to make any rash decisions.
I haven't contacted a lawyer yet because I don't want to do anything that would push her farther away, but I know diferantly now. Thank you for the support.

This is exactly what paralyzed me. I was afraid that taking action would ruin things further. Here's the reality you must understand: She needs to know that the path of divorce will neither be easy or amicable. There is no "nice" splitup and the last thing you will do is roll over and let her take your son.

Trust me when I tell you that what you need to do will feel wrong. She needs to respect you, and being a doormat that rolls over and lets her have things without a fight is NOT the way to go. It's the path to being a part time dad.

This woman sounds like a lost cause, given the short length of time you've been married and her multiple infidelity.

My advice is to lawyer up and get custody of your son.

First thing you need to do is gather your evidence and start spying.

I echo the advice of fighting for your son. I was able to negotiate 50/50 shared custody with my exWW due in large part of the bitter lessons learned by folks like HTLD.

Some things you need to consider:

1. What's your work schedule? A schedule that is in line with normal work hours is ideal for a Dad to get shared custody. Judges are familier with 9-5 and typical daycare arrangements.

2. If your lawyer says you don't have a chance at 50/50 custody, find a new lawyer. The lawyer is just looking for something quick and easy to run up billable hours with minimal effort.

3. There is no such thing as an amicable divorce with a WW. Just the very act of them having an affair shows they have no respect for you. Rolling over and falling on your sword will just sentence you to 15 years of begging and pleading with your WW for scraps of time with your child.

I was in your shoes too. Give WW an inch, she will take a mile. I learned that lesson the hard way. Now, twenty months out since D-Day, I have 50/50 shared custody, but she has been found in contempt of court 3 x's so far. I do not let her get away with anything.

What HTLD and PSU said. . . I totally agree.

Hoist up a pair and fight for your kid, period. My first marriage was back in the day when a dad, any dad, took it in the shorts. Along comes a stepdad who screwed up my kid so bad, he is now near worthless as a human being. He might have been anyway, but I know what stepdad did that could have been a contributing cause.

So, budget whatever it takes all the way down to one meal a day and a snack if you have to. That WW of yours is going to try to use you like a cheap towel. Don't let her.

Larry

NW- I know it's tough to hear, but you need to look at the reality of your situation. Try to detach emotionally from it all and veiw the situation as if it was somebody else. What advice would you give that person?

Thank answer is your instinct.

Try to figure out exactly what you want in your life and realize you may not get everything you want (healthy marraige with mother of your child). It is time to shake the cobwebs out and fight to keep your family together. At least you and your son.

Next step is to listen to the words of experience you will find on this site and take ACTION.

-Decide what you want in your life

-Call the lawyer (most offer initial free consultations)
-Continue to read the materials here, especially on Plan A & Plan B

-Stand up for yourself, your marriage and your son

-Continue to work on your own self improvement and become a better man

-Start gathering information as best you can (snoop). Knowledge is power and you need to know exactly what you are dealing with.

-Keep posting and share what is going on here. You will be amazed with the help and how your situation is not unique

-Don't slow down, instead think things through. You need to always remain calm and self-assured on the outside, even if you are a mess internally.

I too am very sorry you are here, but since you are in this situation, I'm glad you have found this site. I can't express how much this support and guidance has helped me during this time. You know I am here for you.

I understand that you're in a complete state of shock. In many ways, you're in a state of denial and disbelief. This is why she has the advantage. She's thinking on a completely different field than you are. She's emotionally already separated from you and indifferent to your pain. You, on the other hand, are in shock, denial, and in a state of trauma where you're hoping that this will disappear and things will go back to normal and you'll get your wife back.

Abandon that fantasy right now. It's not going to happen UNLESS you do what you need to do. Part of getting your wife back, if it happens at all, is growing a pair and being a man. This means that you act cool and calm, first and foremost. Think James Bond or Bruce Lee. They were calm men in the face of bad situations. Bruce took action when necessary, but was otherwise super calm and showed little emotion.

You may be inclined, as I was, to be weepy and whiny. This is a MAJOR turnoff. Don�t do it. Being calm is more unnerving to your WW. It also establishes that you're a man to be dealt with, not to be trampled on.

Speak calmly at all times. Don't ask about her thoughts on the marriage. The reality is that she doesn't care.

Part of what you need to do, whether you wish to save your marriage or not, is expose. Gather your evidence and expose the affair. Be forewarned that she will absolutely hate this. Read the other threads by the other men who have exposed. The response by the WW'es is nearly universal.

But you CANT, CANT, CANT allow her to leave the house with your son. This establishes precedent, primary custody for her, and puts you at a disadvantage. If she leaves with your son you need to take immediate action to get a court order to return the child to the marital home.

Talk to a lawyer. It doesn't hurt and she doesn't have to know about it. He or she can explain your options.

If I were you, I would get a lawyer and file for for legal separation AFTER she signed the lease, but right BEFORE she moved out with an injunction keeping her from taking the kids or the property with her. Sure, it will piss her off, but it will give you a better chance of staying married and keeping custody.

Wow! Thank you so much for the input. It is very well recieved.

A little more background info:
When we first talked about the big D, we (I was a doormart) were both in agreement as far as the boy. WW doesn't want to keep him from his daddy and will do 50/50 custody. At the same time though I told her that I would support any decision she made as far as leaving and give her child support. Since then I have told her that I do not want her to leave (like James Bond) and I made a pretty good case, she almost agreed to hold off on moving out and seeing a MC or any help. I also told her that I would not be as supportive as I originally told her. She was in deep thought and didn't answer so I walked away (like Cool Hand Luke) and left her to her thoughts. That was about five days ago and haven't talked about it since. We have normal conversations otherwise. We almost get along better now than before the big D talk. Maybe because she thinks she can eat all the cake she wants now and not gain any weight (maybe I got that backwards).

I talked to a lawyer today. Basicaly she can take the boy with her when she moves out. I could then go to her new place and if the boy answers the door I could take him back home with me. Since we are both legal guardians right now, either of us can take him anywhere we like as long the other knows of it and it is not out of state. This sounds like legalized kidnapping to me.

I bought some spy tools yesterday, a car GPS and DAR. They should be here soon. I can't help but think if what she told me about the OM and the EA is right. I don't have any evidence since the gift. I have access to her yahoo and she hasn't said anthing in emails about an A or the OM since then. That is why I think she does most her coorespondence on her work email. My biggest evidence is her willingness to just walk away without seeing any professional help, and how she thwarts my emotional support (and her past). My logic tels me she has been having an EA at least, but yes, I must know for sure. I feel so used and played looking back at it all. I never had a chance in this marriage.

Do you know for sure that the original OM is no longer working with your wife? If you are uncertain, I would call the office and ask for him, disguise your voice if necessary. If they say he no longer works there, I would suggest trying to get information on when he left, where he went etc. It seems a little strange to me that he would send the CD if they have had no contact.

The CD gift was two years ago, the OM was still there at the time. He is not listed in her current work directory as well.

Get a different lawyer. Sure, she can take the kid if she leaves, but not if you file for divorce or legal separation and have a temporary injunction preventing her from taking him from the marital home. The courts will not look favorably upon her uprooting the child from his home. That is why you need to file BEFORE this move becomes established and it becomes the primary residence for the child, and you lose your custody rights. Don't ever trust a woman hell-bent on ending your marriage and breaking apart your family. Her word agreeing to 50/50 is worth absolutely nothing. You look out for yourself. In fact, you getting primary custody or becoming the custodial parent will actually improve your chances of staying married even if it pisses her off. You want divorce to be as unpleasant an alternative as possible.

Young man,

You are playing checkers and she is playing chess. Worse she is thinking four moves deep and you don't even know the game you are in.

Think about that, and then go get yourself a billigerent, competent lawyer. You are about to be in a game you really cannot afford to lose.

JL

Ok so here's my best Queens Gambit strategy as I need a quick victory. Please share your thoughts, I have done alot of reading here for the past week and I am trying to digest it all.

1. Find a good lawyer and do what I have to do keep the boy in the house. I would like to do the temp injunction thing a day or two before she signs the lease.

2. Gather evidence. I would like to expose at least a week prior to her leaving so I can be around for the fallout and handle it accordingly.

3. Do all the carrot stuff for Plan A, no relationship talk.

4. I think that I would have to go to plan B once she moves out. That gives me about four more weeks of Plan A.

This is just a quick summary of each of the steps that I see before me.

NW,

Couple of thoughts:

The advice on bulldog lawyers isn't necessarily good. My ex got one and it backfired on her. His tactics looked vindictive, distasteful, and worked against her. He ended up costing us both massive amounts of money.

The reality is that 50/50 is a fantastic deal and one you are not wise to walk away from.

Keep that in the back of your mind. What you want is to get that in writing if you decide to go the divorce route. A verbal agreement with her is meaningless.

Simply file this info away.

Gather your evidence. What state do you live in? Are there marital misconduct laws?

A lawyer that seeks an amicable settlement is not necessarily a bad thing.

Eliminate a few thoughts from your mind:

Unless she's a doped out crack wh*re, the odds are low that you'll be give full custody of your son unless she abandons you and the kids.

PSUB is a good example of a man who did everything right. His ex used false charges against him, was hospitalized in a mental ward, threatened him on tape, and she still got 50/50. The behavior that courts accept from women is not the same as what they accept from men. The slightest thing can cause you to lose custody as a man.

Your goal is to be the amicable, likable, and reasonable one if you go to a court hearing. Be above the fray and not the one that is "out for blood".

Smearing your ex in court will backfire. Don't make any allegations unless you have solid evidence.

But we're putting the cart before the horse. A lot of WWes talk divorce and don't act on it. They consult lawyers and test the waters with your thoughts on the matter, but they still stick around. The secret lies in their actions, not their words.

She can talk divorce all she wants, but unless she goes and files, then it isn't going to happen. The one thing you should make absolutely clear is that you will not agree to your son being taken out of the marital home. She's welcome to leave if she wishes, but the boy stays in the marital home. Let it be clear that if she does, you will not hesitate to take legal action.

Also, find out if you're in a two party state in terms of recordings. If you're in a one party state, then great. You're good. If you're in a two party state, then you risk criminal charges against you for recording her without her consent.

I know of one case where a guy was spying on his WW who was having a lesbian affair around her kids and he lost big time in court because he was so aggressive in smearing her.

Understand that your goal is to have ample time with your son. Nothing else really matters.

Take this from a man who very much loved his wife when he was married.

4 years later, I could care less what happens to her. I honestly and truly don't know what is happening in her life nor do I care. She's dating a guy who is very good with the kids and treats them well and I don't want them to break up because I don't have to worry about him while I'd have to worry about someone else.

My point is that you'll get over your wife. Trust me, she will be as meaningless to you as some long lost high school girlfriend and you may even be grateful she's out of your life.

The only thing that truly matters is preserving your relationship with your son.

There is life after D. I'm going to remarry soon and am with someone that is leaps and bounds a better match for me than my ex ever was. I'm very happy and couldn't ask for more. But I made a ton of mistakes when I was in your shoes and hurt myself in my chances at getting a good amount of time with my kids.

I have a good arrangement right now that isn't perfect, but that I can live with. That is your goal and 50/50 is the best you can ask for.

The judges really don't care about the standard stuff they've heard a million times. They're use to people coming in and acting like the other person is the worst person in the world and that life will come to a halt if they give custody to them. They can see through all of that and short of her being a drugged out crack wh*re, they will not give you full custody.

Thanks for reading and sharing.

I still have love for my wife. I want to be an awesome marriage with the mother of my child. That said, I am prepared to move on. To get by in Afghan, I had to convince myself that we were already divorced to keep my sanity. She is a great mother and I respect and admire her for what she has gone through over the years.

We have gone through alot together and we have talked several times about not putting the boy between us if anything ever happened. We are both good parents and compliment each other very well in that Arena.

I feel I am walking a very tight rope here with the 50/50 custody thing vs. really pissing her off with an injunction. I really don't know what my best route is. If she is wayward, I know from what I have read on many of the threads here that she is not to be trusted. But, I have a hard time convincing myself that she would go against 50/50.

If I get the 50/50 (in writing), I feel I shouldn't pursue the injuntion. I know this is a battle that I would probably lose, and would just delay the inevitable. I know I want to make D as hard as possible, but (tightrope) I feel like I am using the boy as a tool to keep her in the house and I am having issues with this.

I talked to a differant lawyer today and made an app for Fri morning. That was his earliest opening. Thanks htld, I was wondering about the recordings (most eveything else I had no clue). As for her, she hasn't said anything about talking a lawyer. I don't know if she is waiting for me. She shouldn't be, she knows I want to work on things.

She seems a little more receptive to bits of affection and conversation from me lately. She has actually been answering texts. I had given up on texting her because she would never reply. I'm trying to implement as much of the basic concepts as I can and not make it uncorfortable/awkward.

I got the GPS and recorder today! I'm very excited about that. I'll let you know what I find.

NW

Then start developing your Plan to work these principles.

Continue to get legal advice and protect yourself and your son. You seem to be focused on not losing joint custody in a possible divorce. Don't forget, it is still possible to save the marriage too.

What are her top ENs? What are you doing to meet them as you can in the situation?

You are getting some great help on your thread regarding preparation for divorce. I think you need a little more on the marriage in my opinion. Keep reading. Check out BTTB's thread and Optimism's thread too. Also read some of Fred's and Linus. All very helpful.

I can only guess.
Affection, Admiration, Conversation, Recreational Companionship?

She is a believer in true love and I get the feeling from her that this is something that I should have figured out by now. Same goes for LBs.

I've been sending her texts throughout the day just asking her how her day is and how is she feeling. Trying to do more around the house. Minimizing LBs, annoying habits is my big one. Again this is a little tricky b/c I should know this one by know.

She's keeping tabs and I think right NOW I'm ok with that given the whole Afghan thing and the tempo at work.

If by that she means infatuation, she should know better, but may not. If you have a sneaky way of finding out, do so. Several of us here can tell you all about infatuation and the end game of having it disappear one day, poof.

Larry

Could infatuation = I owe her for past happenings, ex. LB, and being away for a year and the tempo prior to that?

NW,

That would be entitlement.

Infatuation is the rush of certain chemicals in the pleasure/reward centers of the brain that are pretty close to smoking crack.

I've not posted to you but have been trying to read your thread. I think you are missing a key element in this whole process. You aren't dealing with the woman you love. You are dealing with an alien that has abducted her body and though looks just like your wife has no good will toward you right now.. none... nada... zip... zilch... zero...

Her entitlement, fueled by resentment has caused her to rewrite the entire history of your relationship. She has turned you into not just the bad guy in this but the person that has caused her to abandon her sense of right and wrong. She has made you such an awful person that she has no choice but to cheat on you because if she didn't do that she would have to admit that she is cheating simply because she is a cheater and it is HER fault that your relationship is in the toilet.

She is comparing you to OM. But she isn't weighing your good points against his. She isn't comparing your shortcomings to his less than desirable traits or even to his best attributes. She is comparing the things she has told herself about your worst parts, fueled be resentment, dripping with entitlement, with a fantasy that isn't even who or what the OM is. She is living the life of a character in a romance novel. It's a character she is playing and not even who she really is.

So when you look at her, you see the mother of your children. But the character she is playing is not the mother of your children but the woman whose husband has made her life hell, is worth less than contempt, is the cause of every problem she ever had in life from acne as a teenager to having experienced pain during childbirth.

If she has friends who have already divorced, they are encouraging her to take everything you have, leave you broken, destitute and without so much as hope for the future.

Your wife might be stuck inside this creature you see, but she isn't the one running the show right now, so please listen to these folks and act to protect yourself, your rights as a father and your marital assets before all of them are stripped from you and given to another man...

Believe me when I say that I am not trying to slap you around here. I am NOT the guy who usually makes this kind of post. My wife and I are pretty much recovered and teaching MB to others through our church. But I recognize a condition of fear, and that fear is paralyzing you. You fear making her mad. You fear doing something to make things worse. She's boinking another man and is going to leave so she can do it without having to worry about what you think. How are you gonna make THAT worse?

You need to fear losing your home, child, retirement, investments you haven't even made yet and your self respect...

Preventing conflict will not fix this. The conflict must be resolved not avoided. Act from what is right and true instead of from a position of lostness (is that a word?) and hopeless despair.

You can only survive this if you have a plan. Wait and see will not work because it isn't a plan. It is like standing in the street till the bus comes to hit you before deciding which side of the street you need to be on. Fear will not save you and the reaction to fear will always cause you to avoid acting rather than driving you to act. It will cause reaction instead of action to reign. Hope will not get your wife back or let you keep your child or your house or your life as you know it. Hope is not much of a plan.

Please listen to these guys and come up with a plan...

Mark

Mark knows his stuff. Pay attention.

To boil it down a bit more: You can wait while your wife practices adultery until she gets it right and files for divorce, or you can protect your kids and yourself by listening, forming a plan and working the plan.

Read all that is here to be read by Dr. Harley and selected threads.

Larry

NW,

Be sure you have read these:
Carrot and Stick of Plan A by:Pep
Longhorn's thread for newly betrayed spouses.
WAT's Quick Start Guide

When you get around to it try reading the first couple pages in my "Musings" thread in my sig line.

You are waiting, hoping and maybe praying for a change in her heart and mind that will reverses this process that has begun and make everything all right. There is little chance of that occurring and even less chance if you keep headed the way you are. You MIGHT be able to save your marriage but first you need to save yourself so that you can even try to decide if it is worth saving.

Mark

Getting 50/50 written down on paper means absolutely nothing. You need to file and get a judge to rule on custody before anything is set in stone. If your WW has spoken to a lawyer she knows that, and she knows that if she moves out with the kid, she can probably get more than 50/50. You need to file first before she moves out to protect at least 50/50, or you will likely get screwed in the end. Again, do not trust this woman as far as you can through her, and getting anything written down on paper before anything is filed is absolutely worthless. If you file first and get a temporary order to keep your children in the house, you will be in a much better legal position so you can get your WW to agree to 50/50 on court record.

I have read the links, thank you.

Here's what that has me wondering if there is no alien invasion.

What if she hasn't had an EA since we married?
What if the CD gift was as she said, (completely the OM)?
What if what she told me about the PA and EA are correct?
What if her love bank is just completely empty?
What if the previous PA/EA (prior to our marriage) made me crazy in her eyes and thus drained the bank?
What if it is just me and we never should have gotten married?

I have a plan based off the Plan A/B concept (based off of an afair). If her Love Bank is empty then I don't want to hurt or piss her off based off of the "What if's" above.

I haven't gotten the ILYBNILWY speech. Last night she did tell me that she wants to leave because how I am a person, my reactions to things, how I handle certain situations etc..(fog or just never compatible to beging with?). I have gotten the I was never really happy and was never really sure about our marriage.

I feel like I am at a fork in the road and I don't know what way to go.

Even if all those 'what if's' are true and her love bank is still empty, wouldn't Plan A demonstrate actions on your part to make deposits into her love bank?

I think Plan A would still be the same, but maybe with a smaller stick. In Plan A you try to meet the ENs of your wife as best as she will allow you too. It takes a long time for her to realize the consistency of those actions to have faith that your changes are for real.

You figure out what her most important ENs are and you get creative on how you can show the ability or at least willingness to meet them.

I'm thinking there may not be a stick at all. So then would Plan A/B be the right approach? It is tailored for a WS after all.

Here is the fork in the road. Is my fear of hurting her with a possible messy D and custody justified? We are still in agreement w/50/50.

Certanly agree the carrot part of plan a applies and I will continue that path.

So confused......

I think Mark was spot on. Here we are with fear again. I don't think you are looking into protection for you and your son as a way to hurt her. You are taking actions for love and well being. You are not doing things out of spite or anger. Just a thought.

If you do nothing you will have a very prolonged and sad separate existence until she files and tries to take everything. You will be in limbo until she finally decides to officially end it.

I would continue to plan A and take steps to protect yourself. I wouldn't let her leave with your son.

NW,

If your wife's Love Bank is empty and she is in a state of Withdrawal, the best possible solution is to meet her ENs and avoid Love Busters.

If your wife is having an affair of any kind and is trying to gaslight you into leaving her alone to continue it your best possible solution is to meet her ENs and avoid Love Busters.

If your wife has just decided that she is tired of your crap and is sick of you being an [censored] to her and then expecting her to jump through hoops for you, the best possible solution is to meet her ENs and avoid Love Busters.

If you find that she is willing to work with you to make the marriage a great one and something that will make both of you happy in the long run, your best course of action is to meet her ENs and avoid Love Busters.

How many more "ifs" you want me to cover? Do you see a pattern yet?

The ANSWER to fixing a marriage in which one spouse is withdrawn (or both are) or where one is trying to justify running off with an affair partner or one in which the damage that has been done by actions of the past is the same answer since the PROBLEM is a spouse who has fallen out of love with you. Love ain't magic, son. It's something that can be created and destroyed. The feeling of love comes from having our ENs met and it is destroyed by what Dr H calls Love Busters.

Meet her ENs.

Avoid Love Busters.

Check back for inspiration and advice on how to do those two things. Those two things are how you fill her Love Bank and give her a reason to fall in love with you.

If "Ifs" and "Buts" were "Candy and Nuts" we'd all have a marvelous Christmas...

IF she's having an affair you expose the affair to anyone who might be able to have influence to apply pressure to end the affair but if there is not an affair there is nothing to expose and so you don't have to expose a thing to anyone.

However...

The way to lead her back from withdrawal and show her how great a marriage to you can be is...

You meet her ENs
You avoid Love Busters.

You make Love Bank deposits.
You avoid making withdrawals.

You SHOW her what a great husband you can be.

You don't TELL her...

You SHOW her...

By:

Meeting her ENs and avoiding Love Busters.

Have you got the pattern down yet?

(Fill in the blanks)

Step 1) _____ _____ ______
Step 2) _____ _____ ______

BTW, the carrot part of the plan is NOT placating her at all costs nor cowering in fear so as not to upset her...You don't have to be her doormat and suffer abuse at her hands.

You just have to do two things:

(Say 'em with me)

Meet her ENs

Avoid Love Busters...

Mark

Great advice as usual mark!

Thank you Mark, I love reading what you type. If you can't tell, I'm a little hard headed.

I have gone back and re-read EN's and the questionnaire among other things, and again I have a renewed spirit. I feel like I have been the only one working on our marriage for the past 18 months the best way that I knew how to (prior to knowing of the MB concept). It been a roller coaster. I would try and be the best husband and try to attend to her needs for weeks at times until I would just be fed up with all the rejections. So then I would withdrawl and wait....until something got in my head and I would have re-newed spirit....etc...

Question:
How far should one go with affection if it is unwanted? I will try and touch W on the shoulder, sit next to her on the couch, and other gentle touches. She does not like it, she will pull away if she can. I am hoping that repetition will slowly bring comfort back. Is this the wrong approach?

Read schoolbus's thread on body language is great...I'd read up on that.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1926030#Post1926030

NW- Remember, you were very challenged to actually 'work on the marriage' during the 12 plus months you were away. Sure, there was little things you could say or do but it is not easy while you are deployed.

As far as the touching....my WW is the same way. Adamantly refuses to let me even touch her slightly. Schoolbus' thread is very good. I'm not sure if I read this there or somewhere else, but the refusing to be touched may be a sub-conscious way of showing that she actually DOES want to be touched, but wants you to CHASE her, so to speak. Something to think about, but tread lightly there and go slow.

Very challenging indeed! I did have access to email everyday so that was our main means of communication. For every five emails I would send her I would only get one in return. Hardly anything in the mail at all. I sent her a "loveletter" once, I felt like I really opened my heart up to her. I didn't ask for anything from her in the note, just explained my love for her. Weeks passed with no response from her, so I called her to see of she got it. Her response was "Oh yeah, I read it......", silence. To be totally ignored like that after laying it all out there was very painful.

I have been thinking alot about being a doormat. I can probably say that I have been this way for most if not all of our marriage. Other than meeting her EN's and avoiding LBs, this is my main focus. This may be a tough ballancing act for me. I have always had an accomodating personality, putting the needs of others before my own. I think that she sees this part of my personality as a weakness.

Thanks for the link, very good insight.

now_what,

I know exactly how you are feeling right now--the confusion, the hurt, the desperation, the fear of "rocking the boat"--I was there back in 2006-7. PLEASE LISTEN TO THIS:

1. There is a 99.9% chance that your wife is in an ongoing-affair.
2. The 'carrot' of Plan A is fine but it will have little effect as long as the affair continues.
3. THE AFFAIR MUST END first. That means the 'stick'. The stick is cutting off all financial support for the affair and (most of all) RAPID & SIMULTANEOUS EXPOSURE.
4. Find out all you can quickly (hire a PI!), esp. about the OM.
5. Your exposure should include WW's contacts but MUST INCLUDE OM's targets (his wife, family, job, etc.)
6. WW's are almost always highly emotionally-addicted & self-entitled. They very rarely leave the OM voluntarily. Your best hope is that your exposure threatens something the OM values (his career, marriage, etc.) more than WW, or at least makes the affair "not worth the hassle" to him. You need the OM to dump WW!
7. Only AFTER the affair ends with complete NC, and she goes through withdrawal, can recovery start to take place.

You are are looking at a long and daunting road here with no guarantee of success. I'm sorry. If this is not the 1st time she has been unfaithful, you may want to consider Plan D and start protecting yourself legally.

My gut is telling me there is an A. I have noticed that I have doubts after talking to her. Maybe I'm drinking her Kool-Aid.

I have a DAR and a GPS both stashed in her car. No results as of yet. I'm really curious to listen to the audio tonight because it is her first day back to work after spring break. The GPS battery must have died as I can't get a signal all day.

Nothing from checking her yahoo, even going back to the emails while I was deployed. I suspect that the A went underground after I found the "gift". If the A is with whom I suspect then I would imagine that it would send a shockwave at her work.

As for a PI, I am leerie here. I would need most of the work done at her work. She works at a place that looks very unkindly to stangers being around. If I get evidence then I may pursue a PI for the OM.

Thanks for insight..

If you have a VAR and a GPS, you will get results.

Please check back in with us tonight.

I wish my GPS had power today. When I checked the VAR, it had 3 hours ans 17 min of audio. I got super excited as her round trip is 2hrs.

Turns out that about and hour of the audio was just background noise, but I can say the she went somewhere during her day. It's suspicious because I'm pretty sure that she brought her lunch. Having the GPS together with the audio would have answered alot, trying again tomorrow...etc...

She is going to a class this saturday (fairly uncommon) and I am thinking about putting the VAR in a side pocket of her purse. Has anyone tried this and gotten any good audio? I know it may be risky, but she never keeps anything in those pockets and the VAR is pretty small.

I am also considering emailing a co-worker and asking if she has anything that could help me. This woman was with her on a 3 day buiness trip (the suspect OM was also), a week later we had our D talk. I'm hesitant because I have never talked or met this woman and I really don't know their relationship. I may be able to play the gossip/help me save my marriage card. The problem is that this might blow up in my face, but I'm almost to the point that it wouldn't matter.

I urge you to be patient. Let the GPS do its job.

Is the recorder voice activated? Seems like you should have heard something.

Will do.

I decided to start sleeping in my bed a couple of nights ago and the sleep was glorious! Last night she tells me that she is going to sleep in the other room on the air mattress. I asked her why and her responce was that she gets too hot and can't sleep as well. Nothing about sharing a bed w/me.

Should I interperate that any way? I feel like I analyzing every interaction with her and it's driving me crazy empowering her like that!!

Good job on reclaiming your bed. Let her sleep on the air mattress.

Hopefully your snooping will pay off.

What's with the "Hopefully" talk now?

LOL!!! You got me there!!!

Please take careful notes of how they work, where you installed them, etc. Lots of people are interested in them.

The VAR I installed inside the center console of her car. The console doesn't extend all the way to the firewall so I put it there, pretty much by the gas pedal.

I get mostly road and radio noise, I don't know if there is a way around this. When she talks I can hear her pretty clearly. I do want to put a microphone on it and run the wire somewhere closer to the business end.

The GPS is pretty awesome I must say. I installed it in the trunk out of sight by the speakers. I was curious if it would work w/o direct exposure to the sky...and it does.

It came with mounting hardware which is useful but in my case I had to play with it a little. I ended up using zip-ties instead of screwing it into the car itself. The drawback is that the zip-ties prevented the "locator" from snapping all the way into the mount. This was fixed with elctrical tape.

It is battery (rechargeable) powered but it comes with wiring to hard wire the power to the car's wiring harness. Otherwise, you need to plug it into a wall charger (included). I plan on doing this but it may take some time. It will end up being a late night endeavor.

I have the GPS set up to send me a text and email whenever the car leaves a 250yds radius from a "Safezone". Right now my safezones are home and work. Once the safezone is left I log on and watch.

Drawback: Sometimes the locator stops thinking and doesn't update the location. This is fixed by logging out and back in. That caused quite a moment for me before I figured out what was going on. There is a monthly fee of around $17.

I would highly recommend the GPS if you can swing it.

Oh, that is interesting! Can you transfer that post to Spying101?

Do you mind me asking how much the GPS was?

The DAR and GPS gave me alot of info today and I am 100% sure she is Wayward. I'm so scared right now.

I want to confront her but the audio isn't great, I can only hear thier voices. I can hear them talking in the back ground of another car in a parking garage (thank you GPS.

I think I will do a little PI work of my own at the garrage tommorrow.

Please help me calm down!!

So sorry to hear that!

But it is very common that the WS has a hard time with no contact.

PLEASE stay here and post, and don't expose your source.

I hope not to expose my source at all.

Here's the news.

She wore a skirt today, very unusual.

She left work around 3:30.

Her car wa parked in a parking garage for about 45min, I need to double check the audio for the timeline. The audio confirm she got in her car and made a stop.

There were 4 hours of audio from today alone. about and hour again was misc back ground noise.

I can hear voices in the background which are hers and another man. It sounds like they are in a car next to WW. I can hear moaning and kissing.

The OM sounds black, this is not a rascist observation. The previous OM who gave her the CD gift was black.

When she got home she changed right away. I checked skirt and there is a "stain" where she would be sitting and it was wet. I couldn't find any panties that were wet in the pile of clothes on the floor.

Later when I was putting the boy to bed she walked by into our room w/something in her hand. After the boy was in bed I check the laundry pile...nothing new. I checker her hamper (she never puts her clothes in there), I found a pair of sexy panties with a stain. I suspect she had them in her purse.

I had a talk with her about us afterwards. I just wanted her to know that I feel horrible for pushing her away over the years. That I felt it was my fault for our marriage being over. She said that it wasn't all my fault....put her cigarette out and just sat there.

This is abnormal as she is quick to walk inside after her smoke.

Me: What are you doing?
WW: Well do you want to talk more?
Me: No, I've said enough.

She walked inside. I laid the guilt trip on her and I think she was expecting more drama from me.

Anyway, I'm very emotionaly upset right now. Part of me feel sreleif becaue I felt that the only way to save my marriage was if there was an affair. Am I crazy?

I really like the idea of going to the parking garrage and seeing if I can get solid picture evidence. I think I need more for it to stick.

Thanks for any support you can give tonight, I have a feeling that it's going to be a long one behind this cpu.

Breathe dude. You knew deep down inside, you just didn't want to accept that she would do this. You thought she was a little different than the others you read about. The thing you got to keep in mind is she isn't your wife right now. She is the alien. And all the aliens think and act the same. They read out of the same playbook.

Be James Bond and stay calm, cool, and collected. You are a decorated combat vet. You are stronger than your fear. You WILL get through this situation and you WILL be OK- with her or without. Nothing is going to change overnight.

Call me if you need to.

Now, don't be reactive. Think this through and post your thoughts/ideas on here for some of these other 'vets' to help you work out your plan.

Grab those undies. You can order a kit to get them tested for sperm. I imagine it probably is a black guy, just because of her history. So figure out who she works with that is black.

Stay calm. I know it is horribly hard, but you need to keep your sources safe so you can get the whole truth. Then you can expose the affair which gives you the best chance of ending it and saving your marriage.

And by the way, are you in the military and still facing more deployments?

The point of any kind of "snooping" is to gain irrefutable, undeniable PROOF. Anything a WS can possibly cover-up or plausibly lie about, he/she WILL.

I understand that there is utility to GPS/VAR and they can be helpful. Unfortunately, like in this case, they can also be 'suggestive' while still not being definitive. Your obviously-WW will probably still DENY because all you have are two garbled voices and muffled sounds that she can make up excuses for. It sounds like all you can PROVE thus far is that she had a conversation with a man and later there was "moaning" in the distance. She's gonna BS-the-heck out of you if that is all you have.

Buddy, GET INCONTROVERTIBLE PROOF ASAP so you can do effective exposure she can't twist her way out of.

1. TEST THOSE "STAINS" against your DNA right away!
2. Meanwhile, HIRE A PI to get photo/video proof and to find out WHO THE OM IS and all about him.

I know this costs $$$, but you need to know! You need more than an anonymous stranger's voice.

PERSONAL NOTE: I had friends who knew me/my WW well--they warned me "something might be up" and begged me to hire a PI in 8/06. I was in the same mental state you are in right now (hurt, confused, afraid, "drinking her Kool-Aid", etc.) and chickened out on doing it--MY BIGGEST MISTAKE AND BIGGEST REGRET!!!!

Please....do it without delay. I know what I'm talking about here. Every week you delay proof+exposure is more time for WW to become more emotionally-addicted, more self-entitled, and more likely to co-apt your potential exposure targets with her lies, cover-stories, and scapegoatings. Been there!

Thanks B, I feel better already. I feel like I do need to talk to someone, but posting now seems to be theraputic.

I feel horrible right now. I know she is alien and I have read many theads about how WW act......but D@MN!!! She has been flat out lying to me our whole marriage, knowing the pain I was in over the years!!!!

How can she sleep right now knowing what she is doing to me and NW5??????!!!!!!! I know all parents say this but he is the cutest, most knid hearted boy in the world.

If I grab the undies she may notice they're gone? I like the idea but I don't want to push the A even farther underground if she thinks I grabbed them.

I have been deploed four times in my 11 years of sevice (only one combat). There are always rumors about when the next one will be. I would guess another one is on the horizon in 3-4 years.

I know I need a plan, words and ideas are flowing freely from my hands right now. I think I'm typing 100wds per min here.

To clarify, she does not know that I know. The talk was just about how I feel guilty for ruining our marriage by my jealous actions. I know it's not my fault, I just wanted her to feel guilt and guage her response.

No lawyer talk tonight please, no offense, but I know......

Yeah, I agree. Get a kit quickly and test those. They're not always 100% but pretty damn accurate. At least you know something is going on. I'm sorry this is happening to you. Keep your chin up and take care of yourself.

Now What

So now you know. Good job of spying. By all means, keep it up.

What is your plan from here? This is her second, right? All sorts of things must be running through your head. I have some thoughts I can share with you when you are ready.

What does your intellectual side say to you?

Larry

That's all I can do now. I can't change the past, I can decide how I'm going to react this development.

I'm going to try and stay on the high road, If there's one thing that I can hang my hat on after all this, I want it to be that.

I'd like to echo Larry's comments here, particularly in light of the latest developments. And that pair of panties? Hold as evidence and get it tested as suggested.

I also suggest hiring a PI at this point to gather more evidence for you. And put processes in place to protect your finances (e.g. no joint credit cards, limited funds in joint accounts, etc.). Your WW is actively deceiving you and working against your interests - there's no telling how far she'll take that.

What do laws state about marriage and adultery in your location?

I would grab the panties. Then throw a load of wash in and maybe she will think they got lost.

Don't worry about alienating her further, because your marriage is already in great danger.

WWs are evil creatures, period.

Enough with the talk of your part of the blame in the M. You've said it and it's out there. No matter how bad you were, there is no justification for her betrayal. At the most, cop to 50% of the responsibility for the M being in the shape it was in pre-A. She owns the other half.

I made the same mistake last year and looking back, I feel my overwhelming guilt and apologies further fueled her justification and entitlement.

My itellectual side tell me it's the same OM that gave her the CD (#2 then). I would say that she is love with OM. I remeber reading other threads about this, I don't exactly remember the specifics. Somehow that was better than multiple A's with multiple OMs.

If it is who I suspect, I checked his FB last week and he is listed as in a relationship with....someone, same last name though. I am FB illiterate and I was afraid the OM could see that I was checking him on FB.


I have al night Larry so please share.

SoL, I don't feel that way! I was just laying on the guilt to see her reaction. And maybe trying to get a little revenge, (I'm starting to feel bad about that now. Not really the high road.)

Well I can tell you that OM can NOT tell who is looking at his page unless you post something on there. Is it an open profile? If it is, you need to go on there right now and get all of the contact info for all of his friends. You will need this list to expose to his friends when you KNOW it is him. Get all the info about him that you can from his page.

Maybe I misunderstood here. Were you trying to make her feel guilty, or were you expressing your own guilt?

I am so sorry you are going through this, but I had a very strong feeling about it the first day we talked. I am so glad you are here getting some help.

Just stay focused on being the best father you can be for your son right now. He is really going to need you.

Well, you need to make sure 100% it's him. No use throwing unfounded accusations out there. And don't worry about the OM, they're cowards anyways. As far as his FB page, I believe he won't know you've been to his page especially if you're not on his friends list. You're just reviewing his limited info. Once you know you have proof positive 100% that she is still active, EXPOSE! If those panties come back positive, EXPOSE! If the voice recorder give you 100% evidence EXPOSE!!!! Good Luck! I'm pulling for you!

Scotty is 100% correct. Do this tonight. At least view all of POSOM's friends and write down their names from FB. If he blocks you later, you can still send a message to each one after you have confirmation.

Five years is a long time for an affair. This leads me to believe,if I got it right, that she is in it for the excitement and so is he. It really doesn't matter if it was the same guy or not, it is about the excitement, the endorphins.

And there is absolutely nothing you can do with someone who is hooked on endorphins. It is what it is and it is like trying to deal with a drunk or a druggie.

Sorry NoW. That is my opinion based on what you have revealed, especially from your intellectual side.

Let me give you the VERY real downside. I think it was Betray_Dad who started it and MiM has wisely given his opinion as well.

Do you want to be an every other weekend dad, and depending on the state you are in, financing her "Activities" with "Visitors" who provide her excitement and also provide your boy with a view of mommy that is just so not right?

Don't blame any part of this on any part of you. She owns what she is doing. My suggestion is that you get your butt to a rabid Lawyer who will tell you how to protect YOUR interest so YOU can protect YOUR son.

And that means tomorrow.

What do others think, please? Even with the backing from MiM and BH, I could be off base.

Larry

I've asked RIF to chime in here. Hopefully he will. He saved his marriage after several affairs.

I tend to agree with you Larry, but I'm hesitant to advise that. I really think NW needs to really think about what HE wants in his future. Does he want to recover the marriage? Does he want to cut his losses and go straight to Plan D?

I can really see the possibilities in both. Even if the recovery option does not work, isn't one of the greatest points of this program the fact that along the way it prepares you for Plan D anyway?

I will leave it up to MiM and Betrayed to chime in with their version of the bad trip.

My opinion is that it is very ok to take both paths. Try to kill the affair and restore the marriage. At the same time plan and execute for the real possibility that won't work.

If you devote all of your efforts to Plan A, you might be allowing yourself to get set up for what I said. And what MiM and Betrayed said. I keep repeating their names for a reason.

The validation of this method of dual path recovery/divorce needs as much input as possible to provide good advice for those who would attempt to do it. And way many ideas of how to do it.

Larry

Right now he needs a plan. And that is to continue snooping and then expose the affair. The MB plan will work for recovery, and if not, a better life.

He has lots of time to decide whether to stay married or not.

Based on what I've read so far, I have great concern for NW in his situation. Based on the level of deceit that's apparently happening, his WW has likely already taken steps to ensure that she emerges at considerable advantage in the event that they part, and is likely planning for exactly that event.

Contrary to what some others have suggested here though, I'd suggest not bothering to expose to OM's friends via FB - given the situation and the apparent length of this A, he's likely flaunting his relationship with NW's WW amongst his friends already. To be honest, my suggestion would be to gather as much damning evidence about the A as possible as possible, execute plans to emerge from D with as much advantage as possible, and then proceed directly to D with no warning to WW. THAT approach might wake WW out of drug-induced stupor, but I wouldn't bet on it.

She might notice, but what's she gonna do? Ask you if you've seen her sexy new (stained) panties that she had stashed in her purse and tried to hide in the hamper?

Besides, maybe a wayward could use a taste of their own medicine in the form of some crazymaking!!! Let her wonder what in the heck happened to them!

I can totally relate to your desperation and need to know the truth, so please have them tested!

Interesting observation. I think I agree.

Larry

I like it, but I think this will only work if NW can successfully answer deceptively if his WW asks him if he saw her panties anywhere.

His response: "No, but "named OM Here" DID.

LG

Haha, I love it LG!

Guess who just got caught with his hand in the cookie jar (purse) !!

NW should just collect the panties and have them tested.

If shes busted, shes busted.

If they test positive, shes busted.

If she ASKS, shes busted.

She has been covering this up so long that she thinks shes Jane Bond.

She has gotten lazy.

When she can't find her panties:

She WILL call OM and tell him. "OMG, I think NW has my panties from yesterday, I need to avoid you for a couple of days and see what he does...!"

And then you have what you need.


LG

If the OM has been around for a long time, it is likely that he is married. I vote for exposure.

NW:

You don't need a PI now. You just need to know the next day she leaves at 3:30.

And you can travel to the parking garage and introduce yourself.

Pretty damning evidence at that time, don't you think?

LG

I think all of you are on the mark!

1. I want to save and build this marriage. For many reasons but I think you can figure them out.

2. I will not fight for a doomed marriage/woman.

3. The endorphin thing is very interesting, and I think you are right Larry. I hope that this is something that can be resolved an/or addressed.

4. I will definately expose. I have the tools, determination, and nothing to loose.

Take a camera and a large friend with you.

And please make sure you protect yourself just in case. Doesn't hurt and might save your bacon down the road. You cannot see your future through the lens of hope, only the real world of possibilities.

Larry

IMO that is likely to turn out badly. Like a RO being filed against NW for trumped-up "abuse" charges or because she is "scared" when he's around. We're dealing with an active and devious WW here, and she should not be underestimated.

That's why he brings a friend, and as a minimum, has a VAR in his pocket recording what is going on.

He can go by the parking garage and see if they have any security camera tapes also. She might already be on film. If not with bum in air, then at least exiting her car and entering OM's, and the requisite kiss goodbye before she leaves.

LG

So I went downstairs to check out her purse looking for a parking garrage receipt, cell phone, and general snooping.

She heard me, appearantly she can't sleep as well!!!

WW: What are you doing?
NW: Lookin through your purse.
WW: Why?
NW: No response.
WW: I can't believe....I would never...I have never...foggggggg.
NW: What are you hiding?
WW: NOTHING!!
NW: Ok.
WW: Why..I can't believe...fogggggggggggggggg

I then proceded to lay out her plan for to leave as I see it and my reasoning of it, "that is why I was snooping." I then told her that I will not support her in ANY way and that I would not let her take ANYTHING from this house, esp NW5.

WW: So we're getting dirty? I can't believe that you would hold NW5 over my head!
NW: No, you ae the one who wants to leave and I will not let you take NW5 away from me. How are you going to pay for everything? I own the loan for your car, that's $300.00, insurance is $100.00, not to mention everything that you will need for NW5, and the apartment. Have you thought about that?
WW: ......yes, I can do it (alot of doubt in her voice here).
NW: Ok.
WW: I can't believe that you are doing this to me (she starts to cry, I'm not buying it)!!!!
NW: You are doing it to yourself, I not forcing you to leave, I want you to stay and work on our marriage.
WW: You say that you think I'm being selfish, this is the only time in my life that I am doing something for myself!
NW: I really admire you for everything that you did while I was away. You are awesome for taking care of NW5 and the house and the dog, etc.....
WW: Then why don;t you just let me go?
NW: You can, I'm not stopping you.

Silence......3min.........her palm on her forhead in deep thought.

NW: Remeber the good ole' time when we had the spaghetti fight? Remember this remeber that.......

Silence....4min..........her palm on her forhead in deep thought.

NW: I still have love for you.

Silence....4min..........her palm on her forhead in deep thought.

NW: We can work through all of this.
WW: I'm going to bed, goodnight.
NW: Good night sweetie, I love you.

That was the gist of it, I'm sure that I missed some stuff. All because I got caught with her purse. Needless to say she took her purse back to bed with her.

A $100 bill goes a long way with people who work for minimum wage in a parking garage. That would be preferred to a confrontation. And I just had the thought that a confrontation would almost certainly lead to divorce, which NW is nowhere ready for yet.

Larry

OUCH! Well, I have given you my advice. See no reason to repeat myself.

Larry

Thank you all tonight!

I am feeling pretty good right now which is a complete 180 from earlier. I know that my emotions are on a roller coaster ride and will be for a while.

But tonight I think that I can sleep, thank you..

Well, she knows you're looking. If you are going to test those panties, you have to get them now! That silent treatment deep in thought could have been think about what you could know now and covering her tracks.

I the FB thing, I'm not sure I would contact all of his friend but I don't know too many people that don't have family members in their friends list. I would contact anyone that has his last name. Sooner or later, that informatiion is gonna get back to Mom and Dad and I'm not too sure they're gonna be proud of a son that's sleeping with a married woman and breaking up a family. Just my two cents!

test those panties

When WW say's what did you do with my panties? BH say's what panties. Just the way a BH ask's the WW about the OM and she say's what OM.

Bring a camera, DVAR, a friend, get proof, no confrontation, just walk away with evidence.

Then do a full blown exposure.

I smoked a pack of cigarattes in a matter of 8 hours last night! Who let the cat in here?!?!

Ok, I have two pairs of panties. One were the ones she left the house with ywsterday morning. The second were the ones she changed into when she got home yesterday (there is a quarter size white stain there). I also grabbed her skirt that had a stain too.

Where and how do I test these?

I think TheRoad's idea for to get confirmation may be the best case. I really don't like the idea of confrontation. A picture and WW seeing my face behind the camera would be enough I think.

I checked his FB. He has over 400 friends! Only one has the same last name, I think he has a very extensive family with alot of cousins. He does list his mother and wife though.

I think I may have enough right now if the pantie evidence comes through. That may be enough to get her fess up. Certanly it's enough to expose to her family. I want to expose correctly though, to all parties.

Sorry you had to go through that last night. YIKES!!!!

Okay, you are a war-fighter and this is WAR. Be very smart and careful. Don't get into any more confrontations with her. The big danger now is that she will incite you to anger and somehow get you out of the home with a protective order.

You need to continue checking on the OM and find out if he is married. Kind of sounds like it if he is doing his stuff in parking garages.

Well said.

So what are you going to do? What are your plans? See my signature, what are your plans???????

Larry

Forget the garage for now. After last night she probably will have to forgo that afternoon session.

Keep moving forward with the GPS and especially the DVR.

And, of course, test the panties.

Start protecting yourself financially. It's not a bad idea to lawyer up before she does either.

I hate WW's. They are the most vile of creatures.

Men here have used Checkmate, a tester you get in the mail. It costs about $30. It only verifies the presence of semen. But you aren't having SF with her, right?

How much time do you think you have until she misses those items? Get the tester quickly!

No SF since early December.

From the advice given earlier I don't care if see knows they are missing.

Actually, NW has fairly good proof right now. He has the VAR, the GPS location, and just the fact that they met.

She knows something is up and probably suspects a PI. Hopefully she won't suspect the GPS. She will warn the OM that they have been caught and maybe that will cool his jets some.

NW - Plan your exposure carefully. It should be to the OM's wife (that usually does the trick), their work, family and friends. You should be asking for everyone's support and help in keeping your family together. The parking garage as a tryst site is sleazy so that is in your favor. It will be hard for them to claim that they are just "friends".

Don't let your wife know about the exposure before you do it. You want to shock and awe them.

The hard part is you have to do all of this at the same time:

1) Gather evidence, snoop emails, calls on the phone bill, texts, panties, GPS, keyloggers

2) Protect yourself and NW5 financially, use a VAR when ever you talk to her. (My BIL WW would throw herself against the wall and bruise herself then blame him.)

3) Make a plan A

4) Make a Plan B

Oh and plan out the exposure to selected targets. Post what you are planning on telling these targets. Offer these targets evidence on request.

Exposure = kill the affair.

Alot of great advice.

My gut is telling me there will be contact today. All she knows right now is that I'm snooping and suspect her. I'm sure she is taking this very seriously as I was looking in her purse hours after there were soiled panties in there. I am pretty sure that the last thing she thinks I will do is make a 40 min drive to her work.

So I put out the call and as many of 8 of my Army buddies (all friends of WW too) may join me today. The plan is we will be on standby in case contact is made. We will have a cam-corder and camera.

I do not want confrontation and I have told all my buddies this. I have asked them all for support to help save my marriage and family. I think the ammount of people and the size of some of them will prevent any physical alterations. They all know to keep a tight lip and that the whole A will be exposed soon.

Hope this doesn't turn into a search and destroy mission. My biggest worry is that she will get an RO on you and force you out of the house.

Line up targets for exposure, especially work and the OM's wife. Usually OM will give up if the husband makes it difficult, and they will find an easier paramour.

8 guys?! Dang this guy must be Terry Crews!

I don't know what grounds she could have for a RO. Never been violent or threatening to her, and that is the LAST thing I want today!

Some WW's make up reasons. That is why you need to be very careful.

Ah, yes. That is why the cam-corder is coming.

This is starting to remind me of the TV show "Cheaters".

HAHA! I'm hoping they all can make it. Most have to change plans and such but all want to come.

So do you have info on how to contact OM's wife?

Through FB I guess. I have her name and I think she is a student at a university from what I gathered from her FB.

See if you can find her on spokeo or intellius. Get all of the info you can and be sure not to tip anyone off. Otherwise OM will put a spin on the story and make you out to be some nutcase.

That is exactly how the OMW was made out to be 5yrs ago by WW, when OMW called me.

That's because it came right out of the wayward handbook. They ALL do it.

I can see how the connection has been made to assuming who the OM is. Just be prepared for anything though, it could well be someone else that you know nothing about. I would get all the information I could on the first OM but keep an open mind. You don't know anything for sure yet. That's why the snooping is vital.
I'm so sorry you are going through this ordeal.

Yep, gotta get the right OM.

Haven't seen anything on the news about 8 army guys going to jail after a search and destroy mission. That's hopeful.

HAHA, the steak-out was fruitless. Can't wait to listen to the VAR tonight.

So was the GPS still on the car?

We were worried.

now-what, I have been where you are right now, so I do know how you feel. IMO it's time to settle down and just slowly, but surely work on gathering your evidence and getting all the facts together.

I think the fact your wife found you going through her purse last night would have made her hesitant about meeting today.
Perhaps they only meet once a week or when the opportunity presents itself. There is no way for you to know that at the moment, unless I missed something ???

She is probably highly vigilant at the moment and being very, very careful. I actually found emails where my WH would tell the OW that he would have to "cool it" for a few days as his wife was asking too many questions! They do not get to deceive us by being stupid, just dishonest and deceitful.

I'm sorry today didn't work out for you. Anything on the VAR?

Precisely why a PI is the better way to get "damning proof".

If NW shows up there and even if he finds WW with OM, it isn't going to prove anything unless he literally "catches them in the act" and is able to document it. It�s nice to have undeniable photographic evidence to copy in an �exposure packet� mailed out to all WW�s/OMs targets. Just saying �I saw them� or �I heard them� is too easy for a WW to wiggle/scapegoat her way out of. In addition, MiM is right�she is likely to be VERY PISSED and start something legal, esp. if a verbal or physical altercation ensues.

WW being pissed isn�t the issue. The problem is that she or OM may provoke something or later make something up to use against NW. This is what PIs are for.

SDCW has made great points.

See NowWhat, you are getting the benefit of possibilities from those who have walked in your shoes and have live those very real possibilities.

Guys here have been thrown in jail for what a WW has done.

Guys here have lost their homes, their kids and had to pay so WW could have a good time.

And women on here have seen their lives torn asunder because of what some POSWH has done as well. Affair garbage is equal opportunity.

You lose nothing by recording conversations with her. You lose nothing by hiring a PI. You lose nothing by testing, by snooping, etc. If recovery, great, you have the ammunition to expose. You also have the opportunity to explore this site and learn all of the material that is here or buy the books. But you could lose everything if you don't have the goods and a plan.

Just for emphasis, I know you have heard it before. Just thinking of you.

Larry

NW,

Just think how much better and more effective it would be to expose to OMW (the probable KEY exposure target here) if you can provide her with DAMNING, INCONTROVERTIBLE proof rather than just some muffled sounds on a VAR and GPS coodinates from a parking garage. OMW is going to be far more convinced & determined and less able to be gaslighted by her WHs inevitable lies & cover-story with the former rather than the latter.

PLEASE:
1. Test the "stains" immediately
2. Have a PI document the adultery photographically

An unwanted divorce is far more expensive, emotionally and financially, than the above 2 actions. If you don't break this affair quickly via "the stick", there is a high liklihood that is where you will end up, like it or not.

Pulling for you...

Hi NW,

Believer asked me to stop by... don't have time to post now as it's time to head to the office...

I'll keep an eye on your thread. Please let me know if you have any questions...

Semper Fi,

RIF

Thank you everyone, doing good.

Don't be mad at me.

Ok, so I am home after the steakout and I was in a prety good mood and I posted. WW comes home and she is really giving me the cold shoulder, and sour looks. This really gets under my skin and I'm pissed! What nerve she has!!

I looked at her and said, "how can you sleep at night?". I also told her that I am very angry at her. I let me emotions get to me and I am ashamed of it.

After NW5 is in bed she really pushes me as to why I'm angry at her. I told her I didn't want to talk about it. She kept pushing so I walked away and had a smoke to collect my thoughts...the wrong way.

I come back and tell her why I'm really pissed.
-I feel played
-Our marriage has been a lie this whole time

I push her for the truth about the A. I gave little hints as to where she might have been yesterday, none of my secrets though. I kept pushing and she finnaly admitted it.

Ok, we have a breakthrough, now what? She has agreed to think about counselling and she read Truehearts letter (yes, she knows about this site now, ooops). She was curious how I was/able to cope and deal with this whole mess.

Problems:
-I think we have a different OM...she told me that we would talk about this in counselling. (I know she agreed to think about it)
-She may find out about the stick.
-She may find my thread about the spying tools.


She is very conflicted right now. She asked me how I could want to stay in this marriage after all she has done to me. She said I don't want to hurt you any more by talking about the A. She feels bad for making me feel our marriage was all my fault. I sensed real remorse, and curiousity on my perspective of all this mess.

I don't know what to do about the website thing. She was very interested to read other WW sitch's. I was looking for "Inside the WW mind". I found it now....

I feel like I really messed up, but.....here I am now...NW?

I have some books coming in hopfully tomorrow, SAA, HNHN, Fall in Love Stay in love. She wants to read them.

Well, you DID mess up. You let her know about this website, so she will know all of your tactics. I'm really afraid for you.

You need to expose right away to the other man's wife, and hope that your wife doesn't warn him, which she probably will.

On the other hand, you seem very devoted to your wife, son, and keeping your family together. If your wife shows up here she will get all of the support she needs to stay with the father of her son and move onto a wonderful marriage.

NW

That was a huge breakthrough.

You are showing backbone and courage. That is very, very good with her. And after all, you are the father of her kid and that counts as well.

And yes, she may find the thread. Nuts! Very not good.

Based on what you have said and a clue from MiM, I have a theory or two, but can't say on a family forum. It is excitement and endorphin based. It is a verbal thing as in talk, that women can get into outside marriage far easier than inside marriage because of inhibitions. That is as close as I can get and stay within bounds. Maybe MiM can do a better job. I think he has the same theory. And theory is all it is as I do not know your wife.

Be firm but kind. Be firm but kind. Stick to your guns. You are doing great.

Larry

You didn't really mess up at all. You confirmed you married a serial cheater that has not one iota of empathy for you.

Find a lawyer.

Here's my idea for the fix for her knowing of this website. I'm going to cut the internet at home. This way she would only be able to check while at work. She has limited access there dury duty hours. Downside, I can only check this while at work.

She knows that I am looking on the internet in general for marriage advice and personal growth, not just specificly here. She's not really cpu literate so it would take her a while find this I think.

More of what was said last night in parts of the conversation:

NW: What you have done and are still doing shows complete disrespect for yourself, NW5, me, and our marriage. What kind of love is that?
WW:...silence...

WW:I still don't know if I want to be in this marriage. I dont know if it is in my heart.
NW: How could you have had those feelings for me when you were giving them to someone else?

WW: You're a great person and father, you deserve someone better than me.
NW: Let me decide what I want. I don't know if I this will work out but I'd like to work on it and see what happens.

WW: I love NW5 with all my heart.
NW: Ok.
WW: Tears up and says nothing.

I'm more confused about the A now. Definetely requires more investigation. I think there may be a whole lot more going on than I was originally thinking. She wouldn't talk any specifics. I think I broke through some of the fog last night but it's a small start.

What would you recommend she/we read as far as books are concerned? SAA, HNHN, Fall in Love Stay in Love, something else? I have her curiosity at the moment and I want to maximize that interest.

Even if she reads your thread you can still follow through with your plans. Keep the VAR and GPS there, but don't disclose where they are. Most likely she will just go deeper and you will have to try something different. My wife found I was recording her chats online, she then started to call instead of chat, thats all.

I wouldnt expect your WW to sit and read this site all day. She has an affair she has to tend to, and it takes up a lot of time. Lets hope that she doesn't find it.

I would recommend that you immediately schedule a coaching session with Steve Harley and let her talk to him. Strike while the iron is hot.

You have had my interest in this since you first had this theory. I would like to know more. You may have some of on your Wall thread, but links in that thread wern't working.

I have no way of fixing the links. Only the admin can do that. This forum has had its problems over the years as have most all forums. Many past links are broken. The linked posts themselves can be found with some searching.

But no, it is not part of the wall thread. I have thought of a way to make an attempt to tell you without a private email.

The closest that I have ever seen as several posts in a thread by cruisegonebad, who had an affair on a cruise boat with a cruise crew member. She was vulnerable. The truth came out many years later. Her husband, if memory serves was waffling between leaving and staying. I dunno if he ever made up his mind.

The posts about which I make reference was a diatribe by a former cruise boat crewman how many of those who staff cruise boats prey on the vulnerable and the techniques used. By vulnerable, I mean unhappy, naive, young or just immature women/girls and/or who are looking for a bit of anonymous excitement in their otherwise dull life. And who might be susceptible to same if approached in the right way. Frequently the game is to suggest fun that the target would never dream of engaging with husband.

That is close, but not exactly what I have in mind either.

MiM said that OM was likely bragging about his accomplishments to his buddies. This would indicate, if you think about it, as a trophy gained in some sort of mutual game that buddies and he played. That one is dead on accurate, imho. Remember endorphins, those reward brain chemicals are part of everyone.

I cannot and will not go any farther. Sorry.

If this is true, and I don't know if it is or isn't, there is a possibility that your wife will seek the fun again unless she is now ready to admit what was really going on, what she got out of it and leave it behind her for all time.

Larry

I could be wrong, nw, but I suspect that, if she's knee-deep in an A, she's not going to be interested in checking out pro-marriage websites. I think you're safe.

Honestly, you are putting the cart before the horse. You need to kill the affair and establish NC w/ OM before you even think about counseling. Who is OM? How has she been contacting him? Has his wife been told? These are all things that need to be ascertained before you start talking about counseling or marriage building.

You need to get NC established and get your WW through withdrawal. Then after a couple months of withdrawal/plan A activities, then you can start pushing the counseling and MB. My thoughts are this guy is probably just using your WW for sex, so if you inform his wife, he'll quickly disappear. That is, unless he works with your WW or otherwise comes into contact with her for some reason. Then you will have to address that issue. You know nothing more than you knew yesterday except that your WW now knows, so she can cover her tracks better.

I didn't even think about that!

A session is scheduled w/Jennifer for Sunday.

That is great news! She is very good. My wife was simply not willing to listen but it seems yours may be somewhat ready to. I assume you will both be talking to her?

I totally agree with jmwc95

You need to find out who this man is, so you can expose!

I'd guess she will be contacting the OM today to warn him.

Regarding this site, does she know your posting name on here?

Be very careful about clearing the history on your computer before she comes home! Make it a habit after each use of the computer.

There are other sites related to infidelity. I would leave one of them open on the computer for her to find. Hopefully she will search there for you instead.

Please listen to the vets on here, they offer great advice.

Hi NW,

So have you exposed the A to the OM's wife? You're not going to be able to get your W to commit to anything as long as she's still ivolved in the A.

Semper Fi,

RIF

I know less about the OM and A now (STOOOPID), I don't think it was who I thought. She said that she would talk about it in couseling. I think Larry is on to something about the A. If that is correct then I suspect that the OM wouln't be married. The impression that I got from her last night is that the OM isn't married.

All my tools are still safe and in place.

She was certainly acting differantly this morning. She looked confused, shameful, remorseful. I think she may be realizing how her actions may affect NW5. She was especially lovey to him.

I may just be hopeful that she is seeing it this way but there was something different.

That's the plan for now. I'm going to talk to her tonight about it.

She asked me last night, "What should "I" do now?". I took that question as, I don't know how I feel for you and I don't know if it's worth giving up my fantasy. She wanted to read what I've been looking into lately, so I take that as a good sign.

Personally I think she put some kind of drugs into your food. You need to follow the MB plan. Keep snooping and expose the affair.

I agree totally but I don't think I have much of a choice now. She's at least interested in MC, so I would like to fuel that. She wouldn't tell me any of the specifics of the A last night. She doesn't know what to do so I don't think that making any demands at this point would be good.

Are you suggesting that I should tell her that NC must be in place before I do any couselling with her?

Haha, That is still my plan and I am still working towards that.

Hi NW,

Mrs. RIF said that one of the reasons for her multiple A's was for the "thrill" and "excitement"... The "rush" that she would get by seeing how much she could get away with without getting caught...

I didn't learn about any of this until over 10 years after her last A when she finally confessed her multiple A's.

I would bet that your W is just talking with you about MC in order to "throw you off her trail"... You can't start MC or rebuilding until your W has ended the A(s) and established NC. Any attempt at MC or "rebuilding" will just be putting a band aid on a sucking chest wound.

Keep snooping. Keep working on your plan-A and try to avoid any reltionship talks... Relationship talks at this point are pretty much useles. You know that she's involved in an A... so whether you want to believe it or not, you can NOT trust a word that she says right now.

I know that this is hard to hear, but you need to trust us... you WANT to believe the "best" because that is what you want now, more than anything else in the world... If you are anything like I was, you will tell yourself that "everything is fine now" because she's willing to go to MC, or she's willing to "talk"... until she has ended the A and established NC, you can not start rebuilding.

Semper Fi,

RIF

Hi RIF

I am hearing you and it makes complete sense. I know that I need to stay on my toes. I'm excited because I think she saw through some of the fog last night, but is is still there.

Thank you.

I'm telling you that MC is useless while she's in an active affair. She may talk things out with you in counseling, and then leave counseling to go have sex w/ OM in a parking garage. You may think you are getting somewhere, but while she is still in contact w/ OM, you aren't. You need to find out who OM is, so you keep ensure NC is established.

Why do you think OM is single? If OM was married, so you think WW would let you know so you could tell his BW? He may be "in the process of getting divorce" (I'm using quotes because that's waywards always tell each other) which means he's married. Even if he's single you can expose to his family and friends, or employer if they work together. Counseling isn't as important as finding out about OM, so you can end all contact. Right now your WW might be in damage control mode, so she'll humor you and go to counseling, even if she has every intention of continuing with OM. This may buy her more time for her plans.

Your primary objective, soldier, is to find OM and ensure he ends all contact w/ your WW.

Insisting that NC be established is not an unreasonable demand. I would insist upon it. Counselling will do you no good while OM is waiting for her in the wings.

I am concerned that she refuses to talk to you about the A unless it's with the MC. Why is that?

I was saying the call with Jennifer might be a very good thing as it may help WW to hear Jennifer tell her that she needs to go NC and that if she works for it, love can be restored.

It may reinforce what NW is trying to show her and may be the push she needs.

I've heard that the coaching center is very good at reaching waywards and getting them to commit to the M.

Hi NW



I don't know you and I don't know your W. I DO know that when I was faced with an adulterous wife, that I wanted more than anything to hold my family together for our daughter's sake... I wanted that more than anything in the world. I wanted it so bad that I was willing to cling to ANYTHING that Mrs. RIF said, ...and I was willing to believe her lies.

I know that you hope that she's seeing things more clearly, and you hope that by talking to her that you can "bring her back".... but until the A(s) are exposed, and NC is established, I truely believe that she will do anything, and say anything to you in order to keep getting her "fix" from her OM.

She may "stop" (for a while) and become the model wife... she may be the best mother ever... she may say and do all the "right" things (for a while)... but it will only be long enough to lull you into "trusting" her again...

Until the A(s)are exposed, and she has NC over a period of time that will allow the "thrill" of the A(s) to die off... then the A(s) will most likely continue under more secrecy and deceit.


Semper Fi,

RIF

By all means let her keep the appointment with Jennifer.

But quit drinking the wife's koolaid. I'm guessing that she has become so willing (in a 24 hour period) because she knows she has been caught and wants to protect her married affair partner.

Single guys don't use parking garages. He is married and has limited time. And I'm betting it is the guy she works with.

One thing I've learned is a saying. If a WW mouth is moving, they're lying. You literally just found out. The OM may very well be the person you think it is. She may be trying to protect the A and the OM (isn't it sad how that works).

DO NOT take anything she says to you at face value. I agree with everyone here and continue with your PI work. She is in the fog and you're never gonna get the truth. Affairs thrieve in being secret. Find out the truth and EXPOSE! I like to think that affairs and OM's are like cockroaches. You turn on a light and they scatter. Normally, the same thing happens when you bring an affair to light. Good luck!

Ok, I'm getting it. Thanks for putting it back into perspective for me.

I like the point that was made about why won't she tell me about the A. It's all adding up and if it weren't for you guys I wouldn't have seen it. Basicaly the only thing that has changed is that she knows that I know and she may talk to Jennifer on Sunday.

Thank you so much.

Exactly what did she admit too? Did she tell you it is a sexual adultery?

She is lying by the way.

Excellent point. A guy won't be using a parking garage if (1) he's single and (2) he's got nothing to lose. I'm guessing he's either M'd and/or his job will be at risk if the A is exposed.

I'm guessing to that either it's the guy she works with, or one of his friends (assuming OM#1 shared the goods that she was an easy target).

Finally, I really want you to consider this: I think a lot of us BHs get caught up in the "damage-control/must-fix-this" cycle on D-Day, and when recovery actually starts and the dust has cleared, and things have started to settle down, we start wondering if we really made the right choice. I think over 70% of Ms end when the W was the unfaithful partner, and I don't think that's only because of the WW. I'd suggest that you really ask yourself if you could really be comfortable in a permanent relationship with some who has cheated on you so badly.

Yep. Somehow, I missed the details of which parking garage it was, what was on the VAR, and does Mrs NW know about them.

Also just wondering what kind of work your wife does? Is it a very specialized job?

It's OM who she used to work with, married CD gift guy. I got her to tell me about it (I was very sneeky btw) and I got it on my VAR. I alo got a 20min converstion today w/her talking to OM. They were game planning what to say to me tonight and she did say I love you. Awesome!!! His voice is not audible.

Here's my evidence:
-GPS shows her in the parking garrage Tuesday @ 4:16pm. I think I have a text saying she left work @ 3:50pm.

-VAR for the parking garrage (Tuesday) has alot of background conversation and moans, but OM must have walked up to the car at the end of the encounter because I did get his voice tell her to be careful.

-Panties x 2 and skirt. I ordered the kit and it hasn't come in. There are visible stains.

-VAR of her phone conversation today with OM game planning what to tell me tonight. She is VERY worried. OM voice is not audible and she never says his name.

-VAR of our conversation tonight. She admitted to giving OM oral sex in parking garrage.

Is this enough?

-I will almost guarantee that there will be some sort of contact tomorrow either by phone or parking deck, explaining to OM that they DON"T need to worry about any REVEAL.


This is where I was sneeky. She wanted to talk tonight and was trying to put me at ease (big time fog). I told her she was lying to me after what she told me yesterday. It made her mad and I asked her if I could see her phone. She agreed.

First thing I look at is the missed calls and there is number there that I make her call on speaker. Turns out it was nothing but she was noticable worried. She got mad and went upsatairs to bed saying that she is going to see a lawyer on Monday.

I go upstairs and tell that I need closure or otherwise I will keep digging untill I'm satisfied.

NW: All I want to do is to be able to look you in the eyes 5 years from now and not be pissed. I want a divorce too. I just want the truth and I'll walk away. You know I know alot already.

She is satisfied and confesses to oral sex a couple of times since I've returned from Afghan, that's all. Now You know and I know this is BS so that is why I am convinced that there will be contact tomorrow. She will explain to OM not to worry anymore.

We are very friendly now and are hugging and she is crying about the whole mess up of us getting married for the wrong reasons, maybe she's telling the truth here. I also convinced her after the confession, not to go to a lawyer on Monday.

NW: We both are in agreement on 50/50 with NW5. Let's share a lawyer and use a moderator to figure it all out. That way we save $$ and the lawyer is just there to make sure the paperwork gets filed.

She agrees and will cancel her app for Monday. I will sched and let her know.

Your thoughts?

Thanks too all for getting my head straight earlier.

NW


Ok, I can now be blunt. I am not the only one with a suspicion. She is a trophy, probably nothing more to OM. And yes, the OM is married as you discovered. No need for parking garages if he is single.

Look for drama when you start the process of divorce. OM will likely dump her, or not, depending on her real feelings for him and if she starts to put pressure on him. He may just be a trophy for her as well. Be on guard for her changing her mind about anything and everything. And others have said, but just to emphasize it, if her lips are moving she is going be telling you a lie.

I recommend you proceed at warp speed or faster to get her signature on something where you protect your relationship with NW5. It looks like she is doing and saying stuff to protect the OM. Take advantage of that to protect your relationship with your son and to heck with anything other than that until you get it locked up. Past that, who cares? Yea, I know, hard to take.

Larry

NW- So have YOU decided what YOU want to do yet? I'm not being pushy, I really am curious. Do you want divorce or do you want to recover/rebuild your M?

I would (and I think most others) would back you up either way.

Good question, I still have love for her, tanks getting low though. I still want to try and work it out. I am pretty sure that I will not be able to Plan a for and extended period.

After all this lying.....lying.....lying.....I don't know.

I would need extraordinary effort from WW to be honest with you. I will have to see what happens after the reveal. I don't know how she's going to take me lying to her to get a confession, I'm preparing for the worse. I really hope that her family backs me up and OM close/real family have alot of influence.

There is still hope...

NW,

The choices you make at this point will have an affect on the choices she makes...

and vice versa...

If you don't want a divorce, then don't talk about a divorce at all.

She might TALK about going to a lawyer but you only buy into that discussion you see it first hand. If YOU want to save the marriage then FIGHT for the marriage. If you want a divorce, just go get your own lawyer and file first.

If you don't want a divorce don't talk about divorce. When she brings it up, change the subject (Want a cookie?)

If you want a divorce or think that is where it is headed use her idiocy and fog against her while you have the chance. Shoot for FULL custodial custody of NW5. Hold out for at least 50/50 but try for it all citing her miserable excuse for decision making as the reason.

But again, if you don't want a divorce and want to save the marriage, when she talks about it you...



change the subject...

What I am telling you and keep repeating in hopes that you get my point is that if you don't want a divorce and want to fight for your marriage, develop a plan that you can execute no matter what she attempts to do or does or says or whatever...

Call Steve Harley for help in trying to get the plan together or brainstorm with the mart folks here.

If you want to try to save your marriage the things you do have to leverage everything in that direction. Talking divorce at all is counterproductive if you are trying to save your marriage.

Is your evidence for your divorce lawyer or do you plan to expose this sordid affair to blow the lid off of the whole thing and improve the odds of you coming out on top in this?

If you are in Plan A, then you need to be the best NW you can become and get to it quickly. You need to always be aware of meeting her ENs and avoiding all love busters. You need to make NW the best choice for a husband now and in the future while making the affair as hard as possible to continue.

Focus your energy on what NW wants and skip trying to figure this crap she's giving you out. She wants you to back off and THAT is why threats of divorce happen, to get you to leave her alone to have oral sex with this guy in the parking deck...

Work up a PLAN so that you do things on purpose, for a purpose and with complete sense of purpose instead of reacting to what she does and says.

What would you do if you weren't afraid?

Mark

My evidence is to blow the lid off this thing and expose, and a cookie sounds pretty good right now..

I have a call set up with Jennifer on Sunday, WW will not be in attendance. A good solid plan is what I need. I never specificly thought about not letting her actions dictate my plan.

Hear is what I have come up with for the email that I will send Family and friends of WW

Dear Family and Friends of WW,

I am NW, WW's husband. For those of you that I have not met I am sorry to introduce myself this way. WW is commiting adultery with a married man, OM. This adulterous affair is on going and has been going on since before WW and I were married. WW confessed to me on 15 Apr 2010, we were married Day Mo 2005.

I am contacting you for two reasons:
1. I ask for your help to stop this affair before it ruins two families, marriages, and hurts many people. It may already be too late. If you have any influence over WW, I ask for your help to have WW completely break all contact with OM.

2. Adultery thrives on lies, deceipt, and darkness. By telling you this, I hope to bring the affair into the light and destroy it.

WW will likely downplay my accusations and may say that I am not right in the head and telling lies. She may say that I am acting this way becasue she wants a D. She plans on divorcing me to continue her relationship with OM. I assure you that I have proof and I will provide it at your request.

WW and I may have gotten M'd for the wrong reasons, but there is no chance that a M can be happy and healthy built on the foundation this one was started on. I still have love for WW and I do not want her to leave. I don't know if our marriage can ever survive this even if WW fully recommits to it. I would like to find out.

Please let me know if there is anything that I can clarify for you. Thank you for the help.

NW.


What do you think? I can't sleep and have been thinking about this letter all night. I'm not sure how to word the one for OMW and mother.

Hi NW,

Sounds like a great letter!

I will second what Mark said... If you don't wanta divorce, then don't bring it up. If you want a divorce, then strike hard and fast.

The choice is your's to make... we will support you with whatever decision you make.

Semper Fi,

RIF

It'd be enough for me to boot her serial cheating [censored] out...but that's me.

Yes, I like maritalbliss' version. No need to mention about getting married for the wrong reason. You are married and a family - anything else doesn't matter.

Thank you MB,
I was very conflicted about my motivations to reveal. I think now it is because some of my wording. The things you edited were the very things that I was leerie about. Thank you so much!

Any advise on what I should say to OMW and Mother? I need to be very tactful here.

"I still want to try and work it out."

Then why talk about D? Don't!

Expose OMW.

Say the same things to OMW and mother as you say in your letter.
OM and WW are having an affair.
I have proof.
I love my WW and want to repair my M.

Yep. Keep it simple.

Sign your name and give them some way to contact you, preferably via phone (not your cell.)

You really have me thinking here Mark. If I weren't afraid of loss would I be here on this site at all?

I'm very confused right now. Should I/we file? Should I proceed with whatever the plan it is for the day?

I think I'm in the wrong mind set again. What path I take after the reveal will probably depend on what WW does after she cools down. This is not a good plan correct?

I just don't think I have the energy to go on with Plan A if she is unwilling. I also have serious doubts about what our marriage would look like even if she puts for EXTRAordinary effort. Maybe I'm projecting and that isn't good either.

I look forward to my converation w/Jennifer....

You say you want to remain M.
That means no filing (duh).
It also means Plan A.
It also means a marathon, and keeping your eye on your long distance goal -- NOT the "plan of the day".
It also means sticking to your plan and your goal REGARDLESS of what she does.

I guess that's the thing. I don't know if I want to remain M. I have said it but I question my reasons. Therefore I question my motivation to move forward with Plan A. Am I doing this because if it doesn't work out we can still D?

Maybe because I am still in shock and hurt over the A?
Maybe because I fear being alone, and loss?
Maybe because I am angry for all the lies, deceipt, manipulation and I want retaliation?

NW- As I have said before, YOU have to decide what it is YOU want BEFORE you act. Maybe maintain a Plan A until you speak with Jennifer, but you must decide soon.

FWIW, I am going to paste my exposure letters that I had used. First, this was the letter that I sent to OMW:

"OMW,

I am sorry to have to write to you today but I have some information I feel you have the right to know. Your husband, OM, is having an affair with my wife, Pinky.

My name is SoL and I live in Hometown, USA. I have been trying very hard to reach you and have finally found your address. We need to talk. They are at least having an emotional affair and I have proof. I�m not certain if they have ever met in person, but it may be possible. They met online playing poker at Pokerstars.net. They now are emotionally involved and are probably having �cyber-sex�. They also talk/webcam over the computer. Over the last couple of months she and your husband have been talking and texting daily at all hours of the day. They have spoken over 400 hours in the last month. I have seen emails where they have expressed their �love� towards each other and talks of the future together. I have seen texts between the two of them that were graphically sexual in nature. I�m not sure how much you know about this or how much you want to know. I know Pinky went out of town around 29 October through 2 November this year. It may be possible that they met in Orlando if your husband was away at that time. Pinky claims that they are �just friends� but the things I have found prove that it is way more than a friendship. She tells me that they are talking to each other about their marital problems with me and you. I can tell you that it is far beyond what normal friends talk about. I also know that they have sent gifts to each other of a sexual nature.

I still love my wife. We have been married over 13 years and have 2 beautiful children together. I want to save our marriage, but it takes two. I am asking for your help in breaking this affair up. I�m not sure what you want out of your marriage but I feel you need to know regardless. I will be more than happy to send you the proof that I have (phone records and email/chat). I would ask that you not approach OM with this information until you and I talk/email because I have a pretty strong way to end the affair that involves not letting them know we know right away. Maybe we can help each other through this situation. I can be reached at the cell phone below or via either email address. Please reply as soon as you can. I am really sorry to have to tell you about this.

SoL"

This is the message I sent to OM's facebook friends and family:

"Dear Facebook friend of OM,

I am the husband of WW in hometown, USA. Your friend, OM is having an adulterous affair with my wife of 13 years. We have a 9 year old son and a 7 year old son. I am writing you to ask you to use your influence to persuade OM to leave my family alone.

While I was deployed serving my country in Afghanistan, OM and WW met online. This affair has been conducted mostly over the internet since June 2009 and he may possibly have come to America on October 30, 2009 and see my wife in person. My wife and I have two very heartbroken sons, DS9 and DS7, whose lives have been turned upside down the weeks before Christmas because of their mother's affair with OM.

I am asking that you use your influence to persuade OM to leave my wife alone and concentrate on his own family and wife OMW. There is no future with his affair with my wife because he will be eternally hated by our sons and by my wife's family. Please urge your friend to do the decent thing for a change and end his affair with my wife.

In case this man denies his affair, I am more than willing to provide evidence to anyone who asks. Additionally, I would ask that someone please call OM's parents and ask them to email me at email@address. I would also like to hear from OMW if she is willing. I would like to speak to them personally. OM has represented himself as "pending divorce" in order to seduce my wife. If this is not true, I would appreciate the true facts. I'm not sure what Phillip may tell you about me but I assure you I am a peacful man who only wants to save my marriage and protect my family.

Thank you for your help. WW's loving husband,

SoL"

Again- decide what you want for you and then take the appropriate ACTIONS. I wish you the best and you know I am here for you. Call me anytime too.

SoL

Hi NW,


I'm sure that you have already thought of at least 1,000 different scenarios of "how it will turn out". From the absolute "best" possible way to the "worst".

You will have various posters tell you different things that happened to them whether they divorced, or tried to rebuild. Some were sucessful in rebuilding, others were not.

Some here will tell you that if your WW is a serial Adulteress, that you should just walk away and not even try. I will say that if your W has had multiple A's that it IS harder to rebuild... and the pain and work that it will take from BOTH of you is tremendous... but it CAN be done.

Mrs. RIF and I are living proof that you can rebuild a M after multiple A's. I'm not sharing this with you in order to "sway" you one way or another. Only YOU can decide what you want to do. What I wanted to share with you is that IF you want to save your M and rebuild, you need to go into this with both eyes open.

1 - You can't do this alone. At some point, your W must end the affair(s) and establish NC. She will most likely NOT be a willing partcipant at first, and she will want to "move on" much faster than you. If she is not willing to rebuild, then you are just wasting your time.

2 - You will find that this rebuilding process is just as much about YOU as it is her and the A(s). This was very hard for me as I knew beyond any shadow of a doubt that I was the one that was "wronged", so why was I having to do anything at all?

3 - You can't "force" your W through the rebuilding process. She will have to search out many of the "truths" on her own without you pushing her or threatening her. I found that Mrs. RIF wouldn't respond or rebuild until I made it "safe" for her to start opening up. Again, this is more about YOU than your W... and it's not an easy step.

4 - After all this work, your M may NOT survive...

If you are willing to recognize that this is at least a two YEAR process, and that it will require BOTH of you to learn and grow way beyond where you are now, and that it will involve more work and more pain than you've ever felt in your life... and you still want to give it a try... then we're here for you!

If you think this through and decide that you would rather divorce, then nobody here will try to talk you out of it. That is your right as a betrayed husband... and yes, there are many good folks here that can guide you through this process too.

By the grace of Jesus Christ, Mrs. RIF and I were able to rebuild our M and I can honestly say that I never dreamed that our M could ever be this fullfilling. It CAN be done, but it's not easy...

Semper Fi,

RIF

I must do this. If I don't then I will forever regret it.

Here are revised versions of my letters. Have at them.

Dear Family and Friends of WW,

I am NW, WW�s husband. For those of you whom I have not met I am sorry to introduce myself with this terrible news. WW is committing adultery with a married man, OM. WW confessed to me on 15 Apr 2010, but has not ended the affair.

I am contacting you for three reasons:
1. I ask for your help to stop this affair before it ruins two families, marriages, and hurts many people. I want to save our marriage, but it takes two. You are someone who is looked up to by WW and I ask for your help to have WW end the adultery and completely break all contact with OM so that recovery may have roots to blossom.

2. WW intends to seek legal counsel. I urge you for help to stop this process until she ends the affair with OM and breaks all contact with him.

3. Adultery thrives on lies, deceit, and darkness. By telling you this, I hope to bring the affair into the light and destroy it.

WW will likely downplay my accusations and may say that I am not right in the head and telling lies. I assure you that I have proof and I will provide it at your request.

I still have love for WW; we have been married for 5 years and have a beautiful 5 year old son, NW5.

Please let me know if there is anything that I can clarify for you. Thank you for the help.

NW
pnone #


Dear Family and Friends of OM,

I am NW, WW�s husband. I have not met you and I am sorry to introduce myself with this terrible news. WW is committing adultery with OM. WW confessed to me on 15 Apr 2010, but has not ended the affair.

I am contacting you for two reasons:
1. I ask for your help to stop this affair before it ruins two families, marriages, and hurts many people. I want to save our marriage, but it takes two. I ask for your help to have OM end the affair and completely break all contact with WW so that recovery may have roots to blossom.

2. Adultery thrives on lies, deceit, and darkness. By telling you this, I hope to bring the affair into the light and destroy it.

OM will likely downplay my accusations and may say that I am not right in the head and telling lies. I assure you that I have proof and I will provide it at your request.

I still have love for my wife. We have been married for 5 years and have a beautiful 5 year old son.

Please let me know if there is anything that I can clarify for you. I am really sorry to have to tell you this.

NW
email add

I'd delete the part about "WW will likely downplay my accusations..." You don't know what she will or will not do. And, if WW gets a copy of this, that's a big fat DJ. Just cut that sentence.

ITA. I thought about that, too.

Hey NW,

How are you doing this weekend? Give us an update when you get a chance!

Semper Fi,

RIF

My weekend was pretty good in all.

Friday I had an angry outburst and nearly gave up on the whole thing. I almost handed the stick over to her. I just couldn't deal with the constant lying.

Saturday it was boys day in. Had a blast!! Fixed the toilet also.

Sunday I cleaned the downstairs, mowed the lawn, went to the circus with WW and NW5, and talked to Jemmifer (just me).

The session went well. I wouldn't say that I have renewed hope but she certainly has a way to explain things, which is just what I needed. She helped me outline a plan, course of action, controlling my LB's and answered all my questions. We really focused on how to handle my LB's and Plan A. We went over an hour and she even called me back after she was done with her next appointment so she could be sure that I understood everything.

For WW, she said that she has broken contact although she has given me no evidence to support this claim. I know now that there is nothing that I can say to her or really do that will clear the fog. A heavy dose of reality may be the only cure.

Hey NW!

Thanks for the update and so glad that you had a good weekend.

Semper fi,

RIF

So I revised my reveal letter to WW family a little. This one is specifically to WW's direct family and is more personal. Your thoughts?


Dear Family,

I am sorry to be the bearer of this terrible news. WW is committing adultery with a married man, OM, a former co-worker. WW confessed to me on 15 Apr 2010, but has not ended the affair.

I am contacting you for two reasons:
1. I ask for your help to stop this affair before it ruins two families, marriages, and hurts many people. I want to save our marriage. You are all looked up to by WW and I ask for your help to have WW completely break all contact with OM so that we can recover our marriage.

2. Adultery thrives on lies, deceit, and darkness. By telling you this, I hope to bring the affair into the light and destroy it.

I assure you that I have proof and I will provide it at your request.

I still have love for WW; we have been married for 5 years and you all know our beautiful 5 year old son, NW5. It is my desire to rebuild our marriage but this cannot happen until WW breaks all contact with OM. It is my hope for WW to be in a happy, healthy, and loving marriage with the father of her child.

Please let me know if there is anything that I can clarify for you. I am sorry to have to tell you this over e-mail; I do not know all of your phone numbers. Please call me if you wish to talk. Thank you for all of your love and support.

NW


I have a great relationship with WW's close family and I think it would be more profound if it were more personal in nature.

This is good. Send it out.

I like it.

Me too. Jennifer wasn't too sure about sending one out to co-works as the OM isn't employed there anymore. Other than that there aren't too many friends that this would have any affect on. Her best friend would be a lost cause and would more than likely back WW on any decision. I know that they don't say good things about me through texts.

I just sent the OMW a FB message. I noticed she lists herself as "in a relationship with OM". A few days ago she was saying that she was married to him. I think that I will send WW's family my note tomorrow morning. I'm really curious what OMwoman will say.

Well I sent my exposure letter to WW family this morning. I sent it about 45 min ago. Last night I sent the OMWoman the letter via FB. No word back from either as of yet.

Reading Gerkaguard's & SoL's thread has been very helpful for me as to better prepare what to expect and how to handle the exposure and any talks that may come up.

Reading OMWoman's Wall on FB is a little worrysome though. It looks as if they are on the rocks so to speak, and OMWoman appears to be the one who is fighting for their relationship. OM posted a few things telling her to keep it up.

Jennifer did tell me that the OM is going to have to LB for WW to start to see through the fog, so the OM relationship troubles may give him more chances for LB.

I really hope that my In-Laws are as supportive to this as SoL's. We will have to wait and see.

NW,

Do you know where OMW lives? Do you have her phone number? I really think an actual conversation would be more effective there. It would be great if you two could work together and 'compare notes'. You may also consider trying to direct her to this site as well. You know first hand how helpful that can be!

I wish you the best with the in-laws too. Just remember that when exposing, stay honest and approach it as a plea for help. Steer clear of 'villianizing' or bad-mouthing your WW. The truth alone is enough for most people to understand what is going on.

Brace yourself for the post-exposure tornado. She will say all sorts of scary things. Weather the storm and stay calm. Change the subject, but DO NOT LB!

I know you've heard it but it bears repeating- your marriage can survive her anger. It will not survive the third-party.

Stay strong and in time, the OM will LB plenty. Affairs will self destruct on their own. You are just helping it to disolve a little more quickly.

I just got a FB message from OWoman. She said that I Better not be F'in w/her as she doesn't have time for this. I replied and only told her about what WW confessed to so frar. That is enough to start the process at least.

I told her that I am sorry to have to ell her this again and referanced this site for strength and hope. So I am in contact with her now.

No news yet from the ILs yet. Thanks for reminder, they are HER family after all. I know the storm is comming, I hope that my training will take over and not my emotions. I am preparing myself the best that I can.

You just never know how they're going to react. Sometimes they suspected and are (kind of) glad to have their suspicions confirmed. Sometimes they knew but are in denial and get really angry. Sometimes they are blindsided and devastated.

Good job on doing that, though. OMW needs to know what he's up to with your WW. It affects her just as much as it affects you. What she does with that knowledge/info now is up to her.

I just got an FB message from the OMW. She just told me that her OM is 19yrs old!!!! That would mean that he worked with WW when he was 14yrs old...What are the chances? Same area (edit: general area, people around here tend to say they are from CHi-town when they are not), same name? I am more confused now than ever!!!

I need to call her employer and get more details about a previous employee.....

Maybe the OM is the 19 year old's dad?

I have done alot of investigating into the OM, so far NOTHING!! He does not have a 19yo son. I tried all the internet sites and all have come up with no phone #'s. I got a few address's but that doesn't help too much as I don't know the OMW name. I hired a PI, let's see what happens.

So her family knows about it now. She was very angry yesterday. After I put NW to bed, I was doing dishes and I turned the radio on (Lying eyes by the Eagles was playing if you can believe it!!). She confronted me and said her piece.

WW: How could you do this?
NW: I was going to ask you the same thing.
WW: Feel better now? Feel like the better person now?
NW: No.
WW: What did you hope to acomplish?
NW: Did you read the letter?
WW: You have serious issues.
NW: I know this.
WW: So now my entire knows about this, thanks....

She then went upstairs befor I could respond. I let her go and after an hour I went upstairs and asked if she was ok and if there was anything that I could get for her. She said she was fine.

I called FIL this morning.
NW: Did you get my email?
FIL: You're going about this the wrong way NW.
NW: I am not trying to hurt WW or your family in any way.
FIL: It's a two way street NW.
NW: Yes sir, I know that. I have done my fair share. I am aware of them and I am trying my best to correct them.
FIL: WW told us that she ended the A.
NW: She told me that too, I have reasons to think otherwise.
FIL: We raised our children to make decisions on their own. I suggest you two work this out and see counseling.
NW: I agree, she will not talk to a MC at all.
FIL: I don't know what to tell you NW.....

So after hearing that I composed another email and restated my case talking about the points from conversation w/FIL. I am really hoping that MIL and S/BIL jump on board.

WW didn't go to work today. I believe that she went to see a lawyer. Her car was there for about 2 1/2 hours. I called my lawyer and I am waiting for a call back.

That's about it for now. I guess I just wait, Meet EN, avoid LB, and see what happens w/the lawyer stuff.

Hi NW,

I exposed to Mrs. RIF's family and they blamed me for her A... Said that I 'taught her how to drink' and that was main reason...

If her parents aren't willing to help end the A, then don't have anything to do with them for now. I'm not saying that you should disown them, but for now, don't ask for their help.

You're doing good... and you're right, no Love Busters and try to meet her ENs!

Semper Fi,

RIF

It's just very frustrating. Jennifer helped me write this letter to WW. It is an outline to our new marriage. I gave it to WW Monday:

"WW, It is my hearts desire to have a new marriage where we can sustain true romantic love. Through my reading, learning and self-reflection I have had an epiphany. There is a path we can take to have a new life together. It is filled with romantic love, protection, happiness, admiration, and affection. My hope is that we can make these promises together and follow through with them.

A promise to be the source of each other's happiness.
A promise of protection; to avoid unhappiness.
A promise to spend at least 15hrs a week together.
A promise to give us a fully transparent lifestyle.
A promise to make all our decisions with mutual enthusiatic agreement.
A promise that we will not let anyone else meet out emotional needs.
A promise that we will have no contact with past lovers and people we have dated.

I would love it if you would take my hand down this path. I am commited to this path for you, me and NW5. It is one that can turn our every fantasy into reality. We have the oportunity to have an incredible marriage. A marriage where NW5's mother and father are able to sustain true romantic love.

Please let me know if you want to know more about this path...."


Jennifer told me that WW would probably ignore this note, and WW did. She even tore it up last night while I was doing dishes. I taped it up and left it on the counter. She saw it this morning and threw it away.

Jennifer also told me that whenever WW talks about the relationship I should refer WW to that letter. I will write a letter similar to this every couple of weeks before WW moves out.

PI just called me back and is meeting with me tomorrow with all his info on OM. He's only charging me $55.

Wait and hope........

Isn't that awesome? Most people don't hire a PI because they think it would be too expensive, but I'm sure people would jump to get tons of info on their OP for that low of a price.

Hey NW - So what did you learn about the OM from the PI?

Semper Fi,

RIF

And if the PI worked out, can you email me his name?

I'm trying to get info on an OW for a poster here and have tried EVERYTHING and come up with nothing.

The PI gave me what I asked for. He gave me pretty much all the public info for OM. Current and previous residences, phone numbers for those. Driving and registration records, I know what kind of car and the license info for the car. Known family and possible associates.

There is a lot of info, I have a few good leads and I am still sorting through it all. He had all this info in one day and drove 35 miles the next day to give it to me. He only charged me $55, I gave him $70.

S/BIL called me yesterday. We had a nice talk that lasted an hour. They wanted me to know that they are hearing me and feel my pain. They called on behalf of all the other S/MIL (not FIL), said they didn�t want to all bombard me and wanted to circle the wagons so to speak to make sure they are all on the same page.

They were very supportive and said that they are there to support us all. SIL is a counselor for the county and deals with this type of thing every day. She gave me some very good info on how to talk to NW5 about this whole mess. After the conversation she emailed me this:

SIL: Thanks for the good conversation this morning. BIL and I were happy to talk with you and hear your honest words. We can imagine that this time is very painful for you and WW and we are hoping that the work you both are doing will lead you to a healthy and safe resolution for all 3 of you. Good luck on this ongoing journey and thanks again for your candor this morning.

My Reply:
NW: Thank you so much for taking time to call and talk to me. It is very comforting knowing that someone is hearing you and may understand where you are coming from. Sometimes the truth hurts, but addressing and dealing with the issues is the first step (I believe) to healthy healing and recovery. I don't know what road recovery will take, but either way I intend to have my head up at the end of that road.

I believe that they felt and appreciated my honesty and openness. WW�s family has been through this before with another SIL, except other SIL was the BS. Her H left and married his AP. I don�t know what kind of support will come but I certainly feel better about contacting them.

As for WW, she is withdrawn more now than ever. After NW5 is in bed, she goes to bed and watches TV. Every night I go up and ask her if she is doing ok and if needs anything. I have to ask her questions two times before I get a response from her, and it is always a very short answer.

She did text me this morning asking me if I made it into work OK this morning and if I need a ride home. I ride my bicycle 20 miles round trip to work every day. We have bad weather today.

She is still sticking to that she ended the A. She keeps a death grip on her purse though and still wants to sign the lease on 08 May and still has no interest in recovery.

WW is going to see her enabling best friend this weekend 2 � hours away. By enabling, I mean that her BF will support WW in anything, as long as WW is happy. I don�t know how I feel about this. I think it will be a huge LB if I tell her she shouldn�t go.

Jennifer told me that OM is going to have to do the LBing for the fog to clear, so I don�t see too much of an issue with her going. On the other hand she may return even farther engrossed in the fantasy. BF may be WW�s only safe haven. I know that there is nothing that I can do at this point to end the A (other than expose to OMW) but I�m torn about this weekend.

Your thoughts?

You do not allow her to remove the child from the marital home without litigating it in court. If she moves out of the marital home, then I would hit her with legal separation and ask for custody. Hit her smack in the face with the consequences. Strategize with your lawyer the best path forward. Document all that you are doing for your child. Show you are the more responsible parent.

NW,

My WW has two enabling friends that she spends most of her time with. With one, I don't know how supportive she was of the affair, but she just wants my WW "to be happy". My WW used going out with this friend as a cover for meeting the OM, so I'll never be comfortable around her.

The other is a known swinger who my wife went to with every sordid detail of the affair and checked in with after even so much as a phone call with the OM. This one is NEVER welcome in my house, though my wife still sees her.

Now for practical advise: All you can do is tell you wife that you see the friend as an enabler, and that it hurts you deeply every time she sees the friend. Tell her this once, but make it very clear how you feel.

After that, don't bring the issue up again. You CANNOT forbid your wife from seeing this friend, it will only blow up in your face. Your wife, of course, will continue to see the friend. Nothing you can do will change that. Show no reaction from here on out when she tells you she's going to see the friend. Your wife will remember your feelings and know that it hurts you.

Hi NW,

I agree with Schtoop. You need to clearly let her know that it hurts you when she visits her enabling friend, then let it go.

*Edit* Thanks Schtoop! I meant what you said, but didn't type it!

Semper Fi,

RIF

No, no, no, that's not what I said.

Saying that you "don't approve" of said friend is a giant lovebuster and can only be viewed by your spouse as being "controlling".

You need to say this, and the wording and intent is very important: Simply say "It hurts me deeply when you see this friend."

You never tell her to stop, never tell her you don't approve. Just let your wife know how it makes you feel, then how she reacts is her choice.

I believe that any attempt by me to voice my opinion of her actions will be percieved as controlling and thus a LB. I think for now I will put my opinion of her BF in my back pocket until the alien comes screaming out of WW's stomache.

Thank you schtoop for your perspective.

Expect the absolute worst form of insensitivity from your WW while she's in this mindset. She will say and do things which will cut to the bone.

Expect such things.

Have you heard of the 180? It's a set of behavior to follow when dealing with a wayward.

It's very helpful. Some folks on MB don't like it, but I used it and saw immediate results.

The thing to keep in mind with a WW is that you should always expect the worst. She will behave like a stubborn child and will do things with no regards or care towards you. You're an obstacle to her happiness, which is how she sees you.

Draw back a little. Carry on with your life as if nothing was wrong. Don't show your pain. You become more of a mystery to her that way.

Good luck and stay strong for your kids. THAT is the most important thing you can do right now.

Totally right on the dot. Yes, they become heartless and yes you are the obstacle to her hapiness. Obsolutely the case.

Do not give her the satisfaction to see you suffer.
When I exposed I vented to the people who I exposed to. Wrong. Never do that. Just state the facts. See, now they are telling WH how devastated I am and that does not make me look good.
Vent on the MB foum
blessing

Ok, so I really need to vent right now!!

Come home, make dinner, play Wii with NW5, do dishes, take NW5 to bed. Done with bed and WW is in bed watching tv and doing a crossword. I may as well not exist in her world. She doesn't even say your welcome. I say thank you when she takes the dinner plate that I made for her from my hand because it was heavy. NW5 had to remind her of her manners. Thank you NW5, your welcome daddy. Yep...

Why is it my fault? What did I do to her to get treated like this? What really gets under my skin right now is her sense of entitlement. Even after the A is exposed, it's still my fault and I owe her something?! And she's mad at ME?! For what? CARING?!?!?!?! What is wrong with this picture?

She is Leaving......no matter what comes of all the lawyer bs, NW5 will be w/o his mother and father......since when did this become acceptable in our culture......since when is it ok for a spouse to be able to ruin a family and walk away with custody and child support to boot.....tomorrow she's going to see her "best friend" for a few days to get a break from what? REALITY!!!! I just can't fathom the utter disreguard for others.. WTF?????

I've been reading and learning. One of the ways that helps me cope is understanding where WW mind is at (thank you forum). But right now that's pissing me off. Why should I be understanding after all this?

Maybe that's my problem. Maybe I'm confusing hope with expectation......maybe by understanding I think that I will be able to "fix" it.....maybe I'm thinking too much...

I feel better now. I know it's not my fault and I think deep down she knows that too. I don't know, maybe not...does it even matter what she thinks?

Please forgive me if I have missed it. Your thread has jumped ahead several pages since I was last on MB. Have you exposed to the OMW yet?

Sorry for not keeping up!

No, I'm still trying to figure that out. I thought that I had her on FB, not my OMW though. The PI gave me alot to work with. I know that OMW is crucial. I plan on doing some good open source intel over the weekend.

I went back and re-read SoL's thread where he talked about Why he's still trying. That post really spoke to me.

It's just been really frustraing for me lately. SoL has been doing this since September, surely I can keep it up until WW moves out in a few weeks.

I think tomorrow night NW5 and I are going to camp out in the livingroom, make popcorn and fall asleep to finding Nemo. I've always liked that movie...

What is the 180? I haven't heard of it.

It is from another forum and NOT the MB way.

I took it to mean reverse babble or just changing the subject. Example:

WW: I can't believe that you did this to me. (refering to exposing A to her familiy)
NW: I was going to say the same thing to you. (refering to her affair)

I had a friend tell me while I was in Plan A(and totally wanted to just give up) that maybe when I am feeling OKAY about what I am doing that I should write a list of the reasons that I wanted to save my marriage. Then I could look at it when I was feeling like giving up. I currently stick to the MB methods because if I gave up now, then what was the last 6 months for anyways?

Thanks for replying NW.

Yes, it would be great if you could contact the OMW as soon as possible. Quite often the OM is more than content being a cake eater and never intends leaving his BW. That is when the light of the day will hit their affair. I feel so sorry for the BW too, but she needs to know what type of man she is married to.
There is only one way to save your marriage NW and that is to get the OM out of it.

Have you thought that your WW may actually be planning on spending time with him this weekend? You mentioned the BF is an enabler and that is what enablers do! Do you still have the ability to track her etc? I would be doing that this weekend.
Calling the BF will do you no good; sadly she will lie to you too.

I'm glad you have your darling son to spend time with and I'm so sorry you are going through this.

Yea, I made the list of my reasons and it really helps me keep my sanity sometimes. I believe my reasons are valid and I would probably do anything to see them come to life. Sometimes I just want to scream though. I can't remember ever having an angry outburst, it seems I struggle not to have one daily now.

I like you perspective on the past 6 months. I think it would apply if I said the length of the M, 5 yrs.

Yes, I have certainly thought about that. I'm only using the GPS though. I'm freaking out of AAA batteries for the VAR. oh well, I've heard enough really.

If I know she's with OM, I will be extremely tempted to let her know that I know. I think I can do it w/o giving up my secrets. I wouldn't tell her to stop, just something to let her know. What do you think?

Oh, if she is with the OM and you find out in time, I would look up the OM's wife and invite her along to confront them.

Looks like WW is going where she said she was.

I'm thinking of texing WW's best friend this:
If WW wanted to jump off a bridge because it would make her happy, would you support her?

I just feel like I should do something. I'm sure I won't get the response that I would hope for....

NW-

Sometimes I have found that doing nothing, is the best thing to do. It's kind of like a paramedic or doctor's creed- "Cause no furhter harm". Now I am not saying you shouldn't do anything.

I guess the only point I'm trying to make right now is that I now really try to think every 'next move'. If I am not very sure it is the right thing to do or if I still feel very conflicted, I do nothing. I post on here and ask for other's opinions before I act.

I LOVE believer's idea about confronting them together with OMW!

If in doubt, revert back to your plan....Meet ENs, no LBs.

WW texed me to let me know NW5's results from his doctor's appointment. So we exchanged a couple of texts. Please let me know what you think.


NW: I'm glad you went to see BF. I hope you are able to relax and have fun.

WW: Are you really? I'm very happy to be seeing her.

NW: Of course! You hardly get to see her like this. I know how important it is to be able to talk to someone who understands you. I'm just happy to be here to help. I have never wanted to hurt you as crazy as that sounds.

WW: Well you did and I never wanted to hurt you either.

NW: Well you hurt me alot too, and I can get past that. I would like it if you can explain to me how your actions haven't/won't hurt NW5 and others.

WW: I never said it wouldn't, but it's also not healthy for NW5 to see his mother in a marriage that makes her completely unhappy.

NW: This is how I undestood what you just said: You think that your happiness is more important to NW5 than the pain that will be caused by all this.

WW: That's not what I meant. I'm done texting.

NW: Ok, enjoy your weekend sweetie.


I didn't really want to engage WW in relationship talks but I also want her to know that I'm not drinking her Kool-Aid. I'm so tired of hearing about her happiness. I really love the quote that was on the notable quotes thread I saw yesterday.

"The chief cause of failure and unhappines is trading what you want most for what you want right now".

I would avoid most of the relationship talk. When she says NW5 shouldn't see his mother in an unhappy marriage, you should say, I agree, I will do everything it takes to make sure that we build a happy marriage going forward.

YES YES YES. That is great reverse fog babble.

Ok, I'm starting to get it...slowly...

I have realized that I am too focused on the A. Yes, it is there and yes I know that there is nothing I can do to stop it. I have been focused on letting WW know the ramifications of it...Reality. That is not my job.

I must only do the things that would add to WW's LB as it must be in the red. I was reading somewhere that only I can make her fall back in love with me. Pointing out reality certainly does not do that. I am at an advantage here, WW still lives with me. I must use this time left to only make LB deposits.

She has given me clues. I'm not happy (in fact, completly unhappy), I don't love you. Yes, this may be fog but that is how she feels right now.

So today I sent her flowers: "Just thinking of you. I'm glad you had a good weekend, I hope your day and the rest of the week are as good."

She know's how I feel about our M, she also know's why I feel that way. She hasn't responded to either of those letter's which is what I was prepared for.

I haven't been able to confirm or deny NC w/OM yet. THe part of me that believes her has hope that we can rebuild before she moves out. I realize that this is only a dream.

I think that I have turned a corner so to speak. I told myself yesterday that I forgive WW. I realized that I hadn't even thought of that yet. Once I said to myself "I forgive you", I felt peace. I feel liberated actually. I just hope it's not part of the roller coaster ride.

In what I hope is not a thread-jack, I would like to say congratulations, and that I think this is a MAJOR STEP.

I too, found it within my heart to forgive my WW. Partly because I have come to learn that she has a personality disorder that she is not responsible for having, and that she cannot help herself for her skewed view of the world.

But I also had a great nugget given to me the other day in church. The pastor spoke of the story of Jacob and Esau (scholars will probably need to correct me). After all the problems between the two, there came a time when forgiveness was given.

But the two did not heal the rift between them, for although forgiveness had been given and received, too much had transpired between them for them to ever have a healthy relationship again.

For my peace, the forgiveness has been a great weight lifted. But I do not want my wayward wife to ever return.

Thanks Fred. I really feel better about the whole thing.

Question: Where were you in your sitch when you gave forgivness? Did it raise your hopes up only to have them crash down? I know at this point forgivness is for me as WW has no care how I feel. I almost feel like I am setting myself up.

How can one forgive, knowing the act that hurt you is still happening? Is it recognizing the addiction? Is it love for the WW? Is it for my own sanity? Did I give forgivness too early?

Reguardless, I do feel the weight off my chest. I no longer look at WW and feel resentment. I see a poor soul that is crying for help. Problem is, she is looking for the easy way to fix what ails her.

I have offered her a guidline for true romantic love and she tore it up in my face. I taped it back up and she threw it away. I told WW how I still have love for her and have offered her happiness, admiration, and forgivness. I have asked her for forgivness. Her response was filing for a D. I should get the papers any day now.

When WW moves out, it is time to set my little wayward dove free to go home. Where is home? I don't know, but I will leave a candle in the window. The house will dark otherwise.

I know the deck is stacked against me, but this is not for her.

So she did file for a D. I don't have the papers yet but I believe her, thanks GPS. She went there the day after I revealed to her family. I'm not upset or surprised, more disappointed than anything. I had an appointment to meet w/my lawyer last week but he canceled and rescheduled for tomorrow. I can't wait to talk about Legal Seperation and temp injunction for NW5.

She really played it off like she had no clue what she was doing. I really don't think she has a plan at all. She hasn't thought of a budget, no worries because we just got our tax return right?

I will continue Plan A until she moves out. Once that happens it's on to B. I really don't know how much love I have left for her. Forgiving her has not only lifted me but I think it has gotten me ready for the next step. I realize that once she is gone...she'll be gone. Take that either way. I don't think I'll have much gumption to put up much of a fight at that point.

NW- I'm glad to see your personal growth in this mess. It seems as if you are realizing that you are stronger than you thought and now know that you will be OK however this works out.

As far as her filing, I wouldn't be so sure until you get served. She may have simply had a consultation with the lawyer. My WW threatened divorce for a couple months before pulling the trigger and actually filing.

In my eyes, the filing makes little difference as these things take a lot of time. It ain't over until the ink is dry. It may actually help your WW to see what the reality of a divorce will mean to her and your son.

Try to keep your focus on what it is that you want. If it is a healthy marriage, then keep working towards that end (Plan A). You will know when it's time for Plan B. If not, many here will tell you!!

I agree, I knew this was probably a neccesay step towards recovery. The next step will be WW moving out and having OM meet all her ENs. After that who knows.

I was a little shocked last night when WW said that in the D paperwork that I would get to see NW5 every other weekend and once a week. That's 8 days a month. WW said that is standard for judges. I told her that a judge will sign off on what we agree to and what is in the best interest of NW5.. I told her that I can't talk about this right now. She went upstairs. Later I went back up and asked her if I could get her some milk and cookies. She declined.

I am still in Plan A and I find it easier to give all now after forgivness. Every morning I tell her how cute her outfit is or how pretty she looks. Last night I got NW5 on board for Mothers day. He's really excited to make mommy a card with a picture of her holding a cake!! HAHAHA....I told him it's a very special day for mommies, NW: Like a birthday or Christmas? NW: Haha, yes...

Hey NW - If/when this happens, OM will have LOTS of opportunites to start LB-ing... once reality hits them both in the face as they play "house" together...

Semper Fi,

RIF

Part of me says don't discuss custody options with your WW. The other part of me says that whenever she brings up how great it will be to have the kids every other weekend and one night a week that you say, "Sure, that would be good for you to have. I will not settle for that or anything less than 50/50."

Say it calmly, without arguing and do it very matter of fact.

As far as judges go, there has been a real shift in the last few years regarding fathers. It no longer is automatic for the woman to get primary.

DO NOT fall into the trap of thinking that such a settlement is a good deal and the best you can get. Fathers are getting 50/50 in increasing amounts. I have a 60/40 split which I can live with. I get my kids the entire summer and I get ever weekend per month except the second to last one. That's been good for me.

She imagines in her head that you guys will be best buds once you divorce. Don't believe it and don't feed into her delusion. She says that you guys can be friends, then let her know that won't be the case. It's very simple, you can be married, or you won't be friends.

It's very tough to do, but any talk about custody should be kept very matter of fact and unemotional. I'm telling you this as someone who drove his blood pressure to crazy levels worrying about this issue. I look back now and realize that I should have been much calmer and understanding that family courts try to be fair if you're a good guy.

Keep your nose clean, stay calm, and stay involved. Document the heck out of everything such as times you're caring for your son and she isn't. This isn't so much to smear her as much as it is documentation that you're more than capable of taking care of your son without her.

I know this all sucks. But rest assured that you'll be ok.

[/quote]Hey NW - If/when this happens, OM will have LOTS of opportunites to start LB-ing... once reality hits them both in the face as they play "house" together...

Semper Fi,

RIF [/quote]

Hey RIF, Yes, I believe that you are spot on. We'll just have to wait and see how long it takes for her LB to be drained. Then.........?


I would like to say RIF, that I see the advice that you are giving Gerka and I am very much humbled by your selfless service to a fellow soldier. For that I commend you....OOOO-RAHH..

I think I agree with you. I'm a little torn about custody talk.
Pros?:
She knows that I will not settle for ANYTHING less than 50/50 and I will not roll over.
The reality of of being away from NW5 for extended period may have a profound effect.
The reality of the cost of lawyer fees, and establishing a new household may be effective as well. Her income is less than mine, teachers don't make much nowadays. Plus IL has cut billions of $$ from our education budget (this one may be a stretch as she feels secure in her job because of tenure). My Warchest is bigger, I think, to drag it out a little.

Cons?:
LB LB LB LB LB LB LB LB LB LB LB LB LB LB LB LB..etc...

I will certanly prepare myself and would have any/all conversations in a calm cool manner, breif, to the point, and confident. I'm the one with a rational plan after all.

I could tell you nightmare stories about my own custody battle. I realize now, looking back, that I could have spent a very small fraction of what I actually spent if I had simply had more confidence.

I use to get all upset about settlement offers given to me by her attorney. It was frustrating because the offers were barely any better than what I already had, which was basically nothing. I was also literally going broke because my CS was so high I had no money left to have a life of my own or even treat the kids to anything.

Rather than going 20 rounds with her attorney, I simply could have said, "No thanks. I think I'll do better with the judge."

DO NOT settle for her arrangement. Odds are high that if you're living near each other that you can get a 50/50 arrangement.

PSUB has 50/50 and he and his WXW live 90 minutes apart.

The standard for behavior for men is much higher than for women. Women get away with a lot more bad behavior. Document, but don't expect it to be used against her much.

The secret to winning 50/50 (which is really the best you can expect) is to:

1. Live nearby. Stay within 15 minutes of each other, preferably in the same school district.
2. Give the appearance of being a calm, cool, warm and cuddly guy.
3. Learn to do things that may not have been in your realm before. I've learned to cook and I decorate cakes for my kids.
4. Get as much family to show up for your hearings as possible. I had uncles and cousins come from everywhere to show support for me. I had a full bird colonel in full uniform show up to testify on my behalf as a character witness as my supervisor (I'm a contractor that worked for him).
5. You can't let the other lawyer get to you.

These are all bridges you have yet to cross and it will hopefully not come to this. BUT I share this with you because I felt this desperation to save the marriage because of mis-information about when I'd be able to see my kids. I had the old ideas that I wouldn't get to see them much and they would be out of my life.

I couldn't have been more wrong. Knowing then what I know now, I may have been less inclined to be so desperate to save things and would have had more confidence in the idea that it wasn't going to be the end of the world and that I'd get to see my kids plenty. Sure, it's not the ideal where you see them daily and it certainly isn't what you imagined your life would be like, but it is what it is. As long as your son knows he will see you regularly, then you'll be ok and he'll be ok.

What worried me the most was who she might end up bringing into their lives and on this I lucked out. She met a guy just like me in terms of personality and who treats the kids well. I don't worry about him. In fact, I don't want them to break up because I don't want to worry about someone new.

My basic point to you is this:

Have faith that even if your marriage fails that you will be ok and will see your son plenty. You will always be his dad no matter what.

Put certain clauses in any settlement you make with her or request them from the judge that:

1. There will be no cohabitation with members of the opposite sex that aren't family members.
2. Neither party can move more than 20 minutes away from the other. Breach of that breaks the current order and a new custody arrangment will have to be made.

I wish I had done those in my situation.

Have faith. Be prepared for Plan B if necessary. Consult a lawyer just to be prepared. Have him draft a 50/50 arrangement that is to be followed on a temporary basis. This often becomes the status quo.

Don't believe anything she says in terms of custody. Most people don't understand family law at all and there is a ton of mis-information.

Keep the faith. Take care of you.

HTLD is right on, don't expect WW to have your best interests at heart. Remember, Illinois is an Alienation of Affection state,
just in case you need to throw a wrench into her best laid plans.
OM will have to spend $$ to defend against it. Don't forget Lawyer UP

Hey NW,

You're getting some EXCELLENT advice from HTLD! Hang in there and keep showing NW5 what a great dad he has!


HTLD - I'm glad that you are able to share your experinces here to help NW prepare for his upcoming battles!


Semper Fi,

RIF

GF beat me to it. You can sue OM for alienation of affection and get him ordered to have NC w/ your WW until you divorce goes through.

Hi NW.

You sound like you are in a great place at the moment and you are getting some great advice and help from the vets.

How did you go on the weekend? Any luck finding out who the OM is? Is he married?

Do you still plan to expose to his BS?

I missed a few things. I didn't realize that she had already filed.

This is what's going to happen next. You'll be brought before the judge for a scheduling conference. While you wait for your time in the courtroom, he/she will push your attorneys to hammer out an agreement.

Let yours know right up front that you will not waste any time entertaining anything less than 50/50. What's going to happen is that her attorney and your attorney will go off into a room or a corner and negotiate. Expect her attorney to polish the terd over and over. The first time, you'll get the polished turd of an offer. Then will come a polished turd with a bow on top. Then will come a polished turn, bow on top, and an offer to have you pay less CS.

Don't let this frustrate you. I use to get irate at the offers. Draw your line in the sand. 50/50. No less.

Let me offer this arrangment for you to chew on:

1. Monday and Tuesday with one parent. Wednesday/Thursday with the other. You then alternate weekends.

Split all holidays evenly, alternating each year. Think of the holidays that aren't holidays, such as Halloween. Alternate those.

I recommend splitting the summer full time 50/50 so that you can travel with your son someplace on vacation or to have extended family do stuff with him.

So you'll have a scheduling conference. Once nothing is hammered out, the judge will bring you both in. He will look at you guys and schedule a status conference, mediation, a hearing for a temporary order, and then a merits trial.

Expect those to be spaced out months apart. This process will drag on forever.

Make sure that your temporary orders are 50/50. Temporary orders have a habit of becoming permanent ones.

They will push you to settle. Stick to your guns. 50/50. She will either become desperate to end things and finally give in, or she will continue to stick to her guns to fight.

My ex stuck to her guns and gave no quarter. She basically came off as the unreasonable one with a lawyer that looked out to destroy me rather than come to a reasonable settlement.

Understand that child support is usually calculated by overnights. Having your son for a weeknight will not count as an overnight. This could mean thousands.

I'm not joking when I tell you that I was going flat broke and I made over $100k a year because my CS was $3k a month. Throw in taxes and rent and I kept very little for anything else.

Also, be careful with how lawyers craft agreements. They have a way of wording things which make it so that their client isn't really bound to future agreements.

I had a clause in the first settlement that said we would negotiate 50/50 when my daughter turned 7. It was worded in such a way that it was a worthless thing to have in there. If you have such a clause, make sure it's definitive as in:

ORDERED: 50/50 custody will be in full effect upon DS5's 7th birthday.

That's basic guidance on any such future arrangement you make.

Get books on father's rights.

There is a very good one called "The Co-parenting Survival Guide" and another one called "Mom's House, Dad's House".

Finally, file an AOA lawsuit against OM. You're likely not going to get anywhere with it, but do it anyways just to make OM's life a pain. It's amazing how often OM scurry away when facing legal papers and legal battles.

But understand one thing: Custody fights are all out war. They are draining, unpredictable, and expensive. If you can settle for something you can live with, then go for it.

I currently get my kids all but one weekend a month from Friday night through Monday morning and I get all summer. It's not 50/50, but I get to see my kids often and get to have a life of my own. I also have enough money to live.

You'll be ok no matter what.

My advice has just saved you thousands in legal fees. Trust me on this.

Excellent advice!

You're getting some great divorce advice (if you end up needing it) but pay attention to the MB advice as well. It's not over till the Judge signs on the dotted line. There's still time to fight for your marriage.

PrincessMeggy,

That's how I feel. It seems like advice has jumped straight to divorce. I don't think NW has even exposed to the OM's wife yet! His WW may not even move out if the affair collapses around her. I'm not a vet, so I'm careful not to give advice, but what do you think?

Prepare for the worst and hope for the best. Papers have already been filed.

He can implement MB and be the good guy while his attorney can be the bad guy and the fighter.

My advice is on the fight that is coming his way. It's coming. Papers are filed and the ball is rolling.

MB can still be followed, but there are papers at play.

You can still contact OMW if you haven't yet. That should be done.

Forgive me if I didn't catch this, but are you still in the service? How much time left in your committment? When will you PCS next?

If you can, consider transferring to a reserve or guard unit. This will help in terms of your schedule and will demonstrate a desire to provide stability for your kids.

I left after 11 years of service and don't regret it because I did it to be near my kids.

HTLD,
Thank you so much for sharing your insight and knowledge! I wish I would have seen the AOA stuff before I talked w/my lawyer today. I really like that idea. Sure it'll probably go nowhere but its nice to be able to throw some lead downrange from time to time.

I think that the legal advice is part of the MB priciples of Plan A and B. the AOA would apply to A and the custody stuff will certanly have a huge effect in B. I will not let NW5 get in the middle of this but I will NOT settle for anything less than 50/50. I will certanly let WW know that I will fight tooth and nail and spend any ammount for this. Can you put a price on fatherhood?

I told my lawyer my plan and he is on board. He says that he plays the role of bad cop very well. I'm kind of excited to get served. I really can't wait to see what grounds she filled on. I'm not going to get upset over any lawyer threats or the like. I know I got a good one and he is ready to do my bidding...for a fee of course. Can you put a price on saving your marriage or peace of mind?

I still will continue to meet her ENs and avoid LBing...Thanks Mark. Again I find this comes alot easier now and doesn't feel forced after forgivness. SERENITY NOW!!!! haha

AS for OMWoman, well after the FB screwup and the dead-ends that followed I was feeling at a loss and hopeles on this front. I went back and re-read the info from the PI and I may have found a tasty nugget. We'll see. I would just love to serve the AOA and expose to OMWoman at the same time. Shot over....

I am still serving in the National Guard. My retirement date is 2022, I have 11 years total service with 4 mobilizations/deployments under my belt. I would guess that I would have 3 or 4 more before I hang up the boots. As for PCSing, well, there are alot of factors in play but I think the biggest is if I get promoted. I would more than likley have to PCS in that event, and I can decline it if I need to.. Until then I am happy where I am at, good job, good unit, good town, and most importantly, good co-workers.

Thank you all for your insight today! Thank you for reading my thread and I appreciate all the point of views and help. I'll take all that I can get...

NW

Make sure there is a clause in any divorce agreement or court order that will have the custody agreement return in full force and effect when you return from a deployment.

Try to move into a position where your chances of deployment are lowered, at least for the purposes of a custody fight.

Once you get the 50/50, if it comes to that, you can move back to your original position.

You want as little used against you as possible. Have a plan in place for if you get deployed, where you volunteer to pay CS while you're gone, but that 50/50 is set when you return.

These are just some thoughts for you. Run it by your lawyer first.

I think Plan A and Plan B can be followed, even in the middle of a big divorce/custody fight. One of our MB hall of famers, Mortarman, fought a super nasty custody fight. His WW came to her senses when she realized all she was losing. They are in R now and are doing well, as far as I know.

The challenge in R is for the BS. BS's spend a lot of mental energy absorbed in trying to put things back together. Once that happens, however (if it happens), the BS is often faced with the reality that was tucked away in the back of his/her mind.

Do I truly want this person in my life? Can I overcome my feelings of disgust towards her? Will she do it again? Do I want to live with doubt in my mind?

Lots of couples have battled through that and end up having a great relationship and marriage afterwards. But it's a big mountain to climb when trying to put it all back together again.

I never did get to recover my marriage, but it isn't something I regret. Others with that experience can weigh in on that front.

Yup...Mortarman fought and WON custody, not once, but TWICE. They had a year long false recovery wherein his wife kinda tried to recover but then went into solidifying a better case for custody, but when she filed AGAIN the judge saw right through it and reaffirmed, I believe, a 4 to 3 custody split in favor of Mortarman.

Of course, he had the advantage that he had LEFT active duty and went to a desk job somewhere in Washington. I don't know much about custody cases and military personnnel.

I do know you CAN Plan A while fighting for custody. You just have to hide behind your big ole mean attorneys. The ATTORNEY is the bad guy...not you. Also fighting for custody and fighting for you marriage are congruent to the extent that you appear much more strongly when you don't allow yourself to be push around (underneath girls like tough guys and they like to be fought for) plus, if you win and they lose, they don't like the guilt of having to lose time with their children and they MAY just pause and think. Mortarman's wife put on the brakes and just WOKE UP...literally days before the final divorce decree was going to be entered. The added bonus of fighting is you'll hopefully win or get the best deal FOR YOU should the divorce go through.

Just compartmentalize the battles in your head. They are separate and CONGRUENT battles.

Mr. W

p.s.- 14thegipper I believe did a good job on this too. At some points along the way he'd sympathize with his wife about how mean his attorney was and even act like he was going to have a talk with his attorney about being nicer.

Hiding behind my attorney is the only option I see at this point. So far I have been really careful not to talk about it at all. Not hard really, After I put NW5 to bed, she goes straight to the bedroom. She has no interest in interaction between us at all. I do still check on her though.

"They are separate and CONGRUENT battles."

Thank you, Mr. W, this makes alot of sense. What does CONGRUENT mean?

I know this is MB's, but the advice from HTLD's is very useful.

I've had ONE conversation with my wayward wife about what a post-divorce life would look like.

She thought we could agree to terms ourselves at a low cost, I could live around the corner, help with afterschool care and such, and be her on-call nanny.

I let her know that I would never accept anything less than 50/50, would want the house, and we would NOT be friends.

Haven't talked about it since and don't ever plan to. Any further discussion will be left to the lawyers.

I am keeping a journal of daily activity including her time away from the family and drinking habits.

Every day that I'm not traveling for work I 1) Wake the boys and get them breakfast, 2) Make them lunch, 3) Take them to school, 4) Make and feed them dinner, 5) Take to soccer practice, 6) Always there at bedtime.

Some days she helps them with homework and reads with them before bed. That's it, other that taking them to Target or Gamestop for more toys.

She is going to flip when she realizes she isn't going to automatically get custody. Maybe that will be enough to shake her out of the fog?

schtoop,
Thanks for your insight. I have been trying to read up on your thread and have seen alot of similarities in our WWs. My WW doesn't go out much at all but their attitudes seems very similar.

We haven't talked much lately about how the D is going to go or post D. I'm waiting to get served w/papers before I go there. My lawyer is going to look like an a$$, I'm just in it for the ride. I'm really curious how she's going to react.

Ok,
So the info the PI gave me has kind of fizzled. I do have addresses of known relatives, current and previous addresses, persons living at those addresses, etc....

I think my plan to expose to OM family/friends will have to be a mass mailing, addressed to Familiy and Friends of OM. No return address but I will put my email in the letter in case they want to contact me.

What do you guys think?

Sounds like a plan to me.

Ok, so the custody and lawyer talk came up last night, I think I did pretty good. When we were talking about lawyer stuff I made sure that she knew that since her lawyer told her she would get full custody, that mine was going to ask for the same. I tried to make him out as a pitbull. I also told her that I would not settle for anything less than 50/50, like we had talked about earlier.

She got very upset about me asking for full custody and was verbally abusive. I reamined calm the whole time. I told her that my lawyer was just doing the same thing as her's. We are still in agreement w/50/50 and no CS.

She settled down a bit and got upset again when I said that my lawyer said she couldn't leave w/NW5 and other household goods w/o anything in writing. She stormed off upstairs to bed. 30 min later I'm on the cpu in the middle of posting what just happened and she walked in to the room.

WW: What are you doing? What!? Are you emailing people about something?

NW: No, this is none of your business.

WW: What are you doing?

NW: I'm trying to learn and understand how to become a better
husband and father. I want to save our marriage and make you happy.

WW: Why can't you just give it up? (She has asked me this several times)

NW: Ok, let me try and tell you exactly why I can't just "give up". 5yrs from now when NW5 looks at me and asks "daddy, why aren't you and mommy married?" I can tell him that I tried everything that I could to save our marriage, and it just didn't work out. I know what it's like to be 5yrs old and all you want is a goodnight hug from you father. As much as my mother loved me, I still had a hole in my heart from my father not being there. I know what's it's like to grow up in a broken home. That is why I can't just "give up".

WW: I know you had a tough childhood, but it's just not going to work. Why can't you understand this?

NW: Ok, if you really must know. It's because of your A. When you told me that you wanted a D, you were activly involved w/OM. Since then you have said that you ended it. I would like to belive that. Truth is, that no counseling will do us any good until break all contact w/OM. I belive that you love him, you have told me that you have feelings for him. Those feeling will not go away until you break all contact. I'm not mad at you for that. I understand. I have forgiven you. I do not intend to lecture, I am only telling you what I feel. If you didn't have an A and we went through counseling and it wasn't working, then I would walk away. Until then, I will do what ever it takes to make you happy and build a new wonderful marriage with you, as long as there is still love for you in my heart.

After that we talked about our days and had some small talk. I talked about one of our friends (he works in my bldg now and is hillarious!). I started talking about some of the funny/crazy things we used to do. We talked about our days for about 5 min and went to bed.

I feel that I did good as far as letting her know that I wouldn't budge on NW5, and when we talked about other things I made sure that I added loving remarks. I remained calm the whole time and I tried not to make SD and DJ. I didn't really want to talk about it but I felt she really wanted to, and I have been preparing for this conversation for a week now.

Stick to your guns and don't let her bully you about custody. Don't be surprised if she tries to pull the, "let's make this amicable and perhaps we can start anew someday."

My ex did that. It's a ploy and a trick. "Amicable" means "do everything I ask."

Don't fall for it.

It's a trick.

She doesn't think of it that way, but it is.

You did well.

Stick to your guns on your son. Good job. Wish I had been as strong.

NW- I think you did pretty good. You represented yourself honestly and your not getting angry showed confidence and strength. Plus, the stuff you said about why you can't give up was good. I'm sure it was heartfelt and had to come accross that way. I would still not bring it up unless she does in the future. Hang in there.

So I'm listening to the VAR from today and WW went to a Walgreens over her lunch. It's odd because it sounds like she's crying in the car. When she gets back in the car after work it sounds like she distressfuly mutters under her breath "I have issues", and then another girl voice says "Wow". It's differant voice and they go somewhere afterwards. She stops somewhere on the way and I think she drops the person off and stays for 10 min. I don't know what to make of this. She didn't act much differantly this evening.

I called the walgreens and other stores close by and asked if OM worked there, but no dice.

I'm super tired now, I have to work this weekend and have to be up at 0515....yuck...

WW,
Why try to recover our M? Is it worth saving? Would we be able to move past all this? Can I be the man of your dreams? Can you be the woman of my dreams? I have asked myself this many times. So the question still stands, why try to recover our M? This is why I believe it worth trying.

-The A could be the best thing that has happened to us. You have stated that you do not love me and you have always thought twice about our M. I have not been the greatest H; you have said that I am a great person and Father. With all the doubt and confusion that you have and little effort from me in the past, imagine how wonderful a new M can be between us if we were to fully commit to it.

-The best way to heal from all this pain is recovery. All the old feelings of pain, remorse, guilt, shame will be replaced by love, adoration, pride, joy and happiness. Your true love is here, standing in front of you with arms wide open.

-What is best for NW5? I do not want to replace your time w/him with another woman who he has not met. I want each of us to ALWAYS be there for NW5 whenever he needs us, not every other weekend. I would love to raise NW5 in a loving home where his mother and father are deeply in love with each other. We can have that love; there is nothing that we can�t overcome together.

You are a beautiful woman who stops time when you walk into a room. I remember a time when you walked into a crowded room and time stopped. All eyes were on you, you were stunning. I felt so small and insignificant at that moment. Then you looked at me and smiled and I felt as if I owned the world. I was the luckiest man on earth who had just won the lottery! I will never forget that moment, and I look forward to making many more of them.

I will not just give up and walk away from our M. For better or for worse means just that. I see the potential we have, full of meaningful everlasting love. I will not stop trying to save our M as long as there is love in my heart for you. For better or worse, I am fully committed to being the best husband and father for you, NW5, and myself.

I have allowed myself to get pretty angry, I know why I'm angry and I can't seem to shake it. So, I'm going to vent here, I always seem to feel better after I write my feelings down.

Why does it have to be like this? Why is it that I constantly get the cold shoulder/ignored. Here's the reality. My wife is seeing another man, next weekend she is signing a lease. She wants a divorce to pursue/justify her relationship with this man. She is taking my son away from me at least half of the time. And here I am doing everything to show her love and all I get in return is absolutly nothing.....no emotion, none. My only chance to save my marriage is show my wife love and I have to do this in light of her affair, her wanting a divorce, and all the lying and deception. Knowing the chances of saving this marriage are bad doesn't help. Once she leaves, is there even a chance? I really hate this.

I need to get this out of my system before I go home. My hope is dwindling

How long have you been in Plan A, NW? The longer you stay the more depleted your Love Bank gets. I read a dangerously low level in your post.

Are you ready for Plan B? Perhaps drafting a Plan B letter will help your mood, and also help you put some perspective into this mess.

Your WW is playing it "by the numbers." But you are not without resources. You have the entire MB forum behind you -- we are your "silent army" to help you kill this affair and work on recovering your marriage!

I didn't start applying the MB pricipals until I found this site a month ago. However, I feel that I have been doing all the work for the past two years. She has been distant for a while, I would say three years.

I haven't shared this but in Feb 08 I got my 2nd DUI and I haven't driven a car since. Just prior to the DUI we started MC together. We went to two sessions prior to the DUI, no real results. I got the DUI and on our third session the MC told us that he wouldn't see us again until I resolved the issues usually associated with multi-DUI offenders.

In Apr 08 I started attending AA (hence two ages in my sig block), going several times a week. AA gave me imediate results. I attended AA meetings several times a week and got alot out of it. I can say that WW felt I was very controlling, like I was always checking on her....funny to me now, but AA really helped me put things into perspective and AA to me is not about staying sober, it's about living.

I deployed to Afghan in Sep 08, sitch w/WW was hard for me to take. Our primary means of communication was email. She would respond to 1 out of every 4 emails I would send. This was very hard for me and eventually I learned to get by. I had to D WW in my mind to keep my sanity.

I returned from Afghan in Oct 09. Things seemed to go well for about a month or so. Then she was distant again. For the past two years I would try and try to make her happy only to get the cold shoulder time after time. Eventually I would withdrawl, until I would start feeling guilty, so the cycle would start again.

Throughout the past two years I have been led to believe that our M problems have been all my fault. Looking back on this fact I feel alot of resentment to WW, this is not god for me. I have gotten alot better about identifying my triggers, and forgivness has helped.

So I guess that I can't say how long I've been in plan A. It's been two years since I felt like have been doing all the lifting but I really didn't start applying MB pricipals until last month. I am learning how to apply them better everyday, with some bad days here and there.

If it weren't for NW5 this would be alot easier for me. When I'm in a funk I just look at his piture and see his beatiful smile. He is an innocent bystandard in this and it breaks my heart to think of how this could end up affecting him. How do you expose to appropriatly a 5 year old, or do you, or what do you tell him?

Time to go home, I feel better I think, thanks for the support.

Yes I am ready for Plan B.

Last night I caught WW going through my bags that I take to work. I keep my PI info, OM info and the like in there.

NW: I thought that you never would snoop through my things? (She said this when I was caught in her purse)
WW: I haven't, this was the first time.
NW: Ok, what do you want to know? (I don't care anymore, her snooping tells me she is still covering for OM.)
WW: Nothing, I don't really care. (I was ready to tell her anything)

We had another talk, and I did some LB, DJ and the like. I just didn't care. I'm really ready for her to leave now. I can't go on like this. I'm tired of the lies and deception and it's driving me crazy. I just want her to go and do whatever. I can't look at her anymore and have pleasant thoughts.

I feel beaten. I feel like she has finnally gotten me to see our M in her eyes. But that's ok, I need my sanity. I slept on this last night and I woke up with the same feelings. When I saw her this morning, I felt more resentment than anything. I really don't want to iteract w/her anymore. Her view of the world right now really irritates me.

I'm sorry, NW. One can only keep giving and giving with nothing in return for so long. I think we've all been there, I've played out the monstrous love-busting conversation in my head a million times. The one where you lay out exactly how horrible, how selfish, how deceitful, and how out of control your spouse is in the most realistic and insensitive way without any regard to what happens.

One would think it feels good, but I know it really doesn't.

Hi NW

It truly is a crazy roller coaster ride! Your emotions will probably be changing daily or even hourly and sadly this goes on for a long time.

I find it interesting that you found your WW snooping on you! She is obviously concerned over what information you have gathered. Or why bother?

I so wish you could expose her affair. I think it will totally disrupt the dream world she is living in, quite likely the OM will throw her under the bus to save his marriage. Plus, I feel so sorry for the wife of the OM. Have you had any luck at all tracing him?

I'm sorry NW, I hope the ride evens out for you again.

This affair has not been exposed? Why? Expose ASAP!

I exposed the A to WWs family. As for OM, I dropped letters off to known family and associates. We'll have to see how that plays out, they should start receiving the letters tomorrow. I haven't exposed to work as Jennifer felt it would be over the top as OM doesn't work there anymore.

WW caught me in her car this morning. I just finnished hiding the VAR. All she saw was that I was looking in her car by the driver seat, I don't know if shee snoop around and look for anything. If she finds it and confronts me I don't know how I should handle the conversation. I think that I may just say to her exactly what I have been doing with the VAR and ask her if she still is still standing by her story. Don't know what else I should say or tell her.

I still want to save my M, but the tank is getting low. I'm not as disgusted as I was yesterday. I watched Fireproof last night, yes I cried. haha...

Labile emotions are part and parcel to this process regardless of how it turns out.

My situation is much different and MUCH MORE CALM at the moment, and I STILL move all over the place in my emotions and desires.

Realize that it is normal... DON'T ACT ON ANYTHING EMOTIONAL at any given time. If it is the RIGHT THING TO DO... it will be right to do tomorrow, after you have had time to let it rest. I have reacted to my emotions several times, usually believing that I was doing 'good' ie quick forgiveness without allowing for an apology first, etc. I believe that I prolonged difficulty, by thinking, quite often, that I was being 'good' when I actually needed to be a bit more 'tough'.

Just don't react or be too quick to do anything. Your emotions WILL CHANGE... and what you think at this moment WILL NOT be the same in the next moment. If after a day or two you still believe something, THEN it is OK to act upon it. Just take your time in EVERYTHING and don't REACT TO ANYTHING.

NW- Not that it will help you this time, but take a "love note" with you whenever you go out to her car to put the VAR in or go to take it out. That way if you are caught in the car, you will have a reason to be out there(other than the VAR).

That's a great idea!! I will certanly do that from now on!!

Thank you all for the emotional advice, I truely need it. My biggest trigger is the lying, knowing everything that I do, I have found it hard for me to act rationally. I have certanly gotten better though.

Thank you, I know I do better when I'm not reactive. I know my triggers, I need to work on calming myself when I allow my self to fired up.

Don't give up!Act, don't react. It really is hard, day to day but you are really doing great.

I got served with D papers tonight at the house after dinner. NW5 was right there next to me investigating who was at our front door. WW was in the living room holding the Dog. I took the papers and thanked the kind gentleman.

I read the papers and she is asking for everything. Full custody, child support, pay for her legal fees, alimony. I finnished and asked her if she had read them. She said no. I said you signed them. I went out and had a smoke.

Did some laundry, dishes, and played w/NW5 until bed. WW put him to bed tonight. She told me before I freak out, listen to me. I said, Ok, I'm not going to freak out, I just find it funny that the same things you got very upset about and verbally abusive the other night, are them same things you have just filed for....without reading what may be the most significant document in three people's lives.

So we talked. We are still in agreement of anything associated with NW5 it will be 50/50, no alimony, no lawyer fees, no CS. She did say several times that her lawyer says that the judge may override our no CS agreement. She blamed her lawyer, touchee....

She is a teacher and has summers off. She is under the impression that on my days w/NW5 that I should drop him off at her new Apt. I let her know that I was against this because those will be my days. This caused some friction. I dont know how to handle this issue with out it being a huge LB.

I know now that she views all my actions of late as me trying to show everyone that I am the hero in all of this. All of my actions are so that I can look good. Is this a good or bad? Is she seeing improvments and writing them off as an ego boost for me??????????

We went on to have a pretty good civil talk. She is under the impression that everything will cool between us once she leaves. Am I seting her up for a Darker Plan B? Should I tell her what Plan B will look like/life w/o NW? I feel I have told her this already. I feel I am walking a very tight rope here. I am leaning towards Plan B once she moves out, maybe 2-3 weeks from now. I still need to work out some logistical issues.

Thanks, the encouragment helps alot. Sometimes I feel like I have no idea what I doing...

Sorry to hear this latest development bro. Looks like we are in a very similar position now with the D papers and all.

Have you determined what YOU want? What is your goal? Work towards that end regardless of the 'legal' situation. If the marriage is still what you want, do not be deterred by this event. It ain't over till the ink is dry.

If you actually WANT to be divorced, we will support you in those efforts as well. Stay tough.

Huge developments on the OM front!!

WW went to Target, she called me and said I need to call OM because he is on the way to my house! I called him and he denied everything that WW told me about the affair. Totally threw her story under the bus. He gave me his cell # too.

WW came home imediatly and was very upset. I ended the call and she left and said she was going back to target. She texted and and said she was going to a friends house in a town 30min away..

I checked my email and sure enough in my inbox there is an email from the OMlongtime girlfriend. They are not married but have lived together since highschool, 12yrs. She told me alot of info, she did call me 5 years ago. She has been snooping and suspecting for years. She told me that I didn't know how happy she was to receive my letter. OM is planning on moving out also.

WW is at an address in another town 30min away, I don't know if she is coming home tonight. OMGF is on her way to the address to investigate. We suspect that WW will be there (at her friends)and meet w/OM later tonight. OMGF is awesome!!!!! We are going to text each ather tonight and she is going to tail them tonight with the info from my GPS!! She told me we are in this together, she is also very close to OM's mother. I want to kiss her right now!!

Wow!! I am so excited. I also found out about another relationship WW might have had while we were dating from OMGF. Wow...This has been a very busy day...

That is great news that you are in touch with a cooperative OMGF! It's about time you caught a break.

This is the email from OMGF:

You don't know how happy I am that you sent that letter! I have tried to get in touch with you since October 2009 and before. Please call me on my cell phone. I will be glad to talk with you. ANd yes, if you have proof, please send it to me. I confronted them both back in October 2009 and they both denied it. I can give you actual dates I think it happened, because that's when he was gone from home! Please call me.

and.....

Please call me anytime. I don't care what time of day or night it is. This has been bugging me and ruining everything we have built together. I can't wait to hear from you. ANd yes, if you have proof, please show me. I can tell you I knew something was going on back in October 2009 because I looked at his cell phone bill and it was a cell phone number I didn't recognize calling him every few minutes and they were speaking longer than a few minutes. SOmetimes an hour or so. But she was calling him every night like clockwork. When I confronted them both, they said they were just friends!! I should have known better! I feel so stupid.

I feel so much better right now....

This is why you needed to figure things out and expose a long time ago. Document your WW staying away for the night. This will help in any future custody case.

I talked to OM again, he called me actually. He really wants me to believe his that he hasn't contacted WW since he was fired from there last summer. He said that he wants nothing to do with my marriage or WW or any part of breaking it up. I told him that I want him to say those thins to me and WW together. He agreed

I talked to OMGF again. She is devoted to getting to the bottom of this. She is going to email OM work schedule and past phone bill records. She also told me that she talked to OM mom and OM in the room, she was on speaker. OM was tapdancing, cussing out my WW for saying those things. OM familiy is also very religious and very much against his actions and breaking up a M.

Also, OMGF had my WW talk to her and OM on the phone and say they had nothing going on like 7 years ago. 7 years?!?! We have been married for 5. Oh man, what to do...

OM and OMGF have been together 10 yrs, OMGF does not know what to do about their relationship. I told her about MB. She seemed very interested.

I texted WW to see if she is coming home tonight. We'll see.

Please tell me that, at this point in time, you don't believe this nonsense?

Translation....

WW and OM met. OM told WW about letter. WW crapped herself.

Not sure if this is a good idea just yet. Seems like things are moving really fast. OMGF could easily tell OM about MB. If they continue contact (just deeper underground now) they would have access to your secret weapon -- MB.

I listened to the VAR from WW trip out the other night.

She made 4 calls. 2 of which were to OM. 1 to her best freind, and the other to her co-worker whose apt she went to that night. I must say that I wasn't shocked but it was difficult to listen to. WW is in love w/OM on the Soul Mate level. From talking to OMGF, we think that WW is giving OM $$ to pay for his new apt. I am made out to be a crazy person. WW was making fun of me for still trying to save the marriage.

WW: and he is still saying that he (me) loves me and wants to save the marriage...hello...is he carzy...I know, that is what everyone is telling me.

I think they are saying that I am doing all this to look good to everyone.

It also sounds like OM mother is in on it too. WW said to best friend things OM mother has told her, love happens, you are an independant woman, I am attracted to some married men, don't take this harrassment...... This is going to devastate OMGF. I feel so bad for her right now. OMGF is very close to OM mother and OM mother has come over to her apt w/OM demanding the truth. What a mess.....

OMGF and I have talked alot in the past two days. From what she is saying OM family is really bugging him. I have talked to OM three times. He still wants me to write an appology letter. I told him that if his story is true (NC w/WW since last summer), I would write one. I told him that I don't believe him.

I didn't come home last night. There would have been no way that I could have held myself together, I stayed at a co-workers place. I really needed some sleep and got it.

WW won't talk to me, she has replied to a couple texts, I just asked her how she was doing. I know that the only way to save this marriage is for OM man to LB and break promises. We'll see what happens. WW is going to sign her lease tomorrow and will leave at her earliest chance. I'm thinking about helping her move. I'm not sure, I may be able to make more LB deposits.

I may be meeting w/OMGF today to show her my evidence. I'll let you know how that goes.

No I don't, and I haven't. I just didn't have any solid proof of contact until now.

I have told OMGF about all my evidence. I am going to share it with her today hopefully. I have been trying to help her deal with all this.

Tell OMGF to tell OM's father what OM's mother is telling your WW. I bet OM's mother's actions are likely to split that household and OM's father will regulate and law down the law.

Again, what state do you live in?

Though that may be a nice little bit of revenge for OM's mother supporting this, I don't think the point is to break up households. The point is to stop the affair and I don't think that will help with this goal.

JMHO I may be (probably) wrong. 2x4 me at will.

Illinois.

From talking to OMGF, I don't think the father is in the picture. Mostly cusins, aunts, uncles from my take.

OM is telling OMGF that he lover her and wants to be with her. He wants and has nothing to do w/WW. OMGF is asking me what to do. I have told her make him give you acces to everything, phone records, emails passwords, and the like. What else can she ask OM to do?

Send and sign a NC letter to your WW. Send OMGF a sample letter.

Tell her to also block WW's email address and phone number, and if he can't, then change it. Then she needs access to all OM's stuff, and he needs to account for his time.

Have your lawyer send OM a cease and decist notice to stop contacting your WW or he will be sued for Alienation of Affection. You don't have to follow through, but a letter from a lawyer might scare him.

Ok, that sounds good.

What sould I do with my VAR rvidnce? It is solid, but illeagl in IL. I very leerie about sharing it.

Refer OMGF here!

Don't know about the VAR. Even if you can't use it in legal proceedings you can still use it to prove they still have contact and that you're not off your rocker, ya know?

What VAR? You got your information from "sources."

Just tell OMGF that you got this information but you can't share how because it may or may not be illegal in the state of IL, then wink at her. If you tell her, she will tell OM, then OM will tell your WW.

Right.....
I know that OMGF will want to use it. It would really help her sitch. I am worried for her.

She already knows that I am useing a VAR and GPS. She knows not to tell OM. I trust her, we are in the same boat, minus our legal conection with our signifacant other.

I had the exact same experience with a VAR the first day I bought it. She laughingly mocked me and declared how scary and crazy and angry I was to XMIL and XBIL. She lied about and distorted everything.

It started with a pleasant enough conversation between the two of us about our day and some maintenance issues about DD18. Then I left for basketball practice and within 2-minutes she was on the phone with her also adulterous brother and just started a foaming rant about me and the marriage.

Funny too. She told them both she had slaved away cleaning the house all weekend because she did feel a little guilty that scary, crazy, angry guy should at least be abandoned with a tidy home. In reality all she did was throw out some newspapers and straighten up a single small bookshelf.

Oh gosh, I sure miss her!

Folks, when we tell you they lie we mean they lie about everything and to everyone.

It is very tough and hurtful to listen to but it can be strengthening and bolstering too.

Personally I think a good VAR is the most useful snooping weapon in the BS arsenal. A real time GPS is a close second. In combination as seen here they are great.

I do always tell people who get their VAR going that they must brace themselves for what they are going to hear their WS say about them. Its one thing to hear the stupid stuff face to face or talk about the script here but it takes on a whole new level of vindictiveness and meanness when they are trying to sell their innocent abused victim hood to others. And they can turn it on like a light switch.

It is a very huge Love Buster moment to listen to this stuff and for me it essentially drained the ol Love Bank dry. Plan B started that night as I escorted her and her stuff to her car and out of MY house.

Oh and of course she could not believe that I had once again, �Invaded her privacy� as she was making and confirming her final plans to destroy our marriage, get the stuff and money she �deserved� and begin her new happy life with her married boyfriend.

I don't know how I have survived the guilt.

It's absolutly amazing.

WW confessed her true love for OM to best friend.

WW: I know that I am wrong for the A, but I'm not ashamed for how I feel for OM.

Someone answer me this? If her love is so true and meaningful, then why lie to everyone about it? I know the answer....

I had a talk w/WW on the phone. She is signing the lease tomorrow and her parents are coming down this weekend to help her move out....Sigh...now what?

Talked to OMGF, she pretty much gave OM an ultimatum. He is saying and doing things to convince her that he wants to stay together. They tried last night to change cell phone #'s but couldn't because OM phone is in his mother's name. I told OMGF to talk to his mom and have her provide her w/the phone records. Not sure if this will happen. OMGF is ready to give up on their relationship. They don't have children together but she has two and OM is like a father to them. We are so confused right now as to what OM is up to.

I know OM is cake eating but OMGF is at a low spot in the ride and is ready to call it quits w/OM. I just told her that if it is the right thing to do today, it will be the right thing to do tomorrow.

I don't post much, but I think OM is waiting for your wife to sign the lease. He is making nice with his GF so she doesn't kick him out before your wife has the apartment.

Good point. I am going to ask for no co-habitation by members of the opposite sex in the temp D orders.

I'm thinking about playing some my evidence from the VAR when WW parents are there helping with the move. I will have my family there too. Is this over the top? I don't know if WW is still standing by her statement that she ended things w/OM.

What do you think?

That is good thinking.

OM is buying OMGF jewelry right now. I told OMGF that is great. If OM is commited to you then have him do a NC letter, access to email and cell phone records...etc.

Tell her to switch phones with him...without warning! Then she should stick to his side all weekend...even watch him in the can!

She'll hear from your wife within an hour.

I think you'd be crazy to give up your source. They are useless to you since they don't care that she's cheating and moving.


Uh, you do have a lawyer working on custody....right?

NW,

Can you go to Bear37's thread and give him your PI info. He needs to get some info on his OM. Thanx.

NW- Have you figured out what YOU want yet? Things are moving very quickly here. I'm not pushing too hard, but you need to figure out if you want to try to recover or not. It seems to me that you do, but I could be wrong.

I think that is good that OM seems to be trying to either placate or keep both his GF and your wife by getting her presents. Shows that GF may still have some influence over him.

It was a good weekend in all. WW took out CPU to work on Friday and convieniently left it there. I would be willing to bet that she thinks that all my secret stuff is on there and I was going to show it to her parents when they were here to help her move out yesterday.

Ok, so WW has moved out, I called my family and had them all over at the house yesterday for support and to help WW move out. WW's parents came down too. She took from the house what she needed, bedroom furnature, our old TV, kitchen table etc...We worked out a custody plan w/NW5, everything is 50/50. Starting next month she will pay me half of the car payment for her car. The loan is in my name, she will pay me until she can buy out my loan. We will split daycare expenses, otherwise there is no support. I have a meeting with my lawyer in 30 min.

My family is very upset but very supportive of me. They are all aware of my plan and we are all on the same page. I have my sisters set up as IM.

I am in Plan B now. I will post again later today, gotta run to see my lawyer...

I want recovery. I still love my WW. I have known for a while now that it would have to come to this point. Now that I'm here it doesn't seem to be real. On mother's day she left her life, a nice house, a husband who loves her, security, and gave her son up half of the time. She moved her son into an unknown evironment, no yard to play in, and a parking lot for a driveway. Sigh....

OMGF and I talk about every other day. I really think that one of these days you might see a new thread with her side of the story in it. She tells me she has been on the site and has done alot of reading. I told her if she wants good advice on what to do then start a thread. We'll see. She is my biggest hope right now...

So I wrote a Plan B letter and gave it to WW on Sunday before she left our house. I couldn't post it here first becasue WW left our CPU at work for the weekend. I used the Plan B letter from SAA as an outline. I figured that I wouldn't be too far off the mark. I really didn't know she would be moving out that early. The letters to OM family pushed her over the edge.

She thinks I'm acting crazy. Crazy for what I have done to end her A. That's all she can seem to see right now. I had a good talk w/WW in front of her parents about our sitch. I said that I still love WW and my intentions for revealing her A was to try and end it. From what I can tell they are dissapointed in WW but as long as she is happy the everything will be ok...Oh well, that's not going to affect my plan.

I'm going to mow the yard when I get home and move back into my room.

Thinking about you Now_What.

NW- Haven't heard from you in a while. What's going on? How are you holding up? Let us know what's happening alright?

Its possible that he still doesnt have a pc at home after his wife took it SoL..

Good point. I will give him a call to check on him. Thanks.

Hello,
Yep, no pc since WW moved out last Sunday. I have stayed off this site at work also because I get consumed and get absolutely nothing done. Been a nice break actually, no offense intended. My family brought me a pc yesterday and I figured out how to connect the wireless keyboard today...love technology.

Well, I'm feeling pretty good actually. My worst night was my first night w/NW5. After I put him to bed I broke down, I just couldn't understand why she would give up half her time w/NW5, a nice and safe home, and a husband who was willing to love her again to be with OM. I got over it, her loss. NW5 and I seem to have more fun now, I think it is because of my new freedom from WW. I feel so much better now that she is gone.

As far as what now. Well, still in Plan B with no desire to drag the D out. Reviewing everything she has done, the reality of the situation, has left me ready to move on.
-She has filed for D
-She moved out
-She is in a relationship w/OM for longer than our M.
-She has cheated on me at least 2 times, probably 3, maybe more.
-"I" have not been happy for years and having this week to myself (minus my days w/NW5) has been an eye opener of sorts.

If she de-foggifies (is that a word) prior to the ink drying then I may think about recovery. I really don't know how I would act at this point, my head is telling me to move on, the roller coaster seems to be leveling out. As of now, I have NW5 50% of the time and no CS, no alimony, only my lawyer fees. I don't think that I could ask for anything better given the circumstances.

Anyone else feel this way after WS moved out?

Does anyone see hope for recovery?

Thanks SoL,
I wouldn't have tried to connect my wireless keyboard for a few more days.

Thanks for the support...you deserve a raise after you complete your school..haha

Sounds like you a doing well given the circumstances.

Cherish NW5 for all you're worth. My two boys have been my refuge through all of this. I value every moment that I spend with them and my relationship with my 9 year old has really strengthened in the last few months. There are times I catch myself being distant and moody around the kids, but I try to catch myself and snap out of it for their sake.

It sounds to me like you are ready to move on. I know many on here, even Dr. Harley, hold out hope until the ink is dry on the D papers, but I don't think I'm wired that way. One of us filing is going to be the giant signal that it's time to move on.

NW,

All you feel is very normal. I recommend you go to a Plan B. It is tough to do with a child, but it is certainly possible if you limit all your interactions and communications with the WW to issues directly relating to your son.

This does not mean that your son becomes the excuse for contact. I fell into that trap.

Put it this way: I was given the guidance by a professional that said that unless there is blood on the floor and someone about to die that there should be no communication with my ex.

This was very good guidance. My ex, for example, would call me up to chew me out about some things which were none of her business. She used the excuse of asking about the kids, but the contact really wasn't necessary. This includes things such as minor illnesses and colds. Short of your son being on the verge of going to the hospital, the ex doesn't need to know about what you do when he is with you and vice versa.

I learned to hang up on her. I would ask, "Is someone on the way to the hospital? No? Ok. Please feel free to write me about any concnerns you may have."

I would then hang up. It would normally be followed up by call after call I'd ignore and some rather nasty voicemails, but she eventually got the message.

Emails were equally important to filter. I would skim through them if they weren't about truly important things about the kids.

Taking this approach helps you emotionally and helps you move on.

You have a bunch of legal things in the air right now. The reality is that if you have 50/50, then I encourage you to settle for the status quo in mediation. This will save you thousands and lots of emotional heartache.

The sooner it ends, the sooner you can move on. The day may come when your WW thinks differently about what she has done, but I can guarantee you that the day will come when you're happy she's out of your life and will welcome the peace.

It will take a while. Took me over 3 years to get there. I might have gotten there sooner if I didn't have this massive legal battle to fight which kept me emotionally engaged.

There is hope for her to defog before the divorce is final, but it is not something you should count on or expect. If anything, expect nothing.

I'm following your thread closely and can offer advice based on my encounters with the law. Your 50/50 arrangement puts you in a good place. I'd like to recommend the following arrangement for you in terms of 50/50:

Have your son be with you on Monday and Tuesday, with her on Wednesday and Thursday, and then you alternate weekends. (you can always flip the days of the week the other way)

This keeps your days of the week the same every week, which makes scheduling things very easy for you and your son. The arrangement where he's with you one week and with her the next is very disruptive.

The one I suggest sounds chaotic at first, but it really settles your son and you into a routine.

Best of luck.

Hello all. I am the OMGF. NW contacting me has been both the best and worst things that could have ever happened to me. My life has changed so fast as it has only been a couple of weeks since I received NW letter in the mail.

My side: I don't know what to do. Since day one my BF has and still is denying the A. Like NW said before, I confronted them both years ago and again back in Oct. 2009. I have not been as strong as NW. I have contact with my BF everyday, several times a day. My 2 boys don't even know that he has moved out! He still attends all school functions, makes their lunches, tucks them in at night, etc. He doesn't want them to know that things are this way. He is here when they wake up, here when they go to bed, but he lives with his mother now. His mother suggest that we work things out this way. I'm not sure how I feel. I have not told my boys because I do not want to hurt them. Should I tell them? My BF continues to express his love for me, claim he is in love with me and that he is not the one involved with NW Wife. Claims he wants to rebuild our relationship so that I will trust him and we can get married. (Fat chance!) We are still attending weekly functions with both his family and mine together, but both families know of the situation. As NW suggested to me, I have access codes and email passwords. No activity besides the day our families received letter from NW. But now, the tables have turned. My BF accuses me of cheating and not trusting me now. Because I have grown distant and silent with him. He jumps to conclusions about every little thing now. I think I am over this. What to do next?

A little more info to how BF has been acting since letter surfaced... He calls and text me non stop when he isn't here or when we are apart. He asks me to come have lunch with him at work (as his job he is not able to leave for lunch)I can honestly say that if he is in contact with NW wife, I don't know when or how. I am not ready to trust him, I do not even think I want our relationship back after this.

CF2010
You knowing is the best thing to keep this affair dead.

NW

WW being cutoff from OM may get her through the fog.
Did you ever get a DNA test for your kid. Time of the affair makes one wonder. Proof of you not being the dad will make it hard for the WW to deny the affair.

TR - interesting thought - I was thinking more in the lines of some post partum hormonal imbalance when this started. Heck what do I know.

Hi Confused2010,
So good to hear from you. I'm glad you are here, this is the best place to be if you are interested in recovery, be it of your relationship or for yourself.

The last time we talked, you were on the way to get cell phone records. How did that turn out? If nothing surfaced then I would suspect that my WW bought him an "affair" phone.

Your BF tells you that he loves you and texts you when he is away and seems to be doing the things that would lead you to believe that he wants a relationship with you, Yet he moved out with his mother? Is this for your benefit?

I am in Plan B since my WW moved out on mother's day, I have had no contact with her and she has made no attempt to contact me. All our communication goes through my sister. I have no idea what WW is doing or acting so I cannot help you anymore in that regard. But I think you know the truth. You saw your BF's car that night when I told you where my WW was. You have your BF's phone records for Oct 09.

Start your own thread for the best advice for your situation, make a plan, control your relationship, be active, not reactive. What is your goal? To have your BF there for you and your kids in the morning and evening, while in the meantime having sex with my wife, as he is texting his love to you?

What is best for you and your family? Make a plan, follow it, and recover.....I hope to read your new thread soon.

I doubt that there is NC, it would have to be initiated by OM and I really don't see that.

No DNA test. None needed, OM is not white. I do not want to go there anyway, I am NW5's father, regardless of any test.

WW has not denied the A, she has admitted to oral sex. I have her on DAR saying there is more to it than that. OM has denied everything. His story is very weak but he seems to be sticking to his guns. OM told me that he has had NC w/WW since Jul 09, yet OMGF has phone records in Oct 09 that tell a different story.

I haven't thought about that. We married 3 weeks after NW5 was born, we dated for 4 years prior to that. One month after we married is when OMGF (confused2010) called me and asked me if I knew who the father of NW5 was. WW and OM had at least an EA prior to WW being prego and our marriage. Confused2010 saw that proof in work emails.

"One month after we married is when OMGF (confused2010) called me and asked me if I knew who the father of NW5 was."

All the reason to get a DNA test. Their are many mixed race that can pass for white and do.

DNA test will not make DD stop loving you.

Confused,

You haven't started your own thread, so I will write to you here.

Please do not be one of those women who has to have a man in her life regardless of the circumstances. You have little kids. They don't need the instability in their lives.

You deserve better than this. Set the emotions aside and think about what you would tell a friend in your shoes. Please don't stick with someone that has so little regard for you.

Put your kids first. Focus on them. You don't need a man in your life.

The day you come to accept that is one of the happiest days you can have. It also makes it ideal for a good man to come into your life. One that is happy to have you in it versus needing to have you in it.

NW, time heals. You're just a few weeks into this. It will take years to feel normal again, but the separation from the ex will help you move along.

Focus on your son. That is the number one thing for you to do.

TR,
You make a good point that I have been dodging. Maybe I am in denial. Maybe I am afraid that if I found out that I'm not NW5's bio father that I would look at him or treat him differently. I think I'm afraid too to relinquish that title to an AP, whoever that might be. Honestly, this thought scares the crap out of me.

htld,
Thank you for all you advice thus far. So far, time has healed. Since she left I have been a ease. Part of it is knowing that I did what I thought to be right during Plan A. Yes I made my fair share of mistakes and didn't expose like I would have done it now. But what is done is done. Time will tell..

But is it dead? How will I really know. He has only done everything to prove to me that it isn't him. NW Wife only says the same thing. Why are they protecting one another if they want to be together? Look at the lengths this has gone to. NW wife has moved out, my guy now is sleeping most nights at his mothers home.. What are we to do?

THank you so much for giving me advice! I need to hear it all.

None of this has played out how I thought. I am probably 95% emotionally detached from my ex at this point. He is very much a mamas boy. His mother and I are very close as well. She asked him to stay with her while we work this out. (I don't know why, but whatever mom says goes. It has always been this way and I;ve been fine with that. I love the fact that he respects and does so much for her. He would never disrespect his mother.) I have allowed him to be around my boys for their sake, not mine. He is claiming to want to earn my trust back, but that has nothing to do with my boys. He has kept his same routine with them, as if nothing has happened. Has breakfast with them, makes their lunch, puts them on bus, calls and text them still and tucks them in at night. Also still has continued his alone time on the weekends with them. I just don't want to take that from them at this point. Am I wrong for that? My only plan right now is to tell them what is really going on after school is out. I figured I would take them on vacation alone. My boys are extremely smart, my oldest has skipped a grade. .

Good morning MB,
I had a great weekend w/NW5! We planted some bushes in the front yard on saturday. NW5 had the hose and we had fun getting wet and watering the new bushes. Sunday we went to the zoo with my buddy from work and his 2yo D. NW5 really took to my buudy, it was so cute. I have NW5 for the next 2 days.

We have a set schedule w/NW5 right now. I have every Mon and Tues, WW has every Wed and Thurs, and we alternate every Fri-Sun. Question: Do women/mothers agree to 50/50 like this normaly? I take it as WW wants to be single and pursue her new lifestyle, and haveing NW5 around all the time would be a buzz-kill.

OMGF (Confused2010) is posting on the board now and has her own thread. Seeing her here and reading her thread has been difficult. It's almost like I went through D-Day all over again. It has also re-newed my HOPE. I don't know if that's good or bad.

I have been thinking alot about WW over the weekend. Been thinking about what recovery would look like if she de-foggifies. On one hand I want her back and I think that we could work throught this whole mess. On the other, Wow, that's a big mess! I don't know if I could ever get to the bottom of it and be able to live in what's left. I know it can be done as RIF is a stellar example.

Right now I would still be willing to work on recovery if WW were able to meet my conditions. I just don't know what to do. If OM truly has established NC, then should I come out of PB? Maybe be there before there is OM#2. As of now there has still been NC between me and WW.

This Plan B stuff sucks right now. I have this desire to send WW an email or something to let her know that I am still here and how I feel. I want to tell her that I miss her and go off on her at the same time. I can't stop thinking about what recovery would look like and how good our marriage might be. Last week I was content and just wanted to move on. A few things have happened since then that have me feeling this way, seeing OMGF, news w/the lawyer, and reading here.

My lawyer sent WW a petition for discovery, and a set of interrogtions last week. I liked what I saw on both. We are asking for all finacial records, phone logs, diaries, emails, about 35 differant requests in all. The interrogation questions are pretty spot on too. I also responded to her petition for D and temp relief. Reading all this I had lawyer draft up a cease and desist all contact order to OM otherwise we will file for AoA. I like the timing of the petition for discovery and the AoA going to OM, should be w/in a week of each other. I didn't assault this one but I think I'll do it now. I just need to make sure that I'm not doing this out of resentment.

I waffled on exposure and I am waffling on the AoA. Was I scared? Yes, but I have other reasons for not assaulting through the ambush also. I need/ed to make sure that I am doing this for the right reasons. What are my real motivations? Am I trying to be controlling? Am I doing this out of resentment? The answer is, I don't know for sure because I really don't know if I would want to be in this marriage. Does that make sense?

Hey NW,



You wouldn't go into combat and not use all of the weapons available to you would you? Your lawyer is one of your weapons in protecting you and NW5 from this frontal assault on your M by OM... if he recommends filing an AoA lawsuit, then by all means... USE IT!!!

Don't second guess your actions here NW! You didn't start this war... and you don't have to sit idly by while your WW and OM lob handgrenades at you and NW5. Keep the heat on both your WW and the OM and don't back down one inch until you reach your objective.



I don't think you're controlling. I don't think that you're resentful. I think that you are doing the best that you can to protect yourself and NW5 from your WW and OM as they try to destroy your family. Now, having said that, only you can decide if you still want your WW as part of the "family"...

No matter what your decision is, that I think you should continue to use any and all weapons at your disposal... then after the smoke clears, YOU can decide whether you want your WW to be part of the family.

Semper Fi,

RIF

Who cares? Your WW brought this on herself. At least exposing her to some consequences of her actions might make her think twice (only twice and she'll still probably do it) before doing this to the next guy. Personally, I think your WW is just a narcissistic, self-absorbed leach who was never marriage material. As much as I hate the fact you and NW5 are going through this pain right now, I'm glad your are hopefully freeing yourself from this abuser who was NEVER faithful to you from day one. I applaud your attempt to save your marriage through all this adversity, but I just hope that you learn from this to choose a more suitable partner in the future. You have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to apologize for.

Exactly. Right now I just feel like I'm using these weapons because I have them. I don't fell like I really care at this point. I think about how I miss her and then go right into everything that she has done and it discusts me. My heart isn't really in it at this point. I'm just in it for the ride, and we'll see where we're at in the end of this. Is this a resentful approach?

No. Don't worry about it anymore.

You're right! Who cares? So I should file the AoA to scare POSOM and drag this thing out to hurt her pocket book because the way they have treated me? I won't do that for those reasons.

I agree w/everything that you said about WW.

I'm saying do whatever YOU feel like doing with absolutely ZERO regard for POSOM or WstbxW. Your only considerations should be yourself and NW5, not those other two yahoos. Don't let them manipulate you into anything. Break free from your WW's abuse.

Thanks Jim.

What is WstbxW?

I'm guessing 'Wayward Soon To Be X-Wife'.

TBC

First thing is fire your lawyer.

Why waste money when you are sending your lawyer to fight with his hands tied.

Either fight for your marriage or go plan B and divorce. There is no such thing as being half pregnant. Either fight or get out of the ring.

Turn your lawyer loose. File AOA suit.

How is not filing the AoA tieing my lawyer's hands? Why drag out the D when right now when I am sitting as good as could possibly ask for w/NW5, 50/50, no CS, no maintenance, and I have the house? Yes I understand that recovery and to have both parents together in a healthy M would be the absolute best case scenario.

Truth is when I get hope, is when I get resentful and angry at WW and OM. I hold on to the pain and misery and embrace it.

WW has never been honest with me in the 10 years that we have been together. She got pregnant and we married. I made the mistake and did what I thought to be the honorable thing, but you know what? She said YES. Now I know a whole lot more about her dark, dirty, scummy, parking garrage and who knows what else secret. She left, she filed for D, and she is probably with OM right now. Filing an AoA and dragging out a D to put these two lovebirds in a pinch is going to save my marriage?

I exposed, I Plan A'd the best that I could, she moved out on Mother's day and I'm in Plan B since.

So tell me, what HOPE do you see in this situation and why should I have it? I'm going to wait for as long as two years for this woman, who has done nothing to prove to me that she is deserving of my love? I'm not putting myself through this anymore. I am going to move on for my own serenity.

I will protect what is best for myself and NW5. That is the hill that I will die on.

I think it still boils down to what do YOU want? From your last post it sounds as if you are through. Nothing wrong with that. If that is the direction you want to go, I will support you either way. If you definately want out, then I would try to get the deal done as quickly as possible and move on.

Edit: If you do want the marriage, then continue your Plan B. It' has only been a couple weeks though. Patience is in order if that is the route you wish to go. Check out Scotland's thread for Plan B tips.

I want to live my life with out anger and resentment. I'm not going to let these two control my emotions.

She made her bed, she can do whatever she wants in it. I still will continue Plan B, but I'm going to do the legal and other battles for the right motivations if that makes sense.

You can still file the AoA and not drag things out. Who knows, maybe that will end contact for good, and your WW will come crawling back. Who knows. At least it will make OM sweat.

By filing the AOA lawsuit, you put more pressure on the OM to end the affair. He's already trying to hang onto his relationship with his GF, so the more pressure you put on him, the more likely he is to think that boinking your WW is waaaaay more trouble than she's worth. Defending himself against an AOA lawsuit is also expensive, so that adds another level of pressure on him.

Aaaaaand the OM may think twice in the future about going after another MW.

NW,

I�m with you on your approach. It doesn�t hurt to file the AOA, even if it goes nowhere for lack of evidence. I think you�ll regret not doing it down the road as you go through your own personal recovery.

I can also empathize with the sentiment you�re expressing regarding the doubts about whether or not to save things. It�s understandable.

The fact is that you have a good deal right now, with the status quo. Time will heal your wounds and the anger you currently feel will eventually give way to acceptance and then indifference.

Indifference is a wonderful place to be. Your WXW eventually becomes as relevant to you as a stranger, with the exception that you have to deal with her in regards to your kids.

After what I�ve been through, I don�t think I could forgive infidelity in any way. I know what personal recovery looks like and that eventually things settle down and you feel normal again and are grateful to have the cheater out of your life. If she�s been sucking the life out of you all these years, then you can find someone who doesn�t do that. It�s a wonderful thing when you do find it.

It�s not the ideal scenario in regards to your son, but things eventually settle down and get better. Perhaps she�ll wake up someday. Don�t hold your breath waiting.

I didn't stop the AoA. I got this in the mail from my lawyer today.


RE: WW

OM,
I represent NW. The purpose of this letter is to demand that you cease all communication with his wife, WW. I have begun to draft a lawsuit against you, claiming Alienation of Affection among other things, and I will file this lawsuit with the court on 07 Jun 2010, if I have not received confirmation from you that you have ceased all communication with WW.

Also, I am planning on sitting you down for a disposition in my client's divorce case. A disposition is allowed to last 3 hours. Out of courtesy to you, I request that you provide me with a general work schedule so that my office can schedule the disposition at a time that is most convenient to you.

Best Regards,Lawyer...


Well, I'm sure that this will do something. I'll be interested to see what info Confused2010 can provide as to his reaction.

NW-LOVE YOUR LAWYER.

Yeah, I really loved the "among other things" jab in there..

I have begun to draft a lawsuit against you, claiming Alienation of Affection among other things, and I will file this lawsuit with the court on 07 Jun 2010, if I have not received confirmation from you that you have ceased all communication with WW.


YAAAAAAAAAAAAA HOOOOOOOOOO !!!!!!!!!!!!

That is great. Enjoy the show.

I'm a bit worried as to how I am going to react to this.

Can anyone tell me the difference between Hope and Expectation? Maybe if I could figure this out I would be able to control my emotions a little better.

I'll give it a try.....

To me, hope is simply wanting something to happen, or longing for an outcome. Expectation is a little more than hope, because you actually think that it will happen, setting yourself up for a disappointment if it doesn't happen.

You may HOPE to win the lottery. You have an EXPECTATION that you will be paid on the 1st and 15th.

For my case, I really hope my marriage works out. I don't really expect it to. This difference empowers me to improve myself for myself. In that process I still hope that it has a positive effect on my WW, but I don't expect it to. Does that help any? I was just shooting from the hip on that one, but that's the big difference to me.

After I posted the question, I knew the answer. The real challenge for me is to not turn any hope into an expectation. I expect a certain result of an action that would better my chances at recovery....more hope.

When I don't get/see reactions to my actions I get frustrated and build my resentment. I then question my reasons for whatever action and second guess my motivations.

I think too much and I'm probably way off mark.

You always ask me what I want, I think I answered correctly the other day. I want to live w/o resentment and anger...peace.

NW,

It may not go anywhere, but that AOA threat is awesome and one which you�ll be content to live with when you look back. You did something, even if it goes nowhere. The penalty for adultery, in many states, is $20.

You are handling things smartly. You know to keep your emotions in check, which is fantastic.

Expect little from the legal system. Expect nothing from your WW. Hope for the best in both and implement actions to help achieve those goals.

My experience with the legal system is that 90% of the battles are fought out of the court room and between the lawyers. It�s expensive and it is as much a psychological battle against your ex as it is anything else. Lawyers can file a million documents and only have few that have any merit, but the impact of having documents filed, even if they go nowhere, have a BIG impact on the ex spouse. Seeing a false claim in writing in a legal format was devastating to me. Countering such claims felt good and allowed me to punch back. But hindsight tells me that most of these things went nowhere and ultimately didn�t matter when it came to going to court.

The judge in my case saw through all the fluff and focused on the meat of the matter. He saw I wasn�t the monster they tried to portray me as and so did the kid�s attorney. I also had a ton of people show up on my court day, outnumbering her side 2 to 1. That has a big impact on a judge. When they see ministers, cops, co-workers, and fully uniformed officers show up to support someone, they certainly get the impression that the guy they�re standing up for can�t be all that bad of a guy. When family comes in from all over, that matters as well. In my case, my sis flew in all the way from outside of the country.

I offer these ideas to you to keep in mind for down the road.

In a way it was overkill. We used up too much time with witnesses saying how good a guy I was. There wasn�t enough time left for me to make my own case.

Keep that in mind as well. Have some witnesses available for show and select a handful for testimony on your behalf. Save the majority of the time for yourself to make your own case as a father.

My sister is my IM. Here are a couple of emails.

"Also, Friday June 4th is my last day of work. So from that point on, I will be keeping NW5 at home for the summer. You (Sis1) and Sis2 will be picking up and dropping off NW5 at my place then. And starting then as well, I won't be able to check my work email so you will have to email my yahoo address. I told NW a while back that on his days during the week that if ever took the day off that he could have NW5 during the day as well on his days. Thanks"

She has the summers off. We made plans prior to her leaving that she would be watching NW5 during the summer. We'll see how long that lasts. Previous summers we still did daycare part-time so WW could have some time for herself.


and..

"Ok, that sounds good. I do have NW5's windbreaker. Also, I ended up paying daycare $500, so that must have been for his mistake. He should give me the check for that"

I wrote the chect to day care for the wrong ammount. I wrote the $ ammount correctly but I spelled out the ammount wrong.


This screams of entitlement to me. Is it ok to have your IM go off on WW? haha, I know they are supposed to be impartial but I think that they souldn't put up with her crap too.

Now_what,

I read the letter that you posted...sounds good. I just wish it had more specific threats in it! I have not gotten anything in the mail as of yet. We have had some issues with our mail person. They are doing some remodeling work in our front office and I don't know whats going on with the mail. (we haven't gotten any in almost a week) You should send it to his mother's home! That will ensure he gets it in a timely fashion. I want him to get it ASAP. Also, did I read correctly that you have told your WW about this website?

I have been following your thread without posting and trying to learn some things-

now_what: thanks for asking the question on hope versus expectation.

SickofLimbo: nicely done in your reply. Helped me a lot.

I think it is a neat dynamic that both you and Confused2010 are able to some to the same place for a plan of action and for healing.

LOG,
thanks for taking the time. It seems for me that I learn things better seeing how NOT to do things. HOPE that's you case too.

Hope vs. expectation...I think there is something inside me that processes this wrong. It's like if I don't keep telling myself, "no expectations", then by default my hope turns into an expectation. No telling what happens next.

Well, with this being a holiday weekend, I doubt that asking my lawyer to send another one out would get it there ASAP. I think we may have a better shot at calling the post office or standing outside your front office.

Yeah, I told WW there were alot websites that I was "learning" on. I had her read truehearts letter and I took her to a couple differant sites. I was drinking her kool-aid at the time. She knew that I was up to something on the cpu and later asked me about it. I told her that I was posting on some Dr. Phil marriage forum.

There is a specific threat: AoA...and non specific..."among other things". How do you think he will receive the letter?

And there is nothing wrong with that at all. I'm with you brother. Take it one day at a time.

I have no idea what to say, I just feel the need to write.

I got a call from Confused this morning. I find it's a trigger to talk or see her thread. It's like a take a few stwps back in my recovery or distancing myself from WW. I knew that I would have to get to this point, WW moving out and OM LB'ing, but it's difficult to handle expieriencing it from the OMGF point of view. I think that something new will happen soon in her relationship.

I know that I have alot going for me, but it just sucks right now. It's hard for me right now to comprehend what WW is expecting from OM, or what she sees in her near future. I know that I shouldn't go there but I'm there and it's hard to get away from that.

Well, I just got off the phone w/OM. The conversation went something like this.

OM: You F'ed w/ the wrong man. If you want me to F#ck with your wife, I'll F#ck with your wife. I've done my research on you too, I don't give a F#ck if you're in the military, I don't give a F#ck if you're a sergeant.....you don't have any proof...

I asked him if he called my lawyer, I gave him my proof. I said that all I want for him is to stay out of my family and break all contact w/my wife. I also let him know that I recorded the conversation, that's when he said that he didn't give a F#ck etc..

Well, he knows where I live. I'm here w/NW5 tonight and I'm sure he knows that, the doors are locked. I'm calling my lawyer tomorrow. I have no idea what to expect next from OM.

He doesn't like the pressure you are applying. Keep applying it. File the AOA.

I hear you Jim,

I think the general consensus is the OM are cowardly and don't have a backbone etc...How much should I put into his threats? Has anyone experienced a violent OM?

I'm sure there has been one before, but they usually are cowards. I would just expose this call to his GF AND family. Show him you aren't afraid of him and you will expose him to the consequences of his behavior every time he crosses you.

I'll have to rely on C2010 for the family part.

Since I have NW5 tonight, that means that WW may get a visit from OM tonight (WW moved 4 miles from my house, OM live 35 min away). Especially in light of the AoA letter, My gut is telling me that if something happens, it may be tonight. I hope I'm not being paranoid.

I called one of my buddies and he is coming over to stay with me tonight. I also think that C2010 may give me a heads up if something is to happen. Oh yeah, I have my 80lb pitbull too, not sure much help he'll be though as OM has probably given him a doggie treat before.

It's nice that you have friends that can do this. Be sure to thank him with a six pack or something!

Men who mess with another man's wife know that what they are doing is wrong. They have little reason to fight for the piece they are getting "on the side."

In my case, OM bests me by about six inches in height and twenty pounds in weight, not to mention he's 14 years younger.

Yet I've told people (who also know him) that if he ever wants to meet with me, I'll make sure I take what the doctors left behind (you have to read my thread to understand that comment).

He's been seen nowhere in the area since I outed him and my wife.

I was a bit worried last night as OM seemed pretty upset and I didn't want anything to happen with NW5 being here. I very seriously doubt that this guy would do anything. He's scared, and you're right Fred, he has little reason to fight.

So there has been no contact w/WW since she moved out until today. She texted me an hour ago.

WW:Thanks for forgetting to put the Wii games in MW5's bag!

I called my IM and asked her to call WW and apologize and ask tell WW that I could drop them off at daycare tomorrow. I also told IM to tell WW that if she needed to contact me to go through IM. My IM called back a few minutes later and said not to worry about the nintendo games, she went out and bought a couple already. WW also said that she was a little upset about me forgetting the games. IM said that WW reacted sarcastically when she was reminded to go through the IM for communication.

Seriously!! WW went out and bought a couple Wii games?! She must have dropped close to $100.00. It's not like NW5 can't go one night w/o the Nintendo!

I also think that the text coming one day after OM getting the AoA letter is no coincidence.

Not sure how I should digest the text. Is it good or bad sign that WW texted me, regardless if she was pissed.

Okay, well it is GOOD that you contacted your IM when sending a message to WW. The only problem is, you sent a message about an improper message. You see, when your WW sends you ANYTHING, DELETE IT IMMEDIATELY. You don't respond to it in anyway. It didn't even happen. IGNORE IGNORE IGNORE.

Also, you are no longer going to contact OM either now, right? Just make sure that you go DARK on this Plan B.

I didn't even think about NC w/OM for me. When he called yesterday I though it was C2010 and I was really surprised.

Ok, IGNORE..etc..I can do that. Should I still have contacted IM though about the contact?

Nope. You should have just said NOTHING. You IGNORE your WW when she sends anything to you that is NOT an emergency.

Also, your IM shouldn't have told you that she was sarcastic or crunchy when you passed on your message. These are the things you are supposed to be protected from. Your IM could have said, "No need to drop off the games(although, you shouldn't have sent a message about that anyways). I passed on the message about NC." That's IT.

Gotcha

WW,
Since you know about this site now, I hope that you read my thread and see my love for our family. All those crazy things that I did were not to look good, or to be the good one in this whole mess. I did all those crazy things because I value you and I still want to recover our marriage. Not for me, not for you or our beautiful son, but for ALL of us. I know that if we apply and live the Marriage Builder principals that we will have a wonderful healthy marriage, there is absolutely no doubt. There is nothing that we can't overcome together.

I invite you start your own thread so you can tell your side of the story. It's been pretty one sided so far. This forum is a great place to get advice and direction, whether you want recovery or divorce.

NW,

That's why you don't want to clue in OMGF to this site because eventually they'll blow your cover.

NW's WW,

You are a true narcissist and a disgusting human being. NW will be better off without you. He won't have to worry about you blowing everybody at work anymore. I know you have used sex to get your needs met up to this point, but that well is about to dry up pretty soon and then you'll be left growing old alone. Good riddance to you. You've abused NW enough.

NW,

How does she know about this site? How does she know about the forum? How does she know you're NW?

Here's legal advice: Don't take any ownership for anything posted on here.

It's all heresay legally. Unless an IP address can be linked directly to you along with admin logs, it is nothing more than heresay.

Not only that, but any reproductions of the postings on this site can be altered, so any printed out copies of this website presented to you could be changed in some way, which allows you to honestly neither confirm or deny that these alleged postings are actually yours.

It would end up costing your WW tons of money to pursue an avenue which really doesn't matter to a judge anyways. For one thing, none of our postings are admissable since they are heresay.

I openly mocked my ex's attorney on this site when I was going through my stuff. I advise you not to do that, but none of it mattered. MB falls into the category of "background noise" that judges are very skilled at sifting through.

They really don't care about what you post online. Unless you're a danger to your kid, they really and truly don't care.

I'd still be careful on what I'd post, however, since your ex will use this site to spy on you and what is happening in your life and if you're in a Plan B, then you won't be dark to her.

I know that someone has told WW about some of my snooping methods and maybe SOME of my evidence. I know that OM knows about some other evidence. Two differant people knowing two differant pieces of evidence that I did not share w/anyone that wasn't supportive of saving the two relationships involved.

Someone that supports adultery and child neglect found my thread and shared it with the two adulterers.

Funny thing is that I didn't share all of my evidence on this forum.

Truth is, I am not ashamed of anything that I have posted on this thread. I have had a rant from time to time, and I have waffled back and forth on what I want, what is best and my motivations. I would like everyone to read my posts that is interested. It is the truth..

NW,

NW,
When we last spoke, I told you that I suspected something. Remember I asked you if you had shown your WW this site, and you said something of the sort to yes..I have not posted anything since because I did not want either of them to know about this.

NW,
I can assure you that you are in no danger. OM will not hurt you. He has never even been in a fight. He was just angry. Like I told you when I spoke with you that next morning, he must have called you when I was in the shower, because we were home all night...
But not to worry, he isn't a fighter.

You say that someone has told her about your snooping methods.

I'm not sure what to think anymore. I don't want this to consume me and I want to learn to trust again. I can't be this person who doesn't trust, it is driving me to act a way that I do not like.

jmwc95,
you are wrong about me.

NW's WW,
WE have spoken before and you lied to me then. You even made a racist remark to make me think that you were not interested in my guy. Unfortunately for you, I am more connected to people in your place of work than you think. As you know, I have worked with and still have relationships with most of your coworkers. The only thing these people have to say about you is that you are a very loose and sad person. You have given multiple guys at your job oral sex. I'm not sure what you are trying to do but I have decided I won't give up on my guy without a fight. I have contacted all of the women I know at your job and filled them in. The "eldest" woman at your job has suggested I get together with your "old" boss and talk. She claims he will have some very interesting things to tell me about you and some of your coworkers. Good luck in life, you will need it. I won't let you win that easily. I hope NW runs far away from you. You aren't worth the effort he is putting into this. He is a good guy, and deserves a good woman, and you are far from that. However, since you like giving oral sex to random guys, you should look into prostitution as a second job. Instead of you paying these strangers, you could get paid!

OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I really hope NW sees your messages Confused...

smileygirl,

I hope so too. I'm guessing he was advised to break contact with me too. Honestly, I thought we were on the same team, that we both wanted the same outcome..to have them both end this A. I guess we all have to deal with it in our own way.

I'll give him a call and ask him if he will check his thread.

There were several times during Plan A that I was ready to throw in the towel and show WW everything. The times I had those feelings my mindset was for closure, I had had enough of the lies and I really wanted to confront WW with all my evidence so the lies would stop. I have since been able to deal with that better. I know the truth and that will set me free.

I am fairly certain that either WW family or best friend has clued her into this website. Not a big deal, I don't care. Like I said earlier, I have nothing to hide. I have gotten some stellar legal advice, but that is all it is...advice. My lawyer has the green light from me to do what is best for mine and NW5's interests. He knows what I want, that is what is best for NW5.

As for finding out my snooping and evidence? Good for you my lovely wife. You now know...that I know about your little secrets. And yes, I didn't share everything to this forum. You see, once I found proof, that is all that I felt I needed to share here. The most damning...well...you figure it out.

Knowing what I know now:
What do I want? Well, when I ask myself that question I get a different answer every time. So I know that I can't trust myself to answer honestly.

What is best for NW5? Well, he can answer that himself, and in fact he said something of that today.

NW5: We're going on a boat ride ?!?!...Is mommy coming?!?!?!?!....Owwww, why not?

I ask myself those two questions everyday. I Know why WW left and the truth....I still want my wife to come back home. The bar is set high, and I know that it will be a very difficult healing process. I will not settle for what we had before, I want to learn and grow together. If it's not together...it's WW's loss.

WW has made some pretty deep scars here, who knows how deep they will be for NW5. Right now, I am healing them without her and with a lot of help from others. It sucks pretty bad, but I know it will get better. I also know that the best way for these scars to heal for me and NW5 will be with reconciliation. So until these scars are all healed up, the door is open for reconciliation

I felt pretty vulnerable after OM called. I had NW5 in the house with me and I had no idea what OM was thinking. He got pretty upset when I told him that i was recording the conversation.

Being in the Army and hanging around a bunch of Infanrty guys has taught me a couple things:
1. Why walk when you can ride?
2. Never be the first or the last in ANY line!
3. Guns are a beautiful thing, and things are pretty cool when they go BOOM!!!

Thanks for the insight.

Please understand that it is very difficult for me to talk to you. Every time we talk it is like I go through D-Day all over again. My stomach sinks and I feel sick. I want to help you, but honestly what can I do now? It is a huge trigger for me.

I am glad that you intend to fight for your man. It is a fight that you will win if you decide. I hope that he will leave my family alone. I say hope because there isn't really much more that i can do. I mean, if he really wants to go to court and pay thousands of $$$ for a booty call then god bless. Good Luck with that one.

I don't know why but I just though of that line from Apocalypse Now, you know the one about Napalm.

NW,
I understand what you mean.

Good news..things are gradually getting better and I can tell this will be over soon. We are taking baby steps. He already changed his number and that was a big thing. He says he wants to prove to me anything I say.

He and I are always together now. When he's at work, he calls always. Invites me to come up for lunch daily. When he's off work we are together. Spending all of our nights together now.
He still denies everything about her. He only admits to her chasing him for at least the last 4 years by offering him (and coworkers) oral sex and money. Says he has no feelings for her and is certainly not in love with her.

I dont know why, but I believe him when he says he has no feelings for her. He would never be with her. His family would never accept them together as a couple. It would always have to be a dirty little secret. They would always have to be in hiding. His mother has made it clear that she would never accept her in her home.

What I dont get is why she would file for divorce not knowing what the future may hold, unless she is involved with more than just him. They aren't a couple are not out in the open and he denies her. She has never and will never meet his family, none of his coworkers,and if she has met any of his friends, it is this one guy who his brother grew up with. He is a shady character and would be the only one to accept this as he is a cheater himself. If she sticks with this, they will always have to meet on her turf. Only around her friends, never around anyone that knows him personally or that he deals with on a daily basis.

.

And as for court, he won't pay a dime, I guarantee it. He won't give up his hard earned money for a peice on the side. I bet she will end up being the one to pay the bill!

I wish you luck. You have been a great help to me through all this.

NW,
I wish you would have called me after you spoke with him that night. I would have made sure you knew what was really going on and would have let you known if he would have left.

Of course he was angry. He doesn't want his name mixed up with your WW. He is angry with you because you told his family. His family is now questioning his character and his family is everything to him. He is still trying to rebuild their full trust.

But those were just angry outburst. I would bet money he wouldn't even waste the gas to come way over there, unless she was reimbursing him for it.

NW, I don't know if continued contact with Confused is going to help your sitch much.

Confused, good luck to you.

Scotland,
Please tell why. Why are you acting as if I am the enemy? Like I have done something to condone this or I'm helping them keep this A alive or a secret?

Please give me some insight as to what you are actually thinking!!!

If I have something to tell you or advise YOU confused, I will tell you on your thread. This isn't the first time that I have advised NW to stop talking to you. It doesn't help HIM. The advice that would be given to you will be done so on your thread. I don't have anything to say to you ATM. Just trying to help NW where he is ATM.

Sorry about the t/j NW

BTW NW, GREAT quote from Limb given back to him. It was absolutely appropriate to the sitch he is currently in. BANG ON.

,

There is no doubt in my mind that my WW's A w/OM will die, I just don't know the timing. When their A is over there is no guarantee that my WW will want to recover our M, her $LB surely must be in the red. There is also no guarantee that I would want that either. Right now I am willing to give recovery a chance though.

Why? Because I still have hope and I know that NW5 is worth it for me to keep an open mind for R a while. I believe in these principals, people on this forum are living proof.

I know that R of our M is impossible as long as OM is in the picture. Once he is gone then our M might have a chance, the ball is in WW's court. I can't control her, I only hope that the IDEA of being happily married to the father of her child is better option than the opposite.

All I can do right now is live MY life with an eye towards a peaceful tomorrow.

I will post my response to this on YOUR thread.

Guess you don't have one anymore. Well, then I will post it on MINE. Would you care to read it?

Also, Green2red, AKA Confused2010, NW posted this on the previous page. I was helping with THIS.


Good luck to You and your family.