Hello,
I am new here and appreciate the insight you all provide! My story: married 23 1/2 yrs, 5 kids, 22(grad school, at home, 20 away at school, 15 homeschool, 6 1st grade, 5 pre-k) my husband has been a workaholic and mostly a friday night alcoholic our entire marriage. two days ago, he said, "i'm done".
a month ago, we had enrolled our 15yr old son in an all boys private high school, due to anxiety and depression, a meltdown occurred and son threatened to take his own life.(he had been seeing therapist and on meds prior). he spent 6 days in hospital. husband and i battled much of this time as he had found a new therapist for our son, our son had seen him ONCE and this new therapist was orchestrating some really strange things for him. i did not agree with the therapists hard-line approach and dh saw this as me taking "all the power" with our son. so my husband, who i belives suffer from depression and job burnout(he's a super stressed IT executive), accused me of pushing him out of our lives. whatever. i have been a stay at home mom most of it and my husband travled extenseively for 16yrs. of course i was doing the parenting. sorry, the post entry window skips and it is very uncomfortable to type.
we have been to therapy, i have been to therapy, we have been on marriage retreats. i am an extrovert, hubby an introvert. he's also narcisistic and willl literally walk by the kids and me without speakig to us.
1 1/2 years ago, i found on MY computer emails my hubby had written for 7 weeks to an old college friend(who I had long forgotten) he was confronted and of course I am NUTS to think it meant anything. he then changed his passwork. bottom line: i think there is someone at work? got a hold of his blackberry this morning while he showered around 5am, last person he talked to was L, at 5:35pm as he was driving home. we went away in august for a couple days(but took 15yr old with us at last minute since he was not doing too well) . i was on hubby's laptop. she i'm'ed him "You shouldn't be on here" i wrote back "hi. this is the wife". my hubby is on call 24/7 for his job but apparently she knew he was on a getaway with me. she is married with 3 boys. i just thought it odd at 10pm at night she was i'm'ing my husband(it's a work type I m network where you log-in to work and can see who else is logged in)
because of our great kids, of course i am scared to death about divorce. can't say i love my hubby but i have always had hope that things would be ok. i am a christian, he thinks he is.
when he said he was done, he said that things meant nothing to him and that he would never hurt us(i guess he means financially) i am an educated person but in my mid 40s with two young kids. i am sick over his selfishness. he did say that there is just too much baggage between us and i just keep dredging up the past(that is because he does nothing to change things). he apparently thinks seeking out other women with friendship, drinking excessively etc are ok.
after reading many of these posts, i wonder if i am supposed to be praying for us to stay together? or praying for this to end? i think the rejection hurts a great deal, even though he has rejected me most of our marriage. my older 3 kids loathe him, the two little ones like him.
i asked him this am as he dressed for work(i was only in our bed because i am terribly ill with a cold adn thought he had leftfor work and climbed in) i said, have you talked to an attorney yet? he said no. i said am i supposed to be contacting an attorney? a realtor? he said, i don't know.i haven't even talked to a dr yet(think he meant therapist) if he's leaving, i want closure. if not, i want changes. he keeps saying that he wants a friend and he is sooo lonely. heck, i could talk to a hole in the wall. ia m very transparent and also compassionate. why does he have to lie and twist things?
thanks for reading this far

mominpink, welcome to Marriage Builders. Sorry you are here.

Is your husband an alcoholic?

Regardless of the answer to that question, I would suggest a strategic, rather than a reactive approach to resolve the problem.

I would stop all fighting NOW and quietly start snooping on him. focus on being as attractive and pleasant as you can. Trying to name call and guilt him will only make this situation worse, not better.

I suspect he is having an affair, but I would not ask him, just quietly find out on your own. Can you hire a PI?

Once you get the goods on him, don't say a word to him. Just come back here and we will help you with next steps.

I would get the book Surviving an Affair as fast as you can and read it so our suggestions will make sense. They sell it in bookstores or you can buy it cheap here.

thank you for your welcome. i am a stressed mess, so i apologize for my scattered thoughts!
we have had words every day this week but "strange" things keep happening and i am convinced there is at least an EA with a woman he works with. tonite i facebooked her, he's 48(my hubby), she's 37, 3 kids, she works for my hubby. at 5am on wed, he was in basement working out(um, yeah,like for the 4th day in a row, sometimes twice a day), and i got on his blackberry upstairs. i am illiterate so i could not get into emails but hit the green phone and did see that he had/or called "L' at 5:36pm day before. He arrived home around 5:50 so I bet they talked while he drove. then next evening, he said, "did you get in my email last night at 1:06am?" I said, "no, i was sick on the couch with a fever all night" he said, "cuz someone messed with my emails and i'm afraid there's a security breach". i said, "i wish i knew how to mess up your emails" he hasn't set his phone down since. tonite, i was at a charity event with my grad-school daughter as part of her internship, my college son, his girlfriend home to visit said hubby put crown on 5yr old daughter's head(she had a gown on) took her pic with his blackberry then did something on his blackberry(assuming he texted her). i have a gut feeling about this. this "L" is the one who messaged him(me) while we were on getaway. he also told me two nights ago(which started a fight) that he can't believe we have so much "stuff" and it doesn't make him happy. i said, our house is well appointed and looks lovely and typical(we are in new house for 2 years and two main rooms are still empty! so i am not a hoarder by any means)then he said, " i went around taking pictures of our stuff." i thought for a second and thought , what the heck? then said, "oh to ticket the stuff for the attorneys" well, then he flipped out. so is his girlfriend inventory-ing MY stuff for after the split? "I want this, I want that?" when i spoke with the attorney that i am seeing next week, i told her this and she said she doesn't ask clients to take pictures of their stuff. so my husband's girlfriend wants my stuff? and he just keeps saying, "it's not the money, i will give you what you need..." is that cause girlfriend has money?
hubby keeps saying"I'm so lonely, i am so unhappy. i need a friend". then he keeps saying "i know there's a fundamental problem between us and i don't think it can be fixed" then i say, "okay there's your answer". i went to see a pastor on thurs and he agreed my hubby's a very selfish man.my husband is now picking fights with me when i try and discuss the relationship. i am seeing an attorney on tues.
also, he keeps saying that money is not the issue(i googled her and she lives in a big-azz hosue like i do) so maybe he's just planning on moving in with her and her 3 boys(she is married, her hubby is 38, her boys look 4 or 5, 8 and 10 or so) which is ironic because our boys are 6, 15 and 20 and hubby doesn't give them the time of day! he keeps saying we have too much "baggage" between us. i say "so you're going to go somewhere else and not have baggage?"
okay, if he's cheating, i know he WON'T leave his job to save our marriage, he won't so even though i don't think i can get thru this, really this marriage can't be saved right?
i am sick, sick, sick in my stomach and can't believe this is happening in my life. sorry for my weird words-i am just heartsick

melody,
my husband is a high level executive, we are new to this company(2 years) but i have had only 2 exposures to his co-workers, a holiday party and a company picnic. if i expose him to his co-workers, he will be fired, then i don't get it, i will still be single and broke? please advise.

Your best ally is this woman's husband. The sooner you do, the better. It may not make a difference -- I know a woman who didn't believe her husband's affair partner's husband when he called to tell her that her husband was having an affair with his wife -- but it is worth a shot. Look at all the kids in this mess -- how sad! Would you rather lose a son or have your husband lose his job? If exposure is made to the woman's husband, there may be some possibility that that is all the farther it would go.
Cherished

mominpink, Welcome to MB.

Have you read all of the info available to you on this site? Here is a thread I started to help guide people around this site. http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2370240#Post2370240

Click through all of the links and you will learn a lot.

As MelodyLane said, you need to get the goods on your WH and OW. Get the evidence you need and then expose this affair far and wide, all on the same day.

A lot of this site may seem counter-intuitive but it is your best chance. Ask any questions as you have them and we will be happy to help you.

You've got this bass-ackwards, mom. If you expose you'll have a shot at remaining married. If you don't, you will quite likely wind up single and broke.

You've already gotten solid advice. You just need to act on it. Snoop, confirm the A, expose the two adulterers. Exposure shines a very bright light of reality on the fantasy of an affair. Helping them hide it is not going to help your M.

Have you read the articles on this site, explaining how affairs begin, how they are constructed, and how to DEstruct them? Please do so, post-haste. You haven't got a lot of time to waste, here.

My H is a high-level employee in his company. Exposure ended his A that day. He is still employed. OW's husband personally went into her office with her and packed up her things. She quit. They moved out of state.

My H is thankful to this day that he was exposed. Because he said he wanted to stop it and didn't know how.

His OW and her H threatened to sue H's company for sexual harassment. You think his company liked hearing that one? If you don't expose, you'll have to hope that his affair ends when OW wants it to end, and that it ends cleanly and with no ill will. Because she, or any other employee in that company, can sue the company for harassment directly related to the affair.

Def stop the affair now. My ex H was the ceo of his company. It happens among these types imho.

I would go for the ow's H. Expose to him first.

Can you get a voice activated recorder and hide it in his car? I'd do that AND hire a pi. Fwiw, I found out all I needed to know and confirmed his ema with five hours or so with a private eye.

Being armed with knowledge arms YOU. Like hell I'd let some [censored] ow document MY FURNITURE and things. Your H sounds imho depressed. Truthfully, when the ws is torn, they DO become depressed, but don't feel sorry for him just yet.

Learn plan A and B and carrot and stick and GET THE PROOF. Then expose like wildfire. OW H first. Nuclear explosion with all the proof to him.

Fwiw also, I too thought my ex WH was going crazy. I did. I thought (when at the time the ema first began and didn't know he was having an ema) that he was simply under extreme stress from his company. I thought he was losing his mind b/c he acted like a depressed and angry person 24/7.

thank you all for your thoughtful replies. i think i began plan a today-went to pumpkin farm with our two youngest and college son and girlfriend, i said to ws, "wanna hold hands?" so we did for awhile. not comfortable though. later this evening, i was on phone with a close friend(talking about it) ws disappeared and went walking in neighborhood. i called his cell twice, no answer(of course wondering if he was talking to her), then drove around, found him, invited him to grocery store with me and to pick up carry out for our older kids. we had about 1 1/2 hrs together. i am being as pleasant as i can when the thought of vomiting is not overtaking me.
he is still hem-hawwing about his "feelings"(Which is funny (ironic) cuz he never had feelings before, but anyway, i am calling a private eye on monday-how do you figure out who is a "good" one? is there a specific licensing or something? that is my next move. thanks all. i hate this, i hate it but i want to do what i can.

So, last night hubby and i went for a salad after run to grocery store. had a really good talk about everything. he is revealing his feelings like never before. yesterday i received 3 emails from him talking about how much he loved me(but he always threw in that he didn't know if it would work going forward and thoughts like that). he has an appt with a therapist next week. he said he is finally understanding all of the hurt he has caused me in our marriage over the years(is this guilt talking?) and he feels empowered to go forward as a new and better person. my husband is a very introverted, quiet kind of dull pragmatist, i am the opposite of course . i am getting so many mixed signals. is this how this works? am i being duped?
i have appt with attorney this a.m. and i spoke with p.i. yesterday who works through the attorney. my husband has work computer and work blackberry and i have no access to them(password protected) and he guards blackberry with his life. p.i. said they can get text records-how would i confront hubby with evidence? then he would know that I hired someone?
i am sorry-all of this is killing me and my older children(ages 22,20) hubby walks around here like a wounded soul. i am sick and feels glimmers of hope when ws and i discuss things, but then i sink when i think about what he's doing to us. i don't know what to believe at all.
as soon as i resign myself to accepting the divorce, hubby send ME a carrot, so then i feel like i am crazy?
thoughts?....

I think he is attempting to cake-eat and keep both of you. Have you been making noises about divorce? His response is to do whatever it takes to make you happy while still keeping his OW on the side. He's getting his needs met by both of you and doesn't want that to end.

You've got to confirm this A, mom. You're pretty much powerless until you do so.

thank you maritalbliss-
gosh, i am so sick of being sick and upset! so i should call a p.i. how do i find a good one?

Do whatever you have to do to expose. If you can pay for a PI, hire a PI. Call the TV show cheaters. The link must be broken, and then every behavior and habit which led to the vulnerability to an A must be obliterated.

If you haven't got down to buy SAA - the basic skeletal concept of the book is contained in the infidelity portions of this site. FWW and I got our copy yesterday (ordered online through the site).

mominpink, sorry you are here.

Stay in Plan A till you vomit(where he can't see you). Don't talk relationship, marriage, or have expectations.

If some of the vets can find the reverse babble thread on how to answer him that is a good one.

PI - how long in business? Ask them what type of technology they use. GPS? Var? hidden cameras? Don't get those types that just follow them. Most times they give you a flat fee with no guarantee but usually they are able to uncover the A pretty quickly.

I know you said his blackberry is attached to him. If you can get it away from him for about 20 minutes you can get his call records on line.

Even though it is a work phone you can still register it. I "borrowed" xh phone. You need to have accesss to the phone when you register it because the cell phone company will send a Pin Number to the phone which I copied down and then deleted the message so he did not see it. I was able to see his cell/text history and that is when I confirmed it was his direct report.

Most attorneys will give your initial consultation free for one hour to find out what rights you have. Try to pick an attorney that maybe your H will use. If you go to him first then he cannot use him.

Blessings.

so, my husband and i just talked for 3 hours , after having dinner out with our kids. at one point, he had his blackberry, i said. "let me see it", he got kind of possessive and "funny" but I persisted, he scrolled down, showed me work emails, no real surprises, his texts,no surprises except a couple from her(or who i suspect) saying Lunch at 12:30?, and are you in your office? , rather benign, whatever, BUT i then asked to see his yahoo account and he scrolled past it, and i said, no no, let me see the yahoo account, and he got flustered and BEGAN SWEATING and said, let's just go into your computer, well he tried and tried to sign in but couldn't seem to remember the password, then he used his laptop and got it up-it was unable to go into his trash bin, but what was there in the inbox was benign. i still feel like wow, why was he sweating like that? ya know? i am screwing this whole plan thing up, huh? but he did tell me that he still wasn't sure whether or not he wanted to stay married, so really, whether there is someone or not, i may not be married in the end anyway.
i have spent the last two days in an awful way, this has been so difficult so lambast me if i ruined things, but i really don't understand the nice, long relationship talk(which is hard for my shy, more introverted husband) and the flip to "i am not sure what the future holds for us" one after the other?

MIP, the next time your husband starts sweating, PRESS HARDER! You were right on top of all the evidence you needed--why did you back off? He magically forgot his password?! Yah, I don't think so. He didn't want to get into the trash bin because he had already dumped the incriminating stuff in there once he realized that you were getting suspicious. Unfortunately, by now he has dumped the trash.

He is flipping around because he is now at the "farting and tapdancing" (to quote Kurt Vonnegut) stage of trying to juggle you and his OW and keep you both. He is leading you on with "we're still together" and threatening you with "I don't know for how long, especially if you keep trying to uncover my fun secret life."

Back off ON THE SURFACE and start spying in earnest. You want him to think that you are buying his story so that he gets careless again. There is a lot of good info in the threads about spying--time to get serious and go undercover! Don't blow any more opportunities to discover just what is going on.

mominpink, stop asking and start sleuthing. He will not be transparent till the OP is out of the picture.

Your actions are driving the A more into the dark and the only goal you are accomplishing is that it will make it harder for you to find the truth.

No you might not be married in the end, there are no guarantees but you can find out the truth and you decide if you want to save your M.

ok, i am meeting the pi on monday morning. ws and i talk incessantly about what he wants to be different. (i am still regarded at shrew who hurt him horribly) i have done my best to be quiet, to LISTEN, to take in what he is asking for. it has drained me beyond anything i knew possible. i have lost almost 20lbs in 3 weeks(which i needed but...)

ws and i went to dinner tonite-he is still "so hurt by me". i am relying on God and the love of others to get through this mess.

thank you for being here. i will update and ask for guidance.

ps i found a black leather button and receipt for apparently a 5:30am coffee rendesvous at mcdonald's . he has "no idea how receipt got there". buttom was apparently from a co-worker who borrowed his work vehicle for two weeks to move(plausible but not likelly since our kids have been in the back seat of his truck a few times).

I woke up at 4am, after a bad wolf/vampire dream?(and I don't read those books/see those movies) I was shaken and went downstairs and popped in a movie. Sat there bawling realizing that my husband is with someone else, in spirit, in his mind, in his heart. I don't think I want this guy. He mentioned a new Mexican restaurant for lunch(said six people went did not say who I did not press). He went to some other Mexican restaurant 10 days ago. Is changing his lunch patterns at work. I realize that he wants to see "her" more and more. I can't fight this one. I have five kids and I don't think I have it in me to do this. I also know that myhusband will NEVER leave his high-powered job for ME and will never fully disclose. He's not that guy. I also know that I now have Biblical grounds to end this marriage. So how do I wrap all of these feelings up and tell him to leave?
ps still going forward with pi on Monday.

Best to sit back and act calm. When the lights are turned off the roaches are easier to catch. Let the PI do his job.

Then before you make a move you can come back here first so the vet's can guide you through the exposure steps.

Mom,

I am sure more experienced vets will come along soon with some more helpful posts. In the meantime, here is my take on what you should be doing.

If you want your M, you will need to take action. You will not be able to talk your H our of his A and certainly he will not voluntarily disclose anything. Why would he?

Gather your evidence and expose to everyone. Have you found out who OW is and her role at work? Is she married?

Have you read the carrot and stick of plan A? Can you execute that plan? If you feel you have done a decent plan A, it may be time to get ready for plan B. I think you need your information about the A first.

I am sorry this is happening to you and your family. The majority of folks on this forum have been where you are. It is certainly the hardest thing I have ever had to deal with in life, complete with the weight loss, not sleeping, nightmares, etc.

AM

mom, you've been on here for 17 days. In those 17 days, what have you done to save your M?

thanks for your input everyone. well, for the last 17 days, i have spent every evening with my husband, watching tv, on a dinner date, talking, talking talking, going for walks, going to church together, leaving my younger two in the care of my oldest(when she's available), dressing nicely and made up every day, thanking husband for any help he gives, i think there is more, but i believe i am trying to meet his emotional needs?
it is that wall of disbelief and his generally callous attitude toward me(you hurt me so deeply, i deserve happiness, i am working on ME and my self-esteem) that is killing me as well as the thought of this other person.
i do believe i know who she is. she is married. i will be really surprised if it's not this woman, who is a direct report to my husband.
he did text me and tell me at dinner out last night that he would go to a marriage counselor. he did see a therapist last week, but gave him a laundry list of what a bad wife i am(i found it). he has a very dysfunctional upbringing, along with other issues and is putting all of his pain in MY basket. it is so unfair. i am seeing a therapist next wed.
thank you to all for your input. i am trying my best to follow the plan. i wish i was a non-emotional type, would be much much easier

You sound like you are doing good at trying to meet his emotional needs. Yes, he will not seem to appreciate them, but on a deep level, unshown to you....he does. It is good.
Your own needs will not be met much during this phase of the situation.
Try to get him to agree to talking with a MarriageBuilder coach versus a traditional Marriage Counselor. Insurance doesn't cover it, but they will not allow him to blameshift and get distracted from the state of the marriage. They are amazing at talking with waywards and betrayed to define things for each. Money well spent.
Maybe you can convey to your H that calling in to a Marriage Builder coach is in his best interest for future happiness. For getting going on what is best for him.That traditional councelors spend a lot of time and therefore money on things that don't get anywhere anytime fast.

Well, the sh*t hit the fan today and WS moved out tonite....
We went to church together today. I lB'ed there. Then I decided I needed to get away and took my four kids to eat and a corn maze. On the way home my 22yr old daughter kind of reprimanded my younger daughter 5yr old in the car, I told my older dd subtly that she had better watch how she behaves with the younger two(my husband and she have had a volatile emotional relationship). She started ranting and crying saying "I can't stand living this fake life anymore" and other things. I pulled off the road and said, "dd, you cannot do tihs. I have to think of the future custody of these young ones. If you can't handle this stress then maybe you should go somehwere else(we are new to our area and know noone, no family, so that would be a real hardship). then my teenager son started saying, i hate this, i hate him, i wish he was dead(the one who struggles with depression and was hospitalized till sept 10-hubby dropped bomb on me oct 6, how sensitive of him)
so anyway, i dropped wee ones off at a friends, son went to see girlfriend for a little, hubby went to get a salad, my dd took me to restaurant, hubby was in car, we talked. i asked hiim to stay away for one night as the older kids were really upset and i did not want to see an altercation occur between him and our son. then our dd got into hubby's truck, i drove home to get little one's pj.s
so, hubby comes home with daughter, walks by me, starts packing, grabs two pairs of pants, i said "can we talk?" he said, "why bother, what else is there to say?" I say, you will be back tomorrow. he said, "I don't know". i stood there for a bit, then he says coldly, "there, you got what you want, i am outta here. you win". i said, 'no i didn't win anything. all i wanted is a healthy, loving family with you." then i basically left. he said before i walked out he'd be back for the rest of his stuff. (we don't have the money for endless hotel stay-i gave him money from my dd's stash)
so, then later kids and i go to get a bite to eat. i am calm. he texts me that i am ruining the relationship he has with his kids, that i am getting in the middle blah blah
then he sends me an email with "incidents" listed of this "Plan" of mine to kick him out today. um, isn't he the one who keeps saying daily " i don't think i want to be married to you. if you make me decided today, i want a divorce. " okay
his email has UNTRUTHS in it("you told me two of my kids hate me and the other one wants to hurt me"(these are the older 3 not the two little ones)
so, has he gone off his rocker or what? do i respond to his email?
my husband is NOT father of the year. he's been a workaholic who has watched me do the vast majority of the parenting. he also is talking about our older kids and two of them are grown, so there's no custody issue there.
i would talk to him tomorrow if he wanted, doesn't he realize that "now i am sitting in a hotel in stead of at home with my family" is EXACTLY what he keeps saying he wants? i don't understand.
thanks for reading. i am as calm as i have been. he hasn't been a great hubby so maybe my feelings are starting to change. if he had been wonderful, would be worth fighting for. now, i just don't know. the emotional cruelty i am taking in plan a may not be worth it for me

He also told me that he WOULD go to marriage counseling(this was in our post-church discussion at home) but only for a "very short time". I said, "like one visit". he said, "yes". I said, "why bother?"

mom, do not let him talk you into going to MC. What he's doing is laying the foundation: "Oh, I tried to save my M. I went to marriage counselling and it just didn't work."

Again, when he brings it up, thank him and tell him you're looking into finding a good counsellor. If he finds one, make sure your schedule doesn't work with his for making an appt.

Your WH's behavior is very typical. He's the bad guy and he knows it, so he's casting about, looking for ways to make YOU the bad guy. He'll lie and believe it right now. It's what waywards do.

He's in a hotel, right? Then you can pretty much bet the OW is married. Make sure the PI knows that.

Why do you feel you need to go to counselling on Wed?

Only you can decide what you want to do, mom. If you want to keep your M you're going to have to suit up, here. It's going to require some work and steely determination. It's not for wussies, for sure. If you feel you need to toss in the towel, okay. But I would certainly consider your kids' long-term lives as well. You're okay with sending them to your WH and his girlfriend's house for split holidays and summer vacation? Calling him to argue because the child support isn't enough to make ends meet? Sitting in different parts of the auditorium at graduation and making them decide who to take pictures with first? Is this what you want for them?

thank you maritalbliss for your insight and honesty,
he emailed me this morning(after i finally emailed him last night-i responded to a disparaging email he sent me telling me that i was DESTROYING his relationship with his children) so i wrote back that i am not a human punching bag and i have tried to show him my commitment the last two weeks, but to no avaiol.
i said that i loved him and that i had hope for our marriage.
so this a.m. he emails me saying he wants to see the two older kids alone this evening(he did tell dd several times last night during their talk that he has been FAITHFUL to me in our marriage, she said it was overkill).
he also mentioned counseling again. and no, i don't want to share my children, especially the younger two angels. but i am a more emotional person than many of you and don't know if i can pull this off. i also strongly believe in my heart my husband would NEVER leave this high powered job for our marriage , or move away. he just would not. he also has never been transparent, so why would he start after all of this? i don't think i can ever trust him again?
so when he comes this evening, do i ask him to stay here? i assume he went to hotel but i truly have no idea, and yes the OW i am thinking it is is married.
thank you-i actually feel very calm. why shouldn't i go to counseling on wed?

he also said in his morning email that if i think i am a "human punching bag-please explain. i haven't raised my voice once to you during this", then may be we should not speak at all

he just sent me this email,

A couple of other things

1) You asked me for one night of peace..I don't understand, can you explain what you mean by that. There has been no yelling at all in the house unless its been you yelling. the conversations we have had have been mostly 1x1 in our bed room where no one can hear us. So when you ask for a night of peace what are you asking for specifically?

2) You tell me the older kids are all suffering of the idea of their parents not being married. Frankly this isn't their business, not at this point, you are the one dragging them thru this. They don't need to be and they shouldn't be in the middle of this...I haven't been to a lawyer, I haven't filed papers and haven't done anything but talk to you and to my Dr. . If you want to know who is hurting the kids right now you might want to take a good look in the mirror and ask yourself why your doing it.

3) I have finally taken a stand of the years of abuse I have taken...and I am not going to take any more of the guilt bombs, the constant accusations, constant attacks on my integrity and character undermining my relationships with my children and the complete destruction of my self esteem. Your upset because I have finally had enough and I am fianlly setting some boundries..we are either going to have a great marriage or we are done...the abusive mess we called a marriage is over...I am not going to take it any more. So far you have said alot of the right things, however your actions send a completely different message. I get that this isn't easy but I also know I am very hurt and I don't trust you right now and everything you do to hurt me just pushes me further and further away. Turning my kids agaisnt me and kicking me out of the house last night was a very big deal and it hurt me way more than you will ever know.

so tell me specifically what do i say to this? by the way, i rarely hear this much from my husband while he's at work!

I have been in therapy before, but yes, WS has been convincing me that this is all my fault(his unhappiness, his low self-esteem).

thanks for your candor. apparently my skin is going to get much thicker through this process

meeting with pi at 9am....

thanks for being here.

This is all pretty much hogwash. The question you should ask him is "Do you think your affair has anything to do with any of this? Do you believe your affair is not causing any of these problems?"

Do not allow your WH to bully you into believing his A is your fault. I would suggest that you not attend counselling, for a few reasons. First, it will bolster your WH's claim that you are in some way to blame for the A. The fact that you choose to attend counselling will send the message that you agree there is something wrong with you. That is not true. You may have contributed to the conditions that weakened your M, but your WH made a conscious decision to have an A. He could have just as easily made a conscious decision to work on his M, and he chose not to do that. His A is all about his choices, not yours.

This is called blame-shifting. Again, your WH chose to have an A.

Interesting side story: When my FWH was starting his A with the office secretary, he took her to lunch. She spent a lot of that lunch trashing her H and her M. My H told her that our M was "a pretty good marriage." That was in September.

By January, her BH was really putting the pressure on both of them to end the A, but he was doing it anonymously, and OW was suggesting that I was the one sending threatening emails to them. My H responded in a note "MaritalBliss knows nothing about what's going on. If she did, it would be over - it being our marriage, which is basically over anyway."

Funny, how we went from having a 'pretty good marriage' in September, to having a marriage that was 'basically over' in January. The only difference in our marriage during those months was that my H chose to have an adulterous affair.

Quiet, soul-killing comments and actions are worse than any loud voices.

latest email: read lower one first

would appreciate it if you left me relationship with my children to me. The question on coming home needs to be asked to you not me...I left at your urging not mine...do not try to spin this any other way.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hubby,
I hope that you plan on returning home tonight. I did not want you and son to get into it. He is still in recovery from his own crisis, even though he looks good, talks a mean game.
See you later.
How should I respond? funny how he is "spinning" the spin. isn't he the one who told me HE wanted to end our marriage?
also, am i supposed to confront the a as if i am sure it exists?(even though he denies it?) or wait till i get the information?
Met with pi, got things in motion...feel good about that. I am getting much calmer. thank you. i appreciate your responses very much!

I am completely devastated and menatally exhausted, what happened yesterday and last night really really hurt me more than I can ever put into words, I feel like my heart has been completly ripped out of my chest...

he also wrote this in email(other short one before above one) I thought he got what he wanted, a night away from wicked shrew, me? maybe i am getting the hang of this

mom, take a deep breath and try to relax. You WH is trying to wrap your mind up to where you don't know if you're coming or going. So let's put things in order, okay?

First, tell us about your meeting with the PI.

Next. No, don't say anything to your WH about an A. Let your PI come up with irrefutable evidence before you say anything. And let us know what the PI finds before you confront WH.

Finally, remember that your WH is going to be saying and doing a lot of things that may be completely out of character for him. You may feel at times like you're in the twilight zone. My H once confounded me by saying, out of the blue, that I was harming the ozone layer by using hair spray. WTH?? This guy never had a thought about the environment before that one came out of his mouth! It was just my H being wayward and trying to find fault with me. It's what they do.

I guess I must have been doing okay if all he could find to complain about was that I was using hair spray, LOL! (and even that one didn't fly because my hair spray didn't contain CFCs

You are doing fine.

Your WH is having tantrums right and left cause he is not able to continue his fantasy unabated by reality. Your actions and calmness are also messing with his solution to whatever led him into the affair.

Stay calm no matter what you face. No matter what you face....even if your Taker (a MB term for ego) gets riled up for a fight. Calm. It is in your best interest. In the best interest of your family and even if it doesn't appear to have effect now, your marriage.

Keep focused on laying good groundwork and having info to know what you are dealing with and the players involved. Once you know that...keep it close to your vest to do the best onward work and do not let your emotional ego blow all your intelligence as it will want to do.

By the way, all people are emotional to the max, some just have less skill at being still and riding the waves. It is a skill you either learn as a toddler or as an adult. Being human IS having emotion.

latest email(i've gotten 6 today from huber busy and important executive husband) asking me for the credit cards we have open and the balance. he does not participate in the bill paying at all and hasn't for years, although when we have debt(and we do now) it's always my fault. so does this mean he wants to control the money so he can have money for his hunny? ugh, i am starting to lose the resolve i had earlier today.
the pi went well. i liked her, now i have to scrounge up $ to get what i need. i gave her retainer but she said it usually takes about 3 weeks...
thanks for your input. i hope he doesn't come home tonite and carry on

I would stop responding to his emails. Sounds like he's trying to create drama, and that's an energy drain.
I would like to think your PI can come up with intel much sooner than 3 weeks. When did she say she's going to get started? I would suggest finding another PI if this one can't 'work you in'.

Yep. It sure is funny, how they can be just soooo busy and important that they don't have time to meet their spouse for lunch, and yet they do have time to shoot out tons of self-serving emails (and, need I add, time to have an affair.) Yep, that one sure does make me ponder...

pi said she'd start on wed or thurs....i thought that was ok? non?
WS called me at 12:26pm on my cell. i had just plugged it into charger and erased everything. i said "hello". he said, "you called me?" i said, 'Um, no, but how are you?" then he told me he was going to drive from downtown to the chiropractor here and then back into town for a meeting(about 25 or miles, traffic wouldn't be bad but it's highway) i said, 'um ok". i said, "are you coming home tonite?" he said, " i want to talk to the kids(older two)" i said, 'ok, are you going to stay?" he said, "do you want me to?" i said, "of course" then i told him that i appreciate him not yelling or raising his voice but some of the things he has said have been cruel and very hurtful. he said, "if we're going to have a good marriage, we have to be honest" hahahahaha. even I can laugh at this one . hugs to you miss maritalbliss.
this is keeping me afloat in a surreal way

Hang in there, mom. We'll help you.

so I am sitting with WS last night watching tv(one of his emotional needs) and it's going ok. He talked about a project at work, then kind of blurts out "OW is going to China for a couple of weeks". I said, "Oh" and meanwhile thinking "Oh cr@p!" cuz the PI is supposed to start this week. He said she is going this weekend. I said,"How can someone go when they have kids?" he said they just expect you to go. He also said HE was supposed to go but that was cancelled awhile ago. I texted PI and she wondered if he's just trying to throw me off track.
But my report is that I did not commit one LB last night-no relationship talk, no tears, NOTHING! Now, of course up super early today with stomach pain, not so good...

Good job, holding off the LB's! Question: you think your H has an important EN to watch TV? Because that's a form of parallel play, KWIM? You're not really engaged with each other when you're watching TV. Watching TV is pretty much a solitary activity. Or do you watch it and discuss it throughout? I'm confused...

well i asked him questions about football, small talk, but he is generally very quiet. he goes walking but takes off without me(on purpose) he seems to be isolating himself more. am i supposed to bring up our relationship or not?

Here was his morning email to me: becaause he sat down with the older two, ages 22 and 15)
It was pretty much a uni-directional conversation (Ie me talking to them) but I wanted to share with you a couple of things that I told them so we are on the same page with the messaging to our children:

1) I love them very much and no matter what happens that isn't going to change

2) I told them you love them very much and that we both want whats best for each of them and that neither one of us would do anything to hurt them

3) That Mom and I are working thru some very difficult things most of which date back to things that happened way before we were married. I told them this isn't easy but we are working on it and this isn't something you fix in a couple of days

4) This isn't about them or anything they did. I also told them that its OK to be upset.

5) They should not be in the middle of this or really even know its going on. The fact that they do bothers me greatly. This is between me and your Mom and somethings we need to work out. I apologized several times for their involvement and for being hurt

6) I told them I would not talk about the details because if I do I may say things that might paint their their Mom in a negative light and I am not going to do that.

7) I told them I would answer any questions they had at any time, no yelling just the truth

8) I told then that they had a very good Mom and that she deserves to be happy

9) In an absolute worse case scenario all that would happen is we all wouldn't all live in the same house, we aren't there but that is the worst thing that could happen out of this. We would still be a familly, they would still see me as much as they would like and I would still take care of them, I would still buy them things and most importantlyI would still love them.

10) I told them that there will be changes that need to come out of this mostly on how your Mom and relate to each other, change is hard on everyone buts its long overdue and it really needs to happen if we are all going to be happy as a couple and a family.


You dont need to respond, but I would ask if you tell them something different that you tell me about it so I have some idea of whats going on with our children.

I will talk to other son this weekend.

I don't understand, maritalbliss, how we can WORK on the relationship at all when
A: he's having an A
B: he hasn't "forgiven" me for all of my transgressions in the marriage
C: he keeps saying that he doesn't think he wants to be married to me

What is the straw holding this together? i am very weary today and he doesn't notice me, doesn't seek me out, etc etc. I don't want to harass and chase, and aggravate him. Then he sends me emails all day...

mom,
Your husband is in the middle of his affair and is only thinking about that, you right now are the bad guy, you have to get evidence and then expose the affair to everyone, including your children......
Then ask him for No Contact with the OW, if he is not willing then you have to go into Plan A while he is still there and when he moves if that is his choice Plan B is the next step..
Remember at this stage, you stay calm, have a plan and whatever you do, don't believe a word he says.......it's like they are possessed by an alien.......don't expect anything, this is the time in your marriage where you need to be the tougher one.....
Remember one thing, the one thing the OW forgot about was how smart you are and that she shouldn't underestimate you...........You have more power than you think, a life, a history, a family with him, if he sees you in a better light and you always look good, smell good, fill his needs...........she is just fantasy, you are life........remember that, don't get hung up on the now, keep an eye on the big picture and plan......
you are in a good place with lots of vets to help you through every step
(((hugs))))

you are precious and thank you! feeling it today as i ran errands and finally bought SAA....
he keeps emailing me with this and that which is funny since he doesn't talk when he's at home.

i will return as needed(which may be in 5 minutes!) and the support i receive here is beyond. i am grateful

so hubby just texted me very urgently. asking if i have marital counseling appt set up yet. i put him off saying i called therapist and am waiting for a callback. he said ok thanks but he did say "we are getting nowhere fast" so it seems he is desperate to get on with it, so why am i bothering? and faking all of this? someone please tell me?
my husband is a very strong, intimidating individual. he is greatlly wearing my own self-esteem down through this process of ignoring me, of telling me how i suck, of telling me he wants out.
my husband fits no mold and after years of marriage books, etc, he is the ONE person who doesn't do what they say "when/if you do this, they will do that" he doesn't fit into that logic.
help!

Grrr....if your WH was in front of me I would slap him! How dare he manipulate and confuse your children like this!

Let's go at this a piece at a time:

When a guy watches football, he watches football. This is not UA time. And your WH doesn't want UA time right now anyway.

As far as what he said to the kids:

Mean. He's out of the gate and already flagging them that something is going to 'happen'.

This is a lie. Yep, you're sure working on something difficult - your WH's affair. It is a lie that you're working on things that date back before you married. He's setting himself up as a good guy.

This directly affects them. They aren't suddenly 'not' a part of the family with no business knowing family matters.

Ouch! Where's my 2X4!? He is alluding to them that your 'issues' are YOUR fault.

Uh-huh. I wonder what he would say if they asked him if there was another woman.

Reverse psychology. This is to get them to buy that bit about his not wanting to put you in a 'negative' light. Yep, throw out a little compliment about Mom after you've thrown her under the bus. Then they'll think you're sincere.

Another set-up. He's preparing them for his trip to Fantasy Island.


You are dealing with a foggy wayward. Don't try to logic him out - it'll just make you crazy.

He is getting certain needs met by you when he emails. I would be inclined to disregard them and not respond. Your call, though.

My husband was like that in the beginning as well, when I found out about the affair and it was all in the open he kept saying it is how he feels now and he can't just pull a switch and change things, but he constantly talked to me about what happened and how it was all my fault......I said fine if that is what he wanted out of life then go be happy......
The whole time Mom I was looking good, smelling good, being reasonable, understanding his emotional side of things.......I was telling him that this was only his decision and that I still loved him and wanted to make our lives together be great again......
When I spoke to him I looked right into his eyes, I would brush against him by mistake of course, hehe!!! and I would ask for a hug to get over the emotional turmoil I was feeling, he did, at first didn't respond, but after a while he was hugging back, it's just a way of connecting with someone again.....
My point is my husband was gone in every way and you can slowly reconnect with him and the fantasy OW will soon not look like the better option........
This is a tough road but I think you are strong enough to fight for what is yours....in no way was I going to let something that only last a few weeks ruin what we had in 27 years.......there is a great balance you have to achieve here, you have to make him fall in love with you all over, you have to be understanding, you have to be loving and you have to be accountable for your actions........all the while be respectful of yourself and your boundaries.....he will see a loving, strong woman that might be just to hard to give up for some chance at a happy life, he might just realize he has that already in you......
I know it's hard to think like this but feeling sorry for yourself and just standing back letting things progress is just a single life waiting to happen.......
I suggest all these things as well as following the advice and steps of recovering your marriage by the vets on this site.......there are steps that are important to do with the right timing.....good luck........stay smart

ok, i will not respond to emails or texts

and ladies, i appreciate your thoughtful contributions.

i will homeschool my teen, shower, get gorgeous for his evening return, try and see if he wants/we can spend time alone(i have a 5 and 6yr old so they DO take up evening time till bed) WS goes to bed early, remember? cuz he gets up at 4 or 5 to go and meet his honey before work...

onward...:)

I unfortunately was in a similar situation as you but confronted my hubbie with "proof" and after 2 days he spilled all the details of the affair - I kicked him out and he spent two weeks with the ow and I sent an email saying is this is or are we going to save this marriage - he left her and we went to marriage counseling - I give the counselor a lot of the credit - my hubbie had a lot to say that never was said and it cleared a path to recovery - at the same time my friends and relatives that knew what was going on were quite concerned with my emotional state - make sure you are taking care of yourself - sleep and food!

thank you goldengirl,
i am spent but my faith is holding me up. the weight loss is shocking as i have tried to lose weight for 4 yrs with little success. i am looking hotter but WS doesn't seem to notice..maybe I will try the braless approach?
thank you for your input. talked to pi. she tried to familiarize herself with our neighborhood and his place of work(it's a huge one) and videotaped someone but sounds like it wasn't him? i dunno.
your presence here is helping me get through

WS and I went for a walk. I was asked and revealed our debt. We have since had a very long talk. He shared himself and talked about each of our brokenness in relationship to who we have been in our marriage, upbringing etc. He said he has to work on HIM first before he can work on US and I should be likewise working on me.
so it all was (I thought) revealing and honest. He did say this is absolutely NOT about another woman.??? I said it sure looks like it is.
Then he said that both therapists(apparently he saw 1 last week, which I knew about and 2nd one in same practice today) think he may "need some time alone". I said what does that mean? he said you're reading way into it. there you go(all the while in a very calm voice) I said I don't know what Christian therapist would tell a man with five kids to move out on his family.
as for the bills, WS has not been responsible for our money ever. he did initially as newlywed but left me do that. we have always been slightly housepoor as we buy houses that we "grow into" financially. now he says he wants control of the bills, etc. i am not opposed but my gut is telling me he wants $ for something else. i asked him if that is why he inquired about the bills, to see if he could afford to live elsewhere. he got a defensive posture and said, 'now now, don't go there" or that more or less.
am i a fool? being duped? what is up with this guy? it was a very deep discussion. he shows little compassion for my tears. i did tell him how lucky it is for him to have this "me time" to self-actualize amidst the kids, their needs , etc. he says he must do this for himself. ugh
thoughts?

Let him know that you think it's wonderful that he is interested in being involved with the household finances. And that, henceforth, you will being working on them. Together.

The counselors are full of it. It is dangerous to work on issues apart. Couples work on them together. It's actually pretty worthless (as we've mentioned before) to attend counselling when at least one of the spouses are in an actual affair. Unless you're working with the Harleys. Have you considered that? They don't do the warm & fuzzy "contemplate your naval" type counselling. They save marriages. Big difference.

there you are . yes i have contemplated it, but WS says this is his time to work on him and i know he would not consider it, considering he just told me that this is NOT about another woman. i know i am being emotionally lambasted and it hurts like h*ll.
i did tell him thank you for leading(that is one of our core marital issues, he got busy being a workaholic early on and left me with the kids, bills, and all decisions). so now i guess he had some emotional awakening and he's suddenly "aware" of how much i have emasculated him. honestly, i don't remember being a nag, et. i learned to keep my mouth shut, do my job, but he keeps reminding me of what a shrew i've been.
this is so hard-he keeps saying that he wants this stellar, emotional marriage, but perhaps not with me. it's like a kick in the teeth over and over. the 'ole "we'll see how this goes" speech.
i am left wondering and confused tonight. but peace that now he can stress over the $. little funny: my WS is super generous and said that there will be NO CHRISTMAS this year, except the two youngest will get a small gift. so unlikely!

Who have you told about his affair?

Well, okey-dokey, then. Let him take over the finances (it'll be a nice breather for you to not have to deal with paying the bills on time, etc.

But you've got to make sure you're set up to 'look over his shoulder' while he's doing this, and without his knowledge. You need to keep an eye on where the money goes.

Do you have joint checking and savings? Joint credit cards? Make sure you can access your account info online. Don't let him know you're doing this. He may make a misstep and leave a paper trail. (Florists, dinner out without you, hotels, etc.)

MIP, why are you participating in your WH's mind games? He is rewriting history like mad so he will come out of this situation smelling like a rose and you will look like the Wicked Witch of the West who cut his roundies off and oh, look, miraculously he will find the love of his life JUST after you guys get divorced.

Exposure of the fact that he is having an affair NOW prevents him from being able to play that. Concentrate on getting something solid that proves he is having an affair and then let everyone know about it. Quit getting into these convos where he is just jerking you around to keep you off balance. Get centered, get your intel and EXPOSE!

Also, if you hand over control of the finances right now, he will gut them like a fish. WS are notorious for using family finances to pay for trips to Vegas with their new honeys. Or maybe a ticket to CHINA?

He does not have your family's best interests in mind right now. You have to get control of the situation or he will spend every credit card to its limit to go "bond" with his OW, then dump you and the kids in a divorce that he blames on you and your "nagging".

i don't know what to say. i gave him the checkbook this a.m. he said i am sorry for this mess. do i call the pi and ask her to start right now?
i am feeling very confused and upset. thank you for your thoughts.

You do need to watch this, mom. That's why I said you should keep a tight eye on the finances. Check online every day - a few times a day.

My concern is that he is addressing his financial sitch to see where he can come up with the scratch to get a place of his own. If that's the case, he's going to suddenly pull out enough for a security deposit and the first/last month's rent. That's a chunk of change. And you won't know it until after the fact. You need to be ready to wipe out the rest of the money if you see that happen.

You won't avoid this by refusing to hand over the financial reins, so I wouldn't bother getting into a tug of war over who's paying the bills. I would normally suggest that the BS wipe out most of the money and put it in a new account that is safe from the WS's hands. I don't think you're in a position to do that yet.

Anything from your PI?

Yes, this is a terribly stressful time for you and you are getting a lot thrown at you by your husband--and us, as well!

I think a lot of betrayed spouses have trouble adjusting to the fact that their wayward spouses have actually moved into the "enemy" position. It's a shock to find that your friend and lover is now working against you. But until you make that adjustment, you're are always going to be coming from behind. Does that make sense?

Yes, get the PI right on it, look for emails, phone numbers anything that you can use as reasonable proof that there is an affair, because your WH is actively working to make it look like he is not adulterous and everything is all your fault.

The money thing--protect yourself and your kids. Limit any damage he can do and don't underestimate the damage he may do. Hang in there, MIP, we're behind youu!

thank you all. problem is work computer(laptop-password protected0 and work blackberry(also password protected) since i have accused him, he now erases his texts etc.

yes, i understand and yes, i am devastated. in the end of all of this, if he leaves(and i think he will) i want my kids. that is the crux of this. i know his threats are empty and false-but hearing it makes me sick to my stomach. he has erratic hours, works tons, has lots of stress and is a hands-off dad, so i KNOW in my heart the kids are with me, but it still makes me ill thinking...

thanks for support and compassion. i NEVER knew this was so awful. worst thing i have ever lived through, i think it's the ongoing-ness of it, ya know? it seems to never end(and i am probably in the beginning of it at 23 days

Your PI needs to start on this yesterday.

Mom, please tell me you have access to all of your banking records. Can you check accounts online?

yes, i can. we have a joint checking but there is one he has and one i have without each other on it...i don't think he online banks at all.

the pi did an initial run to our home and to his office already. she had told me surveillance thurs or fri and since WS's hunny is supposedly going to China this weekend for work, pi suggested they may want to say good-bye?

If he does not online bank, then how are you going to check the balances? He will start blowing all the money on the OW.

I would get control of the finances again....do not trust him. Or all your money will be gone gone gone!

Please talk to an attorney now about how to handle finances. You have just turned over your family financial future to your wayward H who has never before shown an interest in handling them.

This is too coincidental. He's doing it now (wanting to handle finances) for reason. Probably planning to move funds or try to put money where you can't get it. I think you handed it over because you were trying to please him thinking it would get him back. I think this is a bad mistake and he may already have moved funds....all he has to do is write a check off joint funds and put it somewhere you can't find it.

You are acting like you can trust him still, that he has your interests in mind, when in fact, he's the man who recently told you "he's done...wants out of the marriage". THAT IS THE MAN YOU'RE DEALING WITH NOW....THE ONE WHO WANTS OUT.

You need legal advice NOW.

Set up online banking for your joint accounts if you haven't done so already.

Whether or not he's paying the bills wouldn't matter if he wanted to write a check and wipe their account out, so it really doesn't matter who's paying the bills. All it takes is one swipe of the debit card.

I suspect he is assessing the situation to see where he can pull enough money to move out on, but still leave enough so his kids don't get screwed.

mom, I'll mention again, set up an online access to your accounts. Be ready to move money.

mom,

Please move money now - if something happens you will need a decent retainer for an attorney and to pay bills - the last thing you need to stress about is $$

I think it is too soon to do this, and it may well backfire on mom. Your call though, mom. My gut tells me he isn't going to leave this family destitute.

My experience tells me the courts would kick his [censored] if he did.

Mom, do you have printouts of past financial statements? Put them in a safe place.

I don't think you can count on the courts to "kick his [censored]" fast enough to prevent lots of problems. Look how many people here on this forum have had the courts move very slowly even when the Wayward spouse was withholding court ordered support. Some courts have given continuance after continuance while the custodial parent and children scrounge for money to keep a roof over their heads. I think the best solution is never get in the situation of losing control of a large part of the family finances.

He's said he's done. No matter how bad you want to save the marriage, you don't hand over everything to the one who says he's walking out the door.

ok, he forgt his blackberry. found it on bed. was open!!!!!! found emails/texts with secratary requesting direct deposit change. pi said take pics. also she said get as big a cash advance on your credit cards as you can. good advice? sorry my hnads are shaking really bad.

i wonder if he could be coming here and reading? i have no idea but he does update my computer on the weekend....ugh i am sick

GO SEE AN ATTORNEY TODAY!

MAKE COPIES OF ALL FINANCIAL RECORDS!

WITHDRAW AS MUCH CASH AS POSSIBLE AND OPEN A NEW INDIVIDUAL BANK ACCOUNT AT A NEW BANK!

KEEP A WRITTEN LOG OF EVERYTHING GOING ON AND EACH STEP HE TAKES AND YOU TAKE!

Do not rely on guilt of a ww and the court system
Get to the bank TODAY

Clean out your accounts. Right now. As quickly as you can. Close any open credit card accounts that you can.

I would say yes. Are the credit cards in both of your names? Can you max them out with a cash advance?

mom, what else did you find on his phone?

your are living my life three years ago last month - your hubbie is not thinking straight - I also paid all the bills etc and all of a sudden an interest in banking - he didnt even have a check book or the online pw - protect yourself - I am sorry to say
this confirms something is going on with this woman - dont worry about upsetting him - he is an alien right now I assume you have read about that on ths site by now.

I have a busy day hope someone can counsel you as needed today!

thank you all. ws came home at 9am, our 5yr old was in the middle of vomiting and i was rushing around with wet hair to go to a dr's appt(long awaited for a bad shoulder) i said what are you doing here? he said i am here to work on the finances. i said can you watch kids while i go to the dr(normally i would NEVER leave a sick child but since ws is leaving i have to take advantage of my healthcare while i have it) so ws casually said have you seen my phone? i said i haven't seen it. he has since found it(hee hee) and now he's laying on our bed with little dd working on spread sheets to figure out where the money goes...have at it. it'll keep him busy for awhile!
i believe since his OW is leaving for china this weekend(if she hasn't already) he is "relaxing" up a bit. last night, he said to me as we sat discussing finances(again), you know i could take you in my arms right now and hold you, but well, gee, i don't know if i want to be with you or not. gag me . see i'm smiling
i shook all morning. frankly, nurse at dr's office calmed me down a bit. came home with some renewed strength and resolve. i did make copies of our tax returns(have one year left to do) hid paperwork, copied pic of his checking acct etc...
i see an atty tomorrow(thank goodness it's scheduled!). he is going to pester me to cancel these cards but i am going to put him off.
thanks to all-i feel like this is a nightmare that NO ONE should live through! i am going to be thin and gorgeous by the end of it though, 22lbs down in less than a month. i can't say that part of this "feels" good but i am not looking like a maternal, bloated alien anymore.
(((hugs))) to you for sharing yourselves with me at this critical time in my life

maritalbliss,
he also had a couple of texts to his secretary saying "this sucks. thanks for all of your support and help in this"????? and another one to her saying"can you come in here? i don't know if this is working or not, i think it is..." don't know what that one was about..
interestingly enough the OW's texts and emails are virtually nonexistent hmmmmmm

i have credit cards in my name and one in both-i have really good credit have probably 20 grand cash available to me if i wanted it...cabo anyone?

just walked into bedroom. he had his yahoo acct up quickly took it down. there was an unfamiliar name with things like fw.:credit report probably a few(5 or so).
i said show me what's in your trash he did nothing..

i said i don't like the feeilng that you are out to get me. we have five beautiful children and i have given you my life and devotion. he laughed and said i'm not out to get you. i am just trying to get a handle on these finances and how to fix it and to create a budget. he said laughingly you're somethin else
YES I AM and I AM GOING TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF ALL OF THIS!!!(didn't say it but was thinking it)

Where is my bathing suit...I know it's in this drawer...

Thats funny - I moved exactly 20k to a 60 day CD in my name
My first impulse was to take the 70 in our jointsavings and buy a lexus in my name with cash - but we all know the minute you drive it off the lot it depreciates!

The yahoo reaction is of concern - remember the ww can go dark to with ow to cover their but - may have already consulted himself re how to proceed

Bumping for you, mom. What's going on? Are you okay?

thanks! yes, i'm still standing

yesterday was another marathon talking session- it's like he wants me to convince him why to stay and then at the end of it, he says "i just don't think i can be married to you" OKAY I GET IT. then get the frick outta here!!! he said the 3 reasons he's still here":God, the five kids, he loves me. i said wow those are pretty good reasons. he said he dreads coming home(that really hurts) he prefers being at work, where he is liked(i get the subtext of that one)he said there is no spark, no passion(another stomach kick)on and on. he said the therapist thinks it would be good for him to be on hiw own for awhile. i said most people don't get to check out of their life like that, especially with kids. i said you leaving will have a great impact on our kids. he said can i visit the kids. i said of course. then he will abruptly say "why don't you like me" i say i love you and i love the idea of us moving forward to a better relationship". then (this is after 2-3 hrs of talking) he says, i think i want to leave. i will borrow some money from (family friend). i said ok, if that is what you want. i leave room(upset but didn't let him know, call dd, she said mom knock it off,let him go(she's the msw candidate and a really smart cookie) and i go back into bedroom and say, WS, you know what. i want you to do what you want,, so you should leave. that seems like the best idea for now. but there are two rules: if you scr*w or date, all bets are off. he kind of nodded. and then i felt much freeer, i told him i can't keep him here against his will and i can't make him love me.(meanwhile i am getting much more in control of my emotions these days, at least when around HIM so no crying or snivvling)
so at bedtime, i tried on old jeans(now down two sizes! thank you cheatingbastardpredivorce diet!) and was kind of giddy about it. i said what's going on this weekend. he said i don't know, maybe have to work sunday for a release(these are planned WELL in advance so i am sceptical on this one-maybe apt hunting? was a thought) i said i can help you pack. he said where am i gonna go? i said i dunno you are the one who wants to leave. he said we can't afford it. i said you should have thought about that before you asked me for a D(all light-hearted), so...he also had talked to our 22yr old dd while i had our 6yr old at therapy, i said how'd that go? he said he's more conflicted than ever. haha! poor thing-our daughter is really sharp and will make an awesome counselor. she told me later she tried to be unbias but wanted to smack him. he kept putting things on ME and she would gently redirect and say, "this is about YOU. you asked for this and it's not on mom". i love that he's more confused now-ha!
moral of story-as day went on yesterday, i got more empowered and realized in my heart that if he wants to go, ultimately he's going to go. forcing him here isn't go to "keep" him here.
i am not one of the spouses here who had a really great relationship and marriage and my spouse went off the deep end-we have had lots of issues(his refusal to grow up, his detachment emotionally, his inconsideration, his poor leadership and more).
so if you have/had that kind of spouse i can't imagine the pain of this(and this is killing me!) but we have a pretty poor start. can it be rebuilt into something great? absolutely, but not without both of us.
dd also told her dad that leaving has consequences and if he doesn't like it, well he can't just waltz back in.she said certain people in this house could not take that and shouldn't have to.our 15yr old who suffers from depression couldn't take it. so....that's it for now. he's up gotta go

Your DD sounds like she'd make a great heir to Dr. Phil.

"How's that workin' for ya?" is what I kept hearing as I read about her talking to your WH.

thanks karmarose! i tell you, she is in her grad program and her field placement is at a rehabilitative center in the bowels of our great city . she does an amazing job with these older, other race men with whom she should have very little in common! it's strange, my older 3(22,20,15) all despise their father but when it comes to this final break, you can tell that they really want reconcilliation. he has no idea the damage he will cause
ps ow changed her facebook to complete privacy, i used to be able to look at her friends list, she had also changed her pic(which was a sort of sexy-ish pose) to her kids about 2 weeks ago. i'm on to you BEEEE OTCH!!!

last evening, ws and i went to grocery. on the way he began talking about ow, about an incident at work about how she aggravates him, about how she's going to be leaving and looking for a job elsewhere????????? prior to that he showed me a new phone ("they have boxes of them at work-which they may very well)and some new applications that apply to his car, so he told me ALL this detail about how you have a password, i casually said, "oh so there's an actual phone number" he said yes. BINGO. so this is how ws is talking to ow. AND he brought it into the house last night and put it with his "stuff:"(other blackberry, wallet, etc)
so my question is, it appears that ws is moving forward with ow, for her to leave the company i am guessing so that neither will be fired. i have been on plan a. he is mildly receptive but it always ends up in same final sentence "i don't think i want to be here" and "i think i want to be on my own for awhile". should i just kick hiim out? my nerves are raw and although i have gotten a MUCh better handle on my emotions outwardly, i am being eaten alive inside. my heart is so heavy and i know the outcome of this. i want to go into let it go mode so that i don't have to endure this extreme pain.

Mom: This is something you have to decide for yourself. I totally understand being eatene alive, being disrespected, not wanting to be taken on the painful ride that you see before you.

I did not follow MB to save my marriage. My H seemed hell bent on doing what he wanted, "being on his own". That meant he wanted a free pass from me to go be with OW. He wanted me to play nice and go away quietly but really....wait for him just in case he might want to come back some day.

I chose to tell him to leave and I divorced him. He's continued on a downhill ride for almost a year now. One I would have been on with him and probably couldn't have impacted. I chose to save myself and let him have his new life but without me waiting in the wings. I'm not going to tell you there's no pain involved but it was my pain and healing. I've disconnected from the mess of a life he has now and I didn't have to be on the receiving end of lying, cheating and disrespect. For me, it is the best thing I could have done.

Mominpink,

I certainly understand ladylonglegs approach. MB is for those who decide for whatever reason to try to recover the M. Nearly all of us here have been on the rollercoaster ride, been betrayed, lied to and disrespected. However, it is possible to recover a M and be in love with your spouse after an A. The path to doing this is rather narrow though and deviations from the plans are not usually successful. My H and I made plenty of mistakes in the last few years.

The posts above have described to you where to start. Do you have proof of the affair yet? Have you exposed the affair? It seems as if you are in the same place as weeks ago. Have you read the book, Surviving an Affair, and the posts in the thread for newbies? Have you made a plan?

Your husband seems very conflicted. He wants you and the OW. He has complaints about her (maybe she is putting demands on him that he does not want to do). At the same time, he talks about her. In my case, after the A, my H told me that when he was in the A and the phone rang, he would curse the phone, not want to talk to the OW, not want to meet her demands. But he always picked up the phone. This was an example of his addiction to the OW and to the A and it was strong.

If you want to bust up the A and recover your M, gather your information and expose. On the other hand, you said in several posts that your M was difficult all along. No one would fault you for asking H to leave and divorcing him.

AM

thank you lady and army mama for your support and words. i have not heard from pi yet today(i am thinking i will this weekend) he is waffling quite a bit and puts this move out on his therapist(and atty i have come to find out today). he says it's an "unconventional approach" i said, 'i don't know how we can work on our marriage when you live elsewhere". we had a talk this a.m. i am getting better and better at plan a-no fussing, very calm, sweet . sorry for my OWN ambivelence. i am strong and i have faith i can get through this. thank you so much
ps i have read the book

you are being very smart, stay calm even wen it hurts, the bigger plan is what you have to focus on.
before you make any moves, come here get the plan straight in your head and then move forward with the end result as to what you keep your eye on.....
this is a long road either way, the key is to stay strong and keep your objective so you come out of this either way a better person.........
right now you can't let your emotions rule your decisions, your logic side needs to take over a little.
this isn't easy but anything worth having isn't without a fight or some work......
it's the one who thinks things through, understands all the facts and is willing to do the work that wins........
don't forget that the one thing your husband and the OW forgot about was you and what you are capable of. They have underestimated you and your strengths, in every marriage one person has to take over when the other is weak, this is your time.....

thanks jessi!
we were even flirting earlier and gosh, it feels like forever since we did that. it's all of these unresolved/fresh/old/reawakened feelings that are all jumbled up. i generally have used them antra "i have hope for our marriage" at least once when we have these serious conversations.
yes, i realize i have to be strong(and my faith is holding me up right now, believe me!) and blessed people like YOU
ps i just looked at your stats. Good for you! that encourages me greatly

MIP,
You're doing well, but do make sure the PI gets the info before ow goes on trip.

And hopefully he will get busted and you will do a thorough nuclear exposure as soon as you get the proof. Please do that. You're doing great plan a (the carrot). Now get the proof and do the STICK of the plan and whomp the affair with a really biiig stick!

Wishing you well!

peachy
thank you! i don't know what pi got this week. i really don't? i am praying for strength.

ps your signature story encourages me, either way . blessings to you

mom, only you can decide the course of your life. My concern,though, is that you have five children who will be affected. Don't do anything in haste except protect yourself and kids. Did you move the money? What happened there?

he didn't do anything with the money, mb. he said he is just trying to get the finances in order. i am discouraged by his ambivelence . but tonite we went to a neighborhood party for trick or treat and we did ok together .
waiting to hear from pi...nervous as h e double toothpicks

Don't be nervous MIP. Getting the news is a good thing after all, if you were a patient, and had been feeling sick for a long time and had tests run, you'd want to know the results so you could find out and fix the reason you were feeling bad right?

Same with results from the PI. You're M was feeling sick and you think you know why. You gotta find out what is going on before it can be fixed.

Just watch your wh and his actions and do as MB also suggested above and protect you and the kids at all costs. Do watch the finances. My xwh spent so much of our (yes I helped him with his company)$ to finance his cheating and the subsequent affairage. Just watch the $ and keep an eye on what he does.

Good that he saw home and family as fun last night. WS want a reason imho to come home. They have to want that, and their bs, more than the addictive pull of the destructive ema ok.

Hoping you get the info you needed from the pi. Be brave! Pulling for you

Have you tried to talk to him about the importance of both of you working on this together? It only makes sense - you're both spending/saving the money. You both should know what's coming in, going out, and where it's going.

he agreed we'd sit down and do it together, then take a more "dave ramsey money makeover" approach(envelopes per category i think) so that we(I) don't overspend.
i stayed up half the night with my older kids and then went to bed around 4;30am, woke up after an awful dream about ws telling me who the ow was(funny it was another gal he used to work with) AND that he wanted to be with her(all said with a cheshire cat grin on his face). i woke up shaking and was really sick all morning. ws asked me what was wrong. i simply said i didn't want to talk about it. he prodded me on way to, and after church but i never told him. we had a very nice family meal, he and i talked awhile, he told me that he wants this(meaning us) to work but it has to or it's over. i have been doing well at controlling my emotions. whenever i want to cry or scream, i simply shut up. that usually forces him to talk more(which is funny, because he's always been so quiet and introverted) i feel confused, ambivelent myself. i am petrified over what pi will tell me tomorrow(she said she has a 48hr waiting period after a surveillance-i didn't get a report sat so i am assuming she found something). ws also had his passport with his stuff(wallet, blackberry, etc) and you-know-who just went to china for a couple of weeks, so i don't know if that is wishful thinking on his part?
i am trying not to weaken and it's hard because he has me half-convinced that there's nothing going on anywhere.....this is normal right?
will keep you posted. thanks for your support which keeps me going!

Okay, sister. Hang in there and keep us informed.

waiting to hear from PI this morning, nervous and exhausted but using time to read informative posts.
so, i will be right here asking for help when PI gives info.

then plan b-after we did the bills together last evening, i thanked ws for his patience and for taking leadership(one of his big contentions in our marriages is that i am controlling-well with a workaholic, emotional detached spouse, SOMEONE had to take charge of our lives) he said ,'it's going to be ok". i said "i dont want you to leave" he said, "i don't want to leave". he's going to therapist today(which ws claims is really pushing him to leave as is atty he saw last week) i found apartment info in his "secret" journal, which he keeps in his laptop carry case and he did admit to looking at apartments online(they are furnished which i thought odd cuz ws keeps saying WE haev way too much stuff and it hasn't made him happy, that he just needs a bed and a tv) ha!
so, i had requested to him that he also speak to a pastor before he decides to go. he said he would this week. A. how can i believe he has? and B. then when he leaves, do I go to plan B, and what is this "darkness" everyone keeps talking about? ws said he'd continue to do the bills with me, but other than that, do i not speak to him at all? does he have to call to see the kids? someone clarify please....

Yes go to plan B when he leaves, when we mention go DARK DARK DARK that means no emails, no text, no FB, NOTHING do not see or talk to him. Find someone you know that can be an IM so if he needs to talk to you about the kids then he HAS to go through that person first.

Being "dark" means not speaking or seeing WS at all, not even to pay bills. You'll have to figure out how to continue to manage monthly expenses without involving him. He can call and speak to the kids, but he can't use them to send messages to you. All arrangements for visitation and any questions pertaining to day to day living will have to go through the IM (intermediary).

can that person be my 22yr old who lives at home and is in grad school?
ws has therapy appt today so i am waiting to see what transpires...

also, then have daughter find out that he is paying the bills and report to me?

i didn't realize dark meant invisible, and why/how exactly does that save my marriage?

also, is he made aware of this or do i just do it when he leaves? i don't get it exactly

so, now what? spoke to pi, she trailed ws twice-now all she knows is what he looks like and where he parks . she said she will find out tomorrow or wed if ow is in fact out of country or that was a lie...i feel like this is futile. all of his stuff is password protected. he works in a protected keycard entry office, etc etc.
he did slip up and leave attorney business cards by wallet this weekend. he did leave receipt for new bank account in his wallet. but i doubt i will find correspondence from his honey . i am going on very little sleep today and i have a 5yr old playing away in the tub. ws is probably at his creepy therapist right now getting advice to leave for awhile and "find his happiness". i could cry.
have been reading past posts getting more info. was really praying to expose so soon. can't do it without the goods

mom - you need to read up and educate yourself on Plan A and Plan B. Do you have the book *Surviving an Affair*?

In short:

Plan A is when you (1) make any needed changes in yourself to show your spouse that you can be a desirable marriage partner for him/her, and (2) do everything you possibly can to bust up the affair, especially exposing it to practically everyone who knows the WS and their OP.

However - Plan A almost never works on its own. It is mostly a setup for Plan B. That's why there IS a Plan B.

If you do a good Plan A for something like 4-12 weeks - whatever you can tolerate, but three months is about the limit - and the affair is still going on, then you go to Plan B.

In Plan B, you first give the WS a letter explaining that it is simply too painful for you to continue living with them as long as they are continuing their affair. Then, you go "dark". The WS lives elsewhere and you do not see them or communicate with them in any way. You should not know anything at all about what they're doing.

You have an intermediary (IM) to filter messages from the WS and ONLY give you the basic information. The IM removes any complaining or cruelty from the WS's messages. Instead of, "Why is mominpink5 being so petty and selfish? She's a real B%*$@ not to talk to me and you can tell her I said so! I will get the kids at 5:00 tomorrow night and she'd better stop acting so crazy!" the IM would ONLY send you the message that "WS will pick up the kids tomorrow night at five." The rest of the junk is removed and you never see it.

You do this to remove yourself from the cruelty and selfishness of his cheating so that you don't have a nervous breakdown and so maybe you still have some love left for him if he ever gets himself back on track.

It also shows the WS what divorce will be like and *sometimes* wakes them up, but mostly Plan B is to protect you and the kids from a cheating spouse.

I know you're busy, but please read up on this. Your family depends on it.

P.S. No, the IM should absolutely NOT be your daughter. No child, even one of that age, should be used as a messenger between parents whose marriage is breaking down. No child should ever be put in that position.

Find a strong friend with character who is willing to do this for you. There is a thread here on exactly how to be an IM.

gosh, thank you. we are fairly new to this area(state) so it's going to be very hard to find an IM to help me with this stuff? i am losing it today, can't believe he is putting me through this, nerves are raw, and to top it all of, he is a liar and he's in love with someone else. what is the success rate of plan B? i don't think i have the stamina to do this for months on end, waiting for someone who may never come home
i have been implementing plan A out of the last 29 days(day he said i'm done) for 24 days but it may as well be 3 years. i am so spent, tired and worn out . i know, it's a pity party but somehow he's getting rewarded for his really bad and sinful behavior?

Not sure of the success rate but it is the best way to have a marriage to salvage and rebuild from.
As you said, your H is lying and in love with someone else.

You lay your best groundwork in plan A and then if it does not get him to turn back to you and close the door on the OW, you can either follow MB plans (B) or settle for a mess.

Plan B is for you. You nurture yourself and learn to create your identity separate of your identity as part of a couple. You are in a triangle now anyway.

Plan B can be the way to saving a marriage but it is also a way to save yourself.
No guarantee on the marriage but a guarentee on YOU.

If you go into a plan B....you will go through a hellish grief period where you miss your marriage experience LIKE h.e. double toothpicks. That is your withdrawal from being with your spouse.

I think you have to start thinking about your circle of aquaintances for an IM.

While discussing money with dh during plan A, ask your dh for money in an account with a year's expenses(assuming you have built a life savings together so far) in only your name so you don't feel as vulnerable in this situation (since he sounds like a financially amiable guy at least at this point). Tell him it is to make you feel safe and is still both of yours. You tell him you will not use it but have it in case he were to dissapear off the planet and you had to take care of the family.Play the damsel a bit here.

Again, plan B is the best road to saving a marriage, I believe in the plan. Other plans are not really plans. This is. You follow it even when your instincts say "No! I can not do this miserable thing!" Instincts are selfish and want us to have immdediate control which isn't likely in this experience in life. It is long haul city. Not for the faint hearted. Not for the delicate souls. It is war for your family.

so tonight i took advantage of the part of plan a that says, "do something for yourself". i took myself to a favorite japanese restaurant, then to see Secretariat. It was a much needed respite from the stress I feel in this mess. my wonderful dd took care of her siblings.
Also, didn't want to be home when hubby came home from work, but he did kind of pounce when I got home and we talked briefly. he has a very bad cold boo hoo. Apparently, he saw the therapist today and is still as "confused as ever" haha. I love him battling his conflict. he tried to put it on me and said "i played a big part in it" and i said, "well, you keep telling me that you want to work on you and this is about YOU, so it's really NOT about me" all the while in my pink satin pj's that haven't fit me in probably four years(yay me!)
i think i can i think i can i think i can

"Do something for yourself"

is really important right now especially when you get stressed and discouraged - if something gets revealed and you go plan B its even MORE important to pamper yourself - go buy some new clothes!

Mominpink5


Are you okay? You kinda fell off the grid.

sorry,
so we had a decent weekend and ws seemed very conflicted about moving out. he said his therapist said that "i wanted to hurt him" and that he should move out. ws said he didn't know what to do, but i kind of convinced him that leaving the home wasn't the right thing to do.
so yesterday, we sat and talked and talked as we did monday evening. he had an appointment with an attorney so he went to see her(a christian woman) and she told him he wasn't ready to leave the home, so he shouldn't and he should consider a new therapist. so did ws make up everything about the therapist?
then, ws works on this "plan" of us having our needs met(much like emotional needs), our dealbreakers(or LB's) etc. so ws seemed very enthusiastic and said he was finally at peace at his decision to stay for now.
so, ow is out of country for work. is that why ws is coming my way? he showed me texts and i read one that she said she had gotten "there" so she is most likely out of the country.
next, pi has trailed him twice. all she knows is where he parks. big flippin' deal. :(, his blackberry and computer are password protected so it's like i am going to get any solid info.
i am confused, heartsick and wondering if i can "play along": with ws regarding this new marital plan of ours. i feel like i am nuts, and ws keeps telling me there is NOONE ELSE.
tonight we are walking. it has been 30 days since he said he's done. my stamina comes and goes. i am getting better at controlling my emotions but they say not to continue plan A for too long. how the frick can i move to plan B when i don't have the goods on him? i need a "there there" or a knock in the head, or something

There are a tremendous ammount of "indicators" to tell you when you need PB. I do not think you are there(not even close) yet. There are better advisors than me here, tho.

Keep posting and reading. Do you have the SAA book?

You know what?

You can't control him, you can't control the therapist, you can't control anything or anyone but YOU! And that is very cool. I know you are emotional. I believe everyone really is, some just show them outwardly more than others. You will get better skills are holding your cards to the vest from this mess. That is a good thing.

Anyway, work your best plan A while you are fact finding and enjoy the feeling of being your better/best self even during a difficult experience. You can lay your groundwork, find out more and learn to not react in lovebusting or even revealing what you find out. Feel the emotions and use the knowledge of the situation to your best advantage for yourself. To be in the know, unbeknownest to your wayward H.

If OW is out of the country, fine. He isn't dating her while she is. Good. If she really isn't you will find out from the PI.

Anyway, enjoy plan A. It is kind of courting your H away from the other woman. It is courting him enough so when you DO implement plan B.......he just might think of you more than he otherwise would. Compare every freakin' thing she does to you. Think of you in the middle of the night when he wakes up with a guilty conscience, etc. You will be on his mind if/when you go to plan B in a more haunting way than if you don't plan A before plan B.

Hang in there. It isn't fun but it is challenging to your very soul. isn't that what life really is about?

I agree with Barbiecat regarding being nowhere near plan B
with exception to visitin an attorney - how do you really know what advice he received?

stay calm!

thank you so much. i have seen an attorney and it did comfort me(we have 3 minor children, two are young).

my sister just prayed with me over the phone while i sat out in the garage in my car(it wasn't on and i feel MUCH better.

i will get through this i will get through this....

You've got us, too, mom. Know that. When you're in your darkest moments and feel so alone, WE ARE HERE. I was thinking about you at 3:00 this morning and sending healing wishes your way. (I was on my way to the bathroom. )But you are so important to me that you were on my mind as I stumbled my way in there.

You are among friends.

well ws husband mentioned kind of casually, i sort of prodded, that if things don't work out(big project overseas) well, yeah, there's a real possibility he would have to go and fix them. um, ok. that would probably put me into plan b. cuz if he and she were both over there, the consumation would most likely occur.
i am feeling great peace and because of my beliefs and things ws said to me tonight, he is making it clear that remaining here and working on "us" is very conditional-his conditions. i am like the lamb going to the slaughter...it's ridiculous and repugnant given the crappy husband he has been in most of our marriage. he is either going to wake up, be woken up, or drift off in this fog and lose everything. i think i am understanding more and more that even though i want to restore our marriage, i can't control him or make him do anything and somehow there is some freedom in accepting that.
tomorrow morn, i'll probably be a nutcase again!
thanks mb for your thoughts-i always look forward to hearing your input, the support means the world to me, it really does!

Remember the book - "The Little Engine That Could"

I think I can I think I can -

also when you feel like you might explode visualize a stop sign. It worked for me many times - that was advice someone gave to triggers here on MB

thank you gg
feeling blue today and defeated. gonna spend time with my teen-ager
(((hugs)))

last night, ws and i went to look at health clubs to join together. he got kind of p*ssy with a young punk club worker who said he couldn't try out the bench(hubby is ex-football player wanting to get back into lifting) so he kind of told the kid off. i oohed and aahed over his machisma haha.
ok, all we do is TALK, like for hours. he talks and talks and i listen. is this good? not good? of course he says there is no one else, that the therapist told him i cannot be trusted and he should leave me. i told him therapist is nutso.we made this sort of written 'gameplan' about our needs and wants and trying to implement them. is this all just bogus?
we also have an appt with pastor next week and ws seems excited about that. is he just yanking my chains on all of this? p i had found nothing. i am wasting time and $...
i am pathetic-ws tells me he loves me and desperately wants THIS to work. i still have a pit in my stomach most of the time. trying very hard not to LB and keep plan a in motion

I would say talking and talking for hours, where you're just listening isn't good. Is he not listening or you are not talking? And I don't see how he can continue to see a therapist who undermines your marriage (YOU can't be trusted??). That would end fast with me. Does he want to work on this marriage or not? I know easy for me to ask, I don't know if H wants to.

me 45
H 46
married 18 yrs
just recently separated

You can't demand a WH stops seeing a therapist. That is controlling and a big love buster. Plus, it won't work. The WH will see whoever they decide to see.

You can say, I don't see logic to that (what the therapist by hearsay says). I dont' want that to happen, etc.

Talking IS good.

You are doing good mominpink5

It is a long haul though. Don't expect any quick fix or magic moment that it is all gone. Learn to live in the moment and be beguiling as can be during plan A.

I wouldn't believe a word of this unless you see it coming directly out of the therapist's mouth.

got some xanax from dr yesterday to takae anxious edge off. lowest dose possible, then i split it in half . hoping this helps my stomach etc issues.
i did say that i thought therapist(who treated our son briefly before his hospital stay in sept) and whom i have met that i think he's wack, cuz this man is VERY manipulative, direct and confrontational. that is what ws likes about him(the direct approach) but i have no real idea what has been said. ws told me today that therapist told him to run from me, as i want to destroy him and that upset him greatly, etc etc. i kind of just said "wow". he said that since he isn't adhering to therapists recommendation to leave the home(he has appt next week) that therapist will probably refuse to continue seeing him. he did the same thing with our son. do what i say or else! VERY BIG EGO, non? ws seems to want to present "plan" to therapist that he/we have created regarding meeting each other's needs.
we did a couple's devotional last night and ws is insistent we join a gym together. i haven't thought of myself as beguiling lately but i will do my best.
thanks to all for your unending support. i won't believe at the end of this that i made it through!(that spoken from someone who endured 5 yrs of infertility to have #4 child and thought THAT was the hardest thing ever) until(our teen-age son battled depression) until...well THIS BIG FRIGGIN MESS.
so, CAN ws fall back in love with me? not as long as she is around right? and how do i get the goods since pi isn't doing, can't find squat?
happy weekend to all.

I don't think your PI is going to come up with much until OW is back from China. I think you're going to have to wait awhile longer, sorry to say.

I hope the Xanax kicks in fast!

I don't know what to say about the PI and China. That is frustrating for you but
you will find that whatever seemed a big deal before this infedelity isn't as big a deal anymore. It puts a different perspective on your whole sense of experiences.

You might not seem to be having him fall back in love but you do your best to 'win' his attentions back. You give him no further fuel for making you out to be a villian in the marriage and you work on strengthening your relationship by being reasonable, attractive, alluring(do your best cause that is where the OW has put her hard sell towards) and if the affair ever crumbles, you have good deposits in your account in your H's love bank.

Even if things don't seem to be turning your way

you ARE a contender

and are not going in the direction OW hopes you are going to go. Even if you go to plan B, you will be on his mind. Everything will be a comparison in his heart at that point. You will be in his dreams even if he winds up playing house with her while you take time out in the future.

It is quite a challenging task dealing with infedelity, we all know it here.

"You can't demand a WH to stop seeing a therapist"

Then how can anyone demand they stop seeing someone in a EA? This therapist is a clear threat to the marriage, saying "Just leave her". No difference imo.

You don't demand they stop seeing someone in an EA. You negotiate the best you can and have clear boundaries that you are willing to stand for.

Well, there are selfish demands and demands where you state your boundaries.

You can't see so and so ever again= selfish demand

You can't see so and so ever again due to the pain it causes me or we will need to seperate= stating what your own personal boundaries are

YK

You can not forbid a spouse to see a louse therapist but you can say" I don't feel this therapist is good. I hope you find someone else who is more useful for you".

Cabbages, one thing you discover in this MB land is you only control yourself, no one else. It was always an illusion of otherwise.

thank you all so very much. ws went to dentist and other errands. i found an apartment brochure and application. apparently he's moving ahead, even though he says he's working on our new "plan". crushed yet again but i got up, got gorgeous, wearing my best color(deep turquoise and buzzing around doing some chores.
it's all a farce and for me, i believe there won't be a plan B. when ws leaves, the end begins. i may change my tune as this goes on, but for now, i am feeling pretty resolute.
i read last night about unforgiveness and bitterness in marriage. not only is he sinning(infidelity) but hardening his heart to me will not get his prayers answered(i can't remember the scripture) so i am getting all of my spiritual ducks in a row, if you will. He is the only way I am getting through this mess.
(((hugs)))) to all fellow bs's. your support is astounding and meaningful

Reading I've been here many years unfortunately (had to add an s to my original name). I know we can only control ourselves and I couldn't force him to stop making appointments. But continuing to see a therapist who is telling you to leave your spouse...are they seeking to help the marriage, or to help end it? This is a person instrumental in the success/demise of a marriage. And there is a range of things to do between not reacting and demanding a change. I worded it terribly before "this would end"...but I think it's as dangerous as an EA and there would be consequences for sure.

I think you need to be careful not to believe everything your H tells you the therapist says......your H may be telling you what he wants YOU to think he's being advised.....it takes the pressure off of him as he can act like it isn't his idea to move out. How do you really have any idea what the therapist is saying to your H.....only through your H telling you, not from the therapists' mouth. And your H is trying to find reasons to leave so why not lie to you about what the therapist is saying?

I have a close friend who is a psychologist and she says its amazing what some of her clients tell their families that she said. They spin what they tell the family in order to justify their own behavior and make it seem like the therapist approves of their behavior. My guess is no therapist would be saying the things your H says he's being told, and would not make comments about a wife of a patient's that the therapist has never met.

Mom,

Ladylonglegs is accurate regarding the therapist - hang in there and start thinking plan B - it does work - its not a lost cause we had a lease on an apartment signed and he never moved out
but it would be nice for you to get info on ow so you know what your dealing with.

so more fun today...found his new checking account book-he already wrote a check to atty for 1500 and another apartment pamphlet. i literally shook. he tells me that "he is not doing ANYthing to undermine me" and that he wants to work on our marriage.
i'm sorry, but i am checking out of this. too painful, too volatile.
i need to find an atty pronto and get a retainer going...can't believe this is happening.
i said to him, "how are we supposed to work on our marriage when you have one foot in and the other out?"

hey mom,
Don't believe anything he says, protect yourself......and keep checking the more knowledge you have the better....
He thinks you are not smart enough to figure out things, but protect first and then negoiate......
good luck.....((hugs))

thanks jessi,
i am feeling far less emotional than earlier. i am going to contact an atty on monday and probably cash out a life insurance policy to have retainer $, so i am going to be pro-active and he's going to get what he wants...

so, didnt spend too much time together this weekend, well we did, but i knew that ws needed a break from all of the emotional banter that occurs when we spend time alone together(he often brings stuff up)
so i found an application for a safety deposit box and another apartment pamphlet. he said he was just considering the safetey deposit box to ensure i don't open anynew credit cards(i shared our debt over a week ago, he hasn't participated in the finances for 20+years so he claims he working to get "over" that new revelation of bills) he told me i could meet his attorney to discuss why he gave her the retainer fee. i just emailed him this a.m. requesting an appt with us for both of us to see her(ok you give an attny 1500 to fight a ticket you got-ws made a u-turn while taking me for a dr's appt that was confusingly signed. even the cop felt bad for pulling him over and told ws to fight it, so he needs an attorney for this? i was with him when it happened. he claims it's because he drives a corporate vehicle and doesn't need the points) whatever
i told ws yesterday that after seeing pastor this week and seeing the attorney together(fingers crossed) that he would have to s h or get off the you know what. even though i don't have proof and ow is probably out of country still, can i move to plan B?
please advise

also, ws asked me on sat what my boundaries were.(we had talked about the boundaries in marriage, protecting it from others) he said rather sarcastically, "so you expect me to work and NEVER speak to or have a relationship with another woman at work again?" i said, "no, that is not realistic. i expect you to guard your heart from stepping over the line(ws is very quiet and introverted but amazingly he has ALWAYS had female co-workers be chummy with him-must be his quiet charm and teddy bear appeal)and from putting yourself into a dangerous or tempting circumstance. he said, "you're never going to trust me". i said, "no, i don't trust other people and like a mother bear, i want to protect what is mine-YOU" then i just shut up because he continues to make allowances for his own behavior inside his head....
i am sitting here stewing over plan B posts, thinking it is probably the way to go. it has been 36 days of well, about 31 days of plan a and although at times, ws is softening towards me, he still has one foot in, the other out.

pss...anytime we discuss the above, he accuses me of accusing him of cheating and gets very defensive

Have you been able to get to his Blackberry?

You're in a tough spot, mom. It's hard to get the goods if OW is out of the country.

Only you can tell when you're ready to go to Plan B. That involves no contact with your H. Have you read up on it, and are you ready to move to that?

You need to read up on the site. You are stressing about the wrong things.
You are doing an A+ job snooping. You can control yourself, but not your H current actions.

Do not be derailed about an appartment application. That is a waste of your energy. Focus on your PA and things you can change.

you are on the right track.

I dont think plan B will work until or if he signs a lease and moves out - it would be too hard unless you ask him to leave - where would he be able to stay?

he has looked at two apartments that i know of, gotten literature, and an application. he is expecting a sizable bonus in january. i think he's trying to put off leaving til he has that xtra $ to bank on.

what is PA? personal agenda?

PA= Plan A. Focus on your Plan A.

Whoa! For a second that I thought mom had jumped into her own PA! (physical affair)

well....since i am working out, losing weight, i am becoming quite the COUGAR

thanks for the love and support. I just got on the elliptical and prayed for my ws. No matter what happens, I am going to honor God and be a good example for my children(I hope)

You go on which yo bad self, mom!

So, it appears that the beginning of the end is here. last night ws came home, nice dinner as a family, walked together, some light talking about his job, came home, adult daughter asked/confronted him regarding ink cartridge needed for computer(she had two huge grad school papers to print) she was angry. he calmly said, 'i won't allow you to talkt o me like this' and walked away. later, i was worried about our 15yr old son(suffers from depression) he was outside alone at 9pm, told ws. he was unaffected. even got on his blackberry with email from overseas(where sweetie is) and i said, what are you doing? he said, email from "place". i said, you're not even concerned about our son? he said, what do you want me to do?
half hour later, in kitchen, daughter begrudgingly apologizes to ws for her attitude. he told her that he won't be mistreated(after years of mistreating us) then teen-age son more or less told ws he sucks(not those workds,but something derogatory) ws went to bedroom. i shortly followed. he said, 'i'm done. i can't do this anymore. i can't this abuse" i said, 'ok, alright'. i also said,' i am sorry you are hurting so much right now" he said, 'i need time for myself right now" "goodnight wife" then i left.
this am early, ws leaving for work, i went into our bedroom, he said, ' i think it's time for me to move out" i said, 'ok, alright" he said, 'things have to radically change around here or i am leaving". i said 'ok, alright"
so ws has already planned, schemed and set in motion his plan. i am going to let him go.
we are to see a pastor this afternoon. he said before leaving, ' i hope pastor has something to say that is enlightening" or something to that effect.
ws has already left the building-i am going to let him go. i am not going to fight, argue or plead. my teenager is very vulnerable and needs me. ws sees NOTHING of what he is doing to our older kids(younger two are mostly unaware)
i get 3 hours of sleep at night, have a wicked cough and brewing sinus infection, no $ since ws moved it all and i am stressed to the max. he can go and have his cake or whatever else he wants. he wins. he gets the prize.
knowing ws, and mucho reading the last few days on mid-life crisis, it looks HIGHLY unlikely that ws is going to "get it" and return home to his family. he already had his new life planned out and his future mate. i am not strong enough to be one of those who waits months and years, to then have a ws not return anyway.
thank you all for your support and kindness during this period in my life. it has been very painful and your support has lifted me up and kept me sane. i am not going to be a punching bag, a doormat or a fool. my ws is lost, he IS a lost soul and only time will tell what the outcome is for his life.
my kids are so precious to me and losing their father like this is awful, terrible, disgusting, hurtful, unbelievable. the last 37 days has shown me some of my own faults and contributions to our poor relationship. i asked for forgiveness, he gave none. i asked for a new beginning, he wants one elsewhere. i expressed my love and commitment, he hardened his heart.
i know i have exhausted my own possibilities to restoring our marriage and creating a new one. i am at peace over this fact. i can look at my beautiful children and KNOW that i tried to do the right thing. their ws has other plans.
it's going to be ok. i have God on my side and wonderfully loving children and friends who support and love me.
i will let you know how it's going but i am most likely not moving to a plan B.
love and blessings to all

If there ever was a jerkwad that needed to be Plan B'd...


REALLY???? He's betraying his family every chance he gets, and they are abusive?

What amazing fogbabble...

Mom, fighting, or letting go, do Plan B anyway. Got it? Do it anyway!

DARK.

You have to show him his actions do not lead to an amicable split. OK?

Little boy needs to man up and put on his big boy underwear.

mom,

Please pause and take lots of deep breaths - you are under incredible stress - it looks like you need a plan B approach for you sanity but dont throw in the towel - can I tell you that on day 35 I was ready to meet with the attorney and file but decided to take a breath and give it time - two weeks of hell after that before the breakthrough and my husbands realization of his actions and selfish behavior - please hang in there but go ahead and start plan B!

mom,

Also remember you are sleep deprived and its reallllly hard to
think clearly on auto pilot!

I am unable to do a complete plan b as suggested because i have no one to be the intermediary with the kids etc. we are new to state, just don't have that kind of friendship established yet. ws took the money into new account to do future bills-he has told me that i can do them with him(watch) then he will give xxx amount of $ for living expenses.
i cannot go completely dark and i am afraid to NOT get an attorney involved regarding visitation and custody of my kids. do i file for legal separation? not file for anything?
i am sorry-the stress(and my illness) are wearing me down, down, down. worry over my teen is causing me great angst.
you are all so terrific.
i have to book saa. i will look at it shortly

You are certainly within your rights to go straight to Plan D. I'd still suggest Plan B.

You didn't move any of the money? He got it all? I know this has been exhausting, mom, but you need to straighten up here, for a second. You need to take another look at the money situation. Is there any money, anywhere, that you can secure?

You may not want to deal with this right now, but you need to. You and your children are financially dependent on a man who is taking all his money away. That won't do.

You mentioned awhile ago good credit and available line to tap
do it now so you can talk to an attorney - you can talk about
separation to protect finances but slow down - the plan B is
to save your sanity it doesnt have to be forever and you may just have to use an attorney as an itermediary - read SAA asap so you understand the fog and fantasy your husband in living in!

there is a life insurance policy i am going to cash out(my name worth over 7grand) i have cash advances available on two credit cards(but will carry high interest) i have some jewelry i can wsell.
i have a depressed teen who is (right now non)homeschooled and i have to not run around all day and leave him alone.
there are BIG stresses right here, right now.
i DO appreciate the advise and counsel.
i am going to try and focus going forward today. thank you all

Also in most cases the betrayed spouse ends up filing becaues the WS is feeling guilty and drags their feet -

If you think you can handle it for plan B I made a policy of email ONLY so we didnt get emotional but that was only the first 14 days he was out of town but I had kicked him out of the house when I confirmed the affair -

You are right. This is classic WW setting YOU up so YOU feel responsible for choices that he already made. You are going to have to let him go.

There are people here who may be willing to IM (mod) for you. Really, it is taking the pertainent information from a message, and passing on ONLY what is 100% neccessary to both parties.

So simple I am sure it is hard.

You better buckle your seat belt. He is way, way into the fog and it is going to be one heck of a ride.

what is WW?

I want to let him go-just went thru hidden paperwork, notes, etc. made me sick to my stomach. I don't want to be this person. I want to get on with my life. I have become physically ill from the stress-he really is not worth it. Are my children and family worth it? Absolutely, but if ws makes decisions and choices, I am not in control of those, only in control of me and what I can provide to our children(they are awesome btw
WS has never had much of a conscience about our relationship, no ownership, that certainly isn't going ot change now.
I just hope he's out by week's end.
i am sure he's using the visit with pastor this evening as "final decision". Go GOD!!!!!
thank you

Give it a short stop right here. Is this the real, and actual truth? He has NEVER been a partner and friend to you, EVER? Or is your current context causing you to rewrite your marital history?

If you just walk away, when the pain subsides, will this still be your assessment of the ENTIRE marriage?

mom,

you probably are one of those people who needs to be in control at all times - just like me - that is why you are the first person I have ever tried to help on here - your husband is alot like mine too - the whole kid thing and resentment of how much YOU are handling by yourself is very overwhelming - I can relate to it - let him move out and start plan B - read! ww is wayward wife I meant to write WH which is wayward husband -

when you read SAA you will learn how fog impacts all the decisions your husband has and will make - have you told any close friends and relatives whats going on - you need adult support.

Also you know about the stages of grief - you will go through all of them - right now you are angry and that means you want to find control and that would be by making some decisions!

headheldhigh,
ws has been a workaholic, very much living his own agenda for 23+years leaving me with kids, life, etc. he has played provider role very well, outside of that VERY little in way of parenting or partnership. he has traveled and come and gone, gone to bed without saying goodnight, not telling me specific travel itinerary, etc for years. (mostly work and travel, NOT going to bars, golfing, etc, well, not that i know of)
goldengirl,
i have told a few close friends and get support readily. i never see myself as a "control freak" but ws's inability to show leadership FORCED me very early on in our marriage to "be the boss" at home. it's funny, ws is a hugely successful, albeit quiet, upper exec. he is a very good leader and team builder, very fair and thought of very highly by peers and subordinates. emotionally, he has always been ill-equipped to lead at home, so left it to me instead of trying. he did spend many of the early years drinking on weekend(evenings, not all weekend) but relinquished all parenting responsibility to ME. i made it work, and you bet, i realize i resent it like h*ll, but that is all i knew/know and we have both paid a huge price.
also, ws has shown very little respect at times for our older 3 kids, now 22, 20, 15. has called names, threatened(you can go live on the street-i'm in charge, very much an emotional rager and bully) otherwise, very introverted and detached so as not to have to "deal' with family life.
last night, ws felt he was expressing his woosy feelings at being offended by the kids "picking on him". in reality, they don't respect him because he doesn't act like a father. he accuses me/kids of he's "only a paycheck" but honestly, he has set it up this way.
do i see good in him? absolutely. have i contributed to our troubles? you bet-we are both realizing what dysfunctional upbringings we came from, but i did go to him on day 5 of this ordeal, tell him what specific grievances i committed and needs i did not meet, and ask for forgiveness. his heart is cold and closed to me, so no matter what i DO, it's not going to penetrate.
getting ready for plan b
thanks to all

My husband traveled and was a workaholic as well leaving me to homefront but not issue with disrespect of kids - they were younger than yours though - I never resented the fact that I took on almost all the care of the kids - that is the number one thing that changed on day 35 for us and now it is team effort and he actually cares whats going on with the kids.

the paycheck comment was used at my house too!

Have you considered, that he (dysfunctional) believes that his work IS his marital contribution?

His LB behavior is another extension of this dysfunctional belief.

Have you read SAA? Do you remember "Jon and Sue?"

Question: would you be saying all of this if he was faithful and you didn't suspect an A?

Lady Birds, you are-a singing my song.

I am very alpha. Do not see that as a bad thing at all. My H is a very successful engineer who had tons of responsibilities at work. At home, he happily let me run the show. HAPPILY.

I was Martha Stewart on crack! He constantly complimented me on a job well done... or so I thought.

Blew up big time in my face about the age of 40.
We still have HUGE cotrol issues.

Oh yes, I suddenly fell from supermom to the "Overbearing, manipulative, unkind blankity-blank.."
and he WAS (and to as certain degree even today) the perpetual victim.
Hit me like a ton of rocks.. in the face.

I, like most alphas, really had no idea.
I didn't mean for it to turn out this way... I had a lot of pride in the way I treated my family..

In fact, we spent years in therapy trying to untangle stupid rules, when the underlying reason was never addressed... we both wanted to have control, we both wanted to be right.
The more you lose control and feel insecure, the more you desire to keep it, the less you trust someone, the less likely you are to give them control. Viscious cycle.

Lots of long term marriages have to face this type of dynamic change. It has taken me years of reading, to even come to this point.

POJA was/is next to impossible if there are underlying issues like this behind it.

I have concluded it doesn't matter how it was, it could still have happened if any emotional need was not met

House could have been too clean or not clean enough
Could have not traveled the world together or gone to the rain forest and so on
Could be the best looking hottest mama/pop or not (have worn thongs or not)
Could be controlling or neglectful of participation.

Just one stinkin' emotional need not met sets the whole boundarie crossing, blameshifting ball in motion.

That being said....I am not much kinder to myself. I don't expect perfection. There is no such thing. I don't expect it of my wayward (he obviously has f l a w s)

That is life. Hope springs eternal and all that.

your descriptive quote describing yourself was me too - sometimes there needs to be a captain running things though
I totally relate to your post - finding out was like a brick to the head - resentment is definately something you come to terms with during the recovery process - I am emotionally drained reading "moms" posts - its even making me trigger so
went to the gym - killer workout and now feel better.

what i resent was the fact that he came home, laid on the couch, drank and went to bed. there really was very little relationship between us(which of course we both now realize was wrong but seemed unavoidable) now he is having his "awakening" ie MLC(mid-life crisis) and all of his emotions(the bad ones towards me) are bubbling up and out. i have enjoyed being a mother thoroughly but HE resents that HE didn't get more of me. we had two more kids in our 40's which really knocked me on my can a bit. he does very little with them, prefers to watch tv alone after work. many many signs of depression have been there for years but he won't acknowledge...
it is a hellish life and y'all have been huber supportive and focused. it is such a rollercoaster, much like 'you're dying, nope. two hours later, wrong diagnosis, you're gonna live, next day, nope you're dying. the rollercoaster of emotion is of such great magnitude.
in fact, we have an appointment with a pastor at 5 and school called to tell me our 6yr old threw up. nothing like the evil one to try and throw a wrench in the plans.
i will persevere :), and let you know how it goes.
thanks for sharing your "success" story goldengirl. it is encouraging. was there ow?

maritalbliss,
yes i would still say those things. he has let me run the relationship, the house, the kids, the finances and NOW, now he tells me that he didn't want it that way. ????? very hard to hear that my own martha stewart tendencies were WORTHLESS in his eyes-the clean house, the pretty kids, the good grades(kids not me), the hot, hot sex, in the car!, the everything.
and NOW, NOW he wants to find himself and that special someone who can make him "happy" hahaha. really? ok, and how'bout a harley too?
i have reduced my housework by say 70% the last 36 days due to the stress of this craziness, and you know what? house still standing, no bugs yet(joke) and kids are alive, too! i did strongly identify myself with WHAT I DID, not who i am , because i think i was justifying for years being at home with kids and not having some stellar career(even though ws and i agreed together that i'd stay at home once we had our first child)
i have gone to marriage weekends, retreats, IC, etc for years working on our marriage. and i now know that you CANNOT work on, save, grow a relationship by yourself. Sadly, ws found another garden in which to grow
between the vomit and the bloodshed, i'll keep you posted

(((mominpink)))) a lot of what you describe is H (except he demanded doing finances, I can't imagine that extra burden). All the resentment is coming out, toward his parents too. You were smart to reduce the housework, sounds like you were overdoing it and the only way we can stop overdoing is to see that the world doesn't come crashing in if we stop!

Have you considered that it might not be the 'evil' one, but the 'good' one who did this?

Yeah, but. You didn't do anything until you got a wake-up call. So you've both gone drifting through your M all these years, with some attempts here and there to shore up a neglected M. But it sounds like your energies have mainly gone into house & children. I'm not saying that's a bad thing or that you're a terrible couple. It happens so often that it's unusual when it doesn't. I just wonder if there is any chance you can renew your M if your H eventually comes on board?

My question is: if there is no affair, if your H is just disenchanted with M and life in general, do you still want to end this? Because if you truly do, and you feel that you are better off without him, I'd go to Plan D.

Allright. Former bw here who went thru hell and back and am BACK to tell you to stand up for yourself and the kids.

We can help you w/a plan B. And still I am wondering WHY on earth you gave the ws, an alien from another planet basically (planet mememe)the checkbook in the first place.

Your kids deserve for you to fight for them, and they deserve a shot in the dark with regard to having a healed (yes one day it could be) healed and whole family. Are you going to let your H just walk away like this?

Most ema's last about 2 years in the amped up stage. It's a rollercoaster ride and you need to be wise and not react emotionally to a situation and see things more rational.

Hell I know it hurts. It hurt so bad. But I did not give in to my xwh. I was like you, living in a new state, and I did a plan B. A very very dark one. I did drop offs in public at a public place and he saw me maybe one nanosecond. No chance for talking or chatting. Just basically the back of my head. I had to do one for the same reason you have..new to my state then.

But the ws if they go unchecked and you don't try to make them become a FWS, give the family a chance, the outlook is bleak for them having any relationship with their father in the future.

My xh is now in the middle of his d to the xow and there will probably one day be another ow wife there. I wish my son could have a chance to have a relationship with his dad, but it won't happen because he never really had an opportunity to change.

Please work the plan A and plan B. Go for complete exposure. I don't get or buy how your PI did things at all. Not wise. You do not snoop for adultery info when the ow is on a business vacay. Please realize you can do this! It can be healed. You have to be stubborn and realize also that you cannot bargain with a wayward.

Nope you cannot because they are in 100 percent full taker mode and if you try to settle financially and divorce a full on wayward spouse doing things the way of the wayward, you will be screwed over big time. I have seen this happen over and over again.

Only with you HAVING A PLAN and being in the drivers' seat with that plan, and knowing you're the only one who knows 100 percent how this will turn out (if you follow a plan), then you are unstoppable. But you have to change and turn them around now.

Rolling over and letting the ws have their way, have the $, and dictate to you, the woman and family he betrayed HOW THINGS ARE GOING TO BE, is simply wrong. Do not stand for it!

Work a plan A. Work it hard until the day he leaves. Memorize please the carrot and stick of plan A. Get that info on proper exposure using the PI and expose the hell outta the ow. No mercy. None. Zero.

yes your child has depression. It's caused prob by his dad, a ws. By his dad's ema. But allowing a crazy, self absorbed ws to have $ and move out and use FAMILY FUNDS TO PAY FOR AN AFFAIR, will drain your bank account dry and that's not being a good mom. You cannot give the maniac ws full access to family funding at all.

I say do a 1000% plan A, with exposure ready to roll, and then do it after a week. Then go to B. And no mercy. No contact. No financial funding of his affair, which is HARMING his family. No funding for the ow either (and you damn well know that he is paying for her too). I am saying this with a dose of tough love because I was in your shoes. I felt my world closing in around me, and until I got enough guts to stand up to Goliath, I never knew what kind of strength inside I had.

You may reconcile and your family very well may heal from this. That would be a total joy and praise! But even if you do not, and you do end in D as I did, you will have secured some level of financial security knowing you didn't let a ws run all over your and take all the family funds. You won't worry over that. Plus you will have peace knowing you did all you could have done. If I hadn't tried all I could have, I might have had regrets. I have zero.

So if you have a firm plan, become a hard a$$ over family money, and dealing with the ws, and STICKING to the plan and working the plan A and B for all it's worth, in the end you will become a winner and your family wins too, with either a reformed, former ws as a daddy or as a tought minded mommy with a steel resolve who will heal from this and become unstoppable.

I had to go the latter route, but I am glad. I healed and kept my dignity. My ex had to face his responsibility and sins, and he ran from it, but the truth came out. I was able to have a better grip on how (for the first 5 years) my x was to pay cs for us, and I became healthy, happy, and moved on. This summer I married the man of my dreams, and life couldn't be better. But as the Steve Miller song , Jet Airliner, says, "You gotta go to hell before you get to heaven."

You must do all you can do and not give up. For your children and for yourself and for the family. Fight with all your strength, use all of your mind and do not react emotionally to the wayward (because it's useless) and devise a rock solid approach and do plan A and plan B.

Affairs are like going to war. War against an evil enemy. Dig into your foxhole, the fight might take a while, but you're the only one with a winning strategy!

Mom, you CAN go into Plan B even with no one close by to help out. You could have your IM be over emails. There have actually been and are currently MBers who are IMs for other MBers. Don't let that stop you. You just need a well trained IM and you will be FINE.

I am jumping on the Plan B wagon.

I am also going to tell you that it doesn't matter what your WH did or didn't do BEFORE. What matters right now is his affair, throwing huge fireballs at it to end it, moving on to Plan B and taking care of yourself.

Prepare for Plan B. Get it all set up NOW. Any interactions that you may have with your WH up until the moment that Plan B starts should continue to be Plan A moments. That way, whichever way this ends, you will know that YOU did EVERYTHING within your power to recover your marriage. And BONUS, you will recover yourself as well.

ok, so ws and i went to pastor-a very flat visit. ws told him the litany of things wrong with me(he uses one specific list from his journal) and i said very little. pastor yeah yeahed wh about men leading etc...i was ready to cry the entire time.
he did suggest we spend one hour nightly praying and reading Bible together. he also suggested us meeting a mentor couple. ws reluctantly agreed. we do this song and dance, "i'm done" i felt light hearted tonite so i chimed "i'll help ya pack". he goes round and round.
took ds to girlfriend's, came home, ws in bedroom watching tv, said, 'this is so hard. i can't do it anymore'. i said, 'what do you want to do?' move out?" he always looks so EXPECTANT when it's brought p, like a dog looking at a chew stick(is that for ME?)i said, do you want to meet the mentor couple? he said, 'i'll give it a try' BUT haha, i am getting used to this one, 'i am sooo close to being done'. um ok.
then he says, i just need a break for a few weeks. i said, you mean like having christmas and thanksgiving alone in an apartment? he said, or with my new family. um, ok. then he said, or i could go to ***(out of country) for a couple of weeks. i shot him a look, it was kind of funny or something. so he whipped out his laptop and says, "do you wanna see ow's picture? here, i'll show you" and proceeded to show me his staff and lo and behold there is ow(well maybe it really ISN't her and it's some other OW) i thought that was odd. i said, oh, i'm hotter than her
he said, "this is too much work". i said "life is too much work. get used to it" and on and on...
see, this morning i was resolute in letting go, like letting go, for GOOD. this is too rollercoaster painful and scary for me.
you all have great input and ideas-i am so grateful for your thoughts. they never offend and keep me centered(mostly).

I just sent this email to my precious daughter, who is suffering so much right now through this. We are best friends and aren't communicating well. She is so stressed ovee this,and grad school, and her siblings. She's 22 and the oldest and she is an amazing young woman, already helping the poor and the lowly in her field(social work). I am so proud of her. I feel like it does express some of my feelings and perspective right now

Daughter,
I can't put into words how hard it is to watch you suffer. I am incapable of holding everything up. I do not sleep, eat or rest. My mind is filled with the what ifs? What if he leaves today? What if he comes out of his fog and wants to be the man he is supposed to be? What if I can't find housing for us that I can afford? What if my car breaks down? What if DS has another crisis? What if I can't find a job? ALL of these things swirl around in my head, ALL DAY AND NIGHT.
The pain I have felt in this is like nothing else ever in my life. I did not realize the level of commitment I have been living, with someone who could give a sh@t about me, my feelings or his own family. I have done nothing but GIVE to him and to this family for its entire existence and yet it's unraveling and I cannot stop it.
I am worn, worn way down in my soul. I call out to God through the night and day, I sing hymns in my head as a reminder that HE is going to do GOOD things in our lives, that He is here for me, for us, at all times. I want answers, NOW. I want closure, NOW. I want resolution, NOW. I want apologies, NOW and yet I wait and wait and wait for things that will come in their time, not mine.
I envision our life going forward-a humble little existence filled with the same love and devotion to one another that we have had our whole lives. I think of making new memories and recovering somewhere ahead, and finding peace and new joy, and maybe even new people to love.
I also think of reconciliation, of your dad "getting it", of him realizing the GIFT of THIS family, and of making us whole.
It's such a split-and I vacillate all day and night over these thoughts. I can't imagine the calories being burned just by my thoughts over this mess.
The rejection is HUGE, it's huge. I walked down an aisle, innocently and full of hope for good things coming from our union. Much damage, baggage on both sides shaped bad habits and behavior. Can they be fixed? Absolutely. Must they be acknowledged and reconciled? Yes. I have played my part in this mess and I have tried to own it, without pride or puffed-up Christian babble, just trying to do the right thing. Your father has his own agenda right now andthat is one that does not include me, or us. It is excruciatingly painful to accept and difficult to ignore.
The waves of sadness, despair, regret, grief come and go in my day. I think of NOTHING else, no tv shows, no hobbies, no activities, just this huge LOSS that i am in the midst of. Death is final, it's swift and presents itself in a moment. It doesn't go away. It doesn't waffle. It is final. It is the end.
I am waiting, hoping and praying for the end of all of this. And yet it doesn't come. Each day stretches out long and challenging for me, knowing there is pain at any second, mixed with strength, hope and resilience. i am not some super woman, who can function amidst this emotional chaos.
I am praying and trying my best to follow God in this process. More than anything, I want to do His will in my life. Am I supposed to give up? I don't know. Am I supposed to fight for what I want? I don't know. It changes in the blink of an eye.
I don't know the outcome. I don't have the answers. i am navigating down a road I have not been on before. I pray and try my best to trust that I am smart enough, intuitive enough and good enough to make decisions that will benefit our family.
I know I have to push forward and move on, regardless of which dirction I/we are headed. I can do this, I have to do this, for me, for us.
I am sorry for the pain and isolation you and your siblings feel. I have you all in my heart every nanosecond of this ordeal, and my goal is to make sure that you are all okay when this is over. I have been through much suffering and tragedy in my life. I am strong enough to get through this, but on the moments that i am not, well, I am not.
I could not love anyone more than you, DS, DS, DS and DD. You are all what matters most to me.
I have not loved your dad the way he wanted/needed to be loved. He is a very wounded person who cannot cope with his feelings. he is panicked and thrashing about in his life, and trying to take down whoever is in my path(me). He doesn't know how to float(the Lord) so he is using all of these peripheral things to try and remain above the waterline. I know he can't do it, and God knows he can't do it. But he is exhausting himself(and me) trying his damndest to hold onto his pride and his sin. He will bottom out, he will go on, with or without me and our family. I do not know the outcome yet, but I do know that when all is said and done, I want YOU, my children, to KNOW, to BELIEVE that I, your MOTHER, did the right thing. As painful and devastating as it has been, I have to keep on this course till the road ends.
please forgive me for my own separation. I am using reserves I didn't know I had just to survive my days. You and your siblings are my priority, but i am also heading towards MY future, and I don't know what that looks like right now.
I love you so very much and i am so proud of the sensitive, caring, capable young woman you are. I appreciate your help with your siblings even if I don't say it. My energy is all scattered right now and I can't always explain myself.
Please know that we are going to be a stronger, more resilient family when this crisis passes, and it will. I just don't know when. God is everpresent in our lives and He is NOT going to leave us or let us down. I am so sure of this one.
I love you my beautiful daughter and I hope that you will forgive me for my weaknesses. Each day is another day closer to a solution. Pray and ask Him for your strength. I dont know if I can give you mine right now.
I hope you feel my love for you and know that my own pain is cocooning me right now. You kids are the best of my life, the best of me and when all is said and done, if you are all I have , then I will have exactly what I want and need in my life.
I love you, honey
Mom

On the upside, following this non-MB plan and line of conversation, you should have a very nasty and bitter distaste for each other by the time you are all done. Maybe both of you will also be kind enough to project it onto your children.

CAN you Plan A while you have time? CAN you avoid allowing him to bait you into these kinds of conversations?

Mom... PLEASE read Surviving an Affair.

I understand where you are coming from, I've been there. Please read my story and see if you don't see some similarities.

You are a believer... believe... and ACT.

Start over TODAY.

You are a beautiful woman. You count. You are loved.

I hear your pain in your letter to your daughter. I KNOW that pain and never wish to experience it again.

IF you follow the MB plans you will short-circuit your pain.

Praying fervently for you and yours.

Good morning hope you got at least some sleep last night
that was an intense note to your daughter - have you ever journaled - its great when you are stressed - did that for a few weeks when I was really angry!

I have read saa. i must be a very slow learner. it seems all ws says is disparaging things about me, to me. i read that i am not to be a doormat but if i stand up for myself, then it is a lb?
i am beyond trying to figure all of this out. i am kind to him, i look pretty, i ask for NOTHING, and i mean NOTHING. no take out the trash , no scratch my shoulder,
he is way out in left field and so over me. i really don't see how i am going to reach him?
i get kicked in the stomach daily by things he says, does. you all must be sooo much stronger than me cuz i am just not getting it.
i sat at the pastor's and pretty much let ws have at it, got to say very little and said very little. left feeling like I was the worst wife ever.
maybe encapsulate plan a in 3 steps:
1. keep mouth shut
2. say only positives
3. ignore negatives
4. ignore all "evidence" and pretend like there is no impending d?
sorry-i am dense. i am exhausted and i am stressed over the top over the fact that my husband and father of my children wants to leave me for someone else.
is there really a worthwhile success rate to any of this?
ps. so, ws said he would meet with mentor couple from church, reluctantly, said he is doubtful it will work or do any good. so bother? or not bother? why does this feel like he has control of EVERYTHING?

did you get the part about the affair fog he is int?

they rewrite your history- "never was happy" etc.....
they are aliens from another planet when in the fantasy!

the OW asks nothing of him she is so easy to be with never any demands or complaining - she thinks Im great

this was in the book!

Hang in there mom,
Your husband is in the middle of his fog infested world, just go through the motions for now, do all the things you have been doing, Being the woman that he fell in love with, understanding his emotions.....looking good.
Give him his freedom if that is what he wants, let him really feel what his decision will give him in the end.....
He will lose his life and you and the children......for someone that is just a fantasy. When she has to be all those things to him that you have been giving him. Watch how fast things fall apart......
If he thinks this is a lot of work, wait till he has to try to fit into her life.
Take care of you and the kids......be firm tell him his relationship is unacceptable to you and that you can't continue your relationship with him while he is still involved with her........
Mom he isn't yours now anyway......the sooner you make him do his self reflection the sooner the fog will lift......
I'd say plan on Thansgiving and Xmas without him......it's a great time of year for him to really feel the fact that his family will be gone from his life because of his decisions......
don't believe anything he says, take control of your life and don't worry what he is doing............
good luck

so ws just emailed me regarding getting the realtor over here. he's moving on. why am i bothering? really? why am i bothering?

Mom,
Look just agree, I know this is hard, but this is a reality for him as well, anything can be reversed........when I went through this, I also went to the bank changed all the accounts, credit cards...........drew up the separation agreement ......forced his hand.......I just said if you want out I need to protect myself, we were set to split, all he had to do was move out of the family home where the kids and I would remain. He would be the one that moved on to a new place with the woman he claimed he wanted a life with.........
Guess what when he actually was free to go he didn't want to anymore.....I think for the first time he could see what he was giving up and he didn't like the future for himself anymore..........
Keep in mind while I took care of the details of our split he was telling me he loved this woman and he didn't love me...............Mom they all spew that fog babble until the reality hits them square in the face.......
Show him the strength you have inside, then scream in the car while you are driving this is what I did............It's tough to get through this stage......
Have you gone to an attorney, start making separation agreements so your interests are taken care of......It will impower you...........if it doesn't work between the two of you, you will at least feel like not your whole world is falling apart........
hang in there mom, remember big picture, any decision can be reversed, you can always remarry, anything can happen mom.

Mom....I'm sorry for what you are going through, but I feel I must say you have got to get some anger into you and stop being victimized by your H! You are taking punch after punch and coming back for more.

You can't control him, he's essentially gone right now. He's using you for an emotional punching bag and you are staying around for more. Get him out of your house for your own sanity. This man doesn't love you right now, you hanging on isn't going to change that. Let him go. You will be better off and he will have to live in his fantasy world and see how that works. Loving someone (and he isn't that old person right now)is not an excuse for letting yourself be emotionally brutalized. Sometimes what we think we want isn't good for us.

I'm also very concerned that you handed over total financial control to your H when he's got more than one foot out the door. Go back to your attorney and get something started to require your H to support you and your kids. He's not entitled to 100% of your assets. The longer you let him have this money unrestricted, the more time he has to move it around where it'll be very difficult to get to.

You are focusing on him instead of you and your kids. Kick him to the curb.

There you go - lots of good advice from the veterans - start the process of getting him out of the house!

Mom, I know you're going through a terrible time. This will be undoubtedly the worst thing you will ever experience. But I think that I would put these thoughts to your daughter in a journal instead of projecting them to her.

I know she's a great, strong woman. But she'll always be your little girl. Maybe put your negative feelings in a private journal and communicate your positive ones to her?

This is why counselling during an affair is basically worthless. The wayward will rewrite history and compile a list of everything - real or imagined - that you have done over the years in order to 'justify' their affair.

He's in a fog. What do you want to do, mom? If you don't want to sell the house, tell him you don't. Do you want to?

He's got control of all of your financial assets, now he wants to take your home from under you. Stop trying to appeal to him or appease him and start taking care of yourself and protecting yourself from his actions.

He doesn't care about you right now. If you don't look out for your future interests, who will? Don't place your future in his hands......you'll regret it even more than losing your marriage.

See a counselor today about emergency support. TODAY.
You can fight for your marriage with a position of financial security.

I am sad to say, but it sounds like the H you knew is gone. You have to brace yourself to that reality, then decide how you are going to move forward.

Does not mean that this marriage can not be recovered.

Just not at this moment.
Keep reading and posting.

He is taking advantage of you.

My 2 cents:

You need to read SAA over and over and over again. Once a day at least. It centers you. Each time you have a light bulb moment you didn't before. It is a plan that takes a while to truly get, if ever....as I said, increasingly light bulbs go off as you read it and are ready to understand a piece of it.

Your Taker is pissed big time. I see that in your posts and yet your Giver is giving him more power than he should have at this point having put you into the pot of stew of betrayel.

Get money, asked for lovingly in your name only. "I feeeeel so (bat eyelashes) vul-ner-able right now. I neeeeeed funds that only I can access if the worse of the worse were to happen to me(eyelashes batted, gulp and heave of womanly bosom thrusted)"

Tell him you aren't selling the home afterall. It is your haven for now and perhaps in the future you will reconsider (womanly vulnerablitily shown softly but firmly again)

You will not continue with the pastor for now. He doesn't help you work through your own issues (bat eyes here, a bit of a quivering lip)

Meanwhile, move toward a plan B, unbeknownst to WH.

Find a IM. Write a gorgeous love letter (B letter), get funds set up, call attorney for advice over the phone. I got lots of free phone advice, didn't pay a cent as I 'shopped around'. Lots of a attorneys have a few free moments and love talking about how it works and want your business if you need to do legal stuff.

You can get through this. Stop having expectations from moment to moment in anything but YOU. You need to expect that you can get through this situation with grace, with strength and it WILL truck on into the future and YOU are there for YOU.

"mom"

You have alot of advice to digest but if you find you are in panic mode and angry its time to tell him to leave - ignore the realtor request and any other financial request. If you can somehow squeeze him for a "security" fund right now do it!

although it sounds like he has taken control from you re $$$$

Take deep breaths when you are angry before speaking!

You have minor children. Nobody (judge) is going to make you sell their home. He's in for a big wake-up call. Get yourself to an attorney to reassure yourself of the rights you have.
What state are you in?

Ha. Waywards are stupid.

Send back: I'm not moving. Don't need a realtor...

agree with marital, i wouldn't send that letter to daughter. i was just picturing her helplessly crying while reading it. i say a journal is best.

Mom, both of your daughter's parents appear to be dissolving in front of her eyes when she gets these emails from you. Please don't confide in her again, okay? SOMEONE has to be strong, here. Your H isn't going to cut it. It's going to have to be you. Be that strong mom.

hi, quick update, calling p i to get gps on vehicle(ws's honey back from out of country work jaunt but may leave after thanksgiving holiday again)
up and down rollercoaster ride from h * l l with ws. some really good moments lately(bible devotion, discussions, met with christian mentor couple from church who help couples in crisis) some really bad times-asked ws to show me "new" checking acct, he refused. however, he has paid bills twice with me sitting beside him, transferred plenty of money into our family checking. downnote: on sat, mail delivered a beautiful jewelry catalogue from city jeweler i have never heared of-ws's name and our address on back. not a random mailing, so with p i's help, have to figure out how to get info about jeweler(did ws buy something? i can't imaginen he'd sign up on a mailing list and it's a jeweler close to his office, not close, but nowhere near our hometown) so that was a real blow and sort of a nail in the coffin for me.
i have calmed down considerably emotionally, pouring it on thick, but anytime i "mess up" according to ws, he says we are back to square one. i told him he has impossible expectations and i cannot be "perfect" all of the time, that this is a work in progress. since ow has been away, definitely seen a change in ws, coming toward me a bit, less angry(at me for ruining his "plans"?)
he still says, "i haven't left....yet". i have been working on ME, first therapy session, reading books on boundaries, abandonment, MY issues. ws no longer going to wacky therapist of his own. i asked him on sat a.m. to please move out-he refused. i found out our best friend lent him thousands, so the money is in the bank for him to move out, so why won't he? must be my girlish charm! down 29 lbs, 2 sizes, lookin' like a fine mama and parading it around for ws to take in sometimes
overall, i am feeling MUCh stronger and know that i have NO control over ws's behavior or decisions. i do feel kind of FREE and hope this feeling continues. if ws leaves, he leaves. i am hoping gps provides info.
ow is back from other country, will see how ws's demeanor is the next 3 days before the holiday.
oh, last friday night he went out for drinks with co-workers. i said fine and said nothing sat when we discussed. he thinks he needs to have more than superficial relationships with co-workers in order to have a "strong and performing team" ha! whatever.
my college son(who is a total honey) is home through the new year-more help with the younger kids, a little more room to breathe.
thanks for being here. needed that little break for reflection, prayer and myself

You are doing well. Sounds like you are getting the right ideas, information and help.

Keep reading and posting.

so i continue to NOT lb(mostly and ws came home from work tuesday evening, we had a date for dinner planned and quickly announced to me, "i talked to ow(or whom i suspect it is) and told her i wanted us to go to dinner with her and her husband". i said, "sure". he said "I want to put this thing about S to rest and if you meet here, you will see that there is nothig going on". so today i asked him to pick a spot we can meet...
so, gps goes onto his vehicle on sunday and he's home for the holiday weekend. i continue to try and meet his needs, he is doing ok, responding but not initiating anything(but he never really did before either). i still have a gut feeling about "stuff".
I swear i think i'm cookoo half the time-but then i think of all the strange facts and know i am not.
my neighbor(and friend)'s husband received the same jewelry catalogue so i guess it was just a local mailing...

ok, gps was installed last night. ws sends me email today listing the 17 things he has done to work on our relationship. mind you-whatever i do is discounted, if i commit one LB, he takes me right back to the starting gate and gently reminds me(because he doesn't yell anymore) that I SUCK.
i am ready to bawl. he has a blackberry and laptop password protected thru work-at this rate, i am never going to catch him. should i ask him to leave? i did 10 days ago and he said no, it would upset the kids too much(ha! the older 3 hardly speak to him and are so worn out from the tension in the house)
i don't understand-i don't think i am going to find concrete evidence to expose. what am i supposed to do?
i am too soft, ws controls....our conversations, how i feel about myself, how he is suddenly sooo much more in touch with his feelings.
why the freak won't he leave? cuz he has nowhere to go? so i have to live with this rat until we sell our home(which we are listing after the holidays)
i have read saa, i have read plan a, i am not that good at this i guess.
ws says he is struggling because he "doesn't feel close to me"...
i am tempted to stay the h*ll away from him. my nerves and heart are wearing very thin.
ps all a gps will do is show me where he's been. still big flipping deal.
we are seeing the christian mentoring couple tomorrow evening. it's worthless right? although ws and i were doing our daily devotional last night and i read from a book about having a hardened heart(which ws admits having towards me-the last 28 yrs sucked, etc etc)and now ws says he wants to fast and pray so he can forgive ME...
sorry i am far less articulate than some posters who mimic my thoughts and feelings better than i can myself. i feel like a gerbil on a wheel, getting very tired of going round and round and round.
someone please advise or encourage

so a few good days with ws. except for the same horse sh*t. met with our mentor couple from church-ws sat there and LIED aobut how great HE is and how I suck....hard to take, so i jumped up, got all emotional, and it was hard. later, we "made up" and continued to talk and also talked on wed evening a lot.
BUT last night, i asked him very civilly to put his blackberry and new droid phone down for friday evening and engage with his family(he had asked why the older kids hated him and i said they wanted to spend time with him and get his attention) he got very defensive and said "this is my job" i calmly suggested that he could put the phones on ring and if he hears them respond. at this point, he's got his blackberry in hand, we are on the bed, i said, log on and show me what's on it...he did, then i grabbed it, AND RAN. oh my, my hubby is a big ex-football player, i don't think he's EVER moved that fast! i ran into a bathroom by our office and locked it(didn't know you had to double click the lock) so he forced his way in pretty quickly(i'm 5 8, 170lbs, so not little but couldn't withstand his shoving) so he kind of wrestled me for the phone. boy, was i angry. he said it's the principle of the thing-that i should just TRUST him. i said i'm onto you buddy. i would like you to leave tomorrow. he said nope. we talked two more times. he retreated to bedroom and at one point i went in and said, there is no room for 3 people in this marriage. this has to stop. he vehemently denies, tells me i have trust issues, it's all my fault blah blah blah. later he told me he couldn't stand me and that he didn't want to be around me anymore. okay
i am going to plan D. the p i called today-wed ws came home early said he was at dr's appt but p i said he was somewhere else. full report tomorrow when i go out and about christmas shopping.
so, for me, ws has NO intention of changing anything and his pride and hatefulness towards me are too much. he is NOT going to change, just playing me to get through the holidays.
i found most excellent attorney and spent much of last night up pondering. God opened a couple of doors in the last two day and I am grateful for His faithfulness.
for me, being married to a cheat and a liar, well mine isn't one of those keepers-he has been an emotionally absent, emotionally abusive guy for 23years. the last two months have been a rollercoaster but i have learned things about ME and have been working to change them. I also will not have regret going forward with D. i also am starting to ponder if ws hasn't been a closet cheater for years(he travelled tons and for years, lived mon-friday in another city) ?????
you are ALL WONDERFUL and i am so grateful for the support i have received her. if there is some miracle, i will return, but for right now, i am on course to start the beginning of the end.
i am having surgery next monday so hoping to feel good by later in week and meet with atty.
blessings for strength, love and courage to all who sadly find themselves here. i hope it works out for you!

Your 'Taker' is mad. Peeved to the max.

Why don't you go to plan B and just go dark as you head towards a D.

Let me tell you this. Plan B, once you get over the initial angst is the place to get peace of mind.

You are in a big drama right now and plan B is an escape from that drama.

You will need strength no matter whether you plan B or plan B while you D or just D. You will need to work through it all and redefine yourself as you have started to do.

If you drop the MB plans now and get a D, you will have a lot of interactions with your wayward spouse that fuels more drama. It won't be as pleasant for you.It won't make him see his errors as a man either . It will be constant dueling spouses/exspouses.

but how do i get him to leave the home? he refuses! he borrowed money from our closest friend(several thousand) so i know he has it, and he said the other day, "i have the money to move out but i want to work on this"
i am so ready for him to go-how do i get that to happen?


thank you reading, for the encouragement. actually had a wonderful day with my kids(the ones not in school, went out to lunch, bought myself two yummy new bras). now, his possible homecoming is setting in...and i am getting emotional. will try and stay busy and happy

ps should i file for separation INSTEAD of D? a little confused but ws took the $(his paycheck) and now has it direct deposited in his own account. then he electronically moves money to me for each pay period for living expenses. i have sat here with him twice in last 4 weeks and watched him write out the bills, but if he leaves i am afraid he's going to scr*w me...

GET AN ATTORNEY.

I was nice to ws last night, very briefly. he asked why. i said because i love you.

this am, went into our bedroom(i sleep on couch) we chatted briefly, short story shorter-he is moving out on thursday, just left to go get lease. he said i' have to live on less a month(hard to do with 5 kids to feed!) he said he was advised not to tell me where he's going to be living? i held up well. he said after the "incident" on wed night(him chasing me with his phone) that he did not know feel safe, emotionally or physically, HA! he said he would be willing to see me at a counseling session or with our mentor couple(sounds like he wants to go DARK) so....
please advise, i am going to remain unemotional(no crying at least in fromt of him till he goes) i have surgery on monday, which he will not be a part of. i will have at least a day or two or recovery, then plan on attorney thurs or friday, probably friday as i would want to be here when he's leaving. he wants bedroom suit and tv in bedroom. he said he's not moving in with a woman! he said that .
ok, now what? i have to what? file for separation? divorce? i don't meant to sound dumb and i have read saa, but i need specifics. so we both go dark, and how does that save our marriage? he already hates me and is absolutely leaning toward divorce. i did say, do you know how much this(d) is going to hurt our children? he said yes, it's really hard. i could cry....
ok thanks, i am having company for lunch, a christian mission couple i sponsor who happen to be in the area-he probably won't want to sit down and lunch with us!

Is there a link to Plan B? what it entails exactly? sounds like my ws wants his own plan B-is that typical? i am thinking maybe 30-60 days plan B, then plan D. Will ask attorney....

The book Surviving An Affair describes plan B best but there is a little blurb about it here
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

there is much more to it though. Do you have the book? ( didn't go back through the thread to see if you do) The book is critical to the plan.

You plan A until you go to plan B
You have a gorgeous love letter, plan B letter you give as you go to it
and
go dark to him

go through angst in your own withdrawal from the relationship
and
find peace
and
perhaps a spouse who is willing to re-commit to the marriage, perhaps not
only time will tell. Lots and lots of time.



By the way, his appearing to plan B you is not unusual. He will need to go in hiding to hide the affair still. He will ramp up his affair and try to make that relationship work as he leaves the marriage and family. It won't be as much fun as when he had two woman lovin' on him!

links to plan b love letters? so i can give him that as he packs his crap up and uhauls my 4000 bed(waahhhh) away to his loveshack?
thanks reading!
ps sadly, no matter what i say, i am wrong, so i am hardly speaking to him. he is soo p*ssed of at me that he is finally getting his way and leaving us..

some crazy stuff...
ws asked me when and what "we" want to tell the kids. i sat on the floor by our bed on two pillows, had a heart to heart, he cried, told me how he didn't want to do this(move out) how devastated he is, how there IS NO OTHER WOMAN, why don't i like him? on and on...
i don't think i had one LB! then he says, i just don't get you...after thursday(when he chased me after his phone). i said, i have moved on from that...
he is sooo confused- i kinda like it(where's the big cheesy smiley face?)

1) Do a legal separation.

2) Once that is done, and he is out of the house, go down and file for assistance.

Do what you have to do to see you and your kids through a Dark Plan B.

You are starting to see the cracks, now smash the SOB, and free him from this evil, vindictive alien inhabiting his body!

Plan B letter from SAA.

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2421094#Post2421094

Mom, why is he taking the bed? He should only be taking his personal property until there is a legal separation of the marital property. I was asked once, when I thought that my WH was going to take the bed, why OW would want to sleep on OUR bed? I answered with, "She has no problem sleeping with my husband, she obviously doesn't care where she sleeps." I then remembered that we had a warranty on the bed. I figured they may try to exchange it for a new one. So, I wrote "Scotty loves WH 4ever" in black marker on the mattress and cut a small hole in it. WH didn't take it though, because I had packed up his things and put them on the porch.

I have not discovered concrete evidence of a, so write plan b letter without reference to it?

scotland, we have a beautiful new home-he claims it's the only thing he wants(bedroom suite) bed is massive, french and (laughing to self) feminine in a grande, dark wood carved kind of way. i think it is funny that my huber masculine ws wants it! also the thought of him wanting to bed someone else in it after all of the "memories" i am ok with it.

having surgery monday, wanting to see attorney by wednesday. will most likely file for legal separation.

thank you all! i need support and continued suggestions.

Didn't he take pictures of the furniture? Possibly she picked it.

I would call and get a restraining order after his physically handling of you.

Let them know your afraid. He can't come on premises and take the bed.

so when ws went walking this a.m. i found deposit to new swanky apartment(indoor AND outdoor pool, gym etcetc) i am always shaken when i uncover new info...
so ws comes home, we talk in bedroom. i am sweet, dressed for church, gorgeous (wink) and accomodating to him talking. he gets on bed, shows me that he has been up most of night looking up "mid life crisis(which i suggested) and depression. i said, "i never said you were depressed". so he doesn't think it's a mid-life, i just act all agreeable. then he says, "DO YOU LOVE ME?" i say "of course". he says, "I don't want to move out. this is so hard on me etc etc". i had woken up at 5am, sat in the still of our home by the Christmas tree, thinking and praying, I had emailed him a sort of plan b letter, telling him i love him, i want nothing more than our marriage to heal, that if he must move out, he must, that i wouldn't tolerate sin that would damage our lives, that i am going forward in my life, working on me, etc. but he had not read it.
he began to cry hard(um, almost never cries, at the birth of our kids, that's about it) he said, ' i am so empty inside". i said, "this is about God AND you". he says, "are you going to love me? are we going to have fights like the other night(the phone chasing incident) i said, 'I love you but we are going to fight, i am an imperfect human etc". he said, "you are so beautiful, i was watching you last night at toyrus(we took kiddies to check things out, verify lists) and you are just so beautiful. i said, "i'm great in bed too!" we smiled....he wants all of this reassurance. i said, in a month will you be saying you want out? he doesn't say anything...
so....fellow sufferers, is the guy getting a conscience? is he just afraid of being alone? what? what?
i went to church with my 20yr old, lunch at cafe, bought myself a yummy little jacket at a boutique, grabbed a couple of gifts for our little son at specialty toy store. ws was home, we texted and i requested him to start pork chop meal-he did it all! fed the little ones.
now he's napping. i am at peace. i am continuing with the tracker, that is a HUGE comfort. AND last night, ws said i could look at his blackberry? o, ok, after you ran thru the house four nights ago to get a hold of it?
typical wayward behavior before they leave? do i encourage leaving?
what's it all mean?

I suspect he is going to move out and is trying to make it as easy and guilt-free as possible. The deposit on the apartment pretty much seals the deal on that part. What you witnessed was your 'real' husband under all that entitlement, tugging at his wayward side.

I think this can be a good thing if you can do a bang-up Plan B. I think you've got the right stuff to pull it off.

stick to plan b

thanks my darling supporters
today, i had my bladder repair surgery(from having babies...) and i initially didn't want ws there, well he took me(said I need to be wtih my wife) and i told him he could leave when our 22yr old daughter got there after taking little bro to school. dd showed up, ws stayed the whole time...we talked some, he told me several times how much he loves me. also, still non-commitall although he keeps saying he doesn't want to move out. i say nothing. dd left to deal with other 4 kids for dinner etc.
in a lot of pain from saddle block, surgery and they sent me home all week with a catheter due to lacerations in my bladder(TMI-sorry) ws has been emptying my "bag"(tmi sorry) as i can't lean down to get it-it's on my calf. we played scrabble in bed, with christmas tree lit, we talked a bit, ate some m & ms...he tells me how beautiful i am(what a mess after a no hair wash, no make up surgery day!) i smile and say thank you. we started to doze off, him rubbing my hair, my hand on his hand...aaaahhhh bliss......NOT
i cried so much today(blamed it on the surgery) he didn't question it-i am one of those tough azz women, who delivers the 10lb baby, comes home, puts baby in bassinet, goes on with life. so this is atypical of me to want babied-but i am milking it and he keeps saying "i want to do these things for my wife". i am also horribly heartbroken still and vulnerable-the tears are coming no matter my bladder(hey, that rhymes!)
so, we shall see...hoping thursday comes fast enough for me(and my bladder)
thank you so very much!

ws was up at 4:30 for conference call-"she" was in outher country, voice is whiny and she's very controlling and bossy-so isn't that what he wanted to escape?
he had to shower with me and help with my catheter bag-was very nice and patiently dressed me, etc.
he said he wanted to get on the road(35minute ride to work) to do "soul searching". okay.
i hope he searches right to the kroger to get some boxes for his stuff. i am ready for it-if he's going to go, i really want it to be right now before my birthday, son's birthday and jesus birthday-lonely, dark, no holiday cheer. he can be the GRINCH alone!
i did not get flowers yesterday from ws. but sadly he sent them to one of his male co-workers who had a pacemaker put in a few weeks ago. so thoughtful enough for others but not for me(i know, he spent the day and night taking care of me but it still hurt me very much that he has NO intention of doing anything romantic/special for me anymore)-my two older sons(15 and 20) had this gorgeous bouquet of 2 dozen pink(my fave) and creme roses, cut too short! was soo touching and they were so proud of themselves when i came home from hospital. my best friend and her hub sent flowers card said "with unconditional love" as i told her i only wanted people around me who loved me unconditionally. felt so sex 'n the city when i read it
ws claims he has to pay deposit wed. paid 200 on sat, signed papers, seemed to still think he may be able to get out of lease? even joked about putting our 22yr old up there for the next six months. i had said, "you take 3, I'll take ". it also hurt that he got a 6 month lease and not a 3(said it was cheaper) whatever. i am crossing fingers he goes. ready for plan b, for ME, for some peace, for some of my own soul-searching.

I think a good dose of Plan B is just the right medicine.
Who knows what is going on in a WW's mind?

It certainly sounds like he is conflicted. But that does not mean he is conflicted over the right things. What if he is worried about what type of cake he wants to eat?

I think PB will give you at least some rest from this emotional misery you have been going through at his hands.

I hope you feel better soon.

thank you barbie cat,
am i supposed to coax ws to leave? what is my stand on this? i kinda want to help him pack
we are gonna be BROKE from this shennigan but the kids will survive on peanut butter and pizza right? ugh, i get so disgusted when i think about ws having NO thoughts into the kids' christmas(i asked for christmas money but he said he didn't have any-but he's got 5grand borrowed from a friend for his deluxe apartment and 1500 for an attorney) sickening
thanks honey!

Are you sure you are going plan b? If that is the plan, that is where you should keep your focus.

But I must admit, I have done MB, but I have not done a plan B in my personal life, so others experences are probably better than mine.

Then he is really helping you (seriously) by getting out. Many here can not get WH bunz out of the house with a crowbar. Have you read up on PB? Scotty has a great thread on this.

Is he still actively participating in the A? (sounds like)
He is not confessing? Sorry? Have remorse? Threatening you (with abandonment?)? Moving money? Borrowing without cooperation?

If so, then what are your other choices?

I don't think I have other choices. but he is the one waffling and I just wrote him an email, saying that if he doesn't go, in two weeks, he will be waffling again.
it's time-no, he has not admitted anything, i have not gotten any "evidence". i do still have p i and gps tracking. hoping that reveals something, especially after he moves
thanks for your thoughts and support...
the countdown begins

mominpink5,

Glad you are feeling better after your surgery, must have felt good having hubby look after you. I think you are right to think if he spends the holidays out of the family loop he won't like it.......
Just try to hang in there and Plan A as much as you can............don't worry about the Xmas gifts for the kids this year, I think if he moves out, they will know that this year might be different for them and believe me the gifts won't matter to them........just do what you can....................
I think your husband has to have a big change of life for what he is doing to really hit him hard between the eyes..
The time will give you a chance to get your bearings and to really think about what YOU want for a change............take the time to figure that out............
Changes are sometimes scary to think about but a blessing when it actually comes............
Hang in there, slow down and start thinking about what mom needs in this life......((hugs))

thanks jessi,
going to milk this recovery as long as my kids are willing to wait on me-yesterday, last night was bad, but heavy doses of ibuprofen are helping so much today. my 5yr old goes to pre-school two days a week 9 to 3, so this is one of those days and there will be mucho peace for awhile anyway.
you're right about christmas, but it's so ironic, ws is the "carnival dad" , the big show, you know? and this year, he could care less if his own kids get christmas. it's very telling, imo.
i wrote him an email, haven't sent it yet and don't know if i will just wait till this evening when he comes home and see what he says? i wrote him a more or less plan b letter the other day-was loving and appreciative. this one kind of says "go"
it's funny, he has a therapist, another male mentor, his attorney all telling him to leave...i have said, "what do you want?" apparently he doesn't really know...
yes, i didn't know two months ago i would feel this strong. but it's here and i am so grateful.
i am relying on my faith through this and He hasn't let me down yet.
thank you!

Ah yes. The "Everyone thinks I am a victim and I should leave your neglectful, abusive fanny" line. My personal fav-orite!

He is still trying to look like a marriage hero...the "last holdout" in the fake "save the relationship game" he is -playing in his head. How magnanamous of him.

When I hear this cr@p, I just politely ask him to refrain from such tales, and to think for himself. These people are just relflecting back the victim puke he is chugging at them.
They don't konw you. They don't know your relationship.

very foggy.

thank you.
just had an emotional breakdown. called ws at work, asking him to get a hotel tonight and tomorrow. i was fairly teary and he stammered a bit, but he was in a meeting and told me he would call me back.
i just want him OUT. i feel like sh*t and i want to recover from my surgery. i am sore and hurting and weak and vulnerable and i am too emotional of a person.
i want to puke myself. my older kids are hating their dad and he blames ME for everything....
i hope and pray tonite isn't a big blow out.
he IS going to take my bed, right out from under me...the attorney will LOVE that one!
thanks for clarifying what I already knew

fog talk when he calls. Also have the kids pack him a bag and leave it on the porch. Another idea is to call the police for a restaining order for him not to come as your fearful after your surgery, since he became physical with you last week. Just a thought, takes the power away from him leaving. He has to.

(((mom)))) you can do this. be calm. there won't be a blowout, that takes two people. the good people at MB are here for you.

um, i was lying bed reading my Bible out loud around 1 something. he came in to our bedroom. i said, what are you doing? let's talk. he said, you told me to move out. i'm moving out. i said you got an apartment. YOU are the one leaving. we talked briefly. we both cried. he told me this is killing him. took a good bit of stuff. i suspect apartment is ready but he didn't tell me. i don't know?
he said he's not filing for divorce or separation. he said he loves me and is devastated, cried real hard, said i'm sorry.
my 20yr old came home with 15yr old, told dad off.
nothing like recovering from surgery.
i feel peace. i do. maybe ws's dark place will bring him back? only God knows.
i need to take care of me this week, my sore poor tummy and my pee bag(sry tmi)

edit

Hey Mom,
Hubby is feeling exactly what you want him to feel, how do they wake up if they aren't faced with the reality of the other life.............
This is when the soul searching takes place it's all part of the over all plan, he has to hit rock bottom to understand the scope of his decisions......good for your kids. My were like that too, they didn't even answer their dad's texts or voice messages, to this day he will comment how they will do things for me but not him, or he asks me to ask them something because they listen to me not him.
You just have to have faith Mom.........patience and strength...........
He will do the right thing if it's in him, if not you are going to enjoy the peace you will have.
(hugs)
Hang in there with your health, sucks when you are down for any reason........
I made it through and my hubby had his affair while I was on a chemo drug, you have to dig deep and be proud of who you are and your worth is the most important thing........

you're a doll! and i appreciate your words of strength and encouragement. sitting here on bed with 20yr old talking plan B-hubby texted me saying i love u. i am very sorry about everything. just so we are clear i am NOT filing for divorce i just need a break...
okay, you just earned your break
time for me to fly(well to empty my catheter)
ps you sound very strong-i am too. lots of struggles in my life. God hasn't left me yet

just got back on yesterday and got caught up on your scene -
I did plan B for 10 days (NO CONTACT) when I kicked hubbie out - then sent a heartfelt email - he was home 4 days later and
never saw OW again - he too had a lease - 3 month that I signed
on his behalf and only lost $250 -

This will be a turning point he sounds realllly conflicted and will have some quiet time while he watches my favorite movie "Its a Wonderful Life"

thanks goldengirl,
i am sitting here bawling my eyes out, as my catheter fills up... hee hee
he called my 22yr old daughter to tell her he had left-then he told her he was out apartment shopping for towels, etc(apparently he's already in) and KNEW that he had somewhere to go. i am just crushed. he stood her throwing stuff into garbage bags, all along acting like he was going to a hotel.
my older kids are in various stages of anger, grief, acting out towards me tonight. the two little ones(5 and almost 7) have no clue, but ws is home so infrequently that they haven't even noticed!
i am at plan B. if he contacts me, no contact in return right?
thanks for the encouragement

Mom,
don't cry, you have to be strong to pull this off, Plan B means No Contact, you have to do it for you, ignore the texts, phone calls.......no emails, let him go through the holidays alone............sit the kids down and talk to them about the changes, tell them it has nothing to do with them, tell them you both love them and that you are trying to get through this the best way you know how........dont' leave them out of the loop they will feel anger, disappointment with both of you........give them hugs and let them cry if they want.........hell you cry if you want, it's a painful situation for everyone, the last thing you want to do is hide or not tell the truth..........
hang in there..........
jessi

Have you decided that your Plan B has started? Do you have everything ready? Did you give him the letter?

Until you have everything ready and give him the letter, you are in Plan A. When that letter is given, I would suggest that you BLOCK his phone calls, texts and emails. You should even unplug the answering machine. You should tell the 5 and 7 yo about Plan B. Explain it to them so they won't let him in or hand you the phone if he asks them to.

so i woke up in middle of night(empty my bag :), go into office, read, read, read on computer, get up to walk back into bedroom, notice someone walking up front walkway. it's ws(its 4am). i opened door, he needed his belt. i stayed away for a moment but then came into his walk-in to see what all he was taking. he grabbed some "stuff" and more clothes. he said i'm really sorry. i said nothing.
i could vomit. must get in touch with attorney today. called 2 yesterday. i feel weak and pathetic. want to scream, cry, rip out this catheter.
so easy for ws to go on with his life...
an aside, my 22yr old(who has hated her dad always tells me and 20yr old that she wants a relationship with her dad now) i feel very uneasy about it. she has always been very close to me, but the timing is so strange?
i feel like I am the alien now....
i did give ws a letter a few days ago-it was very much a plan B letter(i think) telling him i love him, etc. i don't think writing anothe one will make a difference?

I just realized that as I stood here, in pjs, a hot mess, catheter hanging from my leg, ws walks into our home, in the middle of the night, very self-assured and confident about HIS NEW LIFE.
this is not going to culminate in a recovery-he has a huge ego, he is going to LOVE his new life, without ME. he already told me that he really likes work now(used to hate it-ha!). he thinks he can do whatever he likes and it is ok.
i have to move on. i am heartsick and funny last night i was ok. whatever.
he is getting everything he wants. i get clean-up
ok pity party over

Do you only have the bag temporarily because of your surgery?

Focus on that bag. Anything is better than focusing on your WH. If you're allowed to, find a way to dress it up.

I am not trying to make light of this serious object, but trying to help you find something new to focus on.

the bag is temp till friday, but cumbersome and icky. i am sore in my abdomen and of course the stress of all of this BS is just wearing me down.
i see now that getting ws OUT of your life is a good thing-this is so painful. wow. and i thought plan a hurt
if i was up and about, i could focus on lots of things-christmas preparations, housework, paperwork but i am kind of stuck till i feel better, and my restrictions are fairly vast(no stairs, no lifting, bending, squatting, etc) i am a DOER so this sitting still is super hard.
thanks karmasrose. i appreciate anyone being "out there"!

so i just find out that ws spent over 100 bucks from the checking acct money he gives me now to get some things for his new pad last night....
so i am going to go broke financing his BS....
this is so bizarre, ridiculous, entitled on and on

Mom,
Get yourself to the lawyer, separate your bank accounts.......you have to start protecting yourself.
Just take care of yourself right now.........dont' think about him, that's up to him now........
Stay dark, you need time to heal and pull yourself together, focus on the holidays as much as you can..............

This is why plan B is so helpful to BS.

In his FOGGY view of the world, there is nothing good that is going to come to you from listening to him. He gets;
#1. Drama. #2. a "fix" of seeing you/kids #3. a chance to see if you are weeping over him. #4. Re con as to what your next plans are.

My question;
What positive thing did YOU get out of this interaction?
What is the upside? As long as he has the wayward mindset, you are not helping yourself by seeing him.

This is just my opinion. I am sorry that you are going through this now. JT has some spot on advice

mom,

Get some sleep today - you cannot think clearly if you have been up all night - this surgery may be a godsend since you can
work on coping with a great excuse to stay in bed and on the couch just dont start watching lifetime - get more books to read on this sorry subject - I read at least 8 the first week but of course that was at 3am when I couldnt go back to sleep!

mom,
I just read through your post after you posted on mine. PLEASE go to plan B ASAP. Also, get a lawyer ASAP. Take it from me, this is the second time WH (?) has put me through this. If I had done a plan B I am sure I wouldn't be in the stitch I am now. I will be going into plan B very soon. I am where you are, no damning proof but all the waving at me. DON'T take him back until he agrees on your terms both in words and actions. Stay strong!

thanks letgo,
so he sent me 6 emails yesterday(ignored them) called and asked to pick up firewood he sold for our son(he cuts wood, we have no woodburner) i said, ok, then he said, and started to cry, "i think i made a mistake. i don't want to be away from you. i am so sorry" i said, 'i simply gave you what you asked for. i wish i had done it sooner". he said how sorry he was....
then he shows up, i hide in our bedroomm, he spends time with our 22yr old, then asks to talk to me, i walk into the office and say, "did you file today?" he said, "no, i did not and i am not going to file". he started to bawl like a baby and told me how much he loved me and the kids and wanted to come back. i was very kind and comforted him. after 40minutes of him being rather emotional, he said i had better go deliver that wood. i said, "then you're coming back?" he said, " i don't know". then i got all p*ssy and said, "well i will go ahead and file then". oh gosh, it's a ride from H E L L. then my 15yr old tells him off, he and i go into the laundry room and hug and he tells me again how sorry he is, how much he loves me.
so, yes there was an affair let go? my p i called yesterday, she tracked him for a week-all he did was apartment hunt. his suspected honey is out of country so i don't know what next week adn beyond hold when she returns....
i am so sick, and confused, and still trying to heal from my surgery.
last night ws and i talked-he cried adn cried. this morning, he cried and cried over the phone, said he'd been up all night. so, this means NOTHING? mid-life? depression? guilt? what does it all mean?
am i a fool for still loving him? he said he was going to try and get a smaller apartment(i guess meaning cheaper and doesn't expect the kids to be there)
tell me, is this what cheaters do? he seems so sincere? i am going to vomit, i swear, over this...
this a.m. he's coming for bed, etc. should i be out of sight?
i have read the book-i know about "dark". am i supposed to let him hit bottom without me? am i supposed to have these feelings of love and protection for someone who is hurting me?
both of the lawyers i spoke with said a legal separation is worthless-file for divorce. I don't want a divorce, so what do i do?

Mom,
Your husband does sound like he is confused, ask him what he is willing to do now. You tell him that you need honest from him about everything and see what you find out............
Tell him if he is serious about not wanting to end the marriage then figure out a plan together that will keep both of you safe.......
Honesty
Truth about the affair,
Transparency with comp, phones, all whereabouts, all communications....
Counsceling for both of you. Maybe the kids as well.
Meeting each others needs.
If he still is going ahead with the move, let him, don't be there, don't help him, don't make it easy for him, let him feel every rotten thing he will feel during the process, let him figure out having an affair isn't worth losing everything you hold dear to you..............
Good for your kids, they are strong, don't you love, they just say what they feel, they don't filter like we do..............but remember they are hurting to. Lots of communication with them........okay.........why is there such a rush to file, just figure out the finances and come to an agreement there, and forget about filing for now.............
Yes protect yourself from all the pain he continues to send your way, Plan B is for you.................
If he is serious about not wanting to leave his family he will come up with a plan.....

Warning I am not good at these.

He is NEVER going to miss you with all this drama going on.
You are only making this worse on yourself.

IF he was so sorry, he would not have taken his (your) money away and would act like a stand up husband and father.

He would not have rented an apartment
Gotten an attorney
Had this "relationship" with this other woman.
Apparently blamed you for everything.

He would quit telling you with just WORDS that "he does not want this" and he would, by using actions show you what kind of H he could be.
Period.

You have an excellent set up/shot at a SOLID plan B. Right now. Today. Never going to get better than this.


A. Before the holidays.
B. At his behest - he rented the apartment-- you did not force him to do anything.
you look innocent.
C. Your family is solidly behind YOU right now. Use all this sympathy to your benefit.

Weeping around the house "hugging his photograph and weeping into his left behind socks" is NOT going to wake him up.

I believe the MB plan B is the best shot you have at saving this M.
Call Dr. H if you can..

Remember; WH has left the M. He is foggy. He is thinking only about himself. Everything else is drama.

Please protect yourself with a dark plan B.

thank you both so very much. i am really needing a help focusing on what i need to do(plan B)
thank you! it's time

Well, I am glad that you did not take my 2 x 4 the wrong way.

I really believe this is the only way to save this M.

Even tho I never did complete a PB, I have read about many posters who have not done a proper PB, who later regret it.

You only get so many shots, MB is the best thing you can do.

Have you posted your PB letter? Many here will help you.

Ditto!
Mom, you know I am right behind you (literally) My WH has said he is done, he said he is looking at buying a condo. I found the "offer" on a condo 2 miles from here in is bag this morning. So I am working on 2 plan B letters. One with OW mentioned (if I can find solid evidence) and one with out. I was where you are right now 2 years ago and here we go again. I SHOULD have plan B'd. DO IT! From your last post you have seen that you can't do plan A anymore. Your taker is po'ed and that is why you LB'd. DARK PLAN B DARK PLAN B DARK PLAN B DARK PLAN B DARK PLAN B.......

Mom --

Plan B is not letting him in the house in the middle of the night to get his belt.

Plan B is not accepting his phone call after 6 emails.

Plan B is not comforting him for 40 minutes while he cries about missing you.

What he wants is to be able to come home and talk to you. It relieves his guilt. He wants to know that there is still a "chance" even though he's moving into an apartment.

And YOU GAVE IT TO HIM. Now its safe for him to go do some more apartment shopping and setting up his new life, because he knows he still has you as an option! He hasn't pushed you too far yet!
YAY for him!

Is that your plan?

No, it isn't! Because you have read MB and you know that Plan B means that he needs to WONDER if he hasn't pushed you too far, and he'll never know for sure, because he isn't allowed to talk to you, email you, stop by the house.

And for your own protection, you need to not see his activities. You don't need to know he's buying towels -- because its just another dagger in your heart. We're trying to protect your heart. So that in the event that he finally pulls his head out of his [censored], you will still have some love protected for him.
If you watch him, and interact with him, you will be continually hurt and your love will be depleted. There is no recovery then...

Come on girl. Tighten up that Plan B.
Where is your letter? Where is your intermediary?
Get those locks changed and an attorney to protect your financial interests.

uh-huh.

uh-huh.

Watching a BS fail at plan b is akin to watching a bunny run into a buzz saw. Every time the bunny thinks the saw will not hurt it.

But we all know. As long as we are dealing with a foggy WW...

Nothing good will ever come out of it for the bunny. IT is an unfair match.

Over and over again.

mom,

barbiecat is giving you great advice - you can plan B without filing or even meeting with an attorney - try it NOW!!!!

ok, i get it i get it

i will post my plan b letter later. off to get my catether out and celebrate at lunch with my boys

It's been HOURS. Where is that PB letter? Please. Do it NOW. You really DO have the best opportunity RIGHT NOW to get this PB SOLID and most effective.

I sent this via email to ws on sunday(he would have read it on monday) not a pb letter? please advise(probably not a pb letter eh?)

I woke up in the middle of the night, thinking and thinking about our situation. I felt peace and God in my midst as I sat here, cuddled up alone by the Christmas tree. I sat and talked to God quietly, waiting for him to speak to ME, telling ME what it is He wants from me in all of this.

I flipped through your Bible and I read the notes on the bottom and the promo-pages as they are very easy reading and I am always looking for something that speaks to me.

I put the tv on and tried to watch religious television-nothing too great on at 5am. Neck pain, but no pounding migraine like yesterday, shoulders are throbbing, the tension is deep and unrelenting in my shoulder blades. Tummy is rumbling from the late night lasagna.

I started dabbling online-looking at my marriage website and another website on midlife crisis, more of the same reading. Nothing new or jumping out at me

I sit here and think about you and me, about our recent intimacies-how we have shared and talked and communicated, and how warm that makes me feel. I think about your inability to reach out to me, to want to touch me, hold me, love me. I think about my grief over these last two months and how much it all has hurt me, to the core, and yet I am still standing. I think about my relationship with God, how He has drawn me to Him, in a way I didn't know before.

I mostly think about how much I love you, and the fact that I believe in my heart that together, we can have a better life, a great marriage, a beautiful relationship. The only thing standing in the way right now is YOU. You are hesitnat, untrusting of my intentions, somewhat disbelieving of the changes I am making. I cannot change you, only me. I see and feel the potential for a tremendous change in our relationship-but you have your own agenda, one that does not include me in your life.

I am going to give you that. You are hesitant to leave our home. It IS going to hurt our kids. It is not my choice or decision. It is yours. You have talked to and received guidance from others-you are leaning towards this decision of leaving. IF you leaving will help YOU find what you are looking for, and bring you back to your family a more committed, loving and devoted man, then I realize you are doing what you must do.

If you are leaving to explore, to play single, to pretend you are someone other than yourself, then you will not have a wife or family to return to.

I am not in support of you moving out of our home, and disrupting our lives like that, but you are confused and looking for SOMETHING that I cannot give you, convince you off, or make you do. Staying here, married to me, in this family, must be YOUR choice, your decision. My desire is to be married to a man who delights in me, in our life together, in our time together, in our closeness. I want someone who is fully committed to ME, to meeting MY needs, with selflessness and no resentment. I have different needs than you, that's for sure, but my needs are not right or wrong, just different. I refuse to go on in a life where my needs do not count or matter, where I am sacrificing and not receiving. That is not what I want or deserve in my life.

I have grown to love you more in the last few weeks, although you have hurt me terribly. I see that you are a good man, that you have a sensitive heart and that you want to love. I don't know if you realize that your greatest opportunity for real love is right here, and it's me. We have built our life together, our memories, our history. Even though our past marriage was not the best, we did it together and we persevered through so much hard work and challenge. We did it! We didn't throw in the towel. We tried to give our family our best. Now we have uncovered many problems and weaknesses that have led us to this place. They are all avoidable, recognizable and not impossible to change. Given our upbringings, we have done much better than we should have!

I love you , I need you as a partner, friend and father to my children. I want you, as a lover and as a companion. I want to know you, to know your desires, thoughts, dreams. I want to help you make them a reality. I also want you to want the same for me. No holds barred. GIving of ourselves so that we feel oneness and deep love for each other. I am so ready for that, but you are not ready for that yet.

So, it seems that you have to go, on your own, upset our apple cart and family(because it will) and "find yourself". I cannot stop you from your own journey of discovery. I want a whole man, one who can love, accept, forgive and care for me, without reservations and without conditions. We are not there right now. I hae tried to show you my best. It becomes skewed with my worst-that is me, a whole person, warts and all. I will continue to learn more about me, to grow me, to love myself, forgive myself, accept myself. The end result will be a woman who is capable and ready for real love.

I want that man who receives my real love to be you. I love your blue eyes when you look at me intently, I love when you share your inner self with me, I love your manly exterior, I love your generosity. Those tihngs and more have to come from you willingly and when you are ready, I am praying that you will share all of yourself with me.

I am going to let you go, for now. I am going to pray for you to know God better in the next few weeks. I am going to pray that you don't fall into sin that can't be taken back. I am going to pray that you learn how much your kids want and need you as their father, as their friend(the older ones). I am going to pray that I will not harden MY heart in this process and love you less for leaving me and our kids. I am going to pray that you will come back to me, with an open heart, ready to love and to give yourself to me. I am going to pray for the outcome that I have always wanted-that you and I will be together, will love each other so much that nothing will ever separate us again. These will be my prayers.

Hmmm. It's a nice letter, mom. It's not a Plan B letter, though. Was that your intention, that this be a Plan B letter?

kind of but it's not so how do i do this? write it now and email it? you know i have no proof of a, right? he has not admitted anything right?
help me....

so i revised a previous letter, added some stuff. is this ok? i did not mention a persay, as i have no evidence...

please advise, thanks

What I am about to say comes from my heart and it is the most difficult thing that I have ever had to do in my life.

I love you with all of my heart. Even with all that has happened, I still consider you the love of my life and I still believe that you are the man I want to be with forever. I am still so very emotionally and physically attracted to you, and I still believe that we are meant to spend forever together. However, every time I see you or talk to you part of my heart is torn because I want so much for things to be different. I want so much more than you are willing to give to me right now.

I want you to know that I am so sorry for my part in creating the environment that helped to make this situation possible. I deeply regret that I did not give you the time, attention, and affection that you needed to be happy. I am desperately hoping that one day you will forgive me and allow us to create a new future together. I understand your needs better now and know that they are a priority in order to make this relationship a successful one.

During the past two months, I have been learning what a marriage should be and I have tried to show you love, attention and affection in the time we have shared. I have learned so many important things about you, your needs and what it takes to have an intimate relationship together. I know what is needed to make our marriage a happy, loving and supportive place to be. I have made so many changes. Some you may have noticed and some you have yet to discover. Most importantly I have learned that there isn�t anyone or anything as important to me as you are. I shared with you that I realize that the �pecking order� of our family must change, us first, kids second. I understand that this will ensure us a strong, loving relationship which will satisfy both of us and give us the love we desire from each other.

Whatever problems we had, I am confident that we can overcome them and that we can create a new life that allows us to spend time together meeting each other�s needs so that we can both be happy. I imagine a new life together, enjoying our time together, spending time together, sharing each other�s interests, and making new memories. Some of our needs seem so trivial-you want me to watch tv with you, I love when you go to the grocery with me. But those are things we can do very easily and often to strengthen our relationship. Just being near each other is a true expression of love and commitment to our relationship.

I have tried to connect to you even under these extremely difficult circumstances and I treasure all of the time that we have shared together. Some of our time together the last few weeks has been the most intimate of our entire marriage. I will never forget those moments. However, the current situation has become too excruciating for me to endure. At times the thoughts are unbearable. Yet I still have hope that one day we can truly recover the good times we have had and create a new life together that represents total commitment to each other, caring about and meeting each other�s needs, protecting each other, sharing our feelings, complete honesty, and spending time together.

So I ask you to please understand that I need to protect my feelings for you so that when you decide to give our marriage a new chance, I will still love you and want to try again. I think having no contact is the best way to create some distance and space for reflection about our relationship right now. I say this with tears in my eyes because this is not what I want. But knowing that you are so conflicted about being here, or being somewhere else, is destroying the love I have for you.


I want you in my life more than anything...but I want all of you and I want you all to myself. I feel that there is a force pulling you away from me, from us and it is so very painful. I realize that this break that you asked for is going to determine a lot for you, for myself and for our family.

If you decide that you want to work on building a new relationship with me, I promise you that I will leave the past behind us. God�s grace has given me the ability to look past our difficult relationship and see the possibility of an incredible future together. I ask you to do the same. I hope that one day soon you will decide to allow us to begin again.

I am going to continue with my counselor, trying to figure out what makes me tick, and how I can contribute to our marriage in a positive, healthy way. I fully believe that God is here in this with me, with us, and He can do anything with this relationship, helping us to build it into a marriage that will fulfill both of us and will be a beautiful example of commitment and love to our children.
I loved you when I married you. I continue to love you to this day. I will love you forever. I am praying for our marriage with hope and with love.
_________________________

okay, also we live in another state and do't have a go-between like is recommended.
ws just sent an email regarding "stuff" laundry soap,a sport coat, etc.

just answer the questions?

ooooh boy. Nice, but NOT a PB letter.

But I have never actually delivered one, I will leave the more sucessful PB'rs out there to help edit.

One thing I do know that someone with WW thinking (from an A or MLC or EA - whatever) There is #1 thing you can count on. (are you ready for this? It is going to hurt...)

WS do not really, really give a rats patoot about your feelings.
The are so self involved they can not/will not be able to feel your pain (tho they do a great job at faking it)

For you to spend time trying to educate/teach/describe/ learn-um good about what life is like for YOU right now (what you are going through) = pointless.

Trying to guilt them (with god/children/your pain or even a sense of justice) is not going to work. Only a repentant WW mind can allow or deny the end results of their actions.

From what I know PB is a love letter that clearly states your boundries re: situation and conditions for reconcilliation.

It does not apologise for setting boundries, advises them of an IM. Read the IM thread, and do not stab your IM in the back by talking to WW w/o IM.

It also shows the way back.

so, i copied this from a previous letter and you're telling mme it's not's a plan b letter? please help. i don't understand...i thought i WAS sharing my feelings of loove for hiim? no i am not?
i don't have much time. i don't have an intermediary. i just don't....
i am doing the best i can. please advise.

Think now. Who do you know that may be willing to help you on this? I mean really brain storm and ask you older children for ideas (do not use child as IM)

(Without and IM, PB does not help you, because you are constantly going to be triggered by his emails. texting, calls and visits.)

There will be more help here shortly.

i read of people who have to correspond with their ws...we are new to state, NO family here, NONE. no close friends...i can put the two little ones in teh laundry room where ws can pick them up for visits, etc. so i won't have ot see him.
what is the point of all of this? with someone who lies, and believes he's entitled to this, and has CONVINCED other people(christian mentor couple, therapist, his atty) that I(cap I) am the bad guy, the devil. what is the poinnt?
isn't God the only true inter-vener in this? i have read the book-my ws has NOT ADMITTED TO a, nor have i found proof. do i assume and act like he has anyway, and incite him further away from me?(he gets furious when trust issues come up-says i am attacking his integrity) etc etc...

You need to have a plan. The reason YOU can not be your own IM is the triggering. It is not about him it is about you. It is putting a "stopper" on the LB w/ds.

It is to give you peace with the drama. It is to shore up boundries and to let your H decide if he is going to stay a married man.

Your H is already gone. The M you had is phhfft. Is there a new life for your M? I hope so. but this "daddy drama" is only hurting yourself. Read the other threads about PB. Have you done that?

It destroys your own LB. If you want to follow another plan, who ever your read about, that is the way you should go.

But it not the MB way. There are reasons there are rules, not suggestions. Just like you are doing right now, you are looking at all the grizzley details and destroying your M.

Get out of that mindset. Stand up for yourself. I do not know anyone here who worked as their own IM and had a good result. (others?)
Have you read the other threads about plan B? There are some tremendously strong stories out there.

No God is not the only interveener in this. There are things you can do to help yourself.

take a step back, read some threads and learn.

mom, Plan B is intended to cut off all contact with the wayward. My concern with putting the kids in the laundry room, etc, when your WH comes over is that he's two feet away from being back in the house and in your company. There's nothing to stop him from waltzing right back in the house whenever he needs to get a 'dose' of you.

Is there a family member (in-state or out) who would be willing to be your go-between for communications via email and phone? Pick up and drop off arrangements can be made that way. Is there a neutral area nearby for pickups and dropoffs? A restaurant? Public library? Mall?

Mom,
Have you seen the movie Madagascar? Is soon as I saw this post I thought of this line from the movie. "Smile and wave boys, smile and wave." He thinks everything is going to be great and he has thought of everything. You know he forgot about some major things, like fuel (in the movie) you are the fuel that helped him keep going. Close the gas station. Don't open it until he comes begging at the door, all a mess after walking 10 miles. Make sure he doesn't have a gas can in his hand, that will only be enough fuel to last him until the next time he runs out of gas.

I would like to add, do not let him trickle his stuff out. If he is gone, ALL his stuff is gone. If he leaves stuff there it is an opening for him to stop by to get something. I have been gathering WH's in the different area's of the house so it is ready when he decides to move out. I will make it crystal clear that this is my home, not his storage facility. He will have his own home and that is where his stuff should be. When he babbles about me being vindictive, selfish not thinking of the kids etc. I will tell him he has chosen to leave the marriage. I need to take care of myself and heal. I need to take care of me so I can be a great mom to the kids. They deserve that. I really don't think he realizes how much crap he has. That is going to be an eye opener (and a back ache) when he has to move everything.

I am not an editor, but I gave it a shot.

I believe a PB is a love letter that clearly states boundries, explains the reasons for, and the conditions you need to see before spouse can return home.

Your origional letter is good, but I get the feeling that you are still apologising to him for his actions. stop that.

Your letter was gorgeous. Since you emailed it to him, consider it part of your plan A. In the book Surviving An Affair, it is said that letters are a good form of communication to waywards. Let's say that email was such.

Now, I couldn't find a link to the plan B letter in the book but I would follow that letter for your actual plan B letter. Plug in names that are appropriate in your case and basically follow that sample.

It clarifies the road back to the marriage for him if he ever is able and chooses to take it. It has love letter written all over it but guidelines to recover. It states your boundaries which are crucial to being in plan B. That comes in handy for WH and for you. You both will know the score. He will try to press boundaries and you will have your IM or you yourself if cornered will gently but firmly refer him back to the boundaries of stated in the letter.

I recommend trying to network for an IM and a convenient, trustworthy person to be drop off and pick up of kids.

You need a good support network for when you are in plan B. You will have lots of emotional space vacated by your WH that will need to be filled for your own strength of spirit.

Consider that an important aspect of plan B........finding new people to bond with and spend time with and to be part of your future (with or without WH).

barbie cat,
here is what i added in that spot-ok?

If you decide that you want to work on building a new relationship with me, we need to have clear agreement about our most important needs, our willingness to meet the other person�s needs and our commitment to our marriage. I need honesty and commitment to this relationship before we can attempt to come together again as a couple.

i liked your edits but know that this letter was "copied" from somewhere here, i changed the wording to suit my writing style a little adn added some stuff. but it was another example, not my own

wrapped some christmas presents, sneezed without peeing myself(i know tmi, but that was what the surgery was for! yay! and looking forward to a good afternoon.
thanks to all-i need the support and it does make sense. i am kind of dense as my emotions cloud me a lot. i don't mind a smack or a slap if it'll help the cause!

he sent me info about apartment, location, perks(two pools, jacuzzi, pool room-sounds very bachelor-y) but no apartment number. got a garage for his vehicle his car has not been in a garage for 23 yrs! must want to hide his honey's car while she visits...darn that tracker that will remain on his car....tsk tsk. i am not as dumb as i look!

Shoudn't the letter also state no further contact with OM?

I just thought your letter sounded like you were apologising to him for your actions.

You have nothing to apologise for. Not at this point.

He needs to clearly be told what the boundries are, your intentions to create a happy marriage and what he needs to do to garner YOUR acceptance of his return.

What you write is up to you.

Also, conditions for return need to be tangeble things.
like

Your name on all accounts,
all passwords to email, phone and the like.
COMPLETE demonastrated transparency.

Absolutely no contact with OW (EA, PA or not)

Something like a few months councelling with the Harlys or another marriage positive counselor. BEFORE he comes home.

i am confused...i thought a plan b was a lover letter, no busters? to the ws, i copied this from a fellow mb'er. not my own work. can you clarify a little more? i liked your editing but no, i want to clearly state my own desires and boundaries. is it impossible to do without concrete proof? he goes ballistic every time i mention another person? please help

would it be better to email or to put it in envelope? sorry, these details overwhelm

oops. sorry, just got your post...

ok, you spelled it out. thank you

Here is the letter sample from the book

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2421094#Post2421094


If you don't have the book......get it! (got mine on amazon or you can get it from MB directly).

added:

commitment to our marriage. I need honesty and commitment to this relationship before we can attempt to come together again as a couple. I want a marriage of transparency based on trust and honesty. I want to have all of our accounts be joint, I want to continue to be accountable for not using credit cards (both of us) and discussing major purchases and financial issues. I want to have access to your emails, cell phones, as you will mine, at any time. I want to find a joint counselor who can help us through our differences and help us develop the skills to have the marriage we both say that we want in the future. I have told you before my boundaries for a healthy relationship and I believe that being transparent and truly open is the only way to have the marriage that I wish to have with you. I believe that radical honesty is going to pave the way for the relationship we have talked about the last few weeks

much bettah.

My 2cents as a forum member:

I am thinking that letter is too wordy. Waywards won't 'get it' with so much verbage, no matter the beautiful crafting. They need concise statements.

The one in the book is less wordy but says it all. You can't get much better.

Clear, firm, loving. You just plug in your own names and tweak it with info that personalizes it a bit.

Gee, so many pages of posting and yet there is still no definitive proof of an affair. Has your PI found any evidence at all of an affair?

I have to say that your postings are confusing and often contradictory. You love him, but he�s been a bad husband for your entire marriage. He says you�re controlling, you say you�re not, but somebody had to take charge. He doesn�t let you have access to his phone or email which is wrong and de facto proof that he�s having an affair; he wants access to the family financial files and everyone tells you to deny that and to immediately withdraw all of the money, isn�t that wrong? You want him to be more involved in the children�s life, but resent it when he talks to your older kids. He says you have turned your daughter against him, you say no, but then send a letter that was entirely inappropriate to send a child about her father, especially with no proof. He says that you have fault in the marriage, you �on day 5 of this ordeal, tell him what specific grievances i committed and needs i did not meet, and ask for forgiveness� yet during a counseling session in which he says what HE perceives as your faults you get upset because it�s all lies � so the only faults that you have are those that you tell him that you have?

Do you see what I�m trying to say? Who knows, perhaps he IS having an affair?! But what if he isn�t? What if all of this drama is about a guy who realizes that he spent his life working all the time and has lost his family? That all of his efforts really haven�t been appreciated and he�s essentially correct in that he�s been nothing but a paycheck for a while? Maybe he wants you to stop him from leaving, desperately wants you to tell him that he�s valued for more than what money he makes and that it isn�t too late to change that. Perhaps it IS a mid life crisis after all? Try to look at things from HIS perspective and try to understand where he�s coming from � because I have to tell you that a LOT of men feel varying degrees of what your husband is saying. Maybe he just wants you to show him that you value him as a person � and that�s gonna take some work on your part, because after reading your thread, it is readily apparent that you don�t do that. You came here to save your marriage, right? Because anyone can go to Plan D or Plan FU without help from anyone here.

Women often complain about husbands who think that their job is all they should do and are not involved in their family; men often complain about women who think that once they have children that they don�t have to work on being a wife anymore � in both instances the neglectful spouse usually says something along the lines of �life got in the way�. No, life didn�t get in the way � lack of effort did. Your husband is finding out that he did this at his own peril. But I think so are you, and one thing that you should be sorry for is how you have essentially alienated the older kids from their father. He may be at fault for being minimally involved in their lives but you really helped the process along. They have no respect for their father because you have let them know that they didn�t have to.

So whether he�s cheating or not, your game plan is essentially the same, you need to decide why you want to save this marriage and actually decide if it�s a marriage or a travesty and WORTH saving. If you REALLY want to stop him from leaving, you need to do a real plan A, because you haven�t even done anything at all consistently that would make him want to change his mind, except tell him he needs to leave because he�s upsetting the children � that will work really well. To this date, your husband hasn�t done anything concrete against you, hasn�t moved out, hasn�t stolen your (as in his and your) money, and hasn�t filed for divorce, to me he seems like a guy that has realized that he�s now on the downslope of life, has a family that displays contempt and precious little love towards him, and doesn�t know what to do about it or even if anything can be done at this point. You say you�re the leader in the house? Well be a leader now and show him it�s not too late � cheating or not the end result will be the same.

BTW, a bit of advice, and guys chime in here, when a woman describes her husband, and the first thing out of her mouth is that he�s a good provider, that�s a code that guys know means that the husband is basically a walking paycheck.

AJ, I think she did find out and hired a pi.

I don't like your "walking paycheck" reference.

In many instances, men who earn more or spouses who do, feel a bit entitled to their ema's and behaviors, as mine did. I did not consider my ex a "walking paycheck" and I don't feel M.I.P. does either.

Well,I read through the whole thread, didn't see where her PI found anything on him. I guess if I'm mistaken she can set me straight.

As far as the walking paycheck, I didn't say anything at all about men feeling entitled to do anything, all I said was that when a guy hears a woman describe her husband and the first thing out of her mouth is that her husband is a good provider, men take it to mean her husband is a paycheck first and a man secondly. Ask any guy that you know, I would venture to say that most will agree. Just because women don't like to hear it doesn't mean that guys don't feel that way.

As far as what MominPink really feels about her husband, it is hard to understand. The thread is pretty dramatic or even histrionic, but I realize a lot of her thread is emotional venting and was kind of fed by advice like "clean out the accounts before he screws you every way but sideways" where what we should have been advising consistently is to calm down. get the proof and decide where to go from there. Yes, I know, easier said than done.

well, i don't any of this lightly and am prepared to do what i need to do. that is why i am here.
my husband has been a very emotionally withdrawn, at times abusive partner. has he gotten better? yes . has he learned to control his raging and anger? yes. his drinking? yes, lately. is he intrinsicly a good guy? i believe he is.
no, he hasn't taken control, of anything, other than his career, our entire marriage. i have story after story when we were much younger when i asked ws for help and he could not help me-car broken down, decisions. i HAD to take charge, he was too busy building career. he is really good at what he does-expert, and i know it drains him. have i lost my focus? focusing too much on raising a big family alone while he worked/travelled? yes and i owned up to that. when this started, i admitted my grievancesa and asked for forgiveness. he said no. i forgave the past, looked at ways to improve the situation. i am so far from perfect, or from knowing what to do. i have prayed and re-focused my energies on my marriage in the last few weeks. ws still has reason to not want to be here. what are they? i don't know. but he is suddenly sneaking around, lying, doing a multitude of things out of his character. he goes to work and comes home-what he does in a given day is up to him, just as i am here with the home and kids. his recent ambivelence, coupled with my memory of his email encounter with an old college friend that he left on MY computer, made me skittish and suspicious. i am human and want to protect what is mine. we have had intimate conversations with each other about HIS needs and what he wants from this relationship. he wants financial accountability from me(which i have given him now) and yet no accountability to me, for his stuff. i don't think i am wrong to expect the same consideration.
as for our older kids, he alienated himself when he called them names, ignored them, screamed at them. i have also worked in the last few weeks to help him re-establish some connection to them, which i feel as an adult, he is capable and responsible for. no one is responsible for MY relationship with anyone except for me.
i do see good in this man-he has revealed that to me. i believe he is a classic mid-life crisis, making crazy decisions and choices which are affecting a lot of people. i love him and i believe we can work through our difficulties and develop a stronger, more loving healthy marriage. but he's the one who left-not me. he wanted out. there are reasons which i don't understand.
i appreciate all input-does not offend, i am always looking for the answer that will bring us to a place of resolution, peace and love.
back to work on letter...

Mom, I didn't read all of your PB letter because IT WAS TOO LONG. Then I saw that you were ADDING things.

You need to just use a short letter.

If you don't have evidence of an A, then you of course would not mention anything about that, but what you WOULD mention are the things that you would like to end before he can come home.

See, you say he has been abusive and has drinking problems, then THOSE things are like the A in the PB letter.

You do want the PB letter to be a love letter to your spouse but it is not meant to be every once of love you have poured into it. Waywards have short attention spans.

You CAN'T go into Plan B WITHOUT an IM. Did you get one yet? There is no point in sending a letter that states that you will not have any contact but then still have contact.

Re-word the Plan B letter from SAA to suit your sitch and then post that. Do it AFTER you have figured out a IM and a different way to exchange the kids. How old are the children anyways?

yes, i am trying to calm down . yes i am invested in trying to save my marriage, to build a new, better different one.
i continue to be open to suggestion and do realize in all of this, that yes i am inevitably going to become stronger and better....at being ME.

MIP: One thing I learned when dealing with my xwh was to be succinct in everything, talking, writing, actions. I learned the hard way (much like what is happening with you) that he wasn't concerned with my well-being, our child, or anything, muchless money, and you must understand the mindset of a wayward spouse.

It's pretty much all "me me me" all the time, 24/7 when they are in this bizarre taker mode. So a short and sweet plan B letter is needed, and stick to the way it's been shown on MB.

I can tell everybody this. Despite my having divorced my xwh, his present W (one of 2 of his once ow) told me when they were first having trouble about 2 years into their affairage, that she found a secret hiding spot in their home, and in the place was a cigar box. Inside the cigar box was a letter sealed in a plastic baggie and a simple gold ring.

That was my plan B letter and my wedding ring. She found it (the affair wife) and fell into tears, and realized at that moment what she'd done, and where she was going with her affairage imho. She called me crying and asked if I could come get it. I told her no. That it was his, was given to him, as it was once (the ring) a gift to me and I remember having my friend/intermediary tell him (even 2 years after our divorce and his affairage I never really had any contact w/him but sparse) that she found it and was snooping (he he).

So one thing made it through the fog. It was my plan B letter. Now granted, I did put in my simple, old plain wedding band (not the diamond one or the e ring, heck I'm not crazy). He kept it all the years and when I finally remarried this year, he told me he was truly happy for me, that he had majorly screwed up, and that he wished he could have changed things when he had the chance.

MIP, YOU have a chance now to change things. That means doing the MD PLAN NOT YOUR PLAN OR A MODIFIED PLAN. So go with what works. We know this works. And btw, my ex was one of the worst MB offenders ever. Get smart. Go send the PB letter and do it now. And follow through with a smart plan B. I did one and I was in the exact same situation you were (new city, no family, small child).

AmericanJin: I'm sorry, but it is no secret around here that a bs is a bundle of emotions and you really do not know how to perceive a wayward spouse when it happens to you. Like MominPink, I would vascillate back and forth between anger, love, sadness, and then back around again. I had to focus on the legalities and making sure my home was secure, bills were paid, and that he paid child support. I had to. Because a wayward will NOT DO ANYTHING for another if they can help it. So maybe in some aspects my ex was somewhat of a talking wallet to me during some days, but imho, it is only the OTHER WOMEN who look at a married guy as a talking wallet. At least the ones I've heard of do that.

Mom, I noticed that we posted at the same time. Maybe you didn't get to see my post.

Mom, Scotty is the Queen of Plan B around these parts now. Please listen to her.

Mom, how are you doing?

ditto. How are you holding up?

oh thanks- ws has not told me he may not pay the credit cards. i am seeing attorney on thursday.
well, actually, i am getting angry, so it's a new phase for me.
ws told me on the phone(nope, no plan b yet) that after i told him i spent 3 bucks on a pr of jeans(had a coupon) that i shouldn't "be out spending money when I(he) don't have any money for food". my oldest told me he has beer and chicken in the fridge...
you are all RIGHT about the drama though. he told me he's "miserable" and wants to "see his kids everyday" even though he doesn't call everyday. i don't trust him, his motives and i have to protect what little we have left(equity in home and two retirement accts). my mom said it best-ws is doing what he wants to do and i am doing what i HAVE to do.
thanks for your thoughts-frankly, i am thinking plan D is where i am headed.
ws lies, lies, lies. i am tired, lots of responsibilities. don't know if i can ever forgive this horse sh*t!

ps i have not completely left the building yet, but seems like i am headed there...

update:
p i called and said tracker is missing off of car. this is same p i who hasn't gotten anything on ws. ugh. now i owe her 500 more bucks. what a waste of money. so she assumes ws found it? although he hasn't mentioned it? i am so confused.
also, i met with the wife of the female mentor couple we met at church today. she told me ws has talked to her husband often via phone for spiritual and emotional support. she said ws adamantly wants to restore our marriage. she said he talked to them on sunday at church, was waiting for me(i had told him we weren't going as too many of us were sick). then i had invited ws to a church christmas show, he said no, he had to go into work?
i feel like ws is snowing this couple. and told her as much. she said she has gut feeling for people(they have been counseling couples for a long time-her own husband was a 20yr porn addict) and that ws says how he wants to fix this and restore our relationship.
since i have NO concrete evidence of EA, and now i have NO way of finding out, well, looks like i am in emotional limbo until ws decides what he wants to do
ws also told the christian mentor guy that when we talked the other day i told him all kinds of guys were hitting on me(i wish! and that seemed to upset him a lot. i said, well, i may have mentioned the 80yr old guy at sam's club and made a joke, but um, nope, no "hits"....she also said ws is very depressed and miserable in his new life. is he just fishing for sympathy?
more wayward behavior? or what the heck? prepared for two by fours, i really am

Are you in Plan B, mom? You should not be having these conversations if you are.

Yes. Your WH is snowing people, trying to make it look like he is just trying soooo hard.

Get your friends to trach your husband for free. They can follow him.

MB, nope she isn't in plan B. She WAS making plans for it but doesn't seem to have done it yet.

Mom, you already know what you need to do so DO IT.

Ahhh. Gotcha.

MIP:

I have to be honest. I used a PI to catch my xws and they caught him so easy. They didn't use a tracking device. Old fashioned gumshoe detective work following him. Followed him right to a casino hotel with the ho.

Is your PI a real PI? Do they have abilities to do something other than place a device on a car?

I am not understanding how you cannot get real proof of this ema.

And I am on your side but please, WHAT plan are you in?

honestly, i don't know what plan i am in...things are settling in, don't want to file but watching with ws does with the finances, hence the continued contact. i do see how plan B is imperative and want to be there before christmas.

p i did track-had info for week one of tracker. suddenly tracker is missing when p i goes to retrieve and charge it???? i am also thinking new p i is needed.

i am over-doing it post-surgery. going to spend weekend with feet up. i think taking weekend off from stressing over ws's stuff. he's gone, i am here with my wonderful kids. appreciate the break?

I know you're hurting and wish you to get well soon, but girl time is ticking and the PERFECT time to get the recon on WH is at Christmas, as it seems (just what I went thru) that NYE is a perfect WS holiday.

You want to slam him with the truth and hit him when his heart might be a little more open and tender...Christmas. Great time for ultimate exposure.

My PI found all that was needed. I paid them in person, they went out and got all the info, pictures, and recon in about 8 hours.

What a good PI needs from you: picture and all info about WS tag on their car, make and model of car, color of car, a recent photo of WS, their addresses to places they frequent, and if ow is at work or they are claiming they stay late at work, address of work, and of course, as much info as you can give them about the ow.

What was funny was I had no idea who the ow was. But I found out in 8 hours and also found out his x business partner even went out to dinner with ws and ow.

This time of year and with the economy, a good PI can appreciate the business. Get on it! They do the hard work thankfully, NOT the betrayed spouse.

I wonder how ws would like it if he comes home, and there's a massive exposure just days before Christmas, home to a lovely but recovering wife and a loving wife, kids, his parents, your parents, family friends, and those who care and he finds out he is at risk of losing all that? You could gently take him into another room and show the proof of the ema, let him know they all know of the ema, but weren't thankfully shown the photos. Then walk him out into the gathering of family and friends and have an evening of love and smiles. Oh yea, and have that mentor couple there too. If it were me, (I had an especially hateful ow in the picture) I'd expose to her family. I even exposed to ow's elderly and ill grandmother to make the impact as traumatic as the one she left on my family.

Be smart and calculated in this. Now is a good time to do this. You could get this all going. It is time for your WH to see the irrefutable evidence HE IS CHEATING and that the world knows what he is doing. Time for a little light shed onto things and truth to be revealed.

My PI btw, gave me evidence right before Christmas, and I used it 100 percent. And yes, it did work for a time on my x, Darth, one of MB's baddest baddie WS's. At least he couldn't hide from his life anymore or his actions or spin them.

I think this might be just what you need. A massive exposure disguised as a holiday party.

And yes while my wxh still had another ow, the evil ow with her claws dug in, the one who took my son and wh on a trip to disney (my x lied about it, said it was a boys' trip), who is and was beyond evil? The one who went into my home after I moved out of town to see if I had left anything behind (on orders of my wh)? The one who went places with my son when I didn't know she existed?

I brutally killed that affair and did a nuclear exposure on her that still echoes in TN until this very day,over 7 years later. Poor xow, she can't even have a public FB account, she doesn't have her phone or address listed anymore, and when she actually married her moneybags (she's a golddigger) older guy (like way older than us) this year, she couldn't even put her picture in the newspaper to announce her marriage to him (she was the ow in that one too). Why? Fear of further embarassment and exposure. It's as tho that ho-bag is non-existant in some aspects and I like it that way!

It must suck when you're the op. And trust me, you have to make it suck to be the OW or the WS (just make the WS it is done all in love and in all of the glory of plan A).

hi,
just checking in to say hi and catch up on familiar names. i found a midlife crisis forum that really identified ws persona since this all began.
ws has been out of home since dec 7, have to contact over young kids, i am filing on monday. he took over 6500 out of a retirement acct, just purchased a big tv and wii for his apartment, told me he has no money to pay my bills(credit cards-furniture, family expenses) so have to protect the kids and myself from financial crisis. ws is scheduled for huge bonus this month-i am sure he's hoping i do not file so he can hide away/squander $. prayed and prayed so that I am not just filing over the $
ws emailed me this week, requesting suitcase and polos for business trip. olater in week, emailed he's going to boston-well it's one of the coldest cities this time of year, we live in cold midwest and ws wears sweaters everyday. strange how his polo shirts will suffice in bean town in the winter.
i am still emotional but getting stronger and stronger. this has been worst thing i will ever go through(i think)
hoping those of you following MB principles get your wish-i am still very thankful i found this site, as i can look back on my plan A and know i did a good job(still do) and it refocused me on the present, and future, not the past(which is where ws lives these days-rewriting our history into the dumpster)
blessings to all who are sadly here

[/quote]

This is called blame-shifting. Again, your WH chose to have an A.

Interesting side story: When my FWH was starting his A with the office secretary, he took her to lunch. She spent a lot of that lunch trashing her H and her M. My H told her that our M was "a pretty good marriage." That was in September.

By January, her BH was really putting the pressure on both of them to end the A, but he was doing it anonymously, and OW was suggesting that I was the one sending threatening emails to them. My H responded in a note "MaritalBliss knows nothing about what's going on. If she did, it would be over - it being our marriage, which is basically over anyway."

Funny, how we went from having a 'pretty good marriage' in September, to having a marriage that was 'basically over' in January. The only difference in our marriage during those months was that my H chose to have an adulterous affair. [/quote]

WOW... sounds sooooooooooooooo familiar to me! WH and I went from a decent marriage in Jan/early Feb (went out of town, worked out together on a regular basis, were taking a finance class together) to "I need to focus on me and my feelings and during this time, I don't think we should have sex. It will alter my true feelings"... only imagine what I knew that meant. IT was revealed in June... Funny how quickly these things develop and how they rewrite your history to make everything soooooooooooo horrible.

thanks neverlosefaith,
ws moved out dec 7, on dec 12 my bday card said, "i love you very much, more than i ever thought i could love anyone". on dec 15, supposed ow returned from 4-5 week stint abroad-i swear by dec 20, ws HATED my guts and has ever since...
i continue to plan A him, and it has been very rewarding. i am (generally) not bitter and we share a lot of kids(5) and the two youngest will be with him at times(15yr old ambivelent and struggling-only seen dad once since he left). i believe God will work this out for good. i believe ws is hiding something. i believe ws loves me, but will he ever come back? i have no idea.
how are things going for you? oh my your babes are little.
i am sorry. sending blessings your way!

Thanks for asking. Things are going ok...dysfunctional but ok. Yes my children are small and the OW also has small children about the same ages as well. She is now divorced (that took like 1.5 mos) Christmas was hard but I thought that I saw some breakthrough... he cried on Christmas Eve when he dropped the kids back off (well, we actually both cried and hugged) and then he cried again when he dropped the kids off again on my son's birthday. I am desperately trying to figure out what GOD wants me to do but every time I say I am done and am ready to cash in my chips, I get another sign to keep going. My oldest hasn't prayed for his dad to come home and work on stuff and did for the first time in months the other night. That same night I was ready to say enough.

I went to send you a private message but couldn't... said that yours is turned off.

Hope you are hanging in there!!

my pm is turned on, try again

gonna enjoy some pizza and wine with my oldest and her friend from work(waitresses! she's a grad student, my girl and so smart)

missing my babies but eyes are crossing from tiredness

coached a really good friend who has been married to a habitual cheater/extreme narcissist for 30 years. she said i am giving her the courage to make her move soon.

you will know when to do what you need to do-i would not have had a deadline except for the financial. i cannot/won't let my ws walk with 100K plus to fulfill his new life-can't do it. mama gotta feed these kiddos(yes his bonus in a couple of weeks will probably be that big or bigger) maybe a boob lift? hee hee

blessings coming to you from snowy-ville

pm me again. see what happens

Are you in PB, or plan D or plan FU?
I agree, file to protect $$$,

But if you are in MB mode, you need to stall proceedings.

Sorry to hear you had to go to this step.

trying mb mode as best i can. mostly nc except for kid stuff and the occasional text from ws saying "hi thinking about you" =torment! ha!
plan D it is-i have to file to protect the $, he's too unpredictable and with 5 kids, momma gotta feed em
thanks barbiecat!

This sounds like Plan WTFAREYOUDOINGTOYOURSELF!?!?!?!?

Unless, of course, Plan D is the ultimate and only goal, at which point... bravo.